Welcome to Part 6 of the Song of Ice and Fire thread, in conjunction with Leigh Butler’s fabulous Read of Ice and Fire. (The first, second, third, fourth, and fifth threads are now massive, but you can read through them at your leisure.) Please join us below for our ongoing, spoiler-filled dissection of George R. R. Martin’s bloody fantasy epic.
(Please note that while the forums are closed for comments, you can still access them here if you’d like to read up on previous conversations in the the thread.)
Spoilers for the entire series ahead, naturally.
She missed Gregor. Oh well.
YAY A new thread the other one was getting long!
If you missed it go read it, Tabby dropped one hell of a joke as we departed!
Also, what happened when someone came and pooped in the thread this time?
I am still waiting for her to pick up on the fact that none of the best characters are even in this book :-(
@3, Speak for yourself, Brienne is THE best.
Given how much Leigh mused on the heavy armor and what it could mean, and that last chapter she even had thoughts of possibly Gregor could be back and wearing his brother’s helm, I was a bit surprised (even disappointed) that she didn’t make that connection. The thing is, it was a throwaway reference to Qyburn before we knew he was a central character to the story (it was in an Arya chapter way back in ACOK), when we learned that he is rumored to dabble in necromancy. So it’s understandable to miss that, but the whole armor too heavy for a mortal man seems like a big neon sign pointing to undead Gregor. That was definitely my first thought on my initial read, and my only question was: whose head was sent to Dorne? (Now I think it was probably an unfortunate dwarf, but not the sparrow dwarf, since Qyburn already said he had prepared the head for Cersei when the sparrow head was brought to her).
Oh, she’s so close!!
(That is, if Ser Zombie is who everyone thinks he is … )
@5, I’m pretty sure it’s Gregor’s head. It’s grotesquely huge, which wouldn’t make sense if it were a dwarf.
@7 Aeryl- I’m torn about the head. Part of me thinks Gregor is headless, and his head was sent to Dorne (which would explain Bran’s vision of a huge shadowy figure with only darkness inside the helm) but part of me thinks that even the undead need eyes to be able to fight effectively. One of the classic distinguishing traits of dwarfism is an overly large head (as oppsed to midgets, a term no longer used, whose heads were proportional), so it would be totally possible to pass one off as Gregor’s head. Plus, Cersei got delivered a plethora of dwarf heads after promising a lordship for Tyrion’s.
@2 – someone hinted strongly at Gregor.
@3 – Is the Table of Contents a spoiler?
(I actually don’t have the book any more and forgot if there is a list of chapters in the front)
@10, I don’t think so.
@8, Wizard did it, don’t need eyes. But Bran’s vision could just indicate that there isn’t sentience there as well. But I just like the idea of a headless automaton
Oh, we are on part 6! Didn’t even realize that until it didn’t take forever to scroll down.
What a chapter to start it on! Oy!
@2, It was a rather spoilerish speculation post. But one I couldn’t quite tell if the person was: 1) truly speculating, 2) trying to be clever and were already in the know, or 3) just being a spoiler.
Guess someone flagged it, I know I almost did.
@13 Agreed. At first glance I was like “spoiler!” but as I read it, I thought it might be someone who was just speculating… I didn’t think it was someone trying to be a spoiler, but you never know….
Don’t they usually just white out the text though in that case?
I flagged, but somebody had already beaten me to it, and deleted it.
The spoilery part could have been whited out, but other than being a spoiler, the post didn’t make any other valuable contribution to the discussion, so it would have been pretty pointless.
I’m really looking forward to this week’s chapter – we get to see a non-dysfunctional Lannister family reunion. Genna and Daven Lannister are kind of awesome, in that if they had any other last name, they’d fit right in with any of the protagonists’ camps. Whatever evils Cersei and Joffrey had committed (and they had many), most of the nobles fighting in the damned war had nothing to do with it (to say nothing of the smallfolk), and were only serving their liege lords as best they could. Stannis has a great monologue in COK about divided loyalties and the messes it creates – I’ll have to look it up in time for the post tomorrow.
There’s a lot of exposition, so I assume it’ll be a single chapter this week, but I love/hate Arya’s next chapter. I love all of Arya’s chapters, but that was a horrendous way to end her part in FFC. I really hope FFC/DWD gets re-edited at some point, because her DWD chapters really belong in FFC to close her arc.
@17 IG: Arya’s arc is just her descent into full FM mode. I’m okay with it as is, I just want more Arya because I love her chapters and we get so little of her. I want more of her in AFFC, I wanted more of her in ADWD, and the Mercy chapter is my favorite released WOW chapter so far. (Then again, the only character I like more is Tyrion, and his chapters aren’t as good in ADWD as they once were, mostly because he’s just so beaten down emotionally).
Regarding the other Lannisters in the next chapter, Genna is awesome, Daven is pretty good too but I’m not sure if Leigh will agree. She’s still predisposed to dislike Lannisters on principle- it took her a really long time to recognize Kevan’s awesomeness. And she may just roll her eyes at Genna’s admiration for Tywin.
@18 – True, but it’s hardly an unqualified endorsement of Tywin. Genna explicitly says that while she loved him, she didn’t always love what he did or the man that he became.
More importantly, Genna says this in the context of calling Tywin a fool for his inability to see that Tyrion was always the smartest and most dangerous of the Lannisters. He was the most like Tywin, and she’s smart enough to be worried about that.
Oh, but I really can’t wait for Leigh’s reaction to the next Arya chapter.
Which means it won’t be today, of course.
I always hope that Discworld’s Death someday makes an appearance before the Faceless Men. Because it would be awesome.
Tabby – ha! She got there.
@20: happy Un-birthday! Two chapters!
@21, IG: But I think the 7 Kingdoms would send him running. “Too crazy” as he looks over his shoulder going to the next location.
Of course this would be after his holiday, not before. Before his holiday, he might have enjoyed GRRM’s world.
Leigh made a good catch with Saan’s possible location. I never noticed it, but then I’ve only read ADWD twice.
She didn’t notice (or talk about, anyway) the maddening basilisk-blood poison which Jaqen undoubtedly used on Weese’s dog, as Arya immediately spotted. Though I puzzle over how he kept it from being confiscated when he was arrested. I like to imagine someone dosing killing Ramsay by dosing his dogs with the stuff.
@Tabbyfl55 & RobMRobM
The ending of Arya’s chapter is when I really started to hate Martin’s cliffhangers and just disbelieve any of them.
“Then the knife flashed towards Arya’s face!”-End
Begin-“Just kidding. It was to cut her hair. LOL”
“The axe descended on her head with a thud!”-End
Begin-“PSYCHE! It was the flat of the axe and just knocked her out.”
“Arya wakes up BLIND!”-End
Begin-“It was just a reversible potion. HAHAHA Gotcha again you stupid readers.”
“Jon feels several knives stabbing into him before it all goes dark and cold”-End
Me: “I don’t believe you anymore Martin. You’ve cried wolf way too many times for any of your cliffhangers to have any impact whatsoever.”
@25 – Bran and Rickon in COK was the tipping point for me. Since then, I’ve correctly called out every supposed character “death” immediately (though we’ll have to wait to confirm Stannis/Mance/Jon).
Ok first of all, YEAH, because I SAID it, DUH… it’s like my umbrella. I always take my umbrella to lunch with me now, because if I bring it, it won’t rain, but if I don’t bring it, it will rain. And it’s better to have an umbrella and no rain, trust me. Point is, the universe likes playing these little jokes on me for some reason. So I post “Leigh won’t get to Arya today”, because if she doesn’t then I get to be right, but if she does, then I get Arya. Either way I win. Try being me for a week and you’ll understand, maybe.
Weese’s dog, Weese’s dog…. I feel like I should remember something about that, but I just can’t.
But yeah, when I first read it, I knew Arya wouldn’t be permanently blind, but I was still bummed that her chapters would probably be a lot more talky, and less awesome until she got her sight back.
However, I was hoping Leigh might be a little more gullible. Drat.
@27 Tabby- Leigh was gullible when she thought there would be more Arya chapters to see her get her sight back. Not for a while (the rest if this book, a D+E story, and half of ADWD before we see Arya again).
@27: Weese was in charge of the kitchens at Harrenhal while Arya was a prisoner there, and treated the people working for him terribly. Arya gave his name to Jaqen H’ghar, who used that basilisk poison to make Weese’s dog tear out his throat.
@26: I believe that whether Stannis survived or died after aDwD has already been revealed in one of the spoiler tWoW chapters that has been released by GRMM.
@30
Not really, the chronology of the chapters is not that straightforward.
Anyway, I don’t believe Stannis or Jon are dead.
Mance, maybe…
@30 unless it is one of those over lapping timeline chapters that he tends to do at beginning of books so actually set before the end of ADWD. He made a note at the beginning of ASOS that the first few chapters occur same time as end of ACOK. Could be the same deal.
Mance was never reported dead, Ramsay’s letter sais that Mance is a captive (“i am keeping him in a cage outside, but i gave him a cloak made of his spearwives skins to keep him warm”).
Jon’s human body is dead, i don’t think anyone can survive such wounds (4 daggers, 1 of them “buried between the shoulder blades”). His conciousness is alive though, since nothing bad happened to Ghost as of ADWD’s end (skinchanger’s “second life”). Whether or not his human body will be resurrected remains to be seen. Like most i am betting that it will be.
What happened to Stannis is unclear. He might really be dead or Ramsay could just think that he is dead, or Ramsay could lie, etc. I agree that most likely he is alive though, but i am not really sure.
@33 – Does Ramsay’s letter actually use the term “spearwives?” Because that, to me, is a red flag that the whole thing is a fake. How the hell does Ramsay know that term?
Well he’s had Theon for a while, I would think he could have learned at least that much about the ironborn by now.
And while I’m posting, I’ve got a question. How did “Stormborn” get in Dany’s name? Is it really part of her name, or just a title like “Kingslayer”?
Ramsay’s letter uses the term “whore” or some other insult. It does sound like Ramsay is the author (though of course it could be someone imitating his style).
Anything is possible, but I think the theory that someone else wrote the letter is too complicated. It is not easy to fake Ramsay’s letter, you need to have access to the seal and to the ravens. And it does look like Mance and the spearwives are in trouble since some of them are caught during Theon and Jeyne escape. So I think the Mance part of the letter is true.
The part about Stannis could easily be untrue though. At least past events teach us that when an important character is reported dead, but we don’t see his death on screen, then he is most likely alive.
Dany is called Stormborn because she was born during a terrible storm at Dragonstone.
I think that:
1. Jon is only Mostly Dead. Mostly dead still means partly alive.
2. Stannis routed Ramsay through some trickery involving the ice, and the Manderly reinforcements.
3. Ramsay’s letter is his own bit of trickery in order to salvage the day despite having been militarily defeated.
This is pure speculation, but I think the battle goes as follows:
1. Davos retrieves Rickon off-camera, and re-connected with Stannis with the Manderly heavy cavalry.
2. The Freys were probably the first to get slaughtered, seeing as how they were pretty much politically and tactically isolated. I think Stannis then used the now-allied Karstarks to send misinformation back to the Boltons – saying the Freys and Manderlys had Stannis pinned, but needed reinforcements.
3. The Bolton forces then charged into a pre-prepared ambush over the frozen lake, with the bulk getting trapped and slaughtered (either by sinking into the lake itself, or getting picked off with arrows while they’re slippiung and stumbling over the ice).
@35 Tabby- Danny was born during a great storm that sank the Targaryan fleet, so she is known as Stormborn, but it’s not offically part of her name (it’s like “the unburnt” and “mother of dragons”).
@37 – Maybe HBO will make Billy Crystal a Maester next season to deliver the mostly dead prognosis.
Further speculation: I think the weak point of The Twins is the bridge. I think the two towers have their defenses pointed outwards towards either bank of the river, but lack strong points between them. Under normal circumstances, it’s not vulnerable to attack, but if the Trident freezes over, Stannis (or Dany, or Littlefinger) attacks via the river itself.
@40 That’s an interesting theory. It’s true that the Twins are important because they are the sole means of crossing the river between the Riverlands and the North, but there are ways to bypass them (you can go down the kingsroad, for example, to get between the North and the Crownlands, or through the Riverlands to get from KL to the Riverlands and Westlands, or go West around the souce of the Trident, though that takes a while). So it’s not necessary for the Trident to freeze over for plot advancement, but it is a possibility. I’m personally hoping for the death of every single Frey via a combined onslaught of the BWB, Stannis, and Dany (with possible contributions by the Vale, Riverlands, Arya, Dragons, the High Septon, Cersei, etc….)
@41 – Team Arya/Nymeria to handle the Freys. That is all.
@42 I certainly hope they contribute. The question is, who kills Walder after every single one of his descendants is dead? (I really want it to happen that way).
@42: No. Maybe the last two Freys.
But it would be so much better if the Freys started turning on each other before the old man dies so that he can see his little genetic empire fall apart before he kicks the bucket.
Remember, the Gods can forgive you for cannibalism, but they cannot forgive killing a guest. At least, that is what the Rat King taught me. :-)
Which considering the whole winter that last for years thing, it’s a good thing that cannibalism is not condemned by the Old Gods, and the Seven have very little to say on the matter.
I think the Freys themselves will kill more Freys than the rest of Westeros combined. That said, the Twins are vulnerable because:
1. The castle itself is undermanned. The Freys sent a sizeable portion of their forces north to Winterfell for Ramsay’s wedding, and Jaime further depletes them by reinforcing Riverrun.
2. The bridge was never built as a defensive strongpoint – so there are no merlons, murderholes, or arrow slits along the sides. Most likely, to save weight along the entire length of the span, it’s not even a solid wall, but railing. Best case scenario is stonework railing with big holes on the side; more likely it’s a three-foot wooden fence with the occasional stone posts.
3. The bridge itself is far lower than the tower walls. It’s an unreinforced stonework bridge with a very long span – I can’t imagine it being more than 20 feet above the water line.
4. It’s not hard for the attackers to build a makeshift ‘road’ along the ice to secure their footing. Stannis has an army of thousands – they just need to secure some wooden planks into the ice, and maybe cover it with wood chips or gravel.
5. Instead of defending a single, squat defensive fortification, troops will necessarily be spread out along a huge perimeter spanning both towers, and both sides of a very long bridge. Instead of defending a single, squat structure, the line is “barbell” shaped. The attackers can reinforce a breech much faster than the defenders.
6. Command and control is likely to be in one of the two towers – meaning half of the defenders can be cut off right in the opening minutes.
Actually, forget the barbell-shaped perimeter I mentioned above. I just sketched out a battle plan, and realized the Frey defenses looks like a double-headed phallus.
‘Twin Towers of Frey’ indeed.
I love this thread, fantasizing about the end of the Freys is so much fun!
“double headed phallus” in relation to the Freys is all win, as far as I’m concerned. Dicks though and though.
@46: you win today.
Wish we could share the joke with Leigh.
And we get to enjoy Frey killing Frey next Jamie POV, right?
Ok, I should reallybe working right now, but…
What is the disposition of Frey forces right now? At the onset of war, they had 4,300 soldiers (4,000 went with Robb, and 300 were left to defend the Twins). They’ve presumably suffered losses during the war, and desertion is a huge issue for them in large part due to the BWB.
How many did they send North to Winterfell? I want to say 1,500 men, but I’m pretty sure I’m pulling that number out of nowhere. How many are guarding Riverrun now? Jaime specifically calls for more reinforcements being sent there. I also have to imagine the BWB is forcing them to devote significant resources to guarding any Freys travelling the countryside. With the war winding down and the smallfolk trying to reap one last harvest, I also imagine them drawing down their forces. And really, I can’t imagine that they would leave a larger garrison now than they did at the start of the war – so maybe 300?
If Stannis wins the battle for Winterfell and marches south (as I believe he does), the Freys are toast.
ETA: @49 – yeah, it’s pretty funny here, but I’m in the office and just sketched… that… on a notepad at my desk. Suffice to say, I got rid of it right quick.
@49 Braid_Tug- If you’re referring to when Ryman Frey is killed returning to the Twins, it’s in the last Jaime chapter (2 from now), and it was almost certainly done by Lady Stoneheart and the BWB (which is an AWESOME name for a band). because Tom-o-Sevens is with the Frey camp at Riverrun and is almost certainly relaying info to the BWB. The next Jaime chapter is when he sends Ryman back to the twins, but there is no Frey-on-Frey action in either chapter, just some erroneously suspected (which may lead to Frey infighting down the road…)
I’ll take “Walder dies of natural causes after directly witnessing his last two heirs murder one another in front of his death-bed.” in the natural justice pool.
Regarding Summers Islanders that aren’t such nice chaps, I guess we have to wait until Leigh gets to Moqorro. The guy might have good intentions with Daenerys, but he creeps me out and giving good advice to Victarion (like, how to use the Dragon Horn properly) is not a good thing in my opinion.
@@@@@ 53,
There is some idea that goes around that he is not a man from the summer islands, but someone with skin “burned and charred black”.
Does anyone think Leigh actually enjoys these stories anymore? She doesn’t seem to really care about any of the overarching plot points of the story (i.e. prince that was promised), just the specific hot button issues she finds in a given chapter. This isn’t a criticism of her, different people like different things, and ASoIaF can certainly be off putting.
I’m just catching up so this may have been discussed (I think I’ve seen mention here and there), and I did see a lot of whining in various comments about her personal political views, so maybe that diminished her enthusiasm too.
Regarding Jon Snow’s possible resurrection, I’m hoping it will be a true resurrection due to his “dragon blood” as a Targaryen or even as Azor Ahai and not as a zombified Jon.
Sorry, having taken a cursory glance at the previous thread I see this (re my comment @55) has indeed been brought up.
Carry on.
@55, I myself didn’t catch the info on that stuff my first read through either, as I too was engaged in the “atrocity of the chapter” stuff going on.
But I still enjoyed the hell out of these books.
I’m going to add my own topic of discussion to this thread.
Benjen Stark is not the only missing man that is occasionally mentioned through the series. What do you think happened to Tyrek Lannister? I think Varys keeps him stored somewhere for some purpose.
That is what Jaime thinks about him at some point. Tyrek was king Robert’s squire together with Lancel and likely witnessed Lancel changing Robert’s wineskin and thus may be used to accuse or blackmail Cercei (who gave orders to Lancel). Perhaps Varys (or whoever is keeping Tyrek) will produce him for the upcoming trial. I don’t think it will be very important for the plot though, since there is enough evidence against Cercei even without another witness, and she will choose trial by combat anyway.
Tyrek has value beyond just being a witness to anything Robert has, he is also something like seventh or eighth in line to inherit the Rock. At the same time he is also fairly removed from the current politics of house Lannister that he is essentially a clean slate. If Varys is as big on the idea on the proper education for a ruler then he might have designs for Tryek, or an FTyrek.
@55 – I agree. The slow pace she reads at is probably a drag, but she seems more interested in ancillary stuff like race and gender than the actual plot.
A country bumpkin from the far north’s first impression of a black sailing family is far less interesting than the other things in this chapter.
I think a big part of it is that the books themselves are dragging quite a bit at this point. Between them, FFC/DWD is about 400 pages too long. Yes, SOS was the end of Act I and we needed to reset the stage, but we didn’t need to spend 1,100 pages doing that.
Leigh commented last week that Jaime’s chapter was largely a rehash of stuff we already learned elsewhere; that’s actually a recurring theme in these books. Part of it was having to suddenly fill-in the five-year gap, part of it was the infamous Meereenese knot, but I also think GRRM fell a little too much in love with his worldbuilding. I just feel like sometime after SOS, GRRM became less willing to “kill his darllings”.
Don’t forget much of Jaime’s chapters were written when AFFC and ADWD were still integrated with one another, so Jaime’s chapter probably initally came after a lot more Dany and Tyrion and Barristan stuff, so it was needed as a refresher, but after the split, not so much
@55, 62, I guess we wouldn’t follow this re-read if it was a dry summary or gushing admiration. It is a critial re-read.
That being said, who wondered about Raff the Sweetling in the host of our fac0rite kingslayer? And what does it say that he employs people like him? Was his kindness to Pia just a momentary lapse?
I’m not as convinced Leigh isn’t liking the book(s) as some people seem to be. But either way, we’re coming up on a bunch of chapters now that are more eventful. We’ll get Cersei’s prophecy, Brienne at the crossroads, Arianne and Doran’s heart-to-heart, Jaime at Riverrun, torture of the Blue Bard, Brienne meeting Lady Stoneheart, Cersei’s arrest, winter finally coming, and Sam’s arrival at Oldtown. There will be something in pretty much every chapter to focus on, and most of it will be less theme-y than recent chapters. (Except the Cersei/Faith stuff, I assume. That should be an interesting read.)
Ok, just pretend I read the whole of that last thread (SPOILER ALERT- I didn’t, finish, I mean. I did give it a good go!)
Hopefully I can keep up with this one!
@66: Also Sansa’s descent from the Eyrie and (fifth?) betrothal. Not the most intense chapters, but I’m partial to it.
I’m not as convinced Leigh isn’t liking the book(s) as some people seem to be.
I don’t know. I kind of screeched when reading that she told Braid she didn’t like ASoS all that much. ASoS!!! If you don’t like ASoS ASoiaF might just really not be for you.
Well, that’s ultimately her decision to make, and as she’s apparently chosen to keep going, I can only respect it.
Ah, the dwarf at the “mummer’s show in Braavos” is in the Mercy Chapter from WOW!
And the dwarf in the Riverlands is probably the Ghost of High Heart, the woodswitch that gave all those (true) prophecies on the Red Wedding, Cat’s undeadness, and Sansa being a tool in Joffrey’s murder. The only thing left to come true is the maid (Sansa) to slay a giant in a castle, unless you hold to to event taking place being about Robert’s doll that she destroyed.
@71 Correct you are. I wonder if we’ll ever see the gay dwarf prostitute in Oldtown that was mentioned in this chapter?
@72 I’m pretty sure the maid slaying a savage giant is Sansa ripping the doll’s head off, because Robert was making the doll act as a giant to knock down Winterfell.
Reareading the chapter this week was the first time I noticed the rumor about Tyrion being in Braavos. Apparently that show began playing a while before “Mercy” joined the company.
I suspect Leigh will be mightily frustrated by Dany’s ADWD arc, and not willing/able to afterward read the Meereenese Blot which has converted so many disgruntled readers. I still look forward to her discussion of it. Mwahaha.
@74
Unless the event in question is meant to mask something further down the road. We learn at some point that House Baelish originally came from Braavos, and that Littlefinger’s grandfather took the titan of Braavos as his sigil. If Sansa does slay a “giant” it could be the giant that no one sees (in story), very few people know the arms of House Baelish other then Littlefingers personal sigil of the Mockingbird.
@76, I’ve always assumed the giant to be Littlefinger, a metaphorical one though.
Was it in this chapter that GRRM hinted that Maggy is Jeyne Westerling’s grandmother?
@78 Correct. Cersei remembers that Maggy was married to a merchant that her grandfather raised to nobility (the Spicers).
Actually, it is almost outright stated in ASOS by Keven when he remembers the Westerlings trying to marry their children to his own. He makes a connection of Maggy as the grandmother that the Spicers descend from, that she is the forutne teller that a good portion of Lannisport went to for potions.
@@@@@ 78, 79 Partly. This chapter has a mention of Maggy being married to a wealthy spice trader, and her son being made a petty lord. It’s not until in a later Jaime chapter that we hear about Sybell Westerling being born a Spicer, and her grandmother being a witch woman from the east.
I’m still wondering whether GRRM intended the subtle Iron Man homage that a Pepper pots sigil girl marries a Stark.
@82 – Almost certainly. GRRM is an avowed fan of Marvel Comics.
@83 – Not just Marvel. There’s the scene in an one of the books that lists sygils present at a battle, and they include a green arrow, a blue beetle, and a lightning bolt. With regard to the Starks, I remember reading an interview where he said specifically he named them after Tony.
@84 – I completely missed that – I do recall an interview where GRRM gushed about once having one of his letters to the editors published in a Marvel title, though.
Do you remember how the Lothson heraldry was described? I really, really, really hope it’s a black bat on a field of yellow…
@@@@@ 85 It’s a black bat on a field that’s half silver, half yellow.
There was a Robin Boy Wonder reference last season during the show, I forget what it was though, I just remember a show only watcher pointing it out, only to state that their boyfriend, the book reader, said Martin would never allow that.
I took great pleasure in pointing out the pepper pot sigil, and she loved that she got something to shove in her boyfriends face.
@86 – Ha, that certainly covers all the angles.
In today’s chapter there is a mention of a dwarf in Bravos. We meet him in the Mercy chapter playing Tyrion, which makes the report half true.
Aegon would make a decent valonqar if he doesn’t turn out to be fake
I think Rickon might be the “little brother” who slays Cersei.
I’m not sure Loras is in great peril either as we saw what happened with our Favorite Onion Knight’s head being on a pole.
@89: I suspect the dwarf hermit in the Riverlands might be the Ghost of High Heart from SoS, too.
I just finished reading the Mereenese Blot essays and they really are pretty fantastic. I actually did enjoy ADWD and could tell that there was something going on that would turn out to be significant (including the Quentyn stuff…even if the significance was just that sometimes the hero fails, but he has some interesting speculation on what could end up coming of all this)…but it was really interesting to see it examined so closely. I feel kind of dumb for not catching it all, really!
I was pretty stoked that Leigh lit on the prophecy being on ‘the valonqar’, not HER valonqar. I am pretty sure I only caught that because I read it pointed out somewhere else.
I do laugh at all the commenters who say that the whole Quentyn thing didn’t contribute to the storyline, because, ok it could have happened another way if not because of Quentyn, but I’d call letting the dragons loose to wreak havoc and carry Dany away pretty important to the plot. It’s true that in the end, Quentyn himself may have been just a tool, but the gears that he started turning are probably going to be pretty important.
@94 Tabby- Yes, the unleashing of the dragons was somewhat important to the plot, but Quentyn only unleashed Rhaegal and Viserion; Drogon, who Dany rode off on, was never chained and thus never unleashed by Quentyn.
@93 Meereenese Blot essays is the best ASOIAF analysis that i’ve seen. The speculation is very convincing unlike most fan theories.
In today’s post, Leigh brilliantly notes that Un-Cat is coming and that might not turn out well for Brienne. Right…on…the…nosey!
Re ADWD, the Quentyn arc is critical to the entire story – not just because of the dragons but because it forces Doran and Ariane to consider allying with Fake Aegon. Originally, Ariane-Vis. Next Quentyn-Dany. Now, almost certainly, with Dany no longer a marriage prospect, it will be Ariane and F-Aegon. Dorne is so teed up to get screwed in the upcoming battles after they picked the wrong dragon.
Re: Quentyn
Okay, they may exist to set stuff up in the future, but does that mean that they have to be so mind-numbingly boring in the present? Seriously. When I got to where he died, I think I literally said “Fuck these chapters.”
I still feel that Martin made a major error with all of Dorne by killing the Red Viper before introducing another character for us to care about. I loved Oberyn (like most people) and it was gut-wrenching when he was killed. But since I didn’t have another Dornish character to care about at the time, I just said screw it, not going to care about Dorne. And nothing else has convinced me to think otherwise. Every single Dornish character has been spinning their wheels for near 1800 pages…why should I care about Dorne? If Martin had introduced someone in addition to Oberyn for us to transfer our affections when he died, I might be invested in their storyline now. As it stands, Dorne could burn and I wouldn’t really care…which makes me sad. I want to care.
Oh, so that’s the singer I’ve been hearing about in relation to Edmure, I couldn’t find him in the books anymore. What was the theory about him again, he’s supposed to be the guy from the BwB, right?
@99 He is the guy from the BWB. In the next Jamie chapter he introduces himself: Tom O’Sevens (the singer who was with the BWB from the beginning). It’s clear that he has been spying for the BWB, and he is probably why they knew that Ryman was returning to the Twins with a minimal guard. The Freys are being picked off one by one, partly through his intelligence efforts as a spy in their camp.
Whoo! Hunny!
the only thing interesting about what Ryman does is actually the Crown itself. Jaime instructs him that he cannot take it with him but he does anyway. Perhaps I’m reading into this too much but it seems like the man went out of his way to defy him because of the earlier exchange, perhaps suggesting that the Freys in general will not heed his orders to let those taken captive at the Red Wedding be ransomed.
@99 – It’s a subversion of the usual trope. Honorable young noble meets beautiful princess and…she too concerned with her hot sellsword to bother. It also puts Dorne in an awkward bad luck position. Ariane engaged to Viserys… not happening. Quentyn pursues Dany as a fall back….not happening. Now there will be tremendous pressure on Ariane to web Aegon, who is everything Doran and Ariane could dream of and will make up for the two false starts. But…that will be the most painful not happening of them all.
We will get more Dorne in the next book. Sarella is most definitely worth rooting for. The other older Sand Snakes scare me. Tyene in KL will be fascinating.
@RobMRobM
Okay…NEXT book we’ll get more Dorne and we’ll care then…that’s fully 2000 pages since the only Dornish character I rooted for died. For me that’s far too long. I understand what he’s doing, but I don’t care about Dorne. And I think that’s because Martin trained me not to. He made me fall in love with the Red Viper and then killed him. Awesome choice and storyline, I just don’t care about Dorne because of it. Then he does the exact same thing with Quentyn (minus being awesome). He tells me to care about this character (which I don’t), and then kills him too. I didn’t care when Quentyn died, but it’s very much a “boy calling wolf” situation for me. Dorne wasn’t important for the first 2 1/2 books, and I don’t believe it’ll be important for the endgame. Hence…I don’t care.
Based on Leigh’s comments, I can’t wait to see her reaction to Brienne’s last chapter with Catlyn.
@103, I had the exact opposite reaction. When I learned we were getting more Dorne, I was all “OOOOH Oberyn’s family, I hope they are mostly awesome”
And they mostly are. They cool, cunning, honorable good people who have not let their power overwhelm their good hearts. I love them all.
Even after learning that Biter had been speared in the neck, I didn’t realize the “tongue” was the bloody spear until hearing it from The Fandom. I thought it was his actual tongue, possibly exaggerated by pain-hallucination, Though I was puzzled because I’d read somewhere else that his tongue had been cut out.
Like Leigh, I thought Edmure was merely dismayed at having to hear the song representing the massacre which had occured while he, uh, didn’t have a “floppy fish.” I’d forgotten all about the incident with Tom.
Re Dorne: I’m way more interested in the Sand Snakes than the Martells, and would like them to become prominent in the story ASAP.
@103 HiHo- How can you not like Dorne? As Aeryl said @105, I was psyched from the beginning because Oberyn was so awesone. And everything about the Martells and the country has me enchanted… the spicy food and wine, the lemons, the desert, the orphans of the river with their painted boats, the women skilled in seduction, the Sand Snakes, Prince Doran and his mad long-term plotting skills…I just love it all (even Dorkstar is kinda fun).
@Aeryl, MDNY
Basically because of Martin’s conditioning. In my opinion, he’s repeatedly shown me that they aren’t important to the main storyline. If they were important, why do we not see them for 2 1/2 books and then only have them spin their narrative wheels for the next 1800 pages? So, no matter how flavorful they are…I just don’t care. I mean, I cared with Oberyn, because he’s awesome in every way. My love for the Martells died with him, and was exacerbated by Quentyn.
@106, The Sand Snakes ARE Martells, they just don’t have the name.
@108, But that’s NOT Martin’s “conditioning”, that is your perception. Other people have read the same exact things you did, and percieved them completely differently.
Which, again, is fine. I just think you are putting too much of this on Martin here. We didn’t see or hear about Dany or Tyrion for an entire book, did that lead you to believe that they weren’t important? Of course not, it led you to believe, NOW is not their time. It wasn’t Dorne’s time yet either.
@108: if it makes you feel any better, GRRM is on record for saying he regrets killing Oberyn so quickly. But I can’t find the source right now of that information
@Aeryl
Yes, that is my perception of what Martin is doing. Just like it is my perception of what he is doing with all the fakeouts with the chapter cliffhangers. (see my comment @25) And I think it’s an error. I like the Sand Snakes too. What happened to them? Instantly locked up. Arianne? Locked up. Doran? Behind the scenes plotting. Quentyn? Moping, then firey death.
I do have one question for you and MDNY: What have any of the Dornish done to affect the main storyline? (excepting Oberyn, of course)
In my defense, I hated what he did with Dany and Tyrion in ADWD, so, yeah I don’t believe they were important in ADWD. Or more accurate, they weren’t fun to read and not about advancing plot and only minor character development. More like moving pieces to where he wants them for the finale. It’s a 900 page prologue to TWoW.
@Braid_Tug
I’m really conflicted about it, though. Because that ending was perfect and set up everything for Tyrion as it needed to be. I guess I’m saying that I would have preferred for another Dornish character to be with Oberyn in King’s Landing so we’d have another character to have affection towards when Oberyn dies. That’s how it’s worked with all the other major deaths and why we were able to transfer when Ned died. He wasn’t the only viewpoint character in the book up to that point. Oberyn was. At least as far as Dorne is concerned.
@111,
Or more accurate, they weren’t fun to read and not about advancing plot or character.
I really disagree with this, because I think Dany’s chapters were ALL about advancing character, about shaping what type of ruler she will be(A bad one, IMO). Tyrion’s was all about learning TRUE oppression. While Tyrion’s always struggled with his dwarfism, he finally learned what it was like for those who weren’t protected by the wealth and status he enjoyed, which is very important.
What have any of the Dornish done to affect the main storyline?
I don’t see why this matters. What did Ned Stark do to have an effect on the main storyline?
@108 Hihosilver: I’ll grant you that not much has happened (yet) in the main storyline, but my favorite aspect of ASOIAF is all the little things that add up, kind of like the buttefly effect on a worldwide scale. Quentyn sucked, and his storyline mostly sucked, but it has repurcussions, most notable his unleashing the dragons and his tipping off Dany that Dorne would stand by her if she returns. The Sand Snakes are free again, and there’s almost certainly some killing to be done by them (most likely cause of death for Tommen=Lady Nym, or another of the Sand Snakes). Arianne is now en route to meet with FAegon, whose storyline annoyed me a bit but at least he’s helping tie things together and is seriously propelling the action forward with his attack on Storm’s End. Arianne kidnapped Myrcella, leading to her maiming. Sarella is in the Citadel with Sam now, and involved with Marwyn (or was, before he left).
So all in all, while they haven’t been central to the other story lines, they have been relevant. I don’t view this as just the tale of the Starks and Lannisters, and it isn’t. If you don’t enjoy the other plot lines that’s fine (I really don’t enjoy the Iron Islands for the most part, but I don’t dismiss them as irrelevant). But I REALLY like Dorne, even if the coolest character from Dorne (Oberyn, duh) is gone. To each his own…
@Aeryl
Okay, okay. My loathing of Dany’s and Tyrion’s arcs in ADwD are poisoning me towards this. There is character “growth”, though I would say that Tyrion didn’t actually learn anything…or not much at least. But I just feel that their arcs could have been compressed and saved us 200 pages. And not made us endure Tyrion on the interminable effing boat ride from hell.
I don’t see why this matters. What did Ned Stark do to have an effect on the main storyline?
Wow. Really? I understand your loathing of Ned, and sympathise with it to a certain extent. But nearly EVERYTHING in this arc has happened because of him. He enables Robert to die, tips off the Lannisters about the twincest, causes Renly to run off to the Tyrells to create his own kingdom, sends Beric out to the Riverlands, takes Arya and Sansa to the centric cesspool of the story, and then his death kicks off the Westeros World War. WWW taken as an acronym? :-) Anyway, all that to say, I don’t see the Dornish having that impact on any of the story…outside of Oberyn. I had forgotten that Quentyn had let the dragons loose when he got roasted. And I would say that that could have been done by any other character if Quentyn were excised from the story entirely.
@MDNY
I agree that setup is important. But other than setup I don’t feel any connection to the Martells. Any action taken by any of them has instantly been mitigated by the story. (broken record, but once again with the exception of Oberyn) We won’t know what the plan is for the Martells until TWoW. And I will be more than willing to eat crow at that time if they turn out to be vital to the story. I just don’t believe that they will be.
@114, Those are all PASSIVE actions, which is my point. He doesn’t cause or effect anything, he stands arounds and allows things to happen.
@Aeryl
Hmm…that’s true to a large extent. I still feel that his searching out the true parentage of Cersei and his confrontation of her were active, and so was spitting in Tywin’s eye by sending Beric to arrest/execute Gregor. He was definitely more comfortable being passive, which is why he retreated to Winterfell and ignored everything in the first place, but I do see him as active in several different ways.
I am glad that there are people who really enjoy ADwD. It felt like too much wheel spinning in my opinion. I am really looking forward to TWoW, though.
@116, That was more my point,(end of the work day, had to be brief). It’s not that Ned doesn’t DO anything, you’re right he learns the truth and gives the finger to Tywin. Yet, he does nothing with the truth, he does nothing to stop Robert’s assassination, he doesn’t cultivate allies. Aside from ensuring the creation of UnCat by sending Dondarrion, I can’t think of anything Ned DID, in the story, that had a long term effect on the story. He tried to protect Cat when she took Tyrion, but I don’t think that action changed the course of the story. We LEARNED a lot of things from Ned’s POV, things we have to know for the story, so as a plot driver, he has value. But as an active character, not so much.
“They cool, cunning, honorable good people who have not let their power overwhelm their good hearts” – overall I agree, and I love the Martells/Sand Snakes (especially as they are at least trying to take the children into account) but…I do think in the end their desire for vengeance will overrule them. I don’t think killing Tommen is a just action (really, Ellaria is one of my favorites for her speech about the pointlessness of the cycle) – especially as they later get all bent out of shape when they hear somebody targeted Trystane. (Again, there is some pretty interesting stuff in the Mereenese Blot breaking down the various character motivations and what their pitfalls may be).
But yeah, overall, Dorne rocks – I love spicy food and wine too. Super excited to see Alexander Siddig take on the role of Doran. That’s going to be interesting.
Lisamarie – agree. Love Dorne but lust for vengeance will prove to be their fatal flaw (except for Sarella, who is awesome and can do anything).
Pray forgive me for not reading the first five threads. Has there been any discussion of Preston Jacobs’ theory that R+L=D? If so, were reactions to it primarily positive, negative or mixed? Just curious! And thanks.
@120 Aenor- I don’t think there has been discussion of R+L=D (that usually goes with B+A=J, for Brandon plus Ashara = Jon, and I firmly oppose both). I am sure that R+L=J, which I think most of the community here agrees.
@120: How could R+L = Dany? That doesn’t make any since to me.
@121 and others: have you all see the articles where GRRM hints that the fans got “some things” right? Yet he’s temped to change them since we figured it out?
Ugh!!
George, if you had not taken 20+ years to finish your story, maybe fandom would not have had the time to figure out your surprises!
But it re-enforces my belief that he is / was a great short story writer who decided to experiment with an epic story. Then got lost in its scope.
And was totally unprepared for the fandom in epic fantasy worlds.
Thus why we get so many short stories about the world. If he could find a way to finish the story as a bunch of short stories, I really think he would go that route.
What do you all think? and would you accept the story being finished as a group of short stories?
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 122
I watched recent GRRM’s interview and Q & A session at the Edinburgh Festival on the BBC. I recall on this topic that he said that he thought whether to do it (change things that fans’ have sussed out).
The conclusion he reached was a big NO. He gave very powerful reasons for this too. Such as that he has written in the story so many subtle clues and changing the planned outcome would simply spoil the story he has written so far. Plus, the whole idea of doing it this way is so that people are able to deduce from the clues he introduces in the narrative.
As for the short story finish- no effing way!
@ValMar, 123: I’m glad he’s being smart. But even suggesting it was an eye-roll moment.
@122 – In GRRM’s defense, GOT came out just around when it became possible for we crazies to collaborate online and catalogue his every paragraph.
The fun part is when minor continuity glitches (like a character’s eye color) leads to elaborate unified theories about the Others. My favorite is the Fake Jeyne Westerling theory, which came about because of different descriptions of her hips by Cat and Jaime. I’m convinced this was just a minor continuity flub, but there’s a ton of fan theories that the one we meet in the next Jaime chapter is an imposter.
@125 IG- GRRM has stated that he is terrible at eye color, so you should never take what he writes about a character’s eyes as significant. He likewise said that when he started writing Game of Thrones, he had never seen a horse in his life, and “I had absolutely no idea what a horse even looked like”, which accounts for some inconsistencies in horses, as well.
I’m not familiar with the FJane theory, but given the sheer number of loony theories I’ve encountered, I’m not that surprised.
I believe GRRM says that Jeyne does show up in WoW, so it…might…not…be…so…crazy (or at least we should find out soon).
Basically, theory as I understand it is that description of Jeyne when she encounters Jaime does not physically match the earlier Jeyne. The thought is the real Jeyne is in hiding and carrying Robb’s child, and an imposter is covering for her. I don’t think I buy it but there is at least some tangential support for it.
@127 RobM- There’s no way Jeyne’s mother would be involved in something like that, and no way she wouldn’t recognize an imposter. I don’t get it. Plus, it seems pretty clear that Robb doesn’t have any potential offspring (by the rules, Robb’s son would come before Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya in the inheritence of Winterfell), given that the show killed off his wife in the Red Wedding. Jeyne may show up, but I don’t think she’ll ever be central to the plot.
It seems clear that the deaths of the parents of the Baratheon Brothers were important events in their lives. We already know its effect on Stannis: to put it it in a few words, it made his current personality what it is. Now, what I want to know is: How this affected Robert and Renly?
@129 Owley- I don’t know how much of an impact their parents’ deaths had on the Baratheon boys. Renly was only one year old at the time, and Robert was mostly raised by Jon Arryn (along with Ned). Stannis appears to have been affected the most, as it was what led him to renounce the Seven (and eventually join R’hillor, though it also explains his continued reluctance to follow Melisandre despite his wife’s devotion- he mistrusts religion because of his parents’ deaths). But Stannis was always silent and moody, as Cressen’s memories in the beginning of ACOK show. Stannis’ resentment of Robert was partly middle child syndrome, partly personality (Robert and Renly were both very likeable and charismatic, while Stannis…was not), and partly resentment (if Robert was king, Stannis, as second son, was rightful Lord of Storm’s End, but Robert gave it to Renly since Dragonstone needed a strong ruler). It’s possible that if their father had still lived, then the three Baratheon boys would have turned out differently, but it seems that Robert and Stannis, at least, were already pretty similar to their adult selves at the time their parents died.
@126 MDNY: That Clickhole story about not knowing what horses look like was satire.
@128 MDNY
If I remember correctly, the theory is not that someone has snuck an impostor in under Mother Westerlings nose but rather that Mommy Dearest is the one who started the whole thing to protect her daughter.
Jeyne’s mother conspired with the Lannisters and Freys to kill Robb in order to get back into the good graces of their former allies. Now the theory goes that in the meantime Jeyne had become pregnant with Robb’s child. Obviously, that’s a huge freaking problem and would very likely get Jeyne killed once it gets out (I just realized that there are at least two entendres in this innocent little sentence). So, on top of the Red Wedding conspiracy, Mother Westerling also spun her own little scheme switching Jeyne for an impostor to keep her save.
I hope we get two chapters today, because Doran’s reveal is a really nice “Holy crap!” moment.
@132: But I have to agree with someone from above. Because Jeyne never really existed in the show, and they killed the pregnant wife. I think she is a “dead end.”
Speaking as a woman who wears period dresses often, your hips can look very different based on what you are wearing that day.
Plus guys and girls see people’s bodies differently.
Since GRRM doesn’t keep eye color straight, I wouldn’t put too much importance on how book Jayne’s hips are described.
GRRM needs a continuity editor, like Jordan had Maria and Sanderson has Peter.
@134 – he does have one, sort of. Elio and Linda from Westeros.org are his frequent consultants.
@134, I feel the same way, yet GRRM has said that just because the show threw that way, doesn’t mean the books will.
The main reason I don’t buy the Fake Jeyne theory is that her grief in the next Jaime chapter just seems way too genuine, along with her dialogue with her supposedly fake mother. An imposter would try to keep her head down and avoid notice (fully justifiable behavior given the circumstances), and not cause the kind of ruckus Jaime witnessed. I just don’t buy Sybelle finding an Oscar-worthy actress on short notice in the middle of a war zone.
Another problem is that the conspiracy depends on an absurdly large number of conspirators to maintain the masquerade. Unlike Jeyne Poole as Arya, the Westerlings have dozens of retainers all over the place, along with all of the pardoned Riverlords, all of whom would have had plenty of contact with their Queen. Jaime was also charged with finding the missing Westerling brother (who got filled with arrows at the Red Wedding) and was not read in on his mother’s plans. Are all of these people going to continue the act independently?
I used to be a bit of a supporter of the Fake Jeyne theory. It just seemed too weird to me that Catelyn would specifically think that Jeyne had wide hips that would be good for childbearing and then Jamie thinks that her hips are narrow (or something like that. Lent out my books.) Why would these two characters comment specifically on her hips it totally opposite ways? I don’t recall many other characters having their hips discussed the first time a POV meets them.
That being said, I’m basically off of it. I can rationalize Sybelle’s motivations but it would be just too hard to pull off. I used to put more stock in the show’s treatment of that storyline disproving the theory but I’m not so sure anymore with the way the show has gone.
If anything, considering that the time frame running from Red Wedding, Purple Wedding, Tyrion’s trial and escape, and Jaime’s arrival in Riverrun is just a few months, what’s more likely is that Jeyne is pregnant is tied up in a corset to hide it.
Um, didn’t GRRM explicitly say that big/narrow hips thing is a continuity error and it even was edited out (the Jaime version) in newer book editions?
I’m puzzled people are still all over this. Jeyne can keep being in the story without being pregnant just fine. Roslin being pregnant with Edmure’s babe is quite enough on that front I think.
I’m one thinking Book Jeyne is pregnant with a Stark heir. I think the book and TV show are bifurcating from this point on. If he ends up being a Lambert Simnel or Perkin Warbeck I don’t know. I think Little Aegon is Perkin Warbeck but is he the Historical one or Pippa Gregory’s?
@141, I’m pretty sure if she IS preggo, she’ll meet the same fate as Talisa(Robb’s show wife)
@143
GRRM did confirm that she would be appearing in the prolouge of the next book, though the chapter wont be from her POV so her chances of survival are much higher (at least at the onset of the book).
@140 – I know he confirmed that the eye color difference (I don’t even remember which character that was) was a continuity error, but I don’t know that he confirmed the hips thing. Regardless, I always thought the theory was a stretch.
Renly. Who was green eyed before he was blue eyed and GRRM said: Well, crap, let’s just go with blue-green eyes alright?
Also, Qyburn’s eyes are brown in ASOS and blue in AFFC.
@147: That’s *Qyburn*, though. He probably did an eye transplant from some poor test subject.
@147, 148- Or Qyburn is now a wight (along with Renly and Val, I suppose-they both had other eye colors and later were described as having blue eyes. Kinda unfortunate that GRRM made eye color so important with regard to wights and yet has continuity errors about it).
Ok so, from the responses to my question about R+L=D, it seems most of you won’t like this at all:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCsx_OFEYH6un7-8efHOg-UL5WdQ9gLSN
Many feel that Preston makes a number of leaps to arrive at his conclusions but I’m quite convinced. Ned’s behavior toward Jon doesn’t make sense if Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ned, this supposedly honorable man, would effictively be disinheriting Jon from Winterfell AND Starfall. Ned thinks of Jon when he thinks of bastards. He hadn’t thought of Rhaegar in years when he thinks of him in GoT. R+L does not = J.
Not to discredit any of the other points, but wouldn’t Jon be a bastard even if R+L=J, since Rhaegar and Lyanna weren’t married to each other?
@149: If Renly were a wight, a slit throat wouldn’t have slowed him down much…
I believe Jeyne’s 12-year-old sister Eleyna is considered a major candidate for a Fake Jeyne, though that’s hard to imagine and I don’t currently subscribe to the whole theory. We Shall See.
“Wouldn’t Jon be a bastard even if R+L=J, since Rhaegar and Lyanna weren’t married to each other?”
I thought R+L=J adherents subscribed to the idea that the Kingsguard are at the Tower of Joy because they’re defending the king, or at least a member of the royal line. Rhaegar may very well have married Lyanna, and may have even done so with Elia’s blessing since Elia could no longer have children and Rhaegar needed a third head for his dragon. But if they weren’t married, why weren’t Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower on the first boat for Dragonstone?
@152 Some do believe that, others don’t. Personally I think it’s quite likely that Jon’s biological parents were Rhaegar and Lyanna, but I’m not at all sure it was a grand love story, and don’t really buy the argument for them having been married.
As for the Kingsguard, they could just be following orders. Or since the Tower of Joy was quite isolated, perhaps they hadn’t heard about what had happened until Ned &co arrived. (I know there’s no mention of telling them in Ned’s fever dream, but, well, it was a fever dream. I think it’s a mistake to assume every moment happened exactly that way.)
The R+L=D theory makes no sense to me, from a story-telling point. So instead of being the only remaining Targaryen heir, Dany is… the only remaining Targaryen heir? Not worth the intricate plot to build up to a reveal that changes nothing. What’s the reason for keeping it a secret? Ned, maybe, if he’s covering up his own part in the story, but why would Viserys? And, back to the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, if the only reason they’re there is to guard the heir to the throne, it makes no sense because Targaryens don’t deal in female heirs since the Dance of the Dragons, so even if Dany were Rhaegar’s daughter, Viserys would still be the heir.
Yes, that’d just be a lame reveal: she’s not his sister, but his daughter… Ok. Right, very nice but doesn’t change a thing. No, Jon goes to the wall because Ned ( stupidly? Or wisely?) does not believe in destiny or magic or people meant to be king. And if you look at the kings he knew that makes sense. Maybe Lyanna didn’t buy any of that crap either and she just made him promise secrecy?
About fake Jeyne: their grandmother was a maegi, right? There could be a little magic involved.
“Not worth the intricate plot to build up to a reveal that changes nothing.”
See there I disagree. I think R+L=J is a red herring. Jon the bastard who is secretly king would be a trope that GRRM would naturally want to subvert by revealing a plot twist we didn’t see coming. I’m by no means a GRRM scholar so I brought this here to solicit opinions. I can understand you saying it would be a lame reveal but it sure would catch a lot of people off guard.
So, okay, you’re saying Jon can still be the prince that was promised and all that even if he is in fact a bastard? By no means do I take Ned’s fever dream as a precise historical accounting, especially since, as Preston points out in his videos, Ned has major gaps in his memory.
“So instead of being the only remaining Targaryen heir, Dany is… the only remaining Targaryen heir?”
Okay here’s how it would go (TLDR warning). Ned rolls up on the ToJ and finds Lyanna and her baby girl Danny. She has blonde hair. He heads south to Starfall to return Dawn. Ashara is there with her bastard that she had with Brandon. He was rotting in the dungeon before being executed and Ashara was part of the royal household with a kingsguard brother and could thus arrange a conjugal visit with Brandon.
Ashara is loyal to Rhaegar and was close with Elia so she will want to protect the Targ heir (in my version of this tinfoil tale, Rhaegar and Lyanna got married in secret, so Danny is legit). Since Ned is Jon’s uncle, Ashara can trust Ned to raise Jon and give him a good life. To protect Danny, Ashara must fake her own death (no body = not dead… she’s Septa Lemore) and go into exile. Ned promised Lyanna that he would protect Danny, but he can’t bring a child with Targ features home to Winterfell.
Ashara is paying a high price to protect Danny, so she extracts a promise from Ned as well. She makes him promise to claim Jon as his own and raise him in his own household. Ashara buys the best life for her child that she can, then takes ship for Dragonstone where she arrives before Rhaella gives birth. Ashara reveals Danny only to Rhaella and maybe a few other trusted loyalists. Word reaches Dragonstone that fAegon lives and Ashara decides that Danny is as safe as she can be on Dragonstone with her grandmother and sets sail to assume the identity of Septa Lemore and help raise fAegon.
Rhaella then dies in childbirth, the Targ fleet is destroyed and the remaining loyalists lack the strength to withstand a seige. They decide to flee to Bravos or wherever and pass Danny off as Rhaella’s child that was actually stillborn. They figure it will be hard to convince anyone that Danny is legitimate if she’s Rhaegar’s child, so passing her off as Viserys’ sister will avoid the legitimacy issue so she can be married later.
That’s mostly my interpretation of Preston’s tinfoil theory with very few original ideas on my part. Seems like a good plot twist to me =)
I called Danny “the Targ heir” but I only meant to say she is in the line of succession if all the males are extinguished, which is what ends up happening unless fAegon is legit.
@155 The more you explain, the less I buy it. There are so many changes to what we’ve been told so far (Dany born on Dragonstone, the hints about Rhaegar and Lyanna, the blue rose) that it makes no sense, both from what’s been written and a narrative structure.
R+L=J is one of the more annoying ideas I find, I don’t hate the idea actually, only in so much that it is discussed to death. It’s a very likely explanation that has been building up to a reveal for the last five books so everyone has had eons to discuss it, “But lets consider scenario B through W as other explanations”. Either way there is an easy way to resolve an explanation to the whole “Jon is a bastard so he can’t be legitimate”.
Supposing on the mindset of Elia (or Ashara for that matter) is not worth the consideration to me, if only because we have never been in her mind nor have we been given any meaningful detail on her character aside from how her siblings loved and mourned her. Barristan gossip does not equate to proof on the home life of Rhaegar. So what we have to go by is the Kingsguard at the tower and history.
The fever dream of Ned highlights one critical aspect of the three KG, they claim they are doing their duty and will not be reproached otherwise. When probed for answers on their locations throughout the rebellion they answer the services they would have rendered to the Targs but that they had other commitments that took priority. Guarding the Heir’s mistress and her “bastard” does not make sense unless the three consider the product of the coupling legitimate. Furthermore, the only reason they could consider the kid legitimate is if there is precedent of similar circumstances.
The history of the Targaryens in Westeros starts at the conquest, when Aegon and his two wives bent the continent to them and their dragons. The polygamy extends further as Maegor took multiple wives as well in this fashion. The issue of Targ polygamy never seems to be put to rest officially, they just stopped doing it unlike the incest.
TBH, I don’t give any of the parentage theories much thought. We’ll find out or we won’t, and unless Jon is Ned’s son by Lyanna or something similarly shocking, I’ll probably remain much more interested in characters’ futures than their pasts.
@160 I do agree on the point that it is a wait and see. It the one of the more plausible theories out there, but on one of the forums I frequent there are more than 100 “official” iterations of re-hashing the same ideas (this does not count the other threads that new members seem interested to make on their own).
@157
“Dany born on Dragonstone” Only authority we have on that is Viserys, who was a child at the time. If his mother died in childbirth and the loyalists told him “this is your sister,” how would he know otherwise? Do you suppose he was in the birthing room?
@158
“Guarding the Heir’s mistress and her “bastard” does not make sense unless the three consider the product of the coupling legitimate.”
That’s not what it says in the book. “Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children … even their lovers, mistresses and bastards.” — The Queensguard, ADwD I don’t doubt Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been married prior to her giving birth to whichever child was at the ToJ. But if it’s Jon or if it’s Danny, either comes after Viserys in the line of succession. They are not guarding a king (or queen) at the ToJ. And if Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then honorable Ned took his lordship of Winterfell from him.
@161 Rhaeger’s legitimate son would come before Viserys in the line of succession. I agree that the Kingsguard could be with a non king/queen, but I am pretty convinced R+L=J. It just makes sense thematically and nothing else does. And I know plenty of people who have read the books but don’t frequent forums about them, who have not guessed R+L. It will be sufficient twist reveal for most readers.
And three KG = not a bastard, as far as I’m concerned.
aenor @161: In addition to Bookworm1398 @162’s point that a legitimate son of Rhaegar would be ahead of Viserys in the succession, a legitimate son of Lyanna’s would be behind Ned’s children in the succession for Wintefell, nevermind Ned himself.
Here’s a good test for the R+L=D theory, does it follow the maxim, KISS?
Then it’s probably not going to happen. Think of how much more information would have to be given for that to be true. How much more “this is how it really happened” we’d have to learn before that could be dropped on us?
The roadwork for R+L=J is already laid. To say that was all misdirect, to keep us from guessing that R+L=D, is just ludicrous, and I doubt an author as skilled and talented as Martin would go that route, because you’d eventually have to admit the massive con job you were pulling on your audience, and that’s just bad form.
Actually, the most straightforward application of KISS principle is as follows: L + R = Ice and Fire; J and D = Ice and Fire; plus, in a different type of relationship, Dragons v. Others = Ice and Fire. My assumption is that if a theory involves the title of the entire freaking series, good chance KISS principle will apply and it will be shown to be true.
Jon is Ice and Fire by himself, you don’t need Dany. I don’t think she has any real role to play at all(I did for awhile, but she’s been shown to be such a bad ruler and a genetic dead end) aside from birthing the dragons and getting them to Westeros. She’ll be one of the heads, but I don’t see much for her past that. She’ll likely die.
Per HOTU, she has her three loves with the last one being special. If not Jon, who else? Also, they’ve both been on parallel leader quests figuring out how to govern people and peoples, with some rough spots along the way, but they’re going to earn good leader status rather than having it handed to them.
It makes story sense to unify those two paths when Dany gets to Westeros. It’s going to happen. Are they going to have happy ending at end? Not necessarily. I’d be betting on mutual death while saving the world but they’ll be working together all the way, I’d wager.
Ahhh, but who is the third head of the dragon? Please, not FAegon. FTyrion? Bran?
Hodor!
Not F-Aegon. Maybe Tyrion (I don’t like it at all but there is a lot of pointing in ADWD that Targ blood is critical to dragon riding and Tyrion seems all over that – so either Lannisters have a Targ line in them or…. the Aerys Dad theory comes to fruition. Boy I’m hoping for the former.) If not, I have no idea.
Interesting point is I believe strongly that Tyrion and Sansa will be together as a couple in the end. So if Tyrion has Targ blood and if they end up together, it’s yet another pairing of Ice and Fire.
I don’t think it’s the Targ blood necessarily, I think they can skinchange, and that’s what they do with the dragons. The Targs are just self centered enough to never notice that others have that power too.
So far its only been specifically mentioned that the dragons like one character – Brown Ben Plumm. He seems as good a candidate for the third rider as anybody else.
@172, If the the dragonriders aren’t characters we’ve been involved with since the beginning, I’ll be ticked.
Actually, as I think about it, both Gendry and Edric Storm have Targ blood as does Stannis (and Shireen too, for that matter). They are more likely candidates than Ben Plumb .
I’ll take Shireen as a Dragonrider.
That would be pretty sweet.
I was a little sad that Leigh had such a blah reaction to the latest chapter and Dorne’s long con. I’m wondering if she’ll decide to continue with ADWD, and if she’ll find that one interesting/thinky, or just boring and then really decide not to continue.
I also think she’ll just give up on the series in the near future (unless her paycheck increases). She already dislikes Dorne and the Iron Islands, I wonder how much she’ll like places that are even more distant from the Iron Throne in ADWD, not to mention that Meereen combines both being distant from the Iron Throne with having lots of unlikeable characters.
Most readers dislike the characters with strange names there, but I think the Meereenese arc is very interesting, showing how difficult ending slavery would be, it would be very different from what we see in Hollywood movies, where things must wrap up before 3 hours and democracy and freedom must prevail (otherwise the audience gets angry and doesn’t pay for tickets).
But Tyrion, Jon and Dany are back and she likes the “good guys”. Oh wait… Maybe the “Mystery Knight” will be the death knell? I sure wanted to kill something after that.
She doesn’t dislike Dorne, she said flat out in her article that it was her favorite place in Westeros. What she isn’t getting is how this ties in with the rest of the story.
I think she’s becoming like the rest of us hanging on cause the first 3 books were so good. I think that the Apocalypse Now boat ride with Griff and the turtles is what will finally kill it for her.
I’m wondering the direction the TV show is about to take. All the rumors about Jamie heading to Dorne and not the Riverlands and a year Sabbatical for Bran and Hoder.
It is Thursday afternoon, right?
Maybe she already gave up. Too bad – that last Cersie chapter was the “hump” of AFFC for me. The last few chapters are full of entertaining reveals – Arianne getting the truth from her father. Sansa meeting Harry the Heir, Cersei locked up by the Septon she raised (by killing his predecessor) , Jamie ignoring Cersei’s pleas, and Samwell landing in Old Town. It’s a fun run.
I loved AFFC, for what it’s worth.
My biggest gripe with the books was always that aside from Arya’s chapters, you didn’t really get to see HOW this war affected the commoners, because everything was from a Noble born perspective. But with Brienne and Jaime’s chapters, you get a better sense of that.
In addition, as horrific as they are, I love Cersei’s chapters, it’s so delightful to watch her fall apart.
@181, There is a new post up.
@180 Except Leigh was reserved in her response to ASOS, which was the best book, IMHO. “I don’t know that I can say I loved it—it was just a little too mean to me for that…”
Once I read that, I began to have serious reservations about the rest of the ROAIF, given the problems with AFFC and ADWD that even diehard fans encounter.
I’m hoping she’ll at least love the last chapter, with the full Maester Marwyn awesomeness, even if she doesn’t catch Alleras’ secret identity.
Yeah, if you think ASOS is too mean, you’ll have a really bad time with AFFC/ADWD and the rest of it I would think.
so…. no new post?
It’s up
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/09/a-read-of-ice-and-fire-a-feast-for-crows-part-29
There you go
@186-There’s a post today, at the same time as usual (1:00 Eastern). Just look for the link on the main Tor page, it hasn’t been posted on the series page yet.
It didn’t post the top of the page, but it’s there now. I think a lot of people don’t scroll, they just look for it at the top right of the page, next to the fiction content.
ah, ok. thanks! I keep the series paged bookmarked.
I just wait for it to show up in the “Latest Posts” column. It did.
I have mixed feelings about people commenting that Leigh should care about what’s going on in Dorne. On the one hand, they’re right, she should. But on the other, hinting that Dorne is going to turn out to be more important than she thinks is a bit spoilery and leading and against the Prime Directive.
@191 – yes, but it’s obviously more important than she thinks based on the plain text of this chapter. As far as Leigh knows, Quentyn could succeed in getting Dany on board, she’ll show up in Dorne, and march up the coast with dragons before Qyburn finishes using up his next offering from Cersei. I hinted, but did not discuss, the obvious questions. Who did Doran make the marriage pact with? What is Doran committed to do to support the effort? Are there other Westeros supporters lined up outside of Dorne? Is Varys, Illyrio or anyone else involved? Are other Essos kingdoms involved (such as Pentos or Doran’s in-laws in Norvos)?
Oh I agree, at this point as far as any first-time reader knows, Dorne could become the primary focus of the rest of the series, or it could barely be mentioned again. I don’t think Leigh is unreasonable in her skepticism about Dorne’s importance. You say it’s obvious per se just from the text of the chapter, but it’s certainly not obvious to all readers. In fact, it seemed to me that it would be just the kind of thing Martin would do to make it SEEM like it was going to be important, and turn out to be a dud.
If I had been sharing my first-read experience with someone who had read all the books (to that point) and they had told me “pay attention to the Dorne chapters…they reveal a lot of important stuff”, it definitely would have affected my first-read experience. Probably for the better, I admit. But that’s the reason for my mixed feelings. We’re not supposed to interfere in Leigh’s experience, but in this case it might be an improvement.
Anh.
Understood.
#42 on the newest thread needs to be partly whited out for spoilers – we know that William Darry protected Dany and Viserys at this point, but we don’t learn that he signed the marriage pact until Dany does in ADWD.
@195 – Done, thanks!
I ask for permission to henceforth refer to Brandon Stark the Elder (Ned’s brother) as Big Bran!
Now that Bran’s a tree, when his bark peels off, can we call it Bran Flakes?
(ever get a feeling a thread’s about to turn ugly? I do sometimes…)
“Raisin’ Bran.” It is known.
http://www.thebacklot.com/game-of-thrones-recap-release-the-hounds/04/2013/
@198 Tabbyfl55
“About to”…?
Why don’t we just call him “Bran New”?
It’s the Bran New way
and the tree is high
all ravens are singing that you’re gonna die
How I hesitated.
now I wonder why
It’s the Bran New way.
It’s the Bran New me
I got no remorse.
Now the Wights are rising
but I know the course.
I’m gonna shock the world,
I’ll show Westeros
it’s a Bran New way.
It’s the Bran New way
and the tree is high.
All the free folk sing
because you’re gonna die.
Go ahead and laugh,
yeah, I’m a funny guy.
Tell everyone goodbye.
It’s the Bran New way.
@200 – Oooh!
Thisappearedasamoraldilemma
’causeatfirstitwaswweirdthoughIsworetoeliminate
theworstoftheplaguethatdevouredhumanity
it’strueIwasvagueonthehowsohowcanitbe
thatyou, have shown me the li-ight?
Co-starring Meera as Penny, I assume. But would the Others be Captain Hammer or Bad Horse?
Now isn’t Varys involved in most of this getting the Tarq’s back on the throne. I’m wondering if he is working with Doran too? The show seems to have Varys packing up and leaving King’s landing with Tyrion for Braavos. I think I prefer book Varys.
Pentos, not Braavos, and I think it likely Varys won’t stay for long, just to do the intros to Illyrio.
In the books. I’m under the impression that Varys never left. Specifically, when he kills Kevan, he seems to imply that he’s been lurking around ( in various disguises, no doubt) to keep an eye on things and ensure that Cersei is thoroughly buggering the kingdom. Book Varys seems to have just sent Tyrion off to Pentos to join Illyrio, and then to join FAegon and ultimately Dany. Tyrion then throws a hitch in that plan by sending FAegon to invade with the Golden Company, and then Jorah derails Tyrion’s plans by abducting him from a Volantine whorehouse, and then Jorah’s plans are derailed by a slaver capturing them, etc…. It’s just one long series of misadventures throughout Essos.
My point is, that in the books Varys never went on a ship with Tyrion, and I’m under the impression that he has remained skulking about KL, continuing to use his little birds to keep abreast of things and occasionally even to influence events (which he certainly does at the end of ADWD, killing Pycelle and Kevan).
As for working with Doran, I’m not sure how that works. You would think that Varys would know of any plans made across the narrow Sea to join Dorne to Viserys’ cause, yet Illyrio never mentioned it to Viserys. It’s possible that the plans were made between William Darry and Prince Doran, without Illyrio’s knowledge, in which case Varys may not even be aware, as hard as that is to believe. Or else he was just keeping everything compartmentalized, so that if one plan failed the others still had a chance (which would explain why Dany and Viserys never met FAegon).
I don’t know, my head hurts now.
@164 Of course you’re correct. I’m so hung up on the idea of Brandon being Jon’s father I wasn’t thinking correctly. At any rate, whether you credit Preston Jacobs’ theories or not, I found them highly entertaining and thought I would share them here. His series on the Dornish Master Plan is especially relevant to the current material in the Read. Here’s a link to his YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA
@162 “Rhaeger’s legitimate son would come before Viserys in the line of succession.”I don’t understand why this is the case. If Rhaegar died before inheriting, his son would not stand to inherit before Viserys, who would have become king upon his father’s death. Please let me know what I’m missing.
@205 – Rhaegar’s (male) line comes before Viserys. Doesn’t matter if they’d been born yet or not. If that chain of events had taken place in peacetime – Rhaegar dies, Aerys dies, Rhaegar’s wife is pregnant – then the succession would be on hold until the baby was born so they could see if it was a boy or not. A boy would be named king, but if it was a girl the crown would pass to Viserys.
At least that’s how it’s been in most European monarchies for the past thousand years or so. Before that it was often less rigid, and often the next monarch was chosen from a group of adult (or sometimes younger) males who were family members of the previous king.
@202 “Now isn’t Varys involved in most of this getting the Tarq’s back on the throne. I’m wondering if he is working with Doran too?”
If nothing else, Preston’s videos on the Dornish Master Plan have inspired me to reread the series and really look FORWARD to AFFC and ADWD. Suffering as I do from short term memory loss, I would never have picked up on all the clues he documents unless I did a complete read while taking really extensive notes.
As regards @202 question, according to Preston, Varys is Illyrio’s creature while Marwyn and Qyburn are agents for House Martell. In the GoT Arya chapter where she overhears the “wizard” talking to Illyrio in the dungeons of the Red Keep, the obvious conclusion is that this is Varys. They speak of it no longer being “a game for two players.” Who are the two players? Preston thinks they are Illyrio and Doran.
The former sees the Baratheon dynasty bankrupting itself and bringing down the wrath of the Iron Bank of Braavos and simply wants to be in position to profit from the inevitable regime change when the current monarchy falls apart. The latter is in it for fire and blood.
As Preston shows, the two have somewhat similar goals but work at cross purposes whenever the opportunity arrises, right down to the slave bidding for Mormont and Tyrion. Illyrio is supporting fAegon via the Gold Company. He never had any interest in seeing Viserys crowned… that whole adventure was a means toward the end of getting some eggs hatched. The Martells are trying to steal Illyrio’s dragons. The Second Sons were Oberyn’s company.
@204, I know that in the books it seems that Varys never left, so the show is a divergence. However, I think Varys’ departure is only temporary. We are apparently getting Cersei’s walk this season, so Kevan’s death could come as well.
I’ve always loved parody songs and I think this site should use more of them.
Meera: It seems today that all you see
Is violence in the books and sex on TV
Bran: So where did go all these good old-fashioned values?
Jojen, Hodor, Summer, and Coldhands: In which we used to rely?
All: Luckily here’s Bran and Co.
Luckily there’s a group here to give us everything that makes us
Hodor: Hodor, Hodor
Jojen: This!
Coldhands: Is!
Summer: Bran!
All: And Co.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, have fans already tried to make a Bran and Co. spinoff already?
I doubt that Varys and Doran can be working together. Varys’s goal has almost certainly always been to put (fake?) Aegon on the throne; the plot to provide Viserys with a dothraki army was only one of the steps leading to the ultimate goal. Illirio was clearly manipulating Viserys, he obviously saw how deluded he was, but he kept on telling him that he will be a great king and how much people in the seven kingdoms support him, etc. Also see Jorah’s remarks about the inability of the dothraki to capture castles. The dothraki invasion was meant to fail but add to the chaos of the civil war and thus pave the way for the “savior” Aegon. This also makes much more sense because there is no clear motive for Varys/Illirio to support Viserys or Dany, but there is a clear motive for them to support Aegon, who was fostered by Illirio (and might even be his son).
Doran on the other hand didn’t even know that Aegon existed and has always wanted to put either Viserys or Dany (after Viserys died) on the throne. At least I don’t see any reason to suspect that he is hiding anything from Arianne in the “fire and blood” reveal scene. And he seems to be honestly surprised when Aegon shows up with the Golden Company.
I also don’t think that Illirio could know that the dragon eggs will ever hatch; it doesn’t make any sense. If he did think that it was possible for Dany to actually hatch dragons, surely he would have made sure to keep her somewhere close and under control instead of selling her to Drogo. I believe that Drogo’s death and the hatching of the dragons was absolutely unexpected, and has upset Varys’s and Illirio’s plans.
Seeing the importance of the dragons (both as a weapon and as proof of being the true Targ heir) Varys and Illirio had come up with a new plan – to wed Aegon to Dany and let them conquer Westeros together. But that plan has also failed because Dany decided to stay in Meereen, Tyrion manipulated Aegon into a premature attack without Dany and her dragons, and finally Griff did not stop Aegon because he got greyscale. So now all that remains is to attempt conquest of Westeros without the dragons. Once Varys realized that the Rubicon is crossed and the invasion has started he acted swiftly and killed Kevan and Pycelle, hoping that the resulting chaos will allow Aegon to win even without dragons.
@210 NickH- I agree with most of what you said there. One big question that remains is how Dany will respond to FAegon? While she doesn’t trust magic users much, it seems that she does trust the visions she had at the HOTU, so I’m pretty sure she’s on the lookout for a Mummer’s Dragon. Given that she never really trusted Illyrio (unlike Viserys), and that she belueves Varys betrayed her family and worked with “The Usurper”, she is unlikely to back Faegon just because Illyrio and Varys do.
@211 I mostly agree with the meereenese blot prediction that Dany and Aegon will be at war once Dany returns to Westeros, and Dany will win because of the dragons. Those essays are very convincing.
“The dothraki invasion was meant to fail but add to the chaos of the civil war and thus pave the way for the “savior” Aegon.”
Not to mention it gets 40k Dothraki off Essos.
@212 im not so certain of that outcome. I think dany is doomed to die once she arrives. I keep thinking her role in this is bring dragons to the world and bring them to westoros. Reguardless if Aegon is a targayren or blackfyre I think he will win the second dance of dragons. I feel it would be terrible for him to be introduced so late only to be killed off before the end. He has been taught how to be the man of the people and a strong leader. Aegon will be king and Jon is the prince that was promised (it is the prince that was promised not the king that was promised after all). I still have feeling the the dragon sheepstealer is out there somewhere. Not sure if three young dragons will be enough against the others. Sheepstealer will be big by now (as far as im aware there is no recorded lifespan of wild dragons as they usually die in battle – world of ice and fire might give us details).
@214, If a character I could care less about is the one who “wins” Martin will have conned almost every person to get invested in his novel.
NO author wants to be that author.
He has been taught how to be the man of the people and a strong leader.
Says every defender of the monarchy, ever. So was Rhaegar, so was Joffrey, so was Aerys. Teaching someone to be a strong leader doesn’t mean it will take.
@215: Are you sure Joffrey was taught to be a leader?
Or was he taught that everything was his ‘by right’?
Kings who have spent some time among the people, not living in privileged isolation their whole life tend to be better leaders. Not 100%, but on average.
fAegon has frankly had to wash is own clothes and empty his own chamber pot. Joffrey never did. His mother indulged him in every way. His known father was a lazy slob who indulged himself in every way.
He never faced punishment himself. He had a whipping boy. Who he probably learned how to get off on seeing that boy’s pain. Tommen is upset by it. Joffrey wasn’t.
Far as the text shows Joffrey didn’t even have to act as a Knight’s squire like the Targs made their sons. So he was never even subjected to that level of obeying someone’s orders. Or that form of discipline.
Rhaeger… well having a bat shit crazy father did not help him lead a long life. And yes, he made some choices that we are all asking, why? But if it was to conceive the ‘Prince that was Promised’, we understand his reasoning’s more.
@216, My point still stands. Plenty of people “raised to rule” are shitty rulers. Definition of “rule” may vary.
Dany’s warning of a “Mummer’s Dragon” can’t just be to let us know that fAegon isn’t real, and then see him win the throne anyway. It just can’t. I protest, if that’s what GRRM does. I protest strongly!
IIRC, Brown Ben Plumm shows up again at ADWD. Maybe he’s the Mummer’s Dragon?
While fAegon seems the obvious choice, I do like to keep an eye out for other possibilities, for fAegon could be the real deal, and this whole thing is a misdirect for some minor character who is actually the fake dragon.
I don’t lean one way or the other yet, but I have actually found I don’t really care what happens, in the sense that I don’t think it will ruin my enjoyment if it ends up being Aegon (fake or not), Dany, etc – in some ways I’m just enjoying the journey.
I don’t get what you guys have against aegon (I refuse to call him fake until he has been proven as fake). I just get the feeling he may well become one of my favourites. I can’t remember the full prophecy off hand but what if mummer’s dragon is simply the dragon backed by the mummer – ie they are on other sides of the dance for dragons so beware of him? Did the the prophicy say the mummer’s dragon is fake?
Aegon may be a nice guy, but he is doomed. Attacking Westeros without dragons was a fatal mistake — there was a lot of foreshadowing about that. He will have some luck at first (like Robb), but then he will face Dany and her dragons and he will die.
@221: A possible factor may be readers getting tired of faked deaths and the improbability of this one. I feel like the kid’s success or failure will have more to do with luck, relative assets/liabilities and decisions than parentage. Prophecy schmophecy.
@219: Brown Ben definitely appears in ADWD, mostly in Tyrion’s vicinity.
@198: HAHAHA!
Oh, good insights from Leigh today! And nope, yes we get one more POV that touches on Bri, but still don’t know how the hell that plays out.
Damn you GRRM!
Could he give us that POV while we wait on him to finish WoW or write 4 more short stories? sigh….
@@@@@ 224
Have you read ADWD? We get an idea of what her choice was.
@225: The only thing I remember is Jamie goes off after getting Bri’s letter. To meet with Bri. I don’t remember seeing anything else. They haven’t meet back up yet.
So yes, she’s not dead yet.
What’s the deal with Alayna’s kiss. I assumed it had to do with the Hound, but its been too long since I read the books.
@227: It is related to the Hound.
He threated to take more than a kiss from Sansa. But he DOES NOT kiss her.
Yet in this chapter she ‘remembers’ one. Some people on this thread call it the ‘un-kiss.’ But most take it as an example of how Sansa is miss-remembering history. Thus supporting her strange mindset / warping by Peter.
No they meet, she tells him she found Sansa so he goes with her.
I forgot they wanted Brienne to kill him, I thought she was supposed to bring him back. Which is what I imagine she’s doing anyway, trying to plead for clemency and have him state that.
The only letter he gets is Cersei’s, IIRC
Brienne is the one that appears and asks Jaime to come with her. He even thinks how changed Brienne is, like she had passed through hell (and she kind of had).
Regarding Sansa’s kiss, she thinks the Hound kissed her at the end of the battle of the Blackwater (when he came to offer to take her away from the city), but that never happened in the original ACOK chapter. She starts remembering this as happening in ASOS and AFFC for who knows what reasons (but this seems important, according to GRRM’s interviews).
The idea on the main thread that unCat might keep Pod as a hostage is an interesting one. It will make it more difficult for him to rescue Brienne/ Jamie – which he has to do, otherwise why is he hanging around?
Aegon is definitely Martin’s stand in for Perkin Warbeck who was raised by Yorkists as the True King of England as Richard Duke of York, son of Edward IV and one of the Princes in the Tower. It will be interesting to see if Aegon is the historical Faux Prince or if he is Philippa Gregory’s from the “White Queen” who in her fictional account was replaced by his Mother with a commoner while they were hiding in Westminster Abbey as she did not trust Richard III.
Interesting, I didn’t think the Hound actually kissed her, but then second guessed my own memory of what I’d read when I read that line.
I didn’t see the GRRM interview. I wonder if the author also forgot, and had to retcon the whole thing. I’ve seen other authors forget plenty of stuff they wrote in earlier books. I prefer the retcon over ignoring the continuity problems completely. I’ve watched Orson Scott Card do it both ways.
@226 Braid_Tug
Brienne actually meets Jaime face to face after he managed the surrender of Raventree. She tells him that she found Sansa being held by the Hound and that he is needed to save her. We know that she is alive and telling a lie here.
@233 – No, it’s total fabrication in Sansa’s mind. Sansa is still a hopeless romantic, and the Hound saved her from being gangraped and is actually more honorable than all the handsome knights she dreams of, so she sort-of halfway grows up, in that she now has some romantic thoughts about him despite his scarred face, yet she still succumbs to childlike fancy and constructs a fake kiss in her memory, because it’s more romantic (more like something out of the stories she loves). There are some similarities between Sansa and Arianne in the regard.
*creeps in and posts meta*
http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/95952465682/i-just-read-the-part-where-sansa-mentions-her-kiss-with
*creeps out*
@236, That’s a spot on analysis, IMO, that’s how I’ve always seen Sansa’s adaptive memories.
Perhaps finally figuring out she’s responsible for the murder of Robert Arryn will be what gets her to start trusting herself.
@233
GRRM said it wasn’t a mistake and basically said that part of the reason it is there is to show that Sansa is an unreliable narrator.
On the topic of Sansa endgames, if he weren’t so doomed she’d be a good match with the Fake Aegon, dynasty-rebuilding-wise.
I personally see her endgame as competing with Margery for times widowed, ultimately taking hold of every bit of power Petyr’s setting her up for and more, disposing of Petyr, and ruling either a mega-house or the kingdom itself (possibly as regent or co-regent for Dany’s poor orphan prince; Sansa and Jon would complement each other’s skills quite nicely in the co-regenting game)
Will Leigh turn cartwheels over Cersei’s downfall…or be overwhelmed by dismay at the rapid rise of a(nother) militant theocracy? Or both? Find out this week!
Do any of you wonder that the sheer number of posts and conversations going on in the main thread is a spoiler in itself?
We are so free to talk about some of these story arcs because we don’t revisit them in ADwD. Don’t get me wrong, I’m enjoying them. Just starting to wonder since so little is now flagged as a spoiler.
And since every click bate article about WoW ends up being GRRM saying “I don’t know.” I’m thinking Leigh’s Read might go on a break while we all wait on him.
Good point. The converse of the Sherlock Holmes dog that surprisingly does not bark.
We do get the Tyrion side of things in his ADWD arc which certainly could make some people less likely to see a Tyrion-Sansa long term relationship as being a good thing – although I see a strong Tyrion in WoW and ADOS making up for that. We don’t know where Sansa is going, other than that I’m betting big bucks she’s be the downfall of LF by story end.
Not to natter on but I see at least two Sansa arcs that will be reversed going forward. One – she has her AGOT vision in her head of a true price/knight to marry and live happily ever after. I see her falling for Tyrion by the end of the story and subverting that vision. Two – the AGOT vision that she will be a passive wife and helpmate to her ruling spouse. I believe she’ll become an increasively active player of the game of thrones and be in position to rule (either all of Westeros or a portion thereof) by the end of the tale.
@241: My thoughts exactly! I wondered if I were overreacting, as a follower of Mark Does Stuff, which has the world’s strictest spoiler policy. And it seemed too late for me to do anything about the heavy comment flow for that post. But take note, people! In Leigh’s presence, it is spoilery to speculate about future events contingent on something that we know, and she doesn’t yet know, has/hasn’t happened (e.g. the fact that Tyrion and Sansa are still alive and potentially marriageable by the end of ADWD).
(e.g. the fact that Tyrion and Sansa are still alive and potentially marriageable by the end of ADWD).
But that’s only those who’ve read ahead who see the current discussion, as being about the fact that they are both still alive.
At the moment, they both are still alive! So it’s fair game to talk about them as if they are still alive, and not read anything further into it.
There’s some stuff, talking about the ways in which Tyrion needs to grow, but that isn’t a confirmation one way or another that he does or he doesn’t. Some of us KNOW that Tyrion doesn’t grow much in ADWD, which is why it seems spoilery to discuss the fact that he does need to grow, because we know we’re not getting that growth, but to a first time reader there is nothing in that discussion that indicates it, so I think it’s clear.
The closest thing to what could be considered a spoiler, IMO, is the continued talk of Sandor as a worthy potential mate for Sansa, which is ironic, because that talk is all based on speculation that he’s alive, which we’ve not got confirmation on, but first time readers might think we have!
I try to write in the main thread based on what Leigh herself has written. While she hasn’t caught some things (like R+L=J, for example), she has caught some things that are often not caught by first-time readers, like the fact that Varys and Illyrio were seen by Arya, which she didn’t write at the time but later wrote in her commentary. The big example now is Sandor. How can it be a spoiler to comment on Sandor being alive when Leigh herself believes that he is the Gravedigger, and none of us know any more than she does? To share in speculation by Leigh can’t be a spoiler.
As for the potential Sansa-Tyrion future, I think it’s totally safe to discuss as long as you don’t mention specific events from later books. If you just mention that they are married, and speculate on the feasability of that marriage being consummated and how appropriate it might be from each of their desires, and from a storytelling view, then I don’t see a problem.
The big chapter that I foresee problems with the spoilery commentary is the last chapter in the book, where Leigh may miss Alleras=Sarella and Pate=The Alchemist=Jaqen H’ghar. I’m hoping she catches the Pate thing, but since she didn’t realize who the Alchemist was, I’m not sure she’ll realize that he was Jaqen.
@242-45: Okay. Not the only one, but agree with points made.
@245: Well she recapped the FfC first on Jan. 30, 2014.
So, it has been less than a year. But a number of things have happend since she read of Pate’s death.
Also, everyone send her and her family some thoughts. Her grandfather died on Friday.
She posted the news on her FB page.
http://theadvocate.com/sports/10257473-32/warren-perkins-former-tulane-star
Hmmm. I don’t know if Leigh will take this future-event speculation that way, though. I’m attuned to Mark’s extreme rules, but it sounds like I’m not the only one here to err on the side of caution.
Looking at Aeryl’s comment in 15 on today (Sept 18)’s post – I always sort of assumed that Dany was given some sort of grounding in the faith of the Seven while being shuffled around.
That said, I don’t think things look too good for the Mother, Father, Crone, etc. – of all the various religions, it’s the only one that hasn’t shown any magic or supernatural evidence of “realness”. Which could be an issue when the dragons come home to roost.
Regarding Tyrion and who he ends up with in the endgame, I think he’ll end with Penny. Tyrion has moaned a lot about not having a woman like him for what he is. He has been traumatized by the Tysha event, and has had relationships only with whores ever since then. Then, out of nowhere, comes a woman that actually likes him for what he is, and when he has nothing at all. He’s uglier than he has ever been, having lost a nose at the battle of blackwater. He’s not a lord anymore. He’s not rich anymore. And a woman actually has romantic feelings for him, when he’s a slave and all. That he has not noticed it shows how much his character has to grow. I think Penny has a lot to offer Tyrion emotionally.
Also, putting Penny, a commoner dwarf, besides him as lady of Casterly Rock, would make Tywin roll in his grave. I think Tyrion would enjoy that thought.
@249
But he doesn’t enjoy the thought of being with Penny. I’ve heard about one of the Tyrion chapters in TWOW, and he reacts to her trying to get intimate with pure black rage. I’m wondering if GRRM is trying to do the long con on subverting a common trope: That the likeable “protagonist” maintains their optimism and integrity when mountains of crap is continually rained down on them.
@248: I believe you are right. I think Dany was given an education on the cultures of Westeros. But she has no real practice or investment in the Seven Faith.
@248, 251, I disagree, because it seems that Viserys wasn’t real concerned about Dany needing to have that kind of grounding.
He never envisioned that she would be the one carrying the Targ banner back to Westeros. He viewed her as his breeding mare for when he regained the throne, as he was unaware of the deal with Dorne, and then as a breeding mare to be traded for an army. What did some foreign ruler care for a religion that appears to be confined to Westeros?
The KG who was with them might have cared enough to teach her about her own country, but he died when Dany was young.
Learning Valyrian is one thing, it’s considered an integral part of the Targ identity, but I don’t see Viserys caring about the Faith one way or another.
I don’t think he would have cared either, especially given the precendent that their incest was more or less tolerated in the Targaryens, even though it seems to be against the Faith of the 7. So I’m not sure how much it would have mattered in the long run if they were super devout as long as they let others do what they want. Granted, now that the Church Militant has more power, maybe they’d get more resistance, but still, dragons.
I’d like Penny to find someone nice, but it sounds like Tyrion wouldn’t be best. When thinking up crack pairings, I’ve put her with Willas Tyrell — gentle, physically disadvantaged, loves animals, lives in a beautiful place of peace and prosperity (until now)…sadly, not gonna happen.
@252 Aeryl- I agree with your point about Viserys not caring much about the Faith of the Seven (or about anything much, except his own rightful position and how he has been wronged), but one small correction:
her about her own country, but he died when Dany was young.”
“The KG who was with them might have cared enough to TEACH
It was not a member of the KG. Ser William Darry, the Master-at-arms of the Red Keep, was the champion who smuggled young Dany and Viserys from Dragonstone and raised them through her early childhood before dying, and he was the one who signed the agreement with Dorne for Viserys to be betrothed to Arianne (which Doran is now trying to adapt to Dany and Quentyn, with disastrous results).
@255, Huh, I thought Darry was a KG, because I seem to recall a discussion about why he was there, when the other KG were at the TOJ.
@256
There is a Darry member of the Kingsguard, but there was also a member of Darry that was the Targs Master of Arms.
@@@@@ 256
I don’t have my book with me, I let someone from work who is a show only fan borrow it, but the conversation with Ned and the KG at the ToJ went something like this:
Ned: I thought you would be with Ser William Darry at Dragonstone guarding prince Viserys.
KG: Ser William is a good man but not of the Kingsguard.
It is one of the best indications that Jon is the legitimate heir of Rhaegar because if Viserys was heir then why were there no KG with him?
@257, 258
Thanks!
In re scaredicat’s comment, isn’t it established yet that Cersei goaded Jaime into the KG, and Aerys jumped at the chance to deprive Tywin of his heir? I can’t remember if that’s been revealed yet for certain, and I didn’t want to point it out that yes KG appointments were absolutely used as a weapon.
Willem’s brother Jonothor was in the KG and died in the Battle of the Trident. (So Spake Martin)
Darry was one of those ancient houses that was eradicated during Robert’s rebellion. They were firm supporters of Aerys, as was demonstated when Tyrion showed Jaime the hidden portraits of all the kings that were taken off the wall when Robert visited. The last two men died during the War of the Five Kings, but some female descendants still exist (which is why Kevan arranged for Lancel to marry Gatehouse Ami, who is part Darry through her mother Mariya Frey, nee Darry). It gets complicated, so you can see their family tree here:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Darry
Aww, in the main thread there’s all these calls to “take it to the spoiler thread” but here I am and no one has shouted “CLEGANEBOWL” yet…how disappointing.
Do you think it would be ok to shout “CLEGANEBOWL” in the main thread? It’s just so much fun. Try it!
Some thoughts:
– I’d be very surprised if R+L=J turns out to be false because there’s so many clues that foreshadow it. I also believe that Jon Snow could be both Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised.
When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.
Of the 3 Kingsguard killed at the Tower of Joy, one was Arthur Dayne and another was Gerold Hightower. House Dayne’s sigil contains a sword and a falling star (when the red star bleeds). House Hightower’s Words are “We Light The Way” (darkness gathers). Shortly after their deaths, Jon Snow was born, his mother Lyanna (Ice) and his father Rhaegar (Fire). Rhaegar, I assume, was killed around this time (when fire is extinguished, you get smoke) and Lyanna died in childbirth (salt in her tears, salt melts ice).
Also, Jon is the prince who was literally promised: Promise me, Ned…
– Tyrion is described as having golden hair (Viserion), with one green eye (Rhaegal) and one black eye (Drogon).
– Ghost has white fur (Ice) and red eyes (Fire).
I believe Lyssa is the knight of the laughing tree. I’m betting she was in her armor defending the tower of joy and was distracted when she saw Ned and was struck down. The bed of blood is not from cheildbirth but from the sword.
@263, I think that’s reading a bit too much, I think it will be Jon’s rebirth on the pyre that will lead to the prophecy.
Red Star Bleeds, the comet when the dragons came
Darkness gathers, duh, The Wall
Amidst smoke and salt, well the smoke indicates a fire, and the Ironborn aren’t too far away…
@265
If we really want to look into this “rebirth” idea, well said prophecy may have already come to fruition when Jon was stabbed By Bowen Marsh and company. We find three things that are present in the stabbing that are mentioned in the Azhor Ahai/Prince that was promised second coming:
Salt
Smoke
A bleeding star
When tears are mentioned in this story, such as when Arya cries after Ned is executed, they are often said to go with salt. “On her lips the salt taste of tears”. Marsh cries as well during the moment he stabs Jon, declaring “For the Watch”. The wounds he received are mentioned to have steam rising from them, perhaps representing the smoke in this dual prophecy.
The last symbol that is there actually is a bleeding star, something we hear about from that maester Marwyn by the end of AFFC, but it is invoked as a part of TPTWP prophecy (Perhaps AA and TPTWP are separate or linked I don’t know). What the use plum mentioned about Dayne being a bleeding star is interesting because it is a little similar. That idiot knight that attacked the giant, Ser Patrek of Kings Mountain, actually uses stars as his sigil. He’s being held above everyone’s heads when everything starts to go down and there is blood smeared on his star adorned cape.
I can’t remember all the details, but I am of the opinion that Azor Ahai and TPTWP are the same person.
I’m in the Jon as AA, Dany as PTWP camp.
@268 Melisandre uses AA and TPTWP interchangeably, so I’m pretty sure there is only one prophecied hero, not two. Could be wrong, as we’ve only heard scraps of stories concerning AA and TPTWP, but Mel at least seems to believe they are both Stannis, and GRRM appears to have let slip that they’re the same, as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIe0Q3PgcOw
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/19088i/the_prince_that_was_promised_and_azor_ahai/
@MDNY – I only read the reddit – can’t look at the video now – but the reddit is not convincing.
My thought all along is that GRRM was teeing up people to believe that the two prophecies overlapped in a single hero (i.e., Dany, as discussed by Maester Aemon in AFFC) but that he was pulling a clever authorial con in making the two separate, with one of them being his hidden Targ, Jon.) GRRM acknowledging that Mel thought the two overlap is not the same as GRRM speaking ex cathetdra as voice of God confirming that he intended that the two overlap.
Of course, the video (which I haven’t seen) could blow my analysis out of the water…..
@270 A lot is being made of the video, but it actually only has one relevant line. It’s just an HBO promo in which GRRM makes one statement basically saying that Mel is looking for , and believes she has found, TPTWP- which to me does mean that AA and TPTWP are the same thing, even in GRRM’s mind, since we already know that Mel believes Stannis is AA reborn. Basically, it’s just another example of him using the two terms interchangeably (not just Mel, but GRRM himself).
Which Pate is this? I must have missed it because I didn’t pick up on it at all…! Leigh notices SO MUCH MORE than I do when I read.
Pate is actually Jaqen H’gar, the faceless assassin Arya met in ACOK. Or at least it’s a faceless assassin, since he kills Pate, the apprentice, at the prologue, and assumes his identity. Most fans think it’s Jaqen, due to law of conservation of characters.
A pity Leigh didn’t pick up on this. A pity that Leigh hasn’t made any posts regarding feminism, Daenerys and the fact that she is seen by many to be the prophesied heroine. Not many series that have a prophesied person that’s going to save the world have that person be a woman, and she has criticized Wheel of Time for that, so I always wondered what her opinion would be regarding A Song of Ice and Fire and how it dealt with that question.
Where would we bring to attention spoilers like the #10 post in today’s read?
Just flag the comment and one of the moderators will white out the spoilery part. Which brings me to my question: exactly which part is spoilery and should be whited out? Not all of us moderators are 100% caught up on the books :)
Edit: not to worry, one of my wonderful colleagues (who is better versed in ASOIAF spoilers) already took care of it.
@274: Comment #10 has already been flagged. Mods will handle it. Leigh doesn’t read the comments for several day after the posts, because of the spoiler possibly. If at all currently.
@273: Don’t forget, she’s been dealing with the death of her grandfather, and helping her grandmother sort the estate for several weeks. Not to mention the pre-death matters. So attention span do be split right now. She’ll clue in and have something to say before the end, I am sure.
@272: It took this thread to clue me in. I knew the other Pate was dead, but I didn’t realize who had taken his place for a long time. But I’m really not surprised she didn’t clue it right off. Points to her for going “wait, I know that name, it should matter!”
Something I just realized about The Faceless Man/Pate and the prologue with the Alchemist:
The Alchemist presumably uses a posioned coin to take the real Pate out in the prologue for AFFC – which is exactly what Arya does in ADWD, when she’s asked to assassinate someone in Braavos and is given a new face to do it.
Can we from that fact draw any conclusions about what the Faceless Man is up to in Oldtown? We know that, as a group, they have a connection to Valyria, and we know that Arya spends an awful lot of time collecting information in Braavos. But… what is he doing (presumably) spying on Marwyn/the maesters?
Forgive me if this is common knowledge/obvious. Just finished reading ADWD three or four days ago. Read the entire series in a span of about… 7 months? So I’m not caught up on all the theories yet.
@277
Pate (classic) gave the alchemist a key he thought was a master key to the Citadel, so Alchemist/NewPate fusion probably felt he didn’t need further use for him. Truth be told, there might, and I put emphasis on might , be an indication that Pate (classic) did the classic idiot bungle and gave him the wrong key. It would explain why this man is still there pretending to be a pate of the millions of Pate’s of Westeros.
Besides that, it shows that Arya and this Faceless Man have similiar ideas.
@277 – The best explanation I’ve seen is that he’s looking for the last known copy of a book on dragons that Tyrion mentions in DWD. It’s also hinted that Doran Martell has a copy – it’s one of the books that Arianne starts reading, then gets bored with it.
The book likely includes information on how to kill dragons (which is consistent with Marwyn’s statement that the Maesters killed the previous generation of dragons).
Wow, the closer we get to caught up, the more the spoilers fly.
Yeah, there’s a tsunami of spoilers today, and I’m not going to try judging which ones are unacceptable.
Alleras is either Sarella or the reddest of red herrings. If she is, her studies could be somehow related to the magic/dragon/prophesy business — and/or she might simply want to be a maester for as long as her disguise holds. We know she hungers for knowledge, and it seems to be the only scholarly profession in the Seven Kingdoms. I’d want to do the same if sent to Westeros (assuming the Drowned God’s clergy doesn’t accept women, of course).
Until the Fandom pointed it out, I’d never thought of Alleras/Sarella, or even of Pate’s face now being used by his killer. When he seemingly “reappeared” here, I went “WHAAAT?! He can’t be alive! He was a Prologue POV! How is it…I give up.”
So ends AFFC, a time of relative peace in a relatively temperate climate. I still adore it, but can understand why Leigh spent less time than usual flipping out. ADWD will bounce us like a tennis ball between torrid and frigid zones, with an incessant flow of unprecedented natural and human-caused atrocities. Whee!
@@@@@ IndependentGeorge from the main thread, re: whether certain Arya chapters would play better off the end of AFFC or ADWD.
I think that for thematic reasons those chapters go well where they are (despite the “it’s snowing in the riverlands” one going chronologically with Jaime at the end of AFFC.)
AFFC in my opinion is largely about the cost of war, whereas ADWD is more about the price of peace, with Jaime’s last chapter being the pivot point.
I think Arya chafing at the way her training oposes her clinging to her old life and therefore boxes in her attempts at maintaining a blood-feud-esque mindset of vendetta jives nicely against this. Because in the end, the price of peace is sometimes dropping the blood feud in favor of the role that the establishment slots you into, even if it’s “your turn” for vengeance. (The fact that “the establishment” in this case is in the assassination business and she’s literally being remade into a new role with a new face I think only makes it more pointed.)
I think this plays nicely off Jon’s constant struggle with his values from being rasied as a Stark getting in the way of how he approaches his role in the instutition of the Wall. The Stannis situation, the Boltons, and the overtures from King’s Landing are all complicated by Jon’s family history, his concern for Arya, his desire for justice.
Similarly, I think Arya’s last couple chapters also play well with Dany’s attempts at forging a peace through a cold, institutional marriage in Meereen.
In the end, all three refuse or fail in some way to pay the price. Arya clings to her secret warging and to Nymeria and the glimpses of Westeros she provides (and as we find out in the most recent TWoW sample chapter, keeps her vendetta alive even as she pretends to “play the part” assigned her). Jon balks at sending even the most form letter of assurances to Kings Landing, outright helps Stannis, and fails to adequately explain his gambit re: the Pink Letter, if he’s got an explanation at all. And Dany–well, dragons plant no trees.
@278, @279
That’s great info. I’d forgotten about the books in the tower, and until seeing Leigh’s re-read, I hadn’t thought very much about what the Maesters had to do with the dragons dying out. Wheels within wheels…
I’m guessing the Faceless Men might have some interest in making sure the dragons stay alive, but I can’t decide why. Aren’t they supposed to be interest-less in a certain way? I need to go back over the Arya chapters from ADWD and shore up my understanding of how they operate as a group, deciding who dies and who doesn’t. I know there was a long-ish discussion about that at some point.
Anyway, thought it was interesting that the same assassination technique was applied worlds apart in two different books – it’s a clever and unique way to go about things… are we certain of WHEN the prologue takes place? There’s ZERO chance it’s Arya in Oldtown, right?
@283
I seem to recall that the prologue takes place before news of Tywin’s death has reached Old Town, so it has to be pretty early. (Unfortunately I do not have the books right now as I lent them out.) Plus, about-to-be-Pate is wearing exactly the same clothes no-longer-Jaquen was wearing when he left Arya.
I’d think the faceless men want to be rid of dragons. Weren’t they originally the slaves of Valyrian overlords (who owned dragons). Maybe they want to ‘set free’ the enslaved dragons. I’d guess ‘Pate’ was gathering information, or maybe he was going to kill Marwyn but had to be very sneaky since Marwyn is a seer, or maybe Marwyn actually hired him and he’s gonna kill a few ‘grey sheep’ now?
Wouldn’t it be nice if Martin would tell us how it all ends and fits together? ;)
@@@@@ 283, 384 Also, Arya met Sam in Braavos in the middle of AFFC. She was still Cat of the Canals at that time. She still had to pass through the blind test in ADWD and other stuff she does in the preview chapters of TWOW. A minor spoiler here, but at the end of the first chapter of Arya in TWOW she’s still in Braavos. And amongst the Westerosi that appear in that chapter there’s Tommen’s Master of Coin, Harys Swift, who still was in King’s Landing at the end of ADWD, but was preparing his voyage to Braavos. So, I think we can safely say that unless Arya has mastered time travel or teleportation, she can’t be in Oldtown at that time as Sam arrives there, since she was still training in Braavos.
I’m putting this here rather then the main discussion as it kind of delves into spoilers for the recent projects that GRRM produced, and Leigh has not read them yet.
TPatQ read like a bunch of bad history. By that I mean that the Maester that writes the history of the conflict does too much embellishment, or shows who he thinks is right and who does not. It reminds me of Shakespeare to an extent on how he framed his plays like Macbeth. Royals and nobles are treated in a certain light that is/was indicative to their status at the time, which they were his employers and he was not impartial to the way their ancestors or a monarchy was portrayed.
Leigh just commented on last week’s section: no post today, Part 1 of TMK next week!
noooooooooo!!!!!!!!
#273: The reason fans think the FM in Oldtown is Jaqen is not the law of conservation of characters. It’s the fact that the description of the Alchemist is the same as the description of Jaqen after he changed his face in ACOK.
Arya IX, ACOK
Prologue, AFFC
@3:
Incorrect. Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Brienne and Cersei are in AFFC.
@291 Yes, but Tyion and Jon seem to be her 2 favorites, along with Arya who only has 2 chapters. And I don’t think Cersei is ANYONE’s favorite character. Personally, I don’t like Sansa much, either, though I know fandom is split on that one.
@292: I think her like for Tyrion is going to change when she gets to him in the next book. He becomes much more like his father in many respects.
@292: The other poster said BEST characters, not most likable or favorite characters. Cersei is a great character, one of the best in the series IMO.
(And actually, there are people who name her as their favorite character. I’m not one of them, but Tumblr is full of them.)
@293: I wouldn’t say that he becomes more like Tywin. Tywin was cold, calculated and ruthless. Tyrion doesn’t become more calculated and ruthless in ADWD, he becomes a more obnoxious, more resentful, self-loathing, misogynistic and misanthropic version of himself.
@293, That one scene in the whorehouse wiped a lot of goodwill toward Tyrion I had, and I already had a lot of problems with him after what he did to Shae.
#295: It would be hard for me to summarize what I mean, but there was an analysis done in the Meereeness Blot essays about Tyrion.
In the last chapter review, Leigh hoped nobody would put poison in Dany’s porridge. The porridge isn’t what she needs to worry about…
Hi everyone. This is my first time commenting on this site, and I was just wondering, what events in ADWD are you most looking forward to Leigh reviewing?
The Victarion and early Theon chapters, because horrified outrage loves company and I love watching her make up creative epithets. I’m also eager to learn what she’ll think of Melisandre’s controversial POV, but fear she’ll headdesk a lot over Cersei’s fate and the hellhole Dany’s stuck in.
@299: There is going to probably be book hurling moments when she comes to Jon’s last chapter in that book. Honestly, I am looking forward to the Bran summaries the most I think. While not a great deal happened with his journey his chapters were amongst the most interesting for me in that book for the insight it offered into Martin’s world.
@300: I think there is a legitimate worry when people wonder if the author of this blog actually enjoys the story. Considering that the separation of time that she experiences between each chapter I am guessing that the negative feeling lasts longer if she cannot see the conclusion. That said, I agree that much hilarity will come when she first witnesses “Reek” and the continuation of Victarion.
Dany’s first dragon-ride ranks up there. The resolution of Quentyn’s arc. Dany and Tyrion in the same place. And, certainly, the final (?) Jon chapter.
I’m interested what she will say about Qarl the maid.
@299 Matt9987- Welcome! It seems that like myself and many (most?) readers, Leigh counts Tyrion among her favorite characters. I’m wondering what she’ll think of his somewhat boring storyline as it progresses. I personally love him not just as a character, but I have loved his chapters the most in the first 3 books, and I thought they lost steam later in ADWD. Of course, the Reek chapters will surely have some amazing Leigh-isms, as will the book throwing and excessive cursing when Jon gets stabbed in the end (though I don’t THINK it will be as dramatic as her repeated cursing after the Red Wedding, which was EPIC.)
I also like Bran’s chapters. They’re not very action-packed, but I really liked learning about the Children of the Forest and the 3-eyed crow (I wonder if she’ll figure out who he is, having just read The Mystery Knight, where Bloodraven is a major character?)
Leigh will definitely lose her shit in the Cersei walk of shame- that chapter is disturbing, and I hope Leigh doesn’t take it so badly that she starts to empathize with Cersei.
And of course, like most GRRM books, it ends on a huge note, when we get Kevan’s POV and find out more about Varys’ plots and maneuvers, Pycelle and Kevan die, and winter finally arrives.
On the whole, while there are problems with both AFFC and ADWD, I personally liked ADWD more than AFFC, and I definitely am looking forward to Leigh’s reactions to quite a number of chapters.
If anyone wants a thorough review of The Mystery Knight before we start discussing it with Leigh, the Podcast of Ice and Fire (not UNspoiled, but the big famous racy one) devoted an especially enjoyable episode to saucily dissecting and debating it.
It’s Episode 99 on the downloads page: http://podcastoficeandfire.com/download-links/
General commentary gives way to starting-at-the-beginning dissection after about 10 minutes. Contains ADWD spoilers and inside jokes.
@303: Oh right, the ‘no means yes’ scene. That’ll be interesting.
@304: IIRC, she called Old Walder at least 6 names in the Red Wedding review and 5 more in the following month or so, most of them never seen before.
@301, 304: Bran chapters get criticized a lot, but I really like the ADWD ones, too, especially once they get underground.
#303, 305: I’m not sure what’s so notable about Qarl and Asha enjoying a little bit of roleplay in their sex life.
@306: I’m seen readers object more to the way it was written as a perhaps-unnecessary fakeout, being in Asha’s mind but not showing her feelings during much of the scene. The opinion goes: We freak out, thinking a valued character is getting raped onscreen — haha nope, it’s consensual and thus sexy! It bothered me less than a lot of things in ADWD, but I’m eager to see what Leigh will make of it.
Definitely looking forward to Leigh’s reaction when Dany takes off on Drogon for the first time. And, of course, to Jon’s stabbing.
Cersei’s walk of shame will also be interesting. Leigh is practically the perfect reader for that scene. I’m still not sure what I think of it, honestly, as I fluctuate between feeling bad for Cersei (hard for me to do, as she’s my least favorite character, I think, the one I love to hate the most at this point in time) and thinking it went far too easily for her. That sounds cruel even as a type it, but by the end of that chapter I expected her to be altogether removed from the game.
I’m also interested to see what she thinks of Young Griff and the much maligned Quentyn Martell quest. I really loved ADWD and have fewer complaints about it than many seem to have, but the Martell conclusion is something that I imagine Leigh will furrow her brow at. I had to step back and read the Blot blog before I could wrap my head around it.
I’m excited for The Mystery Knight reading too. I enjoyed that one quite a lot.
Someone pointed me to a series of blog posts entitled the Great Northern Conspiracy that were pretty good. Theme is that the North and the Robb-favoring Riverlanders have decided to put Jon on throne as King of the North to effectuate Robb’s will, and that relatively coordinated activities are happening all over the map to achieve that goal. Conspirators (suprisingly) include Lady Dustin and Whoresbane Umber, despite their apparent sympathy for Bolton cause.
@309: Dustin (nee Ryswell) barks the loudly of her hatred for Ned, yet she does it in the earshot of one of the most unreliable and whipped POV characters yet. Theon/Reek is very likely to report everything back to his Bolton masters. A tactic that Roose seeminly does by feeding false information to Theon that will reach Ramsay’s ears, so it could be that she is hiding more then she reveals.
As for Hothor, we never see him at a point where he supposedly sympathises with the Bolton’s. Roose comes North with an army augmented by Frey soldiers, likely the very same men-at-arms that saw action in the massacre, and sons of Old Walder as they hold the Greatjon. It’s interesting that Lady Dustin says Hothor would tear out the Frey leader’s entrails if they didn’t hold his nephew captive. It is also interesting to note that Whoresbane almost became a maester, which factors into the “GNC” idea that he could send ravens to those outside the castle.
I like some of the theory pieces. People complaining about Manderly’s hour long trips outside to the privy where he might actually be meeting with fellow plotters. Manderly having a full set of minstrels back in White Harbor but not showing up with any at Winterfell – the assumption being he met Mance on the road and set his minstrels home so Mance would be needed. Express reminders from Lady Dustin that her men and Ryswell men were killed at the Red Wedding. Potential connections between UnCat and Greywater Watch (where Maege and another leader were heading to deliver Robb’s intentions about Jon taking over). Fun stuff.
Davos’s last two chapters should be interesting too. Leigh will probably correctly guess that Manderly won’t execute Davos, but the court scene when one of the Freys sais that it was Robb who started the massacre at the Red Wedding, and then eveyone is like “oh yes, he totally deserved to die” is still quite infuriating. And the later reveal is one of the more exciting moments of the series.
One thing to keep in mind is that there also could be a number of conspiracies working independantly of eachother, but we cannot deny that something is going on.
This is the blog you found right? The author is known as Yeade who did this summary/compilation from a bunch of users that started (I think it started) on these forums by a user called Apple Martini. To be fair, I am not 100% certain that she actually started the idea, but I do remember taking part in those discussions a couple years back. One of the bits that people ended up noticing was The Winterfell Huis Clos as something of a refrencing source (before the GNC inception or after is also something I don’t remember). That said the Huis Clos goes a bit more into Crakpot territory.
Minstral – different site (mine was hosted at fan sided) but linked to each of the essays in yours.
“The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done.”
One of my favourite moments in the series.
@315- I grew to really love Wyman Manderly in ADWD. Like Sam, he’s dismissed because of his weight, but he has exhibited cunning and patience that no one expects from him, and a true devotion to House Stark that I find touching (even when it does involve making Freys eat their relatives unwittingly, which may be a TAD over the line but I’ll accept it as just desserts, heh, for any Frey or Bolton).
He ate them, too. That’s the part which cracked me up. It would’ve been even funnier if, when finally confronted about their whereabouts, he’d casually replied “Oh, I ate them. So did you.” Sadly, he’s not that suicidal.
I’ll be disappointed if, like me on a first-read, Leigh fails to realize the Frey Pie Trick. I want to know whether her aversion to cannibalism, which even prevented her from enjoyinng Hoat’s perfect fate, would overrule her vengefulness toward Freys.
@317 Aerona- I got the Frey pie on my first read, but it’s not stated outright so I don’t know if Leigh will catch it. Even though it cracked me up, too, I did find it a bit disturbing- well, quite disturbing that I was applauding forced familial cannibalism. Given Leigh’s anti-cannibalism stance-something for which I can’t really fault her- I don’t know if she’ll react with the same glee that we did when/if she realizes. But then again, after Ramsey’s horror show in Theon chapters, maybe the Frey pie won’t seem so sickening to her and she’ll accept it as justice on the ASOIAF scale.
The funny thing with the Frey Pie event is that Manderly actually goes through great effort to pull it off without actually breaking the sacred Guest Right. On that note though, feeding the Boltons and Freys the flesh of Jared, Symond, and FRhaegar probably stems from two sources. The obvious one being that Rat Cook tale, and the other being that Whylis Manderly was actually among those that were force fed Hoat’s remains.
@318: Considering the fact that the books really do describe nearly unimaginable cruelty it is possible that a reaction to Frey Pie would be seen as something approaching positive. It is not the first time that I have seen her change her tune, perhaps unconsciously, on some moral ideal. I first found this blog around the time Leigh read the Red Wedding and one of the things that I noted was that she despised the despicable nature of the incident, and thought that the murders Tywin organized should not have been carried out because the methods appeared to be too profane (explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand in battle than twelve at dinner?). She seemed to be drawing a line that murder can be evaluated in levels. One is more heinous then the other given the circumstance.
Yet, she seemed to have a different tune earlier. I don’t know which entry it was, but there was talk about “poison being a woman’s weapon” in which Leigh lambasted the idea and stated that murder was basically murder, there are no real hierarchies. Perhaps it is a testament to the effectiveness of GRRM as a writer that we can take stands on morality in this series and then we end up contradicting ourselves. Most of us found as much Joy in Joffrey’s death as he did when he was inflicting cruelty.
On a seperate, but linked, note…. I never got the idea that the Frey Pie event was meant to represent a form of justice. It looks much more like the Manderly Partiarch is aiming to achieve vengeance rather then a form of justice.
@317-18: I now cannot remember. When were we told the story of the Rat King vs. when Frey Pie happens? Because time lag could have a serious effect on if she clues to it or not.
Rat King is mid-AFoC, right?
But since there will be lots of cannibalism in the next book for her to start thinking it’s a theme, maybe her Jedi senses will hone in on the Frey Pie without remembering the Rat King.
We heard the Rat King story in ASOS when Bran and Co. were in the Nightfort. She connectedthe “breaking guest rights” bit to the recent Red Wedding (“Take that, WALDER, you giant poop splash!”) but has probably forgotten about it by now.
Frey Pie initially scandalized me, since I don’t want the whole Frey family killed for the sins of its patriarch. And I feel bad for the bereaved relatives — Rhaegar’s three young orphans and father, Symond’s widow and three children, and Jared’s four young grandchildren who had already lost their fathers. But I eventually warmed to it, since a) those three were obnoxious and b) with everyone killing people in this story, it’s nice when the meat isn’t wasted at least. *twisted-evil emoticon*
I’d call it vengeance instead of justice, though. Much of ASOIAF displays the difference, with justice being far rarer. There was a nice Boiled Leather Audio Hour episode on the subject a while ago.
since I don’t want the whole Frey family killed for the sins of its patriarch.
While I get that, that is truly the only punishment suitable for Walder Frey, is the extermination of his line. Killing him isn’t enough.
It absolutely is vengeance. Because this is a world without justice. This point has been driven home again and again.
*shrug* Your first point doesn’t change my weird feelings on the matter, so I agree to disagree again.
Oh I agree that it’s an injust punishment to the rest of the family, weighed against the fact the only thing Walder Frey’s ever cared about was his “legacy”, it’s the only thing you could take from him that would punish him. A 90+ year old man isn’t likely to bemoan the fact that he’s about to die, but that he has no more sons to inherit, that he’ll cry out to the gods over.
I agree that it does create a strange feeling. We are dealing with the whole “Sins of the father” issue. Yet, since most of the Frey’s are jerks, it does make them harder to care about. Maybe there is a nice guy Sam lost in the horde, but we have not meet him. So it is harder to care about faceless Frey corpse.
Thus the schadenfreude feelings for every loss Walder suffers. But I don’t think he will realize he is being punished until he’s down to less than 20 heirs. Since right now he has around 50+ (counting all three generations). And that is its own type of sad making.
We actually know of individual Freys that were close to Robb and purposely kept out of the loop due to Stark sympathies. I forget their names, but Cat explicitly remarks on their absence when they arrive at the Twins, and I believe Merritt mentions them in his internal monologue at the end of SOS.
While I think it highly likely that House Frey will be eradicated by the end of WOW, and that I’ll likely fist-pump when it happens, I also know consciously that it’s unjust for the entire family to get wiped out. Attainted and exiled, yes, but to obliterate the entire family line? That’s pretty horrific, even if I’m hypocritical about it.
Several of the Freys were sent away from the RW, thus may be safe from UnCat and the BWB. Olyvar was Robb’s squire, and Perwyn accompanied Cat when she treated with Renly and Stannis. Both of them were kept away from the RW, something Cat noted with some trepidation before the betrayal occured.
If any Freys deserve to live, I guess it would be those 2, and maybe some of the women, but for true karmic justice Walder has to witness the obliteration of his entire line before he croaks. That doesn’t necessarily mean it will happen, or that we should expect cosmic justice in ASOIAF, but for me the only satisfying end for Walder is the obliteration of his line. If that makes me a sadist, so be it. I don’t think all Freys deserve to die, yet I still want them to, oh well. However, House Frey isn’t the real problem, just Walder.
As for the Boltons, they need to be totally obliterated, their castle razed, and all their soldiers and followers sent to the Night’s Watch.
@327 – in terms of karmic payback, I actually suspect more Freys will die at the hands of other Freys than to UnCat, Stannis, or the winter.
And I thought the Frey Pies were awesome. “Perhaps it’s a mercy. Had he lived, he’d have grown up to be a Frey.” The fat man shoots a great game of pool.
@327: Yeah, Boltons are too disgusting even for human consumption. I’d feed Ramsay to his own hounds a la Weese, and…uh…I was going to say I’d dump Roose in a pool with a million leeches to drain his blood, but he’d probably enjoy it.
Old Walder is not the only Frey responsible for the Red Wedding. At the very least they all knew what was going to happen, and didn’t do anything to stop Walder. Most took part actively, even old useless Merret had a task for himself. All the Freys share the guilt to some extent. The only exceptions are 1) those few that remained loyal to the Starks and were sent away during the RW and 2) little children who didn’t know/understand what was going on.
I love how the fandom hates Dany and proclaims her an evil queen for crucifying 163 Meerenese slavers as punishment/retribution for their crucifiction of 163 slaves, while at the same time wishing for a complete genocidal obliteration of the entire extended Frey family. *sigh*
Yeah, technically I don’t know how many of those are the same people, but I’m sure many are, since both opinions are so popular, and I rarely see anyone speaking out against the “Frey genocide = awesome!” attitude.
I for one don’t proclaim her to be an evil queen. However, I might have called her a well-intentioned extremist on occasion, and I stand by that.
I would say that both Dany’s execution of Meereenese slavers and Manderly’s Frey pies are neither good nor evil, but “grey”.
A truly just thing in both cases would be to have a trial, determine who exactly gave orders to crucify children (or who exactly took active part in the Red Wedding) and only then have those people punished.
It is a recurring theme in ASOIAF when people pursue vengeance instead of justice and then pay the price.
Dany is definitely not an evil queen (yet), but she might become one. She got her superweapon and is now using it to “fix” the world, which is like if Frodo tried to use the power of the ring to do good stuff. At some point she realised the danger and chained her dragons, but at the end of ADWD they are on the loose once again.
Good or evil, rightful or not, I’d be nervous if I were a lowly citizen under a monarchy where the royal family’s words had anything to do with “Fire and Blood”.
#334: Would living under a monarchy where the royal family’s words were “Ours is the fury” or “Hear me roar” make you feel calmer?
@335 I’d feel great if my leaders’ words were “We do not sow”…
In the war of mottos, I think the Arryns win the contest, actually, though I’d probably want to live in Dorne.
Unless you are a hardcore stoner, I do not see how As High As Honor beats out Unbent Unbowed Unbroken
LOL…
In this context the Tully’s is the best, IMO. Unless you like skiing and the like, then Stark is for you.
From minor houses, I like House Wydman: “Right conquers might”.
And of course Robert Jordan, er, I mean House Jordayne: “Let it be written”.
Yep, House Wydman’s words are probably the most healthy message for the general public. Followed by House Hightower (“We Light the Way”), House Waxley (“Light in Darkness”) and the Tullys (“Family, Duty, Honor”)
House Lonmouth is the most awesome democracy-wise. “The Choice is Yours” Oh, yeah! Not exactly helpful words for a House in Westeros, though…
Other than that, House words are usually more on the “You’re drunk! Go away! No touching the I’m-in-charge stick for you!”-side of things…
I’d head toward “Growing strong” (Tyrell) and flee from
“Flayed men have no secrets”“Our blades are sharp” (Bolton).Which house was it whose motto was, “Though all men despise us”? Whoever that was, they need to hire a new PR firm, because that’s just plain awful.
@342, House Codd. I imagine they smell like fish, which may explain why they are despised. And its “Though all me DO despise us”
And wiki says they are descended from salt wives and thralls, which is why everyone on the Iron Islands hates them
That’s House Codd for you.
Not that other Houses are less of a PR nightmare. Even if they had PR agencies in Westeros, I don’t think any of them would be insane enough to take on such a job.
Well, maybe “Aerys PR – A subdivision of Fire&Blood enterprises”. But no one else…
@344 Randalator- Are you kidding? LF is a freakin PR macbine! That guy was born to be on Madison Avenue. Of course, he would then fleece all the Houses that hired him, but somehow everyone still thinks he’s on their side right up until he stabs them in the back.
@345 MDNY
I don’t disagree with you, but I have yet to see an actual business registration for Littlefinger & Daughter, PR Agency…
So was anybody hoping that Leigh would recognise the biggest event crasher in the history of Westeros, or at the least a mention to how much the Frey heir annoyed Dunk? Truthfully it would be nigh impossible to recognize Walder Frey here, but it is somewhat comical his role in bringing this wedding to fruition.
Anyone else get a Jacobean vibe from the Blackfyres?
(Speed, bonnie boat, like a
birddragon on the wing, onward the sailors cry! / Carry the lad that’s born to be king, over the sea toSkyeDragonstone)Does the Baelish family have “words”?
@348-349 – Outlander fan? Yeah, I can see the Jacobite connection.
@347 – Walder’s name gets dropped in the second half of the story, I think. I love that he caused his sister’s disgrace….
@346 – Aren’t they the ones who keep robocalling me every November? I hate those guys!
@351 Oddly enough, no, just a minor UK history nerd, though there’s a lot of Outlander going on in my household. The show’s version of the song drives me nuts, but the traditional version has been stuck in my head since the Scottish Independence vote.
@347, 351: Yes, I was disappointed that she didn’t realize Baby Walder’s identity. Unfortunately, AWOIAF says he isn’t mentioned by name in TMK, though Martin has confirmed he was there.
@350: House Baelish’s words appear to be unknown. I can probably think of some for them…
I’m more interested in speculation on what words Petyr would choose for his house. Is he the first Baelish to become a noble? Maybe his “house” doesn’t have words because they never rated them before. He could get to choose words, coat of arms, totem animal, colors, other stuff… or would he inherit some of them from the seat he was awarded?
@355 House Baelish already has a coat of arms- it’s the head of the Titan of Braavos. His great-grandfather came from Braavos as a sellsword, and his grandfather founded the house when he was knighted and took that coat of arms. No house words were ever stated in the books, however, so LF may still be able to make those up. Let’s pick one of LF’s quotes for now:
“I did warn you not to trust me, you know” seems appropriate to me.
He also uses the mockingbird as his own personal sigil, so maybe he would incorporate that into a new coat of arms, too.
Never Trust, Ever Succeed
I think House Baelish would be the first House in Westeros without words but the Trollface instead…
“Suck it, Varys!”
Oh! or maybe…
“Only Cat.”
From the show: “The Climb Is All There Is.”
From Stripes: Behind You Every Step of the Way
“If you’re not first, you’re last!”
Sigh…still not too much in TMK to talk about. Two weeks (hopefully) until Leigh starts ADWD and flipping-out resumes.
@363 Aerona- The thing is, I think that Bloodraven provides a LOT of stuff to talk about, but even though Leigh wrote about him during the second D+E story she hasn’t speculated on him once. Is she even going to realize that he was Plumm after Dunk meets him?
I’m hoping she at least remembers something about him when she meets the 3-eyed crow in ADWD, but I’m not holding my breath.
I just reread Mystery Knight and I’m surprised Leigh hasn’t figured out who John is at this point. She just seems to have gotten hung up on the ‘bastard’ statement, ignoring that Peake did support Daemon for the throne, so he can’t be that much against bastards regardless of his words. (And ofcourse, John himself is not a bastard.)
It is kind of funny that Peake makes this comment despite supporting someone whose claim comes from a legitimized bastard. John may not be a bastard, but his father was. Though, if he believes the Blackfyre propaganda (which may or may not be the truth), king Daeron was also a bastard. Still, at best, it would be a case of choosing between descendants of different bastards, legitimized or secret ones. But people can be pretty contradictory/hypocritical/selective when it comes to people they support politically.
@366: It really boils down to the man’s prejudice in those that he ultimately favors. If he truly believes that all the present Targaryen stock derives from some bastard source, well who is the real “Bastard” (or in this case the bastard in the negative sense)? Daemon could actually argue a somewhat stronger claim to the throne then even Daeron could through the female line. His mother was from a senior line; her father was Aegon the third, while Daeron comes from a more junior line through Aegon the third younger brother.
It certainly helps Peake that he subscribes to the medieval notion that “blood will tell”, so his line of thinking was probably “Daemon cannot be a bastard because we can all see him for what he is”.
…”the no-doubt monstrosity of A Dance With Dragons”…
You are so unprepared, Leigh Butler.
Reading through the new World of Ice and Fire. Really interesting stuff. For example, Lady Rohane from the Sworn Sword is Tywin Lannister’s Grandmother! Wow.
I also don’t see any Lannister marriage with Targs in either the Lannister or Targ family trees, so if Tyrion has any Targ blood (assuming that is needed to be a dragon rider) it would have to be as the direct illegimate child of Aerys.
@369 I love those family trees! So many little goodies. Like the Starks not being above a few incestuous marriages themselves; no brother-sister, but when there was an issue of succession after Cregan Stark, two uncles married their nieces. (Well, half-uncles / half-nieces, and fairly close in age, as far as I can tell.) Also, two marriages to Blackwoods just in the past couple hundred years.
Nice long section on Nymeria and her ten thousand ships. Lots of stuff on various Essos cultures I haven’t had gotten to yet. But most hilariously (although it would seriously take me out of the story if it appeared in the main books) the Tullys are muppets. Lord Grover, his grandson Lord Elmo, and Elmo’s son Lord Kermit.
I really hope my public library will eventually acquire that book.
Never thought I’d have reason to dislike Rohanne. Did she marry Jeyne Marbrand’s father, or Gerold Lannister?
What evidence supports the notion that Tyrion could be a Targ bastard? His mother was desired by Aerys, and a few Targs have been “deformed” in some way (the stillborn dragon babies, Shiera Seastar’s mismatched eyes), but anything else? Or do fans just want him to be a head of the dragon, since he’s such a major and favored character?
@371 She married Gerold Lannister. Must’ve been her sixth husband, right? (Or a higher number, I suppose.) They had four sons – twins Tion and Tywald – Tion married Ellyn Reyne – then Tytos, then a Jason, who was the father of Joanna and Stafford.
I think it’s a mix of wishful thinking, Tyrion’s fascination with dragons, and Aerys’s known interest in Joanna. No actual evidence, no. TWOIAF actually has a section where the maester author comments on “the scurrilous rumor” that Joanna had been Aerys’s paramour before marrying Tywin, and says it must obviously be false because proud Lord Tywin would never have married her then. Aerys did “take liberties with her person” during the bedding ceremony, and Queen Rhaella dismissed Lady Joanna from service as one of her ladies shortly afterwards. (IMO, that smacks of Rhaella wanting to protect her friend.) Joanna rarely visited King’s Landing after that.
But then again, one of those visits was in 272, and Tyrion was born in 273, so I guess the window is still there. During that visit, a drunk Aerys made such a nuisance of himself during dinner with his comments to Joanna, that Tywin tried to retire as hand the next day. Aerys refused to accept the resignation.
Gerold.
Re Tyrion, ADWD has such an emphasis on dragon blood as being critical to dragon riding, it would make sense for Tyrion to have some Targ blood.
@373: You mean that “emphasis” that Quentyn put on to his connection through lineage to the Targs and then got himself crisped? I think that is more of subversion than an affirmation that blood matters. Next to nothing is known about the taming process, nor what is required. What is known is that during the Dance (the civil war) there were three dragon riders that were produced that had dubious connections to the Targs. All three were commoners, and perhaps had no biological connection to any Targaryen.
Dany was surprised by Ben Plumm’s good relations with the Dragon, until he explained he had some Targ blood several generations back. Quentyn made his approach at the wrong time and in the wrong manner, so hard to tell whether blood would come through if he did it right. Princess and Queen story focused on big search for Targ bastards as possible dragon riders. Clear it is not impossible for a non-Targ to ride one but clearly implied to be easier.
Speaking of AWOIAF – Willam Stark looks almost certain to be the boy lord in that upcoming D&E story of she-wolves in Winterfell, given the timeline. Willam married a Melantha Blackwood. Aegon V married a Betha Blackwood (known as Black Betha), daughter of the Lord of Raventree Hall. If these two were sisters – and I don’t really see the Lord of Winterfell marrying a “lesser” Blackwood – then Rickard Stark and Aerys II were second cousins.
@376 – nice observation! Also probably cousins to Bloodraven as well (who was a Blackwood as well).
Speaking of Lady Rohane – so, she has four Lannister kids and then mysteriously disappears and is never seen again. Any theories on what happened there? Murdered by Ellen Reyne? Runs off with Dunk for a few months before heading to the Free Cities? I can’t imagine that inclusion of a mysterious disappearance is going to end up with a commonplace solution.
@371
Its a low probability theory, but there is considerable evidence backing it despite the naysayers. Just nothing remotely conclusive (nearly all evidence that could be used to support it can also have strong alternative explanations).
A non-exhaustive, fairly general, list would include:
– hair colour is quite un-Lannister (yellow gold) and very much like Targ (almost white – though carefully not described the way Targ hair usually is)
– eyes, with the only other heterochromatic character known being a Targaryen bastard, Shiera Seastar (Euron Crow’s Eye appears to suffer from a hyphaema rather than being born with two different eye colours)
– manifold dragon connections, including fascination, dreams, knowledge, asking for one as a pet as a child, wishing to burn Cersei and Tywin with dragonfire as a child etc etc
– maternal death, with 3 key characters all having had their mothers die birthing them (Jon, Dany, Tyrion) and the other two are Targaryens (1 secretly as yet) (not that although childbirth is a common cause of death, no notable characters other than these three actually ‘killed their mothers’ so to speak.
– complex relationship with Tywin and various things said/alluded to by Tywin
– the Tywin/Joanna thing
– many references to Tyrion as big as a king, or casting the shadow of a king, or similar
– odd seemingly natural connection with Jon
– possible parallel of Jaime killing Tyrion’s father, and Tyrion killing Jaime’s father
– Moqorro’s dream of many dragons, with Tyrion among them (inclusive or exclusive ‘among’?)
– possible ‘easter eggs’ of liking bacon burnt black and food heavily spiced hot (to the extent he carried his own peppers)
Some of these are less evidence than clues – the line between can be somewhat blurry in literature analysis I guess. :)
The only strong piece of evidence against it is GRRM’s statement about the naming of Jon, Dany and Tyrion. With Jon he was careful to say “Ned”, with Tyrion a casual “his father” (a notable contrast). It seems highly unlikely that Aerys named Tyrion…
Thats pretty strong though, IMO.
Egg’s section in World of Ice & Fire is so sad. Has GRRM ever said if we’d get the full story behind Summerhall and Jenny of Oldstones? Or is it supposed to remain lost in myth?
@379 – agreed. Competent, people-orientied King who was opposed from the start by entrenched nobles, then his cunning plan to move forward through allied marriages rejected by all of his kids. At the end of the day, he gets dragon focused and potentially causes the massive Summerhall tragedy. Oy.
Sleeping Beauty is supposed to assuage my aSoIaF addiction?
Oh what sad times are these…
of course it does. Sansa = Aurora, Cersei = Maleficent, Tyrion = Philip (whoops)….
@379. I read today that GRRM is working on a even bigger book than WOIAF called fire and blood. Focus on the targayren kings. He said winds will be out first though.
@383 Fire and Blood, previously known as “The GRRMarillion”, is supposed to be published AFTER the series is complete (so after A Dream of Spring, too, unless he’s changed his mind again).
@378 I really don’t like the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ. One secret Targ is ok (Jon), but two would simply be bad writing , especially with so many strong clues for R+L=J and very few dubious ones for Tyrion – the reveal would be completely at random for casual readers who are not into fancy fan theories. Also the idea that only people with Targ blood can save the world by riding the dragons and not mere mortals is horrible. And it would diminish the drama in Tyrion’s plotline if Tywin is not his father.
I think it will turn out that the Targayrens have had good propaganda and you don’t actually need targayren blood to fly dragons. After reading twoiaf I think that sheepstealer, from the princess and the queen, is still alive. Aegons dragon lived for a long time (longer than I first thought as he was big at the conquest and lived to the dance) think it’s feasible that there is some still out there. (Maybe the others have those ice dragons too, that would be an epic fight).
@385
The question was what was the (or rather, was there any) supporting evidence for the theory.
Liking it or not is not relevant to whether there is evidence for it, nor are subjective personal assessments on style and effectiveness.
It would take way too long to type up all the reasons why I don’t think Tyrion is a Targaryen, or want him to be, so I’ll just link to someone else who’s said pretty much everything for me.
http://stannisisthefury.tumblr.com/post/99913526114
It would be bad storytelling. It goes against everything we know of the characters involved. It requires twisting every piece of “evidence” for it into a knot while ignoring everything that speaks against it.
Why does everyone have to be a secret Targaryen? As if this is the kind of fantasy where you need “special” blood to be a hero.
I’m happy to hear opinions on the matter, too, especially when I agree with them.
@388: Oh good, another ASOIAF blog to fritter away time on. I of course disagree with his assertion that Patchface will kill Aeron, but should enjoy reading the rest of it.
Five branches of my regional library system have acquired TWOIAF, but not the one in my town yet. Aargh! *jumps up and down with impatience*
Three days until Varamyr Sixskins, and possibly Tyrion the Grumpy! Whoohoo! If Leigh doesn’t come up with sufficiently creative epithets, I’ll turn to the Lovecraft Insult Generator and find them myself.
That article doesn’t do much to counteract my belief in the theory.
Aerys never knew Tyrion WAS* his, so he would still have that insecurity.
And I never believed for a whit that Joanna consensually had an affair with Aerys.
As a matter of fact, that story only solidified to me what probably did happen.
Aerys threatened Tywin in some manner, unless Joanna bedded him. And like another strong lady(Gemma Teller), she kept the truth of her rape a secret from her husband.
And the only person who’d still know about it now, is the last surviving member Aerys KG at the time, Barristan.
But I don’t deny that Tyrion is most like Tywin than the others. Which is why I think Tyrion is a chimera.
*He’d think she’d use Moon Tea to abort any child of his, IMO, never thinking that she could be unsure of who the father was enough to risk his birth.
Also this
As if this is the kind of fantasy where you need “special” blood to be a hero.
Since I think the extinction of dragons is a necessary thing to ensure the Others don’t come back, I’m not convinved dragonriders ARE heroes, so that’s a beside the point argument for me. They certainly aren’t the only heroes, and I think Bran is a LOT more crucial to the defeat of the Others than the dragons.
Since strong minded Rohanne Webber (from the second D and E story) is Tywin’s grandmother and Tyrion’s great GM even if Aerys is Tyrion’s dad (through mother Joanna) – thanks World of Ice and Fire – Tyrion and Tywin may have her toughminded influence in common in any event.
@388
heh, that was an amazingly bad and inaccurate article. But very very typical of most who argue strongly against the theory.
@general A+J=T discussion
Its always kind of amusing, as well as frustrating, to see the ‘against’ side claiming ‘desire’ or similar is the root of the ‘for’ side’s position, while stating up front that anti-desire or dislike or hate is a major part of their own positioning.
Lets check some basic examples.
Tommen’s hair is not white-blonde, it is golden. The first time we see him it is described as white-blonde, yes. But later the description is changed to golden curls (I believe its in the ASOS chapter where Jaime watches him sign decrees, but cannot check at the moment). Either the first time was a mistake or possibly Tommen’s hair, like many children, started lighter in colour and darkened over time. Whichever the reason, his current hair colour is Lannister gold, not white blonde, and Tyrion is unique amongst his family for hair colour.
Tyrion’s eyes are black and green. No purple. Thats not the point, although there is a second note to this (below). Shiera Seastar had one green and one blue eye, no purple. She was a Targ Bastard and is the only other heterochromatic character as yet. Just a coincidence of course…
As to the ‘no purple’, while its not the point, there is also a counter to that. Check out Darkstar, for example, who’s eyes ‘appear black’, but Arrianne tells us that at close range they are really purple. Or, more dubiously, Jon Snow, with grey eyes so dark they seem black. One wonders if perhaps they might not also be a shade of purple in the right light or angle? Or fAegon, whose purple eyes seem blue except at just the right light or angle.
The point here isn’t that Tyrion might have purple eyes, its that not having purple eyes is meaningless and just a bad argument. Not only is the potential ‘clue’ here heterochromia (with a known Targ bastard the only other character with this trait), rather than purple eyes, but a number of characters who actually have purple eyes are described as not-purple anyway. Black, blue (and maybe grey) eyes have all been ‘hidden purple’ so far. There are lots of shades of purple.
Then there is the Joanna thing. The basic fact is that according to Barristan Joanna was the woman Aerys would have chosen to marry if he had not have obeyed his father’s command to marry his sister instead. The bedding thing is just supporting/matching data that gives the basic fact greater strength – it is utterly impossible to have anything do with Tyrion’s paternity given that it is many years before Tyrion’s birth. Aerys wanted Joanna. Thats all. Maybe he acted on that at some stage, maybe he didn’t. We don’t know either way. He has means, motive, and no lack of opportunity. But there is no evidence as yet that he did, just the possibility of it that cannot be denied (though attempts to do just that are often, irrationally, made).
The rest, “narrative redundancy”, “bad storytelling”, etc etc, are nothing more than personal subjective opinions on things that haven’t even eventuated yet. Until GRRM tells the story, it can’t be bad storytelling (and personally, on his current record, I’ll give him a lot of leeway on what seemingly bad he can turn into good if he chooses to!). Until the narrative is complete we can’t tell what is redundant and what is not.
If you told me before ASOIAF that a key plot thread involved a twincest queen bearing the king multiple bastards as trueborns, I’d probably not have mocked it in advance, but I’d certainly have had mental reservations about competent storytelling etc.
Having said all that, I personally don’t believe the theory is likely true. I do leave a (now very small, say 1-3%) space for the possibility of it though. And if GRRM chooses to go down that path, it is undeniable that the set up for it is present in the books. At least, rationally undeniable, which doesn’t stop a large number of people irrationally denying it.
D! W! D!
D! W! D!
D! W! D!
…
Tabby- I share your excitement. I hope we get to Chapter 1 today. I’ve missed Tyrion, even if he is depressingly emo throughout this book.
Anyone have any guesses on what the final word of the series will be? My guess is: Hodor
“This death, it was not the ending. There are no endings, and never will be endings to the pain, death, suffering and general shittiness in Westeros.
But it was an ending.”
So she thinks Jon is of royal blood?
WHY?
You know, that might not have been a bad idea. Not Quentyn=Daaro, which would be impossible for various reasons, but I think it would have worked out better if Quentyn had made some minor appearances in SOS instead of showing up the way he does.
@399, YUP
As a matter of fact, the introduction of the Benjen is Daario theory made me think that Daario as ANYONE from Westeros would have been pretty damn awesome
@397 She mentioned it once – it’s about the Starks having been Kings in the North for thousands of years, until the Targaryens came.
@395 My guess would be either spring, or dragon(s).
(fat pink) mast.
My guess for the last word is Winter.
@399
I kind of like the way Quentyn’s story goes. He gets all saddled up for his adventure, starts out on the hero’s journey to win over the princess and bring back the magic thingamajigs, and then gets toasted before he can finish it. I enjoy him as the subversion of both that classic story and your standard princess and frog, and I don’t think the former would have the same weight if he’d been skulking there in the shadows for a while.
Last scene:
The surviving Stark children are gathered at Winterfell, looking out over the ruins of their childhood home. They’re all sad, talking about what’s been lost. Someone – probably Jon or Bran – takes a deep breath, and realizes the snow is melting in his siblings’ hair.
“We’ll rebuild,” he says. “There will be a Stark in Winterfell again. And spring is coming.”
(Unless that’s followed by an epilogue about the surviving Others going to ground in the Land of Always Winter, and how even if it takes a few thousand years, their time will come again.)
The Daario is Quentyn story might have been interesting. Maybe they will do that for the TV show since it appears to be verring off towards Dorne.
@407, My show theory is that Arianne’s plot becomes Mycella’s and Trystane’s plot.
@408 – That could work out pretty well now that I think about it. I’m guardedly optimistic – that could work out very, very, well.
@409, It would slightly make up for the loss of Arianne, to have Cersei’s own daughter be the one to make the plot, and it explains why Jaime goes to Dorne instead of the Riverlands, but it still doesn’t make it right that they cut one of the few prominent WOC from the story.
And with what they’ve done with the Sand Snakes *eyeroll*
Last scene:
The thing that had been Benjen Stark looked down on the small broken body that had been the Greenseer and a flash of memory burned in its brain, a glimpse of Winterfell in the spring where Brandon, Ned, and Lyanna frolicked in the cool wet grass. The image departed as swiftly as it had arisen and the wight staggered out of the cave following his masters into the snow as the eternal winter fell.
Aaaaaaand, the “Daario is X” circlejerk begins.
The way people insist on that, you almost think there would be precedents for “hidden character with dyed hair/beard”. /s
Leigh was quite on the spot re: Tyrion and Davos, nice.
Loved this!
And since we’re predicting the show, Jamie dies trying to recover Myrcella in S5–I’m calling it.
Last line: “Winter is coming–but not for a while yet.” Or, something more poetic to that effect.
@413, I’m calling Bronn, but we’ll see!
There was also casting news a week or so ago, that I won’t go into because seriously SPOILERS, but several actors were locked into contracts through the seventh season of the show.
I do not recall if Coster-Waldau was one though.
WOW SPOILERS LIKE FOR SERIOUS
Kit Harrington was though, so question answered if Jon really died or not, huh?
END WOW SPOILERS
But …
Will KH be playing Jon? Or will he be playing some “Other” form of Jon? Or will he be appearing in flashbacks? Maybe a disembodied voice, saying “Use the force, Bran!” or “Run, Ghost!”
anh?
@415, All very true!
Gives me hope
Or not!
So, reading the worldbook has got me thinking (not particular direct spoilers): what are we to make of Dany’s pregnancy at this point? I mean, the reading that we’ve been mostly having is that up until the point of MMD’s interference it was a perfectly healthy bouncing baby stallion who mounts the world, and only then did it transform into a twisted scaly deformed thing, but knowing that that is basically the failure mode of Targ pregnancies for a long time, should we assume that it was always going to end badly no matter what? Or that all of the others were also healthy right up until just before the birth? (Presumably if this were a predictable cost of hatching dragon eggs all along people would have put 2 and 2 together and know all about it…)
Jeff – good point. Sounds like Maegor’s deformed stillborn kids or …was it MMD’s blood magic effecting a last minute change?
@417: Personally, I still subscribe to the theory that Mirri lied about Rhaego being a monster and so forth to make sure that Dany wouldn’t try and create another Stallion. (Details here)
As for World of Ice and Fire, well, considering that this is from the perspective of a character in-universe and not George himself, and whom the book was meant for in the first place (Robert and his supposed children), I’ll keep on taking his word with a grain of salt.
What’s with all the blatant R+L=J talk in the non-spoiler thread, folks? Cut. It. Out.
I’m reaaaaaally tired of waiting for ADWD. It’s like Leigh is channeling some GRRM in delaying getting to the next book.
Before reading the recent novellas, I figured that Rhaego had been an ordinary living fetus right before the spell, began to be miscarried as soon as it started, and was turned into a rotting dragonish thing when she entered the tent. Or Mirri lied about the whole thing, but he was clearly lost to Dany. Then in PatQ we learned about Rhaenyra’s stillborn dragonish baby Visenya, and someone else (Rhaenyra’s parents?) had a less-explicitly-described but deformed stillborn son in The Rogue Prince. So it happens to Targs sometimes, even without magic involved. Thus I now think it possible that (unless it was all a lie) he might have been dragonish all along, in which case he would probably have been stillborn eventually even without the spell. If TWOIAF added more insights on the matter, I haven’t read them yet.
Yeeah, hopefully the RLJ speculation was just incited by Leigh’s unfortunate mention of Jon maybe having royal blood, and won’t continue. I don’t recall people hinting about it to her a lot in the past — it was Renly/Loras she got mad about — but we shouldn’t start now.
@421: However, the only person who was actually present during the birth was Mirri, who had every reason to loathe Drogo and his son, and was willing to do whatever it took to see them both gone. We also don’t know all of what happened while Dany was unconscious, apart from Drogo’s khalasar breaking up and Eroeh’s rape and murder. As joannalannister said in her post (which I linked above), it would be easy for Mirri to dispose of the body, step outside and announce the ‘truth’, and have the already-terrified Dothraki believe her with no proof to the contrary.
@422 – Except Jorah was there when Mirri explained what happened to Rhaego and did not object to her description of his body nor I believe said anything about not seeing the corpse himself. It is possible that he did not see it, but I find it unlikely given his understandable paranoia about their general situation.
@397 – Jon is Robb’s bastard brother, as far as anyone knows for sure. Robb declared himself King through the Stark’s old claim to the Northern monarchy. Apparently, all that is necessary to qualify as a king for the purposes of blood magic is having some number of people believe you are a king, otherwise Mance and Balon would not qualify. That, in turn, makes your closest relatives of royal blood.
I haven’t read the novellas or the new guide, but perhaps the baby was otherwise healthy, and Mirri’s spell caused it to miscarry, which then took the fashion of Targaryen miscarriages? I suppose we’ll never know!
But I don’t know, I kind of want Mirri to have something to do with it and for the magic to actually have done something.
@425 I think so too. The story doesn’t make any sense if it wasn’t Mirri’s spell that killed the baby. “Only death can pay for life”.
As literal as magic seems to be (see discussion on royal blood), the death of Rhageo could have powered the spell even if he was already certain to die before or immediately after birth without intervention…
#423: Except he didn’t.
“He never lived, my princess. The women say …” He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.
“Tell me. Tell me what the women say.”
He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. “They say the child was …”
@405 I was also very satisfied with the Quentyn story arc result as it was presented. Not because of the trope subversion but because I could identify with Quentyn reaching that point in his quest and being paralyzed by fear in the face of the enormity of the situation he put himself in. There’s wanting to fulfil a quest to bring your father his heart’s desire and then there’s coming face to face with an untamed dragon.
When that scene concluded, it left me with an appreciation of the grittiness and “realism” of GRRM’s fantasy. However, there’s on problem. As Preston Jacobs points out on YouTube, Quentyn is totally not dead. His companion was standing over a burned, unrecognizable corpse with a sword. Why would he be standing over Quentyn with a sword? Quentyn is in one of the pyramids recovering from his burns with his newfound companion.
Also, for whoever is waiting for the book at your library, you can download the audio book for free from Amazon. If you activate an Amazon Audible account (credit card info required, will not be charged if you cancel within 30 days) you get credits for two free books. I’ve already activated and downloaded World of Ice and Fire. The guy who reads it sounds like a Maester!
So, I love this bit of misdirection, that I, and Leigh, fell for hook line and sinker, that the dragon Illyrio is referring to is Dany, when in actuality, they plan for FAegon to supplant her.
“As a side note, I’m pretty sure that Tyrion is actually wearing Viserys’
old clothes, which is just cranking the irony dial up to eleven. Man.”
Oh, so close, but wrong dragon. Not that she could be expected to guess otherwise at this point.
And the “Where do whores go?” storyline commences.
Can’t wait for Leigh’s disappointment to mirror my own when Tyrion and Dany don’t actually get together in this book.
Yep, the Prologue’s point was partly showing us the rules o’ warging. Bran has not only warged a human but, IIRC, will soon eat human flesh while in a direwolf’s mind (and possibly in his waking human form too). He hasn’t warged a creature or person while it had sex…yet.
I was definitely expecting more disgust from Leigh re: Tyrion. Thankfully, he won’t be this obnoxious again until Selhorys (Chapter 22).
What’s this about a new spoiler thread???
The one in the post linked to an older one, which had closed, and I thought it was this one.
Ah.
I think the prologues point was showing us what happens to Jon until he gets brought back to life.
@430 Aegon, not FAegon. I refuse to believe he is fake until GRRM says so.
Can we stop calling him FAegon it hasn’t been confirmed so shouldnt we call him Aegon until it’s confirmed (even if he is a blackfyre his name is still Aegon it’s not like we have to differentiate between two characters with the same name).
@430
IMO he was referring to Dany.
Aegon wasn’t supposed tu supplant her, they were supposed to team up as two of the three heads of the dragon.
Query – who does Illyrio really think are the three Targ heads? Dany, Aegon and …. Does he know about Jon? I’d bet Varys does (someone always talks….) and, if so, Illyrio would as well.
@436, If he’s a Blackfyre and Illyrio’s son, he’s not really THE Aegon he claims to be, is he? You can call him Aegon all you want, I don’t think anyone will stop you. I will not.
@437, IF Aegon is who they claim he is, he’s the rightful heir. Dany’s not gonna like that too much.
Aeryl, how is he the rightful heir? Dany should have succession rights since Aegon is her nephew…right? Since Rhaegar was never crowned, it would have gone to Viserys, and then to Dany, right?
My understanding, is that the only reason it went to Viserys, was because all of Rhaegar’s legitimate heirs were dead. It didn’t matter if Rhaegar was crowned, he was the heir, the legitimate succession follows his line.
In addition, after the Greens and the Blacks story, any male heir supercedes any female heir, regardless if the female heir is in the direct line.
#440, 441: I’m not sure what the two of you are talking about. Dany being a woman has nothing to do with it, if Aegon is really Rhaegar’s son, he’s the rightful heir by every law that exists in Westeros. It doesn’t matter if Rhaegar was king or prince – and Viserys was not a crowned king either, but even if he were, once it was known that Rhaegar’s son was alive, his son would be the rightful heir. By the Andal inheritance rules accepted everywhere in Westeros except Dorne, and by Dornish rules as well, children of the elder son come before the younger sons. If he is real, Aegon would be Aerys’ rightful heir, not Viserys or Dany (unless Aerys had officially made one of them his heir, in which case it would have been questionable – but he never did that).
So, things are absolutely clear and simple as far as Dany and Aegon go. By every law in Westeros, Aegon is Aerys’ rightful heir if he is really Rhaegar’s son. By every law in Westeros, Dany is Aerys’ rightful and only heir if Aegon is fake. (Things only get more complicated if we throw in Jon Snow and if he really is a trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna; in which case, he would come before Dany if he is recognized as a trueborn son of Rhaegar, but after Aegon, if Aegon is real. Now, whether Jon would be recognized as trueborn even if his parentage was widely known, is another question; polygamy was never popular with the Faith, and hasn’t been practiced since Maegor the Cruel.)
#436: Nah, I’m going to keep calling him fAegon. GRRM doesn’t have to say anything. He hasn’t said that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, either, but everyone assumes that anyway (and with good reason).
@440 Westeros inheritance goes by male-preference primogeniture, not by proximity. The firstborn son’s son would inherit before the second-born son – and in the case of Targaryens on the Iron Throne, daughters would not inherit at all, as Aeryl said. Things haven’t always been that clear-cut, but that’s how it’s been for the past 150 years or so of Westerosi history.
Although it’s worth noting that Stannis apparently sees Shireen his heir, so he either doesn’t consider the total exclusion of females legitimate, or he doesn’t think it applies to Baratheons not that the Targaryens are gone… even though his claim comes (at least partly) through Targaryen blood. Then again, there aren’t really any other legitimate Baratheon heirs available.
It’s FAegon. Definitely FAegon. And actual Aegon would be ahead of Dany (and Viserys) in the line of succession, since he is the son of their OLDER brother (Rhaegar’s son comes before Rhaegar’s younger brother and sister). However, since I believe he is the mummer’s dragon, that’s a moot point, whether he is a Blackfyre or Illyrio’s son or some other randon dude, he is not actually in the line of succession at all (well, if all Targs die, I guess people with Targ blood could come next, but then the Baratheons would be in line before the Blackfyres, since the Baratheons have more recent Targ blood in their line, so Stannis would still come before FAegon if FAegon is a Blackfyre). My head hurts now. As Leigh once said, man, this is almost as confusing as real history!
Forgot to add: The Three Heads of the Dragon that Illyrio (and Varys) were planning on were: 1. FAegon 2. Viserys 3. Dany
Now that Viserys is dead, they only have 2 heads…not sure who their third head would be at this point.
@444
It’s not so clear as daughters would never inherit, as we can see with the most recent novella release. I do agree with the male-preference primogeniture though.
@447, IIRC, the recent novella is the event that begins the male preference primogeniture. Before that, daughters could inherit, it’s the tradition Dorne still has because of a Targ conqueror.
Actually, TWOIAF mentions a couple of instances even before that when girls were passed over for boys.
1. After Maegor the Cruel died, the throne went back to his brother Aerys’s descendants (where technically it should have gone in the first place). Now, according to plain male-preference primogeniture, a daughter should come before a brother. Aerys’s oldest son was dead, but his twin daughters were not (at least there’s no mention of them dying) so they should’ve been next in line. Instead the crown went to the younger brother, Jaehaerys.
2. Jaehaerys had a whole bunch of children, many of whom died young. His oldest son who left children of his own was an Aemon, who had a daughter named Rhaenys. But instead of her, Jaehaerys’s younger son Baelon was named the heir. Baelon also died before his father, and there was a Great Council called to decide heirship between Rhaenys’s son Laenor (Velaryon) and Baelon’s son Viserys. Viserys was named heir. (Definitely not unanimously, though. Both the Baratheon and the Stark lords supported Laenor, among others.)
So there was precedent for considering Rhaenyra ineligible as heir to the Iron Throne. In fact, it was her being named heir in the first place that was against Targaryen tradition.
Forgot to say: Dorne’s equal primogeniture traces back to Nymeria, not to anything Targaryen.
@450, That’s the show!
In the show, Arya does this speech about this Aegon’s sisters, and I keep thinking that’s where she got the name for her wolf, forgetting she was a Rhoynar conqueror, not Targ.
Illirio’s words about the “dragon with 3 heads” don’t necesseraly mean he was talking about 3 people. That could be a reference to the Targaryen sigil and/or the three actual dragons. The idea that there are 3 special people destined to become dragon riders, conquer Westeros together, kill all the bad guys and save the world is something that the fans made up, with no actual basis in the text.
It also seems that Varys/Illirio don’t really care all that much about Dany or Viserys (unlike Aegon/fAegon). But its hard to say. We know nothing about their true motives. It is quite clear what Littlefinger wants, but Varys is a mystery.
#449: That was not a tradition, that was a couple of cases of choices being made between specific people. If anything went against tradition, it was ignoring the late king’s wishes. Jahaerys I chose his heir, so did Viserys I, and neither king nor council chose Aegon II as heir to Viserys. The Dance had nothing to do with Rhaenyra being supposedly excluded due to any ‘tradition’ – which didn’t exist, and which nobody ever brought up during the reign of her father (if it had been against any rules or tradition, why didn’t anyone protest?!) and everything to do with the queen widow, her father, the Lord Commander who hated Rhaenyra and her husband for personal reasons, and a few other people, trying to usurp the throne while Rhaenyra, the official heir and Princess of Dragonstone, was away on Dragonstone, giving birth to her daughter, not knowing about her father’s death since her step-mother and others did their best to not notify her in time.
Now, if we’re talking about actual Targaryen traditions, that would be the eldest son marrying the eldest daughter, or nearest available female relative, but the Targaryen kings at that point were breaking them quite often and marrying into other Westerosi families. If they had stuck to the tradition, Rhaenyra may have existed, perhaps, since her Arryn mother was part Targaryen on her mother’s side, but Aegon II definitely wouldn’t, since Alicent Hightower was not Targaryen at all.
Also, according to the Targaryen tradition, Rhaenyra also had the advantage of having more Targaryen blood, which was one of the reasons she was seen as a more suitable heir.
@449: Maegor’s half-brother/cousin was Aenys, not Aerys. Aegon and Rhaenys could’ve combined their names the other way to make Rhaegon or something, but nooo.
@451 Oh yeah, Arya preaching to Tywin about Visenya with her dragon and her sword, I remember that.
@453-54 Yeah, I brainfarted on Aenys/Aerys.
But I disagree about the “tradition” aspect. When a situation comes up three times in a hundred years, and each time is settled the same way, that amounts to establishing a tradition, a “usual way of doing things” – maybe less a Targaryen tradition than an Iron Throne thing, though. They did adjust to Westerosi customs in quite a few ways, like no polygamy after Maegor. They did mostly continue to marry their siblings, though, if there was one available of a suitable age. (Not always, but more often than not.) Of course the smart thing would’ve been to have Viserys married to his cousin Rhaenys, to cement the heirship, but I suspect she was a bit older than him so maybe that’s why they didn’t.
As for choosing your heir – Maegor didn’t. Jaehaerys did the first time, but called a Council the second time, which chose to reinforce the same line of thought he’d used in the previous situation. Viserys originally chose Rhaenyra as his heir at a time when he didn’t have a son, and his younger brother Daemon was very unhappy about it because he’d assumed he’d be heir.
(Note – I haven’t read The Princess and the Queen, so if there’s anything there that clearly contradicts what I’m getting from the main series and TWOIAF, I’d be very interested to hear it.)
Well, Targaryens couldn’t have much tradition regarding the inheritance. Valyria was sort of a republic more than anything else and the later Targaryen petty “kingdom” of Dragonstone didn’t give them a chance to experience such issues.
Anyway, the problem was that even in Westeros, with their many kingdoms and local laws and traditions, there was no consensus on how to proceed when Westeros was united under Targs., with the main doubt being what is more important: primogeniture or male preference.
Let’s imagine that the following are alive:
Rhaegar’s children:
– Rhaenys
– Aegon
Aerys’s children:
– Viserys
– Daenerys
Under current interpretation (post Dance of Dragons), the order is:
1. Aegon
2. Viserys
3. Rhaenys
4. Daenerys
The earlier problem was due to unclear interpretation of male primogeniture rule. So basically who should be number 2 and 3.
The males were always preferred (except Dorne), so Aegon would have always come before Rhaenys even though he was younger. But now if aegon’s dead what is next step: go by the primogeniture (to Rhaenys) or go by the “male” rule (to Viserys).
There was no officail law before Dance of Dragons and the previous precedent was not enough to establish a clear rule, hence all the war and the decision to cut all future speculations after the conflict.
Again, Dorne is still an exception, of course.
Apparently Shireen is the only legitimate Stannis’s heir, there are no other living, non-bastard children of any of the Baratheons.
@455 – Viserys made Rhaenyra his heir at the time when he did not have a son, and then continued to treat her as his heir well after he had three sons and one daughter by his second wife, and refused/laughed off his second wife’s idea that her son should be the heir. The lords of Westeros officially accepted Rhaenyra as his heir. Daemon did not assume he would be the heir – he just wanted it, because he was just a very, very ambitious guy. (And if anything really hurt Rhaenyra in terms of popularity and acceptance, it was her marriage to Daemon most of all, because he was a very controversial figure. The fact that her three eldest children were widely rumoured to be bastards by her long-time lover Harwyn Strong rather than her 100% gay first husband Laenor Velaryon also did not help.) Rhaenyra was also deemed a more suitable heir than her half-brother Aegon because she had more Targaryen blood (her mother Aemma Arryn was herself a granddaughter of the Old King Jahaerys).
SPOILERS for The Princess and the Queen follow.
Alicent and Otto Hightower, Criston Cole, Aegon and their faction “the Greens” didn’t make a move until Viserys was dead, taking advantage of the fact that Rhaenyra, as Princess of Dragonstone (a usual title of the heir to the throne) was off on Dragonstone, giving birth, and was not informed of her father’s death for several days. They actually announced their intentions in the Council after his death, and then they hid his death from the public until they could consolidate the power – and that consolidation included the murder of the Master of Coin, Lord Beesbury, who spoke out for Rhaenyra, and was murdered by the Lord Commander of Kingsguard, Criston Cole, who had very, very personal reasons for hating Rhaenyra and her husband (namely, romantic reasons):
and that’s how the discussion ended:
If that’s not an usurpation I don’t know what is.
Is there a single volume that has all of the ASOIAF-related short stories? If not, what do I need to buy to get all of them?
@459 not yet. There was a rumour that after the next dunk and egg story is released the first four will be released together.
#459: There’s an upcoming one that will have the three stories – it’s called “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”. It’s already been published in other languages, but the English version is still in preparation, because they plan to add illustrations, in order to feature new content for those who already own the antologies.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Knight_of_the_Seven_Kingdoms
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Knight-Seven-Kingdoms-George-Martin/dp/0007507674
Cool, thank you.
Aeryl @@@@@448
What did the Counsel of 101 establish? I don’t think that was ever made clear. Was that what decided Viserys I as the heir of the Old King Jahearys? Did it also establish the law going forward? Because it’s stated by the Master of Laws right after Viserys’s death that according to the law, male heirs always come before female heirs. Admittedly the situation between Rhaneys-Viserys was a little different than Rhaenyra-Aegon II.
Lyanna Mormont @@@@@ 455
Rhaenys and Viserys were pretty close in age. Viserys died at fifty-two. Rhaenys died within a year or two and she was fifty-five when she died.
Yes, Viserys didn’t want Daemon (his brother) on the throne under any circumstances so when his son died only a few days after being born along with his first wife, and he heard that his brother had made some disparaging remark about it, he named Rhaenyra as heir. At first it seemed to be all about keeping Daemon from the throne, but I think later, after he did have a living son with his second wife, it was more about him actually wanting his daughter to succeed him.
@457 Interesting. I’ll have to read that sometime.
However, I suspect that a takeover by Stannis from Joffrey might have looked fairly similar, if Stannis had been in KL at the time and had lords supporting him. That doesn’t mean that Stannis wouldn’t have a legal claim. My point is still that Viserys naming Rhaenyra as his heir over Aegon went against all previous decisions regarding inheritance of the Iron Throne, so the legality of it could certainly be questioned – and unsurprisingly, it was.
@463 From TWOIAF:
“At this council, nine lesser claimants were heard and dismissed, leaving only two primary claimaints to the throne: Laenor Velaryon, son of Princess Rhaenys – who was the eldest daughter of Jaehaerys’s eldest son, Aemon – and Prince Viserys, eldest son of Baelon the Brave and Princess Alyssa. Each had their merits, for primogeniture favored Laenor, while proximity favored Viserys, who was also the last Targaryen primce to ride Balerion before the dragon’s death in 94 AC. Laenor himself had recently acquired a dragon, a splendid creature that he named Seasmoke. But for many lords of the realm, what matter most was that the male line take precedence over the female line – not to mention that Viserys was a prince of four-and-twenty while Laenor was just a boy of seven.
But against all this, Laenor had one shining advantage: he was the son of Lord Corlys Velaryon, the Sea Snake, the wealthiest man in the Seven Kingdoms. [Long section about Corlys.]
His fame, his reputation, and his wealth did much to support his son Laenor’s claim. Boremund Baratheon also supported Laenor’s claim, as did Lord Ellard Stark. So, too, did Lord Blackwood, Lord Bar Emmon, and Lord Celtigar. But they were too few. The tide was against them, and though the maesters who counted the results never gave numbers, it was rumored that the Great Council had voted rwenty to one in favor of Prince Viserys. The king, not present for final deliberations, named Viserys the Prince of Dragonstone.”
After the birth and death of Prince Baelon:
“By this time, Viserys I was heartily sick of being hectored over the succession, and disregarding the precedents of 92 AC and the Great Council of 101 AC, he officially declared that Princess Rhaenyra was Princess of Dragonstone and his heir.”
And then after the birth of Prince Aegon:
“For King Viserys, the matter was long settled; Rhaenyra was his heir, and he did not wish to hear arguments otherwise – despite the decrees of the Great Council of 101, which always placed a man above a woman.”
Is there no comments from leighs last post here in the spolier thread?
Weird that this thread is still open for comments. There is a new spoiler thread (7).
Hi, all–please check out the new spoiler thread here: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/12/spoiler-thread-for-a-read-of-ice-and-fire-part-7