Yes, but would Khal Moro’s bloodrider still sleep with her?
That very unexpected ending was subversive for more than one reason. And it confirmed something about Melisandre that was only hinted at and and gives us a new perspective on a character who’s been working her magic since well before the second season.
This recap is dark and full of spoilers.
Spoilers for the episode and currently published George R. R. Martin novels are discussed in the review and fair game in the comments. We highly suggest not discussing early preview chapters, but if you must, white it out. Have courtesy for the patient among us who are waiting and waiting (and waiting) for The Winds of Winter. Play nice. Thanks.
IsJonSnowDead.com is still listing the bastard as dead. (IsJonSnowDead.com is an actual site, you guys! Go there for a bitter little chuckle.)
When the episode was nearing the 50-minute mark and we were watching Melisandre disrobe yet again, I thought for sure this was it: Melisandre was going to save Jon Snow with the mighty power of her HBO-worthy tits. But I was so wrong!
Is The Red Priestess’ magic actually all in her choker? How long has she been around? Is she stripped of all power when she’s stripped of her bling? There was something a bit satisfying about knowing the beauty she uses to seduce men is all a grand trick. But you don’t need to be four centuries old to know that some kings are easily swayed by a pretty face. Melisandre’s secret advanced age makes her seem wiser—she’s seen things whippersnappers like Jon Snow couldn’t believe. And perhaps that’s why it was so easy for her to have Shireen burned, to put how many others to the flame. She’s got her eyes locked on the longer game.
But does she have enough magic in her to bring back Jon Snow? Does she have to go on a journey of her own to believe once more in the Red God’s power? I feel a bit frustrated that Game of Thrones is milking this Jon Snow resurrection for all its worth. But I’m not surprised. When do we think Jon will be revived? I’m going to guess the end of next episode, if only because Jon’s body can’t stay that fresh at the Wall.
I’m immensely relieved that Ghost didn’t end up like Grey Wind. I’m surprised none of Jon’s murderers sunk so low. That howling was so mournful, poor pup.
While I was surprised by the eerie ending, I wasn’t in love with this episode overall. It was a perfectly fine next chapter. It was mutton worthy of Ser Davos.
If you’ve read A Dance with Dragons, a lot of this hour quickly answered what happens immediately after. And that’s fine, but I feel like the bigger surprises are yet to come.
So, yes, Sansa and Theon survived that jump from Winterfell’s walls. What was interesting was how quickly—and bloodily—Brienne and Pod (Pod!) saved the day. I had hoped that would happen and it did. I loved Pod helping Sansa with her vow to accept Brienne’s sword.
The House of Black and White is not yet done with Arya. Come on, little girl, remember your dancing lessons with Syrio. See, this is where Westeros’ lack of Karate Kid movies works against the assassin-in-training. This is pretty classic schooling here, albeit with a magical bent. When Arya beats the Waif “blindfolded,” she’ll be back in the Faceless God’s favor. And I can’t wait because that Waif is damn mean.
What happened after Dany’s abduction by an unknown Khal was definitely the next chapter I was most waiting for.
While Tyrion and Varys take a walking tour of Meereen and survey the giant mess of political strife and, oh hey, a harbor full of burned ships, Dany had to suffer some degrading comments about her body at the hands of two bloodriders. What, you thought Game of Thrones could go an hour without a rape threat? Yeah, yeah, I know. It’s how things were back in the days of dragons and ice zombies and rampant patriarchal societies.
I guess I could say that even Game of Thrones seems kind of bored of rape threats on Game of Thrones because they weren’t lingered on overlong. So I guess that’s progress?
Anyway, I kind of liked Khal Moro. He wasn’t a total idiot and might’ve had a tiny bit of charm. But he’s no Khal Drogo and his bloodriders are a bunch of stooges. Much scarier than Khal Moro? Khal Moro’s wives. Whether simple jealousy or foresight, they knew Moro falling for Dany would bring no good, so they’re probably right now preparing a parade float upon which to send Dany to Dosh Khaleen. The former Khal’s widows who live there are thought to be seers; they predicted that Dany and Drogo’s son would be The Stallion That Mounted The World. What new prophecies might they have for Dany? Will Dany herself be gifted with sight?
To go forward you must go back, indeed…
Final thoughts:
- NOOOOOOOOOO. Doran, Tristayne, and Areo Hotah are all dead, but we’re still not done with the worst part of season five! Since Ellaria and her yawn-inducing girls can’t be the new rulers of Dorne, I suppose this is where we meet another boring Martell: Quentyn.
- Sparrows gonna sparrow, but I’d rather watch Margaery in her cell than anything in Dorne.
- Ramsay mourning Miranda in his own, messed-up Ramsay Bolton way was kind of hilarious.
- Cersei’s pretty defeated, but her and Jaime were sounding like vintage Lannisters, what with their “fuck everyone who isn’t us” schtick. I expect great and foolish things from these two.
- Thorne is pretty cavalier for a treasonous asshole. It didn’t quite seem that he has that many more supporters than Jon Snow. Or at least murdering a Lord Commander in cold blood isn’t a good way to win influence. Ask the traitors at Craster’s Keep.
- The first person to agree that “it’s a sad fucking statement if Dolorous Edd is your only chance” is Dolorous Edd.
- Next week: Bran Stark returns from Puberty-Beyond-the-Wall!
Game of Thrones airs Sunday nights at 9PM E/PT on HBO.
Theresa DeLucci is a regular contributor to Tor.com covering TV, book reviews and sometimes games. She’s also gotten enthusiastic about television for Boing Boing. Send her a raven through Twitter.
Yes, Ellaria. The perfect way to avenge your lover is by staging a coup against his family and murdering his brother and nephew. What was Tristayne doing there anyway? Wasn’t he on the boat with to King’s Landing? Did Jamie turn around and let him off?
It’s weird, but I kind of felt like this would’ve been a good finale episode last season. The stories it touched on ended on nice cliffhangers that would’ve been good fodder for discussion in between seasons. The Dorne stuff felt like they were wiping the slate clean from last season to start fresh.
I’m really excited for this season, since we’re now completely beyond the books (the Iron Islands and some of Aria’s stuff aside). It’s nice to finally be in a place where you have no idea what’s coming Yes, they have deviated from the books before, but they still led to the same major plot points. Now, we have no known plot points to look to. Exciting!
Was this the first season without a cold open? I haven’t gone back to rewatch recently, but didn’t the other first episodes of each season have a cold open before the titles?
Finally, did anyone else get a strong Monty Python Spanish Inquisition vibe from Khal Moro and his bloodriders? I half expected the Khal to go through the list and then ask them to bring her in again. That seemed like a straight up homage.
So, Dorne had some kind of Glorious Revolution, where the people (or at least just the guards and the Sand Snakes) decided that they were fed up with the pacifist policies of the Martell clan and decided to oust them from power (this being GoT, no exile was possible, only death). So House Martell is officially dead, and the people don’t care about it. Because they want revenge for the murder of Martells, but only if they’re named Ellia or Oberyn. But there’s no Parliament or anything like a council of lords or something similar holding power. Just the widow and daughters of the dead lord’s brother. They decide what policy Dorne will follow because … just because. And not enough emphasis was given on how the Dornish Glorious Revolution happened. Really, in real life this kind of thing started wars and whole shows could be devoted to this. In D&D’s GoT, this is just an afterthought when the characters are no longer needed. In the books, Dorne is at war with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms (because of Aegon). No Aegon in GoT? We’ll invent our own ways to make the war happen!
3. Ryamano
They don’t even have that much legitimacy. Ellaria was Oberyn’s paramour not his wife. He was never married, and all of the girls have different mothers. This is the worst thought out revolution ever, and the only reason it could work is if the show’s internal logic cares about Dorne about as much as most reviewers do.
Oh Liam Cunningham your Davos is the what truly keeps me going. Someone get that man some Mutton.
We have already Mel naked before with out the necklace on, so does the necklace project the glamour and we just see what we expect to see when it’s not on, or did the show runners drop the ball.
The Sansa and Brienne scene was really convienient but anything that makes Brienne that happy is ok with me.
Khal Moro may not have Khal Drogo like swagger but I liked him. Hope he figured out Team Dany is where he needs to be before Drogon shows up and eats him.
Meanwhile in Dorne, meh, but those water gardens sure are pretty.
Looking forward to seeing Bran again next week and his continued evolution into a tree
Dorne makes my head hurt. All sworn guards just stand there while the Prince is bleeding out? All of them? And how did the two Sand Snakes get on a ship that was taking Myrcella’s body to KL and was anchored off the coast (and, yes, showrunners confirmed it is off the KL coast) – the Sand Snakes have WoT type traveling ability? At this point, I’m all set with killing everyone and making Dorne go away for the rest of the show.
Re Melissandre – she has the magical ability to cast glamours and (if the books can be believed) implements are useful in helping the illusion be maintained. So I’m not sure that the necklace has power per se – it may just be a tool (i.e., people think it is part of her magic and so it is.)
I have to confess I was expecting another book deviation when they were abusing Dany but they actually stuck to the Dothraki policy on how to treat a widowed Khalessi – I was pleasantly surprised.
When I opened my browser this morning, there was a link to an article about how “Melisandre’s true form shocks everyone” and I was like, THAT’S the big shocking thing for this episode, and not Fauxllaria and the Sand Fakes f&*$ing killing DORAN MARTELL and Trystane and Hotah???? To a book reader, I feel like that scene was an episode 9-worthy finalé. But as my wife pointed out, it’s probably just the show’s way of dumping the Dorne plot, since they already screwed it up so bad and made it unnecessary in the last season. @1: In the show, Trystane was never on the boat in the first place, since the whole Dorne plot was a complete 180 from the books. Trystane was never sent to King’s Landing, and the Sand Fakes certainly were never sent as ambassadors to Westeros. The thing that kind of bugs me about the way the show handled Dorne is that now Oberyn’s line about how the Dornish don’t kill children is unequivocally false. I mean, they kill their own relatives now, apparently.
I don’t know if I liked the part about Pod helping her as much. I mean, I totally get the INTENDED sentiment…she’s cold and weak and shocked and whatever else, but I feel like on top of everything else they’ve done to Sansa’s character, it’s just making her weak again and not able to remember the lines that she’s been rehearsing since birth with her septa.
I think my favorite scene was actually when Tyrion was trying to give money to the mother, and Varys is all like, “She thinks you want to eat her baby.”
As for the Melisansbra reveal–I wonder if that WILL end up being a spoiler for the books (I’m not whiting this because note: it is speculation) just because the books had more with her casting illusions (Mance Rayder, Rattleshirt, etc.). In all, it seems like a pretty common trope (I’m thinking along Disney’s Snow White/Beauty and the Beast lines here, but also kind of fairy tales in general). Like you said, it explains a lot about her magic and her goals.
Loved your review, as always.
How do you know Melisandre is actually old, and doesn’t just look old because of the toll her magic takes on her body?
NOOOOOOO, DORAN!!!! I WANTED MORE BASHIR!!!
@1 – AyeJaySedai: That WAS the ship in King’s Landing harbour, that’s why they showed it right before Trystan’s murder.
On Thorne’s justification for killing Jon: so he hates wildlings and thinks letting them south is a crime. So why didn’t he mutiny against Jon when he was on the other side of the Wall? That would have made much more sense! Anyone could kill Thorne now and be justified, because he also took a part in what they consider a horrible crime (letting wildlings south)!
On Davos: there’s no reason why he’s there at the Wall, siding with Jon’s loyalists. There’s no reason for he to be in the show anymore. Stannis is dead (or at least there’s no way he’s going to be king anymore). Shireen is dead. Why he didn’t kill Mel the moment he saw her is impossible to know. Why he thinks she’s their only hope is also weird, he doesn’t like her at all and after Shireen’s death and she bailing out of Stannis’ army he should loathe her with abandon. Really, why Davos doesn’t take Thorne’s offer and leave? It’s not his fight! He should just go south and smuggle again, or find whatever is left of his family.
Doran’s death was a true gasp out loud moment for me, if only because I was so frustrated that it looks like Doran (and Alexander Siddig) truly has nothing to do in this show; there’s really no indication that Doran was sneakily plotting or playing some kind of long game (especially with Ariane and Quentyn being cut). Whether that long game is being played well in the books of course remains to be seen (the Mereenese Knot blog seems to think no) but at least he was doing something.
Perhaps there will still be more surprises to come regarding Dorne but I guess for now it seems like Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are basically waging their own personal war against Cersei (I honestly didn’t really take her words about the people of Dorne at face value – maybe in her mind that’s what she thinks but I don’t believe it necessarily means it’s true about the majority of people in Dorne).
I hate Cersei but I completely felt for her grief at losing her daughter. The scene wehre she runs to greet the boat and that morphs into the realization of what happened was really well done.
Okay, I have to admit that at first I thought the scene where Melisandre turns old was a time skip and that she had done something to drain her power (resurrect Jon, for example). I totally didn’t catch until later that it was just her taking off her necklace.
I laughed a bit at some of the dark humor – Ramsay mourning Myranda was sweet in a Game of Thrones way. And also some of the banter between the bloodriders, even if it was about a horrible topic. Well, at least one of them likes to talk afterwards; that’s practically enlightened by their standards. Also, the arguing about the five most wonderful thing in the world was kind of funny, even if the actual context (viewing a woman as a piece of property) was disconcerting. I think you are right that the wives are truly the most dangerous to Dany at that moment; I can’t totally blame them because they are operating in a system where they really don’t have any power that isn’t given to them, so they have to guard it and unfortunately that means turning against other women. But I’m also glad Dany didn’t just end up totally victimized in this episode and was able to stand up for herself too.
Still holding out on Sansa/Theon – I think Sansa will ultimately come into her own but right now she’s still pretty dependent on Theon. At least Theon was willing to get torn part by dogs for her. I was pretty excited by Brienne and getting to see her do something awesome, especially after the way she was wasted in TFA :P
@7 – not to mention killing Myrcella.:P
At any rate, I have utmost contempt for those who kill other people’s children (or really other peoples’ anything) to punish that person and completely disregards the general personhood of that other person. Just a minor pet peeve of mine ;)
Okay, so I’m completely lost on where Trystane was since there is some conflicting info in the comments. During the episode, I assumed he was on Dorne somewhere, but now that somebody mentions it, I think I remember him being on the ship with Myrcella and Jaime. But, maybe I’m confusing it with book memory.
The Dorne subplot has completely lost the thread in the show. The book was very nuanced about the best (well, relatively best) ways to bring about revenge, and even with the limitations of the medium I was hoping for a bit of that nuance in the show. Instead we get a quartet of buffoons killing an overlord in his own palace.
They are not sympathetic at all. They’re slaughterers of children and relatives. Oberyn would be ashamed of them. Doran Martell was a fascinating character in the books (for reasons I don’t think are appropriate to discuss in the show thread), and the show Sand Snakes and Oberyn’s mistress are just not interesting enough to hold up that arc without an equivalent of him.
What’s interesting about them? Finding out which victim they’re going to gang up on kill? They aren’t particularly skillful or impressive combatants. (Elia and her children aren’t even people they knew! Their father died trying to bring justice to innocent victims of war… so their response is to kill innocent victims to bring about another war.)
I don’t even see how they’re going to do ANYTHING to King’s Landing; unless they’re planning to secede, Dorne doesn’t have the population to invade any other kingdom. I guess they can fudge that in the show.
Aren’t the Sand Snakes supposed to be great fighters? Yet here we get a chance to see one of them get into a fight and instead they just stab people in the back. What a waste, a fight between Hotah and one of the Snakes would have been nice, but instead they just stab people in the back.
Dorne is Lame.
Also, I meant to say, this made me laugh out loud (or rather stifle it since I’m at work):
“I thought for sure this was it: Melisandre was going to save Jon Snow with the mighty power of her HBO-worthy tits.”
So Trystane finds his two cousins have come to kill him and then trusts them to fight one on one so he leaves his back open to other one. Kinslaying is supposed to be as taboo in this society as violating guestright, so in what way would you think they would behave honorably?
And speaking of stabs in the back, where exactly does Theon’s blow strike? When the soldier keels over, his shield seems to be entirely covering his back.
@15 he stabbed him in the neck
the ladies were full of surprises on all fronts. being off book is pretty exciting. nothing we see is necessarily in the books at all. they can tell their own story from here on. it did look like the new world order will be matriarchal. john snow’s body will keep a good long while in all that cold. it’s full winter now. i was surprised his blood hadn’t frozen. but they better act before the night king comes. we know wights can rise south of the wall. melisandre dropping her glamour seemed like a sign of lost faith. she never waivered in her belief in r’hllor’s cause. losing stannis and losing john seems to have rocked her to the core. …but what a reveal! and the sand snake coup is an interesting development. with no prince doran’s long-gaming… who does varys really serve now? what will the lannisters do if they are once again fighting multiple armies: the boltons and the dornish?
and where is littlefinger?!
If Jon Snow’s resurrected early, it’s not earned.
If the theory I subscribe to is correct, his allies need to realize that Jon resides in Ghost now. This could happen fairly quickly, as the wildlings are liable to recognize a warg. The cure for death may also involve Bran.
@5: Perhaps we’ve seen Melisandre without the choker before… or perhaps the choker was hidden by the illusion.
@8 but if Trystane and 2 sand snakes are on the ship to KL, why would Jaime let any of them live after Myrcella died from obvious poisoning?
He wouldn’t kill Trystane, and the snakes were likely hidden.
So the sand snakes take a second ship that followed Trystane and then waited until he was alone to kill him outside King’s Landing? They were obviously still on the docks on Dorne when Trystane and the ship he was on left…just seems sloppy.
As far as Mel know being OAF, let’s all remember, in the books, she still has her menstrual cycle. So count me less than enthused that we get ANOTHER example of how evil and deceptive women are.
@22 – interestingly, I didn’t so much see it as showing that she was evil or deceptive, but just playing into the trope of magic having a price. (Of course my initial read of the scene was that she had actually done something that was taking a toll on her).
That said, the price of looks/youth does tend to be more of a female trope. Actually the only male example I can think of off the top of my head is Emperor Palpatine, although he is also evil. But Melisandre has already been established as being, if not evil, as somebody who certainly has her own ends and is not above using deception.
To me what is a little eye twitchy is that, as crzydroid mentions, the main shocker of this episode is Melisandre’s true form – like, oooh, how shocking and horrible, she’s OLD and UGLY! THe horror! So there’s probably something to unpack there about the way we view powerful women, and looks/beauty/youth and how that’s all rolled together.
SPOILER ALERT
Guys remember that Dorne is still in the cohoots business. We havn’t seen the Golden Company yet, and I wonder if we ever will this season, because that is when we will see Dorne shine!
So lets hold out hope that that storyline gets introduced!
@22: Glad you’re still here! I was worried that you’d rage quit after last season. I look forward to your posts for this year.
So I guess the consensus is that Trystane WAS on the ship. But I guess I’m beyond the show deviations making any sense anymore.
Don’t…make…me…think…Dorne…any… more….
OK, Myrcella goes on ship with Dad and dies. Does ship go back to dock to try to get maester curing? I assume so. Wouldn’t Doran learn about his ward’s death ASAP? I’d hope so. That would potentially allow Trystane on ship but no way in hell would the Sand Snakes be allowed on. So I’m confused about how the death scene can happen.
So let’s step back. Trystane was not on ship originally, right? So if we assume that ship ignored need for a maester and sailed on to KL, then how did (1) T learn about his beloved’s death and (2) how did T get onto Jaime’s ship sitting in KL harbor? If we assume Jaime somehow sent a message to short that M had died sufficient for T to board a ship to travel to KL harbor, the Doran should have learned about the murder by poisoning at the same time as T asked him for leave to go to KL – i.e., several days before. So no way Doran wouldn’t know about death of M by poison before he was killed. And he would not have let Sand Snakes board. So…no way death scene could happen – again.
And putting all that aside – where are his bodyguards? Unless, again, it is assumed that all guards are in on the conspiracy. Ugh.
So, the Sand Snakes can hide in the boat long enough to kill Trystane when he reaches King’s Landing, and they do so because “no weak men will rule Dorne anymore”. But if you hate Lannisters so much you kill an innocent girl just because she’s from that family, why don’t you use those two assassins to kill Jaime Lannister while he’s still on the boat with no Lannister guards??!!!! He came to Dorne with just Bronn! He’ll never be as undefended as he was while at that boat, at open sea, mourning his daughter/niece. Not to mention ShowEllaria could’ve kissed him as well, said it was an ancient Dornish custom or some shit.
This show makes no sense!
I want to believe this new Sansa & Brienne pairing is the shape of things to come for Sansa in the future. I hope she finally comes into her own power, rather than being a pawn for everyone else to use. Because that’s getting old (ha!).
But really, the question I wanted answered was why were they bothering to keep Jon’s body around. I mean, is there any in world reason for that? We as an audience know, sure, but how would the characters justify it? Sidenote: the writers totally get Ramsay, at least – nice mourning scene.
Jon Snow is still dead. But, for how long? Another sidenote: Go Davos. I don’t fully understand why he’s helping, but who cares – I like Jon, I like Edd, and I like Davos. Keep them together, please.
In fact, this is the main problem for the show. There are way too many separate threads right now. This episode suffered for it – and we didn’t even check in on everyone. Hopefully they’ll cut some of them by the end of the season, and merge others to keep characters in the same place.
On the subject of cutting, exit Doran the self proclaimed chessmaster (or cyvasse master?). I really doubt this will happen in the books. Then again, who knows? Dorne is probably where the show took the most liberties in adaptation.
King’s Landing didn’t offer much, except to check in on Cersei and her latest tragedy. Great acting, though.
Arya is blind. There was a hint of plot when a passerby mentioned the kingsguard, but I couldn’t catch that. Let’s move on.
Dany can still remember Dothraki. I wonder how long has it been since she last spoke the language. Those bloodriders and the Khal were pretty funny. I missed that. The show needs more humor, even if it’s dark humor. Now to Vaes Dothrak.
And Melisandre is old. According to the producers, “hundreds of years” old. I first saw this theory in 2011, after reading ADWD. We can expect more of this: theories confirmed or debunked as the show progresses past material that’s five years old. How is this relevant, I have no idea.
Glad I’m not the only one a little bit bugged by the big revelation that – OMG!!! Melisandre isn’t actually hot! it’s all a lie! what a deceptive evil woman, whose only power was her body and sexuality!!
Like I get that yes she did use her body for power over men, but that doesn’t define her character. so what if she’s hella old. it just seemed like a pretty lame revelation to me!
Ryamano@9: Why doesn’t Davos take Thorne’s offer and leave? Because he doesn’t trust that it’s sincere. My take is that when Davos asked for food for his journey, that was a test: a sincere Thorne would have said, “Go to hell! We need all the food we have!” The Thorne who was willing to promise food to him was a Thorne who was really thinking, “I’ll promise you food — I’ll promise you anything, promises I’m not going to keep cost me nothing.”
I find it curious that a few people are getting riled up over the assumption that everyone must see the mel reveal as “look she’s deceptive and evil”
Myself and everyone I’ve talked to find it to be a deeply sad and defeated vibe. She’s not some young delusional girl who blindly believed in stannis, she’s elderly and wise and must have been playing the long game for ages now only to have all her plans turn to dust, tired and exhausted she climbs alone bare and naked into her bed. It was a slow painful scene, not an “aha you fools she’s actually old and ugly and vile” scene. At least that’s what I and my friends took from it.
Question, is Tor.com geared toward feminist readers? Totally cool if it is, and maybe I’m just an idiot for not knowing it, but it just seems every comment board is really focused on the female characters, as well as their agency vs. tropes vs. whatever.
Totally legit subject but after the re-read and Got show recaps, it seems a bit repetitive to this lurker. Feel free to educate me if this site is supposed to be that way, as I happened on it kind of randomly last year.
With regard to the episode, I keep waiting for Melly to pull a Thoros of Myr and get Jon up and running again like Beric Dondarrion. Surely she’s at least as powerful as the priest with the flaming sword?
Very disappointed in Dorne, and hard to believe GRRM would spend that much time setting the table for Doran and his long game to be snuffed out just like that. I hope the book is much different, but then I guess I’ll be repeating that many times the next several weeks.
I’m at a loss to understand Davos’s motivation. There’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be on Thorne’s side, really. Davos was fine mowing down wildlings with Stannis at the end of S4. And he thinks the red woman can help? From his perspective, I’d say she’s bloody helped enough!
And what business do the black brothers think they have with a corpse..? In GOT, people die all the time and typically don’t get carried inside to hang out. It’s bordering on fourth wall stuff – I can just hear Davos say “we’re doing it for the fans, dammit.”
Aside from the fun and possibly fruitful Brienne scene, I felt like the rapid ADD direction was joyless and few scenes contributed to the story.
Book readers have assumed Mel was super old for a long time. Nice to have it confirmed (ish) but not surprising.
@34 I didn’t think about it on first watch, but you’re right. Nobody has any reason to defend Jon’s corpse. They should probably be eager to burn it less he become a wight. I guess it’s just a meeting point for friends of Jon who fear they’re next on the block.
So the Sons of the Harpy nearly pull off a huge attack with their spies and warriors, but they don’t know that a dwarf and his bald friend are the defacto rulers of the city? Why would they be walking around with no protection when it’s obvious the Sons would assassinate them easily? I know Tyrion says they need to get closer to the people, but this is insanity if he thinks their merchant disguise would fool anyone.
Man I cannot wait for WoW to wash away the taste of some of these storylines, and yet I’m a hypocrite because I can’t stop watching the show.
@33 ….what? Female characters being discussed as much as, and in as much detail as, male characters is…”a bit repetitive”??? Dude, seriously what are you on about? You are not making sense.
Definitely saw Mel’s transformation as a weary defeat. A loss of religion. She was frazzled looking and lacking in her red lipstick, so visual cues proceeding the transform were clear. Why she had to be NUDE I have no fing clue. Other than, y’know, HBO again. And…her transform was a surprise? Uhhh…okay. My husband and I always assumed she was using glamour.
I *assume* they moved Jon’s body to keep it from being desecrated until they could safety build a pyre. I doubt any of them thought they could see to him properly without being attacked, so… Also keeps him close if he goes zombie and they have to hack at ’em. In this case, they should definitely be chaining him down, but okay. Of course it’s also plot device, but whatever.
Tyrion and Varys are idiots to wander around Mereen, agreed. Also, how the hell do you set an entire marina on fire, have it all nearly burnt to ashes with sun-darkening plumes, before ANYONE smelled, heard, saw, or ran from it? HOW?
Dorne continues to be a massive waste. Either they play Ellaria as a crazy bitch with no political smarts who just wants to get her way, or they introduce some otherwise unknown to us political rules/maneuvering in Dorne, because damn it’s a time sink otherwise. It would have been better to imprison him, as that keeps leverage, but whatever. Sidebar: I know Doran is mostly hanging at the Water Gardens all day, but he wasn’t feeble of the mind. How the HELL does he not have advisers who know a supposed revolution is going on outside? That stuff tends to be noisy. Just ask Dany.
Loved the Dothraki stuff, because I’m a sucker for “scenes where newbs underestimate the power of established, butt-kicking character.” Also died laughing over the debate over “what is best in life.” The expressions on Moro were perfection.
They can keep Jon Snow if we get to keep Edd alive and joking. Honestly give me Edd, Bronn, Jamie, Cersi, Tyrion, Varys, Brienne, and Arya adventuring together and I’m good. Maybe throw a Hound in there. Just sayin. It would be amazing. Please, keep the grimdark emo chars. I’m only here for the snark.
I suppose the “What is best in life?” bit was quite Spanish Inquisition, but there was also a bit of “What have the Dothraki ever done for us eh?” about it as well.
I got the feeling Mel just sacrificed her life for Jon’s by removing that bracelet.
This look she has, it felt like she was saying goodbye.
@33, You protest too much. The reality is that Tor.com’s moderation makes this a place where feminists can have discussions without being overrun with anti-feminists. The question isn’t whether Tor is “feminist centered” but why other websites aren’t.
@35, 41: If Daved Reemar has only read the aSoIaF-read so far, the impression is kind of understandable – Leigh Butler has very strong leanings in that regard, sometimes making her ignore (as in not discuss) other issues.
@33: As far as I can tell, it’s more a matter of certain bloggers – if you look at some other rereads, e.g. Malazan or Sanderson, it doesn’t seem to be a specific focus.
@32 – I definitely also saw a mournful and resigned air there as well. If I have a nitpick, it’s more about the more meta aspect of the idea of a woman being old/ugly some horrible fate. But from a storytelling perspective I didn’t see this scene specifically as meant to tell us that Meli is evil and deceptive. We already knew that, anyway.
Three things that haven’t been mentioned yet:
1. What happened to Ramsay’s vicious hounds during Brienne and Pod’s attack to rescue Sansa? They seemed to have just disappeared, which makes no sense.
2. Did no one else notice that when Jon Snow’s body was lifted from the snow, Davos became fixated on the shape of Jon’s blood in the snow, causing him to stare and not move at first? It was roughly dragon-shaped. Looks to me like foreshadowing.
3. Jorah finding Dany’s ring so quickly amidst a sea of grass by just happening to stand right about on the spot it was at, seemed absurd, especially since there was no specific reason to look for it.
@42 you nailed it. Just seems like many of the posters see the books and shows through one prism, but you are exactly right in that I have only read GoT threads, the book re-read and the show recaps.
That being said, I love all the story speculation and have learned a lot from people I’d consider ASOIAF scholars, and will check out the Sanderson re-read. Appreciate the tip.
@44 I agree with your first two points, your first especially (those hounds would have been trained to fight back and were already pulling at their leashes to attack Theon).
But the ring was in the center of that circular design made by the riders all around Dany, which you could see on the long shot. Jorah simply went to the center of the design and saw the ring.
@41 @33 sorry to offend you by asking, was just curious. Obviously a touchy subject for you, and I’ll stick to story going forward.
Any thoughts on why Melly didn’t just pull a Thoros of Myr on Jon? If she’s that old and experienced surely she knows how I would think. She certainly kills without hesitation (Renly, Shireen), why not bring the dead back with her god’s help? I like how GRRM doesn’t exactly explain how magic/religion work in this world, but sometimes a rule book can be nice.
@5 Brienne showing up wasn’t too convenient. She has been hanging around Winterfell trying to figure out how to get Sansa out, so she has been ready for the escape. They were also led right to her by barking dogs.
@44 I also noticed the magically vanishing dogs. But in show terms makes sense. Never have the hero kill a dog. It is a rule.
@47
But we last saw Brienne killing Stannis after the battle, and she then immediately found Sansa’s trail and went hunting, or did she make it back to the window in time to see the candle burning and then found the hounds that were trailing Sansa.
It’s not a terrible leap of logic and I’m not really put out about it, it just felt very convenient to me.
LisaMarie @23:
Hello…. Dorian Grey???
You know another thing that bothers me. The change in Margaery’s story. The way the Tyrells rescued her was a nice contrast to the Lannisters. So instead, they’ve made the case against Margaery airtight, with her lying about Loras.
And it just bugs me, that the showrunners, AGAIN, couldn’t highlight how bad the Sparrows are by showing their blatant misogyny. They had to show the Sparrows behavior impacting a man as well. It’s like they don’t get that the misogyny makes the Sparrows reprehensible people. It’s only by adding homophobia to the mix that they “get it”.
@50 I was surprised at how much they whitewashed the Margaery character in the show versus the books, given D&D’s penchant for all things freaky. Her book character seemed much more reckless which made the dynamic with Cersei so rich.
Might I just comment on something in last season (since I just watched it recently while preparing for the premiere of Season 6)?
How it makes no sense what Melisandre did, to abandon Stannis? That this decision just happened because the show needed her to burn Shireen but then needed her in another place later (probably to ressurrect Jon)?
Melisandre is a fanatic. She truly believes Stannis is Azor Ahai, that’s why she’s in Westeros in the first place. So, why does she abandon him when half of his army leaves him? This makes no sense, considering what happened in Season 3. Stannis lost much more than half his army at Blackwater, yet she still is on his side later! She still thinks he’s going to win! And Mel abandons him on the show while he hasn’t even been defeated yet (no battle has happened when she leaves). What if by some miracle (hint hint) Stannis won the battle while outnumbered against the Boltons, pulling some Crecy or Poitiers? One might ask who would believe such a thing could happen. I’d answer: a fucking fanatic, like Melisandre of Asshai!
The only way for Mel to abandon Stannis is if she found another one who could fit the Azor Ahai prophecy (like hearing about Daenerys for the first time or witnessing a ressurrected Jon Snow start fullfilling those prophecies). Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense and it’s just lazy writing.
On the frequently posed question of why Melisandre did not resurrect Jon Snow, the answer might be perhaps that he needs to be resurrect not by an agent of God of Light but by God of Light himself. That is how masses are moved into the zealous action and religious fanaticism, which in a way is what is needed if one is to win the big war against the Walkers and unite the 7 kingdoms. We do not celebrate Lazarus for being resurrected by Christ, but Christ is followed by the act of resurrection he did himself or was done onto him directly by God. It gives Jon real agency and unifies the torn brotherhood, the Wildlings and possibly the broken army of Stannis into a force to be reckoned with as they would have witnessed the power of God of Light firsthand. Such an army of real burning religious fanatics is difficult to overthrow… combine the with Dragons, and perhaps you might stand a chance against the army of the dead. And also, it makes sense in Melisandre story line, as she is losing her religion, he is tired and weary, and finally disappointed, as her God was lying to her when he showed her Jon fighting for Winterfell… only to witness the miracle of the God she is about to forsake…
@23 – Lisamarie: Ves Alkar, in Star Trek TNG “Man Of The People” grows old from his psychic powers, and dumps that negative energy on his female companions.
@32 – Jay: I’m with you.
@33: “Feminist” is a misnomer. It’s about equality, and you’re complaining about equality.
@44 – Simon: However vicious those hounds are, they’re still dogs. When their handlers let go of their leashes and swordfighting started, they ran away.
@53 and earlier – As I recall, Mel was shocked to learn that Thoros of Myr could bring Beric back from the dead. I don’t think she KNOWS how to do it. If she chose, she’d have to try and hope for the best.
Regarding the Dothraki: why do they suddenly believe in Dany? What proof does she have of being a Khaleesi widow? Either someone should’ve recognized her (“no Khal Moro, you can’t marry her, she’s a widow! Her silver hair is proof she married Khal Drogo” or “no, random pair of Dothraki bloodriders, you can’t rape her ass, because she’s a Khaleesi widow. It’s known”) or she should’ve been made a slave again. The way this happened in the show didn’t make any sense. She just says one thing then everyone believes her … just because.
@31. David_Goldfarb
Why does Davos even care about the situation between the two factions of the Night’s Watch? Why did he side with Jon’s loyalists? I know the showlogic behind that (good guys band together!), but shouldn’t he be caring about other stuff? Like returning to his family alive (I don’t even know if they’re alive in the show anymore)? Or just living to see another day? It’s not his fight at all! His only conversations with Jon in the show were about what Stannis wanted or how Stannis viewed Jon (favorably or not). It doesn’t seem he liked or disliked Jon. With Stannis and Shireen out of the picture (supposedly there was some conversation offscreen in which Mel told him about what happened) Davos motivations should either be revenge against those responsible for their deaths or survival, not picking a side in a fight inside the Night’s Watch.
@54: You’re the third poster who’s been aggressive towards Daved Reemar for wondering whether the site has a certain political focus, to the exclusion of other topics – wouldn’t it be more polite to cut a self-proclaimed newb some slack?
@23 Yeah, I didn’t see Mel’s reveal as old to mean she was necessarily evil. Was it deceptive? Sure, I guess, but it doesn’t take 400 years to learn that the beautiful are treated better than the ugly, especially as women in a very male dominated society. I saw her reveal to come across as mournful and it makes her seem more vulnerable, not even wiser. She’s been around for so long and she still gets things wrong. She’s got so many doubts.
I do wonder if she’ll do a my-life-for-Jon Snow’s thing. That was kind of what I got, too, or possibly a Dorian Gray thing. It’s still too early to tell. I don’t see any other reason to make us wait for Jon Snow’s return aside from HBO wanting to drag it out, but the longer he remains dead, the longer you wonder about things like decomposing, wight-ressurrection, etc.
@33 I don’t see it as putting special attention on female characters, it’s just that, this episode particularly, they were more of a focus. I suppose I could’ve gone into how boring Jorah and Daario were but Zzzzz . I do think Tor.com mods do a great job of providing a space for good discussions of sexual politics and don’t let conversations devolve into shouting matches and swears.
@47 Ned killed a direwolf and the audience didn’t hate him for it. Does that count? I mean, I guess it was a terrible omen for his own fate…
I’m glad I wasn’t crazy wondering where Ramsay’s hounds got to or WTF was up with the Dornish messy timeline. I resent having to spend any time in Dorne. Do we think Quentyn will appear and do his whole thing from the books or is Ellaria going to cut out the middle men and try to align with Dany in some other, more direct way? Or take Dorne for herself somehow? Her and Throne could both learn a lot about winning the populist vote.
I don’t think Quentyn will be introduced (really, it’s season 6, the time for introducing more characters has passed, now it’s time to streamline things for the ending, two to three seasons away). Also, there was a line in the last season where Doran said Trystane would rule one day and so he should be the judge of what happened to Bronn. Having Quentyn in the show would make that line meaningless. Also, Doran asked Ellaria what would happen to his son, singular, not sons, plural. Maybe they could make Quentyn one of his nephews, but I doubt it.
What will most likely happen is that Ellaria will become ruler (even though most people in the setting would despise a kinslayer) due to the law of preservation of characters, and wage war against the Iron Throne and Lannisters. She could ask for help from the Martells and others, like the ironborn. It’s possible she in the end asks help from Daenerys, and Dorne would become the beachhead of Targaryen invasion. Which made me imagine this happening:
Ellaria: Dany, you’re our only hope. Let’s avenge our deceased relatives together. I’m totally OK with putting you on the throne, you’re not a weak man.
Dany: I’m kind of occupied with Dothraki khalasars and ending slavery in Slavery Bay right now, maybe a war against wights and Others in the North in the future, but I’m glad you offered to be my vassal. I accept. Since I’m occupied, I’m going to send one of my councillors to rule things in Westeros until I arrive. He knows a lot about the place. Obey him in all things like you’d do with me. He promises me he’ll win the war and get me on the Iron Throne in no time.
*Tyrion Lannister arrives at Sunspear*
*Dornish revolution against Lannisters and people who make peace with Lannisters becomes a big hypocrisy*
@55 RobMRobM: I’m in accord with you in believing that Melisandre doesn’t know how to do a resurrection, for the same reason you stated. Personally, I’ve always thought her return to Castle Black was a red herring to make viewers confidently believe she is the one who will resurrect Jon. I could be wrong, but I’m going out on a limb to say she won’t in fact bring Jon back to life.
There are other possible ways to have Jon “return.” In particular, I am intrigued by the notion that since Bran can warg into live humans (as he did with Hodor), that he might be able to warg into dead ones too; therefore, he might reanimate Jon. That would explain in show terms why Jon is still dead: we haven’t been reintroduced to Bran yet. We really don’t know the current extent of his powers either.
And to those questioning why Davos is taking on a fight that is not his: he is an anointed knight. Doing the right thing, well, that’s the kind of noble action knights are supposed to take. Also, I think he is one of the few characters who is very much aware of the danger the White Walkers pose, and so he would not want the Wall left virtually defenseless in the hands of corrupt idiots who think short-term and seem oblivious to the very real fact they will soon be wiped out without the help of the Wildlings.
@59, I don’t want to disrupt the thread any more than I have, but it seems some posters are not understanding my question/issue. I love talking about the female characters, because they are awesome characters. I just don’t find it as interesting to discuss them through a feminist prism versus their place in the GoT story, and how they play into the overall plotlines, etc…
Somehow a few folks think I was questioning why we bother to talk about females on the thread, which is not at all what I meant. Sorry if it came across that way, although re-reading my post I could have stated it more clearly.
Re-watched the episode and I do find myself appreciating the rare moments of comic relief like the Dothraki scene. We could use more of that.
My belief is that Melisandre doesn’t know how to resurrect Jon YET, but she will.
Some of the language in the Azor Ahai myth indicate what may happen here. Azor Ahai has a “flaming sword” that he “plunges into the flesh” of his beloved.
As Dany learns, only death may pay for life, I imagine as Jon’s body begins to burn, while looking into the flames, Mel will see what she has to do, and will mount Jon’s dead body, taking his flaming member(sword) into herself, thus bringing him back to life by ending her own in the flames.
@58 – Torvald_Nom: I was not aggressive.
@59 – theresa_delucci: If they can bring the dead back to life, seemingly healthy (as we’ve seen in the show), why worry about the corpse decomposing? Magic, and voila.
@61 and others. I do think Mel is the answer, she’ll bring Jon back. It will be like Thoros – she’ll pray honestly and deeply to her god, and he will do the work – not Mel. Whether she will die in the attempt is a separate issue. I thought that likely but doesn’t she also say her visions had her walking around Winterfell? So maybe she hangs on for a while.
Hi, everyone–let’s get back to discussing the episode rather than criticizing/lecturing other commenters. As always, we request that you keep a civil tone toward everyone participating in the discussion.
@54 lordmagnusen
This is one thing the show hasn’t done a great job of getting across. The books are pretty clear on the point that the better the shape the body is in, the more intact the person is when brought back to life. Compare Beric the first time vs. when he’s died a few times and his body is rather beaten up and then look at LSH.
Keeping Jon’s body intact, cold, and doing something soon should matter, but that may not be important for the show. I think it’s important to show that death does take a toll and nobody is ever the same.
Didn’t know that about the book. Still, it’s probably important to show that dying and coming back does something to you, at least mentally.
I am late to the discussion, and think pretty much everything I wanted to say has been said. Davos is great, and his mutton comment was my favorite moment of the show–he isn’t buying a word of Thorne’s schtick. I think he is helping Jon’s friends simply because, freed from serving his King, he as a good man is drawn to the underdog (underdirewolf?) and to the most worthy cause he can find. I was delighted that Brienne finally got a chance to do some rescuing, and now has a purpose again. And if she can help Sansa find her destiny, more power to her. It is worthy of note that the two most noble knights in the series, the female knight and the Onion Knight, are scorned by others who are less worthy of the title–more of GRRM subverting the tropes of fantasy fiction.
I also couldn’t figure out how the two Sand Snakes were suddenly aboard the ship they watched sail into the sunset. It’s a Dorne shame that particular storyline has been so poorly handled. And I couldn’t wrap my head around Varys and Tyrion wandering the city without any Unsullied accompanying them–this in a city roiled by revolution. But if the revolutionaries were smart, they would not have burned the fleet. Let Dany and her minions sail off to Westeros and be done with them might be a smarter approach.
But other than those quibbles, I enjoyed the episode, and thought it worked quite well.
I see what you did there.
Trystane: Yes, he was on the ship. Remember, it was discussed among the grownups that his engagement to Meyrcella would stand and that he would take Oberyn’s place on the Small Council in King’s Landing. So, he would have still been on the ship in port at KL. What I don’t get it why they didn’t turn that ship around after Myercella died. They were still in Dorne’s port, and they had to have had a clue or two that foul play had been involved! Why didn’t they go right back and demand someone answer for it? Maybe they felt they had no chance, it being a foreign land and all…I’D, it just seems to go against reason, as everything else in that plot thread.
Mel – She seemed pretty zombified wandering around at the wall there, her faith being shaken down to it’s foundation by recent events. And as she was getting ready for bed she looked like she was ready to completely fall apart. So, I saw the whole aging thing as her giving up and preparing to die in her sleep.
Jon – I agree with someone else who said Jon was in ghost. I had thought the same thing, the wars gene choosing to kick in as a means of survival. When Ghost attacked the guys that beat up Sam and then vanished I thought it might have been Bran in Ghost. Yeah, Ghost and Sam have a special bond, but I get the feeling Bran really liked Sam too and wanted to thank him for helping them get beyond the wall.
Theon and Sansa – Could be a love story brewing there. Sure, they’ll never be able to have children but, think about it. After enduring everything she has from Ramsey, sex is never going to be anything but traumatic for her. So the loss of Theon’s boy parts would actually make them well matched for each other when they may be unable to find similar compatibility with anyone else. They’ve been through similar crap and “get” each other based on that.
Final thought – Does anyone else wish the other two dragons would bust out of their dungeon and just eat everyone to punish their mother for locking them up? I just feel so bad for the poor things. At least give them a courtyard to fly around in or something.
@72 Sansa is still married to Tyrion, her marriage to the Bolton was under duress and doesn’t count. Before the series ends, I expect her to realize that he treated her better than any other man ever did, and get back together with him so they can live happily ever after. And, that means she will be the First Lady of Westeros, because the people are going to rise up against all this royal crap, and elect Tyrion the first President of Westeros. The End.
73. AlanBrown So a marriage vow made under duress will make Sansa pine for her previous marriage which was also made under duress? Sure Tyrion is better than Ramsay but so is (almost) literally everyone else in the seven kingdoms.
@72 – phantomrose: I really hope nothing happens between Sansa and Theon. Yes, he was a glorified hostage at the Stark court, but they were still raise as siblings of sorts, and he took the first chance he could to turn against them, and wanted to have the younger Starks killed.
@75 – he turned against the Starks as a glorified temper tantrum. He was raised by them yet was reminded at every opportunity that he wasn’t one of them. Then his own father rejected him as a traitor as if the whole thing was his fault. So, he was rejected by both his natural and surrogate families. He attacked the Starks as a means of proving his loyalty to his father and retaliating against the Starks for not being more of a family to him. That doesn’t excuse his behavior – he’s still a slime – but I can see how he got there. And wouldn’t it just be icing on the cake if he became, by marrying Sansa, the Lord of Winterfell?
@73 – I’m totally with you. Tyrion Lannister in 2016! With the Spider as his running mate :)
A couple of sites have released the prop containing the message from Jaime to Prince Doran. Here is one. In the message Jaime mentions that Myrcella has died from poison but that he does not suspect Doran. He knows Cersei will demand war and says that Doran’s son cannot stay so he was sending him back on the same ship. I think this clears up the whole timeline confusion.
It doesn’t matter how understandable Theon’s actions were, he wanted to kill Sansa’s little brothers. That is not something she can look past…
@74 Good point. Even though the match with Tyrion was a better one for Sansa, both of the unions were arranged. That knocks the logic out from under my argument, but my sentiment remains the same. It was sad to see her blindness to Tyrion’s better qualities. He actually treated her with a great deal of nobility.
She might just see them yet.
Ryamano @60:
LOL! Hello Euron! ; )