Welcome back to the chapter-by-chapter reread of The Hobbit, which is now concluded with this discussion of The Battle of the Five Armies, a.k.a. the adaptation of the last seven chapters.
Previously: we reread The Hobbit chapter-by-chapter (and The Lord of the Rings before it). I liked An Unexpected Journey more than I expected, but found The Desolation of Smaug to be like butter that has been scraped over too much bread—which is apparently the reverse of the general critical consensus.
What about this movie, the last adapting The Hobbit and the last Tolkien movie we can expect for the foreseeable future? (Before someone makes the inevitable Silmarillion-in-fifty-parts joke: it would have to be literally over the dead bodies of both Christopher Tolkien and his son, and even then I wouldn’t count on it.) Behind the jump, I’ll discuss what I thought the movie was trying to do, how well it achieved that, and a bit of what might have been. As always, spoilers for the movies and everything Tolkien (The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, and various posthumous tidbits).
What I Think the Movie Was Trying to Do
Let’s start with what I think was behind some of the changes to the movie—which are, by and large, reasonable things to want to address, so credit where credit is due. Well, except the whole concept of making three movies in the first place. (Obligatory link to 538 comparing how many minutes per page were expended in a number of recent book adaptations.)
First: there are literally no women in Tolkien’s book. None. And even when you add in LotR’s Appendices for this time period, that only gets you Galadriel. So creating Tauriel and giving both of them something to do, that makes sense.
And while there’s basically no detail in either The Hobbit or LotR about Galadriel’s abilities in battle, the hints we get are tantalizing. Way back in the day, I asked people what missing scene they’d like to read, and my own choice was Galadriel throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur after the Ring was destroyed. I wanted to see Galadriel being powerful and effective and active, something she’s denied in the text proper. Similarly, though Tauriel was created out of whole cloth for the movie, I liked her more than I expected in the second movie, and I thought her character had a lot of promise.
On another note, as we discussed in the reread, the Battle of the Five Armies uses a lot of elements that later showed up in LotR’s battles: unnatural darkness, evil flying creatures, unexpected aid from ground forces, Eagles, a pattern of strong reversals, and a POV character being knocked out. In addition, both this battle and Helm’s Deep take place in relatively constrained spaces before a fortified entrance to a geological formation. So it makes sense that the movie writers would want to avoid a been-there done-that battle scheme and give watchers something different.
Finally, any consideration of The Hobbit in the context of LotR must grapple with the different tones between them. This is more of an issue early, but still something I was wondering about—we recently read The Hobbit out loud to SteelyKid (now six and in first grade), and I happened to read her the last chapter, which is pretty sunny.
So how did this work out in practice? Well…
The tl;dr Version
The Good
Martin Freeman. The women of Lake-town, who said, “Hey, we’re going to fight too!” when they were bundled off to the caves. Alfred not, contrary to my expectation, getting a gruesome death. Thorin, Fili, and Kili ending up dead, as is only canonically right and proper. The mostly-empty disarray of Bag End, which set the right tone of dislocation and dark-but-not-too-dark, leading up to the ending that transitioned into Fellowship.
The So-So
I appreciated the swiftness of opening in medias res with Smaug attacking Lake-town—in effect, that sequence was the prologue, breaking the pattern of a flashback taking that position—but it was a little disorienting, especially since I hadn’t rewatched the movies since I saw Desolation in theaters last year.
The Bad
Basically… everything else.
The Much, Much Longer Version
Smaug
Since this opens the movie, might as well talk about it first.
It’s nice that Smaug got to talk smack at Bard a bit. And there was a lot of fire and swooping and whatnot.
But two things distracted me. First: all that setup about the giant fixed crossbow on the roof in the last movie, and then it’s not even mentioned here? Second: all of my parental instincts were so viscerally enraged at Bard using his kid as a guide for his arrow that I could barely see straight. I know, I know, normally I’m very much on board with “save the world not an individual,” but it seems unlikely to me that a shoulder would actually work for that purpose, so it was just the filmmakers tossing in “hey, terrified kid in peril!” to make things more ~~dramatic~~. Plus, doing that to your kid!
Otherwise, as I noted above, this was effectively the prologue, and having it set off like that further emphasized to me that the three-movie structure was all wrong. Two movies, and split them at Bilbo getting to the bottom of the tunnel and Smaug revealing himself.
The Women
Like I said, I am bang on board with the idea of (1) having women in the movie and (2) giving them something to do. But.
Both Galadriel and Tauriel end up having to be rescued by men because they are distracted by their feelings for a man—Tauriel has to be rescued twice, once by Kili and once by Legolas. Galadriel is too busy cooing over Gandalf to get up off the ground and fight (it remains really weird to me that the filmmakers ship them), and Tauriel’s quite successfully whirlwinding her way through orcs until she starts calling for Kili instead of paying attention to her surroundings.
Worse, when Galadriel finally gets back into things, her exercise of power makes her temporarily go to the dark side—her clothes and hair change to black, the lighting goes weird, all that. This isn’t a temptation scene like Frodo offering her the Ring; she’s wielding her ordinary powers against evil, and ought to be able to do that without being scarily dangerous, just like Gandalf does.
Otherwise I can’t muster up many thoughts or feelings about the Dol Guldur section, except that it was surprisingly short (not an objection!). Yes, we already know from prior movies that the Nazgûl being there makes no sense, and yes, we already know that Sauron did not have to be a dark and fiery spirit because he had a body at this point in canon. At this point, I just shrugged and moved on.
The Battle
I was completely unable to follow the geography here, which could just be me, because I’m not good at that kind of thing generally. But it was distracting and made it harder for me to sink into the movie.
First, one of the sources of orcs was Mount Gundabad. This does actually appear on Tolkien’s maps, up at the top end of the Misty Mountains, but I had no fucking clue where it was when I was watching the movie.
(I here delete several paragraphs trying to figure out if it was remotely possible for Legolas and Tauriel to have got there and back. The upshot is: yes, if they are able to make themselves magically near-weightless while riding double, just as when walking on snow, and if their horse is several times as good as a present-day horse trained for endurance riding and can, I don’t know, eat lembas to survive.)
Second, I am fairly sure I heard someone claim the Mountain was strategically important because Rivendell was to the north. This was probably a vast simplification of the explanation in Appendix A of LotR:
Among many cares [Gandalf] was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?
…
So it was that when the War came at last the main assault was turned southwards; yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron might have done great evil in the North, if King Dáin and King Brand had not stood in his path.
But, take “where the hell is Gundabad?”; add “did they move the Lonely Mountain to be south of Rivendell?!”; and then toss in “why are there mountains apparently within view of, ahem, The Lonely Mountain,” and I was just completely adrift in space.
I also found the logistics of the battle very confusing. As I said: I recognize the impulse behind moving the focus out of the valley before the Front Gate. But it made keeping track of the action below difficult. It seems that the movie decided to make five armies by ditching the wolves, which are indeed the fifth in the book, and adding another orc army. So after the second batch of orcs showed up, I was convinced that there was going to have to be a late arrival of another set of ground forces from who-knows-where, because from what I remembered seeing of Thranduil, Dáin, and Bard’s forces, they were already outnumbered by the first army, and then when another arrives… even the Eagles and Beorn didn’t seem sufficient to take on an entire additional army, especially as we only got the tiniest glimpse of them in action.
I realize the justification of making the focus on the individual fights was that the orcs needed their leader making plans, but “mindless slaughter achieved by sheer force of numbers” seems entirely within the capabilities of your ordinary orc, leader or no. I’m not saying this couldn’t have worked, I’m saying that what I was shown didn’t seem to add up.
Okay, enough of that. What did I think of the emotional weight of moving the fight to a series of one-on-one confrontations?
Fili and Kili… enh. I honestly prefer the image of them “fall[ing] defending [Thorin] with shield and body,” to an unnecessary display of wanton cruelty (Fili) and an interminable slo-mo impalement trying to save someone who only needed help because she got distracted looking for you (Kili). But, whatever.
Thorin: the fight on the ice was different and had some neat bits, but when he managed to get Azog under the ice and was just standing there afterward, all I could do was mentally chant at him, “get off the ice, get off the ice, get off the ice!” So it was kind of disappointing when I turned out to be right.
At least the movie preserved the good bits of Thorin’s farewell to Bilbo? I didn’t think it was as good as Boromir’s death scene, but as you can tell I was seriously emotionally detached from the movie at this point, so that context makes it hard to do a fair comparison of the scenes on their own. (The farewell, and this movie in general, also tossed quite a bit of bait to the Bilbo/Thorin shippers. Not my ship, and I honestly hadn’t seen the potential for it before this movie, but here, yeah.)
Also, I entirely lost track of the fourth dwarf in there; I have no idea where he was during Thorin’s fight. I liked that Bilbo threw rocks, but I hated that he didn’t get to yell “The Eagles are coming!” in the midst of battle and get everyone else to take up the cry. One of the most stirring high-fantasy moments of the book, gone.
Really, my stirring high-fantasy images from the end of the book are: “The Eagles are coming!”; Fili and Kili dying to protect Thorin; and Thorin buried under the Mountain, the Arkenstone on his breast and Orcist on his tomb, provided by Bard and Thranduil. And I didn’t get any of those. They are minor notes, I admit, but I missed them.
Speaking of stirring high-fantasy images: this isn’t in The Hobbit proper, but as I’ve said before, I always had a fondness for Dáin based on what we get out of the LotR appendices: killing Azog and looking into Moria, and also dying during the War of the Ring, “standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.” So, as you can imagine, I was not impressed with his portrayal in this movie.
Let’s go back to the big picture. The main things the Battle needed to do were: redeem Thorin (check); defeat the Orcs (check); reestablish the King under the Mountain and Dale (check). Thorin’s redemption scene was, of course, vastly overdone, but I expected that: the filmmakers hire by-and-large excellent actors[*] and then too often don’t trust them to act.
[*]Except maybe finding a good fit for the actors playing the Elves. In previous discussions, I’ve said how puzzling I find Elrond and Thranduil, and Legolas was really remarkably wooden in this movie—I genuinely forgot that he was supposed to be in love with Tauriel until the end. Probably for that reason, all the emotional arcs involving Thranduil made no impression on me.
The movie did, however, make a bit of a puzzling choice to me when everyone was trying to convince Thorin to give up some of the treasure: the promise to aid Lake-town was indeed under duress (unlike in the book, so I had to go back and check), and he had a point that it was therefore not valid. Yet people kept harping on how he should keep his word instead of arguing that it was the just thing to do, both in terms of the wealth of Dale being mingled in the dragon’s hoard and in terms of the dwarves having roused the dragon and therefore having been a cause of the town’s destruction. I felt it would have been a stronger demonstration of Thorin’s irrationality if the arguments had been crafted better. But then, I’m a lawyer, I would put emphasis on that.
The Battle also needed to be spectacle, and there were points there when I was distinctly not impressed with its technical aspects. A lot of the CGI creatures were noticeably terrible when they were interacting with people: Thranduil’s reindeer/elk/moose/whatever in battle was particularly bad, as was Legolas’ dismount from the giant bat. And when the Elves leapt into battle, vaulting over the Dwarves and their shield-wall, it looked like wire-work out of a wuxia movie: cool, but entirely out of place. I expected better, this many years after LotR.
What Might Have Been
Honestly, I still would really have liked the orc-dwarf stuff to hew closer to Appendix A in LotR. Thrór’s death is so great in the book, much more interesting than yet another death in battle. Show him going into Moria—we remember Moria from Fellowship very well, after all, so that right there creates tension already. Show us his companion waiting anxiously near the entrance. Show us Azog tossing Thrór’s head and body out, head branded with “Azog,” and tossing a few coins at the companion, telling him it was his fee for bringing the news to other dwarves. That would be very compelling, but also the kind of grim yet individual action that seems right up the alley of the filmmakers.
Then the big battle before Moria, and if Azog is killed there—I’d even accept a change to Thorin doing the killing—Bolg can be the single antagonist driving the action in the first movie, but because he’s pursuing revenge. I would have found that a more interesting motivation than “Azog is a particularly evil orc with a particularly strong hate for the line of Durin, for no apparent reason.”
Structurally, everything else could pretty much proceed as it was in the big picture. Naturally there are lots of tweaks I’d like to make in the execution (she says, looking back at the prior couple thousand words of this post, never mind the other two movie posts), but that’s the biggest content change I would have liked. And the one I’m most puzzled about not existing, frankly.
I know it’s traditional at this point to wish for the fan-edit that makes it two movies instead of three, but honestly I think I’ll just look for the Bilbo-only edit, since the things I genuinely liked about these adaptations pretty much boil down to Bilbo, Gollum, and Smaug. Those are excellent and I’m glad to have them, but not enough to wade through everything else surrounding them.
What about you all? What’s your personal high and low points of these movies; are you glad you saw them; what would you have liked to be different, on whatever scale?
Kate Nepveu was born in South Korea and grew up in New England. She now lives in upstate New York where she is practicing law, raising a family, and (in her copious free time) writing at Dreamwidth and her booklog. Elsewhere on Tor.com, she is currently rereading Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell.
I was sagely agreeing with you until…wait, what? Sauron didn’t have a body at Dol Guldur. That was only 60 years before LOTR. Sauron was incorporeal since his defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance thousands of years earlier. So that particular part of things, I actually understood. Although I agree that “last temptation of the ring” Galadriel is not how she should have looked when exerting her power to cast out Sauron, especially since she seemed to have the phial of Galadriel, which contains the light of Earendil that she gave to Frodo, which is certainly a weapon of light, not darkness.
I’ve been thinking of The Lonely Mountain as though it were Mt. Shasta—it really does look isolated, yet there are mountains within easy distance. https://www.flickr.com/photos/thedragonweaver/27665192 Or maybe it’s like the Sutter Buttes would have been back when they were a full volcano.
(Just a circle in the middle of the Sacramento Valley, standing alone… but less than half an hour by car to the Sierra foothills.)
Good recap. I haven’t bothered to see the last two Hobbit films after the disapointment that was the first one. But some of your quotes really struck me as being indicative of PJ’s, ahh, over-the-top style:
Yes, rather than letting the story speak for itself, PJ has a tendency to jump up and down on top your tear ducts (or whatever other emotional outlet he’s looking for) to get a reaction. To be fair, many if not most ‘big budget Action Tent Poles’ tend to do this, so I’m not sure why PJ stands out so much in this regard. Maybe he’s even more egregious in this than others? Or maybe it is just the echo of missed opportunity that clangs so loudly.
Yes another PJ Hallmark, Galadriel’s overwrought temptation scene in Fellowship comes to mind here as well.
J Town@1 – The whole Sauron not having a body thing is wholly an invention of the movies, not part of Tolkien’s works.
JTown @@@@@ #1, in “The Black Gate Is Closed” (LotR, Vol. 4, Ch. 3), Gollum remembers Sauron torturing him and says, “He has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand, but they are enough.” So he doesn’t *have* to be incorporeal.
B. Durbin @@@@@ #2, it’s hard to tell scales from Tolkien’s maps, but looking at this one that I linked in the post makes me think the Grey Mountains aren’t close enough for running up them during the battle.
gadget @@@@@ #3, yeah, I can’t say I didn’t know what I was likely to get, so my hopes were not high–and in a practical sense, it’s hard for me to argue that people who’ve been very successful should change course at the end–but, still.
I saw the movie on Dec 10, so I may have to go another time, to check it with your post, Kate. And there is another reason why I want to rewatch:
– I seem to recall a scene in one of the trailers, with a chase on that frozen river. I do not recall having seen that in the movie. It could be that this is Extended Edition stuff. From all 6 movies I spotted the points where extra scenes will be put in rather easily; Bilbo digging up the treasure in the Troll cave comes to mind.
Speaking of Extended Editions, Kate, in your post about the second movie you wondered about Thrain. Did you get to see the scenes where Gandalf meets him during his search of Dol Guldur?
I did like Dain, even though it’s typical RPG Dwarf behaviour. And I loved the sight of Heavy Dwarven infantry.
Kate,
My first thought was also “hey, he ain’t had a body since the end of Second Age,” but I’m glad someone else said that first so I had time to think about it a little.
The question of Sauron in the flesh is controversial, even in canon; Gollum does in fact refer to la Cosa Nostra (the Black Hand) as having been Isildur’d, and we know that Isildur did whack a corporeal finger off. Having said that, at the fall of Numenor we are specifically told that Sauron’s body in which he had long walked was destroyed and he fled back to Middle Earth as a spirit of hate; but on the other hand (so to speak) it goes on to say that he made himself a new body but could never appear fair again but only as a figure of terror.
We are also told that the Enemy slept in Dol Guldur (cue tourist sign “Sauron slept here”) and his shadow grew; it never says what happened to his body after he gave Isildur the finger; but it is certainly within the realm of speculation to say that his fresh new scary body got trashed especially after being de-ringed; and since his power was much diminished it took him all this time to grow a new one.
So it is quite possible to have it both ways; he didn’t have a body for a while, and it was just coming into shape to coincide with the nazghul finishing the re-upholstering the main TV room of Barad-Dur…
As I looked this up, I will say that whether or Sauron was incorporeal or not following his defeat on Orodruin is somewhat ambiguous. It was not, however, solely an invention of the movies. The Silmarillion also states that he forsook his body after his defeat. However, apparently letters of Tolkien allege that he may indeed have had a body in the third age. Tolkien certainly seemed to change his mind on a lot of things throughout the entire process. I will grant that from the Fellowship quote, it does seems that Sauron apparently had a body in the Third Age, so mea culpa.
Oh, my. When the camera showed Azog’s face under the ice, I was thinking “Dammit! Those eyes better not pop open!” But of course, they did. :( Also, Legolas’ one-on-one fight (with Bolg?) was just over the top for me. Way too many ‘cool stunts’. And when Bilbo was sneaking out to give the Arkenstone to the Human/Elf army, why the heck wasn’t he wearing the ring???? At this point he didn’t know it was dangerous to use. (And he did use it in the book!)
But-hey-we got to see the rabbit-sled again! I just love that thing! :D
Martin Freeman was the highlight for me, and the things I didn’t enjoy were the contrivances to make it more DRAMATIC. The same was true for previous movies so my expections weren’t high & consequently I enjoyed the movie more than I thought I would.
One question: did I see a typo in the Dol Guldur sequence subtitles where Sauron talked about the defeat of the East ? Isn’t it the West he’s trying to conquer?
I thought the death of Fili & Kili in the book was much better, also. I missed the “Eagles are coming” moment on the battlefield, also.
Hmm, basically, I agree.
While not any kind of expert, what I took from the Hobbit was Saurons Nom de Plum : The Necromancer. Depending on which universe’s rules you are following a necromancer not only can raise the dead but he can place his spirit within it. Depending on the author, when doing so significant physical attributes like say, a missing finger, get transmogrified on the body. And of course it takes oodles of health points to keep the body from rotting away beneath you. So Sauron is indeed a cleaner and a desert topping (obscure SNL reference)
This was not the Hobbit part 3 as much as it was the Lord of the Rings part 0.5. Instead of the story of a Hobbit’s adventures in the wider world, it was the story of the wider world that the Hobbit occasionally took part in. And, even more than the first two Hobbit movies, the bombast completely overwhelmed the original tale.
I was disappointed that Tauriel had become basically a love besotted teenager in this episode, after such a promising start.
And, like you, Kate, I was disappointed that so many threads got lost along the way (where did that fourth dwarf go in the battle scene? where did the Arkenstone end up? was the fifth of the eponymous armies the second goblin army, or was it the eagles? etc.). For example, I would have much rather seen Thorin’s funeral than a quick goodbye at the front gates for Bilbo, and it did nothing to further the plot for us to watch Legolas do his Roadrunner cartoon antics, using a giant bat as a personal aircraft, dropping a tower exactly across a chasm, and leaping from falling rock to falling rock to get to safety.
I did not enjoy Thorin’s final battle hinging on the old horror movie trope of “oh, no, the monster’s not really dead!”
I was not as much disturbed by using the young boy to steady the great arrow at the end. He was already in great jeopardy, stuck at the top of the rickety tower, and helping his dad did not put him in more danger.
I myself enjoyed dwarf Billy Connolly–as I always enjoy the man’s performances. Although I have to admit, he was so obviously playing himself, complete with his Scots dialect, that it almost took me out of the movie.
In the end, it was great fun, but I would have much preferred a story more focused on Bilbo and his adventures.
I saw the movie today and really enjoyed it. What Kate and some of the others objected to did not bother me. I found all the Afrid annoying and pointless, and some of what Legolas did was just too over the top for me.
The charge of Durin’s sons from Erebor was just wonderful to name one of the many touching moments.
Fiddler @@@@@ #5, I haven’t seen any extended editions, and I’m vexed to hear Thrain was there and excluded from the theatrical edition!
Dr. Thanatos @@@@@ #6, very elegantly reasoned as to why Sauron might’ve been forced to be incorporeal here and still corporeal to torture Gollum, which I am willing to bet is way more thought than the filmmakers put into it.
J Town @@@@@ #7, see the comment immediately above you for some additional information!
Marie the Bookwyrm @@@@@ #8, ugh, I forgot to mention Legolas’s jumping up the falling pieces of a collapsing bridge, because of course. (I put Bilbo not using the Ring when he should have, though, to the desire to spare the viewer Wraith-o-vision where possible, which honestly is fine by me.)
SoonLee @@@@@ #9, either I failed to register that there were subtitles or they immediately fell out of my head, so unfortunately I cannot answer what direction Sauron was trying to conquer. Anyone else?
stevenhalter @@@@@ #10, part of the problem is that the high-fantasy moments I created in my head as a kid are hard to match with mere special effects. => But the LotR movies did it with the Rohirrim, just to name the first example that came to mind, so I don’t think it’s impossible.
raaj @@@@@ #11, you make a good point: The Hobbit & LotR don’t actually explain, that I can recall, why he was known as the Necromancer before the big reveal. What kind of resurrecting was he doing, anyway? (Not the Nazgul, darn it; but what else?)
AlanBrown @@@@@ #12, mostly I wanted Bard to get his son DOWN from there. I realize, as I said, this may not have been rational. But yes, I was surprised that we didn’t get Thorin’s funeral (for instance), I figured that would have been well within the filmmakers’ wheelhouse.
Pilgrimsoul @@@@@ #13, I am genuinely glad you enjoyed it. I wish I had!
The problem with adding women is that Peter Jackson doesn’t have in his whole body the writing talent Tolkien had in his pinky. So we get the same crappy writing of women we get in every other mediocre Hollywood movie. Although, to be fair to Jackson, he tried his best to bring the rest of the characters down to that level.
Herb5648 @15:
Fran Walsh & Philippa Boyens are his writing partners (Guillermo del Toro gets writer credit too) so it’s not as if there wasn’t female input into the script. It’s the same writing team who put together the LotR scripts. Any blame is not PJ’s alone.
Herb5648 @@@@@ #15, SoonLee @@@@@ #16: yes, that’s why I always try to say “the filmmakers” or “Jackson et al.”, because I don’t want to erase their contributions.
Reading the whole exchange about whether or not Sauron was incorporeal in the books, I realize that I’ve mainlined so much Harry Potter recently that I have a hard time distinguishing him from Voldemort.
I just realized something:
At least they didn’t kill Tauriel.
(On preview: Matt, Voldemort gets more backstory (all the backstory, good or otherwise, is reserved for Morgoth) but Sauron is way more effective.)
Bilbo said “The Eagles are coming” too often. The first time fit, but then he kept repeating it at places where it didn’t make sense.
The Iron Hills are at least two days away from the Lonely Mountain: probably considerably more if we take it that Dain with his army started their forced march when they got the message from Thorin after Roac son of Carc sent the young ravens off to find Thorin’s living relatives in the Iron Hills etc. It takes at least two days to get from Lake Town to the River Running delta in the north; it takes another day to get to the Lonely Mountain itself.
So I’d guess it took Dain and his little army about between seven and nine days to get to the Lonely Mountain.
Totally agree with Bilbo, Gollum and Smaug being excellent and almost all the rest being confused filler. After watching Five Armies, my first thought leaving the theatre was I’m 95 percent certain that Alfred had more screen time that Bilbo..
Also that Dain portrayal. Sigh
@12
“I was disappointed that Tauriel had become basically a love besotted teenager in this episode, after such a promising start.”
Particularly given that Tauriel is at least 600 years old I was really disappointed that she was made out to be some kind of teenager in love. What was she doing for 600 years? Hiding in a tree and having no interaction with other people?
Interviews with Evangeline Lily suggested that the studio asked Jackson to up the romance angle in the third movie. She wasn’t thrilled about it.
Also I wanted more of the Dwarves besides Thorin, Fili, and Kili, but I sure did like them!
The book was called The Hobbit. So was the (badly extended) movie trilogy. It wasn’t called The Elves Of Mirkwood Went To Laketown, And What They Did There. I was very disappointed with the LACK of a hobbit in the third movie. This could have totally been done in two movies. Sigh.
birgit @@@@@ #20, I maybe vaguely remember him telling a dying Thorin that “The Eagles are coming”? Is that what you meant? Because I took that as “hey, reason to hang on, the tide of battle is turning.” But I could be entirely misremembering.
Gorbag @@@@@ #21, yeah, I think the timeline depends on how long it takes the Lake-town survivors to get to Dale; there could be some nights not shown in there. After they arrive I think there’s no time for extra days.
Ste Iwan @@@@@ #22, what a depressing thought, that Alfred should be even as prominent as Bilbo. Also, still dislike that he was hunchbacked.
Ragnarredbeard @@@@@ #23, “What was she doing for 600 years? Hiding in a tree and having no interaction with other people?” made me choke on my drink, thank you.
Colin R @@@@@ #24, and yet I’d think Jackson et al. by this point ought to be able to resist studio pressure. Hollywood politics are weird.
pilgrimsoul @@@@@ #25, am I a bad person for wanting the dwarves to have name tags? I had to look up which one was Fili and which one was Kili; the rest is just hopeless. Which is to say–yes, a missed opportunity.
shanemcbride @@@@@ #26, a friend of mine once reviewed a YA novel about a girl who did roller derby by saying “too much boyfriend, not enough roller derby,” which has become a useful shorthand phrase for me. And yeah, there are worse ways to sum up my opinion of this trilogy than “too much battle, not enough Bilbo.”
Personally (based on my awareness of how much the actors involved *didn’t want* the love triangle) I sort of watched Orlando Bloom’s performance with that in mind and it kinda felt like he and Evangeline Lily were basically refusing to actually act it out, although they had to speak the words from the script.
Probably the biggest frustration for me in this film (while watching it) is something that doesn’t seem to get much mention is the Alfred sideplot. It was such a frustrating waste of time and effort, and all to set up a completely bizarre (and frankly, to me, kind of offensive) man-in-drag joke. Why was this character and joke felt to be needed?! It felt like about half an hour all told was devoted to setting him up, and the only pay off was ‘LOL man in a dress, he’s such a coward LOL’, and then the character is literally never seen again. If you need a bit of light humour (which presumably this was intended as), you have about 8 dwarves left to choose between who have otherwise had nothing to do through these films!! I hate the ‘comedy dwarf’ angle that is so often taken, but it was a real opportunity to give some much needed character development and just plain script and screen time to a large group of characters theoretically in the main cast that we NEVER got to know in the films!
When I heard it was being split into 3 films I, like everyone else, hated the idea and felt pretty sure it was going to end up a bloated mess one way or another, but a little hopeful voice inside of me was whispering ‘Hey, maybe they’ll actually use the extra screen time to really develop the dwarves and some interesting characters!’. It was the same voice that was hoping that Tauriel would actually get to be an interesting new character and not just a lame love interest. *sigh* What could have been!
After the first two movies, I’ve gotten over all the changes, additions, etc. from the books and was watching this one just to enjoy the movie. That being the case, the thing that bothered me most about this movie was Alfrid.
So much time spent on this annoying character, so much ridiculousness with him continuing to be trusted by Bard and Gandalf, so much him being built into this character we don’t like. And then… he just walks off at the end of a lame attempt at a man-in-drag joke.
This is just awful story-telling on the part of PJ. Create and build up this character and… nothing… no redemption, no come-uppance, just walk of screen in drag with the stolen gold…
@29 JayC,
“This is just awful story-telling on the part of PJ. Create and build up this character and… nothing… no redemption, no come-uppance, just walk of screen in drag with the stolen gold…”
I always thought Tolkien was about good/just vs evil and good/just would win the day in the end, but apparently the real lesson to Peter Jackson and friends is that good is too stupid to see thru Alfrid’s act and evil gets to walk off scot-free in a dress with ill-gotten gold.
Rivendell isn’t to the North, Raven Hill is…
This Galadriel scene is in contention to being my favorite scene in all of the six films. Ironically, it is a sequence that is absent from the book. Nothing captured the feeling of Sword & Sorcery High Fantasy better than that scene. It showed me what was going on behind the scenes of the Hobbit (an innocent adventure that doesn’t interest me like the epic tale of LOTR), it showed me what was at stake, and it showed characters that are supposedly awesome and powerful actually being awesome and powerful. I really enjoyed seeing a wizard being a wizard. I really enjoyed seeing an ancient Elven hero being an ancient Elven hero. I really enjoyed seeing the ghostly warriors be ghostly warriors. More than anything, however, I really enjoyed seeing Galadriel be the powerful protector that Tolkien says she is but never shows her being. Chalk it up to Cate Blanchett being an incredible actor but the fear, the vulnerability, and ultimately the strength and compassion she showed in this scene was absolutely breathtaking especially for source material that has a horrific treatment of women. I did not mind seeing her weakened here. She is a creature of pure light who is greatly attuned to psychic energy (for lack of a better Tolkien term) in a place of pure darkness. Blanchett’s choice to show that this weighed on her soul was brilliant to me because the fear made her taking a stand all the more triumphant.
I do agree with some of the other comments here that the Peter Jackson went a little too far on the CG treatment for Galadriel and I wished they hadn’t doctored her voice so much because I really want to know what she is saying. While I like the idea of Galadriel’s appearance changing as she is truly invoking an awesome and frightening power, she did end up looking like Samara from The Ring. I’m not sure how I feel about her using the Light of Earendil. I wish they had featured her using her Ring at all, but I think the Light fits thematically with what she is doing here.
In my circles, a lot of Tolkien purists vitriolically hated this scene because it gave Galadriel more agency than Tolkien gave her. I don’t really understand why, amidst all the changes in the movie, giving Galadriel one chance to be the hero is so bad. Galadriel is not banishing Sauron on her own. She has her own power, on top of her Ring, on top of the Light of Earendil. All these things allowed her to tip the scales in her favor with the help of the White Council. Furthermore, she would not be the first Elf to overpower a Maia and Galadriel is said to be the greatest of the Elves, on par with Fëanor if not greater than he because of her wisdom (“Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.” – The Shibboleth of Fëanor). This inherent greatness is further supplemented by the talismans she is using (the Ring, the Light). Let us also remember that the Istari do not have access to all the powers of their Maiar forms.
My obsession with Galadriel is probably due to the fact that she is the most prominent of Tolkien’s women, of which there are very, very few. She is as good as Sauron is evil and yet her gender meant that she was taken away from so much of the action in the original material. Tolkien spoke that he was inspired by the Blessed Virgin for Galadriel, which I can definitely see, and the more he wrote about her the more prominent and powerful she became. I do not personally see the “ship” between Galadriel and Gandalf in the movies. She cares for him deeply because she has a long history with him. I think calling it romantic love is a simplification of what I drew from it. Could there be romantic feelings? Perhaps, but that is not the beginning nor the end of their friendship which could honestly span thousands of years. This scene here added a great weight to The Fellowship of the Ring where Galadriel asks where Gandalf is and the grief we see when they tell her he died. Christopher Tolkien has spoken at length about how Galadriel is one of the most problematic of characters because she was a late invention whose story and prominence was constantly undergoing revision. With that in mind, I don’t really think the scene depicted in this movie would be so far outside Tolkien’s intention for the character, a woman of light who does her best to keep the darkness at bay from the things she loves.
oddballlucy @@@@@ #28, I completely sympathize with the actors’ feelings, and yet I can’t help but wonder if they might have redeemed it by actually trying. Probably not–Orlando Bloom isn’t that kind of actor.
and also JayC @@@@@ #29: As for the Alfred sideplot, yes, I was focused on what it didn’t do–shame/punish him with a gruesome death, as I expected–that I didn’t mention that the “hah, hah, dude in a dress” bit sucked. I think the overall point was to make Bard look more virtuous and family-oriented in contrast, especially with not taking unnecessary vengenance–but it was pretty weak.
Makhno @@@@@ #31, I think on the film’s map Raven Hill was to the _south_, and the Internet backs me up . . .
Chevalle @@@@@ #32, I definitely don’t hate the Galadrield scene because it gives her agency, I hate it because it gives it to her and then *undercuts* it, but I’m glad it worked for you! (I honestly hadn’t registered she was using the Light, either, so thanks for pointing that out.)
I saw this today and enjoyed it more than i was expecting but yeah, there were plenty of frustrating changes as many have mentioned. Wouldn’t that bow string have practically taken the boy’s head off? I could have done without the entirety of alfrid’s scenes. The many many many too many battles were just confusing and over-egged. Why didn’t he wear the ring when sneaking out of erebor?! That scene in particular directly followed thranduil telling an elvish solider to shoot anything that moves on the mountain so considering elves have incredibly good eyesight bilbo probably should have had an arrow in the neck. I agree with the portrayal of dain as well and why he had to be cgi completely baffles me. No burial shot of thorin under the mountain with orcrist and the arkenstone? Oh well, maybe they saved it for the extended edition. You could go on really, it was just stuffed with far too much.
“Honestly, I still would really have liked the orc-dwarf stuff to hew closer to Appendix A in LotR. Thrór’s death is so great in the book, much more interesting than yet another death in battle. Show him going into Moria—we remember Moria from Fellowship very well, after all, so that right there creates tension already. Show us his companion waiting anxiously near the entrance. Show us Azog tossing Thrór’s head and body out, head branded with “Azog,” and tossing a few coins at the companion, telling him it was his fee for bringing the news to other dwarves. That would be very compelling, but also the kind of grim yet individual action that seems right up the alley of the filmmakers.”
I agree this would have added a neat bit of foreshadowing to the events in fellowship if they hadn’t already included it as a flashback in unexpected journey.
Have never seen ANY love for Alfrid.
On the other hand those of us who said Bilbo had snaffled the Arkenstone? Yeah. We Nailed It.
politeruin @@@@@ #34, you’re exactly right, I also figured Bilbo would have to dodge arrows leaving the Mountain after that line of Thranduil’s. Very poor editing. And I know they had Azog killing Thror in the first movie, but in battle, so it wasn’t the same.
Pilgrimsoul @@@@@ #35, yes, you were right that Bilbo had picked up the Arkenstone first! While I still dislike it–I would have preferred he snag it after Thorin went really weird–it wasn’t actually a cheat as filmed, so whatever, small potatoes.
Kate, thanks for all the re-reads and reviews! I’ve very much enjoyed reading your thoughts and all the comments and discussions they have generated, even if I’ve just not had time to add to the comments.
I enjoyed all three movies of The Hobbit, albeit with the rather significant caveat that I had to accept from the outset that this would be The Hobbit according to Jackson et al (plus a dash of del Toro) and I would have to take the movies for what they were and not attempt to compare them to the well-beloved source material.
That said, it’s inevitable not to do so and, just as there were a few significant heinous modifications in the LotR movies (in the midst of a plethora of minor modifcations which could either be overlooked or were genuinely necessary for the transition from page to screen), so it was with The Hobbit.
I agree that Bilbo, Gollum and Smaug were undoubtedly the best parts of all this but I think I’d also have to add Gandalf to that list. For the most part, I also liked Thranduil and I accept the creative team’s choice of playing up the haughty-elf-lord side of his character (such as it was in the limited source material from the book), to the point that there was rather more of Thingol about him than Thranduil at times and I admit that some of the “back-story” was a bit odd. Bard I was initially less sure of but he very much grew on me with subsequent re-watchings of TDS and on into TBotFA. Bjorn was all kinds of wrong for me; looked wrong, sounded wrong – which is a shame given that the Bear worked and his house (generally) worked for me. The inclusion of elements from the LotR Appendices, and so on, generally worked for me and certainly helped to flesh out the bigger picture of what was happening around the Quest of Erebor. The use of the White Council was generally effective and, barring a few minor concerns about over-playing the comic relief aspects of Radagast and the return to crazy-lady Galadriel, I was very glad they were there and it certainly laid some foundations for later developments in LotR.
On the negative side, the truly unneccessary moments of ah-here’s-an-over-done-and-drawn-out-action-sequence-just-to fill-some-time-or-because-it-looks-cool-or-will-work-well-later-in-a-videogame were all just immensely annoying and unnecessarily lengthened the movies or, much worse, detracted from or actively reduced necessary time that should have been spent on the characters and their interaction. The collapsing pillars and stairs in Moria from FotR and Legolas shield-surfing in TTT or mumakil-surfing in RotK were more than matched by Thorin’s shield-luge (and the rest…) in Erebor during TDS and Legolas (again…!) dancing up falling stones in Dale. And there were others…
These, however, were as nothing compared to the decidedly odd decisions to have Fili, Kili and Thorin die separately and not as part of the main battle. After all the foreshadowing from Thorin about Fili someday becoming King himself and the emphasis in TBotFA about the younger dwarfs being his sister’s sons, Fili’s death was reduced to a pointless act of wanton violence from a character who should have already been long dead! Kili was despatched in similar fashion whilst mooning over a elf we’d never heard of up to a few years ago (although, strangely, I rather like Tauriel, both as a concept and (mostly) as portrayed in the movies). The key point, however, is the utter loss of any meaning to their sacrifice; their deaths, standing alone together (at least implicit in the book, if I recall correctly), defending their beloved Lord and uncle after he falls leading the Dwarfs against the Orcs would have been FAR more powerful and I would even have accepted a fairly large dollop of inevitable PJ melodrama around this episode if only he’d kept the essence of the event intact (and, ideally, had therefore also kept Thorin’s death scene and reconciliation with Bilbo back at the camp after the Battle). I’m also with those who assume that the burial scene with Orcrist and the Arkenstone will duly appear in the extended edition.
Alfrid was wholly unnecessary and just annoyed me intensely. Another additonal new character who was simply not required; the Master of Laketown had more than sufficient chracter traits to play upon to make the role of Alfrid entirely redundant. My initial impression in TDS was that Alfrid was just a poor-man’s Grima Wormtongue and that descended (badly) into Blackadder territory in TBotFA. Alfrid’s scenes during and after the destruction of Esgaroth could all have been written using the Master (an original character, at least, and who does survive the attack by Smaug). It would also have far better portrayed the shift of power from the Master to Bard.
Dain, strangely, I didn’t mind so much but there were a few things that I initially found jarring: the first was that Billy Connolly’s tenor voice sounded distinctly weedy and un-Lord-like after the deep, bass-baritone of Richard Armitage; the second was that I was just put in mind of the (Scottish) Vikings from the How to Train Your Dragon movies, which I’m sure was not what was intended. Despite all that, I rather liked Dain by the end and would have liked to have seen some acknowledgement that he became the next King Under the Mountain. The extended edition again…?
It’ll be odd not to be able to go back the the cinema next winter to once again return to Middle Earth. The only thing remaining that is still to come to us is indeed now the extended edition of TBotFA and, for all my irritations with some of the creative decisions made along the way, I’ll be looking forward to seeing what PJ & Co have included — and whether they can at least enhance this last film with more character moments and a bit more of the story.
Aesculapius, lots of interesting thoughts. In particular, yes, it’s very strange why they created Alfrid instead of using the existing character of the Master. But I’m particularly bemused at the idea that we’ll have to wait for the extended edition for various bits for this movie, which was — by the standards of these movies, anyway — on the short side!
The lonely Mountain Is Mt.Shasta, Ca.. The Elves represent the ancient aryan race know as the “Lemurians” who live underneath Mt.shasta in citys of gold..Humans represent the dwarfs in the movie, An the other characters relate to fallen angels and mythical gods..It’s a great movie that holds some hidden knowledge that alot of people don’t know about :) Be a truth seeker!! It’s what will set you free :)
Kate; yes, it seems very strange that the final resolution to the Quest, the slaying of Smaug and the Battle and the eventual lasting outcomes for Erebor and Dale were glossed-over, especially given that the necessary scenes would not have added that much length to the overall movie which, as you say, was already not as long as the other movies in the series.
I fully expect the extended version at least to include a scene which shows the company gathered for the burial of Thorin with Bard and Thranduil handing over the Arkenstone and Orcrist. We may see Dain accepting the crown of Erebor or maybe he’ll just be in the background of this scene with said crown already in place.
I guess there was a desire amongst the writing team to re-focus the final scenes of the story back onto Bilbo as the titular Hobbit, and, in particular, to attempt to emphasise the “book-ending” of both this trilogy and the overall series, at least for the casual movie-goers rather than the hardcore Tolkien fans. I suspect there may have been a collective awareness that they wished to avoid the difficulty of “multiple endings” that so plagued RotK (albeit unavoidably).
The only other thing that crossed my mind was the likelihood that after the extended edition of TBotFA, there will inevitably be a mahoosive combined Middle-Earth boxed set coming some time in the future, containing the extended editions of all six movies with all the collected appendices. Without succumbing to dreadfully bad spasms of George Lucas-isms, I wondered if PJ may have thought ahead and contemplated any little moments from either The Hobbit or LotR that he could possibly have filmed, while the opportunity was available, with the intention that they could later be developed/CGIed and added to the “collected editions” that might subtly tie the two stories (the first scene that jumped to mind was the defence of Erebor and Dale by King Dain and King Brand, concurrent with the events of the end of the War of the Ring in Gondor).
Aesculapius @@@@@ #40, yes, I can see avoiding multiple endings, but I don’t think a bit of the funeral and so forth would have been terrible in that regard. Oh well, considering all my other complaints it was fairly minor.
Kate@41: Agreed, it would have added, say, four to five minutes at most and would presumably have come immediately before the point at which Bilbo and Gandalf say goodbye to the remaining dwarves. The footage of those scenes clearly exists as stills have been published in some of the associated books about the production and are now floating around the web.
Given all the previous whinging, I can see why they made the choice to restrict the amount of “ending” within the theatre-version of the movie but it seems odd to remove those elements of final closure to the story of the dwarves and the quest in general and Thorin in particular. The return of the Arkenstone and Orcrist are quite symbolic of the reconciliation and renewed alliances between the Dwarves of Erebor and the Mirkwood elves and the men of Dale.
In many ways, it feels like it’s up there with the decision to cut the Lothlorien scene with Galadriel’s gifts to the Fellowship from the theatre-cut of FotR, given that those gifts would go on to play a key part in subsequent events (albeit in later movies) without ever having been properly introduced.
It’s quite worrying in many ways that some critics and casual movie-goers seem unable to grasp that complex, multi-stranded stories inevitably require complex and multi-stranded endings to achieve proper resolution. With that in mind, I’m still surprised that something like Game of Thrones has become as popular as it is. I wonder if that has something to do with it being presented in short bites of 45 minutes at a time…?
I actually found the ending a bit disappointing. I was hoping for Gandalf and Balin to come visiting since the dwarfs did visit Bilbio quite a bit as did Gandalf.
What also struck me was how little they showed that Bilbo fell in love with Elvish culture and that he traveled much to Rivendell after his adventure.
Though I suppose all of this ties into the characters and their developments all getting a bit lost in the Hobbit trilogy and the LOTR films.
SN45D @@@@@ #43, Balin visiting could have been distracting because we know he dies in Moria, which might bring up that Tolkien decided to age him down between books so that he’d be young enough to *go* to Moria afterward. Also we don’t get any dwarves until Rivendell in the movie _Fellowship_. But yes, it would have been nice to see a little nod to Bilbo doing more with his life than sitting in his hobbit hole, such as telling Gandalf he was planning to visit Rivendell, for instance.
My take on the movie was very “meh”. Some of my friends outright hated it, and I get that, but I certainly wouldn’t say it’s the worst thing in recent history.
But I agree that Freemen, Smaug, and Gollum are about the only good things in the Hobbit movies.
This one though… I enjoyed getting to see the “Battle of Five Armies” played out. It’s been ages since I read the Hobbit, and I’ve never read the Silmarillon, so I actually appreciate the “extended” version of the movie just to get a little more of the history, even if it isn’t perfect. So that is not where my qualm lies.
What I didn’t like was the drama-taken-to-absurd-extremes that was in all 3 but mostly this one. I honestly had to stop myself from busting out laughing at some of the films most “serious” moments, like Thorin being all EVIL and Galadriel being all MAGIC and, wow, the absolute worst was Tauriel’s “WHAT IS LOVE WHY DOES IT HURT MAKE IT STOP!!!”
I can only feel pity for that poor actress for having to deliver those lines. I do love the addition of some female cast, but because it’s not Tolkien’s writing, and apparently they couldn’t bother to hire someone with any skill, it’s so easy to tell these characters don’t belong at all. It’s some of the worst dialog and character interaction I’ve ever seen. Just, ugh.
I also agree with some above that it was a bit disappointing that the ending, or epilogue, wasn’t a bit more. This time it felt very rushed and weird. Which I guess was a response to all the “LOL 10 endings” that the last movie got (but, come on, just don’t fade to black for 10 seconds in between each scene, that’s all it takes).
Also final point: The main reason Legolas looks so weird, and related to why a lot of people found the romace baffling because Legolas has no chemistry with Tauriel–they used a lot of CG on Bloom’s face to try and make him look “younger” to combat that whole “he’s older” thing which isn’t supposed to happen to elves, and especially since this is a prequal. I don’t think it was a good move (people can suspend disbelief when a character is completely recast, who cares if he aged a little?) because it makes him look so wooden. I think Bloom could have pulled it off a lot better if not for the very obvious CG editing.
As for the other elves, I agree they always came across as a little odd to me but I thought that was in keeping with the “They are definitely not human, and they’re ancient” vibe. They are definitely not very relatable, which I think is the point. But maybe that’s me giving too much credit. Personally though I liked Thranduil a lot better than Elrond (sorry, Weaving).
naupathia @@@@@ #45, I’d blocked out the Tauriel speech about love, apparently, because I was just over that entire plotline. And I didn’t realize they actually used CGI on Bloom’s face! I agree, terrible idea.
I finally saw it last night. Coming right out of it, I was pleasantly surprised, but there is a lot that doesn’t hold up to thinking about it. During the film, my two biggest problems were Legolas being really good at physics games and platformers (especially his run across the disintegrating tower) and the wereworms (did I hear that right?). When they came on screen, I said rather loudly, “Shai Hulud!” and “We’ve got worm sign!”. Although they really looked more like graboids.
The various cavalry were also on the ridiculous side. We’d already seen Thranduil’s Irish elk, but Daín’s war pig and the armored goats that came from nowhere were rather silly, too.
My wife’s biggest complaint is that nobody grieved for Fili. Tauriel held Kili’s body, Bilbo was with Thorin, but Fili was just forgotten.
The lack of knowing what happens later to Tauriel is irksome. Where was she in LotR? The fact that they don’t mention that Daín became king was also annoying. Both of those things could be rectified in the extended version.
Other complaints: Billy Connolly overwhelms every role he plays. I keep expecting him to break out into “If It Were Nae for Yer Wellies” or “The Scotsman’s Kilt”. Also, it still bothers me that they pronounce Daín and Thraín as one syllable.
My head canon is that Alfrid fled south and ran into Sauruman. He entered the wizard’s service and his son and grandson, Grima, did the same.
DemetriosX @@@@@ #47, yes, Fili got ignored. I knew we couldn’t get closure on Tauriel given the prequel nature–though at least they didn’t kill her!–and I love, love, love your headcanon for Alfrid!
@47 Yeah, they should have foreshadowed those war goats by showing them earlier. They kind of came out of nowhere. And I kept wondering why Dain’s dwarves stopped just short of the shelter of the mountain to make their last stand. Sort of like stopping in your front yard in a rainstorm instead of entering your house.
To me the happiest moment I had was the end – Bilbo returning to Bag End in the middle of his household being auctioned off. After LOTR so thoroughly destroying the ending and scouring of the shire, could only hope that they would do it right with the hobbit. And other than morphing into Old Bilbo from the LOTR movies (which as I recall from the books he was almost entirely unchanged in the 60 odd years except feeling “stretched thin like butter over too much bread).” Here Bilbo was just old.
I also harbored hopes that he would have planted the acorn that he showed to Thorin to distract him from the Arkenstone in a field near Bagend, and that it had become the Party tree. That is just me.
alfoss1540 @@@@@ #50, you’re right, they didn’t skip the auction, which they might have given the Scouring. The acorn was a bit of a missed opportunity, but I can actually understand that omission, the balance of the tone of the ending would have suffered for it.
It turns out that the “were-worms” are just on the edge of canonicity: Bilbo mentions them in the very first chapter of The Hobbit, but they are never heard of again.
I loved this movie, and so did my daughter. We have watched all six movies together, and even though she has a Language Disorder she manages to understand the plot and dialogue remarkably well ;-)
We are both looking forward to the Extended Edition and wondering what on earth might be included therein.
NotACat @@@@@ #52, yes, the Were-Worms are mentioned by Bilbo, but they’re a desert thing not a mountain thing. =>
I’m delighted to hear that you and your daughter enjoyed them!
And considering Thranduil’s noted problems with emotions, plus previous conflicts (hello, he exiled her), Tauriel asking him anything is a little odd. I couldn’t help seeing it as “You obviously found a way to quit loving anyone, can you teach me how to be an asshole too?” Maybe at least he gets her a little wine or something.
HelenS @@@@@ #54, I sort of figured she was just asking whoever happened to be there, semi-rhetorically, but your interpretation is also plausible, unfortunately!
NotACat @52, Re: EE.
Since Bilbo has this big treasure chest on the back of his horse when he and Gandalf enter Hobbiton, you can be sure a revisit to the Troll Cave will be included. :)
I totally hated Tauriel’s last lines too, but I was at least able to realize that it’s not QUITE as stupid as it first appears, given that Elves probably aren’t dealing with loss and grief as much as humans would. But I’ve realized that everything I hate about these movies revolves around the Ravenhill scenes.
I hate that Fili and Kili’s deaths were so cheapened, I hated all the one on one mega orc video game battles (I have no problem with Legolas having some flashy moves here and there, but not when it is the whole purpose of the scene), and while I am really glad Tauriel didn’t get fridged, they didn’t do much better with her. I would have rather seen some more quiet moments with her and Kili if they WERE going to try and play up the growing affection for each other, but still have Fili and Kili make their last stand defending Thorin, and then Tauriel could grieve for him.
But, 54, you are right…why on earth would she ask Thranduil for advice? I loved him throwing shade all over the place, but he was kind of pathologically creepy. I also don’t really like that in the end it’s Tauriel that ‘redeems’ him and reminds him of the Power of Love, instead of showing the scene where he and Bard give the Arkenstone back to the Dwarves and that the 3 kingdoms grow in friendship. I remember he was a bit of a dick in the books, but he wasn’t THAT bad.
And I really hated that all those antics took away from a more nuanced epilouge.
Does the Party Tree show up in the other movies? I wonder if Beorn’s acorn is supposed to be it!
I liked Galadriel’s scene, although I was a bit worried she was going to swoon throughout the whole thing instead of showing us the powerful Elf who throws down the walls of Dol Guldur! I don’t think the CGI was necessarily meant to evoke that she was going ‘dark’, but I do think it was a little lazy.
Lisamarie @@@@@ #57, I suspect the Party Tree is probably in Fellowship, but I honestly am too cold to come out from under my down blanket and check. =>
Oh, yes, it’s in Fellowship. What I meant was, does it show up in the other Hobbit movies (meaning that it already exists, and is NOT planted by Bilbo).
Also – I actually didn’t even realize Alfrid was supposed to be hunchbacked. I just thought he was short and had bad posture (kind of like me, actually) or was just generally slouching/cowering.
Lisamarie @@@@@ #59, I just asked Google and the actor confirms that he was supposed to be a hunchback, alas.
Oh, now I remember what I was wanting to discuss on this thread specifically!
What did you think about the way the last words from the Hobbit were used? Aside from being really disappointed they didn’t have Balin come and visit (and use it as a chance to show us more of the aftermath and perhaps even a few hints as to what is leading up to Lord of the Rings – like, let’s see Gollum crawling out of his cave, etc), two things really struck me:
1)While I was glad they showed Bilbo lying about the Ring, I think it would have been cooler if he had told the lie that was retconned in to explain why the first edition of the Hobbit has a different story than the later editions. Maybe that’s kind of nerdy of me!
2)I also thought they way they brought in the ‘you’re just a little fellow after all’ was a bit weird. In the movie, Gandalf seems to be saying it to show that he knows that Bilbo couldn’t have done all that on his own. But in the book it’s more about providence and the fact that all of this didn’t come about just for his own well being, and also that it wasn’t just all him and not a reason to disbelieve in the prophecies (and therefore a sense of providence/guidance/meaning in the world, I suppose).
Sometimes it’s little things like that which remind me how different PJ’s worldview is from Tolkien’s and how in some ways he doesn’t 100% ‘get’ the point of the books (although there are many places it truly shines through, especially in the interactiosns between Bilbo and Thorin and Bilbo’s kindness/loyalty to him, which is in some ways unearned, but that’s kind of the point of grace and Tolkien’s message – generally expressed through Gandalf – that the simple goodness of people like Bilbo is what is truly important in battling evil). For example, I was always disappointed that in the end of Return of the King, you see Frodo turn away from the Ring and grab Sam’s hand BEFORE the Ring is actually destroyed, which according to Tolkien, should have been impossible for him at that point, and that his survival was due to grace – he had done everything he could do, and it wasn’t enough. (I tend to handwave it by saying that the Ring was partially destroyed/weakened at that point, allowing his hobbit goodness to come through).
And then of course there’s Faramir and his ‘need’ to give the character a journey…shutting up now ;)
Lisamarie @@@@@ #61, re: “just a little fellow” speech: introducing the idea that Bilbo wasn’t just lucky, he was blessed, at the very _end_ of the book, seemed awkward and out of place to me. So since I wasn’t a fan of it in the first place, I was fine with repurposing it.
BillinHI @@@@@ #62, yeah, the different character designs for the dwarves that were supposed to be the “hot” ones did not escape me.
Having seen the film this weekend:
Overall impression: it is what it is. I thought Alfrid was a bit much; I thought almost all the action scenes should have been severely edited; I cheered when we met Young Lobelia.
Several views of Smaug while trash-talking Bard made me think he looked rather like a fiery spider (which if deliberate would be a nice touch)…
The 5 second appearance of Beorn? Frankly I didn’t catch it. There was an appearance of a big furry thing but I assumed that was a warg…
I liked a lot of the battle of Dol Guldur but Saruman disco-dancing with semivisible Nazghul cracked me up. Also Sherlock (oh I meant Smaug…oh I meant Sauron) talking about 3 Rings for the Elven Kings while Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond were in his living room—I thought for sure he was going to smack himself on the forehead and say “Now I get it” but alas, he decided to just recite poetry in the middle of a battle…
Also “Thranduil” saying he wanted a jewel from the horde, and his eyes lighting up when he saw the “Arkenstone”—last seen by him 7000 years earlier when he threw his into the sea and changed his name from Maglor…I was hoping that PJ would go there and take it farther, but at least it worked in my mind…
@64, re: Thranduil
I hadn’t thought of that particular possibility, but I do love it. (But isn’t it more likely to be the “Arkenstone” that his brother threw into the depths of the Earth via firey chasm?)
My breath caught at his line “a treasure I too desire” which is awfully close to Thingol’s “A treasure dear I too desire” from the Lay of Lethian. Were the dwarves of the Mountain holding the remnants of the Nauglamir? Is Thranduil some distant kin to Thingol of Doriath?
Thranduil is a Sindarin Elf as far as I remember, but I’m fairly certain it’s not intended (at least not by Tolkien) that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, since the Silmarillion is fairly clear about the Silmarils being lost until the ‘Last Battle’.
Also, I actually learned recently that the sons of Feanor have red hair (which has actually spurred a ton of speculation that Tauriel is a lost Feanorian descended from Maglor, lol. More likely to me – assuming is that one of her ancestors is some Wood Elf distantly related to Miriel, but who did not choose to go to Middle Earth – although since all Noldor supposedly went, I guess that just means that red hair can occur spontaneously in other Elves as well).
Lisamarie,
My theory is mostly humor. However in early drafts of the Hobbit, before the idea of a Third Age, when it was set in a dark forest near a Necromancer named Sauron and involved an un-named elf king who lived in about a thousand caves, there was a hint that he meant the Arkenstone (translation from old English “holy stone”) to be a Silmaril.
I don’t ever remember a reference to Feanor’s kids being redheads; I presumed they had dark black hair like him (and it’s only in the movies where all non-Elrond elves have silvery hair).
My wacky theory is that Maglor, hearing that there was a gem that glowed of it’s own light and everyone who saw it liked it a lot, bumped off Thranduil, assumed his Sindarin identity, and set up a kingdom real close to the Mountain where said jewel was; when both Dwarves and Dragon were conveniently out of the way, he showed up with a big army “for humanitarian purposes” and even in the book, when the Arkenstone was unveiled, he got a look of wonder on his face.
My theory from movie 3 when we saw the scars on “Thranduil’s” face was that he tried to sneak past Smaugie to get Daddy’s jewel back and was less than successful.
BTW there is weirder Maglor fanfic out there—in one, the Water Silmaril is washed ashore in the form of a very attractive elf lady who Maglor meets and treats as his sister. Then it gets strange…
and the Maglor-Sister story is set in modern era San Francisco. Just to make it more canon, obviously…
Dr. Thanatos, I will pass over your Silmarillion wacky theory because I seem to recall we’ve already talked about it =>, but I do have a vague recollection that Sauron did make a mention of the Three Rings, now that you mention it, which is . . . weird.
Good review!
First, I thought it was obvious that Thranduils interest in a neclace with gems was an encho of Finrod and the Nauglamir, but I never ever thought of it being Maedros and a silmaril. That’s just a briliant theory.
Second, about Galadriel going black in Dol Guldur.
I don’t really like it either, but maybe you could argue that she draws on the powers of the phial, which are really the powers of the simlaril.
Since the silmarils have a, ahem…, special history, with some problems and dark deeds for her family, you could argue that using it’s powers to cast out Sauron is a great risk for her, straying very close to damnation. Therefore MAYBE she crosses over momentarily to the dark side, but all for the greater good.
/ Fredrik
Fredrik, that’s very interesting, but I’m not convinced that the Silmarils would object their light to being used to cast out Sauron, as opposed to trying to get the actual Silmarils themselves, you know?
katenepveu@72
No, of cource you are right, I am just REALLY trying to find a reason, albeit not a very plausible one.
It seems quite clear that Galadriel took no oat (of Feanor), and even if she did it is slighly different to cast out Sauron, using the powers of the simlmaril, to waging war upon someone to get that silmaril for herself.
The real reson is probably “PJ thinks it looks cool”.
Thanks for a great reread, anyway, even if I am late to the party.
/ Fredrik
Yeah, and/or “the film makers have unexamined ideas about what power does to women as opposed to men.” =<
Thanks for joining the party, even if late! (I knew that going through and subscribing to _every_ _single_ _one_ of my old posts was worthwhile . . . )
That’s interesting that you had to subscribe. One would think that by WRITING the post you should automatically get it included on your conversations list!
I suppose if you do want to take the tack that there was a danger there for Galadriel, it could have been something like that while she was casting out Sauron, she also had some latent desires to then rule in his place (for the good, of course). But I agree it’s more ‘PJ thought it would look cool’.
@74,75 – Yeah, it’s kinda odd, but bloggers need to “subscribe” to be notified (via email) of comments on their posts. Or if you post a comment, it shows up in your “conversations” list on your profile, but that can get messy if you’re a frequent writer here.
I suspect the need for bloggers to subscribe to their own posts will go away with the coming upgrade to the overall website, from just general familiarity with the system they’re moving to, but I’ve completely failed to beta-test that sucker, so it’s just a guess. =>
I am a Tolkien fat since the 1960’s having first read “The Hobbit” and the “Lord of the Rings” in my mid-teens years (ages me). Given, number one, the fantastic detail detail of both the prequel book (Hobbit) and then LOTR, I found them rich and full of details beyond any I had read, including “Narnia” by C.S. Lewis, one of Tolkein’s close friends. I wanted more, but it would many years into adulthood before the “Silmeriliion” then “Lost Tales” would be published by Christopher Tolkein. A couple of problems you don’t mention is that Jackson did not hold the rights to anything but the Hobbit and LOTR, and nothing else, cutting him from the expanded back story, except for the appendices of LOTR to draw any back story from.
i have yet to see any book adapted to movie form be faithful to the source material. Time constraints and the pure depth of the source material were impossible to make in anything but 24 hour movies each, and then there would be drastic cutting needed. Having produced the conclusion first, then the Hobbit, required Jackson to skip the the appendices, with only faint indications of them included. Critizing Jackson and company means you have the experience to produce the movie adaptations yourself, which I doubt. Criticism, that’s little more than “Monday morning quarterbacking” does nothing to decrease what Jackson had done and more to increase you lack of understanding of what movie productions can and cannot do.
I find it odd that you a critical of adding strong women to these (did you miss Èowyn, niece of Theoden King, killer with Merridoc, of the Witch King of Angmar). Or that in the “Lost Tales” was one of the mightiest elves of Gondolin, and grandmother of Arwen and mother-in-law of Elrond Half Elf. The addition of Teriel merely added some romance, made for the adults in the audience. Jackson made it work beautifully, a love triangle of elf-dwarf-elf (remember in the books, elves and dwarves were much friendlier than Jackson introducing conflict and to make Gimli’s suspicion of elves more logical by the way the Sylvan elfs treatment by King Thranduil). But the inclusion of strong female characters were logical, as female elves, like Israeli Army females, fighters along side men, was something Tolkein tried to do, but he was man of the late and waning of the Victorian Age and the decrease of the British Empire. You can look this up for yourself, but there was an British Queen who was a warrior as well as monarch and died in combat.
i do have my problems with the money men who shortened the movies, but I always ended up getting the “Extended Versions” as they always made more sense, as the addition of the discovery of Theodred’s mortally injured body after the Battle of Fords against Sauroman’s orcs. In the theatrical release, we only see the Eomer carrying Theodred’s back with no explanation, filled out in the extended version so there was context.
Criticize Jackson all you want, but I think of no other director/writer/producer who could have pulled it off.
Xuebao, I think you missed the bit where I said “I am bang on board with the idea of (1) having women in the movie and (2) giving them something to do. But.”
It’s the execution that bothered me, not their addition!
I have to say I didn’t mind the whole “goblins are chasing them through the whole movie, because Thorin has a goblin as an old nemesis” thing that they did. Movies are a different medium than books, and in a movie it would have been awkward for them to get away from the goblins in the caves, and then have them randomly show up again at the battle. People would have been like, “What? The Goblins? Those creatures we saw three hours ago? There wasn’t enough build-up to that!”
What did bother me was the fact that Thorin’s old nemesis was Azog. It was rediculous. They could have easily used Bolg. In fact, if they had stuck to doing just two movies, they could have had Bolg (in the role that Azog has in the movies) first mention be when the Goblins capture them in the Misty Mountains. The first time the audience finds out about him could be when the Great Goblin mentions him, and it would have been more interesting.
Then, they could have had the “Out of the Frying Pan” scene, with Bolg leading the attack instead of Azog, and this could have been his first appearance. Than, when the tree falls, and the two Dwarves are holding Gandalf’s staff, they lose grip in only a few seconds and immediately fall on the back of the arriving eagle. That’s right, Thorin won’t try to kill Bolg, and Bilbo won’t rescue any Dwarves until they enter Mirkwood. (Back when it was going to be two movies, the escape from the Wood Elves was going to be the climax of the film, so that probably could be when the Dwarves realize they were wrong about him. They could also see the lonely mountain when arriving in Lake Town, and then we could go to the “Smaug’s Eye” ending, which was awesome, and begin the second film with them traveling to the mountain from Lake Town).
Then, on the Carrock, Balin could tell Bilbo about the Battle of Moria, which would be the ONLY appearance of Azog in the film. Instead, of Thorin cutting of Azog’s hand, he cuts off his head, and then Azog’s son, Bolg, swears revenge, and this is why he is Thorin’s nemesis.
It just would have worked so well. I don’t know why they didn’t just do it that way.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that were something left over from before Peter Jackson was given the films, and they simply didn’t have the time to rehash it totally and just had to run with it…