You know Game of Thrones had a terrible ending when the Mad Men series finale seems uplifting by comparison. Far be it from me to question the wisdom of George R. R. Martin—and I won’t because the books are his story—but I would really love to know why the showrunners changed so much of Martin’s novels in interesting ways only to negate all their work by not changing events enough.
Someone get me a refreshing Coca-Cola to soothe my stomachache.
Major episode spoilers ahead.
Spoilers for the currently published George R. R. Martin novels are discussed in the review and fair game in the comments. We highly suggest not discussing early preview chapters, but if you must, white it out. Have courtesy for the patient among us who are waiting and waiting (and waiting) for The Winds of Winter. Play nice. Thanks.
I feel like I’ve been duped by Benioff & Weiss. They really wanted us to believe this new Sansa was more powerful, smarter, less of a victim. And for a moment when Ramsay’s plaything was helping her in the bath, it seemed like Sansa was showing some teeth at last. I know she pretty much had to consummate her marriage to Ramsay in order to keep things going according to plan, but then why not let her have the upper hand in the situation, let her have a bit more control? (If you’ve ever read Jacqueline Carey’s Kushiel’s Dart series, you’d know that which yields isn’t always weak. There are ways to submit and be strong.)
Saying “It’s Game of Thrones, people!” is a weak excuse.
Instead, Darth Sansa is reduced to a weeping, humiliated victim no different from Jeyne Poole in the books. That’s exactly what I was was worried about happening when we learned it was Sansa marrying Roose’s son and not an Arya impersonator. The best I can say is that at least Sansa’s wedding night wasn’t quite as stomach-churning as Jeyne’s was in the books.
And is this Sansa’s storyline or is she just a part of Theon’s redemption-seeking mission, a damsel in distress he must rescue? I guess we can only wait and see, but I’m definitely not looking forward to watching Sansa tortured at the hands of yet another twisted sadist for more episodes.
The reason Theon is fresh in my mind is because Alfie Allen is absolutely killing it as the misguided kraken. I want so badly for him to tell Sansa that Bran and Rickon are alive. It’s not going to make him any less of a shit for murdering two different innocent children, but maybe Sansa can look at him with a little less contempt. But honestly, he deserves it. He also deserves pity. The man looks as old as Ser Jorah now. My heart breaks for his broken state even while I hate what he’s done. Am I bad for kinda wanting to like Theon again? I just don’t want him to be solely responsible for getting Sansa the hell away from her new husband.
Elsewhere in Game of Thrones, a bunch of things happened that didn’t sicken my stomach, but also didn’t hold my attention so much.
This season’s missing some forward propulsion for me. I can’t imagine what people who haven’t read the books are thinking; I at least have the promise of some crazy events in Meereen and King’s Landing to look forward to.
As much as I loved going deeper into the House of Black and White, Arya could be be benched like her brother next season and it wouldn’t make much of a difference in the story at all. However, unlike Bran, I actually really enjoy all of her scenes, and learning to becoming an assassin is by its nature more interesting than learning to become a tree. “We are always playing the game,” Jaqen tells her. I’m just antsy to see how Arya might fit into the larger game.
Believe me, I’m in no rush to say so long to Jaqen H’ghar when we just got him back. Would you ever have pegged him for a spiritual advisor when we met him on the Kingsroad way back when?
I loved seeing the many faces kept for the service of the Many-Faced God. Will Arya take the face of the young girl she gave to Death with mercy (for a change?) Why couldn’t she hate The Hound and be grateful for what he taught her in their travels? Was that a lie by omission?
The other face I loved seeing this week belonged to Olenna Tyrell, naturally. She’s another scene-stealer. I can’t wait to see the Faith Militant turn on Cersei because, come on, they’ve now arrested the Queen! If that doesn’t matter to them, certainly the Queen Regent means even less. Sexposition can have dire consequences, no? I can’t believe they really made that goofy scene about Loras’ Dorne-shaped birthmark an actual plot point! Maybe it’s only female nudity that’s completely gratuitous? I think Margaery’s arrest will definitely be Cersei’s downfall—no way the crafty rose and her grandmother won’t think of a scheme to get the upper hand again. As much as Margaery was alone after the arrest of Loras, Cersei is even more isolated and she doesn‘t have a richer, smarter father to bail her out again.
And all that is without Littlefinger and his army pretending to be on her side.
Final thoughts:
- Line of the night: “You can smell the shit from five miles away.” —Olenna upon her arrival in King’s Landing, or “Guess again.” —an indignant Imp (tie)
- The Sand Snakes’ big fight scene really looked sloppy. Maybe I was just ruined for any action scene this episode because since Friday night I have Mad Max: Fury Road on the brain. But the choreography was choppy and not a single thing made me go “Oh, damn.” Again, they’re supposed to fight as one?
- I enjoyed Bronn’s rendition of “The Dornishman’s Wife.” Observant readers will know the last verse. Is this foreshadowing for Bronn’s ultimate fate?
- Trystane Martell and Myrcella Baratheon sure make a gorgeous couple. How awkward to have your necking session interrupted by your father-uncle.
- Tyrion doesn’t sugarcoat anything, eh? But there’s no nice way to tell someone that their dad was murdered by his own mutinous men, is there?
- There are cock merchants. Mr. Eko from Lost knows some personally. He made me miss Salladhor Saan’s humor. Tyrion really is taking the express train to Dany. I wish I felt so certain Jorah would get to sit by her throne again one day.
Next week: “Hardhome.” Angry crows, an Onion Knight, and hopefully less sadism. But it’s Game of Thrones, people. What do you expect?
Game of Thrones airs Sunday nights at 9PM E/PT on HBO.
Theresa DeLucci is a regular contributor to Tor.com covering TV, book reviews and sometimes games. She’s also gotten enthusiastic about television for Boing Boing. Send her a raven through Twitter.
I’m in complete agreement about the lack of forward momentum, I actually really hope they just go ahead and pass up the books storyline at this point. Do what Martin should have done and get to the good stuff already (no page long descriptions of meals and/or boiled leather necessary).
The Sand Snakes are quite disappointing, it seems like they are all just doing their best Oberyn impression, but have no real characterization of their own. Tyrion is always entertaining, even if he is just sailing/walking/being dragged somewhere, but I wish he’d just arrive at Mereen. I do wish Sansa could have somehow taken some agency in the wedding night, at least tell Ramsay you will not sleep with him until your sibling’s murderer leaves the freakin room. I can’t say I was shocked though.
Here’s hoping Arya get’s trained up quick and kills everyone!
I find the Sansa stuff infuriating for the various reasons you (and I am sure Aeryl will) mention. Plus…something about the actress just bugs me. It’s really hard to buy that she IS supposed to be strong and cunning and more than just a piece in the story ultimately there for Theon’s plot and to show us, again, ‘look, Ramsay is a REALLY BAD GUY’. Supposedly she is a great actress – I know she’s been cast as the next Jean Grey – so maybe it’s just the direction.
I can’t muster any sympathy for Theon at all (at least not regarding ‘boo hoo, Sansa doesn’t like me’. I can’t really wish mutilation and flaying and torture on anybody). If anything, the fact that he just murdered two innocent children that had nothing at all to do with all the schemes is somehow WORSE than if he had actually murdered Bran and Rickon.
Sand Snakes are boring. I wish we got more Dorne, because I’m finding Alexander Siddig totally under used. I’m also not buying that Myrcella is in love with Trystane…of course, we only saw them for a few seconds. But she just seemed kinda bored.
The Arya scenes are cool, in themselves, but I am kind of wondering how that one act somehow makes her ready to join their ranks when she still can’t lie, discern liars, or let her identity go.
Jorah and Tyrion definitely stole the show.
Also – as soon as Olyvar came in, my husband and I were, “ooh! He’s gonna tell him about the BIRTHMARK”. I kind of love that that became an actual plot point.
If I recall, the Kettleblacks were ultimately working for Littlefinger and were part of what turned Cerse’s scheme back on herself. Olyvar works for Littlefinger, so I wonder if he will have something to do with also implicating Cersei with something (although he doesn’t really have anything on her in the sake way the Kettleblacks did). Maybe Lancel will play that role.
I’ve watched many movies and a few shows with rape scenes in it. I guess I have to give the director of this episode credit in that non of those other scenes had the effect of unmitigated rage and anger this scene did for me. This was worse that the red wedding, worse than anything I can remember happening on a series. The movie Irreversible is famous for the roughest scene to watch, yet last nights episode literally kept me up. I guess the show runners got exactly what they wanted from my reaction… If I wasn’t already invested in this show so much, last night would have been my last show.
With that said, I lol’d at the father-uncle line above.
I am so disappointed with the sand snakes, after last season, I was expecting so much more.
I love every single scene involving Arya, I wish that was a show of its own.
I’m going to leave the Sansa comments for others, since I know that ground will be well covered.
You know, I liked hearing the tune of “The Dornishman’s Wife,” but I thought Bronn was almost to good of a singer. I would’ve thought he should’ve done it a little rougher given his character.
The thing I didn’t get about the fight scene was who was fighting whom. Where was Jaime during all of this? It looked to me to just be Bronn fighting. Was Jaime hiding somewhere? Was he actually somehow managing to hold his own against one of the sandsnakes? Why were the three of them not able to get the upper hand? The scene just didn’t make sense to me.
“Interrupted by father-Uncle”
Funcle. Seriously. It has fun in it.
+1 for Jaime putting the fun in Funcle.
@5 – Ugh, I thought Bronn was a horrible singer. I was waiting for him to shut up!
I didn’t watch last week’s episode and I’m not going to watch this week’s. I just can’t stomach what they’re doing to Sansa. I’m not saying they shouldn’t, but I have to wonder why it was done this way. I’m tired in general of how most of the women are being portrayed at this point in the books, their power being stripped away. But this, with Sansa… What, does she need to be raped by the worst (living) character in the books for character development? To give her motivation? Because her family’s destruction isn’t enough? It seems a cheap ploy to elicit a strong response from viewers.
(And I’m aware that her plot thread was merged in with Jeyne’s- I question that move to begin with, knowing it would likely lead to this.)
@8 and @5 — You know Jerome Flynn was a popular pop singer many moons ago, right? (Not my style. I’d rather hear him sing in Game of Thrones.)
The Sansa wedding night was ugly, but all I felt was relief that it wasn’t worse. As the show went on, I kept watching the time run down, and being glad it meant that scene would be shorter. I can’t wait for her to get her revenge on this miserable bunch. It was made worse by coming on the heels of an Outlander episode that was as nasty as anything I have ever watched. Cable TV providers can do anything they want, but this made me think that there are things they shouldn’t do, not if they want me to keep watching.
Tyrion was at his best when captured by the slavers. When he is on his game, he can talk a dog off a meat wagon. Great scene, and now we know how he and Jorah will get to Mereen. And thanks for letting us know that the slaver was Mr. Eko–I kept saying, “Who is that guy? He looks so familiar.”
The Arya scenes were creepy and strange. Looks like she is going to learn how to change faces like the faceless ones. I have no idea where that is going, but cling to the fact that Needle was not abandoned, merely hidden.
The Dornish stuff was OK, but if that is all the Sand Snakes get to do, they were not worth the build up. Didn’t Bronn get nicked with a blade? And aren’t Dornishmen known for poisoning their blades? And we now have completely new ground to tread with Jamie a captive in Dorne.
The Kings Landing stuff was interesting. Cersei was smirking in the trial as Margaery was led off, and you could tell that she hadn’t listened to a lick of what Olenna had told her about destroying the alliance. With her family broke, and Kings Landing in turmoil, she is digging her own grave. How long will it be before her cousin tells his pals that she slept with her brother, and slept with him as well? She totally missed the fact that even kings and queens are not above a religious court. And she has driven a big wedge between herself and Tommen, who doesn’t know how to fight, but is not going to let his beloved get dragged off without some sort of struggle.
We are rapidly nearing the end of the current book, which means things are going to be really interesting from here on in.
One thing confused me. I thought Northern marriages had a “bedding” ceremony after the wedding ceremony, in which the groom and bride are carried up to the bed in a lewd way (as happened with Edmure in the Red Wedding). Why was that absent from the Sansa-Ramsay wedding?
This was actually a really entertaining episode –
First the elephant in the room – the “rape” scene. No worse than the scene of the “Fun Twins” on the funeral pyre. I actually felt worse for Theon during that scene than Sansa. As Ramsey would say – “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.” Let’s face it – we knew from the first day Sansa and Ramsey were paired up that there would be some weird sexual struggle in the future. Not surprised. No shocked. No appalled.
Second in regards to the show vs books debate. I had read the books long before the show ever made it’s way into existence. I look at it like this and it gives me the greatest amount of enjoyment – the books are a backbone for the show (i.e. character, locations, some plot) – the show then takes that and develops something enjoyable for TV.
It’s still the best on TV….relax and enjoy it….don’t get to caught up in “this and that.”
Just MHO
@11 O.o I missed Bronn getting stuck. What if he is poisoned? Again, the fight choreography was weak and the Sand Snakes bore me. (I also didn’t watch this episode twice like usual because Mad Men series finale was on and I didn’t want to get spoiled.)
I also haven’t watched most of the second season of Outlander yet, but I have to plug my ears around the Tor offices today because people are definitely discussing this weekend’s episode with disgust.
@12 A groom can refuse the bedding if he chooses — Ned Stark refused. I can only imagine that either Ramsay doesn’t want to share Sansa or that he was maybe mindful that his bride wouldn’t want one knowing what the Boltons did the last time they had one.
@13 It’s my job to get caught up in this and that and while you can have your opinion, I’m still going with Sansa had it worse in that scene. They both had a traumatic experience, but, yeah, definitely feeling worse for the girl getting forcibly raped in her own home, in front of a former childhood friend and current traitor who murdered her brothers, as her first sexual experience. I am just thankful it wasn’t as vile as in the books — which was from Theon’s perspective and made me sympathize with the torture Ramsay was putting him through instead of focusing on Jeyne’s rape.
@2 Ha! You know me SO WELL!
I’ve been outraging about this last night, so here goes.
It’s not that I necessarily think that what happened to Sansa could/should have been avoided. As a matter of fact, I have an even bigger problem with the whole “avoids rape with being clever” storyline, because it’s a circuitous way of blaming the victim(Look, if you’d just been smart, you wouldn’t have gotten raped). But having Sansa ATTEMPT to talk Ramsay out of it, by pointing out that all she has to do is say boo, and Ramsay will find himself staked and flayed, is not out of character for her, even if it fails. For her to meekly submit is to undo all of the character work that has come before. This is the woman who spent two years in King’s Landing learning to use her words to manipulate people, who knelt before Joffrey and begged for her father’s life, who told Joffrey straight to his face that her brother would kill him, who looked at her father’s head face on, stoically endured the abuse of the Kingsguard and faced her wedding night with Tyrion.
And the whole point of Sansa’s story in the books is that a)NOT EVERY WOMAN is raped and b) learning to exercise agency. Bringing the count of main female characters still living to 3 of 5 is ridiculous, and completely disregards her narrative. I won’t go in too deeply into her WOW chapter, but to say that Sansa’s going to go through the same thing she did with Ramsay with Harry the Heir is way off base. Sansa PLAYS Harry, who is mature and confident, whereas much of Ramsay’s cruelty comes from his own insecurities, trying to prove himself a “true Bolton” by outdoing his father.
Another argument I’ve seen is that “Well it happens to Jeyne”. But Jeyne and Sansa are two different people. Jeyne was held captive and raped in brothel for two years, released and sent home on the condition that she DOES NOT make waves. Jeyne is not an actual Stark, so attempting to play the cards that Sansa can, as a true Stark, is risky and could blow up in her face. And finally, the first Northern woman Jeyne meets on her arrival is Lady Dustin, who ignores the obvious sexual abuse she’s suffered to declare her a pure virginal Arya. The first one Sansa meets pointedly tells her “The North Remembers”. Sansa has an enormous amount of leverage, where Jeyne has none, so to act as if what happened to them is comparable is ludicrous.
And then finally, the focus of the scene gives away the intention of the show. Thinking to Outlander, when Claire is raped, the camera is on HER face, focused on her disbelief and then resolve as she decides to fight back. It’s not on Jamie, and how he feels about his wife being raped, it’s about Claire. When it comes to this scene, GOT, the focus of Sansa’s rape is THEON. FUCKING THEON. This entire story is about sacrificing who Sansa is becoming, in service to Theon’s character development.
In regards to the rest of the episode, obviously LF has now manipulated Cersei into allowing him to openly move his forces North in support of whichever side wins the upcoming Bolton/Baratheon conflict. The High Sparrow has waited for Cersei to burn her last bridges before taking her into custody, because he totally already knows everything Lancel has to tell him about her sins. I wouldn’t be surprised if that happens at the start of the next episode, as she tries to leave after this pretrial thingy.
Sand Snakes continue to disappoint, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Nym poisoned her blades. So long Bronn! Tyrion bonding with Jorah over his dad was sweet. Dude from Lost is going to be beheaded I imagine when he arrives with “slaves” to sell in the fighting pits, oops.
Let’s hope this kills her thoughts that Littlefinger is on her side. He knew what would happen in the marriage. And if they bring a dog into the bedroom I will have to throw up.
@12, Actually a bedding is a Southern thing, Northerners don’t necessarily adhere to it(see Theresa’s mention of Ned above).
@11, As I say in my comment, there is no doubt in my mind that the High Sparrow already knows. He was just waiting for Cersei to find herself without allies, as she has now done.
Also, I neglected to mention it, but I’m certain the entire reason to get LF down to KL was so Cersei could secure Olyvar’s testimony for her.
@16, He is on her side, but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t know what would happen. Book LF wouldn’t let it happen, but Show LF would. Again, this just further demonstrates that the books and show are nothing alike anymore.
“But it’s Game of Thrones, people. What do you expect?”
Ha
The new site hasn’t been letting me post (or my work software is blocking it – same difference). So… testing 1, 2 3.
Rob
This season has been largely a disappointment to me. A lot of the nuance in the books has been lost, and the shortening of Tyrion’s journey feels abrupt to me. And I agree about Sansa. When it was Jeyne, it made sense that she was there to further Theon’s story, but it doesn’t make sense for Sansa, so I have no idea what the ultimate goal is, but it better be good for Sansa’s story, not just Theon’s. The show just doesn’t seem as compelling the me as it did in previous seasons.
Looks like it is up. Great.
– Tyrion-Jorah scene was good, except that the distances are all wonky (i.e., it’s more than 1,000 miles from Valyria to Meereen), so the “shall we take you to Volantis – OK we’ll take you to Meereen” discussion was odd.
– it is taking me out of the Braavos scenes that everyone is talking Westerosi. The waif should have been teaching her and using subtitles from the start.
– The Sand Snakes and Warrior Elaria just aren’t doing it for me. Ditto with the Jaime-Bronn “strategy” of showing up and pushing Trystane out of the way. Can’t they at least try when she’s alone…. and if she’s not alone ever, then the plan was too dumb for words.
– Tyene did cut Bronn so I’ll bet he’s a goner. (The Tyene actress made clear in past interviews that poison is a big part of her package as a Sand Snake.) Hard to see but definitely happened.)
– The Kings Landing scenes are good but, boy, Cersei has teed herself up for a huge cluebat next episode.
– I’m actually impressed by the LF “chaos is a ladder” plot to destroy the Lannister -Bolton alliance (assuming Sansa actually survives the upcoming marriage and upcoming battle so that LF can marry her after killing off Ramsay – or she is a widow because of Ramsay being lost in battle).
– No comment on Sansa (Aeryl and others have said it all) other than it makes no sense for Ramsay to be a total rapist jerk from the start. Stark bannerman are going to take it personally. Some honey and gaining Sansa’s trust would have paid dividends….
Hate the way they made Loras a wimp. The writing on King’s Landing plots makes no sense.
Book Loras would have killed the assholes who tried to arrest him – not a question. If there weren’t 20 or 30 of them, they would be dead.
Book Loras also would never have sat through the BS trial. He would have answered every question with “Trial by Combat”! Once he got his sword and trial, he would kill Lancel or whoever in a couple of seconds, then any other sparrow in his way out the door.
The book hinted at Loras being gay, but still a fierce warrior. The series has him as a flaming homosexual and a complete wuss.
Sansa better be cooking up some pies real soon. Yet another thing her mother taught her. So many, many pies.
Bronn definitely got stabbed, and I remember thinking, “oh, that’s not going to be good!” He’s a goner. I just forgot to mention it in my first comment.
Aeryl – you nailed it and just helped something click about what I found so upsetting about this scene. I was thinking about it a little bit, but you helped coalesce the thoughts. I have basically rejected the whole ‘sympathy for Theon’ card the show is trying to play (in the books I do have slightly more sympathy for him but not a lot). And you’re right – even Sansa’s rape is meant to be heartwrenching because POOR THEON has to watch. Not about what it is doing to Sansa. Now, it could be argue that for Ramsay, he certainly is doing it just to torment Theon and it’s not really about Sansa (but Ramsay is a sadistic idiot). But for the directors to also take that tack and play it up so strongly, or to introduce it for a character that SHOULD have more leverage…gah. The frustrating thing is that the showrunners probably think they are creating an empowering arc (assuming Sansa does in fact win in the end). It’s the kind of thing I would have (and did at time) written in stories as a teenager.
We spent some time discussing afterwards if you would rage quit the show, lol.
(We’re both introverted nerds – who met in online communities, incidentally – who spend a good amount of time discussing people we only know online, so this is kind of standard for us. It’s not a negative thing!).
It’s pretty easy to follow the logic which got the showrunners to the final scene:
1. The Vale is boring in books 4-5. Nobody watching would care.
2. We can’t leave out Sansa in S5 as we did with Bran because she’s too popular. Therefore, she has to go somewhere.
3. She can’t go to Essos because we already have 3 major characters hanging out there. She can’t go to the Wall because that makes even less sense for LF. That pretty much leaves Winterfell.
4. If she goes to Winterfell, she has to marry Ramsay. This would be true even if the show had fArya, because Sansa has the superior claim. Therefore, we have to replace Jeyne Poole with Sansa.
5. If she marries Ramsay, bad things must happen because he’s a psychopath.
I get all that. It still leaves the whole arc problematic to me for basically the reasons Aeryl has pointed out. The fact that I anticipated it — actually, based on the books, I feared much worse — doesn’t make it easier to watch.
Am I the only one who wonders if Sansa weighed her options during the wedding ceremony? As I saw it she was considering saying ‘No’, and for a while it looked as if she was going to do that, but decided against it and weather it for now. She was taking a lot of time there.
I’m betting there will be a burning candle in the top room of the Ruined Tower soon…
On Jaime, he was on the sideline, holding one Sand Snake back (and nothing more than that), while Bronn was facing the other two.
“You fight pretty well for a little girl” – Heh, that’s Bronn. Taunting to the end.
I was honestly hoping she’d whip a dagger out from under that dress and slit his throat, but…that’s not really terribly realistic for anybody, except maybe Arya with a death wish. In all honesty, I wouldn’t have believed it if she HAD managed to pull it off.
ETA: I think in some ways that’s part of my problem with the character. She spend a lot of time with these silences (she also hesitated quite a bit before taking her clothes off)…but she never really DOES anything. Things just happen to her. Every now and then she gets a snarky comment out, but it’s few and far between. I’m not saying in real life I’d be any more decisive (in all honesty, I’d probably be just as traumatized/frozen as she was) but for a character we are supposed to believe is being groomed to come out on top…I am still finding it hard to believe that is going to happen.
Sophist – I can see the logic, but it still seems like an easy way out. I’d like to think that skilled writers/directors COULD make the Vale interesting (in fact, I would be interested in seeing more than what we got in the books) instead of having to fall back on the rape trope. But I suppose there is also the consideration of trying to merge Theon and Sansa’s storylines.
@27 – It’s not even that complicated. The writers have become very lazy and do everything possible to conserve / recycle characters.
Using a Jayne Poole / fake Arya in this story line would have required hiring a new actress, writing her background, etc… Instead they just ham-handedly tossed Sansa in there. And set up Brienne to rescue her because her storyline was also too boring.
Yeah, I kind of agree, if you have to have Sansa raped to make whatever story-points you need, fine, but it seems extra-disrespectful to focus on Theon’s reaction, as though it only matters because he has to suffer through it. Not that I want to watch Sansa either (maybe if they could somehow show her as not liking it but having inured herself to the idea, and only playing up the cries of fear and pain because she’s getting the sense that that’s what he wants and he’ll hurt her more if he doesn’t get it… but I imagine that would be difficult to act without potentially treading on more offensive tropes), but, meh, some things CAN be cut away and just implied. :P
As for Bronn, I don’t know the specifics of the poisons they use, but could an antidote be in play somehow? After all, if it was going to kill him from a single scratch, it would seem like this episode is the time to do it, have him drop dead right after the fight, but if it’s a lingering poison that has a rare cure, maybe some play could be made where someone offers him the antidote… but only if he kills the Lannister girl (or Jaime).
I don’t think the show runners were just focusing on Theons reaction at all. We saw Sansa’s face as well at the crucial moment. They didn’t neglect her experience at all IMO, and I certaintly never felt the scene was all about Theon. Presumably Theon’s experience, while in no way is it suggested that it is equally horrific as Sansa’s, will play an important role in later plot development and so was important to include.
I think GOT, more than any other story I’ve encountered, doesn’t concern itself with creating characters arcs and motivations, and isn’t afraid to place their characters in a cycle of misery. To analyses Sansa’s experience in terms of what it brings to her character development would be a mistake I feel, for such a nihilistic seeming show. It’s more a case of “what would naturally, organically happen when characters of their respective nature are thrown together? And to hell with predictable narrative patterns”.
@Lisamarie, I’m in for the remainder of the season, but I don’t know if I’ll continue next season. The Sailor is also having a hard time(for separate reason) staying engaged with the show. Plus Penny Dreadful comes on immediately after and it IS SO MUCH BETTER.
@sophist, I don’t agree that 5 necessarily follows 4. They could have played this out in a few different ways, especially since the story has changed so much. It wouldn’t have been impossible for them to instead show Sansa indulging with Ramsay in abusing someone(like say Myranda) and having THAT being the impetus for Theon being “I have to get her out of here”, and would have continued Sansa’s character arc of doing terrible things to secure her power, and playing with the idea that these acts could corrupt her.
In some ways I would rather have left out the Dornish completely and had separate Vale and Winterfell storylines than had the two mashed together like this; however I also think it really speaks to the problem of outpacing the books.
IMHO, Theon’s storyline in Dance is the best writing Martin has ever done, and his journey out of darkness and into the light is among the high points of the series. I know not everyone agrees but someone must. Sansa’s storyline, on the other hand, is an unknown quantity, so it doesn’t surprise me that the writers have chosen to largely use Theon’s storyline rather than Sansa’s, since they know how it will play (or though they did).
Yet another reason GRRM should have hurried up and gotten Winds out when he had the chance.
The MarySue has decided to stop promoting the show. I say this, because I’m recommending this place as a replacement to people looking for an enlightened space with good moderation to discuss it.
The show doesn’t seem to know what to do when it deviates this much from the book. It’s a real shame, because I’d be genuinely interested in seeing their separate storylines if they’d been done well. But the fiasco that is the Dorne plot followed by the regression of Sansa’s character followed by using her rape as Theon’s character moment was just proof that they’re floundering badly.
I’ve no idea why they included the Sand Snakes if they were going to just make them easily defeatable villains (Obara can’t dispatch a one-handed Jamie easily?). Or why they included Doran Martell if they were going to reduce his strategy and patience with telling his guardsmen to patrol, badly (they got there loooong after Jamie and Bronn did). And not only was that rape scene awful and a disservice to Sansa’s character, it’s also season 2 all over again. She doesn’t seem to have any more agency or growth since then, which, considering how they ended her arc last season, makes no sense.
@32 – I don’t know – I definitely got more of a ‘poor Theon’ vibe than a ‘poor Sansa’ vibe (although I know they focused a bit on Sansa too) – maybe because it was basically the last shot of the episode and they spent so long lingering on his face and tears and all that. Perhaps they were just trying to be ‘artsy’ by not really showing it (I certainly don’t want to watch Sansa getting raped directly, either) but I still came away with that impression. Plus it feels like they only included it just to give Theon motivation (which IS kind of a predictable narrative pattern), so it’s not totally nihilistic as you claim.
I can understand that there is a balance – Westeros is a crapsack world and I honestly can’t say I would end up being some hidden badass if I were in that same situation. So I can’t say her reaction is ‘unrealistic’, per se. (Nor would I blame anybody who actually did react that way). But books AREN’T real life and generally everything happens for a reason (I am not sure I agree that reason is just ‘nihilism/misery’) or at least has implications.
Starting a new comment because the text box is getting super slow…
Anyway, Aeryl@33 that is definitely a more interesting idea and it would actually make Theon look a little better too; if his motivation was that he cared that Sansa was starting to become a monster, even if it just started out as self preservation on Sansa’s part: first just observing but too scared to speak up, and then starting to go along with Ramsay out of fear but maybe slowly desensitizing herself to the things she was doing or maybe deluding herself. In fact, it would be kind of an interesting parallel as Reek/Ramsay is the one that made Theon a monster and spurred him into his horrible acts (although I’m blanking if it was his idea to kill the miller’s boys in the show, too).
@36 – I get the impression that GRRM is less involved than previous seasons. I know he announced he won’t be writing an episode next season. If he wrote one this season, we haven’t seen it yet. I hope he just finishes Winds of Winter soon.
The Sand Snakes were written so badly – shallow, one-dimensional, cartoon villains – I just have no interest. And recycling the Ellaria character because they were too lazy to write Arianne – bleh.
Aeryl, that might have worked; much better for Brienne and Pod to rescue Sansa from the marriage than after it. But we all would have found it unrealistic for Roose not to proceed with the marriage asap and for Ramsey not to consummate it immediately. The only real question was whether or not to show us the consummation and how to play it. I’d have preferred they not show it if the purpose was to motivate Theon; for that matter, I’d prefer that they avoid this whole story line if that’s their purpose.
@36: I was thinking a little bit about this sort of thing in regards to Peter Jackson’s adaptation of the Hobbit, in that when you start deviating from the book, there is a kind of butterfly effect or unraveling thread thing going on, in that the book has interconnecting plot threads. If you deviate in one storyline, that affects everything down the road. But then the showrunners get into the position of wanting to try and steer back to the books, instead of just creating an entirely new alternate universe that logically flows from the split in the timeline. So you end up in this quandary where what you do doesn’t make that much sense and might contradict other things that have been established (such as Sansa’s character), whether it was established in the book or even the show deviations.
Clarification: That is in no way meant to justify the show decisions or the mistreatment of Sansa’s character for shock value in this episode. I just mean that when you start deviating from the story like that but still keep trying to come back to it, you run into problems. I’m not sure why they don’t always seem to realize these problems…
I have some sympathy for the show runners. The slow burn in ADWD and FFC is too hard for a TV show. Watchers are complaining about slow sections even this season where things are moving at triple book speed. The Vale part in books isn’t necessarily boring but it is slow and steady. Watchers also complain about too many characters, so I get it. It also may show to tie into themes that will be develop in WOW, such as if S get married to HH and he treats her badly. But I agree execution of this particular butterfly is problematic in several respects. I was really hoping Sansa would be there, Ramsay would act out and Sansa would escape, just as Jayne does in the books, just before the Wedding. I really was hoping it wouldn’t be post-Wedding and that Ramsay wouldn’t act like the idiot he is, since a pissed off post-rape Sansa can do real damage to the Boltons re the relationship with longtime Stark bannermen. I’m now curious who will help her escape (as she has to escape) – Brienne, Theon or both….And I hope she’s not pregnant….
And then there is this: Mary Sue won’t be promoting GoT anymore. Perhaps one of the strongest backlashes against this episode.
http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/
Asides from Arienne and Sarella (Alleras) all of the Sandsnakes in the books were quite boring. Doran had them caught and locked up before we got to know them. People seem to build them up into this glorious company of Amazons but I don’t see it. The two best Sandsnakes were written out of the show with Faegon.
I was really hoping Sansa would be Lady Stoneheart this season (What was the point of showing the brotherhood without banners earlier?). When I heard she was going to marry Ramsey I cringed. She’s Jayne Poole. I only hope that Brienne redeems her honor by fulfilling her Vow to Catelyn and rescues Sansa gutting Roose and Ramsey in the process. Know that Martin has hinted bad things for Sansa in WOW I don’t think this ends well. Good luck Sophie in your future career!
I can look at Tyrion and Jorah without hoping they’ll break out into a Hope/Crosby road picture song with Dany as Dorothy Lamour.
I really love the great job Diana Rigg is doing as the Queen of Thornes. She’d make a great bene gesserit Reverend Mother.
I am really wondering if when Arya gets her training started IF they are going to add in her new founded Warg ability from the books or if they’ll just ignore it. I wish they do address it and then my fantasy dream of Arya coming back to Westeros and finds her badass Direwolf having a huge pack to help her on her assassinations.
This is literally the first time I have considered giving up the show. I chose to not watch the scenes of Theon’s torture during previous seasons (because I knew what was coming and wanted to avoid it), but I’m actually thinking of quitting the show over this. I know that Sansa’s end game (both in show and in the books) is unknown at this point, but I really don’t think it’s necessary to make her a victim yet again. Rape is not necessary to give her more motivation, she has plenty already. It’s kinda depressing that this came to this. And the scene with Margaery getting thrown in prison in the same episode didn’t help either (Margaery’s fate is probably not good in the books though we don’t know for sure, but now it almost seems confirmed to be going to hell).
On the other hand, I really like Areo Hotah on the show while he was a big hulking non-entity (what an oxymoron) in the books. So there’s that.
Ok, after thinking about it more, I need to retract what I said in 40 about the expectation of an immediate wedding. It actually would have made much more sense for Roose to invite all the Northern lords to witness it, just as he did with fArya in the books. That would allow time for other possibilities (e.g., Aeryl’s suggestion), plus it would have given Sansa much more leverage.
@Black_Dread. Twice you referred to combining book characters on the TV show as ‘lazy’ on the part of the writers. I don’t agree at all. Visual media does not easily support as many characters as the written word. Combining characters is a common practice that helps keep the story coherent for the viewer. You can disagree with the choices they made, but trust me, they are not doing it out of laziness.
I am saddened to see the Mary Sue websites decision not to cover Game of Thrones any more–the Mary Sue is one of my favorite geek websites, and I will miss their coverage. I can see how Sansa’s wedding night scene, for some people, is unforgivable. On the other hand, while the show runners have departed from the narrative of the books, the show is still keeping with the spirit of the books, which have put all the characters through brutal challenges in situations that are often unfair. Myself, I will keep on watching, because among all the brutality, I find it compelling to see people meeting their challenges and setbacks, and growing and overcoming them in the long run (at least, I hope they will overcome them–GRRM often spins rather bleak tales).
I can’t believe there are still show apologists out there….and this coming from someone who doesn’t really care about sansa the character….this whole season is full of in-show plot holes….and characters getting raped…
Fools will go . . .
I’m not sure I can accept even the basic premise that this is a “rape” scene. In this world, in Ramsay’s mind, it’s simply the husband taking what is rightfully, legally his at the time he expects (and is expected) to. A perspective driven home by discussion of her previous marriage and by how it isn’t particular violent or brutal given the character (again, context), but more “workmanlike.” Sansa gave “consent” in everyone’s mind when she accepted the marriage (more on this later) knowing full well what it meant (again, a point emphasized by that discussion about Tyrion).
Nor do I think this is about “characterizing” Ramsay. It is his character, which is not the same thing. It is exactly what we’d expect of him and to do anything else would contradict the characterization that has already happened. We don’t “need” this to show him as a bad guy; but it is what predictably happens because he is a bad guy. It wouldn’t be in character for him not to consummate, it wouldn’t be in character for him to consummate gently, and it wouldn’t be in character for him to not use this moment to show both Sansa and Theon he is the dominant one (let alone the sheer cruelty he enjoys).
Is it then about motivating Theon? Again, Theon is there because the plot and characterization to this point place him there. Ramsay asking him to leave would be out of character, as would leaving on his own. So Theon needs to be there and thus we see his response and that he is tormented by it. That isn’t the same thing as the scene’s primary purpose being to motivate him. Plus, any scene is never only about a single character; this scene is about all of them. It isn’t a zero sum gam.
Does focusing on Theon’s face rather than Sansa’s diminish the impact on her and prioritize the impact on him? That’s a finer question and it’s certainly possible. Though to be honest, I don’t know how anyone can think that simply because the camera is on Theon we in the audience are not thinking of Sansa or are not meant to. That seems at best an over-simplification to me. And I think it’s fair to say that had the camera focused on Sansa’s face, we’d be having a discussion of exploitation and “lingering” etc. Finally, I’d say it’s way too early to have any talk about anyone being “prioritized with regard to impact” it’s like judging a book scene in the middle of a sentence mid-paragraph.
All that said, I think there was in fact a huge problem with this scene. Just a few minutes earlier we’d been shown Sansa strong and active and taking initiative (“You can’t scare me”), an inner strength emphasized by her surface vulnerability of being naked in the bath. I’d also argue that the wedding scene showed us the same with her hesitation over saying “I take this man.” One could fairly argue this is more passivity, but I took that as Sansa taking a moment for herself, to weigh a choice. A distasteful, ugly choice, yes, but still a choice on her part. One taken by her (though again, I can see another view). Would Sansa submit to consummation? I think she committed to that before this moment; she’s not an idiot. But not having her try to take control of this moment (successfully or not), especially as it is so easily foreseen, makes no sense at all and wholly contradicts what has just come before. That is bad writing by itself, but given the nature of the scene, and the other issues the show has had, it can’t help but raise some larger questions.
@40, I’m certainly not saying they didn’t have to consummate the marriage. THAT I get. I’m just saying, the showrunners had plenty of reasons to NOT have it play out as a degrading and humiliating event for Sansa. As others have pointed out, he could have played nice to lull her into a false sense of security, he could have brought her to their bedchamber and had Myranda tied up and been all “I know she tried to scare you, would you like to scare her” which would have been scary and disturbing and would NOT have been the terrible thing they did. There were options other than to have them consummate their marriage than having Ramsay rape her while Theon watched.
@51, Our modern sensibilities don’t just go out the window when we consume media, ESPECIALLY media that’s made in our modern times, so that rape in scare quotes is totally inappropriate. It was rape back then too, just because we didn’t call it that. What happened to Dany on her wedding night with Drogo was rape. Cersei, for all that we despise her was the victim of decades of marital rape. Just because people didn’t have the dialog to name their experiences, doesn’t actually remove the harm and trauma of their experiences.
Geez, I went to all the trouble to retract that point in 48 only for you to agree with me?! :)
I don’t feel that the end of the episode was focusing on “Poor Theon”. It was about trying to turn the character back from “Reek” to “Theon” without making it come out of nowhere. It started when he had to walk Sansa and (for the first time in forever) used his real name instead. I still don’t like the rapey scene (fast forward FTW), but I do see where the writers are coming from at least.
There are a number of directions they could take Sansa from here that would all end up better than where she was at either last season or the start of this one, so I’ll reserve final judgement on this arc until we see where they take it. However, this is one of the more questionable decisions they’ve made so far.
I still have to say, pretty much everything they’ve done with the Boltons has been bad, Dorne has been disappointing, and Danny’s storyline has not amounted to much on its own. However, I’ve enjoyed most of the season as it seems like most of the remaining characters are finally moving in a direction that makes sense. Arya, Tyrion, the Night’s Watch / Robert Baratheon have all been good and the KL plot feels like it may be paying off (depending on what happens with Cersei). So overall, mixed but better than the worst of last season.
I agree with 51 that we need to consider the ethos of the times in evaluating the scene, BUT I think this leads to a very different conclusion than the one drawn in 51.
It seems to me that the wedding consummations we’ve “seen” (book or show) don’t have much in common with Ramsey’s. For all the bawdy nature of the beddings, there’s no evidence of witnesses staying in the room, much less under circumstances like we saw last night. Nor do we have evidence that husbands routinely treated their wives as roughly as Ramsey treated Sansa. Yes, all husbands at that time would have expected sex. That’s not at all the same as forcing it.
Technically, the people of Westeros might not have considered Ramsey’s actions rape — at common law (and for a long time after), it wasn’t legally possible for a husband to rape his wife. But even if they wouldn’t have put it in that category, they still would have been horrified, IMO. We’re so used to the brutal world Martin created that it may be too easy to overstate that brutality. In my view, Ramsey’s behavior was outside the pale even for the times, so using the term “rape” seems appropriate.
The issue, at least as I see it, is whether the scene will serve to advance Sansa’s character in a relevant and important way. Like the last paragraph in 51, with which I mostly agree, I’m skeptical of that. It now seems likely to be used only for Theon, and pardon my French, but fuck Theon under these circumstances. For now I’m giving the show the benefit of the doubt, but that’s philosophical; I’m not actually confident there’s a positive outcome here.
Like the last paragraph in 54, I think there have been lots of good scenes this season. In this episode, the Arya stuff and the Tyrion and Jorah stuff were terrific. The KL scenes were good, and would have been even better if they’d remember that Loras is possibly the greatest fighter in the 7 Kingdoms, not an emasculated homosexual. My point is that I wish they’d figure out a way to translate that good work to the Winterfell scenes.
@52 This is why I’m always leery of these sorts of discussions. I’ll let my words speak for themselves as to whether or not I was claiming that Sansa felt no harm or trauma from this moment. And that’s all I’ll say about that since going further just leads deeper into a morass
@55. You’re right other such scenes don’t share much in common with this one, but why would one expect them to? None of the other characters are Ramsay. If all such scenes, or any scenes with shared actions, are all played the same way regardless of who is involved, that’s just poor/lazy writing. A wedding night scene between Ramsay and Sansa should play wholly differently than one between Ramsay and Cercei or fill in the blank with any other names for either side. And I would certainly hope most people (now and here and even then and there) would consider Ramsay’s acts “outside the pale. (though I think it’d be fewer then and there)” But isn’t that exactly the characterization of that character? That said, I’m with you on the skepticism because it seemed the writers paid close attention to hewing to their prior characterization of the two male characters in this scene but not so much with their female character.
I don’t understand viewers criticising Sansa’s character development and its inconsistencies. Is it unreasonable for a character to regress and become weaker, to suffer in an appalling way which tests our faith in their eventual development into a ‘strong’ person? Should every character have a definite arc in which they start off weak, suffer some hardships and overcome them simply with a resolve to become stronger? There was no evidence she was actually stronger, this season was about testing herself after all. I think the unfolding of events, while not how I would have liked to see them, are not inconsistent with a growing character pitting herself against the worst that Westeros has to offer.
I think some viewers forget that this story is epic fantasy, and some plots take years (or 1000s of pages) to unfold. It’s not always possible to recognise a familiar arc of character development, for those who need something like that. I mean, what was Catelyn’s development? She suffered and she died. If the same happens to Sansa the story will still continue, and I’ll switch my hopes of justice/revenge to someone else. Arya, or Jon, or Dany, or Tyrion. We still don’t know who will be there at the end when the story is over.
Wow, that was a shock. The entire series has been a PG-rated kids’ show up until this point!
In regards to “that” scene, honestly, this is Ramsay Snow we’re talking about here. Did you expect him to serenade Sansa? The man is a monster. And what happened in the episode is NOTHING in comparison to what happens in the books, something that a lot of people are denying actually ever happened. Yes, it did happen, and HBO scaled it back big time.
Also, I hate to be in the passive-agressive mode, but haven’t you heard of Droit du seigneur/Prima Nocta? Westoros is established in a pre-modern, quasi-medieval world, and trying to exclude rape because it “might offend people” is dishonest.. Also, after weddings, the marriage is consummated by a bedding. This still happens in several parts of the world.
The scene was horrifying, but *that was the point*. It didn’t feel gratuitous, tantalizing or sensationalized. It was raw, brutal and vicious. Shouldn’t a rape scene be disgusting and impact us? Shouldn’t it repulse us? It treats the scene with the gravity it deserves. What’s the point of a PG-13 rape scene?
Ultimately, Game of Thrones is about power, dominance, violence, oppression, and war. Rape is included in that. It’s bloody, it’s violence, it’s full of sex, nudity, rape, swearing, brutality, torture, and more .And did it *really* take you that long to notice all the stuff that’s been going on in the series? The show is R18 rated. That’s a pretty clear warning that it’s not for the faint of heart.
Perhaps if you’re going to be bothered by a scene such as Sansa’s, then maybe you’re watching the wrong show.
@53, Well your way works too. ;^)
@54 It was about trying to turn the character back from “Reek” to “Theon” without making it come out of nowhere.
So you completely agree that this gratuitous act was all about furthering a man’s story. And, if that’s the case, as I’ve demonstrated above, there are ways to do that, that further BOTH characters and allow Sansa to demonstrate agency, instead of doing this.
@55, I agree with 51 that we need to consider the ethos of the times in evaluating the scene,
There are no “ethos of the times” because it’s a fictional show, created in our modern times. Even if we accept “this is the way this world is” the books and show have shown there are PLENTY of people who would disagree with that, so again, there is no consistent in world standard to judge Ramsay’s behavior by, we are perfectly entitled(and invited, that’s the entire purpose of the story IMO) to judge Ramsay by our own.
@57 Is it unreasonable for a character to regress and become weaker, to suffer in an appalling way which tests our faith in their eventual development into a ‘strong’ person?
When the showrunners have grossly overused the “rape makes you stronger” trope? YES.
@58, Did you expect him to serenade Sansa?
You are apparently not paying attention that half the complaints are that the showrunners chose to do this in the first place, when it doesn’t further Sansa’s story.
Ultimately, Game of Thrones is about power, dominance, violence, oppression, and war.
And it’s also about how these things don’t happen to everyone, because NO WORLD is an absolute shit place.
Perhaps if you’re going to be bothered by a scene such as Sansa’s, then maybe you’re watching the wrong show.
The issue is not the graphic nature of the scene, but the mistreatment of the characters narrative. People are having more of a kneejerk reaction to the criticisms of this show, than the criticisms themselves.
“Show apologists” (@50) is too strong a term. I’m concerned that the showrunners made some mistakes here but I’d like to reserve final judgment until we see how the arc plays out.
Quick editorial comment. The show has done many things well and I’m concerned we’re running a risk of over-correcting. In that regard, I was personally disappointed by the Mary Sue editorial position. I’d prefer to have their vibrant participation in critiquing the strengths and weaknesses of the show on a going forward basis rather than having them sit it out permanently. I also like shows that take risks, and having sites “shun” them for a misstep may give show runners second thoughts about pushing envelopes in a way that will over time result in blander, less exciting television. (The fact that some sites are walking away from Outlander, which I thought had an exceptional, if both painful and boundary pushing, episode this week, heightens my concern.)
@49 – Maybe it’s a tight budget or just bad writing.
I watched Season 1, Episode 1 without having read a page of GOT. I was introduced to everyone cold – and immediately grasped who they were and what was going on. Half those characters are dead now and the story has moved on.
Introducing new memorable and important characters (and killing old ones) is GRRM’s specialty. But the show writers now seem incapable of introducing a character. Who was the last new character that wasn’t flat and two-dimensional? Oberyn Martell a season and a half ago?
@45: “Know that Martin has hinted bad things for Sansa in WOW I don’t think this ends well.”
When did Martin hint at bad things for Sansa in WOW? He’s done no such thing.
I don’t think he’s even said anything about her in WOW, the only thing we know is the Alayne chapter he has released, which is not showing things going bad for her at all, quite the opposite.
Eye rolling so much at the comments to the effect of “Well, how did you expect Ramsay to behave on their wedding night?” The point is the entire Sansa marrying Ramsay storyline is nonsense. They MADE UP a story about Sansa marrying Ramsay, a psychopath who burned down her home and whose father betrayed and murdered her brother, They didn’t have to do it – but they really wanted to, because they wanted Sansa to get married to and raped by Ramsay, so they bent over backwards to come up with the most convoluted storyline ever, in which nothing makes sense, especially not motivations of any of the characters
Right – the issue is not that Ramsay raped Sansa. As 51 brings up, this is a logical extension of his character (although I agree there are other freaky things he could have done with Sansa, like engage in some kinky group torture sex). The issue is that the showrunners maneuvered the story in such a way that this had to happen in this specific way.
I am still holding 100% judgment of Sansa’s story off until we see how it plays out – perhaps they are trying to do a ‘take her to rock bottom’ kind of thing and then she’ll rise up from the ashes and kick everybody’s ass. (Let’s just say I’m glad that the stories I wrote as a teen will not see the light of day, because this is the kind of thing I would put in).
@63
I think it’s unfair to say the show runners wanted Sansa to be raped just because they included it, as if a writer enjoys and condones everything they have their characters do. They’ve changed the Sansa plot from the books and IMO it’s infinitely more interesting than Alayne in the Vale. I don’t know if the books have a similar path at all with regards to Littlefinger’s plans but it was just interesting to see some progression on a larger scale after two books that have been treading water.
One thing I do agree with you on is that I don’t see why Sansa agreed to any of this. Littlefinger gave her a pep talk about facing her enemies but no indication on how to fight them and win. The whole thing is fairly aimless from her POV. She doesn’t seem to be fighting her enemies as much as hopping up on the slab for them (and btw I’m not saying she’s at fault for her own rape, just that placing yourself in danger with absolutely no plan or urgency is either idiotic or just bad writing).
ST@45 – one key clarification. Arianne is not a Sand Snake, just the Princess.
Re the Snakes, Sarella is legitimately cool (even if some may find her hard to spot in the book text). The others did not have a chance to show much in FFC but were set up well and are full of potential. I’m looking forward to them meeting their respective responsibilities (Obara hunting for DarkStar, Nym on the Small Council, Tyene hanging out with the Sparrows) in the new book.
I agree with 60 on the decision by the Mary Sue. In addition to the point that the show continues to do excellent scenes, I’d add that sites like the Mary Sue are in the business of covering popular culture. That’s bound to include a great many characters and actions which are disturbing or immoral (some examples just from recognized top shows might be 24, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Sopranos). It doesn’t make any sense to me for someone in their business to close their eyes to the disturbing and immoral; I see it as their business to analyze and criticize.
I wish i had more time in the evenings to keep up with all the comments. You folks are fantastic.
Yes, I’m a bit surprised by The Mary Sue’s decision. Their site brings a need perspective to conversations on gender in pop culture. (Also, just another favor: PLEASE NO OUTLANDER DISCUSSIONS HERE. When I have more than a spare hour at home, I really want to watch it. Though God know why after what I’ve been hearing intimated about this weekend’s episode. Everyone’s telling me to watch Penny Dreadful instead. Sigh. Too much good TV.) I can sympathize with their staff because I admit, I wanted to quit the show for a brief moment after Sunday night because I’m bored of watching characters get tortured. I’m tired of rape and even in a way tired of having to defend my feeling that using rape as a plot device over and over is freaking offensive and just bad writing. I’m bored of bad guys never getting any comeuppance, the lack of romance– two minor characters aside– or positive sex between characters who love each other or are just happily lusty, male eye candy, and general fun. FUN. Like making viewers shout “Hell yes!!”? Above all of that, while the story is speeding along faster than the books, it still feels slow as molasses in bringing storyline together or at least giving them climaxes. Not like past seasons. We’re four episodes from the end and are there any big events we’re chattering about — like Tyrion’s speech at his trial, the sacking of Astapor, the mutiny at Craster’s Keep? Those all happened before or at the midway point in previous seasons.
Instead the showrunners have Arya doing the barest training with Jaqen, Tyrion still not at Dany’s side, Dany not doing much of anything except stupidly sacrificing Selmy to manufacture cheap emotional weight to a flimsy story. Jon pissing off the crows and Stannis prepping for battle. There’s just a lot wheel-spinning. It’s dull.
That said, I enjoy getting paid to gripe about TV and trumpet shows when they’re awesome. (I had so many positive things to say about Justified and Hannibal. I swear I’m not a full-time grump.) I think it’s a misfire for The Mary Sue to cut off those discussions about Game of Thrones and Outlander (whichever site cut that) because people should have a space on a pop culture site to talk about what is still one of TV’s most popular offerings, genre or otherwise.
One other friendly reminder – my husband is a little put out that people have been talking about WoW without spoiler tags and he’s learned a little more about Sansa’s WoW stuff than he wanted ;) Funnily enough, he came to a totally different conclusion about what the comments meant… :)
So, just curious, has anybody seen Sophie Turner’s interview on the subject? I honestly found it a little disturbing although I know she is entitled to her own opinions (and I guess I can see as an actress liking the fact that it’s a powerful/emotional scene) but I though this was the WEIRDEST part:
Huh??? What the what???? JAIME LANNISTER? Is there sarcasm or something that isn’t translating to text? Is that a joke? You thought Sansa was going to end up with JAIME LANNISTER? The hilarious thing about this is that that’s basically GoT Sansa level naivete right there. (ALSO: WHY WOULD YOU WANT SANSA TO END UP WITH THE MAN WHO ACTUALLY DID ALMOST KILL YOUR BROTHER???)
There’s a bunch of stuff to pick apart in there but…I don’t have the energy ;)
T- sorry about the Outlander talk (Actually, not sorry.) Re the difficult episode and reviewer impact, I was referring to the Hitfix reviewer who apparently said on twitter she won’t do the show next year.
Re big events – there are a few I can see coming but they might be considered spoilers.
Re Sophie’s interview – LOL, more likely she’ll be asked to hook up with Brienne than with Jaime. I’ll bet, though, that Sophie was crushing on Nickolai Coster-Waldau rather than his GoT character.
@67: It is different when the show is not just portraying something disturbing and immoral, but the way it is done is disturbing and immoral. When it’s not just the characters who are behaving in a disturbing and immoral way, it’s the writers, blatantly exploiting rape for shock value and showing very misogynistic attitudes. And it’s not the first time the misogyny of the GoT writers (rather than just the world it is portraying) has been obvious on the show – this is the culmination of five seasons of increasingly offensive writing, and it’s good that the media are finally calling them on it.
@70 – I hear that Pod is quite the ladies’ man…
I obviously agree that the media should call out the showrunners, not just on GoT but on any show, when they demonstrate consistent wrongs. My only point is that the Mary Sue is well-situated to do that, but can’t if they don’t watch the show.
That’s an argument which applies to professional critics. Individual viewers can and should make their own decisions about what to watch and what not.
@73 I’d be happy with even one “Pod is a ladies’ man” joke instead of the usual drudgery. Make me smile a little, showrunners. Come on, it can’t be all rape and bloodshed all the time. That’s not all life is. I miss Oberyn a lot — someone to root for who was genuinely charismatic.
If I’m honest, since Oberyn’s death, there’s no male character worth fan-creeping on. (Jon Snow is too pretty for me.) I’d say Jaqen because he’s handsome, but given his story is with Arya, it’s definitely best he keep his fluffy spa/temple robe on his person.
Ahem.
Jon Snow is a little too grim for me, but if you want some humor, maybe this is a reprieve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4
You know, I had this long bit typed up, but proof reading it exhausted me almost as as much as the Tumblr-esque “TRIGGER WARNING” reactions to this episode. So I’ll just bullet point it:
* The scene sucked to watch. Poor Sansa. (Also poor Theon, but I personally feel 90% of the focus here was on Sansa). And here’s where I cut out the bulk, but suffice to say that I was not as perturbed by the inclusion of the scene. I get why it’s there, and no I don’t think it makes the creators into mysoginists. Having Sansa take the Jeyne storyline makes practical sense, and that just means shits gonna happen.
* People quitting the show: that’s fine, more power to you. Supposed “journalists” and/or “critics” quitting the show: You are a pathetic excuse of … whatever you’re trying to pass yourself off as. Could I offer the Mary Sue any books to burn while they’re off boycotting works of art? (Along with this, props to Tor for keeping with it)
* The Sand Snakes are just awful. I’m also glad to see I wasn’t the only one who thought the choreography was just terrible. Though I couldn’t tell if it was the choreographer’s fault, or the fault of the actresses/stunt doubles who couldn’t pull it off.
Oh and one final thought: As much as I like Jaqen, I really, really hate him as the kindly man. Like seriously, was it too hard to cast a grampa as the leader of the temple? It’s really making me hate Arya’s time there in the show, combined with how they reversed the roles–in the book, she’s the one insisting she’s “no one” while the kindly man calls her on it. I don’t like how the show has Jaqen keep insisting to her she needs to become “no one”. Basically the book she proves her mettle by showing perseverance. In the show they just somehow manage to tolerate her? Meh.
Jill Pantozzi will be on CNN at 3:45pm to discuss the decision. While you all criticize the decision, think about this. Jill and the other staff at TMS, in their dedication to providing a safe space to discuss these topics, have to spend months engaging with commenters about the topic, many of whom drop by specifically to troll, to deny certain acts as rape, to be intentionally triggering. The post in question, which was initially only intended to give readers a heads up and give them a place to have a dialog, has now exploded to over 5000 comments in 24 hours, when typically posts that aren’t of a controversial nature garner about 100.
This is the toxic atmosphere popular culture websites exist in, when they attempt to critique that popular culture, and for ones with an explicitly feminist bent, as The Mary Sue is, this atmosphere is intensified. No one is obligated to provide that space, especially under such detrimental condition.
@sophist, No one at the Mary Sue said they will stop watching, they said they are going to stop promoting it. But conversations about troubling presentations of rape in media won’t stop because they stop promoting GOT, unfortunately.
@Lisamarie, the most disturbing part, is that the director responsible for the Jaime/Cersei scene in Breaker of Chains(a man who has indicated he has no idea what rape is, with his “Her mouth said no, her body said yes” defense of that scene) is the one who made that “love interest” joke to Turner.
@77, They are NOT boycotting the show. They gave the show a TON of free promotion, by reposting every trailer, set photos, and hosting two threads per episode for review and discussion. They are NOT obligated to provide that promotion, and they WILL NOT.
I’d also like to hear your thoughts on how, with the camera totally focused on Alfie Allen, you that scene focused on Sansa? I really don’t get how you feel Jeyne, an abused prisoner and now imposter is just totally interchangeable with Sansa, who is a true Stark and how leverage and power in the North. People keep saying this is “logical” but it’s anything but. Sansa showed for resolve dealing with Joffrey, a king with absolute power, than with Ramsay, a upjumped bastard completely dependent on her goodwill for his power.
Honestly, I don’t get why people are so pissed off. They have a right to decide what they want and don’t want to promote. Yes, they are ‘critics’, but they are critics that have a certain philosophy, so if they feel that a show blatantly goes against their beliefs and has crossed a line to the point where they feel it does more harm than the good that comes of discussing it, that’s their prerogative. Or if they just flat out don’t want to watch it…that’s fine. It’s cool to disagree or be upset about it, but to flat out harass them is ridiculous.
To me it’s analogous to a religious group/blog choosing not to promote media that may go against their beliefs. They are not calling for a boycott or burning books or pushing it off the air, they are just saying they choose not to engage it any more. That’s their right. Nobody is entitled to promotion/coverage.
I have a kind of dark/twisted sense of humor, so the love interest thing is almost kind of funny in a juxtapositional sort of way, but in light of all the other things regarding their thoughts…it’s not (plus, it’s not the kind of thing I would joke about in a public setting. I save my dark jokes for private situations with like minded people).
@81, GOT, like Joss Whedon, are considered nigh untouchable to certain aspects of the geek community, and their rabid fanbase will quickly roll out to “defend” them from the EBUL FEMINISTS who criticize them.
@78 I did like the older black man they had answer the Door of Back & White. I’m sure I would’ve gotten to like him if he stuck around as the kindly man, but I’m not going to complain about having a familiar, fan favorite there instead. I don’t think it detracts from the show at all (again I’m biased.) I try to gauge fan reactions from non-book readers by seeing what my parents say and they were pretty stoked to see Jaqen back, wrongly assuming it meant that Arya would be going on an assassination spree and not just cleaning corpses and getting bratty with her betters. My dad just left me a voicemail yesterday that said simply “Waaah! Arya hasn’t killed anybody all season. What is this shit?”
I agree that Arya’s scenes are not doing Arya any favors — she still isn’t grasping the whole trainees-should-be-seen-and-not-heard thing. Again, I blame this on a lack of Karate Kid movies in Westeros. Shut up and sweep the floor until the older, wiser teacher tells you you’ve learned the lesson. I would’ve kicked her out by now. I don’t agree that she’s ready to become someone else, let alone no one. (I don’t think she should ever become no one because it’d be unsatisfying to see her drop her lust for revenge…. Unless that’s the point of Arya’s story. A little nihilistic, but there could be merit to her deciding there are bette ways to spend her life than seeking revenge.)
I just want to see her learn to be patient, to listen to what her teacher is saying, and fully throw herself into her training. I do think her chapters in the books were really entertaining. One of the only entertaining parts of AFFC.
@83, Tell your parents not to worry, Meryn Trant is headed to Braavos!
@78: Haha, what? They’re not buying DVDs just to destroy them. They’re stopping the promotion of a show that doesn’t align with their values anymore. How actually do you compare that to burning books?
@80: Exactly. She was more capable of manipulating Joffrey in season 2 (when they were sticking to the books) in spite of being younger and a helpless hostage. Not to mention that we’re supposed to believe that the same girl who once tried to burn her clothes in panic that people would find out that she’s menstruating and make her marry and have sex with Joffrey, went on with Littlefinger’s idiotic (and unexplained plan) to give up a safe and relatively powerful position in the Vale put herself at the mercy of the Boltons, in their castle, surrounded by enemies, and to marry Ramsay?! And that’s supposed to be the new, “empowered” her?
So, if Sansa’s time in King’s Landing was a story of how to survive as a hostage in hostile territory, Sansa’s season 5 story is a story of how to put yourself back in the same position when you don’t have to, and do everything wrong – it’s like she’s unlearned the lessons she knew when she was still a little girl It’s as if the showrunners are deliberately trolling, but they are probably just that incompetent.
@79: Ah, I may have misunderstood. I had the impression that they were no longer going to watch or review the episodes. From 80 I see that they were doing much more than that. I have no problem at all with a decision to stop that “extra”.
I do wish they’d continue critical analysis, though. I get that it’s exhausting in light of the issues covered — I’ve seen plenty of political boards and the comments are frequently toxic indeed. I’d like to think there are ways to handle that — registration, captchas, aggressive banning — but I know that’s all time and money. I’d just be sad to see a campaign of intimidation (going by your description in 79) succeed.
@84: Heh.
@84 I’ve been assuring them that Arya will kill again and there will be dragons and they’ll like when Cersei’s scheming blows up in her face.
And I agree that The Mary Sue is under no obligation to promote Game of Thrones, especially since they want to provide a safe space for feminist geek discussion. I didn’t think much about that part of it, assuming that anyone could just ignore GoT coverage on there if they wanted to (the same way i ignore anything related to Avengers, Star Wars or Dr. Who.) I also can sympathize with their moderators. Luckily Tor.com has great ones, but I don’t think we’ve seen a huge zerg rush of MRA assholes or anything either. I can’ only imagine the amount of trolling they have to put up with. Reading Jill’s post again, it doesn’t sound like the boycott some are making it be and even if it was… well, there are other sites to go to to discuss it. Like Tor.com! It’s not like The Mary Sue was the only place to cover GoT.
@88, And I’ve been promoting it as such! Thankfully, before the MRAs showed up, so it’s so far buried no one but the regulars will read it!
I just like the Mary Sue’s coverage of media that raise feminist issues and I hope they don’t back off from participation on GoT issues to that extent. I’d rather more quality discussion than less discussion, and they have a quality perspective even if I don’t precisely agree on a given point.
I’ve been thinking how this could have been done better. I’ve been wondering how the scene dynamics would have changed if Ramsey hadn’t been the complete and total mustache twirling rapist villain and had just consummated the marriage in a selfish, “I’ll just take care of my own pleasure not care about yours” manner. More realistic to “normal” Westerosi weddings where the bride doesn’t have much agency and must submit and probably more in line with what Sansa was expecting, even if she was hoping for much more. But probably wouldn’t have worked dramatically. If they were going down the Jeyne Poole route, it needed to be at least pretty bad to set up the escape and revenge plots later (and I’m actually glad they didn’t all the way down the Jeyne horror path – small favors, that). So more thoughtful filming that showed more of what Sansa was going through and less of Theon could have helped the scene be more workable, maybe?
I’d have preferred an arc in which Sansa agreed to the marriage but then convinced Roose and Ramsey to wait until the Northern Lords could attend and see her commitment. She would have used that time to play Myranda against Ramsey and Ramsey against Roose. When the other Lords appeared, she could have conspired with them to re-take the North. This would also create time and space for Stannis and LF (ick) to bring their plans to fruition. Since LF seems to be using Sansa as bait for the Boltons, it would be great if she could simultaneously block his plans.
In this case, the wedding might never have been necessary. Or, if really necessary, she could have planned to take Ramsey’s abuse as the spur for Northern revolt.
The thing about the marriage plot in the show is, it’s really NOT necessary. In the book, they had Jeyne as fake Arya marrying him as part of a ploy to legitimize their claim to the North, but that’s the kind of side politicking that the show has been cutting out entirely. I feel that show audiences would be perfectly happy with Roose was named Warden of the North, and then Stannis comes and they have a big fight and that’s all we need to see of the Boltons. So the whole marriage plot and rape then most definitely becomes about Theon’s redemption arc. And normally I’d be into redemption, and saying no one deserves to be mutilated the way he has or whatever, but it’s really hard for me to give any sort of f–k about Theon. Even before he murdered two innocent children to prove how big his cock was, he was still a huge ass and a philanderer.
But here’s the thing: In the book, there was a side aspect to the Jeyne marriage: it was a trick plot to legitamize the Bolton claim. By putting Sansa in that place, the show has actually legitamized their claim to the North according the relevant laws. Good job, show. If she were to bear children, they will be Bolton children, who will forevermore be Wardens of the North. And while for this to not be so it stands to reason that Ramsay will die, and I would not mind this, the fact of it still angers me. As other people have pointed out, this just seems to be a really stupid plot by show Littlefinger and does not jive with where Sansa’s story has been going. And it’s like, so they went to the Vale for the sole purpose of killing Lysa? Why go there and go through the trouble of that and manipulating Sweet Robin just to dump him? I think it would’ve been more interesting to keep Sansa in the Vale and follow some larger plot therein, spoilers for WoW or just made up stuff being part of the package. As I said, we don’t really need to see much of the Bolton plot in the show, except for Theon stuff, but I don’t care about him, so he can stay Reek forever and his story would be wrapped up to me. Especially since Asha is not in the show at this point. Then the only plot thread hanging is Brienne’s plot, but that’s because they cut out Lady Stoneheart.
Or, in putting Sansa in Winterfell, I really like Sophist’s idea @91. There just really is no reason for the marriage to happen in the show, especially when they’ve changed so much this season. It’s just a case of what I’ve mentioned in an earlier comment, where it’s like they’re trying to drag a divergent plot line back in line with the books after it’s already strayed pretty far.
The writers do have a reason–they’re telling the story they want to tell. It doesn’t need to be the story we prefer they tell (though of course, we all do have our preferences). That’s really all the reason they need. Beyond that though, it’s also too early by far to charge this has no reason or has gone of the tracks, since none of us have any idea of where it is going.
And without seeing what follows this, it’s a little early as well to just throw Sansa on the victim pile. As I’ve said before, I do think it out of character for her to be so submissive in that scene. Unlike Ramsay’s acts, that just doesn’t ring true for me. But as far as the marriage goes, who is to say that marrying Ramsay is only being a victim? When other characters place themselves in awful situations, or accept an awful situation, for a greater good or to further their own purposes, we don’t automatically leap to seeing them acting solely as victims. I’m not confident which way it will play, but I’m willing to give them time to let it play out.
Okay, so I have to put a bit of spin on this. First of all, yes, the scene at the end really was unnecessary. The same point could have been gotten across in three seconds and not drawn out as it was… but as others have mentioned above, I’m also thankful that it didn’t wind up being stretched to ten minutes, as since we had hints this was coming, I was worried I wouldn’t be able to make it to the end of the episode, which would have been the case if it had been done in a more lewd or extensive way. And actually, I’m quite pleased this didn’t turn into “hey, we finally have an excuse to make Sansa get naked”, which was my other fear.
BUT. I think the focus on Theon was proper and better than simply “let’s watch Sansa suffer”. Having him there to watch her debasement was, if not quite on a par with the act itself, certainly nearly as cruel an act, particularly because this was not only an addition of the cruelty piled onto poor Sansa (and I’m gonna be so pissed if she doesn’t get to kill someone soon, hopefully Ramsay and hopefully in an extremely horrid manner).
Now for the part that I don’t really like saying, but this isn’t as terrible as some other similar scenes as seen in other shows and movies. First of all, although by our modern sensibilities this could not be seen as anything other than a rape, which it definitely is, this wouldn’t be considered so under the societal norms of Westeros, because they were legally married and, as forward-thinking as many things in Martin’s novels and the show might be, the primary purpose of a nobleman’s wife is generally to serve in this manner and bear his children. Sansa knew that she was going to lose her virginity here, so it was truly only the manner which Ramsay chose to go about it that made it terrible. Even so, I think the scene was made far more viscerally brutal than it needed to be, particularly the unnecessary choice of having us hear Sansa’s cries after the fade to black. Was the scene of Leia’s interrogation in the original Star Wars any less terrifying because we didn’t see the droid actually torturing her? This definitely would have been better served by simply letting us know it was happening. We already know Ramsay is a bad guy. Perhaps next week there will be some puppies for him to kick in case we need more reinforcement of his bad-ness.
And again, let’s hope she kills him, preferably after visiting on him the same sausage-related removal he visited on Theon. And yes, Ramsay ABSOLUTELY needs to die at Sansa’s hand, not Theon’s. He can kill evil girlfriend if he wants.
And GoT is still the only TV show I make an appointment to see.
@Billcap
this wouldn’t be considered so under the societal norms of Westeros
Yes it would. Just because there is an expectation of sex, doesn’t mean there is an acceptance of cruelty. Recall what happens in the books when Ramsay tries this same stunt with Lady Hornwood. The last warriors in the North team up to stop him. The behavior is NOT considered acceptable, which is why it’s actually not logical that he acts this way. Ramsay, in the show and in the books, has demonstrated that he knows when to behave and when to indulge. Recall how he lulled Theon into telling him the truth about Bran and Rickon? In the books he waits until Ned and Robb are no longer there to enforce the rule of law before he starts acting out.
Was the scene of Leia’s interrogation in the original Star Wars any less terrifying because we didn’t see the droid actually torturing her
One of the only instances of brutal violence ever acted out upon her in the whole series. How many times have we seen Sansa beaten, attacked or brutalized again?
(51) Sansa gave “consent” in everyone’s mind when she accepted the marriage
I have to agree with this statement (although I was praying she’d say “HELL NO!” at the wedding). In the historical context, it was part of the deal, same as with Drogo and Dany. I’m not saying it’s right; rape is rape and educated modern people can see that. In GOT, it’s the expected conclusion to being wed. I think there’s an argument that, considering how awful it *didn’t* go for Sansa (as compared to the books, with Jeyne), Ramsey could be described as restrained. (And to not confuse: I deeply loathe the Ramsey character, and will detail that further in a moment.) I’m not giving up on Sansa’s development – she knows misery by now and recognized it at the wedding. I think her strength comes partly from her loyalty to LF, and I really hope that isn’t just another betrayal. Largely, I see her doing what Cat would have done – tough it out.
I feel the larger problem with translating the book to screen is that Martin lost focus after ASOS. All scenes with Ramsey are problem scenes. Ramsey has progressed from a one-dimensional villain to a one-dimensional dull villain. From an artistic standpoint, he’s a failure, a brute trope. Theon had a good start in the show (as a damaged lad), but the ongoing psychological privation (in book and show) detract from his credibility. I regret reading about Ramsey and Theon; why are they in the story? I’ve read horrific scenes that deliver a message: the horror is in service to a higher cause (example, 1984). But Martin, who describes his creative process as “daydreaming” is just giving us torture porn. This made me ask: Do I respect a writer who composes torture porn for his own amusement? Do I want to support that author? I don’t. I don’t want his writings in my life and I no longer recommend him.
Returning to the show has mostly been for my love of Arya (whom, as many others have said, should have her own show). I am stunned by Maisie Williams’ masterful performances. I rather enjoyed the reveal that claiming to hate the Hound was a lie; it set up a possible parallel with her sister in being in the protection of damaged, dangerous men. I’ll probably stick around for the rest of the season, but I fear the writers have become their own biggest fans, and storycrafting may be a lost priority.
Count me as another who is blown away by Maisie Williams’ performance. And I have been since S1.
@96
That actually wasn’t my comment, but since I’m generally in line with it, I’ll respond anyway.
1) I’d disagree generally that this level of cruelty isn’t considered “acceptable.” Offering up an isolated example or two of dismay at cruelty doesn’t make it any more or less acceptable in this society. Some people in this society would find it wholly acceptable, some would find it wholly repugnant. But we repeatedly see wanton cruelty and ugliness visited upon all sorts . and we see that cruelty accepted in this society as the norm. How do we know? Because it is ongoing with little to no repercussions. Whether we consider it acceptable or not doesn’t matter in the context of the story, nor does it matter if some folks not there or who lack power think it unacceptable. And I’d say that since it’s only relatively recently in our own hopefully more “enlightened” society that it became generally unacceptable for husbands to force sex on their wives or to beat them (and I say “generally” because I’m sadly sure that some still consider those acceptable), it’s more than a little hard to buy the idea that this act would be found so unacceptable by a majority of people or even a significant minority in the GoT world. And less so that even if found unacceptable, there would be repercussions to fear
2) Ramsay is constantly doing unacceptable things, some of which revolt those around him and some of which don’t do so enough for them to stop him. Unacceptable is what he is, what he does. Until someone stops him. The fact that he is alive, despite being surrounded by lots of people with pointy things shows he hasn’t really crossed any generally accepted line. He certainly isn’t particularly secretive about his acts.
3) I’m not sure I accept that Ramsay always knows when to draw the line (not because I disagree, just because I don’t recall the books or the show that well to make a declaration one way or the other), but I don’t see any evidence that what he does here would give hime fear he is going over that line. We see him rip her dress, we know from that and the sounds (let alone his character) that he is rough. But we don’t get any sense of him beating her, knifing her, taking an eye, of her fearing for her life. In other words, I don’t see any evidence (though we still might) that this is in fact over-the-top cruelty as he or his compatriots would define it. Having Theon watch is without a doubt unusually cruel even in his head (not for him but for general society), but is it the type of cruelty whereby he would fear retribution from that society? I don’t think so. It’s a calculated cruelty, a cold cruelty, and thus perfectly within his character, as we’ve seen lots of times. I think he therefore is drawing the line, that he does know how far he can indulge his cruelties, and that’s as far as he goes and no more, despite perhaps wishing so.
4) I think too the reality of these moments fall somewhere between an expectation of just sex and no expectation of hard, active physical cruelty. There’s at the least an expectation of indifference, of coldness–and therefore I’d argue of at least a casual cruelty, even if it’s cruelty by omission (omission of gentleness, omission of caring how she feels, what she thinks, what she fears, what she wants, etc.) As I’ve said, I don’t think Sansa is an idiot; she’s seen far too much to go into this marriage (not just this moment) with any expectations much higher than what happened. Which is why while I think this scene is logical, or at least, in accordance, with Ramsay, it isn’t very logical or in accordance with Sansa.
@99,
doesn’t make it any more or less acceptable in this society
But laws mandating Castration, the Wall or Death for them DO. People keep ignoring that the reason no one is doing anything about this stuff NOW is because of the state of war that exists in the country, and enforcement of these things are going by the wayside(which plays directly into the creation of the Sparrows). Prior to the war, these acts were NOT the norm, nor were they seen as acceptable.
The fact that he is alive, despite being surrounded by lots of people with pointy things shows he hasn’t really crossed any generally accepted line.
The only reason he’s alive, is because he stole a dead man’s identity and his father is worse than he is and publicly killed Robb Stark. Ramsay was probably a big factor in Roose’s decision, because he knew that as soon as Robb returned North and learned what Ramsay had done, Ramsay and “alive” would no longer have much to do with one another, because yes he’s crossed TONS of “generally accepted lines”. People like to imagine because they remember the most terrible and shocking events of the books, they forget that the reason they DO remember them, is because they are terrible and shocking EVEN to the characters of these books. Much like people use characters like Sansa as indications of an inherent patriarchy in the books, all the while ignoring the MANY MANY counterexamples of women warriors, like the Ladies Mormont, the Sand Snakes, Asha Greyjoy…
I don’t recall the books or the show that well to make a declaration one way or the other
I do, and yes, the book is very clear, as is the show, that Ramsay KNOWS how to act, he understands the rules he has to abide by in “polite society”. He doesn’t care for them, sure, and Roose’s new power as Warden gives him leeway to act out as he hadn’t before, but to say that Ramsay doesn’t consciously know he shouldn’t mistreat Sansa, or that doing so risks his and his father’s hold on the North is to ignore the story. When he needed information from Theon, he knew how to get. If the show wanted to tell the story of Ramsay desiring to have a compliant Sansa at his side, he would know how to get that too. The show isn’t doing this, because they are returning to the often used “rape as character development” well, that they’ve drawn from one time too many.
After thinking about this scene and episode and reading all the reviews I could of it, I have a theory that I think is what the writers, directors, actors, etc were going for. I sort of hope it’s true, but I’m not sure I give them that much credit, and given how much controversy Sansa’s story has stirred, they’re not doing a very good job of it if the theory is true. The truth behind this theory will be proven in the next few episodes.
However stupid LF’s plot is, Sansa seems to buy it. She believes that in order to get vengeance or power or her land back, she needs to marry Ramsay Bolton. Now, she knows Ramsay better than LF. They’re both from the North and in the books, at least, Eddard and Roose clashed before. Combine that with Myranda’s warning about boring girls and Sansa knows what kind of person Ramsay is.
Some of the actor/director comments, specifically the one referring to her as a “hardened player” (Informed ability, btw), the “I will not be intimidated in my own home” comment, and the hesitation followed by declaration at her wedding seem to point to the idea that she’s just going along with Ramsay until she can do . . . something. That Sansa hasn’t lost her agency, but is just gritting her teeth and bearing it until she can prevail (somehow).
This also sort of fits with the show telling us how strong and clever she is in this season. A crazy smart political player who is sacrificing something to get what she wants, etc. etc. The rape isn’t motivation or her character arc, it’s just something unpleasant she has to get through, a fact of life. It does have the unintended (from Sansa’s pov) repercussion of breaking Theon out of his brainwashing, which might also explain the decision to have the camera focusing on him at the end.
This is the most acceptable theory I’ve been able to come up with. I don’t like it,and I think there were better, smarter ways for Sansa’s claim on the North to be written. It will depend on how the characters react in the next episodes.
@100
I’m not sure how saying this is at least partly acceptable in this society is ignoring the fact they’re at war since that is their society at this time. It seems it would be the opposite–to argue this isn’t the norm at this time would be ignoring the anarchy and violence this current society is steeped in and has been for some time. And even prior to that “peace” was only a period of time as you had war before then, and a mad king before then.
Yes, in a peaceful, well-ruled society with laws that are enforced and a modicum at least of social restraint (at least in areas where repercussions might follow), his level of behavior would be dealt with (Ramsay-level behavior, not necessarily a husband forcing himself in this fashion on his newly wed wife). But that’s not the society they’re in. And even in that prior more peaceful society some of that enforcement would certainly be contingent upon the authority in the locality–not some generalized social norm necessarily in terms of enforcement.
I think your points about Ramsay are some of the reasons he’s alive. But the only? Seems to me if his acts were so repugnant, so horrifying, so beyond the pale as far as “everyone” is concerned, someone would put him down as a mad dog, as a gift to society, asas a moral act , etc. If in fact he had crossed “generally” accepted lines. He certainly crossed lines for some people, but they aren’t around. It seems that if he has to worry about Robb coming back as opposed to worrying about all the people actually around him, that makes my point. But we can agree to disagree on that
Yes, some acts are shocking to the characters in these books, but only to some of the characters.
I’m not sure I can square his torture, his flaying, his killing of surrendered troops, or his hunting as knowing how to behave in polite society. And hasn’t he had to be reined in at least once or twice already, or at least been told after the fact his cruel methods weren’t so great? (again, fuzzy on details). But in any case, my point isn’t centered on him not knowing not to cross the line; it’s the opposite. It’s that he does know the line but doesn’t consider this night crossing it. A belief that one would assume he thinks confirmed by Sansa’s problematic submission. At the very least, he does have a “compliant Sansa” at the moment (personally, I’m hoping that’s a calculated compliance that will shortly bite him on his ass, but we’ll see).
As for viewing this scene as a rape scene used for character development, I can get trepidation on people’s part based on past issues in the show. Just not sure that’s a necessary or accurate reading here, though I may be proven wrong (hoping not obviously).
Nice having such a lengthy, civil intelligent back and forth
Okay, so I am not happy. I do not demand that anybody be unhappy with me, but I am not going to pretend to be okay with this.
I hate the juxtaposition of the scenes where she reclaims her name and her power with the tradesman’s daughter, only to basically have the final scene, where the universe simply slaps her right back down immediately for having the “hubris” to claim her own home as her own bloody home. (Especially in light of how I feel about her at the last point I read of her, bookwise, where — almost as tragically — she is sinking into her false persona and false name, almost as a refuge.) Perhaps if there had been more time between, or if the scenes had been blocked differently, but the pairing of those scenes, within one half hour of viewing, felt like a smack in the teeth to both Sansa *and* me. Theon’s pain and regret is already well covered, so I don’t buy that reason for including the scene — there is no reason whatsoever that the episode could not have ended with the ominous wedding, and then whatever plot abuse Sansa had to suffer be covered in exposition like Cersei’s was, with a troubled/bruised face the next morning/next episode or something, and still let her hold her head up as lady of the house — if they were so extremely desperate to include the breaking of her, they really ought to have let the episode end on an “unbroken” note, what with the title and all.
I despise what they’ve done with Loras, who was an honorable knight and utterly, utterly devoted to his one true life’s love, Renly. Instead they’ve fed into a stereotype and made him a sniveling liar to boot. I can’t decide if making the “sin of lying with men” the whole focus of the Sparrow’s witch hunt now is awful or just very clumsy. (I like that Margaery’s downfall is not being sex-shamed, but that is kind of small comfort when Cersei’s fate is coming up. Which brings me to how…)
…there is No. Freaking. Way the Walk of Shame is not going to be handled terribly and with great cringing all around.
The Sand Snakes are embarrassing and they should have kept Arianne, whose plans made sense and were about political power and long term strategy, and fairly admirable, rather than a complicated plan to butcher a non-complicit girl for the sake of revenge. (Weren’t we supposed to kind of *like* the Sand Snakes in the book?)
This is terrible:
Yeah, I’m doing a book comparison and I’m not sorry. I have many, many problems with the book, but it seems to me that the books know that they are doing horror, where the show can’t get its tone even to save its life. Comic relief Tyrion is not working for me as I still resent their refusal to darken and thus further complicate his character.
Speaking to someone else about this earlier, it occurred to me how troubled I was back when they added in the assault of Gendry into an earlier season (I don’t remember if it was quote-unquote legally rape, as I don’t remember if penetration happened, but the blood stealing was certainly a violation). That was upsetting, but I feel worse about it now. I’ll have to sort out why. Beyond “I dislike how they handle it when they add in unscripted pain.”
As in the books, show-Arya is also my solace. The little girl learning to murder other little girls with subterfuge is my solace. Day-um. Anyway, I like those scenes — they seem the best plotted and paced of all.
And I still prefer Cersei on TV than in print. So that’s something.
@@@@@ 100
THANK YOU.
@103 Maac: “I hate the juxtaposition of the scenes where she reclaims her name and her power with the tradesman’s daughter, only to basically have the final scene, where the universe simply slaps her right back down immediately for having the “hubris” to claim her own home as her own bloody home. “
I completely agree with this. It’s like they want to portray her as strong and sassy with brave words, but those words are just blown away in the wind when her actions lead to her getting raped in such a brutal way. What’s the point of giving her good lines like that when they’re going to follow it up with her getting victimized over and over again.
@103, I actually had someone say to me that I shouldn’t be upset about the show, because this is GOT and they “don’t pull punches with characters to spare the audiences feelings” and all I could do was point to Tyrion and say SERIOUSLY!?!?!
Not only have they cut the plotlines that make the audience start reconsidering Tyrion as a character, for him they ALSO include a wholly invented castration* and murder sideplot they allow him to use his wits to escape from, while getting in a zinger about his penis size. It just demonstrates the extent of difference between how the show treats male characters and female ones.
*I mention this specifically, because when people say they are upset about rape, the inevitable rebuttal is castration, which does happen regularly within the series, yet has only been graphically shown once, with some female nudity to frame the scene.
@104, As I’ve said, I could have accepted the conclusion if Sansa had just acted in some way. Especially with the inclusion of that scene from Myranda, which was a shallow attempt at scaring her, but also a warning. Do the showrunners think that Ramsay, as they’ve written him, wouldn’t be bored with a victim that just laid there and cried, instead of fighting back a bit, as we’re shown Myranda does, and is why he loves her?
People keep saying, “He would have hurt her”. First of all, he’s already hurting her. Second, do we honestly think Sansa fucking Stark is afraid of some pain? And finally, yes he would have retaliated, but in his own sick way, he would have admired her for it, just as he admires Theon for attempting to escape with him. He LIKES being resisted.
When Arya walked through the faces room in the House of Black & White, I thought I spotted Varys’s face on one of the shelves. I might have been wrong, but it would be interesting if it was him…
Imagine how offended everyone would have been if the Euron / Victarion Greyjoy story lines had not been amputated? Those two can get really rapey. I’m surprised HBO didn’t keep them just for the drunken debauchery at Oakenshield Castle.
I was talking to a friend at work yesterday who just watches the show. He made me realize how many loose ends they are leaving.
He didn’t know that Balon Greyjoy was dead, but did remember the leech scene. He also assumed that all was peaceful in Westeros except for the North – until I reminded him of the Blackfish and that Edmure wasn’t killed in the Red Wedding.
@108, This misses the points of the complaints. No one is griping because “OMG Bad People Rape”, it’s the devaluation of characters to establish something we already know.
If the Greyjoy brothers had been included, and they’d done a Craster’s Hut-esque* seen at Oakenshield Castle depicting all the rape, I’d have had a problem. But if they’d included the plot and just established that it DID happen, while not including all the jiggling breasts they could cram into the scene, I don’t think anyone would have minded.
*And I was one of the few people outraged about this, that defended that. Not the graphic depictions of the assaults, which were filmed to look more like an orgy than rape, but the actual plot itself, despite a lot of complaints that “it wasn’t in the book” because yes, we don’t visit with a POV character after the mutiny, BUT SERIOUSLY WHAT DID YOU THINK HAPPENED?
@79 Wait, what? (I’m noticing I say that a lot on this site…)
Some podunk website I’ve never heard of decides to stop “promoting” a tv show and that makes CNN????
Apparently I should call CNN to let them know what I’m having for lunch. …as soon as I decide what that is. All those poor bored reporters with nothing to cover…
@111, TMS is the premiere geek feminist site on the internet. Joss Whedon, Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu and Pedro Pascal all follow it, it’s contributors host panels at conventions, and it’s a cosponsor of the NYCC. And the segment, which touched on the decision, was more a she said/she said piece with some CNN “resident GOT expert” defending it with the editor in chief of TMS criticized the scene.
@112, ok and if you told me this spot were airing on TMZ, I wouldn’t even blink, but CNN???
And by the way I’ve just about decided on seafood for lunch.
@113, There’s been a pretty widespread backlash, Sen. McCaskill publicly tweeted she was done with show, so yeah, CNN’s reporting on it. And Jill Pantozzi is pretty much the leading geek feminist speaking on this, it makes total sense.
Can I ask why everyone watches a man buried to his neck, covered in scorpions, and then speared through the face, and that seems OK, but Sansa gets bent over and raped and now that’s too much?
This is a story set in a fictional time and place when babies have their heads smashed in, women are brutalized, and men are tortured. If you don’t want to be in that world I totally get that, but it’s hypocritical to choose what you like and don’t like a la carte.
All this righteousness just bothers me, when there is so much story content in the show and books that is equal or much much worse. I have made a choice to respect the choices of author and show-runners, even when it challenges me, so I totally respect those of you who feel TWOIAF is not for you.
But let’s not pretend that rape is somehow unusual or surprising in this fictional universe, especially when the Boltons are involved. To me that scene came off as much gentler than what I was expecting from the books when Theon had to play too at Ramsey’s demand.
Anyway, sorry for the rant, but just read 90 comments that were shocked… shocked about rape but happy to ignore the other 900 acts of violence against other folks.
Just as a quick follow up, were people this up in arms when a pregnant Talisa was knifed to death? I wasn’t on this site back then so just curious if that act generated this much hand-wringing and consternation?
Why didn’t the Mary Sue stop supporting the show after that (which had no place in the books and to be honest was not necessary IMO)? A pregant woman being brutally murdered by being stabbed over and over in her stomach?
Is that somehow better than Sansa’s rape scene? (and yes she was raped IMO)
I’m in the minority here I’m sure, but that just seems weird how much graphic violence we’re willing to accept in this story, but somehow rape in the same world is the last straw.
@115, Seriously dude, you can’t just read the comments that answer your question?
And let’s not pretend that we live in a culture that regards rape as a serious crime. 20% of women have been raped, and many of those women have been raped more than once by different people. When was the last time you met someone who was buried in the sand and tortured with scorpions? Murder is also typically(if you’re white, like everyone in Westeros) regarded as a serious crime. Murder victims aren’t typically criticized and blamed for their own victimization.
“He shouldn’t have been wearing that outfit. He was just looking to be murdered” -Said about no white person, ever.
But rape is normalized, through portrayals like this. The MarySue thread I refer to above, had literally hundreds of people coming to an explicitly feminist site to say that because they were married, this wasn’t rape. In 2015, despite the fact that spousal rape has been illegal in the US for 30+ years. THIS is the toxic culture that is fed by such callous and casual treatment of rape in our media.
I’m not even going to address the rest of your comment, because I’ve done that at length, detailing the problems with treating women characters as interchangeable.
But “as far as the Boltons” are involved. Let’s be clear, to get the resolution we all see coming, NO CHARACTER had to go to Winterfell to be raped by Ramsay. The upcoming Stannis/Bolton conflict could play out without it, Sansa could have gone straight to Stannis if she were needed to rally the North, there are a myriad other ways Theon could be encouraged to grow a backbone, the Boltons could have put out rumors of having a Stark that drew Brienne North for her upcoming confrontation with Stannis. NO ONE HAD to be raped for this story to continue. The writers made a conscience choice here, one that fans have EVERY right to condemn them for making.
If you had read the 90 comments, you would see that the issue (at least here) was not that the show portrayed rape, but the more meta aspect of why this particular character was chosen for this storyline.
(Trust me, I’m bothered by a lot of things in this show, and actually almost quit the show during the massacre of Barra and Robert’s bastards due to my own panic/trigger issues regarding violence against babies)
Aw, Aeryl already got it…
@116, I’m not going to get into a drawn out discussion of TMS’s decision, go to their website, where they discuss the continued pattern of sexualized violence, the creators repeated ignorance of their own failings, and how this was a cumulative process.
And in regards to Talisa, I was disgusted. My suspicion was that she was a Lannister plant, faking pregnancy, making explicit what the book only hints at, that Robb was set up. Which would have been problematic as well, but instead, the showrunners fell back on the reliable standby, gratuitous violence against women.
Aeryl, I’m not trying to draw you into anything. I’m simply posting my opinion, which I believe is every bit as important, relevant, and on point as your dozens of posts.
If you disagree that’s cool, but I’m also a fan of the books/show and these are my thoughts. Surely you can respect my point of view, and perhaps even understand it, without having to agree in any way?
Lisa Marie, actually no I disagree. Regardless of the character’s story arc my point was that 1) where are the 90 posts about all the other acts of brutality each week, and 2) I asked if there was this kind of uproar over Talisa’s horrible murder which seemed to me unnecessary at the time. I wasn’t on this site back then so was curious.
Oh, and regarding Talisa, I don’t recall a huge backlash, although it also falls under the same type of category – trading in a character from the books for a new one that just gets killed. I checked the thread and there wasn’t a lot of talk on it. Perhaps the difference is that Jeyne (hah…what is it with Jeynes??? IT’S ALL A CONSIPRACY AGAINST JEYNES) wasn’t really a huge player or major character, so trading her out wasn’t quite as egregious, where Sansa is at least foreshadowed to be becoming a major player, but is again relegated to the victim role because that’s an easy rut to fall into when portraying women and switched with a character who is very different but basically reacts the same way. And I AM still holding out that Sansa may recover and this will turn into a ‘overcoming all odds’ kind of character strength building plot, but it’s just annoying and a bit insidious that this is the kind of thing that is always used.
I DO remember a (smaller) backlash against’ Ros’s death though.
I get that, taken completely on its own, the scene isn’t the worst thing (by Westeros standards) that could happen to a person. Aside from the creepy/power tripping aspect of making Theon watch, I would imagine that there are a not-insignificant number of husbands who unceremoniously rip the clothes off of their brides and consummate without any real regard to how they are feeling – I’m not sure if people would bat an eye at that in Westeros (or even in the real world in some cultures) or consider it anything criminal. (I guess we don’t know yet if Ramsay did anything worse or went out of his way to hurt her in other ways). Cruel, maybe, but there seems to be a higher tolerance threshold in Westeros for cruelty. Maybe the ripping of the clothes would be seen as overly cruel, but at any rate, there would be little expectation that the woman would have any real say in the matter.
But media isn’t totally on its own, and that is what the discussion is about. And I don’t think anybody is arguing that the show is directly supporting rape, or trying to play off what happened as ‘not rape’ – clearly, we are meant to see it as a bad, bad thing that is unambiguously wrong, even within Westeros standards. The debate/objection is more about the way the scene is presented and the motives for including it, and what they were trying to accomplish – and were there other ways to accomplish it. Heck, the scene might even have been more palatable if, instead of focusing for 10 seconds on poor Theon’s anguish, some of that time was a shot of Sansa gritting her teeth and a sense of resolve/plotting. (Not that I think we need it at all…). Not saying that Theon’s reaction should be omitted entirely, just that it didn’t need to be the main focus. But I guess this is really Theon’s story so…
I mean, the title of the episode is ‘Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken’ – so maybe if the last shot was something like that, you’d get a sense that Sansa isn’t being, well…broken.
@121, I’m not trying to draw you into anything. I’m simply posting my opinion
No, you asked a question.
Why didn’t the Mary Sue stop supporting the show after that (which had no place in the books and to be honest was not necessary IMO)?
It’s the same ignorant gotcha that literally led to over 5000 comments on the announcement.
where are the 90 posts about all the other acts of brutality each week
Acts of brutality that do not infest our culture the way rape does, so you cannot act as if it’s comparable
Thanks Lisamarie, I was wondering what happened back then, and how Aeryl’s head didn’t explode ;-)
I have to admit I had never experienced a world or a story like this when I picked up GOTfor the first time. It’s an interesting experience but reading authors like GRRM and Joe Abercrombie can be exhausting to say the least.
Folks, moderator here. We all know this is a sensitive and controversial topic; let’s please keep the discussion civil and stay respectful of everyone’s opinions. Thank you.
@Aeryl, just to clarify my question wasn’t addressed to you personally. Just because you post here the most doesn’t mean everyone is talking to you. I meant I wasn’t trying to draw YOU into a long conversation. By all means sit this one out if my opinion bothers you, or if I’m behind in the discussion. It won’t hurt my feelings.
Actually I did scan comments on the Mary Sue post and most seemed supportive, but I had sorted by Best, so all the trolls must have been at the bottom.
David – As an FYI, I edited my post to add more if you are interested (the comment box gets really, really slow the longer you type).
Lisamarie, yes thanks I read the additional comments. While I don’t agree 100%, I totally get where you are coming from. I think I understand Aeryl’s point as well about fantasy acts of violence (e.g. being fed to a dragon), and real life acts of violence being portayed in a fantasy world.
Perhaps it’s just being a man, but that Sansa scene did not affect me any more than Jorah being held up by Mr. Eko and repeatedly punched in the face for no reason. He was already in restraints and surrounded, why was he laughing and punching him over and over? Disturbing, but he’s a ruthless slaver, and Ramsey is quite insane and homocidal.
Both were scenes of brutality, and perpetrators were showing dominance over the characters in different ways (both of which happen in our world quite often).
I have no idea what sort of posts were going off over the the other site, though I have no doubt some were wholly repugnant; it is indeed a toxic culture. But I also would hesitate to imply with such a broad brush that those defending this scene over there by saying this wasn’t rape because two fictional characters in a fantasy medieval world were married might somehow argue the same about a wife in the situation today or that they would treat casually the idea of a husband today forcing himself on his wife
I just wanted to comment on this. I see this argument a lot, but I don’t really get it. There are roughly an infinite number of problems in the real world, and another infinite number of issues in fictional ones. It surely can’t be true that we all have to post about all of them or else lose our right to post any of them. If that were true, sites like this wouldn’t even exist, since fictional events all take a back seat to real world ones.
People deal with the problems that interest them. That’s fine with me, because I can be optimistic that the problems I’ll never get to will have somebody else take them on. And vice versa.
Sophist, can you expand on your point?
My original statment was more about the hand-wringing and laser-focus on one cruel act out of hundreds, which seemed strange to me. I really enjoy the posts about plotting, differences between book and show, future speculation/guesses/theories, so this was what generated my thought on the most recent thread being solely about Sansa’s rape.
I’m interested in your take but didn’t quite understand your conclusion. Looking forward to hearing more.
I guess I don’t understand why you’d expect to see “hand-wringing and laser focus” on other cruel acts in the show. The lack* doesn’t seem strange to me at all — people talk about the issues which hit home to them. For all the horror in the RW, getting a sword stuck into her probably isn’t high on the list of concerns for a modern pregnant woman. Being raped is.
*I’m not sure there is any lack of such comments, though that might be true here at Tor. But I’ve seen plenty of criticisms of “gratuitous violence” and “cruelty” both generally and directed at specific cases (e.g., the RW).
Well, I’ve finally seen The Scene, thanks to it being attached to an editorial on Slate that somebody on Facebook liked.
First of all, everyone who’s decided that the showrunners have hijacked Sansa’s plot and made it All About Theon are making one helluva assumption, and when the final card is played, they all need to pass by my desk as I’ll be handing out crow. Seriously, just because his face was the last thing you saw in the scene, the whole plot has been hijacked, Sansa’s going to be a helpless victim and just a prop in Theon’s redemption arc? I give you maybe a 10% chance of being right, and only because I haven’t seen the rest of Season 5, but I have read the books and watched the first 4 season, and I’m 90% sure that’s not where the writers are going with this.
My own theory is close to Dani Merian @101, but how about this? Sansa ends up playing on Theon’s sympathies and manipulates him into doing something to turn the tables. Maybe it’s killing the Boltons, maybe it’s just getting out of Winterfell ala the books, maybe it’s something else, but what really happens is that Sansa hijacks Theon’s redemption arc because she is the one who has the inner strength, and it’s her strength that is the catalyst that gets Theon to act. And I’m not saying Theon will do all the dirty work. His part could be as big as that, or it could be something as small as looking the other way at the right time. I don’t have all the details, but I’m calling the arc of Sansa Shakes Some Sense Into Theon And Together They Make Awesome Happen.
Anyway second of all, really? That was the brutal rape scene everyone’s talking about? Ok. If you say so. To hear people talk about it, I was expecting branding irons and spiked anal beads, but whatever. Maybe I’ve been to too many fetish parties.
@133, No, no one is obligated to give the show, which has a history of not handling these instances well, the benefit of the doubt on this, to stick around and see how this plays out. It’s incumbent on the show to EARN that benefit of the doubt with it’s audience, something they have failed to do from the start. With the way these portrayals escalate, it’s beginning to feel very gratuitous on behalf of D&D, as if this escalation is their response to those who would criticize them.
So, even if they do “redeem” this storyline, that doesn’t magically retroactively erase the problems it has.
One thing I haven’t seen addressed is that it would have been really easy to avoid marrying Sansa to Ramsay. Just continue with the book’s plot that she’s already married and that they either need to wait for it to be annulled properly or for Tyrion to be declared legally dead. She can still be at Winterfell, she can still be preparing/dreading marriage/suffering under Ramsay, stuff can still happen that further Theon’s redemption arc if they must, but basically… the show-writers had to do extra modifications to make Sansa actually get married and bedded. And that’s… kind of gross.
I may have missed it or be misremembering but I felt like the brief attention paid to Sansa’s previous marriage was kind of inadequate, and I’m having a hard time seeing it as anything other than handwaving it away so they can have her raped by her new husband. I may be being unfair, but you know what? I have limited time and energy, and I can spend it watching things that I enjoy more. It’s not really this one scene that’s the problem. It’s this scene, on top of being disappointed in the sand snakes, and Arianne being cut, and no Stoneheart, and Ellaria being a rabid sand snake instead of a foil to them and being frustrated with King’s Landing. I’m sad, because the show is magnificent, and just about all the actors are fantastic, but that’s not enough to keep me anymore.
Also, at least in certain areas of fandom, I don’t know about TOR, there was quite a bit of people being upset about how Talisa was killed (especially since having her there was a depth of political stupidity that the characters managed to avoid in the book) and about Roz’s entire character arc and death.
@133
Whatever your point of view on this scene, and obviously I think there’s lots of room for people to disagree on this scene as I’ve been at least semi-defending it, let’s please not go down the road of dismissing the disturbing actuality that lies at the core of this scene so blithely and gleefully
@135, They touched on it briefly, Roose asked LF about her previous marriage, LF says it was never consummated(like Margaery’s with Renly) and that they can examine her for virginity if they like, and Roose is all *shrug* I’ll take your word for it. Which is better than what they could have done, actually examine her, but again, that just seems like it was to ensure that this scene was EVEN MOAR SHOCKING.
@126, You may not have intended to address me personally, but as I was the one who brought up the MarySue’s decision, can you fault for seeing it that way? And most the trolls were deleted, it got downright frightful for awhile, but supporting by newest should give you an idea of what it’s been like.
@134, well grievances with things that have already happened on the show are one thing, but predicting what’s going to happen next is another, and I bet we’ll find out who’s right by the end of episode 10.
And while I’ve got my crystal balls out, since this is an odd-numbered season I’m calling a shocking death at the end of episode 9. But will it be something that happens in the books? or a divergence? The answer is not clear, try again later.
@103: I have to agree with you. I fear how they will show the walk-of-shame.
And I agree with several above.
We are not talking about Sansa’s moment of reclaiming her name. That moment of greatness was erased by the actions of the end of the show. They really couldn’t have arranged for the party to last a little longer and this happen the next week? So that fans could enjoy a moment of goodness?
And what is the point of the Sand Snakes at this point? Dorne was going to lift up Myrcella to create a rival for the Iron Throne. Not this cheesy revenge focus.
Did I blink and miss it? Did we ever establish that Cercei allowed the creation of the Faith Militant in order to get rid of Crown debt? Or did the show just have her allow for it creations to get rid of a rival she could have gotten rid of a hundred other ways?
@138, Allow me to echo Billcap, the glee you’re expressing over this is disturbing. It’s not about who’s right or wrong in how they interpret the show, this is about the show unnecessarily inserting rape into stories that don’t call for it.
@139, Nope, all to get rid of Margaery, not one mention of the debt, nor blessing Tommen’s coronation, though if you’ll remember, they did have Tywin make explicit that the gold mines in Casterly Rock are tapped. She did send Mace Tyrell to negotiate with the Iron Bank, but that was more to get him safely out the way to make her move on Margaery. Seriously, this show is so eager to get to the sexualized violence against women they are just leaving these plotlines lying around.
Well I haven’t seen ANY of the rest of Season 5, so I can’t possibly have any grievances with what perversions of logic and character development they’ve exercised in order to get where they are at the end of this episode.
BUT.
If you’re suggesting that a room full of writers got together and thought of all the ways the Sansa arc could have gone that have been suggested in this thread, and collectively said, “yeah, but then we wouldn’t get to show her being raped, and what we REALLY want to do is show Sansa getting raped.” I, knowing only what I know, as I’ve said, from having not watched the rest of the season, find that a little hard to believe.
I remember the interview with D&D saying they wanted to keep: Magic, prophecies, and flashbacks out of the show.
I did not realize they wanted to take all crafty political maneuvers out of the show as well. Really? No talk about the crown’s debt besides the Iron Bank?
Is LF the only one playing the Game of Thrones? Cercei has just become the mother-in-law from hell, with no political savvy? Not that her choices in the book were much better, but at lease there was a larger reason for allowing the Sparrows.
Surely we are not seriously arguing that no one was upset about the RED WEDDING? Rage quits were broadcast all over YouTube, especially those of show-only viewers. Reviewers broke their movie only policies to talk about it and process their feelings. One guy I follow nearly got himself mobbed by suggesting the “pregnant lady stabbing” affected him more than 9/11 footage. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio; just because one does not see a thing does not mean that thing did not occur.
It was a breaking point. Shae was a breaking point. Twincest was a breaking point. Oberyn headsmash was a breaking point. Hell, Bran going out the window was a breaking point for some, and even the early days of Joffrey drove some people away. Some people left when ice zombies happened. People have all kinds of breaking points — I actually haven’t reached mine yet — I’m sure a wide variety more will follow for a wide variety of peopke, but saying viewers only complain about instances of rape but not violence is demonstrably false if one simply looks.
@141, There are interviews with the writers basically saying that they were so happy Turner was now 18 so they could shoot a rape scene.
There is also the issue of Alex Graves, the director of Breaker of Chains, the infamous episode where Jaime raped Cersei, who said it wasn’t rape because while she said no, her body said yes, taunting Turner about a “love interest” this season. So there are a lot of behind the scenes indicators that this is a crew that doesn’t care to treat rape with the gravity it deserves.
That’s a pretty natural way to read the scene, because it’s the role Jeyne Poole plays in the books. But while that’s a natural reading, it’s not the only reading. As I said somewhere above in this thread, I’m holding off judgment until I see how it plays out.
@Aeryl, I see what you are saying since you posted the Mary Sue, apologies. A few more comments:
-If I was writing the Sansa arc I would have preferred she take the Dany road and turn the tables on Ramsey. I thought the earlier discussion with Myranda was going to spark her to confront Ramsey with how boring regular bedding/rape would be, and would he mind if she slapped him around a bit? I imagine that would interest Ramsey, and certainly not be boring. Then she could go from there in a position of power and with some agency.
I was disappointed to see the same old timid Sansa, clinging to the ideas of honorable men, instead of adapting to the reality of men like Roose/LF/etc…and then just being bent over. Was hoping for something more nuanced and demonstrating some character maturity.
-Also, how long has she been there before LF got to KL? Even by ship that’s a long road, and where are his Vale bodyguards? He’s walking arounf KL with two sellswords? Weird.
-Really? a cock merchant? Will no one shed tears for a dwarf having his member removed? How many cocks does a merchant have to move in a year to be profitable I wonder?
-I agree with Loras comments, he is a great fighter but they portray him as a fop. Don’t like it.
-I think Cersei sent Mace with Meryn Trent so he will be killed on the way to Braavos and the Tyrells lose another. Just a guess that perhaps Arya foils this plan?
-The Dorne scenes just came across like a clunky old TV show to me. Poorly written, poorly staged, and why do the opening credits say “Dorne” instead of “Sunspear” on the map?
-Really? a cock merchant? Will no one shed tears for a dwarf having his member removed? How many cocks does a merchant have to move in a year to be profitable I wonder?
And this illustrates another of my problems. Here is a wholly invented scene that threatens a major character with castration and murder, yet this character is allowed by the script to use his wits to escape, while cracking a joke about his awesome penis. It’s really reflective of the different ways men and women are treated by the show.
@Aeryl, that is exactly why I would have written the Sansa scene much differently! How cool would it have been for her to freak Ramsey out a bit and take control? What a welcome change that would have been for her character, and quite jarring to the viewer, while still making sense in her overall growth.
eAeryl,while I’m in agreement that there’s reason to mistrust these writers to some extent, it’d be nice to have their actual words or a link rather than have justa characterization of them being so happy to be able to finally film a Sansa rape scene, as we have their words on the Cercei–Jaime scene
I think the public outcry shows it was a good idea to have Sansa in that arc. It’s when people stop talking about the show that they should be worried. And yes, it’s too early to be certain if that scene was unnecessary. Or if it was simply another example of Sansa being a victim.
The Martell words are wrong. “Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken” doesn’t work. Sometimes you have to bend or bow in order to remain strong. The characters who didn’t understand that were broken long ago. The ones who do – like Littlefinger – remain as master manipulators.
@146 – the potential technical problem is that the Water Gardens are not in Sunspear, but some distance outside the City. But bigger, more likely, problem is that the Show hasn’t articulated well that Sunspear is the capital of Dorne, so to use it on the map would be confusing to non-book readers. Dorne has been teased since Season 1. Sunspear has never been mentioned.
On a different note, how is the line of the show not “The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant”? You’d never hear that in another show in a million years.
@149
Here
“We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” Benioff said. “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.”
Writer-producer Bryan Cogman had some insight, as well. “The seeds were planted early on in our minds,” Cogman said. “In the books, Sansa has very few chapters in the Vale once she’s up there. That was not going to be an option for one of our lead characters. While this is a very bold departure, [we liked] the power of bringing a Stark back to Winterfell and having her reunite with Theon under these circumstances.”
Besides, Cogman pointed out: “You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.”
Here’s Turner
SOPHIE TURNER: Last season [Thrones director] Alex Graves decided to give me hints. He was saying, “You get a love interest next season.” And I was all, “I actually get a love interest!”…
Showrunners [David Benioff and Dan Weiss] must have been like, “Okay, let’s do everything we can to make her the most abused, manipulated character!”
I’ve been unable to find the one where they pretty much state, “Yeah we’ve been waiting for her to come of age so we could do this plot”.
And again, this demonstrates who the focus is for this plot, Theon, not Sansa.
@@@@@ 153
That’s because Theon is D&D’s favorite character. When asked in an interview (I don’t remember where I read it) who their favorite character was they replied Theon. That’s right, Theon Fucking Greyjoy. They have thrown Sansa’s narrative under the bus for the sake of their favorite character’s redemption arc.
Don’t kid yourselves guys, Sansa is not going to become a strong character from this somehow. She is simply a substation for the Jeyne character from the book and is only there for Theon to rescue with the help of Brienne & Pod in the role of Mance and the spearwives. I’m not sure why this surprises anyone as it was obvious from the moment we found out Sansa was going to Winterfell.
The fact that the emphasis for the scene was on Theon and not Sansa only demonstrates this, and the emphasis was him. In shows & movies the camera is pointed at what the director wants the viewer to focus on, that’s how it works. The show runners wanted us to focus on Theon, not Sansa, otherwise the camera would have been on her (preferably in a close shot of her face so that we wouldn’t have to see anything else). They wanted us to see Theon’s pain, not Sansa’s.
This was a terrible episode from the very beginning and only got worse at the end. The series has been going down hill since last season but this season has been abysmally bad. I’m beginning to regret my decision to re-up my subscription to HBO (which I cancelled after the last episode of last season). Oh well, at least a new season of True Detective is almost here.
@154, Even their language is creepy. There was a subplot they loved but it used a character. Not involved, but used.
Thanks Aeryl, I appreciate you taking the time (I tried a search but didn’t find anything).
I’m not sure I’d read those quotes and say these guys were rubbing their hands together gleefully waiting for Turner to turn 18 so they could film a rape scene with you. That seems a bit of a stretch to me and ascribes to them more ugly motives than I’d feel comfortable with (perhaps that’s just my preference for seeing the best in people). What I do see are writers none too thrilled that one of their main characters and stronger actresses is sidelined in the books and happy at the idea of finding a way to keep her in front of the audience, and to do so in a highly charged manner (beyond just this scene), playing to what they see as her abilities. I’m also not sure how saying they wanted to find a way to keep “an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore” and one the audience is “invested in” in front of the audience becomes it being all about Theon. In fact, that quote seems to state exactly the opposite.
@154
Oh ew.
Seriously, people who like Littlefinger make more sense to me than this does, which is saying a lot.
@156, Those quotes aren’t the one I’m talking about. But there are plenty of ways to keep Sansa active in the story without raping her. The “invested in” demonstrates they were going for the ick factor here.
@158
That still seems a stretch. “Invested in” means just what it means–the audience cares about this character. Given a choice of using a character (and I think it’s also a stretch to fault them for “use”– these are after all fictional constructs) the audience won’t really know or care about or using a character the audience does know well and cares about greatly, you use the latter. That’s a no-brainer, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s for good or ill–you typically give them both the pain and/or the glory. Do you have Buffy save the world, or a Potential the audience just met a few weeks ago? Do you have Buffy’s mother die, or the mother of that girl who sits two rows down in her psych class? Do you have House save the patient or that resident down the hall introduced last month? You usually use the one the audience care more about (though I think they didn’t do that enough and mishandled her character here)
I’ll happily (well, not happily because it would be sad) accept the more ugly motives ascribed to them if I see something from them that leads down that path. But I don’t think these quotes show anything but writers happy to keep a character and an actress in front of the audience in a wrought situation and it seems pretty clear their focus is on Sansa/Turner, not on Theon (whether their direction made that as clear is arguable)
these are after all fictional constructs
Regarding them as objects feeds directly into treating them as objects, which is exactly the complaint here.
You usually use the one the audience care more about
Not if your developing another character. There’s a reason Xander sleeps with Faith and not Buffy or Willow during the Zeppo. Because that moment was about Xander’s first time and the episode focuses solely on him. Having it be another prominent character he shared that with would have changed the dynamic of the story. That’s the exact problem here, is they are placing Sansa in this role, without changing the dynamic of the story.
Beyond hinging an awful lot on a single word in a spoken conversation, characters are not people–they are constructs. By that argument–they should be treated “as people” —you could (and should) fault any author for ever doing anything bad to a character. And these writers (or any others) wouldn’t be where they were if they didn’t think of them as people as they write whatever they’re writing–you think of characters as both real and not real as you write them. The former keeps them believable and allows for an emotional impact, a reader’s recognition, etc. and the latter allows you to sometimes do bad things with them.
I’m not following your second argument. Are you saying they should have had the book character here and develop her? Or are you saying they’re developing someone else?
Your example seems to support the idea about using a character the audience is invested in– Xander doesn’t sleep with some random girl and Faith doesn’t sleep with some random guy–they chose to use characters the audience cared about for that moment.
I”m not sure the choice of not having him sleep with those Buffy or Willow is simply because the episode was supposed to be all about Xander. Having him sleep with either of them doesn’t simply change the dynamic of that show; it changes the dynamic of the entire series going forward and changes the relationship amongst the core group. But again, I’m not sure I’m following you so that could not be your point at all.
I’m also not sure how you can tell they aren’t changing the dynamic of the storyline they’ve placed Sansa in, since that story is barely begun (assuming you’re talking about the Ramsay–Sansa story)
@161: She’s talking about Theon’s development. Using Jeyne in the books allows you to focus on Theon’s redemption because you are not as invested in that character; you can be concerned for her, of course, but in being a side character the focus can be on Theon (all the marriage chapters in the book were Theon/Reek POV). Furthermore, it is one more female character to choose from, so there’s more room to point out that some women are brutally abused without making it as much of a trope.
By putting Sansa in Jeyne’s place, you are taking a main character and intertwining their story in with Reek’s redemptive arc. This changes the dynamic of everything. The effect on Theon’s development is that it makes his redemptive arc MORE powerful. The effect on Sansa’s is that it makes her LESS powerful.
@159: You’re right, “invested in” means invested in, which is the point. By making it an invested in character who gets raped rather than a relative unknown means they were going for an “ick” factor, exactly like Aeryl says in 158.
@@@@@ 162/163
As I’ve said before, characterization is not a zero sum game. There’s no reason to be so reductive. Putting Sansa in this general position does not of necessity make her less powerful (having her submit to Ramsay as she does in this moment does, and I’ve said that’s a big problem. But something can be a craft issue and not be evidence of evil in one’s heart)
And again, since we don’t know what Sansa’s arc is, we have no idea if it will indeed make her less powerful. For all we know she’ll knife both Ramsay and Theon, rally the North, march south to kill Cercei and everyone else down there, and then sit her own kickass butt onto the Iron Throne. Will that happen? Of course not, but the absurdity is to make the point that none of know what this arc will or will not do to her characterization until it is seen through.
Nor do I think it’s necessarily correct that entwining Sansa in Theon’s story makes his redemption more powerful. It makes it easier (don’t have to introduce yet another new character for the audience to think about), it makes it more connected to other storyline’s, it makes the whole work more streamlined and unified (all valid concerns for writers), but considering where he comes from, I actually don’t see it making his redemption more powerful.
As for the invested in
there’s no “ick” factor in a rape if we haven’t been watching the character for a certain amount of time? I’m not sure that’s an argument critics of this scene want to be making
And having it happen to an “invested in” character does not automatically demonstrate the writers going for an “ick” factor; it demonstrates the workings of a single narrative. Nearly everything done to or by a character is done to or by an “invested-in” character because otherwise it is an anthology show and not a series narrative. You can say “they used an invested character” for literally 99% of all that happens on the show. And so that doesn’t seem to make it a very strong charge. Is it a disturbing scene? Yes. Because it’s an invested in character? No, because of what happens. And again, you can certainly argue they didn’t need to have it happen this particular way, a point I’m at least in semi-agreement with, I just can’t make the leap to dastardly intent or worse on the writer’s part as opposed to either simply a different narrative choice or a bad execution of craft (or a combination of both)
doesn’t simply change the dynamic of that show; it changes the dynamic of the entire series going forward
You’re so close, yet so far. Faith was a special guest star, not a core character of the group. They could include that in the story without shaking up the story. That’s the point.
@164: I certainly understand a feeling of wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt. I also try when I can to remind myself that I don’t always know what people’s motives are and what’s in their hearts. Were they sitting down and saying outright, “How can we piss off all the internet feminists to the greatest extent by introducing a trope that reduces one of our main characters to the role of a victim who non-challengingly submits to victimization in an episode called Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken, after doing a bait-and-switch of setting her up to be stronger and more cunning and not tolerant of crap from crazy psycho women?” Probably not in those direct words. But I think as others have tried to point out, we have enough continual evidence over the course of the show to show that these particular people show a lack of regard for women.
@150: Looks like it was a great way to make some of the biggest fans of the show decide to NOT talk about it anymore… while others don’t want to even watch it anymore.
At least one GoT podcast is done with the show after episode 6. The Mary Sue website is not the only one to make that decision.
http://podcastwinterfell.com/2015/05/21/pw-until-we-meet-again/
“Matt announces that he can no longer participate in podcasting about the TV show, due to the sensationalism presented in S5E06.
The podcast will continue with Book Reader casts on occasion and podcastwinterfell.com will remain to support the book reader community.”
Starting a new comment because of the new, slow text boxes.
Can you start an argument that their disregard is motivated by a conscious intention to perpetrate violence against women and maintain a status quo of male superiority? Are they merely victims of a society that unconsciously perpetuates these things? Is ignorance a crime we can get angry about? I think you can fairly ask these questions. The outrage here is that it did happen, and really that we are kind of saying this level of ignorance is not acceptable in 2015. And whether or not these show runners have simply completely failed to understand these things forevermore despite all feedback, whether they are just trying to make the most money by being shocking, whether or not they are think women are sex dolls, I think the point of the outrage is that it is something that manifestly occurred as the culmination of similar things that have been occurring in the show all along. And the outrage serves a purpose. Maybe these show runners will never get the point. But maybe, just maybe, future show runners will. Maybe audiences will start to get the point and be able to drive the decisions of future show runners. But none of that will happen if we just wave our hands and say they weren’t intentionally being evil, or that lots of bad things happen in the story so what’s one more bad thing?
Seriously, what is with these text boxes now?
Anyway, I said it makes Theon’s arc longer because of empathy. When we see Sansa getting raped, it affects us more, and makes us understand more why it is icky for Theon vs. someone we don’t know that well. We should maybe get equally as mad about it happen to anyone, but we as humans form stronger emotional attachments to people we interact with more, and when bad things happen to people we know, it affects us more. It makes Sansa weaker because it makes her a willing victim rather than an agent. You even said yourself there was a problem with that.
There’s also the fact of the quote above that there was a storyline they really wanted to keep but used a minor character and their solution was to put Sansa in the storyline. Were they saying they really wanted to keep a rape storyline that made Ramsay even more of a bad person? I sure as hell hope not. I can only hope that they were talking about Theon’s redemption, given the other quote about Theon being their favorite character. So it necessarily becomes–if that is true–that this is for the sake of Theon’s redemption. Using Sansa plays up that emotional attachment (so ick factor), but not for her own sake, for Theon’s. It makes no sense in story to try and legitimize their claim to the North by marrying someone accused of killing the King from whom their appointment in the North comes.
And honestly, I get cutting characters, but on the other and, Myranda is a minor character in that storyline that they totally made up, so it’s kind of a contradiction.
And it also weakens Sansa because it makes her a victim regardless of what she does in the future. If she kills Ramsay in the end, it doesn’t erase that this happened. And honestly, I don’t WANT to see Sansa have to become a killer. It’s bad enough that Arya–as much as we love seeing her storyline–is becoming a first class murderer. I only hope that her faceless man training makes her only kill when people ask for the gift, rather than because of her own motivations for revenge–but I don’t know where the show is going to go with that. But these are the children of Ned freaking Stark here…I don’t want to see the apples fall that far from the tree.
In the books, the marriage sub-plot represents the kind of political intrigue that they’ve been cutting left and right this season. Cersei’s chapters were my favorite from AFFC, and they’re doing the Cersei parts a grave injustice here. It’s also what made the show worth watching. It is after all called GAME OF THRONES, and not SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. If they think that people were watching show BECAUSE of the gore and gratuitous nudity, they were way, way wrong.
The show runners have heard about their poor portrayal of nudity, violence, rape, and women for 5 years. They are not getting it. It’s also like they can’t show a wedding without a horrible ending.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken… So end the show on a high note! Let Sansa be celebrated by the North for one minute.
Then next episode show the nasty fall out. Would that have been so hard?
@170:
Thank you! This! The season is more like episodes of “Housewives of Westeros.” Backstabbing for no point vs. trying to gain more power.
@170, Yes, I’m in total agreement with you and Braid Tug here. I got into the show because of the politics, not because of the sex and nudity. I was discussing the show and books with a non reader or watcher, and they had skepticism that a character like Sansa would ever overcome Littlefinger, saying “It doesn’t seem GRRM’s style”. It’s so frustrating the misconception the show has created about the books themselves, because of how many self proclaimed fans, like the showrunners completely miss the point of the books.
My mom FB messaged me after she watched the episode about how crazy the ending was and how Ramsay is a monster. I’m kind of interested to discuss it with her. I think on the surface she will have the same type of reaction as others have: ‘why is this specifically upsetting, when this kind of thing is the norm in game of thrones?’. Thing about my mom though, is two things: 1)We have really different tastes and attitudes about pop culture and always have. She specifically engages with pop culture to turn her mind off and be entertained, surprised, to get an emotional response, etc. She loves the type of slacpsticky comedies I despise, or fluffy things with happy endings. (I’m not saying this to say she’s wrong about the way she approaches pop culture, it’s just what she gets out of it and what she wants from it. Full disclosure: I was totally an obnoxious teen who thought my tastes were more highbrow because they were DARK, man) And on that level, yeah, it works. It was shocking, enraging, etc.
2)The other thing is that my mom has never read the books, nor does she consume a lot of this genre (although she does love Star Trek). So she doesn’t really have the same context as book readers as to why this is so jarring and what it means…nor is she constantly encountering these tropes because the type of media she usually consumes doesn’t usually have stuff like this in it (I was kind of surprised she started watching the show!).
I’m actually kind of looking forward to the discussion to see her perspective as to what she thinks the point of the show is.
Another unrelated gripe regarding the title: When I saw the title preview last week, I was all excited that we would get to see Dorne and specifically more of Alexanader Siddig. The Dorne parts are so weak, and he’s gotten 2 or 3 lines total!
Aeryl
“Faith was a special guest star, not a core character of the group. They could include that in the story without shaking up the story. That’s the point.”
Still not following this argument (possibly I’m just dim). We were discussing if authors usually choose to use “invested-in” characters rather than introduce wholly new ones. Faith appeared what, 8-12 shows prior to Zeppo, was a major focus of that whole season, and remained throughout the series. So it seems to make my point that writers choose to use invested-in characters. And my point that characterization isn’t zero-sum because the show doesn’t focus solely on Xander but tells us something about Faith as well. Clearly I’m missing your point as I don’t see what this countering.
crzydroid
“Probably not in those direct words . . . show a lack of regard for women.” That’s a phrasing I can live with
“the outrage is that it is something that manifestly occurred as the culmination of similar things that have been occurring in the show all along. And the outrage serves a purpose”
Agreed
“It makes Sansa weaker because it makes her a willing victim rather than an agent. You even said yourself there was a problem with that.”
I guess I just prefer to first assume it’s a problem of poor writing and obliviousness rather than assume they were actively, impatiently sitting around bemoaning how long it was taking Turner to turn 18 “so” they could “get this girl raped.”
In those quotes, they’re pretty direct about saying they’re using this storyline so they can keep Sansa/Turner in front of the camera.
“We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season”
“That was not going to be an option for one of our lead characters [Sansa]”
“Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it?” [Sansa]”
To disregard the clear focus on Sansa/Turner here and somehow make the above into “it’s all about Theon and not about Sansa” seems to wholly distort what they’re saying. Now, if you want to argue that choosing to use this storyline just because it has a girl and it’s in Winterfell so that’s an easy and/or logical way to conflate storylines to keep Sansa in is “lazy” (i.e. they should have worked a bit harder to come up with some other way to do it) or that they should have paused and said to themselves (“hmm, maybe using sexual violence/domination again, and against a character we’re trying to build up as strong, isn’t such a good idea”) and thus this displays an obliviousness, I can certainly see those arguments. But that’s different than arguing they were looking for just another way to rape someone in the show.
@170
Yep
I honestly can’t fault them for wanting to keep Sansa in the show, or even to condense the Theon/Sansa plots into one (even though I would have liked to see an expansion of the Vale stuff). There could be other logistical reasons too (sets, actors, etc) for doing this. That’s not the part that I see as lazy, it’s just that, as has been eloquently stated here and many other places, the laziness is more in the defaulting to a rape as drama storyline. There are lots of other ways we could still keep Sansa around, and even suffering at the hands of Ramsay, as well as bringing Theon’s ultimate reclaiming of himself. Even if ultimately they decide to have Ramsay consummate the marriage at some point (which will never be pretty), there are also other ways to shoot that and frame it and other contexts/places in the timeline they could have done it.
@174, Because while Faith is an important character, she’s not an equivalent character in stature to the core four.
To use a counterexample, Ros. I was one of many people who thought Ros’ punishment for spying on Littlefinger for Varys was going to be sent North to pretend to be Arya, before she was killed off(allegedly because Esme Bianco desired fewer nude scenes[she’s clothed when she dies, if you notice]*). Now consider this scene with Ros, instead of Sansa. I personally would still have been just as outraged, because Ros was legit my favorite character created for the show, and I loved the lower class perpsective her character provided that the books lack**, on a critical level, I wouldn’t have been as angry, because her own agency in choosing to act against Littlefinger brought her there, as a person from the lower class, she doesn’t have the class protection Sansa had that would logically protect her here. And the relationship she has with Theon from earlier seasons would have added a new dynamic to the book story I would have been intrigued about.
But instead of hanging on to the character for that purpose, she too was killed(and here is that review if your interested in my reaction) to tell us something about Joffrey we already knew. She too was a character we were invested in, but she isn’t a PRIME character like Sansa, so it would have added to her story, and wouldn’t have dismantled Sansa’s arc.
*I mention this to again demonstrate the pattern the showrunners have among feminist portions of the fandom
*This is another reason I’m peeved about this change for Sansa, her experience as Alayne is a humbling one for her, giving her a necessary perspective on being viewed as lesser than by an accident of birth, similar to Dany’s growing up in poverty, that is important to her growth as a character. But, no let’s rape her, that will “humble her”. EYEROLL
Sansa has only taken action once in the show, when she betrayed the Starks to the Lannisters out of love for Joffrey. That didn’t go well, with her father killed and the kingdom engulfed by war. The lesson she learned was not to take action, and the remainder of her story saw her complying with sucessively more awful people.
Theon is another version of this character. He betrayed the Starks to the Greyjoys out of a sense of duty to his blood family, but they had nothing except disdain for him, and all the winterfell people he grew up with were killed. He too learned to comply, and his situation has also degenerated.
The hinge of their arcs is Ramsay, the abuser. Ramsay’s gig is that you CAN”T get safety from him by complying, because he isn’t hurting you because of anything you’ve done (his father/Tywin/more sane villains roll that way), rather he’s hurting you because he enjoys it, and whatever he’s blaming you for is an excuse invented after the fact to justify it.
The rape scene serves several functions:
1. Sansa learns that obeying Ramsay doesn’t protect you from him, this may counteract her earlier “never do anything” lesson.
2. Theon learns that obeying Ramsay doesn’t mean he won’t rape your foster sister in front of you, this may counteract his earlier “never do anything” lesson.
3. Most critically, Sansa and Theon may realize that they are in the same general boat (the SS Ramsay’s Victims, with Sansa as captain, Reek as galley slave), and may begin to work together.
Regarding the humbling, probably the sickest reaction I saw to this scene was when I made the mistake of reading comments on a more mainstream site and there were several comments that were basically, “Oh, I bet Sansa wishes she were with Tyrion now”. Some of them were just kind of thoughtlessly making a contrast (which the show itself makes in that scene) but there were definitely a few that specifically brought up her rejection of him and almost taking a kind of sick pleasure in seeing her brought down.
It was definitely a ‘step away from the computer; do not engage’ moment.
I’ve now read recaps and comments on all my favorite sites (including this one) and am rolling my eyes over indignant viewer comments more than the show itself. Couldn’t we perhaps wait to see what happens over the next few episodes before making final conclusions on Sansa and her agency and ZOMG I’M QUITTING THE SHOW!? When the episode ended, that scene was still in progress. And we’re only halfway through the season.
(That all said, the Sand Snakes fight *did* look like a first dance rehearsal…. And masterminds Jamie/Bronn just waltz into the castle in broad daylight without any real plan?)
I guess my reaction is an outlier, but I am really enjoying this season of Game of Thrones. It’s SO much more entertaining than books 4 and 5. The scenes created for Arya have been so visually impressive. And I was quite surprised by all the uproar about the rape scene on the Internet because while I was watching it, I actually thought to myself, this is the most sensitively portrayed TV/ movie rape I’ve ever encountered–not the least titillating or justified while totally expected in terms of this fantasy world. And Theon’s face gave expression to how the viewers felt during this scene. I mean, if you think about it, probably most noble women in Westeros get raped by their husbands. This rape was extra degrading because Ramsey was making a point: his power move over Sansa in her own home.
Aeryl,
Thanks for the lengthy response. I’m not sure the rape scene is meant to “humble” Sansa, especially as we don’t see her response nor have we yet seen the aftermath. But it certainly isn’t meant to strengthen her, that’s for sure.
Personally, I’m fine with conflating this storyline in terms of Sansa ending up with Ramsay–it has a narrative logic and symmetry to it, solves some adaptation issues, solves the issue of losing Sansa as a focus, and the plot line has a richness of possibility (so far unmet but we’ll see) and if they’re going this route, then they need to consummate the marriage, as you’ve said. I just wish they’d executed it differently (we’re probably close in agreement on that) or that they just didn’t show it at all (also we’re probably in agreement on that), as writers make all sort of decisions on what to show or not, and it seems given all the raised sensitivity to the use of sexual violence in the show (justified in my mind), someone should have raised a hand in the writers meeting and said “Hey, given all that . . . Do we really want to . . . ” As much as we’ve gone back and forth on this, and I clearly think there’s more ambiguity about how to read the scene and the writers’ thinking than you do, I just wanted to note after almost 200 comments of “debate” that I’m actually in accord with a lot of your points to some extent. And also clarify that while I’m not agreement obviously with some of what you’re saying, I’m also not trying to “convince” you of my reading; I’m just enjoying the intelligent critical back and forth.
177. wlangendorf
That’s all true, and a good point about lessons of compliance I’d say, but why go down this specific path when there’s already such problematic history and the path isn’t necessary?
If you want this to be about Sansa getting humiliated so we can see her get stronger from that low point, or so she learns Ramsay is bad, the humiliation and the lesson don’t have to come via sexual , there’s a host of other methods available
If you want to make it partially about Theon being pushed further toward breaking his bonds, again, it doesn’t have to be about sex violence
If you want this to pull Theon and Sansa together, again, it doesn’t have to be through the vehicle of sexual humiliation.
It’s a lack of subtlety and wearisome monotony that doesn’t serve the characters or the show well
I’m not quite sure what the huge fuss is over Sansa’s wedding night. Since, she became aware she was to marry Ramsay, she knew she was going to consumate the wedding. She would have consumated the wedding with Tyrion, but he chose not to go through with it. She didn’t expect it to be in front of Theon or for it to be so rough, but she knew it was coming. Plus, nothing was shown on screen. We forget the “characters” don’t have the knowledge of us the viewers do. I imagine Sansa didn’t think Ramsay was a very nice guy with Bolton as his last name, but she didn’t know just how twisted he is. I’m not a fan of Sansa being brutalized either, but I understand why it is being done. She isn’t even really a main character in the books, so it is the “fans” fault [ :-) just kidding] she is getting treated this way. If people didn’t like her, she wouldn’t have as a big of a roll in the TV seires. It will just make it even better when she gets away or even kills one or both of the Boltons.
@182, “She isn’t even a main character in the books”
What books are you reading? The ENTIRE story is about the Stark kids, because it’s about ending the cycle of violence and retribution, and they are the ones young enough(along with Dany & Tyrion) to not have any direct involvement in perpetuating the cycle of vengeance from Robert’s Rebellion(though looking to do something about may very well be Dany’s downfall, much like Arya).
It will just make it even better when she gets away or even kills one or both of the Boltons.
Ah, another fan who has totally missed the point of the books.
@181: Billcap
To my mind, the bits that we needed to get from the scene were pretty much the 3 listed above. (Theon and Sansa learn in the starkest possible terms that obeying Ramsay is no protection from him, and the experience makes them contemplate cooperation with one another, despite their mutual dislike).
No matter what, this is going to be a grim scene. It has to be, because it has to outweigh the previous consequences of action (Sansa has to hate whatever happens more than getting her dad killed and getting married to Joffrey. Theon has to hate whatever happens more than betraying his loving foster family and being rejected by his blood family, becoming a murderer and a turncoat and being tortured by Ramsay)
I’m not exactly drawing a blank, but I’m having trouble thinking of anything that doesn’t raise the same issues as “Ramsay rapes Sansa, makes Theon watch.” How about “Ramsay makes Sansa rape Theon”? “Ramsay makes Sansa and Theon have sex while he watches?” We need to traumatize Theon and Sansa (worse than their horrific pasts) in one 5 minute scene, which should also make them aware of their similarities. Its a tall order, and as an added caveat, it is undesirable that the audience come out of it hating Sansa or Theon (so no “Ramsay makes Sansa and Theon feed infants to his dogs”).
Ah, another fan who has totally missed the point of the books.
Aeryl, I like reading many of your posts, except the ones where you misinterpret your personal opinion for fact. I don’t believe you have exclusive insight into the point of the books, so maybe just respect that other readers and watchers also have their views.
Just a thought.
Okay folks, a gentle reminder that we’re here to talk about books, not each other. The discussion about this controversial episode has been very civil so far — let’s keep it that way! Thanks.
Yes, Faith was in a bunch of Buffy episodes but as a supporting character, as in there to support the stories of the main characters. That way the audience can focus on the main characters’ story growth. The showrunners could have used a supporting character for Theon’s redemption arc, whether introducing a new character or using an already established one (I actually like the idea of using Ros as the fake Stark, I think that could’ve worked) but instead they chose to hijack Sansa instead. That’s what pisses me off more than anything (more than the rape actually (although I am very tired of them using rape in the show)), the fact that they put Sansa in this storyline when it makes no sense whatsoever.
Why go thru all the trouble of giving Sansa some agency last season if all they were going to do was take it away this season? Speaking of which, why have Sansa rescue LF last season when he stupidly (and very un-LF-like) threw Lysa out the moon door with no back up plan just so LF could turn around and use Sansa as a pawn (yet again) in his Winterfell scheme that makes no sense anyways? It makes Sansa look stupid and LF incompetent (which we all know isn’t true). It’s like D&D know nothing about writing consistently.
Also, apparently LF got his power of teleportation back, lol.
One last thing, people keep mentioning that the show has too many characters and needs to conserve those already introduced. Then why keep making up new characters for your storylines? Instead of pulling a character like Myranda outta their ass they could’ve introduced a FArya (character count would’ve been exactly the same) or use an already established supporting character, like Ros if they hadn’t killed her off just to shock the audience (character count would be smaller).
If I could make a non-rape based comment, that was Jaime’s plan???? And how do 2 obvious imposters get all the way into a secure water garden where royalty are walking around with no challenges, no barriers, no nothing? And the place is so small that they find Myrcella in 5 minutes?
That Dorne scene was the most amateurish of any I’ve seen on what is an amazing show the last few years. clumsy fight blocking, bad editing, etc…
Apparently you can ride ashore and then just waltz into the inner courtyards of Dorne with no problem. And don’t get me started on the teenage mutant ninja sand snakes…. brutal.
@188, My stance that the show can’t do combat, which I pointed out during that atrocious attack on the Unsullied, is demonstrated to be correct.
And @185, My insight is not “exclusive”, trust me, plenty of other people share it, but it’s not wrong either.
I thought there have been some excellent combat staged on the show. The Mountain vs the Viper, Bronn vs. Vale Knight, Jaime vs. Brienne, Brienne vs. the Hound, Blackwater Bay, The battles at Castle Black, assault on the Wall, I found all to be exciting and well done.
So not sure you can make a sweeping generalization that the show cannot do combat, but just my opinion.
The Mountain vs the Viper, Bronn vs. Vale Knight, Jaime vs. Brienne, Brienne vs. the Hound, Blackwater Bay
And aside from Brienne vs The Hound, those are ones not created for the show. Those they tend to do well on, understanding the audiences investment in seeing them portrayed well, which also goes into the Brienne vs The Hound one, LOTS of investment in that.
Things definitely seem to have taken a dive this season for sure.
The Dorne story line is absurd because its main character is Arianne, whom D&D in their “wisdom” decided not to cast.
On a different aspect of the show: By removing the reasons behind some of these bad political decisions of Cersei, they are makes her look incredibly stupid.
They allowed her to re-create a finical religious order just to get rid of an unwanted fiancée and daughter-in-law. When she is guiltily of many crimes, AND she knows that one of her accomplices has become super religious.
Another thing that is makes her look stupid is her ready agreement to make Littlefinger Warden on the North. WTH?
Focusing the trial on Loras, then Margery lying – it makes the show seem… rather homophobic. The queen being arrested for adultery – massive crime. Being arrested for covering for her brother? Weak ground for arresting a queen. Cersei should be terrified, rather than smug. Tomman is looking like the world’s weakest king in history.
The only good thing currently is by ignoring the Riverlands, we should not get a Saltplanes attack.
But really some Freys need to start dying. But the only one we’ve seen this season is Bolton’s wife. Sorry, I want Frey warriors and sons to die.
I don’t actually agree with a poster wayyyy upthread that Ramsay’s cruelty is a juvenile attempt to prove himself to his father. He loves every aspect of it and is inventive and prolific.
Ramsay is a legitimate true psychopath, and one of his orders was disobeyed by his utterly controlled minion Reek, as Sansa had enough power to do so then. What does that mean? A power display, effective and painful, is required
I think, given his character, he acted with relative restraint. In no way for a normal person, and I will be very happy when he is dead, but well within keeping for his particular set of triggers and reactions.
Just to clarify, the order I mentioned was the one Ramsay gave Theon to lead her by the arm to the wedding. Clearly she must have refused and he must have failed – psychopathic grounds for punishment
So, what I’m getting from a couple of the “anti-Sansa-rape” arguments here isn’t that they’re upset that a woman was raped, but they would have preferred if it was a less-popular character, to optimize another character’s development?
I think that line of thought is more disturbing than the scene in the show. You’d think the argument would be “no rape please”.
Rape happens in real life. Consequences to rape happen in real life for everyone involved. Rape happened a lot more in medieval times than it does now. I’m very interested to see how the arc plays out, and will reserve judgement until then.
It’s too bad the vast majority of the rape conversation around GoT has focused on how it would have been better if a different, less worthwhile woman would have been raped instead of using it to open conversations about how “yes, that was horrible, it’s still happening to women today and you can do something about it.”
So is it “a couple” or the “vast majority” of the 195 comments prior to yours you are accusing of saying rape is okay for some and not others? Because that isn’t being said. Some suggest that Ramsay’s wedding night in the books was under a difference set of circumstances than Sansa’a on the TV show. Literally no one said it was okay to rape Jeyne. Instead, people are upset that the showrunners trumpet newer, sneakier, more powerful Sansa only to once again use it as an opportunity to show rape and torture of a woman and knock Sansa back to a victim.
And the assertion that rape is real and it’s Game of Thrones presenting accurate history has already been discussed at łength up thread and in the post, so it’s disingenuous to come off as somehow morally superior when your argument is flawed. Sorry, but the tone was very insulting
#198 unpublished by moderator. Feel free to restate your opinion, but please don’t be condescending or insulting to others if you’d like to participate in the discussion.
My apologies if my last comment cut too close to (or was over) the line. Let me take a second stab at this:
I have never addressed the topic in terms of “comments”. My perception is that a couple of the “anti-Sansa-rape” arguments are making up a “vast majority” of the rape conversation.
Game of Thrones has chosen to enter a discussion about rape, and it has every right to do so. Some people may disagree with how they have diverged from the book, and they have every right to do so. They can argue for their favourite form and victim of rape, and I’m not being the least bit facetious. Do I think that’s the best use of this audience? No.
Discussing how Jeyne is the better literary rape victim that should have been carried over to the show smacks of deciding “which lady’s skirt was shorter”, and doesn’t place the discussion into a healthy context. If we’re claiming to be outraged by the rape, any rape, we shouldn’t turn the discussion into a vote over whether Jeyne or Sansa “deserved raping” more, or which provided the “greater good”, or even “lesser evil”. Either framing is counter productive.
There is no degree of right or wrong to rape, and it shouldn’t be implied in even an offhand way.
We are not using this as a vehicle to legions GoT fans that otherwise wouldn’t have been available for a conversation about rape, but instead are focusing on which character they should have raped, and how it’s going to dilute Sansa’s development. I think the Mary Sue is perfectly placed at the junction of pop culture and human rights to host this conversation, and their response makes me a little sad.
Opportunity lost.
If you take a look over at Leigh’s re-read there is plenty of indignation over the way Jeyne is treated in this book and the use of rape.
At any rate, I think you are misreading the issue. Nobody is saying rape shouldn’t be portrayed/discussed in fiction. Nobody is clamoring to watch Jeyne get raped, either. I have not seen anybody say, “I don’t like this scene, because Jeyne should have been raped instead” in the sense that they are only upset about the fact that their names are different.
It’s a more meta issue; the fact that Jeyne and Sansa are being treated as interchangeable in their circumstances, as well as the fact that since they cut out the Jeyne/fArya arc, they still felt the need to include the rape at all even though by using Sansa instead, that inherently changes the dynamic of that story. It’s more a discussion of, ‘why do we need to have the rape at all’ (a discussion which could also be had regarding Jeyne if this discussion were about the books). I guess my point is, people would still be upset even if the Jeyne aspect didn’t exist and hadn’t been raped in the books.
And then there is the whole Theon aspect. It makes a little more sense for the scenes with Jeyne to be primarily about Theon, as she is a minor character in Theon’s story (not that this makes using her rape as motivation for him a great thing either). But taking a character that DOES have her own story and folding it into another one says something about the way they view the female characters.
Unlike real life, authors/creators have full control over what their characters do and what happens to them, so I think it’s perfectly appropriate to discuss those choices and what they may be saying (intentionally or otherwise).
Ramsay
I see where you’re coming from Lisamarie, but consider this: this isn’t the book anymore. They’re wildly different in both timelines and substance.
They decided to marry Sansa to Ramsay instead, and the way they’ve portrayed Ramsay it would make no sense if she was the only person in his life he didn’t hurt. It is perfectly within character for him to do so.
It also fits perfectly within Sansa’s arc to have to overcome this tragedy. Consider her two Lannister relationships, and how her character is explored through how she deals with her various forced pairings.
We’ve already seen her go into “enough is enough” mode, and her prodding of Theon isn’t Theon’s redemption arc, but her coming into her own. Theon has no agency, exactly where Sansa was at the start. Her trying to engage him speaks more of her new sense of agency than his redemption. We’re getting to see a strong Sansa, growing stronger daily, if we bother to look.
This entire series is a musical chairs game where they throw 2-3 characters together and explore those dynamics. Sansa isn’t being folded into another character’s arc, they are taking their turn together on the dance card.
Anyway, people are routinely murdered on the show, religious executions, domestic violence against men, women and children, child soldiers turned into eunochs, slavery, layer upon layer of incest, prostitution and animal cruelty. Why is rape the unviewable crime?
Maybe I’ve changed my mind about TMS’s position, and just dropping the show was the best decision they could make. Maybe the best way to show contempt for the writers’ decision was to no longer give the show a voice on their site. They can focus their energy other battles.
I’m still not tracking this whole “folded in” rhetoric. The character plots are merging; one is not necessarily being given primacy over the other. At least at this point; there may be an argument to make about that down the road, but as we haven’t seen the arc play out, we have no idea. To simply immediately dismiss Sansa as automatically being the “lesser” storyline seems to be the sort of thing the critics of this choice would be hesitant to make
And while replacing Jeyne with Sansa does a automatically change to dynamic of lots of storylines, it doesn’t change Ramsay’s character, nor should it. That would make no sense. He isn’t going to suddenly be submissive, or endearing, or cuddly. If you choose to have Sansa marry him, then some plot points fall into line as a result–you have a consummation based on setting, character, and plot, and that consummation does not go gently based on already shown character. Now whether we needed to see that moment is another question (I happen to think the answer is no).
I’d also say it’s a stretch to criticize the writers for seeing the women as “interchangeable” because they did what is always done, almost always must be done, in adaptations, which is to conflate characters. If the criticism isn’t the conflation but that they are put into the exact same scenes with no changes based on differences in character, again, it’s far too early to tell. And in any case, one could argue they have changed the circumstances in that scene is more gentle with Sansa than with Jenye if I recall correctly. All that said, the writers don’t do themselves or the show any favors, and certainly show if not a conscious problem one of obliviousness, by going after this scene with all its inherent problems and subsequent criticisms (some of which I agree with and some I don’t, but certainly all could have been foreseen) with yet another attempted rape with Gilly, leading to her being rescued and the near rape being used to lead to the great moment of intimacy (because what women doesn’t want to have sex after she is nearly raped and after she is sponging blood, sweat, tears, and maybe some urine off a guy who hasn’t showered in who knows how long?) and as a spur to a possible departure. Some times you can only shake your head and sigh . . .
They decided to marry Sansa to Ramsay instead, and the way they’ve portrayed Ramsay it would make no sense if she was the only person in his life he didn’t hurt. It is perfectly within character for him to do so.
First of all, note the bolded. This is a decision made by the writers and one that is totally legitimate to criticize.
And they way they’ve portrayed, it would be perfectly in character for him to find some other way to torment Sansa and Theon. Remember how in Season Three, he befriended Theon? Remember how he took pleasure into luring Theon into betraying his fellow Ironborn? There were a thousand and one ways the show could have had Ramsay torment Sansa that didn’t involve raping her. And those way would have made much more sense within the story as presented.
Anyway, people are routinely murdered on the show, religious executions, domestic violence against men, women and children, child soldiers turned into eunochs, slavery, layer upon layer of incest, prostitution and animal cruelty. Why is rape the unviewable crime?
Number one, yes those things happen. But they are rarely shown. For all the cries of “Thenis” since this controversy hit, despite multiple known instances of castration happening within the show, it’s only been graphically shown once. And that scene included bonus boobs for all those male gazers out there. Even in this past episode, a beloved character who’s story arc has been vastly changed so show fans wouldn’t get a bad taste in their mouth about loving him, was threatened with castration and murder, yet the writers also decided to have him save himself from such a fate with his wits, while also allowing him a chance to brag about his penis size.
Contrast the care and consideration castration has been given, with the way rape is treated. And then remember 1 in 3 women are raped. So if you know 9 women, 3 of them have been raped. How many people do you know are victims of sibling incest? Been conscripted into being a child soldier? Sold into sex slavery? Roasted alive by dragons, or beheaded? Does that not help you to understand why rape is viewed with greater trepidation among this shows fans? And don’t act like this show hasn’t received it’s fair share of criticism for how it portrays prostitution and sex workers, like how they erased the fact that the women in the Volantene brother were slaves, or what the show did to Ros.
Of course everything that appears for a writer is a decision. That seems self-evident. And certainly it’s legitimate to criticize any author’s choice; I don’t believe I’ve ever said otherwise. My point was that once that choice was made, certain things fall naturally into place. We will just have to continue to disagree on the character logic of Ramsay acting in any other way in such a scene, which pretty much has to take place, off-screen or on. Or on whether your example of Ramsay nicelyenticing Theon to turn him (before of course castrating him, starving him, humiliating him, and robbing him of all identity and humanity amidst all his flaying and slaying) is truly analogous to his position with regard to Sansa.
certain things fall naturally into place
But your argument that what has happened is a natural progression falls apart. Sansa is not Jeyne. Part of the reason Jeyne is treated so terribly by Ramsay, who in the books AND show, has demonstrated the ability to know when to play nice, is because Ramsay knows she’s a fraud, and it hits him where it hurts, his own sense of inadequacy. He’s the legitimized son of Roose Bolton, but he STILL can’t have an actual highborn wife. That’s no longer an issue with Sansa. And Jeyne KNOWS exactly what kind of man Ramsay is, which indicates that a girl held prisoner is a brothel has better spies than LITTLEFINGER. There is so much that is unnatural about the way the characters have been forced to carry out this storyline, that for you to assert this is the natural conclusion to the writers choices is absurd.
ooh ooh! skipping the last few comments and skipping the long winded thought process that got me here, I think I see something now.
I’m going skip over how I got here, but I got here: Littlefinger gave Sansa to the Boltons knowing that she wasn’t going to overpower them, but was going to be a .. well pretty much a sacrificial lamb.
Why would he do that? Because no sacrifice is too dear if it promotes his agenda. And his agenda is to foment chaos. And getting the entire rest of the north pissed at the Boltons who currently hold the capital of the north…well that can lead to a lot of chaos.
Yes, yes, I think I’m right. But we shall see.
ab·surd
/əbˈsərd,əbˈzərd/
adjective
1. (of an idea or suggestion) wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate.
Billcap’s premise can hardly be considered wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate. What might be considered inappropriate or illogical is to continue to attribute traits to a TV show’s character when it has so clearly and wildly diverged from the novel.
Ramsay clearly has a hole inside of him, and his immediate goal in trying to fill it is to be formally recognized and respected as a man of noble birth. From his actions on the show, he’s frequently and systematically applied the power he has to break down his victims mentally, then physically. This is true of anyone in his sphere of influence save his father, who he clearly still sees as his base of power and legitimacy.
The intensity of these behaviours clearly increases when other nobles of similar age enter his territory. Theon is a mirror Ramsay could not stand, and he’s shattered horribly. Theon is now the broken, unwanted and powerless son Ramsay can use to measure how far he’s come, and convince himself of his own power by having completely stripped it from another. Post-transformation, Ramsay feels pretty good about himself.
Enter Sansa.
She’s a true noble, and at this point in her arc Sansa’s starting to show true agency and the better qualities of her mother. Ramsay is literally playing house in her home, and Sansa isn’t afraid to make him feel unwelcome there. They mention several times she has many friends still in the north, and I doubt he’s unaware the people love and respect her and her family. Oh, and there’s a true born son coming soon as well; I’m sure that’s helping his self esteem.
I find nothing unnatural about Ramsay’s handling of Sansa based on his previous behaviour. He’s been mentally torturing her using Theon and any other tactic available in private and even in front of his parents. He wants to marry her to further legitimize his nobility and hold on power, and he wants to prove himself “better” than Sansa in the only way he knows how and frequently turns to: he exercises power over her.
I hope we can all agree rape isn’t a crime of sex, but of power and control. Everything Ramsay has done up until now, and especially after he’s “won” the wedding, screams he would take what’s normally a happy part of a union and turn it into the most torturous, most arduous display of dominance possible. This twists the knife in both soul and body, and it must be delicious for Ramsay. He’s paying her back for everything (he perceives) she and those like her have denied him.
Ramsay’s behaviour on the show stands as consistent. He is not evolving. If anything he is regressing, and it is my belief Sansa and Theon will outgrow, overcome and overshadow Ramsay before the season is out. I think she’ll win out her full agency and Theon will be redeemed in some manner that contributes to their mutual benefit. But we’ll have to wait and see.
aeryl, As much as I’ve tried to keep a respectful stance toward your point of view, much as I disagree with some of it (and only some) I have to say you tend to treat your highly subjective (by nature) reading of events and motivation as a bit too much akin to “The” singularly and objectively correct interpretation. I’ll just remind you our personal interpretations are just that–personal interpretations–and not Answers Handed Down From On High, despite one’s own personal surety. Whatever your view, an argument that a guy who has flayed more than one person alive, who has hunted people for sport, who has shown himself in multiple occasions over much time to be a psychopathic sadistic animal who trulyrevels in handing out pain and death, the argument that this guy might not be all that gentle with a woman he had married out of expediency and only expediency, is hardly “absurd”. Such rhetoric doesn’t help your argument; it undermines it, since it hardly expresses an openness or precision of mind which one hopes is used in interpretation of any work. I’m not going to go back and forth as I think we’ve pretty much exhausted the topic (tho ugh maybe something new will arise, who knows), just say what I said above. We can agree to disagree on this scene, a resolution that often occurs when arguing over an artistic/creative manner
209 Scott,
That’s a nicely put, sharp reading of Ramsay’s character and motivation (much better than my off the cuff “psycho!”)
So what’s “natural” about Littlefinger’s complete lack of intelligence on the Boltons?
What’s “natural” about Ramsay defying seasons worth of cynical maneuvering(all his terrible actions, aside from hunting women for sport, were for a purpose) now that he’s finally achieved what he desperately wants, thrown out the window for no purpose. He’s always demonstrated that he knows what he can and can’t get away with. ALL psychopaths do. Ted Bundy has detailed the many opportunities to prey on women he passed on, because the situation wasn’t secure enough for him to ensure he could get away with it. If Ramsay had truly reached the point of a Bundy-level regression frenzy you say he has, he wouldn’t have the wherewithal to mentally torment Sansa by showing her dead bodies, he’d just be reveling in massacre. He knows he can get away with torturing Jeyne because nobody cares about the Fake Stark. This is not the case with Sansa. He knows she has support in the North. He knows what he is doing is something he can’t get away with yet. So naturally he should be on his best behavior until after Stannis is defeated, luring Sansa into a false sense of security until he can finally unleash his predilections without consequence. But the creators would rather abuse a beloved character, than actually consider what would be “natural” here.
It’s not your suppositions I’m labeling absurd, let’s be clear, it’s the idea that what has happened is in any way, a “natural” consequence.
Thanks Billcap! Sadly, I’m the bastard son of a vassal lord in a northern kingdom (Alberta, Canada), so I understand Ramsay’s frustration all too well.
Perhaps, if he would have had access to Super Smash Brothers as an outlet for his frustration too, he would have been called “Master of Yoshi” instead of “Bastard of Bolton”.
“He knows he can get away with torturing Jeyne because nobody cares about the Fake Stark. This is not the case with Sansa. He knows she has support in the North. He knows what he is doing is something he can’t get away with yet.”
Oh, is Ramsay doing something to Sansa? I can’t believe that. He looked so much in love at the wedding, and every time I see him walking with her he’s so courteous and deferential to his Lady. A right proper Lord that one is. I may not care at all for his father, but Lord Ramsay will make a fine leader.
I’m so glad Lady Stark has found a handsome northerner to treat her right. She deserves it after all the terrible things that has happened to her family.
Now pardon me m’Lady. As much as I like to argue Boltons and Starks, I think we can all agree that either is better than letting some southern king try and impose his rule on the north. We can come together and push out the outsiders, then perhaps have a reckoning at home if we still feel disunity after a loyalty-building war.
Winter is coming!
@214, “So where is Lady Bolton, she used to walk the castle everyday, talking to the wash women, greeting the servants, praying in the Godswood, and looking at the spot where her poor brother fell. Now she’s out so rarely, and only for her new Lord to show her some ghastly piece of torture he’s done, I truly pray to the Old Gods he’s not doing something terrible to her.”
This also isn’t the books, which have all the North in attendance. This is just Bolton’s diehards, and serving people, and as the High Sparrow pointed out, there are more of them, than nobles. It’s the serving people, like the old lady, that are who Ramsay has to be putting on his show for, and they are the ones who know exactly what he’s doing, because now he’s not letting any of the wait on her anymore.
I’d say any time you have to write something like “aside from hunting women for sport” you’re in a troublesome area in terms of one’s argument . . .
Okay, I think I should intercede here, since I’m not sure that continued debate/sparring on these particular points is particularly productive, at this juncture. At a certain point, it might be best to just agree to disagree and move on, rather than circling around and arguing semantics–thanks!
@215
“…they are the ones who know exactly what he’s doing, because now he’s not letting any of the wait on her anymore.“
You’re right! I haven’t delivered soup to Lady Bolton in a week, he must be serial-raping his wife and torturing her horribly, despite the fact she looks perfectly fine whenever she appears in public. We should rise up against the Warden of the North and start a civil war right before an invading force lands on us. Ha ha! I’m just kidding. Please don’t report me to the Warden.
Perhaps she’s with child already? It would be dangerous for her to be out and about in those critical first weeks, and it could explain her being a tad moody. Oh what a joyous event! I’m so happy for them! If it wasn’t for that invading army we must all be preoccupied with, I’d say this is finally the start of happy times for us again. Still, Lord Bolton is a strong man and we can rally around him to see us through to a still-free north.
Dirty little secret: the writers probably aren’t planning for Ramsay to win. They’re likely to plant in a tragic flaw, and I have a feeling it’s a miscalculation surrounding his ability to get away with abusing Sansa.
He can’t process everything happening with the incoming true born, disrespect from Sansa and the tenuous position in the north compounded by an upcoming invasion, so he’s turning to the only thing he knows: applying power brutally to affirm he’s in control. It’s pushed him in a direction that will ultimately be the downfall of the Boltons’ plans in the north.
I think I agree with you, dear moderator. One of my main points was that discussion about the rape that wasn’t about the rape was time ill-spent, and I’m now I’ve fallen into the trap as well. I have other fish to fry, perhaps seasoned with some fresh dwarf penis if availabe.
I shall close with this comment about the “absurdity” of Ramsay’s choice to rape Sansa, which is what drew me to linger.
I think we’ve proven it wasn’t absurd for him to do it, or the writers to writers to write it. Even if we were to subscribe to the idea that Bundy would pass on opportunities because he didn’t feel his position was secure enough, he isn’t making those comments from a secret location where he’s still planning crimes. He was captured because he made mistakes, and his insistance on directing his own trial defence has been clearly identified as his irrational need to be in control overriding what would have been a smarter course of action.
If Bolton is like Bundy as you suggest, what he’s doing right now perfectly follows what Bundy actually did, as opposed to what he might have said in an interview. Using your own real-life model how the writers have things proceeding certainly isn’t absurd, and opens the door for the tragic flaw of many psychopaths to usher his doom.
That being said, I appreciate your position and thank you for a lively dialogue. You had me thinking, and I really dove a lot more into the characters and stories because of it. Until next time, cheers.