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A Read of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Dragons, Part 32

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A Read of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Dragons, Part 32

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A Read of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Dragons, Part 32

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Published on August 6, 2015

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Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire. Today’s entry is Part 32 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 53 (“Jon”) and Chapter 54 (“Cersei”).

Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.

And now, the post!

Chapter 53: Jon

What Happens

After a day of blustering theatrics and insults, Jon and Tormund Giantsbane come to an accord for the terms of the peace between the Night Watch and the wildlings. Jon hopes he is doing the right thing, and Tormund clearly has similar doubts, but the deaths of his sons have changed his outlook. He gives Jon his gold armbands as his part of the price, and promises they will arrive at the Wall three days hence. Jon leaves the tent to find Ghost in company with Val, and thinks she would be a worthy wife for a lord, but that ship has sailed for him, and he declines Tormund’s urging to “steal” her. Val cheerfully says she would geld him if he tried, which Tormund finds hilarious.

Jon tells her he regrets that she must remain a captive, but promises her that she shall not be harmed. He is worried about his own people’s reaction to the bargain he’s made, and Val offers to help him sell it. He agrees to bring her with him when he meets with Queen Selyse. Jon hopes Selyse will be gone soon, hopefully taking Melisandre with her. Back at the castle, Jon gives orders to have Marsh, Yarwyck, Septon Cellador, Clydas, Flint, Norrey and Leathers meet him atop the Wall at sunset.

The queen is with Patchface and Princess Shireen, but she sends them away when Jon and Val arrive. Jon explains the terms of the deal to her, and that the four thousand wildlings will help defend the Wall by manning the abandoned garrisons the Watch cannot fill. The queen accepts this, but then adds that the wildlings must first accept Stannis as their king and R’hllor as their god. Jon tells her that those were not the terms, and Val adds that the free folk will never kneel. Selyse is angry, and warns Jon of Stannis’s retribution for this. They leave, and Val is angry in turn about the existence of Shireen and her “grey death.” She says the child is “not clean,” and insists that the baby must be moved out of the tower, away from “the dead girl.” Jon is dismayed, but agrees to try to arrange it.

Atop the Wall, he meets with Bowen Marsh et al and tells them about the deal with Tormund. They are even less thrilled than Selyse about it. Bowen asks if they mean to let the Weeping Man through too, with his numerous atrocities, and Jon reminds them that when a man takes the black, his crimes are forgiven, and they must do the same for the free folk if they are to fight alongside them. Bowen points out that if Tormund, the Weeper, and the folk at Hardhome all come across, they will vastly outnumber the Watch, but Jon counters that most of them are starving and weak. Bowen asks how they are to feed them, and Jon explains his price of all the free folk’s gold and valuables, which he will send over sea to trade for food. They argue some more, with the men insisting that the wildlings will betray them even though Jon tells them he will have their boys as hostages, until Bowen says flatly that what he proposes is treason, and reminds Jon that he swore an oath.

“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”

“They were. As the lord commander knows.”

“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?”

Bowen has no answer for that, and Jon tells them the white walkers are coming, and the Wall will only defend against them if the Wall has men to defend it. He declares the discussion over, and gives out orders to prepare for the wildlings’ arrival. They agree, reluctantly, and Jon remembers Melisandre’s words:

“Ice,” she said, “and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel.” His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.

Commentary

So, if you look up “fraught” in the dictionary, it probably has icicles on it right now. I’m just saying.

Yeah, no, nothing to worry about here! Not like there’s a million and one ways this whole thing could go straight to hell! Nope, nosirree!

…But, you know, even if it all goes to shit at some point, it’s still damn impressive that Jon’s been able to hold it together this long. And as far as I can tell, this is literally the only solution that has a prayer of actually getting the Wall manned adequately, short of everyone south of the Wall suddenly coming to their senses and putting aside the civil war and uniting to HAHAHA okay nevermind.

And wow, is it frustrating to be so impressed with a leader for putting aside his or her prejudices and pre-conceived notions to actually get shit done, only to watch him be consistently undermined by those who would much rather enshrine and worship those prejudices and pre-conceived notions, and hang whether shit gets done or not. That just sucks. Yep.

Or at least to be threatened with such. No one at Castle Black has quite gotten to the point where they’ve flat-out refused to do what Jon’s told them to do en masse, but I distinctly feel the possibility of it looming darkly on the horizon. Melisandre’s more or less directly predicted it, to boot. So I really hope that Jon’s outside-the-box thinking has also been applied to averting coup d’etats.

Because as examples of bad timing go, “mutiny on the eve of the frozen zombie apocalypse” is a pretty stellar one.

But we can hope that it doesn’t come to that. And in the meantime I can at least enjoy it when Jon lays epic logic smackdowns on his bigoted followers, like he just did here with Bowen, because I love me a good logic smackdown, y’all. Not lying, I got a little heart-eyed there. Oh snap, Jon Snow.

“No. I’ll not have it said that Tormund Thunderfist made the free folk give up their treasures whilst he kept his own.” He grinned. “But I’ll keep the ring I wear about me member. Much bigger than those little things. On you it’d be a torque.”

LOL. Ah, the beauty of a good dick joke.

Not unrelatedly, the name “Tormund Thunderfist” is making me giggle every time I look at it.

On days like this the Wall shimmered bright as a septon’s crystal, every crack and crevasse limned by sunlight, as frozen rainbows danced and died behind translucent ripples. On days like this the Wall was beautiful.

Now there’s a picture. I do look forward to seeing if the HBO series does any kind of justice to the visuals Martin’s given us—even the ridiculously outsized ones, like the Wall. Maybe even especially the ridiculous ones. (And anyway, Google informs me that New Line decided that Minas Tirith was a thousand feet high for the LOTR movies, so in context, a 700-foot wall of ice isn’t even all that outré, really.)

“I’m a princess too,” Shireen announced, “but I never had a sister. I used to have a cousin once, before he sailed away. He was just a bastard, but I liked him.”

Oh, yeah, the one Davos saved. Edwin or Erdwin or whatever. I remember thinking he seemed like a nice kid. I wonder where the hell he is by now?

Val’s rejection of Shireen for her affliction struck me as cruel, but I must acknowledge I am coming from a totally different place than she, both culturally and technologically, when it comes to disease. And if I am right that greyscale is roughly analogous to leprosy (I know it’s not a 1:1 correspondence, but that’s the analogy I keep coming up with, so I go with it), then that means Shireen is also contagious to others, if not very highly, which makes cultural imperatives to shun such afflicted people more understandable, if still upsetting. In the absence of effective treatments for or understanding of contagious diseases, unfortunately isolation is often the only recourse for containment—which is why I was getting so irritated at Dany re: her whole Let’s Go Hug Dysentery! campaign.

Because, don’t hug dysentery, y’all. It will not end well.

 

Chapter 54: Cersei

What Happens

Cersei has been kept prisoner for an unknown number of days without adequate warmth, sleep, or food. She is allowed no visitors, and the three septas who tend her refuse to answer her questions about Tommen or anyone else. Cersei rails against all those who have betrayed her, but cannot believe Jaime is one of them, and eagerly awaits his rescue, though she worries that Qyburn may have been killed before delivering her letter. She fought her captors at first, but as time passes she finds her strength waning, and finally Cersei decides that she must confess as has been demanded of her.

She begs to be brought before the High Septon, claiming repentance of all her sins, and as a reward they let her sleep through the night before bringing her down. Before the High Septon, remembering that Lancel and the Kettleblacks talked, Cercei carefully admits to sleeping with them, but pleads “a woman’s weakness” and a need to ensure the safety of her son as reasons. She denies having told Osney Kettleblack to murder the previous High Septon or to defame Margaery Tyrell, and also denies having cheated on her husband while he was still alive, or killing him. She claims the accusations of incest and cuckolding were lies invented by Stannis in pursuit of the throne, and is heartened by the High Septon’s condemnation of Stannis as a heretic. He tells her that she must still have a trial and be “cleansed of her wickedness,” but that she will now be allowed visitors, though not Tommen.

She asks for her uncle Ser Kevan, and learns he is Lord Regent now. He comes to her the next day, and accepts her tearful apology re: Lancel coldly. He tells her that Tommen is well, but that Jaime has left his forces in the riverlands to go off with a woman who may have been Lady Brienne of Tarth. Cersei remembers how ugly she was and dismisses her as a threat, and concludes that Jaime must not have gotten her letter. She begs Kevan to get her out, but he says he does not have the manpower to do it. He tells her the High Septon wants her to atone for her sins by “a walk before the city,” but Cersei refuses flatly, saying she would rather die. Kevan replies that she may get her wish, as she is to be put on trial for “regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason”—unless she demands trial by battle with one of the Kingsguard as her champion.

Cersei wants to know why Margaery got to go free and not her, and Kevan says Randyll Tarly and his large army accomplished that, plus the High Septon admits the case against the Tyrell girls is weak. Cersei takes heart, though, when she learns many of Margaery’s “accusers” are still in Qyburn’s custody. Then Kevan tells her what happened to Myrcella. Cersei is horrified, and immediately decides that Tyrion was behind it, ignoring Kevan’s observation that she “sees Tyrion in every shadow.” She confirms that Ser Arys Oakheart has been killed, and says that means there is an opening in the Kingsguard. She says if Kevan tells Tommen to name someone, he will.

“And who would you have him name?”

She did not have a ready answer. My champion will need a new name as well as a new face. “Qyburn will know. Trust him in this. You and I have had our differences, Uncle, but for the blood we share and the love you bore my father, for Tommen’s sake and the sake of his poor maimed sister, do as I ask you. Go to Lord Qyburn on my behalf, bring him a white cloak, and tell him that the time has come.”

Commentary

Before I even start reading: Whoa, a Cersei POV? That is like so 2014!

After reading: Okaaaaaaay, what is happening here.

…All right, I am now very vaguely remembering Qyburn talking to Cersei about some project he was working on which involved… oversized armor? Right?

Dude. Did they make RoboKnight? You guys, I think they made RoboKnight. ZOMG.

Is Qyburn Dr. Frankensteining it up in his den of horrors down there? I bet he is, y’all. I bet he is spending the Westeros equivalent of six million dollars on some poor schmuck to make them the bigger badder knight. Also, given the origins here, probably also the uglier, eviler, deranged-er knight too. I mean, I don’t even want to know what is involved in giving someone “a new face” in these conditions, y’all, but let’s just say I’m pretty sure it won’t be AMA-approved. Yeesh.

Granted, I have no idea how one achieves this type of thing with just inhumane torture, which seems to be Qyburn’s sole bailiwick, but we do know that reanimating dead tissue is absolutely a doable thing these days. So maybe he found a magician type person to team up with or something for mad science magic Frankensteining purposes. It’s just how you would make an undead dude… er, Hulk out that I’m not clear on. I mean, I’m pretty sure Catelyn didn’t get extra muscles or anything after she came back, so it’s not like coming back from the dead itself makes you big enough to need Hulk-size armor…

You know what, I am way overanalyzing this. I’m sure I will find out in the fullness of time how exactly one pulls off a RoboKnight in a medieval-ish dungeon. Or I will find out that I have been completely barking up the wrong tree this whole time and “RoboKnight” is the dumbest thing that’s ever come out of my keyboard. Not that I care, because the concept of RoboKnight is HILARIOUS and I am enjoying it until such time as he/she/it does something awful that I’ll have to be mad about. But until then, HAHAHAHA RoboKnight.

(dance till you drop)

ANYWAY, Cersei! Is still on form, I see! One crying and lying ex-monarch, up on deck!

But, you know, she’s a lot less tortured than I thought she’d be. I mean, she’s basically in Religious Fanatic Gitmo right now, but a little systematic sleep deprivation and starvation is actually kind of small potatoes compared to what I’d assumed was going to happen.

But maybe they’re saving the good stuff for after the trial! Antiyay!

And of course she is conflicting me, as per the usual, because we all know good and well that Cersei is a horrible person who’s done some seriously shitty things and really does deserve to be punished for them, BUT at the same time I am so outraged on principle by this “witch trial by theocratic fiat” bullshit that I perversely want her to outwit them and beat the whole rap (beat it with ROBOKNIGHT! Hahahaha) just for the moral victory. Yes, I am aware of the irony here.

The galloping misogyny on display, naturally, does not sweeten my attitude toward the ersatz prosecution in the slightest. “The wickedness of widows is well-known,” what the fuck ever. I have never lost a spouse, but on behalf of every woman who has: Up yours, your Holiness.

(You do have to give Cersei sort of half-hearted props, though, for her leet skillz in manipulating a system that is inherently against her, by using that very misogyny to protect herself, or at least try to. There’s a whole debate with myself to be had here about whether that’s hypocrisy or just good survival skills that I don’t have the energy to get into right now, but do not doubt that I am aware of it, at least.)

Blurgh. It’s not worth it to bring justice to someone who deserves it if it condones a method of “justice” that could be used unilaterally against someone who doesn’t deserve it. In other words, I want Cersei to get her comeuppance, but I’d far rather she got it fairly—not for her sake, necessarily, but for everyone else’s, if that makes sense. But of course, we’re talking about a system of justice that even in its secular iteration involves a trial by combat clause, so I might as well ask for that winged unicorn pony I’ve been wanting while I’m asking for “fair,” since they’re both about equally likely to happen, seems like. Sigh.

On to Kevan: all other considerations aside, I can’t deny it’s a relief that he’s in the driver’s seat now. At least there’s a chance now that the Lannisters won’t drive the entire continent off a cliff before….

Well, before the ravening ice monsters show up and kill everyone. So, it’s a uniquely ASOIAF kind of relief, but hey.

Also, I can’t think getting Tommen away from his mother is anything but a good thing, because damn was she messing that kid up. So go Lord Regent Kevan, I guess.

Also also, Cersei’s continuing obsession with Tyrion is officially no longer cute. Not that it ever was, but girl, come on.

Also also also, I think what I would really like to get now would be a Margaery POV, because right now I have her cast as the anti-Cersei in my head and I am kind of dying to know if she actually is or not. I’m not sure why that’s relevant here, but I thought it, so I thought I’d say it.

And, yeah. So up next: magical Frankenstein steroid dueling? Magical Frankenstein Steroid Dueling! Whee! I’d buy THAT for a dollar!


And that’s the haps, y’all! Have a swelteringly lovely weekend, and I’ll see you next Thursday with more!

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Leigh Butler

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9 years ago

“Blurgh. It’s not worth it to bring justice to someone who deserves it if it condones a method of “justice” that could be used unilaterally against someone who doesn’t deserve it. In other words, I want Cersei to get her comeuppance, but I’d far rather she got it fairly—not for her sake, necessarily, but for everyone else’s, if that makes sense. But of course, we’re talking about a system of justice that even in its secular iteration involves a trial by combat clause, so I might as well ask for that winged unicorn pony I’ve been wanting while I’m asking for “fair,” since they’re both about equally likely to happen, seems like. Sigh.”

This whole paragraph is both so true, and so funny.

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TheMadMouse
9 years ago

Because as examples of bad timing go, “mutiny on the eve of the frozen zombie apocalypse” is a pretty stellar one.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

There are no words… that can be written here.

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VarysIsComing
9 years ago

One might also say that the RoboKnight is Huge.

HUGE AS A *MOUNTAIN*… (roll over to read)

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9 years ago

Great chapters, great analysis.  RK LOL FTW!  Also “Because as examples of bad timing go, “mutiny on the eve of the frozen zombie apocalypse” is a pretty stellar one.”  Bravo – well said. EDIT – AND SAID ABOVE AS WELL. 

Can we starting shipping Valjon?  They are almost too cute together.  Bummer about that whole chastity thing. 

Nice to have Tormund step into the humor breach while Dolorous Edd is off protecting the spearwives at his tower. 

In the back of my mind I’m worried that Greyscale has larger implications than merely leprosy type contagion.  What exactly is Val afraid of?  I keep thinking it’s more than just mere fear of contagion. 

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o.m.
9 years ago

I think @3 is a spoiler.

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9 years ago

Another great reread!

Leigh- We were first introduced to Qyburn when Arya encountered him at Harrenhall. Gendry told her that he was dismissed from the Citadel and stripped of his chain for black magic and necromancy. So bear that in mind when he speaks of making a “champion” for Cersei, and requested armor too heavy for a normal man to wear. So your comments about “Frankensteining” are actually pretty accurate, it would seem. Remember who was in his care recently. 

Dolorous Edd might be gone, but at least we have Tormund around for now. He’s always good for a few laughs…

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Tsathoggua
9 years ago

Leigh, this is ASOIAF. With the general exception of Tywin’s death, you can’t expect any sort of comeuppance to be particularly “fair”.

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9 years ago

I think one thing even book snobs will agree with is that the TV show has managed to do a pretty good job with some of the visuals. The Wall in particular is great. Would it be considered a spoiler to post a picture?

As for Leigh’s guesses about *stuff*, all I can say is bwahahahahah! And off to the spoiler thread :)

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9 years ago

@1:

Yeah, its like if the Witch King did his “No Mortal Man May Hinder Me” speech, and Durnhelm is approaching, and the Witch King was trampled by an elephant.  On the one hand, less Witch King is more good.  On the other hand, karma is brutally denied.

I don’t want to see Cersei smashed by the Patriarchy.  I want to see her killed by Arya.  I would also accept Tyrion or Jamie.

SlackerSpice
9 years ago

“Because, don’t hug dysentery, y’all. It will not end well.”

(rot13d) Bu, lbh unir ab vqrn…

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9 years ago

Yayyyy Cersei’s back!!!    Everything’s going to be OoooooK!

RoboKnight.   You may have just created a new meme.   I’m adding it to my lexicon.

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David Hunt
9 years ago

@7  For those people who think that the great villains of this series will never get their comeuppance, please let me remind you that we are on Book 5 of a SEVEN book series.  I have confidence that the main villains (e.g. Cercei, Littlefinger, Ramsay, Roose) will all die in displays of karmic irony that would make the Mikado envious.  However, we are not at a point in the story where that can reasonably take place without simply replacing them with new villains for us to hate.  One or two of them might meet a satisfying end, like Tywin, but these people are needed if we’re going to have any story but fighting the Others.  Granted, the Others have to be dealt with as well, but I think that they’ll be the LAST major foe to be confronted.

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MGP
9 years ago

#6 is kind of spoilery as well; may want to do the whole white-out-unless-highlighted thing to it. It’s less blatant than 3, but still makes it quite obvious.

Things that aren’t spoilers: Robert’s bastard that was at Dragonstone until Davos set him free was named Edric Storm.

Also, the Wall is pretty spectacular in the HBO series. You can see what it looks like without exposing yourself to any spoilers from the show with a google image search; the first couple lines of results are all you need.

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9 years ago

@9 – Witch King demise by oliphaunt actually sounds really hilarious…hahahaha ;)

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9 years ago

Jon’s attempts to rule a populace on the verge of rebellion in a manner that’s smart and fair closely tracks Dany’s attempts to do the same in Meereen. I’m rereading the series now and will pay closer attention to these parallels when I get to this part.

We’ve already seen how that went for Dany…

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Chinoiserie
9 years ago

I know everyone feels sorry for Jon but I actually would he him out of all characters, he has his own place instead of wondering around and he really does not have to make hard moral decisions, just unpopular ones. Not that he does not have any problems.

Does you happiness Leah over Kevan’s regency mean that you are rooting for some Lannisters at least? I do hate Cersei and Joffrey but I have to admit that the Lannisters are the one of the most interesting and entertaining characters in asoiaf. Tywin is actually my favorite, he is really fascinating if you analyze him. Not that he is a nice guy but far more complicated than some think and not completely bad. I do not want the Lannisters to suffer some horrible fate or I want Martin to make everyone feel sorry about that if they do like with Cersei here. And villains (and deserving people) do lose and suffer in asoiaf, the Mountain, Tywin, Joffrey, Vargo Hoat, Craster, Rattleshirt, Viserys for example and more and less horrible/more complicated people  like Theon, Balon, Jaime, Cersei, Drogo, Mirri have suffered and/or died. Everyone really sufferers in asoiaf if they stay alive long enough.

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@4RobMRobM, interesting idea if there was more to Val’s reaction than just ‘superstition.’  Kind of torn on that; while it would be neat if Val knew something more than the rest of the ‘kneelers’ (either individually or from being a wilding) I’d be a little dubious if that were true as it would be a little too close to the ‘noble savage trope.’

@9wlangendorf, I am now picturing the Witch King of Angmar holding up an ‘ouch’ sign as the oliphant goes by with the Looney Tunes music in the background.

@12David Hunt, I can’t say that I’m holding my breath for the end of some or all of these villains; not how this series rolls and not sure how Martin would accomplish that anyway.

As for Cersei’s fall, I don’t need her to die honestly.  I do rather like the fact that her ‘imminent’ fall is coming at the hands of the group she helped give power to.  May not be kharmic but it is ironic.

Kato

 

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9 years ago

@13: 

Why is that a spoiler? Don’t tell me you didn’t add 1 and 1 on your first read there.

There is nothing wrong with lining up a few things that Leigh has already read and written about. We all read this book in one haul. She is doing a chapter a week. What happened there was lining up known facts, and let Leigh work with it.

I am all for anti-spoiler policy, but some people here are taking it way too far.

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9 years ago

@18.   Well, I think in Leigh’s own words, she prefers not even to be reminded of things that she’s commented on before if it leads her to reach a conclusion that she’s not reaching now.

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Josh Luz
9 years ago

Shireen doesn’t have greyscale, she had it as an infant.  The disfigurement is simply the scarring, right?

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9 years ago

:

That’s going to be fun with the next book then, when (or if) that finally comes out ;)

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9 years ago

@20:

IIRC, the greyscale on Shireen was stopped (slowed?) from expanding, because Stannis put a lot of skilled healers on it. In any case, as shown, it cannot be cured.

I can see where Val comes from. Remember Tyrion’s scene when attacked by those fully greyscaled people on the boat, and the frantic checks if anybody had been touched.

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9 years ago

RobMRobM: IIRC, greyscale is a death sentence for adults and also kills most children who get it.  I can completely understand why Val is freaked out by something for which there is no cure and causes a horrible, slow death.

Leigh, nice Robocop reference at the end there!

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Tsathoggua
9 years ago

@12: For the record, I don’t think it’s impossible that Cersei, et. al. will go out in a better way than what’s expected. It’s just that ASOIAF probably holds a record for “terrible people getting punished/killed by other, more-or-less equally terrible people” (or going out with said terrible person, in the case of Oberyn Martell).

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9 years ago

I would argue that Cersei is absolutely getting her comeuppance fairly in a karmic sense. 

She DID have the last High Sparrow killed – merely because Tyrion had appointed him. (Talk about depraved indifference)

She DID allow the Faith Militant to reform and re-arm and give them the power they are using over her.  Over the vigorous objections of everyone with 2 functioning brain cells.

She DID try to frame her daughter-in-law.

She DID commit adultery. treason, and murder against her husband. 

Now karma is punishing her in the most fitting way imaginable.  The only problem I have is she is so stupid and narcissistic that none of this occurs to her.  It’s like torturing a dog – it doesn’t feel remorse or regret, only pain.  That’s why we just euthanize the bad ones.

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9 years ago

I too caught a bad vibe about the greyscale.  Maybe Val is just superstitious, or maybe she’s superstitious like Old Nan.

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9 years ago

I greatly enjoyed the Cersei chapter on my first read, especially since I happened to read it on the night of a very satisfying political event. But I’m increasingly disturbed by the misogyny and patriarchy through which it’s framed, and the crimes she’s accused of.

She’s ordered the murder and/or torture (and in one case, enslavement) of many relatively-innocent men, women, and babies, killed a friend, raped a woman, and allowed Joffrey to commit further atrocities. And what is she being punished for? Sex outside of wedlock, incest with her brother (cousins don’t count), claiming her bastards are legitimate, and killing the king and the religious leader. I could charitably say that those are the crimes for which there is known evidence/testimony, but they’re also the ones that these people care about most. Ugh.

Her thoughts and priorities only make sense to me if I believe she’s seeing everything through the filter of that prophesy. Maggy, who hasn’t predicted wrong yet, foretold that the “younger queen” and the “valonquar” – Margaery and Tyrion, Cersei is certain – will destroy her. Thus her every misfortune of must come from them, anything she doesn’t connect with them (e.g. “Stannis’s sellswords” in the Stormlands, rumors of dragons in Essos) isn’t worth worrying about, and anything which hurts hem (e.g. Ironborn attacking the Reach) is good for her.

Plenty of ASOIAF villains get karmically appropriate fates. Hoat: Slowly decapitated and force-fed his own severed appendages especially pleased me. But in this game of Whack-A-Villain, more are always popping up.

“All women are wantons at heart.” – High Septon
“Do you feel like a won ton at heart?” – Brendan to Natasha, on Unspoiled.

Still makes me laugh.

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9 years ago

You could probably watch the first four seasons once this read catches up with the published books but Season 5 has already overrun the published material. Martin has confirmed that the show has divorced itself from the written material and is essentially fanfic.

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9 years ago

Karma is about cause and effect. Cersei gave the Sparrows the power that they are now using against her, so her fate is karmic.

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9 years ago

Speaking of greyscale, it seems to exist in 3 forms:

childhood disease, which is survivable, and, after the illness has run it’s course, not infectious. The disfigurements remain for life, though. That’s what the maesters think, at least. Shireen wasn’t saved by some extraordinary effort in the books, BTW, that’s just the show. Nor was she infected on purpose, ditto. It is just something that happens to people in moist environments occasionally in that world.

Val has different ideas, but who knows if they are actually right – for the beyond the Wall environment that she is used to. Wildlings knowing more about their environment or the Others doesn’t make them “noble savages”, BTW, but is only logical. They needed to know these things in order to survive.

adult disease, which is very much like leprosy, in that it is long-running, moderately infectious and mostly eventually  fatal. Cutting off affected extremities at an early stage allegedly stops it in rare cases, though.

the grey plague, which is very infectious, invariably fatal and swift.

Re: Cersei’s motives for having the previous High Septon murdered, he also spoke a lot with Lancel, prayed with him,etc. and she feared that Lancel may have confessed her role in Robert’s boaring and their affair to him. Which is deeply ironic, of course.

Interesting (and to her credit), that given what we have seen of  her PoVs, Cersei apparently never seriously considered killing Lancel, even though Tyrion expected that she would. Only goes to show, yet again, that Tyrion’s opinions aren’t infallible.

 

 

 

 

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9 years ago

Val’s people have to deal with an enemy who can control the dead.  Maybe that is why a victim of a disease that leaves some of the flesh dead is disturbing to them.  Or maybe it makes her truly vulnerable to the Others. 

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9 years ago

The way Martin writes I cannot be sure all the major villains get their karmic comeuppance.  You can’t even be sure that the White Walkers won’t win or even if they are the Bad guys.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends with all the Starks and Dany dead and the Boltons in charge.

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9 years ago

@25

AND Cersei ratified the Faith’s power to try these cases so that her hands would be “clean” while they prosecuted Margaery. Everything she faces and the conditions of her trial are all entirely her fault — a series of horrible snap decisions for immediate advantage with no look to the future.

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9 years ago

Yes, big petard hoisting going on….

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9 years ago

You realize that if you ask George RR Martin for a winged unicorn pony … you probably get a flesh-eating winged unicorn pony of death.

 

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Salvation122
9 years ago

GET

 

HYPE

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Athreeren
9 years ago

I completely agree: the problem with Cersei is that after all the terrible things she’s done, she’s condemned for being a woman, which is obviously not satisfying. Why can’t we have a nice death scene like Joffrey, one that makes us unquestionably ecstatic? (you know, apart from the Sansa-and-Tyrion-condemned-to-death-for-no-reason thing)

 

For a duel, the church would need their own Roboknight: do they have one?

 

Once they figure a way to work a dead horse, we’ll be next. Likely I’ll be the first too. ‘Edd’ they’ll say, ‘dying’s no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you’ve got the watch tonight.’ Well, I shouldn’t be so gloomy. Might be I’ll die before they work it out.”
Dolorous Edd

What a great idea!
Qyburn

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9 years ago

@37 – could bring the Hound back from Quiet Isle….the silent monk versus the silent Roboknight would be all kinds of cool. 

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9 years ago

Something else that’s not a spoiler:   Now that we’ve got a Cersei chapter, we know that we are chronologically caught up to the end of Feast For Crows.

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Tyler Soze
9 years ago

@36, 38 –

I have the whole Clegane Bowl plotted in my head, which means it would never happen.  But it would work I tells ya!

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George
8 years ago

@38

We knew that already from Arya and Jaime POV’s.

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Roxana
7 years ago

Personally I find it very satisfying that Cersei has fallen into the pit she dug for another. She GAVE the misogynistic High Sparrow the power to so this to her. It is all horribly karmic.