Greetings, Sanderfans! It’s that time again… After our break last week, we’re back with chapters 65 and 66, in which Shallan finally clashes with Mraize, while Szeth continues on his quest and… what? He has a breakthrough? There’s also a key scene with Taln and quite a bit to talk about in terms of Cosmere theories, so let’s get to it, shall we?
The book has been out long enough that most of you will hopefully have finished, and as such, this series shall now function as a re-read rather than a read-along. That means there will be spoilers for the end of the book (as well as full Cosmere spoilers, so beware if you aren’t caught up on all Cosmere content).
Paige’s Commentary: Plot Arcs
Chapter 65 is titled “Not for Honor.” It opens where we left off on Shallan’s last POV section, which saw Tanavast (actually Mraize), attacking her. This confrontation has, of course, been part of Shallan’s mission since before Mraize collapsed the perpendicularity, trapping them all in the Spiritual Realm. She wants to kill both him and Iyatil and also, possibly, find Mishram’s prison.
Back to it!
Radiant takes over. Renarin shouts as Mraize/Tanavast pushes him aside to get to Shallan. Knife in hand, Mraize advances with confused guards fleeing the tent, all but one who appears to be frozen. Perhaps the dramatic change in how the scene was supposed to play out has caused a glitch. Rlain tries to intervene but Mraize evades him before stabbing him. Renarin goes to him and they both retreat from the vision, leaving confused soon-to-be Heralds behind.
Mraize and Shallan stab each other—she’s got the anti-light knife, remember—and then he asks her if she knows why they’re there. Of course, other than her wanting to kill him, they’re both looking for the same thing: Mishram’s prison. But she hesitates as Mraize asks her why they’re searching for it because the question gives her pause. He implores her to work with him to find the prison because Odium is afraid of Mishram and with her, they might defeat him.
In Shallan’s moment of weakness, Radiant asks if she should take over and when Shallan agrees, Radiant tells Mraize she’s there to kill him. Then Radiant takes physical form as white mist and grabs Mraize so Shallan can unalive him. Suddenly, a voice whispers in her ear… Formless manifests as Shallan with black mist for a face. Formless tells her to kill Mraize and Dalinar. She talks a lot of nonsense and completely throws Shallan for a loop. Of course, we know that Formless isn’t really Formless, but Iyatil, and she’s doing her damndest to disturb and discomfit Shallan. Storming cremling.
Overwhelmed, Shallan has the spren pull her out of the vision.
POV SHIFT!
Dalinar is with the other soon-to-be Heralds and Nale leads them to Taln, who is tending horses. Apparently, Taln tried to kill Cultivation and his soul is twisted? Interesting. Then Ishar summons Honor, and Taln wishes for a weapon to kill Tanavast because he destroyed Ashyn. Honor vows not to do such a thing again and offers Taln immortality, which he declines. After further discussion, though, he agrees, despite Dalinar—as Kalak—telling him that the price would be pain.
Taln swears the oath, followed by Ishar, before they all return to the tent so Vedel can seal their immortality. As Honor begins to pull light from his chest, which turns into Honorblades, the vision begins to fade, but not before Dalinar manages to grasp Kalak’s Honorblade. The Blade will allow them to travel through Desolations until they can see when Honor dies.
POV SHIFT!
Shallan is not doing well after her interaction with “Formless.” She wants Radiant to take over but Veil, in her mind, comforts her and assures her that she can handle it. She does wonder where Iyatil is during all of this, so she hasn’t forgotten about the woman. Come on, Shallan… put two and two together! She calms down and asks to be taken to the others so they can brainstorm.
Chapter 66 is titled “Reinforcements.” Szeth is feeling a fondness for the monastery they’re approaching, set on an island in the middle of the river. It’s the Willshaper monastery, and though they already have the Honorblade, Szeth wants to check on the people; he feels this fondness despite how horrible his time there was.
When they enter the city, it seems empty but they finally find a woman, who startles at the sight of them. She seems to have come out of a dream state and tells Szeth that most of the people were sent to the Bondsmith monastery to take up weapons and patrol the borders. She realizes that they were to do this because Szeth was coming.
They head toward the monastery and Szeth notes that he hears Nightblood quietly talking to the Honorblades. And learning. (::squee!::)
Kaladin suggests that the Unmade is in the first monastery, the Bondsmith monastery, which is the last one they plan to visit. Szeth agrees but says he wants to free as many people as possible first. He tells Kaladin he may go on without him, but Kaladin insists he meant it when he said he’d stay with Szeth. Kaladin tries to get Szeth to tell him about meeting with the Unmade and thinks it might be Ashertmarn, but Szeth refuses to talk about it.
They reach the monastery and we learn that Szeth was here when he discovered that the shamans lied, and he was set on the path to becoming Truthless. Szeth heads toward the living quarters, though nobody is there. He stops at what used to be his room and he retrieves the woolen sheep toy from behind a block in the wall. And he weeps.
POV SHIFT!
Kaladin is uncomfortable at Szeth’s crying, it seems. Or he is utterly taken aback by it. He thinks that Szeth had a younger brother but Szeth denies that, and realizes that he didn’t mention the toy in his stories. Kaladin asks him who the child that died was, the one Szeth couldn’t protect, and Syl tells him that Szeth was that child. Kaladin has been thinking that Szeth is so much like him… but in that moment, he realizes that Szeth was like Tien.
Kaladin, much like Shallan in the last chapter, is thrown for a loop. He tells Syl he was expecting that Szeth would become more reasonable but that he’s having trouble helping him because he’s not like the men he had helped at Urithiru. And Kaladin goes from trying to help Szeth because Dalinar asked him to, to needing to help Szeth because he is in pain.
Szeth has recovered and puts the toy back where he’d found it and heads out, stating that they need to check the Edgedancer monastery. Kaladin tells him that it’s not Szeth’s fault, what they did to him.
”Rule number one,” Kaladin called after him. “You’re not a thing. You’re a person. Rule number two, you get to choose. And there’s a third rule, Szeth. You deserve to be happy.”
OH MY FEELS!
Kaladin tries to convince Szeth that he deserves happiness; Szeth tells him he’s wrong. They talk about the people Szeth has killed. Kaladin implores him to do better now and says he can’t do better if he’s dead. He says that Szeth’s past isn’t an excuse but it is an explanation. I tell a friend this often… about me and my struggles with my mental disorders. The things I do—or don’t do—because of my disorders aren’t an excuse but an explanation. I’m not trying to excuse my actions, just as Kaladin tells Szeth not to do.
Then Kaladin asks Szeth what he wants. And Szeth says he wants to stop killing and Kaladin says they’ll figure it out, though Szeth says that it’s impossible because he has to cleanse Shinovar. Kaladin promises him again that they’ll find a way, and Szeth hugs him.
QUIT STABBING MY FEELS, BRANDON!
After they hug it out, Kaladin asks if Szeth’s spren has any suggestions about how they should proceed without killing the remaining Honorbearers. Szeth says that the spren had left that morning. As they turn to leave, Kaladin sees Syl go into Szeth’s room where she retrieves the sheep. Mighty cool, that… Syl moving a brick and picking up the sheep. Though she has Kaladin hold it for her.
He leaves the monastery to find Nale waiting. Nale states that he’s been told they need minding and he’s here to keep an eye on him. Kaladin curses, realizing that Szeth’s spren had gone for reinforcements. So there’s a big old monkey wrench thrown into Kaladin’s therapy plans… just when Szeth had a breakthrough.
Storming Herald and his storming meddling.
Lyndsey’s Commentary: Character Arcs and Maps
Let’s start this off, as usual, with my analysis of the chapter arch Heralds. Chapter 65 has Taln and Palah, and Taln at least is very obvious. This is the first real time we’ve spent with him when he’s not insane. But Palah? Patron of the Truthwatchers, attributes of Learned/Giving and role of Scholar? I can’t see much of a reason for her to be here, to be honest. This one’s a mystery.
And as in the previous chapter, 66 has one obvious Herald and one less-than-obvious one: Nale and Vedel. Nale actually shows up physically in this chapter, and of course Szeth is in his order of Knights Radiant. So that makes sense. Vedel’s presence isn’t quite as obvious as that, but she makes a lot more sense here than Palah did in the last one. Kaladin is displaying her attributes as healer. He’s trying to help Szeth to overcome his darkness.
Shallan
Mraize leaned on the table, coughing again, and she was reminded of a different kind of pain. A pain that she hated, the pain that she’d felt upon stabbing Tyn through the heart so long ago, at the start of her journey.
The pain of killing her mentors. This is a pretty heavy theme for Shallan in this section of the book. And there’s a good reason for her to be feeling this way, of course…
Do you need me again? Radiant asked.
Yes, Shallan said.
We need to talk about how you made me take over earlier, so you wouldn’t have to see—
I’ll confront it soon, Shallan promised.
She saw Chana. Her mother. Naturally she’s got a lot of old guilty feelings being stirred up, having to look at the woman she killed. Not only that, but the burgeoning knowledge that her mother was a Herald probably isn’t doing poor Shallan any favors.
[…] Sometimes the parents’ greatest fear should be their children.” She raised her knife, stained with Mraize’s blood. “You helped make me, yes. That hasn’t saved any of the others.”
Cold as ice, Shallan. But… true, sadly. Shallan’s will to live overpowers all.
[…] You will destroy because you cannot build—and anything you pretend to create is just an illusion. Gone in moments.”
Well, Formless, we know that this one’s entirely untrue given the little lives that are growing inside her right now. (Shallan doesn’t know that yet, though.)
It’s all right, Shallan, Veil thought. You can see her now. You can survive this. You’ve grown to where you can.
Shallan… allowed herself to remain in control. To watch.
Actually facing up to her mother is certainly another step in the right direction! I do like how Sanderson is still playing coy with the reader, though. This is a great example of withholding information from the reader in order to create mystery and tension. Oftentimes when authors do this it feels clunky and artificial, but for Shallan it makes perfect sense. She doesn’t want to be thinking about this, so she’s not. Her perspective is intentionally vague.
Dalinar
He had made mistakes, had killed people he loved, but he would never break an oath.
Here we’re seeing verification of Adolin’s earlier thoughts about his father and the importance of oaths. I wonder if this is going to wind up being important down the line… Perhaps this adherence to oaths is how they’re going to have to take down the Blackthorn in the back five?
Taln
“Immortality,” Tanavast said, his voice echoing the thunder from above. “I offer it to you, Talenel.”
“Ah,” Taln said. “No, thank you. With all due respect.”
Words cannot express how much I love this guy. Just your normal, everyday dude who doesn’t want the phenomenal cosmic powers being offered to him.
And, of course, that’s exactly why he’s the perfect one to take them.
Taln nodded slowly, then did something unexpected. He thought. Rainwater streaming down his face, dripping from his chin, he considered in silence for a good two minutes.
The fact that this is unexpected says a lot more about Dalinar than it does about Taln. This is such a huge decision, I don’t know how anyone could jump into it. Even two minutes is a remarkably short time to consider a decision which could result in your literal immortality!
“I will protect the people of this land,” Taln whispered. “I will hold back the darkness. Not for Honor. But I’ll do it.”
It’s incredible that the reason he decides to do it is to keep anyone else from having to go through this pain. What a great character. I do hope that Taln’s still planned to be a flashback character for the back 5.
Szeth
His imagination had been flawed, unable to grasp true, penetrating misery.
Careful there, emo boy. Wouldn’t want to cut anyone with all that edginess. (I jest, I jest. I love me a good tortured protagonist and Szeth absolutely fits the bill.)
He’d been so strong, so sure he didn’t need anything, until that moment. Until he trembled, squeezed his eyes shut, then put the small toy to his forehead.
And wept.
My heart breaks for this poor boy who lost his childhood innocence far, far too soon.
“I want to stop hurting people. I want to stop being a source of pain. I never want to be forced to take another life. I want to be done, Kaladin. I want to be done.”
::confetti:: Congratulations, Kaladin! You’ve done it! You’ve broken through that hard outer shell and found the soft nougat-y center… of… um… compassion? I don’t know, my metaphor kinda fell apart at the end there, but you get my drift. Szeth has finally admitted to himself what his goal is, and having a goal is so, so important. I know “journey before destination” and all, but it’s hard to have a journey to begin with when you don’t know what the destination might be.
“I have come,” Nale said with a deep voice, “to accompany you on your quest.” He focused on Kaladin. “As I’ve been told that you need… minding.”
Great. Just what we all needed. The world’s foremost leader in Being a Jerk to show up, just when things were getting good!
Kaladin
“You came here for it,” Kaladin said. “Who was the child who died, the one you couldn’t protect?”
Szeth still knelt, head bowed, and Syl tapped Kaladin on the arm. “Kal,” she whispered. “Can’t you see? It’s his. He was the child.”
I’m actually a bit surprised that Kal jumped to the wrong conclusion quite so spectacularly, but the next few sentences do explain it. And then we get one of the best light-bulb moments in Rosharan history…
Szeth wasn’t Kaladin.
Szeth was Tien.
PROTECTIVE OLDER BROTHER MODE ACTIVATED.
You are a product of what life, society, and people have done to you. You bear blame for what you did, but others bear a lot of it too. It’s never too late to accept that your past might not be an excuse, but it is a valid explanation.
Personally speaking, I think this is a message that more people could stand to hear. Empathy is incredibly important; when someone hurts someone else, the chances are very good that there was a reason for that. If people could manage to dig past the hurt and find the underlying cause, I think the world would be a much better place for it.
[…] neither truth nor answers are easy to find. We still have to try, rather than giving up that responsibility to someone else.
This is a very fair point to make. Would life be easier if someone—the law, or religion, or our parents, or whatever—just took all the responsibility and we never had to think for ourselves? Sure. Would we then be empty shells, nothing more than a vessel for those very same authorities? Also yes.
Map
“I would like to check the Edgedancer monastery, though we’ll then need to retrace our steps a little.
Drew’s Commentary: Invested Arts & Theories
These days, it seems she and I are the only ones capable of maintaining any manner of isolation. I can tell you, with absolute certainty, she does not want to see you again. It has not been too long. No, I do not think it ever will be.
Be content to play with your toys on their world of storms. Or do I have to broadcast what I have learned of your goals? I certainly do not think it a coincidence that you have made a special study of the worlds where legends abound of the dead being raised.
And there’s the big boom. Such a tantalizing thing to drop in our laps: Hoid is, for some reason, obsessed with the idea of raising the dead.
Maybe the single most common theory across all the years and all the message boards and communities and websites of the Cosmere fandom is that Hoid wants to bring back Adonalsium. I’m not convinced, though this could definitely be a point of circumstantial evidence in its favor.
And if it’s not about Adonalsium? Maybe Hoid is trying to bring back a person—a lover; a sibling; maybe even his master, the original Hoid—and he took part in the Shattering because he thought that that would open the path to bringing someone back to life. It’s assured that we’ll have to wait for the Dragonsteel trilogy to get the full story, but Brandon is starting to drop more and more hints about the deep past of the Cosmere and Hoid’s origins. Dragonsteel might have to wait for another 15 or 20 years, but we’ll have plenty to chew on until then.
“His soul is warped,” Jezrien said, “from his attempt to kill Cultivation.”
So yeah. I think pretty much everybody was looking forward to seeing the events around the creation of the Oathpact, but this was such an off-the-wall, what-did-I-just-read? kind of moment. Taln—of all people!—tried to kill Cultivation!?
Taln clearly shows his willingness to go after Honor, too, because Honor was responsible for the destruction of Ashyn (and apparently the death of Taln’s grandmother in the process). But why go after Cultivation? She wasn’t involved like Odium and Honor. As far as we’ve seen, she hasn’t really done all that much in general, since arriving on Roshar. The most notable action of hers seems to be shaping the spren of Night into the Nightwatcher. Maybe Taln had some deep personal connection with the Night?
“What? Still frustrated I lost the weapon you gave me, Kalak?”
And there’s this, implying that Kalak may have been on board with killing Cultivation. Another layer of mystery to this whole scenario. And what kind of weapon did Kalak give to Taln? It couldn’t have been anything normal, if it were to be used in the killing of a Shard. Could it have been a Dawnshard?
We know that a Dawnshard was hidden on Roshar, minded by the Sleepless. But we don’t really know when they got it, or where it came from before that. It could certainly be possible that Kalak held it, gave it to Taln. That Taln lost control of it when trying to confront Cultivation, and Cultivation engineered things to have the Sleepless step in.
It’s unclear whether all Dawnshards give the same Torment as the Exist Dawnshard, preventing its bearers from causing physical harm. I tend to think that the effects of holding a Dawnshard would be unique to each, and that the Change Dawnshard currently in Rysn’s possession would give her no such restriction from harming others.
If anything, it might make someone better at violence. Violence is, after all, changing in nature. Maybe the Cosmere’s greatest warrior has more helping him than just his Herald powers…
We’ll be keeping an eye on the comment sections of posts about this article on various social media platforms and may include some of your comments/speculation (with attribution) on future weeks’ articles! Keep the conversation going, and PLEASE remember to spoiler-tag your comments on social media to help preserve the surprise for those who haven’t read the book yet.
See you next Monday for our discussion article of chapters 67 and 68 and interludes 9 and 10—and the end of Day Five!
Paige. Not sure at this point I realized that Iyatil was masquerading as Fomless in the visions in the Spiritual Realm. I would be curious to know how many readers figured it out at this point. I believe I figured it out before the final conformation where Shallan kills Iyatil; but I am not exactly sure how far in advance.
There is already somewhere in the books a much bigger clue for Hoid bringing back adonalsium.
I don’t remember the exact passage, but it where Nale kills the boot maker because he was bonding with a spren. Just before that, he was fitting boots to a young “urchin” child for free. The price was a story/experience from the boy. He was saying something like in his religion, the “one” wanting to learn more of the cosmere was split in many pieces so that each piece was able to learn something of the cosmere so that when reassemble the “one” would have gain much knowledge. To me this “one” is Aldonasium who was broken into 16 shards, with Hoid, being is accomplice, present but not taking a shard himself so that he could then work at putting them all back together after enough time to gain experience. To me that makes sense as how would mere mortals be able to splinter the one god if that god was not willing to let it happen?
The Iriali religion.
yes! thanks
Honestly, I’m hoping that Hoid is not out to reconstruct Aldonasium, and I think that rather trying to resurrect someone long dead was his original purpose but has since become something else. If there was a purpose to Aldonasium’s acceptance of the splintering, I’d rather Hoid not be invested in trying to recreate them.
@AndrewHB, I don’t think I caught onto Iyatil, but was like “?” last book Shallan dealt with formless, why is she back?
I had known (and loved) the Chana theory, so was squeeing every time it came up in the book.
Lyndsey said
My thought is that this is foreshadowing the end of this book rather than something in the back five. But it could also be both.
I learned of the Chana theory through the discussions in previous rereads, but never liked it…and still don’t. It seems gratuitous. I don’t see it adding anything to her character. And it ultimately feels like an excuse for Shallan’s mental issues rather than an explanation.
Drew also added some speculation about Hoid’s motivations and was skeptical about him wanting to raise/revive/reconstruct Adonalsium. While I feel that is something Hoid is planning on doing, I hadn’t really thought about whether doing so is a means to a different end. Maybe, back before the Shattering, he discovered that having the power of a Shard wouldn’t give him the power to bring back someone from the dead (or that it would change him in such a way that the person he wanted to resurrect would reject the new Hoid), so he refused to pick one up. And maybe he feels that if he is responsible for the Return of Adonalsium, that will earn him a boon or wish that can then be traded in for his actual goal. I don’t remember seeing anything in Dragonsteel Prime that supports any of this speculation, but maybe that would have been in the rest of the unwritten books.