This week in Reading The Wheel of Time, we travel to Ebou Dar by way of Elayne being kind of insufferable to Mat, and then we get there and Elayne and Nynaeve get a chance to practice being real Aes Sedai, despite Vandene and Adeleas’s opinions on the matter. I think I’m really going to enjoy the visit to Ebou Dar… but I’m not sure our heroes are. Let’s start with our recap of Chapters 47 and 48.
Traveling to Ebou Dar is pretty quiet, but Mat finds it challenging contending with Elayne and the other Aes Sedai. Because he assumed they would be traveling all the way to Ebou Dar by Gateway, he hadn’t told the men to pack any provisions, so he ends up sharing out all the delicacies Nerim—the manservant Talmanes sent with Mat—had packed for Mat’s dinners. Nerim is upset by this, and the men would clearly prefer to be eating the lamb and soup the Aes Sedai are having for dinner, but there seems to be an invisible line between the two camps, and Mat has the sense of some kind of argument brewing between the Aes Sedai, Aviendha, and the Hunter for the Horn.
However, Elayne comes over to Mat after dinner and asks him to walk with her. She tells him that he has a ter’angreal, which some people hold are the rightful property of the Aes Sedai. She says she will not demand that he give up his ter’angreal, but that he will surrender it to her each evening, for study, and that she will return it in the morning. Mat responds by asking what right she has to make demands of him, and that she can ask Rand about ter’angreal after Mat delivers her to him. Elayne responds by walking along the line of horses and inspecting Mat’s side of the camp, then loudly announcing that he has done well, and that she is pleased. She returns to her side of the camp, but a moment later Mat feels the foxhead medallion go cold, and turns to see Elayne, Nynaeve, and Vandene and Adeleas all watching him, and Adeleas making notes in a small book.
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They join a road the next day, on which they see a variety of travelers, and soon after they are able to stay at inns rather than camping outside. Elayne continues to inspect Mat’s men, and begins telling him to do things as well. They are all things that make sense, things that Mat already intended to do, so he can’t tell her no, and after a while his men seem to take a liking to Elayne and enjoy her praise.
Nynaeve is still avoiding Mat, the other Aes Sedai peer at him like he is something to be studied, and even the Hunter, Birgitte, steers clear of him. Fortunately, Thom and Juilin are willing to ride with Mat or go out drinking at an inn. They mostly talk of Ebou Dar, and Mat also learns that he isn’t imaging the tension that Elayne and Nynaeve have with the older Aes Sedai, although even Thom doesn’t know what it is about. Thom also reveals that Elayne has bonded Birgitte as her Warder, which the Aes Sedai were not pleased about, both because Birgitte is a woman and because Aes Sedai don’t usually bond anyone so quickly after being raised. Nalesean can’t believe that there could be a woman Warder, even in this day and age.
Mat shrugged. “I suppose she’ll do well enough as long as she really can shoot that bow. Down the wrong hole?” he asked Juilin, who had begun choking on his ale. “Give me a good bow over a sword any day. Better a quarterstaff, but a bow is just fine. I only hope she doesn’t try to get in my way when it’s time to take Elayne to Rand.”
“I think she can shoot it.” Thom leaned across the table to slap Juilin on the back. “I think she can, Mat.”
The medallion continues growing cold at different moments, sometimes several times a day, during the trip. Mat can never quite figure out which woman is channeling at him at which time—except once when Adeleas uses the One Power to fling horse manure at him. Mat had never considered that an Aes Sedai could still use the One Power to throw something at him. He tells himself that being protected from direct channeling is still better than nothing, but also goes inside to get drunk on some very strong brandy.
He is hung over when they enter Ebou Dar, riding through the city until they reach a large palace that Mat deduces must be the Tarasin Palace, where Tylin rules from. As Adeleas and Vandene confer together, Mat is surprised to realize that he can feel the dice rolling in his head. He considers whether or not he should come with the Aes Sedai into the Palace—he likes anywhere with gold and servants, but he doesn’t like having a lot of nobles around, and he’s not sure how he’d feel if Elayne started referring to him and his men as hers in front of any of those nobles. Deciding that Nynaeve and Elayne are as safe in the Palace as they would be anywhere, he loudly declares that he will go find an inn for himself and his men, and invites Juilin and Thom to join him for some punch. The men demur, saying they should stay close to Elayne and Nynaeve.
As he turns his horse, Elayne advises him not to let his men drink so much, especially in front of Olver, and Mat once again regrets that he does need to do as she suggests. The inn—called the Wandering Woman—has just the sort of common room Mat was hoping for, and as he is greeted by the innkeeper, he remarks that he feels like he has come home. Oddly, the dice have stopped rolling in his head.
After a bath, Nynaeve joins Elayne, Birgitte, and Aviendha in their shared sitting room. Elayne has put a ward against eavesdropping around the room, and they discuss the dismissive way they’ve been treated by Vandene and Adeleas over the course of the journey, and how their meeting with Merilille had been little more than a presentation and a dismissal. It is clear that the three women still see them as Accepted, despite their being raised by Egwene.
Nynaeve is convinced they are hiding something—she has overheard Adeleas say something about looking for runaways when they get to Ebou Dar, though there have been no runaways from Salidar. Elayne thinks Nynaeve is making something out of nothing, and that it’s better that Adeleas and Vandene want to look for runaways than it would be if they took over looking for the bowl.
Talk turns briefly to Mat, and Elayne reflects that she must puzzle out what to do about the ter’angreal. Elayne claims that by only telling him to do what he had to do anyway in the beginning, she could bring Mat into the habit of following orders, but Nynaeve is skeptical of the plan. However, they both agree that the most important part of this trip is to find the bowl.
They discuss how to look for it, and decide that they should all obtain Ebou Dari dresses, though Birgitte, Elayne, and Aviendha’s light hair will still stand out. Just then a servant comes in and announces that “Queen Tylin wishes to see the three Aes Sedai.” After a little confusion over the number, Aviendha and Birgitte decide to go have a look around the city while Elayne and Nynaeve go to meet the Queen. In the corridors Nynaeve catches sight of Jaichim Carridin. She asks the servant what the man is doing here, but the woman only answers that the Children of the Light sent an embassy months ago before hurrying them along.
Queen Tylin does not offer them the courtesy expected, immediately demanding to know how old they are and deriding their age. Nynaeve boldly tells her that she is 26 and an Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah, and that Elayne may only be 18, but that Egwene, the Amyrlin Seat, is no older than that.
“Is she?” Tylin said in a flat voice. “I was not told that. When the Aes Sedai who counseled me from the day I took the throne, and my father before me, abruptly leaves for the Tower without explanation, and I then learn that rumors of a Tower divided are true; when Dragonsworn seem to spring out of the ground; when an Amyrlin is chosen to oppose Elaida and an army gathered under one of the great captains, inside Altara, before I hear of it—when all of that has happened, you cannot expect me to be enamored of surprises.”
Elayne interjects to “add [her] apologies to those of Merilille and the others” for building an army within her borders, saying that it was unconscionable and that they meant no disrespect or threat to the throne of the winds. She promises that Gareth Bryne is currently leading the army north out of Altara. Tylin responds that she has heard no apologies until Elayne’s, but that any ruler of Altara has to learn to swallow the insults of greater powers. Finally, she invites them to sit.
“Lean back on your knife and let your tongue go free.” Her sudden smile was very close to a grin. “I don’t know how you say it in Andor. Be at ease, and speak your mind as you wish.”
Both Elayne and Nynaeve sit, and Nynaeve finds herself wondering if Tylin has some hidden angle or if this some kind of test. Elayne lets her take the lead, however, when Tylin asks why four more Aes Sedai come to Ebou Dar from Salidar. She mentions two Aes Sedai who have come from Elaida, and also the Whitecloaks. When Nynaeve learns that Tylin doesn’t like the Whitecloaks, she asks why Tylin has to entertain Carridin at all.
After a long pause, Tylin tells them that she wants her one surviving son, Beslan, to succeed her on the throne. Few houses have had more than two rulers in succession, and she tells them about the difficulty of any ruler holding power even in the city, and how her father fought to expand his control to the amount Tylin holds now. She expanded her territory to twice that, until news of Callandor and the Dragon Reborn came.
“Now I thank Pedron Niall when he arranges for Illian to take a hundred-mile swathe of Altara instead of invading. I listen to Jaichim Carridin, and I do not spit in his eye, however many Altarans died in the Whitecloak War. I listen to Carridin, and to Teslyn, and to Merilille, and I pray that I can pass something to my son instead of being found drowned in my bath on the day Beslan meets with an accident hunting.”
She tells them that she has bared herself to them, and asks that they answer her question in turn. To Nynaeve’s surprise, Elayne tells her everything about the ter’angreal they are seeking. Tylin warns them of the danger in the area of the city Elayne describes, and remarks that the Aes Sedai never tell her a word more than necessary, until now, and invites the two to share punch and to tell her how she can help them, and they are introduced to Beslan before they retire back to their quarters.
Nynaeve muses on the fact that Vandene and Adeleas apparently intend to take over the search for the bowl, and wonders if it was wise of Elayne to tell Tylin everything.
“I know how my mother felt about Aes Sedai traveling about Andor, never letting her know what they were doing. I know how I would feel. Besides, I finally remembered being taught about that phrase—lean back on your knife and the rest. The only way to insult somebody who says that to you is to lie.”
Elayne adds that as dangerous as the city might be, it can’t be worse than Tanchico. Plus they have no Black Ajah to worry about here. She wagers that in ten days they will have the bowl, she will have figured out how Mat’s ter’angreal works (with Mat knuckling his forehead to her), and the other Aes Sedai will be left wondering what happened as Elayne and Nynaeve head back to Salidar.
Nynaeve could not help it; she laughed out loud. A lanky serving man shifting a large vase of golden porcelain stared at her, and she stuck out her tongue at him. He nearly dropped the vase. “I won’t take that wager, except about Mat. Ten days it is.”
I don’t want to say that Nynaeve and Elayne are getting cocky, but they are definitely getting cocky. Elayne saying that the Rahad couldn’t be worse than Tanchico and that they don’t have to worry about Black Ajah pretty much guarantees that things are going to go badly, and some Black Ajah or Forsaken are going to show up. Elayne might as well have said “What could possibly go wrong” or “At least things can’t get any worse.”
To be fair, that is a metatextual observation that Elayne isn’t in the position to make, but outside of jinxing things, she has been warned by the ruler of the city herself that the area she saw in the Dream, Rahad, is incredibly dangerous, and they’ve also been warned by a variety of other people, including Thom, who Elayne purportedly trusts and relies on more, now. Right? Saidar is great, but kind of hard to reach for if you’ve already been stabbed. And just because they captured Moghedien doesn’t mean the rest of the Forsaken aren’t out there, plus Carridin and his Whitecloaks are in the city, and at least two representatives for Elaida—who is to say there aren’t others in the city, unbeknownst to Queen Tylin?
Of course, it’s possible that Elayne is speaking optimistically and isn’t actually discounting the dangers she’ll be facing.
I love that I just asked how old the kids were at this point in the story and almost immediately got an answer. So now we know that Egwene and Elayne are both 18, and since it’s been about two years they were 16-ish in The Eye of the World. Rand, I think, is a year or two older than Egwene, so he’s like 20 now. Thanks Tylin, for asking!
I absolutely loved the scene between Elayne, Nynaeve, and Queen Tylin—it’s everything I’ve been wanting from the series lately. The only thing that would have been better is a heart-to-heart where Rand and Egwene tell each other everything. I’ve just been so hungry for someone, at some point, to realize that telling the truth and trusting the person you’re talking to can be the right move sometimes, even in this world. And I think that the whole exchange really illustrates a change that is coming with the new generation of Aes Sedai, led by Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve.
The Aes Sedai cultivate a mystique of omnipotency and infallibility in order to maintain control over other world powers—and everyone really. And there have been an increasing number of examples in the series showing how that mystique often backfires on them. As someone who was raised to rule a kingdom, Elayne has a unique perspective as an Aes Sedai—she has empathy for what it’s like to be a ruler faced with Aes Sedai secrecy and manipulation, as well as a higher respect for the sovereignty those rulers should possess. She says as much to Nynaeve at the end of Chapter 48—that she remembers how her mother felt, and knows how she would feel.
Nynaeve, meanwhile, brings her customary bluntness to bear in this section, and the way everything plays out proves that Nynaeve’s brusque nature isn’t always a bad thing. She lets her temper make decisions for her, which isn’t great, and she needs to learn more self control, but the impulse to cut through to the heart of the matter serves her well, and I think the new generation of Aes Sedai could do with some of that. Also, someone in an early chapter mused that Nynaeve would be right at home in Ebou Dar, and at least in this way, they were right.
Egwene has a fair amount of directness—and Two Rivers stubbornness—as well, though she’s got a lot more self control than Nynaeve. She’s already shown an ability to play Daes Dae’mar (or whatever the Aes Sedai call their version of it) quite well, but she clearly doesn’t care for it, and I don’t think she’ll have any compunction around choosing a more open and honest way whenever possible. Combined, the three are bringing a very different perspective to the ranks of the Aes Sedai… even if none of them are really accepted yet.
It was interesting to see the divide between Elayne and Nynaeve and the older Aes Sedai through Mat’s eyes first, before getting into what Elayne and Nynaeve thought about it. When he and Thom and Juilin were talking Juilin mentioned Vandene saying “Well, if you really want to, child, of course we will,” to Nynaeve and Elayne, and that the two older Aes Sedai were quite tolerant, not seeming to notice when Elayne gave orders. From the men’s perspective, the senior Aes Sedai are treating Elayne and Nynaeve quite well, given that they have only just been raised to Aes Sedai.
And in some ways I think they’re right. Elayne and Nynaeve are newly-minted Aes Sedai, so of course outsiders would assume that they should be at the bottom of the pecking order, so to speak. Mat and the guys don’t know that a woman’s channeling ability plays a huge part in where she lands on the Aes Sedai hierarchy—and for that matter, they probably have no idea about the relative strength of most of the Aes Sedai.
Of course, age and experience do count in the Aes Sedai hierarchy, and I am sure that Elayne and Nynaeve expect a lot more autonomy and authority than they are necessarily due just because they are strong in the One Power. For that matter, where does Nynaeve’s strength even place her, given that she still has her block? It’s kind of wild, when you think about it, that Egwene made someone who can’t channel at will a full sister. Of course I’m all for it because I love her and she’s a protagonist, but I can see why some of the other Aes Sedai would be miffed.
On the other hand, Vandene’s use of the word “child” shows that she’s not thinking of Elayne and Nynaeve as subordinate Aes Sedai but as Accepted, as does the way Elayne and Nynaeve are excluded from the official meeting with Queen Tylin and from the plan to search for the bowl and the “runaways.” (I assume that Vandene and Adeleas were not referring to runaway novices and Accepted, but rather to other Aes Sedai who may have fled the White Tower and not yet found their way to Salidar. I could be wrong about that, though.)
I’m not particularly inclined to give Adeleas and Vandene the benefit of the doubt either, after learning that they are the ones who have been channeling at Mat the whole trip. I appreciated that Elayne disapproved of Adeleas and Vandene testing the ter’angreal all the time, but I wasn’t sure if that was out of respect to Mat so much as because Elayne feels proprietary over ter’angreal, since she is the only one who is fully capable of understanding how they work and of making them. Either way I suppose it doesn’t make that much difference—Elayne and Nynaeve are unhappy with how they are being treated by the other Aes Sedai and happy to have the chance to go their own way and leave Adeleas and Vandene behind, but they are still committed to the unity of the Aes Sedai, and wouldn’t want to show division to those outside the ranks of the Little Tower.
In any case, Merilille and the others choosing to exclude Nynaeve and Elayne seems to have backfired, since it led to Tylin having a private conversation with them. I am curious as to what they told Tylin about Aviendha—Aes Sedai would never imply that someone was Aes Sedai if she was not, but even if they had suggested that she was a novice or novice candidate that would have been clear enough. Were they trying to obscure who or what Aviendha was for some reason? Or did Tylin merely know how many women had arrived in their party? But if that was the case, she would have assumed that Birgitte was also Aes Sedai.
Anyway, I really like Tylin, and the culture of Ebou Dar is fascinating—the whole aside where Nynaeve observes Tylin’s outfit and the significance of the adornment on her marriage dagger was a really cool detail. Tylin’s strong and straightforward nature was appealing, and it was refreshing to see a ruler talk about the changes that have been wrought by the coming of the Dragon Reborn in such a practical way. And as a reader, I’m always pleased to be reminded of the context in which these characters are operating. Because most of our main heroes are coming into worlds that are outside their element, because most of them are agents of change, it’s easy to forget that for most of the other characters, the established order of their lives—of the world itself—is changing in rapid, unpredictable, and often unpleasant ways. I had a lot of empathy for Tylin, and she reminded me of Berelain in the way that she is a ruler beset on all sides by stronger powers, and the practical humility that has to be part of such a person’s identity, even though they are also nobility and royalty. Tylin’s situation also reminds me of Morgase’s predicament, and how she considered allowing the Whitecloaks to gain some power in Andor rather than let Andor stay in Rand’s hands.
In any case, she is clearly on Elayne and Nynaeve’s side now, over the other Aes Sedai, which will probably be useful in the hunt for the bowl even given Tylin’s relative lack of power in the area where the bowl appears to be hidden. But that doesn’t at all mean that things are going to go smoothly. After all, there’s still the dice rolling in Mat’s head to worry about. I wonder if his going to the Wandering Woman instead of staying with Elayne at the palace is going to turn out to be a helpful thing or a problem. Only time, and pages, will tell.
Next week we are back with Rand for chapters 49 and 50. More political machinations, a showdown between Dragon and Aes Sedai, and the return of an old trick from The Eye of the World. I am looking forward to it. See you then!
Sylas K Barrett likes the idea of a custom in which it is expected, and therefore welcome and protected, to speak with complete honesty. He is also a fan of the idea of a marriage dagger, though maybe not the killing that seems to go with it. Ceremonial marriage daggers would be nice, though. Let’s make that a thing.
Tylin also reminds me of Berelain in that she’s a sexual assaulter/serial rapist so…she’s got that going for her.
(But seriously, one of the things that sticks in my craw is that Jordan’s attempt to create/draw strong, sexually confident women is to just have them…stomp all over boundaries and it’s not a good look imo). Tylin isn’t QUITE as bad because there IS a bit of context/subtext in terms of what is going on there, whereas Berelain is being flat out petty and malicious, but it’s also a kind of painful part to read for me. Although I also don’t think she deserves her end :(
And oh yeah, Elayne just blithely assuming things will be okay, that’s a thing :)
The other observations are pretty spot on about the perspective our new Aes Sedai bring, though and it’s refreshing to see people talk for once.
Oh, Sylas. My sweet summer child.
Sylas, from this point forward, I suggest avoiding the comments (if you aren’t already) for spoilers. This book creates some strong feelings, and I don’t know if everyone will be able to hold back as much as they should.
I’m even tempted to talk about my feelings, but no, too much chance of spoiling some big plot points for you.
@3 Sylas has been avoiding the comments section on this blog for a few years now, so discussion is safe.
@@.-@ Whew! I hoped so, but the closer we get to the end of this book the more I started worrying about it. :D Thank you!
I was curious about Sylas’ assertion that it’s been two years since the start of the story. I think the gang gets to Ebou Dar in the late fall of 999. That puts them about 20 months or so from Winternight 998. I thought it was a much shorter timeframe than that, though I guess LoC is where the timeframe really begins to compress.
This could be a feature not a bug? Both descriptions can/are made of many male characters, and if he’s doing the whole gender swap thing that could be intentional? I think Min fits more into a healthy version of strong/sexually confident.
@1: While I too find Berlain’s behavior towards Perrin contemptable, referring to her as a sexual assaulter/serial rapist is perhaps a bit excessive. She’s a Mean Girl Supreme with an instinct for pressing Faile’s buttons for sure. But rapist is overkill. As for Lwaxanna Tylin, keep in mind that, during her reread, Leigh Butler admitted that she liked Tylin in this chapter when she first read it. So we really shouldn’t be too hard on Sylas for not recognizing what is to come.
@6 – Don’t forget, the readers lost several months of in-world time by following Rand through his flicker journey to Falme.
“Lean back on your knife” is a really weird expression. It sounds uncomfortable if the knife is sheathed, and terribly dangerous if it’s not.
Is that because she’s a protagonist or that the POV is from Rand, who we know is smitten with her? Her actions of jumping in his lap and kissing him against his protestations come off a bit sexual assaulty, don’t they?
It’s a bit of a special case since she has magic visions that tell her that he’s gonna/already does love her but still not cool, right?
@8 – yes, the ‘rapist’ part specifically is for Tylin. I do think Berelain qualifies as sexual harassment though, given that she constantly tries to create this impression that she is sleeping with Perrin (in part to undermine his own authority) and just blaaaaah not to mention constantly trying to make it happen despite his repeated nos.
An oh yeah, I don’t blame Sylas at all :) Other than that Tylin IS good (which I’m sure is why even Mat is so conflicted about it).
Even Berelain can be said to have a certain amount of savviness/practicality in order to remain the head of her country, but I still don’t think it makes up for how awful she acts.
It’s a good catch, and one that I never thought of, to note that Adeleas and Vandene are actually treating Elayne and Nynaeve rather well, all things considered. Nynaeve in particular has barely any right to call herself Aes Sedai, given her complete inability to channel.
As always, the Supergirls assume they’re owed something by the world because they didn’t spend the time in the Tower learning the proper forms and hierarchy. Which will be a mixed bag, I suppose.
@13 Which only makes readers suspend disbelief when they all fall in line after little “talk” from Elayne and Nynaeve, and become good little soldiers listening to their every word regardless of how nonsensical it is.
#10 it wouldn’t be comfortable, but in a culture where knife duels breakout at the blink of an eye, leaning back on your knife so you couldn’t draw it at any insult does make sense as a way to say speak freely.
“I think I’m really going to enjoy the visit to Ebou Dar…”
Oh my…
And when has Elayne ever heeded good advice or warnings? Or learned anything from a situation going sideways?
(A certain perceived invulnerability because of pregnancy comes to mind…)
@@@@@ 14 – Yes, I agree, there are a lot of issues surrounding how the Aes Sedai are portrayed and how they act. It becomes WAY more apparent in Egwene’s story, but the way the Aes Sedai act in general tends to break the worldbuilding for me in a lot of places. Some of it is obviously, and effectively, intentional – as our protagonists go from country bumpkins to among the most powerful people of the Age, their perspective on these mysterious authority figures changes. That is as it should be.
But for the most part, the Aes Sedai are shown to be arrogant, incompetent boobs whenever the story demands it. Which… these are women with decades if not centuries of experience, self-confidence, and some measure of wisdom. The fact that they all seem to make asses of themselves just to get rid of an obstacle for Our Heroes, or to make the Supergirls in particular seem intelligent or clever by comparison, is…. well, disappointing. A small amount of it is fine, because everyone acts like an idiot, but it becomes very clear very quickly that RJ didn’t have a great idea of how to level up Egwene in particular. Elayne and Nynaeve’s struggles and obstacles are well handled – Elayne is gaining the confidence to follow her mother on the throne, to balance her roles as Aes Sedai and as Queen, to navigate and master the political dimension of Daes Dae’mar. Nynaeve’s is to break her block, and to gain both the confidence and the control of herself necessary to help Rand without losing herself and her values in the process.
Egwene’s story is supposed to be about becoming the embodiment of Aes Sedai and mastering and fixing the issues in the Tower, but… there is no logical progression or reason for her to achieve that, and the only way she can get there is by making sure that every character with whom she has an adversarial relationship acts like a complete moron 99% of the time so that Egwene can triumph. Whether that is hundreds of Aes Sedai (master manipulators) failing to realize she’s playing them, or people with eidetic memories forgetting to remember that just long enough for Egwene to get her way, or random characters deciding “hey, I’m going to vote for a motion I haven’t even heard about yet!” the authorial thumb is firmly on the scale.
And this is where a lot of that starts.
@17 Completely agree… I think that’s a big part of why Egwene is so polarising. Contrivances and conveniences seem to guide her growth from here on out more so than for any of the Taveren, And while for them, it’s usually plot points coming together or things that could go either way falling in their favour…. for her it requires a lot of active dumbing down of those adversarial to her, and even characters seeming to go against their nature.
This happens to a lesser extent with Elayne at times as well, but even then he backstory makes it more palatable.
Elayne is very different from Egwene and Nynaeve (and all other main characters, really) when it comes to keeping secrets. She really dislikes it even when there is a good reason for it and shares info much more readily than any of the EF5, Moiraine or any other Aes Sedai. Nynaeve may be blunt when it comes to insulting people, but she tells very little to anyone not named Elayne or Egwene and hides some important stuff even from them. And of course, she barely ever told Thom and Juilin anything. Or any man, really. Elayne has several very close confidants she told pretty much anything (Egwene, Nynaeve, Avi, Birgitte) and scenes like the one here where is completely honest to someone she had just met just don’t happen for the other main character. Elayne also actually shares important info with people from the opposite gender sometimes, which in this series is extremely rare.
If Adeleas and Vandene accept Egwene as their Amyrlin, which they apparently do, they should have accepted that Elayne and Nynaeve are real Aes Sedai and ranked above them right away. The Amyrlin has the authority to raise whoever she wants. They weren’t generous with them, they were condescending. Yes, experience matters in the Aes Sedai ranking, but not nearly enough to make up the vast gap in strength in the power.
@@@@@ 19 – I think this is debatable
It is not at all clear that Egwene does has the authority to raise anyone to be Aes Sedai at all. The steps to become Aes Sedai are pretty darn clear, and at no point does it include “the Amyrlin raises them”. In many ways this can be compared with Elaida’s later demotion of Shemerin, in that the Amyrlin simply has no power or say in who is or isn’t Aes Sedai. So it’s not at all incongruous that Adeleas and Vandene may respect Egwene as their Amyrlin while simultaneously not viewing Elayne or Nynaeve as really Aes Sedai, which, after all, they aren’t. As Egwene comes to realize, the Oaths are what make someone an AS, not the ability to channel.
In fact, this point never really gets settled. Elayne asserts her authority over the others because she’s been put in charge of a mission by the Amyrlin, not on the basis of her higher theoretical standing within the AS hierarchy. And that would be a place where Egwene has some authority – if she chooses to put a goat in charge of the embassy, that’s her prerogative.
The Amyrlin has virtually unlimited power according to Tower Law:
If the Amyrlyn says they are Aes Sedai,they are Aes Sedai according to Tower Law.
And sure, Elayne brings up the fact that she was sent to Ebou Dar by the Amyrlin, unlike Merilille, who was sent there by the Hall, to assert her leadership, but she also directly stated before that
and none of the Aes Sedai at this meeting made an argument against this claim. And they were able to declare minutes later to the Kin that Elayne is an Aes Sedai.
@@@@@ 21 – This seems like an instance where the worldbuilding is meant to have you infer that no, the Amyrlin doesn’t have unlimited power. Again, we see it with Shevan. Elaida did not have the ability to demote her to Accepted. If she had ignored it, she would have been fine. Elaida did not have the ability to unilaterally declare Egwene a Darkfriend, either. So there are limits to the Amyrlin’s power, which makes sense. She can’t just order the execution of anyone she wants; the whole recurring theme of Amyrlins who were pawns of the Hall makes it clear that the Amyrlin needs to politick for support for her decrees.
Egwene herself makes it clear that the only reason she gets away with “raising” Elayne and Nynaeve is because of the very specific circumstances of when she does it, whereby the Salidar Six and the Hall won’t really be able to countermand her the minute she’s raised.
Moreover, you entirely fail to address the main point here, which is that an Aes Sedai, in the Third Age, is someone who has both taken the Three Oaths and can channel. The only exception to this is the Amyrlin, who is Aes Sedai by virtue of being raised, which is also made explicit in several places.
And as your quote itself says, tradition and custom and reality limits and circumscribes what the Amyrlin can and cannot do. It’s pretty clear that the disbanding of the Blue Ajah, for example, isn’t really enforceable and only stands because the Blues all fled for their lives.
All in all, to claim that the Amyrlin has unlimited de jure power is explicitly refuted in the text and is pretty obviously not going to be true from a common sense standpoint. That Elayne tries to use Egwene’s authority to bolster her position is understandable – it is in her interest to interpret Egwene’s power as liberally as possible in this case.
Jasfer Anan @6:
Per http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm, the group arrives in Ebou Dar on December 4, 999, and the first chapter of TEotW occurs on March 23, 998. So 20 months and 11 days. :-)
andrewrm @20:
But Merilille later accepts Elayne as her superior explicitly due to strength, and only secondarily as having been placed above them:
Once the other Aes Sedai accept them as validly raised, the AS training takes over and deference is reflexive. This (and them being able to state that Elayne and Nynaeve actually are AS) shows that whatever the law actually is, these AS at least believe that Egwene has the right to raise them by fiat.
I recall the books being pretty clear that de jure power and actual power are very separate things. So the Amyrlin theoretically be allowed to do anything but being much more limited in practice fits fairly well.
My response to the description of Ebou Dar: “Nice albedo you’ve got there. Very sensible.”
“Oh hey marriage knife language. Like flower language but more stabby.” — Neuxue
@@@@@ 23 – The operative part of your argument, in my mind, is in bold below
The question was never whether they were stronger, but whether they were actual Aes Sedai. I think there is a strong argument to be made that they’re not. It’s only through their own force of will that they impose that belief on Merilille et al. Once that is accepted then reflexes kick in, as you say…. though it’s worth noting that Elayne herself realizes that her position is precarious, and that she only gains this deference by yielding to the undeniable reality that her own position is tenuous. She says that if she tries to impose a penance, which she legally has every right to do, the position she’s fought for will collapse. In other words, the deference may be reflexive but it isn’t unthinking, and Elayne attains and cements her position only by judicious use of restraint.
And to the larger point, it’s made quite explicit that none of the Salidar Aes Sedai approve of Egwene’s raising of Accepted without the tests or the Oath Rod. Faolain and Theodrin, who don’t have the plot armor that Nynaeve and Elayne do, end up being little more than Accepted again within weeks, which is probably the best indicator of Egwene’s real power here; as in, she has no power to enforce her edicts among the rebel Aes Sedai themselves; Elayne and Nynaeve achieve their status in large part on their own merits. Even when she raises them, the Salidar Six pretty much straight up say that they only reason they don’t fight her on it is to not make a farce of raising her in the first place. The concept that the Amyrlin Seat is above the law is absurd on it’s face and explicitly refuted on a few occasions. It’s an incredibly minor piece of worldbuilding that I wouldn’t be surprised either slipped RJs mind, or wasn’t in his notes so Sanderson flubbed it a bit.
I think we need to differentiate between Tower law on the one hand and Aes Sedai customs and traditions on the other. The quote I gave above is pretty clear that de jure Amyrlin’s power is almost unlimited. But for the Aes Sedai customs and traditions are extremely important and they usually obey them as much if not more as they do Tower law without even thinking about it consciously. So they accept Elayne and Nynaeve as technically Aes Sedai since they have been lawfully raised but don’t treat them as real Aes Sedai because customs and traditions say real Aes Sedai should have passed the test and sworn the oaths. Once Elayne forces Merillile and company to confront the reality that the law is on Elayne and Nynaeve’s side by threatening to call them to judgement otherwise, they give in and grudgingly accept them as real Aes Sedai. Elayne and Nynaeve’s huge advantage in strength in the power also helped them become accepted as real Aes Sedai.
The quote I gave above is pretty clear that de jure Amyrlin’s power is almost unlimited.
Sure. But how do you square that with the fact that when Egwene is accused of being a Darkfriend, it is made explicit that Elaida does not have the power to make that stick without a trial? That’s her power, legally circumscribed.
The quote I gave above is pretty clear that de jure Amyrlin’s power is almost unlimited.
I’m see a lot of “proving” and “requiring” in there, which makes a mockery of the concept that the power of the Amyrlin is unlimited. This means it’s either a situation where RJ/BS lost control of their own worldbuilding (which is certainly possible), or that we’re not supposed to take Egwene’s statement that the Amyrlin’s power is unlimited at face value. Perhaps it’s meant to say that the Amyrlin can do anything not otherwise laid down by Tower law, sort of an Originalist reading of the Amyrlin’s power, but it’s made quite explicit that there are certain procedures in place that limit what an Amyrlin can unilaterally decree – ergo, her power is not unlimited, de factor or de jure.
Which honestly is the more intelligent, common sense system. Or perhaps the Amyrlin’s power is unlimited after a Declaration of War (except for the one caveat you mention) as long as it pertains to the war. This reading also makes sense in context of everything else we hear, and also has the appeal of being common-sensical, as we see Egwene struggle to impose her authority or tie issues to the wider war, for which she gets unilateral power. Chalk it up to an unreliable narrator or an unreliable author, but there is plenty of evidence suggesting that an Amyrlin’s power is legally limited by far more than that one proscription
Part of the difference between Elayne and Nynaeve and Faolain and Theodrin is that they only have to convince a few of the older AS that they aren’t accepted any more rather than hundreds, they have been out in the field not stuck in Salidar and used to acting independently rather than showing deference and have the confidence to assert themselves, even beyond the strength, friendship with Egwene and princess/wisdom authority F & T have a much heavier weight to shift to change their situation and possibly less confidence to do so
@23: That timeline seems to be off, because “Bel Tine” is the Randland analogy for Beltane, which takes place on May 1. In support, we get the numerous references to the unseasonable cold/cool weather – which, in a continental climate zone, would NOT be remarkable in late March (think Chicago). I’ve always assumed that the first chapter of TEOTW takes place on the Randland equivalent of April 30.
@@@@@ 23. And the other 8 books take like 6 months…
I never had a problem with the Aes Sedai “government.” I have a lot of problems with the AS themselves, but in the real world, much of the day-to-day operation of government relies on vague regulations and institutional memory. A certain thing gets done because that’s the way it’s always been done. No one really questions it or thinks much about it until there is a major problem, and then a new way of handling that issue is begun. And the new way will gradually become the old way. Much int the same way that a lot of the White Tower rules probably made perfect sense during the Trolloc Wars, but very little sense during the… what is the accepted historical term for the pre-Last Battle period? Breaking Part II, Electric Randaloo?
@28 The quoted passage doesn’t say that Elaida can’t order Egwene’s execution just that she can’t prove she is a darkfriend. That the Amyrlin can’t make something true by speaking doesn’t mean her power is limited. Especially since Elaida’s goal is presumably to convince people Egwene is a darkfriend, which isn’t a matter of law.
It’s made very clear in the books, both on the page and with reference to historical Amyrlins that their power is primarily limited by what they can make the Hall and the rest of the Aes Sedai go along with. The Amyrlin may be within her authority to decree that the entire Hall should be stilled and put to the question but it’s meaningless if everyone says “that’s nice dear” and locks her in her rooms.
Baltezaar @30: Hmmm…fair point. There’s a line early in Ch. 1 of TEotW that says something along the lines of “Spring should have arrived a month ago”, and I can’t imagine a climate with snow where spring normally arrives in late February.
On the other hand, the author was fairly meticulous in lining up the timing clues, so I’m not sure where the disconnect is.
Edit: One thing to keep in mind is that a huge part of the timing of the events on the website is based on phases of the moon, so it would be quite possible to get off by an integer number of lunar months. (For example, a difference of one lunar month would put it in the ballpark of your April 30 figure.) I haven’t gone through to see if there are any definitive timepoints that can usefully be worked forward or backward, but that might be a way to resolve this.
@30 Bel Tine takes place the day after “Winternight”. Which sounds more like an equinox festival to mark the end of winter, not something at the end of April. And IIRC fandom has always put it in March, which makes me think there’s Word of God on that.
But, otoh, looking just at the book, there’s no doubt RJ fixed tEotW to a lunar cycle, since Winternight is also a full moon, so in theory Winternight could be the First Full Moon after spring equinox and therefore be as much as a month afterward.
@@@@@ 32 – I’m sorry but I have to disagree. Lets take all the ways in that scene in which Elaida clearly demonstrates that her power is not unlimited.
First off, she beats Egwene with the Power, which one of the attending Sitters tells her is against Tower Law. So, obviously, the Amyrlin does not have the right to use the Power to beat initiates of the Tower, or else it wouldn’t be worth mentioning in the first place.
The way she attempts to wriggle out of punishment for that is by claiming Egwene is a Darkfriend. But she cannot just allege that either, it’s made explicit that to prove that, she needs proof, and to let Egwene speak in her own defense. The concept of a right to speak in your own defense makes it pretty darn clear that there is some legal hurdle, some evidentiary hurdle, that Elaida must meet to prove Egwene is a Darkfriend.
Third, I’d argue there is little evidence to suggest that Elaida can simply order someone’s execution. She had a chance with Egwene specifically because she was rebel Amyrlin, which is a capital punishment-worthy offense, but Egwene is not vulnerable to execution merely because the Amyrlin wants it.
See, this I disagree with as well. What is made clear is that historical Amyrlins got a lot further in expanding the scope of their power if they could manipulate the Hall. It also brings up a question of how you’re defining “legal”. The example you use isn’t actual authority, it just means she has the right to free speech. If compliance isn’t mandatory, then that isn’t a legal power or right. If I announce tomorrow that I want everyone to pay me $100, and no one does, that doesn’t mean I was entitled to it in the first place and everyone just ignored my legal orders.
Lets say Elaida does announce she wants to still all the Sitters. They ignore her and go about their day. If she shows up and starts severing people from the Source, what do you think the reaction is? Certainly not “oh well, I guess Elaida decided to exercise her legal rights.” They’re going to depose her in five seconds flat, still her, and execute her. In other words, Elaida certainly does not have the power to order mass executions. Her power is limited. If your argument is that she has the power to do whatever she can get others to agree to, then sure – everyone’s power is unlimited. You’ve now broadened the definition of legality to encompass any action at all, which means describing the Amyrlin’s power as “unlimited” is a meaningless statement.
The canonical text is clear that there are certain things that Tower Law dictates Elaida cannot do above and beyond putting herself in danger (e.g. using the Power against an initiate, or convicting someone of being a Darkfriend without a hearing). Which means that when Egwene thought that to herself, she was wrong or not in possession of all the relevant facts, which makes sense. Why would Egwene, a non-psychopath, think in her internal narration that the Amyrlin has the right to murder anyone who looks at her sideways? It would be assumed that things that egregious, that are obviously taboo for anyone, wouldn’t be allowed.
@35, @32 An alternative interpretation: even if the Amyrlins have mostly unlimited power, they are still limited by what is allowed by law for all AS. Things like using the power to punish someone are generally prohibited for ALL AS, and the Amyrlin is, by definition, AS (that’s how Egwene could get there!), so she would still be limited by that. Same goes for trial, there must be a general law for that as well.
I interpret the affirmation that Egwene makes as to limits imposed on the Amyrlin as additional limits besides those that apply to all AS.
Any ruler of any organization can do whatever he can get away with whitout being stoped by the rest of the organization. Any ruler or law has only as much power as those that are supposed to follow them are willing to give them. This willingness can be achieved by fear, manipulation, charisma, etc (it can also be achieved by sheer stupidity by part of the ruled). An example in the books was when Elaida made an Aes Sedai back into an Accepted (dont remember her name right now). It is explained that she only got away with it because said Aes Sedai accepted (very stupidly) the punishment as valid. This shows that the only power that matters is de facto. De jure power serves only as a way to make de facto power more legitimate and make it easier for the ruler to justify his decitions. People forget sometimes that the only way someone can decide for them is when they allow it. To follow rules and tradition is a choice, not an obligation.
@@@@@ 37 – No. This isn't true, and this is an awful and pernicious way of looking at the world. Yes, Elaida got away with demoting Shemerin, but it was still not a legal action. Shemerin was not required to obey it – the fact that she does is irrelevant to the legality of the decree in the first place. As I said, if you define “legality” as “what I can get away with” then you undermine the entire concept of rule of law. I could probably get away with shoplifting at a supermarket, but making it out the door with a wheel of cheese that I didn't pay for doesn't somehow retroactively make my theft legal. As the various Aes Sedai who encounter her make clear, Shemerin can walk back into the Tower at any time, act as Aes Sedai, and have that be accepted.
Part of the whole arc of Elaida's story, or her impact on the story, is the way in which she erodes Tower law in the pursuit of an Imperial Amyrlincy, one not subject to any outside check or balance. As Egwene makes explicit later on, the role of the Hall is the act as a counter to the Amyrlin when she's off the rails, which means that the Hall has explicit power to restrain a rogue Amyrlin. So yes, Elaida does manage in getting away with some thoroughly illegal shit, because no one stands up to her, but that does not mean she had the right to do it in the first place. Someone who literally gets away with murder isn't pardoned for it merely because they aren't caught; in the eyes of the law, they're a murderer and subject to prosecution accordingly.
@38 – 37 isn’t defining legality as what you can get away with, they’re saying legality doesn’t matter if no-one’s going to hold you to account. Which is basically true. If there’s a law on the books that everyone just ignores and no-one enforces, it might as well not exist. If someone constantly breaks the law and is never held to account, then the fact that what they’re doing is illegal doesn’t really matter. If everyone ignores the law, then de jure power is just a polite fiction, and de facto power reigns supreme.
I don’t suppose the encyclopedia spelled anything out? Unreliable narrators make textual analysis difficult.
It does seem clear that the Amyrlin’s legal authority is often greater than that allowed to her by the Hall, that codified legal constraints matter less than custom and tradition. That gray area is what Egwene exploits since the little Hall is divided and insecure. It seems like Tar Valon doesn’t even have the equivalent of the UK’s unwritten constitution, so focusing on legalism is not a good way to analyze how it’s power structures work.
@39 Many thanks. You summarised it better than I. English is not my first language and sometimes people misunderstand my meaning
@38 As 39 explained, I am not saying that murdering is legal i you don´t get caught. I am saying that if the one who murdered someone doesnt get caught, the law wont magically make them pay. And if they face no consequence for breaking the law, it is as if the law did not exist for them. They will still live their life normally. Or if everyone knows who the murderer is but, by example, they are the ruler of the most powerfull country, both economically and millitary, and has the complete and unconditional loyalty of their countrys people. How is anyone going to try to make that person pay? My conclusion is that Law is irrelevant if it cant be enforced.
We see this in the books. Not only with Elaida, but with the White Tower in itself. They claimed ownership of all objects of power. Did it make all of them just appear magically on the Tower? No. Why didn´t they make Tear surrender all of theirs? Because they knew they would not be able to get away with it without consequence. What right did the Aes Sedai have to make this claim? None, but they knew they coud get away with it in many countries because of the fear and respect they inspired.
Except “the law won’t magically make them pay” isn’t the same as “legal”!!! This is the part that matters. Elaida clearly cannot go around murdering people. I cannot imagine a world in which that would be the case. Likewise, she also can’t go around demoting Aes Sedai. These are examples so obvious that of course they wouldn’t be spelled out, which is the entire point. When Egwene ruminates on the power an Amyrlin has, and how the only real proscription is on putting herself in harm’s way, this has to be read in the context of “sane people created Tower Law”.
We have a ton of examples of ways in which the Amyrlin cannot legally do TONS of stuff. It isn’t legal for the Amyrlin to be a Darkfriend, I would assume. She is bound by the same laws as all other Aes Sedai are, presumably, up to and including the Three Oaths, it is just not necessary to spell that out because it’s assumed.
Like…. nowhere in the US Constitution does it say “you can’t murder people” and yet even the most hardcore Originalist isn’t going to defend the idea that the US should allow murder because it’s not spelled out. Likewise, the Amyrlin doesn’t get to order the murder of whoever she wants, because that’s obviously not How Shit Works.
Once you accept that Egwene is straight up wrong, or rather, is thinking about Tower Law in a very specific context, the entire concept of what the Amyrlin can and cannot do begins to make a lot more sense. If you are taking a literal interpretation of Egwene’s thoughts in that moment, then the Amyrlin can swear to the Dark One, mass murder the Hall of the Tower (all she has to do is convince herself they are Darkfriends to skirt the Oaths) and there is nothing that can be done.