Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 25 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 43 (“Daenerys”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 43: Daenerys
What Happens
Dany lays in bed beside Daario and thinks that she would give up her crown for him if he asked, but knows that he will never ask, for it is the dragon queen he loves, not Dany herself. When he wakes, he entreats her to marry him instead, but she tells him she cannot, and reminds him it will be treason to desire her once she is married. He answers he will be a traitor, then, and convinces her to hold court so he can present his new Westeros men to her. He tells her one of them, Frog, has a gift for her. She is reluctant, but agrees.
The next night she dreams of having sex with Hizdahr, but that he is ice-cold. She prays that the marriage will bring his promised peace, but thinks that this will never be her home. At court, Galazza makes a veiled jab at Dany re: “the presumption of a certain sellsword captain,” but Dany deliberately misinterprets her remark as being about Ben Plumm, and dismisses her. Daario presents to her his Westerosi, in particular the three Dornishmen, Greenguts, Gerrold, and Frog. Dany finds the latter “unimpressive” in appearance. Ser Barristan is suspicious of their claim to be knights, and Gerrold admits that they came to her under false names. At his request, Dany has the court cleared.
Then they introduce themselves as Ser Archibald Yronwood and Ser Gerris Drinkwater for the first two. Frog asks to give her his gift first, which turns out to be a scroll recording a secret pact promising Dorne’s help in overthrowing the Usurper, in return for her brother Viserys’s marriage to Prince Doran’s daughter Arianne. Barristan comments that Robert would have smashed Sunspear and the entire Martell family if he’d known of this, and Dany says if Viserys had known of it, he would have gone to Dorne the moment he came of age. Frog says this is why his father kept it secret, to wait until Viserys had an army, and reveals himself to be Prince Quentyn Martell.
Dany laughs, causing Quentyn to flush, and explains to her courtiers in their own language about the prince/frog joke there. She finds him “neither enchanted nor enchanting,” and observes that Doran means for she and Quentyn to marry in Arianne and Viserys’s stead. Daario is openly mocking of Quentyn, calling him a “mewling boy.” Dany tells Quentyn he should have come a year ago, for she weds Hizdahr zo Loraq the next day, and sends them away. She remembers her dream uneasily, though, and wonders if it is a sign from the gods. Barristan tells her that the Martells’ arms are “A sun in splendor, transfixed by a spear,” and Dany wonders if Quentyn is “the sun’s son” in Quaithe’s prophecy to her, but leaves it all in irritation.
She and Daario have a lot of sex, and he leaves the next morning with curt words, unwilling to stay in the city while she gets married. Missandei suggests it is not too late to get out of marrying a man she does not love, but Dany tells her “A queen loves where she must, not where she will.” As she prepares to leave for the temple, Quentyn finds her and makes one last plea for his case, but she tells him that she will return to Westeros and Dorne one day, but today she weds for this city. Barristan tells her stories of her parents until they meet up with Hizdahr’s procession, and they continue on to the Temple of the Graces, where Hizdahr ritually washes her feet.
He has gentle hands, she mused, as warm fragrant oils ran between her toes. If he has a gentle heart as well, I may grow fond of him in time.
When her feet were clean, Hizdahr dried them with a soft towel, laced her sandals on again, and helped her stand. Hand in hand, they followed the Green Grace inside the temple, where the air was thick with incense and the gods of Ghis stood cloaked in shadows in their alcoves.
Four hours later, they emerged again as man and wife, bound together wrist and ankle with chains of yellow gold.
Commentary
BOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Boo! Hiss!
Well, this is just not my favorite thing at all.
Though I do confess to a certain amount of relief that at least the assassination attempt or coup or whatever I had totally been expecting to disrupt the wedding never happened. Better wed than dead… I GUESS.
But even so, this is all going to turn out to be such a huge mistake, y’all. I feel it in my bonezzzzz. So trepidation. Very dread. Wow.
First of all, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND from what moist crevice Dany thinks Hizzy-boy is going to pull this so-touted peace from. It seems like she thinks the process will be: she marries him, they go to the gigantic horde of enemies surrounding them on all sides and be like “Dudes, look, we got hitched!”, and the gigantic horde of enemies will be all, “Oh? Well, wow, hey, no shit! Congrats! We’ll just be heading on home then! Good luck, you crazy kids!”
I’m just saying, I do not think that it how it is going to go. I have no idea how it is going to go, but I’m pretty damn sure we’re not getting the sitcom ending here.
Second of all, to young master Quentyn:
One job, dude! And you blew it. BLEW IT.
Man, I can’t believe that was (one of) the meetings I had been pinning my hopes on for, what, most of a book? Longer? Agh!
So much fail. But then, it’s probably not completely Quentyn’s fault. Because Quentyn is (relatively speaking) a decent, clean-cut, non-deranged guy whose ego isn’t the size and composition of a hot air balloon. So naturally Dany finds him utterly uninteresting, because she is apparently only attracted to epic douchebags.
Ugh.
Not to mention, Dany was something of a douche to Quentyn herself. I mean, he might not think she fucks horses or eats live bats or whatever the rumors were anymore, but she certainly didn’t give him much reason to think she was a particularly nice person. She was, in fact, kind of really rude to him, and seemed bizarrely underwhelmed by what should have been the epic news that Dorne is totally ready to ally with her to get the Iron Throne back. Okay, so she is committed to this damn Meereen thing, I get it, but you didn’t have to laugh at him, Dany, damn.
Sigh.
So, I went and actually found Quaithe’s original prophecy. Which, I might add, takes a bit of doing when you can’t just Google it. (I’ve actually been sort of avoiding the greater portion of the Internet altogether recently, until the furor dies down from whatever happened in the season finale of the show; I don’t know what it was, but apparently people had MANY THINGS to yell about it.) So I could only search my own posts to find it, and that was a PITA, let me tell you.
Anyway, the prophecy! Which I fortunately quoted in full back in the day, so:
“Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”
Okay, right. Well, I was pretty much right about the pale mare thing, wasn’t I. Yay, dysentery!
But wow, I forgot there were this many people coming. I also completely forgot the existence of Dark Flame Maester Guy, whose name I still don’t remember. And I still don’t know who “the mummer’s dragon” is supposed to be. I suppose he could be Hizdahr? But I don’t know why that description would apply to him, at all.
And where are all these hep cats, anyway? Well, Tyrion’s busy getting enslaved at the moment, goddammit, and Griff The Most Unsubtly Named has been detoured to Dorne last I recall, so that’s those guys, but I have no idea what’s keeping Victarion “Emo Murder” Greyjoy or Dark Flame Maester Whatshisguts or mummer dragon guy.
You know, other than the massive naval blockade, the desert filled with crazed mercenaries, and the plague-riddled suburbs. Ahem.
Okay, fine, but you guys are seriously falling down on your prophetic jobs. Quentyn may be the doofiest of the bunch, but at least he managed to get there a couple of minutes before she got married. I dunno, but I hear arriving post-nuptials kind of puts the kibosh on the whole “suing for her hand” part of suitoring.
I also didn’t remember the other thing, which is that Quaithe told her not to trust any of them. Which is a bit startling in that it includes Quentyn, who is many things, but “devious” is really not one of them. The other guys, sure (including and maybe even especially Tyrion), but Quentyn is kind of heart-breakingly sincere from what I can tell.
But, maybe Quaithe meant Doran shouldn’t be trusted, i.e. the folks behind Quentyn. Which, okay, except Doran seems pretty sincere in his wish to put a Targaryen back on the throne too. So maybe it’s Quaithe herself who isn’t trustworthy and this whole prophecy’s a bunch of crap. I don’t think that’s true, at least not entirely, but it’s certainly true that I have absolutely no clue what Quaithe’s agenda is either. Agenda, hell; I don’t even know what her deal is.
So there’s all that. Then there’s the third thing of all, which is the utterly unacceptable percentage of this chapter that had Daaaaaario in it. Because he is, as I may have mentioned once or twice, a tool.
Khal Drogo had been her sun-and-stars, but he had been dead so long that Daenerys had almost forgotten how it felt to love and be loved.
Ah, jeez. I have been very hard on Dany for this whole Daario thing, but then I read a passage like this and remember that Drogo is her gold standard for a healthy relationship (also her sole point of comparison), and then I just want to beat up the entire world for how badly it’s fucked her up.
Anyway, I think I’m supposed to feel sympathy for Daario in this chapter that Dany’s using him for sex while simultaneously saying more or less explicitly that he’s not good enough for her to actually marry, but I… kinda don’t, sorry. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but, well.
I do at least feel like he is less of a threat to her than I had previously assumed. But then again, I should probably never underestimate the potential fallout of a bruise on an ego that size, so hopefully I’m not jumping the gun on that score. Still plenty of time for things to go horribly wrong!
As a side note to that, I’m actually a little unclear on whether general knowledge of Dany’s affair with Daario would be a scandal in Meereen or not. I would assume that the standard patriarchal bullshit of “men can totally sleep around all they want and women can… put up with it” applies, but Dany seems weirdly unconcerned with being discovered if that’s the case. Or not unconcerned, but not as concerned as she should be.
Oh, I just reread that court bit, and Galazza certainly seems to have an issue with her dallying with Daario, so there’s that. So probably it’s totally taboo just like usual and Dany just doesn’t give a shit anymore. I find that simultaneously admirable and stupid on her part. But then, I feel that way about 95% of everything Dany has ever done, so at least she gets points for consistency.
Though maybe more in the “stupid” column in light of this:
Reznak mo Reznak bowed and beamed. “Magnificence, every day you grow more beautiful. I think the prospect of your wedding has given you a glow.”
Um.
Hopefully she’s just switched to a really good moisturizer?
And I’m spent for the nonce, chirren! Have a lovely late June weekend, and I’ll see you next Thursday!
The use of the YOU HAD ONE JOB meme for Quentyn might be the most appropriate use of it I’ve seen in some time.
Regarding Quentyn in the prophecy, I don’t think it’s that these people will betray her, it’s that they do not have her interests in mind. Quentyn is a “perfumed seneschal,” an envoy for other powers who smells sweet but who ultimately wants to use Danaerys for his own ends.
Daenerys had one job – conquer Westerous and reclaim the Iron Throne. She just failed utterly.
She took her best chance and tossed it away like trash because Quentyn is just a normal young man – not a bad boy pirate or some such nonsense. Selmy was rightly shocked at her stupidity. She was being handed one of the Seven Kingdoms! The one that has not been devastated by war! A huge army, funding, resources, a perfect launching pad for a campaign…
I know she’s a hero to many fans, but she really is written as a shallow, vain, clueless teenager.
@3 That is totally what Tywin would have done: sail to conquer Westeros and leave the people of Meereen behind to die or be enslaved again. Having a sense of responsibility for her people is not stupidity.
Heh. There’s a forest behind all those trees, you know.
@@.-@ – That’s the problem isn’t it? She decided she is responsible for that dump – but not the other 2 cites she left in her wake. As if I suddenly decided I was responsible for Hong Kong (by right of my royal birth and lethal pets). And being a somewhat benevolent dictator, it’s not like she can delegate authority or write a Constition and leave a Republic behind à la Simon Bolivar.
Makes you wonder if she’ll still be floundering around Slaver’s Bay when (if) GRRM finishes the series.
@@.-@ But she’s still stupid. As Leigh said, she didn’t have to laugh at Quentyn and be so insulting and dismissive. She could have held council and made a new agreement, to come there and wed or whatever after Meereen had stabilized. She could have reached some kind of agreement to bargain for Dorne’s power and support.
But no, Quentyn doesn’t make her panties tingle, so she gives him no regard.
You can try to excuse her all you want for being kind hearted and caring, but that doesn’t mean she’s not also being utterly stupid and trying to rule in the worst possible way.
Unrelated note: I’m still having a lot of problems with the comments on the site. Half the time they don’t show at first, so I have to click the button “show comments” or something, which reloads the page with /#-whatever but the page never actually loads, so I have to delete the /#-whatever part to reload the page and scroll all the way back down. Responsiveness is still sluggish as all getout.
naupathia@7
I have a similar problem (using Firefox). I have found, if you right-click on the “Jump to new comments” link and select “Open in New Tab”, that things seem to work.
@6 – it’s precisely because the first two cities turned to heck that she is so committed to fixing Meereen permanently before leaving for Westeros. Young grasshopper is learning from her mistakes, and then moving on to exciting new ones.
If Dany can be a good ruler to Mereen and end slavery in Essos, isn’t that more important than ruling the Iron Throne?
As fantasy readers, we want sci fi/fantasy legends and roles fulfilled. We want characters to claim legacy and have their lives dictated by prophecy. We want the characters to fill our narratives, which in Dany’s case is “last scion of a great house, exiled, destined to return and reclaim her birthright”
What if our frustration as readers is from Martin’s refusal to give us the trope we want, rather than from Dany’s story being bad or Dany making bad decisions?
I thought marrying Hizdahr was exactly what we DIDN’T expect to happen. Fantasy has trained us as readers to expect Dany to jump at Quentyn’s officer. Fantasy has trained us that Doran is a great schemer when maybe he isn’t. Maybe a letter signed on Dany’s behalf when she was too young to understand holds absolutely no weight and she shouldn’t be bound by it.
Dany has no emotional or physical connection to Westeroes. The only home she remembers is Bravos. Should she travel somewhere she doesn’t understand or try to help the people in Mereen asking for her help? Isn’t the awful suffering of normal life in Slaver’s Bay in desperate need of revolution? If Slaver’s Bay was the setting of a fantasy series without a larger world, readers would BEG for someone to change things. But because our story begins in Westeroes, we think of that as the main story and always discard Essos as meaningless.
The problem lies in the readers, not in the writing.
@2, Quentyn is clearly the Sun’s Son, so why would he be named twice?
@7 Dany is far from stupid. She may occasionally make dumb decisions, but she’s only ever been able to learn from experience. And despite not having Maesters, Septons and Kings to teach her, she figures it out on her own. Which yes, means stumbling. She stumbled in Yunkai and Astapor and tried to do it right in Meereen. She still made mistakes but succeeded far better than in the first two. And she’s determined to continue succeeding. She determined to save the lives and freedoms of thousands. That’s to be admired, not scorned.
I also don’t think she handled the situation with Quentyn at all badly. She laughs a the frog becoming a prince, but then yells at her court (Daario included) when they disrespect him.
I don’t view Q as the perfumed seneschal. I have others in mind for that.
Yeah, there are several candidates for the “perfumed seneschal”, but I never saw Quentyn as one.
Does Hizdahr wear perfume? I bet he does.
@9: And the lessons she learns by the end (Spoilers) ———— We both know how she came to reject her former policy of small gradual change. she seem far more poised by the end to burn down what she considers morally reprehensible. ——————
I always find it a little funny that people really go out of their way to disparage the relationship Dany has with Daario. That it is really so out there and cannot be understood. I dislike it too, but I don’t find it odd that she is attracted to Mr Purple hair considering her other relationship with Drogo. Its not so much them both being bloodstained warriors that she seems to like, it seems to me that they both have an interest in Dany being a powerful woman in her own right. When Dany began to learn the Dothraki language herself, becoming adept at riding, and even have the initiative to impose herself on some of his warriors Drogo was really proud of her. In a similar vein Daario is someone that wants Dany to be powerful and rule in her own right, not someone that would marry another man and let him be her lord. They are (in Drogo’s case “were”) individuals that don’t seem to be wanting to make woman equal to men in status, as evidenced by Drogo enslaving other woman and Daario’s other remarks, but they both have an appreciation for Dany to be a powerful woman in her own right.
@10 – More important to whom? Not Selmy, the Martells, the Greyjoys, Tyrion if he ever meets her, or Mormont if they are reunited. Are we really sure it’s even more important to her?
If she decides to just be the Queen of Mereen, you have to wonder at what point her crew takes off for Westerous without her.
@10 you make a good point and I have often wondered what Dany’s ultimate end will be. As much as I like Dany, do I necessarily want to see her on the Throne or think she has a particular right to it, especially now that the dynasty has changed hands so many times?
@author:
I think the “peace” that is convincing Daenerys to marry Hizdahr is the absence of Son of the Harpy attacks that has prevailed since he agreed to give her 100 days of peace. The peace she is selling her hand for is freedom within the city from terrorism.
There’s also reason to suspect that her other enemies will back down if she marries Hizdahr. The cities fielding armies against her are doing so because they fear that she will free their slaves. They don’t really care a lot what goes on in Meereen. If Daenerys marries into a slave owning family, reopens the pits, allows folks to sell themselves into slavery, stops freeing people, etc, then her enemies will probably content themselves with it
Sure, they’d like to turn back the clock and reenslave the folks she freed, but not so much that it is worth fighting the Mother Of Dragons over. If she forsakes her slave-freeing ways they can regard her actions as more or less a natural calamity, a storm that devastated one part of their system, but then abated. In a few decades everything will be back to normal for them.
@11, @13: They are all the perfumed seneschal. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them.
@18, unfortunately, I suspect things would not end well at Meereen. She is an outsider and other than the slaves, everybody hates her. The slaves on the other hand have no idea how to live an independent live, let alone govern a city. She also had to cage her dragons, which is a no-no in this world (remember Lady and Grey Wind?). She has to decide whether she is the mother of dragons or the queen of Meereen. I suspect Meereen will betray her and she will answer with blood and fire.
@6 You are saying that Dany should leave a council to rule in her place in Meereen and leave, but that is exactly what she did in Astapor, and that didn’t work. The horror that happened in Astapor as soon as she left is exactly the reson she doesn’t want to leave for Meereen. Dany was naive before – when she started her whole crusade in slaver’s bay. Because then she thought that she can quickly free all the slaves, leave good and wise councils to rule, and then leave for Westeros. But then she saw what happened to Astapor, and is determined not to let it happen again.
@7 I don’t think her rule in Meereen is stupid, and she definitely was not insulting Quentyn (Daario was, but Dany made him shut up). You are misinterpreting the laugh, I think – she laughed at the frog/prince joke, not at Quentyn himself. Overall she is not perfect, of course, but so far she seems to be doing fine. She made peace with the sons of the harpy and the killings of her people have stopped. The peace has to be followed by a wedding between the two sides – these are the rules of this world, and Dany agreed to marry a man she does not love, sacrificing her happiness for the greater good – that is admirable imo. Dany’s effort to make peace between the freed slaves and the nobles/harpies actually mirrors Jon’s effort to make peace between the night watch and the wildlings (which most people seem to find clever). I think the problem is that meereenese culture is so alien and unlikable that people just hate everything about Meereen without giving it too much thought.
@10 Exactly. In Slaver’s Bay Dany is fighting against slavery. In Westeros there are no slaves, and the smallfolk don’t care who sits the iron throne. In Meereen Dany can potentially change the world for the better, but in Westeros it would be yet another pointless civil war.
@20, But seneschal has a specific meaning and it’s NOT an envoy for other powers. It means administrator or steward. And if it referred to all of them, why is the prophecy NOT “perfumed seneschals”?
Well, all the fault lies with Doran, what? Did he wait until Twyin was dead to send Quentyn? It’s bad timing, and also, did they just cross out her brother’s name and pen her and Quentyn in? lol Nice try.
Is the dark flame Marwyn or Moqorro? Place your bets. (Roll over to read)
It’s always seemed to me that this Meereen business is a mildly interesting sideshow to the main story, and one that was perhaps better suited for a different book dealing with progressive social change in a fantasy setting. What is the main story then? Probably something to do with the events of the prologue in the first book.
Q: What is the difference between a douchebag and a douchecanoe?
A: Daaaaaario.
@22 – She can’t leave a council or surrogate in charge because she is a dictator not a builder of Republics. Dany has no ideas or guiding principles on self-determination, just some selective emotional reactions. She may be freeing slaves but she’s doing it as a tyrant and Martin is twisting the knife to make it clear how stupid hereditary monarchy really is. People have to submit to this crazy teenage girl who rolled into town with a magic last name – because her thugs and mercenaries will kill anyone who resists.
Installing a different tyrant will Fail spectacularly for obvious reasons.
Disclaimer: I have a deep and wide anti-authoritarian streak.
@25 At this point, Leigh considers Moqorro to be dead, so it’s a bit of a spoiler mentioning him as a candidate for Dark Flame.
@24, No he waited until the rumors of Dany’s rise reached Westeros.
@23: I imagine that “The Perfumed Seneschal” is a common phrase in Essos (something that one might see used in other contexts). A seneschal, or steward, serves someone else, not Danaerys, which is what Quaithe is saying. Remember the Undying? They acted like they were giving her stuff, that they were on her side, and instead they were siphoning away her spirit. In Quaithe’s vision, all these people who come after the pale mare are the same. They all want something from her, and offer only sweet-smelling wind in return. She should trust none of them. “Beware the perfumed seneschal.” That last phrase is a summary of everything else, not a new concept thrown in at the last minute.
(something that one might see used in other contexts).
Except we haven’t seen it used in other contexts, so without that context, inventing a definition is just silly.
The “mummer’s dragon” should be obvious if you think about what a mummer is and who, traditionally, has been referred to as dragons.
How was Dany a “douche” to Quentyn? Because she didn’t drop at her knees and worship him for delivering her a marriage proposal from across the world, without offering any armies or other assistance that she can have right now? Because she was not attracted to him? She didn’t mock him or insult him, she just laughed once to herself at the “prince/frog” thing. Or did she commit a thought crime by thinking that Quentyn was not particularly attractive?
Re: mummer’s dragon… You should follow Quaithe’s advice and remember the House of the Undying. That was the first time Dany saw a mummer’s dragon in a prophecy, as one of the series of prophetic images of lies she is supposed to “slay”. Re-reading that chapter several times during the later books is very useful for seeing what has already come to pass and how differently some of the prophecies seem.
(ACOK, Daenerys IV)
(ACOK, Daenerys V)
@2, 20: I really don’t think that Quentyn is the “perfumed seneschal”. There’s no reason to mention him twice, and he doesn’t fit the description. And no, they can’t all be “perfumed seneschals”. It’s singular, just one. “Beware the perfumed seneschal”. Not to mention that none of them fit the description, at least not those we can identify – Victarion, Tyrion, Quentyn. Neither of them holds the position similar to that of a steward, and none of them is perfumed. Can you imagine anyone calling Victarion a perfumed seneschal?!
Whoever it is, it is someone else, none of the other mentioned people. Quaithe just tells Dany not to trust any of them – but the perfumed seneschal is the one she needs to beware. He sounds far more dangerous.
@3, @6 – So, Dany is a stupid, shallow teenager because she has the sense of responsibility to the people of Meereen and all the former slaves who are looking to her for protection, and because she wants to make sure Meereen does not descend into chaos as Astapor has, and that slavery is not reinstated? Because she has realized that she can’t just come, liberate slaves, overturn a system and walk away? To quote Oz from Buffy, this makes the kind of sense that’s not.
Why exactly should Dany prioritize the throne of Westeros, ASAP, over ensuring the stability in Meereen? Are the people of Westeros anxiously awaiting her? Is Westeros somehow objectively more important than Essos? Dany has never even been to Westeros, unless we count being born on the island of Dragonstone. And how would leaving Meereen in a mess and going to Westeros to start another civil war make her look like a mature and responsible leader that any realm would need? Why would such a person be great for Westeros?
@7 “But no, Quentyn doesn’t make her panties tingle” – So what? Neither does Hizdahr. But she is marrying him, for politics, because she is focused on Meereen. (Whether or not marrying Hizdahr is a good way to solve the problem – I think it’s a mistake, but I can see why Dany is doing it.)
@10 Exactly.
@17 ” “More important to whom? Not Selmy, the Martells, the Greyjoys, Tyrion if he ever meets her, or Mormont if they are reunited”!
To the hundreds of thousands of slaves in Essos who consider Dany “mother”, liberator and protector?
Why should Dany care what’s important to the Martells, Greyjoys, or Tyrion, people she has never met and who are nothing to her? And since when is she guided principally by what Jorah or Barristan want – and why should she be?
@25: “It’s always seemed to me that this Meereen business is a mildly interesting sideshow to the main story, and one that was perhaps better suited for a different book dealing with progressive social change in a fantasy setting. What is the main story then? Probably something to do with the events of the prologue in the first book.”
Then the War of the Five Kings ad 95% of the plot was also a sideshow to the main story, and everything that every POV character has been doing, other than Jon, Samwell and maybe Melisandre, was also just a sideshow, since it had nothing to do with the Others.
Given all of the prophesies going around in the books (Azor Ahai, the prince that was promised, etc) and the theories that this might be Dany, it would seem pretty disappointing to have her just flounder in Meereen (either succeeding or failing there) and not go to Westeros. While yes there is a big world out there, the whole story comes back to Westeros otherwise having her there is just a massive red herring for the whole series.
Froggy went a courting, but this girl is no Miss Mousie.
So no escape from Faildouchestanitania quite yet. Sorry.
On reading the quoted line about Daario awakening the feeling of mutual love she had lost with Drogo’s death, my reaction wasn’t “Everything is truly messed up” but “Awww.” Daario is a giant slimy caudal peduncle (the base of a fish or whale’s tail), but I approve of the joy he inexplicably brings to that lonely girl.
Fans have noted the differing parallel paths by rulers in AFFC/ADWD. Dany tries hard to please, protect, or placate everyone, her self-serving affair with Daario notwithstanding. Jon does what he considers right with apparent disregard for the opinions of the people closest to him. Cersei serves only herself and to a lesser extent her children, ignoring any counsel she disagrees with or any impact on other people. Different strategies, different disasters….
“Daario is hot, or something. Who cares.” — UNspoiled chapter heading.
@1: (roll over for GoT show reference) /// I thought that meme originally came from the line in the show. Apparently not. ///
@33: That’s true in terms of narrative, but not in terms of Dany’s motivations. She doesn’t know about the Others – nobody really takes the idea of them seriously outside of wildlings from beyond the Wall and the Night’s Watch members, the people who have had the misfortune to meet them – and she isn’t even aware that the red priests in Volantis and Maester Aemon consider her the second coming of Azor Ahai/Prince(ss) that Was Promised.
There is no reason why she would, at this point, see going to Westeros as something that would concern the fate of the world, as opposed to just her attempt to retake her family’s throne. And thinking that the people of Westeros have just been waiting for her to save them would be immature acceptance of Viserys’ stories.
@34: Apparently, the meme is much older: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-had-one-job
Ok, it’s time for me to stop lurking and throw my few sticks on the fire…
@3 That’s just an expectation we as readers have foisted off on Dany’s character; when I look at what Dany has been through since we met her, I’d have a huge problem with her having any real motivation to go back to Westeros.
@@.-@ Yes, agreed. Dany isn’t one to delegate a responsibility she took on if doing it means a repeat of the last two disasters. However… this is a series where trying to do the right thing more often than not ends up in personal disaster for the character involved.
@6 But as you observed in #3, she’s a vain, clueless TEENAGER. (I’m not quite ready to throw “shallow” at her just yet.) She has a huge amount of power she was never trained in exercising and has no really trustworthy advisers to help her learn on the job. Ideally, Drogo would have lived long enough to allow her time and room to gain the experience she needs to figure out how to make the changes she feels need to be made.
@7 Ok, how many teens AREN’T thinking somewhat with their crotches at her age? And what kind of training or experience has she had in ruling before this? Sigh Is there a trope or expectation I’m missing here? Something along the lines of, “The wisdom was included in the box with the power that was just delivered to your address. If you don’t see it – it was enclosed in a plain brown envelope marked “WISDOM – DO NOT DISCARD” – check the floor around the box or file a claim with the shipping company because everything was there when we sent it.”
@9 Pretty much…
@10, 12 I agree. Westeros needs Dany way more than she needs them (or wants to deal with them) at this point.
@16 Interesting point, although I don’t agree that it applies to Daario’s motivations (disclaimer: I don’t like or trust Daario’s character. So, yes, I’m biased.)
@17 Seeing as how Dany is making a concerted effort to establish the relations and powerbase that will allow her to work on the changes she wants to see in Meereen at the risk of her dragons and her life, I’d say it’s important to her.
@18 I was thinking along those same lines. The current war is at the point where no one can be sure that it won’t be ended and power consolidated in time to try to deal with the coming Winter. Dany and her dragons would, if they returned, extend this process to the point of utter disaster for the people of Westeros. (JMHO)
@19, 21, 22 These are all excellent points to consider. My question is, what is most likely to give GRRM the most opportunity for the trope and expectation destruction he seems to crave?
@26 Yess… we, Dany’s dragons smell your hatred, hear your disgust, taste your disdain for our mistress; it will only add savor to her redemption and ultimate triumph!! (Man, I always wanted to write that. :) ) Seriously, though; how is she crazy? She’s a teenager who inherits a legacy of extreme magical power that she is untrained in the use of, this after many years of abuse at the hands of family and others; to my knowledge she’s never been taught how to run a holding, let alone a whole country; how can you expect her character to be completely rational and perfect in every decision she makes?
Mea culpa: I couldn’t get the Check for New Comments button to work either. And I type slow. Sorry about that.
Dany’s chapter has a lot of sex. A lot. It’s from a female perspective, but it’s very uncomfortable to read. There are some things you don’t need to know.
Moving on. At least Quentyn finally reached her. It was funny to see him being judged by another POV. It’s always fun when two POVs meet. We already know how the non-POV thinks, so seeing them from the outside is refreshing. Quentyn never really considers that he might be unimpressive to a young Targaryen Queen.
My problem isn’t with Dany’s decisions here, but with Mereen itself. The place simply doesn’t have enough compelling characters to make us care about it. I care about Dany, and I admire her efforts to end slavery, but I can hardly remember the names of the people in Mereen.
It’s a problem with the worldbuilding there. I would’ve loved if Dany tried all this in Braavos or Volantis. Those cities seem more interesting. Also, more connected to the rest of the world. Mereen feels apart from the world. It’s only important because Dany’s there.
@25 and @32: I do care more about what happens in the North, but I dislike the phrasing “main story”. It seems a little reductive. There’s no main story; there’s a story. Some parts are more interesting and other parts are less so, it depends on who’s reading.
Has Dany really decided if Mereen is a sideshow / stop-over or her #1 priority? She certainly seems torn on it. That has probably lead other characters and the readers to make their own conclusions. Maybe that’s why everyone feels like she’s floundering right now – nobody knows what the hell they are trying to accomplish.
@30: Sure we have! Do you remember the ship in which Tyrion left Volantis? So far, that’s the only literal “perfumed seneschal” we’ve seen in the books. Now that it’s sunk, it doesn’t seem too likely to me that Quaithe was warning Danaerys about it. I think Martin put the ship in to show it’s a common phrase, like “Black Crow” or “Frog Prince.”
@32: I recognize that it would be cool if that line (“perfumed seneschal”) referred to someone else, and Martin clearly wants Danaerys to question whether various people are the perfumed seneschal from her warning, but I feel that when the last line is interpreted to refer back to the other figures as a general case, the prophecy has a nice self-enclosed cadence to it. “Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.” It just sounds like a final summary to me. :) If it isn’t that, the last line comes across like “Oh, and another thing…” which is odd. Quaithe’s message is very specific otherwise: some people are coming, and Dany shouldn’t trust them, full stop.
Victarion’s suit will be amusing, I agree. I can’t wait to see him trying to woo Danaerys, though the idea of him trying to dress himself up a bit (perfuming himself, so to speak) before going to her isn’t completely out there. Then again, like Leigh notes, her sole frame of reference for a compatible lover is Khal Drogo. Is Victarion that different from her sun-and-stars?
@41: I don’t see how that works either grammatically (if all of them are perfumed seneschals, why is she warning Dany against “the perfumed seneschal”?) nor semantically (none of them are seneschals and none of them are perfumed or could be described as perfumed).
It seems like a completely random interpretation, as if I said that “sun’s son” refers to Mya Stone, because of… reasons.
This is not correct, but I can’t explain the other possibilities without getting into what would be spoilers under the rules of these posts.
@42: Grammatically, I think it’s a general plural, like “The lion is dangerous when provoked,” or “The dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike.” Semantically, let’s look at The Sun’s Son. Who does he serve? Whose “steward” is he? He serves Dorne, House Martell, and Prince Doran. He may not be their literal steward, but he certainly answers to them before he answers to Danaerys. I think he is figuratively perfumed by coming to her as a supplicant, presenting a pleasing air that masks his true scent. Victarion seems likely to make a similar approach, ostensibly as a kind of steward to his older brother’s interests and those of the Iron Isles.
Why do you think Quaithe says “Remember the Undying”? Is that a new thought after “Trust none of them,” or is she continuing the same warning?
@43 Pretty sure that phrase hasn’t been used anywhere else.
“Pretty sure that phrase hasn’t been used anywhere else.”
But we might have met people who were seneschals, or something that could reasonably be described as seneschals, and also wore perfume, or were associated anyway with some sort of strong smell.
For example – and I don’t think this is a spoiler because it’s clearly not him, and what’s more he’s dead – you might call Tywin Lannister a “perfumed seneschal”. He was Hand of the King – so he ruled in the King’s absence. And, post mortem, he was certainly “perfumed”. Hell, even Davos might count – he’s Hand of another King, and he’s generally referred to as the Onion Knight.
For what it’s worth, I hit “refresh” instead of “check for new comments”, and that works fine.
@39, I would’ve loved if Dany tried all this in Braavos
There is no need for Dany to try this in Braavos, Braavos is the most equitable place we’ve seen. There is no slavery to start with.
@44 Whose “steward” is he?
No one’s. He is not a steward. He’s a Prince. Jeyne Poole’s father was a steward. You keep redefining words so you can force your ideas into the story.
“Remember the Undying” is part of the same warning. The Undying wished to use Dany’s power towards their own ends, as do the suitors. “Beware the perfumed seneschal” is a NEW warning, someone who wishes to remove her from power, or take it from her. The suitor NEED Dany to be powerful or she isn’t any use to them. So she shouldn’t trust them, but they aren’t interested in hurting her. The perfumed seneschal is another matter, that person she should BEWARE.
@41
I always assumed that Victarion was sent to bring Dany back by force. His mission is to kidnap the girl and her dragons, using the horn to presumably control them. I never imagined that he aims to woo her in any way. More like he’s wading into a war zone and stealing what he needs.
“I never imagined that he aims to woo her in any way. More like he’s wading into a war zone and stealing what he needs.”
I don’t think he’d recognise the distinction between those two concepts.
Is Varys a “perfumed seneschal”?
(Yes he’s ostensibly “on her side” but its possible to be a danger to those you want to protect, see e.g. Cersei)
Is Varys infallible, or is something he set in motion dangerous to Dany?
@41 THANK YOU, I was just sitting here, scrolling and thinking, “Have we seen a ship named Perfumed Seneschal? Sounds like something GRRM would name a ship. Cinnamon Wind … Perfumed Seneschal … Fetid Douche, I don’t even… “
I’m inclined to agree with your theory about that part of the prophecy. Think of the saying “Beware the answer quickly given”. It’s not a prophecy about a specific answer, but general advice about any time someone gives you an answer too quickly to a question that should require time for thought.
So yes, I think it seems more likely that “Beware the perfumed seneschal” falls in the general advice part of that monologue, and is not a specific prophecy. However, either possibility is still certainly, er, possible.
Not, mind you, that I think it’s a summary of all the afore mentioned people in the prophecy. As was mentioned, the monologue seems to fall into two sections. The specific prophecy section, and the general advice section. “Beware the perfumed seneschal” to me seems like just a warning to be wary of any one who’s being a little too smooth, not a prophecy that a specific such person is coming.
@53: Well, Quaithe never says that the Perfumed Seneschal is coming. She said that the others were coming, but she just says that she should beware the Perfumed Seneschal.
I don’t think that “Remember the Undying” was about remembering what the Undying did to her, I think she was telling Dany to remember the prophecies from the House of the Undying, which will be very important. Some of them have already come to pass (one of them even literally – the vision of herself on her silver, surrounding by 10000 slaves greeting her, that was the exact scene from A Storm of Swords after Dany took Meereen; the Red Wedding was also one of the visions in THOTU). Quaithe’s prophecies the visions from THOTU intersect at least in some ways – as I pointed out above, the mummer’s dragon (a cloth dragon on poles, surrounded by a cheering crowd) was one of the visions she saw there. Maybe some of the others, like the corpse on the prowl of the ship, grey lips smiling sadly, is Victarion?
Let me try and match these:
“Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”
I’m going from the perspective that the Others army of the dead is unbeatable except by something that can obliterate them without adding to their ranks. That is, army’s won’t beat it, only dragons can. Thus, the world’s fate would depend on Daenerys getting to Westeros and heading before the Others come south and kill enough civilians that their army is too vast to be overcome.
Pale Mare: Disease
Evidence: I think its straight up stated that in Meereen the flux is called the pale mare.
Consequences: Folks will die. Our characters are rich though, so they’ll probably escape the disease.
Kraken: Victarion Greyjoy,
Evidence: Greyjoy sigil is Kraken, no others are coming that we know of.
Consequences: rapist and killer, he’ll seek to seize Daenerys and her dragons
Dark Flame: Marwyn the maester
Evidence: He burned an obsidian candle, thus, “dark flame”.
Consequences: He seeks to protect Daenerys from the “grey sheep”, other Maesters, and their dragon killing poisons. More broadly, he is the most plausible source for yanking Daenerys to the main plot. He won’t want to risk the dragons (because they seem to enhance magic in the world, and that’s something he wants)
Lion: Tyrion
Evidence: Lannisters are lions, he’s the only one approaching.
Consequences: Tyrion will try and get her to go back to Westeros, seeks her help in killing and raping Cersei.
Griffin: Griff (Jon Connington)
Evidence: Griffon’s Roost, lord of. Fake name is Griff.
Consequences: I expect the peril from Jon is that he’ll try and get Daenerys embroiled in Westerosi strife rather than heading north to fight the Others.
Sun’s Son: Our boy Quentyn Martell
Evidence: He’s a Martell, their sigil is the sun.
Consequences: Yet another member of the “do something that isn’t saving the world” club.
Mummer’s Dragon: Aegon
Evidence: He’s a Targaryen(maybe), their sigil is the dragon.
Consequences: Final temptation for Daenerys. Will she turn aside from her destiny to save the last member of her family?
Perfumed Seneschal: Can’t talk about without spoilers. Worth noting that Daenerys is only to “not trust” the others. This is the one to beware.
@52 Tabbyfl55: Clearly the “Fetid Douche” must be a canoe. ;)
@46 a1ay “But we might have met people who were seneschals, or something that could reasonably be described as seneschals, and also wore perfume, or were associated anyway with some sort of strong smell.”
Yes, but my point was that if the argument is that Quaithe is being specific rather than general, the ship is the only literal case of “The Perfumed Seneschal” we’ve seen so far– it is literally called that. It’s hard to argue she must have been talking about a single subject when the best example of that subject we have is something that obviously isn’t a threat to her.
@53 Annara Snow: Does Quaithe know what Dany saw in the House of the Undying?
@53 Well, “remember the Undying” could mean, remember the prophetic visions you had there. But I’m more inclined to think it means something along the lines of, remember the experience you had with the Undying. People who were telling you they had your best interests at heart, and making it seem that way, but really they would have used you for their own interests.
That’s why it goes hand in hand with my interpretation of the perfumed seneschal bit. All the stuff before that was prophecy about specific people that would be coming. The last two lines are more general advice in my head.
So: “Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”
Would be translated to something like: “Remember those blue-lipped guys who were so nice to you until they tried to imprison you and drain your magics? Yeah, be careful about trusting guys like that who bow and scrape and say they want to serve you.”
I think everyone is missing a BIG CLUE about the “Perfumed Seneschal” that was given in a few Tyrion chapters back. Rollover…
Tyrion: “Tell me, was Selaesori Quoran a tri-arch or a turtle?”
The red priest chuckled. “Neither. Quoran is…not a ruler, but one who serves and counsels such, and helps conduct his business. You of Westeros might say steward or magister.”
King’s Hand? That amused him. “And selaesori?”
Moquorro touched his nose. “Imbued with a pleasant aroma. Fragrant, would you say? Flowery?”
“So Selaesori Quoran means Stinky Steward, more or less?”
“Fragrant Steward, rather.”
Tyrion gave a crooked grin. “I believe I will stay with Stinky. But I do thank you for the lesson.”
So Selaesori Quoran = Stinky Steward = Perfumed Seneschal perhaps???
@54 wlangendorf: One problem with Marwyn is that in our current timeline, he hasn’t yet met Sam and decided to seek out Danaerys. Now it’s possible that Quaithe is prophesying that he WILL decide to do this, but I think it’s more likely that these are visions she has of events as they happen. I imagine she actually sees “Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon” as they travel towards Danaerys. Also, Marwyn’s behavior and speech about prophecy being untrustworthy suggests to me a man who acts impulsively so that his actions cannot be easily predicted by prophecy. :) (I admit that could just be my fancy, and that prophecy doesn’t fall for that stuff.)
@60: That wasn’t missed, it’s been mentioned outright in the comments.
@58: Maybe. She knows a lot of stuff one would not normally know.
@60: The most important clue from that conversation isn’t that the ship was called something similar to Perfumed Seneschal (why would Dany need to beware of that ship? It can’t be about Tyrion, since she has already mentioned him as “lion”), but that what the word seneschal could refer to: a steward, a magister, but also a Hand of the King, or a counselor/advisor to a ruler; basically, someone who holds a high administrative position, or someone who is not a ruler, but a subordinate in a high administrative/counseling position who advises a ruler. There are lots of people who could meet that description (Quentyn and Victarion are not among them), but not many of them would be described as “perfumed”.
Dany herself has suspected Reznak mo Reznak, which is a likely sign it’s not him, since the solution to mysteries is usually never what the characters think.
“Remember the Undying” also sounds a lot like “don’t forget about THE FREAKING UNDEAD. THEY’RE COMING AND NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.”
Not that that’s the main thing Quaithe means by it, but I think it’s a pretty funny side interpretation.
@48: Yeah but, come on – Dany in Braavos? That practically writes itself.
There’s the Iron Bank, the Faceless Men, that house with the red door… The possibilities are endless. And who could blame her if she decided to stay there, under the shade of a lemon tree? Just send the dragons to fight.
As for the “perfumed seneschal” discussion, I just don’t trust Quaithe. We still don’t know her motivation. And a character without motivation is empty. Why is she helping Dany? Is she really helping? What does she get out of this? How does she know all these things? Why does she wear a mask all the time? Too many questions and not enough answers – it’s like Lost.
In fact, I hate that type of character – the kind who knows way too much about things they have no right to know. It’s like Melisandre before her chapter. And even Melisandre wasn’t right all the time. Also, we knew her motivation well before her chapter.
Perfumed seneschal – littlefinger? He’s certainly someone to beware of, and Dany will eventually run into him?
Re the idea of @3 that Dany turned down the offer of a lifetime by rejecting Quentyn, I really don’t think Dorne’s sincerity or strength stand up to close examination. Let’s consider strength first – in Doran’s POV chapters, he explicitly thinks that Dorne is a lot smaller than the other kingdoms, and would be utterly destroyed in a war. So ok, Dorne has sat out the War of the 5 Kings, which gives them an edge, but really the Vale is untouched too and the Tyrells (Dorne’s arch enemies) are virtually intact. If Dorne really had a shot militarily, Doran wouldn’t need to be so cautious.
And as to the other part, how sincere is Doran? Quentyn is sincere I’m sure, but he seems more like a cat’s paw than anything. Doran sent no help to Viserys and Dany when they were friendless and vulnerable, and it was sheer luck that Dany managed to survive. Doran showed interest only when Dany gathered forces of her own, through some very unlikely circumstances. Seems more like a bandwagoner than a sincere ally. And what did he send to Dany? Ok, he gets points for sending his own son, but by all appearances Arianne is the one close to his heart. And truthfully Doran should have known that his son wasn’t cut out to be envoy – Quentyn can’t possibly charm anyone into alliance, even if that someone wasn’t a lovestruck teenager. And what else did he send with Quentyn? No soldiers, no gifts, no gold, all of which would be extremely useful. Doran might not know Dany’s exact circumstances, but he surely could foresee that those things would be welcome. Instead he sends a decades old promise that is more of an obligation to Dany than immediate help. It’s no wonder that Dany didn’t think much of Dorne’s offering. I mean, Euron at least sent a fleet.
One more point about military strength. The one thing that everyone wants is Dany’s dragons. Because as stated in Tyrion’s POV, “if you want to conquer the world, you best have dragons.” And Dany is the ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD with dragons. The Golden Company doesn’t matter, Dorne doesn’t matter, Victarion’s fleet doesn’t matter. It’s all about the DRAGONS. So indeed Tyrion did something clever in diverting Aegon away without dragons, but it wasn’t for Aegon’s benefit at all.
@67 Or Varys. Varys appears to be on her side, but is he really?
Has anyone seen the Wheel of Time reread recently? It was on Tor.com yesterday, but today all the links have disappeared.
eheckscher,
I have (a minute ago), but when I put Tor.com in my favourites, I was on the Tor WOT page so in practice it is my Tor Home page. Try the search tool.
@68: Doran hasn’t been a POV character. Are you thinking of him talking about it in someone else’s Dorne-based chapter?
@72, oops you’re right. It’s the Arianne POV in AFFC right? Doran tells her that Dorne can not hope to win militarily.
I am late to this party so perhaps this has been said already – but I was always a tiny bit upset/not comprehending Dany’s outright rejection/reaction to Quentyn showing up. I don’t mean she should have entertained the thought – she has no reason to. But someone from Westeros coming to court her this way as an alliance – you would think that if Tyrion was there to hear this offer he would have said “Now hold on there Dany… we can use this as a chance to…” insert whatever you want.
Well folks, I am completely new to this read – just stumbled on it. But I read Leigh’s reread of AWOT in preparation for the last book (rather than reading them all for a third time) and I just want to say Leigh – I’m so happy that you’re reading commenting on ASOIAF!! Now, I am going to start at the BEGINNING. Catch up to everyone in a month or so!
@68 – Dorne would give Dany huge advantages in an invasion of Westerous. It offers a large base of operations, safe ports and harbors, supplies, and a large army that hasn’t been drained in the recent wars.
The hardest part of this kind of invasion is the landing. Marines and Paratroopers are consider elite because they do the hardest job – kicking in the door and creating a bridgehead. And they generally suffer very high casualties in the process. But with Dorne on her side, Dany’s army would be landing in friendly ports and be well-supplied from a cooperative Doran.
Yes dragons are the key if she can figure out how to train or warg them, but even Aegon the Conqueror had an army. He still needed to hold castles, and impose his will. Dragons are a terror weapon, you need more to rule.
@74 – Correct. It would have been wise to at least treat with the Dornish even if she wasn’t going to marry him. Some alternative arrangements could have been made.
Agreed. A Dornish alliance would be of significant help to Dany in any plan to conquer Westeros, including providing a safe and well protected spot to land troops and gather resources – not trivial assistance by any means – but would not in and of itself win her the War. She’d need to rely on her dragons plus other well intentioned lords who could switch sides once they showed some martial successes.
Sure – it would still be a tough fight, but far less so than just showing up at a random spot on the coast and trying to land an army.
@76, But where do we get any implication that she’s not still considering allying with them. Sure no marriage, but Dany’s not stupid. If Dorne had this plan all along, they don’t have any reason to not still go along with her when she arrives.
What if Dany was warned not about Quentyn but his companions (friends and/or sellswords) ?