Good morning, and welcome back once again to Reading The Wheel of Time. I’m hoping this Tuesday morning is finding you all feeling a little bit calmer and more secure than you were last Tuesday. Given the week we’ve had, I also hope you can all forgive me for this week’s submission to the read: We’ll be covering just one chapter instead of the promised two. Chapter 15 is a fascinating one, however, so we should have a lot of good things to explore.
Chapter 15 opens with Nynaeve attempting to Dream herself into Siuan’s study. She pictures it in her mind the way she remembers it, but she doesn’t appear in the White Tower. Confused, she tries a room she has visited more often—Sheriam’s study—and appears there easily. Realizing she might be recognized by someone who accidentally dreamed themselves into Tel’aran’rhiod or by any Black Sister who might be spying with one of the other stolen ter’angreal, Nynaeve changes her appearance to look like Melaine, but in an Accepted dress. She heads out into the hallway, occasionally encountering a few frightened-looking novices, apparently dreaming about being sent to Sheriam’s study and vanishing as quickly as they appear. Nynaeve ignores them, but then someone else appears before her. It is Elaida, looking sweaty in a red dress and a version of the Amyrlin’s stole without a blue stripe.
Those stern dark eyes focused on Nynaeve. “I am the Amyrlin Seat, girl! Do you not know how to show respect? I will have yo—” In midword, she was gone.
Nynaeve exhaled raggedly. Elaida as Amyrlin; that was a nightmare for certain. Probably her fondest dream, she thought wryly. It will snow in Tear before she ever rises that high.
She continues to the Amyrlin’s study, and when she sees the room she realizes why she couldn’t get to it. Instead of the sparse, practical furnishing Nynaeve remembers, there is a throne-like chair with a heavily carved table and stools arranged around it, a vase full of red roses arranged on a pedestal like a monument, a strange triptych that she doesn’t recognize, and the portrait of Rand fighting Ba’alzamon over Falme.
Just then the door opens and a red-haired Accepted comes into the room. She doesn’t wink away again, and Nynaeve is about to leap back to Sheriam’s study when the woman addresses her by name and tells her that if Melaine knew Nynaeve was using her face, she would do more than dress her like a child. Then she changes to reveal Egwene in her Aiel garb.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
“You nearly frightened ten years out of me,” Nynaeve muttered. “So the Wise Ones have finally decided to let you come and go as you please? Or is Melaine behind—”
“You should be frightened,” Egwene snapped, color rising in her cheeks. “You are a fool, Nynaeve. A child playing in the barn with a candle.”
Nynaeve is shocked and outraged and starts to counter that she won’t take that kind of talk from Melaine or Egwene, but the other woman continues to berate her, telling Nynaeve that she is playing with fire even after the Wise Ones explained how very dangerous Tel’aran’rhiod is. When Nynaeve continues to argue, Egwene ups the ante, telling her that there are nightmares in the World of Dreams that could trap her until she died, then creating two huge ragged corpse men that catch Nynaeve up, tearing her dress and trying to bite, or possibly kiss, her. Nynaeve can’t touch saidar—she’s horrified, not angry—and finds herself pleading to Egwene. Then the creatures vanish, and Nynaeve can only shudder and weep for a moment before repairing the damage to her dress. She can’t fix the scratches to her chest and neck, though.
Egwene tells Nynaeve that she was able to unmake the things easily because she made them, but that she still has trouble with the nightmares she stumbles across in the Dream. Nynaeve insists that she could have Dreamed herself away, but Egwene points out that she was too terrified to think of it. Nynaeve glares, but it doesn’t spark the usual argument so she changes the subject. They discuss the alterations that have been made to the room, and Nynaeve points out that the woman who decorated it does not see the world in the same way as the woman who chose what was in it before. She also points out the paintings on the wall: Egwene recognizes that the triptych is probably of Bonwhin, but Nynaeve’s focus is on the one of Rand and how it indicates to her that the person who hung it wants to be reminded of how dangerous Rand is. She points out that Siuan turning against Rand could be even worse for them than her wanting Elayne back in the Tower.
Egwene is hesitant to commit an opinion, however, and suggests that the papers in the desk might tell them something. She instructs Nynaeve to search in the Amyrlin’s room and goes to check Leane’s desk. Nynaeve is indignant all over again at being told what to do, and thinks she ought to march out there and give Egwene a piece of her mind, but finds herself doing as she’s told all the same.
She searches two boxes before finding papers in a third, though some disappear from her hands before she can finish reading them. There is a request from Joline to serve a set of penances that make Nynaeve wince and that is signed “approved,” a note that the Marshal General of Saldaea and his army can’t be found, and that Queen Tenobia is refusing to cooperate, another note that the eyes-and-ears networks in Tanchico have been silent for three weeks, and information that Pedron Niall is claiming credit for some trouble between Illian and Murandy. It’s nothing she can use, or even finish reading before it vanishes, though Nynaeve is just starting on something mentioning a “suspected gathering of Blue sisters” when she hears Egwene cry out in the other room.
Nynaeve dashes out, wielding a spiked club, but she finds Egwene alone and safe, although with a horrified look on her face. She tells Nynaeve that she saw a document with Elaida’s name attached to the title of Amyrlin Seat.
Nynaeve isn’t sure that can be right—she knows Amyrlins aren’t deposed for anything but the most serious of offenses.
“Maybe Rand was serious enough.” Egwene’s voice was steady, though her eyes were still too wide. “Maybe she became ill with something the Yellows couldn’t Heal, or fell down the stairs and broke her neck. What matters is that Elaida is Amyrlin. I don’t think she will support Rand as Siuan did.”
Nynaeve can’t imagine Siuan dead; she’d hated her and been a little afraid of her, but she had respected her too. And Moiraine had been so sure that Siuan would put the Tower behind Rand. She can’t think what Elaida might do, but Egwene was able to read the rest of the document, which gave orders for “loyal sisters” who sighted Moiraine to detain her by any means necessary and return her to the Tower “for trial on charge of treason.” The same sort of language was also used about Elayne. Nynaeve notes that the wording of “loyal sisters” fits with Mistresses Macura’s message, and that this means that the Tower must have split over whatever happened with Elaida becoming Amyrlin.
Egwene praises the realization, pleasing Nynaeve in turn, who tells her of the report about the gathering of the Blues. She imagines that the Blues didn’t support Elaida, but when they go back into the study they can’t find the paper again. Egwene urges Nynaeve to try to remember what she read and Nynaeve insists that she is trying.
What she was doing hit Nynaeve like a sudden hammer between the eyes. Excusing herself. To Egwene, a girl whose bottom she had switched for throwing a tantrum not more than two years ago. And a moment earlier she had been proud as a hen with a new egg because Egwene was pleased with her. She remembered quite clearly the day when the balance between them had shifted, when they ceased being the Wisdom and the girl who fetched when the Wisdom said fetch, becoming instead just two women far from home. It seemed that balance had shifted further, and she did not like it. She was going to have to do something to move it back where it belonged.
Nynaeve decides that it must be the lie that she told Egwene that has thrown their relationship out of whack, that she is floundering because she has lost her moral authority. She confesses at once that she hadn’t tasted the forkroot in the tea at all, and that Thom and Juilin had had to rescue them. She tells Egwene that she’ll box her ears if she reports as much to the Wise Ones, expecting to start a fight, but Egwene only gives her an amused, condescending smile, and tells Nynaeve that she already expected as much. She has never heard Nynaeve mention forkroot before, and knows that Nynaeve always tries to put the best face on her mistakes. She tries to continue the conversation, but Nynaeve stubbornly insists that she doesn’t behave that way at all until Egwene, staring at her, decides that Nynaeve is not going to let it go. So she conjures a cup of something in her hands, reminding Nynaeve about the one time Egwene lied to her, and the awful taste of what Nynaeve made her drink as a discouragement.
Nynaeve backpedals, insisting that she didn’t really lie, and making excuses, but Egwene keeps coming until at last Nynaeve gives in, admitting that she sometimes tries “[…] to make things look better for myself than they were. Sometimes. But never anything important. I’ve never—lied—about anything important. Never, I swear. Only small things.” Egwene lets the cup vanish and Nynaeve sighs in relief, even as she’s berating herself for giving in to Egwene’s threats
Egwene goes back to talking about Elaida and how they have to decide who to tell. Moiraine obviously, and Rand too, but she doesn’t think that the Aiel should know yet. She warns Nynaeve not to blurt it out to the Wise Ones, or even to mention this meeting at the Tower at all. Nynaeve replies that she isn’t a fool, which Egwene readily agrees with—as long as Nynaeve doesn’t let her temper get the best of her. She warns Nynaeve that she needs to keep her temper and keep her wits about her if she’s indeed right about the Forsaken and Moghedien, and urges her to keep trying to remember anything she can about that gathering of Blue sisters. Then she disappears, leaving Nynaeve to wonder why confessing everything had fixed nothing and only made her look like a fool, before waking herself up.
Egwene opens her eyes in her tent in the Waste, and is relieved when she sees that there are no Wise Ones watching her. She isn’t afraid of their punishments, but she is afraid that they will refuse to keep teaching her if they learn that she has been traveling Tel’aran’rhiod without them. But even though she worries about that, she can’t stop; she wants to know everything right now.
She channels to create Fire in the empty firepit and waits for the room to warm up a little, thinking about what happened with Nynaeve. She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would find out she was there without the Wise Ones’ permission and possibly tell on her that the only thing she could think of to do was to focus on what Nynaeve was doing wrong instead. She’d kept them both focused on that, kept herself calm, and somehow she’d gained the upper hand.
Come to think of it, Moiraine seldom raised her voice, and when she did she was least effective in having what she wanted done. It had been so even before she began behaving so strangely with Rand. The Wise Ones never yelled at anyone, either—except each other, sometimes—and for all their grumping about the chiefs no longer listening, they still seemed to get their way much more often than not. There was an old saying that she had never really understood before: “He strains to hear a whisper who refuses to hear a shout.” She would not shout at Rand again. A quiet, firm, womanly voice, that was the thing. For that matter, she ought not to shout at Nynaeve, either; she was a woman, not a girl throwing tantrums.
When the tent is warm enough she dresses quickly, puts out the Fire, and heads out into the freezing night air. She approaches Rand’s tent, addressing the first Maiden who reveals herself in the night to ask if he is awake. Enaila says that he is, and that he does not sleep enough, sounding to Egwene like a worried mother. Then Aviendha detaches herself from the shadows by Rand’s tent, complaining that she has heard of infants keeping women awake all night, but that “a grown man should know that others would like to have their blankets.”
She and Enaila share a chuckle as Egwene peers into the tent to see that Rand is with Natael, and is sprawled out reading some book.
Abruptly he flipped back through the pages, read, then laughed. She tried to tell herself there was nothing of madness in that laugh, only bitterness. “A fine joke,” he told Natael, snapping the book shut and tossing it to him. “Read page two hundred eighty-seven and page four hundred, and tell me if you don’t agree.”
Egwene can’t speak to him while he’s with the gleeman, and she thinks for a moment that it’s a shame that Rand has to rely on a man he barely knows for company, before reminding herself that Rand has Aviendha, and often the chiefs and Lan, and sometimes Mat too. Aviendha says that Rand won’t talk to Natael in front of her, Enaila teases Aviendha about sons in a jest that Egwene doesn’t understand and Aviendha doesn’t seem to appreciate.
She continues on to Moiraine’s tent, startled when Lan, sleeping near the entrance, opens his eyes briefly to look at her and then closes them again. She kneels and peers inside the tent, catching Moiraine with her blue stone, surrounded by the glow of saidar. She gives Egwene permission to come in.
As she settles, Egwene asks if Moiraine was spying on Rand, and observes that Moiraine said that she wouldn’t do it again.
“I said that since the Wise Ones could watch his dreams, we should allow him some privacy. They have not asked again since he shut them out, and I have not offered. Remember that they have their own goals, which may not be those of the Tower.”
As quickly as that, they had come to it. Egwene was still not sure how to tell what she knew without betraying herself to the Wise Ones, but perhaps the only method was to just tell it and then feel her way. “Elaida is Amyrlin, Moiraine. I do not know what has happened to Siuan.”
Moiraine asks her how she knows, if she learned something in her dreamwalking or if it was her talent as a Dreamer. The question gives Egwene an out—she still has significant dreams though she doesn’t yet know how to interpret them. She tells Moiraine that she saw an arrest warrant for her, signed by Elaida as Amyrlin, and that it was no ordinary dream. It’s the truth, but not the whole truth, and she’s glad that Nynaeve is not there.
Moiraine remarks that perhaps it won’t matter now if Rand takes the Aiel across the Dragonwall, since Elaida certainly won’t be approaching the nations on his behalf. Egwene is a bit appalled at how little care she seems to show for Siuan, but Moiraine points out that she has no time for tears, and that she and Siuan have been on this path for almost twenty-one years. They knew the risks, and the price they would have to pay.
Egwene is still anxious about Elaida opposing Rand, though she takes some solace from the fact that the Blues and at least some Yellows apparently opposed Elaida. But Moiraine is not happy to see the Tower divided, and speaks of how the Tower “has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years,” that it has guided rulers and stopped or prevented wars, and that the only reason humankind even remembers that the Last Battle will come is because of the Tower. She could almost wish that no one had opposed Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan.
Egwene endeavors to match Moiraine’s calm, asking what happens to Rand now, and Moiraine reminds her it only takes thirteen sisters, no matter how weak, to capture him, and fewer to hold him one captured. She intends to keep talking to Rand, who may be easier to handle now that she doesn’t have to try to turn him away from what he wants to do. She supposes she should be happy that he doesn’t make her fetch his wine, and does admit that he usually listens, though he doesn’t let her know what he is thinking.
Egwene decides to let Moiraine tell Rand about Siuan and the Tower, and they briefly discuss Nynaeve’s news about the Forsaken. Egwene is upset when Moiraine has no more of a suggestion about what to do than to keep watch, but the Aes Sedai reminds her that they can’t hold Rand’s hand forever. He has learned to walk, and now is learning to run, hopefully before his enemies can catch him. They can only hope it’s soon enough, and try to advise and guide him when they can.
Egwene starts to go, then stops and asks Moiraine why she is choosing to obey Rand, adding that even Nynaeve doesn’t think that it’s right.
“She does not, does she?” Moiraine murmured. “She will be Aes Sedai yet, whatever she wishes. Why? Because I remembered how to control saidar.”
After a moment, Egwene nodded. To control saidar, first you had to surrender to it.
It is only after Egwene leaves that it occurs to her that Moiraine spent the whole conversation speaking to her as an equal.
I’ve mentioned before that I don’t like the weird, gender stereotyped way saidin and saidar work, but I have to admit that last quote is incredibly effective.
I also said last week that I thought Nynaeve was soon going to get a taste of her own medicine, but this was not what I expected! Egwene seems to have been trying to replicate Amys’s lesson to her, but she added in some weird rape-y bits that I don’t see the point of. As I’ve noted the past few weeks, there’s been an uptick in this kind of incident and imagery in The Fires of Heaven, much more frequent and blatant than in the previous books, which is why I think it keeps pinging my radar. I don’t get why Egwene needed to teach the lesson in quite this way.
It does remind me of Nynaeve’s trials to become an Accepted, though. When she went through the first ring, Nynaeve was as naked on the other side as she was before stepping through, and she is still naked when she encounters Aginor, who is old and rotting the way he was when the team saw him at the Eye of the World. She runs from him until her anger becomes strong enough for her to turn to fight and then pursue him. It’s an excellent scene, and one that makes sense as fears Nynaeve has from her past. Aginor is obvious as a fear, given that the encounter with him was recent and Nynaeve’s first experience with the Forsaken. But the idea of being naked and exposed to a gross old man also has particular relevance when you consider that Nynaeve, as such a young wisdom, has probably had more than her fair share of being shamed and berated by men in Emond’s Field for the combination of her gender and youth. It makes a certain amount of sense that her remembrance of vulnerability would be tied up in such things, even though the Two Rivers is a far cry from places like Lugard or even the big cities of Andor.
But Egwene’s choice here makes less sense. It’s not what Amys did to her. Are these assault zombies a replication of something she has encountered herself, elsewhere in Tel’aran’rhiod, or did she make them up out of her own imagination? Since I covered this subject in the last two posts I don’t have too much to add now except to point out the implicit narrative judgement of Nynaeve from this scene. Because Nynaeve does need to learn this lesson, and since we know that Egwene is right, there is an implication that such a threat of assault is something that Nynaeve deserves. And that doesn’t sit right with me, even though the lesson as a whole does.
However, the narrative judgment is softened a little by the later revelation that Egwene took this tack with Nynaeve because she was trying to cover up her own misdeeds. And I did find the whole “I’m going to make you drink this stinky liquid as a punishment for lying” quite funny, as was Nynaeve’s inability to understand why she was still bending to Egwene’s will on things.
At the end of the chapter, Moiraine observes from Nynaeve’s attitude that she will be an Aes Sedai after all, but the person who really behaves like an Aes Sedai in Chapter 15 is Egwene. She manages to deflect any suspicion from herself with Nynaeve by behaving like an authority and is accepted as one. She communicates everything she needs to Moiraine and nothing she doesn’t, without actually telling a lie that would have been prohibited under the Three Oaths. I’m not sure she realizes how masterful she’s been, but it’s clear that her growth in experience has been accompanied by a growth in confidence and a talent for authority.
It makes a lot of sense as a journey for Egwene. While Nynaeve may have been more knowledgeable that Egwene at the start of the series, and may be stronger in the Power when she isn’t blocked, Egwene has been learning and growing at a much faster rate. It isn’t the literal block against channeling that is holding Nynaeve back but an emotional one (although one might argue that the two are one and the same). Until she can overcome her resistance to learning, to growing within herself, she can never be the kind of authority that Egwene and Elayne seem destined to be. And even when she does overcome these blocks, Nynaeve’s interests are very narrow compared to the two E’s. It’s almost as hard to imagine a Yellow as Amyrlin as it is to imagine a Brown: No matter how smart and talented they are, their interests are not connected enough to things like politics and the interplay of nations and the world at large. I can imagine Nynaeve becoming head of the Yellow Ajah at some point, but it is Egwene I can see as a future Amyrlin, and not just because of her vision inside the third ring of the arched ter’angreal. I could see Elayne there too, if she didn’t have other positions of authority to assume instead.
But Egwene is more ambitious than Elayne, I think, and I’ve noticed how much she has come to resemble Siuan and Moiraine in her thinking. She’s managed to pair logic to desperation, and to understand when risks are worth it and to take them as intelligently as she can. Her observation that one can accomplish more with calm and without shouting is very Moiraine (Siuan has a bit more of a temper) and it’s a very important lesson for Egwene to learn. What Nynaeve doesn’t understand is that once you are shouting, it means you have already lost control of a situation, and are allowing your temper to get the better of you. Shouting can occasionally cow people into submission I suppose, but that is much less likely to work than skill or logic, and usually will require being backed up by a show of force. Since Nynaeve is still blocked, she might do particularly well to learn this lesson.
But really, I’m just relieved the two finally figured out that Elaida is the new Amyrlin Seat. When Nynaeve saw Elaida in Tel’aran’rhiod and recognized that being the Amyrlin was her fondest dream but didn’t realize that it was currently true, I almost screamed in frustration. The Bonwhin thing isn’t really a tip-off unless you understand how Elaida thinks, but even still it and the furniture felt like context clues to me.
Sounds like Elaida isn’t doing too well, though. She dreamed the stole had no blue stripe on it, which is indicative, I think, of how much the absence of the Blues is weighing on her mind. Add to that her sweaty appearance and the way she reacts to seeing Nynaeve not showing the proper deference to the Amyrlin indicates that she’s not having a good dream, either, and we know she’s been stressed about how the sisters see her authority.
I also thought it was funny that Nynaeve didn’t seem to have any respect for Siuan’s desire to keep her furnishing simple, and I think this, too, shows how much Nynaeve’s own aspirations and ways of thinking have changed.
I had completely forgotten about Moiraine’s eavesdropping trick. The blue stone was in Egwene’s predictive Dream too, and I wonder how literally we should take it. Perhaps Thom will find the blue stone after Moiraine is killed by whatever fate she now knows awaits her, but it’s just as likely, maybe more likely, that the meaning of what Egwene saw is more obscure. I wonder how Moiraine and Thom will end up connected, and what that will mean for Moiraine’s ultimate fate.
Egwene also saw Aram with Perrin, and every time the former Tinker moved closer to Perrin she felt a thrill of doom. Not subtle at all, and I assume the moving closer means becoming more like a warrior. I wonder what dark fate awaits this Tinker turned swordsman; I don’t disagree with Perrin’s decision to let Aram fight, but that doesn’t mean the fall from the Way of the Leaf is going to go well for him. Though I suppose it’s also possible that the movement of getting closer to Perrin is more literal; perhaps Aram is going to want more from Perrin than Perrin is able to give. We did see how much he hovered back in The Shadow Rising, although Perrin’s companions did much the same.
But let’s get back to the eavesdropping trick. Knowing that Moiraine’s been listening to Rand’s conversations with Asmodean changes so much. It means she must know Natael’s true identity, and that she has at least some idea of the things Rand is learning from him. I wonder what she thinks of the gambit; Rand was under the suspicion that if Moiraine knew the truth about Asmodean she would believe that Rand had gone to the Shadow and try to kill him, but while I can see why he didn’t want to take the risk, he doesn’t even seem to have considered the idea that she might see his logic, even agree with it, if he explained the whole situation. And now we know she’s been listening in on him, which makes me wonder if she does agree, or at least understand. Then again, she might disagree but not know what to do about it, especially since he’d wonder how she found out.
Schemes within schemes, as Melaine said. Moiraine told the Wise Ones that Rand should be given privacy, but she spies on him herself. Rand fears Moiraine’s reactions to his secrets even as she guards them for him. Egwene upbraids Nynaeve for something she feels guilty about herself, and tells Moiraine lies by omission that any Aes Sedai would be proud of. And everyone risks as much as they dare, hoping that it will be enough to stave off utter destruction.
Next week we’ll cover Chapters 16 and 17, and be on the lookout for a bonus essay coming soon. I wish you all a good and safe week, and remember to behave in a way where no one will try to force you to drink terrible tasting tea as a punishment.
Sylas K Barrett is also quite curious to know what Rand thought was so funny in that book. He wonders if we’ll ever find out.
“When Nynaeve saw Elaida in Tel’aran’rhiod and recognized that being the Amyrlin was her fondest dream but didn’t realize that it was currently true, I almost screamed in frustration.”
“She dreamed the stole had no blue stripe on it, which is indicative, I think, of how much the absence of the Blues is weighing on her mind.”
I realize that Sylas has no real way to know, but I still found these back-to-back statements deeply ironic.
The reference to how to control saidar is a big RJ drop the mike moment that has been building for several books. It shows how much a master RJ truly is. Wow.
I can’t recall – do we ever find out what Rand thought was funn
This chapter is the most blatant example yet of why I dislike Egwene. She’s just as much a bully as Nynaeve, but while Nynaeve’s bullying is somewhat comical because we see her underlying insecurity, to me Egwene’s actions come across as those of a spoiled brat who totally doesn’t deserve the Wise Ones’ respect and guidance. She is disobeying the Wise Ones, and attacks Nynaeve to deflect her from that fact, and it really annoys me. I don’t want to start a whole raging debate about this, just my thoughts, but I can’t hold my tongue regarding Egwene in this particular chapter.
@3: I’m assuming it has something to do with the Karaethon Cycle. Maybe a contradiction on his role in Tarmon Gai’don. Though I doubt Rand has told Asmodean the answers he received in Finnland. Or it could be some historical documentation on innovations from the Age of Legends.
I’ve read this series in its entirety at least five times (and n +1 for each book prior to ToM all the way up to this one) and I don’t think I ever noticed that Moiraine learning about Asmodean’s identity was on-screen. I assumed it was her eavesdropping trick, but totally missed when it was shown.
I think this might be the earliest I’ve ever seen a first-time reader pick up on the Thom/Moiraine thing, too.
Sylas really needs to learn to stop reading his own assumptions into this story. Again we get the “life must have been hard for Nynaeve because she’s a woman” idea, which…how much time have we spent around Two Rivers people by now? And honestly, if you just read what’s on the page Egwene is the villain of this chapter. She’s lying, manipulative, selfish, arrogant and cruel. But she is a protagonist, and so there’s this assumption that she’s good, but the narrative does not support that assumption at all during this chapter.
Honestly, someone at Tor really should just point out some of this stuff because it’s getting to be strictly falsehoods about the text.
@@.-@. Egwene also holds Nynaeve and Elayne to standards she has no intention of keeping. It would be one thing if she acknowledged that others might also want to push ahead for similar reasons to hers. Egwene just wants everything now and doesn’t want to wait. Ever. But that’s only okay for her.
@7 – we have seen multiple times from Nynaeve’s point of view that Sylas’s reading is essentially correct in that regard.
@4/5/7/8 – Egwene is undeniably developing impressively in this chapter and it’s worthy of note, but I don’t think that means anyone is trying to excuse her lies or self-righteousness. She does eventually go on to acknowledge and, to the extent offered by those she’s wronging, meet her Toh… but I agree that she’s got a ways to go still and will remain insufferable in a number of ways as she matures farther.
As was said in Leigh Butler’s excellent re-reads, Egwene is the classic “Ooh ooh girl” who raises her hand to answer every question poised by the teacher. Smart and focused, but no doubt irritating as heck to those in “class” with her. I like her more than most but, yeah, I acknowledge her hypocrisy shown in this chapter. Bigly.
It’s not hypocrisy. Egwene doesn’t care that Nynaeve is pressing ahead in TaR. As she explained later in the chapter, it was a tactic to keep Nynaeve from learning that Egwene WASN’T obeying the wise ones. It’s not hypocrisy when you do it intentionally and aren’t lying to yourself about it–its just another control and manipulation tactic.
Your tolerance for Egwene will largely depend on your views surrounding rules and leadership.
In the fictional CRPG in my head the scene goes like this: “Congratulations EQWENE; you have unlocked the skill BULLYING. Note that while you possess this skill your alignment cannot be LAWFUL GOOD. If you were LAWFUL GOOD you are reassigned to NEUTRAL GOOD. Relationships with children and animals are -5. Professions LAW ENFORCEMENT and PRISON GUARD are now open to you.”
Can anyone remind me which chapter Egwene had the predictive dream that Sylas mentioned? Want to go back and read it again now I’ve finished the series
@14 – I’m not sure exactly which chapter it’s in, but I’m pretty sure it was earlier in this book. In the dream, Thom reaches into a fire to pull out Moiraine’s blue stone.
@14, 15 – might be completely confused but wasn’t it in this chapter, only as a thought in Eg’s pov and not covered in the recap?
@14 – the predictive dream about Thom and the blue stone is in this chapter – Chapter 15.
AP @12 – I don’t view hypocrisy as being limited to non-intentional acts. Stating publicly to someone else that something is bad but doing it herself is textbook hypocrisy. It certainly also is a control and manipulation tactic.
It is funny but I re-read Leigh Butler’s bit on this chapter, and even though she is generally an Egwene fan the girl really pissed her off in this chapter. She says the worst part is that after she scares the crap out of Nyneave and causes physical scratches and mental harms to her, Egwene giggles to herself. That is a good point – really cold, girl.
@12 Anthony Pero
The intersting thing here is that the idea of just trusting your friends and allies and telling them the truth or respecting their choices occurs to no one. All the interactions are about power and control.Nynaeve doesnt admit to Egwene that she lied because she is sorry and wants to be trusted, but to regain power in their relationship. Egwene doesnt tell Nynaeve that the Wise Ones forbade her to roam the dreamworld freely, that would give Nynaeve power over her and Egwene cant abide that, even with a friend. And the Wise Ones are unable to just teach Egwene what they know and let her decide which risks she is willing to take – they need absolute control. Jordan probably only did this to add conflict, but it is a bit depressing really…
Re: Egwene, it’s worth noting that she’s gone through some pretty serious trauma recently. (Less than a year in-world, I believe.) That’s understandably affected her perspective on power and control.
MODS There’s a spelling error. The piece of artwork with Bonwhin referenced twice is a triptych, not a “tryptic.”
Interesting that Sylas does not appear to entertain the idea that Moiraine might survive and that Thom might more or less literally pull her bacon out of the fire. Though he does know that Moiraine was inspired by Merlin, who is trapped, disappears, and later resurfaces briefly before the end, so maybe he’ll figure that out later on his own.
@20 – Corrected, thanks!
I will say that the narrative I don’t think really puts Egwene in a good light – there’s not consensus on Egwene’s character throughout the fandom. I think the narrative just presents the characters as they are and people will draw their own conclusions. (I actually like Egwene quite a bit but I think this is definitely one of her lowest moments).
But all the subterfuge going on between Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Rand, etc is just part of that whole larger theme about how bad comunication kills.
Typos:
“tell Nynaeve” → “tells Nynaeve”
“Wise One’s” → “Wise Ones’”
Was “tool” meant to be “too”?
“how literal” → “how literally”
This chapter contains examples of a thing I’ve seen repeatedly in different fantasy works: people talking in tents as if they were sound-proof rooms. Rand wants to talk to Asmodean without Aviendha present, so she goes to stand right outside the tent. Egwene hears what is said inside only while peeking in, as if she can’t hear people she can’t see. Then Egwene and Moiraine talk about sensitive matters in Moiraine’s tent.
I have lain in a tent, kept awake by people talking from tent to tent around me. A tent in a camp is just about the worst place imaginable to talk about secrets. People outside the tent will hear you just fine, but you won’t see that they’re there. To talk about secrets, go for a walk in a large open space where you can see people coming.
@23: Fixed, thanks!
Asmo could probably teach Rand to ward the tent against eavesdropping, but if they had used that Moiraine couldn’t listen to them.
@@@@@ 18 – you bring up a good point about trusting friends and allies. A big part of the point of the series, and the people who read and interpret it on this site, is that the heroes tend to prosper when they’re open and honest with each other, and get into deeper shit when they keep secrets or try to manipulate each other.
But as we see and will see, this is really a one way street, with the women being far more secretive and manipulative than the men, at least among the protagonists. Egwene is a great example of this – her headfirst dive into being “Aes Sedai” pretty much alienates her from the supposed savior of the world, a mistake she doesn’t rectify until it’s nearly too late. We’ll see with Elayne and Nynaeve in a few books that their unspoken assumptions and unwillingness to treat Mat as an adult cost them time and effort, not to mention embarrassment. This doesn’t really happen for the guys, except perhaps Perrin in his relationship with Faile.
Rombo @@@@@ 23 – I have definitely been camping before, trying to sleep in my tent and kept awake by people talking for hours outside. So yes, I know what you mean! I think I imagine that the tents here are similar to thicker, canvas tents…so while not soundproof, if you talk quietly the sound won’t go straight through like it would with the majority of the lightweight backpacking tents we use today.
@23 – I definitely had the impression that the tents Our Heroes are using are much larger, thicker, and sturdier than what we think of as a tent. Thicker canvas or hide and large enough to walk around in and have furniture. So someone sitting at a table in the middle of the tent speaking in a normal tone of voice or slightly below won’t necessarily be audible to someone standing outside. We aren’t there yet, but Perrin has a damn king size bed in his tent a couple of books from now.
This is, I believe, a bit of projection here, though in Barrett’s defense, lots of readers who have read the series multiple times and post videos about it on YouTube make the same one. Although Sylas should know better that Nynaeve’s whole occupation is feminine-coded in their culture, so gender-shaming her would not make a lot of sense. But the thing here is, WoT is not the real world. Prejudice and gender dynamics don’t always work the same way. All Wisdoms are women. Nynaeve isn’t getting slagged for her gender but for her extreme youth. And it’s more from women that Nynaeve feels it, which is how Moiraine got off on the wrong foot with her, by treating her as a young girl (it also does not help that Nynaeve, because of her channeling, only looks about the same age as Rand).
But if WoT women are getting slighted for masculine-coded activity and behavior, it’s not the patriarchy punishing them for not knowing their places, rather it is the matriarchy scorning them for slumming. Female warriors in this world are not being treated like Brienne of Tarth, they are being treated like Sam Tarly. For those who have not read aSoI&F, they are being treated like men who do not perform conventional masculinity and embrace feminine-coded behaviors and practices.
Citation need. We know no such thing. Remember, Egwene thinks Nynaeve was off spying on the Forsaken, when she is just repeating Birgitte’s reports to cover for the other woman’s secret. And Egwene is just doing this to cover her own misdeed, and possibly out of annoyance that Nynaeve resisted giving the same promise she gave to Amys, was punished for breaking in the last book and is still breaking. We saw how she resented Rand & Mat not being threatened with doing the dishes, which was an absurd bit of irrationality, since they were also not asking for free teaching, and incidentally room and board without which you’d be not just uncomfortable, but dead. And they are risking their lives, because they are being forced to undertake a Great Destiny for the sake of the rest of the world. But all Egwene can see is that she is being threatened with chores if she wastes her teachers’ time and they are not, and that’s not fair. So, resenting Nynaeve for getting away without having to obey the Wise Ones is probably a huge issue in her motivation.
Lying, abusing power, thinking only of her personal authority and not what she’s doing to others to maintain it, turning her back on friends and family who predate the White Tower. Damn, spot-on analysis. This is the book where we start learning that “behaves like an Aes Sedai” is not much of a compliment.
See above. Barrett indirectly notes that Moiraine has poisoned the well in her dealings with Rand with her secretive and controlling behaviors. Honestly, her tactics bear more than a little resemblance to those of abusers. She wants to keep him doubting himself, she is constantly trying to denigrate him and erode his confidence, she tries to isolate him, by sending away people who are more loyal to him than to her and leaving her dependent on her and her alone, she undermines his authority with others… And Rand is no dummy, even if he doesn’t articulate a lot. And Siuan is even worse, she’s the one that Moiraine feels she can’t confide in and says she can’t accept certain realities.
And shows just how little she has actually learned. A lot of people like to credit her with changing her thinking when she finally swore to stop manipulating Rand. But here she is, keeping the fact that she knows a secret, depriving Rand of the benefit of her knowledge and insight and judgment in his dealings with Asmodean. Hell, she could actually link them so Asmodean could teach him properly! But even if she doesn’t want to reveal her knowledge to the Forsaken, she could do so to Rand and make him aware that he can check her assessments of their conversations, or test things Asmodean tells him. She could help him figure out what questions to ask, help him realize what he does not know and could find out. But instead, she keeps quiet about it, so she does not have to commit, so she can sit back and criticize if it goes badly, while maintaining her illusion of omniscience if she ever sees some advantage in revealing how much she knows about Rand’s activities.
That line about controlling saidar is not a mic drop as said above, it’s Colonel Jessup blurting out “You’re damn right, I did!” on the witness stand. It’s Moiraine revealing that she’s still part of the problem. Controlling Rand is not her job, it is not her purpose. Recall what the Aelfinn said to Mat about what happens regarding ta’veren when they don’t fulfill their fate. The same could be said about people who interfere with a ta’veren’s fate. And she is not doing Egwene any favors with this example.
Joiya nailed it with Moiraine in the last book, pointing out how scant her education and experience is compared to most Aes Sedai. And in the next chapter, Moiraine walks into the room, throws around insults to make herself feel better because she has power over the girls and not Rand, and then proceeds to cite a prophecy she clearly knows best how to fulfil and Rand is headed for disaster if he doesn’t listen to her. Jordan does not do this sort of thing by accident. He loves to sneak in the rebuttal to a future argument about a character before the criticism comes up.
For all their courage, determination and dedication, it’s flaws like this pride that won’t let them give up control, that prevent Moiraine and Siuan from being heroes, and necessitate the Pattern pulling them down or pushing them aside so better people can step up and do the right thing.
A final point:
Yeah, no. Those are Ajahs with a purpose and not an assumed mandate for authority. Those are people with a life beyond being in charge (I mean, not that Yellows and Browns are not just as prone as the others to forget their true vocations and become absorbed in politics and Daes Daemar) and staying in charge. It’s like saying that a doctor or a scholar is an inferior choice for a leader to a professional politician. That kind of thinking is exactly why the world of WoT is screwed up and needs for its salvation, ta’veren who can make the impossible happen, and bypass the failing System.
And regarding the context about Nynaeve’s lack of “leadership” compared to Egwene, Barrett is right, but oh so wrong, too. There is more to leadership than winning a contest of deceptions or intimidating people. Because Egwene didn’t “win” their contest, Nynaeve lost it on an own goal. She needs to learn to be her best self, because that’s the path to inspirational leadership. Nynaeve’s instances of leadership have come from convincing people to be their best self and stand up and do the right thing, such as in rescuing Egwene from the Seanchan, wrangling Domon as a getaway driver and administering justice to the sul’dam. Or converting Egeanin. Yeah, Egeanin was having doubts, but spending a few days with Moiraine or Verin would have had her deciding the a’dam isn’t the worst thing in the world after all.
Buried among the multitude of despicable comments by Egwene is her snide remark about Moiraine not being able to cry for her friend, after what Egwene has just done to her own. This isn’t the first time, either, making a similar comment about Moiraine not being able to recognize that Faile and Perrin are in love. Meanwhile, Moiraine is much more aware of the troublesome behavior of Faile at that point in their relationship, not the least of which is the secret of her family, as well as her propensity for trying to drag Perrin off for her own gratification, while Egwene, the wise and all-seeing expert on relationships, adjudges that Faile is “good for him”. She was, at the time, trying to manipulate Perrin and intruding on his personal life, after several weeks of unpleasant stalker-y behavior, like touching Perrin to make him react, entering his bedroom uninvited to watch him sleep and making comments on his state of undress. Of course, Egwene also has a history of butting uninvited into the other two ta’verens‘ personal lives and making uninformed judgments about their relationships, while being completely oblivious to the romantic tensions between Rand and Aviendha.
She also tells Aviendha that Rand needs company and someone to talk to beyond a sycophantic gleeman, but she is on Tower Business, she’s clearly way too important to do that herself. After all, the news that Elaida is Amyrlin is of direct and pressing concern to her & Moiraine, there on the far side of a mountain range from the White Tower, she cannot spare a moment to give a friend the support and reinforcement she herself says he needs!
Egwene, I think, is seen as a good friend, because she pays a lot of lip service to the concept, but her actions never match. When it’s a choice between being there for a friend or servicing her ambitions, the latter wins out every time.
Egwene is exactly the “ooh, me! me!” girl, because that girl is not interested in learning, she’s interested in showing off and garnering status, even at the expense of others. That’s exactly what that behavior is in the classroom, and why several of my teachers made a point of calling on people who did not have their hand raised, to make sure they were learning. But just as she did when Elyas said Perrin could learn to talk to wolves and she could not, just as she did when Nynaeve was talking with Mother Guenna in Tear, just as she did with Moiraine and the Wise Ones on Chaendar, she always wants to draw attention back to herself and the hell with anyone else’s efforts or opportunities to broaden their own knowledge. She’s like Eustace in Voyage of the Dawn Treader, who cares a great deal about his grades, not for the sake of learning or doing his best, but to be able to compare them with others for status purposes. She wanted to braid her hair so she could reveal the braid to Rand in a dramatically understated fashion, she did not give a damn about being allowed to marry the guy she has maneuvered into being recognized as her private property by the social practices of their village. She cared nothing for adult responsibilities, just the exercise of what she saw as adult power. That’s why Rand laughs when she tells him she’s studying under Nynaeve; he knows that taking care of the sick and injured is not enough for Egwene, she has to have the title of Wisdom too. And she won’t get it in Emond’s Field, where the title is for life and currently being held by a 24 year old.
@30: as someone who grew up as something of an oooh! oooh! guy, I can tell you that you’ve misinterpreted the motive. It is absolutely about learning–specifically, it’s trying to answer all of these (simple, obvious) questions so we can move on already to something that is actually interesting and new. Granted, that’s a rather self-centered take on learning since there is no consideration given to those students who might be struggling to keep up (which is why I learned to tone it down after one of my teachers took time to talk to me about how I was being unfair to other students), but it is not about showing off, nor is it about status. It’s about getting as much knowledge as possible out of the teacher as quickly as possible.
Which is not to say that Egwene doesn’t care about status, because she absolutely does. But to say that she only cares about status, to claim that she does not care about learning or doing her best, is to drastically misread her character.
@31
I think the “Ooh Me” thing breaks down under close scrutiny, because real world school is unlike anything Egwene goes through. She thrusts herself into these situations, she’s utterly hypocritical about holding others to rules she ignores herself, because she knows better. It never occurs to her that Nynaeve might be a prodigy in her own right – after all no one ever offered Egwene a position 20-30 years early based on her amazing abilities – and have the same issues with being held back; instead, Egwene castigates and terrorizes her. When Elyas offers to guide and protect them, and says that Perrin can learn what Egwene has expressed an interest in learning herself but cannot (so it’s not some revulsion or lack of appreciation for that particular lore), Egwene is unilaterally declaring that they are going to Tar Valon, without even considering Perrin’s position or issues. But when she’s again the center of attention, it’s all “Wee, Tinkers are fun, live in the moment, Perrin and stop harshing my buzz!”
Again, with Mother Guenna, Egwene, who cannot Heal, has negative interest in learning more about medicine and ridicules Nynaeve’s interest. Even setting aside her blindness to what Nynaeve is actually doing, demonstrating her bona fides to Alhuin and recruiting local assistance, there is the point that this is knowledge and learning from which Egwene could derive the most benefit but she has no use for it, because in her own words, it’s only useful if you want to be a Wisdom and their sights are much higher now. Even though she spends the entire rest of the series in the company of one of the two or three best Healers in the world, Elayne finds ways to put her mundane medical training to use. But Egwene never cares. It ain’t gonna help her move ahead. The closest she comes to Healing anyone is when she links to lend Nynaeve strength and even then has to make a speech making it all about the context of her rank and claiming the moral high ground, as if alleviating a human being’s suffering is not sufficient motive on its own. Same thing on Chaendar. Moiraine is digging out some interesting revelations about the Aiel and Rand and the Pattern and how all this stuff in which they are very much involved is turning out, but Egwene’s all “Can we talk about me now?”
There is a distinct pattern of attention-seeking behavior from Egwene (as well as a possibly corresponding self-destructive inability to maintain a ruse or lie low, even when her safety or mission depend on it) in more areas than just learning. She’s way more susceptible to flattery than Rand or Nynaeve, for one thing, despite her readiness to accuse them of arrogance or pretending to greater competence.
Something else to note about Egwene – she’s basically hillbilly Elayne, with all of Elayne’s flaws but none of Elayne’s empathy to mitigate them.
Hey all–just a reminder that this is supposed to be a fun, safe space to talk about the books, so maybe it’s not helpful to get wrapped up in expressing hatred or contempt for a type of person or behavior you’ve encountered in the real world…it feels a bit overly personal. Better to focus on the actual character and the text rather than venting about people who’ve annoyed you.
*Update: no need to apologize! We just want to try to keep the conversation on an even keel–thanks for understanding :)
Egwene is one of the most divisive characters in the fandom. We understand. I like her and appreciate her but this chapter represents a low point, and perhaps the lowest point, in her character arc.
Just a couple of points. Something I noticed earlier, do we know how much Egwene was influenced by Paden Fain? She spent a lot of time with him in tGH after all, and we are told his influence is corrosive. I also had the realization that Egwene is Rand’s Mierin, just like Elayne is his Ilyena. Lews Therin said he left Mierin due to her love of power, just a thought. I think Rand would have eventually dropped Egwene if she hadn’t decided to hand him off.
Two last points on power from Ragnar Lothbrok.. Power is only available to those willing to lower themselves to pick it up and power attracts the worst and corrupts the best.
@38
I love the idea of Egwene being influenced by Fain. It explains her insane decision to try to hide Rand in a dungeon she knew was guarded by men who would see him going in and not coming out, and who have exactly zero motive to deny his presence. It is the most unutterably stupid plan in the books. So why did Egwene do it? Why did she double down, dragging Mat and trying to bring Perrin, after Rand’s encounter has just demonstrated that seeing the Emond’s Field boys does not help Fain at all, and the worst Egwene has ever seen him is in Rand’s presence. So why bring Mat? Unless Fain corrupted her and used her to bring his prey within reach…
It would also explain how Egwene’s reaction to learning that Rand is “just a poor doomed fool who can channel” to paraphrase Thom, is to hug him immediately and say “I don’t care,” yet one book later, on learning that he’s the Dragon Reborn and thus has at least a Prophecy and a Destiny that suggest he might last a bit longer, in which case his prospects as a partner have improved immeasurably, she tells Min, “He’s not safe for anyone.” And thereafter she is the most creeped out by his channeling of any of his friends, except maybe Mat. In the interim, between the two events, she spent all that time with Fain. Remember what he says about Elaida and Niall, that he touched them with his Shadar Logoth nature and they’d never trust Rand after that.
Unfortunately, Word of God, from Jordan’s notes (or maybe an interview), is that Fain’s powers were activated by taking the dagger from Mat in the dungeons. He retained those powers without it (his entire acquaintance with Elaida & Niall both was before he recovered it from the Tower), but he didn’t have them during his chats with Egwene. Though he might have done something on the way out the door while she was unconscious, maybe it amused him to sow a weed in Rand’s garden.
So she’s just that way on her own.
IDK if Rand would have broken up with Egwene. Not unless she pushed the relationship issue with him, and maybe not even then. He’s so full of self-loathing, I don’t think he’d ever think enough of himself to reject someone he cares about, no matter how little he wanted to get in deeper. I think he’d have put on a good face and dodged the relationship as long as he could, but I don’t think he’d ever make a move on his own, even if his attraction to his OT3 grew. It would only fuel his self-hatred and give him ammunition to consider himself a disgusting lecher and a cheater who did not deserve to be free of Egwene.
My own theory regarding Rand and power is that his purpose is not to use power, but to embody and contain it. Notice that every use of his power for anything other than directly fighting the Shadow blows back against him somehow? Even his hand-to-hand combat skills bring more pain on him than benefit, as they lead him to attempt things he otherwise would not have, like keeping undercover in the rebel camp and trying to walk out instead of Skimming to safety, or his Far Madding plan which led to a second traumatic captivity. And the first traumatic captivity was exacerbated by the punishments from killing Erian’s warders. Things also go badly for him when he exerts political power. Whenever Rand is actively ruling, there is a palpable feel of frustration to the narrative and he seldom accomplishes much, or causes at least as much damage as he prevents. See Andor, for instance. He manages to quell usurpers and keep the lights on, figuratively speaking, but creates a political quagmire for Elayne. Moridin’s little philosophical chess game in tPoD is to foreshadow that Rand makes the right choice at the end of the book to eschew armies and thrones, and go off on his own. And you know what? The world doesn’t fall apart without him. As soon as he starts putting other people in charge, like Berelain, then Dobraine, Darlin & Gregorin, the countries settle down and the problems start going away. Rand is a lot more effective as a symbolic ruler than as a politician or administrator (not that he’s incompetent; the stuff that happens, the rebellions and whatnot aren’t his fault, but it’s more like King Rand or even Regent Rand is unnatural, and the world unconsciously fights his rule). And of course, the problems he has with channeling are pretty explicit, with first the taint making every time he channels feel risky, and then the Moridin feedback. As the Dragon Reborn, Rand was probably at his wisest in Tear. He just set guidelines for the High Lords, he gave them projects and turned them loose, he spent most of his time with his books (or girlfriend, and that’s another Patterny thing: he does a lot better with people when he has Elayne or Aviendha or Min around, like they are charisma-angreal or something for him, even if they are not actively doing diplomacy on his behalf) and he knew enough to set Callandor aside and not try to lead the campaigns or negotiate the treaties himself.
All due respect to Ragnar Lothbrook, but Rand uniquely does not have to lower himself to pick up power, the Pattern just kind of says “here, hold this” and dumps it on him. For all that Rand is appreciating Moiraine’s tutelage, she’s actually training him to lower himself. In hindsight, her counsel to him in the previous two books was so innocently disastrous and catastrophically conventional. A critical insight to Moiraine’s worth as a political advisor is what she did in New Spring: she ran away from politics, because she honestly believed it was impossible to rule without committing atrocities. And yet, she has become so jaded that she is trying to turn the champion of the Light and the leader of the resistance to Evil, into the kind of monster she fled rather than become so herself. Moiraine can’t be a fit advisor to Rand until she figures out how to break the cycle of abuse instead of perpetuating it.
Nynaeve, as such a young wisdom, has probably had more than her fair share of being shamed and berated by men in Emond’s Field for the combination of her gender and youth.
No. Just no. Nynaeve’s troubles have been with the Women’s Circle and older women’s reluctance to treat her as Wisdom. She never mentions trouble with the Men’s Council nor would I expect it. Sure they might grumble about that whippersnapper Wisdom behind her back but they’d never risk dissing her to her face. Gender relations simply don’t work that way in Randland. Men defer to women. Women regard men as pretty little airheads who need steady female guidance. Some places it’s even worse than that. Far Madding for example.
I’ve sometimes wondered if Eggy is driven not just by willfulness but by a subconscious recognition she hasn’t much time to learn everything she needs to learn. Dominating Nynaeve isn’t very nice of her, on the other hand all previous efforts to establish a more equal relationship with her former mentor have failed. Nynaeve obviously won’t recognize that she is no longer the boss of Eggy unless her nose is rubbed in it. Eggy’s methods are cruel, but then she’s been living with and internalizing Aiel ways for some some time now.
Great re-read and I appreciate Sylas bringing up topics that sometimes may be as hard to cover now as they would have been when these books were first published. I don’t necessarily agree with Sylas on every aspect but I appreciate his POV and how it makes my mind and perspective evolve and grow.
That being said I do remember absolutely hating Egwene and Nynaeve when I first read the series and having read Leigh’s read through and now reading this one I can tell you I have a grudging admiration for Nynaeve but I still can’t stand Egwene. I doubt I ever will.