Welcome to part two of the spoiler thread for the Malazan Reread of the Fallen! The first thread, now massive, can be found here. Please join us below for our ongoing, spoiler-filled dissection of Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont’s epic series.
(Please note that while the forums are closed for comments, you can still access them here if you’d like to read up on previous conversations in the the thread).
Spoilers for the entire series ahead, naturally.
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Brand new spoiler thread. So, we still don’t know who or exactly what Quick Ben or at least core pieces of him are by the end of the series.
Are we allowed Forge of Darkness spoilers in here? Just in case…
Heck, even after Forge of Darkness we don’t know!
SE has said that Quick Ben is in the Kharkanas trilogy, but that we probably wouldn’t recognize him – so speculation is rampant.
I’m in the camp of him being, at the very least, descended from Arathan and Korya somehow – at the very least, from Korya. She is a mahybe, an empty vessel – much as Quick Ben filled himself with 12 souls. Furthermore, she plays with dolls, and I think that has much significance. At any rate, I’m excited to learn more of these two characters!
Blend:Everything is fair game here–it’s the spoiler thread. But, since some haven’t read FoD, a flag is probably appropriate.
Blend: After only FoD I am inclined to agree with those signs, but Fall of Light and the final book may change that.
Also, I think it’s probable that what we’ll find is that we only see one of QB’s souls original people rather than QB himself.
The thing that bugs me re: the “only one of the 12 souls” being in the Kharkhanas trilogy theory is that we see from when Quick Ben is a child that his family name is Delat. Given Korya’s last name is Delath, I assume there’s some significance there – but if it’s the case that Korya or some future member of the Delath family line has soulshifted into QB, why is his family name Delat BEFORE the soulshifting in Raraku?
Also, we see QB as a child in a flashback during the series proper, and that has to be relevant. I don’t remember if it’s made clear whether he’s somewhere in Seven Cities (though I think it is) or somewhere else altogether, but if he’s so young that he was a child during Seven Cities’ existance, then he’s much too young to actually be a Tiste of any sort, which brings me back to my ‘descendant of Korya’ theory.
The other thing that I think is relevant is that, so far, Korya is outside the Tiste politics because she’s with the Jaghut. If she remains as such, she may be the only Tiste not to become either Andii, Edur or Liosan, and thus keep her normal coloured skin – which could explain why QB doesn’t have Andii or Liosan or Edur skin.
Furthermore, if he’s descended from Korya AND Arathan, then he’s got some Azathanai blood in him too, and that just makes everything that much more complicated. There are tons of possibilities where QB is involved, and I’m very curious to get more information so I can make more guesses, but for now, my favourite theory still rests on him being descended from Korya Delath.
Should we tell Amanda how she is simultaneously profoundly correct, and still wrong?
@Blend
But if Quick Ben has Azathanai blood it would give another explanation as to why he became more powerful after he was “stretched” by his confrontation with Icarium.
Remember what happens in FoD with other Azathanai and what it took for the younger ones to come into their fuller power….
I have a question…
Does anyone know what Sandalath’s deal is when she gets to Kharkanas in DoD? Does this get explained in FoD? I don’t understand why she goes crazy and then locks herself in the room.
I’m currently rereading and at Ch 21 of DoD. So maybe if I finish out the last 2 books I’ll pick up on what I missed the first time.
DoD and TCG only nibble around the edges (though you will likely still pick out stuff you missed the first time), and FoD precedes whatever trauma she must have gone through, but whatever it is seems likely to happen some time during the prequels.
I don’t have any evidence from the texts to back this up. But I have a feeling QB (or one of his souls) is actually Draconus’s son in FoD.
A reread of FoD is needed, but I postponed it again after the publishing date of the next book was postponed again.
Isn’t there evidence in FoD proving or suggesting that QB’s mom was Mother Dark? And wouldn’t that be fitting in with the scene of QB at the Spar of Andii in TCG?
Just thinking out loud here :)
Hmm, I don’t recall any indication in FoD that Arathan’s mother was Mother Dark.
KarlReadsTheseBooks:While the concept of hobbling has been nmentioned, the fact that it will become a plot point later is not known at this juncture. Thus, emphasizing it provides a poiler for some people.
As a point of discussion, the comment is aimed at rereaders and so more properly belongs in this thread.
Understood, though I was more responding to the current reaction of it.
KarlReadsTheseBooks@14:No problem, we just have to keep in mind that not everyone has read as far. Doing the Game Of Thrones Read has made me more sensitive to first time reader inference spoilers. Since that was one of the points of doing that read, it has been useful to me.
@13-15
Just pciking up on this and the start of the discussion in the Chap 10 reread: I am not even sure we can discuss this to satisfaction during the DoD reread; this may only be able after we see this arc play out by the end of tCG.
Taitastigon (Hi Tait!) raises a good point.
However, I think we’ll need to address the issue when it comes up first, and maybe give some guidance, else we may lose readers (maybe even Amanda, if I’m taking her temperature right here).
I seem to recall my alarm bells going off in my first read of Reaper’s Gale, when I learned Humbrall Taur died and Tool taking over. Not that I expected the hobbling, because I don’t recall any about such stuff from MoI (but it’s been a while). However, I have always seen the Barghast as a very barbarian group of tribes as described in MoI.
On a side note, is anybody else seeing the irony in Spax’s Gilk clan leaving Tool’s rule early on, and actually ending up being the only Barghast tribe actually acting in the Endgame fighting on the Malazan side?
How about the reasons Spax gives for doing it in TCG? or this whole conversation!
Is it just the Gilk that are especially prepared for the FA? Are the Gilk just the most traditional? What about the coin armour of Taur’s tribe? or the Moranth? Surely the Moranth armour would frustrate the FA (not to the end yet… maybe they do :) )
Along with what Fiddler says in #10, could Calaras be the “horse” Quick Ben summons at the Spar of Andii in TCG? At the end of Ch 16 of FOD when Draconus leaves Arathan the description of Calaras reminded me of the “dark form” with “crimson eyes” from TCG. “The stallion’s black hide deepened, his form blurring at the edges, his eyes flaring as if suddenly lit with lurid flames.”
I could be reaching here. d
For the beginning Crippled God discussion, the identity of the wrapped corpse was a bit of a puzzler for many with much discussion after the release of chapter 1. I was hoping to let Amanda and others mull on it for a while.
In Chapter 24 of The Crippled God we have:
And then continues. This is a fairly key passage that completes the work started in Chapter 1.
ah, thanks. Is there something that ties Heboric to the corpse Mael brought to K’rul though? Because I assume that corpse was corporeal, and here Mael is talking to a soul at the bottom of the ocean, it seems.
Why the words, “You with Yours” then? Was Heboric tied to K’rul at some point?
you with your’s would, i assume, refer to k’rul and kruppe. mael of course has tehol, but the third pair is shadowthrone and iskaral pust. i always thought it a comment on the particular affinity those gods found in three mortals.
Why Shadowthrone and Iskaral? Is there actually any confirmation of this? There are quite a few God/Mortal pairings throughout the series if you really think about it.
Couldn’t it be Errastas and Feather Witch? Or The Crippled God and his Priest (the one that Karsa holds in his arms near the end)? Or Cotillion and Apsalar/Sorry? Or Cotillion and Lostara Yil? Or D’rek and Banashar (though D’rek would be a she)? Heck, Draconus and Rake?
He and his imo is revealed towards the end, when Tavore takes the talon out of the box. Both her and Ganoes … true children of the Emperor.
Now I’m confused again. K’rul and Kruppe?
Mael shows up to a meeting with K’rul, toting a corpse that he gives to K’rul and says “You with yours…etc”. Which to me would indicate the corpse is that of someone who belongs to K’rul. Or does the conversation at that point have nothing to do with the corpse?
But so why would Mael bring Heboric’s body to K’rul anyway? And how does the scene with the ghost at the bottom of the sea “reveal” that the corpse was Heboric’s? Other than Mael’s involvement, why else should the corpse from Chapter 1 be tied to Heboric’s soul in Chapter 24?
Heboric is the corpse (drowned in The Bonehunters), and Mael has returned the soul to the corpse to suit their upcoming purposes. The “you with yours” thing doesn’t refer to Heboric at all, except he’s a jumping off point to musing about their human friends. I personally agree with Mayhem about the third set’s identity. But of course you don’t have to stop at the three pairs, as a reader — those just happen to be the three Mael and K’rul are musing on. That Ch. 24 scene is wonderfully sad given how Heboric thinks of Duiker, but it’s perfect setup for an affinity with the likewise crucified Korabas who has the same trouble with destroying everything around her that Heboric feels. It’s remarkable setup from all the way back in Deadhouse Gates and HoC.
From Wilbur
And while this is a good reflection of reality of our world, it does
frustrate me a bit in books when characters fail to bridge this gap
because they don’t communicate. In TCG, all Tavore needed to do to save Blistig’s soul was communicate to him. If she had just given him some specific, measurable, actionable, relevant, time-bound information, he could have had a goal and purpose to work towards. In my mind, this is a failure of leadership on her character’s part.
This annoyed me on my first read through, but on rereading … the being kept in the dark is no accident. Rather it is an entirely deliberate action to force him to build up his own mental toughness, which is needed in the final battle against the power of the FA.
… Blistig fought with the ferocity of a rabid dog. He was going to die. They wanted to kill him – every damned one of them wanted to kill him, drag him down, trample his corpse. His life wasn’t supposed to end like this. He would fight, and fight. This was not going to be the end – he wouldn’t let it. I will not let it!
Blistig was still fighting, a hard, defiant knot at the front of the centre phalanx. Banaschar could see Kindly, there on the right, doing the same. And Faradan Sort on his left. These three Fists, chosen by the Adjunct, simply refused to fall.
Think of the sheer stubbornness that all three have by this point – it is a clash of Will versus the power of Akhrast Korvalain. Kindly always had it in spades. Faradan Sort clearly gained it between the Stormwall and Y’Ghatan. But Blistig was broken following the Chain of Dogs. He slowly gained authority, but relied on the optimism and ability of Keneb to get anything done. He then turns inward … becoming increasingly pessimistic … twisted and fearful of dying in the desert which ends in him betraying Pores to steal water. And yet with some simple revelations right at the end, Tavore manages to bring out the steel core within him, that ultimate Will that He Will Not Die to stiffen his troops and hold the centre. And it works.
From Book 2, Chapter 5; Yedan Derryg talking to Cpt. Pithy (not really a spoiler since we are on CHapter 5, but I don’t wanna ruin it for anyone)
‘Captain,’ said Yedan Derryg, ‘if the enemy destroy us, they will march down the Road of Gallan. Unobstructed, they will breach the gate to your own world, and they will lay waste to every human civilization, until nothing remains but ash. And then they will slay the gods themselves. Your gods.’
‘If they’re that nasty, how can we hope to hold ’em here?’
Yedan nodded at the Lightfall. ‘Because, Captain, there is only one way through. This stretch of beach. A thousand paces wide. Only here is the wall scarred and thin from past wounds. Only here can they hope to break the barrier. We bar this door, Captain, and we save your world.’
‘And just how long are we supposed to hold ’em back?’
He ruminated for a moment, and then he said, ‘As long as needed, Captain.’
Then there is this from Book 7, Chapter 21; Paran and Quick Ben:
Paran studied the man. Mystery? What mystery? ‘Right. Very well. The worst? Here goes, then. Kurald Galain falls to vengeful Tiste Liosan, and they walk that path right into the heart of Shadow, ousting Shadowthrone, and from there they march onward, to this world, joining with the Forkrul Assail in a tide of slaughter, until not one city is left standing, not one field planted, not one human child born into the world. Do you want the rest?’
‘There’s more?’
‘The Elder Gods, having at last freed the Otataral Dragon, succeed in the annihilation of magic, barring that paid for in blood – unless of course Korabas is killed, but if that happens it will mean that the Eleint, who are now or will soon be loose in this realm, will have killed it – and they will in turn seek domination, not just of this realm, but of all realms, delivering chaos wherever they go. And so, even with us wiped from the earth, terrible powers will contest the claim to our legacy. The gods will be dead, magic a thirst only fools would dare invite, and … well, should I go on?’
Quick Ben licked dry lips. ‘Parts of Burn are dying – on our way here, whenever we touched the soil of this world, I could feel her skin searing, drying and shrivelling into something … lifeless.’
‘The Otataral Dragon, yes.’
‘I probably already knew that,’ Quick Ben muttered. ‘Just trying not to think about it and hoping it would all go away. Hood’s breath! Ganoes Paran – tell me what we can do to prevent all this?’
The High Fist’s brows rose. ‘How unfortunate. That is the question I was going to ask you, Quick Ben.’
Save your energy, Worrywort.
Yes. Excellent finds! But there’s also this, from Chapter 9, the internal monologue perspective being Sister Equity: “But, Sister Reverence, then I look into your ancient eyes, and I see how the hunger of our allies has infected you. The Tiste Liosan, the Eleint, the Lord and Lady of the Beast Hold – but all they desire is chaos, anarchy, destruction, the end of the Age of Gods and the Age of Humans. Like you, they thirst for blood, but not a little blood. No. Oceans, oceans of blood.”
So I guess this is mad proof that its not that much of a mystery then. Good work!
Karl/Worry,
Thanks for laying it out. I completely missed those connections the first time around. Call it the myopia of a first time reader, reading to see what happens to the trees while missing the forest.
TCG, and specifically parts about the FA/Perish/Shake, become a lot more gratifying when that connection is made. When we get to the Q&A with SE at the end of this book, remind me to ask if he felt the connection was explicit- and if not, why he chose to write it that way.
I did recall those mentions of the TL/FA alliance, but I still think it comes off a little poorly. The TL in the prologue, after all, seem to be setup entirely as if the reason they are breaking their isolation and waging war is due to Kadagar Fant taking over from his father and completely changing their ideology, not because some FA came to visit him and persuaded him. Seems like a bit of show-one-thing-then-tell-another.
And FA alliance or not, there should, IMO, still be something more explicitly connecting the TL invasion to the return of MD, or else it leaves open the question of why the TL are invading now after hundreds of thousands of years of inactivity.
Something that I consider to be a great strength of the early and middle Malazan books is that we see the inside of both sides of a conflict, whether or not one of them is clearly “the enemy”. We learned a lot about Dryjhna’s forces, the Pannion Domin, the Letheri and Edur, Leoman’s troops, the Claw, the Awl, etc. DoD/TCG have this for the Elder God trio and the TL to some extent, but the dragons, FA and anti-Perish mostly only have some tactical discussions and a few big bad monologues. It would have been really interesting to actually see some amount of discussions between the EGs, FA, TL and Togg/Fandy; especially given that they are all working together to some small extent while wanting quite different things…
And while I’m here in the spoiler thread, I really liked the characterization of Blistig in this latest chapter. In fact, I really like his progression throughout the series. Except for one thing: several chapters from now, when they’re in the glass desert and Blistig has totally lost all faith, SE’s going to pull out of nowhere that Blistig is apparently actually a Malazan nobleman. Not only does this completely come out of nowhere, but I think it’s entirely unnecessary. There’s already a very good reason for Blistig wanting to give up on Tavore and leave, as was just explained in this past chapter. Having him suddenly say “oh and also I’m a nobleman so you can hate me even more” seems actually detrimental to me, as it is painting Blistig with the same brush as the incompetent asshat nobles seen in DG and suddenly it becomes a “nobles are asses, non-nobles stay loyal” dynamic instead of the much more interesting dynamic of “not all soldiers can so easily believe in Tavore”.
I understand what the Liosan are doing, that part of the Shake thread never baffled me. My problem is with – why the Shake? What makes them the needed defenders? What’s their mystical, mythical tie to the Shore that they need to be the ones to protect it? That whole part of the storyline is what I don’t get. From what I understood of the bits and pieces of their history that we learn, they just seemed to be the soldiers stationed there.
*shrug* It’s not that big of a deal, overall, it’s just one of those things that makes me think that it’s an extra thread that didn’t need to be there. Why not have the Tiste Andii return to Kharkanas with the return of Mother Dark, to find that the Liosan are breaking through, rather than bring in yet another group linked to the Realm of Darkness?
@Vanye
short answer: because SE was doing setup for FoD ?
RG, DoD and TCG give us some explanation – through Deadsmell’s investigation, Yan Tovis’ musings and Sandalath’s flashbacks we can see that:
1) the Shake were previously defenders of the Shore back in the old Tiste days
2) after a long time fighting at the Shore, they followed Rake/Silchas to west-Lether and were stationed at the oceanic shore to stop K’Chain babies coming onto the mainland after a Che’malle Matron loosed a ton of eggs into the sea. There they slowly bred with the humans (and Edur?), and the witches absorbed some essence from the K’Chain larva in the sea.
3) the Shake have a royal line and many unique titles that are passed down through the generations. How/why they have a royal line separate from the rest of the Andii is not explained until FoD.
4) At some point Gallan made a magic road leading back to Kharkanas.
So the whole connection of why the Shake need to be the ones defending the Shore is because they were the ones who did so before and the Shore calls to them to do it again (as we sort of saw with Yan Tovis two chapters back). A bunch of magic properties and memories are passed along magically through their royal line, and it seems this includes summoning them back. Sort of.
FoD spoilers:
in FoD, we learn that the Shake were a Tiste religious group that worshipped the River God of the river flowing through Kharkanas. The two leaders of this religious group – Mother Sheccanto Derran
and Father Skelenal – were related to Mother Dark, which is why they have a recognized royal line amongst the Andii separate from Mother Dark’s. I suspect that in Fall of Light/Walk in Shadow it will transpire that the Liosan and Andii will control the lands on either side of the river which flows through Kharkanas, and then those lands will be divided into separate realms with Lightfall as it is seen in TCG coming into existance along the path of the river. The Shake, their river god dead, will end up holding to the land by the former-river and fight at Lightfall against the Liosan, as hinted occured in DoD/TCG.
speaking of FoD(SPOILERS), the last few comments on the actual reread had me fighting them back . the poster kulp asks: “We know that the warrens are a part of K’rul, but where do the Elder Holds receive their power? What is the “engine” that gives Omtose Phellack it’s power? What is an “elemental force?”.”
all i can think is “see the errants a huge f*cking dick right?”
(if you’re still scratching your head i’m refering to the fact that errastas killed hoods wife to make the gate of darkness for draconus)
In the comments in chapter 7 Tavore reveals that she got started on all of this when the Paran family lost it’s male heir (paraphrasing).
The moment that triggered is possibly when Ganoes Paran joined the army, or when Dujek’s army went ‘rogue’ against the Pannion Domin.
I think it’s probably the moment when Ganoes started working for Adjunct Lorn, and, by proxy, Empress Laseen (Surly).
We know Tavore turns out to be a Talon (one of two in the 14th, the other being Throatslitter). But how did she become a Talon, at her age? I suspect her Father was a Talon who wanted to pass on the trade, just like Baudin the Elder did with his son, as showed in DG.
When Ganoes Paran started working for Laseen (the embodiment of The Claw, and the Talons’ biggest enemy), the Paran family head must have felt that his son was lost to the cause, and passed the Talon legacy on to Tavore, who then recruited Baudin to keep Felisin safe during her temporary imprisonment (that was the plan anyway).
Oh good, I wanted to talk about this bit too.
Note also the line from Tavore about consulting with Heboric Light Touch – I think his presence in the line in DG with Felisin was anything but accidental.
Even money that Baudin was supposed to protect and rescue them both, with Duiker brought in to arrange the escape route.
I like the idea of the father being a Talon, probably a senior one. It would also explain the easy access the Paran family had to the High Command, for Tavore to practice against. Definitely Tavore identifies as being a true child of the Emperor, a second extension of the Old Guard as it were.
Now Ganoes only disappeared for the Empress at the end of GotM, when Lorn died. And Tavore was there ready to step right on into the missing Adjunct role, and promptly sent straight off to Seven Cities. Which means all of this consultation with scholars, delving into the history of the Forkrul Assail, and all of the planning that had to take place … happened before she became Adjunct.
So it has to be the moment Ganoes became a soldier, and that was 1158 – three years before the massacre in Itko Kan according to his arrival back home. Tavore took over the management of the family affairs, including the plotting for influence. Two years later in 1163 saw Paran in Genabackis. His disappearance there allegedly killing the father, but more likely that was the work of Hood, a meaningless death in his place. And that kicks off DG.
Which still means that all of this was planned by Kellanved & Dancer prior to Laseen’s takeover. Maybe not directly, but definitely in terms of putting certain pieces on the board, and having instructions passed down between their followers – at least before most ‘drowned’.
It’s good to remember that Ganoes actually does, literally, die in GotM. The family loses its male heir right then. I suppose that’s more about the “recruitment” of Ganoes and Tavore is already on her way as you guys say, but it’s a turning point for both of them.
Also I tend to agree Heboric’s presence is no accident. There’s the “Secret to show now” in DG and “Something to show you, now” in The Bonehunters, so Hood certainly has a hand in the relationship from the start, and he’s part of the conspiracy. And the “secret” — the flies disperse and there’s no god there — is a pretty good metaphor for what the “good” gods are ultimately arguing.
Just going to note that if Ganoes’ father was a Talon, that should absolutely not explain them having access to high military command officials and whatnot… a Talon would want to stay completely hidden from the Claw post-The Return, not call in favours! The Paran father is a nobleman and the head of a major Untan family. Whether or not he is a Talon, that is the only way he would be making connections to officials and other families.
@Tufty
Different time frame. The Talons were Dancer’s *military* intelligence and assassination wing. The Claw were set up as a shadow of that, with an external focus. The Claw wiped out the Talon, but only after Laseen took power in the Night of Knives. During the period the Emperor and Dancer were … absent … things were as normal.
The leader of the Talon after Dancer was Amaron, one of the Old Guard, and familiar with all the High Command. If Paran Elder was senior under him, he would have had all the contact he needed. After that, the contact has been made, so there is no reason not to continue it post Return … with a suitable cover story.
If Paran Elder was simply a nobleman, he would never have managed to get Tavore the access she clearly needed, even with bribes … recall back to the prologue of GotM.
… where even now his father negotiated the island export tithe with the harbour officials …
And this one could be read in two ways, especially if Whiskeyjack recognises the boy … or his family. Ganoes is mistaken about the pigs … could he also be mistaken about his father?
Ganoes scowled. ‘You’re not like the other soldiers I’ve talked to. You sound more like my father.’
‘But I’m not your father,’ the man growled.
‘The world,’ Ganoes said, ‘doesn’t need another wine merchant.’
The commander’s eyes narrowed, gauging. He opened his mouth to make the obvious reply, then shut it again.
Ganoes Paran looked back down at the burning quarter, pleased with himself. Even a boy, Commander, can make a point.
Mock’s Vane swung once more. Hot smoke rolled over the wall, engulfing them. A reek of burning cloth, scorched paint and stone, and now of something sweet. ‘An abattoir’s caught fire,’ Ganoes said. ‘Pigs.’
The commander grimaced. After a long moment he sighed and leaned back down on the merlon. ‘As you say, boy, as you say.’
Nice theory. And a wine merchant, that’s a good cover for meeting with the Emperor and his posse. And a good excuse, later, for returning to the capital regularly. So, Paran joined the army at 16, against his parents wishes, probably secretly. Then daddy, or his old talon contacts, decide to recruit Tavore. She’s only about 15 I think, but quite promising. A tactician, so they send her to ‘college’ to study history and the enemy she’s going to be needed against. She must have met T’Amber in the libraries too, or at least during her research. I’d like to read that story.
Mayhem@42:I like that quite a lot. The sentence:
takes on a whole new unfolding meaning with that interpretation. Very interesting.
@42
That is outstanding, Mayhem.
I do believe this was all planned out before Tavore became adjunct. After all, I think one of the main reasons she became adjunct was because of what came with the title besides an army. The otateral sword which was used for their plans.
Re: the above comments about the Talon and the Paran family, et al…. I think it all goes way further back than that. Dancer was the head of the Talon, who’s to say that this wasn’t all put into place before the events of NoK – the Emperor and Dancer ascended for a reason, and I think that reason has always been, at least for Dancer/Cotillion, to free the CG. I mean, the fact that the person who is making it all happen is a Talon should be a big clue towards that, don’t you think?
After reading about Sandalaths past I came to some conclusions: what had happened to her was that she had been raped; the one who did it was Draconus which is why Rake killed him; and that she had become pregnant because of the rape.
@50 There’s more on Sand’s time as a hostage in FoD. Are we doing FoD spoilers here?
yep, open season on spoilers here
@50. I don’t think it was Draconus that caused the trauma. I think Sandalath thinks it was Draconus. Someone is playing games here and Draconus never came off in FoD as a rapist, so that would be incredibly out of character. No, if anything, I believe it was Spite or Envy manipulating things to make it seem like that’s what happened. Those girls were sick, and even made dogs rape Arathan.
If this is the case, then just imagine all the shit that rolled downhill from that act.
thats a very interesting point. lets not discount the power we’ve seen spite and envy display. their aspects at the time of FoD seem to allow them to possess people almost. very chilling considering their absolute lack of moral compass.
Gotta agree with Karl here … doesn’t seem like anything the Draconus in FOD would do. But, … well … some congress occurred with someone …. Orfantal has a sister.
And Korlats blood is ‘ impure’ though that can mean many things, I think it means she’s only half Tiste. Maybe Sandalath was the one possessed, she seems very vulnerable in FoD. Then the evil twins have her seduce Draconus, then Draconus finds out and is so disturbed that he reacts badly?
I also have the less likely theory that Sandalath herself is only half Tiste, that some Azathanai fathered her and therefrom comes the impure blood. This mainly based on Sands mothers weird behaviour towards her daughter and husband. Korlat is still the product of a rape while she was under Draconus’ protection. D then abandons her and this pisses off Rake (more than he already was).
I really hope the Karkhanas trilogy answers these questions.
I’m with Karl – I’m pretty sure Draconus wasn’t the rapist.
I actually think it might have been Tulas, on the grounds that he later becomes Tulas Shorn. Betrayal of Hostage rights sounds like it would have been significant enough for Shorning, or at least a factor in it.
It would also explain the impure blood as being a mixture of Andii and Edur.
However I’m also pretty sure that the situation happened while Sand was officially under Draconus’s protection, which makes him culpable as well by the twisted logic of honour.
Side note – I wonder how it is that the Tiste can interbreed with the Imass from a biological point of view. Jaghut/TTT is previously established, plus they share the multiple organ line of evolution vs the Imass (normal human?) line. TTT/Imass is also listed, but a number of human characters are descended from the Andii of Drift Avalii (Topper, Pearl etc) and I suspect there was interbreeding in Bluerose as well.
The Tiste interbreeding makes sense – they appear to have been one race split by magic into light/dark/mixed as part of FoD. But they are foreign to the world of Wu, so shouldn’t be compatible.
OTOH, so are the Jaghut, and they are listed as a Founding Race by Gothos, but appear to be hanging out with the Tiste and Azathanai so hey, who knows.
I’m actually really looking forward to seeing the first waves arriving as part of the Kharkanas series.
In FOD Draconus doesn’t come off as a rapist but if I remember correctly he set aside some of his power. That is what was locked in the room no one is supposed to enter. What happens if she opens the door?
But TTT/Inmass is also something that happens, Ublala is a TTT mixed breed with humans. And I would guess the girl that Karsa raped in the begining of HoC (in the town, after using bloodoil) also had his kid.
I am sure we will find out what happens to Sand, and it wont be good
High House Chains
King: Skinner
Consort: Tavore
Seven: The Unbound
Knight: Karsa
Reaver: Lostara
Leper: Hedge
Cripple: Banaschar
Fool: Blistig
Fiddler has a role as a reader of the Deck, but I don’t think he’s actually in the Deck. I initially had him pegged as either Reaver or Leper, but Hedge makes more sense as the latter, and indeed there’s a nod to that earlier where Hedge says “I feel like a leper.” The Reaver position fits Lostara best, the 2 faces being a reference to Cotillion’s possession as thomstel said, rather than 2 people.
@djk, yep, I think that nailed it.
It also makes sense that Kallor has been abandoned as Reaver – the chains are now seen as more positive than negative.
Good point, djk.
Let’s keep a tab on this.
I still think Reaver being Lostara and Rudd fits better simply because Cotillion is not amongst the Bonehunters (and if he were the T’lan Imass wouldn’t know it). What’s a Reaver anyway? I dunno. But Lostara and Rudd are the two fighters in the Bonehunters with special godly powers that they demonstrated against the Nah’ruk and both are healthier trudging through the desert than the rest.
But it really doesn’t matter all that much either way.
@39 (sorry I’m going backwards a bit but I haven’t read this thread in a while) –
Surely the meaningless death that the Twins bargain for with Hood in Gardens is Felisin; all the things that went just slightly wrong to eventually cause her death – at her sister’s hand – it reminds me of Whiskeyjack’s death. How Hood meddled just a little bit (turning Mallet away again and again). And furthermore, Hood talks about it later, about watching through Felisin’s eyes (or was it Tavore’s eyes…?)
Tufty, I’ll concede that it’s possible. So I’m not going to get bent out of shape about it either. It just seems more likely for there to be one person in each role. The Seven of the Undead Fires are the only role in the Deck that sounds like it’s more than one, and their role is specifically called out as multiple.
@66
The problem is that Felisin’s death happens substantially later, after a whole bunch of potentially fatal situations.
Whereas the parents die within weeks of that agreement and that triggers a whole swathe of unintended consequences for the family, not least of which is the ruthless purging of the nobility and the start of DG.
I wonder if Tavore would have been quite so ruthless in condemning her whole family in order to become Adjunct if her parents were still alive, as opposed to just a sister who she also tried to protect?
I wondered some more about High House Chains.
Could Munug (the artist who originally sells Trakes torc to Picker in MoI, later High Priest in TCG’s House in TtH) be the Herald?
The part in TCG where he talks to Karsa and dies in his arms before he enters Fener’s last church makes me wonder about that.
Or, even considering Picker acts as a messenger to Karsa twice (in TTH and in TCG), could Picker be the Herald, and Munug the Magi? Munug appears to be voicing Kaminsod’s thoughts here.
Unfortunately, no books to check in here atm, except a digital copy of TCG.
Herald and Magi aren’t “official” roles within the House of Chains… but on the other hand what does that even matter?
If we want to stick to official listed roles though, then I would say Munug was acting as Cripple before, but now he’s retired from that position (or, conversely, there’s just multiple Cripples like Hood and all his Soldiers/Knights/Masons).
Picker was charged with delivering the message to Karsa by Hood, so you could consider her the Herald of Death, which is indeed one of the official positions.
In the end, I find all these House/Deck positions pretty meaningless. Any God or Goddess can have as many servants as they want, and they can empower their followers using their godly powers, or not. They can empower each follower as much and however they like, regardless of which “house title” that servant/follower has, if any.
In GotM, we saw one of Hood’s servants opening and closing the Gate of Death itself… surely quite a feat which requires a lot of power invested from Hood himself, yet as far as we know that servant doesn’t have any particular “house title”.
Meanwhile, the Deck of Dragons uses all these titles as metaphors for actions going on regardless of actual alignment to any particular God or Goddess. So in a given Deck reading The Rope can be Vorcan, or Kalam, or Topper, or Isha, and the Mercenary(ies) can be the Perish, or the Grey Swords, or the Crimson Guard, or the Moranth…
So does it really matter which followers Hood decides to call Soldiers and which he calls Knights? As far as I’m concerned, the Crippled God can have a hundred Lepers of Chains, two hundred Fools in Chains and a dozen Fancypants of Chains spread all across the world, while the Seven of the Dead Fires simply recognize the ones within the Bonehunters are being The ones without any knowledge of the Crippled God’s secret bake sale happening in Genostel at the same time (where the “true” Dessert Chef in Chains is at the moment).
~Tufty, wishes she had a thousand Consorts :P
It seems like one of the keys in having the “House of Chains” that operated similarly to other Houses was to essentially fit in and so become part of the pantheon.
Once that was done, it does seem that tinkering with the roles was “allowed.”
@68
Eh… I still don’t buy it. Plenty of opportunities for Hood to kill her off, yes, but it’s the Twins that owe Hood a death, and for Felisin to die after all that, when it could so easily have been avoided a dozen different ways, with Hood literally staring through her visor… how could that be anything but the hand of a god?
Furthermore, there’s the meeting with Tavore and Ganoes at the very end… siblings who, frankly, never saw eye-to-eye, finally meeting again after all that has come to pass, and what binds them together is Felisin. I always took that scene to be so heartbreaking because Felisin’s death seems to be what has broken Tavore; every time we see her pain, I think it’s Felisin. Tavore feels she’s failed her, that she’s responsible when in reality… she’s just not. The gods deemed that Ganoes would live and Felisin would die. That version just feels right to me. It has the tragic poetry that I expect from these books.
@Fiddler (#17): Be interesting to see a comparison between the “barbarian” Barghast and Teblor. Are they different? If so, what makes them so? What makes Karsa different from, say, Maral Eb? To elaborate just a little bit, both Karsa and the Barghast have shown themselves capable of misogynistic violence. Karsa seems to have eschewed that violence. A result of his experience with “civilization”? But, both he AND the Bargast have experience with civilization. The Barghast have been marginalized and corrupted (Maral’s brothers wanting to simply replace the (I forget the group) rulers and have their own keeps) by contact with civilization, while the Teblor seem not to have reached that point (at least not Karsa’s Uryd).
@lycophidion,
First difference between the Tblor and the Barghast that springs to mind is that the Barghast seem to be wandering tribes while the Teblor are settlers, in a remote area. At least that is how I read them.
That would imply (IMO) that the Barghast would feel threatened by civilization earlier and more severe, because they need more land to live in.
Or maybe they are just more agressive.
Anyway, with Karsa’s promise to humanity and SE having planned a trology concerning that, I’m sure we’ll get to see the Teblor getting more agressive.
I am pretty sure that when Tanakalian stabs Setoc as she is about to manifest The Wolves that he kills Fanderay. This is in reference to the discussion of TCG Chapter 23.1:
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/10/malazan-reread-of-the-fallen-the-crippled-god-chapter-twenty-three-part-one#comments
My reason for this belief is that in Assail (which I just finished today) the Blue Shields reference Togg as the surviving beast god.
@@@@@ Wilbur: Ah, I see. I’ve only just started Assail myself :P
But the point remains that in tCG we don’t know which one was killed.
I automatically took it to be Fanderay because Setoc is female. Togg used Toc as a vessel, and both are male.
Note: I am aware of different genders in their MS/SA/Des choices. I was basing it purely on bodily possession.
Just thought I’d mention, I’m about 2/3 the way through Blood and Bone and I think it’s easily Esslemont’s best so far. I didn’t love OST and I haven’t read Assail but B&B has been fantastic so far.
Looking forward to the re-read for these books too.
@28 – You know, this:
brings to mind the whole motivational piece between Yedan Derryg and the two Letherii captains, prior to the defense of the shore.
@29, 30, 32 — lost the thread… what do these respond to?
@@@@@djk1978
100% agree. I think B&B is Esslemont’s best, including Assail. Very excited for the reread to hit B&B.
First time poster here. I am on my 3rd re-read of TCG. Can somebody help me with the geometry of Lightfall? Is it out over the shallow water? is it perpendicular to the shore? Is it on land? I have missed it everytime.
Welcome, Hodor.
I had that same problem.
The way I see it, Lightfall is situated on a part of the shoreline. We never read anything about the defenders trudging through water after all.
I say part, because it is described as a small breach. Plus Yedan pulled the Hust sword out of the water somewhere along the shore.
Thanks Fid. I guess I still don’t see it. I have been through this battle 3 times now and I find myself constantly disoriented when I try to follow the action. There is one line I believe where Yedan makes reference to the holding of a berm which would lead you to believe that Lightfall is completely on land. If that is the case, then how can they see the water?
In frustration, I have resided to imaging Lightfall being in the shallows of the water, maybe no more than a foot deep.
Also I believe that Yedan found the sword lying on the shore. Could be wrong there.
Lightfall is a breach, it’s not bordering the full shoreline.
Lightfall is a breach? I thought Lightfall is an entire enormous wall of liquid light that is entirely visable from the shore and that there is a small breach in the wall (created by consistent pounding of dragonfire from the Liosan side).
Lightfall here is … odd. I picture it as a cascading waterfall of light, spilling out from a vast sea in behind, with a small pool at the base that washes against the Shore and merges with the surrounding sea of darkness.
The Shore itself is like a wide spit of beach leading to the fall.
Because, Captain, there is only one way through. This stretch of beach. A thousand paces wide. Only here is the wall scarred and thin from past wounds. Only here can they hope to break the barrier. We bar this door, Captain, and we save your world.
The berm is one of the fortifications that they make on the beach.
Twenty or more paces up from the strand, the forest edge had been transformed. Trees cut down, trenches dug in banked ripples facing the imminent breach in Lightfall.
There is a famous beach in Croatia that immediately springs to mind called Zlatni Rat. If you imagine the breach as the discoloured section at the base of the picture, and then a line of fortifications stretching back to the forest edge, that might help. Or make things worse. Who knows ;)
Thanks Mayhem and Fid. That does help alot. I have another question. Kilava’s motivation for seeing Starvald Demelain opened?
She helped her people get out of the Refugium and they are now hiding north of Lether. But why does she now want to see the Elient get through? What did I miss?
Is it to counteract what she thinks Olar Ethil’s motivations is?
@Hodor2 I think Kilava’s motivation is that the dragon will be needed to weaken/slow down Korabas while the Bonehunters and co. have time to set up a protection around Kamisod so they can chain her.
This isn’t a spoiler per se, but there isn’t really a better spot. I had a nice chat with Steven last night at ConFusion in Detroit and he wanted me to mention that he is almost through to the end of “Fall of Light”.
Thanks for letting us know, Steven :)
Has anybody seen any info on when the reread restarts?
Brys brought up the identity of Malakai in the OST Chapter 3 thread, so I thought I would post here on this subject.
It was my belief that Malakai is Cutter (originally Crokus). Malakai seems a more menacing figure than we recall Cutter/Crokus being, but remember that the point of view we get of Malakai is from Antsy, who sees everything as more threatening than it probably is.
@95: Cutter/Crokus? Never thought about that! I don’t think so, but I don’t have real arguments. I’m a lazy reader for features and time-geography-stuff (apart from the timeline is not important mantra), but to me it doesn’t feel right. I’m doing my first reread of OST right now and have just entered book 3, so maybe I’ll have another idea later…
@88 Mayhem
ah, Zlatni Rat! I’d forgotten the name, but it really is this beautiful :-). And it helps me visualising Lightfall, so, thanks!
@92 Stevenhalter
as it isn’t a spoiler and the read is on again, I would suggest you post your news on the main thread, which is better read then this one. I guess many people would be very happy to read it :-)
@Wilbur
I don’t think that it’s Cutter. If memory serves, OST takes place at the same time as TCG (basically) and Cutter is travelling to Itko Kan to try and find Apsalar at the fishing village where this all started, which he does.
What’s up with the previous spoiler thread showing just a small part of the messages?
@100
These threads were around for years, with only occasional use. Most of the missing messages were spam that got deleted.
Does make for odd reading when you are comment 101 of 94 ;)
Sooooooooooooooo…. anybody home?
Any ETA for continuing the re-read?
@103: Sorry for the wait–Bill’s going to be on vacation and traveling for the next couple of weeks, but Amanda is doing her best to have a new post in soon (possibly for Friday). The Reread should definitely be back up and running regularly by early August, as long as all goes according to plan!
Thank you Tor, Amanda, Bill, and the Malazan family commenters…I recently finished both series and know that the experience was enriched by following each chapter with the analysis provided in the reread summaries and comments. Thank you all! My son (who gave me GotM a year ago for my birthday) delighted me with FoD this year. I’ve hunted everywhere for a reread…is it on the horizon?
@105, they’ll probably finish the B&KB novellas first and then do FOD. Unless they’re waiting for FOL to come out next year (probably?).
I think that after the B&KB novellas they will return to ICE first, since Blood and Bones and Assail haven’t been done yet. :)
By then Fall of Light should be out, I guess.
So, Forge of Darkness C1… Since there isn’t too much spoilery stuff to get into as of yet, let me just point to the ice metaphor and just how much mileage SE gets out of it: Not only is it pertinent immediately, to the situation in Kharkanas, but also can be applied to Draconus and his deal with Errastas. Now, stick with me for a moment, ice, as always in this series, should draw our mind to the Jaghut, which is pretty obvious from Draconus’ plans for his son. To take it one step further though, the combination of it with rot and treachery, and this is a bit of a stretch, points me towards Lether, and, in conjunction with the mention of Azathanai, Errastas (who we will see in the coming chapters).
Is this too much of a stretch?