O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! Arcanum Unbounded has hit bookstore shelves, mailboxes, and doorsteps across North America and the U.K.!
This beautiful book – and I do mean beautiful, in so many ways – collects all of Brandon Sanderson’s Cosmere short works to date, plus one new novella, so you want it for All The Reads. It has gorgeous all-new artwork inside and out, along with maps, essays, drawings, and postscripts for each system or story, so you want it for all the new material. In short, it’s a must-have for a Cosmere fan.
Before you click on that enticing cut, please be aware: HERE BE SPOILERS. SPOILERS. SPOILERS! I SAY. This is the spoiler review, and anything contained in the book will be fair game for discussion here and in the comments. Within the book, the cover page for each story contains a warning for any books that would be spoiled by reading the short work first. Here, they will all be spoiled. You have been Warned.
For fans of Sanderson’s many worlds in the Cosmere, most of the stories will be familiar, at least by name. Briefly, the contents include two stories set on Sel; three set on Scadrial; excerpts of both the graphic novel and the original draft of White Sand, set on the planet Taldain; one on the minor world of Threnody; one in the minor Drominad system; and one on Roshar.
All but the last of these have been published before, either in anthologies, as con-special doubles, as stand-alone novellas, or as e-books. Now they’re all collected in one place for your reading (and bookshelfing) pleasure. In their new setting, they’re a sight to see, starting with…
The cover. I love the cover, with its hint of mystery and promise of revelation. I assume the person is Khriss, but we don’t get to see her face; it’s hidden in the shadows of her hood. All we can see clearly is the book, with the new Cosmere symbol on the front. Mysteries still abound, but the book contains Information.
The endpapers. Oh, the endpapers!! Isaac Stewart has gone all out for this book. I’m longing for this poster, which will be available in Brandon’s online store in time for the holidays, I’m told. It will soon be MINE. MINE, I tell you.
The drawings. If you’ve been following Tor’s teasers, you got a look at the new drawing of Shai in her room for The Emperor’s Soul. Each story has its own new drawing, all from Ben McSweeney (IIRC), and they are worth the price of admission all by themselves.
Okay, moving on… Khriss and Nazh have been busy lately; they have given us, respectively, an introduction and a map for each star system mentioned above. Whatever you do, do NOT skip these. They are chock full of things you didn’t know before about the planets, the systems, the magic, the Shards, and even some ancient history of the Shards; if you didn’t do it right away, go read them now. We’ll wait.
Did you ever hear of Silverlight? Mwahahahaha! Silverlight: the Restaurant at the End of the Cosmere.
Seriously, though, we have no solid information on what Silverlight is. A city? A planet? A spaceship? It could be almost anything. All we know is that it has “universities” and “societies,” and expeditions have been sent out from it. There is also an unsubstantiated (AFAIK) rumor that the star chart on the endpapers is as viewed from Silverlight, which I think would be very cool if it proves true.
One more example of the many shiny new things in Khriss’s notes: what happened to Threnody. Casually blowing holes in some otherwise fine theories, she tells us about two continents – one occupied by a creeping darkness, the other a frontier; both the people and the planet have been twisted by an ancient conflict between the Shards Odium and Ambition. While this was not the location of Ambition’s final Splintering, this clash resulted in a mortal wound, and the power loosed in the process did some very, very strange things to the system.
I could spend all day talking about the new material wrapped around the stories, but I’ll restrain myself and let y’all pick your own favorites to discuss in the comments.
The final work, the new Lift novella Edgedancer, is destined to become a favorite for many, I think. It was originally intended to be around 17,000 words, right about the dividing line between a novelette and a novella. However, as he notes in the Postscript, Brandon decided to make use of this opportunity to show a couple of things that would otherwise have to happen off-screen, weaving them together in a single narrative. The result is approximately 40,000 words… which just happens to be right at the dividing line between a novella and a novel. For a Sanderson work, it’s a novella; for many other authors, it would be a full novel. Stormlight Archive 2.5, anyone? Appropriately, the whole thing is a slightly bizarre mixture of intensity and levity, swinging between the two with unexpected but flawlessly executed timing.
These two major events—and I fully agree, it would have been frustrating to the reader to find that they had happened between books—are both part of the climax. The opening isn’t nearly so portentous: it’s just Lift being… well, Lift. Apparently irresponsible and childish, her actions are based on underlying motivations she won’t admit even to herself. She insists she left Azimir because they were trying to “eat” her – trying to give her food, clothing, lessons, trying to turn her into someone else that wasn’t her. So she “escaped,” heading south to Yeddaw, her ostensible goal being to steal pancakes. Yep. That’s Lift.
Of course, the fact that Nale is in Yeddaw is just pure coincidence…
In what feels like a perfectly natural follow-on to Words of Radiance, the story of Edgedancer ties together Lift’s Surgebinding development, interruptions to natural weather patterns, Nalan, Szeth, the Everstorm, a new Ideal, and the unequivocal arrival of a new Desolation. In the process, Wyndle is hilarious: gardening chair-souls? Really? My favorite, hands-down, were his unintentional hints about Shardblades, which Lift didn’t get at all but were totally obvious to the reader. For example, characteristic of the weird combination of tension and humor throughout the novella, this:
Darkness emerged into the storm, rising from the hole in the clifftop. He saw her, then stepped forward, raising his Shardblade like an axe.
He swung.
Lift screamed. She let go of Wyndle’s vines and raised both hands above herself.
Wyndle sighed a long, soft sigh, melting away, transforming into a silvery length of metal.
She met Darkness’s descending Blade with her own weapon. Not a sword. Lift didn’t know crem about swords. Her weapon was just a silvery rod. It glowed in the darkness, and it blocked Darkness’s blow, though his attack left her arms quivering.
Ow, Wyndle’s voice said in her head.
Ow, he says. Oh, Wyndle.
There are so many things I could point out: Lift trying to live up to the image Nalan painted of Edgedancers and their gracefulness. The appearance of our first Dysian Aimian, who is totally creepy. Snippets about other Edgedancers – a reference to Ym, and the new one known as the Stump. The appearance of Szeth and Nightblood—who likes Lift, incidentally—in company with Nalan and a couple of minions. The arrival of the Everstorm, and the transformation of the parshmen.
A new Ideal: I will listen to those who have been ignored.
A Herald in crisis: “Storms. Jezrien … Ishar … It is true. I’ve failed.”
An unexpected response: She hugged Darkness… He clung to her and wept in the storm.
I know, they’re the obvious ones, but they really are my favorite lines. What were yours? Why? Tell me about it in the comments!
Alice Arneson is a SAHM, blogger, long-time Tor commenter, Sanderson beta reader, and literature fan. She keeps thinking about trying her hand at creative writing, but… great story ideas are hard to come by, and there’s always another Sanderson book to read and to write about!
One word: Shardfork. I laughed out loud when Lift reaches her hand out, Wyndle appears as a Shardfork and she stabs the pile of pancakes.
Alice, is reference of “Dysian Aimian” meant to be Arclo?
So Arclo appears to know Axies. Is Arclo (and his knid — the Sleepless?) a native Rosharian? In other words, do the Sleepless pre-date humans being introduced onto Roshar? Like the Parshendi.
Also who/what are the Omnithi in the Cosmere?
Finally, we learn that Wyndle and his kind are Cultivationspren.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
Wyndle mentioned that cultivation spren are not very important. They’re not political. But since the Honor spren and the Cryptics are making their moves, the cultivation spren have to make a move too. This made me laugh so hard. LOL But, this comment also mirrors our own world and our own civilization. Anyway, it just made me wonder if there is hierarchy among the sprens, similar to the Alethi caste system which happens to have a certain level of fluidity.
Some of my favorite things were Handerwym’s footnotes at the end of the ebook.
Probably time for more later – but just quick – my friend asked (and I was there with him asking my own question) Brandon and Isaac at the Provo release where the perspective on the end papers is from – Brandon confirmed that it was from Silverlight, after checking with Isaac. There was some wonkiness in the response though – Isaac said something like as it was “imagined” from Silverlight, and I tried to get clarification for what that meant (is that because Silverlight is mobile?), but stayed pretty vague (got the impression he was maybe saying there was some sort of artistic license taken?). I consider it confirmed that it is from the perspective of Silverlight, but that that there is more going on there.
Should come up pretty quickly in the transcription from 17th shard for the signing line since we were pretty near the front of the line.
Alice, in Brandon’s post on his website from Nov. 22, he confirms that it’s Khriss on the cover.
The thing I found most surprising, given how he was at the end of WoR, was Szeth’s attitude toward Nin-son-God. I mean, he went crazy(ier) when he fought Kaladin, because if he wasn’t really Truthless then he had no excuse for his murders. (Well, even less of an excuse than “my master said so”). When Nin resurrects him and gives him his “you were right to follow the law (and it was really the Shin’s fault for not believing you anyway)” talk, Szeth latches onto this new excuse. So I would have expected him to be fanatically believing every word out of Nale’s mouth, because deep inside he’d know that if Nin was wrong, then it would all be his fault again. Instead, Edgedancer!Szeth openly thinks Nin-son-God is wrong, maybe even crazy. He goes as far as to disobey orders and let Lift live. Did I totally misread him, or is there something strange going on?
(A side thought: does “Nin-son-God” imply that the Shin literally believe the Heralds are the children of God)?
bad_platypus @5 – Yeah, I saw that after I’d uploaded the review. I was reasonably sure, but it was fun to get confirmation! :) Similarly with the Silverlight view of the galaxy – it was too good not to be true, but it’s nice to have official at-the-signing confirmation.
ETA: now you know that I don’t get all the good info from Team Sanderson ahead of time – I have to wait and learn from signing reports too!
Is Stump a confirmed Edgedancer? She is only shown to have the Surge of Regrowth so far but that could make her a Truthwatcher (I think, the same as Renerin), her Spren does not seem to be the same as Wyndle.
Also I’d go for a Shard Spoon. No bladed edges, much safer.
@8. Stump’s spren does not seem to resemble Wyndle, but it is described using the same sort of language as Ym’s spren (hers is like “sunbeams on a wall,” his like “crystals in sunshine”). Whom Wyndle mentions as one of the candidates for his bond. Without a proper description of Renarin’s spren Glys, this is the closest we can get.
ChocolateRob @8 – Don’t forget, we see Wyndle through Lift’s eyes, and she can see and touch the Cognitive Realm. For someone bonded to a cultivation spren but unable see into the Cognitive Realm, the descriptions from both Ym and Stump sound exactly like what they ought to see of a spren like Wyndle.
Lift’s admission of not knowing anything about swords, her use of a staff as her first Shard weapon, and her use of the Shardfork, there can only be one type of weapon for Lift: a Shard Trident. It has a staff portion for defense, 3 points for striking a Voidbringer and a fork like apparatus to stab food so Lift can maintain her awesomeness.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
Ooh, my local library already has it. *places hold request*
I need Lift. I need Lift with a Shardfork. And I agree 300% with AndrewHB. Lift should officially get a Shard Trident. For the reasons given, and several more. I don’t know the odds of that, but holy Carp it would be fabulous. :-D :-D :-D
Darn thief has stolen my brain.
Nothing profound to say just….I giggled at Nin-son-god and sword-nimi. Loved it. But I truly laughed out loud at Shardfork!!
@1 Yes, there are two types of Aimians–Dysian and Siah. Axies is a Siah Aimian. Arclo is Dysian. They are referred to as races, as if they really the same species with more or less superficial differences (which is pretty interesting, all things considered). I suspect that Dysian Aimians, at least, are all hivemind-type creatures but are not all necessarily formed from cremlings. I think that their souls bond to their respective horde bodies in a way similar to the spren/human bond of the Radiants (there are a number of other examples, as well, from the mechanism of the Listener forms to the spren that keep the macro-fauna from collapsing under their own weight). I have no evidence for this, really. It’s just a hunch.
As for that Shardfork, I am pretty sure that was drawn directly from a comment on Reddit, in a forum the author frequents. I dug around, and it looks like it was in an AMA. The redditor asked if Lift would get a Shardfork, and Brandon said that she would be likely to do something like that, but the whole thing came of as a jokey exchange. Needless to say, the person who asked the question was knocked right out of their chair when they got to the end of Edgedancer.
Lots of interesting and new info in “Edgedancer” and, of course, many new questions arise as well. Oh, and there are still humans on Ashyn? I wonder if those are Iriali. I used to think that they had escaped from Braize after Odium’s arrival into the system, but there doesn’t seem to be any indication that people ever lived there in Arcanum.
And Braize is cold – aren’t Alethi hells supposed to be hot? So the concept might be a reflection of memories/legends of Ashyn, rather than of Odium’s actual abode. And it is inhabited by sentient spren – presumably his splinters. Which, for some reason, exist on a physical plane.
The Aimians are seriously creepy and make me wonder how their homeland could have ever been “scoured”. Might the Dysians, at least, also be effectively sentient splinters – of Cultivation, I guess, that bond with lower life-forms in order to gain physicality?
We gained new insight into Nalan’s and Skybreakers – who, to my surprise turned out to be actual surgebinders, motivations, but there are even more mysteries. Like – was Ishar actually right or was it the case of another ex-Herald perversion? Or did he actually go over to the enemy? I mean, Desolations had been happening before the surgebinding was even a thing.
And while, as we know now, the spren attempts at Nahel bonds never completely ceased, they obviously stepped up their efforts a few years previously – presumably, because some of them had reasons to think that a new Desolation – and possibly a final confrontation between Odium and Cultivation? – was coming, and the others were just following suit, like Wyndle’s folks. So, why couldn’t they convince the highspren of this? And if the highspren weren’t convinced, how did Jasnah escape their clutches? Also, shouldn’t the highspren, alone of all sentient non-Odium spren, know about the apostasy of the Heralds?
In any case, the “wicked thing of eminence” that led to the Recreance has been revealed. And… between the Desolation starting anyway and defection of the Heralds, I really don’t see it having the effect in SoA that genius Taravangian expected. Because one way or another, there is no choice re: need for the Radiants until and unless the Desolation ends.
Oh, and we now have a possible explanation as to why there are so many aristocratic incipient Radiants. Because they would have been the only ones somewhat safe from Nalan, who needed his victims to be legally condemned before he could kill them. Now that’s a twist! Although I can’t help but wonder if he played a role behind the scenes in the Parshendi getting hold of Szeth conveniently just in time to off Gavilar. Or maybe his nervous companion from the WoR prologue, who has now been confirmed as another ex-Herald, did.
I conjecture that Lady Davar was somehow in the Skybreaker sphere of influence, which explains why T thought that Helaran would be looking for them. That makes the whole thing even more tragic in retrospect, since it seems that she wasn’t acting out of blind prejudice and may not have been an evil person. Skybreakers couldn’t get at Shallan themselves, since she was innocent, but they have used Lady Davar to try to get rid of her.
Finally, who is Ishar posing as? It seems like he must be on the Shattered Plains for Nalan to ask him for confirmation of events there. But Zahel/Vasher now seems unlikely (alas!), since he was actively helping Kaladin and didn’t try anything against the Kholins and Shallan. OTOH, there is some kind of connection between Zahel and Nalan – hence the transfer of Nightblood. Hm… Could he be Mraize?
Isilel @15: You said “In any case, the “wicked thing of eminence” that led to the Recreance has been revealed.” Please elaborate, I must have missed that reference.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
@6: Szeth is so adamant that the Desolation has returned because A) he saw the creation of the Everstorm and the Voidbringers firsthand and B) if the Desolation has not returned, then he is still Truthless.
I don’t think we’ve really gotten any more than clues to what the “wicked thing of eminence” was. It sounds like it has to do with voidspren (from Braize?) figuring out how to cross over into Roshar and wreak havoc in various ways by studying the Nahel bonds Radiants formed with their spren outside of the Desolations. Nalan’s fear is that this will lead to a new Desolation (which, unfortunately for him and everyone else, has already begun), but I think that there must be a precedent for this. My guess is that some of Dalinar’s visions involving strange evil creatures that are no longer seen on Roshar actually took place after the last Desolation. The Radiants finally realized that their bonds were what the evil spren were using–if indirectly–to get into the Physical Realm, and that was the reason for the Recreance. The Skybreakers, having a very rigid and regimented approach to the bond, were able to persist without the danger presented by the other Orders’ more freewheeling approach, and they changed their mission slightly. Rather than directly protect Roshar from danger, they would eliminate all nascent Surgebinders who could eventually open the door for a new Desolation. I also suspect that the Recreance was twofold: 1) a great number of Radiants broke their Oaths, and 2) the straggers who abstained were hunted down by the Skybreakers (the “subterfuge” mentioned in the excerpts from the in-universe book, Words of Radiance).
AndrewHB @16:
According to Nalan, Ishar, who is considered to be the foremost expert on the bonds convinced him that:
“If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation…”
it is pretty clear, IMHO, that the pair of them then somehow apprised the Radiants of the alleged danger while maintaining their incognito, or maybe even revealing themselves to select influential knights. Hence the Recreance. They – or maybe just Nalan, thought that extreme law-abidedness of the Skybreakers would make them the only Order that could safely continue, since their nature would preclude them from doing whatever it was they feared with the greater power of the oaths.
Now, whether Ishar’s thinking was warped by the madness that seems to affect all of the ex-Heralds, or whether he well and truly sold out to Odium and was softening up Roshar for him is a matter of debate. He might even have been right in principle, but failed to properly weigh the risks between a small chance of a premature Desolation and letting Roshar be a sitting duck without Heralds _or_ Radiants, when Taln eventually broke. It is also perplexing that they didn’t try to convince the spren themselves to forgo Nahel bonds. Or, indeed, that the spren seem to be unaware of Nalan’s murderous activities after so many of their bonding attempts have been ended by him. But then, maybe some of them are aware and therefore have been preferentially chosing people who would be hard to legally condemn in their societies.
And now to something completely different – does Adolin fit the 2nd and 3rd Ideals of the Edgedancers? I would say conditionally yes, though in a somewhat contrived manner.
I’d say that he definitely does. There are scenes where he defends darkeyes, something that seems to be vanishingly rare behavior among lighteyes. Then there’s the scene where Shallan criticizes Kaladin for being so hard on Adolin, and she points to what he’s doing at the moment–joking around with some darkeyes and letting one of them (I think a stablehand, maybe? haven’t read WoR in a year or so) try on his helmet. Remember, that’s a priceless ancient artifact that he’s handing over to him, if I’m remembering the scene correctly. Despite his inability to form lasting romantic relationships, so far, he has an easy rapport with almost everyone. He seems like a textbook candidate for the Edgedancers.
Despite what we have seen from Lift, aren’t Edgedancers also described as graceful and refined? That would fit quite well with Adolin as well.
Does Adolin fit within this new oath we have just learned? Not without a great deal of difficulties. I am forced to admit he doesn’t even begin to fit the Edgedancers we have met… They don’t just “remember and listen the forgotten”: they ARE the forgotten, but ones who managed to care for others, as best as they can, with their meager means.
Adolin isn’t a forgotten, he doesn’t even come close. Lift, Stump, Ym… They aren’t refined nor graceful: they are poor people and Wyndle doesn’t fancy being a weapon.
I personally feel this new perception on the Edgedancers is hardly reconcilable with Adolin’s character.
Hey, the posters are available on the Sanderson online store!! AND THEY ARE MINE!
Seriously, can I tell you something cool? I know not everyone can relate, but my geeky little heart is just bubbling with glee. Not only is there this beautiful constellation map, all the constellations have (currently unofficial) names. And furthermore, Team Sanderson knows specifically which stars are part of the Cosmere dwarf galaxy, and which ones are beyond the galaxy. Guys, they figured that stuff out, because… because Cosmere, I guess. Because they’re awesome and thorough? I don’t know, but it makes me inordinately happy. I always loved our own constellations, and my favorite part of studying mythology were the stories where this or that constellation got its name. I’m no great shakes as an astronomer, but I love the imagery. Then I went and married a guy who’s been an amateur astronomer ever since his dad took him out stargazing when he was a kid. Before we had kids of our own, we used to take our telescope and go on stargazing overnighters. So… I just really like constellations and things. I know, I’m fangirling like mad, but something about that map just gets deep in my heart.
Also? Team Sanderson. I know Brandon is spilling over with awesome stories, but he really has an amazing team that makes his books even better. Wow.
Also also: about Adolin as an Edgedancer – Ever since we learned that his Blade belonged to an Edgedancer, I’ve kinda hoped that he would become one somehow, and reawaken his Blade. While we don’t see a lot of impressive examples of Adolin remembering those who have been forgotten, or listening to those who are ignored (at least not at the level of the Stump’s kids), we do see a surprising amount of compassion and empathy with people who are far, far below his social status. The more we learn about Edgedancers, the less I’m able to rule it out as a possibility for him. But… I guess we have to RAFO.
Also also also, that Oathbringer status bar has moved up to 95% complete… He’s hoping to finish before he starts his tour, and that’s Tuesday. Can he churn out 22,500 words in two days?
@22
Keep in mind that the only known edgedancer we have seen is lift and she is not typical. Ym and stump are likely trurhwatchers.
@24: The novella clearly confirms both Ym and the Stump as Edgedancers. Wyndle mentions how he was to bond Ym, but he was killed before having said his first oath. At the time, he saw his spren as a light of sort. The Stump is clearly new enough she hasn’t said an oath either and her spren looks like “light in a mirror”, which is identical or practically identical to Ym’s experience. It is hinted within the story the only reason Lift can see Wyndle in his “final form” is because she is partly into the cognitive realm. It is also why he didn’t forget, why he sounds so evolve for such a young bond. If we look back at Kaladin, it took a while for Syl to embrace her fully formed shape. I suspect once the Stump progresses farther into her oaths, her spren will end up looking like Wyndle currently looks like.
As a whole, Ym, Stump and Lift does make it more unlikely for Adolin to ever be chosen by a Cultivationspren: he just doesn’t have the right pedigree. He cares, he protects, but does he listen? And is it enough? It isn’t nearly enough. Ym, Stump and Lift gave all they have to others. Adolin merely step into a fight to protect one woman, he laughed with darkeyed children and he sat in prison for Kaladin which is a lot considering his upbringing, but it is still leagues away from any of those characters.
@24: Considering I am the one who has been pushing for this theory, I am surprised to see I have become the only one to be dubious about its likelihood. To become an Edgedancer, I fear Adolin would have to give up everything he has: his title, his rank, his family name, his richness. Everything. He’ll have to become a beggar going from one place to another, without attracting notice, but offering care to the needy. It just doesn’t reconcile very well with who he has been so far and while he might have the right seed, he has the wrong background: he won’t throw it all away. Besides, there is only so much character development we can realistically expect out of Adolin: this seems like a great deal too much.
That has most definitely not been confirmed. Wyndle says “WE were CONSIDERING bonding.” Doesn’t sound like they ever actually did but something bonded to him or there would be no reason to kill him. Sounds like a truthwatcher spren beat them to the punch.
Where has it ever been said Edgedancers have to be beggars? They are always described as articulate, refined, graceful, sophisticated, absolutely lethal and much feared.
No, Adolin is not a perfect fit for any order now but none of them were. They all went through major and traumatic events that forced them to change into something new. There is certainly plenty of opportunity for traumatic events in Adolin’s life. The world is ending, he murdered a highprince, he is in love with a radiant that may wind up in a love triangle, his life is about to be chaos.
Another theory I quite like is that he may become an Edgedancer through a different route. He could resurrect the spren in his blade. To do this, it appears he will have to be broken and as I said, there are plenty of breaking opportunities ahead.
@26: Wyndle mentions often enough how he should have bonded Ym and not Lift… I took it it meant he was Ym’s initial spren, but the bonding never passed the first oath, so it wasn’t traumatic. I could be wrong, but this is how I read it.
If I am right, then it also confirms the Stump as a proto-Edgedancer and I couldn’t think of anyone being farther away both in attitude and personality from Adolin.
If I am right, then Edgedancers might prefer to take their members among the forgotten, people nobody look at twice, low profile individuals, not high ranked princes.
It has been theorized the “refined and articulate” side of the Edgedancers merely comes from their ability to mimic other’s speech, to blend in, unnoticed. Adolin doesn’t blend in: he stands out. There is also the fact Wyndle implies Lift should learn how to read, should educate herself and I certainly felt she was going back to Azir to do just that.
Can anyone even picture Adolin doing just that??? Learning how to read?
A lot of things could happen to Adolin, but I mean… can we realistically expect any of it to actually happen? Adolin doesn’t have a great deal lot of viewpoints, especially in book 3, his development thus has to be rather… limited.
I tried so hard not to read the spoilers before I got the book, and now. . .I’m not sorry. Three days is a thematically appropriate number to resist before giving in to temptation, yes? Three days with only a found and awful romance novel to read, knowing this was right here. . .
Gepeto @25, 27:
IMHO, it was stated pretty unambiguously in WoR and AU that Wyndle was never bonded to Ym – he wanted to, yes, like he also was drawn to an unnamed Iriali matron, but the governing body of his kind forced him to bond Lift instead. IIRC it is also pretty clear in WoR that Lift had Wyndle and could work the Friction surge for months, if not years, prior to her first appearance in WoR, while the book only covers about 2 months. Similarly, Ym would have had to swear at least the First Oath, in order to use Regrowth on other people.
I am still not entirely certain that both Ym and Stump are/were Edgedancers. One or both of them could have been Truthwatchers.
Nor do we know that Wyndle is a typical Cultivation spren and that they all share his predilections. In fact, given what Nalan said about Edgedancers of old in WoR, who were also very much a combat order according to him, I doubt it. IMHO, it is much more likely that even spren of the same kind, being sentient, are not carbon copies of each other, but can have quite different personalities.
Adolin certainly is associated with remembrance – of his mother, of fallen Kholin soldiers. Are they “forgotten” enough to qualify? Dunno, but a slight affinity is there. He also listens to people – to his own father, even when he seemed to be mad, to Shallan, to Kaladin, to Pattern, etc. After all, Lift gained her 3rd oath not just listening to the downtrodden, but also to Nalan – one of the most powerful and famous beings on the planet.
So, IMHO Adolin could still become an Edgedancer via revival of his shardblade, particularly if he has a chance to listen to the thousand or so surviving Parshendi under Thude(?) and/or Eshonai once she manages to kick out the storm spren that is currently possessing her. Sword-whispering for the win!
@29: Hmmm, I thought it was pretty obvious in the reading that Ym has been confirmed as an Edgedancer and having Stump’s spren look very similar also confirmed her as one… I took it Wyndle didn’t bond him not because the circle preferred Lift, but because he died. While I agree there might be a possibility they are Truthwatchers, I now find it hard to believe, especially when I combined the novella to this WoB Alice got for us a few months back, the one about Lift being in the cognitive realm influencing how she views Wyndle. I forgot the exact wordings, but I had always took it as a very strong sign Ym was an Edgedancer. Many theories sprouted from it which has undeniably come to pass now.
Perhaps someone could ask Brandon at one of the upcoming signings? Now Edgedancer is out, I suspect Brandon might be more willing to actually answer this one more clearly. It’d be great to get a firm confirmation since many do not seem to agree.
I’ll admit most of my current thinking is linked to both Ym and Stump being Edgedancers as they suddenly increase our sample of Radiants by a fair margin: I found them rather similar, even if quite different. All come from humble environment, none have fighting ability so to speak and while Lift might gain it, it seems less probably for the Stump and Ym, even though he is dead. All have been seen to engage in illegal activities (thieving, sphere traffic, Ym’s past is mysterious but it wasn’t preachy clean), but all, despite appearing selfish and careless, have given all they could to complete strangers just because they cared to. None were anywhere near the traditional definition of “refined”, none would be quality as “graceful”: they might become it, eventually, but they sure weren’t chosen for this reason. None are soldiers or involved in armed combat in any foreseen fashion.
It is thus, if I am indeed right and both Ym and the Stump are/were proto-Edgedancers, then it gives us a rather clear idea as to which individuals the order is looking for. In this optic, someone like Adolin, a rich slightly spoiled prince turned into a foolhardy soldier, would truly be the “odd one out”. While he is associated with remembrance, he has yet to display the qualities of our other Edgedancers. Sure, when witnessing bullying, he intervenes. Sure it is admirable, considering where he comes from, but it is all he does. He is a Prince. He is Rich. He has Agency. If he wanted to make things better for lowly prostitutes, he actually has the means to make a case for it. In other words, Adolin has a great deal more means than Lift, Stump and Ym, but he does much less than they with them. As for listening, yes, he listens to Kaladin, but he also believes lighteyes are standing above the darkeyes for a reason: he believes in the order of the world. He closes his eyes on the fact it creates “forgotten” everywhere. He hasn’t yet lift one single finger to attempt to change the world: something all other Radiants have yearned to do, despite their limited powers. Can he truly listen? Are you really listening Adolin?
It is why I am starting to doubt he will go there. It suddenly seems as if the transformation, while certainly not impossible, would require a great deal lot of change from Adolin. He will need to go through quite an ordeal to make the 180 required to truly become a proto-Edgedancer. I fear he would basically need to become someone else entirely. Again, it isn’t impossible, considering where he ends up in WoR, but quite frankly I do not think the character has enough of a focus in any given SA book to truly pull it off. His reduced role in book 3 suggest a lesser story arc than the one he’d need to truly revive his Blade.
For my part, Edgedancer highlighted just how not ready Adolin is to become a Radiant.
This being said, I forgot to say I rather liked the novel. Lift came out more polish and more complete as a character: she grew up which dispelled many of the doubts I had when it came to her.
Am I the only one here who is less than enthusiastic about the later developments in the Lift novella? In trying to analyze my misgivings, I find two sources for such a reaction. For one, why introduce a ‘reformed’ Szeth who is now willing to contradict his new mentor, Nale, and lets Lift escape after Nightblood signals that Lift is not evil? The question of the worthiness of Nale’s prey was never an issue – only their supposed danger. Why, also, should Szeth’s ‘sentient’ sword have more influence over him than he who resurrected him from the dead? If he considers Nale to be insane, why continue with him? Second, I don’t understand Nale’s adamant refusal to admit that the Radiants and Voidbringers had returned until the final confrontation with Lift in the midst of the Everstorm. With whom did Szeth do battle in the skies over the Shattered Plains? Nale, clearly saw the Everstorm if he was there to see where Szeth had fallen. The coming of the Voidbringers is also implicated by his instruction to Szeth to avenge himself on the Shin Shamans who had denied Szeth’s vision of such a return and had turned him into a killer. Of course, Nale is also a bit insane and more than a bit evil judging from his willingness to kill a young thief who had drawn a knife. As someone who is insanely fast, far stronger, and has an Honorblade, he surely didn’t fear for his life. He believed that he had the authority to kill her and did so unhesitatingly and without remorse. Nor was there the rationale that he was thereby attempting to save humanity. Why does his erstwhile victim, Lift, then embrace him when he breaks down after finally accepting the reality of the Desolation advent? Did he now promise to aid the Radiants instead of striving to kill them? As a side issue, how does the Aimian, Arclo (spelling?), know about the surgeon (Kaladin), Liar (Shallan), and Prince (Dalinar) – i.e., Lifts Radiant counterparts in the East? Perhaps these matters will be clarified in the coming SA series, but it is a sticking point for me presently.
The Sleepless know many things…
I think the Aimians have ways of acquiring and sharing knowledge that we haven’t seen yet. Remember, we’d only met one Siah Aimian to this point, and now we’ve met our first Dysian. I’d suggest you read the back cover of TWoK, and see the similarities to what Arclo says here.
Re: Silverlight
Didn’t Khriss call it Silverlight City at one point? Maybe one of y’all with a digital version could check and reply. The hivemind entry does say it is a city, FWIW.
Gepeto @30:
Ym had a spren – which is how he was able to heal people. I mean, squires can draw in Stormlight and heal themeselves, but to heal another you need an actual Nahel bond and use the surge of Progression. And Ym’s spren wasn’t Wyndle, who was already bonded to Lift at that point. Ym’s spren had a childish or female voice, while Wyndle was always male. And also, Ym’s spren actually _hid_ from other people, which is something that Wyndle never bothered to do, because he was normally invisible to everybody but Lift. That, to me, says that Ym’s spren was of a different kind than Wyndle – the one that couldn’t make itself invisible. It also seemed to sense Nalan at a distance and tried to warn Ym, which is not something we have ever seen from Wyndle.
We don’t know anything concrete about Stump’s spren, apart from it looking “like a mirror”, i.e. more like Ym’s spren. Yes, Lift sees Wyndle differently because of her Nightwatcher boon and we know nothing about Stump’s spren’s behavior, so it is a bit open.
You have also mentioned how “giving” both Ym and Stump were, but it is actually an attribute of Herald Paliah, the patron of Truthwatchers. Yes, they also heal, but that’s a secondary effect. Primarily they give to the unfortunates. Ym could also be considered “learned”, that being her other attribute. Stump not so much, but then we have seen that some Radiants (Shallan, Dalinar) embody only one of their patron’s attributes.
Vedelev’s attributes are “loving” and “healing” – Lift mostly expressing the latter one, while Adolin might fit the former one. Also, Lift may not be a fighter yet, but given her performance so far, she’d be one hell of a warrior once trained and grown.
Finally, it is immaterial for the likelyhood of his becoming a Radiant how much PoV time his character will get, as we could see some of his developement through other PoVs connected to him. Also, since a very unorthodox method of sword-whispering will need to be involved if it happens at all.
I think that Adolin tentatively might have the prequisites – some of them at least, but he’ll need to break for it to happen and to be very lucky to boot to ressurect a shardblade. We’ll see.
Kalaxin @31:
I’d say that Szeth would be less likely than ever to blindly obey and authority figure. He wasn’t that grateful to Nalan for his ressurection in the first place and was rightly sceptical of the Herald’s claims in the face of his own experiences. He continued with him, because, presumably, he didn’t know what else to do and had to learn how to handle Nightblood. I imagine that Szeth will strike out on his own after the events of “Edgedancer”.
As to Nalan himself – he was in deep denial / crazy / blindly trusted in the expertise of Ishar, who was either similarly mad, deluded, or intentionally lied to him. Lift embraced him, because she is driven to try to heal hurt people, which he was, among other things. She helped him to overcome his denial and now he’ll stop murdering the Radiants, at least. Whether his help in his warped state is worth having or might do more harm than good is a big question. I imagine that what happens to the ex-Heralds from now on is going to be one of the plot-lines in the future.
@34 Yeah, from Szeth’s point of view, he’s been massively screwed over by authorities who say “this is so.” Now that he’s been giving the option, I don’t see him allowing anyone to dictate his actions again. Nightblood doesn’t tell anyone what to do, he just gives them opportunities.
Ways @33 – In AU, Khriss references “the universities of Silverlight,” “the interaction between societies we enjoy in Silverlight,” and “expeditions sent there from Silverlight.” No city is mentioned.
However, in a Reddit conversation, Brandon said, “It’s a city somewhere in the comsere, with some relevance you will discover eventually.”
So, yes, it’s a city, but we don’t really know where. Apparently at the release party, someone got him to confirm that the constellation map is as viewed from Silverlight.
Isilel @34 – Actually, we don’t know that Wyndle was bonded to Lift prior to Ym’s death; in the official timeline as of WoR release, the date of Ym’s Interlude was “Unknown.”
Re: Nalan, I mostly agree, but would point out this one section:
So I think it’s possible that he’s come out of the madness – but it’s also possible that this apparent clarity is only temporary. We’ll see what happens in Oathbringer, because we’ve been promised to see him there post-realization.
@34 Isilel and @35 noblehunter, I understand your counterargument about Szeth having cause to be wary of authority whose errors were seen to be destructive. However, in WOR, he appeared to accept his place in the Skybreakers headed by Nalan. In the Lift novella he even calls Nalan a god-son. Yet he thwarts Nalan’s purpose by deliberately letting Lift go. If it is to hint at his similar disobedience in the coming SA books, that could be plausible if Nalan continues to be obsessed with execution for minor crimes, even if he abandons his long hatred of KR candidates. However, such a stance is evil – particularly in the face of the Desolation at hand, and should lead a reformed Szeth to abandon him. Perhaps that will happen.
@32 Wetlandernw, it’s a bit hard to imagine how the Aimians who appear to be exclusively in the west can know in detail the hidden happenings in the east. Surely you don’t mean to suggest that they read the back cover of the TWoK book (which I recalled as I read that sentence in AU). Unless you posit that all cremlings are connected to those Aimians and can exchange information. However, the latter mystery will probably be clarified in the Oathbringer.
I’m saying that the back cover of TWoK is clearly from the POV of the Dysian Aimians, so they have been watching for some time now. And, presumably, working together & sharing information with one another. How they do it? Most likely via the Cognitive Realm, is my guess. They don’t have normal human limitations, and we don’t know what Aimian limitations are.
@34: As far as we know, no timeline has ever been settled as to when exactly Wyndle bonded Lift. All we know is he was supposed to bond Ym, but ended up being told to bond Lift. Was he this spren we briefly saw in Ym’s interlude? By all appearances, Ym’s bond was very new, just like Stump: both couldn’t truly consciously use surgebinding, but they could heal slightly, slowly, by contact. We have seen very new proto-Radiants behave this way: for instance Dalinar healing himself and granting himself added strength without being actually aware he is doing it. We have words from the author not all bond results in Radianhood: sometimes a spren starts the process, but if the words are never said, it shatters and the spren goes away. I suspect breaking such a low level bond by dying isn’t as traumatic as breaking a more advanced one, such as one where the spren has acquire conscience.
This being said, the spren which bonded Ym doesn’t need to have been Wyndle for him to have been an Edgedancer (sorry weird syntax, I am kinda lost here). It might have been the counsel planned for Wyndle to bond him, but instead decided he would be better suited for Lift and then sent another Cultivationspren in his place. Hence this other spren might have indeed been female. We do not know.
What we do know though is Wyndle was supposed to bond Ym which implies the counsel considered him a worthy candidate for this order. Could he have also been considered by another order? While not impossible, I find it unlikely. The probability of a given individual to meet the criteria of any order seems small enough, meeting them for two seemed a very rare instance. Besides, it appears too much like a struck of luck for the same old man living in a remote area to have been picked by two different order at about the same time.
For my part, I thus took it the novella confirmed Ym as a proto-Edgedancers and since Stump’s spren share a similar appearance to Ym’s former spren, I took it she was one too. I also felt it fit as all three characters do share many common traits: all come from humble environment, all have been seen helping others without asking anything in return, all have used a disguise of sort to hide their benevolent heart. Besides, based on the little we do know, Ym and Stump seemed more about caring than learning. There wasn’t much learning involved into these characters which has always been the leading argument for Ym to have been a proto-Edgedancer. The cons claimed (namely often myself) he was drawing stories out of children which could be linked to “learning”, but I now feel it is a rather weak argument. Now, I feel it sounds more like “listening to the forgotten” than “learning”.
It is thus we might be in front of not one, but three Edgedancers, all which share several common characteristics. Suddenly, the sample got significantly bigger. Hence, it allows me to revise my initial assumption pertaining to my own theory about Adolin. My new conclusion is thus Adolin has much more work to do to get there than I initially assumed. He also is a much less obvious choice than I thought he was which means it can’t be straight-forward as we might have thought it would be. I am also weighting in the fact Adolin isn’t allowed more than 6 viewpoint chapters per SA book which severely limits the amount of growth he can potentially have, especially when those chapters take place into the shortest part of the story he happens to share with 5 other characters… Third person’s perspective is rather limited and reviving a Shardblade sounds like an internal journey more than an external one. In other words, there is only so much you can tell about a character without a dedicated POV and it forces you to watch the characters from the distorting eyes of another character. It is just not the same: it just isn’t as versatile.
Hence, following the reading of the novella, I am forced to re-consider my own theory making as I find it less probable than I used to. My reasoning for it is Adolin needs much more growth than I assumed he did to get there and the character simply doesn’t have this kind of focus in the story to make it happen.
@31: I think Szeth decided he wouldn’t blindly listened to anyone claiming to behold the greatest law. What good are laws when they can be twisted by crazy men to serve their purposes? Hence, he seeks the real higher law, the one he could obey without fearing doing wrong. I read him as someone looking for guidance and not finding the one offered to him suitable. I actually enjoyed reading a less crazy sounding Szeth.
I so enjoyed my Brandon/Cosmere fix! I guess I’ll be able to hold on until Oathbringer next year.
I know I often play that guy (Yes, I still don’t think the reader should accept Renarin is a Truthwatcher until there is actual evidence beyond Renarin just declaring himself as such), but I want to warn folks again that until we have something demonstrated “on screen” or explained via a reliable narrator/narrative device, we should be wary of accepting as fact unproven information.
There have been numerous references to how Edgedancers were described in the epigraphs of WoR. But those were excerpts taken from the inbook Words of Radiance, which is (by the author’s own admission) based on hearsay, lore and superstition; and is speculated to have been written decades if not centuries after the Recreance, if I’m not mistaken. There are no facts that correctly identify how an Edgedancer acts, how they dress, how they speak or whom they recruit from.
Any speculation about Ishar linked to Nalan’s statements should be highly scrutinized. Nalan is demonstrably insane, and believes that killing Surgebinders will stave off Desolations. For all we know, he could be receiving his direction from a statue of Ishar and the voices in his own head.
Any speculation about Adolin, Adolin reviving his blade, Adolin acquiring a spren and/or Adolin joining any particular KR order is just that, speculation. The reader has no idea of where Adolin’s path will take him/us. Clearly, a great number of readers would like to see Adolin become a Surgebinder and play an important role in the ongoing books. But only Team Sanderson really knows what will happen with Adolin; all other claims to knowing Adolin’s fate are grounded in speculation, desire and possibly obsession.
The order that Ym and Stump belong to has (or have, if you prefer) not been definitively expressed in any published Stormlight novel. I personally believe that Ym and Stump’s spren are the same type, supported by enough in-book description. I also happen to believe they are Edgedancer spren (when you control for the fact that Lift’s perception of Wyndle is affected by her being partially in the Cognitive realm, and realize that Ym, Stump and Lift all seem to excel at caring for those who are less cared for) there are enough similarities to argue they are all Edgedancers. But again, it’s all speculation (fun though it may be).
Anyway, I enjoyed this book a lot! The essays alone provide so much information that is jaw-dropping (my jaw literally dropped when Khriss discussed Ambition, or casually mentioned that Autonomy/Bavadin was female!), and the various stories are all pretty good so far (I’ve read every novella but Emperor’s Soul; it has been built up so much that in my mind I have this irrational fear that I’m going to be let down by it. Of course, I’ll likely read it in the next few days anyway)
(General FYIs: If you just saw the printed version, the e-version has all of the system images in color! If you just saw the e-version, the printed version has a large rendition of the Constellations on the endpapers! )
Speaking of Bavadin, Brandon dropped a major bomb on Reddit yesterday:
Edit: My mind immediately went to Trelagism.
@@@@@ Gepeto, Wetlandernw, Isilel, others participating in the Adolin-as-an-Edgedancer discussion: Forgive me for cutting in with incomplete information, but there is one trait that Adolin does seem to share with Ym, Stump, and Lift. I am rereading Way of Kings, and I just got to Adolin’s introduction, and this line struck me:
“He tried to seem relaxed and confident for Renarin. Generally, that wasn’t difficult. He’d happily spend his entire life dueling, lounging, and courting the occasional pretty girl. Of late, however, life didn’t seem content to let him enjoy its simple pleasures.”
Now, maybe it’s just sleep deprivation and wild speculation, but all the other Edgedancers or potentials also adopt some facade like this. Stump is a grump, Ym is harmless, and Lift is . . . Lift. On the surface, they are very different from
*sigh* Stupid phone. . .
I meant, they all, except possibly Ym, conceal the Edgedancer nature behind some sort of facade. And I’m not even sure if Ym was a potential Edgedancer or Truthwatcher. So, maybe one more point of commonality?
@@@@@ Wetlandernw, unrelated: I, too, love the stories behind constellations just as much as I love learning the facts behind stellar bodies, and if I could ask one thing of Brandon Sanderson I am afraid I would go with the utterly irrelevant “What are the stories behind Mira’s Tear and Taln’s Scar?”
I can totally understand that! If I get a chance, I might even ask about it. If nothing else, I’m going to have to find out if the Tear is on the constellation map. It would be most logical for it to be Sel, Nalthis, Scadrial, or the bright one in the sword… but it would be awesome if it was one of those in the upper left constellation. I think that’s the one Isaac refers to as “the Mourner.”
Actually, I suppose it’s even more likely that Reya’s Tear is another planet in the Rosharan system, now that I think about it. But I like the idea of it being Threnody’s sun.
BTW, does everyone else think that Sixth’s “Ones Above” are space-age Scadrians? We know from Mr. Sanderson that they will have a Space Age. Then again, we know from the story that there are other space-traveling races around at that time.
I’m curious how there’s a Shardpool there with no shard. Remnant/Splinter of Ambition? What will happen to Sixth and Vathi now that they’ve bathed in it, if anything?
As with many others, I’ve very much enjoyed Khriss’ notes, but I’m disappointed that the Nalthis system is missing. I assume the “real world” reason is that there aren’t any short stories set on Nalthis, but I still wish it had been included – I believe it’s the only planet with published works which doesn’t have a Khriss entry.
@43: I valid argument and a very good quote. It is one I have often used in the past when discussing Adolin’s potential as an Edgedancer. One of the hardest obstacle I had to overcome in pushing the Edgedancer theory forward was many readers refused to see him as anything else but a Dustbringer, sometimes a Willshaper, in rare cases, a Stoneward. Everyone focused on the “warrior” aspect of his character which I tried to dispel by highlighting the difference in between who Adolin wants other to see in him (dashing over-confident slightly careless, but certainly dumb Prince) and who Adolin truly is (slightly insecure, afraid to try at being smart and often worried he’d fail at keeping up the appearances Prince). I have often used this quote, perhaps not literally but in spirit, as a prime example.
The one quote which reminded me of Adolin in Edgedancer was when Lift explains why she ran away from Azir. She was afraid if she’d stay, people would start to expect something out of her and she’d loose who she is to meet their expectations. It correlated slightly too well with myself stating Adolin has lost track of himself in trying to fulfill the expectations everyone has put on him, either intentionally or not. Him killing Sadeas merely was, in a way, everything spiralling back to the surface.
I like this quote, but the whole “listening” and the combination of Stump/Ym probably being Edgedancer is what is harming my theory. This and a few other things as well.
Alright folks. Looks like I was, once again, wrong.
Q: Does Lift see Wyndle a different way than another Edgedancer would see their spren?
A: Yes, but only slightly. She sees a longer vine, and slightly more, but it’s not a big difference.
It pretty much trust the whole “Lift sees Wyndle differently than Ym/Stump sees their spren because she is partially into the cognitive realm” theory down the sewer. Mew.
Still, I am waiting a stronger confirmation. I have to say, none of it makes sense to me. It doesn’t make sense to me Wyndle was to bond Ym, but Ym ended up a Truthwatcher. I hope Brandon will come up with a good explanation, because I have to say I am completely lost as to why he would have Wyndle say he was to bond Ym if Ym, in the end, bonded a Truthwatcher spren. What were the odds of that happening? They seem too small for me take it in fitfully.
I really thought both Ym/Stump were better fitted for Edgedancers than Truthwatchers… They fitted with Lift, it all made sense.
So huh, still waiting for more details. There are a lot of signings taking place: hopefully better answers will be obtained.
I’m still waiting for more solid answers. Either I pry one out of him tomorrow, or I’m stuck waiting for a description of Glys.
Got it.
4. Do Ym, Stump belong to Edgedancer? Will we see Stump again in the future?
A. Ym is not an Edgedancer. You will see Stump in the future novels though you may not see Tashikki much again.
Definite proof I was completely wrong. Damn. Honestly, I was 99% sure I was right. It still doesn’t make sense though… Well, we know it is possible for one individual to bond sprens from two different orders: we have a WoB on this, but truly I find the idea Ym was considered suitable for two orders really hard to believe. I have an even harder time to believe sprens from two different orders would turn around the same isolated old man.
While it has been confirmed, I am still waiting for an explanation to unravel it all: perhaps in a future signing someone will ask Brandon to expand on the subject or it may come up again in the books. I also have a very hard time seeing Stump as a Truthwatcher… though all things considered I have a hard time seeing her as a Radiant, so huh maybe it is just me.
So no need to ask Alice. As for Glys appearance, he RAFOed that one in the past. Theories going around are Glys isn’t exactly what hew claims to be. Though if you ask again and he answers, then it will settle the whole “Renarin is not really a Truthwatcher» debate to rest.
I am also still waiting to understand why Brandon made such a big mystery over Ym’s order. That could be an interesting question: “Why the mystery?”.
Gepeto @51. I do not think it is that hard to understand why more than one type of spren would consider bonding the same person. All Knights Radiants start with the same general type of characteristics. Not everybody can be KR material. I am sure there are certain types of people who all of 10 different types of spren who utilize the Nahel Bond would never consider bonding. As to all other potential candidates, they may share the same general characteristics. All KRs take the same First Oath. It the subsequent Oaths (or whatever else the Lightweavers do/say) that are different. Remember that each Order has shares one surge with a different Order and another surge with a third Order. Both Truthwatchers and Edgedancers have the surge of regeneration. It is possible that a possible KR candidate would have the need/desire of healing as part of his/her personality traits.
I apologize for not articulating my above thoughts clearly. I can think my reasoning in this case far better than I can express them in writing. Hopefully, somebody can state what I am trying to say more eloquently.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Gepeto@51 – Wow, that is a rather strong WoB (Where is it from? SF signing? Fort Collins?). I also thought Ym bonded with an Edgedancer spren. It seems rather convincing, but since Brandon has shown in the past to be very specific with his word choice when answering questions, there are a few possible (although very weak and probably unlikely) outs.
“Ym is not an Edgedancer” has at least two areas that allow for “hairsplitting” type of challenges, for someone who wishes to examine exactly what Brandon said: 1) tense of the verb, (“is,” not “was”); and 2)when exactly Brandon would define a proto-radiant of the Edgedancer order as an “Edgedancer.” For 1), Ym is dead, and is no more presently an Edgedancer than Gavilar is presently king of Alethkar. For 2), it is unclear how many oaths Ym had said, and also unclear where exactly Brandon establishes a threshold for a Surgebinder or proto-Surgebinder to actually be a member of a particular order (in other words, “Ym would not be considered an Edgedancer yet, but if he had said one more oath…”)
Admittedly, these are super nitpicky and it’s likely that Brandon was not attempting to be duplicitous in anyway. It’s also possible that the quote you give is a paraphrase and Brandon’s exact words were along the lines of “Ym would not have belonged to the Edgedancer Order.” (Seriously, was this a direct quote that was recorded or just based off someone’s memory?)
Like I said, it’s reaching, nitpicky, splitting hairs, wishing upon a star or whatever phrase for “weak and not likely” that you want to use. I would still encourage Alice and others to ask specific, clarifying questions about Ym, Stump etc (also, Brandon very clearly did not answer whether Stump was/not an Edgedancer and allowed the listener to form their own conclusions, which always has me scrutinize exactly what was said, and how).
Anyway, I appreciate the WoB.
@53: It is from the SF signing. I saw it pop this morning on Reddit, but it was initially posted onto the 17th Shard. Considering the fact people have been arguing about Ym’s order, I am not surprised several people took a dip and asked about it.
While I cannot disagree with the idea we might not be interpreting the WoB as intended, it does seem rather… straight-forward… I agree he didn’t flat out say Ym was a Truthwatcher, but the fact he barred him from the Edgedancer seems to very strongly imply he was one.
I guess we could endlessly split the hair in four, but really it seems as if we are looking for bugs. Though, I wouldn’t mind having more information. There has to be a reason why Brandon refused to answer questions with respect to Ym’s order in the past. Why? Why keep it a secret?
Many theories have sprouted from Brandon’s silence…
People have debated as to whether or not Renarin was a Truthwatcher, though arguably knowing Ym was one changes nothing to those discussions. It however only becomes relevant if we knew what Glys looked like and figure out something is wrong if he ends up not looking like Ym’s spren… Unfortunately, Brandon has RAFOed most questions related to Glys. Many took it the mystery must thus be something else.
People have then debated as to whether or not Nale was solely hunting Edgedancers. If true, then the author might have had a good reason to keep this information secret. It however doesn’t appear to be the case, either way, so this one can really go down the sewer.
In any advent, the mystery surrounding Ym is bizarre. It might be the hair splitting is the right approach: perhaps Ym was not a Radiant at all…. though this does seem improbable.
To answer to @52, what bugs with the whole “Ym was initially supposed to bond Wyndle but instead bonded a Truthwatcher spren” is the idea one individual could be “so lucky” as to be harvested by two orders. While I do agree a given individual might be fitting for two distinct orders, I have a hard time believing it is plausible for them to focus on one single individual evolving so far from the main world events. It seems like such a struck of pure luck and complete happenstance, it is hard to reconcile with everything else. It is thus I do hope for future explanations.
It also makes me wonder about Stump… She didn’t seem particularly “learned” nor inclined towards it. It might have happened off screen, but I feel we weren’t given enough incentive to truly buy it. I can buy Renarin, even if we were given little. I can buy Ym, even if it is tedious, because of the stories he asked from the children. It is however a weak argument. Well, I find it weak, YMMV.
So huh, I’ll stay posted for more details. Hopefully someone can ask for more.
Having read Edgedancer, I declare Lift the Sassmaster of Western Roshar, canonically trident-carrying honorary member of House Manderly, lost child of the Speckled Folk, and The Best Ever.
Where in the text do we learn that she can see into Shadesmar? And was that, and the resulting ability to metabolize food into Stormlight, the Nightwatcher’s “boon” as the Stormlight Archive Wiki says? Sounds like it wasn’t what she asked for. And getting your magic from food is a decidedly mixed blessing for a food-insecure person like Lift, even if it makes her glorious for us to read about.
@54 Gepeto: I think you may be getting a bit hung up on this “Wyndle was supposed to bond to Ym” thing and I think you may have misinterpreted what Wyndle was saying. At no point does he say he was supposed to bond to Ym, just that they were considering bonding him. The quote is: “Did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you? A very kindly man who took care of children. I could have lived quietly, helping him, making shoes. I could have done an entire display of shoes!”
Now I may be interpreting this wrong, but it is definitely a valid interpretation that what he meant by this was that they investigated Ym as a possible future Edgedancer and then for whatever reason ruled him out and didn’t bond him and in the end he ended up getting bonded most likely by a truthwatcher spren, rather than a cultivation spren. This is obviously supported by the WoB above.
I think it’s definitely too far to go from the Cultivation spren considering bonding Ym, which we know as a fact, to saying that he was supposed to bond Ym, which is interpretation only.
I think also that @52 AndrewHB was onto something above, that there would be certain overlaps between possible Knights Radiant and I think this is extra likely with orders which are closer to each other and overlap by sharing a surge. What I would posit is that the Cultivation spren investigated Ym and determined that while he was a decent fit he didn’t quite suit the Edgedancers and was (probably) more suited towards the Truthwatchers.
There is no reason why different kinds of spren can’t work together in finding candidates for bonding. We don’t really know how spren find the people they want to bond. Maybe a group of different kinds of spren sent out scouts to look for suitable humans. The Cultivation spren scouts might have found Ym and decided that he was better suited for bonding the Truthwatcher spren they were working with.
@56: Yeah… Maybe. I guess I merely had my head wrapped around different conclusions. Wyndle talked as if Ym had been a sure deal: my interpretation truly was it fail because Ym untimely died or perhaps another Cultivationspren was sent in his place.
@57: I like this explanation. Thank you. This makes more sense when phrased this way. Still, I am left wondering, does anyone see the rational for the Stump to be a Radiant? Truthwatchers are supposed to be learned and giving, the giving part, I can get, but the learned one?
It also does not explain why Brandon refused to tell us straightaway Ym was a Truthwatcher and I would like to point, he said he wasn’t an Edgedancer… He didn’t say “Ym was a Truthwatcher”. He purposefully phrased it in a way to give us room to wiggle around it, so while it is a pretty strong confirmation, it isn’t a full blown admission.
Does this have to do with Renarin? Obviously, it can’t be about the sprens as we have no idea what Glys looks like, but what if it is about the visions? Ym, Stump neither seems to have them… I mean, surely they would have mentioned them, in a way or another. If having visions of potential futures is a Truthwatcher’s power, then surely other Truthwatchers would have gotten similar doomed visions as Renarin… and surely it would have come up within their POV/part.
Could this be the secret Brandon is lip tight about? Visions isn’t something specific to the Truthwatchers: it is something else. While I do not doubt Renarin is a Radiant, there may be something else going on with him which has noting to do with surgebinding. Just as Dalinar was the unwilling recipient of visions from the past, Renarin might have been chosen for dramatic visions of the future. Him being Dalinar’s son probably played a role in him being chosen: it was not arbitrary.
Gepeto @@@@@ 58 – Just remember this – Nothing is written in stone except the 10 commandments. :-)
Brandon is not being difficult. He is not giving answers so that he will have wiggle room as you say. My guess is that he is not ready to give you or anyone else an answer.
I understand that you want confirmation. But, you won’t get it until the story is finished. Or perhaps not even then. I guess what I’m saying is that there really is no reason to be frustrated. :-) Quite frankly, I’m really glad that Brandon answers our questions.
Patience is not my strongest suit, but I was also taught that “good things come to those who wait.” :-)
I did it! Stayed off the spoilers page until I was done and saved Edgedancer for last. All the Scadrial and First of the Sun stories were new to me. I won’t talk too much about them since I’m sure there are better forums, except to say that I love Sixth of the Dusk. Just beautifully crafted. I don’t think Patji’s Eye officially counts as a shardpool, but it does seem highly likely it’s the perpendicularity on First. Weird then that Silverlight thinks it’s so dangerous to visit, since at least for Khriss’ focus on arcana, you wouldn’t have to leave the safety of the pool. Obviously leaving the pool would pose some safety concerns…
Whoa, failed at not talking too much about that one. Still fanboying. I personally hope Adolin doesn’t become a KR. I wouldn’t want every viewpoint character to be a magic user. Adolin can be a great character with flaws and no magic…except you know, the sword and armor… I like Dox and Steris as non-magic using characters among some serious powerhouses. Khriss’ search for knowledge only instead of trying to acquire the magic as Hoid seems to be doing is great reading.
Fully on board team ShardTrident.
But listen, the burning question that no one has asked yet…do I put Arcanum Unbounded alphabetically – to the left of Elantris on the shelf, or to the right of WoR, as it contains SA 2.5? Stop arguing over what order some dead cobbler might belong in and focus on what’s important!
@59: It isn’t about wanting confirmation. I am perfectly fine waiting for this one to play out. It merely about trying to figure out why. And why might give us clues about other things, hence I am wondering. The day I will stop wondering is the day I will stop bothering to post anything with respect to SA. In the meantime, I will wonder about things. The whole Ym deal happens to be something I had truly wondered about.
I went to the New Jersey signing today (December 3). Brandon read a short flashback scene from Oathbringer. Brandon spoke for a while, took some Q&A, read the scene from Oathbreaker and signed books. The event started shortly after 4 pm EST. Brandon started signing books about 5:15 pm. By the time a left a 7 pm EST, there was still a long line of people getting books signed. As occurred in prior Brandon signings I was at, people asked multiple questions.
I asked several questions. All answers are paraphrases (not exact quotes)
1) Q: Is Niccolo Machiavelli’s political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants’ First Oath?
A. No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli’s theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. I asked this question during the open Q&A. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.
Q. As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.
A. Yes.
2) Q. Is the rapier a weapon that people who do not have a Shardbalde use on Roshar?
A. Brandon asked why I asked this question. I answered that at the end of WoR, Jasnah created a Sharblade rapier. It was a weapon I do not recall any other person using in WoK or WoR. Brandon then said he would not answer. I asked if that would deserve a RAFO. He smiled and gave me a RAFO.
3) Q. I asked if in the future, he would have Lift use a Trident as her main Shard weapon.
A. Yes. The reader should not be surprised if Lift uses a trident as a Shard weapon (a ShardTrident).
After Brandon signed my books and I asked my questions, I spoke to WinespringBrother. He is a a sometime poster on Tor and very active on Theoryland. I gave him some additional questions that he could ask if there was time (or somebody in the future could ask. These questions are:
a) Is the gestation period for a human on Roshar the same as it would be for a human on Earth, taking into account that time on Earth is a different ratio than on Roshar? For example, a 17 year old on Roshar would be a few years older on Roshar. My thought was to determine if a human on Earch has the same physiology as does a human on Roshar.
b) Is there a certain distance from where a Knight Radiant is and where his/her spren is which would prohibit the Knight Radiant from summoning his/her spren Shard weapon?
c) As part of Brandon’s discussion at the beginning of the book signing, Brandon talked about the concept of the Talos Principle in Philosophy. I wanted to ask (but totally forgot) what is the talos of a stick?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Does anybody know if there is a full transcript of the questions asked during the Arcanum Unbounded book signing? If so, where?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
17th Shard usually manages to collect all the signing reports, I think. At least, they have a LOT of those; there’s usually a sharder recording and then transcribing later.
One of my friends was last in line at today’s signing, and recorded the whole thing, so I’m sure there will be a transcript before too long. He’s pretty compulsive that way. :)
It is definitely settled. No more wiggling around it. Next question would be, why did you RAFO previous questions?
Ym is confirmed to not be an Edgedancer. Does that mean that he would have become a Truthwatcher? Yes.
Wanna hear something that really blew my mind?
Remember that “ugly lizard-crab-thing” from the WoR epilogue? Guess what it is?
.
.
.
.
Yeah. It’s (part of) a Dysian.
Naturally.
ETA: Should have added, this is from the Chicago signing, after they got kicked out of the library and had to stand around in 28-degree (F) weather to talk any longer. My poor Texas-adjusted friend Megalodon shivered through 45 minutes of this weather to bring the news. :) I’m sure it will be verbatim on 17th shard before long.
Did Hoid recognize that the cremlin was part of a Dysian, and is that why he was talking to it? Seems so.
Finally got to read this. Was waiting on it for my birthday.
Wyndle reminds me so much of C3-P0. The whole ending of Edgedancer gave me all the feels, from hugging Nalan to the Shardfork (that’s totally going to be a meme, which should make Wyndle proud) to healing the refugees. I’m honestly quite impressed with everyone’s character growth here.
Lift remains one of my favorite characters along with Jasnah and Shallan.
@24 & 25 – Late to the party but just wanted to add that Adolin may not have a choice about giving everything away. He did kill Sadeas. Perhaps we will see that he confesses and is forced out of his family/station for his crime, and he starts to rebuild himself as an Edgedancer. Not sure if anyone else has postulated this but wanted to bring it up to the group.