Happy New Year, people of Tor.com!
And a very happy new year it is, this 2013, for not only have the Mayans not killed us all calendarially, but it is a new year in which for many of us, at Tor Books and in fandom alike, a completely different and much more awesome end of an era has been achieved: today is the official publication date of the final novel of the Wheel of Time series, A Memory of Light.
Allow me to say that again: the Wheel of Time series, at long last, is complete.
I would like y’all to just gaze upon that sentence a moment, because if it doesn’t awe you even just a little bit then you have really not been paying attention to this not-so-little corner of the art world. I know it awes the hell out of me.
It took almost a quarter of a century, two authors, and the combined effort, care and dedication of literally hundreds of people to make it happen, but make it happen they did, and now we the fans get to reap the happy result. And I certainly hope that everyone who has ever been at any point even remotely involved in the process of bringing this baby home takes a moment today to look at themselves and say damn, I am awesome.
Because you totally, totally are.
And as promised lo these four weeks ago (and/or years ago, depending on how you look at it), please find attached my second and totally spoiler-filled review of A Memory of Light, and also incidentally a place on Tor.com where you may discuss the final novel to your heart’s content.
And at the risk of repeating myself, Be Ye Warned: that means there are COLOSSAL, ELEPHANTINE, BOOK-ANNIHILATING SPOILERS for A Memory of Light below the cut.
Therefore, I VERY VERY STRONGLY suggest that you read the novel first before reading this review, because if you don’t it will not only ruin nearly all of the biggest moments of the book for you, but it will simultaneously also manage to probably make practically zero sense otherwise, because I am writing it with the assumption that you, the reader, have read it. Read AMoL, I mean, not the review. You know what I mean!
Seriously, people, just read the book first. I ain’t going nowhere, and neither is this post. It’ll be waiting for you on the other side, promise.
Right? Right! Then click on, brave ones, for my very last new WOT novel spoiler review! Whoo!
(Sigh.)
A Memory of Light, the final book of the Wheel of Time is, regardless of any other considerations, a simply massive book. And I mean that in every way possible, not just in terms of the actual physical weight of the thing. There is nothing small about this novel—not in events, not in emotions, not in theme or plot or characters, not in anything. It is just—freakin’—big.
It is so big, in fact, that it is difficult to hold it all, and again I don’t just mean physically. Already a lot of the smaller details—and some not so small—have slipped out of focus for me, subsumed in the hugeness of everything else that occurred. It will certainly require more than one reading to fully encompass everything that happened in it. (Fortunately I’m slated to do just that, eh?)
Again I am impressed anew at Brandon Sanderson’s sheer courage at taking on such a daunting task. Actually, scratch that word. I thought the task was daunting after TGS and TOM; having read this, “daunting” doesn’t remotely cover it, any more than it adequately covers “dancing a quadrille across hot coals in a snake pit while being threatened by bears and reciting the Gettysburg Address.” You know, like you do.
And it is also this enormous heft of the book (and breadth, and scope, and look this thing is positively brobdingnagian, okay?) that has made it so difficult for me to put together anything coherent and yet reasonably concise to say about it. I mean, where do I even start?
And on reflection, as counterintuitive as it might seem, I think in this case the best place to begin might actually be at the end.
Because that is, after all, the big prize we’ve all been waiting for: the Big Ass Ending to (we’ve been hoping) end all Big Ass Endings. For all its complexity and complications and Moments of Awesome (and Moments of Really Not Awesome) and cast of thousands and so forth, the question this book really needed to answer was simple: does the resolution of the story measure up to the vast buildup (by both design and circumstance) leading up to it? What we want to know is, does the Chosen One’s confrontation with his destined opponent—Evil made manifest—does that final battle, ultimately, work?
And not to put too fine a point on it, I think that it did.
I think that the necessary and vital central conflict that absolutely had to be resolved in this novel—the conflict between Rand and the Dark One—happened pretty much exactly the way it had to happen. It seemed to me to be a completely inevitable progression, even as I was surprised by some of how that progression, er, progressed.
I’m not sure that entirely makes sense, to say that it went precisely as I thought it had to, in the same breath as saying it didn’t actually go how I thought it would, but, well, I’m not sure I can do much better than that, because that’s how I feel about it. I think, though, that in the end there are honestly only a fairly limited number of ways a story like this can end, and so even if the specifics of the ending of this particular version of this story were not necessarily what I expected, the ultimate result was. So in this way it was both surprising, and not surprising at all.
And I think, for the kind of story that this has always been, that that is as it should be. And more importantly, as a reader of this kind of story in general and of this story in particular, I think that that is satisfying.
Which, if you think about it, is probably the most important criteria to consider in any case.
I do not think the ending was perfect, mind you. I don’t think the novel as a whole was perfect either. I think that in some of the details, the… hm, choreography of its progression, the symmetry of how the pieces came together, it sometimes veered off the mark.
For example, to pick out one specific thing that bothered me, I think the deployment of Mat and Perrin in the final showdown was—uneven, especially in Mat’s case. It seemed like Perrin had far more to do than Mat did, and the thing that should have been Mat’s central conflict in the final battle (his connection/addiction to the ruby dagger and/or the evil of Shadar Logoth) was not sufficiently built up enough beforehand for his defeat of Fain to have anywhere near the impact that Perrin’s defeat of Slayer did. It’s not that it didn’t work, but it felt unbalanced. (You’ll notice, however, that I’m not including anything in this complaint about Rand’s role in the final showdown.)
Beyond that, I feel that while all of the broad strokes of the story (and most of the smaller ones) hit the target, in terms of emotional resolution and catharsis, there were definitely some grace notes that were missed, particularly in the denouement. There were a few things I had been very much looking forward to happening that did not end up happening, particularly in terms of character interaction, and there’s no point in lying and saying that that didn’t disappoint me a little.
Without disregarding the logistical difficulties involved, for example, I was really rather upset that we never actually got one of the biggest things I had been looking forward to, which was Rand, Mat and Perrin all in the same room at the same time—something I had been waiting for since the end of Book 3, and now apparently will never get to see. Rand was with both of the other two at separate times in AMoL, and that was great and all, but I wanted to see them all together, dammit. Similarly, I am disappointed that as far as I recall, we never got to see all the Supergirls together at once either, even if you leave Min and Aviendha out of that category. I didn’t even really want or need either group to do anything together; I just wanted them to have a moment to just look at each other and be like, wow. You know?
(I had had lesser hopes of perhaps seeing not just the Superboys or just the Supergirls, but all the original Two Rivers contingent, the ones who started it all—Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, Lan, and Moiraine—together in a room before the end, and I really didn’t get that. But that’s perhaps more understandable.)
And while I certainly recognize that there just wasn’t room to give every character the sendoff they each deserved, I also can’t help being a little let down by the way we said “goodbye,” so to speak, to some of Our Heroes. Or rather, by the way we sometimes kind of didn’t. I’m not saying the book should have had a curtain call or anything, but, well.
That said, the way we said goodbye to Rand, specifically, was just about perfect. If the end scene that Jordan was said to have written forever ago was the actual last scene in the book, where Rand rides away, anonymously whole (as opposed to the scene where he defeats the Dark One, which I think is what a lot of people had been assuming), then I say it was more than worth waiting for. It wasn’t a happy ending, as such, but in my opinion the bittersweet tang of it was better than any deliriously (and unrealistically) happy ending we could have gotten.
It was lovely, actually, in a sad, hopeful, quiet, heart-squeezy kind of way. And, I guess, as long as that ending works, all the others are… of less importance, as far as making the overall story work goes.
Like I said, flawless? No. Pretty damn stupendously awesome anyway? Yup.
Right, and what I’ve said above (at length) is not even touching on everything else there is to talk about re: what happened in this book. The battles ALONE could take up a whole post by themselves, much less everything else. Suffice it to say there is no way in bloody hell I’m going to even attempt to get to everything in AMoL that needs discussing in this review, because that’s why God (or Tor.com) made Re-reads, and rest assured that we will be getting to all of it, in probably horrifically exhausting detail, in the months to come.
However, I do believe I owe y’all at least a few specifics, in the form of explanations of my hilariously vague teaser comments from the non-spoiler review, so without further ado, here they be!
“A familiarity,” indeed. Very funny, Team Jordan.
Well, this one was in the Prologue, so many of you saw it already:
[Demandred] met each of their eyes in turn, then finally those of M’Hael. There seemed to be a familiarity to them. The two had met before.
I’m sure I’m not the only one who snorted at this, since it was the great similarity between the way Demandred and Taim were both described, especially in terms of mannerisms and personality, that helped kept the Taimandred theory alive until Jordan point-blank debunked it—and even then some fans wouldn’t let it go. “Familiarity” may not exactly equal “similarity,” true, but c’mon, this was totally a shoutout to that whole brouhaha.
Geez, no consent issues here. I am not sure a proportional response is always actually proportional, you guys! What the hell?
Seriously, what the hell, Pevara and Androl. “Oh, you’re going to bond me without asking? Well I’m gonna do it right back!” It was sort of funny, like the metaphysical equivalent of a slapfight, but it was also kind of very not cool at the same time, especially when it becomes clear that while Pevara can release the Warder bond, Androl evidently can’t (or at least doesn’t know how to) do the same with the “wife” version of it. So, yeah, consent issues like whoa.
Dammit, dammit, no, don’t agree, don’t agree to – DAMMIT. Well, there goes the neighborhood. You MORON. (Maybe?)
Yeah, well. The treaty Rand actually came to with Tuon was better than the one Aviendha saw in the Way-Forward Ter’Angreal, maybe, but damn did the Three-Fifths Compromise damane clause of it make me grind my teeth. Basically it guarantees that at some point Rand’s hundred-year peace will be challenged, and probably by the Aiel, and rightfully so if you ask me.
That’s part of the story we’ll never see, of course, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be annoyed by it anyway. Because I am special like that.
I have definitely been on the Internet too long, because everything I’m coming up with to comment on/wonder about re: this is SO not fit for polite company. Y’all would be SCANDALIZED. …Wait, what am I talking about, most of you have been on the Internet just as long, you’re just as bad. Never mind.
This is basically me being pervy and wondering if Aviendha, Min and Elayne will ever decide that maybe they don’t have to take turns with Rand. If You Know What I Mean, And I Think You Do.
…Yep, definitely going to the special hell.
Hah, so sure of that theory, were you? Well, so were a lot of people. So much for that!
I laughed out loud when Rand was all irritated that Roedran turned out not to be Demandred, especially at his “Where are you?” complaint after. If that’s not a fan shoutout I don’t know what is. Ha, awesome.
His pocket? Seriously?
No, seriously, Rand. Keeping the by-now-extremely-fragile seals that are the only thing holding Ultimate Evil at bay in a COAT POCKET, I can’t even. Like, not even wrapped in something! WTF?
And yeah, I know that unlike me, Rand is all deadly graceful and stuff and probably doesn’t regularly accidentally hipcheck tables or desks (or, er, doorways), but dude.
And here would be where I get choked up for the first time. I suspect it will not be the last.
This would be when Lan makes what he thinks is his final hopeless charge against the Trollocs. Al Chalidholara Malkier (for my sweet land Malkier), damn. I’m getting choked up again writing about it, even knowing now that he gets a reprieve!
DAMN STRAIGHT, MAN. Thank you.
[Lan:] “This war is everything or nothing. If I could round up each woman in the Borderlands and put a sword in her hands, I would. For now, I’ll settle for not doing something stupid— like forbidding some trained and passionate soldiers from fighting. If you, however, decide not to exercise that prudence, you are free to tell them what you think. I promise to give you a good burial once they let me take your head down off the pole.”
*beams* Lan is my favorite.
…Yup, here’s Choked Up Incident #2.
This would be Rand’s conversation with Elayne about his unborn children, and his thought that he would never get to meet them. Because, yeah.
Huh. It just keeps coming back to truth, doesn’t it.
That old recurring theme of WOT, that total honesty is the only thing that works. Of course, it’s not every day you’re in circumstances where you can literally lay your heart out for someone to see, like Rand did for Lanfear. Even with his Zen thing, I’m still rather shocked that he did it.
Wow, I totally forgot that ______ didn’t actually know that. And yes, dude, your timing sucks balls. Sheesh.
Bornhald’s revelation to Perrin that it was Fain who’d killed his family and not Trollocs was not only badly-timed, but for a minute there I thought it was going to ruin everything. Because let’s just say, if it had been me, and the guy in front of me had just inadvertently confessed that he stood by and watched while someone slaughtered all my loved ones, I don’t know that he would have walked away from that conversation. At least not with all his teeth.
And here’s Choked Up Incident #3, and over a sparring session!
This would be, of course, Rand’s sparring session with Tam. It may not have seemed like a big deal in the grand scheme of things, Rand losing his hand, but this was a strong reminder that uh, actually, losing a hand is a HUGE deal, especially to someone who so strongly depended upon its use. I mean, not that everyone doesn’t strongly depend on their hand(s), but it’s even more for swordfighters, yo.
And more importantly it was something that Rand had never had a chance to really come to terms with, that loss. It was just so appropriate that it would be Tam, who gave him his first sword and taught him the most important part of wielding it (the flame and the void, natch), should be the one to address that oversight.
God, they are so WEIRD. I totally don’t know how to feel about this relationship. But then, apparently neither do they, so that’s… all right? I guess?
Mat and Tuon, who else? “I totally don’t love you, and even if I did I wouldn’t admit it. Now, let’s have public sex in a garden!” WHAT. Seriously, so bizarre.
Holy crap, THROW IT AWAY RIGHT NOW ARE YOU CRAZY. …Wait, stupid question.
I’m not sure if I was supposed to have figured out before Rand’s conversation with Moiraine that Callandor’s second flaw was that it allows unrestricted channeling of the True Power as well as the One Power, but if I was, well, I didn’t. Of course I know now how that turns out, but when I first read this revelation I was duly appalled, because holy crap.
*blink* *blink* Well, I’ll be damned. Mentioned twice, even! I’m not sure if that’s a sop to shut me up or a nod that I was right, or both, but I don’t care, because awesome. The most likely option, of course, is that it didn’t have a damn thing to do with me at all, and ultimately it is totally irrelevant anyway, but I don’t care, because thank you. I am Pleased.
Open and unambiguous mentions of male characters who are gay, CAN I GET A WITNESS. That is all.
AHAHAHA. Just in case there were any trolls out there still insisting on it, eh?
[Rand:] “Not to tell you your own family history, but Elayne is not related to me.”
In WOT fandom, one of the more annoying and omnipresent varieties of troll were the ones whose unrelenting mantra was that Rand and Elayne were committing incest. (Actually I’m thinking of one troll in particular, way back in the mists of Internet Time, but I’m sure he/she was not the only one.) I have no idea whether this comment is actually a shoutout to that particular tired dead horse, but it amused me anyway. The fact that he said it to Gawyn was just icing on the cake. Ha ha ha.
God, FINALLY. Also: whoever had that development in the betting pool is gonna make a mint, yo. It wasn’t me, but that’s probably because I didn’t bother to guess.
Well, once you’ve actually read the book this one is probably pretty obvious. I was initially prepared to be rather skeptical of keeping Demandred out of the action until the last minute, but (a) it’s a fair cop to suppose seducing an entire continent to the Dark Side is a rather long-term project, yo, and (b) I think it ended up working quite well that he wound up being the last major boss to beat before the end game, so to speak. It wouldn’t have done so well if the last boss had been Moridin, as I (and others, I’m sure) had long assumed, but it turns out Moridin’s role was… a little different.
Hey, don’t you know you’ll go blind if you do that? Heh heh.
Okay, I am twelve, whatever. But seriously, people, stop looking directly at the extremely symbolic solar eclipse, you will burn your retinas. Sheesh.
Uh. Is that who I think it is? Because whooooa.
Yeah, that was totally who I thought it was. And it kind of puts paid to the debate over whether it had really been the Creator talking to Rand in TEOTW, too. At least as far as I am concerned.
What? Are you kidding me? That is the worst name EVER! Ugh! I protest! I stomp my foot in your general terrible-nomenclaturing direction! Gah!
Seriously, Knotai? Who likes this name? Not I!
*runs*
Learned a new word: abatis. Also, ouch.
Medieval battle tactics are seriously ouchy to read about—even when they’re being used against Trollocs.
…And yeah. I don’t know why I put this one in here, actually, because ooh, guys, spoiler: BAZILLIONS OF TROLLOCS DIE IN THE COURSE OF THIS BOOK. Please attempt to contain your shock.
Well, that wasn’t tense or anything. Also: PREACH IT, SISTER.
When Egwene meets with Tuon and dares her to put on the a’dam I was like, daaaamn. And also, SERIOUSLY, THANK YOU. Even though of course Tuon has a rationalization in place to justify why sul’dam should not be collared. Of course she does. So convenient. God, I hate hypocrisy.
WHAAAAAT. That seriously can’t be right. …Can it? [later] Well, okay, I was right that it wasn’t right, go me, but that sucks almost as badly! Gah!
The subtle subversion of the Great Captains was really nicely done, and the way it provided the segue into Mat taking over the armies completely worked very well, I thought. Which isn’t to say it didn’t deeply suck for Bashere et al, of course (she understates, blandly).
This would be one of those points in a story where there is really only one applicable phrase, and that phrase is oh shit.
Well, there were a bunch of these points, of course, but the one I was specifically referring to here is when Faile’s party ends up tossed into the Blight. Because, yeah.
Hey, no, that is NOT COOL. Whhhhyyy do you suck so much, seriously?
No, really, Tuon is just fired. You can’t just—just—collect people, like stamps, because you think they are neato! Well, I mean, if you are a totalitarian dictator-type Empress you can, evidently, but that doesn’t make you suck less for doing it! Give Min back, woman!
Ah, damn. Well, one prophecy fulfilled.
Tenobia’s death. *shrug* Pretty much saw that one coming a mile away.
Ha ha ha, really? That is hilarious. I sort of feel like it is cheating. Actually there is no “sort of” about it, it is totally cheating, but it’s also kind of awesome in its blatant cheatiness. Or something. I am Amused.
Convenient proximity-dependent time dilation for the win! I mean, it also sort of makes actual sense, that the Bore would function as a sort of black hole/event horizon, warping time and such so that the closer you are, the slower time passes, but don’t think I missed how well it functioned as a forced pacing device for the divergent storylines, either. Heh.
*wide eyes* Now that would be a thing to see. Daaaaamn.
I have three words for you: Lava fire hose. Except GINORMOUS. Holy shit.
Well, there’s a finally dropped shoe that came out of bloody nowhere. I have no idea whether to be annoyed or pleased. [later] Oh. Well, that’s okay then. Good for you!
Alanna, of course. Well, she was such a Chekhov’s Gun the entire time since she bonded Rand back in LOC or whenever, I suppose it would have been even more annoying had she never been fired. So to speak. And, you know, kudos to her for doing the only thing she could to fix it when it came down to it—even though she SHOULD have done it ages earlier. But better late than never, I suppose.
Holy Law of Conservation of Characters, Batman! When was the last time we saw ________, TGH? Heh.
Urien, I think our first on-screen Aiel! Hi! Not to mention the unnamed farmer Mat notices in the same scene, who is almost certainly Hyam Kinch, the guy who gave Mat and Rand a ride (and scarves) back in TEOTW.
(Although, on checking I find that we’ve actually seen Urien since TGH, in LOC, but whatever.)
ZOMG they are adorable. That is probably disturbing. It should be disturbing! Why isn’t this disturbing? STOP BEING SO CUTE DAMMIT YOU’RE CONFUSING ME
Androl and Pevara, natch. Because two people blending their brains together like a damn milkshake should not be this endearing, dammit. And yet!
Yeah, well, dude, what did you expect? That wasn’t bringing a knife to a gun fight; that was bringing a knife to a Global Thermonuclear Warfare fight. Sheesh. Also: Damn. That sucks.
Gawyn vs. Demandred. Because, dammit, you idiot. Though in light of what happens later, “that sucks” is… an understatement.
Well. That… that sucked more. Like, a lot. Wow.
Siuan! No! And jeez, she didn’t even get a death scene. Wow.
And that sucked too. Clearly I have come to the portion where things suck, a lot.
This being the “later” from above. Sadness. Gawyn was more or less a fool to the end, but that didn’t mean I wanted him to die.
Oh, yeah, that’s going to go well. [later] …Aaand it really, really didn’t. Toldja.
There’s a whole essay to be written on the hypothetical world-creating contest slash philosophical debate between Rand and the Dark One which I will undoubtedly be getting to eventually, but for now let’s just say it wasn’t exactly a hard call to predict that Rand’s attempt to create an evil-free version of the universe was going to go… poorly.
That is not how I expected that prophecy to be fulfilled. Awesome.
Leilwin as Egwene’s replacement Warder, whoa. Nice.
Well, jeez. Things can stop sucking anytime now! [later] Oh. Never mind. Sort of.
Oh, Trakand boys, how many *headdesks* have you given me, let me count the dents. At least Galad survives, though I somewhat shamefully confess I was dismayed that he gets disfigured in the process. Hey, sometimes I’m shallow, apparently.
AHAHAHA. It’s like Alias, except without the blue rubber dresses. And less government oversight. And with, you know, magic. Okay, so it’s not really anything like Alias, but it was damn funny anyway.
Androl is seriously my favorite Johnny-come-lately character in WOT ever. He already was that, what with the lava thing and the rescuing Logain thing, but the fact that he basically pulled a con job on Taim in the middle of all this madness completely cracked me up. (Which is why this teaser comment also sucks, because White Collar was what I should have referenced instead of Alias, and didn’t. Oh well.)
Okay, it is RIDICULOUS that I just had Choked Up Incident #4 over this, but – but – NOOOOOO. Not fair! The sads, I have all of them right now.
Bela! No! Really, Bela? Did we HAVE to kill Bela, Team Jordan? Did we? WHY SO MEAN, WHY.
…And so this wasn’t Choked Up Incident #5, so much as it was straight-up actual crying. Dammit. Dammit.
I mean, shit, all in one page—Bashere and Karldin and Hurin and Enaila and ow, make it stop. Which is basically what Rand says a second later, watching them all die, and I don’t blame him. Ow, my heart.
Wow, that was perfect. That was perfect.
Lan. Fucking Lan, you guys. He is the Lannest Lan that ever Lanned, and it is glorious, and I can’t even handle it. With Demandred, and the sheathing the sword, that he taught Rand all the way back at the beginning, and, and. *flaps hands uselessly*
You’re just going to have to imagine me flailing at this point, because I have no idea how to textually encompass my reaction to this revelation. Or to this entire scene, really, but especially that bit. I would almost have to *headdesk* at it, except for how diabolically clever it was. How can something be so awesome and piss me off so much in the same breath? Holy shit!
I’m going to have to just say “Olver and the Horn” right here, and leave it at that, because this entire scene is a pile of absolutely amazing crazy that will have to be dealt with (and flailed at) in detail at a later point, because OMG what is this I can’t even.
NO WAY. OMG YAY. Sorry, must clap like a seal for a moment, brb. Also, how did I not see that coming? My hindsight, she is so 20/20!
JAIN MOTHERFUCKING FARSTRIDER, HERO OF THE HORN, THANK YOU. And he saves Olver! Because of course he does. So, so awesome, you guys.
Oh, yeah. I was wondering when they would show up. Not that I’m particularly thrilled that they’re here, of course.
Remember that giant pack of Darkhounds we saw back in COT and then never again? Yeah.
*falls over laughing* Oh my God, that is hilarious. And somewhere a certain someone is saying SO THERE, IT WAS RELEVANT, WASN’T IT. Touché, Team Jordan. Touché.
Hinderstap and its Amazing Regenerating Berserker Army, I salute thee. HAHAHAHA.
Holy crap, it’s like Jack-in-the-Box! Except with lots and lots of death! Awesome!
I think several people actually guessed this one. Which probably isn’t that surprising, as it’s perfectly obvious that the combination of Traveling and cannon makes for just about the perfect ambush combo. Pop in, BANG, pop out. Sweet.
WELP, WE ALL KNEW THIS WAS COMING. But fortunately not in the way we were – expecting? Sort of? …And that does divide up nicely this way, doesn’t it. Well done.
Well, I’m not sure how I feel about calling the combo of Fain/Mordeth/Mashadar “Shaisam” (sounds a little too Marvel-ous, ba dum dum), but I am too pleased that there was no finger-biting or gold rings or jumping into volcanoes involved in his appearance to quibble about it too much. As for my “dividing up nicely” comment… well, I actually had to take that back, on reflection. See my comments on Mat and Perrin’s roles in the ending above.
And then:
Oh.
Right, walking away for a moment.
Maybe several moments.
Oh, Egwene. Oh, my Ooh Ooh Girl. I just.
There’s… nothing else to say. Not yet. I will do her justice later. Maybe by then I’ll actually be able to write about her without tearing up. Maybe.
I will do all of it justice later, I hope. But for now, I think this is a pretty good place for the rest of you to start, until the Re-read gets back underway (the when of which being Soon To Be Determined).
Until then, I hope that you have enjoyed your last first visit to Randland at least as much as I did, O my Peeps. But either way, I invite you to pull up a comment box and tell us about it, because this is a book and a series and a time to be savored and debated and shared, and times like that do not come along every day. As we are told by a couple of very wise and talented guys:
There are no endings, and never will be endings, to the turning of the Wheel of Time.
But it was an ending.
And what an ending it was.
Wow. Thanks Leigh … And Team Jordan
Thanks, Leigh! I’m agreeing with the “it was totally emotionally draining” part. That was a lot to get through, and not just because of the number of words.
I’m not sure if anything (even written by Jordan himself) would have entirely satisfied me. This series has been such a huge chunk of my life, with so much invested, how do you wrap it up? Sanderson and Team Jordan have done a mighty job, and it was a great read. I still feel somewhat empty though. Not sure if it’s because of what wasn’t in the books (those “everyone together” character moments, more clarity on how things ended) or if it’s a general emptyness of it all being over.
I have a bunch of nitpicks (well, some pretty big objections) which have been raised on DM, but will pull those out later during the re-read.
One thing I agree on – Egwene. That really, really hurt. More so than anything else in the book, or the series. Her end kind of took the gloss off everything, even what everyone else achieved. Maybe I’m just too attached to her, after all, the world was saved. But still.
Leigh, the incest troll from rasfw-rj you’re remembering went under the user name Student, and I think he was from Australia. He was literally my first contact with internet trolling, in like 1997. Good memories.
When a friend of mine asked me if all the loose ends were tied up, I told him the only one I could think of that wasn’t was finding out who Nakomi was. If that’s the biggest dangling thread in your four million plus word series, you’ve done a good job.
That said, one MAJOR beef with TOR (or whoever did the typesetting): right after Egwene dies, the POV shifts to Rand, and his first line is “Egwene was dead” or something to that effect. This POV shift happened at the very bottom of the right hand page – so of course, when I turned the page, my attention was drawn to that single, set off line, with the blank space above it, because I’d just been read in that physical spot two pages earlier when I flipped the page. Thus, I got the “Egwene is dead” line without the two pages of Egwene POV leading up to, which I hadn’t had a chance to read yet. Major typesetting foul, guys.
Heh.
The series ended for me somewhere in book 3 when I got bored. This was some time in 1992. And I’ve thanked my luck ever since for having dodged that collective giant nightmarish waiting game of a series ending.
I think now that its all done it’ll be a nice read some year.
Yay for complete series!
Leigh my only regret to meeting you tonight for the first time is that Mike who introduced me to the series (around book 5) didn’t get to meet you before Mr. Rigney had moved on. The only reason that he finished the series with Sanderson’s followthrough is that I told him it was worth it. Your dedication to this story is inspirational. Kudos!
This can’t happen, I mean, Gawyn, DEAD, he was like my favorite character, next to Mat anyway. Mat better not die or I’m going to be real mad, guys. Thanks anyway Leigh, Team Jordan.
I think on this point only I can speak for everyone who has ever read your Re-Read:
You Rock!
Thank you!
Hope to meet you at one of these shindigs, one of these days.
Peace and love!
Z
Congratulations! I’m so happy for you TWOT fans.
What a long strange trip it’s been. Cheers.
Awesome job Leigh…..I can’t read this yet , but imma go out on a limb. Thanks for all your efforts!
I got the audible book now!!!!
Just downloading the audio book. Yahoooo~~~~
Awesome review.
Concerning Rand’s treaty and the damane question. If you look at all the books, there are these fragments of ideas that scream out for further books. Not of the series, rather, short stories or separate side stories. Maybe RJ had a half formed idea for these short and/or side stories and put these idea fragments into the series to provide anchors for these further stories to be developed. For example, how much was made of the actual ‘Towers of Midnight’ – even though there was a book with that title? Yet we know what the towers were supposed to be used for. That purpose could easily have had some relationship to the injustice done to damane….etc etc. That is just an example of a fragment in one book perhaps being able to be combined with a fragment in another book, btw, rather than a prediction. Similarly, we have some of the story from Aviendha’s second trip to Rhuidean, but fragmentary in this book – possibly also linked to how the treaty pans out? And what about Shara itself?
Given that RJ is no longer with us, we will probably never know now what these fragments mean. (There are plenty of other fragments in other books – eg was the Deathwatch Guard originally the Band of the Red Hand? ).
Or are we going to see a few of these short/side stories come out in the years ahead? I sort of hope so
Halfway through…
Rand: Good thing I went back to Dumai Wells and happened to find the fat man before I did that awesome thing at Maradon in the LAST BOOK!
Took me right out of the book. had to put the thing down for the rest of the night and I got the thing three days early
Knotai = perfect new Seanchan name for Mat.
Tuon : Did you do that thing?
Mat: (incredulous) Knot-ai…?
BTW Thanks so much Leigh. Can’t wait for the re-read.
damnit! i ordered thru amazon and do not expect to have my copy until the 30th. didn’t know my local bookstore took it and have about 20 copies. got the 17th! omg omg omg
don’t mind having 2 copies! im psyched!
Emotionally draining.. Yeah. That about sums it up! It’s 7 A.m. and I haven’t slept since my copy showed up yesterday.
I’m pretty numb at this point. I knew I would be. I’ve been following this series since 1997, not as long as some, but I turn 30 this year and this series has been with me my entire adult life.
I’m rambling at this point. Ultimately I am at a loss for words, and almost unimaginably sad that this series is over. No other series has held a candle to what this one has made me feel…
wow!
This is exactly how I sound when talking about the book. OMG!!! It’s AMAAAAZING! I wouldn’t expect the review to be written any differently.
I read the spoiler free version a while and came back for the spoiler version today having finished the book last night.
i can’t get it out of my head that it is all finsihed.
agree with a lot of what you said – Olver, Egwene and Lan. Oh yes Lan. And I too will be going to a special kind of hell wondering if Avi, Elayne and Min will rand Rand together.
About one of Chekhov’s many munitions on display: Do we ever get to see the 6 and 66 link in action? Jordan set it up so that the most
channelers possible in a link was also the number of the beast in
christian lore. And he calls the hero of the story the “dragon”. I’ve been
waiting for 13 books to see if anyone ever puts together a maximized
circle of magic in the final scene(s). I’m still on the fence about buying
the book, since my favorite character, Mat, seems to have died with
Jordan. So, any speed readers out there, please let me know about this
missing plot device. Does it make an appearance? Would like to know
because I think it would be worth it just for this.
I have not read Leigh’s review nor any comments as yet…book not in hand as my local store does not open til 9 am EST.
I hope everyone able to is enjoying this last book (but not last story…something to look forward to in May!!!) and I look forward to hopefully reading the review and reviewing/adding to comments as soon as possible.
Can I just post that not releasing an eBook on the release date of the hardcover is not very smart marketing. Simply charge what you would for a hardcover and many fans will pay the price. I, for one, will not purchase a non-electronic book. It is the reason I have both a kindle and an iPad.
@22: No idea what you mean about the number of the beast, but, yes, during the last battle Demandred fights in a circle of 72 with a sa’angreal.
i’m yet to pick up the novel and here i am reading the review… smh
Hi Leigh,
Been here since week one, i agree with you ” satisfying” sums up my feelings. I finished the book about 8 hrs ago, many thanks to Team Jordan, Tor.Com and of course you.
That… wasn’t a review. It was a stream of consciousness with words, and shouting, and crying.
I’m not entirely sure what I just read.
Finished it at 10:12 AM Eastern time this morning. Loved it. Thought the ending was wonderful, wrapped things up nicely. We didn’t get really any of the “And what happened after was…” stuff but part of me likes that. We get to form our own ideas based on the clues scattered around.
I really wanted to see Tuon and Hawking’s conversation. “Let’s talk about this slavery thing you’ve done in my name, Tuon…” but alas no.
Also, I am interested in others thoughts on Nakomi and the role of the Creator at the end of the story.
Eqwene was tough for me. She is, and always has been, my favorite character in the series. I wanted a happy ending for her as she helped to rebuild the land. Cadsuane will be an interesting Amyrlin…
@25: Thank you! Can’t wait to see it in action. Although, I’m sure it doesn’t end up quite like Demandred would hope.
My full reaction now that I’ve read the whole book:
Wow.
{:: pauses for some time ::}
I thought Brandon did a wonderful job. In fact, I suspect that he went out of his way to “patch up” some of the continuity holes from earlier volumes (though I could never prove it and he probably wouldn’t admit it.) BUT A BIG VOICE TOLD ME SO.
Some of my favorite moments:
1) Moiraine at Merrilor – What an entrance!
2) Dannil talking to Perrin about how he should have gone with the 3 boys in TEoTW. I laughed when I read this as I realized right away it was Brandon’s homage to RJ’s original plan to have four of them (one character was dropped) – this explains the head count on TEoTW cover.
3) Taim putting the Mask of Mirrors on “Nensen” to make him look like Androl – OK, that was pretty funny!
4) Jain coming back as a Hero of the Horn. I had called that one early :-), but I’m sure many others did too. Did anybody else happen to notice that Shivan and Calian didn’t show up with the HotH? I told you – they are Elayne’s babes!
5) Agelmar giving Lan the same tongue lashing that I’ve been giving him in the re-read. Pointing out how selfish his little war was in the context of the Last Battle. Thanks Agelmar – sorry about that compulsion bit later.
6) Mat meets with Almen Bunt and Renald Fanwar – Nice touch tying together the two “everymen” from the previous prologues.
Some of my least favorite:
1) Rhuarc’s fate – especially after he was so badass, plus a favorite character
2) Losing Bela – damn
3) When that creep Mellar killed Birgitte – fortunately that all turned out OK
Gripe department:
1) Loved Mat’s immunity trick taking out Fain, and it was nicely foreshadowed — but BWS missed a chance for a bit more dramatic buildup and climax there – just my .02
2) Poor retcon attempt as Slayer mentions Gitara’s prophecy, but in the end it didn’t seem to matter that Luc went to the blight. Looks like RJ fumbled on that one, and Brandon tried his best with the retcon.
3) Whatever became of Verin’s letters? We see nothing about them in AMoL. There’s no explanation about what Verin may have said to Alanna or how Moridin nabbed her.
4) There’s one sentence mentioning the Seanchan Ogier fighting alongside Loial and Co. RJ had promised that they would meet – I was expecting a bit more.
Sir “Not Appearing in this Book” department:
Brandon did a great job of letting virtually all of the characters get a last little bit of screen time. I really appreciated that, however there are a LOT of characters, so there were still a few overlooked:
1) Merille – plot line with Talaan was a dropped ball. We see Talaan, but with no real explanation
2) Tallanvor/Morgase (Morgase gets the briefest of mentions – a paragraph would’ve been nicer)
3) Dobraine – MIA
4) Mattin Stepaneos – Talked about a little, but no screen time. Scratching his rear end in the White Tower still? Sorta strange.
5) Suffa – As others have mentioned, it’s a pity she wasn’t there for Fortuona’s meeting with Egwene.
6) Halwin Norry and Reene Harfor – I’m curious if they made it out of Caemlyn alive
7) Joline – Just wanted to see if her mouth was still blue
Living/Dying department:
1) I was stunned that Cadsuane made it – I felt sure she was on the take out list
2) I was not surprised that Lan made it, because of Min’s visions always being for the future and the whole bit with a baby.
3) We all expected Tenobia and Bashere to get it. Check. A lot of people suggested that Siuan and Bryne wouldn’t make it. Check. (Too bad … they had such a sweet “courtship” – a pity they didn’t get the time together that Moiraine and Thom will.
4) It hurt to lose Egwene – but she really went out in a blaze of glory. I was expecting it once Gawyn bought it.
RJ isn’t GRRM and has always been reluctant to kill off Light-side characters. I thought the body count was appropriate: painful enough for an End-of-the-World battle, while retaining the more upbeat WoT feel.
Best Movie Scenes department
OK – Turning WoT into a series of movies would be a disaster. If nothing else, it would LOOK like it was Moridin riding off into the sunset. With that said, there are a few scenes in AMoL that would be awesome on screen:
1) My fav: Lan riding Mandarb toward Demandred with the flaming arrows taking down Trollocs, lighting the way
2) Thom’s view of the battle high above Thankan’dar
3) Talmanes and the dragons blast the wall of Caemlyn (and all the Trollocs)
4) The initial ginormous gateway that opened onto the AS camp, showing the assembled might of the Sharans.
A final thought. I don’t mean disrespect to the departed DKS – who did a lot of great, great fantasy covers; however his planned cover for AMoL would have been grossly out of sync with the scene as written. In contrast, Michael Whelan’s actual cover is pretty close to the text.
spolier shmoilers… it is definitly the journey to the results where the memory is made. thank you for the spoilers and all the awesome noise around this release. For myself I still await the delivery of AMOL, and , like an addict “jonesing” for a fix… my mind is so wishing that amazon would open a gateway (not the old desktop in the cow spotted box) and give it now !
And since i am in wish mode, it would be awesome if retailers would price a pkg deal where you can get both “ole-school style” and ebook as a combo. i think if one drops $40 for a hardcover.. the ebook should come along with it. just sayin. & throw in the audio (would be cool if they had differnt voices for each character too)
At least it should be here in a few days… and then this reality will temporarily cease to exist as i emmerse, absorb, and injest this final 900+ pages in the world Jordan spun up and Sanderson caps off. my excitement is boundless.
Question: is there a Loial the Ogier cameo? or do are y’all gonna make me waitand see?
Thank you Tor, Jordan, Sanderson !
in full jitter-mode,
Joshman
Illinois
Loial POV = one of the best scenes in the book.
I was on here at 7.00 am this mornig; With the intent to read! Thanks Liegh for talking me out of it!!!
Just got my book and i,m ready to go!!!
Coffee and baily,s Check.
Classical music Check.
Life dont get much better!!! lol
I found out this morning that you can make yourself sick by reading too much. I finished the book at 3:30 in the morning (got it a day early). My next activities, in order, were: dance around the apartment like a loon; fall onto bed, exhausted; cry myself to sleep with tears of… contentment?; and finally, wake up 5 hours later and immediately throw up.
(blech)… and immediately grab some mouthwash. ugh.
Back to the tears. There was a lot to get choked up about in this final novel. Not only the loss of some pretty major characters who have been with us since the beginning (or pretty close to it), but the sheer volume of minor characters and major minor characters who were lost was almost overwhelming. Some of my favorites died. Some of my least favorites died. Some died well, and some did not get the sendoff they deserved.
It was brutally realistic.
I think, though, what made it, all the death, all the loss, something bittersweet, instead of just bitter, was Egwene. Like Leigh, I’m still trying to figure out exactly how to put into words what I’m feeling right now, but none of the words I have are enough. Thom’s predicament on the slope of Shayol Ghul is now very understandable. However, I have to say something now. I have to have something to start with.
She was the difference. There were many characters who played significant roles in the last battle, but there was no one who matched Egwene in how pivotal her role was. Both at Merrilor and Shaol Ghul, she showed why she deserved the title of Ooh Ooh Girl. Her roles at each location were different, but no less important than each other. She did what she had to do, what she wanted to do, and she accomplished it as only she could. I know my thoughts on this will change over time. As of right now, my emotions are pretty raw.
One last thought (at least for this post) on the series at its end. A large part of the fun in reading these books has been the wild conjecture and theorizing that their incompleteness allowed. The thrill of a correct guess at each reveal, or the humbling chuckle at something so obviously, yet intelligently done that we didn’t even see it coming will be missed (Seriously?!?!? we missed that? Us? the most detail oriented fanbase on the planet?). The theorizing is not over, but relegated to a more minor role. Now that the series is complete, some question have to be asked: Is it strong? Does it work? Is it beautiful? For me, the answer to all three is yes, and I wouldn’t hesitate to call this the most strong, functional, and beautiful series of books I have ever read, or am likely to read in my lifetime. That said, I wish us all a satisfying re-read.
p.s. my that moment is Leigh’s “Olver and the Horn” moment.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought the reviewer was high when she wrote it. It made it difficult to read.
I got the book on Thursday, when my local bookstore called me and told me a special order had come in. When I came by to see what it was, they pulled out AMOL. I thought it was a trap, but then decided to play along, and walked out 3 minutes later 37 bucks poorer but 909 pages richer. Wow.
Finished it today, and I am amazed, and drained, and elated. Wow.
Egwene was a punch in the gut – I did not see that coming.
How did Mat un-die after Fain?
Doilion Mellar did not die painfully enough. His abduction of Elayne made be cry out in fear.
Still not sure how Demandred subverted an entire continent into being Darkfriends. And I’m not sure how comfortable I am with the idea that most Sharans are dark-skinned. Actually I am – not comfortable at all.
I thought Rand kneeling and extending a hand was too cute by half, and also made no sense. Did he know about the prophecy too, and was just trying to get out of it in the same way I assume Brandon Sanderson was?
Lan. Of course, Lan.
What happens with Graendal? Predictions?
Is there anyone who’ll see Rand’s… new form, and recognize him? Hilarity will most definitely ensue. Also, can he just alter reality now, without channeling? Is he the Creator? A Creator with a smoking habit?
The Tinkers coming through the gateways to help made me tear up a bit.
Taim certainly abandoned the Black Tower quickly. If Androl was that effective with gateways during that battle, I’m kind of shocked they didn’t just circle up behind him and have him take out all Trollocs and Dreadlords!
Perrin and Faile’s lastr scene together finally made me not dislike them/her. A bit. Oh okay fine it was heartwarming. *sulk*
I had to google “*good guy* darkfriend” a lot in this book to see if there’d been any evidence before now. Wow with the generals.
Logain was more… dickish than I remembered.
How do that many Trollocs grow and thrive? They can’t have abducted THAT many Borderlanders. And even if they “grow their own food,” the food needs to eat plants, and I think the Blight isn’t a major agricultural center. Thoughts?
Can we have a Deathly Hallows-like epilogue that describes whever everyone is 20 years later? Please please please?
Let’s just say I eagerly await the re-read of AMOL!!!
ooh, I’m really angry now. I’ll never read WoT again after this. Rand should have killed Empress Tuon (may she die soon) for this. Get your filthy Seanchan paws off of Min, the sweetest character in the whole series! And even worse, Bela dead, while Cadsuane, who ruined the whole series since she appeared LIVES! Ugh!
Still waiting for my copy to come from Amazon and I promised myself I would not read this until I’ve finished the book… and I’m keeping my promise!
@37: Tearans are mostly dark skinned, and they’re largely ok. Tuon is dark skinned. The sea folk are dark skinned. They’re not dark friends.
Mat didn’t undie — he was immune to Mashadar and just faking it until Fain got close enough to stab.
Rand isn’t the creator, but he can manipulate the pattern of reality, much as other people can in T’A’R. Makes sense, after all the pattern-weaving he did during the last battle.
The only people who would recognize Moridin and are still alive are Moghedien and Graendal — not sure what would happen to them, but not too worried they’d sound an alarm on it — and Nynaeve and Moiraine. Nynaeve already suspects, and I don’t think Moiraine would mind.
I was lucky enough to get the book about 4pm GMT on Monday and I have read it pretty much constantly until then and I’ve just finished.
Exquisite is damn right.
I must admit I absolutely kicked myself when Olver blew the horn and the heroes came, I don’t recall seeing anywhere a prediction about Mat’s link being broken but I’m probably totally wrong and some clever soul thought of it. For a moment I thought Olver was Mat reborn after he died the first time, which meant he was the hornblower that way but then I thought a little bit more :)
Egwene: I just did not see that coming. I just burst into floods of tears. It makes sense of course, the quote that they used for one of the quotes building up to the release but I was sure she would live. Even the sentence as she died I was thinking ‘How’s she going to get out of this one?’.
Omg I thought for a minute there that Faile was Lanfear all along. But I’m glad Perrin got his girl back :) He deserved it, the scene with Master Luhhan was also beautiful.
I cried quite a lot when Kwamesa got zapped. And at Rhuarc’s fate. And Bashere. Oh and Birgitte I was like ‘You B******** MELLAR NOOOO!’. But Olver helped a lot there and saved a lot on therapy for both me and Elayne I think :)
I felt sure, 100% sure, that Cadusane was going to die. After all this was the moment that she had lived for, fought for and survived for. I was also sure that Mat would die. And I was half right there.
And Bela. The moment Bela died, the whole battle changed course. The world shifted on it’s axis. I thought a tiny little bit that Olver would turn around and one of the heroes would be Egwene riding out on Bela :) Oh god I made myself cry again.
Can’t resist a bit more speculation. Does anyone think that one of Melaine’s babies is Birgitte? Yeah, and who the hell is Tinni? She was in like every scene!
@37 rboodle,
I really don’t think Demandred got all of Shara, just a large portion that fell behind him due to the prophecies he fullfilled. Shara is huge, if he got the whole continent he should have showed a MUCH larger force, both in troops and in channelers, than he did.
Logain is about as he always was, though he’s also undergoing a Heroic BSOD after his imprisonment.
The Blight has a LOT of wild life, wierd, evil plants and animals, but still plants and animals.
@42, little.
The Horn issue was long debated. The debate basically came down to “Does Balefire mean the death didn’t really happen or not?” And was never really settled on before now. Answer is that death did happen but was then undone apparently.
Mellar and Birgitte was sad and then hillarious. “I killed you” “I’m an immortal hero, didn’t cha know?”
I work from home. Despite numerous attempts to convince myself that I could work a normal day today, productivity utterly ceased the moment the doorbell rang at around 11:00am. I’m on page 808 now, and have
probablydefinitely been rushing through too fast to appreciate the story fully, because Egwene’s death didn’t hit me the way I know it will when I read it a second time.But then I hit the line “Am I not allowed to be a hero here, too?” and now I’m in floods.
@Kakita
Ah, thank you, that debate completely passed me by!
@@@@@ 43. KakitaOCU
I think it was more the question of whether Matt’s ‘death’ at Rhuidean was picked up as the point when his link with the horn was severed. This book specifically says that it was the events at R that broke the link.
@@@@@25. neverspeakawordagain
The number of the beast (666) is a reference to the ‘final battle’ in the Bible.
I was a little jarred by the final Matt/Tuon scene. Here comes the winning general back to his wife, and she basically says “Since I’m pregnant, I don’t need you any more and can kill you.” Is this supposed to be Tuonian humour? It certainly makes no dynastic sensc since everyone who wants to pass on an inheritance would like to have: an heir and a spare, and those surviving to at least the age of six to get them past childhood fatal illness. An empress barely pregnant would hardly be doing her dynasty a favour by having all her egg in one basket and her only husband disposed of. So maybe it was just her sense of humour….
@38: Yeah, but she’s stuck being Amyrlin. That’s like, a fate worse than death for her.
The Wheel of Time has ended, go in peace.
It is done! I am saddened. I am elated. I am bummed yet thrilled.
I still wish “Robert Jordan” was able to see the whole project home, though, despite the herculean effort of Brandon Sanderson.
Thanks Mr. Rigney. It was quite the ride.
Cant get it yet :-(
but read ch3 &4 at B&N over lunch. First tears p118 where Rand is thinking about Tam sendig him to check the fence.
Finished about an hour ago. It’s still sinking in. I’ll re-read it slower over the coming days and weeks, but for now…wow. I can’t believe it’s over. Just…wow.
also – my favorite part by far was Birgitte and Mellar during the last battle. Just awesome!
I thought Egwene naming her anti-balefire weave The Flame of Tar Valon was just so moving, and it was extra powerful since they already covered “Watcher of the Seals” earlier, making all of her titles meaningful, instead of just fluff.
When Faile, Saldean and uber-knowledgable of horses rode Bela through the trollocs and said she was better than the finest Tairen stock I teared right the fuck up and made kitten noises through my beard.
I’m so glad Mat wasn’t off in this book, I was so worried, since he was absolutely atrocious to me in The Gathering Storm, and then in Towers of Midnight when everyone considered him fixed I still thought he was off, with his boots and stump steward and such. This book brought him back in line, and although some things were off like that sample we got beforehand and a couple of offhand jokes that fell flat, he as himself was back and he shone.
Noal returning and saving Olver was another major teary moment for me, it was so perfect and emotionally fullfilling. Olver wasn’t abandoned after all. Did anyone catch Androl saying springs (I think) reminded him of Jain, maybe he’s Noal’s son?
Rands ending was perfect, things finally started to fully sink in when Tam carried the torch to his sons funeral pyre and my whole face started aching from trying not to cry.
I am so glad this book exists, and so sad this book exists.
I had a feeling that the if/or fortelling of Gawyn and Egwene ment only one would get to live, and seeing how Gawyn saved Egwene in ToM i figured those rings would get him killed and they did. So when Egwene died it was a real gut punch.
But, least Brigitte and Gaidal Cain will be back together in the fourth age.
The Perrin/Lanfear stuff was interesting. Reminded me of her tempation of Perrin back in TDR. Way to go, Perrin, you beat compulsion!! Shame Rhuarc wasn’t so lucky.
Ishamael/Mordin’s punishment made me laugh. The DO does have sense of humor, restoring a suicidal person to life and then naming them death.
And dammit, why couldn’t Alviarin die!! Grr!!!
Twenty years of waiting, and you know what? It was worth it. The series got a bit rough in the middle, but it all came together in the end, and I’m content. I only wish Jordan had lived to see it through.
Thanks, Leigh. From your work on the FAQ to the Reread, I’ve been following you for almost as long as WoT itself, and you’ve been a great tour guide.
@46
Hawkwing says that it was “Another moment, one that you cannot remember” on page 817.
OMG EGWENE. I just. cannot. But you go, take out that smug jerk and his smug face. that was spectacular.
I read way too fast for true coherency, and need to read again more slowly, but what a ride.
That was… an exhausting book. Can’t believe it’s over.
Mostly satisfied. Sanderson is always great with building up and pulling big reveals, so those turned out great even though they were waiting to be used for so long.
When I realized “The Last Battle” was 200 pages long, I just laughed and said, “Of course.”
In the end, I wasn’t so shocked at the characters who died as the ones who lived. I’ve imagined what the Last Battle would be like for over a decade, and I got used to the idea of all these people dying.
And Androl, where the hell has the baddest dude in Randland been for the first twelve books?
A wild ride and a satisfying ending. It’s after 1am and I have to go to work tomorrow/today, but I could not stop. I started reading when EOTW showed up at the bookstore and I liked the cover. Was that 1991? A long time… Many thanks to James Rigney, Harriet and Team Jordan, and Brandon Sanderson for bringing this epic to a fitting and moving close. I agree with Leigh that there were some issues of pacing, tone, and character names, but these were minor compared to the punch the conclusion delivered. Now to try to sleep and resist the urge to reread “The Last Battle” again.
Cassandra
@54 soda
Arr, you are correct. Pays me for reading too fast. LOL.
Thanks Leigh for keeping us company on the journey. Am a huge fan of your re-caps and reviews.
Team Jordan nailed a solid landing on the final jump – A Memory of Light nails what has been a long, frustrating and rewarding narrative. And that it does it with still some questions and half answers floating I think is a perfect way to finish a series that has prompted so much debate and speculation.
For me Sanderson grew with every novel, and by the end I felt comfortable with his handle on all the characters and felt he even took some previous minor characters like Talmanes and made them shine.
I am positive that on my first read through I missed things. Just. So Much. Stuff.
Egwene’s passing was so perfectly, exquistely done.
As was in no order but Olver, Brigette, Shara, Hawking, Noal, Androl and Pevara, the Great Captains being broken, lava, Gaul, Talmanes, Moraine reciting the prohecy, Tam and Rand, Rand and Elayne and the babies, Rand’s gifts and more that I just can’t remember …
but perhaps most of all the skill in bringing Matt into the lead role and the management of the battle scenes – and to make that level of detail interesting, make sense and with the right pacing for special moments. That was an author at full command.
I feel flat though, I have spent my life always knowing there was another book coming. And now there isn’t. This is it in all it’s imperfect glory. Thank you Sanderson and Harriet for bringing us home.
Light but the Last battle was long and draining.
I was waiting the entire last battle for Dremandred to figure out that Rand was at the Bore fighting the Dark One, how thick can one man be?
This book could so easily have been 2 books rather than 1.
There are still so many things that i want to know.
Do the Tinkers find the song?
What were these prophecies that Dremandred fullfiled with the Sharan.
Was ‘The Town’ only in the book so Faile and her people could break through.
What did Loial say at the Great Stump?
How did the Trollocs reproduce?
A lots of things happened that I thought would, even the Seanchan truce – tho that is probably the thing i hate the most, still havin suldam and damane. Damn those Seanchan, they did the least amount of fighting out of everyone, took the least damage, they should have been bloodied beyond imagine, broken and built back up by Mat.
I would have loved to have seen an extra chapter set 10-20 years after, just for some little closure, and to know that Rand is happy.
Although a lot of things affected me powerfully, my one-and-only bout of actual tears was Noal returning as a Hero of the Horn to save Olver. Wow.
Marks @@@@@ 46:
Somehow, I never noticed that particular formation of a full circle is 6 + 66 “=” 666. Neat. However, a 35+37 circle is actually more powerful, as it contains a more nearly equal number of men and women.
As a side note, I know a character said that Demandred was in a circle of 72, but did we ever get confirmation of that, or was it merely that he was using the sa’angreal (which I’m guessing was the one between Callandor and the Choedan Kal in power)?
Also, the last Mat/Tuon scene completely summed up their entire relationship. It is absolutely Tuon being humorous—she knows that it is her duty to the Empire to produce many heirs to compete and prove their fitness to rule after her. She’s just making Mat uncomfortable—something she clearly enjoys doing.
@2 and similar: This was Leigh basically taking her non-spoiler review and explaining all the teasers (with some extra analysis thrown in). If you hadn’t read the original one, then I can understand why you’d be frustrated. For those of us who had read the original, it was interesting (or, it was for me, anyway).
skillr @60:
Per RJ, “There are female trollocs, but you don’t want to know more than that.”
neverspeakawordagain @5: If you think that Nakomi’s identity is the only loose end left unresolved, then you are much better at reading between the lines than I am. While I’m certain that there’s a lot to read between the lines, and I’m certain that lots of people are better at it than I am, I’m willing to bet that ever with our best collective effort, there’s a lot more than Nakomi to be revealed in the Encyclopedia (or never revealed, as RJ specified some things to be left open). I’m pretty certain the speculation will never die.
Some thoughts:
Well, Egwene, go in peace. You are my hero girl. Majorly choked up, deservedly.
Also, when she died I was all WTF girl!!! I love you but PASS ON your shiny new weave that heals the Pattern from everyone who’s been balefirin the crap out of it! Alas….
Min’s viewing of Egwene “A white flame” (all the way back in tGH ch. 24) had a double meaning I never expected.
Took me 10 minutes after finishing the book to realize the interpretation of this one. I felt a bit wool-headed for not recognizing it sooner.
Logain: your head is all kinds of messed up, brother. Glad the kids were there to set it straight. Somehow kids have a funny way of doing that to people.
And Moghedien! Low blow!! Hit the innocents?! Seriously? Your just desserts were so sweet for me.
And count me in the Surprised boat that all the theories of the True Power being the buffer for healing the Bore was right! I had dismissed them.
And no mention of the Jenn Aiel :'(. One theory I cherished go up in a poof.
One thing that makes me curious, is the Wise Ones speak of going through the Columns a third time, and we never get to see what they saw there. Interesting….
I finally got to start reading after I got off work last night and found that Amazon had delivered on time. 12 hours later, it is finished. I have to be at work again in 4 hours.
TOTALLY WORTH IT.
Just finished it and still sinking in– It was awesome but I agree with Leigh that the Matt/Fain resolution was too skimpy.
Had a fellow member on another forum accuse me of reading this too fast and not doing the story and its author enough justice as a result (burned through it in 9-11 hrs by my estimate) but dammit, this story was just too awesome to put down. Seriously.
I had many of the same reactions myself. Androl is officially the Asha’man MVP. For all of Min’s viewings about Logain getting mad props in the future, it was Androl who stole the show in my opinion.
I would pay good money, and I’m talking premium ticket prices, to see the Perrin vs. Slayer scenes in T’A’R on the big screen. In Real3D. There’s a very likely chance that my mind would explode from the awesomeness of those fights if they play out even half as well with actors as they did in my mind.
There’s so much more I could say, but I think I’ll save the specifics for each of the chapters as they come out, if I’m still around to comment. This story wasn’t perfect, and there were those parts that did fall flat for me. But overall, this was oh-so-satisfying and worth the wait. To everyone that contributed in any way to this series, well done.
Never has a day off work been so worthwhile.
Epic. Amazing. Emotional. Heh, exquisite.
Yes, AMOL had its flaws, but how could the conclusion to such a grand series not? But frankly, who cares. It was as fine and fitting an end to the series as I could imagine
Phew… Can’t really believe it’s over. At a bit of a loss for words really…
Oh, apart from one little thing – I bloody knew it! ;-)
Things I liked:
Roedran dropping in like a drunken uncle in the middle of a Thanksgiving dinner when all the fights have started.
Faile having something to do, and her thinking on the funny ironies of life re: her mission.
Perrin taking Gaul with him to TAR. Gaul has always bordered on hilariously personalitiy-less, but it was fun to see him actually do something exciting and unexpected.
Gawyn’s death. Fitting death for the biggest idiot in the entire series.
The Ogiers battles. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Why did Loial have to vanish for like five books again?
Mat’s command posts, although he took his sweet time setting up that up.
Demondred was awesome, and what the Forsaken should have been all along.
Lan’s defeat of him “surrender after you die” moment was the highlight of the entire book. Although I didn’t buy that Demo had no idea who he was.
Rand’s entire battle of wills/worlds was very creative and very well done. I don’t understand the philosophical complaints. It entirely makes sense in the cosmology of the WOT world.
Also Callonder’s purpose was neat and not many peope called that out.
Min gaining a purpose post-Rand.
I personally loved the body switch.
Things I didn’t like:
The Band of the Red Hand being split up and not really mattering a whole lot after Caemlyn.
Perrin being asleep for the ENTIRE LAST BATTLE.
Egwene’s death. Happened way too fast and I didn’t find the scene clear or well written.
TUON CALLING PEOPLE BY HER STUPID MADE UP NAMES IN HER HEAD. I never flat out hated the girl. Now I do. Knoti or some crap. Ugh.
Alanna popping up out of no where (what was the point of Verin’s letter to her?)
Moriane and Nyneave being spectators for 99% of the last battle. Sure, their key moment mattered and they did more in the previous 13 books than most characters… but still. They felt like afterthoughts.
Slayer and Fain finally dead. If it was going to be that pointless it should have happened ages ago.
The battles became a bit repetative – one reason I enjoyed the unique storylines like Olyver and Rand.
Note: Nyneave, Elayne, Egwene, Min AND Aviendha were all in the tent while Rand presented the Dragon’s Peace. Not that they really interacted with each other, as you would’ve liked, since their focus was all on Rand. Even Moiraine eventually joined them. The only ones missing really were Mat and Lan.
Overall, it was fantabulous. Perfect? No. I’m sure there is lots to
nit pick at, lots of things that seemed deus ex machina-ish. But
fabulous.
Loved Tuon and Mat’s last exchange. Now I am free to kill you, lol! I mean, owning people sucks, the whole Seanchan culture sucks. But that was funny. And Mat smiles …
Hey Lan, I knew what you meant. I was listening.
From the first moment Androl make that little itty bitty gateway to save himself from Taim’s balefire, I knew we’d be seeing that trick again.
Androl be one gateway making genius. Dude make tea! With a freaking gateway! Oh yeah, and pulled a few miracles out of his but too!
Yukiri’s idea was pretty cool too. Plus the fall and don’t die weave was a good idea.
I soooo wanted to see Perrin smack Greandal in her ugly face with his hammer. Oh well, he got to break Lanfear’s neck, close enough. Min’s viewing was Perrin would have to be there twice, or something bad would happen to Rand. Dumai’s Wells, stopping Slayer’s arrow, and killing Lanfear would be three, though. I guess there is no rule saying you can’t overachieve your prophecy!
Loved Olver saving the day, not to mention blowing the horn. Plus, how can you not t have tears in your eyes when Noal appeared and saved him. “Suddenly, Olver felt a deep warmth. He had lost so many people, but one of them … one … had come back for him.”
Hey Moghedian … say “hi” to Elaida, lol!
I literally cheered out loud, pumping my fist in the air when the horn was blown for the 2nd time and The Last Hunt appeared. That was awesomely epic.
Oh, almost forgot. Min telling Tuon whats what and outing the spy. Wouldn’t you love to hear Hawkwing telling Tuon a thing or two.
Loialson @63:
I’m already anticipating the howls of those who said the DO’s own essence could never be turned against him. Honestly, I agreed with them. But, assuming the DO is not omnipotent (which we pretty much knew), then it comes down to Callandor being a True Power sa’angreal, and as the book said “…the conduit flowed too freely, too powerfully to shut off now. Even for Shai’tan himself.” Think of giving access to True Power as turning on a faucet; maybe the DO could eventually have shut it down, but it would have taken too much time.
Well, Bair does say that she saw essentially what Aviendha saw, although she doesn’t go into specifics.
@137, 36, 28, 13 & 6
Allow me a metaphorical moment, if you will. As disinterested window shoppers to Leigh’s reread, kindly clean up the sneeze residue you left on the display case before moving on in your browsing. It’s not that you all popped in or didn’t like what you saw, it’s more the manner in which it was said.
@Leigh/tor.com
I’m looking forward to the reread. I will save my storyline comments for that occasion. I do have one applicable comment though. As I read the book sporadically over the last few days, I missed my “book club.” Thank you for making the fun and enjoyment I have had here possible. I liked the book, depressing as it was. But I felt as though I was sitting in a movie theater watching my favorite series and every time something moving or lambasting or awesome or fun happened, I looked around and no one was there to share it with. I don’t think I will truly enjoy the last installment until I experience it with the community here. To all you reread followers, Leigh, tor.com, and ultimately Team Jordan, thank you all. And here is to many shared experiences to come.
Edit: To clean up some commas and to add a few things.
I had a longer reply, but I guess I screwed it up?
I liked the book. I didn’t love it, though. I thought ToM was a better, tighter book. I thought, along with others, that some things got rushed. Logain’s “glory” prediction (which Min mentioned I don’t know how often) stands out as a disappointment to me, for instance. And I really don’t understand what purpose Allana served at Shayol Ghul, or really why it was SO important for Moiraine to be there that Noal had to die and Mat had to give up an eye.
That said – Demandred showed why Forsaken are really dangerous if you don’t have Rand or one or more of the super-girls around. Graendal, too. And Egwene was awesome. I’m not sure her death was necessary, to be honest.
I loved the moment Elayne realized that she could die and her babies still live. I like Elayne as a character, but that was a “uh oh” moment.
I’ll read it again ;)
Could someone explain to me how, in the end, Perrin is even relevant to the series?
Everything he did that actually matter to the plot could have been done by any one of the hundreds of secondary characters.
Imagine the WoT without Perrin/Faile…in the end, the outcome of the series is completely unchanged. All he does is get married, defend the Two Rivers from Fain (which COULD have been relevant, had Fain not also been an unecessary character), follow his wife around for four books, then spend two books fighting Slayer in TAR…all of which ended up affecting the Last Battle exactly zero percent. You could have cut Perrin/Faile/Fain/Slayer/the wolves out of the series completely, and had almost the exact same outcome.
What a waste of a character. And don’t get me started on how freaking POINTLESS it was to bring Moiraine back from the dead, skip all the emotionally satisfying reunions and character moments we’d been waiting for for LITERALLY twenty years, give her a page and a half of dialogue at the beginning of the book, then have her sit and watch Rand throughout the Last Battle. She should have just stayed dead if that’s all she was going to do.
Even without mentioning all the other ways in which I think we got shortchanged, I feel like I read a poorly thought out fan fiction(this isn’t necessarily a slam on Brandon, I have no idea how constrained he was by RJ’s plot shortcomings). 80% of the secondary characters and sub-plots which made this series so rich and enjoyable ended up being completely irrelevant… If this was really the planned end from the beginning, there is no reason it should have gone on longer than five books.
Ugh.
I hothotdog the book at noon on Jan-7 and finished it at 11pm Jan-8
But I can’t recall what happened to Bayle Doman and why he wasn’t with Liewin when she was bonded.
Did Bayle die?
Nice work Leigh.
So this book is 900+ pages, of which like 600 are battle scenes. Good luck recapping those. I do look forward to it.
Not to laugh at you too much for the task ahead, but I will give one Nelson HA HA!
74. ChrisBeckstrand
Personally I really enjoyed the Perrin/Faile plotline, just felt it got a bit wordy during Faile’s capture. Seeing them grow into legitimate heros on their own. Faile being just a normal girl with the hope of the light in her hands, and Perrin becoming the Wolf King…their moments in this book got me choked up again and again. I loved their arc.
I cant say as much for all the screen time given to all the battles-which I felt got a bit dragged out and tedious. I get it, it’s war, I love details, but I believe I could use less arm hacking and gutting (after the 15th bloody description each paragraph), and still see the picture of sacrifice the soldiers gave. After seeing people fight battles on all fronts for prolongued amounts of time, with only small character developments in -between. But it’s the Last Battle, Big Smash endings in swaths are part of the shenanigans; gotcha, I’ll deal.
I cherished every moment that I had with the character driven moments, especially Faile’s little entourage through the Blight. I was just so relieved to find out Olver was okay, but not hearing that he didn’t die at Caemlyn until chapter Upty-teen made me all WHAT?! Kid, don’t give me a heart attack like that!!! I thought you were a trollocs dinner, was beginning to mourn you!
Cheeky little devil, you deserve the glory Hornsounder. For all the children who’ve been abandoned or left alone in their life, you got to represent and have One come back for you, boy. Another got me so choked up and tearing moment for my boy Olver, THREE CHEERS!
And Vanin and Harnan were good guys, outed at last. That was some rascally writing there boys! I was impressed! Far more interesting A Darkfriend Among Us plot than the belabored and extended one Elayne had for what, 4 books? THAT’s the way to get suspense for the little guys without nukes of Power! BRAVO Team Jordan for making me love to itty little bits Perrin and Faile again and again in ToM, and again in aMol. I never thought I’d be so endeared towards them again since tSR.
Fain OTOH, ended up rather redundant, after being a thorn in everyone’s side for how long? I thought it funny how he died, just anti-climactic :).
Finished about a few hours ago. I felt an overwhelming sadness, having spent 22 years with tWoT. Still trying to digest.
I am just sad that Jordan did not get to see this day.
I haven’t been following this series as long as some, but I still have been with it for 13 years. I knew that I would be emotional once it was over, but I am surprised at the intensity of my reaction. While there were some flaws, the work delivered as a whole.
One of the things that I have been thinking about as I sort through my thoughts is how Rand’s realization that he must let himself care rather than be hard. It is so easy to be hard in this world, to not care. But the wheel of time has made me think about caring more than anything else in my life. I let myself care about the characters and the series, and now I am deeply saddened that it is over, which is compounded by the fact that Robert Jordan cannot share this moment with his fans.
Finishing the series was amazing; but it also hurt. I think that this range of emotion that I and many other are feeling as well is the nobility of the human experience that Rand refers to in his battle with the Dark One. It makes me what to care more, to be more. Not only does the series expemplify this theme, but Mr. Jordan himself did, by passing his baby on to another person. That must have been incredibly difficult; but he cared enough to make that sacrfice for us.
carl_the_second @73:
You’re right that Moiraine was essentially irrelevant at Shayol Ghul; her big effect was at the Field of Merrilor, where the treaty would almost certainly not have been signed without her.
As for Alanna, Verin sent her off on her mission, and we don’t know how she got to Shayol Ghul, but the end result was perfect for what was needed: Alanna willingly let go of Rand’s bond before she died. If she had died first, Rand would likely have gone into the death rage and probably all would have been lost. If she had lived but not released the bond, she might have known about Rand surviving in Moridin’s body. Maybe that was what Verin intended all along.
As for Logain’s prediction, I strongly suspect that this not the fulfillment of it—or, at least, only the beginning of it. (We know of at least one other of Min’s visions that hasn’t happened yet (or may have begun but not been finished)—namely, her vision of Aviendha having Rand’s babies.) It looks to me as if the glory to come for Logain is leading the Black Tower in the Fourth Age.
It’s done! And so fulfilling… That’s about all I can say having just finished it.
It definitely needs a reread in a week or so :D
Wow! I finished last night and am still recovering. After 22 years, the finale was enjoyable and tragic at the same time, both in RandLand and RealWorld. What the Shayol Ghul am I going to do with myself now?
Thanks Leigh and all the re-readers for helping enrich this experience. Thanks to Tor, Harriet, and Brandon for making sure we weren’t left unfulfilled. But thanks most of all to RJ for a staggerging work.
Just wanted to say that I’m still apalled that the ebook isn’t coming out until April. I read everything on my kindle – so much easier to read at night in bed, so much easier to read on the train to school, so much easier to carry around, and I simply don’t have room to store books anymore. I spend a TON of money buying ebooks. Yet, for some reason, you wouldn’t allow us to buy this book in an ebook version until April. It took about 35 hours from release for the clean .mobi and .epub versions to show up on common torrent sites.
Don’t get me wrong – I’ll purchase the ebook when it comes out in april. But there is something seriously perverse about forcing people to pirate the ebook if that’s how they read, when it simply has absolutely no effect on preventing piracy. I can’t imagine the number of sales was increased by delaying the piracy at most 35 hours, while I know I won’t be alone in only reading it in ebook form. Looking forward to actually reading this post tomorrow when I finish the book.
Soooo, finished CH 5 at lunch today.
Teared up with Lan at the Gap (thats two) and with Rand and Elayne’s dinner, and at Loyal’s mom explaining why she was argueing for opening the Book of Translation. It made me think of one of my favorite poems and forshadows Rands realization at the end for why not to kill the Dark One.
Good Timber
by Douglas Malloch
The tree that never had to fight
For sun and sky and air and light,
But stood out in the open plain
And always got its share of rain,
Never became a forest king
But lived and died a scrubby thing.
The man who never had to toil
To gain and farm his patch of soil,
Who never had to win his share
Of sun and sky and light and air,
Never became a manly man
But lived and died as he began.
Good timber does not grow with ease:
The stronger wind, the stronger trees;
The further sky, the greater length;
The more the storm, the more the strength.
By sun and cold, by rain and snow,
In trees and men good timbers grow.
Where thickest lies the forest growth,
We find the patriarchs of both.
And they hold counsel with the stars
Whose broken branches show the scars
Of many winds and much of strife.
This is the common law of life.
I loved the series!
But … one thing that would have made the ending better is for in the end for Rand to have thought to himself that:
“One of my first stops will be to visit the Tinkers, to teach them the song”
Without that one single missing line, we simply just don’t know if the Tinkers will find the song or not.
This was a demanding, emotionally draining and great book to read, and I was almost vibrating with excitement the whole time I read it. Then I spent the last hundred pages crying.
This has always been my favorite book series, and I strongly believe that it will always be. I really liked the book, and felt really satisfied with it, at least for now. I might find things that I frown at when I re-read it, but regardless I really enjoyed the book.
The reason Mat and Padan Fain felt so… so… Deus ex Machina to me,
in spite of their past history, was because of the passages involving
the cleansing of Saidin – THE TAINT AND MASHADAR TOGETHER cancel each other totally. All the passages about Fain being something new that has never been in the pattern before were made null and void by a simple dagger between the ribs.
Fain, Mat, the Dark One, and Rand should have been in the prison
together during the metaphysical exposition and many world creation, all participating. Chronologically after Mat controls all the armies though, I would not give up those passages.
Egwene breaks my burly, manly, bearded heart into tears.
But in spite of how I think it should have gone with the other great evil of hate that has never been in the pattern before, I’m very satisfied on the whole.
I finished the book a few days ago. I must say…I’m still trying to encompass it all. So many things happened in this book:
Loial – He had some of the best internal monologue in the entire series. Great, great writing here.
Tam – We were finally shown the best swordsman in the series…perhaps (I’ll come back to this). This man’s interactions with everyone he..err..interacted with throughout this book SHOWED us who Tam is as a person, a friend and a father. His understanding of the Void was…wondrous.
Lan – What can be said about Lan throughout this book? Was I surprised by his accomplishments? Not in the least. Perhaps Lan is the best swordsman in the series…I don’t suppose it really matters. As Rand said: everything was taken from this man and HE TOOK IT BACK!
Perrin – If it takes the combination of two souls to move between the Dream and the Real in the flesh…whose soul did Perrin acquire? One would assume it was Hopper, though I’m not one to make assumptions. I enjoyed his path through this book. I was truly happy that he found Faile alive and was able to have her Healed.
Mat – Completely lived up to my expectations as my favorite character. From my foxhole, there was not a single misstep throughout the entire book. His interactions with Tuon were spot on. I would like to know what Hawkwing had to say to her though.
Rand – Is there anything that can truly be said about Rand’s battle with the Dark One? It did not happen in the way I expected. I thought it played out perfectly. The true Last Battle turned out to be, for the most part, a philosophical debate. As Verin said…the battle would not happen as Rand expected. And it was exquisite…. (Oh..and kudos to a second Matrix-like plot point. Rand: I’m going to show them a world without you. Turns out it was horrible, but hey, Rand’s only human. And sure, I realize this is not the case…but it’s amusing…you know it is.)
Egwene – There aren’t really any words.
In all, this book was worth every moment I’ve spent waiting for it. Which, just to put it out there, has been half my life. I started reading this series because one day in the book store I grabbed the thickest book I could find, which just happened to be The Eye of the World. I’ve enjoyed every moment of the journey.
Leigh, thank you for all you’ve done here at Tor. Brandon, thank you for bringing us to the end of an Age. Team Jordan, thank you, thank you, thank you. Harriet, God bless. You didn’t have to do this for us, but you did for the love of your husband and his work. Thank you. James…thank you is not enough. You gave us your world. And what a world it has been.
Blind
looking forward to the re-read.
The book was wonderful, but was I the only one who missed Dobraine? He was such a prominent character and he didn’t make an appearance at all.
Re: the tinkers and their song. The song doesn’t exist. In the Aiel way-back machine we see thru Rand’s eyes the beginning of that myth. They were half remembering stories of seed singing. I think the quote was something like…mygreatfather used to tell me stories of people coming for miles around to hear Aiel singing. We’re off to discover what that was. And a myth was born…
This book certainly marks a change for many of us. Echoing what Brandon Sanderson wrote on his blog, I will wake up tomorrow for the first time in nearly 20 years without a new WoT in my future. I enjoyed the book, and thopught the plot was a fitting end to the epic story RJ set out to tell. Here are some things I loved/hated about aMoL:
A few things I loved:
– Rand’s final moments are certainly what I wanted to see happen. After the pain (physical, emotional, etc,) that he bore throughout the series, I certainly hoped that he would have a chance to just be a normal person for a while after the last battle.
– As others have said, such as @29, I would love to be a fly on the wall for the Hawkwing/Fortuona conversation. Mat’s idea to set that up was brilliant. It might even help remedy the less agreeable parts of the Dragon’s Peace.
– I have always been on the fence about Cadsuane. Becoming Amyrlin certainly seems like a fitting punishment for her. I can’t imagine anything she would hate more than this. Replacing Egwene with her also solves the problem of having s very young Amyrlin who is so powerful that she lives (and remains Amyrlin) for 300 years.
– Egwene’s new weave — the Flame of Tar Valon — was very moving. I hope one of the other Aes Sedai saw the weaves so it is not lost with her.
A few things I did not:
– I agree with what several others have written abou Mat’s role here. He was brilliant in command and the plot devices Sanderson used to put him in charge were clever, but the ending of the Mat/Fain/Mashadar plotline was really weak. As I neared the end of the enormous battle chapter, I remember thinking that we should have seen Fain. The confrontation as written was very anti-climactic. If the Fain plot line wasn’t going to play a bigger role elsewherein the book, he should have been in the cave with Rand and Moridin.
– The solar eclipse seemed meaningless in the plot. After the early prophecy about “twice dawns the day”, I expected the eclipse to play a bigger role. People couldn’t really see the sun because of the storm anyway.
– I always wanted a known good character to turn to the Shadow. It happened in the AOL, when Ishamael and Demandred changed sides. Why not now? We certainly were surprised that some characters turned out to be darkfriends, but we never saw anybody that we new for a fact had served the light willingly go over to the shadow becaue of jealousy, greed, lust, or any other temptation. I thought Bashere was the first, but the compulsion storyline shot that down.
– Like many of you, I loved Lan in this book, especially his battle with Demandred. Keeping him alive after he impaled himself on Demandred’s sword seems forced to me, though.
– I agree with @68 about Moiraine and Nynaeve sitting around for most of the book. I was thrilled to have Moiraine back, but other than her speech at the Field of Merillor near the start of the book, she doesn’t seem to do much. She probably helped Rand come up with the trap he used on Moridin, but I would like to have seen some of this interaction. She seemed as wooden to me as the characters in Rand’s “no Dark One” vision.
– I thought the lava fire hose was cheesy. I really liked Androl with his many used for gateways, but the lava was jumping the shark for me.
Some speculation:
– Regarding the Tinkers and the song — does anybody think that what Rand was singing when he was in the garden with Mat and Tuon was “the Song?” We know that Lews Therin knows the Song, so perhaps Rand will teach it anonymously to the Tinkers at some point after he rides into the sunset.
– Regarding Mat’s death @46 and @54 – Hawkwing was referring to the balefire incident in Caemlyn. Mat died there, and the link ith the Horn was broken. Rand’s balefire brought Mat back.
Despite the nits I mentioned above, I really did enjoy the book, and the series as a whole. I feel like I have grown up with these characters, because in a very real was, I have. I have probably read (or listened to) the series 10 times. If my math is correct, I have literally spent more than 100 full 24 hour days with them. Thank you RJ, Harriett, and Brandon for enriching my life by creating this wonderful story with all of its highs, it lows, and everything in between.
Sarmis @@@@@ 84 –
I too would like to do the same, but I have no experience with this. Any tips? Thanks.
Wow. Just, wow. An “exquisite” finale. Now I finally get to reward myself with Leigh’s review and the comments.
Still have a lot of questions and I think maybe I missed somethings?
Let’s see what Leigh and the folks have said…
OH what I ride it has been. Just finished the first read, working on re-read, but damn…. still in shock. It has been a wild ride, and thank you Robert and Brandon for the good times
Oh my lord. I actually cried when Egwene went down. She was always my favorite of the powerpuff girls.
Read it in a a blur. Thank you RJ, for creating and building this world. May you rest in peace. Thank you Brandon, for taking on this monumental task and giving us a great ending. Bravo.
Thank you Team Jordan. It has been a great ride.
It just seemed to me that most characters seemed to die or survive in pairs/groups. Siuan/Bryne, Gawyn/Egwene, Beldeine and her Ashaman, Bashere/Deira. On the opposite we have Thom/Moiraine, Mat/Tuon, Lan/Nynaeve, Galad/Berelain, Perrin/Faile, Rand/Min/Aviendha/Elayne. Although Elayne is an interesting case, she lost her Warder but she belonged to another group.
We didn’t really see much of pairs being broken up amongst our main cast. If one died, they both died. Although, I suppose you could count Ituralde and Alsalam as a pair in which one died. Logain and his Aes Sedai too although that doesn’t really stick out in my mind.
Just a thought, haha.
Okay, first off – it’s over! After 11 long years (for me), I no longer have a WoT book to look forward to with feverish anxiety. But, whether intentional or not, the final book did not resolve a whole lot of issues leaving ample opportunity for continued speculation and theorizing for the years to come!
There were many parts of the book I absolutely adored and (inevitably) many parts that I disliked or took exception to.
Stuff I liked:
(a) Lan behaeding Demandred and holding the head aloft to the battling forces. That was fifty shades of epic right there. And it was just freakin’ befitting that the great Demandred falls to a person who could not even channel. Sometimes, it just about sheer cussed determination.
(b) Androl’s Gateways. Really inspired stuff – both at the Black Tower and the Lavaland magic.
(c) Rand and Mat’s “who came out on top” debate.
(d) Egwene become the Flame of Tar Valon.
(e) Perrin killing Lanfear – take that you sick old bat!
(f) Graendal’s and Moghedien’s fate – brilliant! Death is simply too good for those two.
(g) The moment when it revealed that Callandor was to be a trap for Moridin! (certainly NEVER saw that one coming).
And now, unfortunately, for the not so great stuff:
(a) Nothing happening. Seriously, I always thought the book would a revelation a minute, with each long-awaited plot resolutions in each chapter. Aside from the Black Tower and the Seanchan no real resolutions took place until the last 200 pages of the book.
(c) Logain did not step over Rand’s dead body laughing.
(d) Moiraine came back and…did squat. Seriously, you wait until the penultimate book to reintroduce her and she does not do anything! (okay, okay, Dragon’s Peace, etc. but really, that’ not what we had in mind)
(e) The Forsaken – alive until the very last pages…and then flicked off like flies in a hurry.
(f) Okay, please, someone tell me WHAT THE HELL THE ENDING MEANT! How did Rand switch bodies? What point is there is becoming close to everyone again only to leave them? Why did the Dark One simply not kill Rand (or any Moiraine or Nynaeve for that matter) and be done with it instead of my dream vs your dream?The Dark One is not dead, so he will eventually be broken open again…sigh.
(g) And the Dark One. I guess this can happen – you build up a character as so epically bad and then it’s tough to have your hero just up and beat his butt (Garth Nix, Paolini anyone? No one? Not surprised). The Dark One was so…so powerless. The infinite power of evil did not have the foresight to have some guards (other than one mentally addled helper) hang around within Shayol Gul in order to waylay our intrepid Trio . C’mon.
But I think this is just the sadness talking. I miss WoT already. Over the past decade, it was always there…
I have to thank Team Jordan so very much for their effort. It was a gargantuan challenge and they rose to it magnificently. I think even Christopher Tolkien did not have as difficult a task in piecing together the culmination of what is undoubtedly the best modern Fantasy series there is (there I said it!).
Please please please consider the outlier novels. I think WoT is too large and beautiful a series to ever die. So many stories, so many possibilities, it would a wonderful. Hey, if I sound desperate…er…oh, shush! It’s been a ordeal for us all!
There are no beginnings or endings. But this ending sure leaves behind a large gaping hole which no series will ever even come close to filling.
Egwene = DAMN… yes. Certainly sad, but she went out the way she should have, leading the White Tower in a last-ditch effort against one of the Forsaken. I think what hit me MORE with her was the counter-weave to BALEFIRE. I mean, holy CRAP. Even to the end, the SuperKids were doing things thought impossible in the Age of Legends. While I hated Egwene for a while (as only a teenaged male could…) over the last 4 books, I really came to appreciate her. I wonder if she will be chosen to be tied to the Horn the next time around.
There were a few funny moments in the book even if I can’t recall them all. From Mat’s chandelier comment about Min to Moghedien finally showing up, taking disguise as Demandred and having a dragon fired at her almost immediately. Then later when she manages to escape that, she gets caught by the Seanchan. I might not have been too hung up if she had managed to escape totally.
As for the Dark One. He just generally felt underwhelming to me. He just seemed too human for a primordial force. Too petty. That’s one thing that I didn’t like although I don’t think that could have been helped as it was set in motion a while back. Even having the Creator talk (or some such) in TEOTW was just cheesy to me. THE ALL CAPS DIDN’T HELP.
Fain also seemed to be rushed in. His confrontation with Mat was abrupt. The Slayer/Perrin battle had considerable build up whereas was just a blink and you’ll miss it moment.
As far as a confrontation with a force of ultimate evil can be realized without seeming ridicoulous, it was done quite well in this book, I guess.
On the whole the book was “OK” in my opinion. Sadly it had no brilliance in it, which I had hoped for, as some of WoT books did have brilliant moments (Rands self revelation moment on Dragonmount in TGS for example or Perrin defending the Two Rivers in Shadow Rising), but I guess the baggage accumulated in the last 13 books, including the strong indications where the story would have to go and which things would have to happen before the end did not leave much room for brilliance.
So in the end the book was the logical end to the Wheel of Time, a fitting and satisfying final volume, which was – naturally – not able to repair the serious flaws that were made with the series after the first few books.
One thing I really did not like though, but which again could have been foreseen, was that so few major characters died in the last battle. But using the death of a character as powerfull element in a story was never something Jordan could do, and Sanderson obviously was not in the position to change this.
So, it’s finally over. I might be a bit biased in my opinion as I really, really didn’t enjoy the books after the 7th or the 8th, I can’t even recall which, but I had to keep on reading. I would like to say that I liked it, I would like to say it was exquisite. I would even like to tell you that I loathed it. I didn’t. All I really got was a kind of bland, mild dislike, no great feelings, which I consider even worse than all-out-loathing.
All the way from the start. I just couldn’t really get into the book. At first I really just looked forward to the Mat-chapters, let me see some nice general-action, more seanchan and Tuon. And when I got to those I just really hoped they would end. Never before in reading the Wheel of Time have I been so badly thrown out of a book. I just can’t but help think that Sanderson didn’t really grasp Mat as a character. The jokes felt clumsy and not really funny, the Seanchan generally felt bland and downright stupid. Meh.
Which brings me to the writing in general. Which was downright bad IMO. This was most likely the reason I couldn’t get immersed in the book. Clumsy is probably the best way to describe the writing. It was kind of something that I did expect. Too much baggage, too many plotlines, not enough time, what can you do?
There were parts I did like. I’ll be honest. When Mat got to be the general. The battles were nice, Mat vs. Demandred clashing with armies. I almost got warm and fuzzy feelings about it. I almost didn’t even mind Mat’s character being off, I almost didn’t mind the general quality of the writing, and for quite a large part of these fights I do think the quality did improve, even if the pace was a bit sluggish.
However, the parts I didn’t like. The first to come in mind was Egwenes anti-balefire, every weave has a counter-weave or something. I can’t recall anything like that ever mentioned or discussed, leading my reaction to be something along the lines of “Wait, what?” The emotional reaction of Egwenes and Gawyns death turning into mild dismay and me just shrugging them off. Not that I was really fond of either character to begin with. No sadness, no screams of joy and shouting “FINALLY.” just.. a shrug, okay, they’re dead.
The absolutely worst part was the “philosophical” debate of Rand vs. The Dark One. I just couldn’t grasp it. It seemed so non-sensical. Even kind of Deus ex Machina, what with the reason why Rand couldn’t just be done with all the BS and kill the DO. And while I’ve always symphatised with Moridin, this book just strengthened those feelings. I always had a feeling that Moridin wanted oblivion. Freedom from the endless cycle. And just for himself if that was possible. That being impossible just really highlighted to me how much I view the cosmos of WoT as fundamentally flawed to a depressing degree. I couldn’t but root for Moridin. So Rand’s victory was to me mostly well, a bad thing, especially considering how it happened. The wheel turns, and they have to go through the same things over again, while it was expected and the only way t0 really end it, I can’t really be happy about it. And really, nothing on Moridins fate? I had really hoped that in the final pages there would’ve been something, an unexpected opportunity, a way Moridin could have gotten what he wanted for himself.
So. In the end, it did go the way I excpeted it would go. I knew I wouldn’t like it. That is what I get for rooting the bad guys, Go Seanchan and Moridin. At least the Seanchan got nice bonuses on the treaty, I’m just really bummed about the treatment they generally got in the book.
It’s six in the morning, and I’ve just finished. Like many, I’m feeling sad — I started reading these at 14, and I’m 31 now, so these books (and the anticipation surrounding them) have been important to me for over half my life. I feel a bit at loose ends.
I loved the book. I’m one of those people who basically sobbed for the last 100 pages… starting with Egwene. I did not see that coming and it hit me really hard. Gah. Loved the Flame of Tar Valon imagery, though.
The piece that worked the least for me was Fain. He was set up as this sort of dark trickster, Mat’s foil, and now it feels like his only purpose was to provide Mat with something to do so that there could be a sort of Super Boy Final Defeat triptych at Shayol Ghul. That was disappointing.
I’m looking forward to reading everyone’s comments over the next days/weeks. The fan community has long been one of the very best things about WoT; I don’t expect that will change. Thank you all. :)
Just a thought, that I hadn’t seen anyone else voice. In Aviendha’s POV she mentions eating more and drinking a lot of water. Could she be pregnant already?
(Puts Hands over his eyes so he doesn’t see spoilerific comments.) I just scrolled to the bottom quickly so I could leave a comment and I can’t believe that so many have commented already. Did that many of you use undue influence and receive advance copies? Or do you have advanced curcuits implanted in your brain so that you can inhale and digest a 800+ page book instantanously? How can you enjoy a book when you read it so fast? This is the very last WOT time ever (pauses briefly to reflect on that thought) and I plan on reading and enjoying this book slowly. By the time I finish in a month or two there will be, what, a thousand comments already, at any rate, far too many to read all of them and I want to say how much I have enjoyed re-reading along with Leigh and wish everyone a Happy New Year.
To Harriet: Thank you. My dearest & most sincere thanks for allowing the completion of Mr. Jordan’s masterpiece. I feel honored to have read it.
To Brandon: Thanky you & your family for all the time you have invested in completing this work. I think you did a masterful job. I thoroughly enjoyed your writing.
To Team Light…(meant to say Team Jordan, I guess my mistake says a lot about how I feel about you): Thank you for all your hard work in seeing this work completed.
To Leigh: I absolutely loved your review. You put into words what I felt about the book. I think the people who don’t understand your review didn’t read the book, because it made perfect sense to me.
To whom ever decided to have Thom’s word choice debate: Thank you. My husband kept asking me how the book was & I couldn’t find the right words to answer him with. Awesome, perfect, heartbreaking, sad, triumphant, it was all these things and none of these things. Thom gave me the word I was looking for. The book and the series as a whole are exquisite.
Now for the book….I am heartbroken & proud of Egwene’s death. I didn’t want her to die, I wanted her to lead the AS into a new golden age. But at the same time i do see it fitting that she and Taim had to die…clear away the rubble, start afresh. Allow the towers to move forward together with amyrlins of equal status. And I think Cadsuane is an awesome choice for amyrlin.
I loved Logain’s storyline and his change at the end.
I really loved Androl/Pevara’s storyline & love story. It felt very real to me and gives me great hope for the future of male/female channelers. Though I was a little sad that androl didn’t open a tiny gateway in Taim’s heart & kill him. I thought that would be fitting.
Loved Olver and the horn.
Glad Lan survived.
Something about the scene near the end with Rand & I assume Alivia….makes me think that Alivia is Nakomi. Is this possible? I know she came from the seanchan, but could she have gone to their land with Hawkwing’s decendants? Could she be Jenn Aiel?
I wished we could have seen the tinkers sing the song of growing & have that make some sort of difference in the battle.
I’m a little sad that rand just rode off into the sunset. I wished we could have seen a happier ending with him & his women. And I feel especially sad that Tam thinks he is dead. But I understand he could not have lived a normal life if people new he was still alive.
I loved that Birgette (sp?) returned to the horn & then was born again! That was perfect & that Noal became a hero of the horn too! I was balling over that.
Speaking of crying…I started crying while waking my kids to school this morning just thinking about the book. I think it will be a few days before I fully recover.
Again….thank you to everyone who made this happen. And Leigh…I look forward to rereading this with you.
I’ll have more to say later, but for now…Mat got out lucky with his name. I mean.. Darbinda?? Is there a joke here I am not getting? Because ugghhhhh, lol.
Edit:
I thought someone said this earlier, but looking over the comments again, I don’t see it mentioned…
You could perhaps pronounce Knotai as “Naughty” or at least as something close to that.
@98 I didn’t see it as useless for Rand trying to get close to everyone and then leave them. Giving away your things is one of the things people do when they know they are going to die, and one other character does mention that they know what he is doing and that he should allow the possibility for life (I forget who at the moment).
I loved Rand and Mat’s debate as well, and longed for the reunions that hadn’t come, like others.
Loved Androl and Pevara.
My favorite characters to read have always been the Forsaken. I was a little annoyed at Demandred’s blindness to Rand’s not being at the battle, but upon further reflection, think it fits. The mistake the Forsaken all make is undervaluing the people of the current age and the Pattern’s ability to provide what is needed for balance. Demandred, already blinded to any mission outside of Lews Therin, cannot think of a general capable of matching his forces without legends age knowledge (which is true). He just thinks Rand is the only possibility.
The thing that pulled me out of the book a little was the rule of three. Gawyn, Galad, Lan. Lan is always awesome, but by being the 3rd, his victory is assured.
Graendal’s plan with the generals was brilliant. Being under her own compulsion to serve Aviendha was also a great move.
Moghedien’s spider-like personality that she was so proud of, was likewise her downfall. I appreciated the symmetry.
Lanfear seemed really weird to me. I liked that Perrin finally took care of her, though.
Waiting for my friends to finish so I can talk about it…
I’ve been reading this story for 15+ years now, over half my life, and can’t even say how terribly disappointed I was in AMOL. I’ll start with what others have mentioned, the ending, or lack thereof. I understood coming in that there would be loose ends not tied off, and accepted that. Who Nakomi was, what else Moiraine asked for in Finnland, that I can let go without needing to know. But those loose ends shouldn’t be people. I want to know if Mat and Tuon ever love each other, if Faile and Min are going to have children, what the Two Rivers will be like, and what’s going to happen to these people ten, twenty, two hundred years down the line. Instead, it was like RJ had a list of major characters and checked off “Dead” or “Alive” by everyone’s name, and that was that. The series doesn’t owe me anything, so it’s stupid to feel cheated by it, but that’s absolutely how I felt. Rand could fall off his (stolen) horse and break his neck one hour after the book closes for all we know. It was a wretched way to leave the characters I’ve been following and have grown so close to over the last decade and a half.
Second, I also felt cheated by Egwene’s death. That’s something I never thought I’d say, seeing as she was my least favorite of the major characters, but she deserved better than that. Lan gets run through, Galad gets his arm chopped off in the middle of the enemy army, Talmanes runs around for hours with a Thakan’dar wound, and they all survive, while Egwene dies from overdrawing/wearing herself out? Give me a break. And taking out Taim and a bunch of nameless Ayyad isn’t good enough, either. I don’t care what his new status is or what sa’angreal he was using, Egwene for Taim is not a fair trade, and I never got the sense, what with there being tens of thousands of Seanchan who still hadn’t seen battle, that Egwene’s sacrifice was necessary to turn the tide. And how convenient was it that all the above-the-cut talent who was killed off, with the exception of Rhuarch, was either paired up (Egwene/Gawyn, Siuan/Gareth) or romantically unattached (Birgitte)?
But the book’s biggest flaw, IMO, was that it was all doing and no feeling. Sure, someone might feel angry or relieved or worried at some point, but those emotions were hardy ever the driving force behind any determinative actions. Instead, everything over the last third of the book was motivated by survival, either of the individual or the army, and that destroys individualism and agency. When everyone acts for the same reason, they’re all the same.
This was especially pointed given the importance attached to love in the climax of TGS. In this entire book, did we ever hear anyone say the words “I love you”? I can’t think of any instance, with Perrin thinking “I love Faile” whilst being Compelled the closest we come. Had Egwene’s death come while trying to reach Gawyn out of love, it would have been exponentially more meaningful. The same could be said for Tuon returning to the battlefield, or half a dozen other events. Instead, all mention of love was seemingly purged from the story–even Egwene and Gawyn’s wedding was cut (and did her parents ever make it?)
There are other qualms I have with the book–some minor, some less so–but nothing I couldn’t have overlooked. Unfortunately, the above was more than enough to leave a sour taste in my mouth. I remember reading other fantasy series, and feeling hollow at the end because I wouldn’t be able to read about those characters anymore. This time, the hollowness is from potential unfulfilled, and smacks of dissatisfaction. Short of a Dark Tower-type ending, I have a hard time seeing how I could have been more disappointed. Like Egwene, the series deserved a better end.
just finished it, need sleep! took a couple of days off work to read it, like most of you i started reading this when it first started, at the age of 13, it was hard at first then by my mid teens, started re reading it since, and never put it down waiting for the next book, and if that took too long starting again from book one! And now it is over, i have mixed feelings, a part of me has finished with the end of the series, yet a part of me is now released from what seemed like a never ending wait for the end!
thank you leigh for the fabulous re read, and looking forward to the re read of the final book.
And also A MASSSIVE thank you to MR Jordan and MR Sanderson for what i consider a wonderful masterpiece of fantasy! Whether or not i can find a story that comes close to this for me, i do not know, but if i do not i will be forever grateful of going on this journey, that countless times took me away from real life, to a place where nothing else mattered, but that what i was reading!
But just quietly, i am a little bit sad that it has ended!
In looking back, it strikes me that my initial post was rather harsh. There were many parts of the book I liked–Thom finally being a badass again, the Roederan trolling, so many threads from the past resurfacing–but the ending and lack of distinct emotion throughout really drained the book of any momentum or goodwill it managed to accumulate. Still very grateful to RJ for giving us the series, and to Brandon and the rest for finishing it.
Just finished this morning, could not take off from work the last two days and have been dealing with the crud as well but I had to spend the rest of the time plowing through this ending, eager for each new detail of the story’s end. Yes, I can see exquisite as the best word to describe this story. Yet there are places where I definitely wanted more. I almost want to anticipate the director’s cut to be coming out soon. It felt like a great movie that had to come under a time limit and so scenes had to be thrown out or only given lip service. I will wait for the read through to comment/discuss more. I also wanted the tinkers to find the song but I thought Loiol’s song of growth during one of the battles could be the one. I liked what Gawyn tried to accomplish but thought that some where the acknowledgement of the rings acquirement should have been noted in one of the interactions between Egwene and Tuon. What can I say I have been reading and rereading this series since the start over twenty-plus years ago; longer then I was married, longer then my children have been alive and I want it to be all and everything that I loved when I first began the story. That’s all, but I am “Satisfied”. Everyone take care until the reread.
Thomas
I haven’t finished the book yet so didn’t read your spoiler review yet. I have to ask though, does anyone else feel like all the characters have become over exagerated versions of themselves. I’m glad that he took up the task of completing the series and the story is still great. But all the conversations and characters seem wrong to me now. Mat is the biggest example I can think of, he almost seems.. campy is the word that comes to mind.
I agree, it was a wonderful ending to my favorite series of all time. Still had some complaints here and there(not bad and not many tho), but nothing that distracted from the whole. My heart tho, it broke when Egwene died, she really deserved to live, or at the very least the hill that she died on should have remained standing as a monument to the supreme and beautiful sacrifice she made killing Taim. That one point is probably my only real complaint with the book.
I soo LOL’d at redarms stealing Mat’s tabac and finding the horn and squeeling like a bitch. was awesome
oh yeah best scene. mat overlooking battle ” just give me five mins alone” then proceeds to KICK ASS!!!!!
okay…that Last Battle chapter…had me wanting to throw the book across the room, stick in in the freezer, possibly scream and curse…
Instead I settled for set the book down, vent gibberish on facebook and grab the book again. My boyfriend was quite amused. Though amazed I blazed through a 900+ page book in two days (while working too!) So be forewarned, there’s some sleep madness going on with me right now.
I am sad. Sad the series is over. Sad we won’t get to see what happens next. And when did the steam wagons become reliable enough to use in transport? I must have missed that memo?
For a while though I was thinking GRRM got involved in the writing process somehow…there was a lot of me going “NOOOO!!!!!!!! oh wait, not dead yet…”
@117 pro_star re:
Hah, I had the same thought… multiple times.
Okay, so I get some people saying that Moiraine and Nynaeve did not do much in this book. That is false. They did not have much screentime, that is true.
1) Moiraine. Gets the Peace of the Dragon for Rand. Rand is walking out of that tent when she shows up. Then she does a jedi mind trick and the Peace of the Dragon happens.
She and Nynave establish a respected annoying mentor relationship, like Amys and Sorilea. I was waiting more for her reunion with Nynaeve than I was with Lan.
Then she goes and stands ready with the Dragon Reborn to ambush the Shadow and kill or trap the Dark One. Then she gets it done. Rand has here there, mostly because she will kill him if he falls to the Shadow, or at least try to.
2) Nynaeve establishes that she is super healer. Talmanes is up around and fighting later in the book because of her.
She is staying in Rand’s camp, not with the Aes Sedai. It was kind of understated, but WOW. She is firmly in his camp, no matter what waffling she earlier showed.
Then she saves the world by saving Alanna with herbs and sewing, right in front of the woman who had basically mocked her for those very things heh
Then she helps punt the Dark One back into the void.
Then she puts on a crown.
They both did a lot, but didn’t take much screen time to do it.
I’ve only read one person mention this in the thread but….
Lan BOWING to Tam over his mastery of the blade. This WHOLE time, I’ve been waiting and waiting for a description of Tam fighting in battle, with a blade, and it finally came. He was glorious. My only quibble is that I don’t think that we ever find out who exactly he was — if he’s so amazing with the blade that LAN is impressed, if he practiced with both his hands like Rand notes, if he is so good that he basically kills scores of Trollocs single handedly and brings a corner of the battlefield to a standstill in awe of his talent… I just think there was way more to him that just never got explored. Still, it just made the whole book complete for me to have Lan witness Tam’s excellence.
Gawyn was a twerp and lost my favored status three books ago; I’m just glad that his death served a purpose.
Egwene’s final battle scene was the best in the whole book although I was hoping that it would be a final showdown with one of the Forsaken, rather than Taim. Still, I get the whole “Battle of the White Tower against the Creator of New Dreadlords” symmetry of the scene and she is just perfect. A fountain of crystal, healing the cracks in the universe and vaporizing hundreds of Sharan and Dreadlord channelers? awesome.
Finally, a MAJOR quibble. Rand getting to skedaddle off into the wild blue yonder and leaving behind the women who love him and his responsibilities to his children. As he’s leaving he has this fond moment where he wonders which of the women he loves will follow him and find him. Dude. One basically ruined her legs and feet for (maybe) years and will have to shepherd the reconstruction of the Aiel culture, one is pregnant and the ruler of the second most powerful nation on the continent, one is truthsayer to an empress who will probably raze every town on the face of the planet to find her if she runs off looking for you. Um, i think that none of them will go after you. So, silly/offensive? dunno.
Overall, it was a satisfying ending if somewhat workmanlike prose and a bit of a rush to tie off most of the loose ends. There will be plenty of fan fiction and maybe even some real spin off stories that will fill in holes or continue to tell the story of the world. Still, this was well done.
Finished it – liked the contents a lot, though not the packaging.
Back to the contents, one thing that puzzled me: when Lan fought Demandred, didn’t he have a foxhead medallion? If so, where was it when Lan was healed? Did I miss something?
Back to the physical book: I *hated* the packaging. A book that heavy and with such a small font really needed to be an ebook, for my ancient eyes… Many grumbles in Luddite Harriet’s direction.
Oh, one more minor thing: I had hoped that a tinker would overhear Rand’s song in front of Tuon, or that they would learn the song in some other way.
That’s the one unresolved thread I wish we’d seen sorted.
Twenty years later, and I am satisfied with the series. For me, The Shadow Rising was the peak, and I wish RJ would have finished the series, but BS did a wonderful job with a hard situation.
This is a sad day.
Rand deserved better than the weird ending he got (please, like he would ever leave them, though it does seem he will come back? Anyway. It was weird).
Worst of all, Cadsuane being Amyrlin means not only does she have power (yeah she will whine about it but she does not have to do it, she’s just upset about having to interact with people in order to bully them), it also means that the bloody books long let’s-reform-the-White-Tower sequence will not take. Egwene deserved better than to have her work come crashing down on her. Also, the White Tower and the Black Tower will probably have a Civil War. Ultimately, this message of the series is: while in some cases the good guys do triumph, bullies win. The Seanchen are in the best situation, and so is Cadusane. Just be a jerk and wait and good things will come to you.
I doubt I’ll ever read as good a series as WoT. Even though the messages it contains about nobility, love, the nature of conflict and how that defines us aren’t unique, the characters are.
Brandon Sanderson said it, how he picked up the series as a teenager, and at that time, he loved the series for the adventure, the excitement, but as he grew older, it became about something else. I echo those sentiments.
The end satisfied me because, in this stage of my life, I understand that the series, as are most well written, truly good books, are about philosophical, mental and emotional conflict, and how those things shape and reveal who we are.
Everyone knows the saying about how it isn’t the end that is important, but the journey. Well, I’d add to that, that it isn’t the end, but the journey, and who you are at the end of it. In WoT, for me, all those things harmonize with my expectations and desires for this story.
Anyway, just my humble opinion.
I generally concur with you Leigh…so, nice review :)
I was a little surprised that you didn’t make a clever comment about the horror of Birgitte getting chopped up then the gloriousness of her returning as a hero of the horn to save Elayne.
Overall it wasn’t as poetic as RJ would have done it, but it did get finished. I have a feeling if RJ was to have written it, we would have gotten at least 1 or 2 more books. That being said, we should not understate the quality of Sanderson’s, and team Jordan’s, accomplishment in finishing this series. The book definitely had an artistic ebb and flow that lead the reader on a great, INTENSE ride.
It is a testament to the greatness of Jim’s work that it inspired such love and belief that his work outlived him. Major props to Sanderson for doing what I thought no one could.
Loved to be able to finally read the ending after >20 years of reading it, hated that I’ve read the end. Maybe A Way of Kings can compensate.
I didn’t think Mat was off; maybe I just liked New Mat so didn’t care or notice. Enjoyed his and Tuon’s interplay a lot and want some fan fic to live up to the Far Snows Dance please!
Eggy dying like that was glorious but sad. Her counter-weave was a little contrived but beautiful nonetheless.
Not surprised Lan could beat Demandred but amazed Demandred let him get that close. “No, I expect you to die, Mr. Bond!”
Disappointed that Mat killed Fain so easily but then we’ve seen other heavily-featured characters killed off just as quickly (Masema).
The Hinderstap plot was brilliant – absolutely did not see that coming until Grady used the village name.
Thought Androl’s use of the double gateway was great but somewhat unbelievable as was making tiny gateways to catch balefire, liked his by-play with Pevara.
The resolution for the corruption of the Black Tower was too understated and sudden. I get that most of the bad guys – turned or otherwise – had left but the remaining good guys shold not have been a match for the remaining bad guys.
Need to re-read it now that I can take my time because some of it did not make sense. But overall, great job!
I disagree that Mat and Perrin’s roles at the end were disjointed. Mat was forever not wanting to be a hero, this is how he would have wanted to participate in the end. Perrin was more solid (read: trustworthy for this particular act) than Mat to take out Lanfear, and the battle between Perrin and Slayer is better correlated to the Last Battle and Mat, not Mat vs. Shaisam. Mat vs. Shaisam = Perrin vs. Lanfear.
Dazed, sleep deprived & emotionally drained.
And glad for it. Half way through I was rather worried: clumsy sentances, silly mistakes, characters that that simply did not exist or were wooden. Argh. But it pulled through: I strongly suspect this happened where Jordan’s notes/scenes were more fleshed out/written in rough. At times I found myself slowly reasured, getting comfy then BAM. Back to not-quite-right.
When Elyane asks “Where is Norry?” I sympathised…greatly!
On one hand I am pleased with this, the story, the completion…on the other. There are a lot of faults here.
And in a strange way that sort of encompasses the heart of the battle between Rand and the DO…and with humanity itself.
A great ending, all in all. I think that Fain had too little time in the book compared to the buildup the entire series. It was not bad, just not perfect. That part ending to quickly. The some with the Black Tower incident.
All in all, the best series ever!
Dear Leigh,
It was wonderful to finally meet you at the book release party. I started reading my copy (thanks for the autograph!) on the train and didn’t stop until 5:00 a.m. (if not for the pesky deposition I had Tuesday, I would have taken the day to read…).
What an amazing ride it’s been. The true Last Battle was surprisingly what I thought it would be like from the moment the cover was unveiled,
the only difference being that I thought that Moridin would take the part of the Champion of the Dark, and that the metaphorical Battle would be reflected in the physical battle, mirroring that first fight at Falme.
Androl and Pevara… Made of Awesome in so many ways.
Tam, Lan,Demandred….the question of who is the blademaster of the ages has been answered authoritatively. The Trakand boys were thoroughly outclassed.
Egwene…she was annoying in life, but if she doesn’t become a Hero of the Horn for what she did, the selection process has some serious flaws.
The Great Captains…. I felt cheated that we never got to see the what they could truly do when given the resources of a continent, but the terror I felt when it looked like they were all ultra deep cover Darkfriends!
While I agree with previous commenters that too many loose ends were left and that certain deaths and confrontations we were looking forward to we’re given short shrift, overall it was a satisfying conclusion.
The final WOT re-read will be epic, and once again, thank you for this community.
Hey all
So pleased with the end of the series.
I just wanted to comment on a few posts I have read. I notice a few people mentioned they were dissatisfied with the resolution of the Dark One. They were upset that the whole thing would just happen again in the future. I didn’t read it this way. Rand sealed the bore. He didn’t patch it up or force it shut. He actually sealed it. Doesn’t that mean that the pattern won’t repeat itself unless someone does what Lanfear did and tear open the bore again?
Or is that the pattern? Someone opens the bore, the dragon seals it and then the dragon reborn closes it? Hmm. Thoughts, anyone?
@54: Which doesn’t make any sense, actually. He would have been refering to Mat’s balefire ressurection. If the link was severed when he died then, it should have been unsevered when Rahvin was balefired, as if Mat’s death had never happened. I was unsatisfied with this part, I have to admit. One of a few places. But overall, I was very satisfied.
Wow, that was awesome. A few quibbles re: if breaking the seals before “the light” would served the Dark One, why didn’t Taim ever do it? I can only think ‘for leverage,’ which he’d lose once he broke them. Also, wanted more epilogue regarding “what happens after,” obviously. Also hated that moghedien was captured by Seanchan (without knowing who she actually was, of course), but glad this is balanced by the Dragon’s side/Aiel having Graendal, with the advantage that they KNOW it is Graendal and she is under Compulsion with no reason to hold anything back from her beloved mistress Aviendha. Moghedien has already proven that she’s able to “hold things back” while in an a’dam, so I’m not certain the Seanchan would be able to get at all her AoL knowledge out of her, even if they knew to ask for it.
Also wanted more explanation re: how Rand now channels Pattern Threads of Reality (TM), or how he ended up in Moridin’s body and vice versa. I do hope he runs across the Tinkers in his travels and teaches them The Song. Also would have liked more about Androl and Pevara’s little channeling mixup when they were linked that allowed Pevara to also channel (using Androl’s Talent…) while Androl was still in control of the circle.
Hated HATED Egwene’s death, epic though it was. Though, honestly, Gawyn I was actually…not happy, exactly, because I WAS hoping Egwene would get to him in time or that Galad would get him to Egwene (or any aes sedai) in time, but was nonetheless satisfied in a “foolish fools getting what they deserve for being a Light-blinded fool” kind of way. Because seriously. Gawyn hasn’t been foolish all of ONE time in this whole series: when he came to his senses enough to go back and save Egwene from the Seanchan Bloodknives. Still, his wrecklessness did keep Demandred occupied for a bit, saving more Light-side forces so there is a bit of a silver lining to his foolishness.
Re: the old question of Nakomi, I always assumed she was one of the ghosts of the Jenn Aiel hanging around Rhuidean (for some unexplained reason, obviously). Not sure why it was ever really a debate.
However, more relevant, I think, is, “Who was the gray-haired woman Rand didn’t recognize when he carried Moridin out of the Pit of Doom and collapsed?” Was that supposed to be Alivia? If so, then, why didn’t he recognize her or her voice? Maybe this was a second ghost-Nakomi appearance, since she’s decribed as looking kinda Aiel?
I’m still in the shock of it, having just finished. So, I’m sure there’ll be other things that come to mind as the whole of it begins to settle in a bit.
Just finished the book last night, and I had to sleep off the myriad buff and debuff effects. But I feel better now..but I still tear up at Rhuarc and Sarene..AND I THOUGHT THAT PASSIONATE LOVE VIEWING WOULD BE AWESOMELY NICE!! What a subversion..
I cried quite a bit..maybe I was jaded by other works wherein you can actually guess who is likely to die and who is more or less decked in plot armor, but DAMN Team Jordan had to pull off Everyone Can Die. I liked (and hated) how familiar names got offed as if an aside. But Egwene did go off in as brilliant fashion (if not more) as Rashima Kerenmosa.
And Mat. Is. Awesome. I shared Grady’s disappointment at sending townsfolk to their deaths..and then came the name of the town..and that was a Chekhov’s Army. I DIDN’T THINK OF THAT!! And damn if Mat wasn’t just an awesomeMarshall-General. But I do agree with you Leigh that Mat’s confrontation with Fain could have been built on better..even casual mention or errant thoughts on either side would’ve been nice.
And Olver. THE KID GETS TO SHINE!! Fitting that Mat’s protege blows the Horn.
And I find it funny how Cadsuane spent much of her time outside the Tower to run away from the Hall and the Amyrlin Seat and find it catching up to her in the end..her similarity with Mat’s reaction to Offices of Responsibility was worth a laugh..
And Rand was as awesome as any Hero Protagonist can be. I wonder about his new-found power though..is it what he called the pure form of the Power?
I just finished an hour ago. Without any sort of structure or organization, here are my thoughts.
Favorite Moment: Min’s Crowning Moment of Awesome where she outs Moggy.
Least Favorite Moment: Bela’s death. No, seriously, I booed on Facebook. I’m not even an animal person, but Rand really needed to ride off into the sunset on BELA, not some random stolen horse.
Most Surprising Moment: Lan surviving his duel with Demandred. Thought he was a goner in the Last Battle for sure. I was PLEASED he made it, of course. Also, boy, TALK MUCH Demandred? There’s a certain internet list for people like you. Geesh.
Least Surprising Moment: When the Sharans came through to attack Egwene’s army led by DEMANDRED. I’ve only been saying that was going to happen since, oh, about 1997. That also made me deliriously happy because I was wrong about… well, just about everything else.
Least Surprising Moment, Part II: Gawyn. You died just like you lived. Stupidly.
What I Could Have Done Without The Most: Anti-balefire Weave. Left field anyone?
What I Could Have Done Without The Most, Part II: Faile lives? Really? Sorry Perrin.
What I Would Have Changed: I had it in my mind for a LOOOONG time that the Seals, while preventing the Dark One from escaping through the Bore, were also holding the Bore OPEN. After Harid Fel’s death, I had postulated that when Meiren opened the Bore, it was a pin prick, and the DO worried at it like a rat, making it grow bigger, and bigger.
My thought was that the Bore would close itself if left alone, like a cut that heals if you stop picking at the scab; that the Pattern would be able to heal this tear on its own. So how I THOUGHT the series was going to end (once we got more information about the merging of Rand and Moridin), was that Rand would use the Three Powers to hold the DO in place after the Seals were broken, and the Bore would close on its own… with Rand and the Dark One on one side, and Moridin, Nynaeve and Moiraine on the other. And that somehow, Rand would swap bodies with Moridin, and get to live on in secret, probably with Min. There was more to my theory, but the rest of it doesn’t apply to what I’m saying. I just didn’t like RAND sealing the Bore. He shouldn’t be able to do something like that, I guess, in my mind. Oh well. Also, it would have made sense that that would kill him. What in the heck caused Moridin and Rand to almost die (and Rand’s body, in point of FACT, to die?)
Biggest MEH Moment: Mat killing Fain. If that was how it was going to go down, why in the heck did Fain even need to be there? You could have killed him off ages ago, guys. At least have Fain be NECESSARY in some way. I mean, you didn’t even MENTION him until after 800 pages.
I loved the last scene (except for random non-bela getaway vehicle), but I really wanted to see Nicola’s Foretelling of the 3 girls in a ship happen. I wanted a much, much better explanation for Nakomi as well. The Wise ones seemed to nod in the direction of the Jenn by saying the name was Ancient. It could have been some sort of triggered projection, I suppose. But that was the single most debated thing in the last 6 books. It seems unnecessary now, to have had that scene. The third trip through the Columns could have served the same purpose for Avi.
Now, what I absolutely LOVED:
• Intelligent use of the OP by Ashaman and others
• Double bonding mind-melds (This is the FUTURE of the Aes Sedai)
• Egwene and Tuon’s separate bargin from Rand. Its a workable compromise that will eventually lead to no more damane
• The Great Captains’ plotline, and Mat taking over.
• The Shadow being far less stupid than ever before this book
• Demandred. Finally a worthy villain. If maybe a bit too talky.
• Lan attacking Demandred in the middle of a sentence.
• Brandon’s refusal to soften the Seanchan or Tuon. It’s not believable that someone can change customs that are centuries ingraned in them in the course of three months, which is how long its BEEN since Tuon showed up.
• Pg. 522: A very long two years indeed, lol.
Final Thoughts on the Series as a Whole
21 years. That’s how long I’ve been reading this series. I was in Middle School when I was handed The Eye of the World. I finished it and The Great Hunt, then forgot about it while reading other things. Picked it up again in 1994, read the first 5 books. Then I waited. And I waited again, and again, (I WIN AGAIN, LEWS THERIN!). 9 times I waited 2 or more years for the next installment. I literally had Robert Jordan tell me in 1998 that I better pray he finished the series before he died, because no one else was going to touch it afterward. I’m glad he changed his mind, and I’m extremely grateful that Harriet chose Brandon Sanderson to finish the series.
Are there things I would change? Certianly, starting with Mr. Jordan’s death. But part of the magic of a series like this is that the characters live and breathe, both within your imagination and within the imagination of countless others. The characters in this series are more alive than most to me because I got to share them with all of you, something I’ve never done with another series in 20 years. And I may never do it again.
How the story ends, the dangling threads, what I would change and what I wouldn’t; none of it is really important. The journey was incredible, and I’m glad I was on it. Most importantly, I’m glad that I was able to share that journey with a bunch of other people. So, thank you Robert Jordan, thank you Harriet, thank you Tom Doherty, TOR, Irene, Brandon, MODS, Team Jordan. Thank you Dragonmount, and the old guard from the WOT-FAQ and rawsf-rj, the old wheeloftime.com message board peeps, Stone Dog from Stone Dog’s Hold, Leigh, and all the peeps from the Bunker.
You guys have made this a worthwhile investment of 21 years of my life. No story on its own is worth that kind of investment, outside of the relationships it helps foster.
When Egwene died, it was sad but it was also AWESOME! I like to imagine Egwene with the personality of Toph (from avatar the last airbender) saying to Rand “Did you see that? I was AWESOME! ” (During the let others be heroes too scene).
Also, did I miss something? Where was Suffa? She really should have been at the meeting between Egwene and Tuon!
I started the series in 1993. 20 years. I’ve read – and re-read – the entire series at least seven times. I’ve not yet read the conclusion.
There’s something I’d like to note, though. Jim, aka Robert Jordan, is a person I would very much have liked to meet and have a long conversation with over a couple brews. Because he wrote WOT? No. Instead, because of his knowledge and love of history, mythology, religion, politics, and sociology…not ot mention his talents as a wordsmith.
No diss on Brandon – he had some big shoes to fill – but Brandon doesn’t have the depth of perception that Jim had as far as humanity and its influences on our lives are concerned. And, Jim had an explosive and select sense of humor (thus the Mat conundrum). Yet, Brandon did as well as anyone could expect. Imagine trying to finish “Lord of the Rings” had Tolkien died after The Two Towers? Personality and life experience are everything in writing.
No, Brandon is not Jim, but we can’t and shouldn’t blame him for this. I look forward to reading this last book, and at the same time I don’t. I never knew Jim, but I love him. I’ll miss him in reading the finale.
To Harriet: You were blessed to have known this man intimately. I envy you. And I sorrow for your loss. Your bereavement must be excruciating.
To Brandon: I give you thanks for finishing this project. Having said that, spend enormous time studying mythology, history, religion, and sociology as Jim did – it will bode you well. Be Frank Herbert, not his son. And drink some beers with friends and crack jokes. Remember, Jim was the “Trickster.”
To Jim: You would have been my friend had we met. I miss you as a man and a person. Deeply.
I will read the book eventually, and as with the last two books, I’ll miss Jim as I’m reading. I loved him as much, if not more, than his writing because I caught a glimpse of who he was as a man. He attempted to show us the meaning of Light.
While I appreciate your right to your opinion, Enigmoxical, I’m unsure that anyone who hasn’t met either man is qualified to judge who “doesn’t have the depth of perception that Jim had as far as humanity and its influences on our lives are concerned.” To your sentiments toward Mr. Jordan? Two thumbs up.
I can imagine Jim sitting around one day in the late 80’s thinking, “If I wanted to write the mother of all battle scenes, how would I lead up to it?”
anthonypero@136
Got to ask Brandon a question about Moridin’s soul during the book signing in Skokie, IL. I mentioned I was a tor.com reread participant. He made mention that we have “interesting debates.” I was curious as to how the whole soul transmigration happened from a standpoint of in world governing rules, but what I was more curious about was whether Moridin’s soul had survived or if it was obliterated by the amount of True Power flowing through him since channeling allows for use of the TP and is a feature that follows/is attached to the soul (per Lanfear in AMoL and RJ).
For me it has possible fun long term implications on Ishamael’s philosophical belief system (or TP induced madness) regarding his previous lives and conflicts with the Dragon.
There’s also the practical or functional in world governing rules as to how transmigration works and how it worked in this particular case. Would Rand need an empty body to inhabit in order to avoid soul bonding/merging (ala Slayer)? Do the Chosen avoid soul mingling with their new bodies because the DO has removed or eliminated the original soul? I like the symmetry behind the idea that Moridin’s soul was destroyed as it grants a last wish and anyone can be named Nae’blis, but it’s perfectly plausible that it wasn’t and he was reborn once Rand’s body stopped breathing. Although if I remember correctly, Rand didn’t “wake up” in Moridin’s body until that happened. I need to reread it to be sure.
Brandon’s reply was amusing (and this is a paraphrase). The only thing I remember word for word was his starting sentence, “Here’s the thing.” Brandon went on to say that RJ wrote the ending and there were a lot of questions that Brandon had too about how everything worked out in it that can’t really be answered. He also made mention that he had to be careful so he didn’t spoil the ending for anyone behind me in line (courteous as usual). He then turned to Maria and asked if she knew about Moridin’s soul surviving and she said no.
It was also nice to get a chance to shake Harriet’s hand and thank her for stewarding the series for such a long time, even though I had to buy a second copy of AMoL to do it. Totally worth it.
The implication to all this being there will honestly be things about the WoT series that only RJ knew and the fan base can debate ad nauseam for years to come…
@Anthony Pero:
Thanks for your comment. My observation is based purely on Jim’s writing and Brandon’s and the depth displayed by both. As a student of
History, Mythology, Religion, Sociology, Politics, etc, I recognized early on Jim’s talents and understranding of (as well as his humorous approach to) these too-often august disciplines. Such understanding frequents Jim’s writing, and sadly is often missing in Brandon’s efforts at completion of the project. I wished only to offer the young, but accomplished writer some perspective, but more importantly I wanted to honor Jim.
I finished AMoL sometime last night and I couldn’t put it down; my fingers refused to set it down. I just sat there with the book in my hands, unable to move, in a state of shock, for a good five minutes.
I’m only eighteen and I only started reading WoT six or seven years back, but Light am I heartbroken to see that it’s finally over. I can’t even bring myself to call the people in these books “characters”, it feels offensive. To me they’re Real, each and every one of ’em. It feels like I’ve just parted ways with irreplaceable friends. I can’t even imagine how the rest of you folks who’ve been on this journey since before I was born feel!
Obviously it wasn’t perfect but I’m content for the most part. I know some people got a little tired of the continuous battle scenes and some of you might have found them gratuitous but while to a certain degree it may have been a little excessive, it’s the LAST BATTLE. It’s got to put everything we’ve witnessed before to shame and it does so spectacularily. Besides, while I may feel bad for those who found the fight sequence over the top, the selfish part of me was delighted, as I live for them. Especially when they serve as a way for Mat to show his genius.
Androl and Pevara. Need I say more? I certainly wasn’t expecting to see two new badasses emerge this late in the series. Those two were my hope throughout this book. While things seemed to be growing more and more desperate these two were busy falling in love and showing the true capabilities of the Warder Bond.
I feel compelled to respond to those above who’ve written off Gawyn as a perpetual screw-up who eventually got himself killed. While he’s an obstinant tool for much of the series I actually thought better of him after his death. He tried his best to do what he thought needed doing. Regardless of the results you can’t ask for more than that.
Pretty bummed that Perrin slept through the Last Battle. It almost makes up for it when he snaps a Forsaken’s neck with his bare hands though.
Tuon… and her ridiculous names. Also anyone else a little ticked that the Seanchan essentially sat out the Last Battle?
Slightly sad that Nynaeve isn’t told that Rand’s alive. Even if she has her suspicions I feel that she above all others deserves to know. Although I did find Rand’s thought about Moridin being honored as the Dragon Reborn hilarious.
Surprsingly I feel much better after writing all of this; guess it’s closure or some such. Maybe it’s because some of you guys probably care as much as I do. Take from it what you will ^^
I frowned, I smiled and I got really pissed. So many times as I read it was so bleak, but the saying “it’s darkest just before dawn” gave me the push to keep reading. It is an experience to be relived, over and over again. Thank you for completing the series.
I liked it. Nice job by Team WoT. I especially liked Mat as battle leader, which was the highlight of the book. Lan sheathing the sword was great. Graendel going after the Great Captains was well thought through – nice to see actually effective Foresaken for once. Olver blowing the Horn and Jain coming back – nice touch. I definintely had some things that didn’t work for me but I’ll save those for other posts.
I’m more interested in thinking about what open items didn’t get addressed in the book.
-Nakomi is one.
– What happened to all the young Andoran nobles – including Sylvase and young Mantear.
– Where did the Sea Folk lady who was supposed to be with Rand at all times go?
– What was the important job that Elayne had in mind for Morgase – she appears only in a brief mention helping wounded.
– Where or how did Morgase learn Two Rivers speech in her youth (EOTW shoutout)?
– Where is Mr. Not-Appearing in this book Tallanvor? Any efforts to get the Shaido to the LB? – guess not.
– What was in Verin’s letters to Alanna, Galad and Rand, respectively?
– What is the “strange thing” about Avi’s upcoming kids with Rand – obviously (and I called it) that he’d be in Moridin’s body.
-Why is the book called A Memory of Light? I assumed Moridin or Lanfear would have a conversion, but I don’t recall anything like that happening, or whether memories of light played a key role in anything.
– Why was Talaan lost for several books and ended up with Dragonsworn at SG, and what happened to Merlille?
– Who is Miss Dragonsworn leader lady and why haven’t we heard from her before?
– Who is Tam going to end up with as his lady wife during the happy ever after section – still rooting for Leane if it can’t be Morgase (as I had long anticipated).
–
Just finished. A few random thoughts to add the the collection.
– Hated that of all the “major” characters, only Egwene dies. Lan and Galad for sure should have been goners. Lan’s death would have been exceptional. Not because I hate Lan (I love him, and love his I’ve only ever been a man” line to Demadred when the later things he’s Rand). This book needed more people to die. It’s the Last Battle! After Egwene, the next most important person to die what who – Gwayn? Rhurarc? Where’s the body count?
– In a related note, absolutely despised Faile living. These characters should feel LOSS, and it would have been so much more moving if Perrin’s decision to save Rand (and the world) while at the same time abandoning his wife didn’t get him the best of both worlds. He shouldn’t get a “Get out of Jail Free” card for this. Faile should be dead.
– Loved the fleshing out of Demadred’s character after only half a book. Sure, there had been hints about his motivations, but he was totally and completely believeable to me.
– Loved Demadred and Mat each complementing each other on generalship. Enjoyed Mat’s “Fish out of water” scenes with the Seanchan.
– Hated the lack of Fain and how causally he was discarded. It is almost as if Sanderson was writing and said “crap! I’m 850 pages in and I need to kill Fain fast! I know, I’ll write three paragraphs and have Mat kill him, all the while spending hundreds of pages on Perrin’s personal demon Slayer!
– I was ok with the whole Übermensch-ian aspect of Rand choosing to simply re-seal the Dark One. Reminds me of the Matrix: “Why do you keep fighting! Because I choose to.”
– Teared up after Tam burned Rand’s corpse. It was a touching moment.
– Loved how subtle changes in style and vocabulary helped transform each POV character. For example, young Olver said stuff like “this is pretty scary!” while more mature characters used more mature words.
Finished it in one long read and it felt like I was living through the last battle for 6-8 hours (out of the 12 hr read). I think this was a good thing.
I do get the criticism that more main characters should have died, but the problem is that so many of the core group were doing vital “fail and the world dies” things that it was hard to pick on any one other than (maybe) Lan and Faile. Lan’s character arc was about him not being fatalistic, so it makes sense that he would live inspite of his best efforts.
Many good moments and a very satisfying book as a whole. Will have to reread it more slowly to pick up on things I’ve missed, but it was worth the wait
Made me cry like four times. And I just. Yes. Not perfect, but damn good.
Re: choked up moment #2:
That’s the passage Harriet chose to read at the Provo Q&Aa, but I somehow didn’t GET the layers until this review, Leigh. I mean, the “don’t talk about death” resonated, and her readung was powerful, but finally it hit me how these last books were the unborn … well, triplets that RJ didn’t get to see released.
Oh, Harriet. Oh, everyone involved.
It’s been an amazing journey.
Sigh.
Touching on that broader discussion though: Did anyone else get the impression that Egwene had, I’m not quite sure, become the light in a more literal sense? Her body died yes. Clearly, by her convo with rand in the Pattern, her soul did not. It also did not get woven back in, but retained her identity. Its strongly implied tha thelight that burst forth from the carvern was not, perhaps, Rand but Egwene.
Is it she that is the Mirror of the DO? I know it seems like Rand is…but that doesnt quite fit. It seems as if his soul is the battlefield of light and dark, of that push and pull. The greatest of men so often in his lives, perhaps this is quite literal. Rand’s continuos disagreements and friction with Egwene, vs his running from/temptation of the DO.
It would also create a lovely irony with the Whitecloaks…they worship the Light and despise the AS, and yet it is the Amyrilin herslef who embodies the Light.
I wonder if that anciant Mantherin AS Queen used the flame of Tar Valon?
Also, did Egwene release the warder bond on Leilwin before she, erm, went up in flames? Did I miss that part? Also, how in the heck Leane get free from Demandred? I totally missed that part.
@Anthony Pero
Did you really expect every minor detail of every minor plot line or character resolution to be presented on-screen in this final volume? It would have taken at least one additional book to do it that way I guess. A very boring book.
If the WoT suffers from anythings it is the ridiculous abundance of the things you are asking for. I personally think that the series could have been so much better if it had been ~5 books shorter. But as it is… you have characters like Padan Fain that get carried along right up to the final, just to fizzle out because he has no function there.
Yes she released the bond, Leilwin offered a brief shocked face and No!
We all missed Leane getting free of Dem, she briefly thought back on it. I can’t remember quite what she said, as at the time I rolled my eyes at the hand-waveum. ;)
I can’t believe it’s over…now that I’ve finished AMOL, I’ll immediately reread the whole thing from start to finish!
That said, maybe it’s because I am at one level sad that there won’t be another WoT book in the future, not sure how I feel about this book.
Love the whole Rand storyline, totally works for me, including him riding off to the sunset without any of his women.
Egwene’s death also really works for me, not because she was one of my least favorite characters but because she was just too powerful, too forceful and too sure she knew what was right. She would have made a horrible “peacetime amyrlin” – especially in light of the peace with the Seanchean. as her interactions with Tuon illustrated quite aptly.
For those who are annoyed she is not a hero of the horn, I really don’t get why this is so insulting, she’ll probably be reincarnated as some future Amyrlin.
For those not satisfied with the body count, I thought it was impressive for Jordan/Sanderson. I mean, we are talking about a series that did not really kill off a single vaguely important character through 13 books – and now, in this one, main characters and important secondary characters dropped liked flies. I mean they killed Bela *sniff* If that’s not committment to a high body count I don’t know what is. (though I agree with Anthony that Rand should have ridden off into the sunset on Bela)
Not sure if I will feel this way when I reread the book (and the series) but something about the pacing of the first 400 pages of so bothered me. Can’t quite put my finger on it but just really put me off somehow and I just couldn’t get into it (maybe subconsciously I was refusing to get into it because I didn’t want the book to end, honestly not sure).
but I will say I was a bit disappointed with how the black tower conflict was resolved, it really felt a bit abrupt for me – I mean after all the time dedicated to the black ajah and ferrets in the white tower, I would have liked some more time in the black tower.
I also really don’t get how the glorious future Min kept harping on about for Logain was realized, he seemed really off this book – did not like where that character was going at all.
Also yeah, while I don’t have a problem with how Mat disposed of Padan Fain, I really don’t get why we had to put up with him for so many of the books if he was to only make a cameo appearance in the end.
And while Morainne and Nyn may have done `important stuff` off scene, I would have definetly liked to have seen more of them, esp. Morainne.
Seems like there were some bits in the plot that were actually setting up a new series (maybe 20 years in the future) and we know some outrigger novels were planned and were to focus on the seanchean. it’s a shame we won’t get to see that pan out.
This post has probably become wayyyy tooo long, so I’ll sign off to go back to Eye of the World now.
@KAH
I think you mistake me. Read my earlier post. I agree with you. I just asked if I’d missed it. I read pretty fast.
After reading so much speculation about how this or that character would die, I was shocked that most were left alive, but I’m glad. The main characters have all had glorious moments of heroism throughout the series. It may not seem fair, but the second string characters…they had their moments of heroism in death. The heros of the Last Battle, aside from the Dragon Reborn, will be those who gave their lives for the victory. Egwene, sure, but also Hurin and Bashere and Bela and Rhuarc and Tenobia and Siuan and Bryne… These characters who gave their lives, they’ll be remembered and memorialized in ways that Perrin or Mat or Moiraine or Nynaeve (despite all the great things they did throughout the series and even in the Last Battle), will not be remembered.
Re: Faile…
Not sure why everyone seems to think Faile should die as a trade off for
Perrin making the “right choice” of helping Rand. He did what he had
to do, even though he was worried it would mean Faile’s loss…but Faile
has been shown to be pretty capable on her own throughout the series.
Rather than having her die simply so a main character can be emo over
her death, it’s nice that they are both rewarded for being selfless
(thinking of the world before their own feelings), for knowing the other
would deep down understand if one had died, for doing the best they
could, and for doing what had to be done.
RE: Dem and Leane…
I don’t have the book with me, but I have the impression that when Demandred captured Leane he said something like “make sure you tell Rand blahblahblah” or he wanted her to send a message. I don’t think she escaped so much as he let her go.
Finally! :) Took me a while to finish this book. Lots of MOA. But lots of disappointing events also. Fain kind of died quickly… Moiraine’s first meetings with Rand/Cadsuane/Egwene kind of lacks MOA. And this really sucks more that I kinda have expected that major part of the ending (Rand taking in Moridin’s body). I really was expecting something… well, better. In any case, one thing that strike me as odd: Was Lan still wearing that foxhead medallion when he was being healed by Narishma?
@159: For my part, I just thought Faile’s death would have strengthened Perrin’s storyline… I’d be interested in seeing how he handles it. I also just wanted her gone for Perrin’s sake, lol, crazy Saldean.
@160: obviously not, lol. Good catch though.
I assume that the Rand who walked out of Shayol Ghul carrying a body was Rand in Moridin’s body carrying himself. He may not have even known that at the time, since his vision was all messed up.
I also think the gray-haired women he couldn’t quite see was Cadsuane, and that’s why she suspected that Rand was in Moridin’s body, and allowed him to just walk off. She saw Moridin carrying Rand out of the Pit of Dhoom.
I was a fiend waiting to get my hands on this final book, it was worth every crazed moment. I picked up the Eye of the World in 1991 and have waited with baited breath for every book since. It is a rewarding and at the same time a sad day now that I have finished reading it. I love Matt, Perrin and Rand, it broke my heart to have egwene die. But in an all out conflict with the Dark one there is going to be those who will make the ultimate sacrifice. I will miss these characters. I woould love a short story to show the tinkeers getting the song, rands childern, the two rivers becoming a major center of learning and power in the new age, Loail’s book, Perrin as prince consort of Saldea, I never wanted this ride to end.
Thank you Mr Jordan, thank you Brandon for picking up the fallen banner, thank you Harriet for seeing the dream complete, thankk you team Jordan for a wounderful excape from the daily grind.
May the wheel of time always turn and if the creator chooses to bless us with insight to this wounderful world Mr Jordan created we can only hope to be this blessed again.
@Anthony Pero
Ah, sorry, I thought you were complaining about things that should have been included ;-)
As for Faile, she could have died, and should have, if Jordan had not gone for the “Happy Ending” approach he used. To me it seems very strange. The last Battle ended and only one major character died. Even three that wanted to sacrifice themselves for the good cause somehow survived in a not all too convincing manner (this is true for Faile but more so for Galad and Lan). I almost think that Gawyn only died because Egwene was also dead and so noone had to mourn a spouse ^^
I sort of wish that Egwene had died earlier, and it had been that that caused Gawn to put on all three rings and go after Demandred. It would have served a few purposes:
1) If Egwene had done her trick earlier in the battle, it would have raised the stakes in the book earlier. It would have signalled that anyone could bite it at any point.
2) It would have allowed LOGAIN to defeat Taim. Logain was probably my biggest disapointment in the whole book.
3) Gawyn wouldn’t have ended as such a tool.
The other thingsI imagined throughout that maybe wasn’t the case, since it wasn’t made explicit:
Wish they would have shown time in Mayene going by much faster than even Merillor. Maybe even months faster. There was a lot of cool concepts regarding the DO as a singularity that Brandon could have explored. Oh well, it was still awesome. And if the time dialation effects were spread out over that great an area, it may have made Traveling impossible.
Finished the book last night in howling coastal winds. (Oceanside, ca. ) Was a very fitting atmosphere to read the Last Battle in. :) ..
I enjoyed the entire book start to finish. That was an amazing, epic and yes exquisite yarn that Mr. Jordan told and shared with us. Thank you Mr. Jordan.
Gawyn’s death was heart-wrenching. I thought it was devastatingly sad. To see (and hear from his own mouth) that not only he did have issues but that he was well aware of them – and unsuccessfully fighting them.. :'( I felt really bad that – always comparing himself to others – he had kind of gotten used to feel lacking and kept trying to make up for it, in the end by attempting to buy the others time and relieve them of Demandred on something that was from the very beginning a suicide mission (which he very well knew). It was sad to see him fail yet again, when he deserved some success, finally (admittantly, Demandred was a great ostacle.. (by the way Bao the Wyld?!?) And then, giving advice to Galad about Rand.. *sigh* He was .. confused and infuriating and frustrating and all these things. But in the end, he just wanted to make his life matter. Don’t we all?
Leigh, thanks for your review! I find myself agreeing with you on .. kind of everything, but particularly the lack of momentum and MOA of Mat’s final role..
As an aside: did anyone actually pick up on what the three things Moiraine demanded of the Aelfinn were? (We were told about the angreal, but otherwise…?) I’m at a loss here.
Liked the book, mostly. Didn’t like the “idiot plot” about the Horn.
An idiot plot is when the characters act like idiots (e.g. the detective doesn’t look in the obvious place or ask the obvious question; or the people for no reason don’t tell each other something so there can be a story). In this case it was retrieving the Horn. Egwene could have traveled to the White Tower and gotten the Horn in two minutes (remember that Gawyn had convinced her it was okay to sleep in a bed accasionally, so she could have gotten the Horn at the same time). Instead we get this silly plot about Faile, Olver, and an errant gateway. That was absurd. It’s the very essence of the idiot plot concept.
If you gave Androl a full circle and taught him how to make horizontal gateways, I’m fairly certain he could effectively open a whole big enough to drop an entire army. Especially if he learned how to move it.
Also, gateway+cannon = destroy waygate in Camelyn.
I really liked Demandred. If LTT wasn’t such a giant douche to him he would’ve turned out alright.
of course, you only have Demandred’s word that LTT WAS a douche to him to go on. Any thought from Rand or LTT himself could simply be humility.
I am the man who is going to kill you! GO LAN!! And very AWESOME that Olver is now the Hornblower
And you have to love the banter between Hawkwing & Mat!
Absolutely LOVED the Book!
@170
There were a few scenes in ToM, where Rand reflected on his life in the AoL. And how things might have been different for Demandred if he had shown him a hand of friendship vs. ungrateful smirks or something to that effect.
They even played into a redemption arc for Demandred learning to love again with that Sharan Ayyad, that just kind of got overshadowed by his hatred for LTT. It strikes me as odd that he doesn’t show up for 13 books, and then is the major foil for every character but Rand, when all he wants to do is fight LTT. Greatest general of an age for Mat, greatest swordsman of an age for Gawyn, Galad and Lan. And then to kill him off without him getting a chance to fight Rand? I’ll need to revisit my feelings in a couple days about how it feel. As of now, I’m dissapointed with how his character was used.
If you ever watched Angel (Buffy spin-off), remember in the last episode when Lindsay gets killed by Lorne and he’s incredulous that he was killed by a lackey and not by Angel himself? I didn’t like that at first either, but came around after a few more re-watches. Maybe this will be the same.
RobM^2 @@@@@ 147:
Not necessarily. Aviendha could easily already be pregnant from her encounter at Merrilor, when Rand was still in his original body. After all, she said in WH, “I will not drink the (heartleaf) tea myself if I—” (presumably “get another chance” or something like that) after Min reveals Elayne’s going to get pregnant from her encounter with Rand.
Just finished the audiobooks. Hot DAMN.
Points:
– Sooooo, we’ve got ourselves a Nightcrawler now (Perrin). Cool.
– I am really not comfortable with the Seanchan having Moghedien. Seems like a very big advantage to give to, well, some very undeserving people. But, on the plus side, Moghedien is a damane! And I can’t say I’m sorry.
– Spirit Wolves FTW.
– Didn’t see the Horn bit coming immediately, but I did about at the bit with Olver in the ditch thingie. And I proceeded to kick myself for it. Well played, Jordan.
– Holy SHIT. Demandred. As far as grand entrances go, that’s… well, pretty damned scary/awesome. After so long without seeing what he was up to. And then he shows up, with a continent worth of soldiers, a full circle and a fucking sa’angreal. Dude’s a superweapon. And he went through the Wonder Brothers like an arrow through butter.
– And seriously, by the end, the thing was a fricking George RR Martin book. I mean, it’s the Last Battle and all, so everything was not going to be sunshine, unicorns, and puppy dog tails but holy hell.
– I didn’t really see Mat’s luck come into play at any point, at least not in an obvious way. Which is odd, because we saw the other ta’veren’s Specials come into play (Rand’s reality warping/Song stuff, Perrin’s newfound teleportation, etc.), but we never saw anything like, say, ten trollocs coming in and decapitating a myrddraal who was about to kill him, or anything. Though the killing of Fain was, I admit, pretty cool, and I guess could count as a Special, but still. Colour me somewhat disappointed on that score.
– Also, Perrin resisting compulsion and killing Lanfear? Awesome sauce, m’boy.
– LAN. Al-bloody-Lan-muthafricking-Madragoran. Your wallet, it bears a four-letter inscription.
Finished AMoL last night. Still processing, but I loved it. Some thoughts:
There were multiple points at which I felt I could see how this book was in fact Act 3 of AMoL – specifically in the amount of fighting (beginning right after FoM and pretty much not letting up), and the Black Tower storyline. For the BT, I felt like it might have possibly been originally designed to be more directly juxtaposed against Egwene’s TGS struggles in the WT. Also liked the parallel between Egwene’s greatest weakness (fear of a’dam/capture) and Logain’s capture/partial Turning that played up his negative qualities (i.e. forcing glory rather than letting it happen organically – by saving the children).
Many, many MOA scenes/acts/whole characters:
-Androl/Pevara – But especially Androl for creativity with his Talent – also, who was he (I’ll note that, at one point, Androl points out how he’s a traveler/seeker of knowledge by nature and shortly thereafter Rand says the same of LTT – made me say ‘hmm’)
-Egwene – The Flame of Tar Valon (I loved the ‘It’s just a weave…’ anti-balefire story. Makes sense to me. What can be woven can be unwoven.)
-Perrin – Was convinced that Bornhald’s reveal re: his family would mean that he’d take Slayer and Fain (and then later I also added Lanfear to this list when he became her new toy). That didn’t happen. But his battle with Slayer was great (and something I’d love to see on film) and him and Gaul being the T’A’R guard for Rand was excellent. I think that Min’s viewing, in the end, was about the Slayer arrow and Lanfear in this book and not Dumai’s Wells. Also completely cool with Faile living bc one major theme of WoT has always been that karmic aspect of doing the Right Thing and getting rewarded for it – also exemplified by Those Who Live and He Who Doesn’t after fighting Demandred.
-Lan – Is awesome, but for all that, just a man. Malkier lives.
-Tam – Great storyline that got almost no screentime, relatively speaking, until this book was the Void/Tam/Rand one. His teaching saved the world from before the series right up to his last lesson. Let go. Still frustrated by no reveal re: Tam/Kari/Morgase’s knowledge of TR speech. Plus, Tam’s first time/second time thing with the True Voidness – it may be contradicted by his tEoTW rantings, but this made me think he was the one that actually dealt the fatal blow to Shaiel/Tigrane, lost the Void cause he just realized he’d pretty much killed a pregnant woman, kind of loses it in the snows, and comes back upon her after she’s delivered. Maybe a stretch.
– Moiraine – I laughed out loud when I realized how she would save the world: Which was, of course, coming in at exactly the right time to prevent The Fateful Accord, Part 2 (I always thought Egwene was Latra Posae reborn, anyways).
-Faile – I liked her Horn storyline, especially the Vanin/Avarine DF portions/mislead and her ride at the end. But I really like how she stepped up and owned her responsibilities re:organization/administration that she had been raised to do and had always fought against.
– Ituralde – I was sure that Bryne’s Warder bond would make him the Great General to be able to resist Greandal, so to see the Little Wolf NOT give the Compelled order just reinforced how awesome he is.
-Elayne – The only time I yelled at this book was, at FoM, when they have the discussion re: who is the Light Side General and 1) no one mentioned Mat, and 2) Rand gave this spot to Elayne. I was seriously like, WTF? Then, I realized my wrong assumptions. First, Elayne’s position was essentially Commander in Chief, not General. Second, Mat (as was later shown) is much more suited to tactics than strategy. This is not to say he’s bad at strategy, just that he’s the Son of Battles, not the Son of War.
– Mat – Loved how he ‘felt the pulse’, ID’d issue, then got made Supreme Commander. The whole The Last Battle chapter was one extended MOA for Mat. I also kinda thought that Mat would end up taking down Demandred – He’d step up to him, see Gawyn and Galad lying there and be like, “Please, dude, I beat these two, together, when I could barely walk and now you’re crowing about it? Come get some”
– Min – I LOVED her Seanchan storyline. 1) It was not, that I can recall, foreshadowed in any way which I liked (not everything has a Viewing/Foretelling). 2) It is the true closure of the Seanchan storyline, and ending precipitated by 3 characters in this book: Mat (enable Dragon Peace), Egwene (updating WT/Seanchan agreement with the ‘Free Will’ clause), and then Min (becoming the one person Tuon cannot ignore – as she sometimes does Mat – that is also bonded to Rand. IMO, this is how Rand ‘binds the Nine Moons’, not merely getting a sig on the Dragon Peace – which Tuon later reveals to be Not All That Binding). Loved that Mat tav’eren’d her into outing herself to Tuon. The pattern wants this. Also, re: Seanchan. The thing I’ve hated 2nd most about their culture was their entitlement/oathbreakers attitude toward Randland. Rand effectively counters this with his “my claim predates Hawkwings” argument, but the true value of this repugnant cultural aspect is shown in the Sharans. Without that entitlement, the Seanchan would not have returned to Randland and would have instead joined the last battle alongside Demandred/Shara, follwing Semirhage. So the Seanchan beings dicks was essential to victory for the Light. Who knew?
– Avienda – My heart definitely lurched when she killed Rhuarc. Sad face. Liked the Unweaving call back, but did think that the ‘random’ effect seems to be very pro-Light in both instances was eyebrow-raising.
I’m sure I’ve missed some awesomeness, but wanted to close on my thoughts re: Fain.
Fain was always necessary to WoT, as a whole, because he imparts on Rand the final knowledge of how to cleanse saidin (the 2nd unHealing wound). And I had no problem with Fain’s specific death scene because it’s so themeatically appropriate to have him be Tricked by the Trickster. What I did have a problem with was his complete lack of screen time before that. I always thought that his purpose at TLB would be to screw up Rand’s plans/calmness/Oneness somehow. By the time he appeared, Rand’s battle was too far gone for me to believe that Fain would, in any way, be able to influence it. So, I wasn’t bothered that his death was quick, I was bothered that he failed to add any tension to the narrative of this book.
Thank you for such an amazing story to Robert Jordan, Harriett, Brandon, and all involved. Exquisite.
Amazing book. Just finished it last night. Too many things to say about thge scope and awesomeness of MOL. I could barely read the last chapter and I’m a guy who never chokes up from a book. A fitting end for a superb series. 16 years of reading, waiting and reading this series is over. Bittersweet but it is an ending that I can live with and enjoyed.
Good review BTW.
I received the book around 1 or so on the day of release, via Amazon. I was so tempted to go out and buy it at the midnight release in Provo, but I waited. Then when it came, I waited a bit longer, I couldn’t bring myself to read it, knowing it was the last book. Would I be disappointed? Happy, Sad, what?
As a whole I liked the book and am satisfied with the way things turned out. I am looking forward to the re-read to catch things I might have missed during the speed read.
I thought the battle scenes were too damn long and too many of them. I guess I was thinking along the same line as another commenter about there being a reveal of some sort per chapter.
I knew that Olver was going to sound the horn, as soon as I read that he was with Faile and the wagon, not sure if that is an idiot plot as described in #168, but no surprise there. I had assumed that Matt had alread died, once with the Balefire and twice when he was hung, IIRC Rand had to ‘revive’ him (but the hanging was actually first).
Not sure how the whole switched bodies thing happened, period. Did Rand become the creator? Able to speak in ALL CAPS and demand fire to be? Why not just stay there and be the “uncle” he couldn’t ‘channel’ anymore….
Padin Fain, totally worthless and seemed to be just a quick wrap-up. Weird.
Alanna, why didn’t she just release the bond when she saw what was going on? Why wait for the knife attack?
I guess not all the answers can be given but I am satisfied with the book.
Lan.
That is really just all I need to say on the epicness and majesty of that man and his storyline.
He has always been my favourite, even though I always knew he would die. How humbling to realize he gets to live.
Whether people like this end or not, whether we argue over it for years to come…none of that matters. We all just need to be grateful. Jordan died 5 years ago. In another series this probably would have spelled the end. But we got 3 books and closure. Do I like everything that happened…hell no. Do I cherish it and realize how lucky I am…hell yes.
Personally, I’m just going to believe that Bela was Jeade’en reborn – she had to die so Noal had a ride when he came back.
Half way through. Toun is an idiot. That is all.
@173: I always took the “strangeness” about Avi’ s babes to be that they could touch the Source at birth. That’s what Avi saw in her way forward vision.
Was fully expecting Elayne to have her emergency c-section via Mellor as karma for her constant “the kids will be fine, Min says so”. Probably reading too much GRRM!
37. rboodle
Oh that’s easy. And yes, six der’sul’dam trying to puzzle out how an A’dam was actually chewed off by the wearer certainly qualifies as ‘Hilarity’.
—————————————————————————
Rand wanders the land, drinking in life, never staying long in one place. After half a dozen years his path leads him to Ebou Dar, where he finds a post as a butler in the Empress’ palace. Life is good and easy, but takes an unexpected twist when he starts receiving the attentions of a stunningly beautiful black-haired girl. There’s only one problem – she’s a damane.
She was engaged to be married when she was collared, and has never had a man. It’s been a while since he’s seen his own girls, and the whole point of surviving Shayol Ghul was to live a little, right? They start stealing kisses in unguarded moments, but still, he hesitates.
Then one stormy winter morning he finds a note, blurred with tears. They are taking me to Seanchan tomorrow. Come to me tonight. Floor 3, corridor B, room 18. He knows he will go – the rain will provide cover. At night he sneaks into the damane kennels. It’s dangerous. In the darkness he runs down the hall, counting doors. Thunder crashes outside. He stops at hers, pulse racing. He hesitates again, then goes in.
He rushes into her embrace on her bed. She seems surprised to see him. Something is wrong. She struggles. His hands pawing at her shirt have torn off some sort of necklace – small and rectangular and pulsing in his hand. Shit. He’s in the wrong room! Lightning flashes and he sees her face as she sees his.
It is Moghedien.
I have been reading the Wheel of Time series since I was sixteen, which means that I have literally been waiting for new installments for half my life. Then when the final end came near, I was looking forward and dreading the moment.
Not dreading it because this would mean there would never be a new installment (thought that is sad as well), but dreading the possibility that it would not live up to my expections. I have read a lot of different series in which the ending fails to deliver, which for me immediately means that the entire series becomes degraded. I almost never recommend a series if the ending let me down.
I was really scared that the ending of the wheel of time would ruin the series for me. After all, there were some books along the way that I did not enjoy that much, so the possibility of the ending not living up to the expectations was a real one. Dreading the end and looking forward to it.
It was great. I have been enthralled the entire book. I loved the way the characters interacted, and the way the book gave us the possibility to see all of them one final time. I choked up when Noal came back and (maybe even more so), when Moiraine saved the day during the treaty of the Dragon’s peace. Also Mat and Rand’s reunion was really nicely done. And finally Graendal has an awesome plot with the generals of the Light.
I liked the book, I liked the way many storylines were resolved and how many aspects from the series came back. I found the ending of this book really fulfilling (and I am personally really glad there was no “20 years later”-part). The first few wheel of time books I bought as pocket books. Then gradually I started buying the new installments in hardcover, since I could not wait to read it. At some point I replaced the pocket books with hardcover versions, because I thought the series deserved it. And it does deserve it. Thank you, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson and all the others that worked on the series. It was an amazing adventure.
Finished! And overall, me likes :)
A few first impressions and comments. I have followed this thread from even before I started reading, since spoilers never have changed my reading experience. I’ll start with a few things. More later.
– ‘Who is Demandred? He has to be posing as someone, because other Forsaken do so too!!!’
I’ve been seeing people theorize from logic like this from even back in the rawsf-rj times, and I’ve always denied the logic in that. Latest theory being Demandred=Roedran, which I also didn’t go for. And I was right.
This is where I smugly say ‘Hah! Told ya!’ He simply was Demandred playing from behind the scenes. And good to finally see a badass Forsaken, although Graendal made a good come back as well.
(This is also the only thing I was right in during the series, so please allow me my smugness for a short while… ;-) )
– Elayne and Faile: this is the first book where both haven’t been annoying me one single moment. Well done, Brandon!
– Annoura: Bringing back Galad to Mayene after he was defeated by Demandred, while burning herself out in the process is a big sacrifice. I’m not sure if burning out is healable but, if so, I’m also not sure if she was aware that being stilled can be healed anyway. Still I applaud her.
– Padan Fain/ ShaiSam: I’ve read complaints that his scenes/actions seemed to be put in as an afterthought, with too little screentime. I do not agree. We saw what he was doing at the end of ToM, and we saw from his PoV what his target was: Rand at Shayol Ghul, and starting a new base of power there. So him getting more zombies while getting there did not really need to be shown onscreen. Mat and him just never were in the same area before.
BTW, I’d have to check, but when I read that ShaiSam was the power in Fain, I was sure I had seen that name earlier in the book. It just didn’t say it was Fain there. We’ll see.
– Moiraine and Nynaeve being offscreen for so long: Once it was clear they were to join Rand in using Callandor, and I think that was clear as soon as Moiraine showed up, they had to stay at the Fields of Merrilor, waiting for when Rand would be hitting Shayol Ghul. And once there, time went a LOT slower for them while there, then it did for the rest of Randland.
– Rand morphing into Moridin’s body: This has been building up, with Rand and Moridin getting more and more similar ever since they crossed balefire beams in ACoS. I guess using Moridin as a shield/conduit for the TP channeling and Rand pushing initiated the transfer. I can live with the outcome without that having to be explained step by step.
– Rand disappearing/ Alivia: I loved how the ‘She’ll help you to die’ viewing turned out. I like how this ended with Min/El/Avi, Cadsuane knowing and Nynaeve suspecting.
Of course there are a few things I would have liked to see that weren’t there as well. I can understand they were left out, because the size of this book reaches the ultimate limit for one book.
An example would be Mat meeting his dad. I cheered at Abell saying ‘That’s my boy!’ though. Would have loved to see a meeting between Mat and Bode as well. :D
Edit: Moghedien being seized by a sul’dam reminds me of the last POV we saw from Galina…
Yeah, here’s the problem with the Moghedian thing… Egwene and Tuon begin negotiations for their own truce, on PG 474. If those are finalized the way they left it, then damane will be given the choice to be freed if they want to be freed. If this happens… both Suffa and Moghedian will go free.
Except that Egwene is dead, and I don’t think Cadsuane is going to head in the same direction, if she even gets to know about those. Cads is a harsh practical woman….
Edit: Cads was also in Rand’s camp regarding the negotiations.
Doing some prophecy review on WOTFAQ in light of some of the interestingly-fulfilled prophecies in AMoL (i.e. Alivia ‘helping’ Rand die):
Egwene’s Dreams
She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO’s prison shut…the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe….
This one seems to refer to Egwene needing to accept working together with the Dragon – accept her role in breaking the seals. I used to think this was just one of her normal ‘Rand breaks seals’ prophecies.
A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.
Egwene bonds Leilwinm, not some Egwene/Berelain connection)
A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness
Spoiler: Check the next bed over.
Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.
This sounds like a direct reference to the part that went something like: ‘the one they called king, Dragon Reborn, killer, lover, ruler…” and, subsequently, Rand becoming just Rand (in Moridin’s body)
Min’s Viewings:
(On Rand) three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it, A bloody hand and a white hot iron, and black rocks wet with blood.
Always thought the ‘bloody hand’ was Semirhage burning it off. Now, this seems like a reference to the final moments of the Moridin/Rand battle, though I’m unsure about the ‘white hot iron’
(On Perrin) broken crown, trees flowering all around him.
Never did get that broken crown thing explained (Bashere refers to it as this before the Tenobia/Bashere deaths). Also, not sure about the tree flowering. Just reference to blooming at the end in the valley of Thakan-whatever? Dunno.
EGWENE: A white flame
… *tear*
LOGAIN: A halo of gold and blue, signifying glory to come.
Don’t know why gold and blue, but his journey in AMoL was nice to see, accepting greatness rather than forcing (or taking) it.
SIUAN SANCHE/GARETH BRYNE: “When Bryne came in, I had a viewing. An aura, and a bull ripping roses from around its neck. All I know is this. If he stays close to you [SS], you live. If he gets too far away, for too long, you are going to die. Both of you.”
Yeah… That last part happened.
SARENE: “A tempestuous love affair, of all things!”
‘Loves’ Graendal. Compulsion. Yuck. That wasn’t how I thought that was going down.
ALIVIA: “Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you.” [Rand replies]: “You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words.”
‘Helps him die’ = ‘Helps him fake his death’. I did have a somewhat sarcastic guffah on reading this.
BASHERE: “And there’s something… dark… in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies…”
More Graendal, more Compulsion.
Nicola:
“The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”
A boat? World not done with battle (which, yes, I realize the Dragon Peace won’t hold indefinitely, but, still…)? Dunno.
Aelfinn:
(to Rand) “He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die.”
Interesting, when combined with statements at the end of his battle with Moridin, specifically saying something like, “I asked the wrong question. It’s about choice…” This could be explanation for the body switch (Rand chose life, Moridin chose death and their bodies/souls worked it out for them)
Elaida:
The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al’Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.”
I thought the ‘remnants’ = Elaida, but Teslyn’s comments with the Dragonsworn army about the WT being uncomfortable made me think of this. Egwene’s anger at FoM.
Rand: “That is what the Jendai Prophecy says. The Sea Folk will serve the Coramoor.”
Harine: “The Jendai prophecy says you will bring us to glory, and all the sea of the world will be ours. As we give to you, you must give to us.”
Good thing Egwene remembered the Sea Folk, cause I think Rand forgot about this part of the prophecy.
Dark Prophecy:
Daughter of the Night, she walks again. The ancient war, she yet fights. Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still. Who shall stand against her coming? The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Don’t know about the Shining Walls, cause Lanfear has never done something like that. But I did like how this could definitely apply to Perrin by the end of AMoL, which I never anticipated.
The man who channels stands alone. He gives his friends for sacrifice. Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose? What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Interesting mainly because it seems to say that the DO’s thinking is very black and white. They seem to have more than two roads during their pre-fight dreammaking. He is both the slayer (breaking the world) and the shelterer (Dragon Peace, growing stuff/The Song)
Into the heart he thrusts his sword, into the heart, to hold their hearts. Who draws it out shall follow after, What hand can grasp that fearful blade?
Seemed to be already fulfilled, but… combined with ‘slays with the sword of peace’, this could refer to the Dragon Peace. ‘Who draws it out’ could refer to Logain’s decision to save the children (peace) vs. get the Wyld Rod. As for ‘fearful blade’, ‘peace’, as represented by the Way of the Leaf, scares people all across Randland whenever they get near. This is all very shaky, but came immediately to mind on re-reading this prophecy.
There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.
First part could mean that salvation cannot occur without ‘destruction’ (Dark One), meaning this might be first warning against killing DO. ‘No hope this side of death’. Heh. Maybe on the other side, then.
There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.
Loved how this went from general ‘Fisher’ stuff to the specificity Moiraine points out at FoM.
Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late.
To paraphrase Moiraine “You do now weave the pattern, Dragon Reborn”. Again, don’t kill the DO.
Tuon speaking: “‘I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai’don, or all is lost.’ The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly
HA! Some predicted it, but I loved how Rand expressed his claim to the land, pretty much yelling at Tuon, then just goes down to a knee and says, ‘Be my ally’ while also singing The Song to make the garden explode. Found a way to kneel without bowing down.
Sorry that’s so long, but this became a facinating project, so I had to keep going.
Did anyone…did anyone get the awful impression at the end that Rand was living in a reality he created for himself, akin to the ones in his duel with the DO.
“Yes, that is good. That is what you need to do.” I assumed Nakomi was reffering to taking Moiridin’s body. But. He didnt want to be alone. Was she encouraging a fantasy of succour? Nobody else dies after this. Previously Perrin felt the truth of Failes’ death, and that he couldnt face it. After this she miraculously recovers. As does Mat. The people he loves come together, are with the one’s they love. Loial gets to write his book when earlier we had a snippet from his notes. When I read that I wept, with it’s implications that he would not survive to write it.
The Aile saying: To awaken from the dream.
TAR and the abilities to create from it.
Rand’s pipe: ” He inspected it in the darkness, then thought of it being lit. And it was.”
Mins visions always come true. And yet we did not see the three women in the boat with Rand, dead. Unless it did happen…in reality.
Oh, and one other thing:
What the hell happened to Shaidar Haran?
Just finished this afternoon, and the first thing I did was come to read LB’s post and the comments. I agree with the anti-climatic Padan Fain storyline. About halfway through the book, I started wondering when he was going to show up. Oddly enough, the moment that really made me cry was when Bela died. Really, she was always so reliable and there. Poor Bela. I’m torn about Egwene’s death, because she had become so awesome, but it seemed inevitable once Gawyn died. I knew she’d go out in a blaze of glory.
I’m looking forward to the reread, as it will help me digest everything. Thanks to Team Jordan, Brandon and Leigh for this amazing journey.
As for the Dragon’s Peace, I think including the Aiel will help to change Avi’s vision. Also, the image of the damane being frozen into inaction without her sul’dame points out a flaw in their use as weapons. I think the combination of Mat and Min is going to be have a big effect on the way Seanchan have always done things. Especially after Hawkwing’s visit.
Someone asked about Bayle Doman. I don’t think he died, just couldn’t come along with the Amyrlin and her warder. When Egwene first bonded Leilwin, I thought how was that going to work with her being married.
I wasn’t too upset about Egwene finding a counter to balefire. Perrin had already foreshadowed that with his “just a weave” comment.
I always figured Birgitte would have to die to be reunited with Gaidal. Glad she didn’t let it keep her from killing Mellar.
As for what happens in the future, the Blight is restored (no more Trollocs), the Dragon’s Peace survives, the Aiel and the Tinkers make peace with each other and the Seanchan give up slavery. That’s what I see happening, in my vision of Randland.
Bayle Domon lives. He is with Leilwin when she tells Logain Egwene’s last message about having to break the Seals.
Just finished this afternoon, and the first thing I did was come to read LB’s post and the comments. I agree with the anti-climatic Padan Fain storyline. About halfway through the book, I started wondering when he was going to show up. Oddly enough, the moment that really made me cry was when Bela died. Really, she was always so reliable and there. Poor Bela. I’m torn about Egwene’s death, because she had become so awesome, but it seemed inevitable once Gawyn died. I knew she’d go out in a blaze of glory.
I’m looking forward to the reread, as it will help me digest everything. Thanks to Team Jordan, Brandon and Leigh for this amazing journey.
As for the Dragon’s Peace, I think including the Aiel will help to change Avi’s vision. Also, the image of the damane being frozen into inaction without her sul’dame points out a flaw in their use as weapons. I think the combination of Mat and Min is going to be have a big effect on the way Seanchan have always done things. Especially after Hawkwing’s visit.
Someone asked about Bayle Doman. I don’t think he died, just couldn’t come along with the Amyrlin and her warder. When Egwene first bonded Leilwin, I thought how was that going to work with her being married.
I wasn’t too upset about Egwene finding a counter to balefire. Perrin had already foreshadowed that with his “just a weave” comment.
I always figured Birgitte would have to die to be reunited with Gaidal. Glad she didn’t let it keep her from killing Mellar.
As for what happens in the future, the Blight is restored (no more Trollocs), the Dragon’s Peace survives, the Aiel and the Tinkers make peace with each other and the Seanchan give up slavery. That’s what I see happening, in my vision of Randland.
Sorry about the double post. I was trying to reply to syllabus@190 about Shaider Haran, and it reposted my long post instead. I believe that Moridin was referring to Shaider Haran when he is facing Rand, and there is a husk of a body laying on the ground. Moridin says that the DO no longer needs it.
“Sure,” Mat said. “By the way, I saved Moirane. Chew on that as you try to decide which of the two of us is winning.” Finally Mat is back in this book!
I thought it was well done. Very satisfying. I thought the balance between Perrin and Mat was actually very close. Considering all of Mat’s generaling, the on screen time was pretty close.
Fain did add a moment of suspense with the mist coming back, but really, the wacko was just dispactched pretty darned easily once they came face to face. I was fine with that. Everything didn’t need to be an epic struggle. Nice to have something go easily for once. And I thought the scene was good. The “trick” then the dagger disolving.
Good stuff.
I try not to be irritated by some of the comments above. I suppose people don’t have to like it. LB’s review was great! (as long as you read both parts!) Some of the posts though, just sounded mean. I feel kinda defensive, like “your too stupid to understand it then, frickin’ moron”. But I know everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Even if it’s wrong.
After more than 20 years of reading I am sad but satisfied with the series ending.
As far as the book goes, I think it went the way it was supposed to go. Obviously a decision was made to include as many POV characters and close as many plot and characters arches as possible. A few were left open most of those were related to events that could happen after the the Last Battle. (Nakomi, Seanchan, etc).
This decision gave the book a massive epic feeling. It was almost like reading an Steven Erickson’s Malazan book, but one in which you care about the characters and the plots are clear.
Obviously this came at a price and that was the overall lack of intimacy with the characters and subsequently reduction of emotional punch. In spite of this there were several touching moments and a few tears were shed.
I believe the decision to write it this way was the correct one. There was no way you could have the same type of personal approach to write this book as the earlier ones in the series. Not once the story expanded after book 3 and especially after it expanded again after book 5 or 6 .
Overall this is my favorite series and for me the ending did it justice.
I wish to extend my humble and heartfelt thanks, to everyone who contributed to the completion of what must now be considered the defining fantasy story of modern literature.
To Robert Jordan
To Harriet McDougal
To Brandon Sanderson
To Tor Books
To Team Jordan
The journey was worth the effort.
Leigh, thank you for the re-read, the reviews, and what they represent, and for your diligence and consistence in providing them as you do.
I will reserve this space for expanded comments when I am able to take the time. For now, I am saddened that the truly central point to the entire saga seems to have escaped the notice of so many readers. The reason why it would be wrong for Rand to eliminate the dark one.
Choice.
Humanity without choice is hollow; empty. Without choice there is no love, no glory, no redemption, no compassion. There would be something worse than oblivion, to any who were able to notice.
Choices such as Logain helping to save innocents instead of reaching for his own power.
Choices such as Annoura destroying her ability to channel to bring Galad to Healing.
Choices such as Faile drawing away the Trollocs to give Olver a chance to get the Horn safely to Merrilor.
One of the things that Robert Jordan said time and time again was that he intended to leave numerous subplots unresolved, because it was more real. This is genius. Real life doesn’t show us the back-story or the resolution of everything we experience or witness. Does Moghedien ever get recognized? How does Aviendha handle her new pet, Hessalam? Do the White and Black Towers unify under the leadership of Logain and Cadsuane? Where did Tinna come from?
Clearly, there will not be answers for those things, and that is well. Knowing any of those things doesn’t change what is important. I’m more focused on things like recognizing that in most cases, where people on the side of the Light failed, it was because men and women stopped working together. Gawyn and Egwene, Siuan and Bryne, each pair should have remained together. In most cases, when someone on the side of the Light tried to operate independently, the outcome was bad, or not as good as possible. The main exception to that being Mat taking supreme control of the war, which was handled excellently.
Several commentors think that Logain was a worse character than he had previously been. This is inaccurate. He has always been this guy. Perhaps a reader’s perception is colored by awareness of Min’s viewing, and is so expecting him to become a super good guy, that it feels wrong when he isn’t. But he was always selfish and grandiose. His desire to be uber-powerful is a different matter, however. That is borne of his multiple cases of captivity; first in the Tower, gentled, then semi-captive in Salidar, then Healed and sent away to join the Black Tower, and finally the capture by Taim and attempt to Turn him. This has damaged his mind to the point that his primary objective is preventing anyone else from ever taking his freedom away again. Certainly he would have still had a touch of taint madness, and however that had manifested itself. But it seemingly all washed away when he realized that people were blessing him for saving the innocents.
I am not of the opinion that Fain’s buildup was lacking. Sometimes you spend all night trying to swat that one noisy little mosquito, and another time you snipe a rattlesnake with a .22 and it takes all of one minute. Fain’s combined powers/abilities could easily have wrecked everything, and there wasn’t a person in the area of Shayol Ghul who could stand near him while he was wielding mashadar. There’s no situation where a protracted fight against him was viable. He had to fall to a sneak-attack of some sort. I see no real need to force a “balance” of screen time between that and Perrin’s fight with Slayer. Especially given Mat’s screen time as Prince of the Ravens, and as Supreme Allied Commander of the Light.
Cadsuane. Hmm, everyone seems to have wanted her dead. Well, don’t worry, she doesn’t have long left at best, given the Binder-induced cap on her life. Also, we all presume that she ends up being Amyrlin. Last I checked she was still saying no. Maybe they’ll fetch Sorilea to get her in line.
Rand’s agreement with Tuon. I waited, but nobody else (and I truly expected Leigh to see it, but her blinders were on good and tight) recognized that Lincoln parallel. In his 1862 letter to Horace Greeley, the Editor-in Chief of the New York Tribune (later the Times) Lincoln made clear his determination to serve his duty first:
This is what Rand did. To advance the goal of saving humanity, he permitted the status quo to remain, because without saving humanity being the only priority, everything else is ruined, and nobody is free. The later agreement between Fortuona and Egwene improves things drastically, though the Seanchan will certainly reneg on much of the spirit of that deal, as could be seen by those who captured Moghedien. The deal didn’t specify Aes Sedai as the only exemption to collaring, and yet they claimed she was fair game because she didn’t wear the Great Serpent ring.
Squeezing in a few lines to say that Gawyn’s attack on Demandred wasn’t stupid. I get it that many readers can’t stand him, consider him an idiot. But he’s the guy who beat three Seanchan assassins who were wearing a virtual cloaking device, complete with strength/speed/stamina buffs. He’s beaten at least two blademasters in straight up fights, and was regularly besting Sleete, who occasionally out-sparred Lan, LAN!! for goodness’ sake. The only piece of information he was lacking was that Demandred was previously acquainted with the enhancements he was employing, and clearly knew how to adjust to them. That and a very long life of swordfighting practice. Still, all other things being equal, wearing the three rings was a substantial advantage, and Gawyn didn’t overestimate his own skill at all. He underestimated Demandred’s breadth of experience.
All in all, it wasn’t a stupid move, it was a reasonable risk. One Warder who otherwise doesn’t count for all that much, in trade for taking out the Forsaken who is acting the Marshall General of the shadow’s martial forces. Would you die to put in disarray an enemy army which is currently thrashing your friends and allies at whim? Gawyn would. Tai’shar Andor!
Much more to come.
Um, “too sure she was right”? “Horrible peachtime Amyril”? Doesn’t that describe the one who is now Amrylin? To a tee? The one who makes people want to either kill her or knuckle under like an idiot? Ugh.
Wall of Text
@197 Gabemar: Thank you for using the phrase “emotional punch”- I was searching for a way to describe exactly how so many moments felt to read. I completely disagree about the “overall lack of intimacy with the characters”- we have had 14 books (and some of us have had over 20 years) of intimacy with the characters.
@198 Freelancer: You expressed quite succinctly what I felt the book was all about. It certainly parallels the Christian idea that Satan is able to tempt man because God has given man that same “choice.”
While this is only my second post, I have been nothing less than a devotee of WOT for the past 23 years. A big hug and thanks to Leigh and all of you regular posters for the fun re-read that helped me get caught up for this final installment. I used to be able to re-read the entire series every time the new book was published; alas, marriage, motherhood, and a career prevented that this time around. I made it all the way through LOC and then decided to rely on Leigh’s re-read. Again, thanks a million.
A few notes:
1) Do I remember correctly that RJ said he would absolutely wrap up the series in 12 books? How the hell….Thank you Brandon for the last 3 books- I am MORE THAN HAPPY with my precious.
2) Someone else (Tektonica?) mentioned above the issue with “Egwene is dead” catching her eye as she turned the page. It happened to me too. I felt like someone had punched me in the stomach, and then had to read the next page and a half already knowing she was going to die. Her blaze of glory was magnificent and perfect, though I loved her throughout the series.
3) Mat’s build up was killing me up until he stripped off that dorky ass Seanchan battle gown. He probably looked like Osho. I felt like no one was taking him seriously at that point and hello? Most Badass General and he wasn’t in charge from the get-go? Its like he was an afterthought to the other characters. Why weren’t Bashere and Lan looking everywhere for him? Well, I guess we know now why Bashere wasn’t looking for him…. Anyway, when Mat stripped down and put on his old coat I shouted “FINALLY!” and made my husband jump. (He also kept commenting how I would go from crying on one page to laughing out loud on the next). Also- I was pronouncing Knotai as “Know-tie” and didn’t mind the sound of it at all.
4) Moiraine and Nynaeve: They HAD to be the ones to accompany Rand because they were the ones he trusted most- to link with, to be able to withstand the magnitude of the fight, and to do the right thing should it become necessary. Their purpose was so great that their physical inaction was irrelevant. Besides, Thom came along with Moiraine and we got a lovely little snippet of his bad-assery when we saw his Little Hidden Pile of Bodies. Good thing he was there.
5) Bao the Wyld blew my mind. I want to know so much more about the Sharans and the prophecies that led them to willingly fight alongside Trollocs. Demandred’s conversation with his new Sharan beloved led me to believe that they didn’t know they were the bad guys until they showed up to the fight. And after they figured it out, they stayed. Must be some serious prophecy. Oh- was I the only one who wanted Demandred to end up with the copy of Mat’s medallion that rendered the wearer unable to channel? Could have been an interesting moment.
6) Fain/Shaisam: By the time he had showed up, Rand had already brought us to the understanding that evil forces weren’t as all-powerful as they believed themselves to be. I though Mat’s mini-climax with Fain was a perfect cherry on top of that little sundae. Why give Fain more attention after we just saw how beautifully Rand’s conflict with the DO concluded? Just because he had given himself a new name? Puh-lease. Squish, you puny ant.
7) One last thought on the True Power: Has anyone else ever given any thought to this- the True Source gives us the One Power (Saidar and Saidin) but the DO’s essence is called the True Power? WTH? Perhaps this power belonging to him was just another one of his Lies. How else could it have been used against him? I think this bears more discussion.
Exquisite is a nice word, but I prefer Ineffable. My nerves are frayed, my eyes are red, I’m exhausted. I feel like I have lost several dear friends. But I am oh so grateful to RJ, BS, Harriet and all others for sharing with me the Last Battle in High Chant.
I read The Eye of the World sometime in 1990 and I could never have guessed the journey I started 23 years ago. I mourned the loss of RJ and feared that I’d never see my beloved series come to its conclusion, I was somewhat skeptical of the Brandon Sanderson take-over of the series but after the first chapter of A Gathering Storm I was hooked. Brandon breathed new life into the series and I once again found myself breathing hard at the end of a chapter. I can honestly say that A Memory of Light was one of the most enjoyably reads of my life, and I think Brandon did a tremendous job bringing all the various threads together to finish this series. It was a masterful effort and I for one want to say Thank You to Brandon Sanderson and the Team at TOR who have carried this series all these years, Thank you for taking an 11 year old boy on an epic journey to adulthood.
Farstrider @200
I still plan to use my previous comment for expansion, but I’ll open a new one to respond.
Regarding the True Power, I’m fairly confident in saying that’s a name given by the dark one himself. If he thinks that he’s the only honesty that world has ever known, he’d do exactly that, pretending to one-up the Creator, and who would say otherwise?
As for it being used against him, I was very pleased with the mechanics of that. I had always hated the idea of Rand using the True Power to fight evil. Well, he did, but indirectly, and that is fine by me.
First off, it was Moridin channeling it through Callandor, so Rand didn’t suffer any effect of it, as he was weaving it through a link.
Second, because of Moridin’s explicit permission to use it, that I am still certain Rand never had, if using it at Shayol Ghul was going to hurt anyone it would have only been Moridin.
Last, once the massive flow of it via Callandor was going, it was used not precisely as a weapon against the Dark One. At first, before Rand realized what not to do, it was being used to pull him out of the prison. Then, it was being used as a temporary barrier to protect saidar & saidin while he wove the perfect repair. Many people believed that was what would happen, but believed that Rand would channel both Powers. I couldn’t accept that as fitting to the morality of the story. This worked.
It also burned the ability to channel out of Moridin’s body.
I was definetely expecting Egwene to do something incredible after Gawyns death and it reminds me of the last queen of Manetheren who pulled a similar trick destroying dreadlords taking herself out with them.
Glad to see that I wasn’t the only one who actually shed a tear when Bela died. And I NEVER cry at movies, tv shows, books, etc.
I cried for a fictional horse.
This was truly Epic.
Now we all have to do what Tam taught Rand “Let go”
Overall as far a huge apocalyptic finishes go I can’t complain.
I echo many others that Padan Fain seemed to really be a throw away after all this time.
My absolute favorite Mat line/interaction in the whole book was a toss up between Mat and Rand’s game of one up in the garden OR Mat’s note to Galad when he sent him the Medallion and told him if he ran into anyone with a quarterstaff he should have his friends handle them.
I love that in the middle of the last battle Mat still had time to remind Galad that he kicked his ass.
@@@@@ 187 & 188
My reading of the Egwene-Tuon damane compromise was not so much that existing damane would be freed if they asked but that when new chanellers were discovered they would be given the choice of being collared or leaving seanchean lands.
I finished AMoL about an hour ago. The ending – OK, an ending; there are no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time, etc. – of a journey that began for me twenty years ago. A journey along a pathway that I’ll likely return to over and over again in years to come, like visiting an old friend.
Wow. Just…wow. I’m totally blown away.
I keep seeing complaints in the comments about how this or that aspect of AMoL didn’t work for somebody. Well, as the old Russian proverb goes, “Better is the enemy of good enough.” And AMoL – the entire three-book cycle; not just this final book itself – was more than “good enough,” especially given all the plotlines left unresolved by RJ’s untimely death. Brandon Sanderson, you done good.
I’ll likely be re-reading this one again very soon, but for now here’s my initial impressions:
–No coddling the cast of characters here; there’s enough blood and death to sicken George R.R. Martin.
–Talmanes was just awesome. “Dreadbane,” indeed. And the whole “peek-a-boo” thing later on with cannon and gateways…bwahaha.
–Androl was awesomeness SQUARED, both on his own and in combination with Pevara. You just knew Taim’s guys were making a mistake picking on him…and one of my favorite parts of the book was Androl actually overcoming the dreamspike (and his own taint-caused madness) to deflect Taim’s first blast of balefire before Perrin actually switched the thing off.
Right before Androl then caused the Dreadlords to shoot themselves in the back with clever use of gateways…and then dropped the floor out from under the survivors. “Pageboy,” huh? Bwahaha, again.
And the “lava fire hose.” Bwahaha, cubed.
(I was also remembering Seaine Sedai’s observation of Pevara from a couple of books ago, where she recalled that Pevara joined the Red Ajah because she thought her best chance of finding Darkfriends was by hunting male channelers. Talk about getting what you wished for…!)
(Also, as for Logain’s newfound dickery: Between getting both personally tortured, and experiencing the horrors of Toveine being forcibly turned to the Shadow through the 13X13 trick while she was telepathically LINKED to him…Holy crap.)
–The various scenes where Rand is basically saying goodbye to his friends and family before going to face the Dark One were particularly poignant, especially the sparring match with Tam and Tam’s final, most important, lesson to his son. Glad we finally got to see Tam in action as a true blademaster. Tai’shar Manetheren, indeed.
(Except for the impromptu bragging contest between Mat and Rand in Ebou Dar, which had me both laughing and facepalming myself at the same time. I’m not sure which had me laughing/groaning harder: Mat and Rand’s juvenile behavior, or Tuon and Karede totally losing their s**t at facing the Dragon while they were doing it.)
–The Borderlanders grieving for their fallen at Tarwin’s Gap with laughter and jokes, in the Spartan fashion, had me on the verge of tears. And then came Lan’s final charge…at which point the gateways opened and the armies poured through to join with him and his handful of survivors…just BEAUTIFUL.
–Another crowning moment of awesome: Demandred coming into the open for the first time with the Sharan armies. Yikes. Talk about a grand entrance…!
–Although Moiraine’s no slouch in the “grand entrance” department herself.
–Thom and his little collection of would-be Black Ajah assassins, there at the entrance to the Pit of Doom. Compose a few lines, throw a knife, add the newest corpse to the pile, go back to composing…snork.
–Here lies Gawyn Trakand, who died as he lived: Impulsively stupid, as usual. *facepalm* (Was it wrong of me that I was sort of rooting for Demandred in his duels with first Gawyn and then Galad? I know Demandred is really evil, but Gawyn has been annoying the hell out of us ever since “Lord of Chaos” and Galad has been doing the same since “The Eye Of The World.” Plus being a goody-two-shoes Ken doll with no sense of humor, for good measure.)
–And Elayne isn’t much better. Jeesh. How many times during the course of this series has somebody had to come swooping to her rescue because she keeps getting herself in trouble? Is there, like, something in the water in Caemlyn affecting the intelligence and self-preservation skills of House Trakand?
(The scene early one where Elayne was informed of the fall of Caemlyn was another *facepalm* moment for me. To paraphrase Elayne’s discussion with her generals: “No, we mustn’t divide our forces to retake the capital, because that’s what the Shadow wants. So instead we’ll divide our forces and besiege the city to starve the Trollocs out, because the fast citizens have already escaped and the Trollocs have mostly eaten the slow ones. That’s a WAY better plan. Oh [expletives deleted] Aviendha, what are you doing there? Just give me a few more moments to berate my generals properly, and then I’ll help you get laid, because what are sister wives/spear BFFs for?”)
–Min vs. Tuon. Don’t screw with the Doomseer, Empress.
–Lan vs. Demandred. Really, did anyone other than Demandred NOT see the whole “sheathing the sword” thing coming? I was ready to start grieving like a Borderlander for him, laughing through the tears…and then he didn’t die after all. Which adds just another layer to the pure awesome that is al’Lan Mandragoran, last King of the Malkieri and the reigning Crown Prince of Awesomeness.
–Androl vs. Taim. Androl disguised sorcerously as another Dreadlord, swiping the seals from Taim as Taim in turn was using the Power to disguise Androl as Androl (!) so he could get close to Logain…I was reading that passage in bed, and literally fell laughing off the mattress.
–Birgitte vs. Daved Hanlon. Didn’t see THAT one coming, did you Davey?! Yeah, there’s a reason she thought she was “Birgitte from the stories…”
–Speaking of heroes from the Horn of Valere: Jain “Noal” Farstrider. “I’m baaaack…!”
–Speaking of the Horn of Valere: I didn’t expect Olver to be the one to blow it. That initially confused me. Guess I should have really re-read the whole series again before picking up AMoL. Otherwise I might have remembered a crucial bit of plot at the end of “Fires of Heaven.”
–Graendal vs. Aviendha. Didn’t see THAT one coming, did you Heffalump?! (Or whatever her new Forsaken name was. I just knew when we saw her in the prologue, still arrogant as ever despite being soundly beaten with Shaidar Haran’s ugly stick – take that as you will – that when Graendal finally fell, she was going to go down HARD.)
I’m pretty sure there’s a grim Aiel sort of joke in there about Aviendha meeting all the “toh” she’s built up over the course of the series by losing a couple of toes fighting Graendal, but I’m too much of a gentleman to make it… :P
–Egwene’s final confrontation with Taim. Whoa. Epic. Not only going out in a true blaze of glory – shoving Taim’s own balefire right back down his throat as she becomes the living embodiment of the Flame of Tar Valon – but somehow stitching the Pattern back together as the Forsakens’ use of balefire threatened to unravel it completely. Oh, hell yeah. No tears here. Save ’em for Bela, the most loyal plowhorse in epic fantasy.
–Mat vs. Fain. Didn’t see THAT one coming, did you Shaisam? And he did it with Fain’s own precious, just to add salt to the wound.
–Perrin vs. Slayer. You know, I almost kind of felt sorry for Isam, given what we learned in the prologue about Isam’s deprived (depraved?) childhood in the Village of the Damned, but then Isam had to go and start whining to Perrin about it during one of their several confrontations. (Kind of a false note, that.) Have a mouthful of hammer, Isam. Bye.
–Perrin vs. Lanfear. Didn’t see THAT coming, did you Lanfear? “Got you in a stranglehold, honey, you better curse your fate…” Bwahaha.
–Hats off to Faile. Glad that whole horrible “Fifty Shades of Shaido” plotline that she (and we) were tortured with for several books had a point after all… :P
–“Moridin,” (Rand) thought. “He’s being cremated with full honors as the Dragon Reborn.” Which also had me laughing. Pity that Elayne, Min and Avi weren’t better actors…
OK, I’ll stop here. Didn’t mean to write a review of my own…much less a novella. Besides, I really need to start reading this one again.
Or heck: just start all over with “The Eye Of The World.” The fact that we finally know the destination makes path no less sweet.
God bless, Mr. Rigney. And thank you as well, Brandon.
WYLD STALLYNS!!!
I cried about different things. The scenes that made me cry the most were when I thought Lan was dead and when Noal/Jain came back.
Lewis
When you said Jack-in-the-box, umm I thought you meant the burger joint. I was trying to figure out how that could be relevant. I am stupid.
Lewis
While I think I mostly loved the book, there were some disappointing aspects, mainly the lack of Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Min (to an extent), and the lack of a scene with all three boys together. I loved Pervara and Androl as much as the next fan did, but it was a bit frustrating to spend so much time with them and not with characters we’ve been following for 20 years. That being said, I understand that Nynaeve or Moiraine probably couldn’t have POV chapters without giving away what they were planning to do. While it wasn’t completely satisfying, at least I knew that what they were doing was important.
I’ve always found the relationship the three boys have to be realistic and somewhat sad, and that continued to the end. They have a bond, but the secrets they kept from each other, and the journeys they each took meant that their friendships were strained and fractured. Mat and Rand’s friendship, for me, has always been one of the most bittersweet and well written aspects of the series. The banter between the boys is always a highlight and Mat finally allowing himself to be pulled to Rand was an unexpectedly poignant moment in the book.
The ending scene of a pain and burden free Rand was a nice idea, truly (his not having any pain when he woke up made my eyes well), but to start with there is the small matter of walking out on his unborn children. Wondering which of the girls would be the first to drop everything in their lives and chase after him was almost offensive in that it disregards everything they had gone through and were going through. On top of that, not telling Tam or Nynaeve that he was alive seemed cruel. I mean, walking away from the people who had given everything to make sure he succeeded seemed to fly in the face of his character. For someone that had been so interested in brokering a peace that would last for generations, he seemed totally ready to turn his back on people who probably still needed him. For me, his riding off into the sunset seemed an odd and anti-heroic message to end the series on.
Best scenes (and best line), imo, belonged to Lan, a man who never turned his back on his responsibilities. I don’t think I’ve ever cried so hard over a fictional character’s death in my life. The resurrection was totally far fetched, but I didn’t even care.
I was never a big fan of Egwene, but her death also got me emotional. It was a fitting and heroic ending for her, and also a redemptive one for those of us who found her immature and grating over the years. It was a beautiful scene and I had to stop for a moment when it ended.
Like so many above, I’d like to thank Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson for bringing these books to us. I’ve been reading them for so long and I am terribly grateful that the series was completed. No matter how much griping I’ve done (or may do), I love this series. I know that in about a year, I’ll find myself thinking that it’s time for the next book to come out and I’ll probably get sad all over again when I have to remind myself that there will never be another. Thanks guys, it’s been one hell of a journey.
Just finished this morning. I thought it was a fitting climax to my favourite fantasy series.
Thank you to all involved over the last 21 years.
Two questions. How is Mat not a hero of the horn? How did Rand light that pipe?
“Uh. Is that who I think it is? Because whooooa.
Yeah, that was totally who I thought it was. And it kind of puts paid to the debate over whether it had really been the Creator talking to Rand in TEOTW, too. At least as far as I am concerned.”
Huh. Totally didn’t get this until just now, when I searched back through the book to try to figure out what Leigh was talking about.
Thanks for the review, Leigh. I thought it was great! And thanks to Brandon, Jim and Team Jordan for giving us an awesome series and a fabulous ending. For me, it was truly satisfying.
A lot of comments have brought up things I felt. I could write a huge essay, but just a few points:
I like that everything isn’t tied up in a pretty bow. It makes the book more realistic. And people die. Some things never get resolved. That’s ok and that’s life.
I loved the scene where Rand gave Tam the sword that had belonged to Hawkwing. And the aftermath. And yeah, Lan bowing to Tam? Awesome! Lan was awesomeness himself.
The subversion of the great captains was great, and gave Mat a chance to be his bad-ass great captain self.
After all the fan speculation about “his blood on the rocks…”, it was nice and mundane :)
Egwene’s death was a great death. She helped fix the world and the pattern.
Fain was deadly, but I liked how vaccinated Mat could defeat him easily.
Perrin was great. Loved the Last Hunt.
Logain gets to rise to greatness because he made an unselfish choice. Unlike a darkfriend.
Callandor trap? Brilliant! Rand managed to get his hand back. Dragon claw saa? Cool! Lighting his pipe with a thought? I speculate it’s because he held the powers of creation and destruction, and can use them if he wants. He’s superseded channeling. And he’s free. He’s had this huge destiney and burden for a long time now…
Rand’s damane clause with Tuon turned out not to be a big deal because of the clarifications made between Tuon and Ewgene.
Paidan Fain was always more of an irritant than anything else. He didn’t deserve any more screen time.
I “discovered” the WOTFAQ between LOC and ACOS in the mid-90’s. Out of everything that you can read on the internet about the WOT, the WOTFAQ was simply the most comprehensive and eye-opening discussion available. The pipe-lighting scene will perserve the need for the FAQ, even if get clear answers from Team Jordon.
Well, I have just finished the AMoL audiobook (which I had to get due to my foolish trust in our utterly incompetent booksellers and lamentable lack of the ebook) and…
I am reasonably satisfied. I liked it, despite it’s failings on several issues that were, IMHO, rather important. There was a point where I loved it, but the ending coudn’t sustain it.
I am very grateful to Team Jordan and Tor that they have finished the series and glad that Leigh’s re-read led me to picking it up again.
At the same time I feel that it didn’t reach it’s potential – which, few lengthy works do, of course.
And not because of the tragic circumstances that caused the change in authors either, IMHO.
It just sprawled beyond anybody’s capacity to do everything justice as well as slowed down unnecessarily after LoC and RJ made a few unfortunate decisions about certain over-powered abilities, such as Travelling and general power inflation, as well as gendered aspects that really muddled certain aspects of the series and necessitated large retcons in AMoL.
The Good:
Most of Rand’s storyline. I loved the insight into the very real flaws of Lewis Therin and Rand and the way they helped to cause the end of the First Age and had to be finally overcome.
I loved how most of criticisms of Rand and his plans that have caused a lot of outrage from certain parts of the readership… have turned out to be completely valid. And required Rand to rise over them.
I have heard Rand’s philosophical dispute with the DO called “juvenile”, but it worked for me, since Rand’s (and LTT’s) views were always portrayed as rather naive and maximialistic. I was happy to see that they were finally anknowledged as such and a weakness on his part.
Egwene’s storyline. Perfect. After all the outrage at her daring to compare herself to Rand, daring to oppose him? They were the 2 sides of the same coin. Both flawed. Both necessary to save the Pattern. And unlike Rand’s cheesy ending, hers was genuinely moving and poignant, IMHO. Personally, I always liked Egwene and I am very sad at her death, but her arc was magnificent.
Redemption of female channelers and particularly Aes Sedai. Basically, until this book they were, with a few exceptions, portrayed as annoying and useless, and inferior to men in so many ways. Stomping them was a de-facto required rite of passage for all important characters.
I really feared that they would remain like that until the end and am so glad and relieved that they finally, finally got their shit together, stepped up and made their contribution with cool competence and courage. And that their ways were actually shown to have some merits along with a slew of flaws that we were treated to previously.
The Forsaken were actually pretty clever and dangerous too and came up with several schemes worthy of the name, that came close to succeeding.
Yes, they all failed because of their personal forms of hubris and insanity, but they weren’t the bumbling buffons that marred a lot of earlier books.
Lan. I really loved that he was allowed his awesomeness. And unlike all other characters that should have remained dead and whose survival felt cheap, his was actually a pleasant surprise, since he seemed marked for death from the beginning. And unlike with Rand (IMHO), well, there was no thematical necessity for his death.
Pevara and Androl – seriously, they were great, separately and together.
Too bad that Logain, who, I felt, always was a dick, is the one to reap the rewards for their heroism and hard work, as well as impend the re-unification of male and female channelers that they would have undoubtedly initiated, but stuff like that happens.
It was actually rather refreshing, how Logain’s “glory” was mostly stolen.
Nice that he resisted temptation, but seriously, he is no longer fit for leadership, if he ever was. Androl is just so much better at it than he and an incomparably better person, to boot.
Olver. His horn-blowing was such a great moment… and Noal coming back for him.
Perrin and Faile – I actually _liked_ their parts! The only other 2 times I liked Faile were when she set Perrin’s head straight after his first defeat and when she brought help to Two Rivers. Too bad that she didn’t stay dead, though – that robbed their story of poignancy and grandeur, I felt.
Also, it was just too forced and tidy how nobody actually lost a spouse and survived. It should have been another price of victory, an important facet of war, even just and necessary war, to explore and remember.
Mat – I liked his storyline in this book, the way he became a supreme commander, the way he played the field against Demandred. How it happened naturally and didn’t excessively depend on his luck and ta’verenness.
I was never a fan of Jordan’s Mat or his storylines, but this worked well.
I also loved that he wasn’t the one to beat Demandred physically. Because isn’t it the point? That everybody had to pitch in, rather than a couple of supermen doing everything? Isn’t it why the Shadow failed, in the end?
Birgitte! She was such a BAMF. A bitter-sweet ending for her indeed.
To be continued.
This was a fitting end to the series, despite me not getting all of the small boons I wanted, like Nynaeve’s POV on Moiraine’s return, or Rand’s.
Egwene’s death was tragic in that I feel her legacy won’t be kept after her death, her deal with the Wise Ones and Winfinders, accepting all ages to the novice books, etc… especially if Cadsuane is made Amyrlin. Buy then this ending lets me imagine her running away that night and someone else more pro-Egwene being chosen. (Nynaeve, or Saerin, or someone else she won over).
@@@@@ 214 re:
“Uh. Is that who I think it is? Because whooooa.”
I still don’t get this one. Can you explain? Thanks in advance!
Also, who was the pretty woman, not a forsaken, who ordered Isam to kill Rand in the Prologue?
@220.
I think Lanfear/Cyndane. That’s why she’s not at the dreamshard meeting later in the prolouge.
I liked the review. Couple of questions/ thoughts on the book.
1. Maybe I missed it a while back, but who killed Asmodeon? Minor detail, really.
2. I really, really wanted a line where Mat would think for a moment that he was done with battles then Tuon reminds him that he’s now expected to reconquer the entire Seanchan Empire and will spend the rest of his life in battle and he considers running but ends up bringing the Band along with him. Something like that.
3. I liked the ending. Curious about the logistics of the body switch with Rand/ Moridin. But, I think a bit more time with the women (Rand + Min + Aviendha + Elayne) before wandering off would have worked. I know there are circumstances and probable reunions, but he did just walk away from the 6-month pregnant mother of his firstborns.
4. Overall, the battles got a tad tedious to me. I suppose it had to be done and was inevitable, but those scenes were always best when short and interspersed with Mat trying to run away.
5. Got to end on a high note – loved the ending overall.
Re Rand leaving his threesome and children behind: i think this is actually part of his sacrifice. The dragon was part of the third age, and the fourth age needs to be free of him. If any one of the three maintain a relationship with him in his new body their secret is likely to be outed since none of them are low profile women. And if people know he is around they will try and use him instead of forging their own way.
And while sad for the kiddies, well at least mom is well off and able to care for them. Maybe rand can show up as a love interest and stepfather figure several years down the line though that’s unlikely since he would have to stick to Elayne alone so as not to rouse suspicion.
That’s probably why he expects the girls to come after him rather than him sneaking into any one of their abodes sans any power except lighting a pipe. Though not stated there’s also the likelihood none of the girls can get away any time soon so I view this as another sacrifice by Rand.
Finished the book last night at 4am. Just could not stop reading. Definately a wonderful end to a great series. Not perfect, but what is? Had quite a few holy crap moments (Androl and his use of gateways—love the sheer imaginativeness of it). Finally, Perrin wasn’t boring (not too much MUST SAVE FAILE). Matrim was awesome as usual, and Rand and the Dark One brought up some pretty deep philosophical points. Something I did miss was maybe a post-script to the story (like in the final Harry Potter). Kinda ended abruptly for me. Oh well. Glad to know my quite large time investment was worth it in the end. This series is HIGHLY recommended.
Also I’m curious, how are the girls supposed to find him, did the bond somehow transfer to the new non-chaneller body? Did they somehoe rebind him while he was in recovery?
I’m a frequent reader here but rarely post. So glad this thread is here now that I’ve finally had the chance to read AMOL.
I think I need a little more time to process, but my overall feeling is one of disappointment. I don’t know if that’s because I know it’s all over – or because of the way it ended. I feel like there are still so many loose ends.
I always remember when I finished reading David Eddings’ “The Seeress of Kell” when it first came out – that must have been about 1991 or so? The “battle” was halfway through the book, and the final chapters were spent wrapping things up. I loved that. I felt similar things when reading Brandon’s “The Hero of Ages” – that everything was “right” just for a moment.
I had re-read TOM just previous to AMOL and I loved that one – felt like so many things were coming together. I didn’t feel that with this one.
But I suppose that’s always going to be the price you pay when one author has to finish the work of another. Would I have preferred to never see an ending? To be given just the words RJ had written, without the parts BS added? Of course not.
Bittersweet. That’s the word I’d pick. I had hoped for Exquisite.
How was “Moridin” able to not be under strong guards, when someone identified him as a forsaken (“we don’t know why Rand would save one of the forsaken”)? When does the body switch actually happen? At the start of “to see an answer” it seems that Rand carries Moridin (it’s his POV, so he should know :-) ) and together with the above comment means that he was still in his body and the switch happend after?
Also some questions for the people who were to the signings:
Is it already known which scene was cut and then added to the charity book “Unfettered”?
Also: will the encyclopedia include a “twenty years after” section and will we get some more closing views on the characters or will the currently unresoveld storylines stay unresolved?
Thanks! :-)
I think that the book was more than to hope for! 10 years of waiting for the end, does feel long, but i didnt want it to end really. I consider Robert Jordans work one of the best by far and I miss his presence in AoL. The storyline of the book is somehow crammed , nonetheless entertaining and eventful. We wanted the end and we got it, (although a split might have been a great idea) I would like to thank brandon for doing such a great job of undertaking such a difficult task.
/elisabeth
one thing though(in my opinion), felt a bit off was the ending. It just seemed off character. would Rand really walk away, just like that? in a way finding peace through solitude and walking away, letting go, didnt strike me as something he would do…seemed little too easy, unrealistic and less of an ending..to abrupt. i dont know how to explain it.
but..
I grew up with the series and they were a huge part of my life. I fell in love with the wheel of time the first time I read the Eye of the World. I thank first and foremost ,Robert Jordan, for creating the wonderful world of the wheel of time, and for Harriet and Brandon for finishing the epic story.
Grandel killed Asmo. She had taken to wandering halls of castles after Foresaken were killed looking for objects of power. Rahvin died, and G ran into Asmo. Then here comes the boom….
On Egwene
Reading and rereading The World of Time over the past 20 years or so, I never found Egwene anything but irritating.
So earnest, so sure she knew what she knew, so much a true believer in institutions, whether it be the Aiel way or the supremacy of the White Tower.
Yes, she could learn and change, yes, she set out from the very beginning to seek new horizons, but that underlying earnest ‘I’m a good girl’ in her character never stopped annoying me. Of the five who set out the The Two Rivers, it was Egwene that I never warmed to.
And then I turned a page in Memory of Light and began sobbing as if my heart was breaking. Part of it was just the shock, I suppose; I never saw this coming. But most of it was ‘no! not Egwene!’ As I write this almost a day later, tears have come to my eyes.
And I have to ask myself why I care so much. And I can only answer that these characters from The Two Rivers have become part of the fabric of my life and having one of them ripped away is a death indeed.
Although there won’t be other books or stories about Rand, Mat, Perrin or Nyneave, I’ll still know they’re out there somewhere growing and changing, having adventures, loving, living their lives.
But Egwene is gone forever, resting in the light.
I just finished the book and I wouldn’t change much in it. If I could rewrite the book, I wouldn’t have Egwene or Gawyn die and I would make the book longer, although this way, what happens after is ours to make in our own minds. I knew someone important would die, someone important always dies. I think Rand dead wouldn’t have been as bad as Egwene dead, because it was kindof expected that Rand die. I will anyway give this final book of the WOT five big stars.
I imagined the Channalers to open gateways that lead into the middle of the ocean and drowning tens of thousands of trollocs as the water poured out, but what Androl did with lava was close to what I though would happen.
Jsac@227:
I think Rand and Moridin switched bodies BEFORE Rand carried Moridin out. So, when Rand carries him out, he’s in Moridin’s body carrying out his OWN body, with Moridin inside. He’s almost blind at this point from the bright light, and can’t really see anything, so the narrative is intentionally vague. Its also possible that they were BOTH Rand and Moridin at that point, had merged, and hadn’t separated yet.
I believe Cadsuane and Alivia were two of the people waiting outside the cave when Rand came out, that’s why Cadsuane had a clue what was going on. She would have been the person most likely to take charge of any guards on Rand and Moridin as well. I think the implication of the ending is that Rand might have suspected what was going on with himself and Moridin, and that this was one possible outcome, and that he informed her.
I also think the Warder Bond is still on Rand. I think that’s who his ladies knew he was still alive, and were never worried about it.
I felt that it was a man’s body with two good hands who carried the other out of the Pit. I also felt that it was Rand’s body which was far more physically abused during the confrontation, making it the one which needed to be carried. But it was definitely Rand’s soul who was doing the carrying, so the switch must have occurred inside.
I also get the sense that this particular scene occurred in tel’aran’rhiod. Otherwise, why wouldn’t Moiraine, Nynaeve and Thom be at the entrance waiting for them? Instead, while nearly blinded, Rand hears an unfamiliar voice, then sees what appears to be a gray-haired woman in Aiel clothing. Well, this must be Nakomi, and Brandon has openly confirmed that she was skilled in the World of Dreams. Perhaps that is her home, and she doesn’t exist in the waking world at all. When she met Aviendha, there was great speculation along those lines, and it seems to have been confirmed.
So, in tel’aran’rhiod, a strong mind can make almost anything into reality. I have to believe that Rand planned for this and performed the switch there. Then, as he was losing consciousness at the mouth of the cave, he slipped from tel’aran’rhiod, and that’s when he heard the shouting, as people outside saw him and Moridin appear on the ground.
Read the book, read the review, read the comments.
I picked it up 0930 EST on tuesday and due to many work/life issues, finished it on a plane en route to California on Thursday. I was sitting in between to ladies that were senior to me who noticed me tearing up at one point. One was actually reading the brief review in USA today and then saw what I was reading. Both ladies decided they had to look into reading this series…so maybe two converts FTW?!
Anyway, to say I loved the book is an understatement. With only one exception, I was absolutely blown away. I felt tired reading about the soldiers going back and forth to the lines. I cried with Egwene’s sacrifice, Tam and Rand sparring, Noal coming back, Birgitte coming back (her dying was too shocking for tears). If Elayne had died, I swore on that plane, that I would never use, write, or acknowledge the number 786. That would have been more wrong than…I don’t know what. I took a 10 minute break there including a bathroom trip, some Faith No More, and some blue chips. I loved that Faile almost redeemed herself for almost three books of being annoying. I loved that Logain had to battle within himself to truly do the right thing…it fit his character and his trials. And I am very glad that Brandon did not go Martin on Elayne.
My only teeny tiny critique is Shaisam. It felt very abrupt and I think I was expecting a little more…fleshing out (pardon the pun)…of what Padan Fain had become. I had no issue with how Mat took him out though.
I loved that some of the minor characters were once again shown to be badass. Thom, Tam, Karede, Androl/Pevara, Hurin, (all the Ogier), Gaul, too many others to name.
My sincere thanks to Brandon, Harriet, Team Jordan, Leigh, Jason, and so many others for all their hard work and dedication. Amazing job. Truly amazing.
On to the comments….
First, if those that were not satisfied with the review couldn’s ask themselves maybe there was a reason for the format and do some research as to the first non-spoiler review…I have no time for your criticisms. Leigh is more than capable of handling that.
Second (had to comment on this), ChrisBeckstrand @@@@@ 74…did you actually read all the books? Does that level of ignorance come with some special hat? Without Perrin, Slayer kills Rand. EOS. and Moiraine’s return was critical to Rand…the one he failed to save came back. And as Bad Platypus @@@@@ 81 pointed out, the meeting at Merrilor likely fails without her. You can think the book was poor, that’s your opinion, but at least base your criticisms on some facts.
Brokenhearted @@@@@ 124 Cads being the Amyrlin is punishment. She has tried to avoid that role for literally centuries…not this time.
Anthonypero@@@@@139 YES…Suffa needed to be there!!!! Egwene may have said something like “We want all the collared sisters back…except HER (finger pointing)!!!!!”
RobMRobM @@@@@ 147 Great idea…Tam and Leane. And I agree, those are good questions that I wish we would get answers to.
AnthonyPero @@@@@ 154 Yes, Egwene releases Leilwin just before she goes to confront Taim and Demandred releases Leane to send the message to Rand, which she can’t do because he is at Shayol Ghul.
Syllabus @@@@@ 190 Shadar Haran was the husk that was near Moridin at the Bore…I think. Dsolo beat me to it.
Freelancer @@@@@ 198 As usual…very well said. and @@@@@ 202…That is exactly what I thought, Moridin burned out the ability to channel using Callandor and that is why Rand cannot channel not. Also, I recall our discussion many months ago about the use of the TP to reseal the prison. I was excited that I was about 33% right.
Blocksmith1,
And I am perfectly happy being about 20% wrong about it. It was nicely twisted, that while Rand did employ the essence of evil against its source, it was done using the Nae’blis as a conduit, and as describe in the scene, once the flow was turned on full blast via Callandor, it couldn’t be stopped. So all the issues about permission and access become moot. Moridin had complete access, and by that time it was too late to attempt to rescind it. Then, that the True Power was used, not as an offensive weapon, or for itself to make the repair, but as a shield against tainting the One Power, was well done.
Finally, and I didn’t mention this before, all the 20-year long concerns about calling saidar and saidin the One Power, also became moot when Rand blended them into the pure force of Creation. The only thing missing is a view of the now-shattered Callandor, as a sign that nobody ever need fear this problem for the remainder of this turning.
Freelancer…
The 33% was an estimate and I think I rounded up. I thought the scene was amazing and met my expectations. The use of Moridin as the tool, I think, was even better than using the TP. And the weaving of both Saidin and Saidar to close/reforge/create the DO’s prison (or shut him out of the world entirely) was perfect and was great symmetry.
Wow, just wow. I mean whoa. Great article, Leigh, on a wonderful book– and fun to reflect one more time… there were some things I wanted to see and knew had to happen, but enough surprises and last-second gasps to keep me hooked.
Just a few of my own thoughts to add:
1. Ogiers fighting!?!? Thrilling. I loved when Loial’s treesong made the trolloc weapons bloom.
2. Hold on, according to the Three Oaths, the Aes Sedai couldn’t have attacked the Sharans… right? Does the fact that they were Demandred’s buddies make them officially Shadowspawn? Kind of an important technicality…
3. Lan’s the man. Sometimes you have to sheathe the sword.
4. Regarding Pevara and Androl’s stedding trick, how did Androl cut the fireball weave if he was inside a stedding? Or was that Mishraile’s wrong interpretation of the stedding’s effects?
5. Good for Logain. Not what I thought, but he earned his aura of glory.
It is funny to me how we can all have different impressions of the ending. I have read many people saying the end was bittersweet. That wasn’t my impression at all. The end to me seemed deliriously happy. I was grinning ear to ear. Rand is free, he is whole, he seems happy, he’ll be fine. Beloved characters dying to me only seems bittersweet if they accomplished nothing. Gawyn wasn’t beloved to me, and I even cried when he died, even though it was more for Galad. Speaking of Galad, his face injury is funny to me because he is not vain at all about his physical appearance, but I wonder how Berelain feels since she seems very vain, I think she’ll be fine with it.
Lewis
ok, I said I wouldn’t add an epic to all the epics in this thread already, but here goes:
Moiraine – yes her role was small, but she was back, and in a sense that’s all that matters. She saw through to the very end what she started so many years ago in the Aiel War, and she gets to live happily ever after with Thom.
Nynaeve – Yes I wish she had been written better at the end, and would have loved more of her inner monologue. I’m also not sure Sanderson ever got her (or many readers, either) but she’s always been my favorite, so loyal to who SHE is. Anyway, all that aside, her moments of awesome were there –being firmly in Rand al’Thor camp, not the Aes Sedai one; helping seal the Bor;, falling back on her herbs to save Alanna and make her just lucid enough to release Rand from the bond. And my god now she gets to go be Queen of Malkier and make babies with Lan. Squee. Also, after 18 years of wearing a braid, it’s time to get Nynaeve’s new shoulder-length ‘do.
Lan – Which leads me to Lan. I always assumed these books were a long drawn-out suicide mission for Lan, so in many ways, I had reconciled myself to his death long ago. That he made it out alive… That’s one thing. That he made it out with so much AWESOME is still almost too much for me to handle. My mind went rushing back to book 2, to Lan’s final lesson to Rand, and it all came full circle in this giant burst of awesomeness, and he got to live through it to boot. And Malkier is reborn. Honestly, this was the happiest ending/plotline for me in the entire series.
Mat/Tuon – Those who think this relationship is strange must not get it: they are the only two people to successfully challenge/intrigue the other in a lifetime of looking (er, well, a decade of looking). The games they play delight them, keep them sharp; they’d both grow bored soon otherwise. Plus Mat knocked her up on the first go. Don’t forget Jordan at one point planned a series in which we see Mat and Tuon reunite Seanchan after the Last Battle, so I think there is plenty of time for Tuon to come around regarding damane, the fact she can channel, and all her other ingrained Seanchan habits, so I’m at peace leaving the two of them this way. Mat loves her, and I think Tuon already loves him, just doesn’t even know how to recognize the emotion yet. She will.
Rand – oh Rand. The last scene was beautiful. You get to go back to anonymity, you get to play your flute and remember a simple shepherd named Rand al’Thor. You get to put down the mountain. I am still confused as to how the whole transmigration of the souls worked with Moridin, but I buy it, and I see how we were set up for it from the moment the TP and saidin merged in Shadar Logoth. Did Moridin plan it? Was this his final suicide to avoid rebirth? When did Rand realize it would work, and is that Alivia or Nakomi or both helping out at the end? I look forward to exploring these questions, delving into the research and physics (metaphysics?) behind it, but I get it, and it’s the only ending that makes sense in so many ways.
As to how he lit the pipe, I’m assuming that’s his Creator-avatarness. The same power that lets him grow green grass and bring forth Avendesora trees. IMHO
Min/Aviendha/Elayne – as to who will follow Rand, I truly hope (and believe) it’s Min. Both Elayne and Aviendha are preggers by him now, and that is the legacy they will build, the Dragon’s children, one in a royal lineage, and the other to lead the Aiel, whatever they may become. But if my calculations are correct, and Rand can no longer channel, then he has a mortal lifespan ahead of him. As does Min. And provided she can sneak away from being Tuon’s Truthspeeker, I wish the two of them the happiest, most ordinary, most loving life they can have together. My guess is he drops in on Elayne and Aviendha, to peek in on the children, to give them a sweet caress, but that A and E know that and will have their love as first-sisters as the love that sustains them moving forward.
Egwene – holy cow. She’s the true martyr here and we never saw it coming. So many of us planned for, prepared for, braced for Rand’s death, how could we not have seen? I have never loved Egwene. I have never disliked her, but nor have I cheered her. She was too… pure. And yet, I am certain her actions in this life will have bound her to the Horn, and no one deserves it more. She figured out how to recreate threads in the Pattern. Even more likely, she was tied to the Horn already (wonder who she was in the past…) which explains the age old question of how she understood Mat’s Old Tongue in EotW. I hope this is the case anyway…
Siuan – Sad :( Wish it hadn’t been so abrupt, and yet… She gave her life to the Dragon Reborn. There may not have been enough in the world to sustain her in the aftermath.
The Dark One – the philosophical debate. I have to go back and read this more carefully, but if I understand it correctly, Rand wanted to remove the DO from existence, but saw that in doing so , without any need to ever fight or be strong, people become automatons. It is a philosophy I’ve long held: that good has to balance evil. To be truly happy you have to know what it is to have been truly sad. So ok, Rand realized that too and sealed the Bore, but DO is still back there? Which does open the possibility that the Wheel will come around again… But then, if it didn’t we couldn’t go back for re-reads… Or more seriously, don’t we see now that the “Lord of the morning” blurb at the back is now Fourth Age, not Third? Talk about a Wheel.
Gender – I was happy to see much of my college gender thesis came true here, that men and women did have to learn how to work together again, and only then can the wonders of the age be complete. Androl and Pevara are the first manifestation of this; I look forward to more (whether I read it or not, I have high hopes now for Logain and the Black Tower, and yes even Cadsuane working well with them). I do wish the two towers had merged. Maybe in a few centuries.
Perrin/Slayer Mat/Fain – I was ok with this too. Another, holy s**t full circle. In a sense, you got to see how Jordan imagined he could do this whole series in 4 books. Because we came so abruptly back to plot lines from the 1, 2, 3, and suddenly it all made sense. The “can’t catch a disease twice” – AMAZING. Makes up for watching Mat go through that dagger sickness. And him leaving the dagger there at the end… my man finally learns wisdom. It does make books 6-12 in some ways filler, I get that. But I wouldn’t trade all the time I have spent with these characters for the world, so I’m ok with that too.
Faile – and aw heck, Perrin and Faile get to be king and queen of Saldaea. She was at her best in this book. Her “little one…” to Oliver – break my heart.
oh yes and Olver. Never saw that coming. Ah-mazing.
Bela – sad :( But she died a hero.
The writing – Yes sometimes clunky. No, not RJ. But I got to see the end. It is enough. Let go…
Jordan, Brandon, Team Jordan… thank you all. I picked up these books at 12, I am now 30, there is nothing that has defined my life and the woman I am more. Thank you.
Took approx 3 days to complete reading …My Goodreads review was initially 5 stars but I downgraded it to 4 stars. I loved so much in this final book. I cried when Gawyn died esp when Egwene was so close. (Galad’s whitecloaks passed her in the background). The end came rather abruptly IMO. Agree that Nynaeve should know Rand survived. She would keep it secret.
I think King Roedran was Beidomon.
@202 Freelancer and @236 Blocksmith1:
IIRC, RJ stated that the ability to channel is connected to the soul, not the body. Perhaps Rand and Moridin were both burned out?
@240lburn05 – re: Berelain and Galad, I’m going to still a bit from HP. She’s beautiful enough for the both of them. I’m wondering if there are any Whitecloaks left, and if so, how their attitude is going to change now that their commander’s sister is AS and his life was saved by an AS. Looks like there are lots of attitude changes ahead for everyone. I’m not so sure that Cadsuane is a bad choice for Amyrlin. She got an abrupt lesson in the consequences from being overbearing with Rand, and she’s spent a lot of time with the Wise Ones. Plus, she hasn’t spent a lot of time shut up in the White Tower, so she’s going to be more worldly. Now that the White Tower isn’t the only power in town, it’s time to start forging bonds with the Sea Folk, the Aiel, the Black Tower and the Kin.
Rstar@241: Just a thought…..Rand lights the pipe because he is now One with the pattern. He doesn’t channel….he doesn’t have to.
More later….
First, I must give a friendly Nelson Muntz HA HA to all those who were loudly convinced there was NO WAY DAMMIT that the True Power could be used against the Dark One, even after Rand said he needed something other than the One Power to touch him with.
Second, on Fain…on the one hand, just a big nothingburger. I agree. Basically, I think he was there to create suspense. When he and Mashadar showed up at the end, Rand was still planning on “killing” the Dark One. There was at least the possibility that Rand would destroy the DO, then have to seal away Shaisam, who would then become the DO of the new cycle (note the similarity of names). There’s a nice bit of “people are their own worst enemy” in that idea that would have worked, where in each cycle, humanity creates the evil it will have to face in the next cycle. As such, right up until the end there was still more than one ending that was possible.
LOVED Egwene’s smackdown of Tuon. It’s a shame she *didn’t* put an adam on the little sadist. Somebody should.
I thought the story worked as an ending, and I wish some of the obvious ends were tied up (who is Nakomi, what did Moiraine ask for, and so on), but most of the burning questions I really wanted answers to and didn’t get are theological (or at least metaphysical) in nature:
1) Is there a Creator? Is *Rand* the Creator? The only things we know for sure that the Creator can do are talk in all-caps and imprison the Dark One. Well, Rand can do both of those, and apparently he can weave reality like it’s tel’aran’rhiod, too. (BTW, I like the suggestion, upthread, that Rand is actually dead, but living in a dreamshard of his own making. I don’t think that’s what we’re supposed to get, but I like it.) Also, neat touch that the DO just calls Rand Adversary, which (if I am not mistaken) is literally what “Satan” means.
2) By the way, Ishy insists “all this has happened before, and all this will happen again”, and at Dragonmount, Rand remembered not just his life and Lews Therin’s life, but *every incarnation of the Dragon*. So why was he still trying to figure out how to re-seal the Bore, instead of just remembering how he did it the last time it was the end of Age 3?
3) And on the subject of wheels with seven spokes, I’ve always been kind of dissatisfied with the whole concept. I was hoping, especially with Moridin there at the end, that there’d be more discussion of what the various Ages are. Here’s what I think we know. The First Age is basically us, with the divergence that it ended with the war of Mosk andMerk, that probably we aren’t going to get. OK, after that was the Second Age, which was the Age of Legends and ended at the Breaking, but we don’t know how long it took, or just how flat the nuclear war pounded us.
We know the outline of the entire history of the Third Age. Great, fine.
So now it’s the end of the Third Age. The Dark One is sealed away, humans can still channel, there are still Ogier and technology is making a comeback. So there are *four* more Ages until you get around to us? Or five, really, since we are living at the end of Age 1? Five Ages with no Dark One in them, but somehow we manage to retain at least a mythological memory of him? The Ogier die out or Translate out, or whatever they did/do? Also, along the way, we completely forget how to channel AND forget technology and regress at least to the Bronze Age? How early does the First Age start, anyway? With Cro-Magnon man? With the birth of Christ? Has everything since the Big Bang been the First Age, and the Third Age just happens to be freakishly short?
And speaking of Christ, who was he, exactly? With all the messianic imagery associated with Rand, he seems to have been an incarnation of the Dragon, but what did we need him for, since the DO was safely locked away, unable to touch the Pattern? Or maybe there just isn’t a Dragon except for Ages 2 and 3, and the entire Gospels are supposed to be myths that are actually based on dimly remembered stories about Rand but set by their authors in the “present day”? Which means the memory-fades-to-legend-fades-to-myth process takes six Ages, and the only Age that has no memory of the Dragon is the one in which he actually lives?
I was hoping for some kind of heavily disguised and metamorphic, kaleidoscopic explanation for all this during Rand’s outside-of-time encounter with the Dark One. Alas, I am left only with my guesses. Oh well.
Oh, and as if this isn’t already long enough, there are people reacting to Olver blowing the Horn like it’s something we should have seen coming. Is there some foreshadowing about it that you are finding obvious in retrospect? I mean, that Mat was not *actually* bound to the Horn because Hello? Died twice? has been a theory since at least the late 1990s, but is there something that we should have interpreted tying the Horn to Olver?
Loved, loved, loved it! Just walking about in a daze since I finished it.
As for some who felt that there were missteps or clumsy characterization; I feel that perhaps Brandon was drawing heavily on the notes Jordan wrote. Jordan may have intended to change or embellish the phrases he sketched in his outline. But Brandon tried to keep as much as the Word of Jordan as possible.
How did Jordan think The Gathering Storm, Towers of Midnight, and A Memory of Light would all be on volume?! If I recall correctly, he joked that it would need a break-through idea in the binding process!
Farstrider,
You are correct that channeling is tied to the soul, and the aim of that answer relates to a channeler being reborn or transmigrated, such as Balthamel still being tied to saidin in a female body. But that body had to be capable of channeling; that was part of the issue for transmigrating the forsaken, the availability of appropriate bodies.
But gentling/stilling/severing/burning out is a physical disruption in the body’s ability to access the Source. Rand is now inhabiting a body whose ability to embrace saidin has been destroyed. The last word I recall on authorial answers is that gentling/stilling can be Healed, burning out cannot. Too bad for Setalle Anan.
All those who think that Rand is “running away” from his three girls and his children, turn your books over to someone with an ounce of imagination. Even without considering Rand’s new ability/talent, the girls know where Rand is and two of them can travel anywhere nearly instantly. Does everything have to be spelled out in infinite detail?
Something I haven’t seen commented on here that I think was really lovely: the vignette between Ila and Raen in the slaughteryard. I think this provided excellent closure for the story of the Traveling People–with one of their elders wavering, just a tiny bit; his fiercely firm, even dogmatic, Better Half calling him on it in horror; and both of them ending up solid in conviction to their beliefs, but with just enough capacity for compromise to see the value of other paths. (And a last shout-out to Aram, a character who had it rough, that had me welling up.)
What about the Song, you ask? Shouldn’t the Tinkers have their Song? No, I think it is perfectly fine for them to keep looking. Perhaps some now suspect–and surely Rand knows–what their song is. I think that it would be sad, irresponsible even, to give it to them. Imagine if somebody walked up to a person of whatever faith here in the real world and said, “Oh, here’s the actual, incontrovertible reality of the basis of your entire worldview as well as the context in which it was originally intended.” That would probably be a bit of a bummer. Anyway, the Song gives the Tuatha’an purpose. “To seek, to strive,” etc. What would they do if that were taken away? I don’t think many of them are actually staying up nights, shaking back and forth, jonesing for that Song. It’s a metaphor at this point, and they, as most people of faith, are aware of that on some level–a metaphor that gives shape to their lives. Let them look, and suspect, and take strength from the evidence of things unseen that sprouted briefly in their world.
Another point. I’ve read some sympathy for Elan’s position–the incessant grinding of the Wheel, a desire to be done, etc. I can understand that sympathy. It’s very, very sad that his awareness of cosmology has driven him to that state. I sympathize with him in the same way I do Judas Iscariot–the terrible fate of the one with too much perception. But I have also picked up on hints that some would have preferred that Elan get his wish, that this would somehow be a truer, better, more moral end to the Wheel of Time.
I think Rand’s realizations during his struggle with Shai’tan speak to the error of that position, as indeed does the series as a whole. Cynicism is a very real result of valid feelings; nihilism is one lens to look at the world. But to me, cynicism and nihilism have always been weaknesses masquerading as strength, a sentiment and a philosophy best passed over quickly. I would wager that Robert Jordan felt the same way about the world. Hope is strength; naive, simple, light-spirited hope. Elan Morin could never get past cynicism. Rand represents the opportunity, the strength to forge through cynicism and return to hope.
A wonderful, heart-wrenching, flawed final volume to a flawed but ultimately ‘exquisite’ body of work. I will not soon forget the jolts of joy and sorrow presented in this book. Thank you, Mr. Sanderson, Ms. MacDougal, Team Jordan, and above all, Robert Jordan.
I finished reading the last book of the Wheel of Time on Thursday, Jan 10, at 12:26 p.m. EST.
I haven’t really been able to form coherent thoughts since then, and I don’t know that I will now. (Mostly I’ve limited myself to snarkiness on the reread FB group. Only way I was able to get through this intense experience!)
Wall of Text warning. I’m gonna share a couple general reactions, then talk a bit about Mat, Rand, Egwene, the Shadow, and a little about the Seanchan, Nynaeve, Lan/Tam, and Moiraine. In case you get tired of reading and want to skip to those parts. :)
The first thing I want to say is…wow. What an amazing read. What a great book. Heart-wrenching, but really well done.
Second, thanks to Brandon, Harriet, and all of Team Jordan for bringing us home.
Third, thanks to Leigh and to the Reread community. Once I finished the book, after 5 minutes of stunned disbelief that the last 16.5 years were done (I found the WOT in 1996…during Finals of my Senior year in college!), I eagerly came here to see our Fearless Leader’s thoughts. I wanted to hear her/your jokes, Leigh, and see how many of your non-spoiler review comments I’d guessed correctly, and…to be in the (cyber)company of folks who understood.
I”m so glad for this group. The Wheel of Time *has* ended. But because of this community – because of this thread, and the future reread of AMOL, and JordanCon, et. al. – because of that, I know that it is *an* ending, but not *the* ending. That helps immensely. Otherwise, I think I’d be in the throes of an immense post-series depression.
Instead, I get to come play in the bunker!
Though Bela’s carcass is kind of distracting and sad. Seriously, Brandon…you *had* to kill Bela?!?
Some otther reactions:
Mat really shone in this book. I felt his personality was spot on, he was hilarious, he was MOA, and I finally understand why the rest of you love him so much.
Egwene. I…
I’m really sad about this.
I won’t get into all the sadness right now. Some immediate story implications, instead, come to mind. I’m bummed that she won’t be the longest-serving Amyrlin in history. I’m bummed she won’t live for centuries and watch the Seanchan crumble (GREAT line with Tuon, Egwene!). I’m nervous that her moves to reform the White Tower will go by the wayside, though Cadsuane will at least be open to mutual Black Tower/White Tower bonding and has good relations with the Wise Ones.
I’m glad that at Merrilor she showed both how she’d grown and how she was still the girl from Emond’s Field. Loved her and Rand’s interactions, on the whole. Loved that they’d both grown so much, and both almost worked things out, and both brought out the immaturity in each other, and needed Moiraine to set things right. (More on that below.)
I’m pleased she trusted Mat as a general. I’m pleased our Ooh Ooh Girl got another Forsaken, and pulled out another Shiny New Weave in the process.
I’m pleased Rand had pretty much the exact reaction to her death that I did, and that her voice (real or not) helped make the difference for him. Mostly I’m sad that she got married without Bran and Marin there, I’m really sad she’s dead, and I’m pretty furious that she didn’t come back when the Horn was blown – esp. after her line to Rand about him letting the rest of them be heroes, too. (Hurray about Noal, though!)
Lan and Tam are MOA and full of win. Loved them both. Lan bags a Forsaken, and we have a definitive Lan > Galad > Gawyn. Tam was awesome throughout, but I think my favorite is the sparring match with Rand.
Rand, by the way, was RAND. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the revelation that Zen Master Rand is, at least in part, a front. I love that some of his new Jedi Powers are mind tricks. I love that he didn’t get a massive OP upgrade, as it seemed at Maradon, but instead a) found his angreal and kept it secret, b) exploited his new understanding of his taveren nature, c) and is freaking people out by singing the Song from the AOL! A song Aiel KIDS used to sing! Hahahahahaha that is hilarious.
And his personality is basically Rand. Changed and grown, like all of them, but when he relaxes with Perrin (I love Perrin calling him on being all Aes Sedai-faced, and I love Moiraine’s ‘does that work on others’ and I love his glee that it has!), when he argues with Egwene, when he and Mat are quietly bragging to each other in Ebou Dar…
Rand is finally, fully, really back, and I love it. He’s funny, heroic, and he’s clever – faking people out with the Song and his taveren-ness, plotting to capture Moridin via the flaw in Callandor (BRILLiant).
This is the guy who mastered the Game of Houses. This is the guy who saw through Lanfear and Asmodean’s disguises. This is the guy who figured out how to cleanse the Taint, who trapped and tricked so many opponents.
I love that despite all the chicanery there is obviously still SOMEthing to the One with the Land stuff.
I love that he met Ishamael/Moridin and Lanfear separately, confronted them each alone, and completely freaked them both out. He’s grown so far beyond them both! (I also love the dream shard stuff, and that we got some hints of clarity about why the dreams in the first three books didn’t quite match the rules we later got for T’A’R; some more info on what Slayer’s motives were and what was done to create him; the True Power teleportation as an explanation for why the Forsaken’s popping in and out in early books didn’t look like Traveling; and I forget how this sentence was going to end. Moving on…)
I still don’t love the True Power use at the end, and I’m not sure about the end. I expected him to end up in Moridin’s body and to get to live out a peacefu life in obscurity. And I expect his ladies will Travel to him via the Bond and so that’s ok. But I don’t like Tam thinking he’s dead – nor Mat or Perrin – nor knowing if he’ll ever let them know he’s not.
And I suspect this is now ridiculously long. I’ll put the rest in a second post, maybe that will help with the Wall of Text effect.
I think Gawyn should have been able to kill Demandred. From previous descriptions of the Bloodknives, they were barely visible and just blurs to others. Gawyn got lucky in defeating them. When Gawyn was fighting Demandred, it seemed he didn’t have any edge, at all. Is Demandred seriously that good?
So quick other thoughts without much explanation:
Pleased at how effective the Shadow was. Demandred was great (despite his “STELLA” shenanigans), very competent and impressive. He almost had to be in Shara, but I’m still irritated a bit that the Sharans’ appearance wasn’t telegraphed a bit more.
I’m a little annoyed that there’s never a clear sense of Trolloc numbers.
I can’t seem to account for all the lightside channelers. The White Tower had close to two thousand novices and Accepted, right?
Where were all the Kinswomen who never got accounted for?
Shouldn’t there have been a couple thousand Wise Ones who could channel who could’ve been more in evidence against the Ayyad?
With all the Windfinders out there, they were seriously ALL needed for the Bowl of the Winds, even though only 13 at a time could use it? Really?
Pleased (and horrified) at Graendal’s corrupting the Great Captains. I was so pleased they would each get a front, and so horrified when I realized what was happening.
I’m also horrified by Graendal’s new name. I was sure that was going to be Leigh’s nomenclature complaint! Knotai doesn’t bother me – Mat may like a jacket, but despite Tuon’s attempts to dress him, he’s not wearing any bloody neckties.
Pleased, and horrified, at how close Lanfear came to winning, after seeming to do nothing useful for the Shadow throughout.
Tuon and the Seanchan are fired. I liked Tuon and Mat’s interactions, but sending Karede to commit suicide uselessly? What a tool. And the whole horrible slavery tremendous hypocrisy thing. And I’m INFURIATED that the Seanchan were so much less devastated by the LB than anyone else.
Moiraine – didn’t do much, but loved her reunion with Nynaeve, and loved her appearance at Merrilor. She gave me goosebumps. Her quoting prophecy at everyone reminded me of Egwene’s debate with Elaida where she did the same, but this didn’t require everyone else to be idiots for Moiraine to be awesome. Good as Egwene became, Moiraine dominated that gathering. I remember we were told several times in early books how effortlessly she could take control of a room; awesome to be shown it here.
Sad that Nynaeve and Moiraine didn’t get more screen time. Glad I was right about them being in the circle with Rand. Loved the line, when Nynaeve is patching up Alanna, that if any other woman had been with Rand but her, the world would have ended.
Surprised Cadsuane got so little screen time and was so quiet at Merrilor. Could be interpreted as just too much else to do in the book. I choose to interpret it as her finally having confidence in Rand. Crazy?
Loved Pevara and Androl. Loved Gateway shenanigans (though after Androl wiped out a whole army with lava, why did we never see that tactic again?) and jack in the box with cannons.
Logain went pyscho. Did not see his storyline going the way it did, but glad that he helped the kids and the kids seem to have helped him heal a bit.
So many other thoughts and feelings, but I’ll end here for now. Thanks all.
Oh…about Egwene’s death via overdrawing the Power in her grief and rage and determination. Reminded me of the story of Eldrene’s death and the destruction of Manetheren. So, I liked, unwillingly, that bit of resonance. Tai’shar Manetheren, and all.
And I also loved, during the Battle, that the Two Rivers men fighting were described as a thorn to the Dark One’s foot and a bramble to his hand. Very nice callbacks.
Siuan and Bryne. Sad – but I find in interesting that so many of us thought the ‘fulfillment’ of Min’s viewing for them was lackluster. Apparently we should have considered the possibility that it wasn’t fulfilled after all….
No reunion for Siuan and Moiraine – sad.
No more book to read – sad. Guess I’m gonna start my reread now!
The end…..I really am so sad to see it go. As much as I wanted “the rest of the story” it’s so very odd to not be thinking of what may happen in the next book. I want to post a coherent post here so I have to think for awhile. Quickly:
I loved the body switch at the end….’you have to die to live again’.
Egwene…GASP! Bela…..awwww…..Rhuarc…..NOOOOO! Logain….WTF dude?
Love love Pevara and Androl. And Lan!!!! All manner of wonderful.
Mat….Tai’shar Manetheren!
Noal a HotH! GREAT! And Olver the new Hornblower, nice move!
I loved the Hinderstap connection! And firing the dragons through gateways…brilliant.
Anyway, this book was astonishing. The ending perfect. Bittersweet, yes, but just right. Was everything perfect in the story, no, but hey…. I still have no complaints.
A major kudo and thank you to Brandon Sanderson for finishing it in such a marvelous manner.
Thank you to Wilson for pointing Harriet to BS and to Harriet for hiring him.
And last but not least…..to James ‘Robert Jordan’ Rigney! Without him we wouldn’t have been given this wonderful story, gotten to know our ‘super kids, and for me personally…..introducing me to the genre.
of course, Egwene’s detractors will now say: There she goes again, what a hypocrite. She gets all up in Elidas business about building herself a palace and then makes a monument to her own greatness
What a story. I have been excited and couldn’t wait to get it, yet hesitant because I was worried about who wouldn’t make it through the Last Battle.
My reactions:
First *Gasp* moment: Moiraine’s entrance. Should have seen it coming, but was so involved in the room full of preschoolers I forgot all about the teacher.
Biggest shock: Egwene. Never expected that she would be the sacrifice. I thought everyone from the Two Rivers expedition would make it except Lan. I was preparing for bloodletting of Epic Proportions, but didn’t predict that.
First tears: Bella. Seriously, you Had to take her down? I would have hoped to see Egwene on Bella with the Heroes of the Horn, but maybe that would have been too cheesy. Still. WTH?
Major Shudder: Birgitte. Seriously, I knew she was going to die in this battle, but I felt physically ill when she was executed.
All in all, a very satisfying read. In a word, exquisite.
I really enjoyed AMoL. Thank you to Brandon, Harriett and the rest of Team Jordan. This was a satisfying end to a wonderful series. In this post I will set forth what I liked and did not like in AMoL. I wanted to post this before I read Leigh’s review or the almost 260 comments. I intend to read Leigh’s review and all of the comments.
Before I get to what I liked/did not like, I would like to note that the absence of Nakomi in AMoL reinforces my opinion that it was an unnecessary scene in ToM. Aviendha could have just had those thoughts internally. She did not have to meet with Nakomi.
BTW, did Amys survive the Last Battle? Did Agelmar survive? Did Mat get the fox head medallion back from Lan?
What I especially liked:
1) Moirainne during the meeting of the rulers at the Field of Merrilor.
2) Graendal’s use of Compulsion on the 4 Great Captains.
3) Gawyn’s death. I find this totally consistent with his character. Throughout the series, he acted rashly and without thinking of the consequences. In this instance, using the Rings to try to kill Demondred. I wish it had been otherwise due to the effect it had on Egwene (who, along with Mat and Elayne are my favorite characters). IMO, I think that his death lead Egwene on the path she did when she killed Taim.
4) Elayne’s performance as head of the Coalition of Light. She may have been the only character who could have effectively soothed all the egos of the Coalition’s rulers.
5) Lanfear’s interactions with Perrin. I would never have guessed such an interaction.
6) Rhuric’s fate (both his Compulsion and death by Aviendha.
7) I believe that BWS got Mat’s voice down in this book. (Although, to be fair, I felt that for the most part, BWS got Mat’s voice correct in TGS & ToM.) The portrayal of Mat as outwardly sarcastic with a good bit of immaturity but underneath very capable and cunning was spot on.
8) The death of a major hero (i.e. one of the TR boys or Super Girls). Personally, I would have preferred Egwene to live and Nynaeve to die. (As Nynaeve is my least favorite character). I am unsure which would have made a better storyline – Egwene’s death as written or her surviving and having to deal with Gawyn’s death.
9) How Min’s viewing of Siuan and Bryne played out. They saved each other’s life by being together in TGS. Yet once they were apart, they both died. I also liked that we saw Bryne die “off screen.” It felt more poignant that way.
10) Graendal and Moghedien’s fate. How appropriate for both. However, I still feel it would have been more realistic for at least one Chosen to be free in the Fourth Age.
What I did not like:
1) Perrin and Slayer’s battle. Should have had less “on-screen” time.
2) Demandred’s turning borderline insane. Throughout the series, he was portrayed as a level headed schemer who wanted to kill/best Rand (as the reborn LTT). Yet in this book, he becomes so focused on defeating Rand in combat that he losses the big picture. I also found his love of Shendla to be out of left field. None of the other Forsaken seemed to be capable of caring about anybody but themselves. However, the reader suddenly learns that Demandred has fallen in love? I found that odd.
4) Rand and the Dark One’s different visions of the world did not work for me. Too similar to what we saw in TGH during the Portal Stone trip. Although, I did like how Rand saw what would happen if he killed the Dark One.
5) How did Egwene (pg. 163), Nynaeve (pg. 605) and Moirainne (pg. 891) know Moridin’s name? I did not think that Rand had told anybody Ishy’s new name.
6) Rand’s new way of lighting his pipe. I would have kept him as being able to channel.
One other note. I beleive that if Egwene had survived, she would have realized that Rand still lived. She suspected that Elayne had bonded Rand. Thus, she would have known that her stoicism over Rand’s “death” was an indication that he really lived.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Finished the book tonight (at around 9:30p PST), and still have 6+ pages of notes to sort through before I post about my reactions to the book, save these: AWESOME. Breathtaking. A real heart-wrencher, especially in That Long Chapter of Chaos and Death.
Thank you, TOR and Team Jordan. Thank you, Brandon and Harriet. And thank you very much, Mr. Rigney, for creating this world we all love to talk about.
Your commentary and teasers are hilarious as always, Leigh. I’ll probably be laughing and/or tearing up the rest of the night… XD
Size: I did notice, when I first got it home, that it’s got to be at least 1/4″ narrower than ToM, despite being 50 pages longer. Different paper, perhaps?
And yes, it’s a lot to take in—hence my taking 5 days reading and taking notes.
“Brobdingnagian”: Okay, I HAVE to look that up.
(later) Huh. Didn’t know that name. (Never read it.)
I’ll have a LOT more to say later, once I compose my notes into something more coherent.
Only 260 comments? (Well, 253.) I guess I’m not too surprised; it’s a lot of story to process, and I notice a lot of these are verbose. I’ll read them all eventually, once I finish my own Post of Verbosity. ;)
Bzzz™.
256.chaplainchris1
re: The story of Eldrene and Aemon from TEoTW
I was wondering if anyone else picked up on that. It’s chilling to go back and re-read that scene, now knowing that it’s a forshadowing of Egwene’s death.
Edit to add:
165.anthonypero
The deaths of Gawyn and Egwene couldn’t be reversed because they are made to match Eldrene and Aemon’s from TEoTW.
I love what Freelancer wrote regarding choice. Right on! But there have been themes from many spiritual traditions thoughout this book, including (in particular) surrender, which is prevalent in Islam. I feel like there were themes of many religious/spiritual/philosophical schools that all were finally embraced by Rand in this book, if not earlier in the series. I found it profound and lovely and befitting of “humanity’s” hero.
I did not like Egwene dying but I understand how her message to Rand “embrace mine” (regarding her death) along with what Tam tought him in his final lesson “let go” served Rand in his final spiritual development. This was forshadowed in ToM when he explained to Min that, what was different this time, was that he was raised better (and referenced Tam and Egwene, etc.) It might have been that Moiraine had well and truly died in this book and said the words Egwene said from death, and that may have been more powerful given the history of Rand’s remorse over her death, but that would have been complicated in other ways.
What I want to talk about is Nakomi! I feel like we were all as tired as the light by the time we got to the end that we passed over it (I loved all of the commentary on how tired everyone was and how long they hadn’t slept – it felt like a tribute to us!) – when Rand leaves the pit of doom he notices a woman – of Aiel dress? he can hardly see but assumes she’s an old woman based on her gray hair. She says that he did what he needed to, and then she leaves… he explains himself and longs for company… (sorry, I can’t quote directly, the book is not here…) and so, was that her? Did she have to do with the transmigration of souls from rand to moridin? Wasn’t that her, and if not, who was it?
I feel like the Nakomi secrets were revealed, I just haven’t sorted them out.
Thanks Leigh and Team Jordan – suberb! I’m dumbfounded and humbled by your work.
PS- those who bitch about Leigh’s “non-coherence” missed the point completely! And! Her rave around the non-ambiguous someone-in-this-series-is-gay is so right on! I was awestruck and super-satisfied by Pevara’s thought-comment regarding Emarin… finally! Thanks Team Jordan for that moment!
I edited my original comment @31 to put my full initial reaction to the book in. If you’re curious why I think Dannil’s conversation with Perrin is a nice little “Easter Egg”, scroll back there.
AndrewB@260
Remember it was one of the copies, not the original. Mat couldn’t risk taking off the original because of the fear of Compulsion that had already struck the four Great Captains.
RMGiroux@121 makes an excellent point though … how could Narishma heal Lan? Looks like a future edition will need to add a couple of sentences where Lan takes the medallion off (or someone does it for him.)
forkroot @31
That would be Hyam Kinch, not Almen Bunt. Kinch was the one who gave them scarves and drove away all guilty and asking forgiveness. Bunt is the one who drove them into Caemlyn.
scook @251
You presume quite a bit. Rand is in Moridin’s body. We have nothing to tell us the bond remains, and his ladies have no idea where he’s headed. That’s why his specific phrasing is to wonder which of them will follow. Because they can’t simply Travel to him.
lbrown @254
Keep in mind, Demandred knows what Gawyn is using. Those bloodknife ring ter’angreal are from the Age of Legends, not a recent creation of the Seanchan. He told Gawyn he knew of what they did, and made sure Gawyn realized that he was a dead man no matter what. That raises an interesting point, actually. In a world of strong channeling, for the assassin rings to be a suicide sentence is more significant. It means that Gawyn couldn’t have used them and then simply gotten Healed of what they did to his blood. Anyway, back to Demandred. As one who helped bring the art of war back to humanity, something like these rings would have gained his attention, and clearly he knew how to fight through the advantage they gave Gawyn. Heck, Gawyn beat the advantage against three of them, and Demandred surely knew more of what he was doing.
AndrewB @260
But we do see Nakomi again. It must be she who Rand sees at the entrance of the cave while carrying out Moridin. Old woman, unrecognized, Aiel Dress, gray hair. Yep, same description as Aviendha gave. And likey both met her in tel’aran’rhiod. Aviendha almost certainly never realized that, but perhaps Rand knows he’s in the World of Dreams at that point.
Nederin @264
There was more than Emerin. Lord Baldhere as well. NTTAWWT.
Honestly I feel that Team Jordan,BS n Tor have done a superb job..
I am sad,shocked,surprised and satisfied at the same time.
The re-read will be more enriching bt I feel that the characters of Mat,Egwene ,Olver and Avi were given due justice.Egwene is certainly the Ooh Ooh Girl.The end of ,according to me, the most detailed,awesome and overwhelming series of all time will take time to sink in.
Each and every character has contributed to my life.WOT goes further than giving a wonderful story.It gives us characters with whom we can relate to.It gives us values, convictin and love wich we must adhere to.
I am looking forward to the discussions after the re-read.Congratulations to all WOT fans who have stuck till the end.
RJ, if u are up there somewhere,know that we pay homage to you by UNDERSTANDING what you wanted to tell us.
Tai’shar RJ!!
WOW! What a book! What a way to finish off the series!
Thanks Team Jordan! Needed to Finish this story and you did!
That,s one checked off on my bucket list! took 21 years to do it.
I Think Im ready for a new Adventure! I just got an E= reader and now im ready to start the re-read. This time It should only take 3 months.
Ride The Dragon
fl @@@@@ 266
P905 “…Min nodded, feeling the pulsing throb of the bond in the back of her mind…”
31.forkroot
Some thoughts on your thoughts:
I’m not sure that would be a sufficient reason. Birgitte showed up, but she tells Elayne that she’s about to be reborn. Elayne’s babies have 3 months to go.
How about this as an attempted justification: The only reason Perrin was around in T’A’R to stop Lanfear (at the very end) was because his struggle with Slayer pulled him there – and made him strong enough to deal with her.
anthonypero@234: But later *others* say that it was Rands body who carried the other. So if we can trust that Rand knows that he carries someone and then others saw his body doing it, at that time it was still Rand in Rands body.
What I could imagine is that he comes out, falls unconcious and then Nakomi is there (see Freelancer@266) and performs the switch.
chaplainchris1@255: I don’t think the suicide mission was useless: he would have wanted to fall into his sword right there (remember the guards when Rand killed the first commander of the Return?) and Tuon pointed him to something usefull…
Freelancer@266: it is even mentioned in the book that the bond is still in place: Min feels the “pulsing throb of the bond in the back of her mind” (p.905, white cover edition) when the tree stand in front of the fire. I read the “which would follow” question that he wonders which one will give up her life/position or at least “get curious”of his new life… (Elayne: “I’m gone for a few weeks, please mind my country for me. — No I won’t tell you where I go.” …time spent with Rand… “I’m back. And I’m pregnant again…” … some years later… “Mom, why do we children look so different, do we have different fathers?”)
From my point it fits that Egwene had to die: the boss of the BT (=Rand) went away, so the boss of the WT also has to go. Both towers start fresh…
@@@@@219: “@@@@@ 214 re: “Uh. Is that who I think it is? Because whooooa.” I still don’t get this one. Can you explain? Thanks in advance!”
If I’ve understood it correctly, it’s in reference to this:
IT IS TIME. LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN.
on page 431, just before Rand enters the cave.
Also, was I the only one who found Demandred’s love for Shendla hilarious? We’ve seen several similar romances between Light-side characters (e.g. Lan/Nynaeve, Siuan/Bryne, Pevara/Androl) where someone who expected never to fall in love unexpectedly does, so seeing this happen to one of the Forsaken just struck me as incredibly funny.
Started crying in the prologue “Oh Talmanes…”
JL@271
I agree. And there were two elements to the pulling. Enacting justice for Slayer’s slaying of the wolves as well as Rand and the wolve’s inability to counter Slayer’s unique qualities. Those combined gave Perrin the initial motivation and the follow-on energy to stick with Rand despite Faile’s difficulties.
A nice symmetry at the end was the pay off of Perrin’s love and devotion to Faile which propelled him away from Lanfear’s Compulsion commands. It provided the mental momentum needed to transition from, “this is wrong” to actually doing something about it. Without Faile the Pattern would have ended. Funny that is.
Here’s the one thing that really got my attention last night. I got up to check on my kid and couldn’t go back to sleep. I’ll just read a little out of tEotW, that usually relaxes me. I couldn’t get into the book because now I know how it all ends.
As much as I love this series, I am scared that it will become like the Belgariad or tLotR or Masquerade, it is great to visit old friends, but now that relationship is finite and predictable. I will have to ponder this some. This is uncharted territory for me.
Woof™.
It was my understanding that Mat sent one of the copies from Elayne to Galad who then returned it via Lan. @266 The bond is referenced in the back of his head as he rides away. The “lack of reaction” of the 3 women also implies the bond exists. It was one of my questions but since Rand did not die but transmigrated I guess the bond stays.
double post
Righto, now to it.
Hi Leigh *waves*
I know it has been a while, but I needed to step away from this. Most of the stuff I had to say was said, the rest seemed to be dependent on what others have said and my reaction to them. That was getting very formula, and I have too much going on in my life to constantly reinvent the wheel. So I spent quality time with my daughter and contemplating my navel.
Right off the top I gotta say “THEY KILLED BELA?! Who came up with that plan? IT SUCKED”. Was this some kind of lame way of saying Bela is not the Creator? Because let me tell you, Jesus died too. So there.
Lan. The Main Man. Bags of awesome. Coverd with awesomesauce. With a cherry on top. The Main Man is single handedly responsible for killing an army of Trollocs. 2 fades in one go? Mickey Mouse couldn’t do any better. Demandred? Lan fodder. A while back on the Chosen thread on Facebook we had a cage match thing going on as to who was the best. Lan was kept out because it was obviously him. SEE? All that garbage about Gawyn vs. Warders and Galad… Well here it is on paper. Lan stomps all. And he is ” just a man. That is all [he] ever has been.”
And thank you for putting Demandred out of my misery. It was really starting to grind on me him standing in the middle of a battlefield crying because he didn’t get the last chocolate. It reminded me of David vs. Goliath. Come face me… kid, sling, Goliath dead.
Tuon. Sweet holy Mother of….! What on earth does Mat see in her? OTOH I do think it is fitting that the two characters most destined to piss each other off should be married together. But Tuon has some major, major character flaws to overcome. Her terrible fashion sense just being the start.
Suian. Nice. I felt something coming along when she started talking about her legacy. Only rich people and geezers talk like that when they see the end coming.
The stuff with the Great Captains, good times. Should of seen that coming because that was the only legit way to have Mat step up and step in. Good on him. BTW the thing with the gateways in the sky?
*facepalm*
Brilliant.
Perrin and Faile. I’ve changed my mind, they are awesome. This end makes the whole PLOD thing worth while. Although I have said in previous comments, being married, I do understand where Perrin is coming from. You find a good woman, you stand by her, she is worth moving Heaven and earth, and a really heavy horse for.
Rand… I liked the end bit, Rand and the new body, I liked the bit about putting Humpty Dumpty back brand new, the duel with the DO, well, Garion vs. Torak, anybody?
Major kudos to Brandon about making the fight epic and the centerpiece of the whole book. It is the Last Battle, it cannot come and go in a couple of chapters. Leigh? I can’t wait for you to get to that chapter in the reread. You MUST cover it all. In one go ;)
Loved all the one liners.
Loved Loial. Big furry lumox. I will keep him and hug him and squeeze him and call him George.
Tam. See? Sheepherders kick butt. One of the best scenes ever was Tam in the pike formation at the head, whopping ass. Then Lan comes along and salutes him. “I have long wondered, about the man who had given Rand that heron-marked blade.”
Sooo many good one liners. So much to cover… the Song, the Way of the Leaf …. Gawyn being a tool Ohhh!- “The Shadow didn’t need to fell the Amyrlin herself to stop her. It just had to kill one idiot boy“. Truer words were never spoken.
There is much more, but I will start a new post as this is getting epic, like the book.
Woof™.
Uno… Yay Uno, old age and experience win out over youth and enthusiasm, every day. Lan, Uno and Tam proved that out. See? { This has nothing to do with you, Freelancer ;) }
“Are you sure you want to set down in there?”
“No!”
“Good answer!”
Ogiers ridin’ dirty. Trollocs, they be hatin’.
“If he ever needed someone to yell a message from Caemlyn to Caihien for him, he knew who to ask.”
Those Sharans. That Wyld dude, really irritating. And those what of Aiel channelers? Yeah, the Aiel have massive t’oh for that one. At least Rand gathered them all in and they were a known quantity.
Logain- what kind of glory was that? Other than resisting being turned, super lame. Androl really came forward in this fight, and his touchy feely interchange with Pevara? Loved it. Older than most trees, comparing to an old strap of leather…. ahhh, memories. My big regret is that we will not see the reunification of the Black/White Towers, men and women channelers coming together onscreen at the end.
Cadsuane lives. Hehe for all the haters.
I have to give a nod to the rest of the Forsaken. They sowed chaos and wreaked havoc as was fitting their tittles. Even Taim, the douche. Glad to see they all get what was coming to them.
Echoing Leigh’s sentiment, I am sad to see that things did not come full circle in the end and we did not see all the OG people in the same room, prior to Rand’s death. That would have made a great Hallmark card. At least it would have mirrored the Last Supper.
Birgitte. Hard death, but seeing what was happening to her was harder. Glad she is tied to the Horn again.
Somebody explain to me the Hornsounding thing. At what other point did Mat die after the hanging? Or was it the Ruby thing or the Balefire thing? Anyways, Glad to see Jain, that was bags of awesome. I would have loved to see Hawkwing talk with Tuon about things onscreen. Maybe have her a little dumbstruck for once.
Rhuarc. Started awesome, ended… gah. Bad taste in my mouth, and it isn’t just the breakfast. At least we can assume that Gaul gets a new chief position. Gaul totally kicked hiney, btw. Did me proud, big guy.
Yay for wolves too! Not just all cuddly balls of fur either.
Woof™.
BTW- folks? Head on over to the bunker… serious finale party going on there!
Suffa is serving and we have horrydovers and oosquai stuff.
Woof™.
@279 Subb, I find the Belgariad very simplistic compared to WoT. The Belgariad and Malloreon used to be my fave and most reread series back in the day…
@Ahoy- that is the point. The fight between Rand and the DO- picture the exchange between Garion and Torak and the big lug needing someone to love him. Darkness, absence of light, I think I saw that in Legend too. Anyways, my point is, I’ve seen that whole exhange before. The bit about comparing the two complete stories, is not what I meant if you read me :)
Woof™.
@266 Free, FWIW, I got the impression on 661 that Demandred thinks Gawyn has a weave on him called Night’s Shade. He doesn’t realize it’s because of the Blood Rings, and thinks LT lay the weave on Gawyn. We don’t know when the rings were created either.
On the Fain thing.. I’m almost positive that the short story that is coming up in “Unfettered” will be filling his story out. Per Sanderson..
—–
Well, I wasn’t sure I’d be able to be involved, because A Memory of Light has taken…it was taking quite a bit of my time. It’s quite the big project, and finding any time at all to work on anything else was really difficult. At the same time, however, there’s a sequence of viewpoints in A Memory of Light—and I’m not at liberty yet to say who it is, but it’s a character that you will know—that I was working on that were somewhat more daring than some of the viewpoints I’ve done. I wanted to try and give some deeper backstory to someone, and at the end of the day, showing the scenes to Harriet, we all liked them, but they didn’t fit in the book. Harriet felt that they were too distracting, because of the new, sort of…new things I was adding, the things I was fleshing out. This is something that sometimes you want to avoid in storytelling, where you’re near the end of the climax, introducing new concepts to kind of distract and derail.
She felt that these scenes were doing that, and so after some discussion, we decided that they should be cut. And I always kind of felt sad, because while I agree that they were distracting, I really felt that they were strong and that they added a lot to the character, and give a lot of extra motivation—a lot of extra poignancy to some of the things going on in A Memory of Light—and so I began to think maybe this would be the place for them. I approached Harriet, and she said she thought that was a good idea.
So what we’ll be doing, it’s a story called “River of Souls” but it’s actually a sequence of deleted scenes. They are a complete arc for a certain character; they are meant to be read companionly to A Memory of Light. It’s not going to make a whole lot of sense if you haven’t read at least the rest of the Wheel of Time, but I find them very exciting; I think you’ll really like them, and I think this is a good place for them because they won’t be distracting from the rest of the story.
—
The new ‘Things” he’s talking about is most likely the new that Shaisam was. I’m sure everyone has noticed the similarity between the names of Shaisam and Shaitan (i’m likely not spelling these right from memory). Also all the references to Souls in the scenes with Shaisam.
So.. in the immortal words of Robert Jordan… RAFO
Finally finished. I’ll gather some thoughts and be back. Awesome. Wondrous.
Wow. That was INTENSE. And wonderful.
I have a lot of thoughts, some of which are escaping me now, but among them:
-Throughout the series we are told that the purpose of the Green Ajah is to stand ready for Tarmon Gai’don. Apart from Elayne and Alanna, where were they and what were they doing?
-Shaisam/Fain’s scenes felt like an afterthought, but that was a great use of Mat’s trickster persona. -The Pevara/Androl two-way-bonding-mind-meld was an interesting concept I’d never considered. Hilarious at times, too. Not to mention Androl’s ingenious – and at times, silly (fetching tea?) – uses of gateways. It looks like the purpose of the Red Ajah has been completely turned on its head. Oh, and let’s not forget Logain’s rescue, tricking Taim and grabbing the seals – this was just an awesome plotline and I’m kind of sorry we didn’t get to meet Androl earlier in the series.
-I think I actually whimpered out loud at each death of a familiar character – even some of the minor ones.
-The “town” in the Blasted Lands was one of the creepiest settings in the entire series…and the red veils? shudder
-I would love to read Loial’s book!
Thank you, Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and everyone else who was involved in bringing this Age to a close. It’s been a wonderful 15 years for me.
Subwoofer @280–my sense is that Logain’s glory is just beginning, and it starts with letting go of the desire for individual power and revenge in order to save the innocent. He has a long way to go to achieve it, but with Androl and Pevara on hand, I think he will get there in spades.
I just finished the book about half an hour ago, and I’m so grateful and happy and just a little bit sad because of all the death and pain and destruction. I feel raw and exposed emotionally but it’s all overlaid with a wordless feeling of peace. Thank you so much Robert Jordan in your last embrace of the mother, and thank you so much Brandon Sanderson for rising to the challenge and carrying that Dragon’s banner through till the end, which of course is no more than an end. There are so many things swirling around in my head right now but foremost is the wonderful feeling that a long and beautiful journey has finally come to an oh so satisfying ending.
Thank you also Leigh Butler for years and years of dedication resulting in endless joy and entertainment in all its facets.
Now on to read this post! =)
Finished this off last night… my personaly highs and lows (I guarantee this is incomplete):
Highs:
More action in this book than any other four in the series put together… it was like several hundred pages of Dumai’s Wells. Yay.
Not afraid to kill off primary characters. It’s the Last Battle, people were going to get dead. Glad they didn’t shy away from it. Sometimes that “NOOOoooo!!!!” reaction is what you’re *supposed* to have when you’re reading.
Demandred. Now *that’s* a Forsaken.
Lan doing him in. Because it absolutely had to be him or Rand and let’s face it, how satisfying was it that Demandred didn’t even get to meet Rand after all of his obsessing about taking him on in some giant climactic one on one showdown to determine who was the Chosen One? Ha. Ha. Ha. (Also, Lan taking out the to Mydrall solo earlier… and also, pretty much anything Lan ever does)
Hinderstap. Genius.
Olver as hornsounder… and the wolves have Heroes too!!! And Jain! Awesome.
Perrin Vs Slayer throwdown, and just generally Perrin coming into his own as a badass master of the dream.
Pretty much everything Mat did except the final showdown with Fain.
And, yes, that was how it should have ended with Rand.
Lows:
I got pulled completely out of the story when Aviendha reacted to Rand giving them his power heated shower by saying it was “completely crack-brained and irresponsible”. That’s how Elayne would have said it, not an Aiel. I know it’s a little thing but it just jarred. Set me off worrying Aviendha in this book was going to be like Mat two books ago, just… off. Fortunately that didn’t happen again. At least not like that.
Mat killing Fain/Mordeth/Shaisam/Mashadar with about as much dramatic effect as we would see some red shirt in a star trek episode getting dispatched was just weak. Totally anti-climactic. Oh here’s one of the baddest most deadly entities on the planet, the Shadow itself is afraid of this guy, it’s going to take something absolutely epic to take him out… can’t wait to see how they pull this… Mat grabs him and stabs him. Oh, he’s dead? Come on. And the explanation for that was also pretty weak.. Mat has Mashadar *antibodies* or something? Nope, sorry, can’t make my brain go long with that.
Tuon needs to be smarter. Seriously. Yeah, great at political maneuvering… *stupid* about women who an channel. Some excuse for it a few books ago when she hadn’t been exposed to anything outside Seanchan but for cripes sake, open your eyes and look around and learn something woman. You’ve been here long enough to get a clue. And stop re-naming people!!!!!
Biggest dissapointment:
We don’t get to see Hawkwing go have a sit down with Tuon about what the Seanchan have been running around doing in his name? After they dangle it right in front of our faces? We don’t even get a MENTION of it when Mat goes to see her later, not one single hint it even happened? DID it even happen? Evil. Unforgivably evil.
Well I see I’m a ‘little’ late to the party, but I wanted to finish the book and think about it for a couple of days before jumping back in here.
First and foremost: Thank you Leigh!!!
You have taken what was already an important part of my life and turned into a conduit to awesomeness.
Through this re-read, I have met some truly amazing people who I am thrilled to call friends in real life. (WAVES)
I know that I am far from the only person who has experienced this phenomenon, but since it’s me it makes it special. :P
No on the re-read! You took most of my feelings on completion of this book and wrapped them up better than I could have said them. Thank you again because you allow me to be lazy.
I too find the ending ‘mostly’ satisfying. There were things that I really wanted to see happen on screen that won’t ever, in some cases. Others that might happen someday, but we won’t get to see them. (No Two-River’s reunion- Salute Egwene). Of course some of those, like a meeting of Rand and Galad will be, by necessity, different than I have imagined in my head.
I was really disappointed at first because of the number of untied threads left at the end, but on reflection I realized that this is a blessing.
For those of us who ‘see’ future Randland events, we are left with imagination fodder. And perhaps more importantly items to debate within the community.
I have not decided which events take my personal award for most gut wrenching or cheer inducing. There were plenty of both. At the moment it is Bela’s death, and Lan sheathing the sword. (But I’m pretty sure they are gonna change by the minute as I consider other events)
Thank you Robert Jordan, Harriet, Brandon, and the rest of Team Jordan. It’s been a hell of a ride to the top of the hill, and I can only assume that it’ll be just as much fun down the other side.
Mis-contented with this ending, and awaiting the next beginning.
@Sub
Move a horse for…good stuff.
Continuing from @217, where I listed what I liked about AMoL (which I liked, but not loved):
The Bad
Moraine’s re-appearance. OMG, how could they drop the ball so badly on such an important storyline? On something that was billed as crucial for Rand’s victory? On an awesome character, whose return we were (im)patiently waiting for, for how many books?!!!
Moraine has a good entrance, I’ll grant you, but she has nothing else! Even what she does at Merrilor could have easily been accomplished by a combination of Min and Cadsuane.
In no way was her return otherwise worth risking Mat, whose role is more crucial by far and Noal/Jain, whose role is also much more crucial than Moiraine’s, could have died some other way.
Really, instead of letting it all go out with a whimper RJ should have just left Moiraine (and preferrably Lanfear) die for good. Memory of her would have done everything her presence did and more! And I blame RJ here, because it is clear that he had fleshed out nothing for Moiraine except for the fact of her return and her presence at the Sealing and Brandon didn’t dare to invent anything.
Moraine becoming weaker in OP and her boons from the Finns along with the fact of her not using one of them to escape were clearly intended to be important, but nothing was done about it.
Yet even Moiraine’s and Nyn’s role in the Sealing is reduced and hollowed-out to the max. Even the rules of linking, where a woman had to always lead a 2:1 circle were changed just to make them more irrelevant.
And sharing of emotions in a link, something that would have allowed them to bolster Ran in his battle of wills with the DO? Forget about it. Doesn’t happen at all, for some reaon.
Along with false advertising re: Moiraine’s role in saving the world, there also was little to no emotional pay-off. No scenes between her and Lan/Siuan, extremely brief moments between her and Emond Fielders, rather creepy (or maybe it was my impression because of how she is being voiced in the audiobook) and pointless interactions with Rand, also very short…
Heck, Moiraine, the adept at reading people and reconstructing their actions from minute signs was seemingly fooled by the body-switch shenangians and it is Cadsuane(!) who waves Rand on his way.
WTH was that, coldness and avoidance between her and Lan and Lan not thinking about her in his PoV at all? They have been each other’s closest person for 20 years! They have found the Dragon together and she saved his life by the bond transfer, however he might dislike some particulars of it.
The same applies in somewhat lesser degree to Nyn, who, at least, had a chance to be awesome and on-screen in intervening books. Still, I would have liked to see more of her.
People have been saying that no space could have been spared for these and other character interaction scenes because all the battles needed to be fit in, but this is completely backwards. The battles by themselves aren’t and couldn’t have been interesting. And to be clear about this, I blame RJ for it.
RJ was the one who refused to give channeling rules and structure, except as a strawman of false beliefs of hidebound AS that were getting overturned at every opportunity.
RJ was the one who inflated power levels and numbers of channelers and made overpowered abilities, such as Travelling, widespread, while offering no counter, which made any notion of “holding a territory” into a travesty.
RJ was the one who had people use or not use hiding their channeling ability or inversion/reversion of the weaves and other clever tricks without rhyme nor reason, even though any rational person would have used them all the time whilst in danger, etc.
And yet the whole time he planned to have this humongous Last Battle, where a non-channeler was supposed to be in command(!) and other non-channelers were going to be depicted as important. That, after a small group of channelers easily despatching 100K Trollocs in KoD.
So, battles involving channelers were going to be, by definition, complete handwavium and not engrossing by themselves.
Brandon tried to make the best of it by retconning the huge numbers of channelers and their powers to much more reduced levels, illogicaly keeping WT recruits off-screen and having armies with very small amounts of channelers who were attacked only by those with none (Demandred didn’t read Sun Tzu, apparently), but it comes through as extremely contrived, IMHO, and doesn’t solve the root problem.
So, depicting battle minutiae should never have been a priority. Battles are there to:
show that humankind needs to work hard and sacrifice hugely for it’s salvation.
set-up and show-case emotional character moments. And I do blame Sanderson for not including nearly enough of those.
The Seanchan. I really hated how they participated in LB the least, how they weren’t there to see the sacrifices of channelers, how Min didn’t bring up Siuan’s role in rescue of Tuon when she was raised to the Blood, how their face wasn’t rubbed into superiority of circles, how nobody except Egwene challenged their beliefs in significant ways and she is now dead, how nobody (not even Rand!) spoke up for the male channelers, whom, they will presumably continue to kill, as they will continue to collar female ones, how nobody brought up the wrongness of enslaving non-channelers, how treaties aren’t considered binding for the Empress, how they are snatching up people to collar on the very eve of victory when nobody is looking, etc., etc.
I understand that it was left as a hook for the Outriggers in the outline, but now that they will never happen more should have been done to at least force the Seanchan to think about the matter, IMHO. As it is, Mat is getting all too comfortable with using damane and d’acovale… which is omnious.
All the fake deaths, except maybe for Lan’s. I don’t care that Rand’s body-swapping was extensively foreshadowed, it was cheap cheese that severely diminishes him as a character and the motive of sacrifice of humanity at the Last Battle.
Galad and Faile should have stayed dead too – what’s this with contrived keeping together of couples in life or death?
And oh, how much of stuff turned out to be a complete filler! Perrin’s PLOD as yet another reluctant leader of men (after we already had that with Rand _and_ Mat)?! OMG, what a waste! His role in LB had nothing to do with it!
Morgase? Should have died when Amador fell to Seanchan and spared us.
Re-invention of cuendillar? Pffft, who could think that it might be useful at the Last Battle, with all the balefire, eh?
Egwene’s reforms and recruitment drive, which brings tons of strong channelers with life experience for the last battle? Have to keep them on-screen and send children fight Trollocs instead…
Etc, etc.
@Isilel
That 100K in KoD is what happens when channelers have no foil on the field to prevent it. Rand tried it again after getting away with it twice and was eventually forced to withdrawal.
I do miss how RJ describes a channeling duel and duels in general, but that was something RJ was particularly talented at. I don’t expect the same from other authors with different strengths in different areas. Although I think BS well with the Demandred duels in particular.
As I read through AMoL it became clear to me that there easily could have been a 4th book to round out the series. I’m looking forward the the Encylopedia. I think it will be a phenomenal companion read to the series as a whole and will satisfy some of the minutiae that we WoTers love to ponder.
CireNaes @294:
And? 3 of 4 armies in AMoL had no such foil and full numbers of channelers _RJ_ had introduced would have overhelmed them easily.
Also, they don’t seem to use weaves such as in KoD or even at Dumai’s Wells to prevent non-channeler troops from complete irrelevance. Nor do they build big circles. Nor do they hide their abilities/weaves, which would make “foiling” them extremly difficult. All contrivances, IMHO.
IMHO, RJ’s strength was in depicting feelings and perceptions of a person fighting, the actual moves didn’t really make sense, nor did they allow any appreciation of tactics, since except for balefire, it was never made clear why one would use one weave over another and what advantages/drawbacks there were. It was mostly the matter of brute strength and “anything goes”.
I always thought that it was a pity, but it goes hand in hand with annoyingly handwavery approach to channeling that RJ adopted.
Thank you Team Jordan, for completing this in a most satisfying way! It really was an epic ending and I’m so very glad I got to read it.
There were a few flaws….I could’ve used more character interaction and a bit less battle, but the battles were good. I’m definitely going to have to do an immediate reread, as the ending was so powerful, that it’s hard to remember the rest of the book, and it was all a great emotional roller coaster.
No doubt my thoughts will come out in dribs and drabs, as I manage to reflect on it all.
Some of my thoughts on the ending;
I do wish that Nynaeve and Moraine would have had a pov. They just were kind of “there”. I like that we found out what Min’s discovery was, at the proper time. Yay, Min! And I loved Rands battle with the DO, in fact, I would’ve liked a bit more of it. His conclusion was wonderful. Choice. Yes.
I really would’ve liked Rands thoughts on the body switch. I’m assuming that he did it while still in the Pit, while both he and Moridan were still using Callandor and channeling. But HOW did he do it? Was Moridan a burned out husk? He was holding Callandor, after all. They were obviously connected and knew it (the hand cutting and sword dropping), and it seems like something that would require the One Power. (I’m kind of calling authorial shenanagins on this small, but crucial omission.)
So when he carried his old, used, punctured, one handed body out of the Pit, and collapsed on the outside, was the woman he saw Nakomi? Is she a Jenn Aiel then? She says, “Yes, that’s good. That is what you need to do.” Does that mean switch bodies with Moridan? Does he do it then? If she is a Jenn, she would know LTT, she would’ve served him perhaps, in the AoL. Does she live in TAR to guide the Dragon each turning of the Wheel?
I’m assuming this meeting with the old woman (Jenn?) took place in TAR, as no one saw Rand and Moridan exit the Pit. They were “found” just outside of it. Maybe they switched bodies in TAR just outside of the Pit. TAR is everywhere, in all worlds, and I’m assuming that is where Rands battle with the DO took place. ?
In the tent, as Rands old body dies, Moridans body becomes stronger. How is this happening? Energy transfer? Soul locking into a new body? Did Rand actually “free” Elan to the true peace of death? Did Elan see the Light, through Rand at the end? I would’ve liked some of this!
As for the Bond…The three widows aren’t the slightest bit upset about “Rands” (body) death. They know he’s switched bodies. Nynaeve knows they know something. Min talks about feeling “the pulsing throb of the bond in the back of her mind”. They will be able to find him, anytime, anywhere! He will get to have a normal life! Know his children! Travel, see the world! Maybe buy a nice farm in the Two Rivers, governed by his old buddy, Lord Perrin. At least that’s my fantasy……
So did Rand discuss this switching possibility with his wives? He certainly discussed something with Alivia! When?
As for lighting his pipe as he rides away, while not being able to channel anymore….I believe Rand is now One with the Pattern. He has been outside of it, has viewed the whole of existence, and has rewoven part of it. He has a certain, um, control.
I’m looking forward to the reread, when we can get into everyone’s MoA. There was SO MUCH!!
from freelancer@266:…We have nothing to tell us the bond remains”
Yes we do. Page 905 just before the break:
“Min nodded, feeling the pulsing throb of the bond in the back of her mind.”
amys @287 –
“-I would love to read Loial’s book!”
I think we just did. In 14 installments :)
My comments/questions onposts through #146.
thetipsytavern @68: If Demandred was in Shara since he escaped the Shayol Ghul, it makes sense that he would not be able to guess Lan’s identity. He mau of known of Lan. However, Lan never gave his name. Demandred would have no reason to know Lan by sight.
re Egwene’s death (along with GenPender @109). I disagree. I thought it was exceptionally well written. It had a nice symmetry with what occurred with LTT and the Breaking. LTT died by intentionally drawing in too much Power and levaing a “natural monument” — Dragonmount. Although, the Crystals at the Polav Heights would shortly sink into the ground due to the wait. The wheel contiues to weave although each turn is slighlty different.
Androl @92: “twice dawns the day” I thought that this was the Light generated by Rand’s stuffing the Dark One back in his prison and creating a new “wall” with Saidar and Saiden as the sealant, buffered by the True Power. (pg. 883). I did not view this as an eclipse.
Inzey @104 re Aviendha eating more and drinking lots of water. If this was mentioned after she was healed, it may be due the the effects of the healing. I do not think enough time has passed from the time she slept with Rand and that scene for her to know she is pregnant. IIRC, it was only 1 -2 weeks. The only reason Tuon knew was that Min confirmed it.
(Query — Did Min say Tuon was preganat as of the end of the book or that Tuon would be pregnant at some point in her life?)
Broken Hearted @124. I agree that a Cadsuane Amyrlin regin does not bode well for cooperation among different channeler groups in the new Age. From a forward looking perspective, it would have been better for Egwene to survive the Last Battle.
Does anybody have an idea as how you could have structured the plot so that Taim (with his super sa’angrael) and all the Ayyd were killed without sacrificing Egwene?
Anthonypero @136 re irrelevance of the Nakomi scene in ToM given how AMoL was written. I could not agree more.
(I cannot wait to read Wetlander’s comments regarding the lack of Nakomi and/or Jenn Aiel. She made some thought provoking posts regarding her Jenn Aiel and Nakomi theories.)
More comments to come latter.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Grrrr… don’t get me started on the Ayyd… but all that, plus the Dreadlords, plus the pointy teethed Aiel are the response to Is’s comment in regard to channeling. It was a stalemate because they were outnumbered, outgunned and everything when it came to the advantages of channeling.
Edit- my spelling sucks, and I think Dreadlords is supposed to be capitalized too.
Woof™.
Reading the final book while I have a massive work project and a toddler at home forced me to slow down and really enjoy my first read of the final book.
I finished it at 1 pm on Saturday while my son watched a video of singing animated kittens learning their numbers. So there is a bit of a disconnect in my memory. But still, I loved being able to finish this series after 20 years.
This was the first time I wrote down my reactions to things as they happened because I knew my Tor.com friends would be there to share my reactions soon. Thank you Tor.com, thank you Re-Read buddies!
Reading “The Last Battle” chapter in a quiet house between midnight and 2 am was gut wrenching. Almost hyperventilated after Egwene’s death. Guess all those comments about she “will be the longest serving Amyriln in history” were to set our expectations. Who knows, maybe she will be reborn to be Amyriln again.
I couldn’t go to sleep until a few more chapters.
Looking forward to the start of the re-read again to share more reactions.
Thank you to the hundreds (thousands) of people who were part of making the Wheel of Time a wonderful journey. Especially James O. Rigney, Harriet McDougal, Tom Doherty and Brandon Sanderson!!!!
Just had a kind of symetrical thought about Rand and Tam. …..
At the end, Rand (a swordmaster)in Moridans (a swordmaster) body, leaves SG anonymously, with Laman’s Heron marked sword. He will go live a “normal” life somewhere….just as Tam (a swordmaster with a Heron marked blade) did after the Aiel war. Kind of cool.
I hope you allow me to share my thoughs.
OMG
…
Egwene, …
just I mean
…
Wow
I was reading Leigh’s review, and I was eagerly anticipating your (Leigh’s) reaction to Egwene’s CMoW.
If there is a scene that I will remember from the book it will be Egwene’s last scene – fighting after losing her Warder, beating Taim, discovering anti-balefire, having the presence of mind to release her new Warder, and figure out and order exactly when the seal should be broken, and dying taking multitudes of enemy channelers. (*)
It was amazing and gut-wrenching moment.
Rand has always been my favourite character, and seeing the mind of this new Rand through his POV was absolutely amazing. I was afraid he would be changed too much but he was not, the core was the same Rand I’ve always loved.
But the simple truth for me is that both Egwene and Rand really did shine in this book so,so brightly. Rand was much more slow burner (because time was flowing slower with him (half a book), and it was hugely satisfying for many reasons I won’t go now because I do not want to write a wall of text).
Egwene’s death though is the most memoriable moment for me in this book.
(*) And of course while not part of this scene was that in the end actually Egwene’s spirit that appears to berate Rand for the last time (eeer. I mean to help him see how to defeat the Dark One)
PS: Was I the only one who though that Mat had reversed almost back to Mat from book 5, by book 10 Mat had already accepted that he was trapped in his ta’veren thingy and had more or less resigned to it, and now he must have forgotten that, Bah. Still I can totally led it slide because it was hugely amusing
PPS: Oh and One of my favorite quotes from KoD was (by my memory) “Tuon, you are not my enemy but your empire is. … Husband you are not either but I live to serve empire” … What I am saying is that I wish Mat has spent more time actively trying to convince Tuon to abolish slavery.
Just speaking to the topic off the top of my head- like I ever rehearse this stuff- I have mixed emotions about the way the channeling was dealt with on the Light side. There were supposed to be hordes of Kin, triple the Tower number of channelers. They went “poof’, for the most part, I know that a fair chunk were used for gateways and stuff but the numbers don’t add up. There were also a whack of novices and stuff and they all took a back seat. I do recall stuff being said about the Baddies having superior numbers and skills, but the good guys have keen fashion sense, and it wasn’t after Labour Day.
The main thing that grinds on me about the Ayyd, the pointy teeth guys and all these other channelers is that the White Tower missed them all. We constantly see the bits about Tower numbers dwindling and less and less folks with the inborn ability, and lo and behold, the dudes the Aiel sent away are fine, mental, but fine for fighting. There are a whole race of people who have excelled at channeling beyond any skill the White Tower could match. Gah.
I will give props to the Windfinders, because they held their Bargain. They were given the hard task on the DO’s doorstep and they did not back out. The Battle Ajah at least had the grace to admit their faults and start living up to the hype too.
Cadsuane, while mostly off screen held her own too.
The folks we did see, Androl, Egwene, Logain, and all the POVs from non channelers help fill in the pictures. I don’t think we needed the graphic descriptions like we had in earlier books with Rand’s fights with the Forsaken.
What I like about Team Light was the hospital they set up, that was brilliant thinking. Having triage off site and Healing folks in a safe spot was a very good idea and executed well by Brandon.
I also loved the way that Mat finally figured out how to properly use the Dragons. Instead of carting them around and positioning and aiming and all that painful stuff that folks in artillery divisions have to deal with, the eye in the sky picks a target and they pop out through a gateway, go boom, and off to the next bit. Best targeting system ever. Talmanes was brilliant in his role here. I also see that Aldura is on her way to rebuilding the Guild, good for her.
The biggest thing for me is that everyone helped out. The Last Battle was about everyone and folks got that message. The refugees wanted to help in whatever way possible, children, old women, Tinkers, gathering arrows or helping wounded. The end of the world is not about sitting on the sidelines and hoping for victory, it is about doing what you can to help, and even if you didn’t win, live, whatever, at least you did something. Olver proved that out. A little boy, scared, alone and abandoned, and he did what he could too.
Wow, I could go on for days here. I am still processing stuff, and will be for a time, and will probably go back and read again, time permitting, but there is a lot going on and the filler was minimal. RJ, Brandon, all the set up and epically long books are all worth it if this is the pay off.
Thank you.
Sweet ghu, one of my drivers crashed and I almost lost this, whew!
Oh, look, I scored the 3 hunny as well. Whoot! And I’m back in the game :)
Woof™.
Hehe, the whole cannon out of thin air reminds me of a scene in “Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure”.
Instead of: Knock, knock, “candy gram”; grab, stuff, abduct, it was: knock, knock, “boom”, “surprise”.
Had me laughing for hours.
Woof™.
@239 The AS could use their powers against the Sharans. Their oath states they can only use the One Power against the Shadow or to protect their life or that of their Warder.
So no conflict there as the Sharans probably arguably fufill all three of those requirements and definately fuflill the last two.
“Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai”
from AB@299…I agree that a Cadsuane Amyrlin regin does not bode well for cooperation among different channeler groups in the new Age.
I’ll take the contrary view. Cads doesn’t put up with fools. But she worked quite well with Sorilea. Why shouldn’t she work well with the other groups?
Comments on posts 147-210:
Seamus1603 @188 re Elaida’s foretelling: I take that to be the purge of the Black Ajah from the Tower.
A.Fox @189: what a brilliant theory. That would be so RJ. I never would have thought of that on my own.
Syllabus @190 (to further what dsolo @194 wrote): Shaidar Haran was a vehicle for the Dark One to go out into the world. Once the Bore was sufficiently weakended, he no longer needed Shaidar Haran’s body. Thus, the black void gehind Moridin and the husk of Shaidar Haran.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(Formerly Joshman(#32 above) but.. poste the ending of AMOL, re-woven as J’Asha’man …. and hopeful that one day, we would be able to experience a return to the 4th Age in the world Jordan spun)
Just finished AMOL after receiving it on the 10th.
Wow , what a ride. 20+ years.
THANK YOU to all that made this possible. So priviledged to have experienced the TWOT in this lifetime. What a treat.
Some of my favorite things (outside of the main struggle)
Androl ‘s character
The Gleeman’s deadly knives while searching for the right word
GoldenEyes mastering his conflicts & the world of dreams.
Loial’s song.
The Gambler’s wily tactics.
Lan the Man
Tam’s Void
Olver
Bao & the Sharans
To all the WOT Fans:
May the light of the Creator revive you
when you thirst, may refreshment be near
May the Flame and Void help you through your struggles and
the Gambler’s luck to you as you “spit at sightblinder” thru your own battles
Just finished reading the book and….wow. i first started TWOT when a friend who had seen me checking it out idly at a b. daltons bought it for me for my bday. little did she know how much it would change my life and that 20 years later it would still be having an impact on me. I agree with leigh. it wasn’t perfect. i don’t think anything could be after livingand breathing a story for 20 yrs. but it WAS satisfying. and although i am not happy personally with some of the plot devices or deaths, i am happy that Robert Jordan brought me on this beautiful journey. And i find that not only do i mourn the loss of beloved characters, but i am also saddened that this particular chapter of my life is over. Tai’shar Team Jordan! Thanks for the memories!
And… subwoofer’s back! And Isilel is grouchily pointing out plot holes! The reread has achieved balance again. (OK, so it’s the Spoiler Thread, but you know what i mean.)
Just to fair to Isilel:
1) She wrote substantial praises first, in a prior post
2) Her complaints, as always, were well thought out
Anyway, it just feels more like old times here all of a sudden.
{:: waves to subwoofer and blows a kiss to Isilel ::}
Like many here I have been reading WOT for more then 20 years -I picked up EOTW in Forbidden Planet in London on the day after it and TGH were published here in the UK- and have been waiting for the endgame since then. There have been a few lows along the way and the middle three or four books were mainly a trudge that I still have little interest in re-reading. However the return to top form of the last several books have made all the waiting worthwhile, the distinct lack of sniffs, raised eyebrows, braid pulling and dress twitching has markedly increased my reading pleasure.
On to the meat of the matter, AMOL was overall a distinct pleasure to read, there were obviously low points -unavoidable in a massive 900 pages- but the events of the Last Battle played out over an immense 200 page chapter were suitably tragic, heartbreaking, heartlifting and ultimately triumphant.
The shocks like Rhuarc being taken by compulsion, deaths of Egwene, Suian, Bashere and many others both expected and not, the victories in single and group conflict, the heroic defeats all contributed to one of the most compelling passages of the whole series.
High points included Lan v Dem, Tam in the void displaying real blademaster skills and being saluted by Lan, the cannons firing through gateways, Mat and Rand having their p1ssing contest over who had done most to contribute, Lan’s charge with his way cleared and lit by Two Rivers arrows, Galad fighting Dem realising he was going to lose, Birgitte coming back to life, Hawkwing and Mat meeting, Thom at the tunnel composing his ballad and killing darkfriends with equal skill, loved Mat’s recovery from Mashadar to kill Fain so casually and still looking at the ruby dagger for a moment before turning away, Perrin finally sorting himself out and kicking Slayer’s arse, Mat and Tuon’s final meeting still sniping at each other.
Egwene was a pain with her I know what’s best and you’re a stupid sheepherder meeting with Rand, -really? still peddling that same old crap? Cadsuane was what she has always been, didn’t particluarly like the Rand/DO debates, they were too much like a teenagers debating club for me,Gawyn was a spoilt kid who wanted to prove he was worthy to the grown ups as usual but didn’t think about the consequences of his actions.
I guess all the Olver == Gaidal Cain speculation was correct after all if Birgitte is about to be reborn?
Even with the above caveats it was a real pleasure to read and well worth the three late nights and bottle of 25 year old Talisker it took to get through it.
Good work Mr Sanderson, overall I think you really pulled it off, top marks for finishing this epic journey
@283 Subb: Ah, I see what you meant now. Makes sense to me :)
Comments on posts 211-265
Freelancer @235 & @266: That could be one explanation (Of course, if it is, I may owe Wetlander an aopolgy). However, I would not go as far as to use the word “must”. There is no in text support to make that conclusive statement.
BTW, how would Nakomi know where to find Rand? Is she perhaps some ancestor of Rand.
I believe that if the woman that Rand met (whether he was in Rand’s body or Moridin’s) was Nakomi, some further clues were needed. I think this is too big a mystery not to have provided more clues. I think this because not that it was a unresolved issue. Rather, it was only mentioned for the first time in the ToM. In RJ’s original plan, the ending scene would have been in the same book as the Nakomi scene. I do not know why that should make a difference. But it does to me.
Haman @239: IIRC, the 3 Oaths allow for use of the power against somebody to defend your life or your Warder’s life. As the Aryyd were trying to kill the Aes Sedai, they could use power to defend or kill them.
Iburns05 @240 — Galad lost an arm and had a scatch on his face. It was Logain whose face was burned beyond repair.
Forkroot @265 — Pg 797 — the medallion that Galad takes off and gives to Berelain is in the shape of a fox’s head (although this may be a typographical mistake as IIRC, the note that Mat sent to Galad contained a medallion with a Tar Valon mark.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
After 22 years I’ve finally finished the Wheel of Time. I’m typically not one to read a book quickly, preferring to savor it and the experience of reading it as much as humanly possible, but for this one I cleared my schedule and did little more but read throughout the weekend.
I paused when I got to the epilogue, almost reluctant to move on. Those were the last words of Robert Jordan’s that I would ever be able to read, after all, and I wanted to let them soak into my consciousness slowly, hesistant to let them come to an end. I savored those last moments and then slipped back into the story.
In the end, the final lines were much as I have long imagined them to be. That made me smile because I’d first imagined them in such a way because I believed it was the only way the story could. Everything fell together as it should.
The saga of the Dragon is finished, and now I will be putting it aside. Some day, perhaps many years in the future, I’ll take it up again and relive it from start to finish. For now, though, I’m so grateful to have had the story, and those characters, live within my minds eye. I bid them all a regretful, but warm goodbye.
Hi Fork :) *waves back*
I’ve always been around, just commenting on other stuff. I found myself in the interesting position here that did not sit well with me, so I had to step away or I’d start regaining my sanity. Not a good thing. It is good to comment again, I have been noticing a lot of fresh faces, ideas and blood, and it is a good thing. Let’s keep this going.
As far as what Isilel has said, I do applaud the comments, because as always, they are spot on. It got me to thinking about the position of Moiraine and Nynaeve. First off, them being back in the same tent was somewhat anticlimactic, I suppose one could argue that Nynaeve has matured. As for their role with Rand in el Cavo, well, that is tough. Option A was what Brandon did, lend Rand power and not much else. Option B was for them to take a more active role and leave Rand more vulnerable. Remember, Rand still is not completely comfortable when it comes to seeing women hurt, and while the intention to help may be there, the opposite would very well happen. Of the three boys, only Perrin seems to have got past this. BTW nice killing of Lanfear.
I do agree with Is about Nynaeve having a chance to shine in previous books. We see Ny’s power growing, her becoming a full Aes Sedai and gaining respect beyond just being a “wilder”. Moiraine, we get squat, but it has never really been about her. I felt cheated by Suian’s death, like I said, I felt something coming with her going on about legacy then Min spazzing about her and Bryne not being in the same room together.
About the Rand vs. DO battle. Let me just say that it is a hard topic and I do not have any answers, just questions. The way I see it, what it comes down to is what all the other series I have read comes down to, some poor schmuck fresh off the farm being the chosen one vs. , for all intents and purposes, a god. How do we equalize this because there is no way even the chosen one should be able to fight a god, and all through the books we see that. Rand gets a jump in power, but is it enough? The other danger being, if Rand becomes so powerful that he can defeat a god, does he then become a god? So it always comes down to a choice instead of a direct confrontation. That is what I have seen time and again. That is all I was saying.
Oh, and Mat was bags of fun too. Brandon has him down much better here. Kudos.
Woof™.
For me, it started in October of ’94 with a fifteen-year-old boy asking the librarian if that huge book sitting behind the shelf was reserved. It was, but the first book in the series was available, so he checked it out with the librarian telling him that if he liked it he could get the rest later. A few days later, he came back and checked out books two through five and reserved book six. Fast-forward a few weeks, and he asked the librarian if she knew anything more about the series. Exasperated, she pointed him to the library’s lone computer and inadvertently introduced him to message boards, newsgroups, internet fandom, other high-fantasy series, MUDs, BBSs (where he met his wife, incidentally) an unfortunate incident with printing out the WOTFAQ to keep in a three-ring binder (he didn’t know any better) and much, much more. And now, a little over seventeen years later, that fifteen-year-old boy who was just looking for another series after his parents took away his copy of The Lord of the Rings (he wouldn’t read anything else) finally knows how the story ends.
How to judge the impact of something that has practically been part of my blood for so long? How to put into words the joy, the sadness, the satisfaction of seeing the series come through to its fruition. To Brandon Sanderson and all at Team Jordan I say Well Done, and Thank You for undertaking the task of giving us this ending. To everyone I have met, interacted with and befriended over the years due to our mutual appreciation for this phenomenal series I say Thank You for sharing, and for allowing me to share in our amazing community. This may be an ending, and what an ending it was, but this is not the end.
Oh, and the scene with Olver and Jain Farstrider had me crying like a little girl.
-Beren
Correction to my post at @314 above (which I just now realized). My apology should have been directed to “Wetlandernw” and not “Wetlander”
-AndrewB
@Andrew B (comment 314)
Mat’s note to Galad contained a foxhead medallion and a Tar Valon Mark, not a medallion on which there was a Tar Valon Mark.
“Galad frowned, then upended the envelope, dumping out something silvery. A medallion on a chain. A single Tar Valon mark slide out beside it.”
The mark is for the bet–that even with the medallion Galad can’t kill twenty Sharan channelers.
So not a typographical error. :)
Thank you Team Jordan for giving us the joy of this last chapter to our favourite epic fantasy series. It was a grand and fitting conclusion to these books which have been a big part of my life.
As a longtime reader who had little connection with early usenet discussions or the FAQ, it has been a true pleasure to find this Tor community and discuss the books with passionate and erudite fans within the framework of Leigh’s wonderful re-read. So I feel it’s a great privilege to appreciate the last book in the context of this great community.
After seeing some of the negativity around the web about aMoL, I was admittedly a little worried, but I needn’t have been. I really enjoyed this excellent book.
Re Rand:
I generally loved Rand’s story arc – it was obviously always going to be a core of the series. But it was executed well. It was great seeing how Brandon took Rand’s newly reconciled personality and had him do everything better than LTT would have notwithstanding that he was still a fallible human being. That said, the second half of the book was significantly better than the first half, I thought. Really loved the sparing with Tam scene. Wonderfully written.
Ultimately this book was going to stand or fall on how well it portrays the disparate pockets of humanity banding together within the context of the Last Battle and the orbits of the major characters and the final obstacles that surround them. In that, Brandon and Team Jordan really triumphed. It was moving it was cohesive. I really loved how the perspectives were interspersed with tragedy, struggle, conviction and hope.
For a series that is sometimes criticised for protecting too many characters, I felt the book did a good job of showing us the harsh consequences of war. It struck a delicate balance between not soft-peddling the arbitrary outcomes of this kind of large-scale and relentless loss and destruction, and still harnessing the themes and character arcs of the series in a poetic sense. So, for example, alongside the grand acts of victory and death, there was senseless deaths, and compulsion and collateral damage.
A lot of people have complained about Siuan. But even though she is one of my favourite characters, I didn’t feel outraged about what happened. She made a calculated choice to observe and influence the Seanchan, and had her moment of reconciliation and acknowledgement from Egwene, and that was worthy. Siuan will always live on in my mind and heart as one of the stronger characters so nothing is tarnished. Sometimes good people get crushed by fate. Not everyone can go out in a grand confrontation because it’s just unrealistic.
Gawyn –poor Gawyn. His death echoed the sense of futility and recklessness that pervaded his choices in life. But I think ultimately you have to acknowledge that even distracting Demandred from performing his duties as general, leader of a full circle, and holder of a sa’angreal was potentially very important. It’s hard to assign concrete values to counter-factuals, but we have no idea what kind of untold damage he might have done if he wasn’t occupied by fighting duels for all this time and bearing in mind Gawyn’s duel led to Galad’s etc.. The only thing that was a little odd was that Gawyn’s swordmanship was built up to such uber uber status and then he puts on three of those damnable rings, and he still doesn’t have an edge on Demandred? That was odd though possibly Demandred being able to recognise the phenomenon meant he could counter it; we just don’t know.
Speaking of Demandred – it was great to finally have such an effective, albeit flawed, Forsaken. Loved that he had feelings towards the Sharans and he felt maybe he should have been otherwise. It echoes Rand’s realisation that he had played some role in making Demandred the man he is…. In many ways I’m disappointed we didn’t get more time with him previously though it may have made his final reveal less dramatic.
Re: Egwene – she was appropriately impressive in the preparations and execution of the Last Battle and had a fitting death in the end, I thought. The new weave she discovered was cool – I hope it isn’t lost.
I disagree with those above who imply that her role in this book somehow neutralised every objection about her behaviour (especially opposing Rand). I think this mistakes the objections to her character completely. Even with the dialogue at the FoM restraining Rand from making the sort of plain argument he made earlier to Perrin, there were still plenty of moments where her gonzo personality managed to be obnoxious despite all the good she was doing. Indeed, her flaws were perfectly consistent with the positive role she did play as they have been from the beginning of the series. Far from validating everything affirmatively, the book echoed these flaws – including having her singled minded determination never give way for serious self-reflection or self-doubt that is a habitual for most other characters, or the way she tends to filter every interaction, including those with dear friends, to analyse whether it would enhance or encumber her authority and the power of the White Tower, (making little black marks and ticks), and her totalising mentality which was reflected in her aggressive and uncivil rants against Tuon. These qualities existed for her character as the other side of the coin to her being such a decisive and politically adept leader, who was completely and utterly committed to her current cultural anchor –the White Tower. Let me just say, I had a teary eye.
I really enjoyed the Great Captains sub-plot and Mat’s emergence as a the ultimate military commander. Great idea to have the Great Captains subtlely deploying the armies wrongly due to compulsion. Very clever combination of Grendel’s mastery of compulsion and Demandred’s mastery of war.
I have much more to say but it’s going to have to be split into future posts.
AhoyMatey @284
RE: The Bloodknive’s ring ter’angreal. They were not created in Seanchan. Per a previous tour question asked by me, suggested by someone else here (sorry, I forget who):
The conclusion is that the rings were already in existence from a time before the loss of talent for making ter’angreal, and either brought to Seanchan with other belongings, or intentionally delivered there during one of Ishamael’s periods of freedom. I would extend this thought to say that most probably, the name for the weave enacted by the ring once activated is, in fact, Night’s Shade. This fits the facts at hand, and makes sense with the story.
RE Cadsuane:
We’re not certain she would accept the Stole and Staff, but supposing she did, anyone thinking that means a return to the worst traditions of the White Tower are sorely mistaken. She has always turned tradition on its head. To name the top two indecent things to speak of directly, relative strength in the Power and a Sister’s age. She worked with Rand, no matter the attendant friction. At Far Madding, at the Cleansing, in Tear, etc. She was available and willing.
Also, in her past is a record of gentled male channelers who lasted longer than expected, and who, as far as we can tell, bore her no ill-will after the fact. We can only speculate about her behavior in those cases, but it would have to at least include significant compassion.
So, blustery and abrasive exterior aside, she is capable of seeing what must be done, and of doing it. With all of the changes upon the world, this is the right person for the job. Let’s hope that Logain has softened up enough to work well with her.
subwoofer @304
The Kin didn’t transfer it’s entirety to Caemlyn when they left Altara, so while it’s true they had well over a thousand members, nowhere near that many joined Elayne. Then, they lost many members in the fight to rescue Elayne from the Black Sisters outside of Caemlyn. They lost more to Mellar’s sneak attacks. As for the crowd of novices acquired in and on the road from Salidar, they should certainly have been represented in the fighting. If the children of refugees can collect arrows from the battlefield, then young channelers can be linked in circles with fighting Sisters.
Two quick points of clarification:
1. The novices and Accepted were sent by Egwene to the hospital in Mayene to help the Yellows heal. That’s why we didn’t see them in the battle.
2. @312 – no, Olver is NOT Gaidal. This has been debunked by RJ himself years ago. Olver is what, 8-10 years old, I think? Gaidal is reborn before Birgitte is ripped out of TAR and bonded to Elayne. Doesn’t someone in AMOL say something about the story taking place over two years? That puts Gaidal somewhere between 18-20 months old…Olver is clearly too old.
Whoot! Hi Free, glad to see you’re still north of six feet under :)
Yeah, the Kin thing does bother me. I have been thinking about the attrition, but as you did mention, children and aged folk and Tinkers were on the battlefield. The refugees understood the significance of the Last Battle, anybody that holds a spark should get it too, no Novice or Kin should sit on the sidelines. Further to this point, Team Baddie took great pleasure in ridiculing Androl, the least of the male channelers. Androl was weak, he should not have been raised a Soldier or Dedicated or a full Ash’aman. Great. But he’s the one that ultimately wrested control of the Black Tower from Taim. If Androl could rise above, imagine what contributions others could have made. At least share their strength in circles or something, it sucks being a coppertop, but there you have it.
Question- when you are put up/ nominated as Amyrlin, can you refuse? I don’t think you can. I don’t think Egwene could. I also think that was why Cadsuane was doing laps in no man’s land, because she was avoiding nomination. The Sitters/ Ajah heads cornered her before she could weasel out. Heh.
As for the rest, I suppose what bugs me is that the numbers of channelers were so skewed. Did the Baddies have a better PR department than Team Light? Because, dang, that battle was fairly one sided for a while there. A lot of good folks died and I demand a recount.
At least we saw Gardeners and Ogier fighting side by side. That was wayyy cool to see, a very gratifying payoff indeed.
Woof™.
I intentionally spread reading this out over several days, so not to be hit to hard emotionally by it (I feel I made a mistake in that regard with Harry Potter, reading it all in one day). After reading these books for 12 years, all I can say after finishing to Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson, and everyone who worked to bring these books to us is Kiserai ti Wansho.
@296: What was Min’s discovery?
Also, perhaps relatedly, something else I’ve been wondering about: How did Egwene know when to break the seals? (Was it one of her dreams?)
Zizoz @325
Two bits to Min’s final discovery about Callandor: That if used by a male, someone else could sieze him into a circle; and that it was a sa’angreal able to magnify both saidin and the True Power. That gave Rand the last piece of the puzzle for how to get at the dark one. He couldn’t afford to “touch” him with saidin or saidar, lest they be tainted as before, but he didn’t dare channel the True Power himself. So he let Moridin “take” Callandor, then used the flaws once Moridin began to draw through it.
Thanks.
Didn’t one of the Aiel say he had an exceptionally ugly son that was born not to long ago? I would think that is the most likely choice for Gaidal.
Thank you for mentioning Hinderstap; I had totally forgotten about that. When I read that part I was a little confused, thinking Mat must have arranged to have some people dress up like the ones who’d been killed, presumably hoping to unnerve the trollocs et al. But, yeah, now I remember it from a previous book. It was a nice way to tie up a loose end, if you can call it that.
For Andrew B.
The note contained a fox-head medallion *and* a Tar Valon mark.
A necklace and a coin– not a medallion with the mark of Tar Valon.
An easy mistake to make when you’re reading too fast…!
On Friday night I stayed up until 3. Then on Saturday I was up until 4. Finally I finished this book at 3 this morning.
Egwene you guys.
I mean… she was never my favourite, but I didn’t realize until this book (well maybe TGS) just how much she is at the heart of it all. So her death was beautiful, and gut-wrenching, and… I kind of just want to pretend it didn’t happen.
Seriously, Jesus Christ, Egwene. I don’t know who I expected to die for realz in the Last Battle–not Lan or Nynaeve even though Lan has thought he would die through the entire series, not Siuan or Gareth due to thinking they were off the hook, not Gawyn. I thought that Birgitte would bite it and come back (little did I realize how horrific her death would be). I thought maybe Perrin and Faile would die, and/or Moiraine and Thom, and that Rand would die and come back (man, how did everyone figure out he’d live in Moridin’s body)? I didn’t think Elayne, Min or Aviendha would die–maybe Min, but when Mellar was about to cut the babies out of Elayne I just put the book down in disgust because I thought it would really happen. (I sobbed like a baby at her final goodbye with Birgitte–I’m glad that they, at least, got a final scene together, since we never got a final Rand-Mat-Perrin scene).
But guys, for some reason it just did not even cross my mind that Egwene would die–and be the only really main character to do so.
Really sad.
to quote someone from the WOT FB group:
must have been hard. good god Brandon…
293.Isilel
Good, constructive, thoughtful criticism. I haven’t read all the replies yet, but I’ll pile in with some random thoughts.
Ok, so the effect of her appearance at Merrilor is clearly supposed to be the reason it was so important to save her. I agree that the effect was disappointing, but a Min & Cadsuane combo would have been far worse. What felt lacking to me was this: Moiraine’s presence makes a difference because everyone at Merrilor is in awe of her reputation, not because of her special connection to Rand. In TGS Rand thinks to himself that everything started going wrong when Moiraine died – but this is not picked up on AMoL.
Here’s a scenario which might illustrate what I felt was missing: At Merrilor, suspicion and distrust abound. Rand’s proposals are not even listened to. Instead, arguments break out, leading to drawn swords. Rand tries to calm things down but he is ignored – everyone knows he’s going to SG anyway. He flies into a rage and is about to destroy the whole lot of them when Moiraine comes in.
Well, yes and no. I found the battle at Merrilor to be sufficiently engrossing. I can’t say this for the three (or was it four?) long, drawn-out battles at Tarwin’s Gap, Saldaea (?) and Caemlyn. The third or fourth time I encountered a scene with Lan + temporary sidekick running about in exhaustion, I confess I started skimming.
I think I know why these scenes were put in – we have a major plot element (Graendal’s Compulsion) happening behind the scenes, with a slow build-up (with little hints) and a dramatic reveal. To make this effective – and provide context for the little hints (e.g. two reserve squads sent to plug the same breach) many detailed battle scenes were necessary.
I am of two minds here. True, we exchanged good character scenes for repetitive fight scenes. But I like Graendal’s task, I liked the scenes where Bashere and Bryne come under suspicion (also necessary to set up Min’s identification of Moggy and Mat’s Command). But would these have been credible without the dramatic tension provided by the battles? And would the book not have suffered by excising all these plot points? I don’t know what to say.
I had the same thoughts. But are you really ready to risk having both Perrin and Berelain on the dating scene together? I’m willing to let both Faile and Galad live to avoid that. :)
295.Isilel
It’s worth remembering that military habits change slowly, even when in hindsight it’s obvious something is irrelevant. You’d think no-one would question that machine guns, barbed wire and artillery make a cavalry charge irrelevant, right? Well, WWI had been going strong for more than a year or two before this was accepted. Same goes for huge masses of infantry marching forwards together – 20,000 dead on the first day of the battle on the Somme (halfway through 1916!) speaks otherwise.
296.Tektonica
I always assumed that it just sort of happened, not something which Rand actively attempted to do.
My understanding was that he is now in Moridin’s body (since it usually takes two hands to carry another adult), and the woman is pleased that he brought out his old body. As for her identity, I completely missed this while reading, but gray hair and Aiel clothing sound like pointers to Nakomi.
As for TAR or not TAR, well, Lanfear says that the barriers between the worlds have broken here, so I’m not sure if it’s a relevant distinction at that moment in time.
In the tent, I think it’s simple. Rand wants to live, Moridin wants to die, so that’s what happens. All the soul-switching has already happened.
The degree of his foreknowledge is an interesting question. I think the absolute minimum is that Rand hoped somehow to survive and slip away unnoticed, with no certainty that it would be possible; his trio was able to figure out what was going on thanks to the Bond, without being advised of it ahead of time. If Rand knew what was going to happen, I would expect to find hints to that effect – perhaps a few re-reads are necessary to identify them.
@general
Did anyone notice the BIG VOICE Rand heard when he entered SG? He was anticipating it, and whispered ‘Thank you’ in response, which strongly implies it’s not the DO. Pretty much the only candidate left is the Creator.
It also fits well with the short conversation in TEOTW.
Yeah, Rand thanking the DO would just be awkward.
As far as the details surrounding the body switch I think there were 3 factors at play, their strange bond, their forced link, and perhaps Calandor’s prophecy that “all he is can be seized.” Pevara and Androl show the idiocyncricies of a dual bond made in the more traditional manner. Crossed emotions, even getting lost in one another’s thought processes, having access to one another’s abilities and having a difficult time self orienting. Rand and Moridin’s bond could be different since it was proposedly made in a different manner, but I think the results are the same, it’s just Calendor made the exchange extremely one sided. So the mechanics of the switch has enough substance to make it possible.
Just finished…whew! A couple of comments;
-Noal rescuing Olver was the most emotional scene for me.
-Mat-Fain resolution; not a fan. Just seemed dumped in there.
-Berelain/Galad, Perrin/Faile: Perhaps Galad and Faile should have both died in Mayene and Perrin’s arc ends with him and Berelain crying in each other’s arms…
-Tam the Blademaster: Leading the wedge, Lan’s feedback. Awesome.
-Alivia’s “help.” Sometimes simpler is better. Nice touch.
Has anyone ever seen “Scanners” a movie from, ohhhh the late seventies or thereabouts? The ending where the hero switches bodies with the evil guy…. I was thinking of this earlier during a discussion over Rand, the prophecies and whether and how he could live through it all. But I didn’t say anything because I knew I’d get laughed outta Dodge.
Wish I did now.
Z
Wonderful ending to the series! One kind of silly thing: there is a reference early in the book to a clock, as in someone looks at the clock realizing the time. Clocks?! First ever reference to clocks in WOT, am i right? Just wondering. I was struck by this small detail.
I’m also wishing that Rand, Perin, and Mat had all been able to get together at one point. I enjoyed any and all bits of humor in the book…and the end of the book with Rand was lovely. It makes you imagine all the fun/exciting adventures that he could have. No need for a 20-year-out epilouge. Our imagination is enough.
Finished yesterday and my mind, it is boggled. I laughed, I cried, I got up and walked away (several times). Looking forward to the re-read because I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around everything that happened. Going to have to read this again now to absorb it all.
My heartfelt thanks to Robert Jordan for creating this epic and seeing it through. Without his insistence, we may have never seen this ending after he passed. Also to Brandon Sanderson for a job of work well done. Though it may have been a labor of love, it still took an incredible amount of time and effort to complete this saga. And to Harriet McDougal for bringing her husbands wishes to fruition.
Oh! Also to Tor for providing these forums and to all the folks posting in them. The internet is an amazing tool and sometimes when the right combination comes together, real Magic can happen.
I’m going to save my comments for later except for a quick one re: Egewene. When she went up in a blaze of glory I flashed on the story of the Aes Sedai Queen of Manetheren. The old blood runs strong in the Two Rivers indeed.
@328: “Didn’t one of the Aiel say he had an exceptionally ugly son that was born not to long ago?”
That was Grady, actually, I think. Said that to Perrin around the time they were dealing with the Dreamspike in ToM, that he’d wanted to go back to the Black Tower to visit his family but couldn’t Travel. I agree, that’s by far the best candidate for Gaidal.
Another reason it can’t be Olver (as if more was needed): don’t you think Birgitte would recognize her eternally-beloved as the Horn Sounder himself?
Too many other topics to respond to. More later. Overwhelmed with thoughts rattling around my brain after staying up all night to finish it. :-)
I personally like to think that, in the same way that balefire erases one from the pattern, The Flame of Tar Valon makes one part of it. So, while I don’t know if this is possible, I like to think that Egwene will be able to manifest herself as part of Tel’aran’rhiod. Egwene and Rand are parralels; in the same way that Rand had to die to live, I like to think that Egwene will be able to guide all future Amyrlin’s. She did say she wanted to make TAR something regularly used at the White Tower.
Either way, though, she had a great death scene. I’ll admit, once Egwene died, I was convinced that Rand was going to do something that would revive all killed in the Last Battle. So when I got to the epilogue, I was pretty surprised, since death for main characters is so rare in WOT. Definitely succeeded in shattering my expectations.
merchantjvo @336
Pretty sure Master Al’Vere has a clock in the inn in Emond’s Field way back in TEOTW.
Great to read all the comments and see all the old usual suspects chiming in (Sub, Insectoid, Wetlandernw, Toryx, Isilel, Tektonica, etc.) as I am somewhat recently returned myself. Can’t wait for Leigh’s re-read. That should be some good fun…and a few more tears.
I don’t know which was the first character death was the first that choked me up, but I do know the first to actually make me cry: Bela. I had to read the sentence where she died three times before I let it sink in. Then I closed the book, set it aside and cried.
All in all, my expectations were pretty low, so I wasn’t too disappointed and enjoyed most of the book, though some things were poorly written.
Rand: Too much of a Jesus character in the last book, regressed too much in this one. The Rand/Mat bragging contest was cringe-inducing, but the Shayol Ghul scenes were mostly well done. Also, it’s impressive that someone who began the series as a naive sheepherder ended it as a deadbeat father on the run from his two pregnant girlfriends. That’s quite a transformation.
The Last Battle: Some of the battle scenes were enjoyable, but after a while it felt like the book had turned into a Trolloc snuff film directed by Michael Bay.
Demandred: Suddenly every Forsaken is a master swordsman. Asmodean was a baffling addition since he was useless with the sword in Fires of Heaven.
But hey, he got rid of Gawyn for us. Ultimately, Demandred’s death felt more satisfying than most of the other Forsaken deaths in the series.
Shara: Put a nail in the coffin of the WoT TV series, at least one that includes the ending. Yes, yes, there are black characters in WoT who aren’t evil such as the Sea Folk and some Tairens like Juilin, but they were largely invisible during the Last Battle, so it’ll mostly be black villains vs. white good guys. The only major black character in the book is Tuon who advocates slavery… Good luck selling that concept to HBO.
Androl: Felt like a Sanderson character transplanted into WoT. He might as well have named him Hoid.
Moiraine: Apparently Sanderson didn’t know what to do with her, so she became a background character, now strangely obsessed with tea.
Gawyn & Eggy: I guess their deaths were intended to be a sad moment, but it was the funniest scene in the book for me. They died the way they lived: Gawyn like a hotheaded idiot and Egwene like a Mary Sue. The anti-balefire weave was ridiculously deus ex machina; not to mention that Vora’s wand was introduced in The Great Hunt, yet this is the first time we hear anything about it being flawed the same way Callandor is.
Bela: Someone call PETA.
Moghedien: Nice to see some of the Forsaken survive, though Cadsuane will probably see to it that Mesaana and Graendal are executed. The epilogue should have included Suffa being introduced to her new roommate.
@343
Bela: Someone call PETA.
haha you just made my day. I’ll see if we can arrange for a suitable memorial, but I won’t be pressing for cruelty-to-animal charges for BS.
Just a line from the book that I found hilarious (thought would have been mentioned already tbh):
*blink* Like a bit of yeast? Possible candidate for worst simile ever, there.
I’m still not convinced that Cyndane was the one who ordered Isam in the Prologue, her later actions in the book don’t mesh with someone who would have ordered a hit on Rand. Plus she’s been around long enough that Isam would have probably recognized her.
I know some have been vocal about hating that particular scene, but I actually liked the Rand and Mat conversation. It’s worth noting that the last time Rand and Mat saw each other, Rand was well on his way to becoming a manipulative sociopath. It was nice to have some lighthearted banter that somewhat recalls their interactions in The Eye of the World. Of course, it’s strange that Mat just kind of rolled with it, didn’t even question that Rand had lightened up, but oh well.
JonathanLevy@1000/3
Yes, in my comments @31 I called it out (obliquely – thought I was being clever) as one of the “cleanups” for TEOTW. The Creator, he is a being of few words, eh?
One thing that was interesting was that Rand also SPOKE IN ALL CAPS during the time he held “god-like” power. Nice touch that.
285. theemptyone
The River of Souls excerpt is a Demandred POV they cut from aMoL. Brandon informed me of this in person at a signing.
He’s said this elsewhere as well.
LOVED the book. A few major things that are so not big in the main scheme of things but are COMPLETELY NAGGING ME:
1) We never get to see if being burned out can be healed the same as stilling!?!? WTF. Setalle Anan and Annoura, dammit!
2) WHO the frig is Nakomi – and was she the “instrument of the Creator or whatever??”
Finally – the only true disappointment which would have made the book so so so much better for me was for the Horn to have blown and for EGWENE to have shown up, bound as a Hero to the Horn, and able to live in Tel’aran’rhiod between her lives, the place she loved. In my head, I pretend that is what happened. Love that girl!! She may have died… but what a way to GO! And she’ll be born again…
After waitning 20 years for this to book to be written, it wasn’t worth the wait. I don’t fault Sanderson, I blame the poor editing skills of Harriet and the greed of Tom D. This book was all over the place, going nowhere,fast! Series fell apart about 500 books ago….i’m sick-to-my-Flame of Tar Valon.PA-LEEZE….so much i hated.
By the time I was halfway through the book, I was convinced that the worst mistake Rand had ever made was not balefiring Tuon in the Ebou Dar palace. However, upon further contemplation, Tuon may be the best chance of civilizing the Seanchan kingdom – because of Mat’s influence. About 75-90% of everything Tuon said or did in this book, and going back to TOM, infuriated me.
To those of you above who accused Egwene of being rude to Tuon in their meeting: please picture a survivor of Auschwitz meeting with Hitler. I think Egwene was admirably civil.
There are at least 2 indications that Rand’s 3 girls still have the bond. One is the mention of it by Min that several pointed out above. The other was when Rand was riding out. All three girls turned to look at him. I don’t think that one of them whispered to the other. I think all three turned in unison.
I think that Lan should have been able to beat Demandred in a fair swordfight. Lan has been religiously practicing with the sword since the cradle. What has that been – 30 or more years? Demandred was not even best at what can only be called a hobby in the age of legends, Belal and LTT being his betters – and maybe others. True, he has “been practicing” since his release to hopefully best Rand.I don’t think that should have been enough. I was hoping that Gawyn and his three rings would have offed him.
Just a few random thoughts.
Well, that was quit a ride.
Started the series on the recommendation of a friend of mine in 1996 or 7, and was periodically obsessed with the series, doing a reread every 6 months or so.
Obsession waned quite a bit when A path of Daggers was published, and it was a disappointment. The two following books wasn’t that great either before the series started to rise again.
Glad I stuck with the series however, as this was a satisfying end to the series despite the flaws.
The Good:
– It really felt as the last battle. People finally got their act together and finally joined in an all or nothing battle with the shadow. Making the ultimate sacrifice for there to be a future.
– Lan baddass fight with Demadred.
– The way new OP weaves was used in battle such as Androl gateway tricks.
– the shadows subtle trick of manipulating the great captains. The shadow was a bit more competent than they have been in the series.
– Mat and Demadread trying to out fox each other on the battlefield.
– Mat and Rand pissing contest, it’s okay to have a little bit juvenile humour in a time that is so bleak..
– Noal returning and saving Oliver.
– Pevara and Androl rocks.
– The death of Egwene. It was a shock to so her die, but if she had to die this was the way to go.
Sad as well when Suian and Bryne died. Wasn’t as upset as others has been on how they died. These things just happens in a battle.
Was a great deal more, but these are the ones I can come up with at the moment.
The Bad:
– Lack of several groups of channellers such as the Black Ajah, Kin, Accepted and Novices and partly Ashaman. Got to see some of them, but they should have had a bigger part in the battle.
At least the Accepted and some of the Novices should have been acting as batteries for the full Aes Sedai. Saving their strength so they would last longer.
– Egwene VS Alviarin, and Logain vs Taim with their respective towers would have been better symmetry than “White” White Tower vs the “Black” Black Tower.
– The battle plan was not really discussed much. They have the great captains of their age, and they had little to no input. Found that a little unrealistic, but
it probably had to be cut out because of size of book constraints.
– Perrins battle with Slayer lasted too long, and Fain could have been cut out all together. Although I was convinced he would be the new DO when he named himself
Shaisam, a name that is so close to Shai’tan. It sort of never went anywhere however.
– Flame of Tar Valon aka anti balefire weave was a bit contrived.
– Black Tower struggle could have been fleshed out a bit.
What I really wanted to see:
Mat + Tuon meeting Abell Cauthon. Better would be with the rest of his family as well, but I would have settled with his father.
Good comedy would have occurred.
– Meaning of the broken Crown. Guess Faile will be Queen of what is left of Saldea, but we never learned what the broken crown meant.
– Tuon been confronted by Alivia of what they had done to her, although that would likely ended in Alivia going all out on the Seanchan.
She is still not safe from them, as she is no Aes Sedai.
– And while I’m in wishful thinking mode we could have gotten Cadsuane to tell Tuon exactly what she thinks about them, but that would likely lead to full war.
Or even better would probably be Mat and Cadsuane. It would have been intresting to see how that conversation would have ended.
Hopefully the guide still is scheduled to be published, even if it looks like the outrigger novells sadly won’t, and this will at least give us some answers.
Other observation:
– Cadsuane as Amerlyn. Sure she is forceful, and can probably rule without too much interference from the Sitters, and is by and large level headed ,but diplomacy is not her strongest side.
It could work if she got herself a grey, or another sister with diplomatic talent.
– In hindsight Egwenes death was sort of foreshadowed. Being praised as the new messiah for the White Tower, and an Amerlyn that will last forever is usually a death sentence in any story.
Her “I am the Amerlyn feel my wrath” all out attack she reaoeated in the last battle didn’t help either.
– Verin, I think, managed to manipulate Allanna to bond Rand against his will so they could use her death to pull Rand over the edge when he confronted the DO. Maybe got her Warder killed so Alanna would be more
emotionally vulnerable.
At least the letter she gave/sent Allanna was probably the last dastardly act she did for the shadow. I wonder why she did it, as she really didn’t want the DO to win.
– The Aiel fate that Avhinda sees in her third time through the ter’angeral, could be the fate they would have suffered if Rands plan on remaking the pattern without the DO, as we where witness to Rand trying when he fought the DO.
I think it may show the future as it is likely to pan out at the time someone enters it. Another WO tried as well (I can’t recall who), and so the same thing. For the Aiel I hope it is so.
– To be a hero of the horns seems to be only reserved for those who cannot channel. No idea why. It suddenly struck me that none of the persons bound to the horn, that we have seen, can channel.
Just have to say thank you to Team Jordan for finishing the series, and Leigh for lot of entertainment reading her reread.
@346 I think it was Greandal using the mirrors of mist to make her beautiful again. The clue is how she uses the drink, or whatever it was, as a mirror looking at herself when she was beautiful again.
beren@317: Ha! Almost the first thing I did after I finally got the internet in 1998 was print the WOTFAQ!
337. merchantjvo
First mention of clocks in the series is in The Eye of the World, Chapter 21, Listen to the Wind by Nynaeve, so, no, its not out of place. In fact, the word clock appears 4 times in The Eye of the World.
EDIT: Out of curiosity, I checked the rest of my ebooks.
tEotW: 4 mentions
tGH: 1 mention
tDR: 4 mentions
tSR: 8 mentions
tFoH: 2 mentions
LoC: 6 mentions
aCoS: 10 mentions
tPoD: 3 mentions
WH: 16 mentions
CoT: 5 mentions
KoD: 8 mentions
tGS: 2 mentions
ToM: 0 mentions
Not all of these references were to actual clocks in the story, some where to clock makers, or the term clockwork (which implies a common understanding of what a clock is to even use the term), etc. There is one reference in aCoS to “one cannot clock the lord Dragon.” I assume they meant one cannot time the Lord Dragon, because plenty of people clock him upside the head in this series ;)
I do think our preconceptions of Epic Fantasy tend to place Randland in a milieu that is not accurate. Randland is more pre-industrial revolution and post-Renaissance than medieval. Even the Two Rivers had a few clocks, so they were exceptionally common, in that case.
Long time lurker.
I wanted to express my immense satisfaction with the overall conclusion of WoT, and maybe take a slightly different angle than sharing my various emotional reactions (Egwene – no! Lan – yay! etc).
I wanted to touch on what a great choice Harriet made in selecting Brandon Sanderson to finish this series and why. This was a massively daunting task and while we can quibble with certain moments (Mat in TGS is most egregious to me) overall I’d give him a 9.5 out of 10. To me there are two reasons why he was such an inspired choice and why Harriet deserves a TON of credit for making the pick:
1) Architect vs Gardener.
I read an interview with GRRM last year after Book5 of A Song of Ice and Fire came out and he was describing how/why he had managed to write himself into such a bad corner that it required years to figure out a way out of it. He said that there are two kinds of authors: architects and gardeners. Architects plan out their entire work as much as possible ahead of time, with outlines, maps, synopses, etc; while Gardeners use a more organic process, writing the story as it comes to them. Of course, no one is ever completely at one extreme or the other, but these are general archetypes. GRRM is a Gardener, and it bit him in the butt during books 4 and 5 and ASoIaF. Jordan is much more of an architect. Not completely, to be sure, but he’s on that side. And given that the series-completing author would need to be comfortable working from notes and outlines, you needed an Architect. Harriet must have understood this, because evident in Sanderson’s previous work and his blog posts is that this is the way he works. A Gardener-type could never have finished WoT.
2) Magic Systems, and comfort with thereof
One of the key structural components to WoT, as foundational as the concept of the Wheel itself, is the One Power magic system RJ devised. There were definite rules and structure to the system, and you needed an author that could not only understand that, but thrive with it. When Sanderson was named way back when, I went and started reading his currently published stuff, and immediately felt like they had the right guy. What Androl is to gateways, Sanderson is to magic systems. Not just in coming up with them and developing “real” rules and strictures, but then in coming up with amazing and inventive ways to do incredible things (without violating those rules) that the reader wouldn’t have thought of. So much of the awesome in these last 3 books, especially AMoL, was unique uses of the one power. All of the gateway stuff I would wager came from Sanderson, not Jordan. The Perrin/Slayer T’A’R fights were better than their equivalents back in TSR. That’s not slandering Jordan, but recognizing the unique talents Sanderson brought to the project. Seriously, if you haven’t done so go read Mistborn and tell me Sanderson doesn’t have amazing, hyperspeed magical combat down cold.
All in all, an amazing finish to an epic tale. If I had to pick I would of course have preferred RJ to live, finish his story, and get his own “Rand riding off into the sunset smoking his pipe” moment. But since we couldn’t have that, I for one am completely satisfied with the author and the ending we got.
Regarding Verin’s letter to Alanna:
I think what we have with Alanna is an Aes Sedai example of someone who, like Aravine, turned to the Shadow at some point in her life and came to regret it, and honestly hoped for a way out of it, but found it too hard. In the case of a Black Ajah member, those bonds would literally be too hard to break. I hypothesize that Verin was a member of Alanna’s heart (or at least attached herself to Alanna b/c of her knowledge of Alanna’s orders to Bond Rand) and was in a position, as a bit of a fake Black herself, to recognize the signs that Alanna was chafing to walk in the Light again.
This theory helps fill in the gap as to why Alanna didn’t release Rand’s Bond as soon as she was wounded, as any Lightsider would have. As a Black sister, she could not do so–she could not betray the Shadow ‘until the hour of her death.’ On the other hand, a truly committed Darkfriend would not betray the Shadow even then, thus my theory about her regret (which seems to fit her somewhat confusing character history anyway).
So, if I’m right, then we might know what’s in Verin’s letter to Alanna: the explanation of how Alanna could slip the Dark Oath in the same way Verin did (I assume that the loophole is something Verin kinda figured out and not a well-known fact to the Blak Ajah). Sure, it looks as though she held off for a photo-finish, but maybe her wounds left her too addled to do her thing, and it was not until Nyn stablized her that she was able to do the unbonding. (Which happily increases the importance of Nynaeve being there at the Pit of Doom!)
Sorry if this has been raised at, like, Theoryland or something…I’m not a frequent follower of other WoT sites at the moment!
Ok, based on what I’ve read on this thread… assuming Nakomi was the one outside the pit oh Dhoom… totally WILD theory:
What if Egwene became “One” with the pattern, as someone read, and SHE is Nakomi?
It did occur to me that sorrelia was ;) I beleieve theres something about Nakomi that even reminds Avienda of her…
Just finished it an hour ago.
I’m wondering how many “parts” the reread of The Last Battle chapter will take.
Some Thoughts/responses:
@215…Blood on the rocks..mundane indeed. I don’t think anyone got that one right.
re: Callandor. As it turned out, when Rand saw Callandor and the Dragon Banner at Paaran Disen in his flashback at the time that the Aes Sedai were getting ready to create the Eye of the World, the implication becomes that Callandor was created specifically for the Dragon to reseal the Dark Ones prison and that the Banner,Horn and Well of Power were all put in place to support that process. The Aes Sedai who did the foretelling was quite a fortuneteller.
@254…Lan thinks that Demandred is the more skilled swordsman during his fight.
@260…the FS were the DOs’ minions and with him (it) sealed away had to go. Though neither Graendal nor Moghedien are dead. In Fantasy that means there is always a possibility that they could be freed from their respective traps and cause mischief in the future.
re: Bao the Wyld…Hadn’t thought of that but perhaps those feelings of love were what made him crazy all of a sudden.
@262…Damn..Could it be that Nakomi was a manifestation of the Creator, because..Damn.
Just finished this book after finishing rereading the whole series. Since this is my second full reread: ~20,000 words… I’m wondering where I get my undergrad degree in WoTism. Don’t think I’ve read 20,000 words on another single subject and not gotten a degree… srsly.
Though a few scenes and some writing felt forced, I loved Mat/Rand scene and Lan/Tam scenes. The Forsaken were actually well written villians especially the Graendal.
And for everyone else re: Fain taken out like an Itch complaints… would you have preferred him to take the death wind on into the cavern and kill everyone off? Should Matrim, already heavily featured throughout the book, have been given a badly paced LONG chapter right at the end? I guess they could have killed him off sooner but then I wouldn’t have felt the impending DOOM knowing windyFain was on his way. So maybe a little too quick but in retrospect I can’t completely fault the result.
Re: The notDeath of Faile. Feel free to write into your book that he found her dead and then go read emoPerrin Books 8-10. Or even just lostPerrin on the snow moping with Tallanvor excerpt. From my PoV, I think Perrin already got enough EMO in this series. His movements in this book were a bit of a long padded arc but at least he found and let fully loose his inner phase-wolf.
I don’t agree even putting aside that genocide != slavery. Whilst her anger and personal animus at being captured and forced to be a damane are human and understandable, there is little to admire about such a deficit of statesmanship and absence of self-control at such a critical time. Stridency and forceful diplomacy are one thing but naked hostility and name-calling are not productive.
Egwene was lucky that indulging her dander like this didn’t jeopardise the whole Seanchan alliance. Only Tuon’s imperial possessiveness and her relationship with Mat kept the Seanchan in the war to save everyone’s butt. Her personal demons are not important enough compared to the fate of the world to justify such an outburst.
Seanchan slavery is pretty evil, but compared to the ultimate victory of the Dark, a temporary detente with the Seanchan is trivially morally necessary. Egwene needed to suck it up and make her points in a civil manner. Do you think Roosevelt and Churchill would be speaking to Stalin (a far worse monster than Tuon) like that at Yalta?
@89 blindillusion: I didn’t read it as Perrin needing to be the melding of two “souls” to miove between TAR and the waking world. It needed him finding a way to wake/shift and sleep/shift respectively using his talent as a male Dream-Walker
@261 insectoid: So size really does matter? ;)
352:
Demandred was not even best at what can only be called a hobby in the age of legends, Belal and LTT being his betters – and maybe others.
Which, as with being a general, you will recall, he practiced for centuries. The War of the Shadow itself lasted something on the order of 200 years, if I recall correctly, and Demandred was a general on both sides for, I would assume, the duration. Thus, 2oo years vs. 30 years… well, you get the idea.
@353 – Broken Crown is the name of the crown of Saldaea. Faile as Queen satisfies the prophecy.
Syllabus@367
Do you have a cite for that. I believe Be’lal stated LTT was a better swordman once, but I don’t have a reference for him being better than Demandred. Also, I believe Demandred says he has improved since they last sparred.
Unlearned lesson: Deploying Aes Sedai and their Warders on distant parts of a large battlefield is a really, really bad idea. They’re extremely lucky to have avoided some even more extreme failure cascades.
Contra Leigh, I don’t think that it’ll be the Aeil who come into conflict with the Seanchan. They’ve completely sacrificed all hope for those captives forever, to change that future, and the Wise Ones will likely live long enough for the issue to become moot. No, it’ll likely be the Asha’man.
Because I’m not even sure that their male-channeller-detection method still works post-taint, and it can’t be kept going socially speaking post-taint (and with Min having the office that requires her to publicly reveal inconvenient truths and be believed by everyone, keeping the cleansing or the sul’dam secret secret just isn’t going to happen)
So they’re going to have no real options other than to re-invent male collars, which will in turn lead to a real war with the Black Tower. Also, they have Moggie and are keeping her alive, which is a bad, bad idea. Being still nearly immortal, given enough time she’ll find a way to top from the bottom even with all of the collar’s limitations.
I so much wished to see Egwene again with the Heroes of the Horn! It would have washed away a little of the sadness to see her in such a great company!
Though I finished the book last Tuesday night, I haven’t yet separated the words from the emotions that reading this last book gave me. Grateful Joy and biting sadness that it is over. I will post my thoughts on it soon, but wanted to point out a few things that people have mentioned more than once.
We don’t know that Egwene wasn’t called back as a Hero of the Horn, she probably was in fact, But, that would have cheapened her going out in a blaze of glory against Forsaken M’hael. she just would have been another Birgit/Jain farstrider appearance after her MOA. That would have sucked. As for her new weave and peoples insistance that it is stupid…. Hello, have we all been reading the same books for years. Our heroes have been all about creating new weaves for the whole series. If there is something that unweaves the pattern, it is simple logic that there is something that will weave it too.
The war of the Shadow only lasted for 10 years, about 90 years after the drilling of the DO prison.
I believe Nakomi is/was the Avatar of the Creator. we only have in world testimony that the creator doesn’t help, but that isn’t the case at all. The Creator doesn’t mess with free will, that isn’t to say he doesn’t/ won’t help once a person has chosen ( Thus why I believe Rand is rewarded with his newfound power at the end
Some more general observations:
I loved the final evolution of Perrin’s mastery of T’A’R. I think one of Brandon’s real strengths is around supernatural mechanics and this didn’t disappoint. Perrin’s stolid character and deliberate thinking makes him a natural T’A’R savant, and once he was liberated of his burdens of care he was a real monster.
Funny how channelling is almost a handicap in T’A’R when you think about it.
Also, take that Wise Ones and your misandrist presumptions about T’A’R!
I wasn’t at all sure Faile was going to be safe, so it was a very big relief that Perrin got to be reunited her. She saved the Horn with Olver which saved him and the whole world. Go Faile!
Re: Thom
Wow, that scene with him composing and killing was awesome. Thom is such a badass. Perfect.
Re: Min
Totally called (along with the rest of the fandom) that Min would figure out the big secret with Callandor’s flaw.
Re: Fain
Unlike some others I didn’t feel this was too anti-climatic. It did happen suddenly, but I felt the threat posed by him was acute, and Mat was really the only one who could have ignored the mists.
It was interesting that he was killed by the ruby dagger. At first I thought it was odd that his body blackened up, as he has licked cuts from that dagger before without ill-effects. But I guess what really happened was that the blade pieced his heart, killing him, and then his inner evil consumed the corpse.
HE LIVES! HE LIVES! No, not Rand. Me. Whew! Talk about empathy with characters in a story. The Last Battle left me weak and completely exhausted — several times.
The construction of this chapter was incredibly intense. Everything happening at once and following the action on multiple fronts as well as Rand’s interaction with the Dark One. A complex, tight and effective weave. Just amazing. Every few hours I would awake from the dream to realize that my body was just stiff with tension — shaking with slight, invisible tremors. I would have to withdraw and fortify myself just to go on.
Brandon Sedai: Those were some powerful weaves. I bow to you.
In the past I would zoom through each of the new books to “see what happens.” Then I would read it again more slowly. Not this one. Just couldn’t do it. I wanted to make the experience last as long as possible. I didn’t want to skip over a single morsel. I even found myself backing up and re-reading particularly impressive passages.
A few things of note:
First tears (of joy) — the Ogier arrive – all of them!
Chapter icons — I loved turning the page and seeing a chapter icon that we haven’t seen for awhile (sometimes a long while). Lanfear (oh shit, what now?), the Horn (oh, yeah, oh yeah).
Knotai? — I read it as “no tie” but “not I” also seems like Mat.
p. 529 — “It was a thing of legends.” — What a way to start a chapter section! I held my breath. Rewarded with mega-awesomness.
Demandred’s entry — I’ll always see that enormous gateway with thousands of banners behind it. Holy shit!
Hinderstap — Ok, I sure didn’t see that coming. Never in a million years. Heh.
Bela — Did anyone doubt she would make it to the Last Battle, and would once again be a hero?
Wolfbrothers — Oh, man. I was so gratified that the wolves have Heroes too. I’m sure Bela will be a Hero of the Horn as well.
Tam — carrying the torch to the pyre. i love you man!
Lan — Just WOW. Just WOW. Superman ain’t got nothin’ on you.
Elayne’s babes: I immediately saw that Birgitte will be born as one of them. Gaidal? Why, he’s Olver, or course.
Rand’s pipe — I think it’s one of those ter’angreal that doesn’t require channeling. He’s free now as the Creator’s reward for a job well done. No need to channel, no t’a’r. Just a pipe that lights itself when filled. Sweet.
The Ending — CHOICE — exquisite.
Freelancer @@@@@ 198
Couldn’t have said it better. Thank you.
subwoofer
Missed you buddy!
Samadai @@@@@ 372
Nakomi as Avatar of the Creator – I like that! A nurturer.
Wolfmage @364
Roosevelt and Churchill may not speak as Egwene did, but then they had not been immersed in a pot of boiling water by Stalin, as Egwene had by Tuon’s minions. If they had, then yes, they might have spoken to Stalin as Egwene did to Tuon. Having never been immersed in a pot of boiling water myself, I don’t personally know how I might have acted upon meeting the perpetrator, or the boss of the perpetrators.
Syllabus@367
I still maintain that Lan should have been the better of the swordsmen. Demandred “practiced” a hobby for centuries. Swordsmanship could not have been as critical a skill for him as it was for Lan in life and death situations. Now, if Demandred had not been a channeler, he may have used it when death was on the line. But I doubt that came up much in Demandred’s life. Lan, on the other hand, has faced life and death situations hundreds of times where the sword is his chief skill to avoid death. Heck, I think Lan faced death with a sword in his hands hundreds of times in this book alone. Maybe you can say that Lan is the better swordsman of the two, because he is alive, and Demandred is dead. But considering Lan’s own POV where he said that Demandred was better, I had to disagree. I guess Lan proved me right, and himself wrong, but I would think he should have been better even without the sheathing maneuver.
Wolfmage @369
I think your question about the relative talents of swordmen in the age of legends is really directed to me, since syllabus was merely quoting me as to their status. I think that in Demandred’s POV earlier he had said that LTT had been the better swodsman in the age of legends. As to Be’lal. I thought that I had read somewhere that he was better than LTT with the sword, but I can’t prove it. But Be’lal has been dead for some time, so if Demandred’s extra practice over the past 2 years have not made him pass LTT after both of them have practiced for hundreds of years; and if Lan’s POV that Demandred is the better swordsman of the two of them is also true; then I guess the rank goes thusly: Rand (with 2 hands and LTT’s memory) > Demandred > Lan.
Thought the story ended as well as can be expected. Probably my biggest gripe in the storyline has to do w/ Lord Luc’s irrelevance, and I thought when Isam shifted to the real world he becomes Luc, so i thought he would have shifted from Isam to Luc and Luc to Isam when shifting between the wolf dream and real world during Perrins final chase…guess not.
@374
I think Bridgitte was actually being born to Melaine. It was noted a couple of times that she was very near her time.
I too used to think Olver was Gaidel. That that age difference makes sense in light of the age difference that usually lay between them. But another poster up above said that Jordan denied this. And another poster reminded us of Grady’s ugle kid ;) Which is a great catch and makes sense.
(Sorry to the folk who’s names I forgotten).
Man-O@374
C’mon Dude! You’re way too regular a reader to have overlooked the dozens of times this has been refuted by a direct RJ quote.
With that said, glad you brought up what Birgitte said as it specifies when one of the Heroes gets spun out. Per Birgitte, it’s at the time of a Babe’s birth. Thus she can’t be one of Elayne’s babes since they have roughly three months to go.
Unfortunately, this also casts quite a bit of doubt on my pet theory that Elayne’s babes are Shivan and Calian. Those two are NOT mentioned as coming back when Olver blows tha Horn. Originally that got me all excited thinking they were Elayne’s babes, but now it seems they’ve already been born somewhere else – probably quite recently as they are supposed to signify the end of an Age.
Repeating the “wow” of everyone who’s come before me… because… wow.
Still processing, because I just finished, but overall I’m pleased. Thank you, Team Jordan!
Lots of teary, goosebumpy moments! Lots of fun circularity (“wheelish” heh), plenty of didn’t-see-that-coming moments! Oooh!
And the “let’s just hack Elayne’s babies out of her” scheme… uh… wow… THAT went to a gruesome place I don’t normally attribute to WoT… O_o
Alivia… I really liked the way she “helped Rand die.” It felt… right.
Though apparently I am a cynic, because every main character who we thought was dead, but we were mistaken (like EVERY one, because let’s face it, even Lan’s death would have been fitting since he told Nynaeve he would only give her widow’s weeds BACK IN BOOK ONE!), I could have lived happily with having them actually being dead… Yeah… ??
Perhaps “cynic” is too strong… “realist”? Hm…
But to echo many again, thank you Team Jordan, and thank you, Leigh! :)
Forkroot: tee hee! I wondered how soon someone would say that. I couldn’t resist.
Gah! Pwned – by Man-O-Manetheran no less. I should have known better.
A Fox@377
Hmmm, interesting idea about Melaine. Good suggestion.
OTOH I can’t believe you’ve read 14 books and still call her “Bridgette”?? Unless you’ve decided to pull my chain like Man-O did.
(And that also goes for the 1/2 dozen of you in this thread that think the kid’s name is “Oliver”)
I am serious about my Rand’s pipe theory though!
Alphaleonis@375
Notwithstanding that Tuon wasn’t her tormenter, Renna, I’m not discounting that she embodies the regime that gave her an extremely difficult and traumatic experience to deal with. I acknowledged that. I’m simply saying regardless of that, the Light’s victory depended on Seanchan participation and she risked a lot by indulging some cathartic vitriol by railing against Tuon.
Perhaps she was overcome by her experience, but if so, she was being ruled by her emotions at a time of crisis and great risk which is kinda antithetical to the Aes Sedai ideal that she embodies.
Egwene generally keeps herself cloaked in the trappings and formalities of her office, and she even carries this so far that she thinks of herself in the third person. But here she lacked this formality and detachment and it was supremely dangerous for the Light.
Now, maybe the maxim no harm no foul is appropriate here, but it made me think it is lucky Cadsuane is taking over because there is no way the Dragon’s Peace could work if the strategy was confrontation and insult instead of uneasy detente, containment and cultural soft power influence to change their ways.
…also my disenchantment with Min’s character nicely memorialized in AMOL with more of the same type of things that i’ve hated about her character arc. Seems like she’s just a lost puppy any other WOT character can pick up and use for a time and she’s like “ummm, ok”. 1st w/ Moraine, then Suian at the Tower, then Gareth Bryn(ok thats a little different), Then the Salidar Aes Sedai, Then Rand, Then a semi-attachment to Cadsuane, then finally she’s scooped up and titled by Fortuona…and although she shows some spunk throughout the series, i just hate how her character is just passed around and she readily goes with the flow…just made her seem weak.
I never personally understood the dislike of Min’s character.
Though she doesn’t get a huge amount of screentime or any big battles – she achieves two momentous things in aMoL.
1. She figures out the full nature of the flaws in Callandor and thus gives Rand the ultimate key to winning the Last Battle.
2. Regardless of how she got recruited, Min is now placed high up in Tuon’s court and she is in a position of tremendous influence which will no doubt be immensely important in reforming the Empire. That seems pretty worthwhile and important to me.
Few people can match that kind of contribution in terms of winning the Last Battle and ensuring a viable future.
Not everyone has to exercise agency by imposing themselves on the world. Min’s deal is that she takes people as they are both in terms her personality and ability.
A thought on Cadsuane as the Amyrlin:
She might be a good choice as transitional Amyrlin, to prepare for a more dramatic change. The following Amrlyin should be Logain.
Yup – you read it right.
saidin has been cleansed. If there’s one recurring theme throughout the WoT it’s that things go much better when men and women work together.
Back in the AoL, there was no artificial division between men and women – they were all Aes Sedai. (Yes, the “Fateful Concord” caused a split at the very end of the Age.)
It makes zero sense to continue erecting a separate “Black Tower” when there is a presumably undamaged facility in the middle of the most beautiful, Ogier build city in the world. (Also, *ouch*, there’s a lot of available room in the White Tower now.)
It would obviously take some time for everyone to get comfortable with the merger, but Androl and Pevara have shown that not is it only possible to overcome your distrust of the “other side”, but the sum is truly greater than the parts.
The suggestion for Logain to follow Cadsuane is much in the same vein as Egwene choosing Silviana as a unifying move. If the WT organization continues (Ajahs, Keeper, etc.) then it would probably be a good idea for the Keeper to be female.
Of course all of this presumes that Logain fulfills Min’s vision and continues to “mellow” a bit. I personally cut him quite a bit of slack in AMoL considering what he must have endured at the hands of Taim.
We’ve seen before AMoL that he is basically a good guy. E.g burning Toveine’s instructions from Elaida is one example of a pretty tolerant, far-sighted person.
Of course another candidate might be Androl – that would require the merged WT to be more like the Wise Ones and disregard someone’s strength in the power when assessing their qualities for leadership. A bit more of a stretch, but who knows?
Two things I really liked about it (out of many, and some flaws I’ll leave for another time):
(1) Games with Gateways! Lava river gateways, reconnaisance gateways, message passing gateways, tiny invisible audio-only gateways, shoot-yourself-in-the-back-of-the-head gateways, insta-cannon gateways, escape-the-exploding-building gateways, and so much more. Once you let yourself go full-on Portal, there’s a lot of fun to be had. And yes, I know that this just raises some more awkward questions (like, why not try the lava gateway trick again? many, many times?) but I’m willing to let suspension of disbelief and plot necessity carry the day on that one.
(Although… I wonder how long it will take Androl and some of the proto-geeks in Rand’s school to realize they have the ingredients for perpetual motion machines. One water wheel, one gateway from right below to right above, and voila, cheap green energy for just the price of channeler chow. :-)
(2) The ending – and its open-ended ness. I’ll admit, part of me does wish we’d gotten a lengthy “happily ever after”, a la Tolkien or Eddings. (OK, maybe not so happily for everyone in Tolkien’s case). But more of me is glad to have it left open like it was. No single written ending with all the details could satisfy everyone. Leaving some things ambiguous means we can all craft our own versions of those next scenes in our heads and hearts. Let a thousand winds blow, a thousand beginnings bloom.
Now, in my own version of the Extended Epilogue, Rand may travel down his escapist road for some months, sure. The poor guy’s earned a break; his new body may be whole but his mind and soul are no less seared. But Rand won’t go down that road forever, not with babes on the way. Lots and lots of babes, in due time, given the multiplicity of mothers. In some ways, Rand may be 400, but he’s also only 20, and has a lot of growing up to do, and I see him rising to that in time, learning to be as good a father to his children as Tam was to him. Speaking of which, Tam, now there’s a guy who knows how to keep a secret. Two decades a hidden swordsmaster, two decades raising a kid that only he knew was adopted. He seems like the sort of guy that a son could trust to stay nice and quiet about certain facts…
And so that’s how the next bit goes in my head. Doesn’t have to in yours. The Wheel weaves as we all will, now, each in our own Dream.
@384
Geez – Sorry you don’t care for Min’s style. Style is subjective, I’d rather look at accomplishments. Let’s take a quick look at what she did in the story:
1) Saved Siuan and Leane from execution at Elaida’s hands
2) Got to Cadsuane in time to clean up Nynaeve’s mess at Far Madding
3) Provided comfort and acceptance to Rand through his darkest period.
4) Saved Fortuona’s life (OK – Not everyone views this as an accomplishment. For them I ask: “You’d prefer Galgan as the head of the Seanchan?”)
And there was something else … hmmm… oh yeah.
She figured out how Rand needed to use Callandor to save the friggin Universe.
Other than that, she didn’t do much.
forkroot@386
Interesting idea, and I think it’s suggestive that the original Tamyrlin position was most probably gender-neutral.
I agree that Cadsuane is best considered as a temporary safe pair of hands to right the ship. She is like the experienced person everyone respects that you pick in a parliamentary system after the party has suffered a disasterous loss. Nobody expects that person to form government, but they will be important to recovering the party.
Awesome Book
Better than I hoped it would be and I had high expectations. Yes I missed a few things I wished had been in the ending, but it had so much I hoped to see and more that I didn’t think of.
Had several moments where I had to set the book down and come back to it a few moments later. Egwene and Suian stick in my mind the most.
Matt’s scenes couldn’t have been written better. Wish there would be series just about him and Fortuna. So much potential there.
Have not been a big Perrin/Faile fan, but actually enjoyed them in this book.
I thought the battle between Rand/Dark One was written extremely well. It was not the way I thought the battle between them would go, but it totaly works.
Thank you to Sanderson and Harriett for keeping the series going on…. and of course Thank you to Robert Jordan for the countless hours of enjoyment.
ps. I LOVE MIN!!!
MoM@382
I can see the t-shirt now. I saved the WoTverse and all I got was this lousy Thinka’Light pipe…
:::Shakes Fist::: Nakomi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CireNaes!
OMG! I love it. We’ve been talking about a t-shirt for the Re-Read gang at Jordon.con. Braid_Tug, Ways, Tektonica! What do you think?
Hi Man-O! Try some chicken noodle soup. It is good for what ails you:)
Thanks folks for reminding me of some excellent points.
First off, Alpha@352 reminded me of the exchange between Eggs and Tuon. That was gold. Egwene telling Tuon her pants were on fire and that if she was such hot stuff, put a leash on and lets check the truth out. Hehehe. Too bad Mat got in the way of that one, I’da like to have seen the outcome.
Min also gave Tuon some smackdown. Her royalness or no, Min really told Tuon not to be such a tool and abuse Min’s gift. Good times:)
Damn skippy Bela is a Hero! Hopper and all the wolves too. They made the ultimate sacrifice. And got to whoop some darkhound butt as a reward.
As for folks suggesting Egwene is a hero, question: Are there any channelers amongst the HotH? As far as I know I thought only LTT get’s spun out again. Everyone else is Forsaken.
Cadsuane is an excellent choice for Amyrlin. I don’t know how much longer she will live, but she has gained the respect and trust of the Aiel and the Windfinders have a healthy fear of her.
The Aiel. I don’t see them causing a storm over the Seanchan. They have a whack of t’oh for the pointy teethed dudes that channeled. Perhaps letting the Seanchan keep the WO’s is how they meet that t’oh.
Woof™.
A couple of things I wondered about (may have missed while reading). Did anyone catch the gray man that went after Tuon? Is he still following his last directive? How many gray men are left?
Did Mat give Galad his original foxhead medallion or the copy that Elaine made?
Seanchan vs Aiel – the Aiel have already commented that they will give the Seanchan a year and a day. Don’t know if Avi’s future vision will change that.
re: the Black Ajah, I think that Egwene via Verin got most of them, and the rest are either Dreadlords or lying in a pile behind Thom (his nonchalance while figuring out his epic song cracked me up).
dsolo@394
It was the copy so more powerful weaves would overpower it.
74. ChrisBeckstrand
I have to totally agree with you that this book felt like bad fan fiction.
Now to be fair to BS, the amount of plot threads that needed to be resolved were simply too numerous to be done well without many more books (and I believe even Jordan would have been painted into a corner on that).
I thought the prologue and first chapter were done well; along with the Androl/Pevera chapters (at least their interactions and motivations, the actual resolution is lame).
Any time we got to see an actual coming together of Light-side characters, it seemed rushed. Character are given tasks just to have something to do, while others seem to do things because they know they need to be in another scene later in the book.
DEMANDRED
Apparently to be a master of war and strategy in this book is basically accomplished by stating that you are and not by actually being smart.
Despite Jordan himself telling us how absolutely asinine it is to think that a general would participate in a pointless duel we get not 1 but 3 such occurrences. Is it about honor or testing his sword skill? Sorry, but since he “cheats” in all of the duels that can’t be it.
And leaving every single one of them alive after the duel . . . uhmm . . . yeah that doesn’t happen.
Managing the war he decides to go after their army instead of pillaging the various countries or settling in at Shayol Ghul (where Rand has to actually go at some point).
MOIRAINE
Her return was absolutely pointless. The only apparent contribution she had was to help during the negotiation of the Dragon’s Peace; which amounted to her regurgitating a few lines of the prophecies. Cadsuane or even the Jesus-Rand aura could have done the same.
Not only was this an absolute waste of the character, but it pretty much ruins the heroism of her rescue in the previous book.
FAILE
Why is she carrying the Horn? The reasons for it are completely fabricated especially since Perrin is there at the time and can give them Mat’s location.
GAUL
Why is he involved in the dream fight besides just to keep him on screen? His presence in TAR makes no sense and his survival during Perrin’s absence was not believable to me.
LOGAIN
Why even include any story of him if the only thing you do is make him an unsympathetic character who really doesn’t feel deserving of any glory or reward.
FAIN
He may not have been anyone’s favorite character but at least attempt some sort of drama to a confrontation. This was the equivalent of the gholam being taken out by slipping on a banana peel and falling into a stedding.
Nightbaron @346
Isam never met Cyndane, so he wouldn’t recognize her in her newer body. And Isam was taken away from Graendal by Shaidar Haran’s order, due to her last failure to get Perrin. They wouldn’t give him under her orders again as Hessalam. It’s Cyndane.
M-o-M @374
Elayne is still a couple of months short of term, Birgitte is going to be born within the hour. It could be Melaine.
D-Mac @376
No, it’s a common misconception. Slayer is able to change identity when shifting worlds, but can become either in either place. When he intends to assassinate Rand and Min in Far Madding, he notes with satisfaction that he had become Luc as he stepped out of t’a’r. This suggests that the identity shift might happen somewhat randomly, if he doesn’t specifically will one or the other. Also, he was definitely Isam when he killed Joiya and Amico in the Stone of Tear.
D-Mac @384
On the contrary, I believe that nobody knows better than Min the saying Moiraine loved so much, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. She goes with the flow is precisely the right phrase to use. She has surrendered to the idea that her talent will help the cause of the Light, and is to be employed however the moment provides. She certainly put Fortuona in her place about abusing it, and other than that, she let it be of value. It’s the End Game of all time, and she gets it that you can’t be selfish and choosy about how you are used.
@204. Louis Theodore Tellman “I cried for a fictional horse.”
You and me both along with many of our fellow enthusiasts I see.
Logain’s physical description and temperament resemble what we know of LTT more closely than Rand. I think he was a lot closer to being the Dragon Reborn than anyone realizes. Maybe the Pattern, the Creator or LTT/the Dragon himself noticed this and made a last minute substitution, just to try and dodge a bullet prophesy or something kind of like Avi and the Aiel.
@198. Freelancer Awesome point! Succinctly made.
@200. Farstrider2) “Someone else (Tektonica?) mentioned above the issue with “Egwene is dead” catching her eye as she turned the page. It happened to me too. I felt like someone had punched me in the stomach, and then had to read the next page and a half already knowing she was going to die. Her blaze of glory was magnificent and perfect, though I loved her throughout the series.”
I had a similar experience but was not jarred or bothered by it from a technical standpoint.From a “oh know not our girl?!” standpoint yes. In general my copy of AMoL is much better production and editing wise than my copy of ToM.
“Exquisite is a nice word, but I prefer Ineffable. My nerves are frayed, my eyes are red, I’m exhausted. I feel like I have lost several dear friends. But I am oh so grateful to RJ, BS, Harriet and all others for sharing with me the Last Battle in High Chant.”
Couldn’t state it better.
@251. scook
ROFLOL
@subwoofer “You find a good woman, you stand by her, she is worth moving Heaven and earth, and a really heavy horse for.“
So funny and so true.
285. theemptyone
Looking forward to reading that!
@290. Grant C Had similar thoughts that the last battle made dumai’s wells look like a skirmish.
@298 rstar
15 including the prequel but who is counting and yes I think we did!
@332. snihed
Excellent point! He did have Harriet, Maria and the rest of team Jordan though.
Edit for clarity
(I had had lesser hopes of perhaps seeing not just the Superboys or just the Supergirls, but all the original Two Rivers contingent, the ones who started it all—Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, Lan, and Moiraine—together in a room before the end, and I really didn’t get that. But that’s perhaps more understandable.)
IIRC, only Lan was not in the middle of Field of Merillor.
Nynaeve was with Rand’s side of the meeting. Egwene on the opposite. Perrin was there, and when Moiraine enter, Mat was around who overheard some. Thom was not mentioned, but I assume he is around Moiraine since coming back.
I love Rand and Mat’s one up sequence, so awesome-sauce!
Sanctume@4-hunny
Nope – Mat was not there. He was on his way to Ebou Dar. He was deliberately avoiding Rand as long as he could.
Also, Thom is mentioned briefly (so he was there.)
@401 thanks forkroot, I probably fast read that early part about Mat.
Gateways are just OP (overpowered)!
– Gateway Battle Videos: from floor, to table, and eventually wall mounted battle viewing. It’s nice how using that tech improved within a week.
– Vortex should have been used more, or just a simple line gateway 30 feet accross but move along the trolloc lines.
– Andol could have dropped more lava showers. Or better yet, flooded the field with ocean water over the trollocs camps since they hate water.
– Aviendha could have done her gateway unweaving nuke attack sooner and more often.
– The peek a boo gateway cannon trick should have been used as first strike instead of being bait at the Heights in the beginning.
So many great, emotional moments.
1) Rand singing the Song in front of Tuon
2) When the gateway opened on the army of Sharans – like, wait, what? The Shadow has an army that can move through gateways now? SHIIIII..
3) The Hinderstap moment almost made me tear up, oddly. Its just nice that those poor people can in some small way fight back against the evil that cursed them.
4) EVERYTHING with Loial in it.
5) The Perrin/Slayer battle was the highlight of all the fighting scenes, imo… perfectly drawn out, tons of tension, incredibly satisfying. (Unlike some – Mat/Fain, anyone?)
6) The moment when Rand stops seeing his list of dead as burdens, but as heroes. Egwene’s line “You have embraced death – embrace mine as well” (sic.) was perfect, and made me tear up in a way that her actual death scene did not.
7) Mat’s everything. I love how he wins over Galgan and all the others. It gives you hope for the impact that he will have on the whole Empire – I think Matrim Cauthon will be VERY good for the Seanchan. Also, Demandred’s desperate “hurr, it MUST be Lews Therin I’m fighting, no one from this age could POSSIBLY be this awesome.” Priceless.
343. Third
Very clever re: TV series. Though I think the tropes could be easily inverted – just have all the Seanchan saying “Yes Massa” to Tuon when they prostrate themselves, and watch all PC hell break loose. :)
348.forkroot
You owe me 1/3 :)
349.Loialson
Really? And here I was hoping for more Androl & Pevara. Though I’ll eagerly lap up any remaining WoT material.
372.Samadai
374.Man-0-Manetheran
and others re: Nakomi
At first I also liked to think of her as the Creator, or an Avatar thereof – but there’s the question of the appearance she chooses.
Why does she appear as a grandmotherly Aiel woman to Aviendha? There are good reasons for this – this is the form to which Aviendha will be most receptive. Ok, that’s fine. But why does she appear in the same for to Rand? By the same principle, shouldn’t she choose a form to which he will be most receptive?
@general Regarding Lanfear – did someone forget about her cour’souvra? She channels next to Moridin without showing any sign of pain (Moggy told us that doing so is very painful). I keep wondering to what extent her actions are her own, and whether it’s possible that Moridin broke her cour’souvra and is controlling her. It would be one explanation how she gets into his dreams all the time, and why Moridin kept her cour’souvra whereas he returned Moggy’s.
That said, the motivations in her final scene – including adopting her old form (for Perrin?) sound more like Lanfear than Moridin.
Regarding Moridin – see how many backup plans the man had just to ensure his final death. He has Slayer to kill Rand via T’A’R. He has Alanna tied up and bleeding to death. He has men assigned to tear Rand’s children out of the womb. He has a dagger to stab his hand and take Callandor.
Though to be honest, Moridin’s bind has a few holes in it. Not happy with life? Balefire yourself, so the DO can’t transmigrate your soul. Afraid to be reborn in 500 years? So what, you don’t have memories of your previous life when you’re reborn, just enjoy it and live like everyone else. You’re afraid to regain them at some point? Well, when you do, see step (1) again.
On the whole a very satisfying end to the series. Sure, I could have stood to see a few more loose ends tied up, and whoa!, but a lot of characters bought the farm (so much for those complaints).
But for now, I need to go through it again (once or twice) soon to make sure I didn’t miss anything.
Have not read all the comments yet.
Overall, I really loved the book and the ending!
I am however DISTRESSED: I don’t know the color of anyone’s dress in all of Tarmon Gaidon!!
Serious question, though: Does anyone know what happened to the Army from Murandy? While reading the parts of the LB at the FoM, I assumed they were at Thakan’dar…but they were not, unless they were utterly destroyed early on.
Leigh, I enjoyed that review *mightily* and I hope you read these comments, I do, because what you said about Lan — he is my favorite too! Made me grin huge and want to geek out over him with you! lol
And Egwene. Please write something – please, please write something. I don’t even know how to cope with it yet. I need some catharsis. She was my favorite girl – it was Nynaeve at first (and it still sort of is?) I can’t pick between them (and why did Nynaeve DO NOTHING the whole book? GAH) anyway, I would love to read what you say about Egwene. Please do.
I didn`t understand the plan to rip the babies from Elayne-other than general evil. So Moridin needed their blood for some purpose?
On first reading it felt like that was put there to make the point that Min`s viewing doesn`t offer any protection to Elayne herself.
I don`t think we see blood-magic used anywhere else- even the blood on the rocks at Shayol Ghul turned out to be low-key.
(Except, now I think about it, blood was needed to trigger the Bloodknives- d’oh!)
So what was the womb slicing meant to be for?
Okay, so I re-read the last few chapters again last night and I am having some difficulties I hope you guys can help me with…
1) I am completely convinced that was Nakomi in the cavern as Rand is running out after sealing the Bore – she is described as Aiel, unfamiliar but with graying hair, and I mean, who the eff else could be just chilling there while the place collapsed, telling Rand he is doing the right thing?? It seems she is indeed the “Agent of the creator” or whatever, and Rand seems to realize this as well, in how he speaks to her about his Aelfinn questions and expects her to understand what he is talking about..
BUT — I don’t fully understand what he meant about “asking the Aelfinn the wrong question” – as far as I remember, the only question we KNOW Rand asked was “How can I win the Last Battle?” — was he referring to this, or a different question about “choice”?
And most bizarrely of all, how exactly did he switch bodies with Moridin!? He must have been himself (in his current body) coming out of the cavern, carrying Moridin’s body — but how did they switch? It couldn’t be Mask of Mirrors or he wouldn’t be able to feel/use his left hand. Did they switch when the Bore was sealed during the Balefire melding??? HELP PLEASE!!!
** Sorry correction I meant BECAUSE of the Balefire melding complicated somehow DURING the Bore sealing
@409 – Just speculation on my part, but maybe Moridin wanted the babies brought to SG in order to drive Rand over the edge into dispair…another way the DO could win.
So it ended. Few hours ago I finished AMOL. Since then I read Leigh’s “review” (no carcasm, just it wasn’t what one would call a conventional review), and about the first 100 of the comments.
I can’t say right now about how I feel, in detail. Can’t really put my thoughts together. I appreciate how fellow commenters put in detail likes/dislikes, etc. I hope I do it a little later.
I certainly feel sad that it is over. Totally empathise with everyone who feels something little lacking, now that WOT story is over. Actually, as I write this and think about it more, I feel it more keenly… Well, there are hundreds more comments to read, and a few to write. Then there’s the re-read and the Encyclopedia. I hope it ties a few more lose ends.
I’m sad that James (Robert Jordan) isn’t among us right now, I hope he watches from above. Big thanks to him. Big thanks to Brandon who did fantastic job, given the enormity of the task. And just as big a thanks to Harriet and the rest of Team Jordan.
PS How you guys manage to read it, remotely properly, in 10-12 hours!
@martytargaryen
That makes sense- though they definitely wanted the babies alive.
This is horrible to think about, real evil, in a creepy, give-me-nightmares way. More so for me than anything else that happens- though Olver trapped by Trollocs was seriously scary as well.
Valmar-
I`m with you , it took me four or five days to read – though I didn`t try to rush. There`ll never be another time I read without knowing how it`s all going to end. But there`s no way I could have read this in a few hours.
I need to do a slow re-read now to take everything in, I’m sure there`s more I`ve missed.
One tihng I expected to see was Hopper as a HotH. Someone mentioned that they beleived that Hopper was one, but I think that it should have been mentioned.
Otherwise, this is the most intense book I have read. It was excellent.
It is 12:20 PM on a Tuesday and I’m just wonderin’ if there will be a post of any kind from Leigh relative to AMOL. I realize it’s too early for the formal re-read, but we’ve reached 400+ comments on the spoiler review, and many of us are still reading through the book for the first time (job, grand-kids, spouse, etc.). About half-way through and getting a LITTLE bored with the battle scenes with an (apparantly) endless supply of trollocs. Really, I’m starting to skim blood/gore scenes (although I realize this IS Tarmon Gaidan) in favor of dialog where significant information can be gleaned. Hoping to see something analytical from Leigh in an hour or so . . .
@413 I ordered my book Tuesday from Amazon and arrived Wednesday, and I did not start reading until that evening after work. Read at work during my 1 hour lunch break, and evenings after dinner until 1-2 am. Then my Saturday and Sunday was a blurr of no chores, just reading, eating, reading, and napping. I plowed throug The Last Battle chapter Sunday until 2 am, and finished the rest of the book last night on Monday.
And then spent another good hour reading this review and comments. And sneaking some more here while on break at work. :)
My future hubby and I are both huge fans, and bought only one copy of A Memory of Light. He let me read first. I held back none of my reactions, and explained to him that:
-When I laughed, it was because Mat was being hilarious. Seriously, his one-liners are epic. Talmanes is damn funny, too. I laughed a fair number of times while reading.
-When I went, “Oooh,” it was because it was clear someone was either going to kick the bucket, or do something ridiculously amazing.
-When I wriggle in excitement, it was for the battle descriptions, which are always a joy to read in this series.
Egwene’s sacrifice had me sobbing my heart out. Bela’s death was sad, too. But Bela was the horse that carried Egwene out of the Two Rivers. I should’ve seen it coming.
I’m in the anti-Gawyn camp. He made yet another reckless decision and paid for it. I do think he redeemed himself by revealing to Galad that Rand is his brother. It strengthened Galad’s resolve. Still, I snickered when Demandred/Bao said to him, “…your pathetic brother? The dead one, I mean.”
Still not convinced Alanna was BA. Verin could have been under orders to send her up north, and Alanna fell into Moridin’s hands. Also, her POVs imply that she’s not evil, just impulsive and emotional.
Speaking of emotional, Nynaeve is my favorite character, and I’m fine with her relatively limited role here. She earned her keep, as she always does, PLUS she gets her oily bohunk of a husband, the incomparable Lan. Mat’s yelling about how awesome Lan is mirrored by feelings perfectly.
I did guffaw when Nynaeve suspected Rand was alive, went to the injured Aviendha, and straight out said, “I came to you first because you can’t run away.” omg she’s the best.
Did Faile need to live? Yeah, for Perrin to have his happy ending. I’m glad emo-wolfboy finally became halfway decent, but I agree with the others in this thread that it would’ve been more poignant if his choice to save Rand ended up costing him his wife. But then again, characters tend to die in pairs in the Wheel of Time. Still, personally: death to Faile!
Min = awesome. That is all.
All in all, I thought it was a satisfying read. I took my time reading it, too, to savor all the vivid imagery that the words evoked, like Loial singing and causing the Trolloc weapons to bloom.
Badass, my friends, badass.
Question to ponder re: Hinderstap and anyone else in the WoTiverse stuck in a non-(permannently) fatal Bubble of Evil: Do you suppose any who were alive as of the sealing of the DO get to resume their normal lives? Or is being trapped in the Bubble a death sentence regardless–the Hinderstap folks just somewhat deferred–but once the evil magic sustaining them (however awfully) goes away, their souls are released to ‘regular’ death? I hope, obviously, that they get to live, preferably with the Bubble of Evil taking with it the visceral memories of everthing they had done while under its effects. (That’s fantasy physics!)
I won’t comment fully until I’ve read everyone else’s comments, except to say if Jordan had survived to write this, it would have taken at least one more book. Maybe two. I can’t say I am happy about where BS cut corners to keep it small enough, though the pressures of doing so must have SUCKED… but I understand.
This was like Thom telling us a story in high chant, only to leave the dream and Lolial take up the story, while trying to be hasty.
For what it’s worth, I think Brandon did a fantastic job of wrapping up the series. And to anyone who feels like the ending is lacking something, I’d ask how much more do they want? It took ~2500 pages to bring this epic to the closure we finally have. I do understand the feeling though. Knowing that this is the end of the tale is bittersweet. It’s how I know I loved the series. I couldn’t wait for the end and yet I’m sad the end is here.
Some thoughts on what’s been brought up here.
I don’t think the Mat/Perrin stories were out of balance. Mat’s story isn’t about Fain; that’s just a thread to wrap up. It was a bit anti-climatic coming when it did, and it didn’t adress the part of that evil that was causing the wound in Rand’s side to never heal, but whatever. Mat’s story was him bringing the pieces together as a gambler and a general, to accept both what he is and what was forced into him. Perrin’s was learning when to seize control and when to let go.
I thought the “pissing contest” between Rand and Mat was perfect. Reuniting with a childhood friend you fall right back into the same patterns you had together as kids. That’s not contrived, it’s how life really works. It totally reminded me of conversations I’ve had with my best friend from High School now that we’re adults, and it made me smile.
Someone was complaining about how Gawyn went from being a great swordsman to one easily defeated. I don’t think he was suddenly a bad swordsman, just that he was missing the one concept that makes the difference between being great and true mastery. And that is perfectly consistent with the character. Gawyn is never able to see the forest for the trees. He is technically proficient at everything he does but never grasps the true meaning of why it’s done, like the student who knows all the facts but fails to understand the lesson. True masters of the sword like Tam and Lan don’t just know the right moves and perform them, they ARE the moves at a level that most swordsmen don’t even comprehend. Gawyn is probably better than 99.99% of all other fighters with a sword, but the gap between him and the true masters of the sword is still there.
Some parts of the story I especially liked:
How Rand only gets one of the three things he demanded at Merrilor, but gets everything he needed. It shows that he’s grown up enough to learn things don’t always go as planned, and that that can be a good thing because sometimes your plans are wrong. I’m somewhat curious which other Aes Sedai he was planning to take to the pit before Moraine came back.
Androl/Pevara story and the creative use of gateways and the OP in general.
Rand riding off into the sunset. Although I do wonder how the girls will catch up with him. Elayne is a queen and can’t just go wandering around. Min is stuck (probably) as the Truthsayer. Aviendha could probably get away from being a Wise One and go find him, maybe. I don’t think they’ll ever get the chance to “not take turns”. ;)
I’m sure there’s more but I’ll have to read it (and by “it” I mean the whole series) again first.
@419:
If they were immortal, wouldn’t it break the cyclic nature of the Wheel? If they can’t die and live in the Real world(unlike the HotH), then they would be there until the cycle ends, and teh age returns. So by my logic, they would have to die sometime, so the curse must end.
OK, here’s a Foretelling from Nicola way back in LoC. It’s one that has been discussed many, many times. I was one who took it literally, and waited for the moment in the story.
I guess the “boat” was figurative (all in the same boat), but the rest seems true, if not as dramatic a foretelling as we thought. “Edge of a blade” sounds dire, but it can also be just representative of balance and choice.
Well, it’s over now. I’ll say that much.
I finished two days ago, and I’ve had a day to mull over the events. I even wrote a big 6-page dissertation. I won’t post it here for everyone’s sake, but here’s the gist of it:
My view of the WoT books tends to be different from most fans. I’ve only ever read the series once, and as such, I’ve not been able to keep complete track of everything that’s happened. Picking up each new book was an exercise in trying to remember characters and plot points from previous entries every time. One of the major holes is the Forsaken. Lanfear, Graendal, and Moghedien may as well have all been the same character to me, and I don’t think I can even name any of the male Forsaken off the top of my head, despite having just read about two.
I also tend to have different views on the protagonist characters. Min and Lan seem to be fan favourites, but I’ve never really liked either of them. Meanwhile, most people seem to hate Faile, Cadsuane, and Tuon, but I actually like all three of them (and I truly loved the Mat/Tuon dynamic – it’s alright, I’m already packing my things for my exile).
So it was with some reluctance that I finally read AMoL. It almost felt like it I was just doing it to get it over with. I had stopped really enjoying the series at around the book 6 mark, and nearly quit outright at around book 10. I ultimately think that iwas worth my while to read the whole thing (series as well as book), though I’d say that AMoL is neither the best nor the worst we’ve gotten. It managed to convincingly end the series, but left a bunch of things dangling – strange, considering that ToM went about furiously tying up loose ends like an obsessive compulsive in a shoelace factory.
There were a bunch of little things that annoyed me, mostly with respect to certain characters being dropped from the face of the continent in the epilogue. There was also way too much writing about troop movements and not enough about character moments, and the book still spent too much time in the dream world for my tastes. These are all relatively minor, though. My major qualm is Egwene.
Now, I’m not one of those people who thinks that main characters shold never die, nor is Egwene my favourite character (though I did really like her Amyrilin arc). But Egwene is special. She is built up from a supporting character into probably the fourth-most-important character in the series, and does so gradually. Unlike her contemporaries Elayne and Min, who I felt just kind of got dropped into their important roles, Egwene grew into hers. I definitely feel like she’s one of the most complete characters in the series.
That said, I’d still be okay with her dying, if it had been for a good reason. But this is just lame. Going super-saiyin and dying from exhaustion feels like a completely limp way of offing a character, especially when part of that exhaustion was from a broken bond to a character she never should have had any strong connection with in the first place.
Yeah, you heard me. I think that Egwene x Gawyn is an incredibly dumb pairing. Egwene is likely the most mature character for her age in the series. Gawyn is probably the least mature character in the series who isn’t physically a child. They just don’t fit together at all. I don’t have a problem with authors ‘coupling’ characters – I loved The Belgariad even when it did this – but it felt like Egwene got stuck with Gawyn because he was the only semi-important character who was left, and RJ somehow felt that she needed some lovin’ as well.
That leads me to my second point: she didn’t need a romance. Egwene, more than any other character had a purity of purpose. Once she enters her Amyrilin arc, has one single goal: unite the tower for the last battle. That’s it. She’s utterly devoted to this, and nothing is more important. The other characters have multiple things they need to accomplish, so a romance just falls in naturally beside everything else. With Egwene, it just felt tacked-on. I have a hard time believing a character this devoted to something would take time out for a romance. Yes, I realize that the romance started before Egwene did her Amyrilin schtick, but then see point one: these two just don’t work together.
So yeah, not really upset at the fact that she’s dead, just more about a certain reason leading up to it.
Well, that turned out a whole lot more negative than I was hoping (not to mention longer than I intended). I won’t say that it was a bad book; I had a hard time putting it down and all, and there were things I liked (Talmanes, Mat/Tuon, Mat/Rand). Androl/Pevara in particular was good. They were definitely the glue that held this thing together, and it left me wondering were they where back when the series was dragging its feet. Maybe I’m just disenfranchised with the way the series went during the dark period, but even back when I was reading the objectively ‘good’ books, I think I was hoping for a better ending than this. But, at least we got an ending, right?
Anyhow, it’s over now, and I can close this particular chapter of my life.
simmeh @424
Your opinion is yours and you are entitled to it but one correction I would offer is that Egwene did not die of exhaustion. She deliberately channeled too much of the one power in an effort to annihilate Taim and the Sharan channelers. And she did so. She went out in a blaze of glory. I do however strongly agree that her character growth and development was perhaps the most complete and very well done. As a fan, I wish she had survived Tarmon Gaidon, but accept that her sacrifice was needed to give the forces of Light a chance to win at Merrilor.
MoM@423: Or, it could be something that is yet to come. Most likely it just didn’t turn out the way RJ was thinking when that Foretelling was uttered.
did anyone else miss the dictionary at the end?
…
just me? OK
I missed the glossary too to be honest…
MoM @423….I guess the “boat” was figurative
Maybe not.
“South. East or west would do, but he figured he wanted to go someplace away from it all for good. South first, then maybe out west, along the coast. Maybe he could find a ship”
“‘Edge of a blade’ sounds dire”
I choose to think that peaceful resolution of the damane issue counts as “edge of a blade”.
@427, 428: Initially, I missed the glossary, but after thinking about it, it seemed appropriate. Then, later, I read that BWS and Team Jordan left it out so that the last words we read were RJ’s ending. That clinched it for me as a perfect decision.
One thing I wanted to comment on was the *need* for Siuan’s death. Now, initially I was disturbed by it, but I’ve come to realize there is, in fact, a necessity for it. While Siuan accepted Egwene as the Amyrlin, the question of whether Siuan still has a claim to the position has gone unanswered. From what we know, legally no new Amyrlin can be named such until the previous one (if being removed as in the case of Siuan) has been executed. Since Siuan is still alive, she still has a claim to the Seat, even if she excused herself from the position during Egwene’s reign. With Egwene’s death, had Siuan survived the Last Battle, that barrier would no longer exist.
Let’s see… I got the book yesterday afternoon, didn’t get a chance to start it until 10pm last night… so naturally I stayed up all night reading it and took a one hour nap this morning before I had to get up for work. All I can say is, well done.
If I had to pick a favorite storyline, I think it would have to be the developing relationship between Androl and Pevara. The Talmanes POV scenes were also great, and of course the final conflict between Rand and the Dark One. And poor little Olver with the Horn, finally summoning the heroes (including Jain, of course).
A couple parts seemed rushed–the one I found most jarring was the scene where we’re informed in so many words that Loial’s report about Lan’s apparent death affected Mat deeply, along with the rest of the army. Surely we could have had a few lines of dialogue. Quickly reported deaths didn’t jar–it gives the impression of a lot of terrible things happening too fast for anyone to really keep track–but if there is time for people to be affected by a death, I think that’s worth showing, even briefly. But I nitpick. I’m looking forward to reading it all over again (maybe during normal waking hours this time, though).
If you really miss the Glossary, here you go…
http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/
I also found it odd that there was no glossary. Not that I needed one but that in the previous books it had been a part of the structure.
As the age ends so ends the glossary. :)
I actually liked Logain’s small storyline. I think in a way Hubris was his madness and he cured it on his own.
Nynaeve needs to check in with Avi to set up a new clinic for healing the Ashaman using her new devotee Hasslam.
Forgive the misspelling. I am just between things and cannot get to the book right now.
sorry anthonypero,
that doesn’t come close to what the glossary in the back of the book provides. (new details on old explanations, new names and their pronunciations, etc).
Well, we’ll have a real encyclopedia soon enough.
As I read through the comments, I’m… amused at the number of times people have complained about not seeing something, when it actually was there but they missed it. And others who say “Yes, everyone missed that. There was a bit of a handwave in there because Team Jordan missed the continuity error” – and two comments later, someone provides the reference where it was addressed. I don’t have a problem with those who ask “Did _____ happen?” – it’s over 900 pages, not many can remember everything after a single read. It’s the people who complain bitterly about something that “didn’t happen” or those who answer wrongly that “No, it didn’t” when, in fact, it did – they just don’t remember it, and don’t bother to go check before making definitive statements… They make me laugh.
I’m glad I’m not the only one laughing, Wetlandernw :D
@368. RobMRobM
I made the comment on a half remembered scene when Bashere asks if Faile has mentioned the Broken Crown, and Perrin having no clue to what it as.
It could very well just be the name of the crown, and I’m making it to be more important that it actually is.
@KateSedai
There are a several things going on that would facilitate a soul swap or vacancy in Moridin’s body for occupation. I’m convinced that Calendor functions as a forced link in every respect. Something beyond the one power. Cour’Souvra level stuff. I’m basing this off of the “and all he is can be seized” prophecy about Calendor. Regardless, the specifics may be non-confirmable based off of the conversation I had with Brandon at a book signing.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 437;
If you find yourself “amused” here, don’t go to Amazon and read the garbage being posted there as “reviews.” Nearly half are 1-star gripes because they couldn’t get their precious Kindle version on January 8. And the things a few of these trolls said about Harriet really pissed me off! Like I said, don’t go there. Send Cadsuane.
P.S. I’ve been anxiously awaiting your comments on the book.
420, drewlovs
I suspect that Jordan was setting things up for a lot of side stories/anthologies to hang onto the spine of the series, rather than make the series longer. In fact, iirc, there was only going to be one book after KoD, rather than the three which eventuated.
Now whether or not BS is going to write any side stories or anthologies to resolve a lot of the burning questions is a good question in itself.
Marks@442:
One which has been answered a lot already. most recently 6 days go by BS: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/1136/Its-finally-out
Check out the Q&A at the bottom of the blog post.
@423 and following, re the boat:
I guess the “boat” was figurative (all in the same boat), but the rest seems true, if not as dramatic a foretelling as we thought.[/quote]Nah, I think it was literal, just didn’t happen yet. In the very last scene as Rand is preparing to ride into the sunset, he even thinks “Hey, maybe I could get a boat.” (paraphrased :-) So, my money is on Rand taking his gals for a 3x-honeymoon cruise sometime later on…
The core point of that foretelling, after all, is that the story doesn’t end with the end of the Third Age. There’s still a huge unresolved conflict with the Seanchan (The land divided by the return) and all kinds of potential issues between the Aes Sedai and Asha’man (the guardians balance the servants) for years and years to come. Plenty of room in there for Rand to take up sailing as a hobby… Roll on, oh big ol’ Wheel!
@419 &422…When the prison was resealed the Dark One could no longer
trouch the pattern so all of the bad stuff that resulted from HIS touch would stop. It happened during the day so the people of Hinderstap would be up and about their business and I’d like to think that the curse was lifted and they got to go back to their regular lives. Unless they were still being used as “zombie shock troops” and had all died during the course of the day.
rhandric @431: One of Siuan’s first acts after Nynaeve Healed her was to demand her job back. It didn’t go well.
That aside, having Siuan die did avoid the awkward “there’s a former Amyrlin among us” issue post-LB. I didn’t have a problem with it.
@437 wetlandw. Was that aimed at me re. 156? I have not read all the comments, though most and with much scanning. You do seem to paraphrase me.
To clarify I did not mean it was a cont error. We missed it as in it was reffered to not given actual page time. Leane? -hand wave. Oh, yes, she’s back now lets move on now this obligatory line is out of the way.
If not, nevermind.
Demandred: “Who ARE you?”
Lan: “No one of any consequence.” – he didn’t really say that, but it WAS sounding very reminicent of that conversation at the top of the Cliffs of Insanity!
Gawynn’s death was the first scene that got to me. Not because he died. But that it was in his brother’s arms.
Ok, so when Egwene becomes the Amyrlin in Salidar, Robert Jordan took great detail (per the norm) in naming almost all of the Sitters and giving many of them more than just a base description. Reading through this and only having a few names dropped (and not knowing who survived!!!) really irritates me. The Sitters tend to embody the traits of their Ajah, as well as their own individual traits. Egwene had to manipulate, browbeat, and simultaneously inspire these women in order for them to accept her. And NO HEAD COUNT to see which of them made it and would continue to guide the Aes Sedai?!?!?! I know it is such a little thing but GRRRR.
The same goes for Liandrin’s group of Black Sisters. They had a tendency to keep disappearing, only to reappear again!! I would have thought that meant the last few remaining sisters would be up to something particularly nasty. And, if not, I would have loved to see Elayne and Nynaeve stamp the last of them out! At least Jeane Caide saw justice….
End of rant :)
450–I was thinking the same thing, though wasn’t Rianna among the group that Androl duped into the stedding? By my calculations, that leaves only Marillin Gemalphin unaccounted for. (Correct me if I’m wrong, please.) I was really hoping to learn what some of the Dark Orders were that had various baddies quaking in their boots at various times were. Well, maybe MG skipped out on her oaths to feed cats in Lugard or something…
I have plenty of thoughts on the books as a whole, and this one in particular, but first I want to provide my input on a few of the more controversial/debated topics.
Moiraine’s role: No, she didn’t nuke massive amounts of Trollocs, but Moiraine has always been much more of a talker than a doer. In reguards to her speech for The Dragon’s Peace: sure, there are many people who could have quoted prophecy, but would it have had the same effect? I’ve always thought of Moiraine as an extremely persuasive person. She isn’t domineering like Cadsuane, she isn’t “tricksy” like Siuan (or to a lesser extent, Egwene), she doesn’t have the godlike authority of Rand, or the insight/visions of Min, but when she talks, people listen to her.
The balance between Perrin and Mat: Perrin fights Slayer and guards Rand through a large section of the book = Mat fights Demandred/leads the armies of the Light through a large section of the book.
Perrin Kills Lanfear = Mat kills Fain.
Perrin/Faile’s story arc: I didn’t really dig the emo Perrin or the damsel in constant distress, but I can relate to Perrin more than probably any other character in the series. Like Perrin, I am a fairly large guy. I had several younger siblings and was one of the bigger people in my class, so I grew up being careful of my actions (and yes, I did get teased about it like Perrin does). I’m slow to anger and reluctant to argue/fight, but I would wade through Hell to help the ones I love, and I would show no mercy to those that cause them harm. It took me longer than usual to figure out who I was, who I wanted to be, and who I needed to be and to make them all fit together. It took the presence of a special woman to give me a reason to grow as a person. So in short, I did enjoy his story arc and seeing him reach his full potential. Besides, the fight with Slayer is probably the most cinematic fight scene in the whole series.
Brandon Sanderson finishing the series: like many here, I had not heard of Mr. Sanderson until I read that he had been chosen to finish the WOT series. Upon hearing the news, I bought “The Way of Kings”. I was, to put it mildly, impressed. I picked up the Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, and Elantris shortly after. Every book I have read from him has been exceptional. Mr. Sanderson has the ability to tell a full story in very few words (not saying his books are short, just that he crams 3-4 full novels worth of action into every book). He is amazing in his ability to invent so many magic systems with unique rules, backstories, and limitations, and then immediately finding crazy ways around those rules and limitations. He is a perfect fit to WOT, especially in the latter books, as the supergirls, Rand, and the BT boys were really stepping up the “never been done before” weaving action. He also writes some of the best endings for stories…kind of an anti-King.
The delay on the ebook: I’m not happy. I can respect the decision to honor Harriet’s opinion, and I hate to say anything negative about her, but I feel it is selfish and shallow to let your personal opinion factor in to such a major decision. Ebooks aren’t going away. If anything, they are rapidly becoming the preference for many of us. If it would have been any other book, I probably wouldn’t have bothered with buying it at all, or maybe waited for the ebook version to appear in the discount bin at Amazon.
Well, this is turning into a wall of text. Time to go reread AMOL!
If every subplot were wrapped up (and ignoring that it would have required 600 more pages to accomplish), if every action were clarified beyond doubt, then this wouldn’t be happening.
Mr. Mojo,
On Harriet’s decision regarding eBook release, it is the furthest thing from selfish. Her concern, whether well-founded or not (and that remains an open topic) is for the independent bookstores, which are growing fewer by the day, but remain the most faithful standardbearers for the works of top authors. If most readers downloaded the book on release day, the brick-and-mortar bookstores would be doomed. And perhaps this is an inevitable trend. But she had no wish to hasten it with the finale of her late husband’s masterwork. It seems to me that her wish is to honor Robert Jordan’s legacy and the independent bookstores at the same time.
454. Freelancer
I didn’t really consider it that way, and what you say does make sense. On the other hand, it would also make sense to get the book out to as many loyal fans as possible, as quickly as possible, instead of using it as a pawn in a battle that has already been lost. Independent book stores are done. Trust me, I’m not really thrilled about it either, but that’s just the way it is. It wasn’t even ebooks that killed them really; it was Barnes and Noble, Borders, Hastings, Amazon, etc. Like everything else, the mom-and-pop book shops were killed in a war of attrition to the corporations.
On a related note, there isn’t even a corporate book store within 50 miles of me, so I ended up buying the hardcover copy of AMOL from Amazon anyway.
With all that said, your post did convince me that Harriet wasn’t selfish to withhold the ebook. Misguided maybe, but not selfish.
Hey Leigh,
thanks for the re reads and reviews. I actually only read yours as they’re so entertaining and you’re so considerate when it comes to spoilers.
But my brains do be a tad slow… and from Illian. What did you mean by this?
Uh. Is that who I think it is? Because whooooa.
Yeah, that was totally who I thought it was. And it kind of puts paid to the debate over whether it had really been the Creator talking to Rand in TEOTW, too. At least as far as I am concerned.
I feel like I missed something here. It IS the Creator right?
I bought my copy at River Read Books a small local store in Binghamton, NY. ToM as well. The owner is not a fantasy fan but she is amazed at the buzz WoT gets. I met her at the door the morning ToM was released, I had held it the night before but she wouldn’t give it to me until the correct date. It was sad because I hesitated after she went in, to let her disarm the alarm, and she said. “Nobody wants to steal books.”
I keep thinking to myself “He’s not the Messiah; he’s a very Knotai boy….”
@457. We used to have good friends in Binghamton. They were visiting us in Boston, in the latter part of a winter in which Boston was approaching it’s all time snow record of close to 12o inches. Our friends pointed out that was an average snowfall for Binghamton. Point taken, game, set and match.
@456. I THINK IT IS THE CREATOR, MESELF.
Mojo, what you are missing is that those ereaders are linked to said big box book stores. It is another nail in the coffin. Long live the little guys!
Ummm… this may be out of place but I’m sure would appreciate it if somebody wandered on over thataways to Amazon territory and said “shut your ungrateful pie holes, the book is out there, buy it, read it, be happy”… or words to that effect. Folks got nothing better to do than whine… this bed is too soft, this bed is too hard… Sounds like a kid crying because they didn’t get the latest iphone for Christmas.
About Egwene, I know folks are choked up, but let’s face it, her fate was sealed the moment she went loopy over boy blunder. There was no way that was ending happy. The only way to stop that was if an Aes Sedai put on their big girl panties and stopped that unholy union before Egwene could bond him, “no wait Mother, save your strength, he’s too far gone. Look, he’s starting to make sense, that’s a bad sign…”
The Last Battle- loved it. Every gory page. I do believe I have said this in previous posts, but the Last Battle better be a huge slug fest, big ass armies, lots o’ beasties that needed killing, sword waiving, badass characters being badass, the works, things falling down going “boom”. Brandon did not disappoint. The only thing that had me scratching my head was the horse… I know Mandarb is a stallion and all , but doesn’t he get tired, even just a little bit?
…. Oh yeah, and I still have an issue with Berelain not disrobing, I think the editors got over zealous in that department. Let the story flow, people.
Woof™.
@458
The winters have been mellowing over the last five or six years. A little north and a little south of us gets the brunt. I am from WA where there are world record snowfalls up near Mount Rainier. I was raised in the Eastern high plains desert area that only averages a little over eight inches of precipitation per year. It is much wetter here!
Re: Choked Up Incident #3, and over a sparring session
A most memorable scene indeed. For me, Tam’s conversation with Rand in the Stone of Tear in TGS and the dynamics of their relationship seemed familiar. It took me a while to figure it out, and it was the sparring scene that made me realize that the relationship dynamic seemed familiar because it reminded me of the relationship between Jonathan Kent and Clark in Smallville (Smallville, because I’m not familiar with the comics, and Jonathan Kent isn’t much of a presence in the Christopher Reeve movies). And John Schneider as Jonathan Kent seemed to have that grounded solidity that Tam is described as having.
Stuba @456
This is the passage:
This occurs at the cavern mouth to the Pit of Doom, on the slope of Shayol Ghul. So, would Rand have been hopeful, or offered thanks, at hearing the Dark One’s voice? Not likely.
Something else on that same page, which strengthens my thinking that the body-switch happened in the cavern, where the Pattern is thinnest:
I think this is foreshadowing that Rand’s body is carried out. Not yet dead, but not walking. Yes, Rand does walk out alive, but not in the same body he used to walk in.
I have been reading these comments for 2 days now and haven’t caught up yet. So I guess I will add my 2 coppers worth.
First, Congratulations to Bannerman Brandon and the rest of his troops for continuing on after the Great Captain fell. I only found this series a few yeas ago, but have become throughly engrossed. I guess I will have time to explore other books now.
A few random thoughts and some fun questions…
Like, what will happen to Moggy when the Sul’dam remove her “necklace?” Damane are not allowed jewelry. Will she lose her soul?
Gawayn was looking peaked from wearing all three rings. He could have communicated with Egwene and received healing, before his big battle. She should have known through the bond that he was ailing.
Hmmm… Tuon has her cherry popped by Cougertown’s favorite Boy Toy and has no reaction at all? All Mat has is a ‘pleasant’ dream after the first night with his wife? Rand and Perrin got much better love scenes! And Mat is the pro, with experience (Tylin & Melindhra) and the old memories. Something wrong with that girl.
I think after two frantic runs through the Trolloc camp, Bella would have been done for anyhow. She had already raced back and forth with Faile, and then had to do it again.
Since I listened to the audio book, it is hard to fix on all the details. I think a LOT of the White Tower AS died in almost every fight. Would they even have enough left for a Hall? When I read the book again, I will maybe keep count.
I kinda expected that sometime the Seafolk would acknolwedge Mat for freeing the damane in Ebu Dar. That could have become an advantage during negotions or something.
I liked Rand more, now that he wasn’t acting like a stone or a jerk.
Kind of fitting that the active Aiel, Avi, looses her feet, Handsome Galad looses his looks and a hand. Shy Min is exposed to the world as a Doomseer. Humble Perrin will now be living a royal life in Saldaea.
And what was in Verrin’s red sealed letters to everyone???
Great plot for the Forsaken turning the Great Captains, and returning with the Sharans and male Aiel Channelers. I guess they weren’t just one of Jain’s stories.
Perrin finding Faile was like when she was trapped with the hedgehog.
He also rescued the Whitecloak buried with Trollacs after a big battle by using his super powers. Little clues are just all through this series.
And very cool that the Spirit Wolves could take out the Dark Hounds. Love, Loved it.
Would have liked to see Rand and Galad meet, acknowledging that they were brothers. Too bad Eliada couldn’t be there to see how wrong and how right she was. Andor’s Royal line and all.
Looking forward to Leigh’s reread to see what all I have missed.
SB
I agree with all of your statements in this. The amount of emotion that I had going through this tome…. is nothing compared to any other book I have ever read. I will certainly see its pages again.
I must say a lot of the smaller stories could have been elaborated on a little better to make it a little more fulfilling throughout rather then the mad dash to sit to throttle to dash to sit feeling I had throughout the book… but as you said above I believe it was –
I must say in the end I was very happy with the book and I can honestly say it is the best book I have ever read because it ended nearly half my life of waiting for this story. I only wish Egwene would have been given something more than what she was given…. Her ending seemed kind of diminished and as a character that I loved and hated throughout the series… it was just too much overall. My reaction was to put the book down for an hour and just digest that…. she deserved more.
463.ShaggyBella
Well, if they’re holding it next to her and try to make her channel, she will fall over, writhing in agony. This may convince them to make an exception.
@465 I am more concerned that instead of making an exception they get the secret of how to make and use them out of her.
@466:
I doubt that she knows how to make those. And I might be wrong (don’t have the books at hand at the moment), but I think it was mentioned that it could be made only very close to Shayol Ghul or something like that? Anyone care to tell in which book was it was shown being made?
Nisheeth @467
~ A Crown of Swords, ch25 “Mindtrap”
Yes, Moghedien knows the making of a Mindtrap. But as to whether they can still be made, or indeed whether hers remains in force, there is much room for debate. With the reconstruction of the prison, all natural contact with the DO is severed. It may well be that all forms of control and influence from the Pit of Doom are also neutralized. So here’s the $64,000 question: Would you trade a Cour’souvra for and a’dam if those were your only options?
@468, Freelancer:
Thanks for the quote. Seems I had forgotten that she knew how to make those. Regardless of whether Moghedien is free or not, the Seanchan won’t be getting their hands on those.
About the question, is it from the point of view of someone bound by one of those (Moghiedien) or from the point of view of a Sul’dam (or some other such person, who controls the wearer)?
And as far as I understood, an a’dam is far better (for the wearer) than the Cour’souvra.
Just finished. for the past 15 years there has always been another WOT book in my future. What do I do now? Thank you Team Jordan for giving us an ending. I guess I am still in shock that it is all said and done with. So it goes.
I’m really surprised at how many people were upset by Egwene’s death and the manner in which it occurred. I thought it was perfect, one of the best moments of the book. Egwene was always near the top of my least favorite characters list (below only Elayne and Gawyn) and the scene still brought tears to my eyes.
I’ve been known to say a lot of things in criticism of Sanderson’s writing and especially his contribution to the Wheel of Time but the one thing I thought that he absolutely excelled at was the portrayal of Egwene and her multiple moments of awesome. He did a fantastic job with her in every book but in my opinion he especially nailed Egwene’s final moments. Talk about going out in a blaze of glory.
Oh and Fain has not dissolved into nothingness he has jumped into our age in the form of Windows8 and is happily spreading evil and destruction
I was wondering, whether it was just I who missed it, or Min’s viewing regarding Cadsuane teaching something to the Asha’man and Rand which they wouldn’t like.
@471, torysx
From what I read, it was more of sad than upset.
subwoofer @459:
I’m with ya brother. I did leave a few “crybaby” comments and tons of thumbs down ratings on 1-star reviews, fwiw.
Mandarb: Well, no doubt he was partaking of some of the warder bond. Gotta be. And, like Bela, he is now a Hero of the Horn.
@454 – It’s a valid point about the independent bookstores, although not one of the independent bookstores I’ve been in over the past week has had AMOL (or any other Sanderson book for that matter). Either way I think it’s Harriet’s call. I love e-books but she’s right that the industry still doesn’t value their sales the same as it does traditional books. It was important to her to do what she could to see that this book sold well and was recognized as selling well. I don’t know if she’s right or wrong about how much e-book sales would cut into the hardback sales or if they hurt the independent bookstores, but I agree with you that she has the right and the responsiblilty to handle it as she sees best. That’s not selfish.
@459 – I was also annoyed by the trolls giving one star reviews on Amazon and BN.com and enjoyed calling them out as whiners in my reviews. :)
@463 – Good point about Tuon and Mat’s … skills. More elaboration on that scene might have been interesting. Or disturbing. Hard to tell with those two.
@472 – That explains so much.
New interpretation of this prophecy just struck me:
“Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?”
Always assumed it was fulfilled by Narishma, but really how did he “follow after” Rand. Maybe it refers to Moridin snatching Call from Rand’s hand. If Moridin doesn’t “follow after” (literally now, in rand’s body and vice versa), not sure who does ;)
I’m fully satisfied that that prophecy was settled by Rand thrusting Callandor into the rock of the Heart of the Stone, to hold the Tairen hearts to him, knowing he’d return to get it. And that Narishma, who was ordered to retrieve it and follow Rand to his next destination, almost got zapped by what was probably an extra trap set by one of the forsaken over the top of Rand’s own weaves.
One interesting question going forward is: “Is this the end of the RAFO?”
When Brandon is asked a question about WoT stuff now, I can see several different choices for him:
1) Give the answer (or defer to Maria if it’s an obscure issue that might require running to the notes.)
2) Note that RJ (or even he, Brandon) is deliberately letting the issue be left unsettled.
3) Give a “RAFO” – essentially promising that the answer will be coming in Harriet’s Encyclopedia.
Personally I hope there’s still some RAFOs coming – it would mean that the Encyclopedia will contain some interesting nuggets that we don’t know yet. And it would give me something to look forward to.
Another point about the Encyclopedia: If the prequels are not going to be written, it would sure be nice to have some substantial information that we would have otherwise seen. Why did Tam leave the Two Rivers? Who mentored him up to Blademaster skill? What exactly happened when he found baby Rand?
I’d also like to find out the back story on the “near-toothless wilder” that had such an influence on Cadsuane.
RAFO’s: I was thinking the same thing, forkroot. I also hope that the encyclopedia contains lots of RJ’s unpublished notes and story idea. Ideas that he tossed could be just as interesting as what he used.
“near-toothless wilder” Could it be. . . Nakomi???
:{ )
NickInNC @@@@@ 475: It’s a valid point about the independent bookstores, although not one of the independent bookstores I’ve been in over the past week has had AMOL (or any other Sanderson book for that matter).
Interesting that you said that. There are three independent bookstores in my town and none of them have AMOL either. My only choice to buy it here is to go to bloody WalMart. So I ended up ordering from Amazon, who would have provided me with the ebook too had it been available.
BTW… I loved the fulfillment of Min’s viewing of Rand from ToM: “…a pipe with smoke curling from it.” After all the debate about what it could mean, it’s just… Rand, smoking his pipe.
I just thought of how Taim was able to steal the remaining seals. He put a finder on the one he gave to Rand, Duh, so obvious.
Sam – That is clever!
I had always wondered if Taim was Team-Dark, why did he give Rand a seal? It seemed like more than would be necessary to gain his trust. Your explanation gives him a perfect reason.
Tai’shar Oregon!
Thanks Forkroot, every once in a while something brilliant pops out of my brain….. ;)
Been waiting for a few days before I posted, but then I’ve found I don’t really have all that much to say.
Overall I quite enjoyed the book. It wastn’t perfect, but I don’t even know if a totally healthy RJ himself could have written a truly “perfect” ending to such a massive series (though no one least of all Sanderson would deny that it would have been more perfect had RJ been able to finish it). But it was satisfying.
@wetlander 481
Sometimes a
cigarpipe is just a pipe. Heh.Now that I’ve had a chance to sleep & rest my eyes after plowing through in one marathon reading session:
It’s easier for me to pick out what didn’t fully work for me.
– Lanfear. I was hoping she’d actually earn her redemption.
– Demandred’s felling about the Dragon Reborn (Otherwise he was a badass).
– The abruptness of certain plot points like Matrim & Padan Fain. I have no problem with how it ended, but I expected more buildup.
– The Last Battle chapter. Not in its setup or content, but its length! A 200+ chapter with no breaks. Having it in 3 or four smaller chapters would have been better.
– The “Just Mostly Deads” like Galad & Elayne. It felt kind of jarring to have them just still be alive.
– I’d have preferred that Moghedien be the damane that Mat caught.
Lastly, the very freaking end. I don’t even dislike the ending as much as how freaking sudden it felt. The book is almost nonstop action then a very short Epilogue like that…it felt jarring. I’d have wanted a months, or least weeks, long Epilogue as the survivors start to try & move on.
Was thinking about this for a mintue after reading the posts.
I noticed a lot of people were disappointed that Egwene did not become a Hero of the Horn for what I will agree with are good reasons. I mean come on. EGWENE! :)
But what if she was a Hero of the Horn who had been reborn as Egwene but unlike Rand who had to know what it was to be Lews Therin to be the Dragon Reborn she was just a regular hero who did not know of her previous lives?
Brigette said that in all her rebirths she never remembered who she was. She grew up. She lived. She kicked some ass (paraphrasing) and she died.
Since we do not know who all the Heroes are nor did Egwene meet any of them at Toman Head the way Rand did to reveal his Heroic identity we as the readers would not know if she was a living Hero.
Nor in the calling at the Last Battle is she seen by the charater observation however, two things. One the Hero would not look like Egwene as we know that LTT did not look like Rand and two, battle is kinda distracting. :)
So perhaps, since it is not known, one can spin a whisp of a theory that Egwene was a Hero we do not know who had to commit one last Heroic action before becoming available to the Horn to be called back when Olver sounded the Horn.
also have no idea who will see this since the post is amost to 500 and and that is usually when the posts break. :)
And another thing. If Hawkwing spoke to Fortuna would he have really minded the leashing of women? It happened under his rule. It was basically invented for him. Also, it did not keep him from being a Hero of the Horn. He probably just told her that the Last Battle was important and he was proud of her and that Mat sent him.
Which may increse Mat’s odds of living with Fortuna but not by much.
She seems to set too much store in living by avoiding assassination. Which means she and Faile should get along well.
If you replace yelling at with sending assassins after. But still the end result is you honor the person by showing you think they are strong enough to handle it.
Wow, lots of comments. I’m sure there’s no lack of good, thoughtful ones, too. I’ll have to find time to pick through them. But, for the moment, I just wanted to throw out a few thoughts I had about the book that’ll get smooshed between more intelligent posts and a probably a few trolls. Yet, that’s ok.
I teared up a lot reading this book. Part of it is probably due to some sort of deep-seeded emotional problems I’ve buried under a layer of practiced repression, but goddamn, there were just scenes, dudes. Scenes. Even if they were just quick flashes, like Siuan and Bryne’s deaths, having grown up with these characters and now watching them move into the final arc, even if that finality was death… it hurt good. Or it was a good hurt. I dunno.
Full disclosure: Perhaps I’m in the minority, but out of the so-called Supergirls, I was never all that attached to Egwene as a character. I resonated more strongly with Nynaeve, weirdly, and Aviendha. Elayne to a lesser extent, but Egwene I never really got on board with. Yet, her final moments in A Memory of Light were outstandingly written. That last sentence in her PoV, especially, was heartbreakingly bittersweet. We may never know if that was Sanderson or Jordan, but either way, job well done.
Matt: I almost got worried that the guy wasn’t going to show up. But I needn’t of worried, obviously. I’ve long felt that Sanderson’s Matt is more Matty than Jordan’s Matt. I don’t know if that makes much sense, but it’s all I have to explain it. Yet, I’ve really come around to enjoy this more… what’s the word? jokey version of Matrim. Like many of the subtle — and not so subtle — tweaks in the characters as they passed from Jordan to Sanderson, I’ve found that once I accepted them for what they are and not for what I wanted to be, I was happier with the books. I’m not trying to imply that Sanderson made these huge changes in these characters. He didn’t. But there are some quirks, here and there. I hardly even notice them anymore. Shit, I’ve largely digressed from the damn point here. Matt shows up in A Memory of Light and he kicks ass. I love his screen time. Always have.
Perrin: In terms of character, he seems to have remained the most unchanged from his strictly Jordan-written counterpart, at least in my eyes. Solid. Grounded. And completely satisfying when he lays waste to Luc. No complaints.
Rand: It didn’t play out exactly like I thought it would, but his tussle with ol’ Shai’tan was engrossing. I thought it would be more him fighting Moridin with fireballs and lightening and… hurricanes. Sunburns, perhaps. Well, in any event, I expected more One Power and less alternate-reality duel between Rand and Dark-Izzle for Shizzle. But I /liked/ it. Alanna suddenly being there… well, wasn’t quite sure what to make of that, but, hey. Gotta tie up loose ends. I get it.
Min: Not a ton to offer here. Often understated, usually overlooked, yet almost always a part of one decision or another that affects the entire course of X conflict. We got more of that here.
Aviendha: Always liked Avi. We got quite a bit of her here. Plus, she took out Graendal. Good job!
Nynaeve & Moraine: They were in the book? Oh, yeah, I guess they were for about three sentences. Okay, that’s not entirely fair, and I get that they were just outranked by the Important Task Rand was about. Rand’s reaction to Moraine’s arrival was great, too. And Alanna gave Nyn something to do. Which is the most important thing Alanna has ever done. So, hey, win-win. Moraine, however, just got to stand around for most the book. Not too bad a gig, all considered.
Thom: I like how he stashes women’s corpses away like some sort of Randland Ted Bundy. Somebody has done this before!
Gawyn, Galad, Logain: Kinda lumping these guys all together since they all took shots at Demandred and didn’t cut the mustard. Gawyn was always a dum-dum. Out of the ‘major-minors’ that didn’t make it, his death didn’t really resound with me. I wrote him off after he denounced Rand after hearing a rumor from a peddler. No fact checking, Gawyn? Really? Whatever Taringail put into Morgase that made Elayne didn’t quite make it when they made Gawyn. Galad, cool, calm, collected. Using the Children to hunt down Sharans was tits. He just needed, to use a modern parlance, learn2play better when it came to challenging daddy Forsaken. I suppose Gawyn had the same issue, even though he had Buffs. Not entirely either of their fault that they didn’t measure up, relatively speaking. And Logain… well, I guess three times isn’t the charm. However, this brings up the bigger issue that I had with the book. All three of these characters — four counting Lan, but I’ll address that momentarily — were basically able just to drop in on Demandred’s doorstep and challenge him to a bit o’ mano-a-mano. The thing is, they all had /plausible/ reasons to be vist Dem, more or less. Through rings, through fox head medallions, through Gateway… I get that. I do. Yet, I could smell what the Rock was cooking and I didn’t like it. Seemed somewhat contrived to me. Like Sanderson wasn’t quite sure how to make them all have a Moment, so, fuck it, just throw them at Demandred and see what happens.
Lan: Badass. He’s always badass. Butler said it best, so I won’t get too carried aways: He’s just Lanriffic. And whilst I /do/ have a slight problem with him just riding up to Demandred (I know, I know. Tam and bows and arrows and everything. Still, it seemed a bit hokey, in my opinion) and bitch slapping him back to the abyss — especially after the motif had worn a bit thin with the three previous challengers — the fact that he just rode up to Demandred and bitch slapped him back to the abyss was totally fucking cool. It’s a paradox. But, like in baseball, the tie goes to the runner, so Lan Hulking it out on Demandred’s stupid face wins.
Tuon: Major-minor character in this book, in my opinion. Kind of more of a presence, here, than a force. Still, she’s fun with Matt. No real complaints.
Elayne & Bridgette: Elayne really grew on me over the series. Glad she made it through with gusto. Lots of belly holding, but, hey. That’s to be expected. I didn’t see the Mellar thing coming, at all. Actually, sort of forgot about the guy, even around the mentions, here and there. Nice surprise thread close, Sanderson! At least, for me.
Androl & Pevera: Who the fuck is this guy and just how, how, did he get such huge, steel-encased balls? I’m not motivated right now to do the research on how far back he made his first appearance, but for all intents and purposes, he owned this first third of this book. Pevera served as a nice foil/companion/buddy cop but it was truly Androl’s show. And that’s something, considering the cast of hundreds he was plucked out of.
Talmanes: Somebody best remember he pretty much won the war by getting those dragons out of Caemlyn. Pay the man!
Faile: I think out of the major characters, she was the one I was the most unsure of how A. She was going to be used and B. If she was going to Make It. Her little side-story ended up being A. More interesting than I thought it would be and B. I was a little dissapointed initially that she Made It, but then not, for Perrin’s sake, ‘cuz that guy needs some happiness in his life. Though I felt the ‘Vanin lol your Dark? No, not really! LoL’ thing was a little dopey. Oh well. It’s forgiven for setting up the whole Olver Toots the Horn moment. Which I predicted from a Million Miles Away, like, five books ago! Though I have no documentation or substantial proof to back that up. Just take my word for it.
Demandred: Not what I expected, really. Wasn’t surprised that he came out of Shara. But, then again, he’s had relatively little screen time, so there’s not much to judge his personality on other than the scraps we’ve been fed here and there. Shit, he killed Gawyn. I’m not going to complain.
The Other Forsaken: They came, they saw, they… should have taken lessons on how to work better as a committee. A Fighting Unit. I was more or less pleased with how they all panned out, save for Lanfear. No, Perrin snapping her silly neck was great. But everything leading up to that point as far as she is concerned seemed a bit tacked on. A few lines here and there, a few scenes there and here, and then she’s suddenly at the climax. And then Perrin introduces her to Mr. McSqueezy Hands. I feel it was just a bit anti-climatic, just as far as her personal storyline goes. But, to be fair, I guess one could say she already had her major time in the lime-light. It was Demandred’s turn, and M’Hael’s. There’s only so much Forsaken you shove into the book, after all.
Rhurac, Loial, Leane, Bashere, Siuan, Bryne, Morgase, Faine, Elyas, Uno, etc: Some of you made it. Some of you died like bitches. Some of you made bitches die. Most of you had at least a few paragraphs. Some I wish had a few more. Some of you didn’t even get but a passing mention. Still, it was fun while it lasted. Thanks for riding it out for 14 books.
Brandon Sanderson: You did it, man. I know it wasn’t exactly the smoothest of rides — haters will always hate — but you took the notes, the outlines, the sheer legacy of what was left after Jordan’s untimely death and made it into something tangible. Not an easy task, I can only imagine, trying to piece together a proper finale to Jordan’s work. I think more will agree with me than not that you did an admirable job. Not perfect, but how could it have been? It was never your child, and boy oh boy, what a complicated child it was. You did good. Thank you for finishing what needed to be finished. And to the people who didn’t like your work: Fuck ’em. And some point, it becomes more on their capability as an audience to adapt, and less on your ability as an author. Because, sir, you are a fine author.
Robert Jordan: Thank you for creating a world that has engaged me since 1994. It’s weird. I’m glad the series is finished, but there’s a little part of me that is sad that I won’t be looking forward to the next Wheel of Time hardcover in three or so years. The series was a huge part of my life for many years. Not just as far as the novels go: I’ve read and reread them many times, as many of us have. I also spent a good bulk of my life immersed in the culture. I played online text games almost purely in Wheel of Time themes. I made friends there, friends I still have. Met a few girlfriends, too. And probably made a few enemies. A whole life within a life, and it centered around a world you had created. I don’t do that anymore, and haven’t for some time, but… I’m glad I did. And I’m glad it was facilitated on your imagination.
I’m sure, as many of us do, remember hearing of your death with horror. The worst had happened: Robert Jordan died without finishing the Wheel of Time. It was interesting, in reflection, how the reaction wasn’t exactly appropriate. A man died, and many of us could only think about a book series. But I suppose, in a way, that’s something of a compliment: Your words meant that much to a whole legions of readers. If only all of us could leave something so profound behind when we wake from this dream. You’re not forgotten, Mr. Jordan.
Micheal
ps or tl;dr
Book was good. Thanks Jordan for creating this world and Sanderson for wrapping it up.
@463 ShaggyBella: “I kinda expected that sometime the Seafolk would acknolwedge Mat for freeing the damane in Ebu Dar. That could have become an advantage during negotions or something.”
The only Windfinder that saw him was the one he freed, Nestelle (WH Ch 31), but I don’t think she made it out. (EncWot has no later activity for her character.) I don’t think the SeaFolk know who to thank. (I may be wrong; anyone else have a reference to a comment from them?)
Re: 487. I may be wrong, but the adam came into being AFTER Hawkwing’s death for sure, and maybe after Luthair Paendrag’s (sp?) death too. Not certain on that second one, but for sure Artur didn’t have anything to do with it.
Quick questions for the cosmere fans–I was struck by the fact that the term “dreamshards” was used a number of times to describe some sequences in t’a’r, most notably Moridin’s meeting in the prologue, but a couple of other times as well, IIRC.
“Shards” is a loaded term in Brandon’s cosmere, and I don’t recall “dreamshards” being used prior to AMoL. Am I right about that, or has it been used before?
A day after finishing the book I’ll try to give a bit of my thoughts on it. There is so much worth saying that most of it I’ll have to leave for the re-read.
Overall I think it was a satisfying conclusion of the series. The book was a wildride, as expected. I would’ve prefered a little less detail of the “in the thick of the fighting” scenes of the battles. Also, I bit less of Perrin vs Slayer. Instead of these, more on the characters. Also, a dozen more pages of the Epilogue, or the end- I know the very end is RJ.
On leaving many threads open and finishing others too quickly- I think it was inevitable. Not only for the need to be realistic. RJ expanded the story a lot in the middle of the series. He did it with lovely prose and careful detail. To complete most of these side story arks in the same style would’ve taken more pages/books that RJ/Team Jordan would contemplate. For example: KOD is great book. A fast paced book, one could see RJ trying to tighten up the plots. But even in his own prose it felt rather hurried, if necessary.
There are simply too many charaters, too much stuff to be resolved, too much detail, too many great/intersting/fascinating/wonderful things in there. To complete most (not all) plotlines/character arks in the style of books 1-9 would’ve taken a few more books. And that’s if RJ was to do it. Simply not feasable.
It can be said that Robert Jordan was hoisted by his own petard, in this respect.
Basically, the sheer amount that was left unresolved or unknown was due to being impractical otherwise, IMO. Brandon couldn’t do much more than what we read in AMOL.
Re: Rand. I like his plot and ending. His girls have the bond and can keep track of him. I’m sure they’ll be seeing each other relatively frequently. I would like to think after time he will reveal himself to Nyn, Tam, Mat, Perrin, etc.
Re: Egwene. Got a little misty-eyed there. Sad and very surprised to see her go. A little surprised how much I regret her death. Perhaps, as someone wrote, with all the open endings we can think of the characters we’ve lived with from WOT- Rand, Nyn, Mat, Moiraine….- carrying on after TG and having more adventures and/or enjoying the love of their companions and friends. But not Egwene.
Gawyn, I’m afraid, did a boo-boo. One in character. And dragged Egwene with him. The guy knew that it would’ve hit her very badly and potentially have further bad implications for the Light Forces. He did occupy Demandred for a few minutes.
Re: Moiraine. She’s probably my favourite so I was disappointed how little she featured in general. I get it that she had to sit there in SG and wait with Nyn to spring the trap for Moridin. But before that I wish for more influence, a few reunions… Just more. Maybe RJ didn’t leave more notes on her?
Loved Thom at the entrance of the cave. It was a LOL moment when I realised that it wasn’t Cads and the follow-up. Right before it, though, I freaked out, especially with all the Compulsion on the other old boys.
Re: Mat. He was great. Re: how quickly he offed Fain- good riddance to bad rubbish! I always found him tiresome from the moment he showed up with his peddler wagon in TEOTW. I was worried when he appeared at the end that he will eneter the cave and before Good won, kill Moiraine…
Re: Perrin. Liked his plot, except that it was too detailed. Pleased that Faile lived, she’s alright now and the so-called PLOD was worthed, therefore.
Re: the Seanchan. Many things can be said of them. Right now I’ll say that I’m pissed of how late they entered the battle. To say that they didn’t bear the brunt of the fighting would be a huge understatement. Except for some to’raken their forces are intact, after the bloodbath of the last battle.
Probably the battle wouldn’t have been won without their arrival, but they actually did very little. A bit like the Prussians at Waterloo, except that they made super-human effort to get there as soon as possible and fought hard at Ligny just before.
A side note- did anyone else noticed the “Cannae”-style defeat of the northern trolloc army at Cairhien?
Re: Logain. Freelancer @@@@@ 198 has him all covered perfectly.
Ok, it’s past midnight so I’ll start responding to comments tommorow. I’ve enjoyed reading them. It took me a lot to go through all of them and there will be a few more in the morning. ‘night
sigh. Looks like I’ll miss-out on the five hunny too.
Can’t believe how similar our thoughts are with this book, Leigh. Did we mindmeld or something? Because a lot of the things that upset you were also the same for me.
The ending was both happy and sad for me. Egwene was my favourite character. Gross sobbing abounded when she died. I still am having trouble processing it. So it made me sad that everyone else of our Two Rivers cast got their happy ending but not Egwene.
If she died then at least I wanted her to appear with the Horn. But alas, not everyone goes that way apparently, not even Mat.
Still, this book was an acheivement. For all my problems with it it was pretty spectacular.
Re: 490.
You are correct. the A’dam was Luthair not Artur. So the son not the father. The father just put a price on the head of every Aes Seadi and held a siege against Tal Valon for a few years.
Totallly different.
Longtimefan@494
In defense of Hawkwing, he had pretty good relations with Tar Valon until Ishamael showed up and started whispering in his ear.
It certainly would have been fun to see the conversation between Fortuona and Artur “onscreen”. Oh well, that’s one of many WoT scenes we’ll just have to imagine for ourselves.
What would have been really weird would have been if Hawkwing had happened to cross paths with Tam Al’Thor. Each of them would look at the other’s sword and go “Huh?”
@@@@@ Forkroot.
That is true. It would have been interesting to see what Hero Hawkwing would think of his own past. Sadly it is left to speculation.
The two sword scenario would have been interesting.
also interesting is that when i posted this there was no 496 nor 497 between Forkroot’s comment and mine at 498.
Too many posts. the thread, she is wonky with weariness. Soon it will be burned out and even Nynaeve cannot heal it. (yet)
Also just a random wierd though. Was Annoura Black Ajah? There was the scene where she meets Cadsuane for the first time and is fussing with her skirts in a way that could have been similar to the thumbs through the fingers sign Hamila gave Delanna in Salidar.
If she was did she choose to save Galad because she thought the Dark One would lose and in doing so she burned herself out running away from the battle field but taking him with her as a cover.
Or burned her self out doing it for a complicated dark scheme and then broke her oaths with burning out and was crying for many many reasons.
Just random thoughts. it was a long book.
I had been half expecting that very thing, once Rand gave the waking-world Justice to Tam.
Of course, there were many possible things which could have been expected that did not happen, and many that did happen which were total surprises.
and 500.
damn i wish i had something to say
Edit. well I will say this. Cadsuane makes sense as the next Amyrlin not just becasue of her age and reverence in the tower by other sisters but because after Egwene she is the only Aes Sedai to have gained the respect of the Wise Ones and that is important if she is going to continue Egwenes plan to connect the tower to all women who can channel.
The plan might change under Cadsuanes leadership but since many of the surviving sitters were fans of Egwene they may help promote some of her ideas.
It is kind of a shame that Egwene and Cadsuane were not able to meet and take the time to see the value in eachother.
I wonder if the Tower will have to issue rings to everyone they are connected to in order to keep the Seanchan from taking channelers. The one took Mogheiden becase she did not have the serpent ring.
not that the Aes Sedai know that.
Also are the Aiel going to just deny the Shaido and leave their wise ones in captivity? Would only the Shaido go agaisnt the Seanchan to get them back? The Aiel are know for being hard. Leaving the Shaido Wise Ones to the Seanchan would keep the Dragon’s Peace even if it is terrible. It would be a very hard choice.
Knotai is an awful name, but the Worst Name Ever is still Fortuona. Holy crap that’s a bad name.
I liked what Egwene said to Tuon but I would have liked it even more if she’d actually collared Tuon long enough for her to get the point. A’dam = bad.
Bela – Egwene was the character I was saddest to see go, but Bela was a very close second. At least she got her crowning moment of awesomeness. But she deserved to live to the end, and it would have been perfect for her to be there for Rand to ride off into his anonymous retirement.
Kaxon@501
At least “Fortuona” had the nice side effect of producing the coolest Tor handle (misfortuona I’m looking at you!)
Longtimefan@498
Most likely there were a couple of spam or trollish comments suitably balefired by our excellent moderators. Just like balefire cannot erase human memories, nor apparently can it erase someone’s “unlinking” from the Horn of Valere … well the balefire wielded by the moderators leaves the comment number unavailable for reuse.
489. Rand al’Todd
FIFY.
492.ValMar
Yes I did! :)
495.forkroot
LOL.
498.Longtimefan
I think Annoura’s fate was a carefully crafted hint for the readers that she is not BA. Saving Galad was an act of altruism, a huge risk taken for a friend – at great cost. This is precisely the opposite of the DO’s most dominant trait – selfishness – which is also the trait he looks for in his followers.
I believe quite strongly that every named character who was a darkfriend was revealed to be so by the time the Last Battle was well underway. Just as thoughtful cooperation and communication was always rewarded instantly throughout this series, likewise the sense of right and wrong in characters was fairly clear. Many people speculated off and on about different characters being evil; Bashere, Alanna, Lelaine, etc., but if it wasn’t made clear that they were playing for team shadow, then they weren’t. The only true wildcard of that type in the entire story was Verin, and Egwene nailed it when she said that Verin’s soul was pure white.
And, before I get plastered with those who claim that there were evil people on the side of the Light, I would make a distinction between wickedness and evil. Eamon Valda was wicked; Jaret Byar was wicked; Elaida was wicked. They were not evil, they were just so wrong about the limits of behavior, about honor, that they did not serve the Light. They could take a lesson from Chiad, holding firm to her ji, no matter the cost. Real honor is paying the cost willingly, rather than betraying your own belief.
A couple more points I forgot to include last night:
Re: Cadsuane. I didn’t want her to die but, like many others, expected her to. I think she can do well as the Amyrlin. Probably there is no one else more suitable for the role at the moment.
Re: Greandal. Her plot with ensnaring the Great Captains, and others, was probably the most competent plot the Shadow has done. Very subtly done too.
Re: Elayne. Did superb job, she is clearly a very formidable monarch. The scenes with Birgitte’s execution and the cutting out of the babes, etc, was really… stunning is one word. Hey grrMartin, what are you doing here, ASOIAF isn’t going to write itself!
Freelancer @@@@@ 198
This letter of Lincoln’s you quote is uncannily relevant to the situation Rand found himself in with the negotiations with Fortuona. I wonder if RJ or Brandon had it in mind for this plot.
I think it was very realistic that Rand, or anyone else living, couldn’t bring resolution to the damane/slavery issue with the Seanchan. Artur Hawkwing’s talk with the Little Bundle of Joy- Tuon, Mat, and Min will do the job, post Tarmon Gaidon. I hope. They’ll be swiming against the current.
subwoofer @@@@@ 276
First of all, glad to see you around here! About getting “formula”, it’s true to an extent. Due to time zones, I read the posts hours late, in the evening, or next day, so much is said already that I wanted to.
What you can do is stop being so somber and wise and be more flippant ;)
About what you write @@@@@ 276, I really empathise. I hope I can come back to the Quarry Road, with only Rand, Tam, and Bela for company, and then meet again Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Egwene… Right now, I don’t know…
Isilel @@@@@ 293
Re: Moiraine. Very good point that Mo and Nyn could’ve participated with emotional back-up to Rand in his confrontation with the DO. Also about the lack of emotional pay-off of her return after her huge absense and the bigging-up of her return.
Channeling was inflated through the books, indeed. This made it hard for Brandon. One could argue that both sides cancelled each other out, to an degree. Found it strange that Demandred with his enormous Power couldn’t break the Andorans despite pounding them for hours with little distraction.
JLevy @@@@@ 333
I also thought that the body switch sort of happened, without prior intent from Rand.
decgem @@@@@ 358
Assuming you overall point is true, there is one simple explanation why Alanna released the Bond in the last moment. As Nyn treated and stabilized her, Alanna thought that she will survive so she couldn’t betray the DO. But as Moridin stabbed her and she was about to die in the end, she could release the Bond finally.
Having said that, I don’t think Alanna was Black. I’d like to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Wolfmage @@@@@ 364
I agree that victory in the Last Battle was the priority. Egwene’s lack of composure was dangerous. But she did well to improve on Rand’s deal with the Seanchan.
forkroot @@@@@ 386
Like!
CorDarei @@@@@ 427
Not exactly missing the dictionary at the end, but at one point I went to “it” to check on something and nearly read the bloody ending! Given how anal I am about spoilers, this would’ve been hilarious to an Aiel.
RobM @@@@@ 458
lol
forkroot @@@@@ 478, MoM @@@@@ 479
I also have hopes for the Encyclopedia. Maybe some general outline of events in the early Fourth Age, at least. Or, for example, in the entry for Andor there to be a paragraph on the state after the Last Battle. Similarly for other places and, importantly, characters. A list of the first few Amyrlins in the Fourth Age- Cads, Logain, Moiraine…?
wcarter @@@@@ 485
I concur!
JLevy @@@@@ 503. Freelancer @@@@@ 504
I agree about Annoura and overall that there were no hidden DF left once the Last Battle begun in earnest. Annoura could’ve been one of the more reluctant DFs, like Delanna, but her sacrifice was too huge and personal, IMO. Also, Perrin already established what another suspicious AS was doing, Misuri (sp?)- trying some happles AS scheming with Masema.
If you check out the already posted AMoL signing events at Dragonmount and Theoryland, you’ll find that Harriet has substantial intentions for the encyclopedia. Aside from the normal academic matter expected of such a volume, it will contain some notes, plot outlines, character definitions, and even functional descriptions of many foreshadowings. It will certainly be over a year before it is published, and I haven’t read anything to suggest that Brandon will be more than tangentially involved.
Never thought Alanna was a Darkfriend, Rand saw her back in Tear when he exposed Weiramon in Towers of Midnight…. He would have exposed any others too…
@507
Actually, Alanna disappears right before the new integrated Rand comes back to Tear, so he would not have had a chance to play “Darkfriend detector” with her.
It’s interesting that she disappears with a small amount of channeling, but allegedly not enough to make a gateway. After that, Rand can only sense that she is “up north”.
I’m now wondering if Moridin showed up and kidnapped her (or she went willingly.) She could leave via his TP made gateway without anyone sensing it.
I’ve read through most of the 500 comments posted so far. While there are a small number expressing extreme views (I absolutely hate it vs. It is perfect), most have voted for the “I love it overall, but certain parts could have done better” department. If I could quickly further summarize the parts that people thought could be improved, it can be categorized as (i) the content – how the story have unfolded/ended (ii) the delivery – how the story was written (iii) the focus – the amount of on-screen/POV time for certain characters (or the lack of) and specific interactions with other specific characters (or the lack of).
Personally, I belong to one of the masses – I adored some specific scenes and how some parts of the story unfolded (some to my expectations but also those “why didn’t I think of that” moments), I also felt a tinge of regret why some interactions did not occur or wasn’t given screen-time. But overall, I am satisfied with the closure of the series, and gratified that I have this opportunity to see this through the end after 18 years.
To me, it is perfectly acceptable for people to voice their opinions and others to comment on these opinions and add their own. In this spirit, I would like to make a few comments. First, in a metaphorical sense, RJ is both the Creator and the Wheel – he created the fabric of the WOT world and its rules, and weaves the Pattern of the series as he wills it. In his passing, he has left enough notes and voice recordings (almost akin to specific Prophecies) to dictate how the Pattern is to be woven at least until the end of the Third Age. BS, like Rand, is bounded to follow what was written in the notes was given enough room and choice to determine how to fulfill it. Thus, to those who gripe about (i) above, my suggestion to them is “just accept it, you are not the Creator, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills”.
The Last Battle was delivered using over 200 pages. Some commented that it could have been shorter and allowed more air-time to show other interesting POV or scenes. In my opinion, I thought it was necessary, and the delivery was actually very suitable. At some point in the middle of this long chapter, I acknowledge that I did start to feel impatient, but pressed on to complete this in one shot. Nearer to the end, I was groaning mentally, anguishingly thinking, “will this never end?”. But when I took a step back to ponder, it hit upon me that this is probably what all the soldiers on the LB were going through (at least hundred times worse), with hope dimming by the minute. This parallel immersion is probably one of the key reasons so many readers felt dazed (aside from burning through the night reading the book, or staring hours unblinking reading pages after pages) after finishing the book. The Last Battle is draining and exhausting to the mind for our fictional participants, and the author actually made the reader (at least for me) feel similar effects in reality. So, in this respect, kudos to BS!
A number of people has expressed that they hated the last part where Rand rides off to the sunset in the body of Moridin, apparently leaving all his loved ones behind. However, the more I thought about it, the more I thought that this is a really apt ending. The Dragon Reborn needs to be “dead” in order for the Dragon Peace to survive. Rand specifically said that he was exchanging his life as a condition for the nations’ rulers to sign and adhere to the Dragon Peace. If Rand is to be seen as surviving the Last Battle, any one of the rulers may decide that since Rand is alive, the Dragon Peace could be nullified (since Rand’s life has not been exchanged for peace). Given that the Seanchan armies have largely survived the fight while most of the other armies are greatly depleted, I believe Tuon will likely break the pact and invade all the other nations to unify Randland. This will likely result in a Second Breaking or a Second War of a Hundred Years.
Furthermore, even if all the nations’ rulers decide to honor the pact if Rand turns out alive, it is likely politically unstable for the peace to survive. Rand will be seen as a savior to mankind, a number of nations may decide to hail him as the Emperor (including the fact that he still holds the title of King of Illian) while others may resist this notion. It is likely that nations may go to war because of Rand! On further thoughts, even if all nations hail Rand as the Emperor, when he dies, will there be another War of a Hundred Years or Secession War, given that he has so many offspring’s?
Last but not least on this topic, Moriaine has said that the Fourth Age has to start with peace given the balance the Pattern, so in a way, it will “force” peace no matter what happens. As a result, I believe that Rand will definitely have to “die”!
Now, if the Pattern needs Rand to die because of the Dragon Peace, there will be likely only two options, one is that Rand REALLY dies, or that all the world (except for a few) thinks that Rand has died. In the case, the second option was chosen by the Pattern.
On a related note, regarding the need to start the Fourth Age with long-lasting peace, I believe that Nakomi was there twice to ensure it happened. She is an avatar by the Creator (if the Dark One can have Shaidar Haran as his vessel, why can’t the Creator have one, “the Hand of the Light” too?), or in less likely terms spun out by the Pattern as a Hero of the Horn (I’ll explain later why the latter is less possible). The first time she was there to influence or nudge Avi to decide to ensure the Aiel are part of the Dragon’s Peace, as failure to do so means that the Peace can only last twenty years only (too short to be considered as starting the Fourth Age with peace). The second time, she was there to ensure that Rand (the body) makes it out of the cave to be displayed to the world that he really “died”. But the second time no intervention was needed, as Rand (in Moridin’s body) managed to takes Moridin (in Rand’s body) out of the cave. That is why I believe she said what she said (“Yes, that’s good. That is what you need to do”). On a little side mental note, I wonder, if Rand makes it out alive in his own body, would she somehow “kill” him to ensure that he really dies…?
Also, while the story has ended with Rand riding off, it does not mean that he is abandoning his friends and loved ones. He just need to remain hidden for a while for the world to believe that he has died. Perhaps after everything has settled down, he would quietly visit his 3 lovers and other friends.
Continuing with the topic of peace, Nicola has Foretold before that “the great battle done, but the world not done with battle”. The great battle probably refers to the final battle at the FOM, which ended after the Heroes of the Horn were summoned for the first time. The second phrase should be read as the series of mini-battle/duels that the main characters – Avi vs Graendal, Mat vs Shaisam, Perrin vs Lanfear and of course Rand vs Shaitan. Perhaps the parts on Gaul+wolves vs Slayer, Perrin vs Slayer, the Last Hunt, Thom vs DFs could be considered too.
Regarding the Heroes of the Horn, it is to my impression that all those Heroes have some real skills in combat and ALL are non-channelers. Even Noal/Jain has some skills with the staff. Maybe a channeler cannot be a Hero of the Horn, since if one can use One Power once in TAR, could they escape TAR like using weaves like what Egwene or the Forsaken did? Then what? When the Horn is being sounded, the Heroes get summoned to the real world and FIGHT (not channel). If this assertion is true, then this implies that Egwene (and Verin as well), despite her heroics, will not be bounded by the Horn, and thus explain why she did not turn up when Olver sounds the Horn (plus, her fighting skills are next to pathetic, as shown during the scene with Demandred). This said, she may still be reborn again in future generations when the Wheel needs a heroine channeller (just as the speculation that Egwene is the reborn of Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan). Still, it is a pity why Bela can’t be Jain’s mount…
Opps, I actually turned a commentary into a theory post, sorry for that and I hope it is still appropriate!
@508
She is present when he arrives in the Stone of Tear…. Check the book, I dont have it here but im sure she’s there, she disappears right after his arrival…
@510
No, she disappears just before he arrives. Cadsuane is talking to people about her just before Rand arrives.
huaixiong @509
You hit upon a point that I was waiting to comment upon. Rand’s anonymous departure was necessary in one very devious aspect. The Dragon’s Peac is, in effect, his Last Will to mankind. To use far more eloquent words which make this point:
~Hebrews 9:15-17
A person’s Last Will and Testament is not executed until their death. One can quibble and claim that Rand did, in a sense, die in the Pit of Doom, while he yet lives. Knowing what we do of the national rulers in this land, they would begin fighting almost immediately over the legal implications, forgetting in an instant that their entire existence had been protected by the Dragon. That would be unprofitable. Better that they all recognize that he fulfilled his part, and that their obligation is now in force.
@507, 508, 510 re: Alanna
She was unexpectedly among the delegation that met Rand when he came to deal with Darlin Sisneros at the Stone. This was before he met and almost killed Tam, before he considered destroying Ebou dar, before Dragonmount. Later, when Cadsuane, Bera, Min et al discover that Alanna is gone, it is just before Rand returns from Dragonmount. So no, we have no chance to have Rand look into her eyes. Whether or not he might have detected a connection to the shadow on her part via the bond, we never learn.
First of all this- this commentary – is awesome! Yeah, there are some haters, and troll-like individuals around, but for the most part everyone is just expressing their personal response the epicness (that is too a word) of the end. It takes me back to the days of server crashing and serious bunker parties. I have been away too long.
I see you Forkroot @386. :D Just a thought on your ‘Logain for Amyrlin’ campaign… I agree sort of, though I think Androl would make a better choice. He is a natural leader and, in truth with the mind-merging thingy (more technical jargon) between him and Pevara, they could lead the tower together for a true reforming of the Aes Sedai.
Knotai – Okay, maybe I’m just crazy, I’ve been told it’s true, but I like the name. I won’t be using it when referring to our Prince of Ravens, but given the possible origins of the name… No-toy, Naughty, No-tie, well I think it just works for our trickster. This may have been addressed, but you audio book peeps, how is it pronounced? Where is a good glossary when you need one!
BTW I am so looking forward to the Encyclopedia. I know it isn’t going to answer everything I want to know. We’d need another trilogy at least for that. But I am hoping that many of my questions will be addressed in it… and besides I’m not sure how I’d function without a WoT book to anticipate.
Mis-needs to get a copy of the Audible book as well now.
The one thing that I find I missed is that there was no real epilogue. The “epilogue” really was more of a last chapter — I would have preferred something 15 years down the road, a little snippet thing. I hate to say it, but something like the end of Harry Potter – just a glimpse of the world well after everything is done… so you see that while there is an ending, it’s not the end. But that is just me.
huaixiong @@@@@ 509:
That was certainly true for me. I thought The Last Battle was one of the most skillfully composed battle scenes I’ve read. The relatively short sections as the focus shifted from location to location, Rand’s battles with the DO, the shocks and surprises, all maintained a tension and exhaustion throughout the many pages. I discovered that I was sneaking peaks at the page numbers seeking clues as to how much longer can this go on. But then when I’d turn the page I’d cover the right hand page with my hand so I wouldn’t see anything too soon.
It was a very deft weave. There were numerous times while reading that chapter that I just had to stop and get up and go somewhere else. I’ve never had quite that experience reading before.
Finally made it through all the comments…Whew! It took me longer to get through the audiobook since, like an idiot, I forgot to specify next day delivery (actually 2nd day delivery out here) from Amazon. I’ll start my reread shortly (or maybe wait for Leigh’s reread to start).
Overall I thought the book was outstanding. Not quite exquisite as I had several disappointments, although I mainly expected them, particularly not wrapping up all the loose ends. I am one who really likes to have all the loose ends wrapped up but it couldn’t have been done in this book. Hopefully a lot of that will show up in the encyclopedia.
The ending was bittersweet for me: Rand is at peace but he will be separated from his loves and others (not for too long I hope).
I thought Fain’s ending was rather abrupt but not sure what else could/should have been done. Outside of giving Rand at least the germ of the idea of how to cleanse saidin, he didn’t really have much purpose.
My only problem with Cadsuane as Amyrlin is her thinking about male channelers (in ToM she still thinks of Rand as “that boy” although I don’t believe she says it aloud after Rand’s comment on how old he is). But she’s not likely to live much longer, so maybe she can get Egwene’s ideas really rolling in the WT.
Demandred had to be in Shara but I will admit his entrance onto the battle field was pretty awesome, even if he was totally around the bend when it came to Rand. Did he really think the DO would let Demandred fight and possibly kill Rand before the DO/Rand confrontation?
Certainly did not see the Hinderstap zombies coming!! LOL
I don’t believe Hopper can be in the Last Hunt since he died the final death it TAR. He will be missed. As will Bela. I would love to have seen Rand ride off into the sunset on Bela!
Oh, wow, that was some wild ride – I read the book over three evenings and I’ve only now had the chance to gather my thoughts somewhat. I feel like Thom, trying to put words to something huge and epic and hard to describe, but Aunty Leigh wasn’t wrong when she said it was going to be a hugely satisfying read. I mean, I didn’t expect all of our cast of thousands to survive the Last Battle in one piece, but I still got the sniffles when Egwene died.
I know that given the choice between maybe 300 years of getting bitter, politicking with the Hall and going out in a blaze of glory, taking out a Forsaken and corruptor of the Black Tower during the Last Battle, Egwene would absolutely go for the latter, but damn, that *hurt*. I should have realised something like this would happen once her idiot Gawyn picked up those rings, but oh. This isn’t GRRM, this is Robert Jordan, for crying out loud! She’d better come back as a Hero of the Horn, along with Bela (Bela! Oh, Bela). Actually, even better, she should go down in the history of the Third Age as the most Legendary Amyrlin ever, a story to inspire for centuries to come.
So much else went on in the book that I haven’t had the chance to think through the half of it, so I’m really looking forward to the continuation of the re-read (although how Leigh deals with that GIANT chapter, I want to see!) Two things in the meantime – the first is the prize for the funniest moment in the book and possibly the record for longest shaggy dog story setup – poor Jur Grady and his confusion at the residents of Hinderstap. I stopped reading and laughed for about ten minutes when I hit that one :) The other is the biggest unsolved mystery – I know that there was no way in hell Brandon was going to be able to tie up all the threads, and RJ explicitly stated that many of them wouldn’t be, but I want to know whatthehell happened to Alanna between disappearing out of Tear and fetching up in Shayol Ghul. That’s not so much a loose end, as a gap in the narrative that I would love to be filled somehow. Anyway, it was long, it was epic, it was fun, and it’s amazing to finally know the end. Now I’m going to have to go back and read all 400+ comments again and start thinking about what a re-read of the whole series would be like with it finished.
I`m kind of puzzled that Fain could be killed by his own dagger, I thought it had become a part of him in some way. He wasn`t affected by nicking himself on it, so I didn`t think the turning black thing would happen. And somehow I thought he`d be immune from being stabbed by it.
And how was Mat immune from the effects of Mashadar? He says something about not being able to catch the same disease twice. But when was Mat caught by Mashadar the first time?
I could understand him being immune to the dagger`s poison, having been Healed of it once, but I found the Mat/Fain/dagger sequence confusing. Mat seemed to be too invincible and Fain too easy to kill. Is this still the Fain who tortures Myrrdraal for fun?
So I`m confused…
@518 – well, he got stabbed through the heart with it, which tends to be fatal irregardless of whatever nastiness is on the blade. Maybe the blackness et al wasn’t from the dagger per se, but Fain’s own evil inside him eating away at his own dead body. So the dagger through the heart killed him, then his body melted from it’s own evil, not anything added by the dagger. That’s how I think about it.
Mat’s immunity to Mashadar is in reference to the nastiness he took in when he had the dagger in books 1&2.
huaixiong @@@@@ 509
Great point about connecting two extremely important issues in AMOL- Rand’s “death” and the Dragon Peace. I feel a bit sheepish not thinking of it myself. Please post more often here!
misfortuona @@@@@ 513
Agree completely with you about the commentary! That’s why it’s taken me so long to catch up- very little to skim over or skip.
sushisushi @@@@@ 517
I think you are offering Egs a bit of a false choice there. Instead of 300 years of getting bitter and politicking, she was just starting her work as an Amyrlin to restore the WT to a greatness not seen since before the Trolloc Wars. Egwene was pretty skilled at this politicking and had great sense of responsibility, which probably led to her heroic death too.
She knowingly or willingly sacrificed herself but if she could avoid it I’m sure she would. Also, she was in a precarious mental state due to Gawyn’s death.
deebee @@@@@ 518
Maybe Fain could survive a nick from the dagger but not being gutted with it? Maybe the body turned black since it was full with the vileness and after death nothing held it in check and it consumed the carcass. Mat “caught” Mashadar from the dagger, that’s the only explanation.
PS CT12 got there before me.
I just wanted to say thanks for this update, when I read your first spoiler review, I decided right then and there I would goto the New York release party just to say your horrible, LOL. The release party was too packed ;-). I was finally able to finish my AMoL rereads to my satisfaction (about 5 times) and thought about your review again. Thanks.
Well, I’m momentarily caught up on the comments… Just a few random thoughts for now, generated by the comments:
E-books – IIRC, ebook sales don’t play into the big “Bestseller Lists” the same way hardcovers do, and as part of making RJ’s final legacy the best it could be, Harriet wanted to make sure it would debut at #1. Which it did – on the NYT, USA Today, and several others. If you release the ebook the same day, or even within a few weeks, there’s a serious risk that it won’t even make the list, much less start at the top – especially for a fantasy, where a large portion of the fandom are tech types.
Knotai – Also consider: Not Eye, or Naught Eye, as part of the word-play.
Heroes – yes, it is possible for a Hero of the Horn to be a channeler. Rand is both, after all.
Okay, that was short. More in a half-hour or so. Life calls.
Valmar@520
I guess in recent books Fain has seemed uber-powerful so I expected it to take something special to overcome him. I guess if he can whistle up Mashadar to subdue his victims first maybe he never was that powerful after all.
Whatever, I felt he was built up to have a wild-card role due to some abilities which were unprecedented in Randland. All the way through AMOL I was thinking “where`s Fain, he has some special role, what is he doing?”
And then- nope. No special relevance, unique to this turning of the Wheel or not. Just a moment when I wondered if Shaisam would become Shai`tan…so I guess there was some tension there, briefly.
I guess he joins Masema in the fishpool of red herrings.
About Alanna
That’s right, she is not there… But I still don’t see how someone can think she is a Darkfriend…. I think Min said she could be trusted by Rand…???
deebee @@@@@ 523
What you say is true, at least as I see it. But I never found Fain’s story compelling so I’m not bothered about it. It doesn’t make it right though. I think it’s never good for a reader to find themselves in a “much ado about nothing” situation at the end of a plot line.
But if we think about it, Fain was more prominent in the first half of the series and that’s when he influenced the plot significantly. Dagger + Mat (and the brilliant scene in the inn in Caemlyn), the Horn of Valere, Two Rivers… Later on he was in the background and had less influence, relatively speaking.
Little nuggets here and there and his absense probably made him seem more important. Plus we got less from what we expected elsewhere too.
I think it would’ve been best if Fain was killed in Far Madding.
So Satella Anan…final resting place in a Trolloc Cook-pot? I’m pretty sure the last reference to her is just after Faile and Co. enter the waygate to the Trolloc/Sharan battlelines. That kinda sucks…I always thought at somepoint she was going to cross paths w/ Nynaeve and get restored, although i’m not sure “stilling” and “burn-out” is exactly the same.
Oh Yes, I just remembered a thought that I had been thinking before I commented and then couldn’t remember when it came time to write down my thoughts. But now since I have recalled said thought y’all can go ahead and tell me why it should have remained forgotten. Okay then!
Regarding Rand’s new handy dandy invisible pipe lighter. Could this be, rather than any manifestation of power; one, true, or creator’s hand, a side effect of the tear in TAR? Could it be that if Perrin decided now to call Mah’allrinir, might it come?
Mis-strange things happen when I think sometimes
P.S. @524 I don’t recall at the moment that Min said Rand could trust Alanna, but I don’t think being a DF would necessarily have made her untrustworthy.
mis-returned @527
The immediate impression I got from Rand lighting the pipe was as you say, a leakover from tel’aran’rhiod into the Waking World, allowing him to have things as he wishes them by thought alone, while near that place. But he isn’t really close to where the Bore was sensed at Shayol Ghul, so I don’t think that’s it. More plausible (?) is that his visit into the Halls of Creation, as it were, gave him an awareness which permits him some measure of elemental control.
About Alanna, Min tells Rand that the five Aes Sedai — Bera, Rafela, Faeldrin, Merana, and Alanna — would keep their word. Also that she saw them in his hand. A bit different than saying they are trustworthy, but there it is.
More random miscellany –
The triple bonding – As has been thoroughly clarified by now (I should hope) – YES, THE BOND IS STILL IN PLACE. Sorry for shouting. All three women are still bonded to Rand as he rides away. They will find him, or he them, when they want.
Leane – While we don’t get it spelled out in so many words, it’s clear from p. 406 that Demandred sent her on her way. No “escape” was required – he wanted her to take a message to Rand. While I was indeed curious as to how/where he sent her, we aren’t told that; instead, we cut to Egwene’s realization that she’s going to have to escape from under the nose of a Forsaken.
(Related: my guess is that “Bao the Wyld” will turn out to be part of the Sharan prophecies. I’ll ask Brandon at the signing, unless someone beats me to it now.)
(Loosely related – A.Fox, it may have been your comment on Leane and the “handwaving” that triggered my use of that term, but you’re far from the only one to assume that since you don’t remember it happening, it didn’t. There’s been a lot of it – hence my frequent amusement.)
Just in case others missed forkroot’s amendments @31, I must mention again the fun little combo of Almen Bunt and Renald Fanwar; two characters with four scenes between them, but they get a quick call-out here. Glad to know they both made it to the battle – and I hope they made it home again. I doubt it, but it would be nice.
(Speaking of which… would you guys stop going back and amending your earlier posts with significant extra stuff? I was really only planning to read through this beast one time!)
Two bodies – Having gone back through the text several times, there’s no clear evidence which body did the carrying and which body was carried, so we’ll each have to decide what makes the most sense to us. From what little I’ve seen of signing reports so far, it sounds like Brandon doesn’t really know either. Maybe RJ didn’t know. :) Also, would this be Min’s viewing of “two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs”? Or is that… somewhere else?
Perrin – How many people complained that he “slept through the whole Last Battle”?? Really? Per the text, he didn’t sleep much at all, except for the few hours he was in Mayene for Healing. He was in the Wolf Dream/Tel’Aran’Rhiod, but since he was there in the flesh, he wasn’t sleeping. He was… quite active. I’m also bemused at the number of people who feel that his reward for choosing Rand over Faile this time – for putting the fate of the world ahead of his love for his wife – should have been rewarded by her dying. Some reward. Thanks.
AndrewB – “Wetlander” is just fine with me. I only added the “nw” for my login because some joker who never uses it had already scammed the “Wetlander” username.
Heroes reborn – When asked at what point a reborn soul enters the body, RJ said “I’d have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.” This does not exactly fit with the implication of Birgitte’s statement here, that
which makes it sound like the soul enters the body at birth. In the long run, it doesn’t really matter; Birgitte could be wrong about the timing, or RJ/Team Jordan decided to do it differently. FWIW, though, if Birgitte is right, Gaidal Cain would now be just under a year old. If you go with conception, he’d be about 2 months. So there’s your age range for Cain. Also – if Birgitte is right and her new mother is about to give birth, it could be Melaine; I don’t suppose there’s any restriction on her being a twin.
Kin/Novices/Accepted – Given the amount of Healing needed during the Last Battle, and the fact that by the end the Aes Sedai doing the Healing were completely exhausted and could barely channel any more, I can’t help thinking that those with less training in stress situations were far more useful giving their linked strength to the Healers than to those on the battlefield. In the middle of a fight, their added strength would have been outbalanced by their lack of experience and the need the AS would feel to protect them. Put them in Mayene to support the Healers and get real fighters back to the battle sooner!
Elayne’s babies – the DO (or Moridin) had some reason to want them. Was it to do something to them like was done to Isam, to raise them in Shadow? Was it merely to show Rand and make him despair, or do something stupid, or sacrifice himself for them? We don’t know, and probably never will. But they were intended to be brought there alive, even though they were only 6 months along. That much is quite clear from the text.
Wetlandernw@522
Sorry, I don’t think Rand is a Hero of the Horn. He is the Dragon, yes, he (or his soul) is spun out by the Wheel time and again to battle the Dark One, but I do not think he can be summoned by the Horn when it is blown. I am referring to the specific hundred plus heros that appears to fight when the Horn is blown.
Anyway it is clearly stated in the book that Dragon has a specific relationship with the Heroes of the Horn under three conditions, that is, (i) the Horn is blown the Heroes get summoned from TAR (ii) fights FOR the Dragon as the leader and (iii) follow the direction/presence of the Dragon Banner (or at least the ancient AS symbol)
I think what the confusion here is that the Wheel can choose to spin out certain souls to be born to the world, including the Dragon, a Hero of the Horn (like Gaidal and Birgitte) and others (including the speculation that Egwene was the reborn of Eldrene). Heroes are bound both to the Wheel AND the Horn (as a subset) but souls like Rand are bound to the Wheel only. My point here is that the Pattern bounds only non-channelers to the Horn to FIGHT battles, but when channelers are needed, get them reborn to the world.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 522.
The problem with the NYT Best Seller argument against e-books being released at the same time as the print copy is that it’s not at all unsual for books to make the #1 at the NYT Best Sellers list whether the e-book is released at the same time or not. In fact, a large number of #1 best sellers at release [i]do/i] in fact release both print and e-books at the same time, rendering the argument rather moot. This is particularly true of authors who have been releasing books at #1 for several years in the role, as The Wheel of Time has efficiently demonstrated.
As I’ve pointed out before in the thread specifically about this subject, it also completely ignores the people who have no other options but the e-book for reading novels. E-books have given access to people who ordinarily have to wait for large-print copies or more significantly, people who have difficulties handling hard copy novels at all. This is not an insignificant number (although I guess it can be considered to be by those who simply don’t care about the disadvantaged members of the population, which unfortunately is all too frequently the case) and it’s highly unfortunate that it’s considered more important to hedge one’s bets than to consider those who have physical disadvantages. That’s easy to do when it’s not you who has the disadvantage, but I’m also of the opinion that compassion and understanding should be in greater supply whether you can sympathize directly or not.
It’s too bad that I seem to be in the minority there, but sadly that’s to be expected.
toryx – I have no horse in the race; just passing on what I’ve read elsewhere as reasons given for this decision.
huaixiong – Well, there is the minor detail that RJ said that Rand is one of the Heroes.
Wow…lots of really good comments to catch up on!
A couple of quick thoughts….
I think you are absolutley right, huaixiong@509..Rand had to appear to die to make the Peace Treaty enforceable. I also think he deserved a peaceful future of his own making as a reward for a job well done.
He does seem to be One with the Pattern, so while he can no longer channel, he will enjoy a few special “privilages” in life, however that may manifest. After all, he has intimate knowledge of the Pattern, having viewed it from the outside, and having actually rewoven part of it.
I also envision him quietly revealing himself to a few people as time goes by. The wives will be able to find him at any time through the bond, and can travel to him instantly. (I’m sure they will help Min to do so, as well, if she is not with him most of the time.)
Rand does have some very unique and important knowledge from the AoL in his head, that could be very helpful in this new age. Cadsuane, for one, could really benefit from his knowledge of the workings of the combined Tower from that age. (She also suspects that Rand switched bodies, as she sees his eyes when he exits the tent to ride away.) Perhaps she will seek him out as a secret advisor. I do think Rand earned her respect in the time after his epiphany.
One question that I keep forgetting to mention…..Verin’s letters! Did any of them appear in AMoL? I was dying to see a couple of these revealed. One was delivered to Rand by Siuan when he appeared at the White Tower. And there were others. Anyone???
toryx,
Well, step outside of the re-read, and you might not seem to be in the minority at all. Most who “review” the book on Amazon have read not a word of it, and are using the opportunity to complain about the lack of an ebook. And you can call it selfishness, lack of vision, or whatever else comes to mind; you can say it’s a moot issue because the book would have made it anyway, but Harriet did say at the first signing event that she wanted to be certain AMoL released at #1, and didn’t finish the legacy on a down note, and that was the prime motivation for delaying the digital release. It’s done, and won’t be undone.
Tektonica,
No, there was no more than tangential mention of red-sealed envelopes. We get to see no more of Verin’s sneakiness or wisdom. Sorry.
fookroot @@@@@ 508…Mordin kidnapping Alanna from the Stone
makes sense given what we know. No one saw her leave in a
more ordinary manner either. I don’t think she was a
darkfriend (not on Verins’ list, IIRC). so a TP kidnapping
fits the bill.
@@@@@ many
Padan Fain…If you put all of his appearances in this story
together you really only get about one or two chapters. He
was a truly creepy character and much more disturbing than
any of the Forsaken, IMO. I think we were kinda coaxed to
expect more at the end but his brief appearance at the end is
consistent with his entire character arc.
Made a note to myself towards the end of the book :
re: Callandor. As it turned out, when Rand saw Callandor and
the Dragon Banner at Paaran Disen during his flashback when
the Aes Sedai were getting ready to create the Eye of the
World, the implication becomes that Callandor was created
specifically for the Dragon to reseal the Dark Ones prison
and the banner, horn and well of power were all put in place
to support that process. The Aes Sedai who did the
foretelling was quite a Fortune teller.
Didn’t see anything like this as I went through the comments so maybe it too ovious for anyone to comment on or that I’ve gone totally around the bend.
red-sealed red herrings
@wetlander: I was not aware RJ has mentioned this. Ah well, bound to the Wheel or bound to the Horn (or Heroes of the Wheel or Heroes of the Horn) , I hope that there will be clearer clarification in the Encyclopedia whether both concepts are the same or the subset of one vs another…
I would like to make another set of remarks regarding the use of gateways in the Last Battle. I saw quite a number of people, after seeing new creative uses of gateways in this last book, commented that why can’t the concept be used in a larger context to win the Last Battle (e.g. gateway to lava or the sea to destroy the Dark forces) and the apparent limited use seems illogical.
Well, let’s visit the rules/prerequisites of creating gateway/Travelling: (i) the channeler must have sufficient strength (ii) some skill/dexterity is needed to be able to control the size of the gateway (iii) maintaining a gateway is exhausting, and most importantly (iv) the channeler needs time to be sufficiently familiar with his/her surroundings to create a gateway, unless it is for a short distance away.
The restriction of (iv) created the necessity of the Travelling Ground. Alternatively, one could try Skimming, or like what Rand did in Far Madding, travel a short distance away to the place where they memorized the surroundings enough for Travelling (the two-jump method). The two-jump method could theoretically be extrapolated by the channeler making a series of jumps (like what Perrin did in the shifting the first dream-spike to escape Slayer) but it will be extremely tiring, better to do Skimming in this case.
In this last book, I assumed that the AS/Ashaman/Kin/damane who were tasked with creating gateways were really focused on memorizing a new place immediately so that they can be useful, or alternatively use the two-jump / Skimming method. Gateways used for retreating from an immediate threat (especially on FOM), were likely short jumps that bypass the familiarity restriction.
In the series, it seems that only Androl has the Talent (with a big “T”), which enabled him to uniquely bypass these restrictions/rules. I remember in this last book there is a short paragraph by Pevara asking Androl about how it too (about Page 605, I suspect it is the way BS has subtly added to remind readers of it). Furthermore, with Androl’s strength in the One Power, gateways are the ONLY weave that he can rely on, which actually forces him to be really creative (plus his rich exposure and experience of his past probably gave him some innovative inspiration as well). A poor person with a hundred dollars probably has more creative ways to use this money to stretch its value as compared to a rich person.
Furthermore, the knowledge of Travelling was initially restricted to the Forsaken and a few main characters, then gradually spread to the Ashamen, the Salidar AS, the Kin/Sea Folk/Aiel and finally the Tower AS and Seanchan towards latter part of the series. People strong in the Power like Rand, Egwene, Avi and Elayne, with their strength with One Power, probably never spend time to think about how their weaves could be used in other useful manners. While the Gray Ajah (plus Mat) has started to leverage the usefulness of the gateway for other purposes (“recon satellite”, “Fedex delivery”, “walkie-talkie”, dragon in a safe location), too little time has transpired for mass propagation for people to start thinking about other creative uses.
If we consider this two aspects, then it is no wonder that gateways were not so creatively used in this last book (other than its original Travelling purpose), as some readers would like to.
Now, I would also like to make a comment on the use of gateway (aside from deathgates) as a weapon of war. Firstly, its usefulness is much restricted due to the condition (iv) above, any channeler who open up a gateway in familiar surroundings at the front-lines becomes a stationary target.
Secondly, I was glad that Androl only used his “gateway to hell (lava)” feat in Cairhein where there were mainly/fully only Trollocs. Probably there were no channelers on the Dark side on that battlefront to feedback to Demandred on this creative use of the gateway. If the news was reported to him, or Androl demonstrated a second use on the FOM, it is likely that the enemy would have learnt it and used them back on the forces on the Light on the field! The result may be a disaster!
Therefore given the above two considerations, I assert that even if the Light side has considered using this approach on the FOM, it would not have worked to turnaround the tide. To create such a huge “gateway to hell/sea”, a huge circle consisting of men and women will be needed. Androl, the Talented Pageboy, was able to create a gateway a hundred-feet across using a circle of 26 in Cairhein. He has to open the gateway for a few minutes to do enough damage to turn aside the Trollocs. He was lucky that there were no channelers to strike him down in Cairhein, but we have Demandred with a FULL circle with a Sa-angreal on FOM. Should Androl (or another who will need to spend A LOT of time to learn the familiarity of the ground) attempted this feat there, the moment he opened the gateway, he would probably be struck down by balefire within 5 seconds, along with everyone in his circle. Then, Demandred would learn the same trick and return it back to the forces of the Light! Remember, Logain wisely terminated his circle of 39 when he felt the full power of Demandred’s circle, so that he not become a target, and asked to split his channelers with him to 4 teams. Like Mat said, tactics must be considered, to foolishly concentrate all forces for one huge push with chances of failure, will be akin to commit the forces of the Light to the way of our dear Gawyn the Rash One, or like Weiramon the puffed-up rooster.
My crack!hope was that Mat would somehow combine the dragons and steam-wagons, and the Band would enter the battle with tanks ;P
Huaixiong @530:
Not only is LTT a Hero of the Horn, as has been already mentioned by Wetlandernw, but IIRC Jordan said somewhere (interview gurus to the rescue!) that not all Heroes are fighters at all. Martial prowess isn’t a requirement for being bound to the Horn.Wetlandernw @529:
Yes, the bond is still clearly in place… but how? Wasn’t the weave applied to the body and not the soul? It certainly looked that way, in all the bonding scenes. It is all more than a bit confusing, IMHO.
My problem with Perrin’s arc in books 7 -14 is that when he chose Faile over Rand there were no negative consequences for the cause of Light – in fact, everything that Perrin did in his obsession over Faile turned out to be just what the doctor ordered, because of his being ta’veren.
And now that he chose Rand over Faile, there were no negative consequences either. Both of these outcomes make his choices hollow.
I am more than ever convinced that the PLOD was a colossal waste of time – except for the wolf-dream aspect Perrin was already where he needed to be for the end as of ACOS:
There was a very real sense that he might choose Faile over Rand, Faile already stayed behind and played a non-combat role that she was trained for, rather than wanting to be a hero, Perrin was already enough of a leader of people, given his eventual role in the Last Battle.
And the only thing that Perrin lacked – the wolf-dream/T’AR developement was crammed into the very last 2 books. What was there was good, but it could have been expanded a bit and would have felt less contrived if it was happening over a longer period, rather than in the nick of time completely by the seat of his pants.
RJ, with all respect, really overused these devices, taking out a lot of tension out of proceedings. It is almost comics-strip like.
Another thing is, that I, personally, felt it cheap that of the main cast Egwene is the only one who dies, while everybody else gets to live happily ever after with their soul-mate. Shouldn’t people losing spouses been yet another aspect of the heavy price that humanity payed for it’s salvation?
Faile’s being one of a rather large number of fake deaths didn’t help any either.
I disagree. The AS building strong circles with those Novices/Accepted would have significantly increased their firepower/defensive capabilities and prevented so many people getting killed/hurt in the first place. Not to mention that non-rebel Novices/Accepted actually had combat experience due to the WT raid. I thought that the whole point of so many powerful channelers turning up during Egwene’s recruitment drive, and a lot of them older women with life-experience, was specifically so that they could be thrown into the Last Battle.
Excluding them, as well as several thousands of Aiel Wise Ones, Windfinders and most of the Asha’man (IIRC there was a thousand in the Black Tower as of… WH? CoT?) was just a device to make normal troops more relevant.
RJ really made it difficult for soldiers to matter, with his over-poweredness of channelers and their vast numbers, so Sanderson had to fudge.
@495 Forkroot.
Why would Hawkwing, carrying his sword “Justice” go ‘huh?’ at Tam’s sword with entwined dragons on it? P307.
I wonder what Lews Therin’s sword had on it? :)
I’m still waiting for the paper book to start my (re)read, but I finished the audiobook. I thought ordering from a bookshop would be faster than waiting for amazon because ToM was delivered some days late from amazon, but that obviously didn’t work. Both times I got tired of waiting and got the audiobook from audible. Is there a Dreamspike that kept Androl from opening a Gateway for me to a US midnight release / signing?
Letting the three blademasters fight Demandred is an interesting way to tell people who didn’t read the Q&A who is the best. Lan’s victory mirrors his fight against Ryne in New Spring (He was better. But you surrender after you die.) and his advice to Rand (sheathing the sword) early in the series, making his story come back to the beginning like the turning of the Wheel.
It is fitting that Mat doesn’t want to be a Hero of the Horn because he would have to obey the Call of the Horn. It parallels Rand’s understanding that being forced to be good is as bad as being forced to be evil. Mat doesn’t want to do something because he is ordered to do it, but he will rescue the drowning girl every time, no matter how many people laugh at him.
I like how Rand reacts to Tuon’s claim to the land as Hawkwing’s heir by going into arrogant LTT mode to show her he could beat her at that game but then just asks her to sign his treaty.
Mat the Trickster should know better than to expose Rand’s singing trick to make the garden flower.
The wolf Heroes called by the Horn to fight the Wild Hunt is a typical RJ splitting of a myth.
It is fitting that the Little Wolf is kept from acting on his Compulsion by a Wolfbrother and the wolves.
“We need a miracle.” – “Androl, see to it.” Androl should have assembled a full circle and gone to Mat. Then Mat would have directed his attacks to win the battle in a few minutes.
Rand doesn’t really abandon his women. They know how to find him, and he leaves the choice to them (they always say it is their business, anyway, and he finally accepts that. Earlier in the book he asks Avi if they will always decide among themselves whose turn it is to be with him without asking him and she says of course they will.).
Also I’m curious, how are the girls supposed to find him, did the bond somehow transfer to the new non-chaneller body?
The bond is probably to the soul, not the body, and moved with Rand. Didn’t one of the women feel his bond in a POV? I need the paper book, looking up things in an audiobook is too inconvenient.
If Dreamwalkers can enter TAR in the flesh like Slayer and Perrin that could be how Nakomi appeared / disappeared (maybe she brought Avi into TAR to make the food cook faster).
Freelancer @@@@@ 534:
I don’t consider those pathetic fools purposely driving down the ratings on Amazon to be of like mind. They’re selfish children who are only angry that they’re not getting their instant gratification and like children are lashing out.
I’m speaking for the disadvantaged who are being forced to wait several additional months to read the book because of Harriet’s decision to act against evidence to the contrary. I know it’s not going to change, I’m not trying to change it. I just don’t want people to forget about the people who rely on e-books and for good reason. I’ve not seen many people thinking of them.
I’m personally not one of them (ordered my book on Amazon and read it last weekend) but I know several people who have no other option but to wait until April because of their disabilities. That sucks and I sympathize for them a great deal.
The question is: Are the bad Amazon ratings the just punishment for cheating* to get the #1 spot on the hardcover beststeller lists? ;-)
*I assume that the competitors for this spot did publish the e-book version of their books and thus have lower hardcover sales. So, in a way, not releasing the e-book to ensure the beststeller status is cheating. Most likely unnecessary cheating, which also inconvenienced a lot of people (some of which abuse Amazon’s rating system to vent their “anger”).
Birgitte@542: Yes…As the Three Wives are watching Rands old body burn on the pyre, Min comments on feeling the pulse of the Bond in the back of her head. So it appears that the Bond is to the soul, as it definitely passed into Rands shiny new body with him.
Talking battle tactics….Logain learned a few things from Rand at the Manor house where Rand was staying in an earlier book, about Deathgates and other combat weaves, yet none were employed here. Odd. He could’ve taught those weaves to the other Ashaman. ??
It also seems to me that we were many hundred Light side channelers short in the LB, too. We seemed to have been missing Windfinders that weren’t working the Bowl, the Kinswomen, and other WiseOnes, besides our main characters. Wasn’t one of the points of the series, that the AS had missed many channelers due to their rules and prejudices about age and loyalty to the Tower? The LB would’ve been a nice place for them to show their worth and skills.
Perhaps this was Sandersons need to show the common soldiers as heros, but really this whole story wasn’t about them. Yes, the LB was for all mankind, but our focus throughout the series was on specific people, and storylines which focused more on this amazing ability to Channel.
I guess minor nitpicks are coming up now that I’ve had some time to digest it all. (I still wish we’d seen a couple of Verin’s letters!!)
I can’t believe Leigh didn’t get choked up when Loial thought that he had to keep fighting because he had a book to write. That meta-reference to Robert Jordan’s approach to fighting his disease brought tears to my eyes. I had to put the book down, and I was worried that it meant, like Mr. Jordan, Loial wasn’t going to make it.
Isilel@540 and Wetlander: Point taken. Case closed :)
It has been awhile since I last posted but I wanted to share a few thoughts. I, too, am grateful to BS for finishing the series in grand style. The fast pace of the last three books, especially AMOL, reminded me more of TEOTW and TDR. He packed in so much action into these 900 pages.
So much to like.
Egwene’s awesomeness in destroying Taim and the Sharan channelers while stabilizing the pattern.
Perrin’s mastery of T’AR and battle with slayer was well done, although a bit drawn out..
The TR led uprising at the Black Tower
Androl Pevara mind meld.
The great captain corruption plot line was unexpected but led very nicely to Mat taking over. I didn’t believe Graendel had the military knowledge to carry it out. Must have been under heavy guidance from Demandred.
Did anyone in fandom figure out that Callandor was intentionally flawed by its makers so that Moridin could be trapped and controlled? That was a surprise to me. Kudos to Min for puzzling it out. Tremendous.
Did Rand become a demi-god, or creator lite at the end? I think I like this but am not sure. Does he retain his positive effect on the land? If so, many will suspect he is still alive. To paraphrase a line from “The Outlaw Josey Wales” – ‘Not a hard man to track, leaves flowering trees wherever he goes.’
No need to highlight empty spaces anymore.
A few things to not like, or just to puzzle over.
I understand that AMOL was not my story to tell but a few things felt out of character for the series. The destination didn’t match the journey.
I’m surprised that the Seanchan and Padan Fain had so little to do. Both were integral parts of the entire series. Padan Fain, especially, was there from the beginning, consistently leveling up in strength and evil intent. He was built up through the series and became more dangerous to Rand than most of the forsaken, even rivaling the DO in his powers. Then he fell off the map. What happened? Why build up a character with significant anti-DO powers if he had little use in the end? Their story lines felt truncated.
The philosophical struggle between Rand and the DO regarding free will and choice seemed sophomoric and unoriginal. More importantly, it didn’t fit in with statements made by RJ. In an interview, he stated that there were three kinds of evil in Randland – DO evil, Mordeth evil and human evil. Rand didn’t need to keep the DO around in order for people to have free will and choice. For example, we know there were criminals during the near utopian AOL, when the DO was unknown.
I’m a little disappointed that nothing was settled. Sure, the world was saved, for now, but the next turn of the wheel will land the world back in the soup. This wasn’t The Last Battle but simply a last battle. I expected a lasting solution. Unless you believe that the three-in-one, triple power seal makes a better prison than the Creator did, a Mieren equivalent of a future age will simply breach it and loose the DO, requiring another last battle. It would have been so easy for Rand to snuff out the DO when he had him in his hand and pulled into the pattern. That would have been more satisfying to me.
There are many unanswered questions but one seems most important to me. Why did the DO need to confront the DR? The DO could have broken free at any time. His minions had the seals and could have crushed them or they could have balefired the pattern into submission. Did the DO simply want to break the spirit of humankind’s representative? Why was that important? Or did the DO need to control or incorporate the DR’s soul in order to use the DR’s newfound Creator like skills? Don’t know.
Those are some of my thoughts tho, I reserve the right to change my mind in the re-read when smarter people hold forth. :)
WOT has been a positive in my life for over 20 years and overall, I’m very happy with BS’s contribution to the series.
It has been awhile since I last posted but I wanted to share a few thoughts. I, too, am grateful to BS for finishing the series in grand style. The fast pace of the last three books, especially AMOL, reminded me more of TEOTW and TDR. He packed in so much action into these 900 pages.
So much to like.
Egwene’s awesomeness in destroying Taim and the Sharan channelers while stabilizing the pattern.
Perrin’s mastery of T’AR and battle with slayer was well done, although a bit drawn out..
The TR led uprising at the Black Tower
Androl Pevara mind meld.
The great captain corruption plot line was unexpected but led very nicely to Mat taking over. I didn’t believe Graendel had the military knowledge to carry it out. Must have been under heavy guidance from Demandred.
Did anyone in fandom figure out that Callandor was intentionally flawed by its makers so that Moridin could be trapped and controlled? That was a surprise to me. Kudos to Min for puzzling it out. Tremendous.
Did Rand become a demi-god, or creator lite at the end? I think I like this but am not sure. Does he retain his positive effect on the land? If so, many will suspect he is still alive. To paraphrase a line from “The Outlaw Josey Wales” – ‘Not a hard man to track, leaves flowering trees wherever he goes.’
No need to highlight empty spaces anymore.
A few things to not like, or just to puzzle over.
I understand that AMOL was not my story to tell but a few things felt out of character for the series. The destination didn’t match the journey.
I’m surprised that the Seanchan and Padan Fain had so little to do. Both were integral parts of the entire series. Padan Fain, especially, was there from the beginning, consistently leveling up in strength and evil intent. He was built up through the series and became more dangerous to Rand than most of the forsaken, even rivaling the DO in his powers. Then he fell off the map. What happened? Why build up a character with significant anti-DO powers if he had little use in the end? Their story lines felt truncated.
The philosophical struggle between Rand and the DO regarding free will and choice seemed sophomoric and unoriginal. More importantly, it didn’t fit in with statements made by RJ. In an interview, he stated that there were three kinds of evil in Randland – DO evil, Mordeth evil and human evil. Rand didn’t need to keep the DO around in order for people to have free will and choice. For example, we know there were criminals during the near utopian AOL, when the DO was unknown.
I’m a little disappointed that nothing was settled. Sure, the world was saved, for now, but the next turn of the wheel will land the world back in the soup. This wasn’t The Last Battle but simply a last battle. I expected a lasting solution. Unless you believe that the three-in-one, triple power seal makes a better prison than the Creator did, a Mieren equivalent of a future age will simply breach it and loose the DO, requiring another last battle. It would have been so easy for Rand to snuff out the DO when he had him in his hand and pulled into the pattern. That would have been more satisfying to me.
There are many unanswered questions but one seems most important to me. Why did the DO need to confront the DR? The DO could have broken free at any time. His minions had the seals and could have crushed them or they could have balefired the pattern into submission. Did the DO simply want to break the spirit of humankind’s representative? Why was that important? Or did the DO need to control or incorporate the DR’s soul in order to use the DR’s newfound Creator like skills? Don’t know.
Those are some of my thoughts tho, I reserve the right to change my mind in the re-read when smarter people hold forth. :)
WOT has been a positive in my life for over 20 years and overall, I’m very happy with BS’s contribution to the series.
@375. Alphaleonis
Syllabus@367
I seem to remember Demandred commenting to, I think, Lan about the oneness/the void and immersing fully into it. Implying that he, Demandred, had mastered the technique and that Lan had something still to learn of it.
@406. martytargaryen
[i]I am however DISTRESSED: [b]I don’t know the color of anyone’s dress in all of Tarmon Gaidon!!”[/b][/i]
Now that’s funny, I don’t care who you are!
@468. Freelancer
“So here’s the $64,000 question: Would you trade a Cour’souvra for and a’dam if those were your only options?”
That one is nearly too close to call but I would take the a’dam.
@491. charles purvis
“Quick questions for the cosmere fans–I was struck by the fact that the term “dreamshards” was used a number of times to describe some sequences in t’a’r, most notably Moridin’s meeting in the prologue, but a couple of other times as well, IIRC. “Shards” is a loaded term in Brandon’s cosmere, and I don’t recall “dreamshards” being used prior to AMoL. Am I right about that, or has it been used before?”
I made a mental note of that when reading and I do not seem to remember that term being used prior to AMoL.
I found myself thinking about making a t-shirt or something saying
You don’t have the Shards
For that
or something to that effect after reading Way of Kings, a pretty good book. I also kept thinking greatshell to myself a lot. Strange new terms that resonated somehow.
One interesting thing: At the conclusion of AMoL, Perrin remains an enormously powerful person. He’s lost his ta’veren nature, but presumably he still has his Wolfbrother skills, including his new-found “Slayer-like” ability to step in and out of T’AR at will.
Fortunately, we know that Perrin is as good-hearted as they come — but he can also be ferocious (as he had to be!) Over the years, he could continue to use his abilities to do what he thought was “right” but gradually become corrupted by the power.
huaixiong @@@@@ 538:
“Gawyn the Rash”, “Weiramon the Puffed” LOL!
We got another reference of a donkey corpse floating down the river.
In the prologue, where the Children of the Light have their metals turned into wax-lie substance, were they part of the last battle? So they were just in an area of bubble of evil?
No other mention of power wrought weapons? Maybe just Perrin’s army having +1 damage swords and spears. No time to make catapult/trebuchet with power invested rocks?
Anyone else think Olver was Gaidal Cain? I thought this for awhile because of how often Mat mentioned that he was ‘ugly’, and I felt like it was confirmed when Birgitte said should would only be a few years younger than Gaidal upon her rebirth.
I wasn’t surprised by Gawyn dying, I knew the moment he put on the BloodKnife ring he was a goner. Egwene dying was a shock to me though. I never imagined one of the original Two Rivers folk dying.
I was also disappointed with the Padan Fain treatment. I thought maybe I missed him getting killed earlier or something, but 2 pages to wrap up a villian more dangerous than any of the Choosen?
I had a feeling, since we learned that Rand and Moridin were interconnected that Rand’s body would die, and that his consciousness would live on in Moridins body. When I read the last scene I felt like it was wierd that Moridin carried Rand out of the pit, but I guess his sould didn’t move until he died.
Bela. Why did they have to kill Bela.
bcz24 @554 – Gaidal Cain was last seen in T’A’R in chapter 52 of TSR. He was reported missing as recently as chapter 14 of TFoH (reference
http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/)… If I remember correctly, book 4/book 5 was basically Spring/Summer of the secnd year of the series…in fact, The Entire Series lasts less than 2 and a half years; So at the very oldest, Gaidal Cain can be no more than 1 and a half years old by the time the Last Battle occurs.
All that said, folks who have been involved in online WoT fandom have known for a long time that RJ himself debunked the idea that O=GC.
By the way, you are not alone in this. I’ve seen this question asked several time on the handful of threads related to AMoL this past week and a half….but the theory is both impossible logistically and officially killed.
Huaixiong @@@@@538 – Some excellent reminders re: the limitations of Travelling. Not nearly everyone is strong enough – that’s been made very clear over the course of the books. Even in the prologue, the reason Elayne didn’t find out about the Caemlyn attack sooner was that it took four of the Kin to open a gateway; all it took to prevent the call for help was for a Darkfriend to kill one of them. We don’t have any valid percentages of AS or AM who could/couldn’t Travel (assuming they knew the weave), but we do know that strength in the power is more nearly asymptotic than bell-curved. Deathgates were a really cool weave, but not many of the Asha’man would have the strength for that, I think. The need to know the ground is another key – as you say, even with the tricks to learn the ground quickly, that need makes you a stationery target.
Isilel @@@@@540 – How is the bond still in place? I’m betting not even Team Jordan would answer that definitively. However, even though the bonding scene has definite physical aspects to it, I’ve always understood the bond itself to be far more than a physical/physiological connection. In fact, I would have said that it was more a matter of the mind than of the body all along. So if the minds (and souls) switch bodies, why on earth would the bond stay with the body instead of the mind? The more I think about it, the more logical it seems that the link to Rand’s mind would remain intact, rather than any physical element of the bond.
Re: Perrin and not losing Faile, the thing that always comes back to my mind in discussions of the Perrin/Faile/Shaido arc is Alan Romanczuk’s comment, when asked about his favorite scene in the (published) books:
I can’t help thinking of his action in the Pit. In spite of massive compulsion, he was able to 1) remember his love for Faile, 2) hold on to his own mind and 3) snap a woman’s neck with his bare hands. Is that what Alan was thinking of? Perrin needed to get to that point, or Lanfear could have taken everything down.
I’m not one who complained much about that particular plot line anyway, so maybe that’s easy for me to say. I don’t think Perrin would have agreed that there were no negative consequences to his decision, though. Yes, it all worked out… okay in the end, and not too many people died (or not ones we knew, anyway), but he was truly torn about his decision to ignore Rand and focus on saving Faile. He had, in one sense, sidestepped fate that time – the world didn’t end because he cared more about saving his wife – but he knew he had risked it. And he knew, partly because of that entire arc, that he couldn’t take that risk again. Coming out the other side, he started to realize just what he had risked – and one could say that it’s a good thing he made the wrong decision when it didn’t matter so much. This time around, he knew what was on the line, and he was able to choose the path where his wife was in danger and on her own, because that was needed for the sake of the whole world.
As far as people losing spouses in the Last Battle – how many of the major characters had spouses/lovers to risk? Mat/Tuon and Perrin/Faile are the only ones who survived who weren’t bonded to their partners; those who were bonded, logically, either both lived or both died. But this is not an area we’re ever likely to agree on; I don’t feel any real need for a large percentage of major characters to die in order to be realistic. It’s a fantasy. And I don’t read GRRM, either.
@@@@@ many re: Channelers – The Wise Ones and Windfinders were doing their bit at Shayol Ghul, and paid the price. The Wise Ones were fighting the redveils – and let’s not forget that not nearly all the Wise Ones can channel, so “thousands” is a dramatic overstatement. The Windfinders were rotating in and out of the circle using the Bowl to control the weather and make the lightning kill Trollocs & redveils instead of Team Light. I don’t remember if they had added men to expand the circle or not; there wasn’t a lot of text addressing their efforts specifically. It was clear, though, that they were expending all their strength in the task. We don’t know how many channelers they actually had.
The Asha’man were split by Taim, so we saw them on both sides, primarily on the Malkieri front and the FoM battle. As for their numbers, the last count I can find readily is about 500, and Logain thought most would be loyal to Taim. I don’t recall that we have a firm count of how many had actually reached full Asha’man, but the count would be skewed anyway; Taim was only promoting those who were his.
The Aes Sedai (except those who were taking care of the Healing) were focused on the Saldaean front, and lost a full third of their number when Demandred showed up with the Ayyad; of the remainder, many were in shock over the death of their Warders. Those who survived (about 250, exhausted) went to the FoM and lost even more against Demandred and the Ayyad there.
Most of the Kin who survived Caemlyn, the Novices and most of the Accepted went to Mayene to work with the Healers. Let’s not forget that most of the Kin were too weak to even reach Accepted, much less Aes Sedai status, and few of the novices would have been anywhere near their full potential yet. Sorry, but I can’t see any real value in putting those women out on the battlefield to serve as very large, bulky and vulnerable power packs. I stand by my statement that they were far more useful as power packs for the Healers, who were nearing exhaustion even with their help. There may have been some percentage – particularly the older women – who could have handled themselves well on the field, but who makes that decision? Particularly given the ingrained (and generally well-founded) WT attitude toward novices needing to be protected from themselves as much as from any outside threat, I don’t see any valid in-story rationale for sending them into battle.
Marks @@@@@541 – The sword Rand gave Tam was the “real-world” (i.e. non-Tel’Aran’Rhiod) Justice – the physical sword Hawkwing had carried when he lived.
Kah-Thurak @@@@@544 – It’s hardly “cheating” when the same choices are available to everyone. Marketing decisions have a lot of factors, and in this case, the person who holds the copyright exercised her right to decide how she wanted to do it. She may have traded profit for ratings, if people really are mad enough to decide not to buy it at all, or pirate it instead of waiting, but it was her decision to make. People don’t have to like it, and I do feel sorry for those few who truly don’t have any other options, but I have no sympathy at all for those who make a big deal just because they can’t get their instant gratification the way they want it.
Sanctume @@@@@553 – that was Jarid Sarand’s troops, not the Whitecloaks. And yes, it was just a bubble, and only affected the metal in that area. The rest of the world was fine. (For a certain definition of fine, anyway.)
@@@@@ 554 & 555 – Gaidal was last seen in TAR about 11 months ago.
Hoping @@@@@548 – You’re the first person here to even touch on the one thing that really, really bothered me about the book: “In an interview, {RJ} stated that there were three kinds of evil in Randland – DO evil, Mordeth evil and human evil. Rand didn’t need to keep the DO around in order for people to have free will and choice.” I may, at some point, expand on this and why it bothers me, but for now I’ll just say that this one thing nearly ruined the series for me. A Force of Evil, a Personification of Evil, a main Evil Being – free or imprisoned – this is not required for free will. Not even in Randland.
Couple random thoughts. I was pretty upset we spent so much time on Androl and Pevara getting to know them and learning about all the awesome stuff they could do just to not have it mean something pivotal in the last battle. I mean, yes, Androl did some cool gateway stuff, but linked they could do so much more. Especially with their mind reading abilities. It would have been cool to see them accomplish something with their double bond that no one else could have possibly done alone or even in a circle. As far as what happens to them in the future, if Cadsuane is just an interim Amyrlin, instead of Logain as the next real Amyrlin as one commenter said, I vote Androl and Pevara jointly as the new Amyrlin. How badass would that be?
Also, given Androl, I would have loved to see Morgase discover that she had one super strong talent and somehow use it to save Tallanvor or create some other small victory in the Last Battle.
I think more should have been done with Nynaeve. She played a huge role throughout the series so her absence from the BS books was glaring.
Also I agree the ball was dropped with Moiraine. So much wasted potential. And it’s not even that her part wasn’t very big, it’s that it wasn’t very meaningful. She didn’t do anything that only Moiraine could do.
Padan Fain. So he entered the Blight one or two books ago, right? And since nothing there could slow Fain down or kill him, how is he not already at Shayol Ghul when Rand gets there? What was he doing the whole time? I say it would have been awesome to peek in on Fain all during the last battle to see him being distracted from going after Rand by having come across The Town and in his hatred for the DO going berserker on everything in it. A little evil vs. evil last battle. And then by the time he kills the last darkfriend/shadowspawn/etc. and starts misting out (possibly making The Town Shayol Ghul 2.0?) Rand is already done and stumbling out of the pit.
All in all it’s clear that Jordan wrote for people to happen while events occurred around them, and Sanderson writes for events to happen and people to occur within them. You’ve got to write what you know and Sanderson knows worlds and magic systems, and can write a damn good fight scene, but he doesn’t do so well with people. Thus no emotional payoff with the return of Moiraine, no reaction from anyone once the last battle was over to any of the losses, and as one commenter said, we have no idea what anyone was wearing J Also let’s not forget how off Mat was in the first book, how Sanderson seems to have no grasp of the art of cussing (although Elayne’s “Light burn that” was brilliant), and how Sanderson seemed to have no idea how to write any of the women, really, so he just didn’t. (Yes there was a lot of Egwene, but she was off, too. Losing her cool with Tuon after she spent all that time with the hall learning how to be the craftiest diplomat ever? She should have outsmarted Tuon and tricked her into agreeing before she even knew what hit her. Righteous browbeating is Nynaeve’s territory.)
All that is just what I found to be missing from the last book, but what was there was really quite amazing (especially Graendal and the four generals) and an impressive finish to what is arguably the greatest epic fantasy series of all time.
Wetlandernw,
I agree with all you say for the most part, even about how many Wise One channelers were at the Last Battle. But, to say there aren’t thousands of Wise one Channelers is, I believe, wrong. If the Shado had 3-400 wise one channelers in Malden (as had been estimated), then it is logical to assume that all of the other 11 clans had wround the same number. 11 clans times 3-400 is anywhere from 3300-4400 wise one channelers. Now, most of the wise ones stayed in the waste to support the clans that were left ( I also assume), and am sure that they are aligned like most of the channelers, eg. a few at the strongest, but most at the middling and lower levels of power. Now surely some of them left the waste to help at the Last Battle, so there should have been more of them(by the story). But If the light side had overwhelming Channeling force, there wouldnt have been much of a last battle, so I get the need for some of them to not be there. For that matter, since we never hear about any place besides where we are, there is nothing to say that trolloc hoards weren’t ravaging through the wastes or something equally far fetched. just not enough room to include it all (not that I would have minded having another book or two to hear it all)
Whoops, not Shayol Ghul 2.0, Shadar Logoth 2.0
Tanchicoan@557: I think you hit the nail on the head here…..
All in all it’s clear that Jordan wrote for people to happen while events occurred around them, and Sanderson writes for events to happen and people to occur within them. You’ve got to write what you know and Sanderson knows worlds and magic systems, and can write a damn good fight scene, but he doesn’t do so well with people.
That said, I’m so glad this series was finished and done well! I really do think Brandon did an incredible job….the whole team did. It was an incredible undertaking. And I am amazed that we actually got to know the ending. I thank you ALL!
Wetlander: As usual, you have reasoned out where all the channelers were very logically and no doubt, correctly. I just found all of that missing IN the books. While I thoroughly enjoyed reading the battles, I found them very disjointed and confusing….but then, perhaps that is as battles truly are.
Reading all these comments has been almost as exhausting as reading “The Last Battle” straight through.
I only have a few things to add.
1) Regarding Egwene being out of character with Tuon, I don’t think that’s true. She has done a marvelous job of keep herself calm, cool, collected and calculated in almost every situation. However, because of her experiences with the a’dam, the Seanchan still bother her deeply. We’ve seen this in her dreams, her reaction to a Seanchan saving her, and pretty much any situation where they are involved. I don’t find it out of character for her to get a bit snippy with Tuon considering all that.
2) I initially took the ending, with Rand and the pipe, to mean he’s been imbued with some creatorish powers, shaping the pattern at will, an evolution of his ta’vereness if you will. But then I started to wonder if maybe that’s not it at all. Perhaps the Rand we see at the end, in fact the entire Epilogue, is not taking place in the “real” world, but rather a dreamshard, TAR, or even one of those possible worlds we saw in the portal stones. Maybe Rand won and died or his soul/essense were transported to someplace outside the real world, or maybe he didn’t. Perhaps we’re seeing him in TAR after his death, or even trapped in an alternate reality by the DO, kind of like a Matrix type situation?
I doubt that was Jordan’s intent and likely we are seeing the real after the battle. But, the pipe lighting thing…that makes me wonder.
Hoping@548:
Rand’s sealing is perfect, it is where Egwene shored up the unravelling Pattern at the Fields of Merrilor that the new “thinness” will be eventually located. When she did something similar in T’AR during her last meeting with the Wise Ones, she noted that it wasn’t as good as new, but would suffice to keep things together.
Wetlandernw @556:
I just have to respectfully disagree with Alan Romanczyk. IMHO, after Dumai’s Wells when he was returning to Cahirien and obsessing over Faile, Perrin was already very much in that place.
To me, the PLOD was very much a needless and charmless repetition of issues that Perrin went through brilliantly in TSR and Rand and Mat went through as well, in their development as leaders of men. Except in their cases there was actually a point to it, while in Perrin’s it was all just make-work and treading water.
And personally, I dropped the WoT series over the triumvirat of bloat that were PLOD, Andoran succession and Mat’s glacial escape from Ebu Dar, which featured yet another re-use of already exhausted assets. And I know for a fact that I am far from alone in this. Only Leigh’s re-read and a promise of speedy conclusion brought me back.
And retroactively, this stuff is neither more bearable nor better, particularly since it clearly cost us Moiraine’s plot-line, as I have feared all this time. It should have been replaced with something else, at least in Perrin’s case, or been conveyed much more succintly.
RJ actually made both Perrin and Elayne regress to prolongue their struggles… and increase page-count of their sections. Argh!
Just because both of them where actually pretty close to where they needed to be for TG while other main characters had yet a ways to go, there was no need to send them on extended detours. Just have less of them.
Anyway.
Galad and Berelein too. Also, why would bonded “logically” die together? AS are supposed to be able to survive their Warders, even those to whom they are married. In the earlier books it was hard for an AS, yes, but it didn’t incapacitate her or make her suicidal.
Eldrene and Aemon was supposed to be something out of this world… and she was also covering the escape of her people.
Re: Novices and Accepted – AS attitudes about them have been repeatedly shown as completely wrong-headed. Most Asha’man have been in training less than them and were doing swimmingly. WO apprentices aren’t “coddled” in that manner either.
And I would have thought that when the fate of all humanity is at stake, this prejudice would have been overcome. Most soldiers on the field weren’t pros either.
The Kin may have been weak, on the whole, but some of them were very skilled even compared to the AS and/or had interesting Talents, like the one with superior shielding. Could have come in handy, I say. Androl was certainly useful.
And, as Samadai @558 mentioned, there should have been several thousands of channeling WOs. There is no reason why those staying in the Waste wouldn’t have been mostly non-channelers. Shaido also had non-channeling WOs, whom Sevanna sent off with other septs, after all.
Windfinders should have been in high hundreds as well.
They were all left out not because it made sense, but so that they wouldn’t upstage regular troops and make them completely irrelevant. Which I can live with.
I have no clue how RJ intended to deal with overabundance of channelers and inflation of their power-levels. It will forever remain a mystery, alas.
But this omission made as little sense as the White Tower not producing tons of cuendillar armor/shields in the time between re-unification and Fields of Merillor. If Leane by herself could turn half of a massive chain into cuendillar within minutes, imagine how much she and Bode could have produced with strong circles and sa’angreal! And it isn’t like the AS didn’t know that they would be facing balefire…
Yeah, not using the Accepted and novices in battle didn’t make any sense. Especially the former, who have been trained for a decade on average. Healing is important, but blasting off the trollocs before they can injure people is clearly much more important. Besides, we’ve been beaten over the head that:
1)most channellers are pretty bad at Healing
2)it’s a very complicated weave and process. Throwing fireballs and lightning is much easier.
3)Strength in the Power matters less in Healing than on the battlefield – for example Samitsu was considered the best Healer of the White Tower maybe ever and she’s not that strong.
So for me the obvious best course of action was to use most Accepted and novices in combat.
Just a random thought, while I was waiting for this last book to come out I started re-reading “The Belgariad” by David Eddings, published in 1981 or so, how similar the two stories are. Of course, Robert Jordan’s was extremely detailed and slow moving, but it was weird how many similarities there are:
Main character (Garion) is raised by single parent figure, who isn’t actually their parent. Tam/Polgara
Garion, sees a dark figure watching him early on who’s cloak doesn’t move and suddenly disappears. Fade/Asharak
Old man who tells stories comes into town/farm who is more than he seems. Thom/Old Wolf
New person comes into the farm who is watching them Padin Fain/Brill.
Have to leave the farm suddenly with a blacksmith. Perrin/Durnik
Garion hears a voice in his head that he talks to. Rand hears a voice that he can converse with.
One of the companions in the book talks to horses. Perrin to Wolves/Hettar to Horses.
A type of complusion used in the book. Asharak to Garion.
Garion uses his power to save himself and companions. Rand at end of EOTW.
Secret hand talk. Aiel/Silk
I’m sure there is more, but I am not done with the re-read, but that is kind of funny.
@548 (and) 556:
You both touched on something that was immediately apparent to me as well, and I have been trying to puzzle it out since I finished the book on Monday.
When Jordan had originally mentioned that there were three kinds of evil, that statement alone made me love the series more. However, to have the entire idea effectively dropped is a very major let down and my only complaint with the series/aMoL. I thank you both for raising this. I have been lurking on numerous message boards and haven’t seen this being reflected upon yet. I await your essay.
BTW I have no idea what to do with myself now. What are other books/series you might recommend?
DJ_Pon3 @561
It was meant to.
Yea, but evil of Shadar Logoth happened _in response_ to the DO. He was still the cause.
Also, it never made sense to me that “human evil” would take the form of a killing, soul-stealing mist. I always felt that there had to be more to it, maybe some involvement of the Finn or something.
Oh, and now something completely different:
Now that we know that Moghedien ordered the attack at the Algarin Manor – she was an expert at imitating other Foresaken, after all, including males, and the order was given by fake Sammael, can we also assume that she appeared as a shining figure of Rand to Masema and steered his madness? Would the timing work?
Oh my. Just finished reading it. I have seldom, possibly never, read any novel that have had such a caleidoscope of emotional impact upon little ol’ me. My heart, she aches and weeps. And cheers and laughs.
Spontaneous comments that sprung to my mind during reading includes:
Mat and Tuon: Ok, they are both nuts. I mean, totally nuts. As in crazy. REALLY crazy. And yet, somehow, in their lunacy, they not only function epically in their separate ehm… jobs? but also, they are fraking adorable together. Also, insane. I mean, really? Sex. Nude. Outdoors. On the grass. In the public palace gardens. With bodyguards within sight and earshot. I’m not prude, but whoa.
Speaking of adorable, Androl and Pevara. I mean, really? A MUTUAL sedai/warden bond, that was done without either’s consent, and they fall in love and are cuuuute. I’m conflicted. And heartwarmed. And confused. But still… cuuuute.
Dragons. Tens of thousands of trollocs blown to small pieces in a matter of seconds. I knew the dragons were powerful, but OMFG.
Evin. And Toveine. That made me need a hug because eep, the whole Black Tower thing is decidedly unpleasant.
Sarene, and then Rhuarc. Hate Graendal. Hate her. Hate hate. Seriously, I’ve never considered how totally horrifying Compulsion is, until it happend to characters I knew.
“That’s why I still carry a bow, you bloody son of a goat.” Badass comment when killing a bad person. Me like! You go, Jonneth!
Also: “That is the best you can do when trying to kill?” NO, I CAN OPEN TWO PORTALS AND KILL A DOZEN DREADLORDS WITH THEIR OWN FIRE AND LIGHTNING AND KILL A DOZEN MORE LETTING THEM DROP TO THEIR DEATHS THROUGH A THIRD PORTAL, ALL WITHIN TWO SECONDS AND WHILE AT THE SAME TIME FREEING AND MOVING LOGAIN, AND THAT’S JUST FOR STARTERS, ASSHOLE.
“I thought that I’d taught you to run.” Ok, that was also a pretty badass comment, given to the man that is balefiring everything around you.
Gawyn! Nooo!
Not Siuan!!!!
Birgitte.. *cry*
Egwene…. my heart is broken now. I can’t get over it.
From that point on, I actually shouted when certain things happened.
Lan impaling himself on Demandred’s sword: Hasta la vista, baby.
Talmanes one-shotting the entire Sharan leadership: “Yippee-ki-yay, mother******!”
Graendal losing the fight with Aviendha: “Karma is a bitch, bitch!”
Grady opening the portal to Hinderstap: “Say hello to my little friends.”
Moghedien’s fate: “Welcome to slavery.”
Mat overpowering Fain: “Sucks to be you, buddy.”
Despite loving the book, I miss one thing. There are six persons whose fates I’d like to know more about.
Liandrin. I had so hoped to see Liandrin die. She was one of the villians I hated the most. However, it’s hinted at that Suroth’s Darkfriend status was eventually discovered, so maybe Suroth implicated her and she was tortured to death or something equally unpleasant. Or maybe the Shadow killed her to protect Suroth and/or other Darkfriends from exposure. After the Seanchan started capturing Aes Sedai, there was always the chance of a damane knowing about Liandrin being Black Ajah.
Shiaine. As far as villains go, she was very interesting. She actually commanded dreadlords, despite not being able to channel. That puts her high in the command structure. I had hoped there would be some sort of showdown, maybe her trying to assassinate Mat, since Elayne was already called for. Oh well. Maybe she just died and was left by the roadside. Or eaten by trollocs.
Dyelin. Elayne’s #1 supporter, and one of my favourite characters. I had hoped for some notion about her fate. That, of course, go for all the Heads of the Major Houses. We don’t even know who, if any, went with the army. That’s a bit sad since they are vital parts of the story in at least three books.
Caraline Damodred. I mean, she has been a bit on the sideline since book seven, but in that book, is she awesome or what? She is the leader of the rebellion against the Dragon Reborn, runs into him in the middle of HER OWN PERSONAL ARMY, and hides his identity from everyone else to protect his life. Also, when Darlin is carrying Rand through the Mists Of Eating People And Large Mammals, she pulls a knife and in dead seriousness wows to protect him. A knife. Against the Mists Of EPALM. If that isn’t love, what is? Besides Moiraine, Dobraine and Talmanes, she is the most awesome Cairhien noble we’ve seen.
Speaking of Dobraine. Hello? He is the Lord Dragon’s Steward in Cairhien. Also, one of the most powerful nobles in the land. Shouldn’t he be present at Elayne’s coronation? Not to mention being part of her army?
Joline. I like Joline, she has spunk. Instead of just sniffing, ignoring and/or being aloof, as 99.9% of the AS would have done if they had been forced to obey Mat Cauthon, she confronts. I like that. She and Mat are probably more alike than they realize. She is like a female Mat. With political power. That can channel. No wonder Elaida couldn’t stand her. :-)
.
In short, this books, depsite a few things I missed, was about all I could hope for as a WOT ending. I especially loved that so many characters on the Light Side, despite having had Crowning Moments of Awesome in previous books, outshone themselves this time. There were at least twenty heroes doing awesome things in this book, each one outperforming everything he/she had done in the other 13 books. Oh and the Sharan entrance in the story? Epic.
Also, did any keep track on how many important Aes Sedai that dies in this book? There can’t be more than a handful that are confirmed alive by now. Nynaeve, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Saerin, Yukiri, Pevara and Gabrelle are the only ones I can recall, with Leane, Silviana, Teslyn, Corele and Merise as a “probably” (Flinn and Narishima, Corele’s and Merise’s warders, seem ok at the end of the book, suggesting that their Sisters live), Myrelle as a “maybe” and Lelaine and Adelorna as a “probably not” (they weren’t there with the others to prod Cadsuane at the end.) Siuan dies, and Toveine, and Tarna, and Romanda, and Javindhra, and Sarene, and Kiruna and… more than I could keep track of. And that’s not even counting the REAL BA that gets snuffed in this book. At least two of the 13 dies on screen. (Good throw, Thom, btw. Too bad it wasn’t Liandrin. But Jeaine was also an evil bitch that deperatetly needed to die, so all is good.) Are all 13 (except Liandrin, who’s fate is unknown, confimed dead by now, btw? A number of them died in Caemlyn, and some in the White Tower, and a few in earlier books. Does anyone have a list?
Cecero @565
No essay from me. I’ve shot my wad.
Waiting to see if the gurus have anything to say.
so… question of the day for me is….
why doesn’t Rand feel the effects of burning out/stilling?
More thoughts. Mat really came into his own, battle wise, didn’t he? I spent the first part of the book wondering why he wasn’t leading the Last Battle, but it actually made sense. Who actually knows about his head full of memories? Moiraine? Birgitte? And suspicions from Lan and Rand, if I remember correctly – not near enough to get him put in charge of a multi-nation defence, even if he was anywhere near Merrilor at the time. Using the four Great Captains to fight the four main battles makes sense, even if they aren’t actually the *Last* Battle, ifyouknowwhatImean. I did like seeing his inventiveness playing out on a large stage, though, with artillery-gateways and Galad-baiting and shock Hinderstap berserk troops (I hope the new Age let those guys out of their loop, one way or the other). Perrin’s chapters mostly seemed to be another few thousand words of ‘Perrin fails to kills Slayer in the wolf dream again’, which was starting to get very repetitive. I did like his no nonsense attitude to Lanfear, and that his love for Faile was actually his strength, not his downfall, in the end.
Logain. Not *quite* as heroic as I had expected – I hope he has Nynaeve have a good look at his noodle before he starts making any other plans, cos he seemed to be PTSD city by the end. Actually, that makes Cadsuane as his counterpart to be quite a smart move, as she’d probably work well with him.
Something else that’s been niggling at me – how many channellers are there left in the White and Black Towers by the end of this, anyway? I wasn’t counting throughout, but I got the impression that between the battles themselves, the forced Turnings and Black Ajah defections, there weren’t too many of either left. The Blue, Green, White, Red and Gray were mentioned as working in units at various points, probably taking the brunt of the fighting, and the Yellows were running the hospital, but there wasn’t much mention of the Brown. Does this mean that the surviving White Tower is heavily weighted Yellow and Brown? IIRC, there were also maybe a couple of hundred Accepted and the thousand novices working in the hospital, and there had been a comment back at the reunification of the Tower that many of the novices were ready to be raised to Accepted the first minute possible, which had presumably happened before the Last Battle. I can see the reasons for fingering Cadsuane for the next Amyrlin – she’s adaptable, practical and would be a pretty pragmatic leader, which would be very useful characteristics for someone in charge of radical overhaul and rebuilding.
And to the people saying that Moiraine and Nynaeve did hardly anything in this book, it was their saidar that Rand wove in the Pit of Doom to close the Dark One’s prison back up! That’s hardly nothing!
A thought on releasing damane like Suffa and Moghedien – iirc, the agreement was that any damane who wanted to would be let go. Given that the first step in damane training is to break her independent will, it’s hardly likely that many would ask to be freed. It depends on when or if this is actually acted on, but Moggy was only collared at the end of the last battle, so she’d be right back out in those circumstances. Not sure if Suffa was far enough along to still want to escape.
Valmar@520 I don’t know, 300 years worth of it might be a bit of an ask, even for the Ooh Ooh Girl. I was thinking of the narrative arc of Egwene’s character and all the conversations with Siuan about the great Amyrlins of the past and their notable deeds. I don’t doubt that Egwene would have preferred to live (who wouldn’t? particularly when newly married!), but there is a certain symmetry in one always modelling herself off the great Amyrlins becoming arguably the greatest and most legendary of them all.
Wetlandernw@529 On the Accepted and novices in Mayene, Berelain’s POV really gives a good insight into the sheer *volume* of casualties that the hospital was treating – they had people stashed just about everywhere in the palace, including the kitchens, and we’ve repeatedly seen how tiring Healing is, so using the Accepted and novices as ‘batteries’ for the Yellow Ajah makes sense, considering there was, what a hundred or so Yellows left after the purge? I can’t remember hearing much about the Kinswomen, but they were organising as specialists in Travelling and Healing, which would have been perfect for ambulance duty.
Stromgard @569 – I’ve been keeping a list of BA, but I’m still in the process of updating it for AMoL. As far as Liandrin’s original 13, though, I can give you a quick run-down. Just give me a few minutes.
Man, this thread is getting as epic as the book itself…
Wetlandernw@556 On the Windfinders working the Bowl of Winds at Thakandar, my memory may be wrong, but they kept that circle going for several days, I think, rotating members in and out. Based on a circle of 13 women like the one they used to fix the weather, they could easily use every single available Windfinder to keep it going on a pretty much indefinite basis.
You’ve got a better grasp of the numbers of Aes Sedai left than I do – there could be as few as 50 left, then, outside of the Yellow and whatever Browns weren’t on the battlefield. Say 150ish altogether? They would want to start promoting that bottleneck of novices quick, cos I suspect that there would hardly be enough AS left for teaching, let alone more Ajah-specific duties. Yeesh, Cadsuane’s going to have fun the next few years *evil grin*
Stromgard – here you go:
Amico Nagoyin – killed by Slayer in TSR
Asne Zeramene – killed by Windfinders in KoD
Berylla Naron – Last seen taking orders from Moghedien in Amador. (TFoH)
Chesmal Emry – killed by Elayne in ToM
Eldrith Jhondar – killed by Hanlon in ToM
Falion Bhoda – killed by Aviendha in AMoL
Ispan Shefar – killed by Careane Fransi in TPoD
Jeaine Caide – killed by Thom Merrilin in AMoL
Joiya Byir – killed by Slayer in TSR
Liandrin – Last seen as da’covale to Suroth with knotted shield. (KoD)
Marillin Gemalphin – Last seen escaping Caemlyn dungeon. (ToM)
Rianna Andomeran – captured by Ogier in AMoL
Temaile Kinderode – killed by Hanlon in ToM
@@@@@ 570
Daaaang :)
Cecero – As this is very much a matter of personal opinion/belief, I can’t claim to be a guru; however, I will definitely write up something on the subject. I finished the book a week ago tonight, and was so thrown off by that particular bit of rationale that I couldn’t get on the group discussion for a couple of days. Still haven’t, properly – all I’ve done here is refute silliness, point out alternate possibilities and provide data.
@556 Wetlandernw
I must have missed somewhere the reference in the book to Tam getting Hawkwing’s sword. The reference at p 307 isn’t specific, and mentions dragons on the scabbard – which is more LTTish than Hawkwingish (one would have expected ravens on Justice’s scabbard surely).
So do you have the reference in the book (or previous books) that confirms it is Hawkwing’s sword that Tam gets?
Giving Tam LTT’s sword makes more sense in fact, because of the ‘Tam gives son sword, and Tam gets son’s sword in return’ symbolism.
Another theory I had, could the capture of Moghedien be the first step to Avi’s terrible future vision? Avi saw the Seanchan with shock lances, and nothing was ever described like that with the current Seanchan… Maybe because of Egwene’s bargain somehow Mog rises to some position of power after being a damane?
Isilel @@@@@ 562:
While you do have a reasonable point overall, in this comment you’re assuming more power would make the progress go faster. But from the description in CoT, the weave requires “little more power [than making three balls of fire]”, and “There isn’t much skill involved… All that’s needed to do is set the weave and wait.” From those descriptions, it’s easily possible that the only thing that determines the speed of the transformation is the degree of the channeler’s Talent for cuendillar-making. In that case, while they definitely could have made some by the Last Battle, it’s not clear they would have been able to make anywhere near enough to make a significant difference.
@577 – Thanks!
Marks @578 – The sword with dragons on the scabbard is the one that first showed up in TGS Chapter 1, where Rand thinks about recognizing it from his own memories, rather than Lews Therin’s. That’s our first clue – he recognizes it from meeting the Heroes (specifically Hawkwing) in TGH. This is confirmed when he goes to meet Tuon at Falme, and the sword reminds him of his previous adventure there. Brandon also confirmed publicly that the sword was seen in TGH.
Apparently its identity was also confirmed in a private email between some fan and either Maria or Brandon, but that’s a “take my word for it” report. FWIW, that sword is also Brandon’s “cameo” in the series, as the library ter’angreal was RJ’s; it’s the sword Brandon was given from James Rigney’s collection.
@@@@@ several above: Lan & Nynaeve also survived.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
AndrewB – Lan and Nynaeve are bonded.
Isilel – Under “normal” circumstances, an Aes Sedai can certainly survive her Warder’s death, though the reverse is less true. These are not normal circumstances; there is no time to grieve, and not much time to be in shock. You’re needed too badly. In this situation, the most probable reaction would be much like Egwene’s: I’m going out, and I’m going to take out as many of the other guys as I can in the process.
Hi all, thought I’d add my two cents.
Unlike many here, I’ve only discovered WoT recently, and have been reading the series for 2.3 months, rather than 23 years. Still, despite the short time, the characters and the world really grew on me. In fact, I think it lucky that I started reading the series just in time to finish book 13 when AMoL came out and read the story in one setting, without the delays.
So, first things first: A Big Thank You to Team Jordan for the series!
Onto the main part: most posts above reflect what I thought about the series as a whole, and the last book in particular, so instead of adding more of the same, I wanted to have a “brief” look at the Forsaken, which were quite a fascinating lot to me and, whether, like some of the readers above indicated, they were rather inept at playing for Team Bad.
Ishamael: for 3000+ thousand years, he was thought to be the Dark One, actively participated in destroying continent-wide peace pacts, and then during the last two years of Age 3, Naeblis he was, keeping the other Foresaken in line. He battled it out in the Cave of Doom, and, ultimately, fell for a sa’angreal trick. Also, by my count, he was thought to have been killed off at least 3 times (books 1,3 and 14, plus there was that incident at Falme, where Rand thought him dead, again) – that takes some doing, though means a couple of failures on his half. Still, he did get his wish – this particular iteration of Elan’s soul got to rest in peace. Thus – he did a pretty good job overall, I think.
Graendal: wreaked havoc in Arad Doman, played that neat trick with Compulson on the Great Captains – one of the most elegant plans by the Shadow, I think, and ultimately got downed by chance – the unwoven Gateway could’ve done any number of things. Let’s also not forget that she took out Asmodean (gone over to Light) and Balthamel (in retirement through failure at that time) – smart, tricky, and takes care of competition. She is the only Foresaken to kill off another Foresaken during the 3rd Age, and not only that, but those not actively in use by the Shadow either. Downed by chance, otherwise she was doing pretty well too.
Demandred: yeah, he took over an entire continent, pretty much, lead the forces of Shadow into battle, and apart from a minor obsession with his once friend, showed a lot of admirable and fearsome qualities in many departments. Had a case of Lan-underestimation, which is not something to be too ashamed of, considering the grand scheme of Lan-deeds. Pretty much kept doing his job, without getting distracted by other Foresaken, almost crashed the forces of Light. Good job, I say.
Semirhage: true, she died, but… Seanchan is still in chaos after the Last Battle. The Sharans might be confused by Bao, but Seanchan is bloody and war-torn. Plus, she almos had Rand – had it not been for Cadsuane’s ter’angreal (and what were the chances of her encountering one that sees through the Mirror of Mists?), she might’ve captured him. Furthermore, the way I see it, she pretty much got played by the Dark One, pushing Rand into using the True Power and into that “be-cuendillar” mode of his, which almost had the world ended. Impressive, I say.
Mesaana: a borderline case between Rahvin/Sammael power-grabbing, and working for the Shadow. Pretty much until Egwene turned up and the Seanchean attacked, she did a good job of weakening the White Tower and ensuring that it will not present a unified front at the Last Battle. Then failed. But, like with several other Forsaken, it was a bad coincidence that took her out – Perrin brining a dreamspike from an unrelated fight. Had it not been for that, she might’ve taken out Team Egwene. At least, a consistent strategy there.
Be’lal: I think this is the one Foresaken we learn least about. He is a cut above Rahvin & Sammael, in that although he went for a local power grab, it was in the Callandor-land, and he had a trap set for Rand, which might’ve worked, had not Moirane somehow knew of balefire – a high improbability in 3rd Age. I call “death by accident” on this one. Murky intensions there – read the confrontation in book 3 – he certainly tries to kill Rand and mentions teaching the captive women to serve the Shadow. So, he did give it a good, albeit very short try.
Rahvin/Sammael: those two are lumped together, as they pretty much went for a local power grab and stayed there. The lands didn’t suffer, sure, a queen got embarrassed, and a king kidnapped, but they didn’t much hinder Rand in his taking of Cairhien and left two ripe lands ready for the taken by Light (Andor & Illian – two of the most powerful lands by end of Age 3, no?). Sure, they tried killing Rand, but failed, and didn’t do well as ambassadors of Shadow, methinks.
Mogheiden: uhuh. Sure got captured a lot, this one did. Like Asmodean, she divulged secrets to the Light, got help in escaping, then got caught again. Did cause some trouble early on in T’a’R, but is pretty much useless elsewhere – fails to kill Nynaeve (worse, that helps Nynaeve to lift the block!), stays back during the cleansing of saidin, plays the role of humble messenger to Graendal, and becomes a spy-ultimately-uncovered during the Last Battle. She does have one redeeming feature for her, though – she survived. Unlike any of the other Forsaken, with brain intact (Mesaana’s brain is addled, so is Graendal’s). Thus, a small personal victory, but a failure for the Shadow overall.
Aginor: 3rd age for him, I think, was a failure. Get killed by Rand straight off the bat. Then follow Rand around as a spy, fail in a plot to kill him, get uncovered, then get killed by a Darkfriend (who thought him a nobody). Yeah. Still, you have to give it to him: in Age Two he did create all those nasty creatures, and they’re a big part of many events, not least starting Rand on his journey, representing most of the Shadow forces at the Last Battle, and generally being a big nuisance throughout the series (gholam, anyone?). Still, he kind of gunked out after 3000 years sleep. Yet, this is not as bad as…
Balthamel: 3rd age, for him, was even more of a failure than for Aginor. The first Foresaken to die.
Then get killed off by another Foresaken, after failing at simply giving headaches to Egwene… Spy –yes. Some murder? Yes. Important in the Grand Scheme of Things? Nah. Especially as Mesaana, and then Graendal, were directing the main body of work in their respective plans.
Asmodean: well… shabby work, admittedly. I guess the one highlight is him going for Choedan Kal male ter’angreal, he almost had it, but failed. And that business of turning to Light before being killed off twice (!) by fellow Foresaken… From the point of view of the Shadow – big fail. Still, his forte lay elsewhere – like music and arts.
Lanfear: a special case. In terms of serving the Shadow… difficult to say. She had a very personal and up close strategy, and she got oh so close in the end. Had it not been for T’a’R, that Compulsion could’ve kept Perrin at bay. Ultimately, she did try to save the Dark One, so I guess she put the final bet on the Shadow, and almost won the jack-pot. Still, she had to go with the strongest-who-cares-for-her, so not sure about Shadow, but a very good strategy that was indeed.
M’Hael: meh, Graendal had it right – a young hot-shot. Not an original F version.
Seems like half of them did give it a try, whilst the other half were rather woeful in their attempts! Thanks for reading, look forward to hearing any comments.
Cheers!
Wetlandernw: I misunderstood. I thought it was which couples/H&W survived. Not which non-channeling couples/H&W.
-AndrewB
I really enjoyed Perrin’g storyline in AMOL, but i thought it was a little silly to have him finally decide to be a leader and make grand declarations that he will lead his people/army in the prev book TOM, just to say in AMOL, “wait a minute, i got other stuff i gotta do, so you guys are on your own”(not an actual quote of course), but if i were one of his followers i would have felt a little abandoned by him at the last battle.
KooZ@575
Nice summary, but here’s a couple of minor corrections:
Ishamael didn’t die at the end of Book 1 – although he took some nasty burns that we still see him recovering from at the start of Book 2.
Graendal isn’t the only Forsaken to kill another one in the 3rd Age. Moridin killed Lanfear in Finnland as the easiest way to get her out (he let the DO grab her soul and put her in a new body as Cyndane.)
D-Mac@587
You brought up a point that I’ve mulled over too. What must it have looked like from Galad’s viewpoint? Here’s this guy that’s promised to lead and fight in the Last Battle then he books out early and never reappears.
Of course WE know what he did was vital – but no one short of Gaul understands 1/2 of what Perrin really did. Furthermore, he’s so modest he would not likely tell anyone. We can only hope Loial teased his role out of him so he gets the proper credit in the histories.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 575
Nice, thanks.
So, ten confirmed dead or otherwise taken care of, with a strong probability of Liandrin either exposed by Suroth when her Darkfriendness became known, or killed by the Shadow to protect Suroth. Not bad.
Too bad Marillin isn’t confirmed dead. She’s creepy.
On a side note, does anyone find it strange that Elayne was shocked when killing Chesmal in battle? I mean, hello? Black Ajah traitor, Darkfriend, Dreadlord AND known murderer, that is four death sentences in a row. Plus, it’s in battle and she is holding saidin. Let ‘er burn! Or is Elayne just squeamish? I mean, who REALLY cares about the fate of a Darkfriend?
It’s even more strange when we see Egwene and Nynaeve a few chapters later.
Paraphrasing:
(They move with the backs to each other.)
Nyn: Who did you just kill?
Eg: A former sitter of the Yellow Ajah.
Nyn: Yay! You go, girl! Woohoo!
:-)
forkroot@588
Cheers!
About Ishamael – guess should’ve made it clearer – he was *thought* to have been killed – ’cause Rand thinks him dead at the end of Book 1. Actually, it was that question, and whether Ishamael was the Dark One, that had me buy the second book straight away.
Ah yes, I kind of think of Moirdin apart from all the other Foresaken, because of his goals and his acts. Good catch! Then he also killed Graendal on the island, and let DO do the same trick and make Hessalam. +2 points to Ishamael then!
AndrewB – Well, I was only assuming you were referring to the comments Isilel & I were making… My point was that we don’t even know very many couples who aren’t bonded, and the only major ones (IMO) are Mat/Tuon and Perrin/Faile. Some would include Galad/Berelain, Morgase/Tallanvor, maybe others; I didn’t. In any case, I don’t have a problem with those four people surviving, and the fact that they’re two couples is okay with me. We saw some bonded couples (and a foursome) survive, and we saw some bonded couples die. I don’t have a problem with that, either. Warders tend to go berserker on everyone nearby when their bond-holder dies, and as for the holders when the Warder dies… given the situation, I’d not be too surprised if they did the equivalent, just with the OP instead of a sword.
If Lan had really died, what would Nynaeve have done? Or vice versa? Nynaeve would have destroyed herself Healing everyone in sight; Lan would have let Demandred’s sword take him in the gut instead of the side. What if Moiraine had died? or Thom? Androl? Pevara? The bonded couples had plenty of opportunity to die, and I think that, realistically, if one partner did, the other would have too.
::shrug:: It’s a matter of opinion, I suppose, and of what you like in your fantasy stories. I don’t mind if a few people – even major characters – get a happy ending instead of a grim one, but others have a different preference.
Stromgard – You’re welcome! It was an exercise I’ve been wanting to follow up anyway, so it was a good excuse. :) My best guess re: Elayne’s reaction is that her whole mindset is “rule of law” – no one should be executed without a trial, even if you know perfectly well that they’re guilty. It’s harder for her to let go of that than it is for Nynaeve or Egwene; they’re a little more pragmatic in certain areas.
Things I’d wish I’d seen:
1) An exchange between Suan and Moiraine.
2) An exchange between Rand and Gallad.
3) Birth of Elaine’s children.
4) Faile being crowned.
5) An exchange between Artur Hawkwing and Tuon.
6) An exchange between Morgaise and ANYone.
7) An exchange between Mat and his father.
BUT, all that said, this was one of the best books I’ve ever read. WELL DONE Sanderson and Team Jordan!!! Three thumbs up!
Tanchicoan @566
The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. Two of three volumes released, Name of the Wind and A Wise Man’s Fear. Quite excellent story, and very well crafted. Rothfuss is, of course, a semi-psychotic nutball, but he’s a brilliant one.
Night Angel trilogy by Brent Weeks. Interesting intrigues and character studies in his work. He spends much less time describing the scenery than others, which leaves more room for internal dialogue and action.
There are always new fantasy releases happening. Some are probably fantastic, some not so much. See what other writers like Scalzi, Gaiman, Cherryh, Feist, Brooks and Card recommend on their own blogs, and you won’t likely go wrong.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 591
I think I found another reason. As far as I can recall, it was the first time Elayne killed, or even seriously harmed, a human (not counting knocking people out with Air), while Egwene and Nynaeve have lots of experience in killing people with the One Power.
In the Great Hunt, they likely killed scores, maybe hundreds, of Seanchans in Falme.
In Shadow Rising, Nynaeve tried to kill Jeaine Ceade with lightning or fire, can’t remember which. (Nynaeve also discovered Balefire all by herself in The Dragon Reborn.)
In Fires of Heaven, Egwene killed hundreds, maybe thousands, of Shaido.
In The Gathering Storm, Egwene killed hundreds of Seanchan.
And while all of that happened, the only time Elayne ever killed any human was when she unraveled the gateway in The Path of Daggers, and that was an accident that happened because some unlucky damane shielded her.
She did not even kill or even try to kill Temaile in Tanchico, even though she couldn’t take her prisoner and it’s perfectly legal to use the One Power to kill a Darkfriend, not to mention that the world would be a better safe if a psychopath like Temaile was not running around, so she could not only rightfully outright kill her for being a Darkfriend, but also claim defense of her own life, since, you know, psycho? (Though I am not sure that Temaile’s little… pleasures… was ever known by Elayne or Nynaeve.)
So, given the circumstances, maybe she is right to be a bit shocked, since it’s her first kill that is not a Shadowspawn, but a person. Even if that person should be put down like a rabid dog, just for being a Darkfriend. I mean, these people are ACTIVELY working to destroy the World and enslaving or exterminating the whole of mankind, and they are making progress. But killing someone, however RIGHT it is to do so, is still hard the first time. Or at least so I’ve been told. And I have little doubt it’s true, especially if you’re not a soldier but need to come to the decision yourself.
Just because Shivan and Calian aren’t mentioned doesn’t mean they weren’t there.
Why didn’t the wolf Heroes appear at Falme and Merillor? Are they only called when there are Darkhound around?
The following Amrlyin should be Logain.
The first Amyrlin of the Grey Tower should be a joint rule of Androl and Pevara. Cads and Logain prepare the two separate Towers for the merger.
Androl knows Jain Farstrider. I do not remember where but he refers to Jain having seen or done something that Androl hadn’t.
Everybody has read The Travels of Jain Farstrider (except Mat).
I was wondering, whether it was just I who missed it, or Min’s viewing regarding Cadsuane teaching something to the Asha’man and Rand which they wouldn’t like.
That they are men, not weapons.
Perhaps she will seek him out as a secret advisor.
Rand becoming Cad’s advisor would be a funny reversion of their roles. Will he call her girl?
Padan Fain. So he entered the Blight one or two books ago, right? And since nothing there could slow Fain down or kill him, how is he not already at Shayol Ghul when Rand gets there?
Fain cannot Travel. He had to walk the whole way.
So.
It is done.
I took quite a bit longer to read than I normally do(helped by the fact that I had numerous things going on almost every night for the past two weeks!)…but I finished this past Thursday night, January 17th. When I had about twenty pages left, I got up to make another cup of tea…just because I wanted to delay the end that little bit longer. And oh, it was worth it. My feeling at the end, while one of sadness for “an ending”…was primarily one of…satisfaction.
I feel that any summarization of my thoughts or review of the book as a whole would be a meager reflection of my true thoughts and feelings while reading the book, but I will say that for the week and a half I spent reading, my thoughts have been whirling and my mind has been spinning and I will say the words that most accurately reflected the state of my musings after reading would be “dazed”…”battered”….”emotionally raw”…”euphoric”…”hollow”… indeed, I often felt I’d slipped partway into the emotional mindset of one of the soldiers on the front lines at Merrilor…under the relentless onslaught of the stench of death and the hot blood of thousands upon thousands…constantly wondering when the next betrayal would come or how salvation could possibly be wrought?
So really, I make this less a review of the great tome that is “A Memory of Light” and more of a melody of praises for the work that is “The Wheel of Time”. One of the finest fantasy series I have ever had the privilege of reading, and if not all things were perfect in the execution of this landmark of literature, maybe that accurately reflects the tale that was told – all stories change in the telling and the threads of truth interwoven throughout are beautiful.
I could talk about the forces of evil and the powers of darkness that descended upon the earth – Demandred and his armies(I can even now hear him shouting “Lews Therin! Face me and fight!” as he strides through the battlefield)…Taim and his dreadlords(what a fitting end did he have – destroyed by the Amyrlin – Egwene, that paragon of Light!)…Padan Fain and his fitting end as the worm he was…Graendal and Moghedien and their fate to survive in the world that is re-shaped without their influence…Lanfear and her ignominious death to Perrin – that gentle blacksmith who finally learned to do what must be done. I could discuss the failures of the powers of darkness and their weaknesses and flaws…their utter pride and slavery to the Dark…but this was not their story.
I could discuss the battle between Rand and the Dark One…their philosophical debate to span the ages…their weave and counter-weaves of worlds shaped to serve their own desires…but as some have mentioned, I feel this resolution of Rand letting the Dark One – that worthless mite, yea that evil void, the darkness unseen – go on existing was not as could have been. Indeed, as has been postulated above, choice – to live one’s own life as one will – does not depend on the existence of a Dark One, especially not one that was proven as insignificant and tragically pitiful as the Dark One was shown to be when Rand dragged It out squirming into the Pattern. I feel – although I could tell from the framing of Rand’s declaration to kill the Dark One that it was not to be – that the story would have been better served if Rand had truly killed the Dark One and crushed his head underneath his heel, as is ever fitting for evil. In the end though, I must again remember, this is a great work of literature in a fantastical world and cannot expect it to reflect perfectly these lives of ours in this universe of ours.
But no, what I instead choose to think on is the choices of the men and women in this world – those who fought and died for the forces of the Light, those who bled and suffered in the Last Battle because it was what had to be done. The villagers of the Two Rivers and the shining forces of the Tairens and Ghealdanians and the valiant soliders fighting under the banner of Andor – those men and women of the Borderlands who gave their last gasping breath to hold the Shadow at bay – those brave men like Hurin who had no great strength or mighty magic, but did what they knew to be right. Olver, crying in the shadows and being clawed at by the hands of evil and feeling abandonded by all…calling forth the forces of the Horn of Valere and realizing that he had not been abandonded. Someone came back for him and rescued him from the heart of darkness…oh Light be praised! And yes, there were many mighty heroes performing great deads on the battlefield – oh to see Lan Mandragoran riding on his mighty steed through the Trolloc hordes to reach the champion of evil – Demandred himself – and then sheathe the sword in order to crush the life from the mighty general of the Dark. I loved reading the exploits of these great heroes…Mat, Egwene, Elayne, Galad, Tam al’Thor, Perrin, Aviendha, Thom Merrillin…but in the end, the most thrilling and heart-swelling moments for me were reading of the ordinary men and women who were not valiant warriors or great heroes or wielders of great Power…those who fought and died for the Light. Androl, weakest of the weak – and yea, he fought. Talmanes, dying from the poison of a Thakan’dar wrought blade – and yea, he fought. Aviendha, crippled and dying and moments from death – and yea, she fought. The men of the Two Rivers, without arrows and with little hope of survival – charged the enemy just to salvage what hope there was left. The Dragonsworn who stood before Darkhounds at the very Pit of Doom in order to protect the last hope of the Light…
I feel I’ve already gone on to long, but reading of the great struggle of the Light versus the Dark and seeing the fight of the ordinary men and women in the Last Battle struck me powerfully and I wanted to share that with y’all. I’m looking forward to reading these again someday, but now, I will take a little more time simply to reflect and enjoy the memories this series has left me with. Light, but it’s been a good run, my friends!! And thanks for the hundreds of posts I got to read before this one!
Wetlander @@@@@ 577
I am looking forward for your take on the issue (+ general comments as well). As things are settling in my mind as time passes since I finished the book this particular conundrum is growing larger in my mind. I thought a major theme in WOT was that the Pattern is neutral and there is balance of Good and Bad. The DO is outside it so
hisits absense after its death wouldn’t affect the balance between the Perrins and Assunavas of the world.Also, speaking of DO’s absense, being “killed” or sealed perfectly away is different how? Am I misunderstanding something?
sushisushi @@@@@ 572
Well, not all of the 300 years (even if her tenure lasts so long) would be during the hardest of times. Anyway, I think your point is right overall. Her sacrifice was made even greater by the fact that she was missing out on a lot in her future.
It just occured to me that The Creator (by definition) must have created the DO, and then sealed him away for all time, as the litany says. Who is Rand to take that decision away? To kill what the Creator made, and placed safely away, for some reason? As the Creators representative, Rands best action would be to make right what humans put assunder. As he did. No?
Wow, several intriguing walls of text have appeared in the last 36 hours. I’ve got out of town guests and don’t have time to finish reading much less responding – I’ll be back later!
For now, and apologies is this has already been covered – but Wetlander @556, Isilel @540 – the weave for the Warder bond is entirely a weave of Spirit. It’s primary effect is to emotionally/spiritually connect Aes Sedai to Warder, and it can be tweaked to create a compulsion like effect. The physical effects always struck me as side-effects; it’s primary manifestations imo have always been spiritual/emotional.
At any rate, to me, the clincher is that the weave *is* a weave of pure Spirit. So there’s no strangeness, for me, in Rand remaining bonded even after the body switch.
@Birgit–
“Androl knows Jain Farstrider. I do not remember where but he refers to Jain having seen or done something that Androl hadn’t.
Everybody has read The Travels of Jain Farstrider (except Mat).”
I don’t have the book to hand, but at some point Androl says something like “The sound of a rushing spring always made him think of Jain,” in a very familiar manner. I think the father-son relationship has been debunked, but it seems our everyman traveler knew the hero traveler quite well!
ETA–ooh 600 :-)
Wetlandernw @529
I just noticed, you referred to forkroot’s comments @31 and repeated his error. The Andoran man who appears momentarily in AMoL is not Almen Bunt, it is Hyam Kinch.
Tektonica 2598
Bingo. The “purpose” of a Dark One to the universe is not, and will not be, known. While I agree with Wetlander regarding the supposition that killing the evil one would not remove free will, and therefore would not result in a Stepford Randland, there would be repercussions, in altering Creation to that extent. We could debate that for years and never get closer to Jordan’s true vision in that regard. But the cosmology here is still far superior to that of many fantasy stories which attempt to look at Creation.
RE: The Androl-Jain connection. Given Androl’s obsessive need to seek for his true purpose, and the various places he went, skills he gained, and so on, it makes plenty of sense that he could have hooked up with another itinerant traveller for a period of time. How many people out there could truly impress one such as Androl, who acquires abilities as dogs acquire fleas? Farstrider would be one of the few.
A minor nit to pick: a few people have mentioned that Demandred took over a whole continent full of channelers. According to the maps I have seen, Shara is not a separate continent but part of the Westlands one. Yeah, you’ve got the Aiel Waste, the Cliffs of Dawn and the Great Rift inbetween Shara and Randland proper, but until continental drift (or another physical breaking!) comes along, Shara is part of Westlands.
One more awesome moment of Tams……. Every trolloc he fells, he does it with one arrow, whereas throughout the whole series there is always mention of trollocs falling after being struck multiple times
@602. That’s kind of a semantic arguement, Demandred conquered Shara, which is big enough to be a continent.
As for it being connected to the rest. Asia to Europe anyone?
Samadai @603: The other character who is mentioned as doing that: Birgitte. (Not bad company to be in, archery-wise.)
Who’s the man
That would risk his neck for his brother man?
(Tam!)
Can ya dig it?
Who’s the cat that won’t cop out
When there’s danger all about
(Tam!)
Right on
You see this cat Tam is a bad mother–
(Shut your mouth)
But I’m talkin’ about Tam
(Then we can dig it)
We’re talkin’ about shafts.
Freelancer @601 – I believe it really is Bunt, due to the Fade reference. In TEoTW Ch. 34, they see the innkeeper talking to a Fade. Bunt confronts the innkeeper about his odd friend; when the innkeeper goes back inside and he sees the boys, he decides that they are probably the ones the Fade is looking for, and gives them a ride on the strength of it. In AMoL, when Mat sees the man and searches his memories, he gets “A… cart? A Fade?”
Kinch did indeed give them a ride in his cart, but there was no Fade involved in his scenario.
Coolest Scene: Lan/Demandred – Wow! As lame as the Gawyn and Galad fights ended up being, I think they helped the payoff for this scene.
Uncoolest Scene: Mat/Shaisan – That seemed pretty anti-climatic. I think Leigh touched on this, but to me, it was not that Perrin had more screen time than Mat, but that Slayer got more screen time than Shaisan. I was pretty happy with Mat’s screen time actually.
So, I took my time with this book. I savored it. And I had to put it down and walk away from time to time. Characters I’ve known and loved for over two decades…half my life…were dying and it hurt.
But I too realized, as Rand did, that in dying these characters were being who made them so special to me in the first place. And it was easier and easier to stomach.
However,
Bela. Bela still hurts to think about. She was a good horse. And unlike our heroes she didn’t choose. She did as she was asked, nothing more nothing less. And it really felt like the most “real” loss in the book for me. Sad.
Finished the book a few days ago, haven’t gotten a chance to post until now. I had a few issues with the book as a whole, which I’m sure have been mentioned by others (I’ve read the first 100 comments or so), but overall I thought it was great, and am so thankful for its existence. I’ve been reading WoT for less time than many (I discovered it in 7th grade, almost exactly a decade a go), but it’s been a huge part of my life since and I am very sorry to see it go. I was introduced to it by a friend who I’m still very close to, and we read the book in chunks book discussion style so we could talk about it, then read the last fifty pages together.
As I said above there were a couple things I wish were different (a few pacing issues, a few missing scenes, one or two things that didn’t totally make sense), but I thought the very end of the end, the epilogue, was utterly perfect. I’ve always liked it when stories don’t resolve totally neatly, and I thought that the Wheel of Time ended on a perfectly ambiguous note. It’s a weird comparison, but it reminded me of the end of the series finale of Scrubs, which concluded with the main character (J.D.) fantasizing about what his life might be like going forward, and concluding that the future could be whatever he (or the audience) wanted it to be. I think it’s a pretty powerful sentiment.
I’m one of the people who really dislikes the epilogue of Harry Potter (and all of Rowling’s public pronouncements about what happens to everyone) precisely because it’s so explicit. I don’t want to know for sure that Harry marries Ginny, that they have three children, that Neville works as Herbology professor, etc. It’s all so neat, so boring.
Which is why I was so happy that Jordan chose to conclude the way he did. Nothing is set in stone, and every reader can decide for him or herself what the future holds. We have some hints, and some guidelines like Nicola’s foretelling, but really, who’s to say that everything doesn’t turn out exactly as you want it to?
For a series that has been such a big part of my (and many others’) lives as this one has, for such a long time, I think that’s kinda beautiful.
“Who’s to say this isn’t what happens? Who can tell me that my fantasies won’t come true? Just this once.” – J.D.
@582 wetlandernw
Re the Hawkwing sword vs LTT sword theories.
I won’t bang on about the sword, because it is a bit OT for this discussion. I will just leave it to agree to disagree. :)
However, what is related and tangentially on topic is if we look at the statement on P225 of AMoL where Rand says “I am him. I always was. I remember it now.”
Given that specific clarification by the author of what it means to be Rand/LTT at the end of the book ie, Rand is LTT, the statement in TGS cannot be talking about Rand’s memories vs LTT’s memories in a concrete sense. It is gibberish if one tries to assert that even though it is the same person’s memory, it is not that person’s memory. (That makes sense earlier in the book when LTT’s voice and Rand the Shepherd were two separate identities, it doesn’t make sense if they are the same person).
What does make sense in that statement in AGS is if it ties in with the prophecy that Rand and LTT and one other (Moridin) become one, AND ties in with the AMoL statement on P225. That is, the statement in AGS is the first open indication that Rand and LTT are the same. ie that it is an acknowledgement that there is no separate LTT any more. The memory of the sword does not come from LTT specifically because LTT is Rand and LTT’s memories are Rand’s memories. There is no such thing as an LTT vs Rand memory any more at this point. If the specific statement by the author on p225 is to be believed, such separation is impossible.
Just to throw something more into the mix, given that LTT preceded Hawkwing by a long time, how would LTT have had any specific knowledge of Hawky’s sword anyway? If he couldn’t have had any knowledge of Justice, then why bother to bring up his non-memory of something he never knew in the first place at all in AGS? Either it was something he knew about, and Justice wasn’t that, or it was something irrelevant, and why mention it? Not only does the quote from AGS not support the Justice theory, frankly, looked at in conjunction with Hawkwing’s history, the quote from p225 of AMoL and plain logic, it actually seems to confound the Justice theory.
There are even more daggers in the back of the theory that Tam gets Justice, but, as I said, I think such discussion might be looked at as OT.
Marks – Believe what you want.
Wow.
thx leigh, I have not had a chance to post much since way back when we ‘broke the tor.com thingie” when you went on vacation in 2008ish?
seriously,
just now had time to finish the book, damn good!
My biggest surprise and question from an emotional /psychological point… Siuan was one of my favorite characters, Gawyn and then even more so Egwene’s deaths kicked me in the gut.
But, I first got misty eyed when Olver was riding Bela.. Thank the Light she is in the book I thought… Then I shed my first tear when Oliver is wishing for Wind, and Bela shows her worth yet again!
When Bela got shot with an arrow in the flank, Olver said “Our” last goodbyes to the white horse that helped Rand save Tam in TEOTW… I got a tear in my eye.. Then had to leave the room for a while and have a cry/sob in the bathroom…. For Bela,…. Bless her. I expected to get emotional over many possible outcomes, but I my reaction to Bela’s death caught me off guard.
I expected to get emotional at times in AMOL, the last book, as I have read the series many, many times and feel strongly about so many of the characters… Still I took Bela’s death the hardest.
Why? I wonder?
Anyone have thoughts on the matter?
Kooz@590
When we last see Graendal in her original body, she is about to be tortured by Shaidar Haran. RJ was always quite good about leaving the details to our imagination but in interviews he has acknowledged that SH raped Moghedien when he was punishing her, and I suppose it’s safe to assume that SH did the same to Graendal – BWS followed RH’s lead in omitting gruesome details.
We don’t know for sure if Shaidar Haran did go and kill Graendal, but it seems like it would be the most likely killer. Moridin doesn’t appear in the written scene. So I’d cautiously chalk up Graendal’s pre-Hessalam death to SH.
Marks@611
When I wrote my original comment I was under the impression that we had direct confirmation from Brandon that the sword mentioned in TGS was indeed Justice. To be thorough, I went looking for that confirming quotation and found the same thing that Wetlandernw did: all the alleged confirmation (from BWS) seems to be secondhand. All the direct quotations from BWS are evasive, neither confirming nor denying.
I do think the balance of the evidence indicates that it is Justice. Terez did a FAQ that is worth a look:
Cut/paste the link – Tor’s annoying spam filter is stopping a direct URL.
https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_1010fkbjwmg4&revision=_latest
Note that the FAQ does not contain any material from AMoL yet.
I will also note that the Encyclopedia-WOT thinks the issue is settled; but the encyclopedia has been occasionally incorrect in other matters.
With all that said, the evidence in favor of Justice is very strong but it is not conclusive. So I won’t claim the issue is settled. By all means hold your view, but be aware you’ll be in a fairly small minority (which doesn’t make you wrong.)
It would be interesting to see if Brandon would be willing to answer more directly now that the series is complete. Perhaps someone going to one of the upcoming signings will volunteer to ask him.
Birgit @595
I wonder how Moraine’s rescue would have been different if Mat *had* read “The Travels of Jain Farstrider” and seen the author’s picture on the cover?
FWIW, several of us will be attending signings in February and would be pleased to collect questions. I have several on my list, and have added the “confirm Justice” query to the queue. However, the combination of facts that it was “centuries old, unearthed only recently” and that Rand remembered it from his own Rand-lifetime memories makes it difficult to come up with a list of possibilities. Since Brandon also confirmed that it was seen in TGH, and seen as an actual sword, not merely in a tapestry or artwork, there just aren’t many options.
Wetlandernw@618
I guess another question would be to get confirmation that it was indeed Shaidar Haran who killed Graendal (thus precipitating her resurrection in an ugly body.)
I also wonder how much Brandon would say about Alanna: What triggered her flight from Tear? Was she a Darkfriend? Did Moridin kidnap her then or later?
And here’s one I bet he’ll like: Since balefire actually strengthens cuendillar, would Egwene’s new “Flame of Tar Valon” weave (the anti-balefire weave) weaken it?
Alternatively, if for every weave there is an opposite, could there be a weave that would turn the chains in Tar Valon’s harbors back to iron?
For people attending the signings that brings up an interesting question.
Now that there will be no more books the term RAFO is a bit moot.
There will be nothing else to read. Does this mean questions will be answered or does this mean that questions will just be diverted in a different way.
an even less satisfactory way. :)
People ask questions for answers not diversions but it will be what it will be.
I’ve seen the term REFO, though… “Read the Encyclopedia and Find Out.”
Forkroot – Got ’em on my list. Fun stuff!
also Longtimefan – Some things will be deferred to the Encyclopedia, but there are some things that will deliberately be left unanswered. IIRC, there are some things designated in RJ’s notes to remain unresolved; there are also some things that he simply didn’t answer in the notes. For example, IIRC someone asked Brandon about how the body swap worked, and he said he honestly didn’t know. RJ had written it, but didn’t explain it.
One more book. YAY!
well that will be good then.
Marks @611
The argument in favor of the sword given to Tam having belonged to Lews Therin is extremely slim. There is no mention anywhere of him possessing a particular, recognizable sword. Be’lal speaks of when they
For men who can channel, having a sword is not a symbol of status or command, as it is for a mundane soldier who has had to use it to fight. Generals and kings are given notable swords in honor of their conquests or victories; the same would not hold such value for a channeler.
Brandon stated that this particular sword was seen in The Great Hunt. So, a sword which had been buried for centuries and only recently unearthed at the Prologue of TGS, is also a sword which was seen a little more than a year previously. That can only mean that it was a sword seen in its tel’aran’rhiod version, held by one of the Heroes of the Horn at Falme, while the “real” sword was yet buried. While Lews Therin is named among the Heroes, he wasn’t present at that time, since he’s been reborn as Rand. This leaves Hawkwing’s Justice.
Finally, when Rand has this thought while in Arad Doman:
This is well before any integration of personalities takes place. He would be neither confused, nor ambiguous about distinguishing one personality’s memories from the other. It would be pointless gibberish for Rand to make such a clear statement if it was an impossibility, as you suggest. Besides, even after the integration on Dragonmount, it is completely valid to know which memories occurred during Rand’s lifetime, and which during Lews Therin’s, and identify them so. It was Rand al’Thor who viewed that sword at Falme, after the Horn had summoned the Heroes, not Lews Therin.
@ALL
Harriet said in one of the early tour events that the Encyclopedia will feature answers to some plot issues, that it will be definitive, unlike the BBoBA, that it will be over 200 pages, and to expect it in about two years. Oh, and that there will never be a digital version.
Nah, just teasing about the ebook version.
Many issues will not be resolved, many expected, even prophesized events won’t be observed, and many questions left unanswered.
Hi Forkroot @616
Thank you. I read the post by Terez, and am sort of at a bit of a loss. Mainly because I think it contains a number of logical errors and one really far fetched assumption (eg Hawky taking someone else’s sword and using it for his own – swords are like suits, tailor made for the user specifically, using someone else’s for real battle is like wearing someone else’s clothes – ok for poor people, but kings, highly unlikely).
Having said that, this discussion thread does not seem to be the place to discuss the sword issue – and, as you point out, whatever I, or a majority of others might think, if BS says it is Justice then it is, and if he says it is not, then it is not. End of story…and not essential to the series in any case. Happy to debate it elsewhere.
@623 freelancer. I guess the point I was trying to make was that in fact that passage could well be the first clue we get at which Rand is combined with LTT. ie, it is not so much about a sword, as about the first instance where Rand starts to recognise that he is LTT. ie are we focusing on a sword when we should be focusing on what it might mean for Rand’s, and the plot’s development?
Birgit @@@@@ 595
Indeed Fain cannot travel, but he got to the blight right around the same time Nynaeve dumped Lan at the opposite side of the borderlands from the gap. So we’re to believe it took Fain the same amount of time to reach Shayol Ghul from the edge of the gap as it took Lan to cross all of the borderlands, hold the gap for a week or two, fight all down through Shienar, and then finish the fight at Merrilor? No way. He’d have either gotten there before Rand or gotten distracted in the blight doing all kinds of messed up killing and trolloc enslaving. Either way I still want to know what he was up to the whole time.
Wetlandernw@618 and forkroot@619 I second the request to ask about Alanna. I know the book was never going to perfectly wrap up every single character’s plotline, but that one seems to be the biggest gap.
Also, could you ask him roughly how many Aes Sedai there are left after the Last Battle? I don’t know if he’ll speculate any about their future organisation, but it seems that the non-Yellow Ajahs have been severely reduced in numbers (was going to say decimated, but someone would be sure to jump on me about the ten percent thing ;)
Tanchicoan@625 Well, you do have to bear in mind that Fain was walking, when Lan was riding a horse, so would be moving faster to start with. The Blight is rather more gnarly ground than the Borderlands, slower to traverse given the density of nasties, even if you are a crazy half-mist avatar of evil. Even messed up encounters with Trollocs and Worms take time!
(edited to add: I think this thread is starting to get rather gnarly, too – the top says 614 posts, when this is 626. We need the Flame of Tar Valon, stat!)
tl;dr thank you Brandon Sanderson.
I was 15 in 1990 when I read Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. I was in the middle of a decade where I was attempting to read every epic fantasy I could find. Ironically for a series known for…lacklustre cover art, it was the cover of Eye of the World which drew me to it. A warrior escorting a noblewoman by the light of the silvery moon. I was intrigued. Six books would be released in the next four years. I was mesmerized. I adored these books and loved these characters. Those were the early days of the internet, but already Randland fans were organizing. I was spending my nights reading every post at the wonderful rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan. My own contributions were negligible, but once Mark Loy AND Lara Beaton both responded to a post of mine! Heady days to be sure. The peak of my Wheel of Time fandom was with the publication of Lord of Chaos 1994. The book which climaxed with Dumai’s Wells. As the kids say: shit got real. It was an Empire’s Strikes Back moment for the series. And at that moment I thought Wheel of Time the greatest thing I had yet to read. And then…we started waiting. After 6 books in 4 years, we would get 5 books in 11 years. And such long waits bred such anticipation…and then disappointment. The series ground to a screeching halt. The magic, the wonder…the awesome…were all gone. Where once I would devour the books in one sitting, it now took months to struggle through each volume. It was the most disheartening experience I have had with any item of popular art. And when Robert Jordan finally succumbed to his illness…I confess I thought it was for the best that the Wheel of Time pass on too.
I had read the first two Mistborn novels when it was announced Brandon Sanderson had been hired to complete Wheel of Time. At first I recall feeling sympathy. I could not conceive of the gargantuan task facing Sanderson. To anchor someone with such a challenge seemed unfair, if not cruel. But I enjoyed the Mistborn books. And they proved that Sanderson has a knack for writing a great action scene. Also, Sanderson is very creative with regards to magic and how to use it. I begun to ponder what Sanderson would do unleashed with the One Power. For the first time in over a decade, I got excited for the next Wheel of Time book. And when The Gathering Storm was finally released, it felt like coming home after a long exile. After so long, a rollicking good Wheel of Time story! It was wonderful. And with the last two novels, the quality even increased. Now they are not works of perfection. The odd anachronistic modern dialogue was annoying. And many attempts at humor had me wincing. But Sanderson brought the awesome back to the Wheel of Time. And for that I say, thank you sir.
ValMar@597
I’ll take a crack at your question.
“Also, speaking of DO’s absense, being “killed” or sealed perfectly away is different how?”
Functionally, for the world, I would think a dead DO is the same as a perfectly sealed away DO. The DO can’t touch the world and no one can contact the DO. However, the Creator did not make a perfect prison. It would not seem possible, by definition, that a human could improve on the work done by the Creator. The text says the DO’s prison was “forged anew.” That does not give me enough info to infer that it was a perfect seal. Hence, inevitably, after a few ages go by, the seal will fail or be breached.
@595. birgit
Androl knows Jain Farstrider. I do not remember where but he refers to Jain having seen or done something that Androl hadn’t.
“Everybody has read The Travels of Jain Farstrider (except Mat).”
A very valid point. The next quote states my position quite succinctly and nicely, I sensed a familiarity in the way he said the name.
@600. decgem
“I don’t have the book to hand, but at some point Androl says something like “The sound of a rushing spring always made him think of Jain,” in a very familiar manner. I think the father-son relationship has been debunked, but it seems our everyman traveler knew the hero traveler quite well!”
508.forkroot
Hm. I’ll see that and raise you $10: What if Moridin could sense where she was through Rand’s bond? We’ve never really asked how he discovered that she held Rand’s bond, and how he knew where to find her – though of course, there are more prosaic explanations.
huaixiong @509
and 512.Freelancer
An interesting parallel is Solon, who gave Athens her laws and then immediately left into exile, because otherwise the Athenians would keep trying to change his laws (through him) instead of learning to live with them.
525.ValMar
I think I like that idea. We didn’t miss the Gholam at the Last Battle, did we? We might not have missed Fain either.
538.huaixiong
Good points, and not the first time.
544.Kah-thurak
and others re: ebook
Well, I also have no horse in this race, but I would ask a different question: When a corporation makes a decision infuriating to many of its customers and potential customers, and those customers find an effective and legal means of venting their displeasure, do you side with the customers or the corporation?
We’ve all been there. Cheap printers whose single-use cartridges are deliberately designed to cost almost as much as a new printer. DVDs with different zones. Kindle books which cost as much as a hardcover.
Each time I’ve run into one of these I’ve thought “There are thousands like me who are angered by this, I wish we had a way to band together and make them stop”. So now a few thousand have found a way – shall we condemn them for it?
Now I personally may decide strengthening Jordan’s legacy justifies inconveniencing a few thousand people, or I might not – but I won’t call them childish for struggling against a corporation which chose to ignore their wishes. It’s part of the free market.
Some have argued that this is an abuse of the amazon reviews section, which are meant to review the book and not the publisher’s policy. There is some truth to this, but much untruth as well. A public protest in a square inconveniences those who use it, causing traffic congestion, etc. Yet we still think that the right of assembly justifies those inconveniences. Is this not the online equivalent? Many of the alternatives offered (“send a letter to the publisher”) amount to pushing the protest out of the public eye, thereby rendering it ineffective. If public protests were outlawed on the grounds that they are an abuse of public spaces, and that protesters could submit anonymous complaints to the Ministry of Protests, most of us would consider that an infringement of the First Amendment.
What is more important to the common good – that the amazon comments section be kept pure, or that unpopular publishers’ decisions be seen as such?
I suspect that most of the antagonism towards this protest arises from the fact that we deeply respect Jordan, his legacy, and Harriet and Sanderson, and it hurts us to see their decisions derided in public – sometimes in acrimonious and disrespectful terms. But my hurt feelings should not trump someone else’s right to complain.
hoping @@@@@ 628
What I meant by this, in particular, was if the DO is the source of all evil in WOT, it being death or sealed away maybe should have the same effect on it’s ability to affect the Pattern. Of course maybe the DO was put away in this manner by the Creator for a reason and Rand shouldn’t have tinkered with the “system”.
Basically, I am wandering that if when the DO is sealed away and not able to affect the Pattern there is still balance to it. What’s the difference between killing and sealing the DO, if this is correct?
Maybe, the Pattern/Wheel of Time isn’t all there is to the WOT Universe. The are other forces outside these such as the Creator and the DO, thus the DO is necessary for the whole thing to work, but without touching the Pattern directly. Phew, there, solved ;)
JLevy @@@@@ 630
We wouldn’t have missed Fain at all had he been satisfactory dealth with earlier, e.g. killing him in the fight in Far Madding. In effect he brought nothing to the series after that and the only point for him to show up in AMOL was to die, finally!
This is said in hindsight, of course. RJ didn’t know the future and he had plans for the characters and plot lines during the time they were introduced. After all was done and dusted, some of these plotlines and charaters felt redundant.
chaplainchris@599
And this is also why a sharp flow of spirit severs someone from the Source and a blunt wall shields them.
A Bond connects the souls and this connection gives a Warder some of the benefits found when a channeler holds the Source. We all know this. Greater stamina being one. A youthful sense of energy, but not appearance or increased age. Mechanically this seems appropriate since they are only indirectly connected to the Source through a proxy via a standing flow of Spirit.
The guy behind me in line asked about Androl as a character. RJ was going to create a character who was a leather worker later on in the series. BS worked out the details and had a lot of flexibility with him.
I finished the book a week ago Saturday and I’ve spent the intervening hours trying to come to grips with everything. My thoughts have not set and are still roiling at a slow boil. Only traces make any sense at all so far.
A couple of thoughts for now and forgive me if this isn’t very clear but it has to do with the body switch between Rand and Moridin.
The biggest issue most have had here in the comments has to do with when the switch happened and Rands thoughts as he carried a body out of the tunnel.
I’m sure most have noticed that the text says “A body.” which drives our discussion.
My thought is this. No matter what body you are in, you think you are yourself. Your consciousness is what counts. Rand is already in Moridin’s body at this point and is carrying his prior shell of a damaged body out. Moridin is gone, his consciousness scattered to the ether by the amount of the true power coursing through it. Rand moved into the less damaged body through their bond and ran out.
Part two:
“I tried,” Flinn said desperately, looking at Rand. “Nynaeve did, too. Together we tried, with Moiraine Sedai’s angreal. Nothing worked. Nobody knows how to save him.”
As I said before, Moridin is gone, blown away. Rand has moved into the other body. So there is no one in Rand’s old body.
Healing weaves are mostly spirit although we all know that Nynaeve uses all of them at once. Spirit healing won’t work if there is no spirit to work with.
So, Rand’s old body slips away, no healing weaves work, but Moridin’s body recovers since there is a spirit inside.
Oh, that was Nakomi at the opening in my opinion…
Jeff S.
I am only an egg
sushisushi @626:
When a post is deleted by the spam filters or the moderators, it is also deleted from the post count, but the number it is/would have been is skipped. (For example, notice that post #2 is missing; it goes straight from 1 to 3.) So the fact that the widget says 614 posts and yours is #626 means that 11 or 12 have been deleted (depending on whether the 614 includes yours or not).
OUTSTANDING BOOK! WAY TO GO TEAM JORDAN AND BRANDON SANDERSON!
I have read the book 3 times so far, and i am still learning new stuff. but what kills me to the bone each and every time is….
WHY IN THE BLOOD AND BLOODY ASHES DID EGWENE HAVE TO DIE!?!?!?!?!?
im man enough to say i cried my eyes out after reading that….
Come on and play AVIENDA FOR A DAY!
Welcome contestants! Here’s your first question:
After “get me the hell out of here,” what would you tell Graendal to do?
*tick* *tock* *tick* *tock**tick* *tock*
Wetlandernw @618: I will be attending the Philly signing. I intend to ask the following questions if I do not see them answered beforehand.
1) When do Egwene, Moiraine, and Nynaeve learn who Moridin is (that he is a Forsaken but into a new body? During the meeting of the rulers at Field of Merrilor, Rand says to Egwene that Rand will kill him. Egwene then asks if Rand means Moridin. During a POV for Nyneave and Moiraine, each name Moridin by name in their thoughts.
(If it has to be asked as a non-spoiler question, I could ask if any female member of Team Light, knows who Moridin is?
2) After the Last Battle, are Mat, Perrin and Rand still ta’veren.
The non-spoiler form of this question could be that does a ta’veren remain a ta’veren for all of his/her life? Or does the ta’vereness last only so long as the Pattern requires that he/she be a t’averen?
For me personnally, there was one other matter that was not resolved in ToM. IIRC, during the ToM tour, when somebody asked what Mesaana receveived in exchange for providing Graendal with the an’greal, Brandaon said RAFO. I do not recall this issue was settled in AMoL.
As I stated above, Rand’s ta’vereness may need to be handled differently know that he is in Moridin’s body. As I understand it (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong), a person’s ability to channel is determined by his/her soul, rather than his/her body. This is why the Dark One could stuff his soul in a femal body but the body would still channel saidin.
Yet, for some reason, when Rand switches his soul into Moridin’s body, he is unable to channel. If his soul is able to channel, should not he still be able to channel in a new body? (Is it as simple if as a prerequisite to channel, the body must be physically able to do so. So long as the body has the physical attributes to channel, then the soul can channel and it does not matter which whether a male soul enters a female or male body. The male soul always channels saidin. If that is the case, then a female soul would always channel saidar, irrespective of the body it is in.)
To complicate matters further, we have Rand’s bonding with his three lovers. Based upon the text, it appears that Rand’s bond transfers to his new body. (In other words, it was attached to the soul.) Does this mean that in general, a Warder’s bond is atached to the soul rather than the body? Or is Rand’s bond slightly different?
I think it is unique and different from the standard Warder bond – or the Ashaman husband/wife bond.
If it is the same and the bond attaches to the soul, then a Warder who dies before his Aes Sedai releases the bond (for example, Gawyn), then when he is reborn, his soul will still have the Warder bond attached — even if he is a farmer from birth to death. This does not make sense to me.
Another thought. I think that Perrin, Nynaeve (especially if she knows who Moridin was) and possible Flinn, will be able to deduce that Rand is now in Moridin’s body. They know that Rand and Moridin came out of Shayol Ghul. Heck, Nynaeve saw Rand battling Moridin. It will not be too hard to deduce what occurred when they discover that Moridin’s body is missing. Cads deduced the same.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
JonathanLevy @630
Nobody is stopping anybody from complaining. But pretending to review a work of art as your method of complaint, not about the art, but a marketing decision behind the art, is a far more concrete example of cheating than the supposed cheating of making a decision on behalf of a passed-away writer’s legacy. It is, after all, only a book. Pretend that it means so very much to you, and you shoot yourself in the foot by making it seem less. The folks posting those bogus “reviews” are hypocrites. Let them whine where whines belong.
AndrewB:
I assumed that Rand could no longer channel because both he and Moridan were burnt out by Callandor and the volume of Saidan that they were channeling. I do believe that the ability is tied to the soul, as the warder bond is. (The warder bond is Spirit, ergo, it would make sense that it was tied to the soul.)
However, I think all bonds are broken when one dies, unless the soul transfer happens quickly, like the DO did when he placed his various Forsaken in new bodies. Rand and Moridan switched before death, so all bonds should remain in place.
AndrewB @@@@@ 637:
ETA–Tektonica beat me to it, ever so much more succinctly and with more accurate terminology, so please feel free to ignore the following, heh…
I’m not nearly as great a sage as some WoTologists here :-) But, if I may take a stab at some of your points regarding Rand’s undeath, channeling and the Warder bond…
In regards to Rand’s status as a channeler of saidin after his ordeal in the Pit of Doom, two possibilities leap out at me, each related to one of the main viewpoints in the ‘magic pipe’ debate. If you subscribe to the theory that Rand’s pipe is a unique item whose only power is to light itself, and this is sort of Rand’s parting gift from the Creator, then you might interpret Rand’s inability to sense the Source as indicating that he has been Gentled. I think this is conceivable, given the vast amounts of Power that he was touching. I know technically it seems that Mordin was the one actually channeling all the True Power, but perhaps Rand was the one mainly responsible for drawing on saidin, and it was too much even for him? (Nyn and Moiraine, channeling saidar, weren’t stilled because of Nyn’s great strength combined with M’s sa’angreal.) Does this sound accurate to any of the masters of WoT physics out there?
If, on the other hand, you subscribe to the theory that Rand’s pipe is just a pipe, and its spontaneous combustion came from Rand, then it would seem Rand is…channeling?…a greater kind of power than he had ever before; my feeling is that his experience mucking around with the Pattern imprinted itself on him somehow. Possibly he was gentled, as I theorized above, but has this *other* ability now to compensate for it. Or perhaps he wasn’t gentled, but his experiences made him an ur-channeler–melding his entire being so thoroughly with the act of channeling the stuff of creation (no longer differentiated even between saidin and saidar) that he doesn’t feel it anymore, he just does it; one could say he just IS it. If that’s the case, I kinda hope he impregnated Avi before he became a demigod, because who knows how all THAT would turn out.
Any of this sound plausible? I’m just spitballing.
Re: the warder bond: as I understand it, the bond is severed at death–that is the trauma that creates the unpleasant side effects in the survivor. This would imply, given Rand’s bonds’ intactness (and the lack of crazysad displayed in his ladies), that he did not die before his soul transmigrated to Moridin’s body. Whether this is a unique occurence or something that has been possible all along, I couldn’t possibly say.
I wonder if Tor will put up a post for unresolved mysteries/plotlines we’re wondering about? I know they have the “which stories would you like to see continue” thread, but a lot of us have been bringing up much more minor details. like AndrewB’s question about Mesaana above. In the meantime, I’ll just use this space…
This is a very, very minor thing, but I always half expected the unnamed Tairen False Dragon to show up again. If you recall, he was leading the High Lords on a merry chase in Mirkwood circa books 2&3, then keeled from his horse the moment Rand did something (Falme? Callandor?) and was butchered, and “no one even seems to know his name” and all that. Just seemed mysterious yet evocative–something that always stuck with me. If it was just a commentary on the fleetingness of importance that the Wheel affords to some people and not others, it works in a very lovely way, but I would have been happy for it to turn out to have more plot significance. My looney theory toward the end was that that was Moridin’s body (can’t remember if this FD was able to Channel). Powerful but mostly anonymous male channeler, untimely death of an important Forsaken–seems like a match made in
heavenShayol Ghul.Course, I have no idea how long a body can keep for that sort of thing. I suppose the DO could keep it on ice ’til one of his lackeys messed up unto temporary death. Also of course, by this logic, this anonymous FD could also have ended up as Dashivangar. Both nu-Forsaken were superficially described in a Tairen kind of way.
I was very worried when Fain, fog and zombie trollocs arrived. I thought “Oh, crap,” what is the light going to do about that AND the Darkhounds? Even though we had not seen him for quite a while. Then he took out Mat and was heading for Rand next. Scary stuff. Mat destroyed him with a good trick. I thought it was enough and did not feel cheated.
Regarding ta’veren
@637 AndrewB: “I couldn’t feel your tugging, or see the visions, Perrin thought [to Rand]. You’re no longer ta’veren, I suspect neither am I.” Page 894
Regarding Graendal/Hessalam:
@614 forkroot
@590 KooZ
I disagree that Graendal was killed by Moridin or Shaidar Haran. I don’t think she was killed at all; simply disfigured instead. Page 68/69 of the prologue- Moggy notes “there was something familiar about her stance” and after she recognizes Graendal’s voice she thinks “the way the woman carried herself was right.” I don’t recall any of the other “reborn” Forsaken carrying over their old posture and voice into their new body. In fact Balthamel moved quite seductivley in Halima’s body, IIRC.
“In fact Balthamel moved quite seductivley in Halima’s body, IIRC.”
Hey, Farstrider, who says Balthamel didn’t move seductively in his dude heyday? :-p
It’s too bad Androl got bonded to a black. How does Pevara keep that from him? Maybe his reverse bond will help him.
I’m referring of course to the trick that Emarin and Pevara play on Master Dobser. Pevara makes sure that Dobser can overhear what they’re about to say. Then Emarin asks her directly: “He cannot hear what we say?”. “No,” Pevara said.
@644 decgem That is a disturbing picture, Balthamel sashaying suggestivley with his scary grinning mask on….
Robert Jordan made it abundantly clear that the potential for channeling is a thing of the soul. But it seems that the body’s link to the Power is physical, or else Nyneave would find nothing physical to Heal in someone stilled/gentled. From a SciFi.com chat (via Theoryland):
All it would take for the ending we read is for Moridin’s body to have been burned out due to the unbuffered draw of the True Power, in the Pit itself no less, through Callandor. Upon switching, Rand, though still possessing the potential for channeling, can no longer sense the Source, because of the burnt out body.
@646 Happy shudders!
@645 I noticed that too. Quite a blunder…or something more?
633.JeffS.
Very interesting idea. I’m not sure if it’s not unnecessarily complicated, though – wouldn’t a soulless body be dead? Or appear to have been the victim of a draghkar attack? In other words, something a Yellow might recognize? The closest example we have to this is Birgitte after being torn from T’A’R, and her soul was present.
636.Man-0-Manetheran
Come dear Hessalam, see you that handsome young man yonder? He is about to marry unwisely – you must seduce him. No no, you mustn’t use the Power, that would be wrong. Your natural grace and charm will suffice. Are you not beautiful and seductive? I think you are, surely others must too. Fail me not in this, dear Hessalam, or I will weep for many nights – you don’t want me to be sad, do you?
637. AndrewB
Moiraine’s description of ta’verenness in the early books strongly suggest that it is a temporary phenomenon, though it may last a while. She even warns Rand that a foolish act might cause a great disruption to the pattern might make him lose his ta’verenness.
637. AndrewB
(also 639.Tektonica and 640.decgem)
My pet theory is that Moridin’s body was never able to channel Saidin, only the TP. We never see Moridin channel Saidin, only the TP, and he gets his saa very quickly. The only evidence I ever found which does not fit with this theory is that in one scene early in TPoD (I think) Moridin regrets that he did not find a male angreal in the Ebou Dar cache.
Other people on this thread have suggested that Moridin burned himself out channeling the TP or OP via the unbuffered sa’angreal (Callandor). This is possible, but burning yourself out is presumably very painful, like stilling (see Annoura) – but when Rand wakes up in the tent he feels no pain. This can be explained away (e.g. Aes Sedai healed away the pain, even though they have no idea how to heal burning-out) but it’s still a strong counter-argument, in my opinion.
638.Freelancer
I browsed through several pages of those one-star reviews, and the universal complaint was that an attempt was made to reach the #1 place at their expense, by denying them the ability to read the book on the day of its release. Whether it was fair or unfair to other books on that list was almost an afterthought – brought up by those who thought it was a clever argument, but disregarded by the great majority. If that majority is not complaining about cheating, you cannot accuse them of hypocrisy by pointing out that they are also cheating.
643.Farstrider
When Mat dances with Halima, he notices that she’s not such a good dancer because she tries to lead all the time.
Also, Hessalam has only been in her new body a short time, so she might not have gotten used to it yet.
645. David-2
648.decgem
This might be a smoking gun for other Aes Sedai, but not for Pevara, because Dobser is a darkfriend. Why should this matter, you ask? Well, it turns out Pevara was quite excitable as a youngster, and the register of her raising ceremony makes it clear what happened:
Side effects include increased lifespan and reduced skin tension. :)
If, on the other hand, you subscribe to the theory that Rand’s pipe is just a pipe, and its spontaneous combustion came from Rand, then it would seem Rand is…channeling?…a greater kind of power than he had ever before; my feeling is that his experience mucking around with the Pattern imprinted itself on him somehow. Possibly he was gentled, as I theorized above, but has this *other* ability now to compensate for it. Or perhaps he wasn’t gentled, but his experiences made him an ur-channeler–melding his entire being so thoroughly with the act of channeling the stuff of creation (no longer differentiated even between saidin and saidar) that he doesn’t feel it anymore, he just does it; one could say he just IS it. If that’s the case, I kinda hope he impregnated Avi before he became a demigod, because who knows how all THAT would turn out.
Well, Min said Aviendha’s babies would be special…
@645, 648 (David-2 and decgem)
it was my understanding that they were playing a trick on Dobser to make him think he was deafened while they were having a discussion on their “plans”
i.e. they wanted him to hear what was said so Emarin could use his skills of interogation.
…. longest captcha ever on that last post: Y2808 TIMES guitBI
@651CorDarei–Aes Sedai shouldn’t be able to straight-out lie in order to trick someone, right? She said he couldn’t hear; she knew he COULD hear; that shouldn’t work under the 3 Oaths–isn’t that so?
No, it is a double negative. “He can’t hear us?” – “No” (he can). It was pretty cleverly done, I thought.
Oh, cool. That is clever. Fast reading gets me again!
hoping@628
You can argue that the Creator’s prison for the DO was not “perfect” in the sense that it was vulnerable to an outside agent (Beidomon and Mierin creating the “Bore”.) Furthermore, the original prison apparently allowed for the DO to touch the world at least to the extent of projecting his power for the AOLers to sense and investigate.
Given the circular cosmology of the WoT, I think it’s safe to assume that what Rand did at the end of AMoL restored the prison to it’s original state (there are no “seals” this time.) If he didn’t, then someone else is going to have to restore it before the Second Age rolls around again.
JonathanLevy@649
Elan Morin Tedronai was an Aes Sedai in the AOL – thus he must have been able to channel saidin. Per RJ quoted above, that ability stays with the soul, so Moridin should have been able to channel saidin.
656. Forkroot
Are you referring to the quote at 647. Freelancer? It does not seem to contain the proof that you imply it contains. It says “primarily” linked to the soul, not “solely”, and that is said by the questioner, not RJ, and it RJ’s answer makes it clear that some physical element is present, because stilling affects the body and not the soul. Furthermore, it refers to the process of being reborn, not being transmigrated by the DO.
If the DO had captured a random channeler, stilled him, killed him, and then transmigrated Ishamael’s soul into it, do you think Ishamael would be able to channel Saidin in that body?
We don’t have a clear-cut explanation of how the relationship between the channeling ability and the body and soul. And even if we did, the DO has shown the ability to break the rules, by creating a woman who channels Saidin.
The greater weakness of my little pet theory is the notion that a man would be able to channel the TP but not Saidin. However, this might be a question worth asking, if 637. AndrewB is so inclined (hint hint Andrew!) – it’s not likely to get a RAFO at this stage.
In any case, the answer will give us some insight on Moridin – if he can’t channel Saidin (admittedly the less likely possibility), then his being reborn this way is part of the cruel joke the DO played on him, like Halima. If he can channel Saidin, but nonetheless uses the TP exclusively, it shows us just how desperate he is for oblivion, to the extent that he prefers madness to sanity.
Farstrider @243: I do not think that quote is dispositive. First, Perrin notes that he no longer feels Rand’s tug at him. This means exactly what it says it means — at that point in time, Perrin does not feel Rand mentally tugging at him. However, Rand did not always tug at Perrin. It was only at times when “the Pattern” needed to bring Perrin closer to Rand. For example, Perrin felt the tugging after the battle of Two Rivers. That is why he went to Camelyn. During the PLOD, I do not recall Rand tugging at Perrin — until at least after the Battle of Malden.
As to seeing the visions, I thought that was not due to the ta’veren nature the Three Rivers Boys. Rather, it was due to the fact that all three were critical to the Final Battle. Had Mat or Perrin died before the Last Battle, then Team Light would have lossed. I beleive that a mydraal once compared them to the legs of a tripod. Cut one leg off, and the structure collapses. Further, the visions only started in the middle of the novels. However, throughout the entirety of the WoT, all three are ta’veren.
(An aside — I think it is appropriate now to refer to Rand, Mat & Perrin as the Two Rivers Men. They have graduated from boys to men.)
IMO, Perrin’s opinion that because he cannot feel the tugging to Rand or see the visions, he is no longer ta’veren cannot be taken as definitive. We have sometimes seen a character(s) make definitive statements. Yet the statements turn out to be wrong. For example, all of the characters thought that if the Horn was blown by a Darkfriend/Shadowspawn, then the Heroes would have to fight for the Dark One. Hawkwing states that this is wrong in AMoL. I beleive Perrin’s statement at the end of AMoL is potentially one of those instances.
Freelancer @647 stated: ”
All it would take for the ending we read is for Moridin’s body to have been burned out due to the unbuffered draw of the True Power, in the Pit itself no less, through Callandor. Upon switching, Rand, though still possessing the potential for channeling, can no longer sense the Source, because of the burnt out body.”
That explanation works well with the textual support. Until we receive any definitive word from Team Jordan (or somebody else makes a more convincing argument), I will champion this theory.
“I wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t know then.” Bob Seger, Against the Wind
AndrewB
edited: JonathanLevy @657 — It was my understanding that on order to be granted the right to use the True Power, one had to have the ability to channel the One Power. One “channels” True Power; just as one “channels” the One Power. In ACoS when we first learn on True Power, I thought that Moggy’s statement to Moridin was that only 29 people had received that “gift.”
Per RJ, channeling saidar/saidin is a prerequisite for channeling the True Power (Theoryland interview database, 9/4/2005, Matt Hatch reporting). (Of course, in another interview he also implied that it wasn’t a prerequisite.) Plus, the other Forsaken think of how Moridin only uses the True Power now, implying he had previously used something else (i.e., saidin).
Channeling is a property of both the soul and the body. If a person is burned out or stilled, they will not be so when they are reborn in their next incarnation.
My personal theory on Rand’s lighting the pipe is that although he is apparently no longer ta’veren, he is still the Dragon and is “one with the land.” That’s the source of his power.
FWIW, RJ specifically said that someone who is shielded from using the One Power is also shielded from the True Power. Elsewhere, he also specifically said that a person who cannot channel the One Power cannot channel the True Power either.
Also, the ability to channel is both a thing of the soul and a matter of genetics.
ETA: Just noticed that bad_platypus and I must have been typing at the same time, and said almost exactly the same thing. :) Why do I so often forget to scroll up and see if someone else has posted while I’m typing?
hoping @@@@@ 628/forkroot @@@@@ 656
OK, the DO was “imprisoned” by the Creator at the time of creation. I believe that this was done to “limit” the DOs’access to the Wheel & the Pattern. The Creator had to keep the DO from directly “touching” the Pattern and “unraveling” it and destroying the Wheel. The Creator and the Dark One are oppisite sides of the same coin. Good and Evil, Yin and Yang, the Balance. The “influence” of both the Creator and the DO are necessary to allow “choice”, which is what Rand discovered in his showdown with the DO.
BTW, I think that “imprisoned” is not the precise term in this context. “Shut out” seems more accurate since the Wheel seems to exist within the “force” that is the essence of the Creator and the Dark One.
And that’s how I imagine it working. Others may have other ideas, but this works for me. Maybe it’ll be in the encyclopedia.
I also read Rand’s inability to channel as Moridin’s body having been burned out.
Demandred threatened to do that to Taim when he had him shielded/force linked with the TP earlier on. And Rand channeled basically as much as he needed through Moridin regardless of how much his body could actually hold.
As for whether or any or all of the boys are still Ta’veren, I think Mat is the most likely candidate for retaining that title post Tarmon Gaidon if any did–though that’s pure speculation.
RJ was planning on doing outrigger novels prior to his illness focusing on him and Fortuouna in Seanchan. And being Ta’veren would come in handy for dealing with a hold continent’s worth of chaos.
Perrin might still be as well, whether he wishes/thinks it or not. It depends on whether the Wheel needs him to restore the balance anywhere else in the westlands. The Pattern, she is a cruel mistress…
Rand Mk. II is the most likely candidate for being done (assuming they all aren’t). Numerous people have already gone into detail about how the stability of the current nations are better off with everyone thinking him dead.
NOOOOO!!!! BELA!!!!!
Awesome! And a satisfying end to 22 years of reading and waiting! Would of liked removing books 7 through 9 and replacing with more details from 13 and 14, but who’s perfect?
I didn’t read read the last 500 posts or so, but did anyone equate Rand seeing an old Aiel woman when he carried Moridin out of Shayol Ghul as his seeing Nakomi?
@664 – It’s been all but confirmed that the gray-haired Aiel outside the Pit was Nakomi. Brandon said she shows up between the Last Battle and the end of the book, or something to that effect. Fairly obvious, I think.
Jonathan Levy @649
I don’t see it as more complicated. In fact I see it as less complicated.
I know that the Dragkher supposedly kills by stealing the soul but that is not what I was considering. I was looking more at the consciousness angle although I guess the soul would be wound up in that.
Others have posited that Moridin’s body was burned out by the amount of true power coursing through it. I think it carried his conciousness and soul along with it. It may be wishfull thinking on my part, but it gives him the oblivion that he was seeking.
Now to jump into the “how do you light a pipe when you can’t channel discussion.”
Toward the end of sealing of the bore, the text describes how Rand is using saidar and saidin in their pure forms, not made up of the 5 parts, but a pure essence of light itself. Rand doesn’t need to channel, he has a direct conduit to that essence.
And I’m posting again to take away the effect of having the dark ones number associated with me. I know he’s sealed away now, but naming or numbering the Dark one still can’t be a good idea…
“The Pipe”
Shucks. It’s so simple. Rand simply had A Memory of Light-ing a pipe — and it was lit!
Hi, just logging in to say YAY I’ve finished the book and I’m sure any comments I have to discuss have been discussed previously… but I can’t wait for re-read! Now to go ready all 668 entries.
@658 AndrewB:
The definition way back in TEOTW glossary states “ta’veren: A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, prehaps all life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.”
Also in TEOTW, when Loial first explains to Rand that he is ta’veren he states that the Web of Destiny can last for weeks or for years.
Arguably, Rand has fulfilled his destiny through his actions at Shayol Ghul. Perrin fulfilled his with the whole Wolf King/hammer/falcon/broken crown. Mat met his fate as described by the Finns: died/lived again, married the Daughter of the Nine Moons, gave half the light of the world to save the world. In addition, they all came together at Shayol Ghul for the finale as the Pattern deemed necessary. Sounds to me like the Web of Destiny is complete.
For what purpose would the Pattern choose to keep the three of them as ta’veren?
forkroot @656
I will disagree for now. There is a significant difference between an existence with no Dark One, and an existence with one “perfectly” sealed away. If there were no difference, then Rand would have had no reason to not destroy it when he was able to. His own “possibility” construct had shown him that it would be wrong. I defer on digging into that piece of philosophy right now, I’ll wait for the re-read, for I will have much to say on the topic.
JonathanLevy @657
Yes. Permit me to reiterate. The capacity, or potential, to be able to channel, is a function of the soul. But, as you also state, there must be a proper physical attribute in order to sense and embrace the Source. Stilling/gentling is a destruction of that attribute, judging by Nynaeve’s ability to Heal it. I don’t see anywhere in the story where a Healing impacts the soul itself, only the physical nature of the person.
When the DO transmigrated a killed forsaken, he needed a body which was capable of channeling to put them in. This is what makes sense with the description of Balthamel being put in a female body because they had to work with what was available. You can’t tell me there were no male bodies handy; but to think that there were no male bodies which could channel, that I’d believe.
So here’s something we don’t know: Are there people who inhabit bodies which might be capable of channeling, but who don’t possess a channeler’s soul? Are there people with channeler’s souls who didn’t draw a body on this birth which is able to channel? There is no reason for there not to be these variables, given what we know that there are distinctions between those who may be taught, and those who will channel whatever they know or wish.
To answer your next question, no. Moving a channeler’s soul into the body of one stilled and killed would result in a non-channeling person. That is completely consistent with the structure I posit.
I don’t believe that the DO “broke” any rule by making a woman who channels saidin. In fact, it supports my argument. If the physical requirement for accessing the Source is identical in males and females (or, in spite of a minor physical difference, irrelevant to which aspect of the Power is acquired), while the choice of saidin or saidar is purely of the soul, which has been declared by canonical statement to be consistently male or female, then all that is required is to put a male channeler’s soul into a female channeling-capable body, and you get Halima every time. Q.E.D.
On the ta’veren question, I’m convinced that none of our trio has retained that Pattern-bound aspect, going all the way back to the first description from Loial:
Being ta’veren is therefore considered, by Ogier with their long memories, to be a temporary state. This is not to say that they have been returned to their pre-Winternight conditions. Mat still has his other-memories and his luck; Perrin is still a wolf-brother with the attendant super-senses; Rand still has his awareness of Lews Therin’s memories, though no longer of the personality. He clearly has also been granted an extra bit, though precisely what comprises that remains unknown. I like the idea that he is able to pull upon the pure power of Creation, and that he will be supremely cautious about using it where it might be noticed.
A Memory of Light had many non-sensical elements in it. I didnt read this review in full because of the intervening fan-girl exclamations.
The storyline and the events taking place in it are completely upto the author. I never saw or took part in discussions in the Internet about the Wheel of Time. I do not have anything against what happened in the book. How they were presented is the problem.
1) Egwene knew Morridin? Perhaps I am wrong, but I didnt think anyone apart from Rand on the side of the Light knew of his existence.
2) Egwene ‘Blushed’ after Moiraine talked about the unstained tower and bending knees? Why, she wasnt responsible for it. I refer to the event which happened in Dumai Wells. She certainly didnt bend any knees this time.
3) For a man supossedly with a lot of wisdom in ruling, Rand or mostly Lews Therin made a idiotic pact that wouldnt last a couple of centuries. Though after the ending this treaty might help in initiating another Age of Legends, it simply doesnt make sense for Rand to become pre-The Shadow Rising unrealistical optimist after all he had experiencedand recovered though memories.
4) Egwene’s counter-balefire weave of Light shouldnt have harmed the Sharans. They have just recently encountered the creatures of Shadow, making clear that they were not Shadowspawn or Shadow-allied by themselves. pg.695 (The Last Battle, Demandred POV)
5) The Rand and Tuon meeting was an absolute sham. Not even the least realistic, however you look at it. Rand and Mat acting like kids and still convincing Tuon? Very cute. Would have been more believable if there was some Taveren effect going on. Clearly that wasnt the case.
Even though the book was written by a writer of a different generation from Robert Jordan, I felt confident after The Gathering Storm that the gritty realism of the series would hold true. Cracks appeared in The Towers of Midnight which felt like un-edited work. Now, A Memory of Light seemed to be a tale of heros hi-fying each other. I read on some amateur online reviews that Brandon Sanderson has managed to bring out the best in The Wheel of Time, in a way that Robert Jordan couldnt. Words cant possibly show my resentment to this statement.
I was disappointed in the wrong places with A Memory of Light and felt satsfied at the right places. Mat was overdone, Rand was made to sound like schoolboy. The psyche of the characters has changed from mature men being occasionally childish to men acting like kids, to look cute to the readers. Apart from these points, I enjoyed the book especially the Last Battle and Lan’s fight with Demandred.
Finished over the weekend and took a few days to let it sink in. Bottom Line Up Front: This may be the last WOT book, but it will not be the last one that takes place in this universe. There is simply too much material there to be mined and money to be made. It will not happen for a few years, but it will happen.
Anyway…
Overall, I liked it a lot. I have some nit-picks, but that was always going to be the case. I started reading these back in 91 so it is pretty hard for me to look at the series objectively at this point. I really liked the way it ended for Rand. I always figured he would survive somehow, but I never anticipated it quite that way. It was very nice. That’s it for now.
@671 Freelancer
I’m not so sure Mat’s luck would be the same anymore if he isn’t Ta’veren. We haven’t seen any direct indication that it’s still intact.
IIRC Mat’s luck was supposed to be some sort of combination of a specific effect of his Ta’veren nature and a change in him made by the Shadar Logoth dagger.
It would kinda suck for him if he lost his mojo.
Gambling completely aside, I don’t think he would enjoy loosing the edge it granted him in personal combat. Particularly if he ends up moving to Seanchan.
@@@@@ 672
Have to disagree with some of that, just to go through your bullet points.
1) Yes, this seems an error, however she could easily have been told this or found it via dreaming. A glitch, but not a game breaker.
2) You’re assuming that refers to Dumai’s Well and only there. “The Unstained Tower breaks” could easily be the schism, of which she was part of, as she discusses in TGS where she freely admits that she was wrong to rebel, just that it was a lesser evil than the alternative of leaving Elaida in charge.
3) The pact wasn’t idiotic. Not to mention that Lews Therin came from an age where you could reason with people and that war didn’t exist. Having his full memory of that life, if anything, should actually make it even more likely that he’d try for a peace. The pact actually makes a lot of sense. Borders stay as they are now and a neutral third party will descend upon anyone who breaches the peace. I’ve seen worse ideas.
4) Actually, it would affect them just fine. She makes a comment about “knowing” it affected those who were of the shadow more strongly, but first, she just invented the weave and doesn’t fully understand it. Second, just because shadow is hit harder doesn’t mean everything else is immune.
5) Why would you assume there wasn’t Ta’veren influence going on? Around Rand there is ALWAYS Ta’veren influence in effect.
Can’t really get into the rest as that becomes a your opinion vs mine and serves no real purpose.
@@@@@ 673.
Possible, but highly doubtful. First, Brandon and Harriet have said no. Neither of them are really in need of money to make the offer of such worthwhile to change their mind. As for TOR. TOR has a long history of respecting its authors, I seriously doubt that will change now. While it’s possible we might get something new 30+ years from now when Harriet and the current TOR Leadership are gone, by then something new will have been written for everyone to love and WOT will be an old classic, the way Tolkien is now.
Heck, maybe Tolkien is a good example, there were a few extra novels placed by his son, but no one really built upon Middle Earth despite there being a huge amount of opportunity there.
@@@@@674
That would really depend on if his luck is part of his Ta’Veren nature. Which is up for debate. Personally, I don’t think it is. He was Ta’Veren since book one. He didn’t get his luck until TDR. Personally I think Verin, or someone else, did something with that 5-dice Ter’Angreal that went missing at the same time Mat got lucky. It was listed by Verin as being stolen by the Black Ajah, but then never turns up again and is never seen with them. Heck, I’d think Mat stole it except he obviously doesn’t ever comment on having it.
Mat made comments (somewhere in book 6-11) about him being lucky before they all left the Two rivers. Now he does qualify the statement with something like ( not this lucky) but he has always had some good luck. The Dice ter’angreal was nothing but a red herring.
come to think of it, it might have been in the Dragon Reborn, I don’t have any of the books handy.
Croaker42 @673
This world was Robert Jordan’s vision. Brandon Sanderson did what was necessary to bring his original story line to completion. Neither he nor Harriet has any desire to “expand” upon that original story. Brandon has plenty of projects of his own, and while grateful for the unique opportunity to grow his brand on the coattails of a master story-teller, I’m sure he’s happier telling his own.
About Mat’s luck. Yes, there were times that it was souped-up by his ta’verenness, which made it no longer luck, but a guarantee of things going his way. That level of it is gone, along with the dice never again rattling in his head to inform him of a critical event. But his unusually good luck will remain. No, there is nothing definitive about this in the text. This supposition is based on what has happened to each of our male heroes, what has been done to them, independent of being ta’veren.
Samadai @676
Yep, TDR Ch30:
When he meets Juilin Sandar on the rooftops of Tear later, he tells him that he’s always been lucky. Mat knows enough about his own luck that he recognized the difference when it was somewhat better, as in Shienar, before it started going into full afterburner.
@676
There’s no evidence that it is or is not a red herring. I freely admit that it’s my personal fan theory that it has something to do with the dice. Beyond that though, there is still the issue that his super luck starts in TDR, not in TEotW. Your quote supports that, Mat was always naturally lucky. But then, IRL I’m naturally lucky. What Mat is from TDR forward is an order of magnitude beyond naturally lucky.
KakitaOCU @678
Nobody is disputing that Mat’s luck after being Healed in Tar Valon is not natural. (Not saying that the Healing did, or did not, contribute to that, more likely an after-effect of the Shadar Logoth dagger) It is definitely supernatural. The questions are how much was it enhanced by his being ta’veren, and if no longer such, how enhanced will it remain.
Freelancer @672:
So here’s something we don’t know: Are there people who inhabit bodies which might be capable of channeling, but who don’t possess a channeler’s soul? Are there people with channeler’s souls who didn’t draw a body on this birth which is able to channel?
I have always assumed, that that’s exactly how the things were supposed to be in “our” age in WoT cosmology – that channeling bodies aren’t available and/or are extremely rare and weak, if one believes that there could be something in various supernatural phenomena that can’t be reliably replicated. Lack of reliability would fit the description of blocked wilders, after all… ;).
Don’t know about the other way round, though.
Wcarter @674:
I am fairly sure that we were intended to understand that the superboys were no longer ta’veren at this point, otherwise why mention it? They have played their Pattern-ordained roles and corrected it, there is no longer need for it.
And I really hope that Mat’s unnatural luck is gone and that he now finally has to earn his own way, heh.
After all, he still has the spoils: memories, elevated position, reputation, his own learning experiences, etc. if he can’t make it from there under his own steam, he was never worthy in the first place.
Ditto Perrin.
Mat with his luck and his ta’verenness reconquering Seanchan would have been a fairly dull story premise IMHO, because of course nobody would have been able to stand against him. They’d conveniently slip on a banan peel at a crucial moment or something. Now, a matured, but fully human Mat? That could have been interesting and fresh.
@KakitaOCU
The Dumai Wells incident was totally disconnected from Egwene. Even in the manner where she accepts responsiblity like an Aiel, the matter was far removed from her scope of any presumed control. I think she was just elected Amyrlin at that time.
The pact is idiotic if you understand the nature of rulers or humans to annex other nations or simply subjugate a group of people they resent. This was evident even in the almost Shadow-free times between the Trolloc Wars and the end of the Reign of Hawking. I think the idea of this treaty sounds good in theory to you, but both within the Wheel of Time universe and reality this does not stand much chance of ever being. I think you need to read more carefully between the lines, Lews Therin ruled only during the War of Power and among people who did not unite together but fought independently. Such a person would know of the reality of psychological attitudes which occur in individuals for domination.
So the counter-balefire weave of Light would destroy people of the Light as well? Come on. That makes it just as bad as balefire. If it did kill but with just less dramatic effect, why is there need to mention the point? This is wrong by simple matter of principle.
Finally, the last time Rand exuded the Taveren effect on Tuon, she could sense it and fight it off, if barely. Even the post-The Gathering Storm Rand’s positive Taveren effect was resisted by Egwene. If it was indeed Taveren swirls, then it must have been shown as Tuon sensing it.
These are finer details which make the story plausible. In absence of this, there is merely inspirational fan sentiment which carries the book along.
The glitch that you call it is simply a mark of carelessness.
Isilel @@@@@ 680
“I have always assumed, that that’s exactly how the things were supposed to be in “our” age in WoT cosmology – that channeling bodies aren’t available and/or are extremely rare and weak, if one believes that there could be something in various supernatural phenomena that can’t be reliably replicated. Lack of reliability would fit the description of blocked wilders, after all… ;).”
I really like that idea!! Love it when fantasy cosmology can work its way into real-world (supposed) phenomenon :-)
@681. Achilles189
You say the pact (Dragon Peace) is idiotic, but your arguments seem to boil down to: It Won’t Work. I agree in that it will not create everlasting peace. But is that the only measure of success?
How much peace is needed to make it not ‘idiotic’? If it allows for peace for all those who were at Merrilor alone, it’s a peace that will last hundreds of years. If it only provides for peace for the linespan of the mundanes at Merrilor, it’s still 60-80 years of peace, at least. For people that have experienced 2 continent-spanning wars in the past 20 years, that might sound pretty good.
Maybe the Dragon Peace doesn’t work at all. Maybe all the leaders go right back on their words as soon as the Last Battle’s done. Even then, calling the Dragon Peace ‘idiotic’ is strange because it wouldn’t have cost anyone anything.
In the end, your classification of the Dragon Peace as ‘idiotic’ is very strange to me given that the very worst possible outcome is that everyone acts like it doesn’t exist, while the best outcome would be peace for an indeterminant amount of time.
I can see no way to describe as ‘idiotic’ a risk that offers possible peace and no downside. ‘Naive’ maybe, but ‘idiotic’? No.
@681 Achillies189
I’m not so sure Tuon did fight off the Ta’veren effects in either incident. During their first meeting, the argument could be made that the pattern needed her to resist the effects of Dark!Rand more than he needed her to bow to him.
The effects she was feeling could very well have been his own menace and a distortion caused by a Ta’veren holding the True Power.
Then there is is the fact that when two or more Ta’veren gather together, the effect increases. It hurts to breathe when trying to resist Rand, how possible could it be to resist him with say a 50% increase in mojo?
I have been trying to catch up since this came out. More likely to have monkees fly out of my…well, nevermind.
Im on break at work so this will be brief.
I agree that the Kin and Accepted needed to be used but here is the issue. If they link, they are screwed. They have no defense of their own. They have to rely on the protection of the leader of the circle to protect them. Look at the cleansing. Eben was it detected the ‘gar channeling saidin, but since he was linked, he was reduced to a physical attack. He got cooked.
So look at this, Asha’man have battle channeling PRIMARILY as their teaching and EVERYTHING is to be done with the tower, burnouts be damned. Then the get hand to hand combat training. So even without channeling, they have a modicum of self protection available.
If you link 6-12 Accepted into a circle, the AS leading would be reduced to protecting these girls from other channelers, AAANDD all the trollocs. MMMM….Tasty little morsels. Every stray arrow spear etc has to be sheilded against. each one that gets through reduces the number. At least at Mayene, the only real danger is wearing them out.
Dark One Prison.
Quite simply the Creator refrains from interfering and the Dark One does not. The prison keeps him from doing so. As it weakened he interfered with the pattern to the point of distruction and yet the Creator took no pains to counteract that. Instead it was left up to people to chose to deny the Dark One.
Perhaps the Creator is also imprisoned but no one wants to break into his prison. :)
As the Creator does not have to directly lay hands on the pattern to make people good but its presence allows for “good” behavior so to is it that the Dark One does on have to tangle its fingers in the warp and weft to allow people their choice of “bad” behavior.
An imprisoned Dark One. life as ususal. A break in the prison and it is practially an apocolypse (both in the time when the prison was breached in the Age of Legends and in this current turning with the weakend and breaking seals) with a strong undercurrent of evil inbetween since Mordin was popping in and out of reality to influence people on beahalf of his Master.
Although now that the Dark One is sealed away again does that mean that no one can wield the true power? Probably not. Which is fine since Sadin is clean now. ;)
Freelancer@671
Actually I don’t think we disagree — the point I made was that Rand likely restored the prison to the same state as the Creator made it. While my argument was based on circular cosmology, it is in harmony with your argument that the Creator must have had a pretty good reason for the original configuration.
You’ll also note that I acknowledged that the original prison allowed the DO to touch the world at least enough to be sensed. One can certainly make an argument for more and I will be looking forward to your comments on this when we hit that subject in the re-read.
forkroot
Hmm. I think you’ll find it mentioned in the story more than once that prior to the creation of the Bore, people were unaware of the existence of the Dark One. I don’t think that its prison permitted it being sensed by occupants of the world. I spent a bit of time hunting, but the only thing I have been able to find is from TEotW, just after Perrin and Egwene are rescued from the Whitecloaks by Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve, and Lan is talking to Perrin about his new ability:
Admittedly, even Lan can have misinformation about the time prior to the Bore, but I’m certain that I’ve seen more evidence than this that the Dark One was unknown to the world during the Age of Legends. Hmm, I suppose I could poke into the old FAQ…but not tonight.
Longtime reader (since TGH re-read, actually) and (very) seldom poster with a few thoughts. Wall of text time–but to be fair this is only my second post in this thread. I’m efficient!
Re Imprisoned vs Dead Dark One:
Someone else laid it out pretty eloquently, but I saw the difference between a “perfectly” imprisoned Dark One and no Dark One at all as being about choice. In the AoL, we know that they had basically eliminated war, disease, hunger, et al. before the DO was Bored (Heh. “Bored”)…which means that all those things existed at some point in the 2nd age. People become increasingly prone to darker impulses over over the century after Mierin and Beidomon did their thing, but there was certainly evil in the world before. The existence of the dark one allows the choice to do wrong.
Now that the DO is imprisoned as he was pre-bore (which was my reading as to what happened, anyways), things will probably slowly get better as his influence recedes, but they won’t be sterilely perfect because people still can (and will) make evil–or even just poor–choices. What freaked Rand out about Stepford Elayne is that she was in a world with no real choice or free will after evil is totally removed from the Wheel. Without just a dash of evil (and a pinch of salt), the choice to do good becomes (will become? Became? Tenses are hard) meaningless, and world becomes a very boring (and creepy, apparently) place very quickely. At least, that’s what I took from it. (I re-read what I just wrote and am 90% sure it made sense. Okay…85%).
Re Rand’s Pipe:
As I (and the commentors) see it, there are basically four options as o what happened in that brief but very interesting paragraph.
One, he’s unknowingly in a dreamshard of his own creation. While this one has a certain “…whoa, dude” factor that I like (*insert Inception reference*), I think there’s way too much from everyone else’s PoV for it to be all that plausible.
Two, the pipe is a ter’angreal that doesn’t require channeling, and it was either given to Rand by Alivia or the Creator as a sort of thank-you party-favor. I suppose there isn’t really much evidence against this theory, but I dunno…I don’t see a lot for it either. They’re said to exist, but we don’t see much of the non-channeling ter’angreal in the series, particularly one that is totally thought activated (seems the a thought-activated pipe would be a fire hazard, no?). That semi-rules it out as being from Alivia, unless I’m forgetting a throwaway reference earlier in the series. And it would be an awfully lame party-favor. Seems like the Creator could at least do, like, a wine-tasting or something. But above all, Rand’s thought about his “impossible pipe” make me doubt this one. Rand would certainly recognize a ter’angreal, no?
Option three is that he can no longer channel saidin, but instead can tap into a sort of primordial One Power, as he does when sealing the Bore. I like this one–he did, after all, do just this a few pages earlier–but the way that it’s phrased is far different from any sort of channeling we’ve ever seen in the series. “[Rand] thought of the pipe being lit. And it was.” He also directly thinks, “[Rand] could not channel”. It’s possible he just doesn’t know what he’s doing (like his first channeling in TEotW), but it seems a little unlikely to me. Though if Aviendha isn’t pregnant yet, this would actually be a very logical explanation for her kids being able to touch the One Power as children. So there’s that.
Fourth is that Rand is simply able to manipulate the pattern to an extent. I like this one the best (that’s why I saved it for last, see)–Rand did just spend a third of the book weaving the pattern, and it seems to jibe best with what Rand thinks and how the section is written. I also like it on a more character payoff-y way (if anyone deserves a little demigod power, it’s Mr. Martyr), but that’s just me. My pet theory that I don’t think anyone has explicitly mentioned before now is that this’ll work as if Rand is a Dreamer, only in the real world (sort of tying in to theory #1, above).
Why? Well, it would be relatively understandable for us; we’ve become quite familiar with ye olde tel’aran’rhiod, after all, so it’s an easy way to understand what Rand can/cannot do (this is my meta explanation). It also makes some sense with the dream/real world mixing that was happening at Shayol Ghul–Rand was intertwined with the pattern there, and took some of that intermingling with him, perhaps with the aid/consent of Ms. Creator, Nakomi (yes, that’s what I understood that bit to mean, though I won’t elaborate for now. You’re welcome). Maybe it also has something to do with how the body switch happened…I dunno, haven’t thought that part out (my in-universe explanation).
It also cleans up a couple of potential character problems, namely Rand riding off into the sunset and abandoning at least one pregnant girlfriend. Seems a little out of character for Rand “I can save the universe because I was raised better this time” al’Thor to just abandon his two (six?) kids like that. If he can teleport dream-style (teledream? Dreamtaport?) a’la Perrin, it makes it pretty easy to take his sabbatical while still being there for his children/ladies. He could also avoid a lot of awkward questions if he could change his appearance (“Mommy, why is one of the forsaken sleeping in our barn?”).
Anyways, that my $.02. I really love that this series can still inspire such frenzied theorizing even after its conclusion. ‘Tis a wonderful thing, that. *Tips hat in general direction of Brandon Sanderson. So…Utah?*
Hmm, apparently anything in brackets dissapears in this thread. Those quotes about the pipe were supposed to be “(Rand) thought of the pipe being lit. And it was” and “(Rand) could not channel”.
Though I’d guess most of you could figure that out on your own.
671.Freelancer
Ok, let me see if I can summarize this:
1) There are two binary abilities to channel (yes or no), one associated with the soul, and one with the body. The Soul ability is maintained between incarnations.
2) The Power which is channeled (Saidin/Saidar) is an attribute of the Soul. However, since male souls are naturally reincarnated in male bodies, and female souls in female ones, this point is usually moot.
3) The strength of the talent is an attribute of the body. From this it follows that the strength can vary from incarnation to incarnation.
4) As an extension of #3, if the body becomes sufficiently damaged (stilling or burning out), then a person cannot channel anymore despite point #1.
This is actually a pretty good theory, and consistently explains quite a few difficult pieces of data:
1) Halima (male soul in female body which has the channeling ability)
2)
Cyndane being stronger now than Lanfear was(thanks to point #2) EDIT: This is wrong, see correction by birgit @692, confirmed in WH:13 and WH:35)3) Whittling away Moiraine’s strength by damaging her body (point #2)
There are a few data points which are not so consistent with it – but for brevity I will only discuss the main one. I don’t think there will be a theory which explains everything perfectly, mind you, so even if we accept my objections this may still be the best theory we’ve got.
The main downside to this theory is that it’s not consistent with the Culling theory (that is, the White Tower effectively removes most channelers from the breeding pool, thereby culling the ability over time). I’ll try to explain:
Suppose that 1% of souls can channel, and 1% of bodies can channel, and that souls are assigned randomly to bodies, with few exceptions (like the Dragon). This means that 0.01% of actual humans can channel, which is pretty close to what we’ve got in Randland.
Now suppose we take all of these 0.01% and put them in an ivory tower where they never reproduce. Are you effectively culling humanity of its channeling gene? No, because 99% of the bodies with channeling ability are continuing to reproduce normally, because they do not have a channeling soul.
This can be worked around, but not elegantly:
A) The culling theory might just be wrong.
B) Maybe channeling souls are always assigned to channeling bodies, and channeling bodies constitute 0.01% of the population. If this is true then we’re consistent with the culling theory, but we’ve lost the distinction between the soul attribute and the body attribute. The theory can be reduced to a simpler one with only an attribute for the body.
I’m not sure why the Soul attribute is necessary, to be honest – though RJ may have said so explicitly in an interview. The simplest theory would be that channeling is an ability of the body, and that key souls are consistently spun by the Wheel into channeling bodies, and that the Wheel increases or decreases the number of channelers necessary for the Age by influencing the random element in genetics (i.e. making sure the correct gene is carried over to the offspring, or creating many spontaneous mutations).
I think this is the model which RJ originally envisioned, but found the last part inelegant, as it involved too much manipulated randomness; it seemed better for channelers to be reborn as channelers (removing an element of manipulation from the Dragon’s consistent reincarnation as a channeler). And when more or fewer channelers were necessary, the wheel would simply choose the correct kind of souls for reincarnation, rather than play with genetics.
However, the genetic model could not be abandoned wholesale at this point, so what we’ve got is this hybrid model which covers most of the bases, but not all, and not perfectly.
672 & 681. Achilles189
Sorry, you seem to be suggesting that a ruler making a short-sighted, hopelessly naive decision based on wishful thinking is… unrealistic? I hate to break it to you, but in the real world this happens all the time. It’s part of the human condition, and living an extra 300 years won’t change it. Do you think politicians learn from experience? Most of the time they blame someone else and start working twice as hard to re-make the same mistake.
Also, you call the pact idiotic because it won’t last more than a few centuries. Can you bring up one international treaty which *has* lasted a few centuries? Even one century is an incredible accomplishment. If you were writing in 1942, would you brush off 70 years of peace as a failure not worth pursuing?
Regardless of whether Rand’s treaty succeeds or not, it is perfectly consistent with his character. From the beginning Rand has hated the fact that he is prophesized to destroy (e.g. his comments at the end of TSR after breaking Rhuidean) and has tried to leave some positive legacy to outlive him (e.g. his school in Cairhien). The Dragon’s Peace is merely the culmination of these well-meaning efforts.
I think the idea of this treaty sounds good in theory to you, but both within the Wheel of Time universe and reality this does not stand much chance of ever being.
The Dragon’s Peace is a kind of UN that tries to prevent war. It might not succeed forever, but it is better to have some kind of limit on war at least for some time than to let the nations fight each other as soon as the Last Battle is over.
So the counter-balefire weave of Light would destroy people of the Light as well? Come on. That makes it just as bad as balefire. If it did kill but with just less dramatic effect, why is there need to mention the point?
The difference is that balefire destroys the Pattern while the new weave repairs it.
Cyndane being stronger now than Lanfear was
Lanfear was stronger than Cyndane, not the other way around. It can be explained the same way as Moiraine’s loss of strength: the Finn ate her channeling ability.
JL @691
Yep, that’ll do.
Consider all other stories you’ve read which include magical abilities, and you’ll find virtually all of them less “explainable” than this. Most supernatural concepts can be categorized in two realms:
~Wizardry, which affects elemental aspects of nature such as fire or water
~Sorcery, which affects the spirit/mind of a target
The manner of dividing these powers into the five components of saidin and saidar within the Wheel of Time saga, is far more elegant than most tales of magic. Certainly, different story constructs can use other terminology, but the semantics isn’t the point. Few if any of those stories I can think of bothers to craft a detailed outline explaining how and why a person is capable of manipulating these paranormal forces. The Wheel of Time outclasses them all in this regard, and Jordan weaves the threads of these details masterfully in the overall structure of the story. You bring up one excellent example. While your math is solid, I posit that those who, within the story, have theorized about the culling of humanity’s ability to channel, are mistaken. Permit me to expound.
~ We learn along the way that the True Source itself is becoming either weaker, or less available to those who can channel. Aside from the loss of what is called the Standing Flows, what could once be done easily by weaker wielders of the One Power now require circles, or much stronger individuals. Whatever the cause of this phenomenon, it would naturally also obscure from detection many who might otherwise be recognized as potential channelers.
~ The insular nature of the Aes Sedai in this age puts an artificial barrier between them and almost all non-sparking potentials. Prior to Verin and Alanna visiting the Two Rivers, there is no awareness of any effort at all for Tar Valon to seek out new novices. They complain about the lack of numbers, yet organize no membership drives.
~ Distrust in the White Tower induces structures of secrecy among the channelers of more remote societies, namely the Aiel and the Sea Folk. Each group claims to identify all among themselves who have potential, and indeed each seem to have a higher percentage of channelers in their overall population.
~ All of the above so far is about female channelers. Being a saidin wielder anywhere at all is very bad for your health in almost every way imaginable. If you are in the mainland territory, the Red Ajah will actively hunt you if they learn of your existence, and any Aes Sedai will seek to capture and gentle you, for the greater good. If you are Aiel you run to the Blight and end up samma n’sei. If you are Atha’an Miere, you are ordered to commit suicide. And if Seanchan, you’re just executed. None of these situations lend themselves to men coming forward to be counted.
However, once our merry band of heroes starts impacting the world, things change in a hurry. Elayne and Nynaeve discover the Kin, comprising slightly more channelers than is believed to represent all living Aes Sedai of that time. Egwene opens the novice book to all, and the Salidar Aes Sedai begin to actively recruit along the way, gaining hundreds of new initiates. Rand’s amnesty and the Black Tower’s recruitment program finds, in less than one year, in excess of five hundred able to become Asha’man. And this is done after the White Tower had found fewer than fifty male channelers in the previous century.
It seems that the truth is, the genetic culling theorized by the White Ajah is false. Human decisions based in fear, prejudice, and corruption, coupled with global conditions which have changed across the Age, have resulted in the apparent reduction of channeling population, but it is not so. Supposedly the Creator takes no hand, but surely Heisenberg does.
I would make one alteration to your overall descriptive outline, to seal up one issue. Strength of ability seems to be mostly dependent upon the soul. Lanfear’s strength was “eaten” by the inhabitants of Sindhol, and once tansmigrated into the body called Cyndane, she remains diminished. We are given no information which suggests that either Aginor or Balthamel lost or gained strength in saidin upon being moved to Osan’gar and Aran’gar. The physical body supplies an aspect which permits access to the Source, but which normally doesn’t figure into strength of ability. The one exception we know of is that when a channeler of the same gender Heals one stilled or gentled, the restoration of that lost access is imperfect compared to one Healed by the opposite gender, as proven by Siuan, Leane, and Logain all being Healed by Nynaeve.
And I reiterate, that any manner of plausibly accounting for all of these details can be so thoroughly discussed, is a continuing testament to the remarkable creative ability of Robert Jordan.
Just would like to take a position on 3 points:
1) I have the impression that Avi has became pregnant, after the night of “You will bed me now” comment. If we fast forward to the middle part of the book, there was a short scene that mentioned “She reached for her water flask, then hesitated. She’d been drinking a lot of water lately. She rarely stopped to think about its value.”
As far as I understand, increased thirsting for water is one of the symptoms of pregnancy. Of course, I might be catching shadows here, but when I first read this scene, I have found the writing odd, but on second thoughts it may have been a clue to her pregnancy.
2) Regarding the debate about dead DO and sealed-up DO, I am thinking to write a short essay about it, but one point I would like to make here is about the nature of the Dark One. In almost the last few pages of the book, Rand describes the Dark One, “Rand felt as if he were holding not one of the primal forces of existence,but a squirming thing from the mud of the sheep pens”.
The description completely matches my prior understanding of the Dark One, that is, the Dark one is a fundamental force, not a creature, entity or being. A force, like gravitation and electromagnetism in our real world, is the one of the fundamental elements to the laws of physics. Furthermore, each force pushes the body to exhibit certain behaviors/attributes. The set of behaviors advocated by the Creator can be classified as Good and the set of behaviors advocated by the Dark One are called Evil. These two sets of behaviors are mutually-exclusive of each other.
In the WoT world, the Creator and Dark One are exactly-opposing forces that “cancels” out the direct effect a body/entity/being (i.e. the net impact to the body is zero). The body on its own is therefore “free” to move/choose which direction to go or the set of behaviors to exhibit (except those that are Turned or swore to the Dark One, or Shadowspawn whom are born by nature to exhibit only Evil behaviors). As a result, each body can exhibit pure Good behaviors, pure Evil behaviors or a mixture of both. A good example on mixed Good/Evil behaviors is Logain.
In the Last Battle, Rand was able to implausibly capture the Dark One and given the chance to kill it. In effect, Rand had the chance to extinguish one of the fundamental forces of nature (in the WoT world). If he had done so, I assert that he basically will break the laws of “physics” in his world, which will then result in a new set of laws where there is only the force of Goodness. Consequentially, this unipolar force will affect ALL living entities and push (i.e. Compel) them to exhibit behaviors advocated by Goodness. The end impact is the Stepford Elayne that was described in the book. That is also why the Dark One says that if Rand choose to kill it, it still “wins” (in effect, only Rand loses since he will then not be restore the world to the state before the Bore was drilled).
Does my explanation make sense?
3) On Rand’s pipe-lighting capability, the scene was so open-ended that logically most of the theories that were posted seem possible. However, I will choose to believe that Rand was able to demonstrate the powers of the Creator, primarily due to the two statements in the book “YOU REALLY ARE NOTHING, Rand said, knowing the Dark One’s secrets completely“ and quickly followed in a few paragraphs later “He knew all secrets“.
Even with the body-switching, Rand will still retain his knowledge of ALL secrets (unless he has total memory loss with his episode with the Dark One). If he knew ALL secrets including the Dark One, why not also of that of the Creator? Since the Creator’s purpose is to create, a simple lighting of the pipe, even if it was termed impossible, will be possible.
692.birgit
Thanks for the correction, Birgit, I had gotten Cyndane and Lanfear backwards.
However, if we are following Freelancer’s formulation, Cyndane’s loss of strength cannot be explained the same way as Moiraine’s, since the strength is an attribute of the body, not the soul. Lanfear was weakened as the Finns feasted on her, and died; her new body happens to be weaker than Lanfear’s original in its prime, but might be stronger or weaker than Lanfear’s at the moment of her death.
“I’m not sure why the Soul attribute is necessary, to be honest – though RJ may have said so explicitly in an interview. The simplest theory would be that channeling is an ability of the body, and that key souls are consistently spun by the Wheel into channeling bodies, and that the Wheel increases or decreases the number of channelers necessary for the Age by influencing the random element in genetics (i.e. making sure the correct gene is carried over to the offspring, or creating many spontaneous mutations).”
Maybe a channeller soul in a channeller body is someone born with the spark and a channeller body without a special channeller soul is someone who can learn?
Freelancer @493:
Well, considering the source – wasn’t Alviarin the huge proponent of the culling theory? I always thought that it was false. After all, sparkers constitute only a small minority of all potential channelers, so gentling/killing of male sparkers arcross the world should have had a minimal effect on the frequency of channeling ability in the population. Not to mention that since the men spark later, they’d still often manage to procreate, no? It may have reduced the number of sparkers, though, assuming that it is also genetic.
As an aside – were Samma’ an Sei always living in the Blight town, eating awful food and killing each other and other inhabitants? Because I can’t imagine them staying there when Ishamael wasn’t around to force them to. I mean, evil people are supposed to be about selfishness and self-aggrandizement, right? And from what we have seen in the early books the world should have seemed a trained male channeler’s oyster.
And also – why weren’t female channelers born there used for something? Or… is it how Ishamael created the BA and kept it going?
Also, Alviarin’s plan seemed very much like the Blight breeding program, yet she seemed completely unaware of it. Hm….
Anyway, I think that while the Aes Sedai and the Kin not having children during the later 3rd Age and surviving wilders mostly ditto, may have resulted in a certain amount of culling, most of it happened during the Breaking.
Consider – vast majority of people capable of channeling were trained and then all the men went mad and most women died containing them. That, on top of a rather destructive 10-year-long war. Now _that’s_ some serious culling right there, I’d say.
Re: OP being less accessible in the Third Age, I never saw any indication of it. I always thought that the Standing Flows were results of OP engineering and powered ter’angreal for the use of non-channeling public.
Not really up for getting involved in the discussion at this point but I still had to comment. I finally finished last night (kids aged 1 and 3 plus full-time work I can’t read a book like this in a day like I used to). So glad to be able to come here to read your review. My husband thought I was nuts when I stepped away from the book punching the air in sadness or anger at some event or another. I am already looking forward to the reread!
I wish I could press “like” on comments above. I love the community interaction and personal reveals, appreciate clarifications…looking forward to the re-read!
This series has been amazing for me, from start to finish.
Huaixiong @694
On Aviendha, it could be an indicator toward her “condition”, but it could also be nothing more than a reminder that water had previously been extremely precious to her, and now she notices that she hasn’t been careful regarding how much she uses.
On the Dark One, I believe you have the idea properly described.
JonathanLevy @695
See the ending of my comment @693. Strength in the power is of the soul, but the body provides the pipeline to the Power, and a same-gender Healing after gentling/stilling doesn’t repair the broken pipe completely. Those two taken together should fit all of the events represented in the story.
Isilel @697
Whatever the precipitate reasoning, the supposition of culling has been proven false, that was the point there, whether the concept was introduced by a malicious agent or no.
On the samma n’sei, being Aiel, they would be easy to manipulate into treating their gathering as a sept or society, so it is not inconceivable to keep them well in check. We don’t know enough to proceed further in that vein in any case.
What happened during and concluding the Breaking is not the culling of which “current day” Aes Sedai speak. When the subject is being discussed, it is spoken of as much more recent history, within the last number of centuries, not three millenia.
iavasechui@696–
“Maybe a channeller soul in a channeller body is someone born with the spark and a channeller body without a special channeller soul is someone who can learn?”
A good idea, but I’m inclined to think the opposite is true. To my mind, the soul is the main agent of life in the WoTverse (as some might see it in Ourverse, too), with the body as merely a temporary resting place; the soul ought to be where innate characteristics reside, and the body is what allows or impedes those characteristics from manifesting. I think when a channeler-soul ends up in a channeling-ready body, it’s like, I don’t know, everything lines up, and channeling happens. When a channeler-soul ends up in a non-channeling-ready body, the soul’s ability can be made to ‘bore through’ eventually, creating a ‘channel’ from the Source into the world that can be manipulated, like those born channeling-ready can all do without the extra prep-time. Any of this make sense?
Which sounds weirdly similar to what happened when the DO was freed into the world through the Bore.
I very much liked the book – and being so late to the discussion I will refrain from listing everything I liked – nor the few things which I might want to criticize (eg too much battle scenes).
I’ve only managed to read upto comment 240 so far, so sorry if everything has been said…
@89. blindillusion, RE stepping in out of TAR due to soul-merging
“If it takes the combination of two souls … whose soul did Perrin acquire?”
– I think this is his combination/acceptance of being both a (hu)man and a wolfbrother (Young Bull)
AnthonyPero @133 Re Mat’s disconnection from the horn:
you could argue that Mat died, which broke his connection to the horn, balefire undid the death but time passes differently in TAR where the heroes and the “connection” is “stored”, so the balefire didn’t reach back long enough in TAR.
As well as some others (including Freelancer), I’m happy with Mat’s quick disposal of Fain. The light side had no defense against Mashdar, to prolongue it’s slaughter wouldn’t have been nice to read. Besides Fain was always mostly set against Rand, so there doesn’t need to be a prolonged struggle between Mat and Fain.
I didn’t realize it myself but Dobraine really was missing…
Moghediens fate: I wished the dragon had killed her instead of being captured: I believe that the “damane-system” will end some day. The common Seanchan soldiers fought alongside Aes Sedai, they have seen that not every free channeler is an animal, which gives a basis for change (with Mats help in the process). But then she could be set free …
And finally the end:
I find it beautiful (I’m all for happy endings in a fantasy series, if I’d want reality I could watch tv news), it’s good that we might dream the future for Rand as we wish it (giving him a happy ever after for me, and more reality and struggle for other readers…)
But I am a little sad that Rand rides away thinking about seeing the world, not mentioning the Two Rivers, when it was so an important for him to go back home in EotW before he knew he could channel and might harm it… but he has grown and I can accept that.
travyl @702
I wouldn’t worry that Rand would ignore the Two Rivers. But I would want him not to go there for some time. How awkward to see people you know and care about, but not able to tell them who you are, because you would then have to explain why you are alive, and why you look so different.
Let him have a season of complete anonymity. Dude has been on overtime for two years, he’s due a quiet vaca.
Freelancer@688
You are, of course, 100% correct that the existence of the DO was unknown pre-bore. However we also have it from the Strike at Shayol Ghul that a previously unknown source of power had been sensed. The researchers even knew enough to state that this unknown power could be used by either male or female (i.e. no saidin-saidar split.) Surely if they knew they were boring toward the DO, they would never have considered doing it!
From this I conclude that the DO’s prison must have had some sort of permeability – at least enough that the TP could be sensed. From the circular cosmology argument, this was the way that the Creator had originally designed the prison.
We also know from the existence of the binding rods that evil was not unknown in the AoL, even if it was rare. It’s an open question whether what I’m calling the “permeability” of the DO’s prison allowed him to touch the world ever so faintly and brush it with a touch of evil (thus potentially being the source of all evil) or whether evil is an independent concept and the DO merely a supremely evil being that was not able to affect the world at that time. (i.e. whatever evil existed pre-bore was independent of the DO.)
I would tend toward the latter for a couple of reasons. The first is that we are presented Mordeth/Shadar Logoth as an example of an evil fully independent from (and in opposition to) the DO. The second is that if RJ’s cosmology posits the need for free will and choosing the good (per Rand’s failed “DO-less” world), then at least some evil is a purely moral choice – not the product of an independent evil mind.
Bah! I was trying to wait until the reread (as you indicated you would) and I can already see this going into many directions!
693.Freelancer
700.Freelancer
Ok, moving the ‘strength’ attribute tidies things up a bit:
– Explains Aran’gar and Osan’gar not commenting on their new strength.
– Explains why Rand is as strong as Lews Therin was without requiring manipulated chance.
– The decreasing strength of the average Aes Sedai over the 3rd age is because the Wheel is spinning out weaker souls in accordance with the pattern of the age, and not by manipulating genetics.
Downsides:
– *Finns are now presumed to be able to damage the soul in order to reduce channeling strength. Not unreasonable to assume they have this ability. However, it implies that the loss of strength will be carried forwards to the next reincarnation, unless we postulate some sort of reset mechanism which takes effect upon reincarnation, but not on transmigration.
– When a stilled females is healed by Saidar, her body now affects her strength, whereas previously it didn’t. But this is not a serious objection – any number of home-water-system-replacement-pipe analogies will dispel it.
Taken together, I think it’s a modest improvement on what I tried to formulate @@@@@ 691 from your previous post.
As for the possible falsity of the culling theory – it could certainly be wrong. However, I’m not sure if the reasons you listed @@@@@693 are sufficient.
1) I don’t think the True Source itself is becoming weaker – the phenomena you listed are easily explained by the gradually declining strength of the average Aes Sedai, and their increasing ignorance, requiring them to achieve by force what they once did by skill. Healing is a good example – the Forsaken hold them in contempt because they only use Water, Spirit and Air, and extract a lot of strength from their patients. As for the Standing Flows, I agree with Isilel @@@@@ 697 – it’s like the modern electrical grid.
2) The rest of your points can be summarized by saying that the White Tower has greatly reduced its catchment area for potential recruits, and this is of course quite correct. However, these are not new policies, and all this was equally true 2,000 or 1,000 years ago; this means that over a very long time, over the same catchment area, the number of recruits has been steadily declining. Something else is at play here.
There might be a very simple explanation – the overall population of Randland is also declining. We have strong evidence of this (e.g. the maps scene when the Ogier mark out the Waygates). Perhaps it’s just a matter of having a reduced population base for recruitment? If so, it’s strange that none of the Aes Sedai remark on this explanation.
I also agree with you that few other series have such a well-developed magical system. But I also think that the little ambiguities have their advantage. Once the reader is exposed to the full-fledged magical system in TGH and TDR, it loses a bit of its mystery, but not quite all of it. Jordan made sure to drop in all sorts of little unexpected things just to keep the characters (and readers) on their toes, and show that there’s so much more out there that the Aes Sedai don’t know.
Examples – funniness of Saidar/Saidin around Ebou Dar after the Bowl is used, involuntary circles, unravelling weaves, Pevara channeling Saidar while in a circle with someone else in control.
694.huaixiong
Thanks to the Wayforward visions, we can expect that some of Aviendha’s children have dark hair ‘from their Wetlander side’.
If she has quadruplets in the traditional way, then we’ve got a problem
– if she got pregnant when you say she did, then there are no candidates to supply the dark-haired genes. This means that she has to get pregnant later – but soon enough that she will be able to plausibly claim that they are Rand’s.
There’s another theory (not quite loony) suggesting that the so-called quadruplets are actually a pair of twins, from Min and Aviendha, and Min’s children are brought up as Aviendha’s. If so, then it’s possible that Aviendha is pregnant with Aiel-like twins, and Min will soon get pregnant with Wetlander-like twins.
The ending of AMoL actually provides a good reason for Min to pass her children on to Aviendha (originally her death in childbirth had been postulated) – if she’s with the Seanchan, and her children can channel at birth, it’s a no-brainer.
@705. JonathanLevy
“- if she got pregnant when you say she did, then there are no candidates to supply the dark-haired genes.”
Oh, I did not consider that aspect. If we consider this as well, there are two possibilities. One is that Rand’s mother Tigraine has dark hair and the dark-hair genes were passed down by the children’s grandmother (I don’t have reference to earlier books so I cannot check).
Another possibility will then be that Avi got pregnant by Rand after the Last Battle, which Rand is now in Moridin’s body (I checked reference on Moridin’s physical appearance and he has dark hair). This may be a good answer to why Min finds Avi’s quads to be odd – the babies may inherit Rand’s personality and channeling abilities, while at the same time also inherit some physical appearance of Moridin’s body including the hair. Now, how this can be done I have no idea, but truly such a combo should qualify as odd! In addition, if this latter possibility is true, by implication, it will mean that Rand will at least be reunited with Avi post book 14.
But, the way-forward visions does also provide some contradiction. In the vision, Avi’s 4 children were about 20 years after the Last Battle, and in one of the conversations Rhurac’s son describe how he and his father sees Rand. The vision strongly implied that Rand died after winning the Last Battle. If this is the case, Rand would need to father the quads before the Last Battle (he can’t do it dead, can he?).
Of course, there is still the possibility that Rand “died” and lived on through the body-switching with Moridin and then got reunited with Avi later and she got pregnant. However, unless the reunion occurs within a matter of weeks (say 2-3 months), Avi will find it hard to explain her pregnancy. Remember, in our real world, multiple births usually do not come to full-term, the higher the order of multiples, the earlier the birth too. The timing needs to be really good to fit!
Forkroot @705:
The first is that we are presented Mordeth/Shadar Logoth as an example of an evil fully independent from (and in opposition to) the DO.
how is it independent? It evolved in response to the DO’s evil, i.e. was caused by the DO. Also, being a murdering, soul-devouring mist it hardly can be called “human” evil. I always wondered if the Finn weren’t involved somehow in it’s creation.
Freelancer @693:
It would be a very depressing world indeed if strength in OP was an unchangeable quality of the soul. Not too mention that it would mean that Moiraine is hosed for all time, ouch!
Too much is already set in stone: gender, being a non-channeler, who gets to be the dragon… It almost becomes a caste society where certain souls are destined to be superior in all eternity. This would leave a really bad taste in my mouth.
Also, let’s not forget that transmigrated Forsaken retain not just their OP strength, but _all_ their talents and abilities, including their personality, memory and intellect. Would that mean that intellect is an unchangeable attribute of the soul, too?
Personally, I prefer to think that transmigration is a very special case, where existing personality with all it’s qualities and talents, completely dominates the body. Or maybe that the DO is able to change physical attributes of a body to accomodate a specific soul. After all, we now know for sure that there was no lack of male channeling bodies to transmigrate A’rangar into…
But in case of normal re-birth, I’d prefer to think that the strength in OP is determined by the body and is normally up to chance.
Yes, the Pattern would need to set up the things just so get the Dragon, but then, it already micromanaged the things pretty thoroughly, with Rand being born at specific place to specific parents, being raised by the “ancient blood”, growing up with the other superboys and Egwene, getting attached to those 3 specific women, that all these people have required abilities…. ensuring that his genetic make-up would allow for necessary OP strength would be simple and straightforward by comparison.
Jonathan Levy@705:
But Aviendha’s vision was changed! It is no longer _the_ future, if it ever was and her becoming pregnant from original Rand may be part of it.
Also, if Morirand had been the father of Avi’s children in that vision, wouldn’t it mean that both the kids themselves and the Aiel knew about the body-switch? How else can dark hair coming from wetlander side be explained?
And, of course, another problem with the vision is – if Rand had survived in the same manner, how did he and his harem allow all that horror to happen? Was it a future where all his 3 women abandoned their duties and followed him into obscurity? And in case of Elayne and Avi… what? Remained in obscurity until the Seanchan collared/killed them, watching their peoples and their descendants come to ruin?!! Too bad that Avi didn’t tell the other girls about her vision, because it seems to strongly imply that they should stay where they are.
Re: the White Tower recruitment – it seems that the AS at the time of the Second Convenant may have had children, what with some of them being queens and such. In fact, AS remaining childless may have reulted from Hawkwing putting price on their heads – it is easy to imagine that those who had families were particularly vulnerable and were predominantly killed off.
Ditto stream of hopefuls diminishing when the WT reputation took the plunge and there weren’t many sisters openly moving around and available for testing of potential commoner recruits.
706.huaixiong
We know for a fact that Tigraine is blonde (TSR:34) “One day we saw a woman, a golden-haired young wetlander, in silks…”. This limits the possibilities :)
Or he needs people to think that. It’s true that there’s just a few weeks or months to get the timing right, but it’s not far-fetched by any means.
707.Isilel
But some things are known to be true from Min’s visions – Aviendha will “have four of them” at once, and something will be odd about them, and they will be healthy.
Most of the Aiel don’t know that Rand has red/yellow hair on both sides going at least one generation back, so they just assume it’s from Rand’s wetlander side by default After all, what other explanation could there be?
Of course, if anyone of them happens to browse through a book with the genealogies of all the Great Houses, and the colors of their hair, he might be able to work out that there’s a problem, but then Lysa will slip some Tears of Lys into his wine and – oh wait that’s another series.
Yes, but those problems existed even before Aviendha started to make changes in the visions, so there must be some reasonable resolution for them, since we’re certain that the wayforward horrors were a future not only possible, but likely – if no changes were made.
Yeah, but even if we don’t go backwards beyond Hawkwing, that still gives 1,000 years of diminishing recruitment, which is enough to require some sort of explanation.
Also – Morirand – I like it :)
Freelancer@703
“I wouldn’t worry that Rand would ignore the Two Rivers. But I would want him not to go there for some time. How awkward to see people you know and care about, but not able to tell them who you are, because you would then have to explain why you are alive, and why you look so different.”
I guess Rand (Morirand, as some have called him) would have an easier time in the Two Rivers if he meets up with Mat and goes over his backstory first.
Because of course, Mat’s backstories are always the best.
Hmm, I suppose that Morirand is marginally better than Randidan. Though in a way, the latter more descriptive of one with three ladies on the hook. ::insert rimshot here::
Hmm. I’d been thinking Randin… or Randidin, but that’s more typing.
UGH, those are horrible names
I vote for Dival Haran, the Hand of Light.
huaixiong @706:
a) As pointed out by JonathanLevy @708, Tigraine was blonde.
b) Although the genetics of hair color are not fully understood, dark hair is generally dominant over light hair, so (barring spontaneous mutation) it’s extremely unlikely Rand’s old body and Aviendha could produce not just one, but two dark-haired kids.
Also, a slight nitpick to JonathanLevy @708: the actual quote in WH does not say that the babies will be odd. The grammatical construction clearly indicates that the thing that is odd is that there will be four of them at once, not that the babies themselves will be somehow odd. It’s possible that RJ chose the wrong words, but as written, Min’s vision didn’t imply anything odd about the babies.
I’m the main proponent on these boards of the Aviendha/Min double-twins thing, and (barring information in the Encyclopedia) it will probably never be settled. But prior to AMoL, the only piece of information in favor of the quadruplets-by-Aviendha theory is Min’s vision (which, to be fair, is pretty compelling evidence), while there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence favoring the double-twins theory. The double-twins theory is admittedly weakened by Rand ending up in Moridin’s body (which I didn’t expect), but I still think it’s viable. We’ll see (or not).
I’ll ask about Aviendha’s babies at the signing, too.
Ranishydin
or
Randishydin
Thanks,
@714. bad_platypus and @708. JonathanLevy
I agree that the Tigraine case is now closed. However, if I have to choose between the Morirand and doube-twins theory (although I still foolishly and secretly hope that Rand fathered the quad before the Last Battle), I would put my full bet on the former.
Let’s revisit the quote:
“Aviendha would have Rand’s babies too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.”
From the way the first two sentence was constructed, the only possible interpretation would be that Avi would have four of Rand’s babies at once. The subject was clearly talking only about Avi, and the “at once” phrase narrows down the possibility that all the 4 babies would be born at the same time. So the only conclusion I can garner is that Avi will give birth to the 4 babies herself.
Second, I have to respectfully disagree with @714 about the sentence construction. To me, the subject referred to by the last 3 sentences are clearly about the 4 babies, not about having quads. Giving birth to quads, while rare, is still a natural occurence, so there should be nothing odd about it. Furthermore, in the real world when a doctor says something is wrong/odd about an unborn child, he almost invariably refers to its health (e.g. physical deformities, diseases etc.) but Min had also immediately clarified that the odd thing about the babies was not about their health.
If we combine the two “conclusions” – the babies are borne by Avi in one sitting, and that the odd comment is not about having quads, then we could effectively debunk the double-twin theory.
I agree with huaixiong. The statement that something is odd about that is after the unqualified statement of there being four at once. If the number of them was the oddity, it would read:
It is not presented that way. The oddity is absolutely unrelated to the quantity of children involved. I’d thought that this was pretty well settled that their ability to channel very young, with no “danger” period, was the oddity.
Also, the children are from a half-Aiel, half-Andoran father. Rand’s body all the way.
Good points, huaixiong@717, and Freelancer@718.
I think the prophesy clearly points out that Avi will have all 4 babes, and that something will be odd about them. Whether that means they:
1.channel from birth,
2.or that they are Rands via a different body,
3.or that 2 of them have the Aiel characteristics of Avi, and the other two the darker characteristics of Moridans body,
4.or all three differences,
is up for discussion. I doubt we will ever really know, unless the encyclopedia explains that. (Doubtful)
So I vote for Avi getting pregnant post LB, while Rand is in Moridans body. I do think the girls can find him at any time with their bond, and they can Travel to him. Perhaps Avi and Elayne will come and go, as they have other duties and alligences, and perhaps Min will stay with Randidan more permanently, as Mat (with the Seanchan) certainly knows that she’s Rands main squeeze.
I choose to fantasize that Rand will reveal himself to Mat and Perrin and Tam, at some point, or he will be a pretty lonely guy, and he longs for a life of normalcy. He will certainly be able to recount events to them, to let them know who he truly is. I see him in the Two Rivers, after his vacation. ;-)
Also….I see Randidan living a normal lifespan now that he is no longer a channeler. Or perhaps his new Oneness with the Pattern will sustain him in the same way. Thoughts everyone?
Hey Tek,
I can’t contain myself anymore- it’s Moridin! Unless you have a specific reason to spell it with an a, which I haven’t understood. It’s bugging me like a dripping tap… Hm, I’m starting to analogize like Brandon ;)
ValMar@720: Sorry about that. You know, I used to be a good speller. Oh well…any other bloopers?
Given how everything immediately springs to life around Rand, my money says that Avienda became pregnant the night before the Last Battle. And quadruplets? Seems completely probable for the same reason. Elayne is having twins, and the Dragon wasn’t fully “one with the land” at that point.
Tektonica @719:
Well, Min used the word “that” not “them”, so it remains an open question whether the kids themselves are guaranteed to be odd in some way. I’d say live and healthy quarduplets would be odd enough by themselves and could fulfill the oddness of “that”, but there are certainly other possibilities.
Also, Min’s position is now at least equally important to those of other 2 if Rand’s eventual progeny is to remain uncollared, so I don’t know about her settling down with Rand permanently, in the next decade at least.
If Moridin was an Aes Sedai in the AOL where has his body been kept during the entire time Ishy was out wreaking havoc? Was he on ice somewhere?
Tek @@@@@ 721
…any other bloopers? I hope you aren’t asking me :) Though I noticed the Moridan thing some time ago. Since you were so persisent with it and no one was correcting you I even checked that the right spelling was really Moridin. Almost made me doubt my own sanity woman!
Isilel @@@@@ 723
Yeah, I’ve noticed in much of the speculation about the future how casually Min’s current role with Tuon is disregarded. But then again, Tuon looks like the easy-going type.
I think Min was left in her immensely powerful position with the Seanchan to give the readers additional hope for the future.
Isilel @@@@@ 723
Perhaps, because it was quads, Avi had to embrace the source during delivery and that caused the babies to be born ready to channel and that was what was wrong about it.
Or, after reading Brandons’ Twit Chat, maybe it doesn’t mean spit.
As for Min……
Maybe she’ll stay in her Seanchan position, which would indeed give the Randlandians cause to hope. Since she is the Truthspeaker, she can tell Fortuona just what she thinks about the whole collaring thing, as time goes by.
But there she was at Rands’ funeral at Shayol Ghul. Perhaps she will come and go from the Empress’ Palace and service. I just can’t see Min, of all people, putting up with all that crazy pomp and rules. I think Mat will see that she’s taken care of, no matter what, being an honorable Prince of Ravens.
Is anyone doing a reread yet? I’m amazed at all the foreshadowing I’m discovering in this reread. I wonder when Leigh will start the Official Reread? Anyone know?
thepupxpert @724 – Moridin wasn’t an Aes Sedai in the AOL. Moridin is Ishamael’s new-name-for-a-new-body – but the new body belonged to some hapless soul from the 3rd Age who got bodysnatched. Same deal as Lanfear/Cyndane, Aginor/Dashiva, Balthamel/Halima.
Tektonica @727: Leigh just responded on the ReRead Facebooks that February 5th is when the reread shall continue, barring disaster. Yay!
Ok. Ok.
Ok.
SO!
I tried to scan through a bunch of the already-posted comments, but I got through about 200 or so and gave up. You guys! You’re so…prolific!
I finished the audio book a few days ago. I needed a couple days to process, because seriously. So much happened!! So, here are my thoughts, many of which are similar (I’m sure) to what many of you have already shared.
1. EGWENE. And BELA. I think I literally wailed aloud in my house NOOOOOO at both of their deaths! Heart wrenching, gut wrenching…pretty much any body part that could be wrenched, were wrenched horribly. Then again, I am fond of horses, and will admit to having a touch of Ooh Ooh Girl in me. I will say that those of you who were staunchly in the “I Dislike/Hate/Don’t Care For Egwene” camp who had a similar reaction made me feel all sorts of warm fuzzies, and also tells me just how well written those passages were. Because we read these books to feel things! And how powerful can a collection of words be to make you feel sorrow at the passing of someone you didn’t even like? True, I think many of us feel very close to these characters, whether or not we liked them. But still! YAY Team Jordan!
2. Matt’s Balefire-induced reincarnation allowing Olver to blow the Horn? BRILLIANT. I did NOT see that coming AT ALL. I love it when an author can be sneaky like that, without having to resort to trickery and cause multiple retcons to pull the wool over the readers eyes until the very last minute and then TADA FOOLED YA LOOK HERE’S SOME AWESOMENESS!! That was just fabulous. And speaking of sneakiness and Matrim Cauthon, I nearly fell out my chair laughing at the Hinderstrap mob of undying villagers storming out of the gateway while Grady is dumbstruck. Mat, you sneaky little bastard, that was effing BRILLIANT!!! I think I *may* have run around my room cheering and whooping for a moment. Just a moment. Maybe.
3. I did enjoy Mat and Tuon’s relationship, especially from Mat’s point of view. I did think Mat’s persona as done by BWS was pretty close to RJ’s…not *quite* right perhaps, but close enough that it didn’t bother me. And completely, absolutely hilarious. The only part that came close to that hilarity for me was the banter between Elayne and Birgitte after she returned as a HotH and pulled out some long overdue, majorly whuppy WHUP ASS on that tool Mellar. Good riddance! And Yay for making an awesome entrance and killing the guy who just beheaded you! The one-upping between Mat and Rand when they finally meet again felt a *teensy* contrived to me, but I decided to enjoy it anyway. Perhaps it was just so long in coming, that anything would feel wierd. Like when you run into a friend that you don’t talk to anymore after years of craziness (or you know, a year and a half or so), and it’s kinda awkward? Like that.
4. Bao the Wyld wins the prize from me for worst name ever. Seriously? Knotai didn’t bother me nearly as much!
5. I’m totally convinced that Egwene and Gawyn are Eldrene and Aemon. My knowledge of the details are quite a bit fuzzy…Does we know if Heroes are spun out again looking exactly the same? Did Egwene specifically encounter the HotH at Falme, or were they just in the same place at the same time, and therefore never had a chance to recognize her with their super HotH sight? Were they mentioned as returning during the Last Battle when Olver blew the horn? The similarities are striking…
6. Never piss off an Ogier.
7. I agree with a lot of the comments about ShaiSam – It felt very much like Oh crap I forgot I have to deal with Padan Fain lemme just kill him off real quick-like. I’m sure that was not anywhere near the thinking, but it came across that way on reading it…Perhaps it was intentional? Would there be any reason for that?
8. I do think Pevara and Androl are going to be the mold that the Black and White Towers follow in the future. At least I HOPE they are. Otherwise… Dammit. Dammit Egwene!
9. Open gateway. BOOM!!!! Close gateway. har har har
10. I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY WANTED TO SEE TUON AND HAWKWING CHAT DAMMIT AAAAAHHH NO SERIOUSLY I REALLY REALLY DO! STILL!!!
That’s about all I got for now. Can’t wait for the Official Leigh Reread to continue next month so we can dive on in and get all nitpicky. I really feel bad for Leigh recapping all that battle tho. Damn. Da-Yum. There’s a whole lotta dead trollocs gonna be flung around Tor.com soon…
Oh and btw I’m all official and registered and stuff and have a real name I’m gonna stick with! Just in time for…the end. Ah well. :)
Done, a few days back – but haven’t had a chance to visit here since. Better late than never?
My thoughts? It was worth the wait (over 15 years, in my case). I will comment more (I hope) in the re-read (I hope that is still on the cards?) but some impressions:
On the deaths: Having long been irritated by the invulnerability of all the major lightsiders, I was relieved to see a few deaths. By RJ’s standards, quite a few deaths. And some, even though very brief, hurt. Davram/Deira, Hurin, Karldin, Enaila, all in a page. Damn. Egwene (ow, that one hurt). Gawyn (not so much). Romanda. Siuan (another which hurt) and Gareth. Tenobia. Alsalam. Rhuarc (ouch!). Bela. Nalaam. Still, if George Martin had been writing this it would have been Ragnarok – with luck a couple of lightsiders would survive (probably short a hand or two) – so I’ll settle for this much.
(I kind of wish Faile or Elayne had died instead of Egwene though. Though at least she died with *way* more style than Elayne was on the verge of managing…)
On the battle at SG: Interesting. Not how I had expected it to go, but quite satisfying nonetheless, especially as there was enough blood and gore on the other battlegrounds anyway; an intellectual confrontation was a bonus here.
On things I missed: Would have liked to know more about what some people were doing. For example Alivia, Talaan (and even Theodrin/Faolain) barely got mentioned during the last battle despite being two of the most powerful lightsiders. And some others (Metaara, Bode Cauthon and perhaps the most powerful of them all, Sharina) didn’t get mentioned at all. I guess Bode and Sharina went with the healers to Mayene as they were still novices? Seems a waste though. Oh well, maybe Sharina will becomes advisor to the Malkieri queen. One can hope.
Also, so many people just couldn’t be fit into this. Suffa, Dobraine…
On individual characters:
Egwene: Ooh ooh girl rocked till the end. New weaves, battle ajah leader, keeper of the seals. If it hadn’t been for her wool-headed warder dying she might have gone even further. But good on her – it was time someone tamed Taim. And we needed one death which hurt really really badly (besides Bela, that is!)
Demandred: Well, at least we found that the forsaken weren’t all a bunch of useless infighting wimps. Finally, a villain with teeth! If he hadn’t been so fixated on Rand I think Demandred might have been the nae’blis. And he managed to beat Galad in a swordfight. Impressive. But….”Bao the Wyld”? Whoever came up with that name was not at his most inspired. It’s maybe kinda better than Knotai. Maybe.
Mat: Like Egwene, he was mostly made of awesome. Loved his match with Rand “I saved Moiraine, Beat that. Yah!”
Perrin: Sleeping, with wolves. Pretty much like his enitre story through the last 6 books, with less emo. But his two dreamspike moments (saving the White Tower and the Black) and his four “being there for Rand” moments (Dumai’s wells, Dragonmount, Slayer’s arrow and Lanfear) give him a pass in my book. You done good, wolfbrother.
Loial: So awesome. I want to cuddle him. Ditto: Olver.
Elayne: Can I just smack her alongside her head? She was boring and almost got killed. She _did_ get Birgitte killed.
Tuon: Also could do with a mild smack. Keep your hands off Min, willya?
Aviendha: Earned much ji. ’nuff said.
Min: Seems like her study of Callandor paid off. Rest easy, Herid Fel.
Androl: Managed to do more BAMF stuff in one book than most folks managed in 14. Dude is going to be someone to watch out or in the Age to come. This I foretell.
Nynaeve and Moiraine. Wished they had more of a role to play, they were among my favourite female characters in the series and was looking forward to seeing them in action (M esp). At least they survived. Will imagine good stuff for them in the future.
Fain: The denouement felt too rushed. But as someone pointed out, if the biggest crib you have in a 900 page book is “it should have been longer” then ’twas probably a job well done.
Cads: She survived. Did not see that coming. But I have never been a Cads-hater much, and anyway she’s getting her punishment. Amyrlin Seat FTW!
Lan: I saved him for last. What to say about Lan? He was the character I loved from the very first book. He was part of some of the most awesome moments – breaking Nynaeve’s block, the ride across the borderlands to Tarwin’s gap, teaching Rand swordsmanship and philosphy…The Lan-Demandred scene alone already paid the price for admission, for me.
He gave us some of the best lines in the series: “I will hate the man you choose because he is not me, and love him if he makes you smile” and “you surrender when you’re dead” and one of the simplest philosophies “death is lighter than a feather”. And he lived up to that. It wasn’t just words for him. 14 books later, he is still the character I admire the most. In a world of super-powerful channelers, ta’veren, forsaken and random powers, he still more than held his own and stuck to his principles.
I hope that he will return as a hero of the horn in ages to come. But I hope he gets to live a good long life as King of Malkier first. He’s earned it. Tai’shar Malkier.
~lakesidey
A separate post of thanks:
To Martin and Thomas, who introduced me to the series lo, these 15 years ago. It wasn’t right at the beginning, but it was a beginning…
To all the wonderful people on this forum whose comments enabled me to enjoy these books at a depth and a level of richness that I could never have imagined….
To Leigh, for the immense effort put into the re-read and putting up with all of us occasionally rowdy squabblers in the comments…. (Leigh, I hope you are going to do your usual re-read. I am really really interested to see whether you do chapter 37 alone or in tandem with another chapter)
To Michael Whelan, for adding an extra dose of awesome to aMoL (and to Darrell Sweet, who I didn’t appreciate half so well as he deserved)
To Harriet (and the whole of team Jordan), for following through with RJ’s wishes, and making sure they were carried out meticulously.
To Brandon, for taking on an incredibly daunting job (seriously, he must have aged ten years worrying about this – whatever he did it was always a losing throw of the dice!) and not dropping the ball. I had lost hope of ever knowing how this would end but….
And to Robert Jordan, of course. For all the memories of Light.
~lakesidey
al’Lan Mandragoran was always awesome, in almost every way. But with respect, he must take second place to the most admirable character in this story. The one without whom Rand could have done nothing, most of all survive. In my book, Lan helped to polish what had already been carefully and lovingly crafted, enabling the Dragon to win. Would Rand have accepted that mountain of which Lan spoke, had he not already understood duty? Would Rand, or the entire world, have made it past Dragonmount if he didn’t understand love, repentance and forgiveness, if he didn’t discover his why? The one who, unphased, named Cadsuane a bully while literally in her hands. And the one person whom, unless I am mistaken, we actually witness Lan salute.
Tamlin al’Thor. Is. The. Man
Tai’shar Manetheren!
Freelancer@733
I couldn’t agree more. Tam al’Thor FTW!
Lakesidey @731 said: “Elayne: Can I just smack her alongside her head? She was boring and almost got killed. She _did_ get Birgitte killed.”
Throughout the series, Elayne has taken more than her share of dumb risks. However, the scene where Mellar killed Brigitte and almost cut out Elyane’s twins was not one of them. She is the commander of the Light’s armies. At this time, she was not on the front lines. She was surrounded by her guards and her Warder. Mellar and his fellow Darkfriends impersonated refugess who were caring for the wounded and gathering arrows. Elayne’s guards (and she herself) had no reason to give Mellar and his men a second glance.
Blame Elayne for many things. However, this was not one of them. Furthermore, IMO, I do not think that Elayne took any unnecessary risks in AMoL. (Although I will acknowledge that this opinion may be slightly influenced by the fact that she is one of my 3 favorite characters in WoT.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
If there is one major thing I loved to see addressed in this book, it was Mat’s whole attitude towards Rand for the past several books. As a supposed friend, it really pissed me off that Mat only assumed the worst of Rand, and it was more than satisfying to see him get chewed out over it by one of the heroes of the Horn.
Also, regarding Taim, it was more than fitting to someone as arrogant as he is that it was one of the weakest male channelers who both unraveled his plans at the Black Tower and drove him out. You would think Taim would have learned from that at the Last Battle.
714.bad_platypus
Not a nitpick at all, platypus, but a necessary correction, as the subsequent conversation makes clear.
Lakesidy: Nice summary!
And for all of you who haven’t braved all the comments….
Leigh said that she would be starting her reread on Feb. 5th! Yippee!!
Freelancer @671: I don’t see anywhere in the story where a Healing impacts the soul itself, only the physical nature of the person.
What about when Nynaeve Heals Naeff’s madness?
As far as Rand lighting the pipe at the end, I think he must have transcended having to channel. On a related note, how do we know Aviendha’s children were conceived pre-Last Battle? Maybe Rand’s ability is the “something odd” and results in the children’s ability to channel from birth.
Finally got some time today to make some comments that have been percolating for a week or two. Because I’m incapable of brevity – sorry! – I’ll separate my Walls of Text by subject. That way you can skip to the next topic if the current comment’s uninteresting.
So – upcoming comments on the following subjects: 1. Characterization in AMOL. 2. A defense of the use of Moiraine. 3. Aes Sedai competence. (Really!) 4. The Shadow’s competence. 5. Saving the World!
So – characterization in AMOL. One of the recurring comments I’ve seen is that folks would have preferred less emphasis on the battles and more on characterization. I don’t see this at all.
A recurring rebuttal I’ve noticed is “of course there’s an emphasis on battles, it’s the Last Battle!” And many have pointed out the great job Brandon did with things like showing tactics, and describing the ebb and flow of battles, and especially helping us feel some visceral exhaustion ourselves, even as the characters were feeling. (Ironically, before the book, many of us wondered if Brandon would get the battles down, lacking the firsthand combat experience RJ had.)
I think we can agree that Brandon got the battles down very well – and that this *was* very important to get right, as we’ve been building towards the Last Battle for so long.
Where I don’t agree is that Brandon sacrificed characterization to do battles. Brandon gave us excellent character moments throughout, and in fact used the battles to highlight character. Those horrific battles showed us the stuff of which our characters were really made.
This is true during the Last Battle chapter itself – where I was cheering or guffawing as often as crying. I think for instance of Mat tweaking Galad about losing to a Trolloc holding a quarterstaff; Galad’s growing to the point that he saw it as the *right* thing to assassinate women; Elayne *liking* that about Galad since he wasn’t being gallant and treating women as less threatening than men; showing the difference between Galad’s character, who carried out his mission from necessity, and his men, as the Whitecloaks took savage pleasure in killing “witches”; and etc.
That’s just one chain of events *and characterization* that jumps out at me. We could talk about Gawyn and Galad’s final moments; the glimpse we got at the heart of Tam, as he *became* the Void battling Trollocs; the character moments between Tam and Lan; the brief glimpse at the Duopotamian Soul, as we saw mention that the Two Rivers fighters were “a thorn to the Dark One’s foot and a bramble to his hand,” a comment that brought tears to my eyes and a cheer to my lips. Of course Pevara and Androl’s character moments shone throughout.
And so many other moments. I thought Brandon kept the character moments coming all throughout the battle.
This was true earlier in the book as well. We saw deft character touches like Elayne finding Trom eaiser to talk to than Galad; Aviendha sneaking into the Andoran camp; Elayne’s continued preoccupation with learning curses; Birgitte pulling out her anti-channeling medallion when Elayne talked about going to the front lines; Lan’s teaching the Borderlanders to celebrate their lost companions; the Borderlanders swapping stories of the most insane and valiant things they’d seen their fallen do; Agelmar calling Lan out on the selfishness and immaturity of wanting to die for Malkier rather than live to fight the Shadow (not sure if Agelmar was already being influenced by Graendal, but either way, it needed saying); Rand and Mat boasting to each other; Rand and Perrin being honest, and Perrin telling him he didn’t like talking to him with a stoneface; Mat on every page he was in, really; Egwene and Rand bringing out the 2 year old in each other; Nynaeve tearfully hugging Moiraine, and immediately demanding she not tell Lan; etc.
At no time did I feel I was just reading about ciphers being moved on the map. At no time did I feel I was reading battle descriptions and not having some sense of the people fighting those battles. Characterization was front and center throughout. In my opinion, of course.
So why so many complaints about characterization? Well, it’s possible I’m just not understanding the critique, and if so, hopefully some of you will clarify. But I suspect the problem is we just have so blamed MANY characters. We all have our favorites (of minor characters as well as major ones – I’m unaccountably attached to Seaine, for instance, and I really want to know how Talaan got to Shayol Ghul). And there was no way we could see all the character moments we wanted and also advance the plot. There was just too much to be done.
So I’ve started, in my reread (about 200 pages into a very slow reread), to think of this as a book of vignettes. We don’t see everything – not everything that happens to every character, and not every beat of every fight. But we get vignette after beautiful vignette of wonderful character moments and exciting (and horrifying) events. Are there dozens of other scenes we’d like? Dozens of other characters we’d like to check in on? Characters whose fates we (barring the encyclopedia) may never know?
Of course. (I’m glad Talaan showed up, but what happened to Merilille? Was she there too? Did she die on the way? Was she Black Ajah, bringing Talaan to be Turned, but Talaan turned the tables? Will Talaan become Aes Sedai or return to the Windfinders? AHH. I have dozens of similar questions about dozens of other characters. And of course, however impractical, we all wish we’d had full Superboy, Supergirl, and TR reunions.)
That well reflects the fog of war, and is a testament to the world that RJ created and that Brandon Sanderson brought to completion for us. But with dozens of major characters and hundreds of minor ones, we were never going to get every character moment we wanted.
But I’m grateful for each and every beautiful character vignette.
You’re right Chaplainchris…..at first I thought there were character moments lacking, but I think I was hellbent on reading it all, as quickly as possible…..inspite of my stated desire to take my time. The LB was so hefty and dense, I think I was paying more attention to tactics…again speed reading.
I’m doing my own reread now, slowly. I’d forgotten, or completely sped by, much of what happened before the LB. There’s tons of good interaction in there! I’m looking forward to taking the LB more slowly too, now that I know the outcome. The ending was so moving, I could think of nothing else for days afterwards.
As you say, there are many loose ends that are not tied up, and we all have a few minor characters and plot points that just were not represented. Had they been, this probably would’ve been two books.
So I agree….some good character interactions, indeed. Bravo Brandon Sanderson!
Thanks Tek.
Now, Wall of Text #2. Defending the use of Moiraine.
Well, sort of.
Like most of you, I am a little disappointed not to have seen a little more of Moiraine on-screen. However, what we *did* see I really liked.
In particular, her appearance at the Fields of Merrilor gave me goosebumps. Now, I’ve seen lots of opposing reactions – people disappointed that all she did was “quote prophecy”, and that her role could have been filled by any Aes Sedai, like Cadsuane or Egwene.
Well, in the first place, of course her role couldn’t have been filled by Egwene or Cadsuane. Egwene and Rand were on opposite sides; no one could have mediated between them as well as Moiraine. No one else would have been trusted, by Rand and Egwene specifically, as they trusted Moiraine.
Certainly not Cadsuane. Egwene doesn’t even know her, and as for Rand…Rand and Cadsuane may have patched up their differences, but she’s never had the relationship with Rand that Moiraine does. I really don’t see Rand being able to compromise on the seals on the basis of Cadsuane’s advice (whatever it may have been). Only Moiraine – who found him, protected him, scared him, but promised to obey him and won his trust – only Moiraine would have been trusted enough.
It couldn’t be Min. Egwene would’ve dismissed her as besotted with Rand.
It couldn’t be any other Aes Sedai, as Rand wouldn’t have trusted them in a million years.
Functionally, it needed to be Moiraine.
Given that, what about the way the scene was actually written?
As I said, chills. The confrontation between Rand and Egwene prior to M showing up was, I thought, well done. Both were prepared, persuasive, and played the Game of Houses well. Both showed just how much they’d grown.
As an aside: after all the Egwene-hate following Rand and Egwene’s argument in TOM, all the condemnation for Egwene not listening to Rand’s ideas, that Egwene actually did have the Tower scholars investigate his plans, and came up with some good counter-arguments.
I also note that, for all Egwene’s defenders (like me) argued that she was only doing what Rand wanted, it was apparent that she did oppose Rand more strongly than he anticipated.
Both the Eg-haters and Eg-defenders were right. And so, of course, both were wrong. Team Jordan surprised us, in other words, and that’s all to the good.
In any case, the scene was well done, and the breakdown of relations was also well done. For all the ways Rand and Egwene had grown, they still brought out the two-year-old in each other. They reverted to name calling and were ready to storm out and go their separate ways, maybe even fight each other. Lews Therin and Latra Posae all over again.
And then came Moiraine. Once again, without her, the world would have fallen to the Shadow.
And how did Moiraine turn things around? How did she get everyone’s attention?
To begin with, she was mysterious and inscrutable. How Moiraine-like! She didn’t come in and scold or belittle, like *ahem* Cadsuane might have. She didn’t immediately jump into logic and reason, though she got there. She began with mystery and prophecy.
You know what it reminded me of? Egwene’s debate/confrontation with Elaida. Egwene spent a good part of that spouting the Prophecies of the Dragon, pointing out how Elaida had idiotically set herself against the prophecies. How, for instance, by trying to capture Rand and ‘protect’ the world from him, she threatened him fulfilling his prophesied destiny.
Many enjoyed that scene, but many also commented that the writing…tilted…in Egwene’s favor. Many of us felt Egwene was elevated by dumbing Elaida and the others down a bit. (Dumbing down Elaida, insert joke here.)
So Moiraine coming in, quoting the prophecies that she’d followed all her adult life, using them to make everyone *including Egwene* reconsider…well, I thought it was brilliantly done. It didn’t rely on making anyone else dumber. It just showed how awesome Moiraine was. It was reminiscent of the Egwene/Elaida scene (and probably scenes in books four and five where Rand quotes the prophecies at people, including Moiraine), but it showed that however far Egwene and Rand had come, they still had a ways to go to measure up to Moiraine.
Kewl.
After that, we didn’t get as many character vignettes with Moiraine as I’d have liked. I wish we could’ve seen her reunion with Siuan, or whatever talk there was between her and Lan. (I can understand the awkwardness – apart from her passing his bond to Myrelle, which I’m sure Lan was over, there’s the fact that he was once sworn to Moiraine but wasn’t any longer. Likewise, she also had a new Warder. Both had moved on, and that had to be awkward for both.)
But the Merrilor scene was great, to me. Nynaeve’s tears and irritation were great. M’s later scene with Rand, where she sees right through his “I am Ancient and Wise” act, is brilliant. Her argument with him and her support of him is great. Her sending the DR to fetch tea was great.
Also, Brandon (I assume) made me see something about Moiraine that I’d never quite realized. Considering my handle (chaplain) it’s crazy that I never noticed.
Moiraine is religious. A person of faith, at least.
While it’s true that Randland has no organized church or worship (apart from Whitecloaks, and the Watchers over the Waves, and the Aes Sedai themselves), it’s certainly a religious place. Evidence of the Dark One is plain in the world, and there are lots of shared beliefs – in a Creator and a Dark One, in reincarnation, the circularity of time, the Pattern, the weaving of the Wheel, ta’veren (note that the Seanchan don’t share that particular belief), etc. Brandon/Team Jordan commented in the book that Moiraine, more than anyone else, had believed in “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills”. She believed in finding and following the path of the Pattern.
In my terms…she had faith.
That’s why she took three ta’veren to the Eye of the World, all the way back in book one. She believed that destiny had given them a chance to stop the DO from claiming the Eye, and she intended to follow that weaving and throw herself, the ta’veren, and their companions in the way of the DO’s designs…not with a plan, but in faith that they could make a difference.
She had faith in Rand, in the Prophecies, in the weaving of the Wheel.
I’d never really seen Moiraine in that light, but I do now through what was done with her in this book. It rings true to her character but is a side of her that I really hadn’t seen before.
That, my friends, is excellent character work.
And hey, by joining Rand and Nynaeve at Shayol Ghul (Hah, I was right, along with a billion others), she helped save the world again. And she and Nynaeve, by seizing Moridin through Callandor’s flaw, co-bagged another Forsaken to go with their previous Forsaken-beating totals. And he was the biggest, baddest Forsaken of all.
More Moiraine would’ve been great. But what we did get was also great, I thought.
I know I’m already frightfully late in posting my thoughts on the book (my general reaction was wayyyyy back @261), and to catch up on alllll these comments it’ll probably take me from now until the SD signing in a week and a half, or until the Re-read starts again in a week (Woo!).
I’m sure you all know how that RL thing likes to eat up time we’d rather spend chatting about WoT… and in my case, I keep getting distracted not just by the usual goings-on around here, but decided to clean my room. So my notes have been sitting on my desk waiting. I finished the book in 5 days including the time spent writing notes; my mom is almost finished (she just finished That Long Chapter of Death).
Now, I wrote notes as I was reading, and didn’t backtrack, so that will take a while for me to transcribe sort out. I’m going to, as before (on the ToM spoiler thread) present them sorted by character and/or major plotline, in no particular order. (And I’ll probably forget to list a few things from the early-published chapters, but oh well.) And this being the last book (*sniffle*), that post is going to be, to borrow Leigh’s word, elephantine. ;)
I sure hope TPTB don’t close this thread before I’ve caught up…
Bzzz™.
lucubratrix @739
The madness which Nynaeve healed was detectable as though attached to his mind. That is a purely physical issue, and a physical correction. That it manifested itself as a mental defect should not be mistaken for something of the soul. Anyone who has been under the influence of, well, anything, whether for medicinal or recreational reasons knows this. The mental, emotional or psychotropic effects of a drug are doing nothing (directly) to one’s soul. Chemical allergies can also produce mental/emotional behavior impacts, and these too are completely physical, and unless recognized are often mistaken for personality disorders, or simply as antisocial behavior.
Flip,
This thread is about the story and the writing. Send an email to the front office of Tor to complain about publication practices. The author’s widow/senior editor made the decision for reasons which she believed just when made. Whine about a lady wishing to sustain and protect her late husband’s legacy elsewhere.
Just to totally stir the pot, today is the local art blogger and sometimes moderator, Irene Gallo’s, birthday.
I hope you’re out going nuts instead of reading this, Irene!
Happy birthday, Irene! And I’ll echo Freelancer – I hope you’re having fun somewhere, and don’t see any of this until tomorrow!
Awww, thanks guys! I’ve had a great day! Made even better by all the well-wishes.
Also — 750 comments! Do you guys want to open a “Part Two” thread for this discussion?
Well, since you ask, Irene. Folks reading on iPads and wireless laptops might like not having to wait for the refresh times of this thread.
On the other hand, once Leigh returns to the re-read on 05-Feb, pretty much all discussion will move there, so a pt2 might not turn out to have mattered much. Your call?
742.chaplainchris1
In general, excellent post, good thoughts. I do think you’ve slightly overstated your case regarding Moiraine’s religiousity, so I will nitpick shamelessly:
Well, she might believe that in book 14, but if you go back to TDR she is doing everything to catch Rand before he gets to Tear, and in early TSR she is hell-bent on getting Rand to attack Illian, and in TFoH she ‘surrenders’ to him the better to control him. There’s not much surrendering to the will of the pattern, is there?
Meh. Faith, Plot Device. You say Potato, I say Potahto.
That said, there are moments when she does surrender to the Pattern – but like Nynaeve, it’s usually when the Pattern has left her no choice. For example, when Rand leaves the Stone of Tear for Rhuidean, or when Perrin and Egwene are separated from Rand and Mat after Shadar Logoth.
So I would say that Moiraine is conflicted. On the one hand, she believes that the Pattern will ensure that humanity is ready to fight at the Last Battle. On the other hand, she is sure that the Dark One may very well triumph unless she personally exerts herself to the utmost against his will. She holds both of these contradictory beliefs firmly, and there is no simple resolution to their conflict – which is what makes Moiraine interesting as a character.
Man-0-Manetheran@479
The ‘near- toothless wilder was Norla…
She can’t be Nakomi simply because she is a wilder,while Nakomi can’t channel and as far as I know,Nakomi has all her teeth intact…:)
JLevy @@@@@ 752
I’ll nitpick on your nitpicking ;)
What we have here, basically, is Moiraine reading the Prophecies- which have to assume the role of religious texts for the sake of the argument. Then she interprets them in the light of her current circumstances, background, and needs.
This alone, looking at our own human experience, doesn’t preclude her from being religious. Quite the opposite, one could say- a bit mischievously.
Anyway, as I said, I’m nitpicking too. I like your analysis of Moiraine. Perhaps she sees herself as an instrument of the Pattern to foil the plans of the DO and its minions. Given all the foiling she did, it’s difficult to argue against this. Lanfear And Belaal are welcome to try :)
JonathanLevy @@@@@ 752:
Oh, I think I have too! It was a newish thought for me, so I stated it pretty affirmatively, but I’m not completely convinced myself that it’s not a change in her character (either due to the change in writer – I do wonder if Brandon’s faith might impact things – or due to her experiences with Lanfear and the ‘Finn). So nitpick away!
As I said, it’s one of the things I’ll be watching for when I do a series reread at some point. In recent years, I’ve mostly confined my rereading to the latter half of the series (though I’ve gone through TEOWTW and TGH at least once in the last 3 years). Whatever. What I’m trying to say is, I’m not sure the argument holds up either.
I quite affirm Valmar’s mischief at 754. Being religious, even of the same faith/sect, certainly doesn’t mean there will be agreement! (I am horrified by much of what comes from ‘followers’ of my own faith, so there you go.)
That said, from what I recall she wanted Rand to attack Illian b/c she thought it was reasonable and would “fit” the prophecies as well as anything else. She seemed to use the prophecies but let her own reasoning and sensibilities guide her more.
But then they went to Rhuidean over her objections, and the Aiel were revealed as People of the Dragon, showing that Rand was actually following the Prophecies, and the Dreamwalkers revealed their visions not just of him but also of Moiraine herself….So perhaps that and other events impacted her and made her more willing to surrender to the Pattern?
There are two differences of note between the Moiraine prior to her fight with Lanfear, and the Moiraine after. First is that it seems she learned a few things about the prophecies, in order to employ them more effectively. Before, she misunderstood and misapplied them almost without fail. At Merrilor she nailed them down and shoved them in all the right faces; Egwene, Rand, rulers. Second, she sees clearly now that Rand is the Dragon. She knew it with her mind, before, but continued to deal with him as a farmboy who should be so afraid of her that he must obey her, or at least listen to her. At Merrilor she knows that he is the one who must and can defeat the Dark One.
Beyond those, she is still the Moiraine we met on Winternight. Unafraid of her duty, and unconcerned if anyone else cares. She has to be feeling some satisfaction that Rand is where he belongs and ready in time for the conflict. In a large way, she surrendered to the Pattern more than twenty years before.
In the philisophical sense, knowing that what is going to happen is beyond your ability to manipulate or control does not relieve you of the responsibility to do what you can and should to bring it about. Some see a paradox in this: If it will be, then it would be with or without your involvement. But reality shows that what will be, will be because of what people do. To abdicate any sense of duty and simply stand back and wait, is to fail. This, Moiraine never does.
Yes, she tried too hard to force Rand along a path which she and Siuan had constructed for him, and that was a mistake. Partly, that was due to her upbringing in court politics in Cairhien, partly due to the prevalence of White Tower manipulations among the nations. She felt that, before Rand would be taken seriously, he needed to hold political power. This is why she suggested the war with Illian. Once the Pattern pushed them to Rhuidean, she got the harsh reality from the rings ter’angreal, and focused instead on trying to teach Rand as much as she could, rather than her original plans.
Hey guys,
A couple of people have already mentioned it, but just to be official, the Re-read will start up again with AMOL on February 5th, so watch this space.
Also, a sincere thank you to everyone on the thread for *your* thank yous. I continue to be thrilled beyond words that so many of y’all are enjoying this series. I have all the warm fuzzies right now, seriously.
See y’all in a week-ish!
Was Ishamael affected by the taint? In his discourse with Rand during their final confrontation, Moridin owns that he was “mad” and thought he was the D.O. at the time of his death in the “Ishy” body. So was the madness the “taint”? And although his connection to the D.O. protected him, was it that the protection was not absolute, and just over the century’s the madness crept in? Or was Ishy’s madness his own without the taint effect.
Great, thanks for the news Leigh! Or rather the confirmation or whatever… Anyway, looking forward to the continuation of the re-read.
Great Book!! Iv’e read most of the comments here about favorite parts of the book but no mention of Gaul protecting Rand(Car’a’carn) from Slayer in Tel’Aran’Rhiod. Give the StoneDog some credit he was in there for quite some time while Perrin was napping (No shot at you Goldeneyes.) Just saying. Oh! listen to the song “Promentory” by Trevor Jones and Randy Edelman while reading Lans’ charge into thousands of Trollocs on to battle Demandred. So fitting.
“May you always find water and shade.”
Re Avi’s odd quadruplets /double-twin theory:
One option could be, that one twin pairs, origings from Rand (the “you will bed me now” event *) with the other set of twins fathered by Rand in Moridin’s body. (Avi would have bed Morirand really quick though)
(*) she could be pregnant, even if drinking water isn’t a common sign.
Re channeling theory (JonathanLevy @619 and …)
Nice summary.
Minor nitpick aside from the corrections made by Freelancer:
You accept that a male soul is always reborn in a male body. By the same logic it’s easy to accept that a channeler’s soul could easily be born to a channelers body (just pointing it out because you used it as an argument, I prefer what iavasechui @696 said, taking up an arguemnt for sparkers vs learners)
It wouldn’t make the soul-part redundant, just more complicated, but who ever said, that a simple theory is better than a complicated one?
633. JeffS. “So there is no one in Rand’s old body.”
– Rand disagrees with you on that part. He thinks Moridin gets burried within his old body.
Wetlandernw @556. Re DarkOne / Human Evil
I’m looking forward to your essay.
For the moment just consider this (I’ve not reread said part, so I’m not sure if me argument holds to scrutiny):
Rand weaves the pattern as he tried to make a world without the Dark One as he saw it: without evil. That takes the choice away.”
Maybe it’s a fault in his thinking (“No Dark One – no evil) but since Rand imagined it that way, the possible reality showed how it did. It doesn’t mean it had happend that way, if he’d just killed the Dark One.
Alphaleonis@375 Re swordmasters:
Lan had fought for days without end, while Demandred had only 2 physically challenging fights (Gawyn, Galad). I don’t think you can compare skills if you have tho fighers with such different pre-conditions concerning fatigue.
Re Nakomi at the end
Having read the comments I might have to believe Nakomi is waiting at the mouth of the cave, but if this is true: when did Rand ask Alivia for help? She must have been present there as well, because from the text I got the impression that Moridin’s body slumbered right until Rand woke up and then went away with the things she prepared upon his instructions: and she did place it for Moridin’s body to leave…
266. freelancer
“Demandred … made sure Gawyn realized that he was a dead man no matter what.” –
Not only the Father of Lies can lie, there is no way to be sure, that an Aes Sedai couldn’t have healed him (Seanchan did not use healing prior to lately and bloodknifes usually were sent on suicide missions.
And finally a last comment about ebook publication date.
No, people are not entitled to be infuriated because of a later date. That’s like demanding the paperback at the same day. (I’m sure the same people would have complained if the ebook had been published at the same time but for the same prize as the real book)
The question is, are you willing to wait for the ebook, or pay the hardback to get the story as quickly as possible (I was not, and therefor will pay twice).
Toryx, I can’t think of a sole disability wich would incapacitate a person from getting the story by book or audible, but would be perfectly fine with an ebook. Can you give me an exapmle?
One thought that occurred to my as interesting was Lanfear’s new name Cyndane (“Last Chance”). Everyone tried to play it off as a joke, but there at the end she was the DO’s “Last Chance” to win. Yet another example of the detailed planning that something several books back would pop up at the end like that.
Sure looking forward to Leigh’s re-read musings and everyone’s follow-up comments. I’m constantly thinking about the concluding book and bouncing back and forth between admiration for how well some things were done and frustration at missing loose ends, “foreshadowings” that were (so far as I can detect) followed up.
Where were the Sea Folk in all this? What did their “Caramoor” actually do for them and what role did they ultimately play? And many more.
Has it occurred to anyone else how Rand’s “battle” with the DO resembled the Buddha’s enlightenment? And Morodin chose “snuffing out” and thus escape from the WOT birth/death cycle, but Rand made the “Western” choice of continuing the struggle, hoping for improvement. I’ve heard it said that THE MAJOR contribution of “Western” culture to humanity is the idea that the human condition can be improved through striving – this as opposed to accepting the inevitability of death and failure. Anyway: lots of philosopy, religion, and physics in RJ’s world.
D-Mac @758
Ishamael was only partially trapped by the Seals placed upon the Dark One’s prison. Three thousand years of sometimes walking the world, sometimes not, could wreck a mind. That was always what I took for the source of his insanity.
Am I the only one who thought Egwene was portrayed throughout the last few books as “too awesome”? She had no manjor losses because of any flaws, unlike Rand, whose flaws were made obvious. She was pivotal in reuniting tower, killing Mesaana, killing Taim, standing upto Seanchen, annihilating an army, discovering anti-balefire and finally being influential enough to advice Rand after death. It felt unreal, given aoparently elayne began at a similar stage, and well you have others. Almost too much glory. Amyrlin sure, but unlike Rand’s side, which was all about how people should help him, whether its Nynaeve while cleansing saidin, how he cannot do things alone, egwene, ended up doing a lot alone.
I felt like it would have been good to see a good united effort from aes sedai which led to destruction, some sort of linking etc. Too glorified, almost designed for making us feel a loss of someone great.
Facultyguy@763:
Seafolk: Admittedly, we didn’t get a Seafolk pov, and only a few glimpses of them, but they were instrumental in keeping the “storm” at bay around Shayol Ghul, and all of Randland. They were working the Bowl of the Winds 24/7, rotating their channelers in and out for rest.
It was nice to see the Bowl make a cameo here too, having appeared so long ago in these books.
So…
Did anyone else get a “Usual Suspects” vibe from the final scene? Leaving with a new ID; lighting a smoke; only one other character realizes just an instant too late to catch him. Loved the ending to “The Usual Suspects”, and really liked the last scene in the book, so I’m not criticizing, just considering.
Bowl of the Winds
Thanks to subwoofer and this re-read, I shall never encounter a 7-Layer Dip without thinking of the Bowl of the Winds.
Freelancer@764 and D-Mac@758
I think Ishy’s madness stemmed from too much use of the True Power. Somewhere in the text it is stated as being highly addictive, with long-term negative consequences including the saa (to the point where your eyes appear to be on fire) and insanity.
Since no one seems to be going the “Collected Memories of Light” page any more, I’ve copied my last post over from there.
Are there any lines that you think would have made good Memories that weren’t chosen? I vote for
Can you imagine the speculation we could have had on that?
@769 forkroot
I forgot about the effect of the TP, but do we have any confirmation that Ishy was using the True Power b4 the Moridin incarnation, because it seems that the mention of the “saa” in his eyes was only noted in Moridin. But you may be absolutely right.
I agree with everyone about the end to the series being bittersweet. I loved this book, as I have loved every single moment of every single book in this series. I’ve only been aware of WoT for about 6 years, but I already feel as if it has been ingrained as a major event into the Pattern of my life.
Yes, I was satified with all of the shout-outs given to various characters, while simultaneously disappointed with the exclusion of others. But I understand that the immensity of this series made that almost inevitable.
To be honest, I was never bothered with many things others have complained about– the middle to late-middle books never struck me as slow or uninteresting, and I never felt that any characters were ruined with the author transition. I have felt– perhaps too zealously– that this series was far more perfect than anyone else ever expressed. And yet… there was certainly a feeling of rushed finality at the end of the book. I don’t know if there would have been a way to avoid that, but I keep thinking of ways it could have stretched on longer, ways we could have witnessed conclusions for so many characters without having to infer them. Even so, A Memory of Light was as good as I could have dared hope.
I will also add that the team did a fantastic job with character deaths. I wanted none, feared more, and got just the right dose. I do not think that character death is a necessary part of a series, no matter what GRRM fans say. I would have been happy if– and was even sort of hoping/expecting– Rand used Creator powers to rescue those who fought for him from their fates, or if balefire were used in a powerful manner to end the rest of the Forsaken and undo the good-guy deaths. But Egwene’s ethereal words to Rand made it feel more right that this was the way it should be.
Fantastic job, Team Jordan. Thanks for experience.
Some interesting thoughts on the Taint, and why Ishamael went crazy. The male Forsaken are protected from the Taint by their link to the Dark One, but while he was sealed away, however imperfectly, before the seals started to fade, what protected Ishamael from the taint? If he was able to use the the Dark Ones power the whole time he was free, ( the 40 years after the sealing, the 40 years during the Trolloc wars, and the 40 years during Hawkwings rule and fall, then the madness is not taint related.)
However, if he was only able to feel the darkone during certain parts of his freedom, he would have to use Saidin. So suppose since he can’t access the Dark Ones power, then it is logical to assume he is also blocked from the protection from the taint. This could be why he ended up believing he was the DarkOne at the beginning of the series. of course this is all crazy, but I might be having lingering effects from the taint myself…
Sam,
I’m not sure that Ishamael believed he was the dark one, though neither do I rule it out. It is other forsaken who say that about him, and we know that they aren’t the most reliable character witnesses. He definitely presents himself as if he were the Biggest Baddest during those early events, but when you want to intimidate a farmboy into submission, you don’t half-step. Little did he know that he’d pitted himself against Two Rivers bedrock.
There’s no question he was certifiable during that time, and perhaps the complete answered is found in his excessive use of the True Power, but there’s little chance of coming away mentally unimpacted by 300 decades of varying levels of lucidity, mobility, and self-awareness.
@771 Dmac: Yep Ishy was usin’ before the Moridin incarnation. His corpse at the end of tDR had completely “burnt-out” eyes.
How many heads would have exploded…
Mat finally worked up the nerve to ask the question which had been weighing on his mind for some time. “Since, back in Falme, when I blew the Horn, have I become, I mean, after I die, will I have to answer a summons from that blasted Horn?”
While many of the Heroes smiled or chuckled, a figure quietly nudged forward from the misty shadows, bareback on a shaggy-maned mare. “I’m sorry, Mat.” Gawyn said with a shrug, as he patted Bela’s neck, “It turns out you are not one of us.”
Free @776:
**head explodes**
*goes to clean brain off walls*
(Nope, still not done composing yet.)
Bzzz™.
regarding Mat’s luck, this quote:
@674
That would really depend on if his luck is part of his Ta’Veren nature.
Which is up for debate. Personally, I don’t think it is. He was
Ta’Veren since book one. He didn’t get his luck until TDR. Personally I
think Verin, or someone else, did something with that 5-dice
Ter’Angreal that went missing at the same time Mat got lucky. It was
listed by Verin as being stolen by the Black Ajah, but then never turns
up again and is never seen with them.
… really needs to be revisited in the revelation of Verin’s allegiances. I’m very very sure that the full description of that ter’angreal’s disappearance might have been something a lot more like “stolen by the Black Ajah. Used by the Black Ajah, to make it more likely some idiot would survive his healing. Not disclosed to the rest of the Black Ajah, ’cause Light burn those bitches. OH, and hidden by the Black Ajah, from the Black Ajah. SUCK IT.”
Freelancer @776 – Oh, you are wicked! Many, many heads. Explosions world-wide. Oh, my, what an image…
(I’ll be chuckling over that for a couple weeks…)
I can’t say I remember what all may have been suggested in the hundreds of comments, but I don’t seem to recall anyone stating the semi-obvious: SURELY Egwene will become a Hero of the Horn! How could anyone possibly be more qualified? ON THE OTHER HAND: Do we know of ANY Hero who is a channeler? Any former Aes Sedais? What I seem to remember about Heros is that they are all “warriors,” but then Jaim Farstrider may break that rule. Does anyone recall other Heros that might resemble Egwene in qualities?
While I am neither a raving Mat fan, nor an Egwene hater, it’s easy for me to say if not Mat, then not Egwene. She did remarkable things. She set in place the possibility of wonderful positive change in society. So, would we say that Steve Jobs is a Hero of the Horn? I don’t think so. Many of the things Egwene accomplished were facilitated by undermining another’s status or opinion; by berating or out-politicking. Deft and devious maneuvering may prove profitable and worthwhile in the long run, but heroic? Not quite. And having achieved so much via those methods, she felt no restraint at attempting to use them on Rand when the world hung in the balance.
Now a look at Mat. Scoundrel? Check. Lazy? Check. Lacking focused introspection? Check. His actions very often could be summarized like this:
“I need to get out of here. Oh crumbs, that guy over there is about to get in all kinds of trouble. I’ll just warn him and then be on my way. Hmm, now I get a better look at this trouble he’s facing, warning won’t be enough, I’ll give him a quick display of how to deal with it, then beat feet. Man, that was exhausting, I guess I’ll just rack out here until the morning, much easier to travel in the daylight.”
Never once does he think he’s doing anything special, and often with the pretext of protecting his own opportunity to be somewhere else. But he never actually runs away from a problem. Duty might be heavier than a mountain, but Matrim Cauthon seems to end up sitting on the summit smoking some Two Rivers leaf, eyeing the nearest female form.
770. badplatypus:
Thom killing Cads – too spoilery, sorry.
(For me DKS’ (not used) cover was too spoilery as well. I never really feared for Elayne, because I knew she would be standing at his pyre).
778. Telcontar:
One event in EotW leads me to think Mat’s luck was not really up in the first book (despite that he later remebers to have always been lucky):
EotW, Ch20: (When they flee from Shadar Logoth)
Mat is quite off with his “lucky guess” of where to flee to from the Trollocs. And this could have been a crucial situation.
Freelancer
@776: I would have smiled at that. Not in the least for the fan outburst.
@781: I very much like that assessment ::Comment Nr. edited::
So, here’s a twist on the theories re Rand’s pipe-lighting powers. Remember this from the dark prophesy at the beginning of TGH?
The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
This pretty clearly describes Rand’s battle with the DO. He stands alone against the DO, is forced to watch his friends die (through the DO’s news clips of the last battle), and is ultimately faced with two choices: (1) the DO’s compromise offer of oblivion; or (2) resealing the DO’s prison with what is described as a new Power of pure light.
Assuming the first choice is the road to “death beyond dying,” that makes the second choice the road “to life eternal,” right? And if so, is it eternal life for Rand? In other words, did Rand actually become a demigod, or perhaps an avatar of the Creator (a la Rama/Vishnu)? This would explain his “talking” in all-caps toward the end of his confrontation with the DO, the fact that he held the power to reshape the pattern, his ability to switch bodies with Moridin, his pipe lighting… and even the “odd” nature of Avi’s babies (they get access to the OP at birth because their pops is a demigod?). Of course, “life eternal” could simply refer to Rand continuing his eternal existance as a Hero of the Horn… but I still like the demigod/avatar theory.
Freelancer at 774
Rand asks him about it in a section of the book, though I can’t recall if it was in the dreamshard or the last confrontation. Rand says something like ” you really believed you were him there at the end, didn’t you” ” Did he punish you for it?” Moridin replies with something like ” yes, He brought me back to life”
I don’t have the book handy, but the quotes are close, I think
You could look at it either way:
Is the “Yes” for “You thought you were the Dark One, didn’t you?” or for “Has he punished you for that?” Clearly the second part of Moridin’s answer addresses Rand’s second question, and it sounds a lot like the “Yes” does as well. However, it could readily enough be taken as an oblique admission of Rand’s first assumption.
Freelancer@781
I think you’re a bit hard on Mat. Consider what he was willing to do at the Tower of Ghenjei. Or, in his own words: “Well burn me for a fool … maybe I am a hero after all”.
Oh, by the way, your evil twin has managed to hack into your Tor account. Check out the post @776.
The Dragon is specifically mentioned as being a Hero by RJ and the various heroes all alluded to it t in TGH with their familiar attitudes towards him and telling him they knew him better than he did himself.
As for Mat, while the odds are very good he is not a Hero of the Horn given he was flat out told as much, his status may not be quite as clear as he thinks it is.
While it is safe to say he probably wasn’t a Hero of the Horn when he asked the question and was told no, that doesn’t preclude the Horn choosing to bind his soul when he dies thanks to his actions –as it does take new souls from time to time according to Hawkwing (although presumably very seldomly).
There is also the possiblility of course that the guy whose name escapes me at the moment was simply lying through is teeth to Mat in order to make him feel better and/or because the rules to being a hero (such as the one(s) Birgitte broke when she revealed herself to the various main characters in the dream world) forbid telling someone he or she is a hero while they are alive.
We don’t know exactly what those rules are, but we do know they exist since Birgitte said as much and that breaking them is exteremely dangerous.
BruinJP @783
A favorite oath among Third Age inhabitants: “By my hope of salvation and rebirth…” While we have been shown possibilities whereby a person is not reincarnated during a turning of the Wheel, Jordan has suggested in some of his only mildly cryptic interview answers that once the whole timeline rolls over, all bets are off, and things start over fresh. One would have to ask, if this is true, does that mean that Hopper (and all other wolves/people slain in t’a’r) will be reborn into the Waking World in the next cycle of the Pattern? The best understanding of the author’s comments on these matters would seem to me to be yes. In that case, eternal life is there for everybody, and could only be forfeit by the Dark One’s victory, Time’s demise.
It is one of the philosophical quibbles I have about the cosmology of the story, because in this longest view, there are truly no consequences for actions, unless you are the Dragon, because everything comes back around again. Even Moridin is displeased with “getting to” live over and over again, no matter how wickedly he has acted.
The idea of Rand being elevated as you are suggesting doesn’t scan with the entire rest of the story. He’s just this guy, see? The evidence you offer (aside from the pipe-lighting, which may be a specific “gift” ability) can be answered another way. Rand “speaking in all caps” is a function of where they are during that part of the confrontation, much more than who Rand is, namely outside of the Pattern. Once Rand begins manipulating “possibilities”, he begins conversing with the “voice” of a higher authority, but that is temporary. The body switch must be related to a property of tel’aran’rhiod, coupled with the pre-existing link between Rand’s and Moridin’s bodies.
Samadai @784
Not quite done with my second reading, it must be near the ending. Definitely not in the dreamshard scene at the beginning, where Rand blows his mind with fake Dragon Nature effects. Might be in the prison-sealing setup. I do agree that there is a dialogue of that context between them.
Wetlandernw @785
And thank you for finding it. Well, the only way for Moridin to answer even the second portion, “Has he punished you for that?”, with a yes, is if the first portion was valid. It would seem to me conclusive that Moridin is concurring, that he behaved as though he were the Dark One himself.
forkroot @786
Not hard on Mat at all. Yes, he discovered the unpalatable truth in the Tower of Ghenjei, Mat Cauthon is a bloody hero after all. He always has been. It’s buried deep within his spirit, his upbringing, his Blood. But his personality has never had room for it. Even with the topic which brings it up, whether or not he’s a Hero of the Horn, he’s relieved to hear the negative.
wcarter @787
Had the same conversation with Tektonica this morning. Perhaps Mat will be recruited among the Heroes once his current life comes to an end. But I believe that if the one who answered him was concerned about the Precepts of tel’aran’rhiod (strictures which I believe do not hold during an event where they are summoned by the Horn, as they clearly interact with people of the Waking World), he wouldn’t lie, he would refuse to answer. And Gaidal reminded Birgitte that breaking the Precepts was always a mistake.
Freelancer @788
I agree that most of the ending can be explained in multiple ways (which is awesome, btw). For example, I think the most likely explanation for the body switch is that Alivia pulled off the switch with Nakomi guiding her. While most readers seem to be assuming that the woman’s voice Rand hears is speaking to him, the scene is written in a way that easily could be read as Nakomi speaking to Alivia, who in turn is doing something to Rand/Moridin to help Rand die.
But I think you may be overly discounting the significance of Rand speaking in all-caps. In the entire series, the only all-caps voices are the Creator, the DO, and Rand. I think this is more than simply a function of where he is when he speaks. Rather, I think it signifies that he has taken on at least some of the Creator’s power/role. In fact, the very strong implication is that he is not merely manipulating “possibilities,” but that he actually holds the power to weave the pattern to create the future of his choice (at least in a very big-picture sense). Now, I’m not suggesting that he kept all of this power after reforging the DO’s prison, but I think the pipe-lighting scene is pretty strong evidence that he kept some of it – thus, a demigod/avatar, not the Creator itself. And while I agree that one of the themes of the whole series is that of “just this guy” ending up saving the world, the reality is that he never truly was “just this guy.” He was the Dragon Reborn, a Hero of the Horn, and ultimately the world’s savior… it just took him a while to realize and accept it.
That being said, I think you’re right that the “life eternal” part of the dark prophesy applies to the Wheel generally, and not to Rand specifically. After all, demigods and avatars are not themselves immortal. But setting that aside, I love that at least some details of Rand’s final confrontation are prophesied WAY back in book 2….
I don’t know that Rand has to be elevated to demi-god status. Perhaps he just doesn’t need to channel anymore, because he is One with the Pattern….singularly “in tune”. He did reweave it after all, and he was outside of it, viewing it’s totality and immensity. I’m of the belief that he will simply find things effortless throughout the rest of his mortal life, which may, in fact, be a normal life span now, perhaps elongated a bit by his affinity with nature and the Pattern, but perhaps shortened somewhat, by Moridans abuse of this new host body before Rand took possesion of it.
As for Mat….. He is a true Hero, whether he likes to admit it or not. His denial is part of his charm. He always does the right thing, whether his internal dialogue indicates his intentions might be different. He has NEVER not done what needed to be done.
Whether he is a Hero of the Horn, is up for grabs. He’s told he is not, but that could be because he is still alive, and has yet to be added to the ranks. He is the amalgam of many great generals, and he did WIN the Last Battle, on the ground, so to speak. Brilliantly. If he doesn’t qualify to be a Hero, then I don’t know the definition. Whether he’ll be pleased about that, is another story.
Isn’t it great having things NOT tied up neatly? We can have our own fantastical endings!
Well he was told he was qualified to be one, but is not one. Presumably the reason he is not a hero of the horn is simply because he does not want to be one.
776.Freelancer
FIFY
781.Freelancer
Interesting thoughts. But Egwene’s also a Hero! She bravely put herself in harm’s way many times! She tried to help Moiraine against Aginor at the Eye and got brushed aside, she went off bravely after Liandrin’s bait and got captured and damaned, she went off to Tear and got captured again, then fought against Lanfear and got her ass handed to her, rushed forward at the seige of Tar Valon to Cuendillar the chain and was taken prisoner, and then fought against Taim and got herself killed!
Wait – whose point was I trying to make…?
783. BruinJP
I’m pretty sure that the part of the prophecy in TGH which refers to ‘life eternal’ refers to the DO’s promise to those who follow him. ‘Death beyond dying’ is a threat meant to coerce him – it’s the same threat that Ishamael has been using against Rand since book 1.
787.wcarter
I like the idea that Mat is a Hero of the Horn, but the other Heroes, knowing his nature all too well, have decided to keep it a secret from him while he lives. :)
789. BruinJP
also 790.Tektonica
I’m not sure about this – there doesn’t seem to be any place for this in the circular cosmology of the Wheel. But I think the ending is deliberately meant to be tantalizing and ambiguous.
At the end of TGS I wrote a couple of pages about parallels between Rand-becoming-the-Dragon and Jesus-becoming-the-Christ. I won’t rehash that now, but I think there’s room for another paragraph to be added:
The Arian controversy in the 3rd – 4th centuries revolved precisely around the question whether the Father (God) is greater than the Son (Jesus); that is to say, whether they have a similar essence or are one in essence.
By making Rand speak in CAPS, and letting him light his pipe with a thought, RJ has provided us with all the ammunition we need to reproduce that same controversy right here.
Wasn’t that nice of him?
JL @792
And there was one can I didn’t wish to open (yet) regarding this ending. The Christ parallels were fine, up to a point, but they fail once the story is complete and the ending can be seen. Rand was the champion chosen to represent the Light in the climactic conflict with the Shadow. There is no appropriate Christian analog. Jesus does not do battle as the Father’s Champion against His adversary:
An unnamed angel, not even one of the archangels, grabs him and imprisons him. The fight for salvation is not accomplished by an Avatar of the Creator. The battle was won at Calvary by what seemed a defeat, the death of the Son, the redemption every soul requires made available, and offered freely without additional payment or work required. But each person must choose whether to take or ignore that gift; that their deeds have been covered with His blood, and that they might be seen as righteous, worthy of eternal Life, because the price required of their deeds has been paid by His blood. His death paid the wages of the world’s sin; rising again proved His authority and dominion.
Rand spent his blood, but it was in no way substitutionary for a sentence required of every imperfect soul under the Law. This is so for more than one reason, the most significant of which is simply because his own blood is no more fit to be accepted as the payment of this ransom than any other’s. Rand is not without fault. His soul, his blood, are tainted by sin as are everybody’s, making him unfit as a true savior of all.
In the Riftwar series, Feist puts Pug into a similar situation, not as anyone’s Redeemer, but transporting him to the Halls of Creation, so to speak, where he is able to see the tapestry of all that is from the Weaver’s side, able to witness and grasp at the raw power of creation. It’s beautiful writing, and yet it is contrived, and almost serves to undermine and nullify all of the meaning for the various powers which the magicians of either Path employ. While I believe that Jordan’s construct is as strong as any found in fiction, every time I read an attempt to “go there”, I’m reminded of Icarus.
I’ll hold up there for now, and close with this. Yes, Jordan intended to leave us debating, pondering, learning. What was Rand’s wish once he realized he was likely to foment another Breaking? That history be preserved, and that learning would grow. No question in my mind why that concept is found in this story.
Are there any good pictures of Moridin? I want one for the background on my computer. Preferably smoking a pipe and sitting on a horse, a bonfire in the background.
@137 – If art (of which books are one form) can’t make you cry, I feel sorry for you, because you must be dead inside.
As promised, after a week of typing on-and-off, here is my collection of thoughts on the book. And it is very, very long—undoubtedly the longest comment I’ve ever posted, and wordy as all get out. (I hope it doesn’t break the thread.) Brace yourself…
(BEGIN massive WALL_OF_TEXT)
Random thoughts:
…I remarked on the size already @261 (and yes, MickeyDee @366, size DOES matter—just ask anyone who would rather be reading AMoL in eBook because it’s too heavy).
…I was amused when the SaSG (which is the title I’m using because it’s less typing) began only halfway through the book, no doubt setting up for the Mammoth Chapter of Doom.
…Never thought we’d see the Bowl again.
…I was slightly amused at the two (two!) mentions of gay men in the story, mostly because I knew Leigh must have also been amused.
…”The Last Battle”: Holy Cowski, what a long and grisly chapter. When I saw how long it was, I wrote: “190 pages?? Jiminy Crickets!”
…When I saw the phrase “snake-like”, I thought, “Have the ‘Finn come to the battle too, then?”
…I guess we can’t chant to break the Seals anymore, huh?
…”But it was an ending”: Who called it… Forkroot, was it you?
Rand, the Savior:
What more can be said? Rand is the Hero, in every meaning of the word.
…I liked his meeting in Ishy’s dreamshard (which itself is a neat concept). Don’t think we’ve ever seen Ishy actually frightened before.
…Rand meeting Roedran was hilarious. I was thinking, “Will the real Demandred please stand up?”
…The whole thing with the Dragon’s Peace came as no surprise (the starting of more arguments than he settled. “Follow me and don’t fight each other”… yeah, that’ll last a while. Not!) Giving the Aiel something to do besides run around escorting is a wonderful idea. And having Egs break the Seals: the Watcher becomes the Breaker, HA!
…Rand’s gifts: What a nice guy!
…Hey, it’s the little fat man angreal that hasn’t been seen in 9 books!
…Callandor + TP: This was rather surprising, though the thought should have occurred to me (it being asked about at signings). My general reaction, though, was “Nothing good can possibly come of this.”
…Rand’s singing, of course, immediately made me think of the Song—but of course that’s been debunked already.
…Rand telling Gawyn his parentage: Thus reassuring Gawyn’s impression of Rand as an Aielman back in TEotW!
…His “death” was expected… but the manner of his rebirth was very much a surprise, even having known about the Rand-switching-bodies-with-Moridin theories. How it was possible, we may never know.
…The pyre scene was hard to read without tearing up. So… all of 5 people (the girls, Alivia, and Cadsuane) know about the switch?
…The final scene was wonderfully done. “She will help you die”… Right. So now Rand can’t channel in the burnt-out body of Moridin, but has the power of… what? Control of the Pattern?
Nynaeve, the Healer:
Actually didn’t do a lot in this book, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t still awesome.
…I did NOT expect Nyn to hug Moiraine, but her comment after is pure Wisdom. “Insufferable woman.” HA!
…Those three know something I do not. I’ll have to beat it out of them. HAHAHAHAHAH.
Moiraine, the Wise/Thom, the Clever:
Are awesome once again.
…Her entrance at Merrilor: DUN! (insert sparkly YAY here) Her reunion with Rand was Awww.
…Something else that hadn’t been seen in 9 books: a Moiraine POV!
…How is it that Thom Merrilin didn’t get killed, just standing outside the Pit of Doom with nothing but his knives? (Because he’s awesome, that’s why.)
Thakan’dar/SaSG:
…”IT IS TIME”: Okay, so initially I didn’t understand whether this was supposed to be the Creator or the DO speaking. I’m leaning toward Creator, because the DO is fairly consistant in calling Rand “ADVERSARY”.
…Ituralde: Is a genius. Too bad it doesn’t last (thanks to Graendal’s meddling). And he gets to be a king in the end. Yay?
…Shaidar Haran: Dead ALREADY?!
…Light’s sake, has Alanna been at Shayol Ghul this whole time?? I’m sure I’m not the only one who wants to know how she wound up there and why.
…The DO’s possibilities: Reminded me of a LotR movie quote: “It is what will come to pass… if you should fail.”
…Rand watching so many good people die—Bashere and Hurin among them—was hard to read.
…I was amused when Rand got to use the BIG VOICE, which (from what comments I’ve read here) must mean he was outside the Pattern.
…Rand letting go, and his battle with the DO: Words can’t really describe how enjoyable it is to read; in any case… that’s a lotta capital letters. ;)
…Alanna’s death was expected; even her release of Rand’s bond, just in time, wasn’t too surprising.
…Now, that Moridin would stab himself to get a hold of Callandor was unexepected. We all talked about how using the DO’s own power against him would be wrong. And Rand and Min figured out a clever scheme to get Moridin to do it for them. Brilliant! And clever author! Rand reweaves the Pattern over the Bore, the world is saved, YAY.
…Who was the possibly-Aiel woman Rand encountered when he came out of SG? Was it Nakomi? Who is she, anyway?
Androl & Pevara/Logain/Asha’man:
The Black Tower situation looked pretty bleak for a while, but A&P pulled through. A&P are a cute couple, the difference in age notwithstanding.
…Well, that double-bond thing sure was sudden. The sharing of each others’ thoughts is interesting. Even though their personalities are as different as apples and oranges (at least, until they “mix” during the LB), they do work well together.
…I liked Androl’s trick with the miniature gateway. Of course, naturally, my mom wanted to know why gateways haven’t been used for such creative uses before (which, I noticed, had already sufficiently been covered in the comments above).
…I felt like saying “YES!” when A&P succeeded in driving Taim + co. out.
…I was grinning like a fool when Elayne’s channelers and the Asha’man made their Big Circle, followed by Androl calling up his miracle of a lava dump. I insist he get an award for that!
…Logain is clearly not all right in the head. (As a matter of fact, I’m not sure we’ve had a Logain POV before.)
…Oh, A&P, that could have gone as badly as Elayne’s stunt last book. But HA HA HA HA they fooled Demandred AND Taim with their disguises!
…HA HA HA HA, nice pick of the seals, Androl! And he gets promoted for his efforts, yay.
…Logain’s attempt to kill Dem was bold, but futile.
…A stedding! A&P, you’re both geniuses.
Aviendha, the Spear/Min, the Seer:
Are both awesome, in their own ways.
…Avi sneaking around: Heh.
…Seriously, Avi? “You will bed me now”?? And we all though Elayne’s request was imperious!
…Ah, Min… gotta love her. So wise. She does get herself into quite a pickle later, though. I like the title “Doomseer”; “Darbinda” is as Uuuuug-ly as “Knotai” or “Hessalam”.
…Why does Avi not trust King Alsalam?
…Avi was awesome during the battle at Thakan’dar.
…Avi getting saved by Cadsuane: Huh.
…Min did some nice deductive reasoning in outing the spy.
…Poor Rhuarc.
…Avi puts up a good fight against Graendal, but only her last-ditch attempt with unweaving her gateway saved her.
Lan, the Uncrowned King/Borderlanders:
Lan is awesome badass. Those two words say it all for most of the book.
…I LOVE that Lan talks to Mandarb. I wonder if the horse understands him? “No more biting grooms”, indeed!
…Who knew Agelmar could get through that thick skull of Lan’s.
…UNO!! I laughed when he showed up, and even more when El cursed right back at him (good thing I wasn’t drinking anything!).
…Lan’s talk with Kaisel that Leigh quoted above: XD
…Tenobia: Well, that was inevitable. Sad, but inevitable.
…I was pleased that Lan (and later, Perrin and Egwene) correctly figured out what was going on with the captains, while Elayne and Mat just assumed their captains had spontaneously turned Darkfriend.
…Uno gets his only POV(s) of the series, AFAIK. Hilarious. XD
…I was pleased when Lan wound up with the foxhead medallion (thank you Berelain!), because I figured if anyone could beat Demandred in a swordfight, it would be Lan.
…Sheathing the Sword: Too awesome a scene for words. Except: HA HA HA HA DEMANDRED’S DEAD! And YAY LAN LIVES.
Shadow/Dreadlords/Forsaken:
…The Samma N’Sei are creepy, obviously. Nasty buggers, too.
…Murdru Kar: Translation, please! No, I said translation, not stab! Anyone? Narg? Bueller?
…Fake Seals: EEP.
…Slayer: Shut up and DIE already!!
…The crystals are as creepy as the squishy metal in the Prologue.
…Hehehe, Moghedien hadn’t entered the battle for more than a few minutes before being blasted by cannon. I had hoped she would get blasted to bits, but being collared again was a more fitting fate for her. Déjà vu all over again!
…Shaisam: *shiver* Could Fain POSSIBLY get any more creepy??
Lanfear:
Different body, different name, same old Lanfear.
…I almost felt sorry for her when she and Rand had their little confrontation. (That’s got to be the best way in the universe of explaining how little one cares for another: literally opening your soul, complete with illustrations!)
…I was initially puzzled by her attachment to Perrin and willingness to help him. Of course, Lanfear being nice is a major red flag: woman is up to NO good. And of course she wouldn’t help when Perrin actually needed it. Thppft.
…And Lanfear was killed by the last person I’d expect—Perrin himself! That’s what she gets for trying to Compell someone as thickheaded as Perrin.
Graendal:
I’m still using that name, ’cause the other one is Uuuuug-ly!
…I noted the convenience of there being 4 battlefronts, with a great captain leading each, but didn’t twig to the significance until we heard about Graendal poking into Bashere’s dreams, and later when it became apparent that Bashere giving misinformation to his army.
…When we found out what Graendal was up to (invading Bashere’s dream), I immediately thought of Min’s viewing of Bashere from way back in CoT.
…You bitch… picking on Aiel! Put Rhuarc back!!
…Compelled: HA HA HA HA HA. Just what she deserves.
Sharans/Demandred:
DUN! We all knew they had to appear in the story at some point, and here they are! A strange bunch, certainly. And their leader… has a familiarity…
…DEMANDRED!! (For the record, my mom and I were in the camp placing Dem in Shara. Yay us?)
…Demandred was an idiot for assuming Rand would be leading the armies. Didn’t he know anything about the battle at Shayol Ghul??
…Sakarnen: Translation, please! Demandred was nutters for giving it to Taim, and thus leaving himself more vulnerable to Lan’s attack soon after. Even Taim thought he was mad. And now they’re both dead, HA!
Ogier/Loial:
…I was very happy when the Ogier showed up.
…Loial is still awesome, enough to live through the LB. LOIAL SMASH!
Faile/Olver/Horn of Valere/Bela:
…My first thought, when Faile was given the task of delivering the Horn, was: “This is going to set off another PLOD, isn’t it!” And I was almost right: her getting dumped into the Blight looked pretty bleak. And that bit where she lost the Horn had me gnashing my teeth like with the Gawyn scenes.
…I was glad that Olver got some POVs in this book.
…I didn’t expect one of Faile’s oathsworn supporters (Aravine) to turn traitor, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.
…Bela: Is awesome, but… NOOOOOoooooo! Why did she have to die??
…Olver the Hornsounder: I’m not sure why Leigh is upset about this; I thought it was a pretty awesome scene, especially because Jain Farstrider was revealed as a Hero!
…I thought it was cool that the Horn also summons dead wolves from T’A’R.
…So Faile lived, after all. (Yay?) Well, now she can be Queen… but who will be Lord of the Two Rivers? (Because surely, Perrin will be going with her to Saldaea.) My guess is Tam, because Tam al’Thor is awesome. *nods at Freelancer*
Elayne, the Valiant/Birgitte:
El is still headstrong and stubborn, unfortunately; thankfully, she didn’t do anything monstrously stupid like her idiot brother. (Good thing Birgitte has a medallion. XD) Birgitte continues to be hilarious, of course (and gets a rare POV).
…Elayne’s thought re: Talmanes: “He didn’t curse once. Pity.” made me laugh.
…El revealing her babes’ parentage is…sort of a good idea, I guess. But I do think Bashere was being nosy.
…El’s dinner scene with Rand was sweet. The “Seed” is an interesting concept. I’m glad that was explained finally, as we’ve been wondering how *angreal are made for a while (coincidentally, about 9 books).
…I was a little puzzled that El has a sword, though as a Queen leading her troops it makes sense. Of course, she had her Minor Moment of Stupid with it later.
…You come to realize how my brain is wired when the first thing I think of after Elayne’s speech is a speech from The Lord of the Rings films. (“For GONDOR!” XD)
…Nice save, El, with the thunderclap during the Draghkar attack.
…Elayne is lucky Birgitte put her foot down and dragged her out of Demandred’s sights.
…I was alarmed indeed when I saw “Hanlon” mentioned, so I wasn’t too surprised when he attacked Birgitte. But that didn’t make her death hurt any less, and his plan for Elayne was altogether wicked. He sure wasn’t expecting to be killed right back by a dead woman, was he!
…YAY BIRGITTE IS A HERO AGAIN. Her commanding of Elayne’s soldiers (even though she’s dead) made me grin, as did her comment about El having pudding for brains. XD
…And Birgitte had Olver dispose of the Horn. Very clever. Farewell, Birgitte… until the Horn calls you again.
Talmanes/Band/Cannons:
…Talmanes is lucky to be alive, with no small thanks to Nyn.
…Jak o’ the Shadows: Nice touch.
…The hiding of the cannons and using gateways to deliver cannonfire was a stroke of genius on Mat’s part. (I love Leigh’s jack-in-the-box analogy. XD)
Aes Sedai/Gateways/Bryne/etc.:
Of course the AS want to fight, Bryne! Dummy.
…Gateway spying: What a wonderful, crazy idea that is! I wonder why it wasn’t thought of before.
…Too bad Cadsuane and Moiraine didn’t have a staredown for us.
…The Sharan attack was quite a wake-up call for the AS. I was happy that Siuan + co. managed to escape (through a “spyway”, no less!). (Only to have my happiness crushed later.)
…Gateway communication: The Third Age equivalent of video conferencing!
…Siuan/Bryne: Dammit… that was harsh. As Leigh said, not even a death scene. Well, Min is never wrong, after all. (Burn me, but I liked Siuan!)
…Cadsuane: HAHAHAHAHA! Oh, Cads, you’re doomed now. XD I actually didn’t expect Cadsuane to live this long, but there it is.
Egwene, the Flame:
Oh, man. She was awesome until the very end… though, she was rather ignorant of her Warder’s utter foolishness. (Okay, so I guess that was more his fault than hers.)
…Leilwin’s save: Well, I guess that fulfilled Egwene’s dream of a Seanchan saving her.
…Egwene had plenty of awesome time with Vora’s sa’angreal, as expected.
…She sure had guts to dare Tuon to put on an a’dam. XD
…Bonding Leilwin: That, I did NOT expect. Seeing as how she released the bond fairly soon after, what was the point? (I remember idly wondering what Domon would think of it, but the question ended up being moot.)
…Flame of Tar Valon: Is so COOL. Crystallizing anti-balefire! And she offed Taim! HA HA HA HA!
…Fulfills her Dream of the pillar of glass from the beginning of the book that I didn’t even remember when it actually occured. *eyeroll* I probably didn’t remember it because I was too busy trying not to burst into tears. Rest in peace, Egs. *sniffle*
Gawyn, the Doofus:
Oh, you noble buffoon. You just couldn’t leave well enough alone, could you? You just had to use those stupid rings, didn’t you! Even Leilwin’s warning didn’t change his mind. And he was ten kinds of idiot for not confiding in Egwene—which as both husband and Warder he really ought have!
…Oh yes, there was plenty of teeth-gnashing for Gawyn while reading this book. He’d had a screw loose since the Tower split; his utterly crackbrained idea of going solo against Demandred certified him 100% nuts.
…His death I expected; but it was sad in part because I knew it would send Egwene on a furious rampage.
Galad, the Righteous:
Didn’t have a very big part in this book, but is still more awesome than his idiot brother.
…Mat teasing Galad about their quarterstaff fight was hilarious.
…I had a sinking feeling, when Mat sent Galad off with a foxhead to kill Sharan channelers, that he would somehow wind up fighting Demandred. Boy, I hate being right all the time…
…Galad put up a much better fight than Gawyn, even though he lost. It was quite a surprise for me when Berelain discovered him alive. Poor Annoura, though; Galad might have been in better shape had she known about the foxhead.
Mat, the Gambler:
Is awesome and bloody clever as always, and often hilarious.
…Mat’s reunion with Rand (and ensuing one-up contest) was bloody amusing.
…Mat being stuffed in fancy, non-combat-suitable clothes was amusing, even more so later when he tossed them. XD
…”Knotai”: NOT cool! If they’re going to call Mat something, call him something that sounds like “Gambler” or “son of battles”!
…I loved Mat’s reunion with Egs. Just what we expected, right? “You married WHO?!?” XD
…At first I thought Mat might be at risk from the great captain sabotage, but quickly realized Mat is too awesome to be sabotaged.
…Mat sure had his hands full as Marshal-General. And the DICE! The DICE came back!
…Mat was great playing the part of Indiana Jones: making it up as he went! XD
…In hindsight, I’m not sure Mat should have accepted kaf from a Forsaken. That having been said, though… it would have been hilarious if Mat had dumped his cup of kaf through the tabletop gateway onto Demandred’s head. XD (This fantasy is somewhat ruined by the fact that Dem is wearing a helmet.)
…”I’ll call her what I bloody well want.” XD
…Hinderstap: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Mat, you little genius you!
…Mat doesn’t get to be a Hero? Well, darn—I think he ought to be.
…Oh Mat, you crazy, flying into a war zone on a flying beastie!
…I was horrified when Mat was felled by Mashadar… and just as surprised when he got back up and killed Fain! A little sudden, but no less satisfying for me. I guess killing Fain/Mordeth made the dice stop.
…And of course Mat finds his hat. (Still channeling Indy.)
Tuon, the Dictator:
“Insane, but sincere.” That sums up just about all of the Seanchan nicely.
…Tuon & Mat’s relationship in general: Well, I’m with Leigh: I’m not sure how I feel about it.
…Really, Tuon?? Right in the middle of the garden?? Girl has no modest bone in her body. (At least they were productive, right?)
…Rand’s meeting with Tuon: *sigh of relief* At least he didn’t kneel before the… wait, yes he did. Sort of.
…Seriously, Tuon, that is NOT COOL shanghaiing Min to be your omen reader!!
…She and Mat put on a good act breaking up to fool the spy.
…It’s a pity we don’t get to see Tuon’s meeting with Hawkwing.
Perrin/Two Rivers/T’A’R/Wolves:
“This isn’t evil, it’s just incredibly stupid.” Boy, Perrin, you’ve got that right. XD
…Lord Tam: This brought to mind, oddly enough, a Jack Sparrow quote from At World’s End: “They’re just giving the bloody title away now!” XD Seriously, though, I think Tam is awesome and deserves it.
…The discovery that SG can now be entered in the Dream, and the time dilation, etc., reminded me of theories I’d seen regarding T’A’R in the LB.
…Rand giving Justice to Tam was cool, and so was the spar that followed.
…Perrin gets to learn a new trick! It’s pretty cool when he actually manages it.
…When the wolves first mention the Last Hunt, I was like, “Well, where are they??” Then later, of course: “Oh. Crap.”
…”Idiot” trick: I thought this was pretty funny.
…I’m glad Elyas made an appearance.
…Tam is awesome for most of the book.
…YAY SLAYER IS DEAD. Finally.
…I am supposing that Perrin killing Lanfear (did NOT expect that!) fulfills the other of the two times Perrin needed to be with Rand.
Cameos/One-Scene Wonders:
…Lind Taglien: I honestly didn’t catch this one on the first read, but that’s pretty cool. (I actually skimmed through her list of the names BwS included in the last three books, and saw several other names I recognized.)
…Urien: Huh… Well, if Hurin can reappear after 10 books then so can he.
…”Cynd”: That is creepy, even if wasn’t Lanfear. (I now understand it is a reader’s name chosen by BwS, but still.)
…Juilin Sandar made a cameo appearance, as did Teslyn, Leane, and Hurin. (Actually, Leane appears in an earlier scene, briefly caught by Demandred.)
…Ila and Raen and the Tinkers make an appearance (Morgase is mentioned in passing in the same scene).
Nitpicks/Disappointments.
Besides Bela, above:
…How did Egwene know about Moridin?
…Though Elaida (Suffa) did not make an appearance in this book (where was she?), I nearly expected her to show up at Egwene’s meeting with Tuon. (I wonder what would have happened? Would Elaida have tried to convince Tuon to kill Egs?)
…What happened to Morgase? Was she the woman with the same dress as Elayne that was killed in the battle?
…I’m sure others have lamented not having a Harry Potter-esque look forward in the epilogue, but that scene is wonderful as it is and I hope the Encyclopedia, when it comes, will tell us more tales of the Wheel.
Farewell, wind rising.
Farewell, Dragon riding on the winds of time.
Farewell, Wheel of Time… for now.
I’ll try to get to reading and responding to the 700+ comments this weekend (at least until game time). ;)
Bzzz™.
Thanks, Insectoid, for a near-definitive run-down of notable first-read reactions. “Near” because the list is inexhaustible, IMHO. I suspect the community discussion will move over to Leigh’s re-read starting next week; I’ve noticed that the frequency of comments here has slowed to a trickle.
I remember thinking as early as ACOS that there were too many things going on, hints being dropped, events being foreshadowed, etc. and doubting that RJ could possibly bring things to a “clean” conclusion. I hate it that he didn’t get the chance, and I salute BWS for a heroic effort. Still, I wonder about (among hundreds of other things) Lara and her “shocking past.” And, much more importantly, the unresolved future evolution of the Seanchan culture and its treatment of channelers. Here is opportunity for fan-fiction, and I’d be optimistic that with Mat and Min exerting high-level influence, and Tuon BEING a channeler, change is probable.
There aren’t many things I’d actually get into an on-line argument about, but I do feel that Egwene qualifies easily for HotH status. Her “battles” include the actual fight to defend the WT against the Seanchean Adair attack, and the TAR battle with Masaana and the BA, but I’d include her “battles” against Elaida, her heroism under prolonged torture, her winning respect from the Aiel WOs, and rise to leadership among the Salidar AS after being installed as a puppet. And, obviously, her exit taking out Taim. Really, what did Arthur Hawkwing (the freaking LEADER of the Horn cadre) do that was more impressive than what Egwene did? Yes, she was often self-righteous, too often inflexible, and probably not pleasant to be around. So what? She’s still a hero in my book.
Probably LOTS more discussion chapter-by-chapter starting on Tuesday.
Ah yes, Laras. All the hints of intrigue, danger, and heroic actions from her past. Supposition for a time that she might have been the disguise for Mesaana. That she was a darkfriend mole. And we get . . . bupkis. Oh yes, and also the theory that she was holding the Horn, and it turns out it was in the storeroom all along until the end.
So many loose ends. So deliciously painful, the not knowing.
insectoid@The_massive_wall_of_text@796
I did, although I’m sure many others came to that expectation independently as well.
So I’m up to 37 questions about various aspects of the saga which haven’t already been asked at other events. Or, taken from a different angle than one already left un-answered. Brandon is still employing the RAFO, with the understanding that apart from the planned encyclopedia, there is no reading left to do.
I hope to see an event report from last night’s signing before Wednesday, to make sure there are no duplications on my list. I know that there’s no way all of the questions will get asked, but perchance he’ll take a copy of the list for future consideration. And if not, whatever remains by the end of the tour can be made available to the JordanCon crowd.
All that said, I’ll still consider last-minute additions to the list. Any questions at all will be reviewed and I’ll re-order them by importance as objectively as I can. No, I’m not going to post the list of questions here. I will post whatever is asked, and whether or not answered, afterwards.
Time to play catsup, starting with the first 100 comments. I’ll try to not be too repetitive.
Fork @31:
re: Dannil: I… did not know that. Huh.
re: Heroes: No, they didn’t… though only a few were named of the hundred-or-so that came, so they could have been there.
re: Fain: I agree that it was a bit rushed. But just think how much heavier the book would be if he’d padded that plotline…
re: Verin’s letters: I agree… I want to know why Alanna ran off!
re: Joline: LOL!! I’m not sure she wouldn’t have tried taking a swing at Mat if they’d met. ;)
re: Movie scenes: Hm… how about the lava gate? That, I’d like to see.
littleleicesterfox @42:
That would have been… so beautiful… *wipes a tear*
re: Melaine: It’s entirely possible… but what are the odds?
skillr @60:
Well, evidently Demandred was insane. ;)
Loialson @63:
You’re not the only one; I forgot about the dream altogether. Long book. XD
Nimander @66:
Agreed. He totally deserved his promotion to full Asha’man. (A fitting “award”, as I was thinking of in my notes.)
thetipsytaveren @68:
Nice handle. ;)
re: Demandred: Totally agree.
dolphineus @70:
I can see it now… 101 Ways To Use Gateways: Travel, Attack, and Recreation, by Androl Genhald, Fourth Age. XD
SteelBlaidd @85:
Very apropos!
Blind @89:
YEAH!! :D
More later.
Bzzz™.
I will probably revisit or reiterate the two comments I make below during the Re-read. That said, I will also make them here. As I do not beleive that I have seen these sentiments expressed above in this thread.
Tuon
Since she was intoroducted on screen in ACoS, I have liked her character (especially during Mat’s courting of her). I did not like her insistence of maintaining the status quo with the use of damanaes once she learned that suldamaes can learn to channel by use of the adam. I liked that she realized that it was ok to acceinpt some of the Randlanders belief (even if different from Seanchan practices). A perfect example of this was Tuon’s acceptance of Beslan’s oath of fealty in TGS.
However, in AMoL, she showed herself not to be a leader who could help interate the Seachan empire into an active participant in the word affairs. Rather, she showed herself to be ruler who will do whatever it takes to a) hold onto her own poer; and b) “conquor” the world and re-make it into a Seanchan fiefdom. I can understand her uneasiness in having to be an ally with White Tower. That said, she should have adopted the same attitute as Galad did. (Namely, “Aes Sedai may be ‘witches who abuse the use of the One Power’; but, they are not the inherent evil that Shadowspawn are. Further, we must put aside our dislike and ally with them to fight the Shadow.”)
Yet, Tuon actually beleived that the Seanchan could withhold their armies from the war that the Randland Armies of Light were fighting. Tuon had to realize that she could not simply reappear through gateways back in Seanchan, quell the various factions, reform additional armies, bring them back to Randland, and defeat the combined Shadowspawn horde and Sharan army. Also, she out-and-out lied to Egwene. As somebody who trains damae, she knows new damae are often broken when trained. Further, they are not provided a life of privilege. Rather, damae are treated as animals. Those who become Seanchan are treated by their families as if they never existed. I was glad that Egwene called her on the carpet for this lie.
Likewise, Tuon’s discussion with Mat about breaking the Dragon’s Peace becuase it simply was a peace of paper. If a leader does not honor its nation’s treaties (even if the reason that it was made is no longer present), then that leader is nothing more than a tyrant.
(It is important to remember that just because Seanchan (and almost every other nation in WoT) is a monarchy does not in of itself mean that the government is evil. Many of us live in countries that have a democratic or republic form of government. Yet some nations are governed by a monarchy. Yet the indivduals in those nations still can live in relative peace and have many of the same day to day freedoms that people living in democratic or republican societies.)
Gawyn
Unlike Toun, I did not like Gawyn for much of the series. I thought he was an immature aristocrat. He was envious of others who were “fighting the good fight” whereas Gawyn was hold up in villages around Tav Valon (admittedly those were his orders). I respected that he took a side initially in the Tower Civil War – rallying the Younglings when the Warders were trying to break out Siuan and Leane before they were stilled. I did not like when he took the peddler’s word about the murder of his mother and sister by Rand without further investigation. I also did not like when he continued to follow Eladia after he reasonablly suspected that she wanted to have he and the Younglings killed. Most of all, I did not like how he refused to accept Egwene as an Aes Sedai in TGS and ToM (before she bonded him).
Gawyn’s inner monolgue in TGS whil sparring with Sleete demonstrate that Gawyn knew what it meant to be a Warder (in the same way that Egwene asks Alanna what it truly means to be a Green after Egwene’s Acceptance testing). Nevertheless, his actions and attitude throughout the Last Battle (both while defending Egwene in Kandor and during the Battle at the Fields of Merrilor).
When Gawyn unilaterally went to try to kill Demandred, he not only risked his own life, he risked Egwene’s (due to a potential distraction from suffering the effects of a loss of a Warder). His actions were the exact opposite of a Warder’s.
I did not expect Gawyn to live through the Last Battle. However, I would have hoped that his death would have been honorable and possibly even in defense of Egwene’s life. His death was neither. IMO, Gawyn was consistently the most selfish of the Light Siders.
Query: would Egwene have been able to defeat Taim with his Sa’angreal and the Sharan channelers if she did not have the emotions resulting from Gawyn’s death?
Another question that does not have anything to do with my above points: Do we think that Sleete and Hattori (his Aes Sedai) survived the Last Battle? What about Meidani?
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
Is it Tuesday yet? *** Twitch ***
Anyhow I was going thru withdrawal, checked in here and
I found an epic piece by Insectoid.
Thank You! Very well thought out and reflected many of the comments and questions I was thinking about.
A few other things I was left wondering about.
we never found out what the “horrible” rumors that were spread about the Daughter of the Nine Moons.
Where did the Shaido end up?
I’ll think of more later…
Those who become Seanchan are treated by their families as if they never existed.
That might be Bode’s reaction if Mat supports Tuon’s use of damane.
There are two characters who like to rename people: Tuon and the DO. Both are associated with ravens. What else do they have in common?
Birgit 804: I think you mean “damane” instead of “Seanchan” but yes.
And about Seanchan/DO connection: I realize that the Forsaken were mostly in hibernation (except for Ishy) when Artur Hawkwing lived and afterward when the Seanchan empire was being established and all. And the DO had only small “contact” with the world for most of this time. Still, I can’t help wonder if somehow the DO influenced the very beginnings of Seanchan culture and the enslavement of channelers. Not only channelers, but the treatment of “property” in general and the attitude of ruthless dog-eat-dog “un-natural selection” competition (assasination by family members apparently routine) sure seems like something the DO encourages among his own “chosen.” And, of course, we know that Semi was in control of Seanchan later on. I would not be at all surprised if the DO was influential in the creation of the Seanchan culture.
I thought of a question for someone attending a signing to kindly ask:
Did Morgase survive the Last Battle?
If Mellar or his men had killed her I think he would have enjoyed telling this to Elayne. OTOH Morgase was in the same area from where they came from so they might have killed her without knowing. Or she might’ve been one of the causalties from the trollocs sent by Moghedien at the end.
Brandon might tell us of her fate as he did for Settale Anan, or this maybe answered in the Encyclopedia and they wouldn’t want to reveal too much yet.
Either way this doesn’t qualify as a loose thread left open because it’s realistic and is reasonable for the readers to know. Loose threads are the future relationships between Seanchan/everyone else and WT/BT, the fate of Kandor, Perrin and Faile vs TR/Saldea…
OTOH whether the former ruler and mother of the current ruler of the most powerful nation in the Westlands, of whom we’ve read enough pages to fill out a good-sized novel by herself, is common sense.
I hope I’m making a mountain from a mole hill and Brandon simply answers: “yeah, of course she survived, I thought it was obvious” or (hopefully not) “a trolloc ate her”.
Annnnnd Finished – Finally.
Got the end onwhich i have been horibly spoiled for weeks and…. cacckeld like a mad man. It was exactly right.
some favorite bits
“Don’t I get to be a Hero too Rand?” (this is why we keep getting character side storys.
Mat: so umm ama I one of You guys?
AH: No you have the points but dident get picked
Mat: Thank the Creator
Haral Luhan: Perrin you must let go you concious self and act on instinct.
Galad being not exactly sure what he feels about being Rands half brother.
Dem: You tink your going to win?!?!?!?!
Lan: I don’t have to win. Ijust have to not lose.
Min: Suin, where’s Gareth? Your going to die!!!!
Suine: Girl, I’ve got more important thing to wory about. If it happens it happens.
Grady: MAt Cuthon you are an unmitigated bastard! Im going to open this gate way then you better watch out. Hey wern’t they dead yesterday?!?!?
Tuon(to min): HMM your better at this than I though.
Min(thinking): crap
All in all: Happy dance for great book. I has a sad for story being over.
I was going to save it for the re-read, but SteelBlaidd’s wonderful reactions @807 pushed the button.
Did any of us get everything we wanted from this story? I doubt it. Do all of us have something we still very much wish to know about people/places/events? Very likely.
All of the nitpicks, all of the complaints, all of the unrequited plot curiosities, point to the most centrally remarkable thing of all.
We, the readers, were given such a close look into the details of this story, that we have quite literally taken ownership of the story as it has become a part of our own experience. We none of us know Frodo Baggins half as well as we know Rand al’Thor, Nynaeve al’Meara, and dozens of other characters. Their strengths, their foibles, their quirks, how they think of themselves, and how they think others think of them.
The “eight deadly words” regarding fiction being “I don’t care what happens to these people“, Jordan made us care. Every significant character produces reactions of passion in the reader, whether in their favor or not. You say you hate Gawyn? Jordan did that. You say you loathed Aran’gar? Jordan did that. A part of you died when Bela died? Birgitte? Rhuarc? Mat? (Even when he dies he doesn’t die)
This story, with all of the myriad layers of involvement, the connections and expectations, the mindsets, the passions, the surprises, the failures and triumphs, we have taken hold of it all, and even while saying that sometimes it was too much, or too deep, or too slow, we want more.
We will never again see its like. Not to include the hundreds of threads tying the story to our own world’s history, culture and mythos.
Freelancer@808: Where’s the “Like” button?
You are so right. I’m actually depressed from withdrawal. Thank goodness for Leigh’s reread starting tomorrow.
Faculty Guy @797, ShaggyBella @803:
You’re welcome! I’m not sure what possessed me to do that; probably one of those “on a whim” things when I picked up the book, like, “Maybe I should take notes?” I did make the comment easy to find, though. ;);)
Free @808:
*claps* Well spoke, sir!
Tek @809:
I think it’s mislabeled as “Bookmark”. :P Seriously though, Tor, we do need one of those.
Bzzz™.
FacultyGuy @@@@@805 – birgit’s comment @@@@@804 was a direct quote from AndrewB @@@@@802 – in which context, it’s much funnier. And makes sense.
@@@@@ everyone – Please, someone help me out here. In a conversation the other day, someone was insisting that near the beginning of the book, we were told that Vora’s sa’angreal does not have the safeguards that protect a channeler from drawing too much power, that being the reason Egwene could draw so much she killed herself. I don’t recall reading that, and I can’t find it at all, anywhere in the book. Does anyone else remember reading that? Or anything like that? If so, can you please point me in its direction? I’m thinking we’ll be revisiting the discussion next week, and I want to know if I missed that little detail.
I remember seeing that in the comments but not in the book (doesn’t mean that it definitely wasn’t there).
Callandor had that particular…feature…because of low manufacturing standards during the war according to RJ.
I’ve always assumed that to mean there was no theoretical limit to what could be drawn through the sword, just a limit you could draw without horribly killing yourself. Other sa’/anreal allow you draw power up to a certain point. Whether it’s a multiplier or a fixed amount is a matter of debate that has been much discussed elsewhere, but is only tangentally relevent here.
Regardless of the exact mechanics of the *angreal, unless Vora’s sa’angreal was made at roughly the same time as callendor with the same situation, it wouldn’t likely have that defect.
That being said, Verin mentioned that the Choden Kal–which didn’t have a defect–would burn a channeler weaker than Moraine or Suian pre-weakinging to a cinder, and that they wouldn’t be able to do anything more than simply hold the power. So there is a threshhold of strength to safely use at least some sa’angreal.
There is a caveat to her assessment in that she incorrectly guessed Logain to be weaker than Moraine, but if she is more or less correct than it may be that some of the sa’angreal will allow you to draw more than you can handle even if it’s not more than the sa’angreal itself can handle.
Fatigue might have played a part as well. As a channeler gets tired from over use of the power, the amount she can safely draw goes down.
If for instance the sa’angreal allows you to draw the power based on a modifier of your highest potential regardless of your current state, then if you come in at say 60% of your usual strength you could easily over extend yourself drawing as much as it allowed you to.
Or everything thing I just surmised is completely wrong and I’m spewing nonsense. 50-50 odds most days…
Freelancer, Wetlandernw, forkroot, others @@@@@ many
I would post here constantly if I didn’t log in and see that you all have already said what I wanted to say, but better!
I appreciate the discussion that I see here. It has really given me a greater appreciation of the series as a whole.
Thanks also to Leigh! While I don’t always agree with her assessment of the story or the characterizations, I am thankful for her dedication to this reread and she does keep it interesting!
Just one quick specific about the story:
Was I the only one that read the paragraph where Thom throws his knife into Cadsuane’s back about five times to make sure I was reading it correctly? I finally kept reading and saw the rest, but I was truly dumbfounded at first!
Wetlandernw @811 (re Vora’s sa’angreal): I aslo remember reading that. I believe it is in the scene where Egwene sacrificies herself during the Last Battle. The scene where she crystalizes Taim and almost all of the Sharan channelers on the Heights using the “Flame of Tar Valon.”
(I am at work and cannot confirm.)
Personally, I think that is a great name for the weave. I hope that other Aes Sedai call it that. Although after the Last Battle, I am not sure how much that weave would be used. I realize there are Dreadlords still at large. I wonder if they will continue to use weaves of balefire like they did during the Last Battle.
Query: are female Dark Side channelers called Dreadladies?
Another question for anybody out there: At some point in WoT, we are told that during the War of Shadows, both sides independently stopped using balefire as it threatened to unravel the entire Pattern. Why during the Last Battle did the Shadow not have this concern? I understand that the Chosen and the Dreadlords were following orders from the Dark One. Did he not want to unmake the Pattern during the Age of Shadows?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Wookster@813
Yeah, Thom killing “Cadsuane” shocked me too until I read on.
Others have wondered why Thom was enough to stop the BA who tried to get by him. Why didn’t they attack him vs. trying subterfuge?
My guess is that they didn’t want to alert anyone inside by channeling. They could do the Mask of Mirrors weave well away from the mountain entrance, and figured that it would fool Thom. After all, most people, even very intelligent people, can be fooled by MoM (e.g. Demandred somewhat and Taim a LOT.)
They didn’t understand that Thom is probably the second-smartest character in all of the WoT books (gotta give Harid Fel his due.) Add his native intelligence to the extra sensitivity he gets from the warder bond and you’ve got someone very difficult to fool.
Thom was smart to keep hiding the bodies – obviously a stack of corpses would warn the next one who tried the same trick.
AndrewB@814
I’m pretty sure that “Dreadlord” is the proper term regardless of gender.
Wookster125 @@@@@813 – I have to admit I did a major double-take – but instead of going back, I read on as fast as I could, because I knew something was wrong with it. Had to figure out if it wasn’t really Thom, or wasn’t really Cadsuane, or… what, because I knew she wasn’t Dark. That was quite a scene!
AndrewB @@@@@ 814 – Female Dark Side channelers are called Dreadlords. RJ was quite specific about that.
About balefire – the DO didn’t have quite the same level of influence in the War of the Shadow as he did in the last months. My theory, anyway, is that he didn’t have quite the force to push them into using it so freely. Perhaps they were all a little… twisted… by their time sealed in the Bore so that they no longer found it so worrisome.
I found the bit you mentioned about the sa’angreal – thanks. Still not quite sure whether that was a flaw in the sa’angreal, or if it was made that way on purpose – and not sure why it was never mentioned before.
forkroot @@@@@ 815:
“After all, most people, even very intelligent people, can be fooled by MoM.”
*blush* Yep, it’s true.
Ohhh. You meant Mask of Mirrors.
Nevermind.
Wetlandernw @8116 — here is my guess as to why it was never mentioned that Vora’s sa’angreal lacked the safeguard. Prior to this, we had only seen the sa’angreal used in limited situations. Two that I can recall. First, was in healing Mat. Second, was during the Seanchan raid.
We did not get a Siuan POV regarding her use of VS. During the Seanchan raid, Egwene at first was limited to being subject to the effects of forkroot tea. Thereafter, she may have been limited by her circles. She was primarily using novices and Accepted. Such a circle may not have caused her to reach the dangerous levels of VS. I suspect that the lack of a safeguard was known to those experienced Aes Sedai who studied it and/or used it. At some point during Egwene’s usage of VS, she came to realize it has no safeguards. Alternatively, the lack of safeguard feature was common knowledge throughout the Tower. Novices were taught this when they learned about various angreals and sa’angreals that the Tower owned. As it was something that was general knowledge among the Tower, RJ did not feel the need to mention it. We were not told/shown everything that a novice would learn.
Regards,
AndrewB
Some additional thoughts/comments:
Several comments mention the wish to have seen a Hawkwing/Fortuona meeting on screen…some of the earlier comments seem to imply that Hawkwing would somehow set Fortuona straight on the Seanchan misguided beliefs; chaining Aes Sedai, et al. But i’m not so sure Hawkwing would not be in total support of the Seanchan view, because the Hawkwing of history had NO love for AS. Hell, he besieged Tar Valon, so his hatred/distrust of AS is documented in the series, regardless of his actions as the leader of those called by the horn, I think he would be more likely to tell her to “chain as many as you can”.
2nd
I think this may have been an oversight on the writers part, but in Mat’s POV just before the start of the last stand at Merrilor, when he’s hiding from his duties and the Deathwatch Guards. He approaches Egwene and in his inner monologue he notes Gawyn and “…that Seanchan Woman” with her. We all know Mat and Leilwin have their recent past, so it seems odd and incongruous that he doesn’t have any interaction with her in this scene, not even a nod hello. Or at least you would think he would refer to her by name in his thoughts. It’s a little thing, but it kind of bugged me that he thought of her in a way someone that didn’t know her might think of her as just “that Seanchan woman” whose been hanging around Egwene. I wonder if anyone else caught that and thought the same as I.
818. AndrewB
The problem is not “How is it that we did not hear until now that Vora’s sa’angreal has no safeguards?”
The problem is: “Why is it that all sa’angreal have safeguards, until the plot needs one particular one to not have them?”
819. DMAC
re: Mat and Egeanin.
That looks like a very good catch on your part. I don’t have the books with me right now, so I cannot add anything.
About Thom,
I don’t know if, or how the Black Ajah sisters would have known that Thom had become Moiraine’s Warder, but that would be reason enough to try to sneak by him. Attack Thom, and Moiraine is alerted to incoming trouble.
Don’t circles prevent drawing too much Power? In earlier books Vora’s sa’angreal was usually used in circles (Healing Mat, defending the Tower against the Seanchan).
In the AOL channelers understood the dangers of balefire better than the current Dreadlords. The Forsaken know, of course, but the Ashaman and Samma N’Sei probably don’t, and Turned channelers might ignore the danger even if they do know.
I don’t have a page number, but Vora’s sa’angreal not having a buffer is in her death scene
So. I’ve been listening to the New Spring audiobook after completing AMoL, and got to Moiraine’s test, when it hit me. All those ter’angreal, such as the Acceptatron must create Dreamshards. We know they’re somehow related to TAR, but isolated…it makes sense.
I’m with JonathanLevy on this one, Vora’s Sa’angreal lacking a buffer seems like a retcon.
Intentionally building *angreal without buffers they were designed to have would be roughly akin to building a commercial airliner jet without breaks or landing gear of any kind. There is simply no way to justify it as a feature for something intended for use by a living individual.
In chapter 16 of TDR Egwene mentions the wand for one of Aniya’s lecture, she said a strong Aes Sedi might be powerful enough with it to topple Tar Valon’s walls. That to me says the wand was orignally intended to have limits.
Whether it was RJ or Sanderson who changed that doesn’t really matter. Egwene’s death scene was an important one and there had to be something to make her beating Taim plausible.
In defense of RJ/TJ, there’s this report from back in 2005 from a KoD signing report:
It’s arguable that he intended all along to have several of the (strongest?) sa’angreal be flawed in some way. Callandor‘s flaw has been known to us for a long time, while Vora’s wand has been assumed safe. It’s never been mentioned, but that proves nothing. As birgit says, we haven’t seen it used much before this; twice in circles, once when Siuan simply used it to Travel out of the WT with Egwene, Bryne and Gawyn. It might well be that everyone knew about this particular flaw but didn’t have any reason to mention it.
Yes, it feels like a retcon, but that doesn’t prove anything either. So we didn’t know it lacked a buffer. We didn’t know Demandred was in Shara either, but that doesn’t make his appearance with the Ayyad a retcon. We didn’t know Mat’s connection with the Horn had been broken when he died at Caemlyn, but that doesn’t make it a retcon to allow Olver to blow the Horn here. If we’d been told it did have the safety, and now here we find out it didn’t, that would be a retcon.
As it is, well, I think we just have to accept that it was something we weren’t told before. After all, if we’d known about the lack of a buffer, we’d have been expecting Egwene to draw too much, right? There would have been people quibbling about her defense of the WT in TGS and complaining that she should have died then. (We can quibble about it now, if we want, I guess.) I think we have to assume that, as any good control freak should, Egwene had always been able to control herself and not over-draw when she used it against the Seanchan (the circle may have helped) and when she used it on the Kandori battlefield (having a Warder/husband may have helped, too). When she went after the Ayyad, her own controls were gone – set aside due to grief, desperation, vengeance, exhaustion and the knowledge that she had already done herself permanent damage. She knew that when she let go of the OP, she’d be burned out, and she knew that this time, she could do more good for the WT and the world by going out in a blaze of glory than by staying alive – so she died.
Wetlandernw@826
Actually Demandred being in Shara was subtly hinted at by RJ some volumes back. I can’t remember the exact quote, but I think it was in WT intelligence reports that the announcement of the Dragon Reborn had caused fighting in Shara. So no feeling of retcon there at all, IMO.
As for Mat’s connection to the Horn – what a cool plot trick! RJ laid out the rules – the connection holds until you die. Then he made it clear that Mat did die, fulfilling the Finn’s prophecy.
The fact that in-story characters assumed he was linked to the Horn was perfectly in sync with other cases where he had characters hold wrong beliefs. Again, no feeling of retcon to me.
There was no such foreshadowing about the flaw in Vora’s sa’angreal. It would have been nice if it had been mentioned at some point that this was known (OK, actually it was mentioned – right before Egwene’s death – I meant earlier.) So I’m with those who felt it was a bit retconnish – but not overly annoying.
I’m pretty sure that birgit@822 is correct that a circle provides the same protection as a buffer, and as you correctly note, the only time we see it used without a circle is just for a modest gateway.
Personally, if I were doing another printing of TDR, I’d toss in a quick line about the flaw in the scene where Mat is healed. To me, it’s the same as fixing the harp tuning reference or Thom’s “second best knives”. Others may feel differently.
Looking up those little nit picky things is so much easier using a Kindle and an eBook. Type in a phrase and hit “search.” I feel a little bit lost without it.
I am listening to the Audiobook for the second time and realize there were some bits I missed. I must have fallen asleep or dozed thru a few parts. A few interesting suprises. (Did I really hear that Mat had pink ribbins on his hat??? I am not sure. I will have to wait and see.)
One good thing about reading the real book, you can go back and reread a section and also see when someone is speaking in ALL CAPS.
ShaggyBella @828 – Yes, you did. “Why was his hat banded with pink ribbon, though?” :)
Re pink ribbons in Mat’s hat: in honor of Tylin?
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
On FB someone just posted this:
“Moghedian is not captured? She had a huge flow of the true source when the adam was clamped on her did she not? Did Rand not kill Semirhage while collared by using the true source?”
My reply: “She is such a scary cat..she would never think to use the TS as Rand did. She was captured previously in TAR where she thought she was the expert and could never think outside the box to get away. She is captured.”
His reply: “Deborah, she is a genius. Coward or not, she is a genius. There is ZERO possibility she wouldnt think to attempt to grasp the true source. Zero.”
My reply: “You are entitled to your opinion.”
Now I ask for your opinions.
Shaggy Bella@829 and AndrewB@830 I assumed that the pink ribbons on Mat’s hat were a result of the ‘words’ that he and Fortuona shared after she found out that Egwene had been Damane and that Mat had known.
Mis-likes to imagine men in pink ribbons
Another interesting tidbit…
Pg 412 After Perrin”s battle with Heartseeker (Graendal) in the Wolf Dream.
She did ask for it… Oh yeah!
Moggy is captured after the Last Battle. If it happens after Rand sealed the Bore she probably cannot use the TP any more.
@819 Mat and Leilwin..that caught my attention too, an irritation like a tiny rock in your shoe! Writing/editing error. Do they make corrections after publication?
@824 I had thought about the connection between TAR and testing ter’angreal at the WT and Rhuidean. Egwene mentioned to Nynaeve after her testing that she should not have been tested due to her extensive experience in TAR.
@834 That was mentioned later in the thread, of course he said scenes were not always chronological in the books. Really doesn’t matter, we all have opinions/observations…that’s what makes the discussions so interesting! Thank you birgit!
Another one that brought me up short is ‘arabesque’. It was in a description of the balcony in the Tarasin Palace. I thought of Middle East design in our world.
Throughout the Last Battle, I have been wondering exactly how many Aes Sedai survived! I mean, the Aes Sedai of the White Tower have such a strong image and influence- it’s crazy that it’s apparently already shrinking number of initiates has been hacked away throughout the novel. I was looking into this answer and have come up with a rough estimate of 300-400 out of the original 900-1000 that were alive at the beginning of the series. Here is how I came to the conclusion:
Dead:
Approx 50 died before the Last Battle even starts due the White Tower Schism, Darkfriends/Black Ajah, Bubbles of Evil, and various battles. At least half of these cannot be Black Ajah as their deaths occurred after the purge of these sisters. Many others could not be BA either, as they were killed by other BA or Darkfriends.Approx- 210 Black Ajah -If not executed or killed, definitely on the “do not call” list.Approx- 30 Turned. A line in AMoL mentions about half the sisters taken by the Asha’man have been Turned. The six accompanying Pevara have as well. Several were killed by the Androl and Pevara team. As there is no known way of reversing this, if any survived they would also be in the same group of the BA)Approx 120 of Egwene’s Army in the initial Sharan attack. We are informed that about 120 Aes Sedai died, and that about 250 were left. Approx 165 of Egwene’s Army. Very rough estimate- however, after the initial attack by the Sharan’s, that left about 250 Aes Sedai alive in this group. Lyrelle’s group of approximately 40 would rejoin Egwene after the first attack occurred. We are informed that after Egwene wipes out the Sharans that over half the Aes Sedai have perished in battle. That would have to be more than 165, really, but we don’t know whether the casualties are just over half, or far more.Approx 30 of Rand’s Army. AMoL mentions that Rand has a certain number of Aes Sedai sworn to him, as well there being a few with the Dragonsworn- (giving me rough estimate of 45-50). Thom observes later on that 1 in 10 of those on the field are still living. I give the Aes Sedai a little more credit, but with the Dreadlords and Graendel….not much.Unknown Number of Casualties- Lan has Approx 20 at the beginning of the battle. With so many battlefronts, I am sure there could not be too many of them. With the 4 Generals being manipulated, I am sure many of those died. The same goes for Elayne’s army. The book makes no mention of how many she has with her (and she really relies on the Kinswomen, anyway), but several would have to be present. This doesn’t account for various other off screen deaths that may have occurred elsewhere during the Battle.
Of the accounted that would leave us with about 645 Aes Sedai dead. (And we know there is more than this). And top of that, we have to realize some may have died off screen before the battle in plots with Darkfriends. (Suian mentions several sisters missing altogether). And of course, our lovely Seanchan friends currently have in their “possession” about 30 sisters. I would put the number of survivors around 300 in all honesty. Well, was just curious how the White Tower looked after the Battle. It is in for a change for sure. I wonder if the Encyclopedia will tell us anything more?
Seth – Nice analysis. I expect you’re pretty close. That was one of the questions I had intended to ask Brandon on Tuesday, but I forgot to take my list of questions, and that was one of the 1/3 or so I couldn’t remember over the course of the evening.
@833 ShaggyBela – that caught my ear yesterday, listening to the audiobook! I started laughing. I totally skipped over it in my first read – more TR chivalry, we’ve heard about it all 14 books, blah blah blah. What great foreshadowing! What a payoff!
Be careful what you wish for, Lanfear!
Some interesting posts going up here – but the thread’s running *very* slowly for me, and when I try to post a response it freezes my computer for a minute or two. So I don’t know how much I’ll get to interact with any of these interesting discussions.
I have therefore posted a huge (but I hope intesting) Wall of Text on the Amol Reread part 2 thread. It’s about Demandred, and my theories on what the title “Dragon” meant in the Age of Legends, and my guess that “Bao the Wyld” is an alternate title for “The Dragon Reborn.” Would love some input, WoT gurus!
On the flaw in Vora’s Sa’angreal and the buffering effect of circles:
1. I agree that it felt like a retcon. Wetlander makes me feel like it’s at least a reasonable one, and gives good reason (avoiding telegraphing Egwene’s death) to think that maybe it wasn’t a retcon after all.
2. Buffering effect of circles – going from memory, when Elayne is explaining how to link to the Sea Folk windfinders (early POD, before using the Bowl of the Winds), she mentions that you can’t be forced to draw more than you can handle by the leader of a circle. (This seems to go against what is done to Moridin via Callandor – handy flaw, there, crystal sword!) I *believe* she also mentions the buffering effect of (normal, non-flawed) angreal, as well. Anyway, that’s the scene I’ll reread when I get home in a few hours. My recollection, though, is that while a member of a circle, you can’t be forced (normally) to draw too deeply on the One Power. This wouldn’t necessarily preclude the leader of the Circle drawing too much OP herself. Of course, during TGS, forkrooted Egwene had only a tiny trickle of her own power, so that wouldn’t have been an issue. (So Egwene could’ve safely used VS’s by linking and then drinking forkroot tea. Small wonder she didn’t resort to that!)
chaplainchris @841 – FWIW (and this will be in my signing report), I did ask Brandon about Vora’s sa’angreal – whether it was in the notes that it lacked the buffer, and we just hadn’t heard about it. He said yes, it was always there in RJ’s notes about the “white fluted wand” – though Brandon gets credit for giving the thing a name.
moondivatx @831 – It’s very clear, if you actually read the epilogue again, that the DO has been re-imprisoned by the time Moghedien is captured. Whether she would think of it or not, the True Power is not available to her any more. The other guy was mis-connecting the previous scene with Moghedien, after Demandred’s death, when she disguised herself as Demandred using the TP and got blasted by the dragons for her trouble. When she’s picked up by the Seanchan, she’s using the OP, and has just got done thinking about how the Great Lord has fallen, and with him imprisoned again, he can’t even punish her. So no, she not only wasn’t holding a massive flow of the TP, it was no longer available for her to use if she wanted to.
I just belatedly finished the book 3 hours ago (started 2 days ago, my slowest first read of a WoT book ever, I admit; I have toh) and I just had to come back and read this post before I don’t get enough sleep tonight.
I haven’t followed the reread regularly in a long while. I regret that.* Leigh, I missed you, and the lolz you give me.
*In writing this I think I pinpointed one big reason why I really hated Rand for so long, and it comes with a free side of highlighting a flaw I hate in myself.
Rand and I both have trouble letting go of things. You think he’s OCD too?
Disclaimer: I am not (diagnosed, at least) OCD.
What I get from the end of the book basically, is that this fight is eternal, and every third age the dark one puts Rand through this, and Rand owns it and makes the original seal. Then probably the fifth age (Age of Legends) comes back around and then they open the bore starting it all again. It’s funny it tells you how the series will end in the book, there is no beginning or end, but it was a beginning. Great Read. To bad Jordan didn’t get to see it finished, and to bad this series doesn’t get the recognition it deserves.
The FLAME OF TAR VALON. :O The opposite of balefire. Oh wow, it blew my mind. Something that has been there all along — I see it in a new light now and I love that revelation!
I am still waiting for the ebook release.
The release date for the ebook version, 09-April-13, has been public for quite some time now. There are other books in the world, to pass the time until then. Just saying.
What an end … Finishing well a Fantasy saga is not an easy thing , if I liked but not loved the end of Steven Erikson’s saga Malazan of the Fallen , Robert Jordan’s saga was really much more better . I felt so sad when I closed for the last time A Memory of Light ! I even re-read some of the first books , funny how Mat , Perrin and Rand were , Egwene and Nynaeve , too . All everyone grew up and became badass !
Moiraine & Lan … How the uncrowned king did not care for them for finally support them and care for them . Lan , for Rand , was like a big brother and an uncle : always full of advice but never pompuous . I loved the scenes with him and how the guy killed Demandred ! I would have loved to see Nynaeve seeing that her husband survived and I didn’t really understand if they met before the last battle like Lan saw Moiraine … They always were one of my favorite couple .
Rand was pretty cool , such a badass , so self-confident and such a warrior . Really the girls won’t tell Tam his son survived ? I really liked his scene lanfear , stupid girl , of she would have done nothing , she’d be alive . She wanted to be smater … Always funny how one of his girl take the command when with him
Egwene never been one of my favorite character but her death made me sad . Siuan’s death really hurt , loved the character and again more her romance with Bryne , loved to follow those two together , not them or Egwene remembered what Min told them …. Sadly , really sad for their deaths , oh and they wanted to get married …
I would have liked to see Rand , Perrin & Matrim reunited . I liked Rand seeing again Mat , happy that Rand didn’t kneel to Tuon , or sort of . Or did this with grace ;) Tuon … Always loved the girl but I was stunned when she said that she , perhaps , won’t keep her word and fight the ones who fought the Last Battle , haven’t I read that she kept her word ? If Mat wouldn’t have been there … and the damane thing makes me uneasy . Schocked that they did the honky ponky in front of everyone ! What ? and she is naked and that’s okay for her … I would have loved to know how those two will get along int he future , and the Seachans with the others nations ? Loved Mat the commander , and how everyone figured out that the Great Captains were not themselves (sort of) good idea like this Mat used ‘his’ old memories
Liked Perrin and Faile . How she tried to hide and keep the horn safe . Liked Talmanes and how Sanderson involved two gay characters .
Really liked Androl and Pevara , the moment in the Black Tower . too bad we won’t have them more . Poor Galad but such a stupid boy with Gawyn ! Bouh such a man thing this pride ;) Poor Rhuac , he was a very good leader and always a good man to Rand .
A very good ending but it is so sad that we won’t have more of Aes Sedai , channelers , that we won’t know how the nations will succeed between each other , if Perrin , Rand & Mat will see again each other how if the Seachans will be a pain in the a** etc … after ten years it’s weird to leave the saga . Before I knew an another book was going to be published , not this time …
The whole end of world Rand vs the Dark one where you can’t live without me guides the final solution can also be seen in a manga called Naussicaa.
Found the ending satifying even if i, too, would have liked some more “coming together again” moments.
Was i the only one to be disapointed that we had to wait the end of the last book for Egwene to die? I couldn’t stand her, she takes the second spot on my most hated WOT character’s list, and she didn’t really redeem herself in this book, she just carry on as usual : an egotistic child in charge of things she doesn’t understand trying to maintain illusion by ordering people around instead of listenning to those who know what they’re doing.
I kind of cheered when she died even if it was too late since we had to endure her all the way through.
Not really moved by deaths in this book ( i’ll admit that i swore a little when Siuan and Bryne got it) because it’s the end and wether people survive or not has a lot less impact than when the story keeps going without them (I guess Ingtar and Verin’s death are the only final death scenes that had a powerfull impact for me, with Moiraine’s fake death).
I agree with what Leigh said about Mat, i would have liked to see him a bit more in the last book, some missed oportunities with the trio Tuon/Mat/Min which should have been exploited a lot more.
All in all, i really liked this book (and the 2 others from Sanderson, even if i was on the fence concerning his treatment of Mat in his first try, it got better with the next 2), i guess i just can’t be totally positive about it because it’s over and i didn’t take the time to “mourn” yet.
Thankfully, ASOIAF still has some years of mysteries to keep me guessing.
Thanks a lot for your insight Leigh, be it on WOT or on ASOIAF, i don’t usually coment on your posts so consider this a packaged Thanks for the hours of enjoyment i had reading your thoughts on those 2 massive stories.
In the final analysis, Good cannot exist without Evil. Rand finally realized that fact and that all men (and women) must choose. I have two favorite parts of the entire story. First, The Aes Sedai, in general, think they know best and they are proven to be flawed.
When Rand goes to the White Tower, they have the “circle” ready to “calm” him if he “flares up”. They are terrified of what he is capable of doing. At this point the entire membership of the Aes Sedai had no power over Rand and the Amyrlin Seat began to understand when Rand departed the White Tower.
Second, Rand became similar to what “Paul Muad’Dib” became in Dune.
Rand could the weave the “web” as he willed. He willed his pipe to be lite.
But he walked away from it all, to let individuals choose, ie, Rand chose the path of Good.
It had rushed parts, a 14 book series should not have felt rushed at the ending. Leigh is correct that their should have been more scenes with all the Two Rivers folk in the same room or more Lan and Moraine, or the Supergirls. If they hadnt wasted two books on Elayne and Andor politics this might have happened. Nyneave barely hads any scenes in this book, she just higged a rock all day.
Am I the only one who has deduced that Matrim can learn to chanell ?
I hoped the “world without Shai’tan” vision was the DO sneaking in a hedge against extinction, but I guess not. The actual fate of Evil, while satisfying, is similar to Thomas Covenant realizing he can’t end the Despiser.
-I know someone else has read those, right?
sps49 @856 – I’m holding on to that first bit, actually. Rand believes that the “world without Shai’tan” is a true vision and therefore he chooses not to destroy the DO… but characters have been wrong before.
Sgt_James @855 – Sorry. Not true, per RJ:
LarryK @853
Good can and does exist independent of Evil. It is the most important truth in the world. Evil is only, always, a perversion or corruption of Good. They are not opposites, and are not the essence of the two sides which motivate each other. Yin and yang are not Good and Evil, they are Female and Male, strength and weakness, humility and honor.
Humans are given conflict, because we cannot see beyond ourselves without it. The tree is pruned to grow more fruitful; the gold is refined to remove the dross; the gem is crystallized under pressure; the work of the Potter is set by firing in the kiln. Some of the trials employed for these purifying purposes might have been established by an evil motive, but that does not diminish the Good of the result. As long as humanity exists in this temporal plane, Free Will permits us to choose badly as easily as to choose well; but very often one solitary person with a pure motive can turn the results of Evil choices to Good.
Rand suffered a great many harrowing difficulties along the way to fully grasping the Dragon Nature. The question is, could he have arrived at that moment on Dragonmount, and succeeded, without them? In his conversation with Perrin, he makes it clear that if he will win his battle, it will be because of the madness of being infested by a past life’s personality and memories, which only came through the taint of pure, concentrated Evil on saidin.
I repeat: Good stands for itself, on its own, and would do so as fully whether Evil existed or not.
sps49@856
Indeed. The Chronicles of Thomas Convenant are, IMO, one of the three most influential fantasy series.
#1 Lord of the Rings – for all practical purposes defined the genre
#2 Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first two trilogies) – more or less resurrected epic fantasy. At the time that Donaldson wrote that stuff, the genre had been left for dead.
(Grudging credit should also be given to Terry Brooks who also started his writing at the same time as Donaldson. His stuff was in no way comparable, but it was popular and definitely helped resurrect the popularity of the genre.)
(Oh yeah – Nobody read Michael Moorcock)
Donaldson introduced moral ambiguity, conflicted characters, uncertainties about reality, and so forth. Some of his characters were amazingly compelling and/or disturbing.
Gosh, we talk about Gawyn Trakand as the “failed prince” archetype, but what about Donaldon’s Elena? We all love the “Entish” Loial – but what about Pitchwife?
#3 – Wheel of Time
Among other things, Jordan showed how “big” you can go. I would think that in this forum I wouldn’t have to argue too hard for praising the importance of WoT.
Really ? I could have SWORN Mat would have been able to channel. After he is healed it distincly states about his skin tingling when Lanfear comes to his room in the Tower. Then when The ‘girls’ come it does it again. Then AGAIN when ‘The Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Val…yada yada yada’ comes to him and askes if he would go into a burning building.
The description of the skin tingling is exactly like that Rand feels when the female half is being used around him.
Sgt_James @860
Lanfear is angry at Mat for not cooperating with her more, and had begun weaving something on him to either punish or convince him to take her more seriously (not Compulsion, she had just shown disgust at others for depending upon that to get their way). When she does, he feels both a tingling of his skin, and a headache returning, both of which vanish when “Selene” realizes that someone else is coming. This shows that both symptoms were a part of what she is using on him.
Next, Siuan asks how he is, and Delves him, which includes some of the sensation of cold that Healing produces, giving him goosebumps. His POV specifically states his question of whether it was a thing of the power, or being touch by an Aes Sedai which “gave him a chill”. (When Rand gets goosebumps by sensing a female channeling, there is never a description of a chill)
And when the girls visit him, Nynaeve also Delves him, and he feels a chill run through him.
Without knowing what Lanfear was beginnung to use on him, there’s no way to claim that the tingling he feels is not an effect of the weave. And for the other two occasions, the descriptions are not in line with the sensations a male channeler feels when saidar is being used nearby, but are consistent with what everyone feels when being Delved. Add to all of that, that there are many more occasions when Mat is in the same space as female channelers, with not another hint that he senses anything, both before and after he gains the medallion.
Oh……..I just thought it would be very interesting if his and Tuon’s children would be full channelers. I wonder how strong Tuon’s commitment would have been in the face of all her kids being chained.
Sgt_James@862
Nice idea.
Of course with Tuon carrying the genes there’s still a chance that Mat and Tuon’s children could be sparkers.
Normally, I’d chuckle at the irony, but if we look at Tuon’s upbringing we realize that her Mother didn’t exactly fawn over her kids. She allowed them to compete and assassinate each other.
You can see Tuon’s emotional detachment in how she refuses to let herself fall in love with Mat. That’s how she was brought up, that’s how she thinks an Empress must be. So, likely she would not shed a tear should a daughter be hauled off to be damane.
If RJ had lived to write the Outrigger novels, he would have a had a great opportunity to have Mat continue to “corrupt” her to his ways. It would be cool for Mat to truly win her heart and have her rethink what it means to be the Empress.
There would even be a little foreshadowing – we can see how Mat influenced Talmanes (from the Prologue) to become a better person – much more concerned with the fate of common men than he had been.
Forkroot@862
We do get some indications how strong the Light is in the Two Rivers. After all Mat’s sister Bode is a sparker. So the gene is recessive at least in him and we know it’s recessive in her. SOOOooooooo , looks like she better get some chains ready for those kids. And sharpen up her training skills. Hmmm I wonder how Mat would take her putting jewelry around the neck of HIS kids……
forkroot@859
What about Amber and it’s nine princes?
What about John Carter?
Yes these were a bit simplistic of what is not the current levels and expectations that we have of SciFi and Fantasy but at the time Zelazny and Burroughs were very ‘cutting edge’. Hmmmm I think mentioning them I just showed my age……{ Break’s out the walker and tries to shuffle away }
I have been waiting to read this from somebody bt how come no one has noticed. When mat meets min they act like they really know each other. Bt if I remember correctly they only saw each other in TEOW in baerlon. And they never even talked. Bt come AMOL and they are suddenly best friends?
hey, anyone thought that Olver is Gaidal Cain?
@867 About a million people. He’s not. Firstly, because Olver was already nine years old when Gaidal Cain was still in TAR. Secondly, because Robert Jordan said Olver is not Gaidal Cain. Q.E.D.
@868 Thank you so much for the explanation. In AMOL Birgitte says that Gaidal will be some years older then her in its next rebirth. This means that he’s somewhere around the world. Wow!
Was I the only one who caught on to the fact that Mellar raped Elayne? I was horrified when I read that, and I never thought that Jordan would go that far. It never outright states it, but when Mellar first gets Elayne it ends off with him saying “now first ” and then she starts screaming no, and when it returns it was stated “Elayne wouldn’t give Mellar the satisfaction of seeing her cry.” The aren’t the exact words but if you read it you’ll know what I mean.
Anyways here my little speel on how I thought the pipe of light was made:
If you’ve ever read The Alchemist by Paulo Coehlo (not that I like the book but I read it because of english class), the main character Santiago through an interesting turn of events is given three days to turn himself into the wind, or else him and the Alchemist will be killed. (This book doesn’t take place in a worl d filled with magic, so I’m sure you’re wondering how he does it.) So after a great deal of thinking on the third day, Santiago comes to the conclusion that because the very hand of God miraculously made him, he too can perform mircales because God is within him.
Now how does this relate to the wheel of time? Well if you remember Rand saw the wheel for what it was and understood it what it was and his purpose in it. Through this knowledge, in knowing his place he was able to master his ta’veren ablities, and perform the greatest miracle he could at time; restoring light to the world. Throughout the whole series Rand, mat and Perrin would cause unnatural events where ever they would go, sometimes miracles, sometimes bad things would happen. In the end though, I think that Rand learned how to control this ability through seeing the wheel (similar to how Santiago turned himself into the wind) and he learned how to make miracles happen. The world was falling apart, covered in darkness, and Rand brought back light to it.
So there’s my theory what do think? I’m sure I’ve made tons of spelling mistakes and such so sorry for that.
I also love the ending Rand’s part in the series, because Rand’s storyline was pretty much Lews Therins revenge on the shadow, and everything the shadow gained against Lews Therin, Rand Al’Thor reclaimed and to top it off, he stole Moridins body (the Nae Blis) which is by far the biggest slap to the face Rand could ever do the shadow.
Would have been nice if, in an epilogue, the Crystal-that-was Egwene still stood some 50 years later and Elayne’s children, now channelers, Mat & Tuon’s (Also Channelers), Aviendha and Rand’s kid(s), Min (kids?), and maybe Perrin’s “pup” visit the site during a pilgrimage or something and see Rand. Something letting the reader know that the world had rebuilt
There just didn’t seem to be a great deal of closure for the characters except, “whew, glad THAT’S over!”
I’ve scoured the internet for someone making a pun when Galaad lost his arm in the fight against Demandred: “Brothers in arms!”.
Quick question here. Did Faile start Channeling in her escape on Bela? Very similar to the escape in The Eye of the World when Rand accidentaly channels Bela’s fatigue away. Anythoughts?
I had actually quit reading somewhere around the middle of the series, but decided to restart after a reviewer suggested to those readers having the same difficulty as I, that we simply skip over the huge swaths of literary debris that Jordon incessantly foisted upon us, and focus solely on the dialogue. I was impressed with the premise of the story and enjoyed the early novels. I really wanted to see how it ended. I felt bad about not completing it, as I rarely leave a story unfinished. The reviewers suggestion allowed me to carry on with the reading, no longer experiencing it as a chore. It also got me to the Sanderson contributions, (and thus the ending), which I thought were very good, considering the enormous task he undertook. (Comment edited by moderator).
I tried reading these books, but they’re just so silly. :(
He ruined the book. Rand garduated to the “true power” couldn’t get the personalities right. Bloody made everyone stupid. Characters were unprepared. Rand, Perrin, mat played second string roles. Turned them back into woolheaded fools. I wish Robert could’ve finished the book..sad