Two packed chapters await us this week in the third installment of the Reading of The Great Hunt. We begin to see the machinations of Tar Valon, and how they are not nearly as united as the people outside the Tower might assume, learn more about politics, and witness several characters sneaking off on their own agendas.
I am very excited to see chapters from Moiraine! It’s different to see part of this story from the perspective from the character who, at least so far, seems to have the most knowledge of what is going on. It was also interesting to watch Jordan manipulate his close third person narration in order to show us Moiraine’s thoughts without giving too much away, and it was very interesting to discover that she and the Amyrlin have a secret plan that no one knows about.
Speaking of the Amyrlin, it took me awhile to make sense of the fact that the office is called the Amyrlin Seat, and that the woman who holds the office is also called the Amyrlin Seat. Calling her the Amyrlin makes sense, but it seems weird to call a person “seat.” I suppose it would be like calling a King or Queen “the throne,” and it does put the focus more on the office than it does upon the person. So perhaps that’s the point; to recognize the office and its duties rather than elevate the person holding it.
In her rooms, Moiraine is dressing in her formal Aes Sedai shawl, which bears the white teardrop emblem of the Flame of Tar Valon and fringe denoting the color of the wearer’s Ajah; blue in Moiraine’s case. She is worried and angry, uncertain why the Amyrlin would have come all this way and concerned about who else she might have brought, and what effect that might have on Moiraine’s plans. There is a knock at the door, and after composing herself and making sure her expresion doesn’t give her away, Moiraine greets two other Aes Sedai, Anaiya, also a Blue Ajah, and Liandrin, who wears Red. Anaiya is happy to see Moiraine, but Liandrin is short with her and complains that Moiraine’s room is warded against their entrance. Moiraine explains smoothly that she didn’t want Shinarian servants messing with her things, and since there were no other Aes Sedai around she didn’t need to think about making an exception for her “sisters.”
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The Great Hunt
Moiraine has been summoned by the Amyrlin Seat and the three women proceed down the corridors of the women’s apartments, curtsied at by servants as they go. They discuss the fact that three more False Dragons have appeared, and although Liandrin is dismissive, Moiriane reminds her of the destruction that such men can wreck. Aes Sedai died stopping Logain, after all. They stop to talk to the Lady Amalisa, greeting her warmly and encouraging more familiarity than Amalisa intends to treat them with. She invites the three Aes Sedai to visit her gardens, and Moiriane is surprised when Liandrin—who is never very friendly with other Aes Sedai, let alone those outside the White Tower—accepts, Moiraine wonders what the red sister is up to.
As they continue on, Anaiya keeps telling Moiraine the news, how the unrest in Caemlyn has settled with the arrival of spring and how Elayne and Gawyn have arrived safely in Tar Valon, despite having been followed by the Children of the Light for the duration of their journey. They discuss the long tradition of sending the future queens of Andor to study at the White Tower, and how much power Elayne has. Moiraine thinks about how Elayne’s gifts must be kept a secret, that people are already suspicious of Morgause for being trained in and connected to Tar Valon, and that if the people knew Elayne will be a full Aes Sedai they would never accept her. Anaiya also mentions that he Hunt for the Horn has been called in Illian, and that both the Sea Folk and the Aiel are restless, and that there are rumors of fighting on Almoth Plain. When Moiraine tries to theorize on that, Liandrin snaps at her and reminds her that the Amyrlin is waiting.
Moiraine observes the Aes Sedai who accompanied the Amyrlin to Fal Dara; Brown Sisters who are concerned with seeking knowledge, as well as women in Yellow, White, and Green. Moiriane says hello to them, but they don’t reply back, and she feels her anxiety heighten. She is greeted by Leane, the Keeper of the Chronicles, who escorts her in to see the Amyrlin.
Moiraine greets the Amyrlin, Siuan Sanche, formally, calling her Mother and being called Daughter in return. She is startled to see that the Amyrlin already has the gold cube that Moiraine and her companions recovered from the bottom of the Eye of the World, despite the fact that Moiraine had left it under the protection of Lord Aglemar. The Amyrlin tells Moiraine of how they summoned wind and tied to travel faster to Fal Dara, no doubt flooding crops and leaving destruction and strange weather in their wake. She says that that Elayne and Elida, the Aes Sedai advisor to Queen Morgause, are in Tar Valon, and that the Red Ajah are very proud and excited to have been the Ajah who discovered Elayne, who may be the most powerful Aes Sedai in a thousand years. This gains the Red Ajah much status and influence, even if Elayne does not choose Red for her Ajah when the time comes.
Moiraine answers by telling the Amyrlin about Egwene and Nynaeve. She compares Egwene’s abilities as equal to Elayne’s own, and suggests that with proper training, Nyneave’s power will outshine them both. But she is surprised that the Amyrlin seems unaffected by this news; the numbers and strength of the Aes Sedai have been long dwindling, to find three girls with such power in so short a time is a big deal. The Amyrlin instead focuses on the news she received from Elaida, that Moiriane is meddling with a young man who is ta’veren, that Elida encountered him in Caemlyn but by the time she discovered the inn where he was staying, Moiraine had “spirited him away.” Elida said that the boy was more dangerous than Artur Hawkwing, and because she has the ability to Foretell, those words carried a lot of weight. Two Green sisters even proposed that Moiraine be sent away on a retreat as punishment, a fact that is very surprising given the long alliance between the Green and Blue Ajahs, and the suggestion from the Greens that the Red Ajahs be responsible for Moiriane’s care during that time. Even more shocking is the way that they spoke to the Amyrlin, debating the presence of other Blue Ajah on the voyage, since Leane is of the blue and the Amyrlin was once blue, and even suggesting that she might not be allowed to go at all. This is a shocking thing, since the Amyrlin is understood by all to be of no Ajah, and to speak for all Aes Sedai and all Ajah. Things are changing.
The Amyrlin then sends Leane away, an unusual move, but the Keeper complies. The Amyrlin weaves a ward around the room to protect against eavesdropping, and then drops all the formality and embraces Moiraine, remembering their time together as novices and saying how good it is to have someone who still remembers who she was before she became the Amyrlin Seat. But then things turn serious again.
“Moiraine, if anyone, even Leane, discovers what we plan, we will both be stilled. And I can’t say they would be wrong to do it.”
Just hearing the word is enough to make Moiraine shiver, thinking of what it would be like to have her ability to touch saidar striped from her. Still, she reminds the Amyrlin that what they are doing is what they know must be done, what they have known must be done for twenty years, what the Pattern demands of them, and the Amyrlin agrees, although she muses on the danger of being stripped of her office, and points out that things would be easier if Moiraine had stuck to their original plan, to find the boy, bring him to Tar Valon, keep him safe and guide him.
“Nearly twenty years of planning and searching, and you toss all our plans practically in the Dark One’s face. Are you mad?”
Now that she had stirred life in the other woman, Moiraine returned to outward calm, herself. Calm, but firm insistence, too. “The Pattern pays no heed to human plans, Siuan. With all our scheming, we forgot what we were dealing with. Ta’veren. Elaida is wrong. Artur Paendrag Tanreall was never this strongly ta’veren. The Wheel will weave the Pattern around this young man as it wills, whatever our plans.”
The anger left Amyrlin’s face, replaced by white-faced shock. “It sounds as if you are saying we might as well give up. Do you now suggest standing aside and watching the world burn?”
“No, Siuan. Never standing aside.” Yet the world will burn, Siuan, one way or another, whatever we do. You could never see that. “But we must now realize that our plans are precarious things. We have even less control than we thought. Perhaps only a fingernail’s grip. The winds of destiny are blowing, Siuan, and we must ride them where they take us.”
Shaken, the Amyrlin takes the Horn of Valere from the gold box and reads the inscription aloud, remarking on the fact that prophecy said that it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle. She tells Moiriane that Aglemar was eager to get it out of his possession, saying the temptation to use it was too great. The Amyrlin expresses surprise that the Last Battle could be so close.
“The Karaethon Cycle.”
“Yes, Moiraine. You do not have to remind me. I’ve lived with the Prophecies of the Dragon as long as you.” The Amyrlin shook her head. “Never more than one false Dragon in a generation since the Breaking, and now three loose in the world at one time, and three more in the past two years. The Pattern demands a Dragon because the Pattern weaves toward Tarmon Gai’don.
Moiraine reminds the Amyrlin that the Pattern throws up false Dragons because it demands a real one, the Dragon, but that one he proclaims himself the creation of False Dragons will cease, and that is how they know, for example, the Logain is not the Dragon. She shows the Amyrlin the cuendillar seal, bearing the old Aes Sedai symbol sued when men and women still wielded the Power together. One of the seals on the Dark One’s prison, over which the Amyrlin was supposed to watch, although the secret the Aes Sedai keep is that no Amyrlin knows where the seals actually are. She admits that she noticed Rand in the courtyard, that seeing ta’veren is one of her gifts. To her eyes he blazed like the sun and she was filled with fear. Moiraine promises that he is the one, that he can wield the Power, and that he will stand up in front of the world as the Dragon Reborn.
Moiraine explains her new plan to the Amyrlin, how she has left Rand alone, feigning disinterest in him lest he stubbornly resist her. She plans to ask Perrin and Mat to carry the Horn to Illian, after the Aes Sedai rid him of his link to the Shadar Logoth dagger, and she suggests that Rand would be happy to get away from Aes Sedai and stay with his friends for a little longer before his fear of his power drives him from them. She will ensure their safe travel from a distance, and see to it that Illian is ready for Rand’s arrival. When the Dragon arrives carrying the Horn and proclaims himself, the people of Illian and most of the others gathered for the Hunt will be more than ready to follow him.
The Amyrlin has many more questions but Moiraine reminds her that people will be suspicious if they talk for too long, and promises to contrive another meeting at a later time. She also thinks, privately, that there are things she can’t tell even her dearest friend, and cannot risk the Amyrlin knowing that she is holding things back. They part, and Moiraine does her best to look like she has received a harsh scolding as she passes the other Aes Sedai. She can’t quite managed stunned regret, but anger looks almost as well.
The narrative shifts to Captain Geoffram Bornhald, who is riding with his men to a mystery meeting in a town at the edge of Tambor after being ordered to do so by Pedron Niall, Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light, in Amador. Captain Bornhald was not able to learn much about who he has been sent to meet or why, but he was instructed that the journey had to be completed with complete secrecy, and Bornhald is proud that he managed to move two thousand armed and mounted Children without being spotted by any innocent bystanders who would have to be killed to ensure their silence.
Bornhald is startled learn that he men he was sent to meet are Questioners, Children of the Light who use torture to extract confessions from suspected Darkfriends. But Bornhald is one of those who believes that the Questioners decide the guilt of a person before the questioning even begins, and he is displeased by it. He is invited into the village, learning that it has been “pacified” which means, Bornhald knows, that everyone living there has been killed. He is told that there are strangers on Toman Head with a great force, rumored to be monsters, or Aes Sedai, or both, and that the Children are here to bring this area under the Light. Bornhald seems to think that this means that Artur Hawkwing’s armies have returned, but the Questioners are unmoved and he is ordered to see his men settled in the camp. He thinks to himself that they are being used like stones on a board, but he has no idea who is moving them, or why.
Back in Fal Dara, Liandrin shows up unexpectedly in the Lady Amalisa’s chambers. She finds the women reading to each other from a book about courting, and she barges in and throws everyone out to speak to Amalisa alone, then tells the woman off about the dangers of falling into Shadow, even if one believes themselves to be walking in the Light. Amalisa is frightened and thrown off guard, and Liandrin presses this, reminding Amalisa that she is of the Red Ajah, one who hunts men who have been corrupted, not only those who wield the Power but any who have been corrupted, both lowborn and high. Amalisa, inferring that she might be speaking of her brother, Agelmar, throws herself to her knees in panic, pleading that it might be different. In her moment of fear and confusion, Liandrin strikes out with the One Power, exerting a subtle influence that helps bend Amalisa, unbeknownst to herself, to Liandrin’s will.
This was her own special trick from childhood, the first learned of her abilities. It had been forbidden to her as soon as the Mistress of Novices discovered it, but to Liandrin that only meant one more thing she needed to conceal from those who were jealous of her…
It was not a perfect ability; Liandrin could not force anyone to do what she wanted—though she had tried; oh, how she had tried. But she could open them wide to her arguments, make them want to believe her, want more than anything to be convinced of her rightness.
She tells Amalisa that the three boys Moiraine brought to Fal Dara are very dangerous, worse than Darkfriends, and commands her to have all her servants search the Keep for them. She learns about Padan Fain, and she tells Amalisa that the tales of the Black Ajah are true, so she must speak of this encounter to no one, even Moiraine or another Aes Sedai.
As she leaves Amalisa’s chamber, Liandrin feels as though someone is watching her, but when she sees no one, dismisses it as her imagination. But down in the dungeon, Padan Fain is waiting. The door opens, and he recognizes the figure outlined in the lamplight. His deliverer is not who he expected, but that does not matter, and he grins up at the ceiling, at something “unseen yet felt” and whispers that the battle is never over.
Unless I’m forgetting something, I think this is the first time a the narration has split perspectives within a single chapter. There’s a heck of a lot of set-up here, and the running theme of all three different sections seems to be the maneuvering of certain people into certain positions as part of the greater game. It’s most obvious with Liandrin, who I guess is probably one of those Aes Sedai that Bors noticed in the prologue. She knows a lot about Mat, Perrin, and Rand, and is hunting them with a specificity that I think suggests that she was given the command to do so, rather than out of her own curiosity or desire to undermine Moiraine, or something like that. Her attitude of superiority and status also suggest a Darkfriend’s particular perspective, wanting good people and noblewomen like Amalisa to have to kneel to her, etc. Although I’m sure they don’t have a monopoly on haughty classism in this world.
I wonder if there is an Ajah that is more likely than the others to become Black. I suppose it’s easy to be suspicious of the Red because we know that they are responsible for hunting down and gentling men with the Power. That makes them enemies of our heroes, of Thom Merrilin and Rand especially. And it suggests a bloodthirstiness, I think, through the choice of color and the willingness to do something that results in such pain, even though it is deemed necessary by all Aes Sedai. And then there is the conflict between the Red and the Blue. The reader mostly trusts Moiraine, and the suggestion that the Red Ajah want to have control over her punishment is a chilling one. Even worse is learning that women are also sometimes stripped of their power; the Aes Sedai are a dictatorship, it would seem; there are no opposing institutions presenting different rules or ideas, and even if stilling is a last resort used only on the truly bad, it does throw a bit more shadow on the already distrusted Tar Valon.
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The Ruin of Kings
I do wish the narration would just tell me the full difference in the classification of the Ajahs already; we now know the Brown is about the pursuit of knowledge, and we have some sense of the Blue’s priorities based on Moriaine’s, but the Yellow, Green, and White are still a mystery, and it makes it harder to ferret out how the White Tower works. But I suppose that reveal will continue to come, slowly, as the books progress.
And I have been given an awful lot in this section. One assumes in the first book (or at least I did) that Moiraine was acting alone when she left Tar Valon and went in search of the Dragon Reborn off in the outskirts of a town most people paid no heed to at all. Now we find out that she had an ally in her plan, a powerful one, but one who cannot move and scheme without being noticed. This revelation also throws more light on the importance of Moriaine’s decision to turn their journey aside in The Eye of the World, when she learns of Ba’alzamon’s plans to move against it. She wasn’t just taking the boys to Tar Valon because that seemed the obvious move, but because there was a specific plan to hide him there with the Amyrlin. Her choice shows, as she points out to the Amyrlin, how much effect the ta’veren presence has on events, and also, I think, just how desperate Moiraine’s plan was to begin with. There is a suggestion here that the prophesied return of the Dragon is more of a set of instructions than a prediction of what will happen with or without interference, and a more direct acknowledgement of the cost that will come with the arrival of the Dragon. It has been said or implied before in The Eye of the World that the Dragon’s coming portends doom and destruction, perhaps the end of the world itself, but it’s unclear to me exactly what that means. It’s almost put forth like a sort of end-time event, in which the world will be destroyed either way, but one way ends in the coming of evil and darkness, and the other end is in the arms of the Light. Or perhaps it just means the end of an Age, in which those who lived through it will be all or mostly destroyed but life itself will continue on. Right now it’s hard to say.
It’s also hard to say what the Amyrlin meant when she said that the Pattern demands a Dragon, and so it spits out false Dragons until the real one comes. I don’t understand how the Pattern would focus on the Dragon declaring himself, as though that is the first moment he exists, rather than the moment of his birth. Why should the Pattern create false Dragons if it has already created the real one? This raises a lot of questions for me about how the Wheel and the Pattern work.
I had suspected that Elyane had the ability to channel, although I’m not exactly sure why. Perhaps because her interest in healing seemed at odds with her destiny to become Queen, perhaps something about her insight and interest in Rand. But I wasn’t surprised to learn that she will be a powerful wielder. I was surprised to learn that Moiraine believes Nynaeve to be much more powerful than either Elyane or Egwene; I had assumed Nynaeve was just older and therefore more experienced, but this is something else. I suspect Nynaeve will always keep her focus on healing, even when she goes to Tar Valon, but I am eager to see what else she chooses to do with her remarkable gifts. No wonder Moiraine thought she was important after she tracked them to Baerlon.
Both the Amyrlin and Captain Bornhald specifically mention stones on a board; the Amyrlin in reference to Elida’s view of those who are not either Aes Sedai or a specific threat, and Bornhald in reference to his own mysterious orders. I know from others’ comments that the series goes on to be quite full of plots within plots and political intrigue, and this seems to be the start of it.
Speaking of Bornhald, that guy is all proud that he didn’t “have” to kill anyone on his way to the rendezvous but his response to learning that an entire village was slaughtered was hardly enough in my opinion. The man believes in the Children and their mission to wipe out Darkfriends enough to blindly follow orders he doesn’t like and doesn’t understand, to fall in line with Questioners, who he believes do their job incorrectly, stupidly, and maliciously, and to put aside the deaths of a whole village of innocent people in, one supposes, the pursuit of the greater good. He may be trying his best to not harm innocents, but in some ways that hypocrisy bothers me more than the other Children who just don’t really care about anyone.
Also can I just remark upon how many “nice” words the people in power have for horrible deeds. The village was “pacified,” male channelers are “gentled” and misbehaving Aes Sedai women are “stilled.” I suppose the people of this world know well the power of words; they don’t say the Dark One’s name, for example, and both nobles and Aes Sedai are well aware of how to play the game of information. Although everyone knows basically what the gentling of men actually is, no doubt the softness of saying the word makes the fact a little bit easier to swallow. Easier to look away from. At least for those in no danger of being gentled themselves.
Next week we will cover Chapters 6 and 7, in which we will see a battle and Rand face a lot of questions, and Lan giving advice, and who knows what else. I haven’t finished reading them yet. See you next week, or down in the comments!
Sylas K Barrett would very much like to know more about Liandrin’s specific speech pattern and can’t wait to see what Padan Fain gets up to next. And by that I mean he knows it’s gonna be bad.
Nice analysis, as always. Your Amrylin Seat/Amyrlin discussion was particularly thoughtful as well as amusing. You’ll learn the purposes of the Ajahs in time, but fair warning that it may take a while to learn about all of them. I also see you’ve started the game of “name the participants at the Darkfriend Social.” Happy hunting on that front.
Does anyone know what Moraine is holding back from the Amyrlin? The only things I can think of are that the forsaken are loose and that the dragon banner is found, but why would she want to hold back that info?
The narrative really tries to make us believe that Moraine is holding things back to manipulate and deceive people, but I just don’t see it. If anything Moraine is too honest with our heroes and tries to get them to take responsibility and make their own choices. Our heroes on the other hand can’t handle the truth and blames Moraine for it.
With this chapter it is like we have an unreliable narrator telling us Moraine is holding important things back from the Amyrlin when she really isn’t.
@2 Moraine thinks, “Yet the world will burn, Siuan, one way or another, whatever we do. You could never see that.” Siuan still thinks chaos can be prevented while Moraine has a more realistic view of the situation. She doesn’t share that with Siuan because she realizes that Siuan may balk at what is necessary.
adjbaker @2 – I believe the reason Moiraine is holding back from the Amyrlin is because Verin is present in the room, and she doesn’t fully trust the Brown sister at this point. In fact, she doesn’t really know WHO she can trust in the Aes Sedai ranks apart from Siuan, so she treads as carefully as possible. ETA: whoops, thanks @5!
Another great analysis, Sylas! I haven’t really commented much, as I typically lurk and find that others make comments I would have made, only they said it better so there’s no reason for me to chime in. In regards to your question about what the Amyrlin meant when she said that the Pattern demands a Dragon, and so spins out all these False Dragons until the real one appears, I always assumed that the Dragon declaring himself was an integral part of the Pattern, and the False Dragons were meant as harbingers of the Real Deal showing up. Not exactly like Prophets, but for those who know the signs, the Pattern would be twigging them to the fact something Big is going to happen.
because Verin is present in the room
@@.-@ – that meeting is a few chapters after this one.
@2 – I think most of what Moiraine is holding back is the importance of Mat and Perrin.
With regards to the Ajahs and their respective purposes, I don’t think there is any big secret about them, the ones not seen yet just haven’t been relevant at all to the plot so far. Jordan does dump a lot of info in with scene descriptions and such constantly, but his worldbuilding information like this is mostly delivered only when it makes sense for the POV character to be hearing it. So here you get a POV of Moiraine and her thoughts, but she obviously knows all about the Ajah’s so you don’t see her thinking ‘ah there are some Greens here, they specialise in such and such’. It was things like this that fuelled my first read through of WoT, where you get just enough to spark curiosity that you have to have more! I think I read the first 6 books about 3 or 4 weeks. It must be a little tough for you to have to pace yourself to match the post schedule!
@Sylas
One thing you quoted but did not comment on is the amount of time Siuan and Moiraine have been working on this secret plan.
I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
@@@@@4 Verin is not in the room
@8 tomas – yes, @5 pointed that out to me, which is why I edited it to add a Strikethrough and whited the name out as well. But thanks – I got the scenes mixed up in my mind :D
I love how much foreshadowing is in the conversation between the Amyrlin and Moraine. Sylas points out the introduction of “The Karaethon Cycle” and questions what the coming of the Dragon really means … no surprise that this will be a theme throughout the series as even Moraine and the Amyrlin seem to have different ideas about what it means. I also loved the introduction of intricate politics that are foreshadowed.
I laughed on this particular foreshadowing that I never noticed before // “no one can rally around a woman who must scrub floors and pots all day” … unless she is Egwene. // Only 10 books to go before this foreshadowing. What incredible planning.
Sylas, it’s not really that much of a spoiler to know what the Ajahs do, so if that doesn’t bother you, highlight down to see descriptions:
//
Red – Hunting down male channelers
Blue – They’re basically the diplomats of the world
Green – “The Battle Ajah.” They pride themselves on being on the front-lines in the fight against Shadowspawn
Yellow – Focused on healing with the One Power
Brown – Pursuit of historical knowledge. Described as absent-minded and not very aware of the outside world
White – Logic problems. The mathematicians of the world
Gray – Never really sure of this. Similar to Blue?
//
Austin- // Actually, if I remember correctly, the Blues are devoted to a cause, while the Grays are diplomats and negotiators. //
Great article as usual Sylas!
@10 Dies and is ded. This series is a gold mine for long buried foreshadowing.
@@@@@ 11 *further ajah spoilers only*
The Blue ajah are independents and dedicated to their own personal mission.
The Grays are the diplomats and all about politics.
@11:
Blues are political meddlers. (“Causes”, accurately translated.) Greys are the diplomats.
@12, 14, 15:
Ah, so it’s the //Blues// that are vaguely defined. I know there was one //Ajah// that was confusing.
Greys are not necessarily // diplomats //, but // negotiators //.
Splitting the comment because I have some trouble with posting:
To defend the Red: Gentling men who weeld the one power is something that may have safed the world, men get mad and mad WoMD are dangerous. So the read Ajah has a noble purpose in theory.
Spoilered part: Yes the rules let the having no contact with everyone outside the Red makes it very atractive for the dark. Of course that our first Reds are Elaida (who is a terrible person and very similar to the White Cloaks) and Liandrin (who isn’t a real Red) makes them look worse than when we would have people like Teslyn, Silviana or Pavera.
Re Liandrin: It finds the Prologue, but the question is Darkfriend or just to obvious red hering?
On the other hand (still without spoilers) we have heared (from a not so reliable source that the DF Aes Sedai are organized, so if they are good at that thing having someone black here would be a good idea.
3 is of course a good number that they have here.
Small tipp for all new readers, pay attention to some Aes Sedai intrudices here, some of them are very interesting characters.
No hunt for Bors in the WCpart?
@18:
I would argue that Elaida does not become a terrible person until after she comes under the influence of Padan Fain. She is certainly a hard, and unforgiving person, and not well-liked. But my standards for deeming someone “terrible” are a bit higher than “I don’t like them, they were mean to people I like.”
After suspicion and paranoia take root in her heart, thanks to the influence of Fain? Yes, terrible is an apt description.
20: She was part of a murder in book 4. (Siuans warder) But I don’t disagree that most of what makes her terrible comes after the Fain. For me the cake takes the planned murder of Gawyn (at last from her own prophecy an action that could doom the world). It wasn’t the only stupid action she took, that could doom the world and gave her little execpt personal glory.
But for fairness; Elaida is an unpleasant person, which as signiture Red character does let us see the RA in a worse light, than other Characters would do. This is I think somethink most readers could agree on.
The way I understand the Pattern’s generation of false Dragons is like this:
Imagine a complicated machine with a funny-shaped screw. The Dragon is the right tool to tighten the screw, but until he shows up the Pattern will just grab anything that looks kind of similar. It doesn’t help if the right tool exists if it isn’t actually fulfilling its role. Once the Dragon starts doing Dragon-y things, there is no need to fool around with not-quite-right tools.
I’m pretty sure Moiraine doesn’t want Liandrin messing with her things either, but she smoothly avoids saying that.
Unless the translation I have is wrong, no, Elida said that Rand was more dangerous than any man has been *since* Artur Hawkwing, meaning that he does not surpass Hawkwing but does surpass everyone else who has lived later than Hawkwing. Later, Moiraine (who seems to understand “dangerous” as “ta’veren”) says that Elaida is wrong because Rand is even more ta’veren than Hawkwing was.
On the topic of foreshadowing that Adjbaker (#10) brought up, another pretty clever one is Siuan’s words about going naked into the storm. Aviendha tries that, and finds that even that doesn’t let her escape the Dragon. :-)
@20 – “I would argue that Elaida does not become a terrible person until after she come under the influence of Padan Fain.”
Can’t agree with you on this one. The way Elaida brings down Siuan is terrible, and considering she is not Black and has not met Padan Fain yet makes it even worse. She does get even worse after, but to me, terrible is an accurate description even before.
@19 StefanB Re Bors – We know from the Prologue that Bors is a Whitecloak and a Questioner. We also know that he is looking forward to great work to be done in Tarabon and on Almoth Plain. So it would not be spoilerish at all, given the Bornhald section, to speculate about Bors at this point.
Re 25:
This was more about Sylas not hunting for him, after the Prologue.
I know to much about Bors to hunt for him.
I should be clear from that snippet that older Bornhold isn’t on team dark, I am whiting it out, but think Sylas got that.
Sylas: I do not know if you read the glossary before or after you finish the book. FWIIW, I always read the glossary before starting a new book. I found the glossary to be a great source of information, especially if you are introduced to a new country or culture (and the glossary has details on that country/culture). Most of the times, the glossary does not contain spoilers for the current book.
I can only think of one major spoiler the Glossary had (Spoiler in that if you read the glossary first). But that was the 2nd to last book. You have a long ways to go.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@26 StefanB Yeah, I got that. My point was that at this stage, with what was already revealed, it should have been an easy call for Sylas. My bad, I didn’t word it clearly.
Regarding the confusion about the pattern and false dragons I think @22 robertstadler has it pretty well. Hopefully there are no spoilers here I tried to make sure I didn’t but if I slipped, mods please make with doing the white text, I’m on mobile.
What do we know about the Dragon Reborn at this point? That he is Lews Theron Kinslayer reincarnated. That he is an integral requirement for the Last Battle. That he will be massively destructive force to the world.
Based on that (little as it is) we can take the handful of educated pov’s we’ve had who have recognized that the Pattern is currently weaving towards the Last Battle and gearing up for it. So there are things that need to be happening all across the world to facilitate that. Things that (in theory) are destructive and destabilizing, and (also in theory) the Dragon Reborn should be causing. However Rand hasn’t declared himself the dragon and isn’t out doing those things. The Pattern is narrating the Dragon but the Dragon hasn’t shown up for rehearsal yet. So the understudies are filling in. It matters not one whit that he is alive because he isn’t Being the Dragon Reborn yet. As far as any conflict about whether that should be possible given the way the Pattern seems to occasionally railroad folks, as Tom pointed out, stories and histories change, who knows, in a couple hundred years the Gleeman may all be telling tales of Al’Thor the Dragon Reborn who was gentled a thousand times by the White Tower in the years before Tarmon Gaidon and born anew the day after each time.
@20, 21, 24 RE: Elaida
Siuan’s Warder was killed when he resisted Siuan’s lawful arrest. That’s hardly murder. And as far as her taking Siuan down. There is no doubt a level of personal satisfaction in Elaida’s actions, but those are not her reasons for doing it. From her perspective, Siuan knew that the Dragon had been reborn and conspired to hide this knowledge from the tower for 20 years, long before she became Amyrlin. And to make matters worse, she knowingly let Rand leave Aes Sedai custody at Fal Dara, after she had been warned regarding his destructive potential. The vast majority of Aes Sedai, even those at Salidar, actually agree with Elaida’s reasoning. Even the Blues were mad at Siuan for hiding this from them.
The most terrible thing about Elaida prior to Padan Fain is quite simply her stupidity. She, at best, has a bit of low cunning, but she has no head for thinking beyond the immediate. I could go on about this, but we’ll get there eventually. //
There may only be two certainties in life, death and taxes, but the Wheel of Time has a third:
// Whatever Elaida decides her Fortellings mean, she’ll be massively, world-shatteringly wrong. She’s the anti-Min //
@30 – profoundly disagree, for reasons we can discuss when we get to those chapters (including that they could have immobilized him without difficulty).
@30 Anthony Pero
If Siuan’s actions constituted treason against the White Tower, she should have been brought to trial in the Hall of the Tower, where she would have a chance to face her accusers and offer a defense. Instead, she was seized and stilled by a group of her political enemies after being impeached by the minimum required number of Sitters. Siuan was not invited to her own impeachment.
If she’d handled this properly, by approaching Siuan and formally letting her know that the Hall was sitting to discuss her removal, then Siuan’s Warder would still be alive. But that would mean that Siuan could actually talk to the Aes Sedai about her actions, and Elaida wanted to ensure that she was removed without getting to speak to the Hall.
@32 RobMRobM
I didn’t even think about that, but yes. These are fully trained channelers, and they’re quite capable of disabling one Warder without killing him. I suspect that killing Siuan’s Warder was just another way for Elaida to twist the knife.
@32: And that conversation could get all kinds of off the rails with regards to the use of deadly force when exercising warrant authority. More than happy to delay it!
Another great post, I enjoy them a lot and always look forward to them.
The last couple, however, have been filled with typos. So much so that they are actually a distraction while reading.
I know I will miss some of them, but here’s some that stood out glaringly to me:
Morgase, not Morgause.
Elaida, not Elida.
“Moiriane reminds her of the destruction that such men can wreck.” Should be wreak.
“proper training, Nyneave’s power will outshine them both.” Nynaeve.
“She shows the Amyrlin the cuendillarseal, bearing the old Aes Sedai symbol sued when men and women ” Should be used, not sued.
@30 –
//The lawfulness of Siuan’s arrest is debatable. It literally caused a civil war inside the tower. And even if you give them the benefit of the doubt on the legality of their actions, there was no reason whatsoever to kill Alric when they could have just tied him up with Air.//
@33: That really, really, really needs to be whited out. All of it.
To respond:
// The second half of your first paragraph conflicts with the first half. Unless you are saying that you feel she should have been present. She was not required by Tower law to be present. And you are placing your own interpretation on Elaida’s decision making process. We also have no idea whose plan any of this was. Alvarian was extremely key in orchestrating all of it. Again, Elaida used low cunning to deduce (wrongly) that Siuan was an immediate danger to the entire fate of the world, and acted. She’s guilty of stupidity until the cows come home, but she wasn’t evil, and I don’t see much difference between terrible and evil, when it comes to people. Things, actions, decisions can be terrible without being evil, but I have strong, strong reservations about applying that word to humans. We use it too casually nowadays to demonize people we don’t agree with. It’s my nature to push back on things like that. //
A few musings:
I remember reading in part 6 of “Reading The Eye of the World” that you compared Nynaeve admitting to herself that she was a channeller as akin to “coming out” as gay or bisexual (or as transgender, I suppose). I also remember thinking when reading it that, while it is certainly an apt comparison that does hold water, I have always thought that becoming a channeller — and especially the first time touching saidar — was more akin to a Religious experience. I’m an Atheist myself, and have been all my life, so I can’t speak from personal experience; but I have a mother who is a Zen Buddhist Nun [although, side note: she does travel outside the monastery she lives in every 3 weeks or so for a few days to visit friends and family] and I’ve listened to a lot of people both in Real Life and on TV and on the Web talk about what it’s like to be Religious, and it does sound very similar to what I know about channelling. But what really proves that this is at least part of what Jordan intended is the fact that the Aes Sedai themselves are quite clearly based on the Catholic Church. Your musings on the title of the Amyrlin Seat are exactly the thing that prove this so definitively. The domain of a bishop is called the “episcopal see”, with “see” being an old word (based on the Latin “sedes”) meaning [drum rolls please]…. “seat”(!); however, there is only 1 person in the world that is called “See”, and that is the so-called Holy See, aka the See or Rome, aka…. the Pope. The Amyrlin Seat is the Holy Seat of the Aes Sedai, the head of their organisation, and in most things just a female Pope living in the Third Age (with the trappings of office that come with that) instead of the First.
I forgot whether the nature of the Pattern was explained yet. Moderators, feel free to white-out everything in between the “//” if my hazy memory of the exact placements of things within the story renders that which is written in between them Spoiler-territory. Also, if it turns out that these things have indeed not been revealed yet, could someone who is better at searching these things than me find out where these things are talked about? Anyway: //The threads in the Pattern are people; and the nodes at which they intersect are events. Thus, until the first event happens where the Dragon officially proclaims himself as the Dragon and there is no turning back, the Pattern cannot use his existence to cease the production of False Dragons.// There is another thing that points to why the official proclamation is the moment and the birth isn’t from near the end of The Eye of the World, but I don’t believe you (Sylas) picked up on that so I will white this one out myself: //When Rand was in Tarwin’s Gap, “The Voice” (aka the Creator) told him that “Only the Chosen One can do what must be done, if he will.” In other words, it is entirely possible, as far as the Pattern is concerned, that the Dragon will fail. Or, presumably, that he will never declare himself (which would, I presume, also result in failure). Thus, the Pattern cannot stop producing False Dragons once the real one is born, because at that point the Pattern doesn’t “know” yet if the real Dragon will actually take up the mantle or not.// At least, that’s how I interpret it.
There were less occurrences than I was expecting before truly delving into it and doing some actual verification on the WoT wiki (I had expected it to be about 3 chapters or so), but there has in fact been exactly 1 chapter that has had multiple Points of View. Well, 2 different Point of View Characters, to be exact. In fact, it was the first PoV shift after the Prologue. In Chapter 20 of The Eye of the World, during the flight out of Shadar Logoth, there is a brief section from Perrin’s point of view.
Interestingly, I have the exact opposite view on Bornhald’s morality than you do: I view him to be much more palatable than most Whitecloaks. I suppose this is because I don’t see Bornhald’s conflicting morality and values as hypocrisy, but as just that: conflicting morality and values. Or, I guess, more aptly: conflicting belief systems. Contrary to popular belief, Human Beings aren’t rational beings. Also contrary to popular belief, while objective reality cannot contain paradoxes, it is fully possible for a person to fully, sincerely and wholeheartedly believe in 2 things (or more than 2, even) that are incompatible with one another. So, in my mind, there is a simply a war of conflicting ideals / values / beliefs going on inside Bornhald — to be more specific, between an intrinsic or internal morality and an external belief system; both of which he beliefs in with all his heart — namely between his intrinsic belief in Justice [true Justice, that is, not what the Questioners consider “Justice”], fairness and the Light, which is telling him to protect innocent people, and to presume innocence until proof of guilt is acquired, on the one hand; and his belief in the cause of the Children of the Light, which is telling him to follow orders and to abide by the tactics of people like the Questioners, on the other hand. The fact that this “war” hasn’t resulted in (older) Bornhald’s innate good instincts fully winning out doesn’t mean that Bornhald’s a bad person; it just means that Bornhald is a flawed person. Some of the other Whitecloaks, though — especially the Questiones — specifically the ones who, as you put it, “don’t really care about anyone at all”? Now those people are evil. Not “Evil”, necessarily, but definitely evil. Bornhald the Elder I just can’t see as an evil person, no matter how hard I look at him. Like I said, just heavily (heavily!!) flawed. And, really, which of our Protagonists we have met thus far (and whom, presumably, most of us really like) isn’t heavily flawed? Meaning: isn’t condemning a person who isn’t a Protagonist for being heavily flawed really rather unfair when the same scrutiny isn’t applied to people who do happen to be Protagonists? Maybe even….. hypocritical? :P
@32, @33:
Do we know who killed him? Wasn’t it someone’s Warder? Lord knows it wasn’t any of the Aes Sedai using the Power.
@37 Anthony Pero
Thanks for the reminder to white out spoilers.
About half of the Tower shared Siuan’s feelings that an Amyrlin Seat shouldn’t be removed in secret by the minimum number of Sitters without the opportunity to speak in her own defense. “Tower law” is an ancient, complicated, and sometimes contradictory set of rules and traditions, some of them centuries old, and Elaida seems to have respected the letter but not the spirit of those traditions.
If you want to avoid a constitutional crisis, it’s best to act in an honest and aboveboard manner, rather than deposing your current head of state and immediately stilling her.
Elaida is not merely stupid, but willfully ignorant of anything that would get in the way of her getting her way. She wants to depose Siuan, so she’s going to construct a version of reality where she’s right to do so. There’s nothing morally superior about deliberately lying to yourself, and the self-deluded can be just as evil as outright Darkfriends. Look at the Seanchan for proof.
@39 Anthony Pero
If you break into a Aes Sedai’s room without any prior announcement or warning, her Warder is going to try to defend her. Fortunately, a trained Aes Sedai can non-lethally disable a Warder in about two seconds, making the death of Siuan’s Warder either malice or criminal negligence.
@38
The problem with It being the decision of the Dragon to proclaim himself is nicely summed up when the portal stone snafu happens… remember how much fun THAT was?
AP @34 – hear, hear. We’ll have a great discussion then. Even so, nice discussion buried behind white text. Thanks to all for that.
@@@@@ 30 Anthony
//Elaida plotted a coup and it split the tower. She may have taken advantage of a legal loophole, but it violated the spirit of the rules and turns out it wasn’t even legal because several of the Sitters who sided with her were Black Ajah. It was a simple power grab and it crippled the White Tower at a time the world needed it whole. It doesn’t make her eeeeeeevil, but it does make her a “bad guy”. She put her Ajah before the Tower and her own personal rise to power before everything. If it was on the up and up, she should have presented it to all of the Sitters, not just the ones she thought would agree with her and give her the bare minimum of approvals. Her level of “bad guy”ness is debatable, but she is a bad guy, just not Black Ajah. She believes she is right, but that doesn’t help in the end.//
KalvinKingsley @35 already posted all of the typos I noticed, so I just flagged that posting for the Moderators.
Other than the typos, excellent post as usual!
Going to wade into the Elaida discussion, going ahead and whiting it all out since it involves future events & events from the prequel New Spring.
I feel like Elaida is not evil the way we think of evil in these books (e.g. not a dark friend, not Mordeth, although Fain does corrupt her as others have already pointed out). However, she is certainly a bully. She wants to be the alpha, and she will let no one and nothing stand in her way. Even when she was a brand new sister, she mercilessly bullied Suian and Moiraine, which I always felt was due to her feeling threatened by their potential matching hers at a time when most Aes Sedai were pitifully weak in the power. She is not afraid to make unsavory alliances (e.g. becoming basically a slave to Alviarin) to get what she wants. While she is no Forsaken, I certainly find her to be vindictive, arrogant, and remorseless – not a good combination. Thus, I think I would definitely describe her as a bad person even before meeting Fain.
Oof. This is one of the shorter WoT books, and already it feels like the pace has drastically slowed…yet things are happening fast in the world at large. It’s just that the protagonists-thus-far have stayed in one place and the expanded scope allows for more infodumping/backstory. ///This will change soon.///
*thinks* Well, TEOTW took a little while to get going, too. But it was less dense with information and intrigue.
I liked Anaiya’s niceness from the start. And I love Siuan for her fish metaphors. But I wanted to be Brown Ajah as soon as Verin and Serafelle were described with their books and flower-study. Those are my people.
///Oh, Verin is quite aware of what’s happening around her, and in the broader world.///
How weird it must feel for these two longtime friends ///and former lovers/// to call each other “mother” and “daughter.”
“Darkfriends multiply, and what we called evil but ten years ago seems almost caprice compared with what now is done every day.” I know the feeling.
“She had not read it, but she had heard as much as she needed about it.” I expect many of us know people who judge books in that way…and/or have done it ourselves on occasion.
Geoffram wants to make sure people are Darkfriends before killing them…but doesn’t trust the Questioners to get the truth. How else does he judge them, exactly?
Liandrin’s speech pattern does sound a bit Yoda-like. Weird.
//Verin’s “flower studies” are really her code for taking secret notes. What would she do if another brown botanist looks at her books and realizes they don’t make sense as botanic works?//
Sylas – did you realize that the Whitecloak (Geoffram Bornhald) was the same guy who arrested Perrin and Egwene in Eye of the World? The text doesn’t suggest that you made that connection. You can compare and contrast his attitudes from EOTW and the passage in this chapter.
@47 – Everyone from talks that way. Bayle Domon is one example we’ve already met.
@50 Bayle Domon is from Illian. Liandrin is Taraboner. Their accents and speech patterns do no be the same. Fortune prick me, they do no.
Nice KalvinKingsley!
My two cents on the Elaida://
I view her as prideful, spiteful, and power-hungry. And yet, I do think she was trying to “save” the world. I think she started out with fairly good intentions – she really thought Siuan was going to screw things up. However, I think part of her disagreement was simply that she wasn’t in control. I do lay most of the early disasters at Alvarian’s influence and planning, and she was a master manipulator. But… we’ll see when we actually get there. Maybe some of my memories of how it went down are muddled. Anyway, after those early disasters, I lay her reactions and the consequences from them totally at Elaida’s feet. //
@47 As KalvinKingsley pointed out, Liandrin is from Tarabon. And as we will find out later, //her accent and speech patterns become much more noticeable when she is excited or angry. This is upsetting to her as they identify her as a commoner.//
My two cents on Evil born of Ignorance versus Evil born of hate. An evil born of Ignorance can be fought with KNOWLEDGE/LEARNING/TEACHIN while an evil born of hate cannot. However even an evil born if Ignorance must be WILLING to learn, and even if it is willing to learn it may take time and may not learn everything at once. Take that and apply it to your debate as you will.
I don’t know how to spoiler tag so will someone get the mods to whiteout the bit between slashes
For example compare //Elaida to Gawyn. One was willing to learn the other wasn’t. Also keep in mind that Gawyn ALSO spent a large time being isolated from information whereas Elaida had plenty of it. Also while he didn’t have a literal hate plague the way Elaida did, he still wrestled with his own INNER anger. And Mat had to wrestle with a hate plague as well but never succumbed to betraying Rand and was always a friend to children. I may be going out on a lmb here, but I am going to assume the hate plague is a magical metaphor. It can’t add something that isn’t there to begin with. It can only amplify your worst impulses./
@54 You should white out a lot of that!!!!
@54 BenW: you can hide spoilers by setting the text color to white in between the slashes.
@40:
I’ll just address this one more point regarding Elaida, then let the conversation stand from my end until sometime two or three years from now.
// My question regarding the death of Siuan’s Warder was to point out that Elaida didn’t kill him. Or necessarily even have him killed. I asked if we knew how he was killed. I don’t think we ever find out. When I’m evaluating wether someone is a terrible person or not, I can’t base that evaluation on the fallout of their decisions. No one can control what other people do as a consequence of their decisions. They may be responsible for the fall out. It may be their fault. But the outcome isn’t what makes someone terrible or not.
A terrible person would be terrible regardless of the outcome of their decisions and actions. What if the Blues had accepted the result of Elaida and Alvarian’s political maneuver? The Tower wouldn’t have split, then. What if someone HAD wrapped Siuan’s Warder up instead of some Warder killing him?
These were all other people’s actions and decisions based on Elaida’s actions and decisions. It wouldn’t change what Elaida had done at all, so why should it change whether she is terrible or not? Certainly her actions led to terrible consequences. Certainly she is not a likable character. Even other Reds don’t like her much. Not arguing that at all. I’m just not able to define her as “terrible” in these early books, because she’s being manipulated, and quite frankly, she doesn’t have the brain capacity to see through the manipulation. That said, I’m also not remotely sympathetic towards her. //
BenW @54: Flagged your comments for the Moderator to white out. If you want to try it yourself, then the trick is to highlight the text to be hidden and use the button above the posting box that’s an underlined “A” on a white background to set the selected text to white. Do this _before_ Previewing the text and the change should stick. (They may have fixed this bug since I last tried it.)
Evelina@45:
Ok, one more Elaida response. But again, I haven’t read New Spring in a while, so the discussion is better placed there:
// I think much of Elaida’s treatment of Moiraine and Siuan was the feeling that they were coddled as Novices and Accepted, and advanced much too quickly. its almost exactly the same as Faolin with Egwene and Elayne. A natural sour disposition and a desire to adhere to the unwritten rules that they believe bind the Tower together combined to make them extremely hard on two talented sets of trainees who weren’t made to follow the same “rules” as everyone else.
And much like Egwene and Elayne, Moiraine and Siuan were raised under extraordinary circumstances, and very, very early. Moiraine and Siuan were raised very early in order to be the Amyrlin’s ferrets to search for the DR. But no one knew that, all Elaida knew was two Accepted who weren’t ready (in her opinion) were raised suddenly, and then one of them disappeared from the Tower for most of the next 20 years. And there are other suspicions she harbors, because of things the Black Ajah were doing around that time. She distrusts Moiraine and Siuan very, very much, and has cause, from her point of view. //
Anthony Pero @59
IIRC, Elaida, apparently, was trying to help Mo and Si’s development (like tough love or some such, with a dash of sadism) but they misconstrued it and this had negative consequence for Elaida and she being quite spiteful character became their enemy for life.
@jadis666 Great, GREAT post on the Aes Sedai. I was bothered by the conclusion that they were a dictatorship, but I couldn’t get the right comparison to express why. It’s exactly like the Pope leading the church, or a monastic order with strict discipline. It’s a life set apart, you enter it freely (one hopes) but once you’re in, you’re in for the long haul. Under ideal circumstances the discipline is hard but fair and necessary because of the responsibility/power involved. Alas, these circumstances are far from ideal. And because the Aes Sedai are human, well, things have been broken for a while. Maybe always.
@59 – Everything you say here are not facts, but your own interpretation, while it could be true (only could) it is hard for me to believe just because of one FACT, which is she //hurt them for 3 days, and got nearly heavily punished by M. ov novices//, while you could defend her saying that that’s exactly that, that she behaved on the border of crossing rules, but if her initial motive was to //properly train them// , then why do something that might get you punished, and if you understood you crossed the line a bit, then why are you visibly brooding spitting hatred from your eyes //when you look at Moiraineafter people told on you, also if I remember correctly, she tried to fail Moiraine, which has nothing to do with “proper” training//. It IS more logical for her low cunning to try to disguise her jealousy of someone making it as fast as her to the ring and Shal (?) as them not being mature enough, which is BS, as she herself advanced //that fast//.
@46 – Now as much as I don’t mind at all thinking about //Moiraine and Siuan as lovers// I don’t think it was even hinted in NS. Just that they spent very much time together and cry one on the other shoulders and so on, so while you COULD speculate that, you certainly can’t state that as if it is a fact in my opinion.
@59
“Moiraine and Siuan were raised very early in order to be the Amyrlin’s ferrets to search for the DR” is this again your interpretation? as I don’t recall that to be a fact. ” And there are other suspicions she harbors, because of things the Black Ajah” and again your interpretation, as it is not know in my memory that she suspected them of such things.
Elaida.
Evil?
Stupid? Low cunning?
I don’t believe it is reasonable to conclude she was any of these things.
She was blinkered. A dramatis personae for whom the ‘Big Picture’ was only ever really going to be a selfie.
//Alviarin actually muses on such a level of self-absorption nevertheless, being no barrier to Elaida making things happen according to her single-minded vision… And how dangerous/frightening that could be.//
Elaida’s ruthlessness begat opportunism. //Her high opinion of herself blended with that opportunity & undeniable power, served to successfully reinforce her in the highest seat, until the wider world intruded.
And in the end this was her inevitable downfall. The world she sought to rule got too big for her to dominate. All her stratagems are created to fit inside her narrow view of the world, best illustrated by her most successful riposte against Alviarin coming not because she genuinely believes her nemesis is Black Ajah, but that the association would cause her the most damage.
And this is why I diverge from those who see her acting against Siuan as evil, or stupid, or because she saw her as truly dangerous to The Tower. As soon as the opportunity arose, Elaida did the only thing her narrow view could compass… What was best for Elaida – which she genuinely believed would be best for everybody else.//
@64 – And that’s why people here don’t say that her intentions were to do evil, but a woman with her power and responsibility to cripple the tower that lasted for 3000 years , and seldom had such a big disaster tells you something about her character in comparison to MOST other sisters in history know that though obviously all those generations of Aes Sedai had with no doubt ambitious sisters, they had a limit they wouldn’t surpass in order to achieve their peak, because if not such rebellions would occur every 5 years (much like our own voting system and politicians who only see their own gain), but Aes Sedai always had higher standards. So call her what you want. She stepped so low (even before Fain) that she crippled the tower, which is a rare feat.
Concerning the word “pillow-friends”.
I just watched the old Shogun mini-series that’s set around 1600 AD. There the act of lovemaking was referred to as “pillowing”.
I found that quite interesting.
@63 –
//It is stated outright that Moiraine and Siuan were “pillow friends” in one of the books (don’t recall which), and Jordan is on the record confirming the sexual nature of that relationship description.
Also, while we don’t know that it’s the reason they advanced so quickly, we do know that the then-Amyrlin, Moiraine, and Siuan were the only witnesses to the Foretelling of Rand’s birth, and that the three of them kept the secret until about one book from this point in the read.//
I don’t seem to be able to post in Chrome today.
@64:
Its not even MY opinion, its Elaida’s point of view. That doesn’t make it right. My only opinion is that these actions don’t make Elaida terrible. Because terrible is a terrible word when applied to a human being. It immediately rejects everything they are, and makes it too easy for people to see and treat them as sub-human, without even thinking about what they are doing. See: Seanchan.
// Elaida did not “split the Tower.” Her actions certainly led to the Tower split, but to say Elaida did it, as a direct causal action, is far too narrow of a viewpoint for me to swallow, as it removes agency from all the other players in this scenario, and gives Elaida both too much credit and too much blame. It’s just not that simple. It never is in real life, either.
And this is exactly why I rebel against applying the word terrible to a person, as opposed to actions. It become too easy to demonize the person on the other side, the other political aisle, the other “team”, instead of holding everyone accountable for their own actions.
The Hall, and the Ajah heads (other than Red and Blue), intentionally split the tower. They chose to do it, willingly. They sent one sitter of each Ajah (other than Red and Blue) to Salidar. If they hadn’t done that, it would have been just the Blues in rebellion. The vast majority of the other sisters at Salidar (other than Blue) would have likely come back to the Tower if their own leadership hadn’t attempted to play both ends agains the middle. And Egwene rightly chastises and punishes them for this when she reunites the Tower.
Were they terrible people as well? Or just wrong? //
Ok, I am really not successfully leaving this conversation. lol.
@67: Please find that quote, both in the books, and from RJ. I don’t remember that at all. I certainly remember that regarding other Aes Sedai.
@68
I’m not even going to attempt to find the book quote, but here you go.
// Apparently you can’t whiteout hyperlinks //
@67 // Yes they are referred to as pillow friends. And yes Jordan is on the record confirming the sexual nature of that relationship description. However the person (I forget who), who referred to them as such was, to the best of my recollection, not Moiraine or Siuan. That still puts it firmly in the area of speculation and not fact. //
@70:
I’m looking into that quote now, its not an RJ quote, its a reference to a passage of New Spring.
Yes, so this passage is Merean telling Cadsuane about Moiraine, and mentioning Siuan as Moiraine’s “pillow-friend“. Then we get Moiraine being embarrassed (that they were talking about her like she was still Accepted, not about the “pillow-friends” talk) and Moiraine thinking dismissively that her relationship with Siuan was no one’s business but theirs.
That is, no doubt intentionally on RJs part, left up to reader interpretation. So I’d be interested to see the quote of RJs that was mentioned by olethros6@67, for confirmation on what was left up to speculation in the text.
John @71
IIRC, Jordan was confirming the nature of Moiraine and Siuan’s relationship, not just the definition of “pillow-friends”. So if my memory serves me right it would put it in the area of fact and not speculation.
This is the only RJ quote in theoryland’s database where RJ mentions pillow-friends:
INTERVIEW: Sep 30th, 2005
Robert Jordan’s Blog: YET ANOTHER POST
ROBERT JORDAN
And for MJJ, as posted by DomA, pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.
TAGS: pillow friends, sexuality,
_____________________________________
So, no mention of Moiraine or Siuan in what I could find.
New Spring, chapter 17, makes it fairly obvious. If after reading the relevant passages, one still insists it’s only speculation, then they don’t want to believe it.
Anthony Pero @74
Thank you for the link. Reading all the answers by RJ made me a little sad, the plans for the new series… Anyway, indeed no specific mention of Moiraine and Siuan. But very clear about pillow friends and we know they were such so it’s pretty obvious.
mp1952 @75 is right. I suspect the fairly suble way RJ wrote it was in part to help some people do just that.
@75, 76:
In my opinion, that was intentionally written to allow the reader to believe whatever they want and not answer the question directly, which is why I’d be extremely surprised to see a direct quote on it from RJ.
It certainly doesn’t constitute proof by any reasonable definition of the word proof. No one in this thread (that I’ve read, at least) has said that Siuan and Moiraine weren’t pillow-friends, only that it wasn’t confirmed with them, like it was for some other Aes Sedai. There’s nothing unreasonable about thinking that they were, based on that passage, but its not written in such a way as to make it inarguable.
Technically not proof, but pretty damned close. All quotes from New Spring.
//Cadsuane moved behind Merean, asking the same question, adding, “A fondness for … pranks, Larelle said. A troublesome child?” Merean shook her head with a smile.
“Not troublesome, really. High-spirited. None of the tricks Moiraine played were mean, but they were plentiful. Novice and Accepted, she was sent to my study more often than any three other girls. Except for her pillow-friend Siuan. Of course, pillow-friends frequently get into tangles together, but with those two, one was never sent to me without the other. The last time the very night after passing for the shawl.”//
Also,
//Siuan was right, in a way, about her knowing Siuan’s tricks. Siuan liked to use tickles at the worst possible moment, sudden pokes in unpleasant places, embarrassing caresses…//
And,
//They were going to be sharing that bed, and Siuan knew exactly which ticklish spots could reduce her to helpless laughter and pleading.//
Considering //the Cairheinin view of public discussions of private matters,
Moiraine kept her face smooth, kept her hands from knotting into fists, but she could do nothing about burning cheeks. That ruefully amused frown, as if she were still Accepted. She needed seasoning did she? Well, perhaps she did, some, but still. And spreading out all these intimacies!
“I think you know all of me that you need to know,” she told Cadsuane stiffly. How close she and Siuan had been was no one’s business but theirs.//
Finally,
//“Before you find a Warder like that, child, a brigand who wants to see what’s in your purse will put an arrow through your heart. A footpad who’d faint at the sight of a sister in her sleep will crack your head, and you’ll wake at the back of an alley minus your gold and maybe more. I suspect you’ll want to take as much care choosing your first man as you do your first Warder.” Moiraine jerked back, spluttered with indignation. First her and Siuan, now this. There were things one talked about, and things one did not!//
Not proof but rquires willful suspension of belief to dismiss.
Regarding the relationship between Moiraine and Siuan, the answer is explicitly stated in the Wheel of Time Companion.
//“[Moiraine] and Siuan became very close friends. As was common with a good many friendships in the cloistered society of novices, Siuan and Moiraine turned to one another more and more for comfort, and they eventually became pillow friends, continuing up to the time they were raised Aes Sedai and to some extent for a time thereafter.”//
This is my first comment here, so I hope I’m not breaking some rule by quoting that.
@@@@@ 78 // Ok, I’m convinced. Don’t remember it being as explicit as it was. //
@78:
Again, I’m not arguing that they weren’t pillow-friends. I’m arguing for the fact that it was intentionally vague. That it was RJ tweaking us, as he liked to do.
@79:
That certainly qualifies as demonstrable proof. That book is directly form from Team Jordan. Case closed.
Edit: Does anyone else constantly type from as form? No? Just me? Ugh.
You can check out questions on different WoT-subjects asked to Jordan and Sanderson on the WoT Interview database, many are RAFO’d.
(link contains spoilers).
https://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php
@65
@69.
At the risk of getting dizzy on this argument roundabout long before we reach the events in question, my argument was & remains, //Elaida’s actions were not born out of anything other than a fierce intelligence that was nevertheless no match for her self-absorption.
That is the journey we as readers go on with her, while being able to observe the wider consequences in our position of relative omniscience.
I objected to the labels of ‘evil’; ‘stupid’; ‘low cunning’ and, while not explicitly saying so, by implication, the notion that Elaida was a ‘terrible’ person. She was an ambitious, single minded, powerful individual who acted in her own best interests when the opportunity presented itself…
And was eventually – after undeniable documented successes – undone by the narrow prism the self absorption of her own best interests, lent to her worldview.
She became the character figurehead in the Series for what the White Tower itself had become.
Isolated.
Anachronistic.
Self-Involved.
And her attempts to operate in the larger theatre of greater world affairs created the opportunity for the Tower to regenerate. Reassess. In the end, Rebuild.
That’s not taking agency away from anyone else. Or minimizing her destructiveness. I’m just putting her motives & influence in proper perspective.//
@83 – Your description of Elaida could be used for // Hitler also. I don’t really understand this great aversion to the word terrible – I use it for people that are selfish and cause great pain to others and don’t care that they do. //
@84:
And its exactly that, the jump to // Hitler,// that makes me wary of the use of the word “terrible” when applied to human beings. To use your term, this is where my “great aversion” comes from:
There is no doubt that the word terrible is an apt descriptor for the person who intentionally and systematically attempts to orchestrate the erasure of an entire ethnic group, and succeeds in murdering six million of them. // Hitler’s // involvement in the Holocaust was direct, and intentional. Not in the specifics of how each murder was done, but in the fact that he ordered these experiments and wanted the Jewish people eliminated as enemies of the State. Hitler is terrible. He is demonized, and should be. Because of this, we rightly look askance at anyone who spouts his supremacy doctrine or wears a swastika.
To do the same thing to someone whose actions nor intentions come close to sniffing that level of evil, like // Elaida // — or the politicians on the opposite side of our own persuasion, or, most especially, the people who support those people — however, is merely the censure of people for having the audacity to disagree with us. Labeling someone terrible is akin to labeling them terrorist. We immediately dismiss them as lesser than ourselves and it becomes easier to accept the systematic censure of them and the people who agree with them. We make them — in essence, if not in fact — sub-human. And it kills any chance of dialog, understanding, growth, or compromise, because we have framed both them, and the debate at large, in absolutes:
“If you’re not my friend, then you’re my enemy”
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes!”
“No truce with the Shadow!” *
“Part of an Axis of Evil”
“We do not negotiate with Terrorists” *
* ok, I agree with those two!
The difference between telling someone “What you did was terrible!” and “You are terrible!” may seem subtle, but its not. Its a wide, wide gulf that our society keeps making larger. I just instinctively feel the need to push back against it, because its destroying us. I’m not talking about refraining from calling out evil. I most definitely believe in good and evil. But I’m completely uncomfortable labeling people as one or the other, when, with very few exceptions, they’re neither — they’re just people.
@85 – I understand not wanting to label people as just one thing because we are many things. But the truth is that we are what we do. We are selfish when we do selfish things. We are generous when we do generous things. We are terrible when we do terrible things. We are a thief when we steal. We are a hero when we do something heroic. And when we unapologetically embrace certain actions and ways of thought we can be defined by one thing.
That does not mean that we cannot change. The WoT gives great examples of this.
Ingtar became a Dark Friend, but then redeemed himself.
Rand becomes an unfeeling stone, but then made a wonderful change with just a decision.
Eliada makes many selfish choices that lead to terrible ends, and never has any remorse or change of heart … she became terrible.
That is the great and horrible thing about life, our decisions and actions have real consequences to both others and to ourselves. Each decision and action defines who we are and who we become, but it is never too late to change … until it is. The road is paved with good intentions, don’t wait to make a good decision or a change for the better.
@86 But does calling them names make them more likely to look inside and reflect on themselves and try to dig deeper or is it more likely to make them double down defensively and NOT consider the consequences of their actions. I think THAT is what 85 is getting at. You can call someone out on their terrible actions, without calling them an intrinsically bad person as well. Last I checked the Wheel Of Time has examples of that as well. And while it does not ALWAYS work it OFTEN does. IF there is any merit to the person.
@86:
God, how I wish it were actually that simple.
Sometimes people do things that seem heroic to some people, but are atrocious to others.
Who decides?
Sometimes people do things that look good on the outside, but their motivations were selfish.
Who decides?
Some cultures view things as right and good and natural that another culture abhors.
Who decides?
The examples are limitless.
@87:
I don’t think its about calling them names. Calling someone “terrible” isn’t calling them a name. Its defining them, mostly in your own mind, as something less than human. Like a rabid dog. Which Elaida most certainly was by the end. But some of that was the influence of Fain, some of that was deciding to double down on her own stupid decisions, and a whole lot of that was authorial fiat to make Egwene look more mature and reasonable to the other Aes Sedai by comparison.
Re: //Pillow Friends// and all things //queer// in WoT:
//The whole pillow friends thing in WoT has always annoyed me a little, here are my reasons:
(1) You don’t become gay by proximity, it may make you feel more safe, or increase your chances of interaction with someone sharing your proclivities, but an all girl White Ttower won’t make you gay if you aren’t already moving away from the straight end of the sexuality spectrum. Even in the forums you see discussions about how men in the Black Tower might have been less likely to be gay because their wives could join. This is now how gay works. Speaking of which…
(2) Gay men, there need to be more of them. This is a risky place to speak ill of RJ, but you do a disservice to acceptance of homosexuality when you write about lesbians but not gay men. Many men are more comfortable with the idea of lesbians than gay men. I don’t want to get into the whole discussion of erasure and fetishization, but the lack of gay male “pillow friends” bugs me
(3) The Galina / Therava story gives me the willies. It is an awful perpetuation of the depraved homosexual trope (with both of them using their sexuality in a predatory way). Not cool. Similar to what Elaida does with Melidsa.
I know RJ was a product of his time, but that doesn’t mean that I still can’t find some of this problematic. //
@89 // I think it’s acknowledged that RJ is a bit dodgy with his characterization of queer people, not to mention his depiction of all-female environments. Male homosexuality is decidedly absent from the books he wrote and Sanderson’s attempt to correct that was fairly ham-handed.
That being said, situation homosexuality is a thing, so having wives at the Black Tower is likely to reduce the incidence of male “pillow friends.” It won’t affect how many of the men are actually gay. I will forbear from digressing into the pitfalls of applying our constructs of sexual orientation to a pre-modern or early modern set of cultures. //
@89:
Its said in-text that most “pillow-friends” don’t stay that way once they gain the shawl. This isn’t about being homosexual, its about young people (15-25) experimenting with those closest to them, which was practically its own trope regarding the college experience when RJ was writing. Some discovered their preference, and the most of the rest moved on.
EDIT: What @90 said, basically. Noblehunter beat me to the punch.
@88 Anthony Pero
All systems of morality are based on classifying actions as good or bad. Even if we refuse to judge people, it’s impossible to have any kind of ethics without being able to judge actions.
The short answer is that we decide. And in this case, I’ve decided that arresting and stilling Siuan without giving her a chance to speak in her own defense is obviously immoral. The only reason for Elaida to do things that way was that she wanted Siuan stilled as soon as possible, so that she couldn’t possibly regain her position as Amyrlin. There was no other reason to act in such a hurry, without consulting the full Hall of the Tower or giving Siuan a trial.
It’s possible to justify any action if you reach hard enough for excuses. In this case, the facts obviously show that Elaida hated Siuan personally, that she wanted to usurp her position as Amyrlin, and that she either didn’t know or didn’t care that her actions would cause bloodshed and division within the Tower.
Her actions were terrible, and her motives involved a mix of arrogance, willful blindness, and personal bias against Siuan. Even if she was absolutely convinced that Siuan was unfit to be Amyrlin and that she had endangered the Tower, there is no excuse for removing her in the way that she did.
@92, all of your post except the first paragraph is a spoiler. Can you please white it out?
@87-Of course it can be harmful to label people and call them names such as calling them stupid, shy, worthless, etc. It is very important to complement and encourage individuals on their strengths and the positive things they are good at. However, I don’t have a problem with labeling other people as examples of bad and good role models, such as, Founding Fathers, Hitler, Einstein, drug addicts, murderers, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Uncle Cory (Alcoholic), cancer survivors, etc.
@88-I never said it is simple or easy. You and I and society judge (we decide) what is acceptable, unacceptable, noble and terrible. One of the hardest things in my life was being a juror in a murder trial and declaring her a murderer. It was even harder to judge her mitigating circumstances (her life and behaviors) and decide if she deserved the death penalty (we decided no).
In the US, we have over 2 million people in prison, very near the top percentage of any country in the world. Is it wrong that we judge that many people as criminals? I don’t know. There are no easy answers, but I do know how critical it is to recognize every persons unalienable rights and value and yet at the same time enforce high standards and the rule of law.
I’m not sure if it’s worth posting since it seems Sylas doesn’t spend any time in the comments section anymore. But…
You mentioned that it seems to you like the Prophecies of the Dragon ate more like instructions than events that might happen, but must happen if the Dragon is to win. This will cause many problems in the future as some Aes Sedai are convinced the Dragon must be kept safe and controlled while others argue that the Prophecies can’t be fulfilled if he’s tucked away in Tar Valon. good catch on your part. I can’t say more without getting spoilery however.
@92, that seems to entirely miss the thrust of what my argument is, so I’m either not making it well or we are just talking past each other at this point. So I’ll focus on what we both seem to agree on.
Elaida’s actions, almost throughout the entirety of the series, were horrible, and had horrible consequences. She sucks.
Eugh, a bit behind here, but, jumping back a little.
@10: that may be the case, but it definitely foreshadows // Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve’s roles as Siuan’s hunting dogs in tDR. //
@17; I like how // the Grey occupy the litteral middle ground between the Black (representing Chaos) and the White (representing Order). //
Rather than becoming embroiled in topics of terrible versus sucks and is bad, I think that // the Reds being protrayed almost uniformly as unlikeable, horrid, selfish or Black in the earlier books was deliberate for many reasons. Not only does it ramp up their threat value to our protagonists and foreshadows The Split (and sets us up for a very welcome resolution to several character arcs), but it also gives far more weight to the goodness of the few ‘nice’ Reds we meet later on, and the subsequent transformation of the Ajah into something new and exciting! //
Lastly, Mods: please see the spelling mistakes, as pointed out by @35 and @44. They are small but frustrating and have managed to carry over from the previous part too! In addition, I should note that it’s Shienar/Shienaran, not Shinar/Shinaran.
@96 – A very interesting and important conversaation, but I’d like to know Anthony, since you don’t want us to blur the lines to much calling her terrible, and after you agreed that Hitle was such a person, then where is the lower part of that defenition? Hitler being obviously an extreme, which is easy to make out, and I understand the argument of both sides about //Elaida// , so do you have other examples, not extreme ones who would fit the description? I mean what does make one terrible and what does not suffice for such a defenition in your opinion?
I see the moderator took a pity on post 99 and removed it before too many people, especially from outside the US read it :)
Anyway, I haven’t seen so much white space as on this thread since I aborted an early draft on a uni dissertation years ago :)
But if you don’t mind spoilers it’s been very enjoyable discussion.
PS The HUNNY is mine!
@100: Congrats!
EDIT: I wrote a short primer on the etymology of the word “hunny” here on Tor.com, probably on the Cosmere re-read, but I can’t find it! I’m sure there are people on here wondering what the heck we are talking about, lol, so if anyone can find that comment, link to it!
@98: That’s the thing. I’ve tried to be very consistent in just saying this is what I think, and then trying to explain why. I’m not in to telling others what to think, so I apologize if I’ve come across that way.
I do think it is an important issue, and I do hope that people will use the term less in regards to other human beings, but I’m not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t do, or who they should or shouldn’t apply the word “terrible” to. What I am trying to do is make people aware of what I see as the consequences of that (perhaps) reflexive habit. Its not about what labeling someone as “terrible” does to the other person. Its about what labeling them does to us. It prevents us from listening, from compromising, from living, from forgiving, all of which hurts us more than the other person.
So, to answer your question, I think its appropriate for you to apply that word to whomever you think should be demonized, ostracized, and completely censured from ever having an opinion. For me, that will be very, very, very few people.
Great post as always Sylas, and great arguments Re: Elaida and I stand on the side of the scale that sees her as a bad person. Not Evil just BAD.
Now //Cadsuane// I can find NO love for. Supposedly good but //totally arrogant// and playing with stuff //she has no real understanding of// and trying to be the biggest person in the world. Luckily, //Tam al’Thor// puts her in place.
The thing is, I can understand Elaida’s messed up point of view, but //Cadsuane’s// arrogance doesn’t add anything at all.
One of the few things Elaida does manage to do //is reunite the tower under Egwene//. Unlike //Cadsuane who only manages to well Nothing actually. //If left out of the story, no difference would be made.
Note: potential spoilers whited out by moderator.
@101
Thanks, though back in the day it used to be much more of a sport…
As for that particular conversation I appreciate your sentiment. I had similar thing with the Seanchan when people argued that all of them should’ve been wiped out, how utterly evil they were, etc. I was pointing out that the bulk of the nasty characteristics of theirs were present in most major human cultures at one point or another.
I think you were a bit ambitious over which character you made your stand on ;)
Did nobody read new spring?
The false dragons were a defense mechanism for the real dragon. Noise makers to attract people trying to kill the real mccoy.
@103:
I wanted to point out the differences in her motivations pre- and post-Fain, which to me is when she crossed the Rubicon between idiot and actively evil. And to illustrate how subtle that push can be. But the topic got away from me.
@104
Re: false dragons
I’ve read the entire series 3-4 times, including New Spring, and your theory about false dragons //being defense mechanisms by the wheel // has never occurred to me. I think that’s brilliant. Obviously //the Black Ajah was out killing channelers,// but I never twigged to the likely fact that the false dragons // were a way to muddy the waters to give the real Dragon time to develop.//
Related to Sylas’s OP on this, count me in the club of those who believe //that Rand and the boys were not born ta’veren, but were instead tapped by the Wheel either at the moment the 3rd age story begins on An Empty Road or thereabouts. Thus there effectively *was* no dragon before then, and even not till he declared himself at which point all false dragons were immediately declared null and void.//
What may really bake your noodle is this question: //what would have happened if Rand went over to the dark? Or in the event of the reincarnation of LTT not declaring himself a proper dragon and instead living his days out on the farm? Would the visions seen in the “If” worlds of the Portal Stone Trip come into play? Would the wheel have spun out a “backup dragon?” E.g., would the wheel have tapped Logain on the shoulder and had him lead armies for the light, and try to put another patch on the Bore? How would that have played out given the official Dragon Soul (TM) was not available to do what it was supposed to do? Or would it truly be “I win again Lews Therin”… and is that a real victory or a stalemate for the Dark One?//
As a lawyer with a large interest in constitutional law I find the discussion of Elidia and the different definitions of Evil people are using here quite interesting. I can’t wait until we get to this section (in a year or so). It parallels so nicely in interesting ways to our own time. Some here, maybe even most, would say ends justify the means is evil ALWAYS – others (possibly including pero?) would not. Some, maybe many here, I feel are made uncomfortable by ambition. Others, like myself, are not. All of this I think is part of the background to this conversation and important to it. When we use different definitions – we are likely not going to agree. This is why contracts, and constitutions, and such do not use words like freedom. Defining them is largely an exercise in futility.
It’s nice that you pointed out Captain Bornhald hypocrisy for what it is but sad that you didn’t do the same for the Amyrlin who knowingly caused deadly floods and winds in order to get somewhere she didn’t need to be a little faster. In fact this series “Good Guys” utter callousness to the cost of innocent life as the is what made me stop reading it.
Also the Pattern is like the Force it does whatever the Plot needs it to
@108:
Since the Prophecies of the Dragon specify that the Dragon Reborn had to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount, and since we have an Aes Sedai with the Foretelling declaring the exact moment of his birth, and since none of the False Dragons were A) born on Dragonmount, nor B) Rand’s age, then I’m afraid that neither logic nor the facts are on the side of that particular “theory”.
@109:
I believe pretty strongly that actions matter more than intentions. Which is why I find Elaida’s actions to be hateful, distasteful and utterly intolerable even early on in the series. But I hesitate to use any language (even if it might be true and accurate) that would make it easier for me to totally dismiss another individual’s viewpoint. I think this way, not because I believe that everyone’s viewpoints are valid, but because I’m a fallible human being, and ultimately, I will do myself harm by dismissing the viewpoints of others without honest evaluation. If I assign them the label of “terrible”, “evil”, “subhuman”, “monster”, “terrorist”, or any of a hundred other labels both old and not yet invented, I run the risk of doing this. I believe that a very, very large portion of why we label others is to dismiss them and not have to deal with the reasons they think differently then ourselves, thereby sidestepping the need to question our own beliefs in the process. Its simple expediency. Life is a whole lot easier if you don’t have to question what you believe and why you believe it.
And its not really the word I object to, its the dehumanization behind it. Terrible, after all, is just a word. For some, the labels they apply to others in order to dismiss them might be “idiot” or “queer”, or “christian”, or “muslim”. For many, the word “liberal” is a means by which to label and dismiss. For others, its “fascist.” They may all be accurate descriptors of the individual in question, but when they are used to dismiss them from your mind utterly, they are equally as dangerous as the word “terrible.” To us, not to the people we label.
I missed a very good conversation, it seems.
As for the character in question, I don’t mind labeling her as terrible, but I don’t think I view terrible as having as strong connotations when used to describe a person. While actions are more important than intent, I do think intent *matters*, and I think it’s perfectly acceptable to judge a person’s actions based on downstream consequences if there was any reasonable way to predict that it is a possibility, or if you don’t even bother to think about them. That’s a lesson I’m constantly trying to drill into my rambunctious kids; very few things are true ‘accidents’ even if you don’t ‘intend’ them to happen. There’s a certain moral laziness in not bothering to consider it. As for the actions we are discussing I think there is at least some culpability that could have led to predicting a negative outcome, although perhaps not in the specifics.
Anyway, even before the turning point for this character, I do think that, intentions aside, she was clearly unwilling to consider others and too blinded by her own desires for power, control to really make wise decisions. Definitely a flawed individual.
Sylas, your commentary on Bornhald is really interesting. At what point to people become complicit in the actions of others, groups, leadership, even when you disagree with the actions, but may still agree with the overarching cause. Granted, he doesn’t seem to be doing anything to change, and would apparently willingly have killed innocents, so he gets a little less sympathy from me. But it’s actually a conundrum I can deeply and painfully relate to.
@112 + @109 , although I agree with all you said, I just want to linger again on something no one except me mentioned, and I don’t get it why it is left out. You dicussed a lot the death of //Siuan’s warder//, which //Elaida// didn’t commit , but abusing //Moiraine and Siuan// and beating them up, making it look like no biggie just because she meant to heal them after that, and that also only in the morning is terrible. I didn’t call her terrible because the I would wipe out anything left good in her, which I won’t do, but the intent AND the actions were TERRIBLE.
This is one of those days where Tor won’t let me post, huh? The editor seems not to want to post after whiting things out. Pro-tip if that happens to you. Copy your comment (white text and all), refresh the browser, type a single sentence with no formatting, then hit Quick Reply. After it posts, hit Edit, and paste your comment below the sentence you wrote, and click Update Comment.
@114:
Siuan and Leane were interrogated because Elaida thought Siuan was Black Ajah, and because Elaida needed to know everything that was in Siuan’s box of notes that burst in to flame. She thought the fate of the world hinged on that knowledge. No doubt she thought she was perfectly in the right to do so. (I obviously don’t agree).
And for those who would say “torture never produces good intel,” well, first off, that thought wasn’t codified into our collective consciousness until after this scene was written. Plenty of people who would now subscribe to that as truth thought torture was a perfectly legitimate tactic 40 years ago.
Second, its not that torture never produces good intel, its that the intel it produces is unreliable, because you don’t know if the person actually knows anything – and if they don’t know, they are going to say anything to make the torture stop. In the case where you actually have the real perpetrator, they are far more likely to tell you the truth to make the torture stop than a lie, for fear of worse torture should you find out they lied. Its just under normal circumstances, you can’t know that you actually have the correct person.
And finally, in this particular case, Elaida is interrogating Aes Sedai. They can’t tell a direct lie. She has no knowledge to that point that Black Ajah can lie. And even if she did know that, or suspect it, she would just use that to try to trap them in a lie, thereby proving they are Black Ajah. Either way, from Elaida’s point of view, the torture was not only morally justified (the entire world is in imminent danger, and what we don’t know might kill us all), but also a strong strategic tactic.
And, just to be clear, I don’t share her point of view.
@114:
Also, regarding the “healing in the morning.” This is Tower law. Initiates are allowed to be tortured when questioned as long as they are healed before sunrise the next morning.
Its also worth pointing out that Siuan knew what she was doing with Rand would get her tried before the Hall and found guilty, stilled and removed as Amyrlin Seat if the Hall found out she’d done all this without their knowledge. She says as much on several occasions. The first time she mentions it will be in Chapter 8 of this book.
@115 – Anthony, read my post more thorough, I didn’t say //Leanne// , I’m refering to novel NS, where our subject thought to “help” those 2 prepare for their //test for the shal//. Read that part. And then you can relate back to my comment up here that even if the mistress of novices tried to smooth things with those two accepted, telling them that it was not by the book against the law, that was still abusing.
@116:
You’re right, I misread that. As far as that goes, its certainly abusive. So is about 90% of Aes Sedai training. Some of it is downright horrendous and certainly would cause the organization to be disbanded and the leadership prosecuted for child abuse if they existed in our real world. Abusive is a label that can be applied to the Aes Sedai institutionally. Its a bit disingenuous to apply the label to Elaida specifically, and not the Aes Sedai as a whole. And that includes every Aes Sedai who upholds the systemic abuse that is rampant within the Tower. That would probably include Moiraine and would definitely include Siuan, as Amyrlin.
Blue=griffindor
Red=slytherin
White, brown=ravenclaw
Everyone else=hufflepuff
And for completeness // Black: Deatheater. // :P
The Green’s are definitely Gryffendor though, and despite the fact there are strong arguments otherwise, I think that the Yellows are too. // Bravery and compassion are defining characteristics of both as much as they are Gryffendor. Even if the Yellows may not be quite so prone to running in to the middle of a dangerous situation as the Greens would be, but they will go to any who need them, regardless of possible danger to themselves. //
I would argue more that the 4-house system of Hogwarts was not so apt a comparison, but it kinda serves for the purpose. Really, you could probably just drop Hufflepuff entirely and bump the Greys to Ravenclaw (which is probably more appropriate in some ways):
// Like:
Blue/ Green/ Yellow: Gryffendor.
White/ Grey/ Brown: Ravenclaw
Red/ Black: Slytherin. //
I can’t remember how much information we have on // the three oaths and oath rod // at this point. So will treat it as a spoiler for now. Apologies if it is not.
One thing that stands out from this chapter (or, more accurately, from my memory + Silas’s commentary) is the fun of // trying to parse the information and statements of the various Aes Sedai. With the oath to not speak an untrue word vs their ability to circumvent that, everything they say has to be analyzed to ask if they are saying what you think they are saying. The idea of the Black Ajah, who logically we know early on must have a way around this oath, only complicates this. It acts similarly to our trying to piece together clues about who was at the Darkfriend Social, or interpret the prophesies and foreshadowing, or any of the other ways Jordan fleshes out his world // adds layers of depth to the world and the story… and much pleasure to the reader.
I can’t help myself. I keep reading Siuan as ‘Sue Ann’. I know that’s wrong but as I said, I can’t help myself.