…You mean we still have more Game of Thrones left after the Battle of Winterfell?!
Oh right, the most hated couple in all of Westeros are still alive. Just look at those smug faces, with their fancy velvet clothes and well-rested armies. This aggression will not stand, man.
As this is the very final stretch of the very final season, we’re going to keep the ravens flying with an open discussion thread. Come join us in drinking the Cersei haterade (i.e. wine), and don’t forget to wear your sunglasses because after last week, your eyes might need to adjust to all this daylight.
As always, all spoilers for show episodes that have aired on HBO, as well as the published books, are fair game in the comments, and we ask that you keep our commenting guidelines in mind and keep the conversation constructive and civil—otherwise, go nuts!
What we’re still talking about a week later:
- Keep basking in the glow of Arya as Azor Ahai with these reaction videos.
- Have you taken the Arya Challenge yet? (Protip: start with your toothbrush before working your way up to a dagger.)
- One last time for the jerks in the back: Arya Stark is not a Mary Sue. (Because a girl has no name. Duh. But also because she’s had seven seasons of training from some of the best murderers in the entire world, and it ain’t like Jon Snow was going to be voted MVP of the North.)
Reactions post-watch:
Oh dragonballs, things are really at a low point for Team Dany.
No Jorah, no Rhaegal, and no Missandei. No loyal advisors. No adoring crowds. No honeymoon phase with her nephew-boyfriend.
It all really bugs me because I’ve been rooting for Dany since the first episode and I’m really thinking they’re just gonna hand Jon Snow the Iron Throne at the eleventh hour and it’s not sitting well with me. What’s he done that’s been so great since getting named King of the North? He worked hard and fair for that; I wouldn’t take that title away, but he hasn’t been making great decisions since.
It feels like the show is determined to make Dany out to be a corrupted tyrant while also nerfing all the power she has attained. A mediocre dude is getting slapped on the back for riding a dragon; meanwhile, Dany did that four seasons ago, with so much less. She was a better tactician and fighter than Jon at the Battle of Winterfell and no one toasts her.
Why did Rhaegal need to die? The chips were down enough for Jon and Dany’s side with their exhausted army. How did Euron grab Missandei in the chaos of a sea assault and how did Cersei know Missandei was Dany’s bestie and her death would enrage her? It just seemed stupid and a lazy way to fridge Missandei so Grey Worm can be even angrier when he fights next week.
I’m glad her last words were “Dracarys,” because seriously? Why wouldn’t Dany be pissed beyond all measure? She’s sacrificed everything to help the North and they still hate her.
Burn them all.
Other women in the realm also got ignored or stomped on. Why does no one ever listen to Sansa? She is not wearing her best battle armadillo look to sit around doing embroidery. She is the real Warden of the North. While I think she is way too suspicious of Dany, it makes sense she’d still vote for Jon as king. If they listened to Sansa, Missandei would have her head and Dany would still have two dragons.
Sansa sure is lousy at secrets, though. But so is Jon. Ned kept that secret for decades. Maybe it would’ve been smarter to sort that succession out after Cersei was defeated.
So, yeah, this episode left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Like, not feeling a lot of suspense or surprise for the ending at the moment.
And then to see Brienne reduced to blubbering over Jaime leaving for King’s Landing? It was a nice love scene between them. I’m still of the mind that he’s going to try to kill Cersei, but why wouldn’t he tell Brienne that and assuage some heartbreak? Why do people hide such pertinent info? It’s so forced.
I’m glad Tormund will be safe Beyond the Wall and that Samwell and a pregnant Gilly will also not be in harm’s way. Cersei is a wonderful villain, but Euron is so terrible, it’s not even fun to hate him. Euron feels like such a slap in the face after we’ve had formidable villains like Joffrey, Ramsay, and Tywin.
But it sure is fun to watch his face as he tries to do the math on Cersei’s pregnancy.
I’m most looking forward to Arya and the Hound picking up their roadtrip one more time. Sandor was great with both Stark sisters tonight. It broke my heart a little to hear Sandor express regret that Sansa never left King’s Landing with him and for her to acknowledge that she wouldn’t be who she is without her tough life lessons. And I wouldn’t have Arya hanging around a castle as some cute dupe’s wife while the biggest remaining name on her list still draws breath.
Between Jon’s army, Jaime’s confusing boner, Arya’s Needle, and Dany’s flaming rage, I’d be floored if Cersei survives the end of the next episode.
Final thoughts:
- Tormund getting blocked by two Lannisters was hilarious, if also a little disappointing. You know Tormund wouldn’t have left Brienne.
- I can only imagine the epic awkwardness of Gendry telling the Hound that he slept with his murder-daughter. I didn’t realize they were such great confidantes.
- Bran geeking out over a wheelchair design was kinda cute and human. Man, what a sad fate he’s resigned himself to.
- Bronn gonna Bronn. I wouldn’t count on Highgarden just yet.
- Varys is such a tough character to like. His talk about who is “the Realm” was very touching, and yet he swore that he wouldn’t plot behind Dany’s back. She was technically not wrong to distrust him, but, again, people act like she’s crazy for this.
- Next week: How much damage can a Mad Queen do in King’s Landing?
Theresa DeLucci is a regular contributor to Tor.com covering TV, book reviews and sometimes games. She’s also gotten enthusiastic about television for Boing Boing, Wired.com’s Geek’s Guide to the Galaxy podcast and Den of Geek. Send her a raven via Twitter.
I’ll post more when we get a full review but I really, really enjoyed this episode. It was moving/touching when I needed to, and tense when it needed to be.
A few thoughts:
1)You have the best assassin in the world – why not just send her after Cersei???? (I mean, I know that’s kind of what’s happening, but I don’t know why they don’t think of that…)
2)Oh, Jon…nobody can keep their mouth shut. Although Sansa also is clearly playing her own game.
3)Tryrion is hopelessly deluded when it comes to both Cersei AND Dany.
4)I never thought I would actually ship Jaime and Brienne, but they totally sold it. And then crushed it :( Damn it, Jaime. All this ‘I have to be loyal to the FAMILY’ stuff has to stop. And honestly, I’d say that to the Starks too, in some ways, even if in some ways they at least are partially on the right track. But as for Jaime, he needs to learn what the most important step a man can take is ;)
5)As for Jon (again) – him sending Ghost away seems like a really bad move.
@1,
Jon sending Ghost away is to make him isolated. Just like killing off Jorah and Missandei isolates Dany. (and you can see the crazy on her face coming up) Basically, now we get to see who they really are when the people closet to them are gone.
They broke Brienne. Left her crying in the snow like every other woman whose man leaves.
I’m an OFWG and even I got that they broke Brienne’s character right there. It wasn’t right.
@2, yeah, Dany is a woman with nothing to lose, basically at this point. And while especially in some of the early seasons I wasn’t a huge fan of Clarke’s acting, I could feel that crazy coming through the screen.
That said, it just seems like whenever a Stark sends their direwolf away…bad things happen.
What’s an OFWG?
Solid episode, though I didn’t like it as much as the previous 3. Still, the cremation was moving and they kept the tension throughout. Jon sure does have Ned’s flaw of insisting on telling everyone. You’d think that if Ned could keep 1 secret, Jon could keep the same one. But no.
I’m a bit puzzled by where Jaime’s headed (character-wise). Is he mired in self-loathing enough to really return to Cersei? Was that an excuse to head south because he intends to kill her? I can’t tell.
I do wish the season were long enough to give us oh, 4-5 full episodes of the Hound and Arya on the road together.
@@.-@, Old F******g White Guy. I’m a fossil from a bygone age where men were men and women were women. Still struggling to come to terms with the modern age, although I have bent a little. I no longer call people “trannies” or say “thats so gay”. A work in progress, as it were.
And an additional comment about Missandei. I honestly thought she was gonna jump to her death before Cersei could give the order. As a former slave, I would think (based on reading way too much) that even at that point she would want to be in control of her life and keep Cersei from having the moment.
Ah, I see. Well, I’d like to think Brienne isn’t really broken quite yet, and I think in general they’ve built her up as a stong and nuanced character so I don’t see her as being reduced to just this. And I think she will recover.
That said, I also kind of wonder of Jaime was just trying to shake her off and basically intends to do a kind of suicide-by-cop thing and try to take out Cersei himself.
I wonder how long it’s going to take Euron to figure out that the only time Tyrion could have figured out that Cersei was pregnant was BEFORE Euron slept with her….. And what will happen when he does. He’s good at two things, being creepy and killing people; a bastion of forgiveness, he is not.
@8 oh man I had not thought about that, heh.
I am SO down for a Hound and Arya buddy show. Absolutely.
Nice episode with touching moments, could have been better though…
So much to unpack in this one.
How did he not finish that speech with “And now their watch has ended.” If the people fighting for the living couldn’t be honorary Night’s Watch, nobody can.
One woman tells Gendry he’s a Lord, then another tells him he was a booty call. So, good news and bad news.
Danaerys seems to be giving a very specific chronology to what will happen if Jon’s secret gets out. I can’t see how this is in any way blatant foreshadowing.
Oh, Jon. You may not be Ned’s son, but you inherited his decision-making abilities. Even Brann said it was your /choice/. You didn’t have to tell them anything. You just say “Yep, I’m your brother” and move on with your life with your hot aunt/lover/queen.
Of course those two are headed south together. Hopefully they can stop somewhere for some chickens on the way.
Dragonstone! Glad to see we’re…
What.
The.
Fuck.
I hate Euron Greyjoy.
No, Danaerys, don’t burn the city. That’s bad.
No, Varys, don’t commit treason, that’s bad.
No, Tyrion, don’t approach the city and give your sister a reason to fill you so full of arrows that you look like a very-intelligent, often-drunk porcupine.
Oh, that didn’t happen? Way to go soft on me, GoT.
Dracarys. Damn right — someone’s gonna burn.
Final thoughts:
Jaime is totally going south to kill Cersei. He may not know that yet himself, but that’s where it’s going. But it looks like when it comes to killing Cersei, there may be a queue.
This looks like another job for the “infiltrate and assassinate” squad, especially since the previews seemed to show Tyrion in the tunnels under the Red Keep.
I really, really hate Euron Greyjoy.
(Oh, and I didn’t forget about Bronn, I deliberately left him off the list because we knew he wasn’t going to kill those two, and he has about as much chance of being lord of Highgarden as Missandei has of winning a hat-wearing contest.
Was that too soon?)
This episode moved me emotionally in ways last week’s didn’t. So many tears and cries of “NO!!!” – mostly over the animals. John sending Ghost away, and not even saying “good-bye,” just wrong.
The dragon’s death… NO! To not see the fleet from her upper view is just… ugh.
You can just see the writers turning her into another crazy Targ ruler. Missandei’s death… So many sad feelings.
Brie and Jamie – I hope she’s not broken. I hope she moves on from him. He’s so wrapped around his longer love for his sister, despite all her betrayals. I really don’t know if I want Arya or Jamie to kill her more. I just want Cersei to die.
Jon not even hugging Ghost… It’s almost like they didn’t have the budget to film it. Just act at empty space over there… we’ll add him in post.
I’m OK with Dany not becoming queen. If this series is going to stand as groundbreaking fantasy, it can’t end with the “divine right” trope. She’s destined to rule and the old order must be restored. That would be boring.
I’m thinking GRR Martin had something else in mind, something more akin to Hamlet. Whether the show handles it well remains to be seen.
I see the writers and directors are fully committed to throwing any resemblance of common sense out of the window for thrill’s sake. All bridges burnt by now, I guess…
Last week we saw stupid strategy and tactics, some which could have been easily been corrected with little impact of the show’s plans; other’s that could have easily been justified had they spared 5 seconds to inser one or two scenes… and other’s, of course that made little freaking sense under any circumstance. And this week we have more of that. Who, by the old and new goods, just sails a war fleet into a port you’ve left behind weeks or month agou (and one that’s at the doors of your enemy, on top of that) without sending scouts first? Who, at arrival takes their best weapon for a casual stroll over terrain you’re not 100% shure to controll? WTF? And then, why taking Missandrei and not Tyrion (a much better prize for Euron to present to Cercei)? Yes, they could have just “not found” Tyrion, of did they just pick up the first half-remembered face they saw? Also, How the heck did Danerys even get to Kings Landing? If Eurons fleet is there (even if they retreated after the ambush) just cassually sailing over (with your last dragon) make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE!
I’m aware that the show can’t be a military strategy & tactics 101, but there’s got to be a minimum of sense in this or you risk people having a really hard time to enjoy this once the quiestions start to kick in. This was a weak and lackluster eppisode, but it wasn’t particularly boring or offensively stupid… untill you think back at all these cheap plot devices and all the ones thay’ve already accumulated (like plot speed et all) and it sours your experience in retrospect.
By the way @2 I think the idea that sending Ghost away is so that Jon feels isolated makes NO sense in the context of the show. For the past couple of seasons the poor wolf hasn’t interacted at all with him. In the last battle he was charging with the Dothraki, not with Jon, not sent by Jon to protect his people in the cryps,… THere have been whole seasons where Ghost was little more than another piece of decoration in the background (not even a prop). So, no, even if the showrunners think they’re symbolizing something with sending Ghost to the fridg… I mean the north, it means nothing. I guess someone in the writiers team must really hate ghost for some reason.
There’s a little black spot on the Sun today…
Loved the episode. I’ve always been more interested in the denouement than in the actual climax, so watching how everyone dealt with the aftermath of the great war was more enjoyable than watching people waving swords
I feel really bad for Dany right now.
Her whole journey has been leading up to the Iron Throne, and right before she took it, some handsome northern guy shows up talking about grumpkins and snarks. She goes out on a limb and saves his beautiful ass, along with his ungrateful family, losing most of her massive army in the process.
Then, when it’s time to finally take that stupid sword chair, some of her most trusted advisors start to question her claim. And to make matters worse, now her greatest supporter is her main rival for the throne. He doesn’t want it, but almost everyone else wants him.
That sucks for her.
PS: I think Jon’s gonna die. He was saying goodbye to everybody who loved him. Strange that they didn’t show Arya or Sansa in that farewell scene. Or how they completely skipped their reaction to finding out the truth about him.
PPS: I thought for sure Dany would be pregnant this season, but maybe she isn’t? Or if she is, they’ll save the reveal for when Jon dies, for greater dramatic effect.
Only two left.
Euron Greyjoy just kind of sucks as a character. He just seems to exist to artificially raise the stakes. And reality just kind of bends to work for him. The Targaryen fleet takes the beating he dishes out with no response.
Honestly, Euron could be replaced with a robot and his magic super ballistae with laser cannons, and he’d still inflict the same amount of narrative helplessness on everyone else.
So Tyrion spills the beans about the pregnancy. Hopefully Euron is smart enough to figure out she was already pregnant and Cerci lied to him so she can manipulate him. There is no way Tyrian would have known about the pregnancy if she wasn’t already pregnant before Euron was in the picture. Wake up uncle Greyjoy. She may have to kill you to. Run. Although poison may be better than being burned. Either way I’ll be glad when your gone.
And yeah, super lame move to leave your wolf behind Jon. Jon is such a gentle character how can they tarnish it with this? My favorite until he gives away his wolf. Maybe he is just afraid he will die on the coming battle against Cerci. Either way that is weak. So disappointed…I speculate Danny will be the one to kill Cerci but will die to. Then Jon can go get his wolf back. Or just give it to Brienne. She will need it if Jaimie dies to. Big possibility since he is not thinking straight with all that carried guilt.
Can’t imagine how they are going to wrap all the lose ends in 2 episodes.
I loved this episode. All the character drama, the fraught interactions, the shifting alliances… that’s pretty much my favourite kind of GoT.
I certainly don’t see Brienne as broken. Jesus, people are allowed to show emotion when they lose something they’d dearly wanted. I’m pretty sure Jaime is riding to kill Cersei. He had no problems with the armies going to kill Cersei until now; he only rides when he knows Dany’s in trouble and Cersei might win. He’s riding South to put a stop to her.
There are so many little moments that I loved: Sandor and Sansa and the “little bird”. Gendry getting a lordship (but then getting rejected, poor man). Hound and Arya setting off for the south to settle things their way. Tyrion and Varys’s conversation. Missandei’s last words. Tormund peacing out with his wildlings. Dany’s isolation at the feast, seeing how everyone else is connected through family and history and she’s not: that was painful to watch, and great character drama. The shock of Rhaegal being shot. The whole episode was full of tension, dread, levity at the start, grief at the end — it was fantastic.
I’m actually unexcited for the final 3 episodes and might only watch them after the final. I’m not feeling the love at all and worrying about a Lost style ball drop. Such a shame as we will never get the book endings IMO. (I have been looking forward to this since 1996)
@21 I have the exact same fear – I can’t handle another great series with terrible ending, Lost was such a disappointment and I never wanted to see it again. I hope it doesn’t happen to GoT.
Regarding books, I also have the same feeling – but there’s a tiny little dream in the back of my brain that after the credits roll for the last episode, there will be a message on screen “get the latest book – available now”.
Hopes.
@1, 2 – Sending Ghost away was a bad idea.
Not even done to isolate Jon, but to save the showrunner’s budget due to the ludicrously high cost of animating a Direwolf.
I get it. But I cannot forgive Jon not saying bye to Ghost and at least giving him some last scratches. Especially given the plaintive whine, and how beat up the poor wolf loofs after the battle.
My biggest frustration with this show, is that it doesn’t allow its characters to grow.
Jaime makes a huge leap in getting over Cersei? Meh, lets send him back to KL(I’m with Theresa that he’s going to try to stop Cersei from destroying Kings Landing, as he has before, but still)
Arya finds her home again, and forswears vengeance? Meh, killing the Night King got her back in the vengeancing mood(I don’t want her settling down in Storm’s End either, but still)
Again and again, these characters demonstrate growth, and then in the very next scene, they act as they always have.
It’s aggravating. I mean, at this point, the writers know they can do what they want, and we’re gonna stick with it. But it shows.
I mean, they’ve been building up this romance with Jaime and Brienne, to begin and end it in one episode??? I’d rather have not had it, thanks.
And as far as Euron’s fleet, I don’t know, circle around, attack them from the side?? They were kinda packed into that channel with not a lot of room to maneuver, seems like she could have got them all in one pass, if she’d attacked from a different direction.
Also, no scouts????
We all pointed out in previous seasons how stupid it was for all these people to just abandon Dragonstone, I was honestly surprised the Golden Company wasn’t holding it.
Anyone else see a Starbucks on a table about 15 minutes in?
Edit: Yep, it’s there.
This entire episode made zero fucking sense. Like, virtually nothing that happened had a lick of narrative logic supporting it. Arya rejecting Gendry’s proposal and riding south with Sandor was basically it.
Oh, and it does make some sense that the entire saga is bookended by Sansa fucking everything up telling family secrets to a goddamn Lannister.
They really trashed the women this episode, didn’t they?
-Dany descends into madness, gets stupid and loses another dragon.
-Brienne becomes a weeping romance heroine, reduced to her virginity and loss thereof.
-Sansa credits her rape and abuse for making her what she is today, and breaks her word the first chance she gets just to score against Dany.
-Missandei, the only WOC on the show, is chained up and killed. Way to read the room on that one, D&D!
-Cersei has always been reviled so nothing new there, but she descended to new lows.
-Arya is the only woman who didn’t get trashed in some way. Yay?
Oh, and Ghost wasn’t sent away to isolate Jon. He hadn’t even seen the wolf in 3 seasons. He was sent away because they didn’t want to have to pay for the lame separated shots they were using to quiet the fans demanding his presence.
@1 – are you hinting at the Stormlight Archive – GoT crossover I never knew I wanted????!! My mind just exploded.
I’d love to see the following character interactions: Renarin and Bran, Sadeas and Littlefinger, Rock, Lopen and Tormund, Jasnah and Tyrion, and finally Wit with anyone from Thrones.
28. shellywb What is WOC?
Is anyone else super confused about timelines in this show? If Cersai is pregnant with Jaime’s baby and using Euron to cover up that fact, how is she not even showing yet? Dany went North with Jon, fought a war against the freaking White Walkers, and traveled all the way back south and Cersai barely looks pregnant. I mean, I know you can hide a lot with clothes (especially gowns), but honestly, at this point shouldn’t she be close to actually giving birth if this is still Jaime’s child?
Woman of Color.
Of course they killed Messandei, angst is all on this show. And don’t you love how the Night King was downgraded to secondary villain?
@29, hah, yes. Glad somebody else caught it :)
We’re deep in the Oathbringer re-read so it’s kind of interesting to look at Jaime in the same light as the ‘irredeemable’ character on a redemption arc and how the two different stories handle it.
Didn’t Euron question how Tyrion already knew that Cersei is pregnant?? From Euron’s perspective, Cersei just discovered she was pregnant and Euron is the father…..How, then, would Tyrion already know that Cersei is pregnant if he’s been in Winterfell this entire time. I know “word travels” or whatever, but Cersei literally told Euron this episode she was pregnant, so wouldn’t he question how Tyrion has somehow already found out and is confident enough with the information to try and use it to sway Cersei?!
@35 and others,
Didn’t Faramir say that “news oft comes swiftly to kin” or something like that? Perhaps Jaime and Tyrion got PM’d by her with the good news…
Aeryl (25): For all the online criticism the military tactics in E3 got, this episode was far worse (though on a lesser scale).
It’s clear that the show wants us to see Dany descending into madness. I can kind of see that: anger leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side, I guess. But they’ve actually made her a more sympathetic character and Sansa a much less one AFAIC. Seriously, telling Jon’s secret to Tyrion fucking Lannister? As bad as Jon’s reveal was, that was far worse — reveal and betrayal both. At this point I may see Dany more as Lear and Sansa as Regan or Goneril.
@15: They got Missandei because she got in the skiff as Greyworm told her to do. Everyone who ended up in the water got ashore, but the skiff was easy to spot and seize.
This seemed a tale of two episodes to me. It opened strongly with the funeral and most of the other scenes at in Winterfell showed a nice balance of humor and touching emotion with good character interactions, especially scenes with the Hound. Gendry/Arya felt a product of trying to cram too much into too few episodes this season, but otherwise, I found the Winterfell half , pre-battle “planning” (hard to call such incompetence planning) well done.
And then it was all downhill from there. The drama over the Northern forces seemed silly—they just fought a ridiculous battle, of course they (Dany’s forces as well) need rest/recuperation, especially as there’s no sense of time being a factor at all. We’re told Cercei is bleeding allies, and by bringing all the people in she’s causing herself more administrative problems and thus risking unrest. But the worst was how after being ambushed once by Euron’s fleet, it strains credulity past the breaking point that they wouldn’t be looking for it. Not to mention taking zero advantage of aerial support (i.e. scouting high and far ahead). What, did they all forget they were at war?
As for the throne. I don’t buy Jon as the eventual king and actually think the scenes that allegedly point to that are all clumsy misdirection. For instance, Tormund’s praise of Jon seemed ham-fisted writing and made little sense for the character. He’s fought beside women, praised women’s toughness, and loves “the big woman”—what prior to this would make us think he’d wholly ignore Dany also riding a dragon as opposed to being impressed by it? Commenting on both riding dragons and adding some vulgar aside (“do ya call what you two do at night ‘riding the dragon’ now boy?” or something like that) would make a lot more sense for that character. In any case, I can see Jon using dragonflame to melt the throne more easily than I see him sitting on it. As for Dany, she’s always been set up as too single-minded and entitled, and it’s be disappointing if she suddenly veers from that. Sansa I think she cares only about the North. I see her being Queen of the North in her own right and the hell with the south. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Bronn sit his cutthroat ass down on the throne at the end, especially given his speech
I don’t understand why abandon Ghost. If the showrunners thought he was expensive, why not kill the wolf during the battle with the Night King? For extra drama make Jon find the undead direwolf during the battle. I was one of the people who complained about not enough main characters dying in the battle against the Night King, Some characters here got a send-off (like Sam and Gilly) somewhat uncharacteristic of the show, with basically a happy-ever-after. At least Tormund had some great lines still to utter, Sam or Gilly had very bland ones.
And Euron killing one of the dragons with his ultra-tech ballistae is just to make him and Cersei a credible threat. Logically it would’ve made more sense for the dragon to have been killed by the White Walkers (with an ice lance, like the first one, or by the undead dragon). Up the ante, up the drama, showrunners. Then, when all is lost, with Ghost, Rhaegal and others as undead, make Arya save the day.
After having some more time to think about it, and read through reviews –
Honestly, I don’t know how I feel about Sansa. I’ve always been slightly suspicious of Dany, or at least wary of her. I think she HAS earned quite a bit, but I think if the scenes with Jon show anything, it’s that she doesn’t quite have the ‘people’ skills. She still (to the North, at least) is coming off as a bit frosty/entitled/unyielding. Yes, the people in the slave cities love her, with good reason, but to the North she’s basically an invader, and the descendent of a king they already overthrew. Jon, for all his doofiness, has at least managed to build bridges between disparate peoples.
As for Sansa, I share her hesitation (and annoyance at being brushed aside at the war council) but I don’t know that blabbing secrets to Tryrion Lannister (and you have to think she knew what she was doing) to sow discord is the right thing to do either in this scenario. Perhaps she sees Dany as enough of a threat to risk it, even in the midst of fighting Cersei. Whether that’s being savvy, or just petty/jealous I suppose is left to debate.
And as others have pointed out, as much as I like Dany overall – why exactly does she have the ‘right’ to rule? I mean – she at least does have some sense of wanting to make things better for the common people, but for all she talks about breaking the wheel, she still predicates her claim on the fact that she’s the descedent of Aerys Targaryen. And even if I was going to buy into the whole lineage thing…at what point does a ruling family lose its claim? Heck, you could argue Gendry has a better claim on the throne, if you feel the Baratheon house is now the righful ruler of Westeros – especially now that Dany legitimized him (althouh I suppose that’s a bit circular, given that the only reason his legitimacy would be recognized would be by recognizing Dany’s authority to do so…).
So, yeah, like others, I’m hoping the final ending subverts all of this, although so far it does kind of seem like they are pushing us towards Jon ruling with his ‘reluctant king’ schtick.
If you go by what the showrunners said after the episode:
Jaime has decided he cannot be a good man and is going back to Cersei despite her putting a hit out on him and Tyrion and having someone worthwhile to devote himself to.
Sansa is clever and manipulative despite looking unsubtly hostile and catty towards Dany. Breaking her vow to Jon and otherwise. We are being told she is a chess player when it looks like tic tac toe.
That after sleeping with Dany multiple times, Jon now thinks of her as his aunt and cannot be romantic with her..
The audience is going to sympathize with Jon’s secret supporters as the guys wanting a good monarch when they would start his reign by putting Dany to death.
Hate to say this, but if breaking your express word to gain advantage is what Sansa has learned from her “teachers” on her knowledge through suffering path, I don’t want her anywhere near any type of throne. Good grief.
To me, the opening of the Kings Landing gates to let the common folk in means that Arya and the Hound are already inside. FYI, I’m dreading that Arya will try wearing Jaime’s face to get to Cersei, then fail (!!) because of some Qyburn BS, and then have the real Jaime finish the job.
I am so bummed that it all seems to be heading towards Jon-must-kill-the-mad queen. When Tormond says, “You never know,” about Jon returning to Castle Black…well, that gives the game away, I think. He will kill Dany, then head back to the Wall, just to leave his broken heart behind him. Which means there won’t be a Targ/Stark baby (Very disappointing. My hope was that both Jon and Dany die, but the baby becomes the future ruler with Tyrion as the regent.) And the ambush was just stupid. Also, Dany could have taken Euron out by dropping down at a 90 degree angle…but militarily there’s been so much BS that one just has to resign one’s self to the idea that D&D have no clue about military strategy, and basically use battles to forward the narrative. So, I’ll sit back and enjoy the ride, but it’s a shame it’s ending in such a predictable, contrived way.
@42: How could Arya wear the face of someone who’s not dead?
That said, I have expected Arya to die since I read Book 1. For me, every episode this season is like Wesley with The Dread Pirate Roberts: “I’ll probably kill you in the morning.” I’m just not sure I see it happening that way.
@31 & 35: The timelines don’t matter in the show. The showrunners have said that / proven that time and again.
But, to me at least, Cersei was showing her pregnancy already. There was a special type of bump in her dress. No, not full on 8 months pregnant, but still showing. Now, how it’s going to play out if she is alive long enough to deliver the baby is a whole other matter. She might have slept with Euron within her first 2 months.
This would be her 5th pregnancy by the show’s rules. A woman could know early on after that many times. To count: 1) Her lost child with Robert, invented for the show; 2-4) Her three children with Jamie, who Robert thought were his; 5) This one with Jamie, which is probably also invented for the show.
Other note: I’m so glad the lighting crew was allowed to light this episode. Even if I thought the numbers of candles at the feast was wasteful overall. You know, if they were actually facing a winter that would last 4-10 years. However it was also a celebration, so there’s a reason. Guess the Hound is fine with candle flame, even though one good shove would have lit several of those tables on fire fast.
@44 – but Arya impersonated Walder Frey while he was alive last season.
Dany could have attacked Euron’s ships from aft as there were no scorpions mounted to cover that arc and the ships had no room to manuever.
Cersei is likely not pregnant now and never was during the run of the show.
Wildfire people…..wildfire. Cersei is insane. She’s gonna blow that place up just so Dany can’t have it. Kings Landing is bomb waiting to happen.
@48: No, Arya killed Walder Frey at the end of S6 (she took the face of a serving maid). Then, at the start of S7 she used his face to kill the rest of the Freys.
“She was a better tactician and fighter than Jon at the Battle of Winterfell and no one toasts her.”
So she was the tactical genius who sent the Dothraki charging hell for leather into an unknown situation?
I’m already pre-frustrated with next weeks episode that Jamie is going to be able to get down to King’s Landing quickly enough to be a part of the storyline.
@42,44,48,52 Frey was definitely dead. The only time we’ve seen a hiccup in the can you wear the face of the living is in the scene several seasons back where Arya is pulling the faces off Jaquen in rapid succession and sees her own.
Thanks to all for the Arya face issue updates.
Okay, they are buggered now Euron has formed an alliance with the Romulans and acquired cloaking devices for his ships!
Also, there seem to be a lot of ‘comment removed’ in this thread which has got me reaaaallly curious as to what they were all saying…
I keep reading who everyone thinks will kill Cersei (Dany, Jamie, Jon), however, I’m almost positive it will be Arya. “Brown eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes”. Only makes sense that Arya will shut the green eyes of Cersei forever.
I guess I find it hard to believe that an avowed pacifist would use her last words on earth to recommend that her Dragon Queen burn an entire city of innocents. But OK.
Sansa did not break her vow to Jon. He made her promise not to tell anyone what he was about to tell her. And then he proceeded to have Bran tell her the secret.
You have dragons and you are flying how high and you still get ambushed? Really? They don’t know how to use dragons at all it seems and it cost them another.
@59: I’m not much impressed by a technicality like that. A promise involves a good faith effort to keep it, not a hyper-technical reading of the words. Sansa acted in bad faith.
I can’t help but wonder if Robb Stark was really the great tactician everyone made him out to be or if Westeros is just filled with such gross incompetence that they were marveling at him for using basic tactics.
@40, LisaMarie
Yeah, if they are trying to use Dany to tell some tale about the dangers of dynasty, you can’t have the person playing her opposite in this be someone with a greater right to the throne than her. It’s just thrown the story all off.
Dany, as much as I admire her as a character, has also been one I’m wary of as well, just because people who think they are “born to rule” tend to be dangerous to anyone who disagrees with them.
If the point of the story is that no one should believe they are born to rule, having Jon be the one to take her down, is just not accomplishing that.
@46
Even if I thought the numbers of candles at the feast was wasteful overall. You know, if they were actually facing a winter that would last 4-10 years.
Well, they killed the Night King, they aren’t facing that anymore. There were a lot of indicator this episode that the weather had already begun to turn. I mean, if you’re going to call the candles “wasteful” what would you call burning all that wood for the pyres?
@57, There are apparently some leaked stuff about the next episode that addresses a lot of the questions we are having here, so I would guess it’s people posting spoilers.
@59, I didn’t see it as Missandei as saying that either, I saw her calling back to the moment Dany won them their freedom. And she did that by burning only those who wielded the power. I think Missandei was telling Dany to be true to herself, to be the liberator, not the conqueror.
In a perfect world (which GoT is purposely not), perhaps they would break the seven kingdoms into states and elect Tyrion as president. I’d vote for him.
I think people are saying Brienne is “broken” in that it seems out of character for her to cry in front of Jamie. I could buy her crying later, but I feel like she’d try to be stoic and project coldness until he left.
I definitely didn’t like Sansa saying she wouldn’t be the badass bitch she is without all the trauma she’s been through. She was a little bird because she was a sheltered child. Growing up and seeing the world (re: Sansa’s significantly less traumatic arc in the books) could make her just as forward-thinking/savvy and untrusting as she is now.
And the thing is, in real life, trauma doesn’t make a person savvy and strong and all that. Sometimes it really does just…break/scar a person, and make them paranoid, have difficulty with relationships, healthy attachments, etc.
I mean, I can totally get that a person can learn from tough experiences, derive strength from them, etc. And who knows, maybe the point is that Sansa herself has kind of been pushed off the deep end.
@63: Great point about Missandei. I like that way to look at it. I’m not sure Dany saw it that way….
@64: I think it’s not so much that Brienne cried, it’s that she didn’t try to convince Jaime that he’s NOT that person. But as I said in my original comment, I’m not sure whether Jaime really meant it or if he used that as an excuse to deal with Cersei.
Oh my god, someone else who agrees with me on this. =O I am having so much trouble convincing people that this is going to be a problem. I am not alone!
I thought there were good elements to the episode, but overall I was somewhat bored. Heresy, I know!
A lot of stuff bugged me — Jon sending Ghost away, the whole Missendi thing (how did Cersei know she was important — and how did Dany know Cersei had her?), but most importantly that all of a sudden Dany’s mindset is supposed to be ‘concerning’? That’s not something that’s been hinted at by anyone of Dany’s retinue in the past. Personally, I’ve never been so much on her side. She’s been raised to believe that the Iron Throne belongs to her family, but she knows absolutely nothing about Westeros, the politics, the people, etc. As others have commented, when does a throne change hands, really? None of that justifies the sudden side-eye that Varys and Tyrion are giving her, IMO. They’ve been so gung-ho that she’s the right queen, this great ruler, etc., that it just feels weird and too sudden to me. And I can see her angry at Cersei, but I don’t see “madness” that’s supposedly brewing. Bad choices, possibly. Insanity? Not so sure…
I was waiting for Dany to let on that she’s torn between what has become her goal since Viserys’s death and what she knows is right — that Jon should have the throne. That it’s not her throne to sit on, even if it’s something that she really wants at this point and has worked so hard to get. Because it’s never been about Dany, it’s been about her family. And Jon is family, if she believes him, even if he wasn’t raised a Targaryen. But there’s none of that.
As for Sansa, I think Sansa is all about the North. I think she’s over Cersei and the South and political games and Southern kings and queens. She sees Dany as more games and people telling the North what to do and this is some woman who hasn’t been in Westeros since she was a baby? I think if Sansa has to have a king or queen she’d much prefer Jon. But I certainly didn’t like her betraying Jon’s confidence, and I’m not sure if there’s a valid argument for why she did, besides that someone had to tell Tyrion and Varys to really stir the pot…
@65 Yes, sometimes trauma does just break a person, AND sometimes it makes them stronger. You can’t tell me otherwise, because I’ve lived that. While I do wish the show would have done a better job showing us how Sansa has grown into the person she is today – rather than just having horrible things happen to her and telling us it’s made her a stronger person – I absolutely do believe that it is possible for her to be that person.
@42 I think it might be the other way around. I think Jaime will die trying to kill Cersei, and then Arya will do it, wearing his face. I’m not really a fan of it happening this way, but it seems like something the show would do.
My thoughts on Jaime and Brienne – I don’t think Brienne is “broken” over Jaime leaving. She’s allowed to break down and cry over it, then pick herself up and move on like the strong woman she is. I personally, while a fan of their bond and friendship, never actually wanted to see them in a romantic pairing, because Brienne is just too good for him. It’s not like they were ever going to live happily ever after. So I think in the longterm, Brienne will be fine. As for Jaime, I agree he is going to KL to kill Cersei, as he decided to do this after hearing the news that things were going bad for Dany’s forces. Why didn’t he make this clear to Brienne? He doesn’t think he’s coming back, either expecting to get killed doing it or maybe even intending to kill himself. He doesn’t think he deserves Brienne. He just went about trying to make her see that in a really stupid way, but, you know, that’s Jaime.
As for Sansa telling Tyrion Jon’s secret, I guess I am the only one who was kind of relieved she told him. (I will admit I am something of a Sansa apologist; I have pretty much been with her on every decision she’s made this season.) I think Tyrion needs to know. I think everyone needs to know.
I think what they are doing with Dany’s character is fascinating – I just wish the show wasn’t so rushed these days, and we had more time to unpack it. (I think a lot of the character development is often unclear because they’ve rushed it in these later seasons.) Varys was spot on about her – everything she went through in Essos has convinced her she has the divine right to rule in Westeros. It’s why she’s been shoving her right to rule down everyone’s throats since she came to Westeros, rather than making much of an effort to win people over like she did in the east. And she’s allowing that conviction to drive her to make bad decisions that go against her very vision for the world, like burning the Tarlys or letting the people of King’s Landing become collateral damage. I’m definitely not down with Varys’ plan to just straight-up murder her, though.
All that said, I liked that this episode finally made me a little conflicted over Dany, because I’ve really been disliking her since last season, and I didn’t like that I was disliking her. The funny thing is, the things the show did in this episode to make me sympathize with her, I don’t think were intentional. But as a woman, how could you not feel for her in the hall when she looked around and saw all the guys clapping Jon on the back? How could you not feel like, geez, after everything this woman has been through, after everything she’s fought for, this guy is just gonna swoop in and take it? And that was before Varys actually vocalized these thoughts, in pointing out that the lords of Westeros would prefer a man on the throne to a woman.
I don’t want Dany on the throne, but after this episode, I don’t want Jon on it either (and yeah, some of that is because he gave away his dog, WTH Jon, pets are for life!). I kind of don’t want anyone on the Iron Throne. The only one I would maybe be okay with having it, at this point, is maybe Sansa. I do think she’s been maybe a little over suspicious of Dany, but maybe she needed to be, since on the other side of it, Jon’s been looking at Dany through rose-colored glasses, being in love with her and all. I think Sansa is right to question his judgment re: Dany.
@@@@@ 49
Don’t quote me on that, but I think the ballistae were mounted on gyrating platforms, both on the ships and on the towers of King’s Landing. It’s an incredible feat of engineering, considering it seems able to turn even to a very high angle (probably not 90 degrees, but another ballista could hit the dragon while the first ballista was vulnerable)
Also, on unrealistic stuff that happened this episode, let’s count how Bronn can load a quarrel in a crossbow very quickly. Some people did that fast in historical times, but not faster than Jaime or Tyrion could tackle him across a table. Crossbows aren’t rifles or shotguns, people! Normally you’d need a crank to work one of those things. And even if Jaime doesn’t have his good hand anymore, I’m talking about tackling, so that Tyrion could call for help or even help in the fight.
Basically, the crossbow in that scene was used as a shotgun for dramatic purpose, even though it doesn’t work that way.
So many of these issues are problems due to a short season. Brienne should be able to react emotionally, Jamie should be able to question what sort of man he is after being with Brienne, but the problem is because of the need to “wrap things up,” we get literally 10 second of each and that’s it. Brienne cries, but only cries. She doesn’t fight, she doesn’t try to convince him otherwise, she doesn’t try to understand. And so it doesn’t sit well. Jamie announces his view (though it’s possibly it’s not really what it seems) and then is gone—no introspection, no use of visuals to emphasize or question things, no being forced to deal with the ideas. So again, doesn’t sit well.
Sansa (or Arya) don’t wrestle with Jon’s news. They hear it and what seems like thirty seconds later, we see Sansa revealing it—no thoughtfulness on her part, which ruins her character, and the immediacy makes it seem even worse. Arya is back on the road to vengeance, but again, no wrestling with what that means. Varys and Tyrion wrestle with what to do with the news, but we needed more “pre-wrestling” about Dany and then more time discussing Jon’s flaws and merits for that to feel anything like more than fast, cheap plot service. And nothing says fast, cheap plot service than that whole ambush scene and what comes of it. It reads like a student’s final exam where they didn’t get to the essay question until only five minutes left and so they just spit out as much as they can as fast as they can.
@63: Oh I thought the wood priers were wasteful too. But in a way that most funeral goods are wasteful. I mean, they showed them being burned in their full armor and clothing too. That’s a different story.
The death of the Night King will shorten the winter, but GRRM has already established that this planet has a stupid long seasonal cycles. The showrunners ignore the rules of it, except to show snow in the North. Just like they ignore the travel times. Thus Jamie will arrive in time to affect something, despite leaving supposedly weeks after the others.
As for Cerci knowing Missandei was important to Dany – It’s called spies. Missandei was also right next to Dany’s side when the two queens last meet to discuss the Night King and the war. Cerci would hurt anyone close to Dany. Anyone who was at that meeting is close to Dany. I like how @63 sees it.
@69: Cersei knew about Missandei because Missandei was at the dragonpit meeting last season.
“Arya killed Walder Frey at the end of S6 (she took the face of a serving maid).”
Which implies either that she can use living people’s faces, or that she murdered a maid to facilitate her infiltration. Which seems out of character; my impression is she’s tried to be an ethical assassin.
Hmm, or she used a random girl face gambling that Frey wouldn’t pay much attention to the maids. I forget the scene in detail, like whether he recognized her or not.
I also thought it was odd that Tormund again went into the “Jon died and came back” bit that Dany has asked about previously and she didn’t ask Jon about it again. Wonder if that will come up next episode as Dany finds a way to address the Jon-Dany issue.
By the way, my assumption is he will expressly abdicate for love – just like in the Duncan Targaryan story told implicitly in Jenny’s Song from Ep. 2. And then Jon will die tragically trying to save the realm….
@76 I always assumed she took some faces from the House of Black and White when she left Braavos. She had a satchel full of them, after all, which Sansa found.
It’s true that Missandei was with Dany at the Dragonpit meeting. As for Grey Worm being angry after her death…I actually think Dany is going to lose him and the Unsullied, just like she’s losing everyone else. I think maybe she will order Grey Worm/the Unsullied, to do something terrible (like slaughter everyone in the KL, or maybe order Grey Worm to kill Varys or Tyrion or something) and he/they will choose not to, bringing it back around to the moment she freed them, and told them it was their choice to follow her. I don’t think GW will turn on her because of Missandei’s death, but it could factor into his decision. He and Missandei had already talked about how they don’t care about Westeros; they’re only here for Dany. If she really does start to change into a Mad Queen, then GW might change his mind about following her as well. That’s my prediction anyway.
Lastly, did anyone else notice that Pod picked up the girl the Hound rejected, as well as the girl he had already been smiling at? I thought that was hilarious. Pod going for a threesome!
My immediate thoughts after the screen went black this week:
Losing Rhegal sucks. But those ballistas only shoot forwards right? Can Dany not make a pass behind the ships in that narrow ass channel and roast the fleet?
We have a red queen and a white queen, both mad as hatters. Between them, King’s Landing will burn.
Cersei is definitely dead woman walking. She killed the best friend of the daughter of ‘burn them all’ Arys II Targaren. She’s on the hit list of a little woman with a needle, AKA The Nightslayer. And her little brother has prophecy on his side. She’s showed massive resiliency up to this point but this was mostly against opponents who underestimated her. The hitters after her will not make the same mistake.
The Clegane Bowl is imminent.
Broke my heart when Missendei was killed. I sympathized with the madness in Dany’s eyes as she walked off.
There were those Dragon-killing ballistas on the walls right? And archers on the high ground right? Cersei could have easily ended the rival Queen at those front gates. She knows Dany will never give up or become a reliable ally. Why in seven hells would she let them walk away from that meeting?
For a minute I actually thought Arya would say yes. She deserves some happiness. Alas, she has a list.
Oh crap, they’re setting it up for Jon to win the game. And he’d be terrible at it as well as a terrible choice. Unfortunately there are no good options now.
@74 – From what I could see, the scorpions could cover a 180 arc from port to forward to starboard, if not a bit more, but they could not cover direct aft. At the very least it would be difficult as the ship’s rigging and sails would at the very least block line of sight.
The weapons are large four armed crossbows mounted on a turret. Does Qyburn call them Bowfours?
Dany should do a night sneak attack on Euron’s ships and on the KL’s walls to take out the ballistas without the potential for accurate shooting at her. This would also help limit collateral damage to civilians. Do like the White Walkers….
Unsullied should go into drain tunnels under KL and open doors from the inside (like in Meereen).
If Ghost wants to find female to make next generation of direwolves he should look for her beyond the wall unless Nymeria really likes incest.
A quick reminder regarding episode leaks. Let’s keep leaked plot details regarding episodes 5 and 6 out of this thread, even though they’re starting to hit mainstream news outlets*. Thank you!
*The official HBO preview for episode 5 is fair game, of course.
I liked the emotion of the episode but like others have complained, the tactics just floored me. I thought for sure Drogan should have been hit when Dany tried to play chicken with Euron.
Cersi would have killed Dany and every one of her advisors in the scene at the castle gates. And that whole pregnancy discussion had to make Euron blink. And he is a serial traitor. I bet he runs.
How Jon left Ghost was appalling as was the way all the men fawned over Jon and ignored Dany.
Jon is a wonderful nice guy who has no tactical sense at all. Sansa is channeling LittleFinger but she was totally right about the army needing time to recuperate.
I think Arya sees the Hound as a father figure. If he is killed by the Mountain she will take revenge.
If they make Jon king he’d better keep Tryion and Varys around. Unless they kill Dany as that would be horrible.
@@@@@ 69: “I was waiting for Dany to let on that she’s torn between what has become her goal since Viserys’s death and what she knows is right — that Jon should have the throne. That it’s not her throne to sit on, even if it’s something that she really wants at this point and has worked so hard to get. Because it’s never been about Dany, it’s been about her family. And Jon is family, if she believes him, even if he wasn’t raised a Targaryen. But there’s none of that.”
I keep waiting for that too. Dany’s smart, but she doesn’t know these people. Yes, she just saved their asses, but she has to win their hearts too. Why can’t she and Jon marry and rule together? (Not that I think that would ever end that way in GoT.)
A king and a queen. It would soothe the tension between them, and with the North. She could at least SAY that. It’s not uncommon among the Targs.
And I don’t think Cersei was EVER pregnant. She said that to manipulate Jaime initially. Then she thought she’d use the same ploy with Euron…oops….Tyrion blows her cover.
I’ve always hoped that Jaime would kill Cersei, the Valanquor prophecy after all, but if Euron finds Jaime, he’s toast. Maybe Arya will take her out after all. I do hope Jaime tries to kill Cersei….that would be redemption in my book. She has manipulated him from day one.
I agree it is all too rushed. Why did they do such a short season? Money? After all this?
Aside from the earlier point I brught up, there’s another thing that bother me incredibly. After all they did in the north, defeating the army of the dead and the NK, there’s hardly any mention of them afterwards. It’s as if they never existed aside from halving the northern forces… Wasn’t this supposed to be “the greatest threat to the whole word”? Even the people down south knew about it by now… And yet, no one even mentions it. It would have made SO MUCH sense if Danerys had brought up the fact that “she” saved everyone south as part of her propaganda attack on Cercei. She’s adviced to use mercy as a tool to manipulate the people of Kings Landing into turning aginst Cercei, but she wouldn’t use the friggin’ dead? And, yes, I know no one in the south has seen them, but the fact that Cercei had promissed (and then withdrawn) her forces to aid the north, the fact that the norther armies are halved (a fact I have no doubt Cercei would make as public as possible) and the fact that Danerys could just spread the news to everyone between the north and Kings Landing (especially since it looks like there’s no one guarding even the gates of the stupid city), should be pretty enough to have an idea about how much southerners “know” about what happened in the north.
This show makes less and less sense every eppisode.
Also, why didn’t Tyrion and Jamie tel anyone about friggin’ Bronn? The guy is a fighter, not a faceless assasin. What’s the guy going to do if you put the Lannister bros under special guard? Where is he even going to hide among the northerners who clearly are suspicious of foreigners?
Guys,
1) Dany will die and Jon will rule.
2) Jon will die and Dany will rule.
3) Neither Jon nor Dany will rule. The ruler of legend will instead by Dany’s and Jon’s son…..
@76: He did not recognize her, so I suspect it was a face Arya brought with her, not an innocent victim.
At this point I can see Jon killing “mad queen” Dany to save the realm and then leaving for the North to join in with his buddies Tormund and Ghost. And last survivor Tyrion left holding the reigns of the kingdom.
Truthfully speaking, I suspect this whole storyline is going to be in the books since there is Aegon (not Jon though) who is conquering Westeros now and looks to be pretty charming, supported by Varys who is far more sneaky than on TV (and he has both Golden company AND elephants!!!). Then Dany comes in with her dragons, whom Tyrion, not as nice as on TV, convinces that Aegon is fake. FAegon and Dany clash, Dany kills him. (Cersei is a nonentity by then).
@81,
How is that night attack gonna work? If the guys with the ballistas can’t see her to shoot, how does she to know where to put the fire?
@90. Masha: Maybe GRR Martin is taking encouragement from all this. He’s always said the show is its own thing. But now he’s sitting down and saying, “Let me show you how it’s done.”
@70, The point is that people who grow stronger after trauma, do so despite the trauma, not because of it.
@74 GRRM has already established that this planet has a stupid long seasonal cycles
Except he hasn’t. This climate is solely limited to Westeros. It’s completely connected to the Walkers. Now, being in the North, they are going to have less balmy weather than the South, but no one on Westeros anymore will suffer years long winters.
Well, episode 3 put the bar really low, and episode 4 couldn’t even passed that… Who needs logic and consistency when you can have themes and cool looking scenes…
The only reason I will watch the last two episodes is to see, if they can go even lower. I bet they can.
Once again, please don’t post or discuss leaked plot details for the upcoming final two episodes here. Even though they’re popping up in other outlets, we want to keep this a spoiler-free environment. Thanks!
One nitpick I have: In Varys’s “cocks matter” speech, he gets the rules of inheritance wrong. Jon is the child of Dany’s _older_ sibling. Even if females were in the official line to the throne, the child of the heir comes before the siblings of the heir (e.g., Joffrey before Stannis, assuming Joffrey were actually Robert’s, of course). The only way Dany would have had a better claim than Jon under the corresponding “cocks don’t matter” theory is if she had been Rhaegar’s _older_ sister.
@70 – you’ve basically described my own conflicted feelings here regarding both Sansa and Dany. I empathize with Dany’s frustration (especially at being brushed aside in favor of Jon when it comes to dragon flying and all that) but also feel like her sense of entitlement – especially towards those of Westeros, whom she just expects to bend the knee because FIRE AND BLOOD – a problem.
I think Sansa is right to side-eye it, as well as be wary about what that means for the North, but I don’t love how she’s going about it either. Not that I blame her given what she’s been through, but she hasn’t even really tried to come to some kind of mutually advantageous arrangement.
To be fair, I enjoy each episode as I’m watching it. However, with all the issues that have plagued these last two seasons, would it be right to say that: a whole lot of blame for the unsatisfying way the show is ending falls to GRRM?
Benihoff and Weiss aren’t creators, they’re adapters. Since the show overtook the books, they have a very general outline of plot and conclusion from GRRM, but that’s probably it. And their skill set isn’t in filling out the gaps.
If GRRM had done what he was supposed to, and finished the series in time, the show has a much stronger base to build off on. Instead, we get a much less satisfying ending to the show than we potentially could have had, and a non-ending to the books.
One way the blame is squarely on Benihoff and Weiss is how they’ve treated the direwolves. Absolutely brutal what they did to Ghost.
I love the direwolves in the books. They’re a huge part of why I like the story so much. But no TV or film adaptation could ever capture what makes them special in the books: the internal relationship between Stark and wolf. Add to that the (apparent) cost of cgi for the wolves, and they had to be cut. I’ve come to terms with that and just accept that the show has to play out in their absence.
There’s a line from Fire and Blood where a female lord who has chosen to support the female claimant in the Dance of the Dragons says something like, “In this world of men, we women must stand together.” If anyone should understand that sentiment, it’s Sansa. Littlefinger more or less sold her to Ramsay, and that’s considered totally legit in Westeros. Her lack of solidarity with a woman who is, like Arya and Brienne, claiming a role usually reserved for men in their world, was almost as disappointing as her betrayal of Jon’s trust. (While I’d rather see Dany than Jon on the throne, I do like Jon, and Sansa didn’t do right by him here. I’m also a little worried about him sending Ghost away–that seems like ominous foreshadowing to me.)
I think Sansa let slip Jon’s heritage because Tyrion said “He told me he was never a Stark”. I think she thought Jon had already told him not realizing that this actually happened at the very beginning when we first visited Winterfell and meant something totally different.
@101 and 102
Sansa knew exactly what she was doing when she told Tyrion the big news. I remember thinking that as soon as Jon told his sisters (cousins?) that everything Dany told him would happen was gonna take place. If he really didn’t want the crown he should have kept his mouth shut. But he let spill and thus will probably get the crown handed to him despite his wishes. Just think how much happier Dany would be back in Essos with people who actually love her. Westeros will always give her the side eye even if she can manage to win without melting Kings Landing into a puddle.
I thought the northern part of the episode was good but the a$$pulls to keep Cersei a threat are just exhausting at this point.
As an aside if Sansa had gone with the Hound she probably would have been present at the Red Wedding. Which would probably mean seeing her mother and brother killed and being a prisoner of the Freys. So no she wouldn’t still be a little bird.
This talk of using scouts to check where the boats were going… it’s just a shame they didn’t know a magical multi-eyed wheelie dude who could give them a risk free view of all their enemy’s plans and movements.
Rushed.
This whole season just feels RUSHED.
They’ve had seven previous seasons tracking, adapting and then overtaking the books. Now that they’re out on their own, with just whatever sketched outline and endpoint GRRM has given them, it all feels like they’ve just left themselves too little time to wrap it all up but still capture the character beats and emotional pay-offs to which all this has been building over the last eight years.
None of it needs to be huge; a scene here or there, a crucial extra beat at the end of an existing scene. Six episodes seems a ridiculously tight frame into which they want to cram all this. I’m sure there’s studio politics and economics in there, but GoT is such a HUGE property right now that it makes little sense that they couldn’t have allowed eight episodes this season. Oh well.
The plot devices within the episodes are becoming frustrating too. I get the idea that they were going for a classic GoT “WTF…?!!” moment with the approach to Dragonstone and the appearance of Euron’s fleet — splash one dragon when we’re least expecting it — but the set-up is bad when everyone is wondering why Dany can’t over-fly and turn in behind them. Those ships were packed in close formation in a narrow straight without much room to turn; whatever the arc of fire on those ballistae / scorpions, they can’t shoot through their own masts, sails and rigging. Clearly, they wanted to level the odds for the last two episodes and taking out yet another dragon (after the losses in the North) was obviously a big way to do this. It may even have been necessary for the way they want to progress with the story — but if plenty of us can see the flaws in the set-up then so could they. By all means, they should take us where they want to go, and I’m happy to allow them a lot of licence in that, but how they get us there should at least make sense. Right now, that’s doubtful — and it just feels jarring.
I’m just not quite getting the emotional pay-off that these characters and stories deserve.
I know there will likely be twists, turns before this is done. There will be both anticipated and unexpected character deaths — and some of them will be characters we don’t want to die. I accept that and await whatever they give us. What I REALLY don’t want is some sort of uninspiring anticlimax where we all come away thinking, “Oh. Was that it? Was that all they could manage?”
@91 – The ships were packed in pretty tightly behind a rock when they executed the sneak attack. Even if they spread out, people on ships make noise and Dany could hear them. Once she opened fire and got some ships burning, she’d be able to see more. By the time the shooters got into defensive positions, she’d be gone. Force the ship folk to stay up all night waiting for the next sneak attack to come and mess with their morale.
The walls of KL would be even easier, as torches could be seen to give her a guide for the first attack.
While a counter-attack on Euron’s ships from behind, or better yet above, seems obvious to us, Dany has never shown much tactical instinct. She’s personally very brave, but she tends to charge headlong into things, and of course here she was blinded by rage too (not a great quality in a commander, though understandable). She did, after all, learn most of what she knows about fighting from the Dothraki.
How does Euron keep turning up at exactly the right place at exactly the right time every time there is an enemy fleet anywhere on any ocean, he must have warp drive and satellite surveillance to get around to all the ambushes he has carried out and still get home for nookie and tea with Cersei before dark and yes Dany should have just circled round the fleet and flamed them to the waterline.
The thing I’ve learned the last few episodes, and even last few seasons is that the fans have much better imaginations than the show runners. And that if you want to know what is going to happen, just think of the simplest, straightest path to the end, and that’s what will happen.
For example, the White Walkers were a gigantic threat to the living. There were MYRIAD theories about how the Night King would play out his hand, even so far as storming King’s Landing by himself with his dragon while the rest of his army took care of the armies in the North. There were some really far fetched theories about Bran being the NK, about how there are hundreds of dragon eggs under Winterfell, about how Jon told Arya to Go, Go, GOOOO, about … fill in the blanks, nearly every character has a weird theory out there about them.
But you know what happened to the NK? He left his flank unprotected and was subsequently outflanked by a group of Starks who had no way of knowing that what they were doing was going to work. It’s the simplest, most straightforward end to the NK there could have been. It doesn’t really matter that it was Arya who killed him, it could have been almost anyone with a Valyrian steel blade. It was fan fave Arya who got the nod, of course, but the story is fairly simple. He gets killed by someone he overlooks as a threat, and fairly easily at that.
In episode 4, what is the easiest path for Dany to lose a dragon? Take them back to Dragonstone and don’t do any reconnaissance whatsoever and let Euron blast them from his new ships. Then fly your other living dragon straight at Euron and scream and then leave without even breathing a puff of smoke, because uhh, hmm, idk why. But it’s the simplest answer to the question of how to get rid of the 2nd dragon! Don’t use the dragon’s strength of being able to fly really high and see really far… Don’t use them in the battle of Winterfell except to give some passing blows to the dead army. Just fly around with Bran’s birds checking out the scenery. Okkk. Don’t get me started on the deaths of people who fought like crazy for a long time and died whimpering without a fight, (Missandei for example. The real Missandei would have grabbed Cersei and jumped off the wall and used her as a landing device.)
The show runners should just listen to the fans theories and try to make the show a little more compelling. But it costs money I guess. (I also think that’s the real reason GRRM hasn’t finished the books yet. The fan theories and ideas far outshine what he could possibly conceive. In his defense, it’s hard to build such a gigantic world and then make it play out satisfactorily for all the fans. But the M.O. of fans is to defend the creator even though they’re dead wrong and didn’t have a real coherent story planned out from the beginning. (Star Wars Episodes 1-3 anyone???) So just finish the thing already. The fans will call it brilliant even if it’s as bad as the TV show.)
It’s still pretty good TV, but I wish it let the fighters stake their claims a little better, and that it didn’t have such a strong touch of Deus ex Machina in it.
@109: While I think that’s a fair criticism of S6 and S7, I don’t think it required much for Euron to anticipate Dany’s arrival and set an ambush. He would have known where she was headed and he was already in the right area.
@111, Yeah, people forget that Dragonstone is very close to King’s Landing, which is called that because it’s where Aegon and his sisters landed when they flew to conquer Westeros from Dragonstone. The entire reason we had the Battle of the Blackwater, is because it was an easy thing to sail from Dragonstone to King’s Landing without having to face the Lannister army on land. It’s the easiest thing to have a spy in White Harbor to send a raven when Dany leaves with her fleet.
If we’re going to go on and on about logistics, why not make Cersei come to you? The North is impossible to invade, Jon and Dany, just set your army at the Neck, and wait for Cersei’s own impatience to get the best of her.
At this point, I don’t see this ending any other way than the Golden Company are going to be revealed to be Targaryen loyalists at the last second.
“I’m still of the mind that he’s going to try to kill Cersei, but why wouldn’t he tell Brienne that and assuage some heartbreak? Why do people hide such pertinent info? It’s so forced.”
Um, because characters should give away key plot points willy-nilly? Besides, what Jaime is really saying here is: “I’m as fracked up as my sister. I don’t deserve your love.” He has really put Brienne on a pedestal –as he should. We should keep in mind that Jaime has basically been faithful to Evil Cersei his entire life. Brienne is the only other woman he has ever developed feelings for, and probably even had sex with.
As for Dani the Mad Queen direction the show seems to be taking, I’m pretty sure it’s all misdirection, as the Sansa/Arya rift was in the previous season. Wait and see. The fact that Missandei’s (sniff) last word was “Dracarys” is a huge hint.
@@@@@ 106: YES. It IS rushed, and it’s suffering for it, unfortunately.
The reasons are probably budgetary –though why HBO should be stingy with the very last season of the most successful show in TV history defies common sense. I would have gone for broke, literally. But of course I’m not an executive and have no idea how those small minds work.
@@@@@ 3: What’s “broken” about Brienne? (Apart from her heart, and this moment was coming SEASONS ago.) How having a cry over a broken heart “breaks” a character? It IS the most vulnerable we have ever seen her, true, but that does not “break” her in any way.
Look at Dany, at Sansa, at Tyrion, whose hearts and whose lives have been broken over and over –yet here they are. Nothing “broken” about then –well, maybe Tyrion, to a point.
Jaime knows Cersei tried to kill him directly. Why would he come back to her? Clearly, he wants to update his moniker to Queenslayer (he killed Aerys under similar circumstances).
@7: Had Missandei jumped, Cersei could have claimed that she didn’t do anything, thus removing Daenerys’ clear casus belli. Letting herself be killed was the right move, as it makes her avenging simpler. I believe Tyrion’s plan was similar: he knows his sister hates him enough to actually shoot the messenger publicly; had she done so, Daenerys could have legitimately asked her dragon to light the place up.
@51: I think all the wildfire in Westeros was in King’s Landing, and Cersei burnt it all with all her enemies.
@63: For as far as the maesters can remember, years long winters have followed years long summers, that’s the normal meteorological pattern in this world. If winter gets cancelled, doesn’t it mean the North becomes the temperate region, the region north of the Wall becomes basically Winterfell, and Cersei is about to rule over a desert?
@64: Democracy rarely works the first time. If a powerful monarch wins the game, we’re back to the start (if it’s Jon, that just means Varys is actually ruling, and I never understood what he wanted to achieve). If the Seven Kingdoms become divided again, how many will be ruled by the new Ramsay Snow, Vargo Hoat or Sandor Clegane? There will never be a dearth of power-hungry psychopaths I’m afraid. And again, democracy can’t work without a good education system and credible news sources. I don’t know what can save this continent, but whatever happens can go wrong in many ways…
@116 For as far as the maesters can remember, years long winters have followed years long summers, that’s the normal meteorological pattern in this world.
Except that’s not what was actually happening. They were called “summers” because they weren’t “winters” but the books clearly explained that during “summer” the regular seasons went like normal. That’s why the North got “summer snows”. They were getting the weather that would be their normal weather, if not for the undue influence of the Walkers activity.
If winter gets cancelled, doesn’t it mean the North becomes the temperate region, the region north of the Wall becomes basically Winterfell, and Cersei is about to rule over a desert?
No, the North is the northerly less balmy more chill region, which is why they got “summer snows”, as I said. The years long “summer” was just a period of typical climate. That’s why even in “winter” Highgarden was still warm and sunny, and they were able to grow enough food to feed the realm, because the influence of the Walkers wasn’t able to extend so far once the Wall was built. They felt the change in King’s Landing, Riverrun, the Vale, but they are much closer to the North, while Highgarden and Dorne remained relatively immune from the Walker’s influence. Winter isn’t cancelled in the sense that it will never snow again. “Winter” as in, an atypical climate condition caused by supernatural forces, is cancelled, but the seasons we know still continue. That isn’t going to cause the typical climate zones to shift. It’s the Walkers that caused the unnatural change, now things will go on as they should.
Unless of course that STUPID theory I read that Jon becomes Azor Ahai when he stabs Dany through the heart, with a reforged Ice, to take the throne, Ice becomes Lightbringer, and Dany becomes the Night Queen as a result, is true. Then this all starts over.
“Jon and Dany, just set your army at the Neck, and wait for Cersei’s own impatience to get the best of her.”
Hey, it’s not as if a magical assassin killed all of House Frey, leaving the Twins open for a Stark ally to the north or south to seize the bottleneck.
I follow the show secondhand. Has anyone on it mentioned what happened to Frey since Arya did it?
The more I think about the lack of use of Bran, the more ridiculous it seems. I’m surprised there’s not been more comment on it. He is the ultimate weapon against a traditional enemy – they can have no secrets from you and you will always be able to out manoeuvre them.
If he can see anything that has already happened, then he can see any plans Cersei and co have, and what weapons and tactics they are going to employ.
Or you could forget all that, make some guesses and walk into stupid traps.
I’ve been saying for years that the only Game of Thrones spinoff I want to see is The Delightful Adventures of Arya and the Hound. It would be such a fun romp. A mismatched buddy adventure series in which they’d eat all the fucking chickens, and Hot Pie would make random, zany cameos. I’ll never get that series, but maybe I can still get one more magnificent scene in the next episode.
If you only trust the people you grew up with, you won’t make many allies.
I’ve rewatched that scene in the godswood, with the eponymous last Starks. I’m still upset we didn’t get their reaction to the big reveal, but I guess we can imagine what would’ve happened.
I didn’t like how Sansa betrayed Jon’s trust, but I do understand her motivations. Kinda. I’m still unsure why she hates Dany so much, even after all the dragon queen has sacrificed. Also, how will Jon react? That’s assuming he survives this scheming long enough to see Sansa again. If he dies as a result of her scheming, I wonder if Sansa will cry as much as she cried for Theon.
The funniest reaction I’ve seen to this episode is all the Jon Snow hate. Apparently, trusting his own family was a terrible mistake. And ghosting Ghost was the worst thing anyone has ever done in the history of this show. I guess a lot of fans own pets.
Cersei seems to always be a step ahead of the good ones. Good intelligence? What if Varys has been working for her all through the story – just being an awfully good actor with all that “for the people” talk? It would be hard to understand hit motifs but it would sure be a interesting twist.
@111 Sure Euron could anticipate them coming, as well as they anticipated his fleet waiting for them. That’s why they had dragon escort, remember. That Euron’s fleet could hide an ambush the dragons was just silly! The dragons should have spotted his fleet miles away. That’s why we have reccon aircrafts looking for fleets and not the other way around. But most films are full of such stupidities to bring the plot forward so I try not to get stuck too much on them. The story needed to sacrifice one more dragon to even out the odds and make Dany more lone and vulnerable.
@121: The plausible argument I’ve seen in favor of Sansa is that IF she correctly believes (a) that Dany will stop at nothing to gain the IT; and (b) that Dany would be willing to kill Jon in order to preclude his better claim, then Sansa would be trying to save Jon’s life by using Tyrion to orchestrate a coup against Dany. If this is indeed her motivation, then I start to wonder about Arya’s purpose in going south…..
I’m not convinced (a) is true, though it might be. As for (b), well maybe. If Dany were so minded, she knows the “secret” is now known to too many people for her to be safe. Maybe that would motivate her; I don’t know.
@110 Me, for one, is really glad that the fans don’t write the script. I’m not really enthusiastic over the plot as it is, but the fans just want the good to rewarded, the evil punished, all animals to survive, all injustices to be redeemed, the patriarchy to be crushed, democracy installed, realistic military strategy and tactics and an excessively complicated plot at that. :-P
As for their lack of use of Brans talents. I’m not sure that he can select where to go in history. It might be that he is just fed with fragments from all over the place (history).
@126: At the very least, Bran can warg easily into any animal, which is already invaluable for intelligence. Rita Skeeter made her entire career based on the fact people don’t notice animals, so if you can be ANY animal, you definitely have a great tactical advantage.
When Sam asked Bran to go and watch the secret wedding, he easily manages to do specifically that. So checking what they had for breakfast in the red keep last Thursday shouldn’t be a problem.
Even after they head south, Bran could still keep them up-to-date by warging a messager raven onto Jon’s shoulder without having to leave Winterfell.
Well I read the leaks.
I’m going to opt out of commenting for now
@69 Varys has been vocal in his concern about her mind since she burned the Tarlys, this is not out of left field.
@76I think she used a random face, Frey didn’t recognize her to the point he asked if she was one of “his” girls so he would know if he could hit on her. It was probably just one of the bodies she had prepared back in training.
@128 Yeah, you’re right. I forgot about that.
Generally I think the script team find the Three eyed raven a bit difficult to use in the plot so they just ignore him as much as they can.
@115,
Brienne is “broken” because they had her character act completely against her previous characterization.
When they had Arya answer Gendry’s proposal with “I’m not a lady, its not who I am” that was staying true to the character. Had Arya said “Yes! I’ll be your lady and wear dresses and knit things” that would have broken Arya’s character.
So what they basically did with Brienne was have her act out of character. The Brienne we’ve come to know is a tough, rational fighter who would have tried to reason with Jaime rather than end up crying in the snow like any other woman.
@133: You’re conflating Sir Brienne’s character with a false idea of masculinity (the whole toxic “real men don’t cry” baloney) and making her into some kind of robot. Arya bedding Gendry and then rejecting the idea of becoming Lady Something is very much in character. So is Brienne showing vulnerability after being knifed in the heart (so to speak) by the man she has loved for years now.
They are both women, and very different women at that, besides the fact that they like to dress in armor and are better fighters than most men.
Thank you @134. Ashgrove. Also, there are not many women in the show that end up crying in the snow, but many women that are harder than some men that are depicted in GoT. Danaerys, Sansa, Melissandre, Lyanna Mormont, Osha, Ygritte, Yara, Missandei, even Cersei… They sometimes she’d a tear or show fear just as the men do. But they own their own life (by now at least).They are not like any other woman. They are not like any other men.
I’m with most people here in the underuse of the 3ER. I assume there are limits to his vision, otherwise he would be Dany’s (or at least the Starks’) main weapon or a very useful resource at the very least. (He has been so far, obviously, limits or not.) But those limits have not been made clear, which is just bad writing.
@124: I can see that.
Sansa could fear for Jon’s life, and her revelation was a way to make sure more people would know the truth if Dany were to kill him. I’ve seen a lot of predictions that Jon will kill Dany, but I think the opposite is far more likely.
The other explanation I’ve seen is that Sansa is secretly in love with Jon. It would certainly explain much, but if that were the case I think there would be more clues.
re Jon’s ghosting of Ghost. I wonder how Full House or really, any 80’s sit com, would have handled it. :D
Since we’re back to the game of thrones now, I want to state for the (unspoiled) record that I still don’t trust Tyrion. I still think he hatched a plot with Cersei and that he may have been trying to play Sansa in the crypts. I’m now coming around to the view that there’s a counter-plot in the works by Sansa and Bran.
@@@@@ 120: YES! YES! YES! The Delightful Adventures of Arya and the Hound… FOREVER!!!!!
@@@@@ 125: I’m with you there. If fans were writing the show, Ned Stark wouldn’t have died, for starters. The whole thing would have been extremely boring and would have barely lasted a season.
@125 and @141
I’m not saying the fans should write the show, I’m just saying that, collectively, the fans have much better imaginations than the show runners. Esp since they ran out of source material. It is pretty ham fisted with twists that defy belief. The last twist that really made me go “Huh, didn’t see that coming,” was when Sansa put Littlefinger on trial. But the last episode where they let Euron kill a dragon because Dany didn’t even do a cursory flyover is laughable. I thought it was a dream sequence it was so fantastically unrealistic.
My point is, they are taking the very straight and narrow line to the finish and aren’t even trying to make it unpredictable. Even the “lame” fan predictions are better than what they are actually doing.
I just want to know if the ships had rear mounted ballista or scorpions? If not why didn’t she just burn them from the back?
@@@@@ 142: I see you point now, and I completely agree.
Except I don’t understand why people are assuming that Benioff and Weiss are coming up with all those twists themselves. I’m pretty sure they are following an outline given to them by George R. R. “I’m Not Your B” Martin, at least in the most general terms. What I do see here is rushed, clumsy writing and execution. They tried to squeeze an entire season of resolution in a few chapters –maybe because they blew their budget on the big battle scenes and their CGI, or maybe because HBO execs got stingy at the last minute. Maybe we’ll never know why.
I predict Sansa will be “Queen” of the North.
Jon & Dany will reign as co-rulers of a “more democratic” rest of Westeros.
Cersei finally killed by Arya/Hound/Jamie/Bronn. I have read every single comment here that were not banned. Superb insights!
For those who are wondering why the show is rushing to the ending, it has nothing to do with HBO or budgets. HBO would gladly pay for more episodes and seasons but D & D don’t want to do GoT anymore. They just want to get this over so they can go fuck up Star Wars now.
If it had been up to the Ds they would have ended the show at season 7, that’s what they wanted. HBO wanted more seasons though and so a compromise was made for two short seasons instead of just one more full season. If I remember right one full season and a movie was also considered.
When D & D started this show their whole goal was to get the Red Wedding, that was the story they were dying to tell. You can tell by how the show has gotten worse with each season since that the Ds have not been as motivated since the RW.
IMO what HBO should have done is to let the Ds go and let someone else take over the show but I’m not sure if they didn’t want to do it with out D & D or if the Ds didn’t want anyone else to finish what they started.
@146: It makes perfect sense, sadly enough.
The Naval battle of Dragonstone was absolute BS, when you claim you can shot down something Flying 100s of feet in the Air with nothing but a Oversized Cross Bow Bolt and sink Ships at several Hundred Yards with the same Bolts you are treating your viewers as idiots.They have made those Bolts 100 times more powerful than a 18th Century Cannon Ball.
When you have your characters fail to learn by there mistakes in having Daenerys being fooled by Euron for a 3rd time you are treating them as Morons.
I don’t mind seeing Magic or Dragons being used but if you are going to use Medieval Technology then it should be kept realistic.
1. If I were Missandei and the evil queen was standing next to me asking me what is my last words, and she is only one hand away – I would have dragged her hair and jumped off the wall with her below me, breaking my fall. Come on! Missandei is supposed to be running a war with thousands of warriors all day and she didn’t learn some self-defensive basic countermoves?! How is that possible?
There is absolutely no character development and substance for Missandei. Her ending seems contrived and pointless.
2. Where are the scouts of this so called Dany’s army. How is it possible someone missed a huge fleet with arrow launchers especially if she has dragons that can fly and see for miles? And also not see 50 giants ships in the enemies army? Once again this war seemed like it was not developed and researched. The scenario just seems not plausible. A very stupid way to get rid of one dragon; they could have killed off the second dragon in the last battle and would’ve made more sense.
3. It seems strange to me that so called politicians such as Varys and Tyrion are so blatantly honest and put everything on the table. Its seems to me this type of politician would’ve been killed off in a real court/government much earlier through their excessive honesty. In a real court Tyrion would’ve killed off Varys who is not loyal to his queen immediately that evening. And if he didn’t then Tyrion is not fulfilling his role as smart and ruthless when needed. That is his role as Dany selects him for as hand; otherwise he is useless. Why would a smart advisor keep around another person who can turn to any other side at any point. His role of being nice guy undermines his intended role and the characters do not seem real. Everyone is nice but no intellect. The whole conversation there is no strategy or consideration of the structure of castle and outlining territories. There is no real discussion HOW to capture the opposition, it’s just complaining.
There is also no scene showing Dany discussing how to win the final war or discuss what is the enemies location, terrain, arm evaluations, nothing. Just oh we will win the final war. There is no tactics. They should have pulled in some military consultants to understand entrance strategy, exist strategies, options for infiltration with the budget they put into this show.
With no plan, of course the dragon will get shot down.
4. In the scene of Bron showing up and taking Tyrion’s word that he will get some bigger estate of Highgarden is laughable. All these characters sounds like children taking each other words and after the war Dany owns the Highgarden but Tyrion has no right to give it away himself. If Bron is such an amazing assassin and can pop into any place why he doesn’t go to Dany’s room to capture or kill her and get the Highgarden or anything more directly faster? (Seems like your ex roommate popping in to claim the tv.)
5. Why did they not cast a real malamute or furry white dog? Otherwise what was the point of showing the dog if he can’t even say goodbye properly? Seems like the CG wolf doesn’t really add much to it. I don’t understand this limitation you see CG objects can be touched by actors in a lot of films. They should have outsourced to Asia to get this done within budget and properly scripted.
6. Overall I think the show is trying too hard to be “nice” and not enough character development that reflects the time and experience each character has gone through. There is equal time allocated to each character and making them into likable characters vs characters with depth and development. Characters should change over time and the circumstance and their standing will impact and change them. They are still trying to keep Dany “nice” but she can not be nice in the general sense, she is the leader of a huge army and many things have happened and she controls fire spitting dragons, trying to paint her as a passive person who goes to her boyfriend and complains why your sister doesn’t like me is not really her role. She shouldn’t need to care in her position. In reality in her role, she is more likely to send an assassin to knock Sansa off the moment Sansa is not needed.
She doesn’t really need to be “nice” to be protagonist. It doesn’t match the character that she is rising from nobody, abandoned to horse people and becoming their queen, becoming mother of dragons, freeing slaves, having huge Unsullied army.
She can be intelligent and resourceful and she also does not need to brag to Tyrion that she is also smart. It is like she is explaining to an audience she is smart; she doesn’t need to. The audience should realize this. Much of the show is like those detective stores where at the end of the show the detective tells the audience who did it because the audience is ignorant but it is not necessary to spell out everything like to a child.
7. If the gate is open you can have a trojan horse! There is more than one way to kill and capture the queen without killing the innocent villagers. You send a team in and capture Cersei directly. I don’t understand the people who wrote this show there seems to be always only one way to solve a problem. There are all these so called “smart” advisors and they come up with nothing and attempt nothing except to complain and try to find the next best leader. There are no redirects, no stealth attacks, no tactics, no military research.
8. The only character that seems the most plausible is Cersei. Her development and change seems the most consistent. Her behavior is also the most intelligent. Her agreement to fight and not show up is consistent with her character. She is not a likable character but there is depth to her role.
Overall I like the show but it is very childish if you look at most of the scenes. It doesn’t follow a logical order and seems contrived in general. I think the writers who write about war and strategy should read about war and strategy such as Art of War and watch some other reference historical movies who has done through historical battles and strategies relating to the context of the terrain, specific generals and political events to gain better and more believable insight. The writers seem to have not read any war strategies or research any historical events and strategists.
Some additional observations.
1. There should be some limitations the trajectory and speed of the catapult of arrows vs the size of the dragon and its flight and speed. It seems the dragon could’ve easily dodged the arrow and flew straight up and can fly at a 90 degree trajectory to the boats and lit them all on fire. The boats wont be able to shoot straight up.
2. It would seem the actual father of Cersei child should not affect the character of Euron. He is not in love with Cersei and isn’t the type to trust people. It would seem odd he will care if the child is his and trust her word. He wants the throne for himself not for his future son. They are mutually using each other until the bigger enemy is taken care of so they can each fight for the throne. Even if her kid was his he would not be the type to kill his son or kill her to take over her throne. The scene with her pacifying him with a future child seems consistent on her end but doesn’t seem like something he will genuinely care about.
3. There was no reason for Jon to tell his sisters especially after he promise Dany he won’t tell. Take care of the common enemy first, then figure out what to do about it. He is suppose to be smart but clearly he is all mush with no intellect. There is no consideration what will happen when he does tell his sisters. It’s obvious his sisters have their own objectives and positions and asking they will not tell anyone seems like a joke. There is too much blind trust it makes his character dumb and lack of substance. All the characters seem stuck in teenage intellectual level. The writers are treating this like a high school drama.