Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Alice explored the mysteries of Helaran through a sisterly lens. This week, Shallan brings out the best in a ragtag group of misfits who just want to make right. Also she glows or something, it’ll be great.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 20: The Coldness of Clarity
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: The Frostlands
Symbology: Pattern, Jezrien, Battar
IN WHICH night falls; Shallan’s caravan approaches smoke and finds wreckage, survivors; their subtle scouting is immediately discovered; Shallan negotiates alliance with a second caravan; bandits are ahead, deserters behind; arrows fall; Shallan commands resistance; Shallan parleys with the deserters; things seem more than they are; better natures are summoned; Gaz leads a heroic charge; Pattern appreciates Shallan’s lies.
Quote of the Week:
“Would you protect instead of kill, if you had the choice?” Shallan asked. “Would you rescue instead of rob if you could do it over again? Good people are dying as we speak here. You can stop it.”
Those dark eyes of his seemed dead. “We can’t change the past.”
“I can change your future.”
Shallan’s first proposal, imploring the deserters to protect others and find glory, sounds exactly like she’s recruiting for the Windrunners. It seems a set of instincts are taking over that go beyond her sudden facility with magic.
Commentary: Old “friends” and new “friends” abound in this chapter! In the wait between The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, the question of what happened to Gaz grew more and more pressing. Sanderson coyly pointed out at signings and readings that Gaz mysteriously vanished most of the way through The Way of Kings, and further inquiries were met with a solid RAFO. Now he’s returned, surrounded by bandit deserter scum, and he’s… suddenly a pretty good guy. It’s he who leads the charge into battle, when Vathah refuses to be moved by Shallan’s oratory. I doubt anyone would have suspected the Gaz of Way of Kings, cowardly, bitter, petty and cruel, of leading any charge into anything, especially not into superior forces in defense of a pair of helpless caravans that he’d been planning to rob.
If you recall, our few chapters from Gaz’s point of view suggested that he was haunted by paranoia induced by his missing eye, and that said paranoia felt like it was on the edge between magical and psychological. But he seems particularly vulnerable to Shallan’s persuasion, to her proto-Radiant recruitment speak. I’m not saying that Gaz is a good candidate for Radiance, but I am saying that you have to be broken to be rebuilt.
We also meet Tyn the lighteyes woman with the long coat and sword, though she won’t be given a name until next chapter. She is instantly amused by Shallan, probably because she sees through what’s happening. The onslaught of bandits keeps any deeper analysis at bay, but she still deftly deflects Shallan’s initial power play:
“I offer you my protection,” Shallan found herself saying.
“Your protection?” the woman said, turning back to Shallan, sounding baffled.
“You may accept me and mine into your camp,” Shallan said. “I will see to your safety tonight. I will need your service after that to convey me to the Shattered Plains.”
The woman laughed. “You are gutsy, whoever you are. You can join our camp, but you’ll die there with the rest of us!”
Shallan falls back on the first trick she learned from Jasnah, establishing a social order with her at the top, but Tyn is too in tune with the pragmatic reality to accept that this “Brightlady’s” so-called “protection” is worth anything in the middle of a fight. Turns out she’s wrong, but no one can fault her for that. There will be plenty to fault her for later.
I was impressed, in this chapter, with how Sanderson once again used the breakneck pace of his writing to mask the signs of Shallan’s surgebinding. The chapter moves fast, so it’s easy to miss this as you’re pulled forward: “She took a deep breath. Bluth raised his sphere, looking at her, and grunted as if surprised.” She’s inhaled Stormlight, but Sanderson doesn’t have to say that. Because Shallan doesn’t know what she’s doing, Sanderson can make it subtle.
This chapter reminded me that Roshar has multiple moons! I forgot about that entirely. No idea if that’s relevant to anything, since this supercontinent-dominated world probably doesn’t care quite as much about tidal forces as some other planets might.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: “A little like the mink wandering into the whitespine’s den and asking when dinner is…” ROSHAR HAS MINKS?!
DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A CREATURE THAT CAN SURVIVE A BOULDER-HURRICANE TO YOU?!
Ars Arcana: “You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.” Shallan practices true, full Lightweaving in this chapter. Not just illusion, but illusion for the purpose of psychological transformation. And that is an awesome power to have. By presenting herself and her subjects as the people she wants them to be, unrealized versions of themselves, she actualizes their potential. She shows how, even if she never masters the lightning-throwing Soulcasting that Jasnah is so skilled with, a Lightweaver can be a potent force on the battlefield. She also does instinctively something she won’t be able to recreate for most of the book by Lightweaving on the fly. Most of the time, Shallan needs to use her drawings as a crutch when she creates illusions. This time she simply draws on her ideal visions of herself and of the soldiers before her.
Heraldic Symbolism: Once again, this is a two-Herald chapter. Shallan is commanding, leading, inspiring soldiers to protect others, and is therefore graced by Jezrien. Battar, I understand less well. Battar is Wise/Careful, and I can’t see Shallan doing anything carefully in this chapter. Perhaps Battar looks over instinct?
This week was an especially cool chapter, and leads into another week of exciting Shallan developments. She’s moving and growing with every page, making her a welcome relief from the quagmire of the Warcamps. Next week, Alice will catalog the aftermath of the battle. In the meantime, I am awarding 15 bonus points to anyone who puts a Rosharan Mink meme in the comments.
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
Oh, yes Gaz – truly unbelievable, what he does here, especially considering his again cowardly moments later (when he first meets Kaladin). But I think it does fit. I have more problems with later portrayals of him, where he chuckles and seems good-natured.
So is Shallan really transforming the men magically or is it “just” persuasion, triggered by her superior appearance? I mean, can she really more than inspire people, can she really forcefully change them if they are brocken?
And … question about exclamations: “Kelek’s breath …”
it’s used four times in WoR, here in this chapter by Tvlakv, twice by Teft and once by Shallan on other occasions.
It’s always used associated with surprise. So what is so surprising abouth Kelek’s breath? Any ideas?
I like your words.
Yeah, no idea how a rodent like a mink could survive on Roshar (outside of Shinovar, but I don’t get the sense that mink are weird Shin animals like “chickens”).
I’m not sure why Battar is in the chapter heading, either. Battar is the patron of the Elsecallers, who are most strongly associated with travel to Shadesmar, but Shallan never went to Shadesmar or used her Transformation surge in this chapter, just her lightweaving. Wisdom and care never seem to be appopriate characteristics for a Shallan chapter. Intelligence and bravery, yes. Wisdom and care? Not so much.
I was so psyched to see Gaz redeeming himself somewhat, or at least on the road to redemption. He’s not a good guy, but I never got the sense that he was a BAD guy, either. I always felt that Kaladin was too wrapped up in his own self-pity to fully consider Gaz’s situation. We already knew Gaz was in monetary trouble, we knew he was uncomfortable with being in charge of sending thousands of men to their deaths as distractions for the Parshendi, and I had a sense that he wasn’t an inherently bad man at his core, just someone who had been beaten down by life so hard that he had lost his empathy. i.e.- he was Broken.
I may claim the bonus points. I agree with Carl that the mink is an improbable wild creature for the rocky, windswept planet. I suspect that BWS mentioned mink but meant rock badgers or hyraxes. The latter are similar, small, furry rodents who live among rocks and seek shelter in rock clefts. They are mentioned with this characteristic in the Bible (the Hebrew, shafan).
“She took a deep breath. Bluth raised his sphere, looking at her, and grunted as if surprised.” So Bluth noticed Shallan drawing stormlight out of his sphere. I wonder what he thought of her abilities.
Yay, the reread is back!
Two quick thoughts:
1) Shallan’s speech to the deserters sounds a lot like the first ideal. I can buy the squires of the orders being initiated like this :)
2) More importantly this quote: “You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.” made me think of something else. What if the orders have 3 sets of abilities, 2 given by each surge (Lightweaving and Soulcasting for Shallan) and a third given by the interaction of those two surges that is trully unique: Transformation in this case which would combine Soulcasting and Lightweaving. I think this both fits AND makes the orders more interesting and relevant. Plus, more magic = entertaining magic :)
Bwahahaha! Ok, I’m sorry but that mink meme totally had me laughing maniacally. People are looking at me oddly and I don’t even care. That was great! Carl wins the internet for today.
Hey everyone!
Just a couple thoughts (maybe a few, we’ll see :)).
1. It could be argued that Shallan did indeed use “Transformation” in this chapter as #6 points out Pattern makes note of this. Who says transformation only has to be physical?
2. I was very intrigued this chapter by Pattern’s continued assertion that Shallan was both truths and lies. Could this be why Cryptics aka truthspren aka liespren are the spren for the Lightweavers? Because of their fascination with truths and lies and how they can overlap? Think about how Lightweavers are characterized as primarily artists. Aren’t artists adept at telling truth and lies at the same time? This could also give us a clue as to the type of person that would be attractive to a Cryptic; someone that is adept at both telling truths and lies, so someone that is only a good liar would be horrible at being a Lightweaver. Think about how much emphasis Pattern places on Shallan telling the truth to progress. I seem to recall Pattern mentioning that it was the lies that caught his attention. Maybe it was also her facility at being truthful that got him to stick around. You could take this a bit farther and say that it was her total denial, in essence lying to herself, of the truth of her mothers death which caused their bond to almost sever. I also want to take this truth/lie thing yet further again and say that this could also overlap into the surges associated with Cryptics. Which leads me to…
3. I just finished reading Emporer’s Soul this past weekend. I won’t spoil it for anyone that has yet to read it; however the magic system used by the viewpoint character gave me an idea on how/why and Soulcasting works and possibly even Lightweaving. Before you can Soulcast something you have to understand its Cognitive and Spiritual identity. If things were only represented in the Physical realm then it would be easy to just Transform one thing into another. However, since all things exist in three places simultaneously you have to deal with the other two identies before causing the third to change. On the ship Shallan appealed to the identity of the ship, something that is not alive yet has an identity. Something that over the course of years of serving wanted to be helpful. By speaking truths to the ship’s Spiritual and Cognitive identities she was able to manipulate its Physical manifestation, in essence she caused the ship to lie to itself. Conversely look at Stick. Shallan was not able to speak any sort of truth to the spiritual or cognitive aspect of Stick. Therefore Stick wasn’t interested in changing for her. However, had Shallan been able to understand Stick and its past/history/motivations/whatever she may have been able to convince Stick that it should want to change. Hopefully that all makes sense. It did in my head at least. Illumination, maybe not to this extreme, is also about the interplay of truths and lies. Through the applications of Lightweaving we have seen Shallan has basically painted 3D holograms with stormlight. Again each example we’ve seen so far has some basis in both truth and lies. She has used a template of herself (truth) and changed something to make herself look different (lie).
Sheesh, that looks like a wall of text so I’ll stop here. Please let me know if anyone thinks I’m all the way out in left field with my theory!
I’ve been waiting for this chapter. The moment I read Pattern informing Shallan of her ability to transform and the implied connection it has to Lightweaving I was hooked. Sanderson truly did something wonderful with the Lightweavers. The information we have about them gives the immediate idea their abilities aren’t actionable. Even Shallan herself feels that way. I know the other Surge is Soulcasting, but the focus of the order is on their illusory capabilities.
Same idea goes for Kaladin and the Windrunners. His use of the Surges, the proper use of them, seems to be a melding of the two forces. Yes he can manipulate gravitational pull and effect the surface of objects to bond them together, but the skill of walking on walls is a merger of them both. I was saddened, however, that this is the only time she uses her Surges in their proper manner. The rest of the book is her fumbling around trying to use a tenth of the power she’s supposed to have.
At the end of the book Adolin sees Sadeas looking at a faded painting of fanciful mythological creatures and describes one of them as – an enormous minklike creature with a mane of hair that bursts out around and behind its head – Sounds like a lion to me but the idea of a lion-mink is amusing (last airbender anyone?). It seems that the Rosharan concept of animals is a bit skewed from what we would expect.
Chicken seems to mean any kind of bird and mink may well be any kind of furry quadruped.
Vladz @6. I love your second point. I hope that is the case. That would be great. Hopefully, somebody can ask Brandon. It would be a great way to make each Order unique. Without that “blended” Surge, the Orders are not as distinctive since two orders can use the surge of gravity, 2 orders can soulcast, 2 orders can elsecall, etc.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Totally Crazy Theory! Could Tyn have been Battar? That would be a shocker, but Battar is one of the heralds that I haven’t seen theories of her appearing elsewhere. Alternatively, was there any tallow in the chapter?
Shallan’s ability in this chapter highlights something that is only hinted in the books: the Radiants appear to have powers that are more than just manipulating surges. Surges are physical forces, but these types of powers are more abstract. In fact, the physical surge appears to be associated with its equivalent metaphore in human nature.
For example, Kaladin has the power of leadership — specifically how he inspires Bridge 4. He holds Bridge 4 together (one surge) by giving them a sense of purpose and direction (his other surge). For Shallan, she transforms (one surge) the soldiers by changing how they see themselves (another surge).
I am not sure that we have seen this in other Radiants enough to generalize the idea. However, if this is true, this would explain while all of the Radiant types are needed. As its, a Truthseeker and an Elsecaller combined have access to the same two surges that a Lightweaver does. So why is a Lightweaver not redundant? Because the Lightweaver needs access to both surges to have this metaphorical power over humans.
Given the example of the chicken, it makes sense that the mink on Roshar is not the mink we know (and love in fur coats). It could be the term for any number of small, furry rodents. I don’t have the time to do a meme here at work, but imagine a picture of a honey badger with the caption “Who you calling a ‘mink’?”.
I like this chapter. There’s some fun stuff, as has been talked about already.
One literary aspect that I really like is the usage of light. One of these years, I am going to need to do a re-read that focuses on the Brandon’s use of metaphor, symbol, etc. Usually, I get so caught up in the story that I don’t go slow enough to think and analyze his literary aspects. This is also complicated by his own personal philosophy of writing (I think he most often describes it using the “Window metaphor” that his writing should not get in the way of the story being experiencec), which makes any specific literary aspects take backseat in his story composition.
Anyway – the use of light in this chapter is particularly interesting, as a literary symbol.
Such as:
At the beginning the sun is setting, and the light is fading (mirroring the dying hope that either caravan has in the face of 2 bandit forces, as well as being a fairly common trope of twilight being a particularly potent time for magic):
-embers don’t provide lots of light – just enough to make themselves out, not really enough to illuminate other things. Which not only makes this the perfect time for Shallan’s illusion/Illumination (making her ability to create images/sounds out of Stormlight that much more potent), but also speaks to the position of mankind in the face of the coming desolation. Without the powers bestowed by Surgebinding, the lights will go out, they are already on the way to going out.
As a necessary counterpoint to the use of light, the use of shadow also plays a role, as it is hiding the realities that these men can become. Similarly, Tyn steps forward “nearby, hidden by shadows” – this is an interesting juxtaposition, as the men by being viewed in the right light come to be more honorable, more capable, more willing to start over, whereas the more we see Tyn by the light of day, the more we realize that she is the one who truly belongs in the shadows, who refuses to allow any image of herself to be illuminated. Also interesting, that she becomes the image or shadow that Shallan will come to hide herself behind in the future.
Continuing the loss of light/hope theme:
The light vanishes, leaving her sweating, despite the fact that that normally means dropping temperature. But then she has her epiphany, which corresponds to her taking in stormlight, and feels a chill:
Shallan is their only hope, their only source of true light. Interestingly, when she then goes to confront Vathah and Gaz’s group of bandits – they are described as having both torches and sphere lanterns – but they are never described in the light of the spheres (a constant, powerful, clear light)- only by the torchlight, a “primal” or uncivilized (?) light:
And then of course, when even the torches are gone, Vathah’s “face looked even more threatening now that most of the torches had gone.”
Shallan has used all the available light to give just enough hope to those around her: “Shallan stood alone int he night, exhaling softly. No Light came out; she’d used it all.” Of course, she will then continue to use light to transform the bandits back into soldiers over the course of the rest of the book.
Then there is the last image of light:
This one is pretty interesting, because it is easy to see this one in the light of the Moons as symbols for the 3 shards – the blue moon most easily represents Honor, and it is questionable if the purple moon or the green moon are better representatives of Odium (personally, I see Salas better fitting him, and the green one representing Cultivation) – but if we assume that, then here, Salas/Odium (or Cultivation) is the only major light source, with only brief sparkles surrounding it providing additional lights (but not illumination, as stars are like embers, illuminating themselves, but not providing others with light). But even then, under Salas’s light, it is hard to be creative, it is hard to see clearly. Clarity is not found as easily.
All in all, an interesting literary device in this chapter. Words of temperature are also interesting here – we’ve seen the chills, and sweats, Shallan’s fear “boils,” one of the bandits talks of “warmth” when recalling he had once saved a woman. All juxtaposed with the lack of light/warmth at the moment/darkness.
As for the minks – there are at least rats in this world, so another mammal doesn’t seem too out of place to me, though not at all common. But it does raise the question: were the mammals all transported to Roshar (as the mythology seems to imply humans were)? Or is the mink broadly understood as a type of furry animal (possibly not a mammal as we would recognize it) who evolved on this world?
In Roshar, mink wear you as coat (which is how they survive the hurricanes).
There is also the occasional inversion of the virtues traditionally associated with the heralds: For instance, Nalan tends to show up when there is a monstrous injustice being done. Shallan’s behavior in this chapter is rather foolhardy, but miraculously, she gets away with it.
@6 like the three Lashings for Windrunners?
@13 I like that.
So Shallan has officially joined the you-think-you-will-kill-me-but-actually-you-will-join-me club. Who else is in so far? Raoden for sure.
really interessting discussion about the surges.
I agree that Shallan used the Transformation surge here. Wheter her transformation of the soul/cognitive/psyche is a merge of Lightweaving and Transformation I’m less sure of (though I really like the idea).
It could also be, that the surge Transformation really gives the ability to transform body (soulcasting) and what is done here. From BWS we know that Shallan is way more progressed in her way to become a true KR, so maybe being able to transform the soul/cognitive/psychic part of someone is of a later stage?
I do wonder how far progressed Jasnah is in her path to become a radiant. She is quite adept with her soulcasting, but I think her analytical character traits could also hinder her in the more emotional psych-transformation (if it’s not a merge of lightweaving and transformation).
Walker @13: beautifully said about how Kaladins handling of Bridge 4 reflects both his surges …
Jasuni @5: I’m not sure Shallan drew Stormlight from Bluth’s sphere, at least it’s not described as fading. I thought he raised his sphere and by its light (it was night by the time) he saw her changed appearance more clearly (Vathat says later, that Shallan looked like a queen in the night and not like a girl in tattered clothes (as she should have in undisguised truth).
Shallan does use the drawing she did earlier of herself:
When I first read this chapter, one part of me found it just a bit too incredible. I thought, “Come on, Brandon, there’s no way a teenage girl could really pull that off.” I kind of felt that way about her taking over Tvlakv’s group, too. Part of that was perhaps me just not appreciating the strengh of the Vorin lighteyes/darkeyes social construct–in my American society that at least tries not to place too much empahsis on class divisions, we’d only see Shallan as a (seemingly) naive and defenseless teenage girl, fullstop. Someone like that just taking over multiple caravans of rough characters seems ridiculous.
On a re-read, though, going slower and really taking in all the subtleties of what she does and how she does it, the ideas about Transformation as a combination of her surges as discussed, I don’t feel that way anymore, I find her ability to pull it off completely beleivable, and more than that, exhilierating to read. Plus, on this re-read I more deeply understand what the lighteyes represent to the average Vorin: greed, corruption, and laziness to those like Kaladin who have been opressed by them, but also authority, stability, nobility, and justice (whether deserved or not.) Her gambit with the deserters works because she gets them to see her as a lighteyes first, a symbol of all of those things, a defenseless teenage girl only after that, and of course she also forces them to look at her through the lens of their own guilt and longing for something better.
I just love how Brandon plays around with his themes in these chapters. As others mentioned, Lightweaving is not exhilierating action like Windrunning or Edgedancing, but all of this subtle weaving of lies and truth is really interesting and powerful, just as enjoyable to read about.
If they can have horses on Roshar, I think some places where storms are less crazy like Shinovar can harbor more animls with squishy bits and no carapace armor.
Going ahead on that, I wonder if we can convince royalty/nobility in Eastern Roshar that keeping such animals is a symbol of how sturdy your palace/house is. Now that’s an income source no one has looked at yet.
Regarding Shallan’s unusual proclivity for manipulation, I have a theory about that. What if the Nahel bond, in addition to granting Surges, also grants an intuitive understanding of certain skills connected to the spren’s essence? In other words, Shallan becomes a better lier because she’s literally got a bit of the Platonic Ideal Of Lying attached to her soul. In support of this theory, note Kaladin’s remarkable proficiency with the spear, which fails when he breaks his bond with Sylphrena.
Herb @16: Hilarious!
travyl @19
Shallan had to pick up a bit of Stormlight somewhere, she was glowing with it. But the lack of comment by Bluth about his sphere fading caught my attention also.
writelhd @21
Well put.
I really hate being late to the party. Some excellent discussion going on, though. My two bits worth:
I really like the suggestion that the bond enhances certain instincts in the individual, too – it makes sense of several of the epigraphs in Part 3. The Elsecallers had a singular aptitude for interacting with Shadesmar, far greater than the adjoining Orders (Willshapers & Lightweavers) who also had some affinity for it. Truthwatchers have “an exceeding abundance of tact,” it seems (appropriate for those who see things that others don’t; at least, it seems that caution and wisdom would be needed to determine what, and how, and when, and to whom the things they see should be made known). Stonewards were stubborn, strong, and dependable. Edgedancers were articulate and refined, as well as graceful and deadly. Lightweavers had amazing mnemonic abilities. Skybreakers had an “almost divine skill” to discern guilt and innocence. And I have the distinct impression that it’s not merely a matter of the spren seeking out individuals who already have those characteristics, but that it’s something uncanny created by the mature bond.
I’m firmly convinced that there is more to the bond than just access to two distinct Surges. We’ve mostly been given hints and nudges so far, but it seems fairly clear by now that the Surges don’t remain entirely distinct when they’re used by a Radiant. While it’s quite probable that a Lightweaver and an Elsecaller can use Soulcasting in exactly the same manner for certain things, it seems reasonable to think they can also use it in different ways by drawing on their other Surge as well. It makes so much sense – while each Order shares a Surge with two others, the unique combination of two Surges would grant unique abilities to the Order. And I’m pretty sure we’ve seen ways in which the combined Surges do far more than any single Surge.
In this case… I don’t really recall thinking about it before, but I love the suggestion made by Pattern that her use of Transformation might not be limited to the more visible Soulcasting. Here’s a thought (mostly bouncing off previous discussion, obviously): What if Soulcasting, as it’s currently understood, merely changes the Physical and Cognitive aspects of an object… but true Transformation, when done by a Lightweaver, changes the Spiritual aspect as well? (I think that’s essentially what Delat suggested @8, right?) Or more accurately, true Lightweaving melds Transformation and Illumination in such a way as to effect a change in all three Realms? (One question that might apply here: do all objects have a Spiritual aspect, or only what we think of as sentient beings – people, of whatever species?)
Bah. I’m not sure if I’m just rephrasing what others already said, or if I’m actually contributing. Maybe I should just shut up and go to sleep.
Mammals like rats and minks could survive the storms by hiding underground (although making tunnels could be more difficult if the ground is mainly stone and not soil).
Oh, yeah! The mink!
Shallan is used to mink from her home in Jah Keved, which is quite a ways west of here. It’s quite probable that in the more mountainous area where she grew up, there is more shelter, whether burrows in soil sheltered from the storms, or crevices in the rocks. The storms are not as fierce there as they are here on the eastern edge of the continent, so there probably are more/better sheltered nesting places there.
Wetlandernw @26
I’d say you expanded on the concept and summed it up nicely. And the theory makes sense. However…the idea of the Radiants having the ability to effect spiritual (mental) changes in sentient beings is a bit troublesome. To me, anyway. Don’t mess with my head, dontcha know. Yeah, I get it, the Radiants only used their mind-altering abilities for noble purposes, right? Or maybe not?
Could these mind-altering abilities be tied to the Recreance somehow? I’m not seeing a clear connection though. If the common folk got tired of Radiants messing with their heads, it would be difficult for them to have overthrown the Radiants. And that’s not our understanding of how the Recreance played out. In Dalinar’s time-travel vision, the Radiants (2 orders, I don’t recall?) threw down their Blades and Plate. Were they having some kind of mass moral awakening with respect to messing with sentient gray matter? I don’t think so, because they were retreating from a battle, weren’t they?
Any thoughts from y’all on that topic?
Re: Mammals and birds on Roshar
An Axehound is clearly not a dog, yet shares some physical traits and other characteristics with the mammals we know and love. We are reading the -hound suffix and thinking dog. That’s OK and was probably intentional.
The chickens, however, (and wasn’t there another bird mentioned somewhere too?) appear to be a non-native species, like our chickens. They weren’t described as having gossamer wings or some other characteristic that would differentiate them from our chickens. There are pigs around too, that appear to be our version. They weren’t described as having a snouts of hardened crem or some such. I’m definitely open to the possibility of non-native animals on Roshar, no problem. But I don’t think we have enough evidence to say conclusively that the chickens, pigs and minks (regardless of whether it was a mink or a honeybadger) are non-native, even if I do like the idea. Please feel free to correct me if I’m not remembering things accurately.
I think it is possible that animals native in Shinovar (or at least coming from there) might thrive in wider areas of Highstorm-exposed Roshar. I think it’s not so much a problem of shelter – you can survive in lee-ward faced crevices and such, but more a question of finding appropriate food. On earth rats survive sewer tunnels, not the most hospitable environement either.
@29 Ways. Spiritual Transformation sounds a lot similar to WoT-Turning – if not used in the right way. I’m definitely against that as well.
@29, I believe all proper birds are called chickens in Roshar. I think there’s a WoB that if you pay attention, the description of ‘chickens’ doesn’t always line up with what a chicken looks like. Are Rosharan minks actually our minks or are they “minks”? If they are ours, why would they have been brought? I can see why we’d bring ‘chickens’ and horses but why minks?
travyl @30
Yep, with a larger target “audience” available. Creepy. I don’t really believe that’s where the plot line is headed. The possibility just popped into my head while reading the comments yesterday.
Maybe mink eat cremling (etouffee, anyone). Cremling are found in freshwater habitats where crem is deposited. Isn’t that most of Roshar? Mink are semi-aquatic. It’s starting to sound like the ideal marriage, so I’m shipping mink + cremling.
noblehunter @31
Perhaps for the same reason they are/were popular hereabouts. Yeah, horses too. I forgot about them.
This whole topic overlaps the how-did-humans-get-to-Roshar question. It’s an interesting one, and we have pretty much zip to take to the bank. But I’d be very surprised if humankind actually evolved on Roshar.
Speaking of ways that two surges together might be able to produce effects that either surge alone can’t, what about Jasnah’s non-contact soulcasting in Way of Kings? That definitely feels like something that might arise from the combination of Transformation and Transportation.
So I noticed that when Pattern talks here about Shallan transforming them, he does so bracketed with “mmm” like he does when he comes across a lie he likes. Maybe what she did wasn’t actually Soulcasting but was close enough to be a metaphor for it?
No one has mentioned this little gem yet:
Nope, Shallan, Bluth can’t read but:
Re: @26, 28 Wetlandernw. I wouldn’t subscribe to the position that spren-bonding necessarily or radically changes the bonded person. Bonding appears to affect primarily, or only, their surge-using abilities. Kaladin was a highly trained spearman prior to bonding. Syl, in the guise of a windspren, may have only enhanced his abilities. Kaladin was and remained an extremely effective and caring leader despite his self-doubt which bonding didn’t remove. Shallan is a great artist with an eidetic memory, even with her bonding in abeyance. Her intellectual gifts also do not appear to be due to bonding. Moreover, her ability to lead despite self-doubt is due to a realization of the importance of her mission which appeared to require a conscious effort to imitate her former mentor, Jasnah – not to mention, the effect of the illusions that she is able to cast. As to the extent and nature of the transformations that a Lightweaver can produce in a person, I would not presume some mystical or spren-produced transformation. Rather, it is more like the transformation induced in following a charismatic leader. Shallan can create an idealized image of a person that appears to be so real that it serves as a model for action. I doubt, however, that she could do so for someone like Sadeas or Szeth – much less, Nalan. Finally, the tangential mink issue. The only place on Roshar that has soil appears to be Shinovar. Jah Keved has no more soil, apparently, than Alethkar even if the Highstorm is somewhat weaker there. A mink would have had to adapt to Roshar conditions by living in clefts of rocks like the distantly related hyraxes in the real world. Moreover, the last mention of mink occurs in the Shattered Plains when Shallan goes to meet Mraize and co. outside the warcamps, i.e. to a very rocky, wind-swept place. Why would minks choose to live in such a place?
@35
The bond isn’t about granting Surges to people the spren deem worthy. Syl tells Kaladin she always knew she would find him. Pattern found Shallan in her adolescent years. The bond is a formal recognition of a Radiant’s aptitude in certain skills and the belief of ideals in a specific area. The Radiant’s are the people they were always going to be. Kaladin was began to doubt his skill with a spear because he believed it wasn’t earned but Syl corrects him saying his skill is inherent, just like her relationship with him.
Attributing their accomplishments or abilities to the “bond” is not the the idea being presented. Shallan would still be Shallan if she never met Pattern. I think there is a two-pronged purpose for the character flashbacks of each book. One reason is to give backstory to the characters, since the story begins with them already adults. And the second reason is to portray their nature as a character and its consistency in the present day. The difference between the two periods, though, is the spren give them purpose, they show them the kind of person they were always meant to be. Kaladin says it perfectly,
He realized that all he wanted to do with his life is protect those in need.
Wall-O-Text Warning
Ways @29 – Whew! Thanks. ;)
It’s a good point, that an ability to effect unwilling/unwitting changes in others is a troublesome concept. It messes with our deeply-held philosophies of the sanctity of free will and the right to screw up (or not) by our own choice. Putting our own will under the (possibly-unknown) control of another human being gives us creeping-of-the-spine issues. (Rightly, I think.) Of course, there’s the fact that those with more power will always have a certain amount of control over those with less power, for good or ill… but at least we know that our responses to them are based on our own convictions and our own courage or cowardice.
However. Just because we think it’s awful doesn’t mean that Sanderson wouldn’t write it into his world as something that the “good guys” do, with the in-world assumption that it’s a “good” thing. Or even that it’s really a good thing. Besides, there is the restraint of the spren to keep it from being abused. (At least, that’s how it’s supposed to work, I think.) But it’s still got potential creepiness. Therefore:
It’s made me do a little re-examination of the notion, in light of a few other things we know. One of the epigraphs in Part 3 says
It starts out sounding good – “the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance.” But then it goes on with “enticed by those glorious creations” which doesn’t sound at all good – in fact, it sounds deeply deceptive. On the other hand, that could be the bias of the writer; we know at least some of the sources were slanted, and some more than a little. We also have to take into account that when they were first organized, Ishar “readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.” We don’t know how those precepts and laws were set up and enforced; it seems at least possible that the ten spren “families” have it so deeply incorporated into their existence that it’s just not possible for them to break those laws.
Without going into it too far, consider Kaladin’s loss of power when he tried to use it for something other than protection a couple chapters ago, and his much later loss of power when the bond was deeply damaged by similar motivations. While it’s not broad proof, it does provide an argument that the “precepts and laws” bind the spren so firmly to the Ideals that it is simply impossible to use the Surges in any way not consistent with them. Granted, “consistent” may be partly a matter of perception!
Anyway, back to the Lightweavers quote. For one thing, “spiritual sustenance” really could mean “spiritual realm effects.” We don’t know, but it could. For another thing, it seems probable that the spren would not allow “enticement” for any nefarious purpose. So that much is good, but it doesn’t answer the question of whether the Lightweavers are actually able to affect people via all three Realms to make them behave differently. With no real basis other than genre, literary, and cultural expectations, I think it’s entirely possible that Brandon set this up so that Lightweavers are able to do exactly that – but with certain parameters.
My guess would be that through Illumination, a Lightweaver can prompt someone to greater awareness their own idealized self – the self they secretly wish they were, or believe they could have been – and through Transformation give them that little kick they need to try to be that idealized self. It’s not really making them a different person than they are, just enhancing their own best instincts. (Exactly the opposite of the WoT Turning process, in fact. Which… is probably the best argument against it working this way, actually.)
Without knowing much about the LDS belief regarding the depravity of man, it’s pretty consistent with 21st-century American assumptions about human nature being basically good. Or, from a different perspective, it could be consistent with a more orthodox view of man bearing the image of God. Setting specific religious beliefs slightly aside, if we accept the idea that people generally at least have an instinctive understanding of what is admirable even if they don’t live it out, it could follow that Lightweavers are able to influence people to try to be more admirable according to their own understanding. Does that mess with their free will? Perhaps, but less, I think, than the idea of making them fit the Lightweaver’s ideals – or need.
Okay, now y’all can tear it to bits. It’s more a notional possibility than a theory, at this point.
On related subjects, how about the spren’s effect on the human in their bond? Again, we’re mostly spitballing because we really don’t know enough. We really can’t say with certainty that the bond can only strengthen what is already there, but we also can’t say with any certainty that the bond creates any fundamentally new traits in the person, either. All we have is a collection of hints that each of the Orders had certain characteristic traits among its members, and that some of them seemed to be beyond anything natural. In particular, the Skybreaker ability to determine guilt or innocence and the Lightweaver mnemonic abilities seem to be extraordinary. My best guess would be that certain inherent abilities are enhanced to supernatural levels, but again I’m only guessing.
Re: mink. Not having been inside a mink’s head, I don’t really know what would induce it to want to live anywhere in particular, but critters have a tendency to adapt to some strange living conditions if the food supply is adequate. It’s not like even this area is nothing but solid stone; there are laits and sheltered areas of varying degrees throughout the land.
tiornys @33: I love that idea.
The idea that spren can force certain behavior patterns on their bonding partners is restricted, thus far, to Syl and Kaladin. Syl, as the one representative of Honorspren in the physical realm, will not tolerate behavior that is inconsistent with her idea of honor. Such behavior, as Kaladin becoming an accomplice to an assassination plot, shuts down their bond and his spren-based powers. Wyndle, on the other hand, feels constrained to assist Lift in her thefts despite his great discomfort at such unethical behavior. “What has becoming of me”, he exclaims, “thieving in the night…”. One difference in the two sprens that can account for their different behavior is that Syl left the Cognitive Realm against the wishes of the Stormfather ‘superspren’ in order to seek out and bond with a person showing the most honorable behavior. Wyndle, on the other hand, was sent by his associates and ‘Mother’ (presumably, the Nightwatcher superspren) to bond with and follow Lift. Shallan’s spren, Pattern, has no such ethical qualms. He prefers imaginative ‘lies’ that contain some truth to the simple truth of things. It is unclear what behavior by Shallan could precipitate a bond breaking – other than violating the basic Radiant oaths. As to minks – I don’t mean to belabor this seemingly very minor subject, but there is more than meets the eye here. Shallan is surprised every time she sees one, but never takes an image. They are, apparently, very uncommon in areas she has been – whether in her father’s estate in Jah Keved, Karbranth, or the Shattered Plains. In the first two instances they appeared to be skulking (the third has been tranquilized by one of Mraize’s minions). They don’t appear to be suited for thriving in this rocky, windswept planet (except for the earth-like Shinovar), and are the only wild mammals that we have thus far encountered (the pigs and horses from Shinovar are kept inside protected areas during highstorms). They may be more than the simple weasel-like animal.
The way I see the whole spren-bond thing, wrt abilities and attitudes, is that all these proto-Radiants have a subconscious vision of who they are, or who they wish to be, but due to circumstances are unable to become that person until their spren comes along, i.e. what is broken becomes fixed.
Take Kal for example. He has this inate ability with the spear, and always has wished to protect those who are weak. That is what attracts Syl in the first place, and as he becomes more aware of this, the bond progresses further, and he Speaks the Words. However, when he starts talking about killing the King, and harming someone weaker or unable to defend themselves, it creates a sort of cognitive dissonance which is what breaks the bond; to me, it is this disconnect between who he subconsciously sees his duty as, and what his actions represent, that causes the bond to break.
Anyways, to end what is beginning to look like a Great Wall o’ Text, all the Radiants/proto-Radiants act according what they see as being “honorable” or in keeping with their character traits. The spren bond simply allows them to recognize the type of person they are, and gives them the impetus to become the best possible version of that person
@@@@@ Spren and abilities – I’m reminded of a passage earlier on, likely in WoK, where there’s talk of how Stormlight doesn’t turn you into something you’re not, but it perfects the things you already are. Possibly Teft thinking of Kal, or Kal thinking to himself while performing his kata. I’ll look up the exact quote when I get home. I suspect that the spren bond works the same way in this respect – not fundamentally changing anyone, but making them the best version of themselves they could be.
And there’s a slight difference between “being honourable” and “following the ideals of your Order”. The Ideals for each order are a progression towards the type of individual the order/its spren want people in the order to become, but what that means can be very different between orders. If I can use the D&D alignment grid to illustrate my point: Skybreakers are essentially Lawful Neutral while Windrunners are essentially Neutral Good, but both orders require an adherence to the specific values embodied by their order.
ETA: Found the quote I was looking for. It was Teft, observing Kaladin after the latter jumped off the semi-extended bridge to rescue Dalinar’s army:
It was more than the Stormlight . Teft had only a fragmentary recollection of the things his family had tried to teach him, but those memories all agreed. Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated. It perfected. Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 928). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Not sure why minks wouldn’t be able to survive on Roshar? I mean, there are plenty of small crustaceans that they can eat and any animal using dens would be well-placed to survive the storms. Yes, they’d have to use pre-existing clefts and caves rather than burrow, but animals can shift their behavior in order to survive. No need for them to be confined to Shinovar.
As to why the humans would have chosen to bring them – I’d guess for their fur? Or, maybe somebody had them as pets and they eventually escaped?
In fact, do we know what Roscharan clothing is made off? They have leather from pigs (and butter from their milk, ugh!), but they don’t seem to have sheep, so no wool? And no pelts, apart from horsehide and, possibly, mink?
And yea, I can only agree that Lightweaving brings out potential inherent in a person, it can’t add anything that hadn’t been there in the first place. Also, a person must be in susceptible state of mind. Like, Bluth o the bandits were despairing and depressed and had very little to lose.
still, the is some moral ambguity in an outside entity affecting your personality like that, I guess. But most people would agree to it, even if they knew, I imagine.
Hmm. More musings…
Mink: We know that Rosharans have in the past used mink pelts for clothing; Shallan thinks of her father’s clothing: “No mink pelts, as his grandfathers might have worn, but otherwise very, very traditional.” Whether they were brought to Roshar specifically for their pelts or, as Isilel suggests, brought as pets but escaped and went wild, it’s traditional (at least in Jah Keved) to wear mink. And I wholeheartedly concur that an animal using dens would be well-placed to survive.
Lightweaving as cross-Realmatic transformation – I’ve suggested that full-up Lightweaving may be a combination of Illumination and Transformation by clarifying for a person their idealized self. Perhaps we could add to that: it lights a way for the person to become that idealized self, giving them the ability to see the obstacles as smaller rather than insurmountable, giving them the courage to try – but limited by their decision to actually do so.
I honestly don’t know what Brandon has in mind, but it seems reasonable that Lightweaving could effect changes in perception while still leaving the final action to the will of the individual. For Gaz and most of the others, they were able to focus on the possibility of being the heroes they wanted to be, rather than seeing the circumstances they felt had forced them into their current life. With that possibilty made visible to them, and the gloom of debts and failures made smaller, they chose to try to be more.
Vathah and a couple others make the “choosing” aspect clearer; for some reason, they were less swayed by Shallan’s efforts, and chose to help only as a matter of keeping more of their own band alive. Perhaps these few had chosen this life more freely than the others – more out of frustration with the oppression of the dark/light-eyes setup than someone like Gaz, who had (for him) insurmountable debts that he’d run away from. For those who saw primarily circumstantial obstacles (petty crimes, debts, desertion) to the idea of returning, Lightweaving was more effective in helping them feel they could make that choice. For those who had ideological objections to the entire system, the desire to return would be much less compelling.
As I said, we really don’t know enough yet. But this seems… logical. It also remains a little bit ethically questionable; unless Shallan is really able to keep her promise of erasing their past, the whole thing is lit by false hope. And that would be very bad. In fact, that’s probably my only objection to Lightweaving working as I’ve speculated: sometimes the obstacles are real, and they must be dealt with. In this case, Shallan will be able to acquire pardons for the men, pay off debts, etc.; but what if Dalinar had been less agreeable? What if she had not been able to fulfill the things she promised in order to clear their path to heroic behavior? In that case, it would be horribly deceptive and unethical, and I’d hate to see that…
The issue of Shallan making promises that are not under her control is not a problem for her spren who dotes on such combinations of truth and ‘lies’. In truth, it’s not a lie. Shallan believes her words as much – or more, than those whom she persuaded. She has every intention of arguing for their pardon and paying off their debts from her anticipated marriage into a wealthy and powerful family. Nor is actual lying for a greater good foreign to her. Her disguise as Veil and deception of Mraise and co. is neither a problem for her or her spren.
I didn’t say it was a problem for her… it’s a potential problem for me. :D
Minks actually make a surprising amount of appearances in Words of Radiance. I am re-reading the book myself and ever since this wonderfly hilarious post went up, I have been extra aware of the word mink in this book, and am kind of baffled by the amount of times they crop up. I think we need a new subsection for Minkwatching in the re-read posts.
I am very late at posting this but here it goes.
The sort of transformation Shallan brought out in the deserters is very similar to the change Kaladin brought to Bridge 4. The processes both of them employ are distinctive of their orders. Kaladin was literally leading his men towards betterment while Shallan was creative in her methods. Perhaps charisma is one thing all Radiants have in spades which helps them inspire those around them.
Carl, here you go. Sorry it’s late.
If you can’t see it, please visit my Profile Photos.
WoR Mink. Sorry, not use to posting images in the thread.
Katharine, Stefan, somebody… Can you make Braid_Tug’s picture work @48? Thanks!!
@49 – I think it should show up now! Let me know if it’s still not there.
LOL!! Love it! Thank you, Stefan – it works. :D
Yea! Thanks Stefan & Wetlandernw!
Kalak’s Breath! I just lost 2 hours of work on this comment when my Storming browser Backed to the index!!!! I will see how much I can recreate quickly.
@1 Travyl – “Kelek’s Breath”. I flagged this too. Breath doesn’t seem to have any association with Kelek/Kalak that I can see: Essence is Foil, Soulcasting Property is Metal, Divine Properties are Resolute,Builder. Even the Body Focus doesn’t fit, it’s The Nails. Nothing evokes ‘breath’ to me, except maybe the physical exertion of resolutely building something.
Another Makabaki character appears: Yix. He’s with Tyn when they pop up while Tvlakv’s group is spying on the merchants caravan. It’s interesting to me Shallan is shocked that she didn’t see him – proto-Lightweaver? Too bad he died. :-( It’s also interesting to me because a lot of odd characters are Makabaki. Axies is Makabaki, I vaguely remember Shalash was termed ‘Makabakian’?? IIRC there are at least 2-3 other non-specific characters who are described as Makabaki. I don’t have a search capability (I only have hardcover and audio.) I’m going to have to buy the ebook version, I think, so I can track things like this down. Anyone want to search on Makabaki for me?
I looked up Makabakam, on Coppermind, and found that it’s one of the 12 Silver Kingdoms from Olde and comprised a very good portion of the western continent and islands. Now it’s broken into 11 1/2 kingdoms, all whose inhabitants ‘share the same ethnicity’.
Several musings upon this: I wonder what ‘shared ethnicity’ means? Regardless, it would suggest to me to be a source of stability in regards to remaining a kingdom. In our world ethnic rivalry is often a source of boundary disputes. Could the ethnic characteristics be the source of fear that caused the other kingdoms to conquer and divide the realm? This breaking big into almost 12 kingdoms reminds me of the Shattered Plains ….
Vathah – He intrigues me. “Tall, bearded … arms that looked too long for his body”. He reminds me of Kaladin. Really. We don’t know anything about his backstory, but he is a strong leader, he cares for his men (they are well supplied, physically healthy, he listens to them, and he doesn’t force his will on them). If Kaladin and his men had escaped the camps as planned, I could see him joining up with this man’s group. Kaladin, I think, would have gotten along well with him, after he kicked Gaz around a bit. And, even though he didn’t fall for her Illusion/whatever, he did take the rest of his men and go help the fight. Yes, his men did bad things (according to Vathah), but which caravans did he prey on and how did he treat his ‘victims’. I think its a very good thing that Kaladin didn’t escape, because I think we see what he would have become in Vathah, if he had. I think we’ll see more of him.
Remember this quote:
I found this sorta jarring. Unless I put it in the context of A Ritual. I wonder if we’re seeing an example, entirely unconsciously on Shallon’s part, of the elements of the, for want of a better term right now, “Soulcasting” Ritual:
1. Invocation of Protection. (see above)
2. Request for Help. “Bless the Stormfather that you are here! … I need your help desperately”
3. Presentation of Offer. “You are offered the chance to be soldiers again. Come with me. I will see to it that you have new lives. Those lives start by saving instead of killing.” <bolding mine>
4. Invocation of Promise. “I promise it to you, by all that I have, by the Almighty himself. You can start over. Start over as heroes.”
I’ve probably got this all wrong, and it’s not important, but I am wondering what you all think about it?
I also find it very suspicious that the sounds of the bandit battle carry so well over 2 hills, and that the specific sounds they hear fit so perfectly into Shallan’s plea for help. Just saying… (probably unnecessarily)
I love the discussion going on regarding Soulcasting and Illumination/Transformation/whatever. My mind is twisting trying to ‘grok’ this. I so look forward to not being so new to all of this that I can see what people are meaning without having to do hours of back research on terms and cosmere!
My favorite interchange in this chapter is between Vathah and Shallan just as she begins the <Illumination/Transformation/whatever> Ritual described in shorthand above:
Finally! ;-) “Damnation!” Maybe because we don’t know anything really about the ‘evil’ or ‘hell’ of this world (at least I don’t yet) this exclamation makes me wonder. I am beginning to think I need to start tracking who says this in what context. Maybe it doesn’t mean anything special?
Minks. A lot of you seem to believe that minks are basically ferrets – soft little rodents that make great pets. You’re all completely wrong.
As the poor, traumatized, pre-teen neighborhood girl employed to feed our chickens while we were on vacation can attest, minks are mean, vicious, psychopathic murderers. Put a single mink in a chicken coop (or allow one to burrow into it) with twenty chickens, and an hour later you’ll have twenty dead chickens and a still-bloodthirsty mink. They kill until there’s no more killing to be done, and then they tromp off looking for more. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Thrill” warriors of Roshar feel is generated by the spren of Minkness.
Also, minks spray. Get too close to a mink, and you’re likely to take a shot to the face of one of the most foul-smelling things you’ll ever have the displeasure of experiencing.
Bottom line: don’t mistake a mink for a helpless rodent unable to survive on its own. The animal seems to me to fit well on Roshar.
I’m way late to this reread party however today’s news shows a mink-like creature trying to world-hop. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/29/476154494/weasel-shuts-down-world-s-most-powerful-particle-collider
Anyone ever think of the comparison of Lightweaving in this context to Emotional Allomancy from Mistborn