Sometimes a queen commands respect, other times she burns your whole damn house down and then commands respect.
Major episode spoilers ahead.
Spoilers for the currently published George R. R. Martin novels are discussed in the review and fair game in the comments. We highly suggest not discussing early preview chapters, but if you must, white it out. Have courtesy for the patient among us who are waiting and waiting (and waiting) for The Winds of Winter. Play nice. Thanks.
Dany going full-on Carrie White in the house of the Dosh Khaleen was pretty damn satisfying, even as it was kind of obvious what would happen to all those khals once collected in one handy location. I’ll pour a bit of Arbor wine out for Khal Moro and his idiot bloodriders, but only a few drops because he turned out to be kind of a huge asshole to Dany at the end.
Dany’s firestarting wasn’t quite as “Hell yeah!” for me emotionally as when she uttered that “Dracarys” to the slavemaster of Yunkai, but now she stands at the front of an even bigger khalasar than she did in the beginning. And she did it on her own. And yes, all those people bent the knee for the Unburnt. Will that be enough to rule them? I wonder if there will be some fallout for Dany not technically besting the khals in combat. She outfoxed them. Do Dothraki care?
Dothraki value strength. Perhaps any remaining naysayers will be silenced when they see that their new Khaleesi rides a badass dragon, not a horse?
West of the Narrow Sea, other queens showed their grit in the face of terrible odds.
Queen Margaery proved what we thought all along: she is the true future of House Tyrell. Pull yourself together, Loras. Listen to your sister, who seems to be a master of playing… whatever she needs to in order to come out a winner in the game.
But is her game as good as the High Sparrow’s? Doubtful, as it seems he was banking on King’s Landing sliding into shoddy leadership and civil war.
When you think about it from his perspective, Cersei and the rest are self-serving and prideful to the disservice of the smallfolk they rule. Yes, even my beloved Olenna cares more about protecting Margaery’s dignity than creating countless victims of war. “Better them than us.” Yeah, Dany can come burn you down, too, Queen of Snark.
In the North, Sansa comports herself like a true queen and the tougher half of the Stark siblings. Yes, Jon gets to be tired of war and fighting. But so freaking what? I was kind of hoping Sansa would reply to Jon with a “You’re not the only one, dude. I’ve only witnessed our father’s execution, was beaten and humiliated daily by Joffrey — and falsely accused of his murder — married to two husbands against my will, and raped multiple times. And that’s the Cliff Notes version. I’m still fighting, you fucking crybaby. Now grow out your magical haircut and let’s go get our little brother!”
Not gonna lie though: I was the total crybaby when Sansa reunited with Jon. Starks reunited and no one died! (Yet.) It feels so great! (For now.)
What stayed Brienne’s sword when she saw Melisandre? Is it as simple as not wanting to anger her new hosts? Renly’s ghost must be pissed. And Davos looked like he was not going to take a page from Jon and Sansa’s book of forgive-and-forget either. While he may want to kill Brienne for executing Stannis, I think he ultimately blames Melisandre for what happened to Stannis and, by extension, little Shireen.
So, yeah, this’ll be a hilarious buddy comedy on the Kingsroad.
But before that, I need gifs of every single face at that Castle Black dinner table. Starting with Tormund and Brienne:
A round of applause to Littlefinger, who I missed greatly. In true Littlefinger style, he reclaimed his spot at the top of the Eyrie food chain bearing a gift in one hand and the promise of another Moon Door execution in the other. “The time has come to join the Frey fray.” Ha! I see what you did there, Game of Thrones.
Final thoughts:
- Quote of the night: Sansa’s “We never should’ve left Winterfell.” Yup.
- Quote of the night runner-up: “It’s all part of a story, a story I was telling myself about who I was. A collection of lies.” I loved Jonathan Pryce’s monologue about the High Sparrow’s spiritual hangover epiphany.
- Meereen’s a bit dull without Dany. Let’s hope it doesn’t take seven years for her to return to the city. I feel really bad for the highly uncomfortable position Messandei and Grey Worm were put in by Tyrion’s deal with the Masters and their self-interest. I’m kind of siding with Grey Worm on this. Tyrion’s deal seemed too vague. I wanted to hear Varys’ opinion, too. He was quiet for a change.
- Very Bad Man Ramsay is a Very Bad Man. Ho-hum. Of course he was going to kill Osha. What a bummer though, to bring back Tonks, only to watch her be forced to offer her body to another self-styled lord and then get stabbed for the trouble. What’s he going to do with Rickon? The teeny Stark doesn’t need to be alive for Ramsay to taunt Jon Snow. How does Sansa know Ramsay really does have Rickon?
- Next week: Bran has a meet-cute with the Night’s King, nothing about a kingsmoot is cute, and Arya levels up. House Stark is on the rise!
Game of Thrones airs Sunday nights at 9PM E/PT on HBO.
Theresa DeLucci is a regular contributor to Tor.com covering TV, book reviews and sometimes games. She’s also gotten enthusiastic about television for Boing Boing. Send her a raven through Twitter.
I guess all that insisting by Martin that Dany’s resistance to fire at Drogo’s pyre was a one time thing was complete misdirection, that is, an outright lie.
I don’t think Davos was told yet exactly how Shireen met the Stranger. The detente between him and Melisandre might not survive.
Poor Osha, went to that play one too many times.
What was Littlefinger’s plan with respect to Sansa? Surely he was not counting on her to escape?
I am getting the feeling we are going to kill a major character or two at least once an episode now. I am not liking Margeary’s chances of surviving her rescue attempt.
That dinner scene though. I don’t know why, but the way they cut that just felt . . . I was laughing so hard I had tears streaming down my face. I don’t know if it was just pressure-release after Osha’s grisly end, but I found that whole scene (before the talking started) to be some of the funniest stuff I’ve seen lately.
By the way . . . Osha’s end felt almost like a kindness considering what I expected to happen to a female left to Ramsay’s tender ministrations, especially once we realized that he knew what she was up to. I guess the only question now is whether Rickon and Osha’s “captors” were in on it.
@1 Crusader75
Martin’s always been adamant that Targaryens, including Dany, aren’t fireproof and the end of the first book was a one-time event. I believe him and it’s much more likely that the writers are just making stuff up as it becomes expedient for their ends. The way the plot in Vaes Dothrak was portrayed felt like a big letdown from the source material. Everything was just too over-the-top and the ‘victory’ felt unearned.
It also seemed cheap to bring Osha back for a scene just to kill her off here.
The scenes in the North were probably the strongest part of the episode.
While I understand Grey Worm and Messandei’s misgivings about Tyrion’s plan. Let’s face it, none of them even remotely considered what to do after freeing the slaves. Its great to abolish slavery, boo slavery and all that, but when your great reconstruction plan is “We’ll let the market sort it out” you get to give no side eye to the one guy who is trying to make a lasting peace.
Osha… let’s bring her back – only to stab her in the neck 5 minutes later. There’s one less paycheck to write. :-(
Highlight of the night – Jon and Sansa acting like real siblings!!!
Sweetrobin… “she’s my cousin”… Creepy… I’m left wondering if they will pull the whole “I want to marry you” thing back out. So she has a possibly another “husband.”
But oh, does Litterfinger spin everything.
Meereen – Why the hell would the slave masters care if the whores were willing or not? That seems like the lamest distraction / end of negotiations ever.
Sansa knew Ramsay had Rickon because–as bugnuts crazy as TV Ramsay is–he doesn’t lie about bargaining chips like that. He’ll misrepresent himself and his intentions all day but if he says he has someone or something in a taunt to you, he probably does. Doubly so when it’s not a primary piece to the taunt: Ramsay says he’s already going to ride north to slaughter the wildlings and reclaim Sansa. Rickon was just the added knife twist.
Though I do agree that Sansa could have told Jon that she was also tired but they had to buckle up, calling a guy whose life has been beyond sucky from the point he left Winterfell through no fault of his own to the point when he got killed a crybaby seems a little disingenuous. Unlike Jon, a lot of the things that happened to Sansa were the result of her bad decisions. She had several chances to avoid what happened to her, and unlike Arya, she never took them because she was weak and shallow. I do have to say that I like this new Sansa, who was able to apologize to her half-brother for being a bitch to him all the time, and who finally seems to like up to the Stark legacy. Too bad that at times it kinda seemed like she wasn’t being totally honest and was trying to get on Jon’s good side to get him to take back Winterfell for her, since she’s a Stark and he’s a bastard.
How do you think Dany would deal with the High Sparrow if he got his paws on her? Does she even worship the Seven? Certainly not if she ever meets up with big Mo. He’s a self-righteous torturer and bully. He would be pitched into the fire as quick as the Tyrells and Lannisters.
In the North and in Kings’ Landing, they seem to be backing into the situation at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Jon is rallying the Wildlings, and maybe the hill folk and minor house of the North, against the Boltons (this time after he’s killed). In Kings’ Landing the High Sparrow paroled Margery when Randyll Tarly showed up with the Tyrell army.
One of my biggest complaints about the series is what a sissy they made Loras. In the book, his homosexuality is hinted at – while it is emphasized that he may be the most capable knight is Westerous. In the series – he’s a sniveling wimp captured without a fight and broken easily.
i particularly appreciated how sansa had to bend down to hug jon snow and sweetrobin had to bend down to hug littlefinger. next up: sansa orders littlefinger summarily executed. there’s nothing left to talk about. just have brienne run him through with ned’s swordling. if the freys learn that walda is dead, they may join up with the vale to march on winterfell.
@2 – i agree. osha got off easy. ramsay could have set the dogs on her or…flayed her living.
@@.-@ Biter
I’m glad that the show is portraying the difficulties of post-conquest rule. I only wish Dany had been there to learn the lessons and deal with the fallout of her actions herself. My worry is that we’ll get to the end and she’ll never have any time to learn any pragmatism from people who know how to rule.
@1
“I guess all that insisting by Martin that Dany’s resistance to fire at Drogo’s pyre was a one time thing was complete misdirection, that is, an outright lie.”
The books and TV show are different. That much should be obvious by now.
It’s funny that Jon is now considering doing what he was actually killed for in the books.
And the Tormund/Brienne scene was hilarious!
Question… Does Sansa know what happened to Jon? He mentioned something about “what happened to [him]” and she didn’t seem phased by it, but it seems like something that might freak anyone out a bit. Maybe she doesn’t know that he was killed and brought back to life, but to me they made it look like she was brought up to speed off camera.
@12 – I had thought they were saying that Dany’s limited time fireproofing also applied to the show. Even so, that is a heck of a plot point to duverge on.
Also, a bit bothered by Tormund saying the Wildlings only have 2000 effective fighters. Mance Rayder’s “army” was over a hundred thousand. Even if most of those were not fighters, that is a staggering casualty figure between their losses against the Watch and Stannis’ forces
@13 Eyeless621
It sounded like they caught up a bit off screen to spare us having to hear it again.
@14 Crusader75
The effective strength of the Wildlings in the books is even smaller, just a few hundred IIRC. Most of Mance’s people were civilians in a mass migration, instead of an army on the march. Many died in the battles with the Others, the Watch, and Stannis and a few groups remained beyond the Wall.
I don’t care if the show diverged with the books with the whole invulnerable to fire thing…because we finally got to see naked Dany again! That’s a win in my book!
Well, to be fair, Dany did command respect fromn the khals first, but since they laughed in her face and promised to rape her… then she burned their place down.
As for the burning down of the building… is the place made of horse dung to burn that quickly, or does Dany command the flames in some way?
On Sansa’s and Jon’s end, I did not expected them to be reunited so quickly. Sansa doesn’t know that Ramsay has Rickon, but she’s afraid enough of what he could do to him if it’s true. And I loved Torvald oogling Brienne.
Tyrion, on the other hand, is buying time for Dany to return, he’s not seriously trying to deal with the masters, he knows they’ll never go for anything other than slavery.
@1 – Crusader75: Do you mean they’ve killed a major character in this episode? Or starting next one?
@14, I don’t know the specific comments people are referring to, but regardless, the show clearly portrayed it being different, so it’s solved in this case.
I haven’t read the books, but I would think that if you wanted to express to your readers that immunity to fire was a one-time thing rather than an ongoing ability, the best way wouldn’t be to say “Hey, readers, it’s a one-time thing!” but rather to have a scene where she tests it out and finds that she does, indeed, burn (or even reflects that she has done so at some point in the past). Unless there’s been a scene like that, I think the only reasonable thing to assume is that it’s still in effect and being saved for a big moment. It’s certainly not unheard of for authors to lie about their own works/plans.
Also, I was half expecting Bolton to do a “You know what, she raised a good point, I’ve never TRIED cannibalism…” over her body somehow.
So happy to see Sansa make it to Jon, and a plot twist to get him moving!! He needed someone to point him, somewhere…..now….Action!
From the scenes from next week trailer….When Sansa is talking to Littlefinger, I wondered if their forces had joined to take Ramsey on….and I hope she already knows that Littlefinger DID know about Ramsay and sold her out. I enjoy him in the story, but he’s so treacherous! Frankly, I hope it’s Sansa that takes him out, eventually.
Yeah, fun on the Kingsroad with Sir Davos and Mel. She seems very down in the dumps now that she has realized her mistake….and perhaps all the time wasted, and people she killed in her ignorance. She and Rullor are NOT invulnerable!
Margarey is very well trained by her Grannie. They are both formidable….and scary, but I’m rooting for them to somehow get Cersei out of Tomen’s ear. Not likely, I know.
I think Tyrion made the deal with the Slavers as a stop gap until Dani returns, and to get them to call off the Murders. He knows they will revert to slavery anyway….He’ll change his tune….or Dani will when she gets back….soon….with a LARGE army!
Dani….Great scene! Nice to see Dario humbled before her! Take that you sexist pigs ;-)
And boo. I was so hoping Osha would get Ramsay, and not the other way around. Damn.
There was a mini-controversy over this. Someone on Westeros posted a link to an interview where GRRM does say that Daenerys’ making it through Drogo’s pyre had to do with the life for life interplay or the hatching of the dragons. To now find that targs are indeed fireproof is like … huh. Maybe it says that Jon is half Dayne instead, because of the burnt hand.
@19, Dany has been burned in the books.
@21, The Targs in the books AREN’T fireproof. Martin has no control over what the show does with his plots.
Even if G.R.R.M. has said that Dany being fireproof was a one-time thing, that hasn’t been true on the show since the very beginning. When we are first introduced to Dany, she gets into a scalding-hot bath that her handmaid warns her not to step into or she’ll get burned. She does get in and doesn’t bat an eyelash. Then later when the dragon eggs are sitting in flames, she picks them up and isn’t burned, though her attendant is. So this has been a pretty consistent theme on the show.
@21: Regardless of how it was in the books, it doesn’t necessarily mean that Targs are fireproof or burn proof, it could just be Dany. Maybe it’s a recessive gene. After all, molten gold, while not quite fire (but then, neither is the scalding bath Dany ignored), did do a number on her brother.
@25 ghostly1
As Aeryl points out above, the books clearly show Dany getting wounded by fire. It’s a moment of realization for her about the danger inherent in her path. That’s part of the reason why it feels totally out of place in the series.
The show takes something presented with nuance in the books and transforms it into a character with a super power that doesn’t exist in Martin’s universe.
I really want to see a scene where Jon is telling Sansa & Brienne all the ways to kill a whitewalker – esp. by Valryian steel. And then Brienne is like… you know my sword came from Ice… Right?
Both Sansa and Jon are like—-WHAT,.
@26: Yes, that’s why I said regardless of how it was in the books, since I wasn’t talking about them, but rather the idea that Dany being fireproof proves something or not about the Targ nature of other characters.
Up until the last Dany scene, I was thinking, “what? a whole episode without boobs? I can’t even… oop! never mind!”
The pic … the way Brienne and Pod are holding their reins … errrrr.
@ghostly1 In the books we’ve had entire generations of Targs killed by fire, including famously, King Aegon and his entire family (except for baby Rhaegar)..not to mention all the Targs killed by dragonfire over the years. I’m now more convinced then ever that the story we’re getting on tv is completely different then what were getting in the books (specifically I think R+L=J is a show contrivance, and that R+A=J or D maybe more likely)
It’s incredible how long Jon takes to pack. Even more so when Theon shows that you only need one horse to traverse long distances (he went from around Winterfell to the Iron Islands rather quickly and safely with only one horse).
@1: I would think Loras is more at risk of dying on the show. he’s not adding much and @9 said, they totally changed his character for the negative.
Still annoyed at the show showing a Perry Mansion moment of “Oh, but he has a birth mark that only sexual partners would see!” BS. Your squire would help you dress all the time and see everything. That should not have been the “got ya!” moment.
@32: We just have to accept the amazing time travel ability of plot convenience the show uses all the bloody time. Theon can travel the same distance in one show that it took Littlefinger practically a whole season to travel.
Dany is not only immune to fire in the TV version, she also probably is immune to asfixiation. Most people in fires die due to asfixiation. I wonder if TV!Dany can breathe in space now.
I’m Batman and I can breathe in space.
I’m Daenerys Targeryen, and so can I.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BatmanCanBreatheInSpace
@33, Well obviously Theon has the Orb of Fast Travel now, it’s obvious Littlefinger, who traveled from Winterfell to KL in an episode last season, doesn’t have it anymore.
@28, But Jon hasn’t been burned in the show, not like he was in the book. He suffered no damage from lighting the wight in Jeor Mormont’s room.
@9
I agree with you, but in all fairness he is basically out of the books as well. Although it was in a much more gallant manner. (Burned by oil storming a castle) Not sure why they couldn’t do the same in the show.
@36, Well, he’s not the sole heir to Highgarden in the books either. And the show was more concerned about playing Loras as a stereotypical lecherous gay man than the nuanced character that was written in the book. But that’s because the show doesn’t have the confidence in it’s audience accepting the Sparrows as evil if they just mistreat women, so they had to the have the Sparrows persecute men too.
Somewhat interesting that things like the Pink Letter (although it wasn’t really pink) are coming into it NOW, when it’s perfectly okay for Jon to be pursuing that goal. Same thing with now bringing the Vale back into play. I’ve pretty much lost track of what Littlefinger’s actual goals/motives are, and how much he knew would happen (like, was he banking on Sansa somehow escaping? Or even if she hadn’t escaped, would he have just sent the troops to ‘rescue’ her instead?).
That said, I found Sansa’s apology rather ingenuous as it was immediately followed up by a request for help and shaming Jon for not wanting to walk away. If you ask me, she still views him as somebody ‘lesser’ that needs to do her bidding for her, although I am sure he would have his own reasons to want to avenge Winterfell.
I had a feeling Osha was going to bite it, and that the apple paring knife was just a trap/taunt. Ramsay may be impulsive/reckless in some of the long term political strategies, but not when it comes to that kind of thing. Also, it seemed a bit like another loose end they were trying to get rid of. And possibly another actress off the payroll…although I can appreciate the neatness of now having something for the Pink Letter to taunt about without a FArya like in the books.
While Dany’s triumphant burning was a bit reminiscent of the first season, it was still pretty awesome – nice to see something go right for the characters for once! I hope the Dosh Khaleen become her allies! There is something interesting to be explored there (and even in Dany herself) – they are honored, in a way, and they serve the Dothraki and uphold their traditions, but many of them probably hate those traditions (such as the Lhazareen khaleesi). And even Dany still seems to have a certain amount of respect for the culture and a sense of ‘belonging’ to them even though they basically embody everything she is fighting against. Is she going to try to change their culture from within too? Will she have more legitimacy than she did in Mereen, where she is viewed as a foreign power coming to impose her ideals on them? Tyrion of course seems to take a more practical view of things which, galling as it is, may end up being more effective in the long run. The Masters will probably never wake up and think, “I’ve been wrong this whole time” so unless you are going to kill all of them (which, practically, may not actually be the smartest thing to do from an administration standpoint, and would probably also prolong the bloodshed)…you probably do have to work with them in some way and then let cultural shifts happen over the course of time. But of course I totally get where Missandei and Grey Worm are coming from as in a way it seems like going against your ideals and letting them get away with it.
The plot against the Sparrows is certainly thickening. On one hand, as the review mentions, the High Sparrow is right, in principle at least. The high families DON’T care about the smallfolk, have done horrific things at the expense of others and if they commit crimes they should pay the price like anybody else, and be subject to the same judgment (although the story has them focusing mostly on the sexual behavior of the accused, which I think was pointed out last season as the shorthand for ‘these guys are evil’. WHich in a way is a shame, because again, there is an interesting story to tell there in which they actually have some valid claims but are also very flawed). On the other hand, the skeptical part of me wonders if even the High Sparrow’s conversion story is true or just something he is saying to go with his image story. Or it could be true, and he could be sincere in his convictions, but also an extremist and, if not an outright sadist, somebody who would believe the end justifies the means when it comes to spiritual cleansing. In some ways, perhaps, an interesting parallel to Melisandre, who does horrific things out of sincere convictions that she believes will ultmately save the majority. Or of course he could be 100% faking it.
Oh, and on that note, I was so waiting for Brienne to tell Davos what REALLY happened to Shireen. He definitely does not know yet, and I really hope we get to see that moment, although it will be heartbreaking.
Tektonica (Hi Tek!!!) @20
Yeah, fun on the Kingsroad with Sir Davos and Mel. She seems very down in the dumps now that she has realized her mistake….and perhaps all the time wasted, and people she killed in her ignorance. She and Rullor are NOT invulnerable!
That is certainly one teaming up that’s going to be interesting, and in the way I view the whole scenes with Dany at the end she’s in for another downer. Because if I am right we just saw a sign of Dany (and not Jon) being Azor Ahai, meaning Mel is betting on the wrong horse again. I would almost feel a little sorry for her (hah, who am I kidding here).
Who I also am not feeling sorry for is the High Sparrow, and especially that Septa that loves reading scriptures to her captives. Because now that Cersei has won over uncle Kevan and the Queen of Thorns, she is coming for the both of them. I’m probably biased here because if there is one thing I cannot stand it is religious righteousness paired up with hypocrisy. In this case I will root for Cersei; I know, she did create this monster, but she has the means now to set that straight. Bring out the Gimp Ser Gregorstein…
And hurray for Littlefinger being back. We need more backstabbing schemes! ;) (I hadn’t recognized Sweetrobin at first btw.)
Well, that was pretty ingenious. Frankly, after episodes 1 and 2 I thought that this season was going to be very bad, but 3 and 4 give me some hope. Sure, B&B have changed a lot and much of it for the worse, but at least now it looks that they can, at least, deliver something coherent even lacking a book to base things on.
Speaking of Targaryens and fire, sure they are not fireproof in GRRM’s writings (the series, Dunk and Egg novellas, TWOIAF) including Dany apart from that one miracle of dragon-hatching.
However, they seem to be more fire and heat-resistant than normal people. Dany does like baths that are hotter than what would be normally comfortable and at least one other Targ is mentioned doing so as well. There are 2 examples of Targs surviving very extensive burns (by dragonflame, no less!), which should be iffy given their level of medicine. There is a mention of a certain Targ never getting sunburn during a very hot Summer, despite his fair skin. Finally, while Dany herself does get a bit burned in the books during the events in the pit, her burns heal very quickly and easily, despite complete lack of medical attention or even clean water.
And, of course, in the books Dany is sharing a charred horse with Drogon when Dothraki stumble upon them,so a certain level of respect and awe is going to be inherent from the start of their interactions, while in the series they are very sparing with presence of CGI characters and went full LoTR (capture of Merry and Pippin) with Dany instead. So it made sense to repeat a scene from season one, rather than one of the immediately preceding season, with Drogon swooping in to the rescue (again). As to the temple going up in flames so quickly, I thought that the braziers were filled with oil? And it spread the fire and was the reason why the khals et. al. didn’t try to jump Dany. And yea, that one Lazareen widow probably helped to prepare the temple accordingly.
@40 (hi Isilel) -yeah, booby-trapped braziers. Sounds like a cool punk band.
@39 (hi Fid) – Dany is the prince that was promised and Jon is Azor Ahai – Mel is missing it by THIS MUCH.
@38 (Hi LM) – I don’t think Brienne knows what happened to Shireen. Why should she?
@35 (hi A) – if the preview shows Sansa and LF talking, then LF has the Orb back at triple power.
@42 Hi yourself :) I thought perhaps she was going to reveal that she found her burned body.
@39 How is the High Sparrow hypocritical? He seems to practice what he preaches. He may in fact be self righteous (or he may not be – he may genuinely believe he needs atonement as well) but these seem to be knee jerk criticisms people throw at religious people. Which is not to say there aren’t things to criticize about him or his methods, but unless a future episode shows him in a brothel or living luxuriously off of church money (possible, in this show) I’m not sure hypocritical is the word to use. Don’t get me wrong, I haven’t ruled out the possibility that he is manipulating this to his own ends for power and doesn’t care about the smallfolk, but for now I think he does care, although his methods aren’t great. I think torture is awful so I’m not saying he’s a warm and fuzzy guy, and I also think he might have some Manichaeist tendencies in his asceticism, but I think he probably actually believes – and tries to live out to the best of his ability – what he says, and in a way that might make him even more formidable (and in my opinion, a more interesting character).
If he is self righteous I think it would be in the way that sometimes humility can, somewhat ironically, lead to a sense of being the one who has it right, or that they know the best, etc. But I don’t think he literally thinks he is better than other people (at least not on his own power). He may certainly believe in the rightness of his mission, but that’s not always the same as being self righteous.
@Lisamarie, my ‘hypocritical’ remark was not meant towards religious people in general. It was meant at the way the High Sparrow is getting his confessions, which is plain Inquisition style* . He himself is not doing the dirty work of course: the septas are using the stick treatment here, while the High sparrow dangles the carrots in front of first Cersei and now Margaery.
I do believe the only reason he cares (or seems to care but the difference is of no consequence) for the common people is that their numbers are bigger. The man wants total power, either for himself or for his religion, and one can only hope the first is the case.
I know this is Westeros, but he is giving his prisoners a treatment that falls in line with what he accuses the nobility of towards the common man. His court of law in principle is exactly the same as the worldly courts in Westeros. The cases against Margaery and Loras were not that different from Tyrion’s trial when you look at them. Whether or not Cersei played a role is of no consequence to me; Cersei wasn’t the one performing the trials, the High Sparrow was. I am assuming here that common courts work with witnesses and evidence in a similar way to what we have seen with nobility, although it will probably stay with one session in those.
Of course in the TV adaptation it’s a little different from the books where we actually see witnesses hanging from the torture rack. It may have been implied (I’d have to rewatch last season and unfortunately I lack the time for that). I also get the impression the TV High Sparrow appears to be a nicer man than the Books counterpart.
* I recall reading a historian proving with statistics that in fact the number of cases held in total by the Inquisition was not as high as one might assume and that its reputation went a lot with the threats after a number of such cases, but the details have escaped me; it’s been a while since I could study this kind of stuff for fun and my area of specialization was 19th/20th century History. So my phrase ‘inquisition style’ should be read as related to common belief about it.
@44 – ah, I just edited/clarified my remark :) At any rate, while I think it is certainly wrong to do so, I don’t know that torture itself counts as hypocritical, since as far as I know he isn’t preaching against torture. Although your remark about the courts is interesting and I hadn’t really considered that he was specifically speaking out against their court system and trials (I didn’t get that impression/missed it myself).
For the record – I agree with you that torture is not in accordance with the dignity of the person. But I also wonder if in that type of mindset it’s either worth it (to cleanse the soul) and if he would view the same types of punishments appropriate for common folk as well. Or perhaps he takes the view that the rich and priveleged have more opportunity and therefore more responsiblity and culpability and so need more ‘purification’ (again. Not advocating for this personally!). I’m not sure it’s hypocrtical, per se, though. Maybe a little bit. But not in the same way, as, for example, the typical stories you hear about church leaders harping on about family values and being very harsh and judgmental towards those with those same struggles and acting like you’ve got it all figured out, and then having all sorts of secret affairs, etc.
But I do agree that he’s wily, and is probably playing the ‘bad cop, good cop’ routine a bit. I suppose you might be able to argue that is hypocritical in a fashion.
Like I said, I’m not arguing that he’s an awesome guy or that their methods of punishment is justified (I hate sounding like I’m defending a torturer), just that it seems (and sorry if I sounded like I was attacking you personally) that ‘hypocritical’ is kind of a go-to word people use against ‘bad’ religious people even if it doesn’t actually fit what they are.
@43 – He’s a total hypocrite. If his story is to be believed, he led a good life, then had a religious epiphany, and changed his life. So this somehow gives him the right and authority to beat and torture other people until they have a similar conversion experience? He’s as much of a bully as Cersei.
While he sacrificed his worldly wealth, he never suffered the physical pain he’s dishing out.
@Lisamarie, to me his talking about the people being treated sort of implied the court system as well. That could be me seeing too much in it, but it’s the feeling I got, also because under the guidance of this high Sparrow the Church has become involved with worldly affairs.
Also, I don’t want to compare Westerosi religion with modern bad apples in religious organizations. To me such a comparison would only matter if Martin was writing his story as a criticism. :)
Oh, and I wasn’t assuming for one minute you were agreeing with his methods ;)
So, the fervent Brienne/Tormund Giantsbane shipping is pretty much my favorite thing about this week so far:
https://twitter.com/LadyLyanna_/status/732251286532325376
@46 – wellll, it is possible he subjected himself to similar physical mortifications himself (as various religious, mystics, etc have throughout the ages), but yes, I agree with your point. I guess I wouldn’t have specifically flagged that as ‘hypocrisy’ but I can see how that makes sense.
@@@@@#1 and #3 Except Dany being resistant to fire wasn’t a one time thing in the book. When Drogon frees her from the pit only her clothes and her hair are burnt. The rest of her is fine. Regardless what Martin said about it years later it in an interview, it wasn’t a special one-off. And has been pointed out, the tv show is different from the books. Just add that to the long list.