Greetings, Sanderfans and Cosmere Chickens! We welcome you to this week’s read-along discussion for chapters 3 and 4 of Wind and Truth. We saw a LOT of speculation last week about the in-world book, Knights of Wind and Truth. Namely, who’s writing it? We’ve also been seeing various predictions about who Kaladin is hearing in his thoughts. There’s been so much in-depth discussion, and it’s so exciting for us to read your theories and wonderings. Please keep it up and you might see your comments in a future installment! And now, let’s dive into chapters 3 and 4!
Paige’s Summary and Commentary
This week, we get to sink our teeth into chapters 3 and 4 of Wind and Truth. Once again, we’ll be peeking in on what’s going on with Shallan and Kaladin, and Wit will make an appearance in both chapters. Wit’s appearances are always interesting! So let’s jump in and see what’s up in Roshar!
Chapter 3 is titled “The Cost of Heroism.” The epigraph states that “[t]he Wind told me, before she vanished, that it was the change in Odium’s vessel that restored her voice.” It seems obvious that the author is a present-day figure, writing this during or after the events of our book, Wind and Truth. And that they will eventually learn about Taravangian taking up Odium’s shard. I look forward to seeing your thoughts on this, readers!
The chapter focuses on Shallan, who is still at Lasting Integrity. She’s atop the wall of the fortress and leaves Testament to herself to chat with Pattern. They talk about Veil, and Pattern states that she’s gone but Shallan corrects him, saying that Veil is still a part of her, she’s just moved “to the back of the wagon.” Radiant, on the other hand, is still at the front of the wagon, still apart and separate.
Shallan and Pattern talk about Shallan’s childhood, the bits she’d been resisting remembering, and she thinks about how she had bonded a spren, which her mother had not liked. She remembers the man who came to either hurt her or to separate her from Testament. Then how her father had tussled with the man, and how she defended herself against her mother, who came at her with a knife, resulting in her mother’s death. Of course, we all know how badly this event traumatized Shallan, causing her to go for quite some time without even speaking.
Shallan also thinks about how Testament was her friend when she was a child, and how she thinks that their bond may not have been completely severed. This is super interesting to think about, and there’s a lot of speculation about whether Shallan will be able to do for Testament what Adolin has been able to do for Maya.
She stops to talk with Adolin, Maya, Kelek, and the seon that Mraize had given her, now freed from its box. Well, not to the seon, but to Wit, who is talking to them through the seon. Shallan likens the seon to a kind of spren and I guess that’s the easiest way for her to make sense of it, since it’s a thing from another world. Shallan marvels again that the small man with Adolin is the Herald Kelek; he seems unusually timid and unsure of himself.
Through the seon, Wit says he’s worried and, as for me, it’s rather unsettling to know that Wit… WIT… is worried. He’s talking about the contest of champions and how it’s to take place in ten days. Adolin is sure that Dalinar will be his own champion, and Shallan is surprised that the contest is taking place so soon. Yeah, girl… so are we. Of course, traveling home through Shadesmar would take weeks, but Windrunners are on their way to fetch Shallan and Adolin that very day to return them to Urithiru.
Shallan asks Wit about her brothers and if they’re safe (they are), noting that the Ghostbloods—whom Adolin knows all about after he and Shallan had a heart-to-heart—will be after her and those close to her. Boy, lemme tell ya… Adolin is destined for whatever the equivalent of sainthood is on Roshar after calmly accepting the revelation of all of Shallan’s secrets and outright lies. He is truly the best boy.
Shallan tells Wit about Formless, that it was a part of her that could do terrible things and, that although she walked away from it, it’s still there inside of her, that she still has the capacity to do terrible things. Wit is really the sweetest when it comes to Shallan. He tells her the following:
“If it weren’t for that capacity, then what good would choices be? If we never had the power to do terrible things, then what heroism would it be to resist?”
Oh, my poor feels. Some of my favorite Stormlight bits have come out of interactions between Shallan and Wit. He just handles her so gently and it’s a side of him that, frankly, I adore. Shallan asks Wit if it’s her destiny to have to kill everyone that ever mentored her and, after more reassurance, Wit tells her that he’s proud of her. Silently, both Radiant and the part of her that is still Veil repeat the sentiment. ::sniffles::
Once the conversation with Wit is over, Shallan tells Kelek that she needs to know about Ba-Ado-Mishram. Reluctantly, Kelek tells her about how they captured Mishram in a flawless gemstone and hid her prison in the Spiritual Realm. Shallan wants to know how they did that and Kelek grows agitated, saying he doesn’t know, that Melishi hid it.
Once he leaves, Maya mentions having met Kelek before, in the past, and that he’s gotten worse. Shallan wonders how they could take Mishram’s prison from the Spiritual Realm before Mraize and Iyatil get to it, but Pattern says it’s not possible. He describes the Spiritual Realm thusly:
“It is a place where the future blends with the present, where the past echoes like the striking of a clock. Time and distance stretch, like numbers infinitely repeating. It is where the gods live, and it baffles even some of them.”
Sounds like a piece of cake! They’ll just somehow pop into the Spiritual Realm, somehow find Mishram’s prison, and somehow pop out again. Easy-peasy, am I right? When Mishram was imprisoned, something happened to the spren bond, and they think that if they can find her, then the deadeyes might be restored. Pattern is ambivalent, however, and retracts his comment from earlier about Shallan not getting him killed.
Chapter 4 is titled “Listening.” The epigraph mentions the Wind again and how she often spoke to human and singer and stopped not because of Odium, but because people began to fear her, or began to worship the Storm, instead. I’m really curious as to what the Wind actually is. Is it literally wind, or is it an entity that was on Roshar before Odium, Cultivation, and Honor arrived? Looking forward to more epigraphs in future chapters. Note that we didn’t get these in the beta read, so they’re new to me, too.
This chapter focuses on Kaladin and we travel high up in Urithiru with him and Syl, to where they’re scheduled to meet with Dalinar. Kaladin finds Wit reading a book and, once Wit finishes his page, they engage in conversation. And a rather unconventional music lesson.
There’s the usual Wit banter, which can be enjoyable but, I imagine, makes some of you wish he’d just get on with it, already. ::giggle:: I mean, I adore Wit, but he does tend to prattle on.
He offers Kaladin a crash course in reading music, playing a flute that apparently isn’t as good as the one that Wit once gave Kaladin, which was lost and then found again. Kaladin painstakingly learns to read the music and how to hold the flute. After an hour, Kaladin can sort of play a line of the song Wit is trying to teach him, which is what Wit played for them back on the Shattered Plains, the story of the Wandersail. But Syl recognizes it as something else.
“Long ago,” Wit said softly, “that rhythm guided humans across the void from one planet to the other. They followed it to reach your world.”
“One of the rhythms of Roshar,” Syl said with a nod. “Made into a song, with the tones of the gods.”
Iiiinteresting, don’t you think?
Kaladin thinks back to the night Wit played that song for them and says it seemed as if the song came back to them, echoing somehow. With a little prompting from Wit, he realizes that the wind was listening. He asks if the wind is a god and Wit mentions the Old Magic and tells Kaladin to listen to the Wind when it speaks. I find it interesting that sometimes the word wind begins with a lowercase letter and other times, an uppercase letter. I hope we can figure out why as we go.
Kaladin and Wit then talk about the relevance of music, the purpose of art, and we get some more lovely little tidbits of conversation from Wit. Then things grow somber, with Kaladin talking of Dalinar’s worry about the coming conflict and Wit grows serious. Kaladin says it seems as if Wit thinks one of them won’t survive; Wit says that he wishes he was optimistic enough to think that one of them would survive. And I have to tell you, that leaves a knot in my stomach. When Wit gets serious, it kind of scares me.
Wit tells Kaladin that Dalinar will send him to Shinovar to get Ishar’s help with the contest of champions, but that it won’t work out the way Dalinar hopes…but that Kaladin needs to go anyway because this is the last part of the journey. He then tells Kaladin to practice with the flute until the sound returns to him, “because that will mean Roshar is listening.”
It’s at this point that Wit admits that something is wrong and has been for several days, but that he can’t figure out what it is. (Of course, we think—based on the epilogue to RoW—it’s that Odium stole some of his Breath which contained memories.) He speaks of the Passions and how they’re horseshit, that if something bad befalls someone, then by that belief, they just weren’t passionate enough. It’s the first time I think we’ve seen Wit truly angry… angry enough to produce actual angerspren. He then basically says that they need hope, and if that’s not worrisome, coming from Wit, I don’t know what is.
Eventually, Dalinar pops out and asks if Wit is done with Kaladin, telling us that the whole time, Dalinar was waiting for them to finish outside so he could talk to Kaladin.
Kaladin pretty much asks Wit why he didn’t get a story and Wit tells him that maybe this time, he would tell his own story… and then he was gone.
Tell his own story… hmm… interesting choice of words, don’t you think, Sanderfans?
Please share your thoughts on these chapters in the comments… speculate, ask questions, give us your theories, and let us know what you’re hoping to see in future chapters!
Lyndsey’s Commentary: Characters and Relationships
Let’s start with our analysis of the chapter heads and epigraphs, shall we? For this week, chapter three begins with Kalak/Kelek, Herald of the Willshapers, in all four spots. His aspects are “Resolute/Builder,” and his role is “Maker.” (It’s also worthwhile to note that Kelek is Restares, the nobleman who was meeting with Gavilar and Nale in the prologue and the judge of Adolin’s trial in Lasting Integrity.) He actually physically shows up in this chapter, which is probably why he appears in the chapter arches.
For chapter four, the character portrayed in all four arches is what we call the “Wild Card,” but usually he means that Wit/Hoid will be making an appearance. (Please note that I am emphasizing usually.) In this instance, that does seem to be the case.
The Wind told me, before she vanished, that it was the change in Odium’s vessel that restored her voice. I wonder. Perhaps it is the new storm, making people begin to reconsider that the wind is not their enemy.
—From Knights of Wind and Truth, page 3
This leads me to believe that our mystery (presumably Windrunner) author was Kaladin, since we’ve seen Kaladin hearing voices… But are they the same voices? If our mystery narrator is someone else, is there someone ELSE hearing voices? Hearing the Wind speak to them? And what do they mean by “the Wind”? A windspren?
I have read that in the ancient days, the Wind often spoke to both human and singer. It would then mean that the Wind stopped talking not because of Odium, but because of people who began to fear her…
Or to worship the Storm instead.
—From Knights of Wind and Truth, page 4
Well, now we have a gendered pronoun for the Wind. And the following chapter answers a lot more questions about this!
Shallan
Lots of interesting stuff going on in this chapter in terms of Shallan’s character. Sanderson’s doing a great job of recapping past events for those of us like me with poor or fuzzy memories. We’re also getting bits of insight into her state of mind regarding all these profound character revelations. She, like Kaladin, is doing surprisingly okay—a nice change, for our poor little Lightweaver! She’s reincorporating her alternate selves, but maintaining a bit of separateness. I particularly liked this quote:
She didn’t deserve hatred, but understanding.
Very moving words for us all, I think, and a hard pill to swallow when you’ve grown so used to hating yourself that others’ hatred is taken as a matter of course. Loving and forgiving yourself is the first step towards healing—and Shallan has so many different facets of herself.
Shallan and Adolin
As usual, Adolin proves himself to be the Best Boy in regards to his relationship with Shallan. For someone who was a notorious playboy when we met him in The Way of Kings, Adolin sure has proven himself to be a kind, gentle, and understanding partner.
Shallan and Wit
These two have always had an interesting relationship, and that’s continuing here. Whereas Wit can be brusque and rude to others, he’s almost always kind and gentle with Shallan. Sometimes it seems as though he has no patience for others who have endured trauma (cough Kaladin cough), but Shallan continues to be the exception.
Maya
Maya’s healing is one of the more fascinating things to happen in Rhythm of War. I sincerely hope that we learn more about her character over the course of this book, and watch her grow and heal even more. I’m still on the fence as to whether or not I want Adolin to become a Radiant and Bond her, though. I like that he’s the one single solitary member of the Kholin family to be a Normal Guy.
Wit/Hoid
The Ghostbloods want something extremely valuable, and you have the key to it standing with you right now.
And… poof, off he goes. Leave it to Hoid to be unnecessarily vague at a time like this. Sometimes I think he’s physically incapable of just giving a straight answer…except when he’s not.
“Yeah,” Wit said softly. “I feel it too.”
A straight answer. Those were always disturbing.
Even Kaladin recognizes it!
Usually I keep my comments strictly to character matters, but I really have to point this one out:
“Ah, Wema,” Wit mumbled, turning the page. “You’ve finally noticed what a catch Vadam is? Let’s see how you screw it up.”
I find it HILARIOUS that Wit’s reading the same Alethi romance novel (specifically, An Accountability of Virtue) that Ardent Ellista was reading way back in Oathbringer. I probably wouldn’t have picked up on this one if I hadn’t been so amused by the original mention of this in-world book (and the existence of Austen-eque romance novels in Roshar at all).
In the Kaladin chapter, we’re seeing a very stark example of what I mentioned earlier in Shallan’s section, about how Hoid doesn’t seem to have much patience for Kal.
“If only there were something we could do with these curious pieces of wood? They have holes that seem intended for some arcane purpose, beyond the understanding of mere mortals.”
Now granted, he does seem more amused here than he usually does when dealing with poor Kaladin. I think Wit’s come to love our Bridgeboy a bit. Maybe not as much as he cares for Shallan, but Kaladin does certainly seem to be growing on him.
Like crem. (Sorry, my inner Hoid came out a little there.)
You think if they’d had more Passion, the cosmere would have saved them?
Hoid’s certainly getting deep into philosophy and religion here. Not that this is in any way surprising—he is Hoid, after all—but this story is very different from the ones he usually tells. He’s shaken… so shaken that he’s forgone his riddles and half-truths, his fables and parables, and is simply telling the truth. That scares me more than anything else in this book so far.
Kelek
“I… I can’t do much these days. I don’t know why. I can’t decide.”
A reminder that Kelek is afflicted with the same mental malady as the rest of the Heralds. They remind me a bit of that quote from Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland: “We’re all mad here.” And who could blame them, after all they’ve been through, and how long they’ve lived?
Kaladin
Kal learning how to play the flute is a very odd character choice. I’m curious to see how this winds up having bearing on the plot or on his character arc. It seems like such a small thing, but Sanderson wouldn’t be wasting pages on it needlessly, so it must serve some purpose down the line. I find it hard to believe that the answer would be something as straightforward as “art as therapy is a means to continue Kaladin’s healing,” which seems to be what this chapter is trying to make us believe.
“But now what? Who am I without the spear?”
“Won’t it be exciting to find out?” Wit said.
Sometimes showing someone a different way of thinking about a problem or situation is the best way to wrench them out of a self-destructive pattern of thought, and Wit seems to have done just that here. He’s encouraging Kaladin to not think about his loss of self as a negative, but as an opportunity to rebuild himself as whatever he wants to be; what he always could have been, had his life not pushed him the way it did.
Drew’s Commentary: Invested Arts and Theories
Right out of the gate in Chapter 3, we encounter a theory elephant in the room: Shallan’s mother. One theory that has slowly gathered steam over the last couple of years (especially after Brandon released that early draft of the prologue) is that Shallan’s mother was actually the Herald Chanarach.
There’s a fair amount of supporting detail for this theory but, at this stage, it’s all circumstantial. We know that she killed her mother sometime around the night of the Parshendi feast in Kholinar. We know that “the world ended” and it was Shallan’s fault. We know that her mother had red hair.
Is that enough to say anything definitively? Absolutely not. I admit that when I first heard this theory, I was not on board. Over time, I’ve softened to it a little bit, but I’m still not totally sold. Brandon loves to lay in foreshadowing and details like this, and he also loves to misdirect his readers. From the start, I thought this theory was a little too on-the-nose.
That said, it’s clear that there is still more for us to learn about the Davar family and their past. Shallan still has another Truth to tell if she’s going to reach the final stage of her Lightweaver identity. Maybe that has to do with her mother… or maybe it has to do with Formless, the newest member of the Shallan wagonload.
But of course, that’s not all that we get from Shallan and company. The Herald Kelek makes it clear that he thinks Ba-Ado-Mishram’s imprisonment is the cause of the deadeyes phenomenon, and reveals that her prison is in the Spiritual Realm! We’ve had plenty of opportunities to get used to Shadesmar over the last few Stormlight books, and now it looks like it’s finally time to see the last unexplored Realm.
It is a place where the future blends with the present, where the past echoes like the striking of a clock. Time and distance stretch, like numbers infinitely repeating.
Pattern really drives home just how alien the Spiritual Realm is, and makes it clear that finding Mishram’s prison won’t be easy—perhaps even impossible. Shallan and Adolin really have their work cut out for them.
But before the end of the chapter, Maya speaks up, throwing another wrench in things:
It is because […] humans have no Honor.
If the deadeyes are in this state because of a combination of Ba-Ado-Mishram’s imprisonment and the death of Tanavast/the splintering of Honor, then it suddenly looks a heck of a lot harder to fix things. There have been plenty of theories floating around about Dalinar reforging the Shard of Honor and various characters potentially Ascending (most popularly either Kaladin or Dalinar himself), and that might have to be something we’ll see happen if the deadeyes are to ever be fully restored.
When this world was created […] long before Honor, Cultivation, or Odium arrived, Adonalsium left something behind on it. Sometimes it’s called the Old Magic. […] Listen to the Wind when it speaks, Kaladin.
Well, chalk up Hoid as one who doesn’t think the voice Kaladin is hearing is Ishar or an Unmade or some remnant of Honor. If this truly is something of the Old Magic, it’s exciting to possibly get a better glimpse at the most enigmatic of the Invested Arts on Roshar. All along, we’ve been given to understand that the Old Magic is from Cultivation; if it’s something older, deeper, more directly related to Adonalsium… well, we might be on the path to getting some answers about why Roshar was made and shaped the way it was.
And there’s one last little mystery to mention here:
It has the same fingerings as the one you lost and recovered, though not the same… capacity.
Hoid’s old flute is more than just a flute. What exactly its “capacity” is remains a tantalizing question. And where it came from…well, let’s just say a lot of people think it used to belong to a certain packman…
That’s it for this week’s big moments, but we have so much more to explore over the next few months. Buckle up.
Fan Theories
“You’re talking,” Kaladin said softly, “as if one of us won’t survive this.”
A common theory, and one we’ve been seeing a lot in the comments regarding last week’s chapters. Many people are worried about the fact that Kaladin is doing better. Breezertree over on Reddit puts it quite succinctly: “Kaladin being content worries me so much. The death flags do be flying.”
Lots of interesting theories about who the author of Knights of Wind and Truth might be…
My theory for now being that Szeth writes Knights of Wind and Truth after “cleansing” Shinovar.
—Kaspbrak, via Reddit
Could the voice talking to Kaladin be whoever the StormFaker is? (If there is a StormFaker at all)
—MIchelsaerperez via Reddit
Calling it now. The voice is the herald Ishar using connection. It’s only when he is sane. He knows he needs help but can only call for it when he is lucid.
—Glexy via Reddit
I don’t have any evidence for this theory, but I think the voice Kaladin hears is Chemoarish or Dai-Gonarthis in Shinovar and the same voice that Szeth heard as a child
—RazorBoomerang via Reddit
I think we are supposed to think at this point that the book is written by Kaladin or Szeth, but in my opinion the language in the book doesnt really line up with how Kaladin or Szeth talk. We also know that at least Kaladin doesnt know how to write (though he could dictate to someone)
Right now my theory is that the book is actually an older text written by Jezrien or something like that.
—nathan, in the comments of the previous read-along
I can’t see the contest playing out straight. Taravangian’s whole thing on ascending is having seen some sort of loophole in the contract, something is very clearly not going to go to plan.
—Otaconucf via Reddit
HUGE props to Hoid17 over on Reddit, who pointed this out:
Interesting that the in-world books is still Knights of Wind and Truth but the actual title is the shorter version.
I TOTALLY missed this and it was staring me right in the face. Well spotted! The ketek of the title is preserved… sort of… (For anyone who might not know what I’m talking about here, symmetry is an important part of Roshar. Many people were excited about the letters in the titles of the books being symmetrical/reading the same front to back, like so:
The Way of Kings | Words of Radiance | Oathbringer | Rhythm of War | Knights of Wind and Truth
TWoK | WoR | O | RoW | KoWaT
There still would have been a minor discrepancy with that “and” in there, but perfect symmetry is usually frowned on anyway.
Lyn’s Funniest Comment of the Day Award goes out to popegonzo on Reddit not only for their hilarious username, but also for this comment which made me laugh:
I’m on board for the Kaladin & Szeth buddy cop show.
I’m pretty sure I made the same exact comment at this point in the beta read.
And the runner-up comes from Worldhopper1990 on Reddit:
I didn’t expect it to become a plot point in this book for Kaladin to figure out the Name of the Wind :)
Didn’t you know? It’s a silence of three parts. The silence of Teft, Tien, and Elhokar. (Don’t look at me like that, dark humor’s my coping mechanism, okay?)
We’ll be keeping an eye on the comment sections and on various social media platforms and may include some of your comments/speculation (with attribution) in future weeks’ articles! Keep the conversation going, and PLEASE remember to spoiler-tag your comments on social media to help preserve the surprise for those who choose to wait for the full release. See you next Monday with chapters 5 and 6!
Wit being worried in both chapters definitely worries me about Dalinar, Kaladin, the entire state of Roshar, and even the cosmere as a whole. Also, what the heck will the back half of the series even be about?!
I agree that Adolin is the absolute best.
I adore Maya. She’s talking so much it makes me happy!
I love reading Drew’s commentary because as fascinating as I find the worldbuilding, I always struggle with piecing things together and figuring out everything. I didn’t pick up on the flute capacities piece and I thought that it was neat the Wind was maybe beyond Cultivation though didn’t think of anything beyond that before reading this article.
“Interesting that the in-world books is still Knights of Wind and Truth but the actual title is the shorter version.” – this is something I noticed and even though I didn’t understand the ketek people were talking about until maybe 3 weeks ago, I’m now sad the original title of the Earth book didn’t stay.
Ok, do I now have to fear that Shallan kills Wit? She fears she has to kill every mentor. I can see Hoid pulling an Obi-Wan and Shallan having to strike him down. Please not in this book. I’m not ready for that. Anyone care to put down a list of the characters they would least like to see die? How many start with Kaladin? My hands is raised in that one.
Well he’s still around for The Sunlit Man so I suspect he’s still kicking
Does the Wind open up the possibility of a fourth Bondsmith at some point? (Assuming Nightwatcher is the traditional third spren)
I have been wondering similar things for a while … it has at times not sat well with me that we are just to assume that the Nightwatcher is the third Bondsmith spren, though I never had a particularly compelling alternative. And now that the story of the Sibling has been well explained I’m back into assuming that the third spren is the Nightwatcher.
It’s unclear if the Wind would actually grant that type of ability though, as she’s of the Old Magic and would not be assumed to grant identical surgebinding abilities via a Nahel bond. It’s not even clear that one could form a Nahel bond with the Wind; it might well be something different entirely, the way that Adolin’s bond with Maya is new to us.
Wasn’t it confirmed in RoW that the Nightwatcher was the third Bondsmith spren? Something about the Stormfather’s and her Bondsmiths sometimes pairing up in the past, but that Dalinar and Navani after she had bonded the Sibling, were unprecedented?
I think that if Ba-Ado-Mishram is freed the Deadeyes will be restored–as Corrupted Spren. I think that’s the reason the Radiants broke their bonds, and the reason the spren became Deadeyes when it broke: their Connection was tied to Mishram, who was imprisoned.
“It is a place where the future blends with the present, where the past echoes like the striking of a clock. Time and distance stretch, like numbers infinitely repeating.”
I hope this ends up better than Quantumania
I have some theories:
The “Wind” and “Truth” might be Old (before the Shattering) or new (after the Contest of Champions) Gods of Roshar; Old or new Godsprens; or New Heralds
The “Knights” could belong to a new order, possibly not Radiants anymore, especially if something significant changes the status quo at the end of the book, such as the potential disappearance of Stormlight.
Does Chapter 3 take place before or after the RoW Epilogue? I suppose it would be after.
If Shallan and company do enter the Spiritual Realm, then I think that would be a departure from what I think Brandon had previously said. IIRC, Brandon said in the Cosemere books, the Spiritual Realm would not be a focus to the plots the way the Physical Realm and Shadesmar are focuses. Brandon had said he wanted their to be complete mystery regarding the Spiritual Realm. Brandon (a) changed his mind (which is his prerogative), b) a journey into the Spiritual Realm will not be necessary [or at least such a journey as Shallan and company think they will need to take]; or c) it happens off screen. I am fine with Options a or b; not with Option C. If Brandon does not want to explore the Spiritual Realm, do not have any plot arcs involving this Realm.
Wema and Vaddam are the characters from that romance novel that the ardent who cracked the code to translate Dawnchant in OathBringer. I guess that is the secret guilty pleasure of the academia and elite of Roshar. I wonder if any of the Fused read romance novels? I bet El does. I can imagine Brandon writing Chapter 4 with glee as he typed away. Not sure why that image came to my mind. But it did.
Wasn’t it the Beyond that was supposed to be the complete mystery? Which is separate from SR and where even the Shards can’t go/see.
In fact, haven’t we seen the Spiritual Realm during Odium’s chats with various persons?
@Isilel. I believe you are correct (and I was wrong). After I made my post, I read somewhere (17th Shard, I think) that Brandon said it was the Beyond that was supposed to be the mystery. I guess I initially thought the Beyond was the same as the Spiritual Realm. Oh well, I will not be the last time I am wrong about a Cosmere theory.
Hm… So people who said that the Wind was female and possibly a spren of Roshar seem to have been right. So, was she the “crystalline voice” that Syl mentions dimly remembering from when she was mostly mindless?
Another thought – what if the voice that spoke to Szeth in his youth and warned him about the coming Desolation wasn’t a highspren at all, but the Wind?
Lindsay, I would guess that Hoid’s music lesson will help Kaladin do something with the Rythms of Roshar when the time comes.
I must say that the Windrunners being able to fetch Shallan and Adolin so quickly feels a little too cheap. And makes Roshar feel small. It is one thing when they fly so quickly with the highstorm, but in Shadesmar?
Oh, and how are less than 2 days “several”? I guess that Wit is more confused than I’d have expected? Maybe by excising those minutes, Todium somehow destabilised his perception of time?
I like this theory of the “crystalline voice”. Syl, acting similar to a windspren, would I guess be well positioned to hear from the Wind even if ROdium was doing something that either deliberately or as a side effect was hampering the Wind’s ability to communicate.
I also only noticed when going over my notes to write up comments, that even within Wit’s mention of the Wind, he is not consistent about referring to it as female: “Listen to the Wind when it speaks, Kaladin. It’s weaker than it once was, but it has seen so very much.” is all non-gendered; it’s only in the follow-up line, “And the Wind… she will listen to you in return.” that Wit refers to her as female.
If Shallan’s mother is Chanarach, would a Shardblade actually kill her permanently? We know Shardblades don’t kill Fused permanently, and spren cut by a Shardblade eventually reform. So would a Herald “killed” by a Shardblade return to Braize, only to break again? Killing her could still cause the Desolation, but maybe more because she gave in to the torture than because she was dead. So she could have returned with the Fused.
Of course, this isn’t a given, since the weakness of the Oathpact might mean that her death was indeed permanent.
I think the theory is stating that Chana was killed by Shallan and went to Braize. in Braize she was tortured and broke. This caused Taln to be released from Braize. This supports the reason the Taln appeared at the end of WoK, well before the Everstorm kicked off the new Desolation. This also supports the WoB that “Taln never broke”
I am coming back to how Jezrien was nonchalant and unimpressed while Moash was murdering him – until he felt the difference caused by the special dagger. I don’t think that we can assume that the apostate Heralds would have been drawn all the way to Braize upon their deaths.
Jezrien certainly came across as someone who had died a number of times after Aharietam and wasn’t afraid of it
There are a couple of lines in this chapter that I found especially interesting. “Healing isn’t an event, it’s a process,” feels like it could apply to several characters besides Shallan. Last chapter, we saw Kalading reflecting that he felt not great, but good. Maya isn’t completely healed, but she’s speaking more and showing more interest in the world around her. Dear departed Teft didn’t conquer his addiction overnight. The idea that healing is a process seems to be a theme in the Stormlight Archive.
The other line I noticed was the comment about the past echoing like a struck clock in the Spiritual Realm. There’s been some speculation about whether Dalinar hearing Evi and Kaladin seeing Tien were true echoes of those characters in the Spiritual Realm or not. If that Realm is a bit timey-wimey, it’s not impossible that a character could perceive an echo of someone who passed through the Spiritual Realm on their way to Beyond years ago.
Here’s my totally outlandish theory: Kaladin or Dalinar pulls a Sazed and unites Honor and Odium to become the Shard of Truth.
Do I have evidence? Well, kind of?
I mean, Truth could be interpreted as an outward expression of a decision or emotion (Odium), but with a basis in just morals (Honor). Kaladin and Dalinar both have the Adhesion surge, which literally binds things together. Why not include the Shards themselves on that list?
Is it impossible? At this point, just about anything is on the table. Is it likely? Probably not. Taravangian-Odium and his sidekick the Blackthorn would made a great Cosmere Big Bad Duo.
It seems more likely that if combined, the shards would become the shard of war. If you mix voidlight and stomrlight you get war light. Also the whole Vorin teachings of fighting a grand war to reclaim the Tranqualine Halls is pointing towards this.
I think combining Honor and Odium will give you Order, at least that is what Kaladin or Dalinar (whichever Ascends) would initially want. Where I agree with you is that the opposite of Oder would be War. Same way that in a monarchy, one can be a benevolent tyrant or tyrannical despot.
Yeah, given that we have some prior art for combining Honor and Odium it’s a little hard to see that specific combo being Truth. But another combo or even a three-way combo would leave more possibilities open. But given what Spook says below about the quote from the Lost Metal and Sazed being the most invested, we should probably look at that theory with some skepticism.
I like this theory and I think the one to do it is actually Taravangian.
Rayse wanted to splinter all of the other shards and just enjoyed being Odium.
Taravangian is a lot more curious than Rayse and being a new vessel isn’t as influenced by the shard itself. I think he’d be interested in picking up more than one…
No theory here. Everyone else is much smarter than myself. But, a small part of me, thinks it would be so hilarious and jaw-dropping, if Shallan is the Herald Chanarach, disguised as Formless. I know, it’s unlikely, and opens up a whole lot of questions that needs serious answers for it to be remotely believable. But still, would it be funny, in a way.
That would be crazy/wild, pretty sure this is the first time I heard this idea.
I don’t know what you mean – it makes eminent sense that he would play a wind instrument, doesn’t it?
I have to say, I am not a fan of this format where you all write your summaries separately. It’s more interesting when you have a conversation.
Anyway looking at this quote “I have read that in the ancient days, the Wind often spoke to both human and singer.”, I don’t think this is Kaladin, since alethi men can’t read (which could change tbh, this could be written some years into the future).
We’re changing things up at the request of Reactor, to encourage more conversation in the comments. We miss the old format, too, but we’re trying to take deeper dives into the characters, worldbuilding, magic, and plots.
So please feel free to ask questions down here in the comments, or make observations, and we’ll try to join the conversation!
I know it’s harder with three people but I’m really missing the back and forth conversation-style posts from Oathbringer and Rhythm of War.
It’s a work in progress and it’s taking some getting used to for us, as well. Reactor is hoping to generate more discussion in the comments, so please engage us in conversation down here!
Hi, I’m enjoying the preview chapters! Also a big thank-you to Paige, Lindsey & Drew for their commentary. I don’t have many specific comments on Wind and Truth yet, but I do have some general speculation based on my just-finished re-read of Rhythm of War.
I believe several different details in RoW show that combining or blending with Odium’s powers results in new ( good? better?) things. Examples: “corrupted” spren are not really corrupted, just different with still unexplained consequences yet clearly working against Odium. The Tones of Roshar include voidlight tones and Navani uses them to connect with Raboniel and to the Sibling. Overall, this seems to point to a future where all can co-exist.
Taravangian’s ascension to “Todium” offers a pathway to this. I agree with a previous comment that Todium may try to find a loophole in the Contest of Champions contract. Also, Cultivation’s interaction with him at the end of RoW is amazing. Her counsel to Todium control the innate powers of the Shard (passion & fury?) offers some hope for co-existance. So, Todium’s influence on the future should be different from what Rayse/Odium planned.
Wit’s worries in Chapters 3&4 W&T. I believe that Todium’s erasure of Wit’s memories in the epilogue of RoW is more than just a 3 minute rewind. I believe something else critical is missing. Why didn’t Wit’s spren, Design, answer him at the end of RoW? I don’t think Design appeared in Chapter 4 of W&T though Wit does see Syl and he talks about Jasnah.
Anyway, that’s just a few random thoughts on my mind which I hope we will see explained more later n W&T.
On the contrary, I think that Taravangian will be worse than Rayse.
I couldn’t agree more… his insistence on ends justifying absolutely any means is utterly terrifying.
“Simply trying to give you a proper send-off,” Wit said. “We’re at the end, Kaladin, and you are needed. I want you to march off to your divine destiny with a spring in your step.”
“Divine destiny” as in Acension? Could Kaladin become Honor … or the Wind? Hmm.
There are at least two ways to read “divine destiny” — one that his destiny is to become divine, and another that his destiny has been set by a divine entity (as distinct from the rest of the people on Roshar who the gods haven’t taken a specific interest in).
So far I’m still inclined to take the majority position here that this suggests Kaladin will Ascend, but it doesn’t seem like a done deal just from this.
In Chapter 27: Chasm Duty in The Way of Kings, (the scene that gives you chills when we first see Kaladin do a spear kata) there is a line that goes “he fought with the wind, and she laughed” and all I could think about was these chapters!! I am listening again on audio so I’m not sure if wind is capitalized, but is this potentially the first time any interaction between the wind and Kaladin is mentioned?!
“For a moment, it was just him. Him and the wind. He fought with her, and she laughed.”
So lower-case, just like in WaT. I’m interested in the difference in Kaladin saying wind and Wit saying Wind, as well. Hopefully we get that question answered soon!
So, we can’t really talk about The Sunlit Man but I think it makes some theories much more likely than others. I highly recommend reading it. Besides, it’s a good story.
I think the Knights of the in world book are Seth and Kaladin. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and even Brandon doesn’t make everything twisted.
I love how Wit is with Shallon. He’s so right reminding her that without the ability (free will) to be bad, there’s no meaning to heroics or honor because you don’t have any way to be bad.
A couple folks have mentioned combining Honor and Passion means War; but Passion with Honor is what you need for Peace. Balance is everything, and that’s what these single Shards lack. Granted, its much more difficult as Sazed is learning.
In the lost metal someone says that sazed is the most invested person in the cosmere because he is the only person who has two shards. That’s set ten years later. No shards combine in this book.
I’m of the opinion that any combination of shards has at least 2 possible interpretations… goodness knows we’re seeing two sides of the combination of preservation & ruin in ol’ Saze…
Hello dear Sanderfans and Cosmere Chickens!
Not a theory, a request for help with reading the Chapters on a weekly basis…
I use Kindel to read them, so I have been coping the text into Word and then transform it to a “mobi” file, BUT; each Monday is a separate file on my Kindle and I make a lot of notes and underlines.
When the actual book comes out on full, I’ll not have any of the notes and markings, because it will be a different file.
Any ideas on how to solve this problem?
Thanks, I’m up with chapter 4 and WOW I’m really happy.
That a beta reader is commenting on the Chana Davar theory makes me uneasy. McCaffrey has already read the book, so knowing what’s in it will color anything he has to say about it. I fully disagree that the theory is “on the nose.” Such a claim reminds of people who used to say that a popular Game of Thrones theory about Jon Snow’s mother was too obvious. It wasn’t. It’s just we live in the age of the internet where people can piece together obscure bits of foreshadowing. I wasn’t coming out of RoW thinking that Shallan’s mother was a herald. Only when someone else presented the evidence was I convinced there was something to it. But now I have someone who has already read the book saying they are not convinced by the theory, so I’m starting to reconsider. Honestly, I will be disappointed if the Chana theory doesn’t turn out to be true, because I think it is that good.
I really hope that this theory isn’t true, because there are too many logical holes in it.
Starting with why a Cognitive Shadow would have birthed the most children we have seen or heard of on screen in SA! Yes, CS can procreate, but isn’t it supposed to be tricky and somewhat hard? And also, if Shallan is special due to being a daughter of a Herald, why are/were her full brothers so unremarkable and mediocre?
Then there is the question as to why a Herald would have even needed a knife to kill a child or to stop her husband from keeping another man down.
And then, Chana hadn’t actually done anything of note in the time between Taln’s return and WaT, so what would be the point? Everstorm was coming anyway. The stormspren had already been smuggled on Roshar. The Desolation was imminent one way or another.
All Chana Davar theory does is heap even more guilt on poor Shallan.
continuing petition for stormfauxther
Some further theorizing about the Wind and Mishram. In short: I don’t think that Mishram is the Wind.
We know that Mishram is trapped in a gemstone that’s somehow in the Spiritual Realm, and we know that the Wind was able to talk to some more people once the vessel of Odium changed. We also know that the Wind is a spren that predates the shattering, and there’s enough that we don’t know about the Unmade such that it is still on the face of it plausible that one or more Unmade were originally spren of Adonalsium. It seems hard to come up with a mechanism by which the change of Odium’s vessel has much impact on the Spiritual realm and in particular communications from the Spiritual realm. The cases we have seen so far that (appear to) involve communication between Spiritual and Physical realms are ones where there is a clear Connection between the parties, and while it’s perhaps plausible that a Shard’s power could disrupt that Connection or at least the communication based on it, I don’t see a way where the communications disruption would be a side effect of a broader effort as opposed to some specific effort targeted at communications disruption. And why would Rayse care about blocking Mishram’s communications when Mishram is one of Odium’s Unmade in the first place? On the other hand, if the Wind is just a regular (albeit powerful) spren of Adonalsium somewhere in Shinovar, she would be affected by the latent field of ROdium’s efforts to convert Roshar to an entity of Odium, akin to how it was made a planet of Honor and Cultivation upon their arrival. We think we’ve seen TOdium broaden his scope of efforts to focus on more Cosmere-level things so it makes sense to me that the change in vessel would have strongly deprioritized taking over Roshar and thus as a side effect stopped hampering the Wind.
There is perhaps a weakness in this theory as it comes to “the Wind stopped talking not because of Odium, but because of people who began to fear her…Or to worship the Storm instead.” but perhaps that can be taken to mean that Odium would have stopped her from talking but she had stopped talking of her own volition before that effect started.
Some observations about Testament and deadeyes in general:
Reading this made me think of the description of Testament’s robe as “bending like cloth” in contrast to Pattern’s that was stiff. Somehow Testament has become squishy as well, but this is not seen as a good thing.
This makes me feel like she just never progressed as far with the bond, so Testament hadn’t had a chance to really regain his mind and memory. We saw a lot of growth in Syl as their bond strengthened, for example. (And, not that it’s particularly apropos for this chapter, but I really want to know what Truths Shallan told to Testament!)
I wish this passage gave some indication of whether her eyes were less scratched-out than “regular Deadeyes”. As it is, the most I can take from it is the coloration part, of a sense that the vines which would be green in a healthy cultivationspren are brown and unhealthy.
If I were to try to draw a common theme between the two, it would be that there is a hole in them (I guess “a hole in their soul” may not be quite right), that has collapsed Testament’s robes and caused Maya’s vines to be unhealthy.
Some spren are more talkative than others. Venli’s Timbre doesn’t speak as such either.
I wanted to dive a bit more into the relationship between Mishram and the deadeyes.
So it sounds like she Connected to the rhythms in order to make them hers and thus to give her a way to grant forms of power to the singers (and to some extent giving her control over them). But since the spren are also of Roshar, that made a Connection between Mishram and the spren as well. If we think of this bond as taking a piece of each side and mixing it together so that they can access some element of the other, then trapping Mishram leaves a hole in everything that was Connected to (using as examples the singers, bonded spren) since part of the singer or spren was with Mishram and thus trapped, but the part of Mishram that remains is not able to contribute anything. So singers become slaveform with no active Connection to Roshar, and the bonded spren don’t notice as much immediately because they have their radiants to still draw on. But when the Nahel bond is broken, this hole is exposed and so Testament’s robes are squishy and Maya’s vines are brown. Why this would show up in the eyes especially is not something I have a good theory for, though.
That last line is not a quotation, so I’m not entirely sure if we’re supposed to treat it as Shallan’s thought process or a somewhat-more-authoritative narrator. I’m inclined to go with the former since it’s very unclear how humankind writ large would have been connected. I think we can see how Roshar is impacted, and Honor to the extent that he is a part of Roshar, and the spren of course. The bonds, though, I’m not sure were directly connected to what happened; the changes to the bonds may have been a secondary effect.
Unless the connection between Mishram(‘s capture) and humankind is why the Ghostbloods are after her, I suppose.
I suspect there will be an analogy (in broad strokes, not a strict analogy) to Elantris: if you’re Connected to a world (or part of it) and then that world goes and changes in an important way, you need to adapt as well or the Connection stops working properly. In Elantris it was the literal geography that tied in to the magic system, and for Roshar it would presumably be something more spiritual (or rhythmic?), but a change in Roshar that’s not compensated for would throw some things out of whack.
My wild theory about the Ghostbloods and Mishram…
[…]
[…]
Everyone keeps talking like they’re looking for Mishram, but I can’t help but wonder … what if they’re just looking for the gemstone rather than Mishram herself? Sure, there are lots of perfect gemstones in Lasting Integrity, but maybe this one is more special (the color of the helidor could be relevant for some purposes)… or maybe the ghostbloods don’t even know about the ones in Lasting Integrity (though that seems unlikely to me)? In particular, I note that the supposition is that Mraize is hunting “her prison” rather than “her”. Why wouldn’t Shallan say “Mishram is part of what Mraize has been hunting”?
This would get back to the dilemma of Kelsier trying to get off Scadrial. If you can pop him in a gemstone and put it in an aluminum box, you should be able to go wherever. If you have a trusted friend to get you out again, of course…presumably he’s not interested in just being trapped indefinitely.
Probably my last non-reply post this week, with a few probably-just-lighthearted observations.
Pattern has interesting things to say about the Spiritual realm, but I’m most interested in which gods he’s referring to! Presumably the Shards, but maybe not…
Why would Kaladin’s windspren react to a gesture from Wit? That looks like magic, to me. But what kind of magic would it be? (Not that I have any particular reason to think this is going to be relevant to anything, to be clear.)
Does Wit know something about getting spren to appear on command? Gloryspren were (IIRC) in the absence of Navani quite difficult to attract. We did read this week that spren are very common now in the tower with Navani there and the Sibling awake, but this still felt noteworthy to me.
What does he have as options other than muscle? His mind? His … use of the surges, Adhesion in particular? I feel like this is foreshadowing but am not sure where it’s going.
Kal FINALLY spending some time to bother with a wind instrument that we know Wit has used in the past to play a true tone of Roshar, echoed back to him and Kal by the Wind itself? Doesn’t seem like a particularly odd character choice to me! He’s had it rattling around in the back of his mind for 3 books now, repeating across the series tha he just had way too much going on to remember it/spend time with it… But now, he has Time. Or, his time is for Him to make choices For Him, not others. At least, that was Wit’s advice.
The flute is definitely going to be important in Kaladin’s journeyto connect with or understand the Wind in some way. Can’t wait to see how that turns out. (Wit might joke that if he’s bad enough, she’ll manifest just to play it for him instead of having to listen any longer lol)
Ahhh I love that packman theory. I really enjoy the break downs as I’m finding even when reading I can’t remember what I actually know, or what is just a theory, haha.
I mentioned this in my read along comment but (Prosperity Gospel BS aside) – regarding the Passions – given that this is a world where Odium exists, I do wonder if there is at least SOME efficacy to it, in a way that doesn’t exist on our world. I’m wondering if that will be significant somehow?