Welcome back to Urithiru! It’s Willshaper Week up in here, as Venli starts to develop her powers. I won’t say control them, exactly, because she’s not that good at it yet, but she’s taking the first few steps. Also, Lift is back! (Sorry, those of you who dislike her. She’s one of my favorite characters, probably for much the same reasons y’all dislike her, so… oops.) Anyway, it’s a long chapter full of good stuff, so come on in and join the discussion!
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Heralds: Vedeledev (Vedel). Edgedancers (Abrasion, Progression). Loving/Healing. Role: Healer.
Kalak (Kelek). Willshapers (Transportation, Cohesion). Resolute/Builder. Role: Maker.
A: This seems pretty clear: Both of the Heralds this week reflect the presence and activity of a Knight Radiant (ish) of their Order—Kalak for Venli’s (and her cool stone manipulations), and Vedel for Lift. We won’t see Lift doing any healing for a couple of weeks, but this week she promises to try.
Icon: The Singer, for Venli’s POV.
Epigraph:
I remember so few of those centuries. I am a blur. A smear on the page. A gaunt stretch of ink, made all the more insubstantial with each passing day.
A: Even for the sharpest mind, the many years can run together a bit. Thousands of years, the first 2,500 or so involving centuries of torture interspersed with years (or decades) of battles and the last 3,500 spent hiding who he was and burdened with the guilt of abandoning a true companion… Well, that’s too many years to remember. It kind of boggles the mind.
P: Boggles the mind, indeed. 50+ years feels like forever some days… I can’t imagine living thousands of years.
A: Right? At least not with this going-flaky-on-me brain I’ve got, much less the creaky knees. (Okay, the Heralds probably don’t have creaky knees, but flaky brains? Absolutely.)
Chapter Recap
WHO: Venli
WHEN: 1175.4.9.2 (concurrent with and immediately following Chapter 79)
WHERE: Urithiru
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
RECAP: Alone on the 15th floor, Venli experiments with her Willshaping abilities. Searching for Cultivation’s tone, she finds the song that is the harmony of Cultivation and Odium; the stone before her forms an image of the first listeners striking out, away from the war and their gods. Soon after, she meets with Leshwi as usual; Leshwi reminds her that Raboniel’s plots are far more intricate and lofty than Venli can imagine, and their task is to make sure there’s a world left to inhabit when Raboniel is done.
Chilled, Venli checks in on the infirmary to find Rlain, Lirin, and Hesina in conflict over the news Dabbid has just brought of Kaladin’s injuries. At Timbre’s insistence, Venli suggests that she may be able to free Lift from her cell, and that her powers may still function. With Dabbid providing a cued distraction for the guards, Venli uses her Willshaping to create an opening in the back of Lift’s cell. Once freed, they meet up with Rlain and Dabbid, who will guide Lift to Kaladin. Elated by giving Lift her freedom, Venli asks Timbre if she can say the words yet, but is denied.
Chapter Chat—Remembrance and Revelation
The stones whispered to her that the place had once been called Ur. The word meant “original” in the Dawnchant. An ancient place, with ancient stones.
The stones had not been created by [the Sibling], though a grand project had reshaped them. Reshaped Ur, the original mountain that had been here before. The stones remembered being that mountain.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
A: This was so powerful to me—the stones remembering ancient history. What an experience for Venli, to feel their memories of being the mountain, and then of being reshaped to become the tower, with the Sibling running throughout like veins of metal and crystal. It’s still not clear whether the Sibling alone reshaped the mountain to become a physical body for themself, or whether they had help; I’m leaning toward the former, though the tower was clearly shaped with the intent of being a habitation for people. (I wish we knew for sure whether it was originally created for the Knights Radiant, or if it had previously belonged to the singers. I think, because of the Oathgates and such, that it was created for the Radiants—and also because I’m pretty sure we’d have heard from Raboniel about their prior claim, had such a claim existed. But I’m not 100% sure on that.)
In any event, I loved the discovery that the stones of the tower remember knowledge reaching back beyond the pages of history.
[…] Venli’s hands […] sank into the eager stone. Remember, the stones whispered. Remember what you have forgotten.
She remembered sitting at her mother’s feet as a child […]
A: There’s no need to quote the entire thing, but it’s all about memories of her childhood, her family, her people. It’s rather lovely, and includes one of only four mentions (that I can find) of her father before he left them to seek the eastern sea.
P: This is quite the touching moment, especially remembering her father.
A: I love the way it brings her a true revelation about herself and about Odium, which I suspect may be part of her turning point:
As a child, ambition and love had been like two sides of her face, each with its own vibrant pattern. To the sound of Odium’s rhythms, one side had shone, while the other withered. […]
It was in that moment that Venli saw for herself the depth of his lies. He claimed to be of all Passions, and yet where was the love she’d once felt?
A: It goes on in this vein, but that’s enough for the point. While Odium can stimulate many other emotions besides direct hatred, if you look at it closely, he only drives emotions that support self-centered behavior. Anything involving self-denial for the sake of another is just… not there.
P: The fact that she mentions love for her sister gives me so many feels! What happened to that love, Venli? You can’t put that entirely on Odium.
A: That love was subsumed by envy, long enough for Odium to slip in by means of Axindweth and Ulim. It breaks my heart to think about what she lost to that envy and all that followed.
[…] she listened to her mother’s songs in her mind. […] they reached backward through time. Through generations.
To her people, leaving the battlefield. Walking away rather than continuing to squabble over the same ground over and over. They hadn’t merely rejected the singer gods, they’d rejected the conflict.
A: This is so beautiful! Granted that the Voidspren and the Fused see them as traitors, it’s lovely to see Venli ignoring all that and seeing the heroism in their actions. It’s a little ironic, because self-sacrifice has never been her strong point, but her ancestors gave up an awful lot for the sake of giving their descendants a better future. (How fortunate it is that they left before their minds were broken, too!)
P: This whole scene is wrought with emotion. It gives me many feels and makes me ache for Venli, to “remember” her people abandoning the singers to try to preserve themselves. And for her to know that she single-handedly destroyed them.
A: Yeah, that’s the really painful part—knowing that her own actions brought about the very destruction that she’s admiring her first ancestors for avoiding!
[The stones] began to shake and vibrate to the sound of her rhythm, liquid […] The floor, ceiling, and walls before her rippled, and a trail of people formed from the stone. Moving, alive again, as they strode away from pain, and war, and killing.
Freedom. The stones whispered to her of freedom.
A: FREEDOM!! Okay, I know this is all manufactured in the mind of the author, but I love the way she’s now seeing the importance of freedom—the focus of her Ideals—everywhere: not merely for herself or her little group of followers, but for her ancestors, and even for a young human girl imprisoned by Raboniel. She doesn’t say it here, but I think she’s starting to really want freedom for the rest of the Knights Radiant, and maybe even the rest of the humans.
P: She truly absorbs the concept in time, doesn’t she? It gives me shivers. Though that could be the air conditioner.
[S]he had in front of her, in miniature, a sculpture of her ancestors striking out toward the unknown.
More, she had their songs. Because of her mother’s diligent and insistent teaching, the songs had not died with the listeners.
A: I love this moment. All the earlier years when she was so arrogant about her role as the keeper of songs are contrasted to her humble gratitude that Jaxlim was so persistent—and tying it to the involuntary sculpture is really delightful.
P: It is nice to see her appreciating the fact that she knows the songs rather than resenting it as she once did.
A: Much later… (the intervening bits are all discussed below)
Venli gestured for the Edgedancer to follow her—but the girl wavered. She seemed as if she was going to bolt away in another direction.
“Please,” Venli said. “We need you. To save a life. If you run now, he’ll die.”
“Who?”
“Stormblessed,” Venli said. “Please, hurry with me.”
P: Frankly, I’m surprised Lift didn’t bolt immediately. And I get the feeling that she was thinking, “Well, why didn’t you say so right away?” as soon as Venli said “Stormblessed.”
A: Agreed. It shows a little of Venli’s priorities at the moment—when she first spoke to Lift, her sole concern was “don’t tell anyone what I’m doing” and no mention of why. It’s only Lift’s sense of loyalty to someone who helped her that holds her there this long!
“You’re a traitor to them, then?” the girl asked her.
“I don’t know what I am,” Venli said. “Other than someone who didn’t want to see a child kept in a cage.”
P: I’m not crying, you’re crying.
A: Who, me? ::sniffle::
Also, Venli’s admission of her own confused sense of herself these days… that’s rather cool. She’s always had a lack of self-confidence deep inside, and she buried it under tons of arrogance and pretense. This is one of the few times she’s admitted to anyone but Timbre how uncertain she is of her own identity. That’s… kind of a revelation in itself.
The other two left, but he lingered, then hummed to Appreciation. “I’m sorry about what I said when you first saw me in the cell. You’re not selfish, Venli.”
“I am,” she said. “A lot of things are confusing to me these days—but of that fact I’m certain.”
“No,” he said. “Today you’re a hero. I know you’ve been through rough times, but today…” He grinned and hummed to Appreciation again, then ducked out after the others.
P: I think that Venli really needed to hear this from Rlain. I know I’m down on her a lot but she’s grown on me since Oathbringer and I really think she’s trying to atone for her sins. So this kind of comment would do wonders for her confidence, I believe.
A: Yes indeed! After just telling Lift she doesn’t quite know what she is, to have Rlain tell her that today, at least, she’s a hero? That’s got to feel pretty hopeful, even if she does remain painfully aware of her own selfishness, past and present.
Music, Mechanisms, and Manifestations of Light
It felt wrong to be using [Odium’s] Light to practice her Surgebinding, but the stones whispered that it was well. Odium and his tone had become part of Roshar, as Cultivation and Honor—who had not been created alongside the planet—had become part of it. His power was natural, and no more wrong or right than any other part of nature.
A: I have to say, I always felt like it was wrong too—but the stones have a point. Depending on how you look at it, either all the Shards were present or none of them where when Roshar was created. All Investiture is, in one sense, quite natural; perhaps for most purposes, the Intent of the Shard who provides it is immaterial to the one who uses it. Is it?
Venli searched for something else. The tone of Cultivation. Odium’s song could infuse her, fueling her powers and enflaming her emotions, but that tone… that tone had belonged to her people long before he’d arrived.
A: I’m more in sympathy with this viewpoint, in any case. The singers were the people of Cultivation and Honor long before Odium showed up to mess with things, and Cultivation’s tone is more hers than Odium’s could ever really be. IMO.
P: Oh, definitely. It’s interesting that she found a harmony between Cultivation’s tone and Odium’s tone while Navani was busy finding a harmony between Honor’s tone and Odium’s tone.
The tone snapped into her mind, Cultivation and Odium mixing into a harmony, and it thrummed through Venli.
A: Okay, permit me a rueful chuckle for Navani’s sake. She (and Raboniel) worked so hard to finally create the mix of Odium and Honor that become the Rhythm of War, but here with no special equipment, no elaborate theories, no complex experiments, none of the effort Navani had to expend, Venli just gets it. Obviously it’s a result of her unique situation—singer blood, trapped Voidspren, Nahel-bonded spren, all working together to give her a unique access to the Investiture of two different Shards at the same time. At the same time, I feel sorry for Navani, having to struggle so long to get this thing that Venli just… gets.
P: With little effort, even. Navani would be endlessly frustrated if she knew about this!
Spren and Shadesmar
Timbre vibrated with excitement inside Venli. The little spren was at it so loudly, Venli was certain the others would hear. How could they not?
P: They’ve just heard Dabbid speak during the confrontation between Rlain and Lirin. And Timbre reacted this way. This is Venli’s chance and Timbre’s trying to tell her!
A: It’s not the first time Timbre has tried to get her to speak up, but I think it’s the first time she seriously considers going along with it. SO exciting!!
Again the room grew quiet. All save for Timbre, practically bursting with sound. It’s time. It’s time. It’s time! When Venli spoke, she almost believed it was Timbre saying the words and not her. “What if,” she said, “I knew about an Edgedancer whose powers still seem to work? One who I think we can rescue?”
P: Our little Timbre is so excitable, isn’t she? Here is a chance for Venli to display her Radiance and Timbre is over the moon about it.
A: It’s so in line with the Willshaper ideals, too—she has the opportunity to free Lift from a cell, so that Lift can free Kaladin from illness, and at the same time shield a bunch of other people from possible consequences of a risky attempt to help Kaladin. It’s perfect—and it’s such a relief to see Venli finally take the chance. Timbre must have just about exploded when Venli spoke up!
Relationships and Romances
Venli entered, then grimaced and glanced toward the others inside. There was a new human here, one Venli didn’t recognize, who stood with his eyes down, not speaking.
A tension in the room was coming entirely from Lirin and Rlain, who faced off at the rear, Rlain humming softly to Betrayal.
What on Roshar?
“I can’t believe I’m hearing this,” Rlain said. “I can’t believe it. He’s your son.”
“My son is long dead, bridgeman,” Lirin said […]
P: This infuriated me when I first read it. It still infuriates. His son is not dead, he’s alive and in need of assistance and Lirin pretends like Kaladin’s nothing, like he’s nobody. Honor, but this makes me angry.
A: While I understand that reaction, from both readers and characters, I still see Lirin’s point. Kaladin has apparently turned his back on Lirin’s most deeply held values and in fact seems to be acting in direct opposition. That’s beyond “disappointing” in this setting, and in one sense he believes Kaladin has chosen not to be his son. Despite his words, though—as Venli will note shortly—he doesn’t feel that way himself. He’s terrified for Kaladin, and is throwing a ton of effort into being rough-and-tough on the outside to hide his fear.
“He doesn’t want to be my son anymore. If that’s the case, it’s difficult for me to see him as anything other than a killer and an agitator. Someone who recklessly endangered not just my family, but the lives of every human in the tower, while pursuing a vengeful grudge.”
P: What grudge? Against the Fused? That’s a bit more than a grudge. It’s a matter of survival.
A: I’m not entirely sure what Lirin is seeing as a grudge, but I’ll make a guess in a minute. First, though, it’s a plain fact that, in killing that Regal back in the surgery, Kaladin did directly endanger Lirin, Hesina, and Oroden. Without Leshwi’s unexpected intervention, they’d all three have been tortured and killed by Lezian, even if they couldn’t give the slightest hint as to where Kaladin had gone. Even with Leshwi’s intervention, all the people who could have been helped at Lirin’s infirmary were denied that option. (That, of course, is balanced by putting him in the Radiant infirmary to help there.)
Was it important to us and Kaladin (and the narrative) that he and Teft not be taken by the Regals? Absolutely. Was killing that Regal in the surgery the only way to do that? Maybe. It’s the only way Kaladin saw… and that very fact is part of what breaks Lirin: his son, trained as a surgeon, not only put his and his friend’s safety above that of his mother and baby brother, but his first resort was to kill. IMO, all the things that Kaladin has gone through (soldier, slave, bridgeman, soldier, Windrunner) conspire to make that a completely natural reaction, but that doesn’t exactly make it more palatable to Lirin. (I don’t know if drugging the Regal would have been an option, given the drugs they have available, and I’m pretty sure knocking him on the head would have been ineffective, so Kaladin might be right and that was the only resort. Just not sure about that.)
About the grudge… Since only a very, very few people (Kaladin, Navani, Raboniel, and a handful of Fused and Regals) know about the nodes that protect the Sibling, or what Raboniel is trying to do, or any of that, what could Kaladin’s attack at the well possibly look like? It looks like he’s got a grudge against Lezian, Leshwi, and/or Raboniel, and is doing crazy risky stunts to mess with them even though he can’t possibly beat them all. What he can do is make them angry, so they do things like putting Lezian’s Regals to watch the infirmary in an obvious intimidation move, and give Lezian’s troops an excuse to rough people up at the slightest provocation. It’s easy for the reader to forget how much more we know than people like Lirin.
“You would give him up for execution!”
“If that’s what is required, then so be it. I’ll do my job as a surgeon, then let Kaladin deal with the consequences of his actions. I’m finished being a pawn in games of death. For either side.”
P: Gah, I’m so #$%¥£&@ angry about this attitude! Kaladin isn’t a SIDE, you self-righteous twit. He’s your firstborn son, for Cultivation’s sake.
A: But if you put yourself in Lirin’s place… Kaladin has placed Lirin in an untenable position, particularly for one dedicated to preserving all life. Should he sacrifice his wife and baby for his adult son? Or should he allow his adult son to make his choices and take the consequences?
P: I definitely feel as if he should not expedite those consequences by putting Kaladin in a position to be captured while he’s unconscious and injured.
He sounded angry, but those were fearspren at his feet. Not angerspren.
P: I don’t give two crem pies what kind of spren pop up, or how Lirin feels. What he says is that he’d be willing to give his son up to the Fused so he could face the consequences of his actions. I am SO not okay with that.
A: Well, IMO he says that, but I doubt he entirely means it. He is, after all, packing a bag to go to Kaladin despite the knowledge that leaving the infirmary is extremely risky for him. He’s prepared to go with Rlain and Dabbid and do field surgery; as a surgeon, though, he’s well aware that Kaladin might need the kind of care that they simply can’t provide in some isolated hiding place. It’s also worth reminding ourselves that Lirin has no way of knowing the kind of terrible things Raboniel is prepared to do to the Knights Radiant, other than whatever Rlain assumes she’ll do.
He could say what he wanted but he loved his son.
P: *side eye* I don’t know if I’m in the minority here or what, but it feels to me like Lirin loves his son as long as his son does what Lirin thinks he should do. As soon as Kaladin tries to be his own person, Lirin’s ready to serve him up to the Fused, unconscious and dying.
A: Nope. I mean, I think that’s the way a lot of people read him, but I firmly disagree. This isn’t about “being his own person.” Kaladin could have picked a million other careers that Lirin might have seen as a waste of his talents, but he would have accepted those choices as merely disappointing. Sure, Lirin hoped he would be a surgeon, but he could have become a farmer, a caravaneer, a baker, a tailor, a… whatever, and Lirin would merely have rolled his eyes and thought it wasted potential. What Kaladin chose to do—become a soldier and kill people in all the cleverest and most brutal ways—is in direct opposition to, and violation of, Lirin’s most deeply held beliefs regarding the value of life.
(Also, no, Lirin is not “ready to serve him up to the Fused.” He’s ready to go try to save his life, while knowing that it may not be possible without long-term skilled care, which can’t be provided in his current location.)
P: I simply don’t see it that way. Kaladin chose the path he chose to protect, a foreshadowing of his chosen Radiant order. He tried to protect Tien but Lirin behaves as though Kaladin is some bloodthirsty killer, intent on destroying his family. I just can’t get on board with his viewpoint.
A: Unlike Lirin, we’re inside Kaladin’s head and we know his Ideals have all been about protecting. Lirin has a ways to go yet to accept the idea that it might be possible, much less necessary and acceptable, to kill in order to protect.
“It was going to catch up to Kal eventually,” Lirin said, his tone morose. “Most soldiers don’t die on the battlefield, you know. Far more die from wounds days later.”
P: This whole mentality is like Kaladin has this coming to him, like he deserves it for choosing the life of a spearman, a warrior. A Radiant. Even as a storming Knight Radiant, he can’t please his father. *incoherent swearing*
A: Pretty sure his father would have been delighted had he been an Edgedancer… Just sayin’.
And Lirin is correct once again—more soldiers die later of their wounds than die on the battlefield, especially given the extant technology. Lirin still isn’t used to Stormlight healing (though even if he were, it’s not happening right now). Under his antipathy toward violence as a means to accomplish anything, he’s deeply aware of the way soldiers usually die… which is probably another reason he hates the idea of his son being a soldier. Any parent would far rather think of their children dying of old age, than dying slowly and painfully of infection and battlefield trauma.
History and Culture: the Listeners
Listeners were not like humans, who grew slow as trees. Listeners grew like vines, quick and eager. By age three, she’d been singing with her mother. By age ten, she’d been considered an adult.
P: This is such a cool little factoid about the listeners.
A: Isn’t it though? I’m still questioning the relative wisdom of a ten-year-old, but… okay, 18- and 19-year-olds can be pretty unwise, too. Most people start adulthood with very limited experience or wisdom.
Singers/Fused
“Raboniel threatens to let the Pursuer have the humans […] To lord her advantage over us.”
“Perhaps,” Leshwi said […] “Perhaps not. Raboniel does not think like other Fused, Venli. She hears a much grander song. A skewed and twisted one, but one she seeks to sing without traditional regard for Odium’s plans or those of Honor, now dead.”
A: It’s so fascinating to hear Leshwi’s opinions of Raboniel. She clearly has a great deal of respect for the brilliant mind of the legendary Fused, but she sees the danger as well. Venli, with her limited experience, just sees it as sort of “jostling for position” like it’s a competition between more or less equal players, each trying to gain influence in their side of the larger conflict. Leshwi knows there’s no “equality” of any sort; Raboniel is smarter, more influential, more powerful, more brilliant, and more ambitious than Leshwi even wants to be.
P: It is interesting, isn’t it? Leshwi does see the danger; I remember her being so freaked out over the Lady of Pains showing up back in Alethkar. It made me dislike Raboniel before we even got to know her.
A: Right? And now that we know her… well, I’ve developed a certain respect for her, but I trust her about as far as I can throw an Oathgate.
“What are we watching Raboniel for, if not to understand how she’s trying to gain advantage over us? What is the purpose of my spying?”
“We watch,” Leshwi said, floating down to eye level with Venli, “because we are frightened. To Raboniel, the games of men and singers are petty things—but so are their lives. We watch her, Venli, because we want a world to remain when she is finished with her plots.”
Venli felt a chill, attuning the Terrors.
A: Yeah, you’d better be attuning the Terrors, girl! Leshwi’s perspective on Raboniel is… well, yeah. Terrifying. They’ve been in this gig together for 7,000 years, and while there’s no evidence that (among the hundreds or thousands of Fused) they’ve ever been particularly close, Leshwi has clearly been keeping an eye on Raboniel. Venli has been pretty crushed by the knowledge that her decisions destroyed what was left of the listeners after the Alethi war; she’s finally starting to register that Raboniel’s plans are so far beyond her own level of scheming they’re barely worth mentioning in the same context. Raboniel has her own goals, and while nominally she intends to have the Fused ruling the world, she’s working on some things that could destroy their world as thoroughly as the humans destroyed Ashyn… and she doesn’t really care. She’ll take incredible risks in her pursuit of ending the war, and if she “ends the war” by destroying everyone on both sides, well, okay. Yikes.
P: Right? She’ll burn it all to the ground if that’s what it takes to end the war. Makes me think of Hoid, who will do whatever it takes to accomplish his goals, whatever they may be.
A: So right. And such a frightening comparison. I sometimes wonder if Sanderson is giving us Raboniel as a foreshadowing of what Hoid will turn out to be.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
The Edgedancer was kept in the same cell Rlain had occupied not long ago. Venli could get through that wall with ease; she was in control of her powers enough for that. The real trick would be pulling off the rescue without revealing or implicating herself.
P: Getting caught is the big worry here. She has other plans she needs to be on with, so she can’t risk that for this. But she’s willing to try, and that’s a more heroic act by Venli than I’ve seen her do to date.
A: I really pity Venli here, even as I get frustrated with her. She’s absolutely terrified that someone will find out about her Radiant powers. Granted, there are those who would kill her in a heartbeat for that… offense, but there are others who would at least keep her secret. She just doesn’t quite trust anyone with that knowledge.
“How did you get a Shardblade?” Rlain asked softly, to Curiosity. “And how do they not know you have one?”
“It’s a long story,” Venli said. Mostly because she hadn’t thought of a proper lie yet.
P: Lying is hard, isn’t it, Venli? Only it shouldn’t be too difficult for you… you’ve been telling the singers lies for a year.
A: She’s pretty good at lies, for sure. Maybe she’s learned that you have to be pretty solid on your lie before starting telling it, if you don’t want to trip up on the truth!
“[…] I got it from a dead human. I bonded it while traveling to Kholinar, before the Fused found me and the others.”
“That was when they… they…” Rlain attuned the Rhythm of the Lost.
“Yes,” Venli said to the same rhythm. “When they took the rest of our friends. They left me because Odium wanted me to travel around, telling lies about our people to ‘inspire’ the newly awakened singers.”
P: There it is. Pattern would eat this up.
A: Half truth, half lie…
“Dabbid isn’t the person I’d put in charge of something like this,” he said. “Until today, I thought he was completely mute.”
“Is he trustworthy?”
“Absolutely,” Rlain said. “He’s Bridge Four.”
P: ALL of the warm fuzzies. All of them. Excuse me for a moment, I have something in my eye.
A: Awww. And yet… I can see Rlain’s concern. Dabbid would never intentionally betray them, but what might he do unintentionally? I can’t wait until he has the chance to speak Ideals of his own.
Timbre exulted in the Rhythm of Hope as Venli pushed her hand into the stone. It felt good, warm and enveloping. Unlike what happened with the Deepest Ones, Venli displaced the rock. It became as crem in her fingers, soft to the touch.
[…] she simply pushed her hand forward until it hit air on the other side. Then she pressed with her other hand and pulled the two apart, forming an opening straight through the stone—the normally hard rock curling and bunching up before her touch.
P: How incredibly difficult must it be for her to try to learn about her powers with no one to teach her? Having only a vague idea what her surge can do and just playing around until she figures it out. Kudos to Venli here.
A: It’s slightly humorous to compare the beauty of what the stones created with her at the beginning of the chapter with the brute-force method she uses here. But she is learning. I cracked up at Timbre pulsing to Consolation over her crude efforts.
“Can I say the words now?” she asked Timbre.
The pulse indicated the negative. Not yet.
“When?” Venli asked.
A simple, straightforward pulse was her answer.
You’ll know.
P: This was so frustrating! I wanted Venli to level up so badly!
A: It was so cool to have her take the risk of freeing Lift, after her earlier realization that she couldn’t honestly speak the words of her Second Ideal while she was “willing to ignore the need of a child locked in a cage.” I’m not entirely certain I understand why (other than narrative necessity) she couldn’t say it now, though. She not only freed that child, she did it so that someone else could be healed, even though she herself stands to gain nothing by it. Does it need to be “freedom solely for the sake of freedom” rather than “freedom because my friend needs you to help his friend”?
Brilliant Buttresses
Venli whispered to the Rhythm of Pleading, “but you have to promise you won’t tell anyone what I’ve done. You won’t tell them about the powers I’m using. Not even other Radiants. They think I’m cutting you out with a Shardblade.”
“What are you?” the human whispered in Alethi.
“Promise me.”
“Fine, promised. Done. Hurry. The guards are eating, and they didn’t even share none of it.”
P: Poor Lift never has enough to eat! This is just like her, to begrudge the guards not sharing their lunch.
A: You just knew there would be humor once Lift got involved!
Dabbid shook his head, then knelt before the girl. “Healing. It works?”
“Eh!” she said. “You can talk!”
He nodded.
“Say ‘buttress,’” she told him. “It’s my favorite word.”
P: Of course, we had to include this!
A: Absolutely! “Buttress.” Has nothing to do with anything, but say it anyway!
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, and hope to join you there! Next week we’ll be back with chapter 84, in which Navani sets traps and experiments with conjoined spren—and makes a fascinating incidental discovery.
Alice lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband and two kids. Also, she is delighted to finally see some sunshine, even if it is only about 70°. At least there are no major floods. Yet.
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. She’s thoroughly enjoying the baseball season. Go, Yankees! Links to her other writing are available in her profile.
Lirin, ugh! I can’t. I just can’t…
While I understand Lirin’s real feeling’s on the matter, the fact he says the VERY hypocritical “Kaladin should SUFFER from his actions” is what draws the lines for ALOT of readers. This is the same man who could have killed Roshan back in Hearthstone and fixed his problems but saved him instead, even if these actions cost him both of his sons. this is the man whose words about saving ANYONE in need, no matter their status or what they had done have been haunting Kaladin for years. HIs words here, and his downright refusal, even if it’s out of fear, to help is way out of line for him, and makes him a hypocrite and down right cruel.
Hang on a moment — Venli doesn’t get Rhythm of War. That particular force is Odium + Honor..but what Venli gets to is Odium + Cultivation. I don’t think we have a name for that combination. I remember wondering about it, when they did discover how to make RoW, and forgot that Venli had attained it in this previous chapter.
So if War is hatred/passion bound by rules and honor, what is cultivation/growth fueled by passion? Or passion/hatred directed towards growth? Rhythm of Heroism, maybe? (I don’t think “love” works in this context.)
I am with those incensed at Lirin’s treatment of his elder sons. While I can understand his position here somewhat – Kaladin _did_ put his parents and baby brother in mortal danger, and it was practically a miracle that they survived unscathed. However, Lirin’s sheer self-centredness when he is confronted with Kal doing something that he disagrees with infuriates me. I still can’t forgive that his reaction to Kaladin joining the army to try to protect terrified Tien was: ” How can you do this to _me_?!” And not a word to the poor boy who was targeted because of his shenanigans. But he couldn’t be a surgeon, so he clearly didn’t count as much in his father’s mind. Oh, and in RoW he even retconned Tien into somebody who could and should have been his apprentice! Argh!
I am very intrigued by the stones telling Venli that her ancestors used to mold them with surges back at the dawn of time. I guess that this alludes to the “betrayal” of singers by spren that may have contributed to their conflict with humans breaking out or even been the consequence of it. While it currently looks like humans were at fault originally, I suspect that tsituation wasn’t as clear-cut. Honor and Cultivation had their reasons to side with humans, I am sure.
It certainly seems that Raboniel mellowed out a lot from who she used to be, though. In the end she proved to be far less ruthless than advertised. Mainly due to her distrust of Odium, I imagine, but still.
Excellent discussion, as usual, ladies!
I do think we see Lirin at some of his worst moments here, but I think the hate he gets is undeserved.
His beliefs are incredibly important to him and they shape how he views everything (even his son).
Do I think he’s wrong about not fighting their oppressors? Yes and no. Obviously evil should be fought. But what’s the point of trying when it would end in needlessly getting innocents slaughtered, without accomplishing anything?
I think Alice made some really good points about what Lirin knows vs. what the reader knows – we see a hero with superpowers who will never give up, while Lirin sees his son who is fundamentally opposed to his moral world view and endangering others while committing violence.
It’s a lot more complicated and unclear than a lot of people give it credit for.
(Also this discussion should be interesting lol!)
@3 David_Goldfarb: It makes me think of poisonous plants or strangling vines. Plants consuming everything (not really relevant, just the imagine your comment gave me).
@5 The problem is how he seems to treat both Kal and Tien. while way of kings was Kal’s perspective, so we don’t really know how he treated Tien, it did seem that once Tien couldn’t be his apprentice, well that was it. he was essentially not important to Lirin, to the point that there was only like one interaction between him and Tien in the book, and that was just saying how energetic Tien was. While he was devastated that Tien was recruited, he seemed more upset that all their plans went out the window when Kal decided to go with him, even saying “how can you do this to me?!” With Kal, he seems more upset that Kal doesn’t follow HIS morales and beliefs. Notice that his inital argument when Kal killed the regal was “how dare you kill in MY infirmity” not that you endangered your mother and brother.
Leshwi’s view of Raboniel sounds more like Gavilar, although he mainly wanted to be great himself, which she doesn’t really seem to care about that much. He wanted to become immortal and be famous forever, she knows that being immortal isn’t that great. Leshwi probably doesn’t really understand what Raboniel wants, and fears her more because of it.
Lirin is trying to convince himself that it would be smarter not to help Kaladin, but he doesn’t really follow his own advice. Since we don’t see his point of view saying one thing and doing another is the only way to show his inner conflict.
Thanks as always, ladies.
I agree with Alice on Lirin. I hate the things Lirin says of course, but we know from the fear spren he doesn’t mean what he says. And Kaladin did put not only his family in mortal danger, but everyone from Hearthstone to save Teft. Yes, we needed it for the narrative, but it was a terrible thing to do. Of course he’s angry at Kaladin for risking the lives of so many. Lirin has suffered from losing Tien, blames himself, and that colors everything he feels about Kaladin.
Do we know if Lirin believes you can’t kill even in self defense? This is an actual war. I suppose he doesn’t know the Fused will either kill or enslave everyone but I can’t imagine what he thinks is going to happen.
So, should I start shipping Rlain with Venli or is that just a non-starter?
I really love the stuff with Venli in this chapter, especially the revelation about Odium and the distinction between passions and love.
Before I realized the pun, (unintentional) I was going to say that Lirin is very clinical in how he views the world. He has his ideals, his son has transgressed them in what he sees as a very black and white way, and that’s it. It’s his perogative to feel that way (and I do truly understand is disgust/weariness with the constant cycles of violence he feels they are all sucked into), but I still think the way he TREATS Kaladain because of that is a very different issue. And even if deep down he is scared or loves him or whatever…in some ways it’s what you DO/SAY that really matters.
I don’t really have the time/energy to go into it all though!
@11 – I thought WoB was that Rlain was gay (and paired with somebody else although that might be a spoiler), so…yeah. A non-starter.
(That said I still inexplicably ship Kaleshwi lol).
When Lirin said he could give Kaladin something anti-inflammatory, I mentally grumbled a little because I have a bleeding disorder that renders anti-inflammatory medications (at least those around here) strictly off-limits to me, which is unfortunate because I have chronic inflammation that contributes to my hand/arm/knee pain.
I generally do not enjoy the Venli PoV chapters (be it a flashback or current chapter). However, I enjoyed Chapter 83. Probably because I enjoy reading Brandon’s scenes of different surgebinding (or for that matter, when the Fused use Voidlight). The thoughts Venli heard from the stones and Venli feeling the stones’ memory was the cherry on top of the sundae for me.
At this point, I still cannot consider Venli a hero. To me, a hero’s actions have to come from doing something because they believe it is right. I believe that Venli did not free Lift because she thought it was right. IMO, Venli freed Lift because it furthered Venli’s plans, whatever those plans will turn out to be. (I think Venli believes that if Kaladin is healed, then perhaps he will find a way to free the other
Knights Radiant. Such act would give Venli and her followers with the needed distraction to try to leave Urithiru. Perhaps, my dislike of Venli is clouding my opinion.
Speaking of characters I dislike, we have Lirin. I hate him more than I hate Venli. I agree with Paige’s take on Lirin. Paige said “I don’t know if I’m in the minority here or what, but it feels to me like Lirin loves his son as long as his son does what Lirin thinks he should do. As soon as Kaladin tries to be his own person, Lirin’s ready to serve him up to the Fused, unconscious and dying.” Amen, Paige. From a story-telling perspective, I understand the need for Kaladin to save Lirin at the end of RoW. Nevertheless, I personally would have smiled if Kaladin could not reach Lirin before Lirin became a human pancake. I do not think there is anything that Lirin can do in the future that will change my opinion of him.
Alice. I disagree with you. I think that Lirin was willing to go to Kaladin so he can learn where Kaladin is. I think at this point, Lirin has it in the back of his mind that he would give up Kaladin’s location to the Fused if Lirin could leverage that in his role as surgeon.
I am in the camp that Kaladin had no other option than killing the Fused in the infirmary. It was the only way to save Teft.
Thanks for reading my musings.
aka the musespren
In which Alice feels like she’s arguing over Cadsuane again…
Steven @2 – I must have missed that. Where does Lirin say that “Kaladin should suffer from his actions,” again? Oh, right. He doesn’t say that at all. You’re not only putting words in his mouth, you’re talking like he should have been able to see the future and know that saving Roshone’s life would definitely destroy his family. Also, what’s with “his downright refusal to help”? He’s packing a bag to risk his own life by leaving the infirmary to go do surgery (if necessary) on Kaladin; his only conflict with Rlain is that he knows there’s a possibility he can’t do enough in Kaladin’s primitive hiding place, and wants the possibility of bringing him to the infirmary to remain open.
David @3 – Poor proofreading on my part (along with revision artifacts – oops). I didn’t mean to say that Venli had found the Rhythm of War, but that she’d just… stepped right into the harmonized tones of two different Shards, when Navani had had to work and struggle and theorize and experiment to even prove that kind of harmonization could exist. And no, as far as I know we don’t have a name for it. Yet. Navani refers to the combination of Cultivation and Honor as “the song of science” – which I assume is correct, but we’ll see. I really have no idea what to call the harmony of Cultivation and Odium. For what it’s worth, here’s how Navani describes the tones of Cultivation and Honor:
So… is it possible that Cultivation, with growth and change, could modify the hatred into more productive and positive passions? Or would the hatred merely expand and grow and corrupt more?
Isilel @@.-@ – I think you’re extrapolating Lirin’s attitude toward Tien with insufficient data. Remember that we only see their childhood from Kaladin’s perspective, and while he loves his brother, there’s no particular reason he should focus on the relationship between Lirin and Tien, any more than he did Hesina and Tien – or for that matter, Lirin and Hesina, though that got a little development. Childhood memories tend to be self-centered, so unless there was something seriously off in Lirin’s treatment of Tien, there’s no reason for young Kaladin to think about it. For that matter, given how much he loved his little brother, I think it’s more probable to assume that Lirin treated Tien equally well; if he’d been as uncaring as you like to assume, I’d think Kaladin would have been angry about the poor treatment Tien received. But I don’t believe for a minute that he was treated poorly.
goddessimho @11 – I think that’s a non-starter. Rlain considers it at one point, and is… not enthralled by the idea; “nauseated” is the word he uses. It’s mostly a matter of “do we have a duty to rebuild the listener race?” and becomes moot when they discover that more than a thousand of their people survived.
Andrew @15 – I suspect that may be the reason Venli still couldn’t say her second Ideal: she had an ulterior motive. She did want a reason to free Lift, and she’s glad to have done it for both reasons, but she didn’t do it just because it was the right thing to do. I still have a few issues to work out with that, but as near as I can tell, that’s the catch.
Also: You seriously think the only reason Lirin was willing to go to Kaladin was to find out where he was so he could tattle to the Fused? Are you kidding me?? That’s insane. No. No way.
I believe this is foreshadowing, among other things, of what happens to Hoid at the end of the book.
“… once been called Ur.” That’s another callout to the old Semitic religion that also gave us the names of the Unmade (e. g. Sja-Anat from the Ugaritic/Phoenician goddess Anat, daughter of El and probable source of the Greek Athena).
@DavidGoldfarb: I think Venli discovered the Rhythm of Freedom. That’s the ideal she talks about constantly in this chapter (and the ruling ideology of the Willshapers).
Carl @17 – Foreshadowing re: Hoid, eh? Well, could be… I hope I survive long enough to find out what the deal really is with Hoid, though. I like him. I don’t trust him. He’s undoubtedly got plans he hasn’t shared with anyone else, and I’m not convinced that they’re actually good for anyone but himself. I’m also not convinced that, good or bad, he’s got the ability to pull off the grand scheme he’s working.
I don’t think the harmony of Odium and Cultivation is likely to be the Rhythm of Freedom. That’s too closely tied to the Willshapers. I keep trying to figure out what the third leg of the tripod would be, if two of them are War and Science… The combination of passion/hatred and growth/progress keeps making me think of Conquest or Colonization, but those both seem too close to War, while Exploration or Investigation is too close to Science. (Heh. Maybe Cultivation/Odium makes “Exploration” and Honor/Cultivation/Odium – a.k.a. War/Science/Exploration makes “Conquest” or something. But I could spend years guessing and still be wrong, and then when I see the actual answer it’ll seem totally obvious.)
@16 I mean, that’s what I felt his argument is saying when he says ““If that’s what is required, then so be it. I’ll do my job as a surgeon, then let Kaladin deal with the consequences of his actions.” that’s where I take my “Kaladin must suffer from his actions.” and where people have gotten the idea that he would sell Kaladin out. It’s the “deal with the consequences of his actions” part that has everyone upset with him. It comes off that he’s saying he would sell Kaladin out. Also,thinking about it, I just thought of a possible reason why Lirin is so afraid of consequences now.. Lirin should have thought about the consequences of his own actions when he saved Roshone. He know that Roshone was a petty sack of crem back than, that he would have come up with some kind of revenge. So it does bring up the question if Lirin is blaming Kaladin because of his own choices years ago; that he’s afraid of consequences now because of what happened with Tien, meaning he now thinks its better to just appease the tyrants and survive than doing what is right. I say this because I don’t believe that Lirin from the past would have sold Teft out, because he was a patient, but now, it comes off he would have just to save his own family. It’s a possibility and a thought.
Wetlandernw @16:
But we have seen Tien with Hessina and she was the one who spoke about his future, about sending him to the city, etc. And Lirin’s behavior on the day of Tien’s conscription + his mental retcon of how Tien should have been his apprentice are quite damning re: his view of and relationship with his younger son and how he had no use for the person he truly was. Kaladin may be the PoV, but what was shown to us through his eyes illustrates the relationships in his family sufficiently to make conclusions.
Concerning Venli – she did have unique advantage over Navani and Raboniel, due to the 2 spren sharing her gem-heart, which made light-mixing not just easier, but entirely intuitive. Also, she wasn’t mislead by the perception that Cultivation and Odium were opposites, as the latter and Honor were believed to be. It is also very ironic that we know that her reputation of a “scholar” and inventor among the listeners was all lies, but now she is genuinely discovering new ground-breaking things and not even thinking about it.
AndrewHB @15:
But the only reason Kaladin killing that Regal didn’t spell death for his whole family is because Sanderson was obviously pulling his punches. Kal did very much trade his life for theirs, even if it didn’t occur to him in the heat of the moment. It was a complex situation. However, Lirin’s record of behavior when his sons failed to vicariously fulfill his own dreams makes me disinclined to give him the benefit of doubt. Intentionally or not, his love for his children has been presented as very conditional so far.
Steven Hedge@19:
Lirin pretending that his sons have suffered because he was standing up to power for high-minded moral reasons, instead of because he had comitted theft/fraud is yet another example of his hypocrisy.
While I’m not sure if Sanderson would go that way, Lirin turning in Kaladin would be a twist, and I actually could see it. If he felt it would save more lives, I think he might be able to coldly justify it to himself.
(It’s funny how some characters can get under our skin like that…this is also reminding me of some of the Egwene debates lol. But I like both Egwene and Venli so oh well. But I’m definitely more on the anti-Lirin side of things, or at least on the side of – whatever his intentions, his actions are objectively harmful and his good intentions do not make him a good father.)
I definitely also got the impression Venli can’t say the words yet because she still was doing things to at least partially benefit her own plans (I do think people can have more than one motive). Not that I think those plans are bad, per se, but it was still a more opportune moment. But she’s growing.
Another thing abut ‘ur’ is that the prefix ‘Ur’ is sometimes use to mean the formative example of something. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrExample
So, if Cultivation is growth/change and Odium is passion, the combination of the two would either be obsession or chaos. I’m thinking here that passion essentially removes any limitations or, to put it another way, increases the trait exponentially. Unrestricted growth/change leads to chaos if it is not focused. Excessive focus on a single idea goes from concentration to obsession.
Jean-Paul Sartre said in the late 1940s about his fellow Parisians from the Occupation years that one was either a Resister or a Collaborator, there was no neutral option. I don’t doubt he would able to spot quickly which category Lirin falls into.
To me, Lirin is a jerk. He realizes it – at least partially – by the end of the book, but I feel like he’s still got some growing to do. Fear can do bad things to a person, so here’s hoping for better as he starts to overcome his fear.
As for Lift – I love Lift. Humor is subjective, and I know not everybody laughs at her antics like I do. But I love her. When she asked Dabbid to say “buttress” I had to put the book down for a moment to recover. Absolutely one of funniest moments in the book!
@Lisamarie wrote, “Another thing abut ‘ur’ is that the prefix ‘Ur’ is sometimes use to mean the formative example of something. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrExample“
That’s a reference to the Sumerian city of Ur, which was the original home of Abraham in the Hebrew tradition, thus the origin of the Jews — and thus, the origin of all the Abrahamic religions, including Islam and Christianity.
I just looked up Ur. Apparently the name comes from Sumerian words meaning “abode of Nanna” (the moon god). I wonder if Brandon means it to be connected to the moons of Roshar.
From a completely non-religious view: I have interpreted Ur or often Urth used in SFF as a reference back to earth. I had no knowledge of the religious background for it. That seems more aligned with what Brandon might be using as inspiration.
RogerPavelle @22, I think you’re on the right track with Obsession or Chaos, but remember also that Odium is negatively oriented passions. Dark, angry obsession–Vengeance? Destructive chaos–Anarchy? Destructive, unrestrained growth makes me think of cancer, but I can’t figure out how to link that into an appropriate name.
Ur- is a Germanic prefix, not the city.
@27 tiornys
Both chaos and obsession can be negative and destructive. To me, it takes a huge effort for them no to be so. And I agree with you about tying it all to cancer, but I’m not sure why you feel that isn’t an appropriate name in and of itself.
@birgit, could be, but considering the Tower is a city, I find it more likely that it’s named after the Sumerian settlement of the same name, especially considering that ancient Rosharan entities have Semitic names (e. g. Moelach=Moloch, Nergaoul=Nergal). None of them have Proto-Indo-European-derived names (as, for instance, you can find on Scadrial).
I also thought it was interesting that the information that “Ur” is a word in dawnchant (and its translation, “original”) was casually tossed out there in passing. That leads to a few questions that might be pursued:
(1) Original *what*? As one potential candidate, I recall that there’s a worldhopper-pool mural near the room housing the Sibling’s heart, and have for some time wondered if the presence of such a mural indicates that there was a worldhopper pool at that location at some point in time. (IIRC there is also one in Aimia where Rysn encountered the dawnshard.) But dawnchant, as the language of pre-human singers, might even predate Honor and Cultivation’s presence on Roshar, making this the “original” something made by Adonalsium. Or, perhaps this is where Cultivation (or Honor) first arrived.
(2) How does Venli know that it’s a dawnchant word? Her envoyform abilities provide translation skills when talking to live people, but does it extend to languages not known by those speaking them? Or does the soul of the stone somehow convey this?
(3) If I remember correctly, we don’t have a great sense for whether the stoneworking abilities of the ancient singers were imparted by spren or not. (Wasn’t Ishar involved in the creation of the Nahel bond itself?) Perhaps one of the possibilities is a rhythm-based magic system, where speaking (singing?) dawnchant to the Rhythm of Adonalsium grants Command/Intent-based control over stone with the Investiture drawn by the rhythm+tone. Just as we saw in Elantris when the earhquake caused the Chasm and broke the Elantrians’ access to the magic system, the shattering and/or the arrival of new shards to Roshar would change the rhythm of the planet and block access to the ancient singers’ stoneshaping abilities, and the discovery of the combination of the rhythms of all three shards would reopen access to this skill. It seems unlikely that this is actually the case, though, since we have some data about the spren abandoning the singers that we are meant to assume is related to the loss of stoneshaping ability.
(4) (Only relevant if my wild theory is correct, but) we know that the creation of the Fused is only a few generations removed from the arrival of humans from Ashyn on Roshar. Since the dawnchant was the predominant singer language at the time of the arrival of humans, wouldn’t it make sense that the “ancient language” of the Fused is in fact, the dawnchant? But Venli says nothing about them being related, here … and I don’t remember seeing anything to give an indication that the Fused’s language would have evolved since when they were first created. How does Venli know that Ur is dawnchant but not connect it to the Fused ancient language?
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Personally, I would say that the blend of Odium and Cultivation would be the Rhythm of Vengeance, or possibly even the Rhythm of Sadism. Pairing Odium’s raw hatred with Cultivation’s long-term planning and organically constructive mindset would make someone who doesn’t lash out in immediate wrath, but who instead builds a meticulous plan to ensure that the object of his hatred suffers to the utmost extent possible.
@beekay: I like to remind myself from time to time that the characters often know less than I do. I suspect Venli actually knows less about the ancient history of Roshar than the Fused or the readers. After all, the Listeners seemingly forgot everything except the Songs. They didn’t even remember that the Fused existed.
Hot take: BOTH Lirin and Kaladin are selfish. Yeah I said it