I bear witness of the Wheel of Time Reread, for the Wheel of Time Reread is true!
Today’s entry covers Part 6 of Chapter 37 of A Memory of Light, in which trends are bucked, truth is spoken, and a dear friend is lost.
Previous reread entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general. The index for all things specifically related to the final novel in the series, A Memory of Light, is here.
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This reread post, and all posts henceforth, contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series. If you haven’t read, continue at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Before we begin, a reiteration of my Hopefully Self-Evident Scheduling Note: The Reread will soon be going on hiatus, because holidays. Thus there will be no Reread posts on either December 24th or December 31st. Wassail!
Onward!
Chapter 37: The Last Battle [Part 6]
What Happens
Elayne wonders what the Sharans on the Heights are waiting for while the Trollocs battle Elayne’s forces to ford the river below. Birgitte confesses that all her memories prior to waking up to Elayne and Nynaeve are now gone, to Elayne’s dismay. Birgitte pretends at first that it doesn’t matter that she doesn’t remember Gaidal, but then admits it is “like a hole inside of me.” Elayne feels her pain through the bond.
What would it be like, to lose so much? Birgitte didn’t have a childhood, parents. Her entire life, all she remembered, spanned less than a year.
Galad approaches and makes a remark about Elayne being on the battlefield in her condition; Elayne retorts that if they lose, her children will be either dead or born in captivity to the Dark One, so she thinks it worth the risk. Galad is insultingly dismissive, but then moves on to wondering aloud why Cauthon put him here. Elayne replies that she thinks Mat only acts simple so he can get away with more. Elayne sends crossbowmen to reinforce her right flank, and thinks it is getting bad.
Elayne was suddenly aware. Of the pervasive scent of smoke in the air, the cries of pain from men. Thunder from the sky, trembles in the earth. The cold air resting upon a land that would not grow, the breaking weapons, grinding of pikes against shields. The end. It really had come, and she stood upon its precipice.
A messenger arrives with a message from Mat—to Galad, to Elayne’s annoyance, but she reads it over his shoulder. Mat says in the note, cryptically, that Galad is the only one he trusts with this, since he will always do right no matter what, and tells him to get Elayne to make him a gateway and “do what must be done.” One of the copies of Mat’s medallion is in the envelope. Galad turns the letter over.
p.s. In case you don’t know what “Do what needs to be done” means, it means that I want you to go bloody slaughter as many of those Sharan channelers as you can. I’ll bet you a full Tar Valon mark—it’s only been shaved on the sides a little—that you can’t kill twenty.—MC
Galad wonders if Cauthon has thought through giving immunity to channeling to one of the Children, but says he will do it. Elayne asks if he is willing to kill women, then.
“Perhaps once I would have hesitated,” Galad said, “but that would have been the wrong choice. Women are as fully capable of being evil as men. Why should one hesitate to kill one, but not the other? The Light does not judge one based on gender, but on the merit of the heart.”
“Interesting.”
“What is interesting?” Galad asked.
“You actually said something that doesn’t make me want to strangle you. Perhaps there is hope for you someday, Galad Damodred.”
To her surprise, then, Bryne appears, looking for Gawyn, who he says Egwene thought might have come this way to fight on the front lines, perhaps in disguise. Elayne thinks that going in disguise seems unlike Gawyn, but promises to spread the word to keep an eye out for him.
Observing via gateway, Mat sees that Elayne’s lines are being forced back, triggering memories of ancient battles, but he thinks he has never been this engaged by a conflict before. He knows Demandred knows how to gamble by observing how he moves his troops.
Mat was playing against one of the best who had ever lived, and the stake this time was not wealth. They diced for the lives of men, and the final prize was the world itself. Blood and bloody ashes, but that excited him. He did feel guilty about that, but it was exciting.
He gives orders for Lan to strike, and hopes Tam’s forces can hold long enough for Lan’s troops to come around and strike from behind. Logain enters, to Min’s chagrin and Tuon’s deep suspicion. Mat tells him he wants Logain to help the White Tower. Logain replies it is not his war, and Mat retorts that it is everyone’s war. Logain says that he stood forth to fight and got the Red Ajah in answer, because he was “just a little too soon.” Mat asks if he’s really refusing to fight because he didn’t get to be the Dragon, but Logain says Rand is welcome to that task. Mat quickly intuits that what Logain really wants, though, is to be sent against Demandred. He thinks Logain is crazy, but knows that he has to do something about the Forsaken in any case.
Logain didn’t have much of a shot against Demandred, in Mat’s estimation. But he’d have to deal with the man somehow. If Logain wanted to try, then so be it.
“You may fight him,” Mat said. “Do it now, or wait until he is weakened a little. Light, I hope we can weaken him. Anyway, I leave it to you. Pick your time and attack.”
[Logain smiles and leaves via gateway.] “Glory of men…” Min whispered. “It’s still to come.”
Mat is about to start a pre-arranged fight with Tuon (pulling the same ruse Rand had with Perrin in Cairhien) when he realizes one of the guards who has entered the tent is a Gray Man, and pulling a knife. He yells and falls back, reaching for his own knives, and Mika screams that there is channeling nearby.
The tent bursts into flame and Sharans come barreling through, and Min lunges at Fortuona’s throne, tipping it over. To her surprise, Fortuona’s elaborate costume breaks away easily, leaving her in black clothes she can move easily in. Min sees Mat go down with a knife-wielding man on top of him, and Tuon produces her own knife and lunges for Mat’s attacker. Hampered by her own robes, Min flounders through the back wall of the tent and encounters a Sharan channeler. She flings a knife at him, but he catches it in midair. He smiles, but then falls over dead. Siuan appears and remarks she is not supposed to know how to do that. Min hisses that Siuan isn’t supposed to be there, and Siuan replies it was lucky for Min she was.
“I told you. Stay near Gareth Bryne!”
“I did stay near him, almost near as his own smallclothes, I’ll have you know. We saved one another’s lives because of it, so I guess the viewing was right. Are they ever wrong?”
“No, I’ve told you that,” Min whispered. “Never. Siuan… I saw an aura around Bryne that meant you had to stay together, or the two of you would die. It hangs above you, right now. What ever you think you did, the viewing has not been accomplished yet. It’s still there.”
Siuan freezes a moment, but then says they have to save Cauthon or everything is lost. They go around the tent to where the Deathwatch Guard is fighting the Sharans furiously, keeping the channelers occupied. Siuan uses water to dampen them against the flames, and they dash back inside the burning tent. Mat is fighting three Gray Men at once, and Tuon is down. Siuan hauls one of them off Mat. The sul’dam is dead, and her damane useless as a result. The Gray Men are hard to see, but Min finally realizes one of them is about to kill Tuon. She flings a knife and kills him. Mat kills the last assassin.
Min met him. “Siuan is here, too. She—”
Mat pointed. Siuan lay on the floor of the building. Her eyes stared sightlessly, and all the images were gone from above her.
Dead. Min froze, heart wrenching. Siuan!
Mat forces her to leave Siuan’s corpse, and they escape just before the tent collapses. Min wishes Siuan farewell as they are ushered away; she will send word about Bryne, but knows it will be useless, and hates that her viewings are never wrong.
Egwene strikes at the Sharans, wielding as much Power as she can through her sa’angreal. She feels Gawyn somewhere above her on the Heights, but only faintly; she thinks he is unconscious, and her only hope is to reach him in time.
She stepped forward. One step after another.
I’m coming, Gawyn, she thought, growing frantic. I’m coming.
Commentary
Well. That little snippet of Egwene POV was much nicer to read when I thought she’d actually reach him in time. Now? Not so much.
Grump.
And then there’s Siuan, which, okay, wow.
Rhuarc’s fate in the last post was deeply upsetting, but this is (I think) the first death in AMOL that truly just slapped me in the face. Probably at least partially because of how sudden and strangely off-screen it was (seriously, I don’t think we even know for sure how she died!), but more so because this is (again, I think) the first death of what I would consider a major Lightside character in, well, the entire series so far.
That’s kind of crazy when you think about it. And in fact that has been a common criticism leveled against WOT in general, that so few (or, really, none) of the truly significant Good Guys in the story have died, despite being embroiled in an epic apocalyptic battle for the fate of the world (or at least the lead-up to it) since Day One. And that is not an invalid criticism, one must admit; it’s just harder to see, since the unkillability of Our Heroes is more or less standard operating procedure with 95% of modern Western stories told today, and has come to be the way we just expect these things to go, to some extent. For franchise marketing reasons, if no others. Can’t very well churn out more stories about a thing if you kill off all its protagonists, now can you?
Thus the Bad Guys die, and the Good Guys don’t (or, the Bad Guys get vanquished but keep coming back, whatever). It is the Way of Things, as we have been trained to accept. Which makes it all the more startling when a story refuses to conform to that stereotype. WOT was a bit late to the table on bucking that trend (unlike some series I could mention), but in certain ways that makes the deaths in AMOL even more shocking, and upsetting, by contrast. Perhaps. Or you could consider it gratuitous back-loading. I guess in the end it really depends on your point of view.
Whatever the case for other readers, for me Siuan’s death was a distinct shock. I’m pretty sure I had to go back and reread that couple of paragraphs just to make sure it had really happened. I kind of waver between being indignant that she didn’t get more of a death scene, and being appreciative that death in battle really can be that sudden and stupid and wait, what the fuck just happened?
I do regret that Siuan never really seemed to get the closure as a character I felt she deserved, though. It’s almost odd that I feel that way, since right now I can’t even say what that closure should be, but I feel certain that there is one, and I’m just forgetting it…
Oh wait, that’s what it was: Moiraine.
Siuan should really, really have met up with Moiraine before everything went down, y’all, and it’s kind of awful that she didn’t. I mean, not only were she and Moiraine the long-term conspirators and architects of most of our main heroes’ and heroines’ entire journeys, especially in the early books, but New Spring establishes that they were not just best friends, but erstwhile lovers before they went off on their separate-but-linked quests toward that end. It’s sort of terrible, therefore, that they apparently didn’t even get to have a passing conversation between Moiraine’s “resurrection” and Siuan’s death here.
One can believe, of course, that this conversation happened off-screen and we just didn’t get to be privy to it, but that may be being overly generous. In any case, I do think it was a failure on the narrative’s part not to even hint that such a thing happened even if it refused to devote the screentime, so to speak, to show it to us directly. There’s even more I could say about the negation and marginalization of an clearly deep female-to-female relationship (sexual or otherwise) in favor of the heteronormative relationships for both Siuan and Moiraine that were apparently more important while ironically being not nearly as well-developed (at least on Moiraine and Thom’s part), but okay, sure.
In any case, props must be given to Siuan for deciding that her own safety was less important than assuring the success of Team Light, and even more for her recognition that that success hinged on Mat’s survival far more than her own. She died suddenly and tragically, but she did not die in vain, and that’s more than most people get, I suppose.
Sigh.
Also, to Logain: stop being a dick, The End. Thank you. (Though I was intrigued, initially, that he still had “glory to come” according to Min, at this point I think I was fairly sure that he didn’t deserve to earn it. But more on that at the proper time.)
In other news, I was very sad to learn here that Birgitte’s memories have finally totally disappeared. Which also (perhaps ironically) was what made me sure that she was going to die Real Soon Now. It’s maybe interesting that I never thought that her demise and subsequent re-Hero-of-the-Horning would happen at all like it did, but that’s a discussion for later on.
In other other news, I hearted Elayne all across the land in this section, because she totally spoke for me in her conversation with Galad. In fairness, I also have to give props to Galad himself, for acknowledging (and articulating) re: women combatants what I have only been yelling since Day One, but Elayne’s acid commentary on his late realization made me grin, because exactly. Her point re: the stupidity of objecting to her being pregnant on the battlefield was also delightfully cogent, and basically she wins all the things at the moment.
I did kind of love, though, that Galad himself pointed out the possible stupidity of giving a Whitecloak immunity to channeling. Though I have to point out that all things being equal, Mat and Elayne between them would really not have had all that much trouble in getting the medallion back afterwards, if things had fallen out that way. That whole thing where the medallion doesn’t protect against indirect effects of the One Power is really pretty significant, after all.
I made a point of marking out Elayne’s thought to herself about suddenly really realizing she is in the midst of the Last Battle, because it was something I had been thinking too, especially on my first reading of AMOL. I was thinking about it in terms of how I would be thinking if I was actually a character in this story, naturally, but I was thinking it even more in a meta sense, as a reader.
In a weird way, the journey toward Tarmon Gai’don has been even longer (and, in certain ways, even more fraught) for the fans of WOT than it has been for the characters. The characters, after all, only had to get through a little over two years to get to the main event, while the readers have been waiting for over two decades for it. Plus (and I can’t tell if this is crass, I hope it’s not), unlike the readers, the characters haven’t had to suffer through the demise of their own story’s creator, and the knowledge that maybe their story wouldn’t get finished at all.
Of course, the characters have had to deal with a lot more, you know, torture and hardships and angst and dying than (hopefully) any of the readers have, so there’s that. The comparison is sort of ridiculous when looked at that way, actually, but whatever. Evidence occasionally to the contrary, we fans can make the differentiation between fiction and reality, so in that sense I don’t think it is completely outré to compare our travails to that of the fictional characters we have waited so long to know the fate of. I hope.
Whatever, my point is that like Elayne, I totally had, more than once, that sense of “holy crap, we are actually here, at the endgame” while reading AMOL, and I bet I’m not the only one, ergo I mention it. So There.
And that’s it for now, me hearties! Have a week, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
Siuan Sanche chose her own “interpertation” of Min’s viewings and was deposed as Amyrlin Seat, then she does it again and gets killed.
Moral of the story? Listen to Cassandra/Min?
Great re-read, as always. Your last comment reminded me of a fan who commented on one of the blogs as we all awaited the release of A Memory of Light that he was terminally ill and wondered if there was any way to get a pre-release copy so he could die fulfilled. Anyone know if he either got one or survived his illness past the release date?
This is probably the best thread to mention the complete and utter absurdity of Elayne being on the battlefield in the third trimester of a twin pregnancy. Speaking as someone who has experienced such a thing, I call no way to her riding a horse, running about, and just generally doing all the active stuff she is doing. Yes, she might have a right to be there, but it is not physically possible to be carrying out those activities. By the start of your sixth month, you are measuring full-term. You can’t climb stairs easily, and you can’t breathe well because the twin fetuses are compressing your diaphragm. There is no WAY you are climbing on a horse. Even for a young, fit woman this is true. This knocked me out of the story completely when I read it. Really, Brandon?
Cassandra
Gah, yes, thank you for being annoyed at Siuan and Moiraine’s relationship not getting closure. It is probably the sourest note in this book for me.
Thanks Leigh…you hit most of my feelings about this chapter squarely on the head. I also like that Elayne understands Mat to a T….only acting simple so he can get away with more.
Poor Birgitte. I don’t think I twigged to the fact that her memory loss might be a hint of her dimise, but I am glad she was “re-Hero-of-the-Horned”. LOL. That was way cool.
Bye Siuan. Sad to see you go. I liked the whole Siuan/Byrne storyline, and was saddened at their deaths. I kind of liked how it was told, however, with Min’s warning followed immediately by Siuan’s death. It was nice, as a reader, to have that forewarning. I like the battle description. Brandon’s pretty good at that!
About that battle….I also like Tuon and Mat helping each other….He protecting her, and she going to battle for him. Is it love? Or is it knowing where your bread is buttered? I still don’t know, but I liked it.
I kind of surmised that Siuan and Moraine must have spoken at the Merrilor pre-war confab, but it would’ve been nice to have been privy to that conversation, or at least have had mention of it by one of them. It would’ve completed a nice circle.
Cass@@@@@ 3: You are right, of course….she must have been big as a house. But this is fiction, and we would’ve all been pissed without Elayne being part of the last battle, wouldn’t we? Well, maybe not the Elayne haters, but I would’ve missed her.
The conversation between Elayne and Galad about gender equality is quite ironic given that the only reason she’s the ruling monarch of Andor and not Galad is because of the gender biased inheritance system for the Lion Throne. It would’ve been funny if Galad had pointed that out.
But wasn’t the whole “Can’t ever kill a woman” only a custom in Two Rivers and the Borderlands? Galad IIRC never seemed to have such a problem at all, he treats everyone the same.
I hadn’t thought about it that Suian was the first major character to die, and for me her death did come as a surprise, but not shock, probably because it did happen off-screen. I did have to re-read it a couple of times because of the abruptness of the scene.
It was way more shocking in the way that Brigette died, I was really tweaked by that one, but more on that later…
@1 Well you can’t blame her for thinking the viewing was over. How many if any of Min’s viewings were open ended, and was Suian aware of the possibility? I’d have made the same presumtion as her that saving Gareth from poisoning/Gareth saving her from the Blood Knives was a fullfilling of that viewing.
As for how she died, well her last act was pulling a Grey Man off Matt, so I would assume that he somehow got to her and stabbed her.
Noooooooo, Siuan! My heart is broken for her and Gareth. I loved her as Amyrlin but I loved her even more as the young-looking, smart-assed, weak-in-the-power, totally-in-love-with-Gareth version of Siuan! I never realized she had a love affair with Moraine in New Spring … guess I’m just dense?
Galad = Finally human!
Elayne = Totally on board with Leighs’ interpretation, she is kicking butt! But agree with #3, be careful with them babies!
Gawyn! Egwene! = So many feels. Even though I know what’s coming … I still dread what’s coming!
It’s been so long since I read this but thanks to the rereads it is all coming back to me now. I seriously binged and read all 41 entries in about the last week. Thanks, Leigh!!!
Tek @5. I agree about the Mat-Tuon relation: I like it, though I believe (since about KoD) Tuon is much more enamoured than she admits to herself.
And re @6, I too can’t remeber, that the killing of women was such a huge theme for Galad. He did what he thought the right thing, not considering gender, and since he joined the Whitecloaks, one must assume that he would not have had a problem, to go against female channelers (if they do wrong).
I got to thinking about these if/then viewings Min has had. Yeah, Gareth and Suian have to be together or they both die (at least twice). But who is to say that that is the most desired outcome?
What if, sure Suian and Gareth live a while because they are together, but as a result Min dies, or something else horrible happens.
Just thinking “aloud”
Great post again Leigh. Thank you, thank you, from here to Tarmon G… oh.
I am with insomnia333 @8. I did not remember (in any of my re-reads) of the explanation of her viewing of Min and Bryne that it was an on-going viewing. I had thought that once they saved each other, the viewing was fulfilled. I was shocked when Min told Suian that the viewing was still in effect. Before AMoL, I had thought it possible that Suian would die during AMoL. But I did not exepct her death to be tied to the viewing Min first saw in LoC.
Cass @3. I have not had twins nor have I been around a woman who was carrying twins. So I cannot comment as to when a woman would start showing with twins and/or how big she would get. However, I did not think that Elayne was in her third trimester. I know she was showing, but I did not think she was that far along. Melaine, on the other hand, was in her 3rd trimester. In fact, she was near term. That was one of the reasons she went to Mayne.
Speaking of Melaine, I wonder if Bael survived. I got the impression that by the time Perrin was fighting the Darkhounds at Shayol Ghul, one of the Aiel Perrin encountered implied that there was really nobody in charge. Rodel had been exposed as Compulsed; Dalin had been assumed dead. I read that those Aiel implied that all remaining Aiel clan chiefs were unaccounted for. This would have included Bael. Hopefully, the encyclopedia will provide some clarity. I would be surprised if of all the clan chiefs, only Rhuric died.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
I think this might be the first time or nearly that I agree with everything Liegh commented about! I especially felt that the authors could have spent a couple of sentences and had Moraine excuse herself so she could speak with Siuan just for the record.
Elayne prego with twins running around on a horse, well it’s a great story anyway. Galad, now actually acting like a human being not a righteous demigod, that was pleasant.
I think at this point with the last battle surrounding them, some of our heroes are finally coming of age and are realizing things they were too blind to see before. Better late than never, I think it is your impending mortality that brings it out in you.
Rhuarc, I loved this guy, he was the wise one and I hated him to end up like that, I wished he had been hit by lightening instead, that said, it seems more realistic that not everyone goes out in a blaze of glory.
Ditto for Siuan, I’m glad it wasn’t a drawn out death but I felt bad because she was just getting tolerable and I was looking for her to settle down with Bryne. Then again, we could get into another discussion about fate, can you really avoid your own?
Birgitte, yes I failed to connect her loss of memories with her impending demise, but I did know that she had died many times before, I didn’t expect her to go out right when she did (pretty grizzly) and then show up already, that was pretty cool.
I have said all along that Tuon was in love with Matt, she was just inexperienced with relationships and had a lot of learning to do, and with her, it was observing from a distance and talking with her confidant, I can’t recall her name of course. So when she was defending Matt (not the first time), it was out of love, and instinct.
Egwene is now in the danger zone and her right hand knows it and does her best to advise, but that’s life in the fast lane. Gawyn (poor sap) not feeling real good about now, I wonder if he is understanding what he is putting her through? Probably not, that was his on going problem.
I dont think Suian is the first major charcter to die… what about Verin… and Moraine did die for a few books (10 yrs ago I was sure she was dead)
FWIW, Elayne is just about 6 months along. While I wouldn’t normally recommend riding at that stage, and especially with twins, we also should keep in mind that in past times, women were known to ride right up until delivery. Not saying it was comfortable, or easy, or even wise – but when the options are limited, sometimes riding is still the best thing you can do.
At first I was disappointed at the lack of a Morrain-Suian meeting, but there is so much to fit into the story, I can forgive the omission. The reality is than Suian and Morraine have both changed significantly since their time as novices/accepted in the tower, and both have found new loves recently. If they did meet offscreen, it may not have been as powerful as we might imagine.
Poor Galad. Elayne will never appreciate you. His comment about the sword is kind of funny considering Birgittes reaction to Elayne trying to use one later on.
Oh Siuan. Her death totally blind sided me even with the comment from Min about her veiwing just before. At that point I was reading the book so fast that I thought I’d skipped something when it happened. I had to read it several times to process it.
Logain is still a bad ass. His little stare down with Tuon was fun.
@3 Cass — I was about to say that Elayne wasn’t actually that pregnant, but going back and redoing the timeline, it seems like she would have been 5 1/2 to 6 months pregnant at this point (she got pregnant on the equivalent of February 17; the initial meeting with Rand and everybody at the field of Merillor happened on the equivalent of July 2, so assuming that a month passes between that initial meeting and the actual last battle, while all the other smaller battles were playing out, I guess 5 1/2 months is pretty close. Interesting point. I don’t know much about twins, and I’ve never been pregnant myself, but I know enough women who’ve continued to work at physical jobs up through 8 months or so that it didn’t strike me at all as unrealistic.
Siuan’s death wasn’t the one that struck me the most on first reading this book. That, actually, was Romanda. Romanda, who’d been — while not a major character — certainly at least a driving force behind the whole Salidar subplot, was killed off in less than a single line. I had to go back and read it twice to make sure it happened. That was when I knew that we were really in for a serious train ride.
As far as Siuan being the first major lightside character to die… well, it depends on how you define “major.” And, I suppose, “lightside.” You had Verin, Ingtar, Pedron Niall, Aram, Valda, Bukama. Siuan got more ink than Verin, but I’d argue that Verin was every bit as important to storyline. At the point he died, Ingtar was far more important to the story than Siuan was at the point she died. The idea about main characters not dying by and large is a perfectly valid one, but there were deaths that were pretty impactful before this one.
Here’s the entire list of character who had at least 5 POV scenes who died before A Memory of Light: Verin, Geofram Bornhald, Pedron Niall… and that’s it. In A Memory of Light we add Siuan, Gawyn, Egwene, Demandred, Bryne, and Fain. Strange to note that all of the other characters who got that many POV’s survived (there were 26 who survived, including the only two other Foresaken who got that many POV’s — Moghedien and Graendal — along with the only Black Ajah who got that many POV’s, Alivarin and Galina).
Oh, and on the issue of Siuan and Moiraine: Remember Moiraine’s reaction when she heard Siuan was dead? That is, that she had no reaction at all, and Egwene called her on it, and Moiraine didn’t care?
I kind of think both of them have moved on from where they used to be.
mikeinphoenix @2
I remember reading that also. I always hoped someone up the food chain took note, vetted the request and hooked that person up with something if it was a legitimate request.
Silence @19 – “I kind of think both of them have moved on from where they used to be.” That was my thought, too. The events of New Spring are more than half a lifetime away, literally, and the last few years have been several lifetimes worth, figuratively. So I’m pretty okay with it.
Im with Evermore@17 in that i was reading so fast i thought i had missed something with Suian’s death. I imagine she was killed by a male Sharan channeler.
I never noticed Galad’s “death equality” speech as being out of character but i never paid him much attention anyway. for some reason in this particular reread i my mind keeps seeing Galahad instead of Galad lol.
i wouldnt say that Moiraine didnt care that Suian died. i would say she didnt show emotion to Egwene.
Re the twin thing: I read Elayne at about 6 months which is the start of the third trimester. If this was a singleton pregnancy, sure no problem, with doing all the stuff she’s doing. Twin pregnancy is a whole different ballgame. It’s not just about getting fatter :-)
I know it’s a fantasy, but let’s just say it made me really aware it was a fantasy. BTW, RJ did a very accurate scene with the midwife who ends up attending Elayne. Perhaps that’s why this jumped out at me.
Yeah, the most obvious and in-character explanation to Moiraine’s reaction, or lack off, to Siuan’s “death” is that she didn’t show her emotion to Egwene.
IIRC, when Siuan and Moiraine met in Fal Dara when finally left alone they were warm and clearly happy to see each other.
Just a couple of lines to indicate a meeting would’ve been fine and made sense. They were sisters in arms and friends for
three decadesmore than 25 years and until the end, even if usually far away from each other.About Good Guys not dying too soon: it seems to me that RJ pretty much addressed that issue directly with the concept of “ta’veren” and, in addition, I have gotten the impression that the Pattern takes care (in an very roundabout way) of making sure those necessary to achieve the Creator’s purpose are around as long as they’re needed.
Now, clearly, an author can take this to an extreme, and it then becomes obvious and artificial. I think RJ played the margins very well on this. Mat’s “luck” was, for example, an explanation for various unlikely survivals, yet left him subject to frustrations and pain. Early on, Rand was winning swordfights against much better trained opponents due to “fortunate” occurrances. Yet he met enough failure that it was clear that victory was not simply a foregone conclusion.
Now, as we near the end, with the LB soon over, the Pattern is perhaps withdrawing protection. I know there has been discussion of whether our three male leads are still ta’veren or not.
And I realize that various AS and authoritative spokespersons have declared that the Patter “does not care.” But I’m not convinced. It had to be the Pattern that caused three ta’veren to be born simultaneously in the same village, and to cause a return of “strong” AS just in time for the LB, as the Forsaken were freed. And so on.
I’m just a little reminded of Asimov’s FOUNDATION trilogy, where individual characters struggled heroically, only to realize afterward that the outcome had, in the very long run, been inevitablely determined by the laws of psychohistory. The path might be up for grabs but the end result is fated as the “laws” bring about events that shape the flow of history.
Comment
Thanks Leigh, on the nail as usual!
I have a lot of grumbles about this bit of the book, as it includes what I think are some of its main flaws.
Firstly, Mat’s letter to Galad. I know the Sanderson writing of Mat drum has been beaten a lot, but man, do I hate Mat’s ‘funny’ letters in these last few books. They’re inane, out of character and in this case, wildly inappropriate given the tragedy unfolding all around.
Secondly, Elayne’s conversation with Galad. I can’t remember if Galad actually had the protective/chauvinistic attitude to women that’s found in the Two Rivers (maybe seen in The Fires of Heaven?), but even if he did, this is a rather clumsy commentary on gender relations that breaks the fourth wall for me, much as the introduction of the token gay man earlier did.
Thirdly and most importantly, Siuan’s death. Yep, totally right Leigh, the lack of any interaction between Moiraine and Siuan is a major failing of the book. Regardless of whether they were lovers (from memory New Spring is pretty coy on this) or just very good friends, their relationship deserved some kind of attention. Siuan’s is one the first of many deaths that lack an appropriate reaction. We don’t see Amys grieving for Rhuarc, Faile for her parents, Egwene’s parents and friends for her. From memory poor Gareth Bryne, a pretty significant character, doesn’t even get a death scene. I know the book was long, but surely a few pages more wouldn’t have broken the bindings. Or I would happily have traded some of the zillion scenes of Trollocs getting slaughtered for something that would have moved me.
On the upside, I do like the portrayal of Logain. You just don’t know what he’s going to do, for good or ill. Most of WoT’s heroes and villains are pretty black and white (Pedron Niall comes to mind as someone who was more shaded) so it’s nice to have that kind of ‘shadowed’ hero in the book, just like when Rand was going megalomaniacal. Adds some suspense.
For me the concept of “The Last Battle” would have felt more real if most of the major characters would have died, with only a few scattered survivors to rebuild after the hard won victory. As it is, the death toll among the common soldiers / non-named characters was by orders of magnitude higher than among the named characers and to me that feels superficial. Espeacially I dont like it that characters died neatly in pairs. Noone left to mourn the love their lives but all relationsships kept intact in spite of the apocalypse… not believable for me.
On thing that struck me as poignant about Siuan’s death is that very early on in the story, Siuan tells Matt that he reminds her of her uncle: a gambler who died trying to pull children out of a burning building.
I always thought it was a spot on description of Matt’s character, but didn’t anticipate that 10 or so books later, Siuan would be the one to die, while trying to pull Matt out of a burning building.
I didn’t get a chance to comment on last week’s post (even though it was my birthday!), which…Rhuarc. Ugh.
Actually, by looking back at my notes (actually, just my stream-of-consciousness non-spoiler reactions posted to the Facebook group in the midst of my read), I can tell that I read these two sections (the fall of Rhuarc and Siuan) at the same time, late at night. Here’s what I wrote, for what it’s worth (the bold print being my reactions, with their date and time; the non-bold print being my after-the-fact explanation of what I was reacting too):
January 10
12:05 a.m. “Yeah, it…gets worse”
At 11:57 p.m. Jan 9 I’d posted about something that amused me, but also commented that “in general, everything is so tense and dire I can hardly stand it.” I’m not sure what prompted either of those comments, other than “AHHH LAST BATTLE ZOMG!” I do know that by this point I was convinced that Logain was completely, totally insane, whatever Min’s viewing meant, and that this was a Very Bad Thing.
12:38 a.m. “Oh. Oh, god, no.”
My reaction to Rhuarc. What happened to him truly, truly sucked. I don’t mean in terms of plot – it’s realistic and logical. And also realistically horrible. With the revelation that Compulsion is in some sense permanent – and that full-on, heavy compulsion like Graendal used on Rhuarc can’t be Healed in any meaningful way that doesn’t kill the subject or turn him/her into a vegetable – well, this was heartbreaking. All of the Aiel have such pride and strength, and Rhuarc had that in full measure, plus wisdom, restraint, even kindness. To be mindraped into a tool of Graendal was *horrible*. I had much the same reaction to the revelation of Compulsion being used on the Great Captains. Men with the integrity and competence and all-around goodness like Gareth Bryne, Davram Bashere, Ituralde, or Agelmar…Graendal did something that permanently harmed them. It’s horrific. But I think we spent more time with Rhuarc than any of the others.
12:54 a.m. “Aw, man, that SUCKS. Makes sense, though.”
This was my reaction to Min telling Siuan that she was still in danger and the viewing was unfulfilled. The part about it making sense…well, I was one of many who felt that the *apparent* fulfillment of that viewing had been – a little lackluster. It was fine, but it was just a random encounter and didn’t have lots of impact. (Kind of like the viewing of Sheriam’s fate, if to a much lesser degree, b/c what a red herring THAT was.) Anyway, the Siuan/Gareth viewing had seemed to be fulfilled during the encounter with the bloodknife, and I had no suspicions otherwise, none at all. But it hadn’t been completely satisfying, and so I could accept Min’s statement here that there was more to it. I actually thought it was clever…for a page or so.
12:56 a.m. “Oh…tears now.”
And here was where I turned a page or so and realized that Siuan *really was* in danger…i.e. was already dead.
I have to say, I think it was effectively done. The “wait, what? She’s dead, just like that?” bit seems very much like what sometimes happens when people are fighting for their lives. And Siuan *did* get to save the world here by helping save Mat. I can’t remember if I already have here on my mental list of characters who saved the world, but if not, she definitely makes it here.
I also have to say, the scene between her and Gareth Bryne in TGS where she reveals her real motives to Bryne – that she ran out on her promise to him because NOTHING was more important than helping the world through the Last Battle, and that her life was dedicated to that – and their decision not to marry until after the Battle was won – that was a powerful scene and one that filled me with foreboding. I thought at the time that it might be too much to hope for…that Siuan for the first time in 2o years beginning to envision a future for herself beyond the Last Battle might be too good to be true.
And so it was. Rest in the Light, Siuan. And you too, Gareth Bryne. I hate what this war did to you. You lost everything before the end.
1:13 a.m. “No. No, i think I’m going to give…what happened…the weight it deserves. I will rest here. See you all in the morning.”
I tried to keep reading for awhile and just couldn’t. Too many feels. So this was the point where I left the Last Battle to sleep for a few hours.
Thanks for another good recap, Leigh!
Re: Siuan and Moiraine – the lack of a scene between the two of them was definitely keenly felt. I don’t think it bothered me as much as it does Leigh or some others – possibly because even in New Spring they never read as *anything* like lovers to me. I know what RJ said in interviews about the term pillow friends, but he didn’t show it on the page between these two. There were times, with other characters, when pillow friends did seem to have a sexual component to it, but I didn’t read anything like that between Siuan and Moiraine. (For one thing, they’re dreaming to each other about marrying their Warders when they become Aes Sedai.)
Maybe it’s just that romance wasn’t RJ’s strong suit. Many of the relationships, perhaps most of them, never seemed all that believable. Rand and his trio fell in love just because – Rand and Min was the only pairing that made a lot of sense to me, with Rand and Avi a distant second. (Oddly, Rand and Egwene, in the first two books, DID ring true to me.) Lan and Nynaeve made some sense. I guess Perrin and Faile felt like a genuine, if annoying, romance, and I kind of bought Mat and Tuon’s courtship…kind of.
But Gawyn and Egwene? Thom and Moiraine? These were all told, not shown, imo.
Re: Moiraine not showing Egwene a reaction to Siuan’s death…um. What? That’s clearly not possible in AMOL, since Egwene dies before seeing Moiraine again. Or are we talking about Moiraine not reacting to *reports* of Siuan’s death after she was deposed by Elaida? Because at that point, Moiraine was the Queen of Control. Whatever her feelings, she wouldn’t have been likely to show them to anyone, even Egwene…who after all was still Accepted.
This will sound a little harsh but for me Siuan Sanche died when she was gentiled and lost her power. She was never the same woman even though she became healed and received a percentage back. I will always remember Siuan as the Amyrlin, on the throne looking at Rand. As a little boy reading that book when I first did, Morraine and Siuan were my first introduction to fictional “kickass” women who didn’t wear a leotard.
I was shocked that Siuan was killed off in that way, but I knew that the final battle wasn’t going to end without at least one of the main two rivers crew dying, so I was dreadfully awaiting that. I didn’t know who it would be and every option to who, was very sickening. I will say that by the scene you described at the end with Egwene, I started to feel sick because all signs were pointing to Egwene or Elayne or both, or should I say all four.
Was that intentional? In any case, well played!
As for Moraine and Siuan, I thought they were less lovers and more good friends. As for the “pillowfriends”, my interpretation of that was (I am sorry to use these words) more of a phase than long lasting relationship, as can be seen by Elaida’s relationship with her ex-pillowfriend. Then again, she is Elaida, so…
And when Moraine meets Siuan after Siuan is the Amyrlin, their interactions are much more formal, just tempered by the fact that they are sharing a huge secret. So, they seem more like good friends, who because of the choices they made and their roles in the Tower drift slightly apart. I imagine any off-scene meeting they had after Moraine returns will be heartfelt, but nothing we need to see or hear.
As for the pairs, as long as the crazy kids Lan and Nynaeve, and Mat and Tuon get to live happily ever after, I can live with the rest. Anything happens to either of those, and I am coming for you, Team Jordan.
Also, Logain completely deserves adoration/glory of his men. If logain had been turned, I dare say that the dark one would have won. Imagine the entire black tower on the side of the dark one.
Also Also, @29 Excellent point!
Can’t very well churn out more stories about a thing if you kill off all its protagonists, now can you?
I guess that’s why ASoIaF has come to a grinding almost halt…
Siuan’s death hit me the hardest. I can’t say I was really surprised by it per se, but she was definitely one of my favorite characters if for no better reason than she went through more crap than just about anyone with just about the least amount of complaining.
Was every choice she made right? Hell no–the stupid plans she and Moraine had to “guide” Rand were nearly disasterous even if their motivation was in the right place (though I actually blame most of the faults in execution on Moraine rather than Siuan) in any case, she definitely did the best she could with what she had.
RE: Pillowfriends. Jordan made it plain more than once that this term meant exactly what it seems to mean. Moiraine and Siuan were physically intimate during their time as Novices/Accepted. But he also specified that very often, this behavior was a phase, a not-uncommon result of being regimented into a hard life of intense training in a one-gender realm, the White Tower. And, in story, it is crystal clear that while they have genuine affection for one another which is well beyond simple lust, neither is a lesbian, for they both hold expectations of marrying men, and both fall in love with men.
With all of the complaints about Brandon’s handling of various nuances of the story, the vast majority of which I find unfounded and spurious, when not simply being done as an attempt to show a supposed knowledge of writing, the following passage is one that stuck out to me (not for critical reasons, but authorship):
And I admit the possibility that I could be wrong, but I can’t imagine this statement being written by Robert Jordan. The sentiment and concept are absolutely in line with the resolution of biases which formed a significant sub-theme of the entire work, but the specific verbage here just seemed to have a neon sign on it saying, “Brandon settles some readers’ rage over classic chivalry”. Yeah, I’m looking at you…
Neuralnet @14 already said it, but until Towers of Midnight, there seemed to be another major character who had died prior to Suian. Of course, pretty much everybody expected Moiraine to return, but still. And Verin, but given her situation she pretty much had to drink the iocaine, or else end up fighting on the wrong side.
nsawa @18
Nice roundup of departed characters with significant POV time. Something I’ve mentioned before, you can reverse the perspective on a story such as this, and consider that those characters who get the largest portion of the story focused on them, are those who survived to contribute to the telling. I don’t have the same presumptive expectation that, if a certain portion of main characters don’t die, the story is less believable.
MikeyRocks @31
That’s odd, I never knew that Siuan started out kosher…
@34 Oh, I don’t think a lack of protagonists is ASoIAF’s problem. Actually, I don’t think the awesomeness that is that series has a major problem. I for one am happy to wait for books that good, rather than get something half-baked earlier.
Grayshade@27: I agree with your analysis vis a vis Siuan’s death and the lack of grief shown by others in the book. I know they’re in the midst of a battle, and fighting for their very survival, but a sentence by a character here and there would’ve been nice character enhancement…..and I too, would trade a few trolloc battles for that.
ChaplainChris@30: I mostly agree with your assessment of Siuan and Moraines relationship. They were Best Friends, for the long haul, dedicated to finding the Dragon, and bringing him to the LB…..Dedicated Comrades in Arms, so to speak. Whether they were lovers is irrelevent. I would’ve loved even a brief glimpse of their reunion before the actual Last Battle…..sharing the ultimate fulfillment of their purpose.
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Tek @@@@@ 38 & ChaplainChris @@@@@ 30
Absolutely agree on Moiraine and Siuan’s relationship, with underlining that whether they were lovers is irrelevant.
“I would’ve loved even a brief glimpse of their reunion before the actual Last Battle…..sharing the ultimate fulfillment of their purpose.”
That’s what’s it about- thanks for putting it in words for me! Going a few years now, back when re-reading NS and the main series with the last three books in the horizon, whilst reading Siuan’s and Mo’s passages I was thinking of AMOLx3 and looking forward to sharing with them the end of what I was reading the start of in NS or the maturation in books 1-6.
This is but one example among some other such moments. Some were inevitable to be unfullfilled. This is not one of them. At least a token sentence indicating a meeting has taken place could’ve done.
It’s not a huge thing. Just a case of how inexplicable it’s ommision is and also of a hole in the cheese when we’ve got enough already.
“Compared to the challenge he (Mat) now faced, Tuon seemed to be an easy knot to untie.”
That’s not an easy knot to untie, Knotai!
Worst thing about this whole book, IMHO, was Siuan’s death. She was an important character, I liked her, and the way her death was handled SUCKED. Not dramatic, not important, not even on screen! Just “Oh, by they way, Siuan is dead.” WTF, people? I wanted to throw the book across the damn room. *grumps some more*
Well, it was pretty dramatic and Siuan appeared to save Mat’s life so her death wasn’t bad, so to speak. As for not on screen, I find it easy to imagine- the Grey Man must’ve done her.
Well, I’ve said it before: too much story for one book. The final set should have been four books, allowing a more RJ than BS approach. I appreciated the one-page demise of The Prophet, because this character arc seemed an absolute dead end, but some of these other endings are pretty rough chiseling, and hardly befit such major characters.
18. neverspeakawordagainTUESDAY DECEMBER 10, 2013 07:04PM EST; “…Here’s the entire list of character who had at least 5 POV scenes who died before A Memory of Light…” I am amazed at the stats that some keep (or dig up), but this is great. We know who the key people are, but there are many others in this story who get some real stage time. Fun stuff. Thanks.
Leigh, I have come to you rereads much later than most. I started them by reading all of your ebooks. Of course, I had to read books 13 and 14 because, well, duh. I have finally caught up with you and it’s going to feel weird having to wait for the installments.
I’ve very much enjoyed them. I appreciate all the work you put into this. I also tend to agree with most everything you say, so that’s probably helped how I feel about them. Looking forward to finishing these with you. Thanks!
Couldn’t agree more about lack of closure between Siuan and Moiraine, the ones who stood at the beginning of the DR saga. They were clearly still close friends, who cared about each other a lot in TGH. We certainly could see that Moiraine _wasn’t_ indifferent, as it was one of her rare PoVs.
Generally, I’d have liked to see more character moments and less depiction of Trolloc carnage. As well as more emotional reactions during/to the carnage.
Speaking of Siuan’s death, I am of two minds about Min’s viewing playing a role – for one thing, Siuan and Bryne certainly have been a few miles apart in the past. Bryne rode out of camp for a few days time and again to deal with various issues, Gawyn’s raids, etc. Didn’t Bryne even do so while Min was still in the camp? I am not sure. So, it seemed odd that this time it would suddenly prove fatal.
OTOH, it ups Siuan’s heroic potential, that she knew that she was going into certain death, so OK.
I am also of 2 minds about an almost off-screen death, when other, more minor characters got lengthy depictions of their badassery. Realistic and unexpected, sure… But I kinda wanted some blaze of glory for Siuan too.
What rubbed me raw is how Min didn’t bring up that Tuon owed her and Mat’s survival not just to Min herself, but to an AS, who knowingly sacrificed herself to save her/them. One of the many wasted opportunities to challenge the Seanchan stance on damane and sow seeds of hope for a positive resolution there… But I am getting a bit ahead of things, heh.
Anyway, I actually expected Siuan’s death, since Moiraine survived the Finn, and her and Bryne deferring their relationship was sufficiently omnious and full of foreboding.
In fact, I expected a decent amount of carnage among the first and second- tier characters, which didn’t really materialize.
Re: Gawyn, how many lives did Egwene’s unplanned attack on the heights in a futile attempt to save him cost?
And I still can’t fathom how he was supposed to survive the TG and live a long life if he didn’t bond with Egwene. Because, wouldn’t Gawyn have felt similarly under Elayne’s command? And wouldn’t he have done something stupid, like disobeying Mat’s orders, etc., out of jealousy? Oh, well…
Poor Birgitte. I have to admit that while I too was sure she’d get her memories back if the Horn called her, I never expected it to play out the way it did. Even though I suspected she might die, considering how often she had to come to Elayne’s rescue all the time. So, I was glad to see how this particular plot was resolved.
“Elayne replies that she thinks Mat only acts simple so he can get away with more.” So much truth spoken in this passage.
The scene with Elayne and Galad was fun, not only because he finally was speaking sense and it was great to see Elayne read him the riot act about her pregnancy and comment on the idiocy of assuming women should be spared in battle even though they can be just as evil as men, but because of, again, the call backs. There’s the fact that even though Elayne got angry at Galad for wanting to keep her out of battle for the sake of the babies, she immediately turns around when Mat’s note shows up and berates Galad in her thoughts for not “taking concern for the comfort of a pregnant woman” when he didn’t show her what the note said–typical WOT hypocrisy! Also, as much as so many hated the letter from Mat in ToM, I loved the call back here where Elayne notes that the pressure of battle made him a better clerk. Keeping in mind her comment about him only acting simple really underscores the point of that ToM letter, I think.
As for one of the Children having an artifact making him immune to channeling, that’s only a problem if it were someone like Byar. Galad, for all his faults, would not use it to harm Aes Sedai. He only does what he sees as right, and while he might at some point see it as right to attack an Aes Sedai when she is helpless (setting aside the indirect effects of the Power), he also would see it as right to a) do what Mat ordered him to do only and b) return it when he was done with his task, because he is a man of his word. (Hence why even when he’s badly injured he insists on Berelain getting the medallion back to Mat.) So, he wouldn’t have it long enough to do ill with it anyway.
I have to comment on Logain’s arrogance, refusing to do what Mat ordered him to do when (clearly) he came to the tent solely to ask for the man’s permission to go after Demandred. But that’s par for the course, especially post-Turning attempt. I also have to comment on the nice red herring again–that right after Logain is sent off to go after Demandred, Min declares his “glory of men” is still to come, continuing to mislead us as to what the glory would be, since so many of us thought it would be killing Taim and killing Demandred instead would be a nice substitute.
I know a lot of people felt cheated by this, but completely aside from the thematic and emotional resonance of what Logain’s glory was, Jordan loved to mislead and misdirect us. Look at how we all thought there was no way Mat’s link to the Horn could be broken because of Jordan’s implication that Rand’s balefire undoing his death had also undone the broken link–so that we were caught completely by surprise when it turned out there could be a new Hornsounder. Or how we all thought the Shadow ordered silly and pointless raids on the seals which failed, when it turned out they’d succeeded in swapping them for copies.
So basically I would put the fulfillment of Logain’s glory in the same camp, and also like what the fate of Carlinya turned out to be–all cases where Jordan deliberately tripped us up with our own expectations and “fanon”. Or to put it another way, whether you like such developments or not, they fit in with the ones Jordan already pulled on us, so it’s very clear that all these events in AMoL were part of his original plotting, not anything Sanderson came up with.
Side note: how is it Siuan knows how to kill with the Power? Could that be another “secret” Blue weave that actually isn’t secret at all? I also like the continuity nod there–we were told by Liandrin that killing with the Power is akin to Healing and requires just as much facility, which is why she couldn’t do it but Chesmal could. Siuan has very little Healing ability, but if it takes only a little Power to stop the heart, then she could manage it.
As for Siuan’s fate… *sighs* I was heartbroken. I stared in shock too when I read that scene, and re-read it several times just like Leigh. But it made perfect sense to me that it could happen suddenly and randomly like that, that’s the way war is. (I am pretty sure her dying this way, if it wasn’t planned by Jordan himself, was something Sanderson and Team Jordan came up with to be true to Jordan’s experiences in war and how they informed WOT.) And I have to bitterly but admiringly acknowledge the brilliance of misdirection again in how we all thought the Siuan-Bryne viewing had been fulfilled in TGS.
At the same time though, I kind of expected it would happen at some point in the Last Battle. We knew ever since TFoH (when Egwene spoke to Moiraine about Siuan being deposed and supposedly killed) and also had it confirmed in New Spring that Siuan and Moiraine had dedicated their lives to the search for the Dragon Reborn, and many of us assumed that would become literal at some point. And after Moiraine seemed to die but we found out she hadn’t, it stood to reason we’d lose Siuan instead. Her being proud of her successor in Egwene only underscores her sense of doom. (But as I said two weeks ago, having Egwene die too was a nasty subversion.) But to have it happen this way…damn. And poor Min, as always unable to prevent what she sees…
I know some would consider the sudden slew of deaths in AMoL to be tacky, a way of cashing in on it being the last book when suddenly all bets are off, doing it just for the shock value. But again I am pretty sure this is all how Jordan planned it, and that the reason he held the deaths back so long was so they would indeed shock and hurt us more, but also because it makes the most sense to have them happen at this point–aside from the fact it’s the Last Battle, when the danger is at its heighest in the series, there’s the in-story reasons that the Pattern guided everyone’s threads to make sure they accomplished tasks and made it to Tarmon Gai’don, so they couldn’t die until now…and by the same token, with the Dark One this close to freedom and the Pattern coming apart thanks to all the balefire-usage, it’s more likely for threads to break and death to happen everywhere. And of course, the deaths wouldn’t hurt us so much if we hadn’t gotten so much time to know and love these characters.
It is sad that Moiraine didn’t get to meet up with Siuan again, so far as we know–I agree that not knowing what was said and just assuming it happened off-screen is poor writing, but with so much going on to devote attention to, and with that being such an important interaction, I think we have to assume it did. After all, we didn’t see either Siuan or especially Moiraine doing much after the latter appeared at Merrilor, so there’s plenty of chances for it to have happened, and we know that she and Lan did meet up again. But I can’t fault the fact or the nature of Siuan’s death…only regret her passing. I’d make a comment about her sheltering in the Creator’s hand, but I think a boat and fish metaphor would be better. Maybe something about the lionfish having claimed her, but her boat is still sailing onward?
@3 cass: While you have a very good point about Elayne, I am fairly certain where she was during the Last Battle and what she was doing was dictated by Jordan…so blame him for overestimating the capabilities of a pregnant woman, not Sanderson. Also Team Jordan okayed this, and they include several women too, so…
@18, 19 neverspeakaword: I agree about Romanda, that was when I knew as well. And a very good point about that same scene with Egwene and Moiraine I referenced–foreshadowing not only the fact Siuan could really die at all (and Moiraine, sort of), but also that the two of them wouldn’t have much emotional connection or interaction before the end even if they did meet up again.
@26 Faculty Guy: I agree, and said as much above, about the Pattern keeping everyone alive until now, though see also my thought–that not just a matter of neutrality and balance, but the Dark One’s influence on the Pattern, could have made it harder to keep the threads intact and people alive. Though I will also note that the Pattern doesn’t have to care about people in order to weave in ta’veren, just about its own existence and integrity, the maintaining of which is the purpose ta’veren serve.
@27 Greyshade: No death scene for Bryne, no, but we do see him dead, with Elayne closing his eyes and crying over him. It is brief, but it hit and moved me. As for Egwene, we get Rand’s reaction at the time, Mat when he hears the news, Perrin’s when he does, and Nynaeve’s. Perhaps not as deep and strong as they should have been, but they were there. Amys was a bit busy fighting at Thakan’dar, and Faile was stuck in the Blight, and of course Egwene’s parents were back in Emond’s Field. So basically all the scenes you wanted to see couldn’t happen until after the battles were over. It would have been great to see them, but we can assume they still happened.
@29 Areckahn: *gets choked up* While I didn’t forget about that statement of Siuan’s, I didn’t even make the connection to this scene. Thank you for that. *sniffles*
@38 Tektonica: Agreed, that at least would have been good to see.
@45 Isilel: Good point re: Min using Siuan’s sacrifice to shake up Tuon. However at the time this happened, they were fighting for their lives, and immediately thereafter Mat and Tuon pull their ruse of severing ties, so all she could do was focus on finding the spy and revealing them. I would like to think that if she does go to Seanchan with Mat and Tuon, Min will bring it up then.
Re: Gawyn, I believe the subject has been debated before, but to cut to the chase, I think the implication is that if Gawyn hadn’t loved/been devoted to Egwene, he wouldn’t have done the things he did that cost him his life. And I think that bears merit–if he hadn’t been so focused on Egwene, he probably wouldn’t have joined Elaida, so he would have been with Elayne in Caemlyn, come with her to the Last Battle, and she and Galad would have kept him in line. The implication is that he loved Egwene more than his own sister, or at least that he would do more reckless things to protect her than he would Elayne. This doesn’t say many good things about Gawyn, but there it is. (Of course if he hadn’t been with Egwene she would have been killed by the Bloodknives–unless without his help there wouldn’t have been a Tower split and the Bloodknives would have killed Elaida instead…)
Caught up Longtime Lurker Seldom Poster. I wish this story could be done again, but flip the script . Female Dragon. Male AesSedai,and Women Ta veran. Would it be awesome or what ? ( Sigh) Depressed. Agree with the others Death of Suian, Terrible. No meeting with Moiraine Worse
@mikeinphoenix – Yes, that person did get an advanced copy of AMOL. I messaged Brandon about him but was told a solution was already in the works. Wonderful job, Team Jordan!
Clarification: I messaged Brandon back when that person first made the comment that after 20 plus years of loyal fandom, he would no survive a terminal illness long enough to be able to read AMOL thanks to the release date being pushed back. I messaged Brandon right after reading the comment and he was already on top of things. Excellent job and definitely the right thing to do!
@48/49 – Thank you! both for following up, and for letting us know. I’m so glad to hear that it was done. Well done, Team Jordan!
48/49, I remeber how I wished she/he could read the end, and it’s really great to hear they made it possible. I hope it got there in time.
macster @46
Re: Gawyn and his choices
That is the whole point of what Egwene saw in the Dream, wasn’t it? He had two paths before him, one where he lived long and died peacefully, and another where his life was short and he died violently, and that the decision point would be Egwene herself. She was the crossroad that Gawyn had to choose. Of course it wasn’t only her fault. Had Gawyn decided to stay where he was and watch her back, he’d likely still be alive.
*sigh*
I’m just going to note, again, that Gawyn was already dying from his use of the bloodknife rings to save Egwne from the Sharans who overran the Aes Sedai camp. Whether he went after Demandred or not, he was doomed. (Unless he fessed up and they found a way to Heal the damage, but I don’t believe that was possible.) So Gawyn becoming a Warder was the path that doomed him…and Egwene.
Speaking of Egwene and red herrings – Siuan recounting her pride in her successor/protege Egwene shortly before they both died is full of pathos for me. So is Egwene dying despite telling Tuon that she intended to “live for centuries” and watch the Seanchan crumble. I mean…I get that Egwene’s intense reactions to the Seanchan might have gotten in the way, post Tarmon Gaidon…but I still had a visceral thrill at her verbal smackdown of the Seanchan practice of slavery, and I hate that she won’t get to see that boast come to fruition in any way.
I also hate that Tuon will probably think she beat Egwene in some way.
Isilel @45 – good thoughts on being of two minds about the manner of Siuan’s death. Me too. Re: Siuan and Gareth having been apart before – I don’t see the viewing as being “you’re doomed the minute you’re apart!” I recall it as being more “stay close – there’s going to be a time when you both need each other, and if you’re not together, you’re doomed!”
Not so much that they couldn’t ever separate – but if they got too far apart, they wouldn’t be able to reach other when the time came. As we saw.
Also, you said this:
I thought Egwene decided to follow the plan set out by Mat and try to rescue Gawyn by pressing the attack as ordered, rather than Traveling ahead? I think you’re judging her unfairly.
Regarding the dearth of death of Lightside Heroes…
On my first read of WOT, I remember I was very very sad when Ingtar died, and ever so sorry for Perrin when his family was slaughtered.
But these weren’t major players, to me. The first Hero–yes I say HERO–to die that made me actually cry, and whose loss felt like a blow to my heart, had 4 legs, not two. Hopper to my way of thinking was a true Hero. He had free will, and chose Light. He was a teacher, a devoted friend, a leader. He chose to give his life, twice, for Good. Geez, I am weeping as I type this. He was finally able to fly, yet his life dwindled as he fell, after valiantly saving his pupil and friend. This was a hero of the series to me, a character I liked and valued as much as Thom, more than others. Moiraine and Elayne, for example, I recognize their worth, but I can’t say I really like them. I’d much rather have Thom, Hopper, and Perrin over for dinner. Some of the others? meh.
So often, the animals and sidekicks are sacrificed, from Bambi’s mom, Old Yeller, the Tinker’s little dog in “Lassie Come Home”, to Andy Garcia in Black Rain and Anthony Edwards in Top Gun. My husband and I often try to guess who will turn out to be “Goose” in films and TV shows. Sometimes the loss advances the plot, sometimes the loss seems gratuitous. Bela, to me, was gratuitous. Harriet said her survival would be “cheating.” I disagree.
Anyway, I mourn Hopper, Siuan, Rhuarc, even poor immature Gawyn. Maybe he will have better luck, next time around.
Regarding Rhuarc, before this book, balefire had been used by Team Light on occasion, and saved the day. In AMOL, however, balefire = BAD! Mustn’t Touch! I must admit, when Graendal zapped Rhuarc, I kept beating on the steering wheel, screaming, “somebody BALEFIRE THE BITCH! just one little exception… please?”. (I was listening to the audiobook, you see.)
Well, on to the next post. Late as usual.
Long past tardy, as usual. Guess I’ll tie the knot on this thread…
Galad:
Mat’s snarky letter aside (though: heh), I immediately had a sinking feeling on first read that Galad’s mission to take out Sharan channelers would send him straight to Demandred. Boy, I hate being right all the time…
Siuan:
*sobs a little* Burn me, but I liked her and Bryne. What a way to go, knowing she and Bryne should have stayed joined at the hip! Ugh.
And I totally agree that we should have had some on-screen closure with Siuan and Moiraine, who after all started this mess together. All pillow-friend stuff aside, would it have hurt to at least have someone’s POV mention them conversing in passing? Just saying.
Off to see how the latest thread is doing.
Bzzz™.