Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Rewatch: “Sons of Mogh”

@9 tbob

No kidding, I can’t like this episode AT ALL. Don’t like someone’s attitude? Wipe their mind. Okay, on Bab 5 they did this to like murderers and the like, but here? If someone wants to die, let them. It took us a couple hundred years to overcome the puritanical attitude towards this in Canada, but comeone, personal freedom should be recognized at least to that extent in the future.

Yeah, once Martok admitted Worf to his House, I was expected Kurn to reappear during the Dominion War.

KRAD, I was always glad to you followed up with it in the Gorkon books.

Earlier in the rewatch the Prophets/wormhole aliens were castigated as “mental rapists” for interfering with the Grand Nagus. I found that a little odd at the time – applying the moral values of linear entities to non-linear beings and judging them by our standards. Surely our would-be heros are performing exactly the kind of psychic violation that would be akin to rape?

Nothing can save this episode for me. It is good for the reasons that you described, KRAD, however, the ending completely negates anything that happened prior to it. How is that honorable at all? It would have been a far better episode had Kurn and Worf gone to stop the Klingons from mining the territory and Kurn had been killed fighting them, thus regaining his honor. The next few episodes and indeed far into the future of the character of Worf would have been him coming to terms with that, realizing his brother reached Sto’Vo’kor (I think), but realizing the impact that his condemnation of the Klingon invasion of Cardassian space had severe consequences and ultimately cost his brother his life. It would have been bitter sweet later when he ragained his honor and realized he wished Kurn was there to see it. I just don’t see how doing what they did was a better choice than almost anything else and it ruins the entire episode for me (except for Sisko ripping everybody a new one).

@20 Is there a quotable statistic on that? Because I have known literally dozens of suicidal people, and not ONE of them has ever stopped at a single attempt.

I disapprove of this and much of Klingon culture, but I have to admit that I’m flabbergasted by all the people saying it doesn’t make sense. Socieities obsessed with war, honor, and death having some form of redemptive suicide is hardly rare, and it seems to fit the package of Klingon values quite well.

IDIC be damned. When people try to cover their own stupidity with “culture,” they should have it pointed out to them. Riker did just that with Worf when his back was broken, and good for him for doing it.

#35

You’re painting with quite a broad brush there. I’ve nothing against the cultural differences of a person’s appearance, their religion, art, politics, what they do in the privacy of their own homes, etc. But when it comes to individual cases of needless death (including rituals involving suicide or honor killings) or the oppression of others, I mostly definitely draw a line.

And if that makes me an ethnocentric troglodyte, then so be it. I’m not ready to surrender social progress in the warped name of cultural sensitivity. People need to be shown examples of better ways, just as Kirk often did.

People need to be shown examples of better ways, just as Kirk often did.

Kirk (especially 60’s era Kirk) was a troglodyte who imposed his views on other cultures, which made creating a character like Picard very much necessary.

The Klingons don’t view death as a wrong course of action. Maybe they’ll evolve to another viewpoint, some day. Or maybe they won’t. Who are we to judge? Shouldn’t we respect each culture’s own evolutionary process?

That’s why they call it the ‘prime directive’.

@38: It isn’t a violation of moral relativity to judge the actions of another culture by your own morals, because a core principle of moral relativity is that not only are other people entitled to their morality, but you are entitled to your own morality. You have just as much right to make a decision about how ethical a given action is, and to express that opinion, as anyone. And if you think that the actions of another culture are immoral, then of course you have the right to try and talk them out of it or express your views on the matter. If it is a part of your own morality to make every attempt to stop death, and it is part of the morality of another person to accept and even engage in death, then by refusing to act according to your own moral judgement, you aren’t putting their moral judgement on equal footing to your own, you’re putting it on greater footing. You are taking an action that you believe to be unethical because of the moral outlook of another person. That is completely contrary to the concept of moral relativity, regardless of what culture you are from.

Do you think that when Worf asked Riker to participate in the suicide ritual in TNG after he broke his back, that Riker ought to have acceeded because it was part of Klingon culture, even if it violated his own personal ethics?

Do you think that when Worf asked Riker to participate in the suicide ritual in TNG after he broke his back, that Riker ought to have acceeded because it was part of Klingon culture, even if it violated his own personal ethics?

Pretty much. And that’s exactly what would have happened, had Riker not read the Klingon Code more thoroughly.

But then, he discovered that only a Klingon’s blood relative could perform the ritual, therefore putting the responsibility on Alexander’s shoulders.

#42

And this is where it gets even more complicated. Alexander is part human and was first instilled with a decidedly non-Klingon attitude by his half-human mother. What should he have done had his father asked for his help in killing him?

@44

It would probably be a brutal choice for him. But then again, life-changing choices aren’t supposed to be easy. We’ll never know, since Worf backed out of this issue on Ethics.

EDIT:

That last comment was a response to 43. ChristopherLBennett‘s above paragraph.

Geez, man, you might want to give it a little bit longer to think over, eh?

Sorry, I tend to go 100 mph whenever I write.

1: Its hard to just dismiss Kurn’s stated intentions as an isolated story in his culture, becasue there seems to an official ritual in Klingon culture for just the sort of situation Kurn found himself in. Not that he has to perform the ritual, but the fact that it is there nonetheless signifies an importanat point.

2: Riker in Ethics, unlike Odo,Dax, Bashier and the rest did not seek to PREVENT Worf from trying to kill himself. He just didn’t help him to do it. Sure its no different in the practical sense, as Worf needed his help to do it, but its a major difference in the sense of the Prime Directive. If its a Bajoran ruled station, fine, Bajorian law. But if it was a Starfleet station, it most certainly does not stand well with other past epsiodes where the Prime Directive was invoked.

3: Speaking of past epsiodes, remember “Half a life” from TNG? Where Deanna’s mum fell in love with an alien scientis, who was forced to comitt ritual suicide by his culture after reaching a certain age, ala Logan’s Run. Its striking how similar the situation is. Let me repeat what Krad had to say about the Prime Directive in that epsiode:

Amusingly, even though the Prime Directive itself is only mentioned once by Picard, this is one of the best PD episodes. Picard can’t interfere, and what’s more, he shouldn’t. Cultures don’t evolve overnight and they don’t do so capriciously — more to the point, they can’t change overnight, either. Lwaxana gives an example at one point of a tradition on Betazed that women would wear wigs with small animals in them, until one woman decided that it was ridiculous and stopped. But even that change didn’t happen right away. The Enterprise interfering would damage the culture, and even their offering asylum to Timicin causes major problems on the world.

Now, the Klingons are not an isolated race, they are an intersteller empire so its not quite as apt. But its the same idea. The only difference was that Timicin had request Asylum, which Picard had to answer. Kurn did not want aslyum, and its not like Word was exactly eager to follow through on the ritual.

Honestly if it was a Starfleet only station scenario, to have a Star Fleet officer burst into a room to stop a private ritual between two Klingons would scream Prime Directive violation to me. Especially when Kurn did not request their help. Though of course we don’t know if Chris’s assertion of mental illness is covered as an exception to the Prime Directive. My guess is its probably not.

Not a single word you wrote refutes my assertion that by the standards that Starfleet officers set themselves in the Star Trek Universe, what Dax and Basher and Sisko did was a gross violation of the Prime Directive.

I do happen to agree with much of what you wrote, especially about Klingon culture being hypocritical. But the thing is, those arguments are not relevant in any way. Its a private ritual between two Klingons, so the Prime Directive very much applies. The station crew drastically over-stepped their boundaries. Unless of course, it is Bajorian law, not Star Fleet/Federation law on the station. Than that gets grayer.

@55: Chris”

The Prime Directive is more about not interfering in the laws, politics, and culture of an alien world. But Worf and Kurn weren’t on Qo’noS — they were on DS9, a territory of Bajor. So didn’t that give them an obligation to respect the laws and culture of that world?

Thats why I specifically mentioned that the Bajoran ownership of the station complicated matters. But if Kurn and Worf had beamed to a klingon ship or some other place, the essential argument holds. And anyway, I strongly suspect that Federation law might have some relvance here. Remember Captive Pursuit:

SISKO: I’ve agreed to release him.
O’BRIEN: But sir, Tosk is an intelligent, living being.
SISKO: It’s their custom, Chief. Under the prime directive, we have no right to interfere.
KIRA: What if Tosk were to request asylum?
SISKO: If he asks for it.

Ds9 was no Hunter/ Tosk planet either. Yet the Prime Directive was brought up there.

Not really. It’s not about saying “morality is an illusion and all practices are equally valid.” It’s about countering cultural imperialism, saying we don’t have the right to force change on other cultures. That doesn’t mean that nothing other cultures do is ever wrong; it just means that the only way they’ll change for the better is if the impetus to change comes from within, if they make the change for their own reasons rather than because they were pressured into it by outsiders.

But that doesn’t mean those outsiders can’t at least express an opinion, that the Federation can’t try to engage with them diplomatically and offer alternatives without imposing them by force. The Prime Directive forbids us from forcing our will on others, but it is not an excuse to avoid forming ethical opinions altogether.

I believe the average viewer is smart enough to udderstand that Dax,Bashier and Sisko did far more then express an opinion on Worfs actions whne they got Odo to stop it. The carried out their opinion so it became an action. Forcefully. Its almost exactly like the Half A Life scenario. Except from a Star Fleet perspective, they broke their own rule.

Rancho @57

The problem here, and the reason I can’t agree with you, is that it wasn’t a purely private Klingon ceremony. It was a Starfleet officer and a Klingon. Whatever values Worf brought with him must be subsumed by Federation law. As a result, Kurn must find someone else to perform the ceremony (which he wouldn’t be able to – much like Warf couldn’t find someone else for his request).

I agree somewhat. I would have expected Worf to be kicked out of Star Fleet for his actions. Or at least severly censured. Just because its the Klingon culture, doesn’t mean its Starfleets culture. But thats a far cry from stopping the action from happening if its been done on Worfs private time. Its like when Worf killed Duras, the Klingon politicians didn’t bat an eye, whereas Picard gave him a black mark.

#59

This has turned into an interesting discussion. That’s for sure.

Have there been any novels that have brought up the topic of reform/progressive ideals within Klingon culture? Maybe something like… SPOILER ALERT… what happens with Ferengi culture through the course of this series?

Excellent discussion!

I have been waiting for you to get to this episode because like so many of you, I enjoyed the first 37 minutes and detested the last 5.

@61 CLB: You have made some excellent points. It always bothered me that Worf tried to complete the ritual on DS9. Back in “Reunion” when Worf killed Duras, he essentially executed him without trial or investigation. That would go against all kinds of Starfleet/Federation rules, but because he did it on a Klingon ship, the most Picard could to was reprimand him. DS9 is a Federation/Bajoran station, so any act there would be subject to its laws. As a former Starfleet security officer (and as someone who very recently was giving Odo grief about not prosecuting lawbreakers) there is no way Worf could have thought he’d get away with killing Kurn on the station. No way.

My other big issue with this was Dax and Bashir’s role in the ending, but many of you have addressed that so I won’t rehash that.

Many of you have said that after joining Martok’s house, Worf should have “rescued” Kurn/Rodek in some way. But, I wonder what Martok would have thought had he known what Worf did to his brother. I have the distinct feeling this is something Worf would have wanted to keep from Martok, I can’t see him approving at all. Martok became the quintessential Klingon in every aspect, so I can’t help but wonder WWMD about this whole situation. Methinks Martok would have told Kurn to suck it up and pull himself up by the bootstraps the way he did years ago.

I have a direct question for Krad that I have been wanting to ask since reading A Burning House years ago… How big do you think Klingon Houses are? I don’t believe there is an in-canon answer. Was the House of Mogh just Worf, Alexander and Kurn? Is the House of Martok just Martok, Sirella and their children (plus Worf & Company later on)? If so, it seems kind of inconsequential and not at all the big deal they make them seem. Plus, there would have to be millions (billions?) of Houses if they are just immediate family yet Worf always acts like he knows everyone’s House.

@65

So that would mean that most Klingons are “House-less?” Would common, non-noble Klingons then align themselves with whomever they work for/live under or do they have no affiliation at all? Do they refer to themselves as “Bill, son of Tom” like we are used to hearing or are they just “Bill?”

I’m trying to fathom the impact of the Sons of Mogh losing everything as Kurn so dramatically puts it. Were there others affected, possibly those who worked the land or manned the ships that Kurn talks about losing? Kurn implies that there are others, like when he says “It was even said that if Gowron died, the leadership of the Council might have passed to someone from the House of Mogh.” Who is is he talking about? Himself? Worf (there’s no way anyone is nominating Worf for Chancellor unless he kills Gowron himself)? Alexander?

If a House really is just immediate family (as opposed to having many others who align with them) then that makes Kurn’s “I can’t go on living” rant nothing more than a powerful man being upset that he’s now a poor nobody. To which case, the honorable thing to do would be to work hard to regain one’s honor from those who took it, not to have your brother kill you.

While I feel Worf had every right to follow his brother’s wishes, it was definitely criminal to do it on DS9’s territory, which adheres to Starfleet and Bajoran law.

On the other hand, I feel that if an episode can provoke this much discussion and debate, it definitely did something right. I feel there’s a difference between reviewing an episode based on its artistic merits, and judging the actions of its characters. I would never take points off of Sons of Mogh because they chose to mindwipe Kurn. To me, that only shows Bashir is too obsessed with solving every single problem. And wisely enough, the producers realized it too, as they would challenge Bashir’s drive later in The Quickening.

One of my top rules of screenwriting: allow a character room to make mistakes. That helps to raise the stakes.

Except the mindwipe was Dax’s idea, not Bashir’s. She’s the one who first suggested, “What if there was a way for you to kill your brother without killing him?”

But in this case, Dax also has a reason to voice the mindwipe option. She’s dealt with the guilt of Klingon bloodshed and revenge ever since Blood Oath. She might want to consider a less fatal option while finding an optimum solution.

But I’ll admit the ramifications could have been addressed down the line. The problem is Paramount was still hesitant to follow through on a more serialized Star Trek. DS9 was still very much episodic.

For instance, the O’Brien episode Hard Time would face the same challenge later in the season, as we never saw O’Brien dealing with the implanted memories after the aforementioned episode.

@71

Maybe hesitant is the wrong word, but it’s worth remembering that at that point, none of the DS9 writers had any prior experience writing on a serialized level. This was new ground to them, and they were still getting used to it.

With so many threads on the air, it was easy for them to forget to follow up on something that deserved more closure.

Case in point, the multi-episode arcs they wound up doing in the later seasons were brutal exercises.

Actually, Bashir prescribes anti-depressants for O’Brien in “Hard Time”, only a few episodes after this one. Whether Kurn would have agreed to take them, well, that’s something else again, but the concept was there.

I really didn’t care a great deal for this episode, mainly due to the fact that Kurn’s memories were erased.  When I was watching this episode, I was hoping that Kurn would in one way or another redeem himself by the end, or that they would leave the potential for Kurn to redeem himself sometime down the road.  Instead, we get a memory wipe.

What I *do* love a great deal about this episode is how Kurn is exactly right in his criticisms towards Worf.  Worf really was only thinking of himself – he was not thinking about how his actions and decisions would affect Kurn.  I have had mixed feelings about Worf on DS9 in general (although that’s a different topic) but this was one of the few times in which I felt someone showed just how selfish Worf could really be.

When Kurn notices how soft the furniture is in Worf’s quarters (he made the same remark in Sins of the Father), what he really means is that he thinks Worf has gone soft. He practically says as much when he voices his dismay at being alive after waking up in the Infirmary, and can’t believe that Worf didn’t even try to fight off Dax and Odo for interfering in the Mauk-To-Vor ritual.

Obviously I am late to the party, but I have to say this thread has been the most entertaining and thought-provoking set of comments I’ve seen on any episode so far. I’ll make my comments brief, since the ground seems to have been covered fairly well by this point:….. the moment when Worf plunged the dagger into his brother’s chest was the most surprising thing I have seen in a first watch of any Trek episode. It was awesome, I thought, that the Trek powers-that-be finally had the courage to take an episode in that direction. I thought the rest of the episode would be about consequences, and then Dax rushes in to save the day. Curses. For me, the episode was done at that point. The One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest ending was just filler.

I like this episode and dislike “Change of Heart / Rules of Engagement” for pretty much all of the reasons you stated.  Add to that, this was already a big slap in Worf’s face — albeit a good episode — and I didn’t like how “Change of Heart” and “Rules of Engagement” broke the rules of war: you don’t keep hacking at a man after he’s down

This has been a very entertaining and thought-provoking thread of discussion.  I agree with the consensus that the ending to the episode is disappointing, and seems to have been a rushed conclusion to a complex episode.  But as far as exploring deep questions about cultural and moral relativism, I admire the episode for really pushing things.  There’s a lot of hutzpah involved in even tackling differing beliefs and attitudes about suicide.  

As someone who has been out on suicide watch in the past, I agree with the notion that not exploring a path of mental health treatment to help Kern deal was a missed opportunity.  It’s another case of Deep Space Nine being ahead of its time in the 90s but coming up short in the 2020s.

Yet while I also believe that there are aspects of ethics and morality that should be universal, and that we shouldn’t be afraid as individuals to point out wrongs that are practiced by any culture, I think we do have to take care.  It’s very easy to be so assured in our own moral certainty that we end up becoming too judgmental, perhaps even self-righteous, to the point where we aren’t engaging with the culture we disagree with in a healthy way and undermine are own arguments.

My wife was born and raised on the other side of the world from me, in a culture very different from my own.  There are aspects of what she believes that I don’t agree with, that are against what I believe.  I’ve had discussions and debates with her that have easily turned into lectures, thrown out judgment labels like “cowardly” and “hypocritical”, and all that ever did was undermine my arguments.  

Indeed, in retrospect, there was an air of imperialism there, and I realize now that toeing the line between relativism and absolutism can be tricky, and there’s no better way to fail in persuading someone than to judge their own cultural-based ethical beliefs in totally negative terms.  It’s much more productive to try and understand why their culture believes what they believe.  That helps get to the core of the issues, and can begin productive dialogue.  That’s a very difficult and time-consuming process, but I think it’s that kind of cultural exploration and understanding that is at the heart of Star Trek.

I think that’s why Picard ultimately says to Crusher that Worf can’t take the journey she wants him to take in ethics, as that journey would take a long time, and the inertia of Worf’s perceived cultural imperative isn’t going to allow the time needed in that circumstance, not when there was a medical alternative that involved high risk/high reward – an option that fit his ethos, and an option many in our own culture would take.  In Kern’s case, however, that journey could’ve been explored a lot more imho.

I understand that Klingon isn’t a real culture, so perhaps it feels easy or more justifiable to judge it, call it stupid, point out its warrior machismo death-cult ethos and call it stupid, cowardly, hypocritical.  But there are cultures in the world today that have similar views on suicide as an honorable way out.  And yeah, we know and accept the psychology behind suicide, we know it’s almost never a rational decision and that those who contemplate it should be given help.  But someone from that kind of culture won’t be convinced to take that journey by making blanket statements about moral and ethical failures in their culture.

Okay, I said my peace.  Live long and prosper. :)