Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day, Wheel of Time Reread Redux? Thou art more wordy and argumentative – just how I like it!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 43 and 44 of The Dragon Reborn, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 43: Shadowbrothers
Redux Commentary
Pressed into the top of the stone mounting block were two prints, as if a huge hound had rested its forepaws there. The smell that was almost burned sulphur was strongest here. Dogs don’t make footprints in stone. Light, they don’t!
[…] “Darkhound,” Lan said, and Zarine gasped. Loial moaned softly. For an Ogier. “A Darkhound leaves no mark on dirt, blacksmith, not even on mud, but stone is another matter. There hasn’t been a Darkhound seen south of the Mountains of Dhoom since the Trolloc Wars.”
I think I got a little into the various mythologies Jordan cannibalized to create his Darkhounds at one point, but Linda Taglieri has summed up that subject wonderfully enough in this post that I don’t feel the need to rehash it further.
One thing I’ve always found frustrating, though, is that I can never seem to find any direct reference that matches WOT’s Darkhounds’ ability to leave pawprints in stone. Linda’s post mentions that the legends of spectral dogs in Britain speak of them leaving clawmarks in stone, but that’s not quite the same thing. It drives me crazy, because I could swear I’ve come across a more direct allusion or source somewhere before, and yet I cannot remember it, and Google is of little help.
(If you’d like a good laugh, see what results you get when you Google “dog pawprints in stone”. In retrospect, I really should have seen that one coming.)
ETA: Intrepid commenter “aFan” has since pointed me to Arthurian legend, which recounts Arthur’s dog Cavall (or Cafal) leaving a footprint in stone:
“There is another wonder in the country called Builth. There is a heap of stones there, and one of the stones placed on top of the pile has the footprint of a dog on it. When he hunted Trwch Trwyth, Cafal, the warrior Arthur’s hound, impressed his footprint on the stone, and Arthur later brought together the pile of stones, under the stone in which was his dog’s footprint, and it is called Carn Cafal. Men come and take the stone in their hands for the space of a day and a night, and on the morrow it is found upon the stone pile.” ~Nennius, British History
Sweet, I knew I wasn’t crazy!
I mentioned in the original commentary that I found it puzzling that Perrin never has any more prophetic dreams after TSR, which was true at the time, but it turns out that he has at least a couple more, in TOM. That’s kind of a long dry spell, admittedly, but I was gratified that it hadn’t been abandoned entirely, anyway.
Especially since the one in this chapter, about Mat dicing with the Dark One, is probably one of my favorite prophecies in the series. I’m not really sure why, except that maybe the way it works on several levels, metaphorical and otherwise, makes me happy.
What is real is not real. What is not real is real. Flesh is a dream, and dreams have flesh.
“That doesn’t tell me anything, Hopper. I do not understand.” The wolf looked at [Perrin], as if he had said he did not understand that water was wet. “You said I had to see something, and you showed me Ba’alzamon, and Lanfear.”
Heartfang. Moonhunter.
This tells me two things: (a) wolves are super annoying to talk to if you are looking for straightforward information, but (b) would totally pwn everyone at a poetry slam. You are welcome for that image, by the way.
And (c) I have to wonder if even Ishy and Lanfear might not get a bit of a thrill to know that wolves consider them important enough to give them names. I’m pretty sure I would get a little frisson of “wow, so cool” no matter how evil I was.
Also, if I were Perrin, I might be sort of jealous, because I’m sorry, but “Moonhunter” is way more awesome a name than “Young Bull”.
Suddenly he remembered Min saying he should run from a beautiful woman. Once he had recognized Lanfear in that wolf dream, he had thought Min must mean her—he did not think it was possible for a woman to be any more beautiful than Lanfear—but she was just in a dream.
Nope, dude, it was Lanfear. It was soooooo very Lanfear. Has no one ever told you the old saw about how your first choice is usually the correct one?
Chapter 44: Hunted
Redux Commentary
[Faile:] “No, I will not swear to go another way. Whether you lead me to the Horn of Valere or not, not even whoever does find the Horn will have a story such as this. I think this story will be told for the ages, Aes Sedai, and I will be part of it.”
“No!” Perrin snapped. “That is not good enough. What do you want?”
Actually, Perrin, that’s probably more than good enough reason for a lot of people. A lot of crazy people, granted, but, well. I have to wonder, if confronted with such obviously world-changingly important events and people, and bolstered by the boundless confidence of a sixteen-year-old in her own immortality, would I be able to walk away either?
Not sure, honestly. I have a terrible suspicion that I would not. Even knowing that I am about 1,000% more likely to be the red shirt than I would to be the mysterious love interest.
“And why me, Moiraine? Why me? Rand is the bloody Dragon Reborn!”
[Perrin] heard the gasps from Zarine and Nieda, and only then realized what he had said. Moiraine’s stare seemed to skin him like the sharpest steel. Hasty bloody tongue. When did I stop thinking before I speak?
Perrin appears to be acting especially idiotic in this chapter. First with his at least somewhat irrational freak-out over Faile, and now this, which is a simply epic fuckup. I can’t even blame Moiraine for ambiguously threatening him right after; she probably wishes she didn’t even have to be that vague.
(As a side note, it would most definitely be the presumable inability to use sarcasm and hyperbole that would do me in re: swearing the First Oath. The road rage alone would probably kill me.)
“What did you do?”
“Something forbidden,” Moiraine said coolly. “Forbidden by vows almost as strong as the Three Oaths.” She took Aldieb’s reins from the girl, and patted the mare’s neck, calming her. “Something not used in nearly two thousand years. Something I might be stilled just for knowing.”
I don’t think we really understand this until later, but Moiraine’s ability to use balefire at all was an indicator of just how effin’ strong she was in the Power before she did her POW stint with the Eelfinn. I don’t remember if balefire was mentioned specifically in this context (though I think it was), but it becomes clear over the course of the series that you have to be pretty high up on the strength ranking scale to able to even attempt to do certain weaves, like Traveling.
Of course, The Companion now tells us exactly how strong Moiraine was – 13(1), if you’re curious, which means that before the Supergirls showed up (along with other outliers like Nicola, Aviendha, and Alivia), Moiraine was in the top rank, strengthwise. After all the super-channelers started coming out of the woodwork, as they tend to do in apocalyptic times, her rank was dropped to 13.
There’s no indication in the text that Moiraine was ever really bothered by this (hell, there’s no real indication she even cared that her strength had dropped to 66(54) after her time with the Eelfinn, which is damn near rock bottom on either scale), but I would be amazed if she wasn’t at least a little irked about it privately, even if she had the class to keep it to herself. God knows I would secretly be terribly pouty about suddenly going from #1 to #13 of anything, even if the reason why had nothing to do with me, technically.
Mat + Thom + fireworks = still hilarious.
I parenthetically asked, in the original commentary, if Mat and Faile ever meet on-screen, and do you know, I don’t think they ever do? Ironically, they were supposed to meet up in AMOL, when Faile was tasked to get the Horn of Valere to Mat, but since that plan went about as spectacularly off the rails as was humanly possible, it never happened then either. Huh.
Although, we can be about 95% sure they did meet off-screen, during that interval of time when everyone was hanging out in the Stone of Tear between the end of TDR and the beginning of TSR (about two weeks). Which, incidentally, is the last time most of our main cast are together in one place for the rest of the entire series. That still blows my mind sometimes, and not in a good way.
But I’ll complain about that another day, for today’s post is done! Have a lovely Memorial Day weekend if that is a thing which happens in your neck of the woods, and I’ll see y’all next Tuesday!
Leigh, I think all the wolves had a name for all of the Forsaken. IIRC, Perrin noted that the name for Graendal when she and Lanfear were talking in AMoL. It was only that Perrin (or the wolves themselves) never had reason to say one of the other Forsaken’s wolf names.
One of the best lines in the series is Moiraine’s response to Perrin’s question as to what they will do upon learning that one of the Forsaken rule in Illian: asking Perrin sarcastically if he wants get better acquainted with Sammael.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
The woman laughing at Liandrin in Perrin’s dreams is probably Lanfear, but why doesn’t Perrin recognize her?
Good for Moiraine that Sammael seems to be asleep. How did she find out who he was?
This chapter is really just another example of how much is actually left out of these books. Moiraine’s point of view through the first few books could be another book just by itself.
Being 18 and freshly smitten will lead to making a lot of idiotic decisions, as many men can personally attest.
RJ said in a blog post once that Aes Sedai could use sarcasm.
I always liked wolves calling Darkhounds “Shadowbrothers.” Even though some of them are presumably female, having once been packs of wolves. Maybe it’s like Dreadlords and Gray Men — mixed gender but with a male title. Mph.
The Darkhound “had gone to report to its master.” What does that mean? Can Sammael pull information from a Darkhound’s mind, as it it were a raven?
WoT wolves would indeed be good at poetry slams. Especially against a guy I know who won a slam with a poem about wanting to be a raven, which would be a bad idea to recite in Randland.
I can excuse Perrin for flipping out over being targeted by Darkhounds and Forsaken. Mat is a dodo for cutting open a firework and tossing it in a fire out of curiosity.
Yeah I was gonna say, I know I’ve seen a Jordan quote where sarcasm and hyperbole are explicitly allowed.
Now, I’ve never understood that. I think that’s attributing too much thinking ability to the oath. I mean, to an extent you can say that the Aes Sedai in question will know if the person is blind or not, but what if they don’t? It seems like a weird loophole, and I’m glad it never actually came up in the actual series.
The dog footprint in rock is connected to the arthurian legend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavall
Y’all have already covered the topics I had in mind. Except balefire. Where did Moiraine learn the weave? Was it something she intuited, as Nynaeve did recently?
I feel Moiraine learned balefire while visiting the two sisters’ library (Adeleas and Vandene?).
The Darkhound, and why Lan and Moiraine couldn’t sense it: I think I agree with the Encyclopedia–while we later encounter a different version of Darkhounds* that are larger, won’t be stopped by running water, and have a healing factor that keeps them from dying except by balefire, the fact these are just regular Darkhounds (since Perrin kills one with his arrows in the next chapter) suggests that the one outside the inn was simply warded, the same way the Draghkar was at Tifan’s Well. Presumably by Sammael, which implies if Liandrin was indeed responsible for that shielding, she was probably taught it by Mesaana (the only Forsaken permanently in the Tower at that time, who was willing to teach Third Agers, and who we know sent out the coven since she was proud of the trap with Be’lal in Tear).
Speaking of Sammael, I have to laugh at the fact he dreams himself taller in TAR. What a Napoleon complex, but then the Forsaken are just that petty. (Though being short myself IRL, I should be more sympathetic–but then I didn’t sell my soul to Ultimate Evil either.)
Perrin’s visions: I suspect the reason they disappeared, at least for a while, was indeed because they were the same sort of shtick as Egwene’s dreams and Min’s visions, so Jordan either didn’t want too many prophetic devices at once or he thought keeping Perrin’s going was superfluous. And to be fair, as we go along Egwene’s dreams become more and more important, and the personal element in Min seeing the visions around individual people would never not be useful. (Also, while Egwene Dreams when just sleeping regularly and Min sees visions in the real world, Perrin can only do this in TAR, so it’s less easily accessible.) Still, at least Jordan did have a good in-story reason for them disappearing: Perrin basically does everything he can to avoid the wolves, which includes TAR since Hopper is there; in TSR the only reason he goes there is to find out why the wolves are gone and to fight Slayer; and after Dumai’s Wells he avoids the wolves not just due to fears of becoming like Noam, but because of how he got so many killed. It isn’t until he returns to TAR regularly and learns to use the wolf dream, because he needs to in order to escape the dreamspike and the Whitecloaks, that he is in a position to see the visions again. And by this point Egwene’s dreams (which had also been removed from the story for a while due to Halima) are less frequent (and according to Jordan, less true/useful as the Dark One gets closer to breaking free), so it makes sense Perrin’s ability would return to fill that void.
On an interesting side note, I wonder if Perrin’s ability, too, is less reliable closer to Tarmon Gai’don? It would seem not, since the visions he had in ToM were accurate, with the confusion about their meaning stemming from Perrin’s interpretation, not a lack of validity in them.
Anyway, can’t pass it by without mentioning, again, the vision of the Supergirls, Liandrin, and Lanfear. I think it’s my favorite because it absolutely encapsulates the personalities and insight of the latter two, and the nature (and success rate) of their schemes. That and I love when Lanfear can be a smug bitch, and be right about it. I do agree though that the Mat vision is also awesome and iconic–probably because, as Leigh says, it is so true on many levels, both literal and metaphorical, that even though it specifically refers to his bet with Gaebril and racing after Comar, it can also be said to represent Mat’s entire attitude toward life/the Shadow for the rest of the series (whether he wants to admit it or not).
Interestingly enough, one of the Forsaken does learn the wolves have a name for them–Perrin tells Lanfear her wolf name in AMoL. Lanfear being Lanfear, she doesn’t show any kind of awe or being impressed by this, only amusement (since she says the name is wrong, she doesn’t hunt the moon because it is already hers). But since we weren’t in her head at the time, who knows how she really felt about it. Being as crazy as she was though, I sadly doubt she’d have had the reaction you’d have liked. I’d like to think, though, that philosopher Elan Morin would have at least found the idea intriguing, since he is familiar with many unusual abilities throughout the Ages and may have known of wolfbrothers in his time (that could in fact be why Slayer was made, assuming it was Ishy’s idea and not something the Dark One did on his own).
Even if it is part of her degrading him (albeit with only light mockery), I still have to laugh at Faile saying Perrin needs more hair on his chest. Particularly considering the beard he grows later (and that I seem to recall by ToM he does have more hair there!).
Re: Perrin’s idiocy–I can’t help thinking that this is like Rand suddenly blurting out the whole story of the journey from the Two Rivers to Loial when he met him in Caemlyn. Some theorized that this was a lone example of a ta’veren affecting themselves, because only the truth would have earned Loial’s friendship and loyalty and Rand would have need of him. Similarly, it could be the Pattern made Perrin blurt out what he did because notice what immediately happens after–Moiraine decrees this means Faile is bound to them and can never leave. And clearly Faile being one of the heroes is essential–in fact considering it’s his love for her that allows Perrin to break free of Lanfear’s Compulsion, it could be argued that Faile being one of the heroes was the crux on which the entire Pattern and Tarmon Gai’don hinged. So it makes sense Perrin’s own ta’veren nature would force him to blurt this out, to ensure Faile would join them. (Whether Moiraine’s later slip of the tongue is the same thing or not is less clear.)
That said, I think he does have one point in questioning Faile’s motives–because as much as she can see this is going to be a momentous quest that changes the world, a legend she wants to be a part of, Faile also just as obviously wants to come along because of her interest in Perrin.
BTW, I think there is a fairly simple explanation for how Moiraine identified Sammael (and Be’lal, when they get to Tear): she used her blue headstone to eavesdrop on Brend and Samon. Presumably they said something which identified them as Forsaken, perhaps she overheard them talking to Darkfriends. Perhaps Ishamael showed up to talk to one of them and called them by name. It is also possible drawings of them, or physical information about them (such as Sammael’s distinctive scar or Be’lal’s hair) was mentioned in books that Vandene and Adeleas had.
I…am very glad Perrin stopped himself in time from reaching out to the Darkhounds. I don’t know what would have happened if he had (I doubt something that simple would allow him to be claimed by the Shadow, for example), but at the very least the experience would surely have been very unpleasant. Rather like what happened in Eddings’s Belgariad when Hettar reached out to the Hrulgin…
While being able to create balefire does make Moiraine badass, I’m not certain if this says much about her strength. Because while she was at the very top of the Aes Sedai One Power ranking before the Supergirls came along, she also can only create enough balefire to destroy someone “by a few seconds.” So even if her strength is what allowed her to channel it in the first place, it must have been only just enough.
Still love the bit where Moiraine was the one to accidentally spill the beans about Mat and the Horn to Faile. What I wouldn’t give to know her thoughts at that moment!
As dumb as it was for Mat to not only cut open the firework but toss the contents into the fire, Thom’s reaction is still priceless.
The scene with the merchant Darkfriend I think illustrates best why Mat’s chivalry isn’t as bad as Rand’s–because while he doesn’t want to kill women and does everything he can to avoid it, he still will do it when necessary. And while we can wish he’d be as upset about having to kill men (or anyone really) the fact he can mourn the women he has to kill even as he does it makes him more sympathetic than Rand for the most part. It shows he’s still a hero and a good person (because he isn’t being cavalier and heartless about killing, of course), and there’s nothing wrong with regret as long as it doesn’t stop you from doing what must be done.
As for Mat and Faile, nope, never onscreen. We know they were both in the Stone together in TSR so must have met and talked at some point (in her scenes with Perrin she certainly knew who he was, and I seem to recall her thoughts about him, even if they weren’t very charitable, at least showed familiarity with his character). By the time she and Perrin come to Caemlyn in LOC he’s already gone to Salidar, and when Perrin makes it back to Caemlyn and Mat is already there, they meet up with each other (and Thom) but Faile isn’t there. I find myself really wishing we could have seen them talk. It would have been a lot of fun seeing how a woman like her would deal with the charming rogue–for some reason I think neither one of them would get one over on the other–and what she possibly could have said to the Hornsounder. But considering their meeting in AMoL didn’t get to happen either, it’s like the Pattern is trying to keep them apart. Maybe getting the two of them together would have been a disaster, hah! Ah well.
*I’m not sure where Jordan revealed this, but it’s listed on TV Tropes, saying that there are two different kinds of Darkhounds to explain why the ones which appear in TFoH are not like this pack here. The implication seems to be that the bigger and stronger ones are the actual Wild Hunt while these lesser Darkhounds are not explicitly part of that group.
@1 AndrewHB: Agreed, hah!
@2 birgit: That is an extremely good question! Unless TAR/the Pattern was obscuring her features or blocking Perrin’s recognition, the only other thing I can guess is that perhaps she didn’t look like herself because of her tendency to wear One Power disguises. Or maybe for some reason in the vision she had her back to him?
As for how Moiraine learned who Lord Brend was, see my theory above.
@3 cdrew147: You’re not kidding!
@6 AeronaGreenjoy: Considering the information we get about how ravens are used by the Shadow, and Graendal’s thoughts about animal spies when she is using the dove at the start of ToM, I think it’s pretty likely yes, Sammael could pull the information from the Darkhound’s mind.
@8 aFan: Fascinating! Makes sense it’d be another Arthurian reference. And fitting too, since the Wild Hunt, which is revealed to be the Darkhounds in the Last Battle, is used by Susan Cooper in another series that draws on the Arthurian mythos, The Dark Is Rising. (Not to mention Cafall!)
@9 Ways: For a long time people thought she learned it at Adeleas and Vandene’s place, but it’d be rather odd for something forbidden like that to be in their library. (Of course Shadar Logoth was written about there too.) Short of that, no one knows where or how she learned it.
aFan @@@@@ 8:
Ah-HAH! I knew I wasn’t crazy!
Thanks!
I was reading the Companion the other day, and the Darkfriends entry says that ‘normal’ Darkfriends think that some non-Black Aes Sedai know their secret signals. I like to think that Moiraine does indeed know a few and used it to shake loose some indicators of Sammael being the Forsaken in Illian.
@11 I don’t think the Forsaken’s oaths allow them THAT great a level of control over Shadowspawn. Not without the True Power, at least. Ravens and crows are implied to report to Myrddraal, after all, and I think only Myrddraal have that capacity.
sps49 @10 and macster @11
Yeah, there’s the thing about Moiraine (maybe) learning balefire from the Namelle sisters in TGH. But I keep getting a deja vu moment about Moiraine using a weave that was described as if it were balefire somewhere in TEotW or early in TGH (bright bar of light, sparkly motes). I haven’t been able to find the passage again, unfortunately. Am I making that up?
@13: Then how could the Darkhound “report” to Sammael?
I’ve long wondered how the Dragkhar in TEotW reported to the Myrddraal. Moiraine was able to mislead it about where she was going, which indicates that it spoke its mistaken conclusions instead of having what it had seen drawn directly from its mind.
@15 These were the early books, where the mechanics weren’t exactly super fleshed out yet and Moiraine kept saying weird things that were wrong. We never see any Forsaken talk to Shadowspawn who can’t talk back in later books, and I think that while they probably can tell a Darkhound what to do, Moiraine was being a bit optimistic in thinking they could actually give a ten point detailed report when they came back. Maybe Aginor was a Hound Whisperer?
I suppose Draghkar can talk. They’re clever enough to take orders and schedule attacks, after all.
Well, on the one hand it is neat that Moiraine is human and is often making it up as she goes, but I also found that her not being able to be a proper mentor to due to BS gender wars and the protagonists apparently needing to be fiercely independent and instinctively right from the get-go was somewhat aggravating. She is first presented as “female Gandalf”, but never actually allowed the respect and trust that he enjoyed from his charges – despite being similarly secretive. Oh, well.
Concerning Moiraine rediscovering balefire, I always thought that it is one of rare examples in WoT of a person figuring out something related to channeling not instinctively because of some in-born Talent, or extraordinary strength in OP (i.e. with little to no effort involved), but by logically applying channeling theory to achieve a desired effect, i.e. using scientific method.
AeronaGreenjoy @15:
We don’t know whether draghkar can talk, but even ravens and rats don’t transmit their observations to Myrdaraal from a distance, but have to physically report to them. Which is why detecting and killing them before they can is sufficient to keep one’s movements, etc. secret from the Shadow. And why wouldn’t Sammael have some Myrdraal serving him and keeping information from the vermin, corbies, and yes, Darkhounds, flowing?
@17 Gandalf was a family friend for decades (something like half a century) before the hobbits went on a quest with him. They’re not really comparable characters in that sense.
@18 exactly. Frodo was like ‘oh boy, uncle Gandalf with the fireworks’ at the start of the book, and then there’s 17 years from getting the ring until he actually leaves with presumably some levle of friendship, and of course Bilbo’s talked up Gandalf to Frodo for the first 33 years of his life, instead all but dying in Frodo’s arms saying ‘don’t trust Gandalf’. Like Tam does to Rand on Aes Sedai. All things considered it’s not surprising Frodo trusts Gandalf while no one trusts Moiraine.
It’s an odd and interesting immediate counter-point to TLoR, that while when Moiraine swoops saving the town with magic she gets the ‘female Gandalf’ label, before that, she was sooner a Ring Wraith in lady’s clothing alongside the real Wraiths, the Fades. While Padan Fain is actually Gandalf, even though he’ll progress to Gollum and then sort of Sauron before just being plain freaky.
I mean Fain comes in bringing news of the outside world and fireworks, he brings books and knowledge, and all that good Gandalf stuff and everyone trusts Fain their beloved merchant who visits every year at the start of spring.
Contrast that with Moiraine, intimidating with her finery and a scary body guard, asking shifty questions about the town’s children like she’s hunting for something, and it’s absolutely clear to everyone she has no business being there when her dress could probably buy two houses in the Two Rivers.
@19 Very interesting comparisons.
But the halfman Rand sees on the road has already firmly grabbed the ringwraith slot by the time Moiraine shows up. Still, very interesting points.
LordNarvi @18, fudgyvmp @19 – but then, there is also “The Hobbit”,where this is not the case, not to mention Gandalf’s interactions with people whose families did _not_ consider him a friend. Oh, well. It is just that female mentors are so very rare in SF and fantasy (and fiction in general) and Moiraine was initially touted as one, but then not really allowed to be one, because BS gender wars, which are, IMHO, one of the weaker points of WoT…
I’m still of the opinion that Perrin could kill those Darkhounds with his Two Rivers bow due to the rain. Darkhounds become vulnerable when exposed to water much the same way a Halfman can’t escape when cornered unless there are shadows. It’s not so much that they can’t swim across rivers, it’s more they are risk averse when running in smaller packs.
They leave smokey prints in stone. Heat seems to be a factor so naturally water would be an inhibitor. Just like a Golem begins to combust when exposed to an item that melts flows of the OP. It’s like it can’t maintain molecular cohesion apart from the OP where normal human beings can. Every advanced Shadow Spawn creation has a unique characteristic that is counter to the norms of the Pattern. Very apropos to the DO and the nature of the TP.
Maybe I’m overthinking it, but that’s the easiest connecting factor.
I would definitely be supremely irritated about being powered down. But I suppose stewing about it wouldn’t do much good. At least there are sa’angreal!
@19 – good observations! I never put the reversal together before. Thom (as a gleeman) might also be a bit of that Gandalf persona (that is, the persona of the worldly, quirky old man with more to him than he seems) but that’s as far as it goes, similarity wise.
The Gandalf comparison is superficial, as has been pointed out, and a slight bit of misdirection on RJ’s part in the first hundred pages of The Eye of the World. It is not ‘BS gender wars’ that prevent Moiraine from being an effective mentor (though there is plenty of that in the books, I’ll grant), but rather the (very deserved) reputation of the AS in general, and Mo.’s secretive, manipulative nature that does so. In short, the two characters are from different stories and serve different, though somewhat similar, purposes in those stories.
@14 Ways: I can’t recall anything like in TEotW or TGH. Maybe there was a scene where she made a bright light, but not where sparkly motes were left behind.
@13 LordNarvi, @15 AeronaGreenjoy: Precisely my point. Perhaps the Forsaken couldn’t “distill” it directly but needed to send the Shadowspawn to Shayol Ghul, but one way or another there must be some means of getting the info from them or what’s the point in having them as spies? Since they can otherwise be fooled, and in the case of wolves and ravens there isn’t even a way of directly communicating.
Although in the case of the Draghkar, it could be as simple as the fog fooled it (because it masked her trail) and whatever Fade it reported to was similarly fooled when it viewed the scene through the Draghkar’s own senses.
@16 LordNarvi: Hmm, good point. Still, just because Moiraine was often wrong or made false assumptions doesn’t mean she always did. On the other hand, we never get any indication that Sammael knew they’d been there or who they were (not that the few POV scenes from him later are of much use since he isn’t thinking about anything that happened in TDR in them), and we don’t even know if he was really the one sending Darkhounds after Rand in the Waste. Sammael was fooled, however, by the “message” about the truce that came from the guy who was wrung into a bloody mess, so it’s equally likely he discounted or was fooled by anything he may have gotten from Darkhounds, especially if it was indeed secondhand.
I think you meant Sammael not Aginor. That is an interesting idea, though.
@17 Isilel: You know, I always kind of thought that about Moiraine and balefire too. Also yes, it’s entirely likely Sammael had Fades working for him. We know he had various groups of Shadowspawn (see what happened in Shadar Logoth in ACOS), as well as Darkfriends, so why not them? Also being military-minded the way he was, he’d absolutely want Fades to help direct and control the Trollocs in his armies.
@26 No, I meant Aginor, since he made all of the Shadowspawn.
Fails waits for Mat to leave the area before visiting Perrin in a late book (badger II?). She has Mat=rogue-hold-the-loveable syndrome. They don’t ‘do’ chats..
Sorry. I forgot that we had already discussed the “reporting” of Shadow spies and Dragkhar here.
@27 *scratches his head* Right, but when you say Hound Whisperer I’m assuming you mean that in the sense of being able to communicate with them. But unless he was able to distill that ability in them when he created them, how would it do any good to anyone other than himself? Hence why I said Sammael, since he’s the one who was being discussed as possibly communicating with them, either here or when he (maybe) sends Hounds after Rand in the Waste.
However if Aginor had such an ability, and could make it part of the Darkhounds so that any Fade or Forsaken could communicate with and control them, that might solve the discrepancy.