Oh my God, Becky, look who’s back: me, with a Wheel of Time post! Again! What a world, what a world.
Today’s post completes my thoroughly odd trilogy of Best Moments and Worst Moments in the Wheel of Time, by adding a third category to what anyone normal would consider a dichotomy: a list of the Best Worst Moments of the Wheel of Time. Or maybe the Worst Best Moments?
Look, I don’t know, you don’t know, nobody knows, it’s fine. This whole thing is mainly just an excuse to be all like, hey, remember when that thing happened in the Wheel of Time and we all had feelings about it?, so I feel like everyone will be okay and have a good time with it in the end.
So if having feelings about Wheel of Time things seems like your bag, click on!
First, as ever and always, amen, be warned that there are humongous series-shredding SPOILERS for the entire Wheel of Time series below, so if you haven’t read, I really recommend that you give this post a miss. Like for reals, I spoil every damn thing in here.
Second, I sort of explained this in the Worst Moments post, but to recap: I was having a dilemma about what “Worst” actually meant in the context of moments in the Wheel of Time (or in general, really), and concluded that that could mean two very different things depending on context, and that really both interpretations deserved some love from moi, so here we are. Thus, the last post was the Top Five-ish actual Worst Moments of WOT (in my arrogant opinion, natch), and this post is about the Worst Best Moments – i.e. the moments that were so terrible they were awesome. You’ll see what I mean when you read them.
So let’s read them, shall we?
Best/Worst Moment No. 5: Egwene is captured and made damane (The Great Hunt)
“Many sul’dam,” Renna went on in that almost friendly tone, “do not believe damane should be allowed names, or at least only names they are given. But I am the one who took you, so I will be in charge of your training, and I will allow you to keep your own name. If you do not displease me too far. I am mildly upset with you now. Do you really wish to keep on until I am angry?”
Quivering, Egwene gritted her teeth. Her nails dug into her palms with the effort of not scratching wildly. Idiot! It’s only your name. “Egwene,” she managed to get out. “I am Egwene al’Vere.” Instantly the burning itch was gone. She let out a long, unsteady breath.
“Egwene,” Renna said. “That is a good name.” And to Egwene’s horror, Renna patted her on the head as she would a dog.
That, she realized, was what she had detected in the woman’s voice—a certain good will for a dog in training, not quite the friendliness one might have toward another human being.
OMG I PUNCH U
I think it is fairrrrly predictable by now what kinds of things are likely to redline my Rage-o-Meter, and “personal autonomy, comma, the deprivation thereof” is a vital element in just about all of them. So it’s no surprise, in retrospect, that this was the first event in the Wheel of Time that made me have to actually put the book down and walk away for a bit. It definitely wasn’t the last, but it was the first. Ergo, here we be.
It was also what first formed my initial, and very, very bad, impression of the Seanchan nation – one which they never did redeem themselves from, at least not as far as I was concerned. Yeah, sure, they fought on the Light side in the Last Battle, whatever; just because they were against Ultimate World-Smushing Evil doesn’t mean they get a pass on their egregious Fail when it comes to human rights. And Aviendha’s trip to the future showed that the chances were good that even after the Last Battle the Seanchan were going to keep right on imperialistically sucking. Bah.
So yeah, this whole sequence was wonderfully done, but it also made me hopping mad, and ergo, its entry here.
Best/Worst Moment No. 4: Dumai’s Wells (Lord of Chaos)
They will pay, Lews Therin growled. I am the Lord of the Morning.
Ha ha, you thought I wasn’t going to mention this one, didn’t you? Well, you were wrong.
But for me, Dumai’s Wells definitely goes here instead of in unadulterated “Best” moments, because while it was unquestionably one hell of a battle scene (wolf army, yay!), and everything you could want in a narrative “dramatic tension” sense, it was also a “victory” for the Light whose sheer darkness wouldn’t be equaled until events in The Gathering Storm. It may have been awesome to read, but Dumai’s Wells was not a good thing, you guys.
As I said in the original commentary: “I believe that in a way, to rejoice in the way LOC ended is to almost miss the point entirely. By which I mean, I don’t think Dumai’s Wells was really meant to be a victory at all.
“Oh sure, it was a victory in the sense that the Good Guys won the actual fight, but given the way they won it, through what can only be described as a wholesale massacre, and the state of affairs Our Heroes are left with as a result – distrust, dissension, massive casualties, forcible coercion of allies, a political situation in shambles, and a savior left more than halfway unhinged – Dumai’s Wells is better described as a Pyrrhic victory than anything else. As Pyrrhus himself would say, ‘Another such victory over the [Shadow] and we are undone.’ And the insupportable cost is not measured so much in the physical losses, but in the degree to which the moral high ground is lost. Our Good Guys, in the end, didn’t act much like Good Guys at all, and that will (and does) take a serious toll. Chaos, indeed.”
Yep.
Best/Worst Moment No. 3: Semirhage controls Rand with the Domination Band (The Gathering Storm)
What have you done? Lews Therin asked. Oh, Light. Better to have killed again than to do this… Oh, Light. We are doomed.
Rand savored the power for a moment longer, then—regretfully—let it drop away. He would have held on, but he was simply too exhausted. The vanishing of it left him numb.
Oh… no. That numbness had nothing to do with the power he’d held.
[… ] “It is done,” Rand whispered.
“What?” Min asked, coughing again.
“The last that could be done to me,” he said, surprised at his own calmness. “They have taken everything from me now.”
Well, that wasn’t terrifying or upsetting or terribly sad or anything.
TGS as a whole was Rand’s nadir as a character, but this scene was the catalyst for that, and it was awful, awful, awful to read as a fan. As a writer, on the other hand, it gets a decisive nod of “yeah, that had to happen”.
Dramatically speaking, after everything Rand went through over the course of the series, if he hadn’t had some kind of rock bottom snapping point it would have cheapened the entire story. A world savior Messiah figure doesn’t get to play the game on the “Easy” setting; the greater the triumph being striven for, the heavier the corresponding price must be. Them’s the breaks, fictional Messiah figgers, sorry.
So, the story had to go there, in one form or another. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t horrible to watch him go through, though. And keep going through, all through the book, getting worse and worse. Which, of course, brings us to:
Best/Worst Moment No. 2: Rand Almost Commits Worldicide (The Gathering Storm)
Rand raised his arms high, a conduit of power and energy. An incarnation of death and destruction. He would end it. End it all and let men rest, finally, from their suffering. Stop them from having to live over and over again. Why? Why had the Creator done this to them? Why?
Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.
Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?
Maybe… Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be… Maybe it’s so that we can have a second chance.
Rand froze. The winds blew against him, but he could not be moved by them. The Power hesitated inside him, like the headsman’s axe, held quivering above the criminal’s neck. You may not have a choice about which duties are given you, Tam’s voice, just a memory, said in his mind. But you can choose why you fulfill them.
Why, Rand? Why do you go to battle? What is the point?
Why?
All was still. Even with the tempest, the winds, the crashes of thunder. All was still.
Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.
When I initially read TGS, I actually found this ending a little anticlimactic – being, as it were, basically a guy sitting on top of a mountain yelling at himself. However, I soon came to realize that this was a seriously unfair interpretation of the importance of the conflict on display here.
For if it is narratively mandatory, as I just said above, that your Big Damn Hero has a Big Damn Nadir, then he is just as irrevocably owed a Big Damn Redemption, too. The central conflict for Rand in TGS *was* all internal, and thus its resolution had to be as well. As I said at the time:
“It had to be done. We could not have continued forward with a hero whose purpose had been so thoroughly lost. Rand had to win the battle with himself if he was to have a hope of winning the battle with the Dark One; he could not have had a hope of succeeding if any part of him still agreed with his opposite number’s goals.”
However painful it may have been to watch him get there. So while this was probably the happiest Big Ass Ending of, well, basically any other WoT book (including the last one!), the journey we (and Rand) had to take to get there was… rough, to say the least.
So there. And now, some honorable mentions!
Honorable Mention #1: The Tower Coup (The Shadow Rising)
It may seem like small potatoes/old hat now, but Elaida’s bloody coup and everything it wrought (in particular Siuan and Leane’s stilling, a thing which we believed at that point to be irreversible) was shocking at the time. Not to mention upsetting. I was appalled, you guys, and I’m pretty sure I wasn’t the only one.
(Not to also mention, it featured Frickin’ Gawyn being perhaps his most Frickingly Fricked buttmunch self in the whole series. Yes, Prince Gawyn, let’s hear your rationale for supporting a violent usurper of (the functional equivalent of) a monarch and world leader, do frickin’ tell. Ugh.)
The Tower coup also, as I observed in the Redux Reread, represented a pivotal turning point in the series, marking as it did the first major defeat for the Light, and the first time, I think, where it truly seemed that it was possible for the Good Guys to actually lose. So it sucked, and it was awesome. Q.E.D.
Honorable Mention #2: Aviendha goes through the Wayforward Ter’Angreal (Towers of Midnight)
I know, I know, this was on the “Best Of” list. But really it belongs here, given how deeply upsetting and freakin’ amazing it was, and if I’d known I was going to do this post this way at the time I did the first post, I’d have changed it. My bad. But since I have already mentioned it, it gets an honorable mention rather than a slot on the list proper. That’s according to the rules I just made up, nyah!
Honorable Mention #3: The Asmodean Murder Mystery of Doom (The Fires of Heaven)
He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.
“You? No!” The word still hung in the air when death took him.
So, on the one hand, we the fandom spent years and years arguing theories – and I personally spent a nearly obscene amount of time laboriously winnowing through and distilling those theories for WOTFAQ-updating purposes – over a murder mystery that was, in retrospect, arguably impossible to solve from the get-go with the information we had available. Even more so if you believe that Jordan changed his mind midstream, and only made Graendal the killer once he decided that Taim was not Demandred. Which is not awesome.
On the other hand, we the fandom spent years and years having a fabulous time arguing about fictional murderous characters on the internet like the glorious nerds we are, and having meetups and gatherings and even conventions about it. And I personally made friends as a result that I still have today, and who are some of the most wonderful people I will ever know. Which is most decidedly awesome.
So there. And with that, we come to (drumroll plz):
Best/Worst Moment No. 1: Egwene’s death (A Memory of Light)
She closed her eyes and drew in the power. More than a woman should be able to, more than was right. Far beyond safety, far beyond wisdom. This sa’angreal had no buffer to prevent this.
Her body was spent. She offered it up and became a column of light, releasing the Flame of Tar Valon into the ground beneath her and high into the sky. The Power left her in a quiet, beautiful explosion, washing across the Sharans and sealing the cracks created by her fight with M’Hael.
Egwene’s soul separated from her collapsing body and rested upon that wave, riding it into the Light.
Yep, still makes me tear up. You can read my whole reaction in the Reread, but here’s the gist:
“She was my Ooh Ooh Girl, and so maybe it might have hurt me even more than it should have to see her die, even as it filled me with a kind of terrible pride to see her go down in such a (literal) blaze of glory. She didn’t just take down her opposite; she also saved the world while doing it, because if I’m reading this right, if she hadn’t done what she did Rand might not have had a world left to save, so it totally counts. Her stint as Amyrlin has to be the briefest and yet most spectacular in the history of the Tower, so take that, traditionalists!”
There are probably more gut-wrenching (or at least more famously gut-wrenching) character deaths out there than Egwene’s, but for me personally hers hit me harder than nearly any other. You just can’t invest the kind of time and effort and love on this story and these characters as I have and not feel that blow on a visceral level.
Well, I can’t, anyway. So if you want my opinion on the epitome of a terrible wonderful Best/Worst Moment in the Wheel of Time, there really can’t possibly be any other moment that qualifies more thoroughly. Rest in Fictional Peace, Egwene al’Vere; as far as I’m concerned, at least, your place in Crowning Moment of Bittersweet Awesome history is secure.
And there you have it, WOTers! Thanks for coming with me on this trip down WOT memory lane, and if you had a good time here, maybe you’ll want to check out how fellow Tor.com blogger Kelsey Jefferson Barrett is finding it on his First Read of the Wheel of Time!
Love, luck and lollipops to you, my friends. Stay tuned for a new Nostalgia Rewatch post, coming soon. Until then, cheers!
“RAAAAHVIIIIN!”
I will go to my grave still being completely sure that Asmodean was killed in some gigantic Purple Ajah conspiracy being led by Verin who was indeed an Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends, or possibly just Demandred. I don’t care if the text says I’m wrong, I spent too much time theorizing and reading the FAQ to be wrong.
Bela’s Death.
(And yes I’m aware that the Companion retconned her death. But I don’t care. That was one of the best/worst moments for me.)
(It’s always the animals that get me)
All true except for Asmodean. Of all these the really worst ones were the coup and Aviendha’s trip. Siuan’s death was also a hard blow
Heartily agree with the Tower coup being on here. That struck me *hard*. I was just stunned Jordan went there and removed the “friendly” leadership of the Tower who we had slowly come to understand and appreciate. It was a beautiful example of things catching up to a character in a way that I hadn’t conceived possible, but totally understandable and realistic. Siuan, you going to go ahead and do things your way and not hedge enough against the possibility of mutiny? Well do what you want…but now time to pay the price. Wonderful lesson in consequences here.
Another one I’d highlight is not Dumai’s Wells, but from briefly before it…when Rand gets captured and stuffed in a box. That was another moment that simply stunned me. Wait – Rand(our hero!) is getting captured? And no one knows about it? And he’s in a box? And the enemy Aes Sedai are spiriting him away? I was gripped and couldn’t stop reading until the end of LoC because I HAD TO KNOW how this was going to be resolved. It was terrible and chilling when he got shielded from source and oh was it masterfully done.
Was unaffected by Egwene’s death. She had become one of the most self righteous and irritating characters in the series.
Hopper’s death in TEOTW. Absolutely necessary but my first heart-wrenching moment.
Disagree about Gawyn’s role in the Tower Rebellion. He did many stupid and indefensible things throughout the books. Reacting negatively to Siuan sending the Daughter Heir he was sworn from birth to protect into danger and refusing to tell him anything at all about it was not one of them.
Disagree as well about Rand using the True Power to kill Semhirhage. Excellent resolution of an inescapable dilemma with the added bonus of Semmi’s shock and dismay at the Great Lord’s betrayal of her.
I definitely agree with you about Dumai’s Wells here – plus it just served as demonstration of how brutal Mazrim Taim was and the reality of forging people as ‘weapons’.
I think to go along with that I’d include Rand’s capture and stuffing in the chest as that was fairly traumatic and caused so many other downstream problems. Other moments I might include would be:
-The fate of Perrin’s family
-The story of the Mydraal dragging away relatives at the wedding feast (was it Fain’s family?)
-Anything with the gholam (actually gave me nightmares)
-The breakup of the Aiel after Rand revealed the truth (especially al the Couladin/Sevaana nonsense)
Nice analysis and explanation, Leigh.
How about Birgitte’s murder, and pregnant Elayne’s about to be murder in AMOL by one of the slimiest, vilest characters in the entire series? Truly horrifying, only to be saved by the second blowing of the HoV.
Speaking about best/worst, did we overlook “Suffa is a good damane….”?
‘Suffa is a good damane’ belongs on a list of Top Five Awful People Get Awful Karma, but It’s Still Too Awful To Really Enjoy Perhaps along with Moggy’s fate with Ishamael/Shaidar Haran in the mindtrap. And didn’t some Darkfriend get drowned to death with a barrel of whiskey/ale?
Maybe even, depending on how you feel about her character, Tylin and the gholam would go on this list.
(Speaking of karma, you know who REALLY escaped karma? Freaking Berelain).
Edited, seeing bottom comment: Dumai’s Wells might also qualify for this list ;)
Agreed with all…except for Dumai’s Wells. Perhaps because I was so angry at the Shaido and scheming Sevanna and the scheming Elaida-supporting Aes Sedai (along with some black sisters) that their annihilation was something I wanted. Also, seeing the Asha’man (men?) in action in a battle situation was simply amazing. Plus Perrin and the wolves and the Two Rivers army (etc.) fighting was similarly awesome.
Egwene’s death of was on my worst-best list. Here are my four others.
1) Brigitte’s death and Elayne’s almost untimely C-section. Elayne had been in many dangerous situations. But all the prior ones, I never felt that she might actually die. This was the first time I actually thought that she might not survive. (I know there was the vision of the 3 women overlooking Rand’s funeral pyre. But that could have been gotten around by some artful interpretation. I do not think anybody assumed the silver light about Sheriam was the headsman axe reflected on a blue sky.
2) The Battle of Maradon. It looked helpless for Ituralde. We went from an almost helpless situation to a seeming miracle by Rand where he destroyed a significant host of Trollocs. It may have saved Team Light since I do not think they had the manpower to man a fifth front during the Battles of the Four Fronts in AMoL.
3) Min’s viewing of Gawyn after he agreed to let Min, Siuan and Leanne out of the Tower grounds. Up to that point, we had never seen a double viewing (or if we had, never one so strong). It was so strong that as a reader, I almost was shivering as much as Min.
4) At the end of the TGH, Min is under the covers with Rand trying to keep him using her body heat long enough to have somebody (most likely Nynaeve) could heal him. In walks a women who is the most beautiful women Min has ever seen. It made her feel like she could not compare with such beauty. After healing Rand, this woman is about to leave when she casually mentions that she is one of the most feared women in all of history: Lanfear. A women who had loved the prior incarnation of the Dragon and who said she would eventually come for the Rand, the Dragon Reborn. Min already saw the viewing that she would fall in love with Rand. At this point, the characters (and certainly Min) were not accustomed to facing these so-called demi-gods from the past. Over time the present day Randlanders would learn that the Forsaken were as fallible as everybody else. But at the end of TGH, the Forsaken were thought to be far superior to everybody else.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
For me, I always tear up when I get to the Rand on the Mountaintop moment in TGS – it just has some incredible visuals in there, and the emotion of the whole scene always gets me. Oh, and then to see that same moment from Perrin’s perspective later in T’A’R with all the wolves…amaze-balls, y’all
@@@@@ 5 – While seeing Rand stuffed in a box was bad, it wasn’t so crazy or awful to me. I mean, we all sort of knew that he was going to get out of said box, and probably in suitably Heroic fashion. I think the downstream implications of it (his claustrophobia and the emergence of Lews Therin) are severe, but in the moment I was not worried. That being said, I think Leigh’s point about Dumai’s Wells is well taken (hah). That was a brutal moment disguised as a defeat; we see the first time that Rand is willing to dehumanize his own allies, and slaughter his human enemies indiscriminately, in the name of victory.
My personal worst was Rand and Tam’s confrontation in TGS. So much emotion in that scene, and you go into it expecting Tam to help Rand through one of the core problems he’s had in the series (his identity and moral grounding as a Two Riversman and his identity as the Dragon Reborn and this product of prophecy through Janduin and Tigraine). And it gets dangled there SO tantalizingly, and then Rand flips his shit and goes off to destroy the world. I thought that snapping point was more impactful than his eventual realization that, no, he probably shouldn’t destroy the world.
The scene with the Dominion Band was the kicker for me. I slammed the book shut at that point and nearly threw it across the room, which was a really bad idea since I was on an airplane at the time. I couldn’t see any way that Rand was coming back from that moment. I had to go reread Brandon’s intro to The Gathering Storm half a dozen times where he tells the reader that he had seen the ending and it was good. Of course, Rand is redeemed later in the book (which I finished on the return flight) and I realized that to make that ending so good, it had to get that dark first. But I sure didn’t have to like it.
@14 That’s a good (bad) one. And the part in the next book where Rand asks forgiveness is great and emotional too.
DarkRand picking up poor Hurin in flows of air and considering the Nuke From Orbit option against the Borderland armies was pretty bad too.
Egwene’s death to me is the most gut-wrenching simply because she’s the only one of The Fellowship that did not survive (though Rand is in a different body and assumed dead). Even Lan, Thom and Moiraine live.
Gotta agree with all these choices, TGS was basically one demoralizing blow after another. I found nothing positive about Rand using balefire to attack Graendal, or even worse his using the TP to kill Semhirage right after being forced to strangle Min, then the finally beating his own father and then going to dragonmount to destroy the world. After years of investment in the series and internally debating which characters I relate to the most depending on how I feel that day (you all do it don’t lie!) TGS was so demoralizing. It was like a bunch of Dumai’s Wells.
For this list I’d like to add the entire prologue to MOL. In my opinion this part of the series conveyed a sense of impending doom more than any part of the entire series, it was a calm before the storm and it literally gave me nightmares the first time I read it. The Black Tower has fallen to the shadow, Talmanes and the Band lose Caemlyn and almost lose the dragons to the shadow (which would have been almost as bad as the shadow having the horn of valere), and Jarid Sarand’s men fashion weapons out of sticks and stones because their metal has melted and march to the last battle.
What I loved so much about this prologue is the focus on the characters of lesser, or no, importance. Imagine how Sarand’s men feel, they’ve been following a noble their whole lives thinking that their struggle will be to put their man on the throne of Andor. But they hear stories of the world ending, of wars on the scale of hundreds of thousands, of evil walking the world, and they can see the sky turn insane, see their weapons melt into puddles. Everything they knew and valued, their entire system of politics and livelihood, has changed in a matter of what, 2 years? These men don’t have the One Power or any power or influence. And the only thing they can do is make spears and stone clubs and march north to their deaths because if humanity doesn’t throw itself into a meat grinder the entire world will end.
In a series that’s in a proverbial arms race to up the ante of awesome shit and displays of the One Power with each book; this is the ground floor of the Last Battle, these men are the line in the sand against the shadow and indeed their individual sacrifices will be like grains of sand on a beach when this is all done.
I must say that I kinda disagree with Dumai’s Wells. While it wasn’t raw, raw, sis-boom, we beat the forces of the DO, the Shaido certainly needed a beat down. I don’t see what all the hubbub is about in that regard, any more than the Battle of Cairhien. Yes it was horrific, and the Asha’man are scary, with wide ranging implications on their use and place, but it is war, and there was nothing criminal about killing the other guys as efficiently as you can before they kill you. As for the Aes Sadai, on both sides, they most certainly got what they had coming to them and earned their respective fates: it needed to happen. The tremendous psychological effects on Rand and others could mostly be laid at the feet of the Tower putting him in a box and beating him over and extended period of time, not the battle itself.
@10 Jaichim “Bors” Carridin was the Darkfriend who was drowned with Brandy. Also in regards to Berelain I would say being stuck with Galad Damodred would be a pretty crappy fate. I’m sure Elayne would agree with me here.
@8 I could be wrong but I think the story about the Myrdraal killing people at a wedding was also Jaichim’s family, I remeber the Myrdraal were killing off his family one by one as punishment for his failure to do… something.
My first thought when hearing the headline of best/worst moments was the reveal of the Sharan army on team shadow. In retrospect it was very much a parallel to finding out Sauron had human armies from the east at his disposal, but whether there were never any hints or I just missed them (too long ago to recall), I remember being completely caught off guard by that moment and hitting rock bottom on the thoughts of maybe this thing doesn’t have a happy ending.
– Rand, Min and Semirhage
– Natrin’s Barrow
– Let the lord of chaos rule
– Rand in a box
– Asha’man, kill
Galad “Redeeming” the white cloaks. Sorry, too much evil has been done by these; and too much wrong-headed hate still being shown in the ranks for me to consider these self-serving, self-righteous scum as anything but bad guys.
1. Semirhage incident, the psychological damage to Rand, savior of the world, was just unnerving .
2.Rand in a box. The Aes Sedai are supposed to be a pillar of light who should support the champion of light. Instead they stuff him in a box only to let him out for twice a day to be beaten with no healing. He most likely was covered in his own excrement. This is when I started to hate the Aes Sedan as a whole.
3. White Tower coup.
4. Bela and Hopper’s death.
5. Natrim’s Barrow. That was when it finally sunk in to me how low and damaged Rand had become.
I didn’t care when Egwene died. I never really liked her that much. Not like Nyneave and Elayne.
My God people does nobody remember moraine and when she died, I was in complete shock at that one.
Mat giving up half the light of the world either?
See, “Children of the Light”.
Another point about Dumai’s Wells. This monumental screw up marked the beginning of the end for both the Red and Black Ajahs. Even if they were practically the same thing. For so many reasons it was a pivotal point in the series.
Interesting list. I have to echo a few others here and disagree with characterizing Dumai’s Wells as a “best-worst” moment. The real “best-worst” moment was the Aes Sedai capturing Rand and placing him in a box, to be beaten and “watered” 2x a day. Dumai’s Wells was a rescue operation directly linked to the “best-worst” moment.
As to Dumai’s Wells not being “a good thing,” neither was Rand going through the way back machine (it was actually kind of depressing, if you think about it), which Leigh ranked as her #1 Best moment. (Or the Honorable Mention of Aviendha traveling through the way forward machine, for that matter; that is all kinds of depressing). Both the way-back machine experience and Dumai’s Wells highlighted some pretty depressing actions and both led to Rand expanding his base of allies. Dumai’s Wells excelled even further by having Rand and his forces defeat a large number of the treacherous Shaido and a large number of the treacherous Aes Sedai tower contingent. But, yeah, being “a good thing” doesn’t seem to necessarily be a prerequisite for being a “Best” moment.
As for the “distrust, dissension, massive casualties, forcible coercion of allies, a political situation in shambles, and a savior left more than halfway unhinged” that Leigh mentions, that is a direct result of the capture (and abuse) of Rand by the Aes Sedai. The rescue effort did contribute to that, but the main course of action that set all of the events in motion was the actual abduction. So really, if there’s a “best-worst” moment in there, it’s the capture and subsequent abuse of the captive, not the actual rescue.
I can’t believe no one has mentioned this one yet.
What about at the end AMoL when it’s “Rrand’s” funeral and Tam breaks down saying goodbye to Rand? Cried so hard I had to stop reading. What the hecl did Tam do to deseve that?
Lisamarie @10: “Top Five Awful People Get Awful Karma, but It’s Still Too Awful To Really Enjoy”:
I was…thirteen, maybe? when the White Tower Coup happened, so I didn’t really have the maturity to process how big a deal it was, so it doesn’t have very much emotional weight to me.
I straight up cried when Egwene died, though.
Bela
Agree with everything except Egwene. I cheered internally at her death because she had become insufferable and hands down my least favourite character in the entire series.
I’d probably replace that #1 spot with Rand coming a hair’s breadth from killing Tam when he showed up in the Stone. That one hurt to read.
Biter @2-
There are links in these posts demonstrating that RJ changed his mind about certain things after publication.
Your attempt at snark is misguided.
@5 I remember my heart felt like it wanted to jump out of my jump out of my chest when I read that part. Rand’s capture would with question be the no.1 moment on my version of this list. I agree that Dumai Wells ended up doing more harm than good in the long run but i don’t really care. Seeing the Red Ajah get their comeuppance (by way of Ashaman no less) was viscerally satisfying. (The fact that Galina is actually Black doesn’t qualify, even if she weren’t she would totally have gone for this plan).
I am also one who thinks that the Aes Sedai stuffing Rand into the box was the “best-worst” moment in the series. Not only was it horrific abuse (he is unable to move for ten days, the trunk is left in the hot sun, he is beaten, etc), but the mental trauma that came from it led to Rand totally going off the deep end in subsequent books. So much stems from this moment: Lews Therin fully emerging, his hatred of Aes Sedai, his mistrust of everyone, including his allies, and his overall sense of paranoia, anger, and lack of control of his emotions. This is a dangerous state for one of the most powerful channelers in the world the be in. And it was all for Elaida’s ego, so she could keep him as a pet. Ugh.
One of my other worst moments is Morraine’s death scene. So much that followed might have been avoided had she been alive and present, including the box scene mentioned above. She was the one Aes Sedai Rand trusted. That scene really hit hard when I first read it.
Also, anything involving Therava and/or Galina. Yuck.
@33 Snark is never misguided. Snark is a release, but your attempt at shaming me is noted.
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The one scene that literally made me shake of thrill, was when Lan did his final charge in Tarwin’s gap, having embraced his pending death but determined to drag along all shadowspawn that he could, and then hearing the drums of the horses that was too loud, when gates are opening and hordes of Borderlander cavalry are pouring out joining the charge. I’m tearing up again remembering it.
The build up was so well done, Lan fighting a lost fight, and Rand showing just in time he didn’t forget about him.
Rhuarc c’mon. So loyal. Compulsion and killed by avenedha?! Grrrrrrrr.
Gawyn backing Elaida in the Tower coup was perfectly reasonable. Him doing anything else, given the information he had, would have been unbelievable. He backed the Aes Sedai who he’d grown up with, and who had supported his mother, rather than the one who had misplaced his sister (not once, but twice!), the person he was oath sworn to protect until his death. Since the Super Girls decided he wasn’t worthy of being in the loop, he didn’t have access to information that he should have had, by right. His literal job from birth, what had been instilled in him over and over again by his mother and his country, was that protecting Elayne was his one and only responsibility. I’ve never understood casting the blame on Gawyn here.
@40 I see your point, but not sure I agree:
Who he knew his sister was opposed to and did not like. The one his Mother refused to bring back with her.
Also instilled in him from birth was to serve and obey said Sister in preparation for when she assumes the throne and High Seat of House Trakand. Not presume he knew what was best for her, and make decisions on her behalf. His continual “They are only Accepted, they can’t possible understand the inner workings of the Tower and make informed decisions, I’ll do it for them” attitude towards both Elayne and Egwene was really grating. Galad displays this attitude in spades as well, and it serves as the primary evidence that the Super Girls were right to cut them out.
I agree, Rand in a box was a big deal. Amazingly, I’d forgotten much about that until my recent reread of LoC. On reread I’ve devided LoC is one of my favs as a whole.
Maybe not worthy of top five, but one that occured to me: the irreversible compulsion on the four great generals that led to them sabotaging their own side. I definitely said a lot of “oh shit, nooooo” when that unfolded, so sad both for the Light but also for those four characters, who basically lost their identity and livelihood and didn’t they all end up dead? Sniff. Of course it set up Mat to be The General dude, great for his arc, and as a story point a genius move by team Dark One that I did not see coming, so I appreciated the storiness of it, but so sad!
I second the angry feels at Rhuarc’s fate! I think I texted my friend who was reading too but ahead of me a bunch of frowny faces when I got to that part.
I am sad to see these lists end. What about a list of the most touching small moments? Best one-liners? Most interesting tertiary characters?
Ooh, I will also nominate the series of moments when our favorite group of misfit Soldiers and Dedicated and one Red Sister realize that Taim is not just a jerk, but a Shadow agent who has already Turned most of the Black Tower to the Shadow. That is a huge oh shit for the Light that is rich with story irony. Rand never paid the Asha’man much attention, what with going nuts and being otherwise occupied with Dragony stuff, but that lack of attention is coming back to bite him now. The idealism behind his vision for the black tower was always and endearing part of his character, at the same time that his remaining naievity and inability to notice or care about Taim’s obvious sketchiness was pretty painful. And if course the irony, that the thing everybody feared, men channeling, has created a powerful enemy for the Light, just as saidin has been cleansed and channelers are finally beginning to accept it and starting to imagine how they can work together. And all that darkness of course makes the ultimate ascendance of the Asha’man to a place of honor in society that much sweeter.
That’s interesting to put Egwene’s death as the number 1 moment.
Her death and blaze of glory is not what I remembered and took away from her death. I remember how, in that moment before she surrendered to death, she remembered Gwayne, and the way their life has played out this time … and will play out the next time.
And although it was never explicitly spelled like this, I think Egwene and Gwayne were the last Queen and King of Manetheren reborn, replaying the events back then then with parallels and contrasts: An Aes Sedai Queen and a Warder King; A young Amyerlin and her Warder prince; A jealous Red Ajah Amerlyn that connived to destroy Manetheran in the Trolloc Wars; A power-hungry Red Ajah Amerlyn that split the Tower, leading to a rebel Amerlyn trying to bring the Tower back to wholeness; The warder king dying in a last stand; The warder prince dying in a duel in the Last Battle; The shock of death leading to the Aes Sedai Queen wipes out the Trolloc army; The shock of death where this time, leading to saving the world at a crucial moment.
A peace that steals over her, knowing that, what came around will come again; they had met before and will meet again.
The thing I think about is, how things come back around … now that Rand ascended, when that Age comes around again, who will be the next messiah when the Dark One gets free again? I think it would be Demandred. And the story would be much more compelling. Rand was able to resist the Dark One for a long time because in all those lives and parallel lives, he never gave in or chose the Dark One. Demandred did. And at the very end there, he was starting to change. Rand saved the world from darkness, but I think it will be Demandred bring the world back to wholeness.
For me the best-worst moment was when Rand almost killed Tam.
Similarly, the best-best moment, was when Rand hugged Tam and broke down and cried in “The Towers of Midnight”.
Also, by the time I read “A Memory of Light” Egwene had by far become the worst, most annoying character in the book. She actually reminds me of Trump. Egotistical, self-righteous, completely unwilling to listen to anybody else because of course she knows best, manipulative, extorting others. She exemplified everything that people dislike about Aes Sedai. She was so caught up in her own self-importance, and supposed superiority that others just became pawns to be controlled by her, because again, of course she knows best. I find it ironic that she actually became very similar to the thing she hated most, a sul’dam. She treated others as objects to do her bidding, she didn’t use as horrific a means as using an A’dam. But although, the means were different, the end goal was similar (causing others to swear fealty to her, etc…)
Her death was not a worst scene for me
The Worst Moment for me was the ending.
it just sort of petered out, not with a whimper or a scream, It just sort of ended.
and it ended in a completely unsatisfactory way IMO.
none of the predictions on wives or children for Rand etc..
Let’s face it, we all have our favorite/most despised/etc moments from this series. It was too long and involved to not have such moments, and no writer could ever totally please his fans. That offered, I have a few of mine own. My love of the Dumai’s Wells battle was epic and strong. Sure, it was dark, but it was too awesome to not love, for me. “Rolling ring of Earth and Fire!” pretty much did it for me. Also, I was more, “YES!! OH MY F***ING GOD!!” when Rand used the True Power that first time.
My best-worsts would go something like this: 5. When Cadsuane pools Haring in her place. The seafood were almost unnecessary, IMO, and even Harine’s hopefulness at getting some revenge inside Far Madding makes it more so. 4. Shaidar Haran’s final moment. After all that buildup of the character, being no more than a “husk” not only made zero sense, as there was no butterfly-esque transformation, but it tore any meaning the DO’s avatar might have had. I couldn’t be the only reader who thought Rand was going to be battling Shaidar Haran as part of the Last Battle. 3. Birgitte’s death and quick return was a timely thing, and I was a tad bereft when Birgitte got beheaded there, but I’d totally bought into her as being ejected from the Wheel’s spinning, as Moghedien said. Therefore, her immediate return, so far from where the Horn was sounded, was a cheesy thing to my eye. I did like her though, a top 5 character in my opinion. 2. Egwene dying but taking out a new Forsaken at the same time tied with her victory over Messanna as a best worst for me. I really hated Egwene after a time. She went from a determined but meek young woman with many likeable qualities to the most arrogant and overweening cow almost overnight. Yes, we all know girls mature faster than boys and all that, but she is tied with Elayne as the most youthful character(main character that is), and yet even Elayne, born and raised as a future queen, hasn’t a patch on the arrogance Egwene evinces every event. I was almost happy when she bit it. 1. I think the best worst moment for me was the whole Ishmael thing. In A Memory of Light, Rand thinks he was punished for failure because he had ‘begun to believe he was the Dark One himself.’ Ishmael switched sides because he felt the Dark One would win inevitably, if not this turn, then in some future turning of the wheel. It is said, over and over in the series, as is Ishmael’s need to know more than he did. In every way, he did exactly what his master wanted. If you read the dialogue, at no point does he ever call himself the DO, in fact, he laughs derisively at Rand when he sees that our hero thinks Ishmael is the DO. The explanation was beyond weak, it rendered Rand’s opposite as a bare shadow of the man he became in the DO’s service. And somehow, this immortal man, so incredibly well versed in this world and all its many artifacts somehow didn’t know about Callandor’s flaw? I see it was necessary to have someone on the DO’s side use the sword that wasn’t a sword this way, but the most knowledgeable and longest serving seeker after knowledge that Ishmael was probably should have known about the flaw, after all, he was still alive when it was made, may indeed have been one of its creators.
Honorable mentions: that the Nine Rods of Dominion never showed up, beyond the one Demandred had. That Mat got so butchered by Sanderson. That it wasn’t Birgitte, using the silver arrow she was torn out of Tel’aran’rhiod with, that slew the gholam. Its only weakness seemed to be silver–that silver arrow, through the heart, should have been the tool by which the gholam was slain. That Sammael was never brought back to life by the Dark One. His death was so vaguely written, he couldn’t have used the true power to escape? Hell, even reversing the flows of a gateway would mean Rand didn’t feel him escape too. By far, the weakest death of any Forsaken.
Phew! Sorry, again I ramble my way to a massive post. I ask your forgiveness, but being concise is not one of my talents, sadly.
Totally agree on Dumai’s Wells being on the best-worst rather than best. My husband has always talked of it as one of the awesome book endings and I think it was Rand going to a pretty dark place. Of course as others have pointed out he was tortured into what he became, and I agree that Rand in the Box is a best-worst as well.
Egwene’s death…I got chills again just reading your recap. I always thought that was an amazing moment (bad she had to die, but that was the most awesome way to die)!
Tam not getting to know that Rand is still alive at the end is one of my worst moments, and what I disliked most about the ending. I also could have done with a little (a lot) more explanation about Rand and Moridin switching bodies because I still don’t understand how that worked. Maybe I never read that part of your re-read, Leigh!
#3 – I remember reading this chapter in the beta and I think I was the first to get to it. After getting over my shock, I emailed the others warning them to be sitting down in a quiet place when they read it.
So glad Egwene made it to number one. I’d have been so upset and just going “wrong wrong wrong” if she hadn’t been! It made me cry. Egwene would have been such an amazing Amyrlin, more so than she already was, so her death felt like an incredible loss to the future. Everything else was spot on too~
@47
Are you saying that Sarkarnen was one of the Nine Rods of Dominion? Because they were more rulers or diplomats in the AOL.
I agree that Rand stuck in the box was far more traumatic for me than the battle that came after. And Rhuarc’s death has always been the one that bugged me the most. Such a strong man, and such a waste.
@51 – @47 is wrong on the “Rod of Dominion.” The powerful male sa’angreal was put in specifically by Brandon to answer the question of the mysterious quote by Lanfear on seeing Calllandor in the Stone, “There is only one greater that I know of that a man can use.”
No matter what anyone says, Shaidar Haran killed Asmodean. Come on, Asmodean opens a closet looking for something to stink, full of shadows, and it is Graendal that is just hanging out? No, it is Shaidar Haran. Think about it.
Damn, even with preview comment I missed drink being stink
OMG – You said Egwene’s death and I started tearing up immediately. My first read had me gut-wrenching sobbing. Which surprised me and made me laugh at myself for sobbing over a character. As you said, to much time and emotional investment. My 2nd, 3rd, etc. rereads haven’t faired much better. Thanks for the memory. I think. Ooh Ooh Girl!
Not the biggest moment or anything, but finding out that all the young Aiel male channellers who went off to fight the Dark One before they went mad ended up becoming psychotic filed-teeth killers for the Dark. That was an awful (brilliant) moment.
I loved/hated Egwene’s death, but the one that kicked me in the guts was Siuan’s. It felt so meaningless in light of all she fought for and lost. But I guess that was part of the point.
No one’s mentioned the whole bit where we finally see / experience the process of forcibly turning people to the Shadow with 13 Myrddraal and 13 channellers. THAT is nightmare fuel to me – to have all goodness ripped out of you and replaced with darkness? The near instantaneous change in personality. Disturbing as all hell. But really glad we got to see it. Also by extension as was just mentioned the male Aiel channellers were frightening.
I also had a gasping fury/grief moment when Moiraine sacrificed herself to stop Lanfear, and we see that she knew it was coming (that bit when she calls out to Rand in Rhuidean after he uses balefire and humbles herself just so he will listen to her because she knows she won’t be around for long, sank me the second time reading it, knowing what was coming). That whole “final” arc for her rocketed her to one of my top characters so that when suspicions were confirmed and Thom finally lets Mat read her letter I was beside myself at the prospect of her coming back. That whole rescue sequence was amazing and nerve wracking too. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn are creepy as hell.
It is great to see Lee Butler writing again on the Wheel of Time. I was gutted when the redux re-read came to such an abrupt and unexpected end, but thse recent pieces partly make up for it and I look forward to seeing what other WOT-related lists she comes up with.
@53 That is an interesting snippet of information, but surely Lanfear was referring to the Choedan Kal (or at least the one attuned to saidin)? We know she was well aware of its existence as she did try to tempt Rand with it.
I hope Brandon Sanderson’s reading of the series wasn’t really so cursory that he missed this.
Gadget@41:
Except, we’re not talking about Gawyn making any decisions on Elayne’s behalf. He had to make a decision whom to back during the tower coop for himself, or risk being used as a pawn, as he had every reason to assume his sister was being used. And as far as he knew, his mother was at odds with Siuan Sanche over Elayne, and had been demanding Elayne’s return, unanswered, by the Amyrlin Seat. I doubt he was supposed to obey his sister over his mother until Elayne ascended the Throne.
You say Gawyn’s “dismissive” attitude that an Accepted couldn’t possibly know enough to make an informed decision was grating? Both Siuan Sanche’s and Elayne’s complete dismissal of Gawyn led directly to him making an uninformed decision. To say he didn’t have to make any decision is ludicrous. The entire tower was fighting. He made the best decision he could with the information he had. He certainly didn’t make that choice for Elayne. He made it for himself, and as a leader among his peers in the Tower. Calling it a stupid decision is what I’ve always objected to. His decision makes perfect sense given the information he had, and the fact that his mother was currently threatening war against the White Tower. He didn’t know about Rahvin. He essentially viewed himself and Elayne as Siuan Sanche’s hostage against his mother’s good behavior.
I can’t find this anywhere, but I loved the Graendal fight with Avienda. Her collection of my favorite tertiary channelers and Rhuarc.
Then seeing Avi do the thing that creates her amazing, always channeling children. I came away feeling like her unweaving and using is as a weapon reflected back the compulsion, and the effect on her was that instead of burning out her, or the children, it did the opposite and her kids are forced to always be touching the source. New and crazy effect that could never be predicted or reproduced.
Hello to Auntie Leigh and all the old-timers. Always nice to recall my fond memories of the old re-read.
Sharan army crushing the Aes Sedai with their arrival with Demandred. That was hard to stomach. Also as mentioned by @24 but not only Moraine’s death but more than that her slow dying away rotting away helplessly for so long.
All the above withou Dumai’s Well, I agree that it was only horrific as number one worst moment of abuse to Rand, I tend think that it was as much tough as Egwaine’s abducting by the Seanchen, but they at least didn’t hate her and didn’t try to demean her just for pleasure, unlike Rand who got treated that way out of hatred. @28 + @24 , you have my vote.
Also add to the list Gawyn’s death. Not that I ever felt that much for Gawyn, but his thoughts in the end, that he never achieved anything great, that even in his deathbed he was dissapointed in himself is so so so hard. I think even if it is not the death that was most important to us or the story, it defenitaly is the most miserable one. Hands down.
@44 – Wow I never thought of Egwaine that way- yes, the old blood returned, as this would be the sole example of that. But Demandred almost turned against the dark in the end? you sure?
@46 – YES, you’re right. It hurts me not knowing if he stayed alone or not. Also the last sentence, “and like the wind he was gone”… THAT LEFT ME ALL ALONE!!!!
@47 – “That Mat got so butchered by Sanderson” – How come? I get to hear it alot and I don’t get it. Someone explain please
@48 – Tam not getting to know that Rand is still alive at the end is one of my worst moments, and what I disliked most about the ending – Oh yes he did deserve so much more, he believed in him til the end, and he was left old and alone. No wife, no Rand… That’s nearly cruel.
@58 – ” Siuan’s. It felt so meaningless in light of all she fought for and lost” – Oh yes. She lost everything, really fought hard to make something and then just *poof*, gone
I’ve got to say, I did find it fitting that of the original group of Emond’s Fielders, Egwene was the only one to die. Going back to the very beginning, she was the only one who set out looking for “adventure.” The rest just wanted to do what they had to and then go back home.
For me one of the worst-best moments was Dena death.
She was introduced as a bright, cheerful character, and the girl who could really make Thom happy, and then he was killed just like that, simply to generate some drama, for no reason at all. She was simply extinguished like it was nothing, grinded by the Wheel of Time. I think in a way this is more sad than Egwene death or other major events, because of how empty it was.