Well, and a jocular corpulent Day of Tiw to you, party people! And as is tradition among my people on this particular calendarial epoch, let the good (Wheel of) Times (Reread Redux) roll!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 15 and 16 of The Dragon Reborn, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 15: The Gray Man
Redux Commentary
I assumed in the original commentary that Mesaana sent the Gray Man, and was also pretty dismissive of the suspicion cast on Sheriam. For the former, I don’t remember if it was ever refuted later, but barring that I see no reason to change the assumption that Mesaana was responsible.
As for the latter, well. Normally I would say that’ll learn me about assuming a red herring instead of genuine foreshadowing, but in Sheriam’s case I remain divided in my mind as to whether her Darkfriendliness was intended from the beginning, or… well, wasn’t. There’s still something about that whole reveal in TGS that sits oddly with me. But, it is what it is, and choosing to roll with the idea that Sheriam was Black Ajah all along certainly does make this chapter read differently than it did before.
So, I guess I am to assume now that Sheriam did indeed send the Gray Man, and the other one she finds dead in her bed later was a warning for screwing up the assassination attempt? I’m not sure, though. It makes as much sense to me to suppose that Mesaana was directly responsible for the attempt, and put the other Gray Man in Sheriam’s bed as a warning for interfering in the aftermath. I like the latter theory better, actually, because if Sheriam had actually been assigned the task of offing the Supergirls, then she is woefully incompetent, considering the absolute wealth of opportunities she must have had as Mistress of Novices to get rid of them in a much more subtle way.
In fact the whole thing strikes me as needlessly ostentatious, really. Why not poison their food, or asphyxiate them in their beds, or push them down a flight of stairs or something, instead of sending a clearly Shadow-associated hitman to kill them in a way which is guaranteed to cause an uproar? Unless the obviousness/uproar is the point, but if so, I can’t quite suss out why that would be so.
I dunno, the whole Gray Man-in-the-Tower thing never really made much sense to me, honestly, but since it never seemed to matter much except to contribute to the general theme of “everyone’s trying to kill Our Heroes ALL THE TIME,” I really never bothered to get that upset about it. And the scene itself was very dramatic and suspenseful, aaaand maybe that shouldn’t count more than the scene actually making sense, but, uh. Two out of three ain’t bad?
[Egwene:] “If the Black Ajah is still here, Nynaeve, and if they even suspect what we’re doing… I hope you didn’t mean what you said about acting as if we are already bound by the Three Oaths. I don’t intend to let them kill me, not if I can stop it by channeling.”
I’m puzzled by this conversation. Why should the Three Oaths interfere with them defending themselves from Black Ajah? The Third Oath specifically allows for using the One Power in defense of oneself against agents of the Shadow, a set of which Black Ajah are most certainly members.
…Oh, or maybe Egwene is talking about killing with the Power, and Nynaeve is advocating less lethal methods. Which, if so, proves that at this stage of things Nynaeve most definitely should still be the boss of them, because wow, Egwene.
And a minor note:
Sheriam put a hand to the man’s chest, and jerked it back twice as fast, hissing. Steeling herself visibly, she touched him again, and maintained the Touch longer. “Dead,” she muttered. “As dead as it is possible to be, and more.”
So this is something I never noticed before, the capitalization of the word “touch” in this passage. Maybe it’s just a typo in my edition and got corrected later, but it’s interesting if it isn’t, because then it’s a Power thing that never got mentioned or explained since—again, as far as I recall.
Or, possibly “Touch” got replaced with “Delving” later, since it seems to be much the same thing.
Chapter 16: Hunters Three
Redux Commentary
One of those fun instances where the (new) icon and the title tell you pretty much exactly what is going to happen in the chapter.
Although it doesn’t tell you about the small high school drama interlude we have before it. I don’t remember if I initially found Gawyn and especially Galad to be as infuriatingly condescending here as I do now, but I would be surprised if I hadn’t, because ugh. Even acknowledging that they were acting under orders from both their monarch and their mother, they still make me want to smack them upside the head for the douchey way they went about it.
I do take back what I said in the original commentary complaining about the lack of indication from Gawyn that he was into Egwene. Given what we will learn (or possibly have already learned, I forget) about Gawyn’s gratitude toward and semi-hero-worship of Galad, it actually makes perfect sense that he would go to considerable lengths to hide how he feels about a girl Galad has shown an interest in. He’s being a good bro, literally, and I feel like I shouldn’t fault him for that.
Especially since I will have so, so many other things to fault him for Real Soon Now. (Ugh.)
“Nynaeve, you wouldn’t—” Gawyn began worriedly, but Galad motioned him to silence and stepped closer to Nynaeve.
Her face kept its stern expression, but she unconsciously smoothed the front of her dress as he smiled down at her. Egwene was not surprised. She did not think she had met a woman outside the Red Ajah who would not be affected by Galad’s smile.
So this bit is hilarious for several reasons, but in part because I keep being startled anytime there is a reference in the story to the fact that Nynaeve is, in fact, quite short. Just as Galad continually gets rendered ugly in my mind because of his (to me) toxic personality, I constantly subconsciously assume Nynaeve’s height matches her personality, when instead she’s about seven feet of attitude in a 5’4” body.
And yes, that is actually her height, at least according to Jordan—most of the time, anyway. As a side note, it’s so perfectly geeky that so many fans have specifically asked how tall the characters are that it was a FAQ. I mentioned this to a non-geek friend once and she was completely puzzled about why this was important to know. Admittedly, my reply (“we need to know for reasons”) was not exactly helpful, but I tend to think this is the kind of thing where, if you have to ask why, you’re not going to really get the answer anyway.
As for Nynaeve’s decision to bring Elayne in, in retrospect it was probably less about being clever and sneaky as it was about deciding not to postpone the inevitable. Because seriously, there was no way Elayne wasn’t going to muscle her way in on this, whether Nynaeve wanted her there or not. She’s not exactly used to taking “no” for an answer, after all. Plus there’s that whole “more courage than sense” aspect, though really none of the Supergirls can throw stones on that account.
Also, Nynaeve has her blind spots and there’s no doubt about that, but she is pretty perceptive in her deduction here that the Amyrlin was considering letting Mat die, even without knowing why Siuan was considering it in the first place (i.e., Mat’s link to the Horn). Granted, it’s probably easier to see ulterior motives in people when you are automatically predisposed to think the worst of them, but that doesn’t change the fact that Nynaeve is quite correct. Nicely done, girl.
And here’s where we stop for the nonce, mes amies! And now I will have king cake, and you will be sad you don’t live in the coolest city ever, but I will make it up to you by returning with more Reread-y goodness next Tuesday! Whoo!
I seem vaguely to recall that we later on learn that the Grey Man was sent by Slayer, at the direction of Be’lal, as a means of luring the SuperGirls into Tear. I might be wrong on the latter part there, but I definitely have a memory that it was Slayer who ordered the Grey Man.
Who stole the crossbow? If it was Slayer, wouldn’t he use a bow instead of a crossbow? And did the Grey Man kill himself or did the person with the crossbow kill him?
Here in Germany several big parades were canceled because of the storm.
neverspeakawordagain @1. I do not think Slayer sent the Grey Man. First, he does not seem like the type who would send others to kill his mark. He would have just done the job himself. I do not recall him ever asking for help. Second, Slayer’s means are similar to the Grey Man. The Grey Man uses stealth. Slayer could have killed like he did in Far Madding when he killed the couple who used Rand’s old room.
Also, do we know if Black Ajah have the means to hire a Gray Man. I do not know if we ever learn if upper level darkfriends have the access to Gray Men. Black Ajah are a group of darkfriends. Sometimes in history the Great Council had more power than other darkfriends higher ups; sometimes they did not. Nevertheless, I find it doubtful that a low level Black Ajah could have had access to the Gray Man. Do we ever learn how high in the Black Ajah organization Sheriam was?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Re Sheriam reveal in TGS – wasn’t her potential darkfriendiness built up in prior books still written by Jordan through the scenes of Sheriam being tormented by Halima aka A’ran’gar as far back as her time at Salidar?
*pokes head in* Just wanted to say that while the connection isn’t ironclad, the analysis someone made before about which Forsaken tended to send which kind of Shadowspawn after the heroes would seem to indicate the Gray Man was sent by Ishamael. (He did, after all, know how important Egwene was by now, and he was aware of the trouble all the Supergirls caused in Falme, plus his plan to send Egwene overseas with the Seanchan got thwarted.) In which case it is likely Lanfear who sent Slayer to kill the Gray Man and save them. Ironic I know, considering her feelings for Lews Therin, but consider: 1) despite knowing of his interest in her, Lanfear doesn’t kill Egwene in TAR; 2) she is quite willing to use all three girls to lure Rand to Tear so he can claim Callandor (and thus help her defeat the Great Lord and the Creator), which obviously can’t happen if they’re dead; 3) we’ve specifically learned of her working against Ishamael before; 4) we know she’s in the Tower in just a few chapters, so she’s got the opportunity (not that this really matters, since thanks to TAR she could be involved even if she wasn’t in the Tower in the real world); and 5) she knows of Slayer, as revealed by the talks she has with Perrin about him in AMoL, and may even have been the one to hire him in the Town to kill Rand.
In any event, the use of a bow and the fact the arrow disappeared are hallmarks to me of Slayer’s MO, since he can step in and out of TAR and take things with him. The second Gray Man could also have been Lanfear, or Slayer, or even Ishamael or Mesaana to frighten Sheriam into compliance/punish her for getting involved and almost giving herself away; I certainly wouldn’t put it past Mesaana to take credit for it even if she didn’t do it, and we see in TGS that she’s quite willing to use terror and threats to discipline and compel obedience from Sheriam.
Funny, I’d always envisioned Nynaeve as 6 feet tall too – such a wonderfully strong person & one of my favorites!
Reading these as a twelve year old and relentlessly devouring my way through them (I got TEOTW as a bday present), I missed a lot of the subtle stuff.
In a later book, Elayne declares that Nynaeve has a keen eye for politics, which I always thought was kind of out of left field, but it’s nice to see an example of that right here.
I wondered whether it was an early move by Rahvin to try and get rid of the Daughter Heir and it sort of got bungled. But I believe the reading in #5 makes more sense. Also, how cool is it that we can still be unsure what happened and why with all of the little machinations in this story. IMO, it’s a sign of how good the “mystery” part of the writing was rather than the writer just trying to move the plot along. Though maybe that happened in a few cases.
*raises an eyebrow at Egwene* You think all Red Sisters are not persuadably attracted to men — specifically Galad — and all other women are?
I never fully understand why Gray Men choose to let the Dark One eat their souls. I can see people serving him in hopes of gaining power, glory, immortality, or freedom to do really naughty things. But getting yourself turned into a living husk in this fashion only confers the ability to assasinate people very effectively, inability to dream, and no chance of reincarnation. Is that so alluring? Maybe during a Shadow-driven apocalypse, where there are many worse fates. But no thanks. If I wanted to commit body-and-soul suicide under such circumstances, I would seek out a Dragkhar. And do Gray Men just wait around somewhere for some Darkfriend/Dreadlord/Chosen to pick one up and send him/her on a mission? #brownajahmusings
Can only ordinary-looking people become Grey Men or does losing your soul change your looks? How do Grey Men differ from victims of Draghkar or Machin Shin?
@@@@@ 9. AeronaGreenjoy
I think the Gray Man phenomenon is like Sheathing the Sword – you want something – forgetfulness, obliteration of your enemies, whathaveyou – so much you sacrifice everything for it.
I think RJ’s being quite sly here – Sheathing the Sword is something everybody expects the Light Side to do, and it’s praised to the skies: when the Dark Side does something similar, everybody condemns it as inhuman.
In terms of what happens to the soul, I don’t know if there’s a difference, since Theoryland has no information on Dragkhar. In terms of what the victim is like, we haven’t seen a Dragkhar’s victim who’s lost their soul but not their life, but it’s probably like the Ogier we saw broken by Machin Shin — truly a mindless living husk, without the drive and ability the Dark One gives Gray Men. Good question about whether a Gray Man’s appearance changes, or if they become magically-forgettable no matter how they look.
Re: Who sent the Gray Man?
In WH Chapter 22, Luc recalls killing a Gray Man in the WT. That’s certainly circumstantial evidence that Slayer was somehow involved with the incident in TDR Chapter 15, but it is not direct evidence that he sent the Gray Man or retrieved the crossbow bolt or killed the Gray Man. I don’t think Slayer orchestrated this job by himself if he was involved. YMMV.
Re: Who is Slayer’s boss?
Luc goes on, in WH, to meet his disguised benefactor-of-the-moment. Luc decides this person is a male Chosen because no one else would dare try to command him (the mistaken murders in Far Madding) and the “man” could wield the OP/TP. Luc may be mistaken in his assumption that the person is male, and that “he” one of the Chosen. The intended murder victims were Rand and Min. There is a page in the original FAQ (1.4.04, by Leigh and John Novak) devoted to speculation on the identity of Luc’s benefactor-of-the-moment. The most likely candidates seem to be Demandred and Taim. Morirdin is rejected because, as Nae’blis, he has no need to disguise himself, and he is already known to be using Slayer’s services. As interesting as this FAQ discussion may be, it’s not clearly relevant to the incident in TDR since Slayer may have had a different benefactor-of-the-moment in TDR. Or not.
neverspeaks… @1
Slayer’s benefactor-of-the-moment could be Bel’al, he is still alive at this point.
Macster @5
And of course Lanfear could also be the culprit.
As for the the Gray Men, I agree with macster @5, it seems likely that Ishy is the one responsible for this and Lanfear is working cross-purposes against him through Slayer. We already know that Lanfear is wandering around the White Tower, sometimes disguised as a novice, to set the Supergirls up and lead them to Tear, so it all fits.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, because my memory is full of holes, but can non-Forsaken/Dreadlord darkfriends ever control any species of shadowspawn directly? Except for Fain, but he’s kinda special…
A few examples of Black sisters or others explicitly commanding shadowspawn?
I’ve been trying to figure that out. The Chosen or Fain personally directing all Shadowspawn attacks seems to be the going assumption during this series, and the ability to Travel (not yet common knowledge again at this point) would make it easier to go to the Blight for them even if most Shadowspawn can’t go through gateways. But during the centuries when Ishy was the only one at large and surely couldn’t be everywhere at once? I dunno. Turning people to the Shadow with 13 channelers and 13 Myrddraal — didn’t this happen in a late book, and who led it? — would seem to require the humans controlling the Myrddraal, but RJ has said that in the Trolloc Wars, Dreadlords had to “negotiate” with their Myrddraal underlings (recorded on Theoryland). A fist of Trollocs is “sometimes, but not always, led by a Myrddraal” (TEOTW glossay), whatever that means. Moiraine blamed the Black Ajah for the warded Dragkhar attacking her in Arafel in TGH, but I don’t know how they would have controlled the creature — a species also used in the Trolloc Wars — and don’t recall if we thought someone else might have been involved.
I have nothing really to add to the Who Sent/Killed the Gray Man debate, but I always loved that Nyneave (and Moirane) are short girls, since I’m pretty short myself.
I believe the Two Rivers womenfolk were all rather short barring a few exceptions. None of which come to mind. I do recall reading somewhere it was a common trait along with their dark eyes and hair. And stubbornness.
Not really adding anything to the Gray Man discussion here, but I do believe the going implication was that only the highest ranks of darkfriends could command such assets as the Gray Men and Slayer. And at this point in time, the highest pretty much mean the Forsaken themselves.
To further address the chapters now: I think I have to agree from the phrasing that Egwene meant she would kill with the Power if she had to, to keep from being restrained again, and the Three Oaths would of course prevent this, and that’s why Nynaeve was so shocked and insistent on her decision. Which…yeah, pretty unsettling, though again we can completely understand why Egwene would feel that way. Still, it’s a good thing she grew out of that murderous mindset.
Considering how they acted with such contempt in all their encounters, I highly doubt Liandrin and her coven ever saw the Supergirls as a threat. Other Blacks may or may not, but if anyone did (and this then explained why they were to be gotten rid of one way or another), it was Alviarin or Mesaana, who were both smart enough to see how girls of such great potential could be dangerous to them and their plans.
I forgot it was a dagger that killed the Gray Man. But even so, I still say it was Slayer who killed him (he’s used daggers too, after all), and it does seem more and more likely it was Lanfear who sent him. But if Mesaana ever learned of what happened from Lanfear, Ishamael, or Slayer himself, I do think she’d have used that knowledge to frighten Sheriam later on. The fact Sheriam didn’t ask who stabbed the Gray Man just shows she knew there were other agents of the Shadow in the Tower, even if she didn’t know about Slayer specifically, something else Mesaana could have used to support her claim.
As for whether Jordan always intended Sheriam to be Black…no way of knowing really, but with his track record I expect he decided fairly early on, hence the oddness of how she reacts during Egwene’s testing and her knowledge of Turning. But you never know, maybe he hadn’t, and that’s why this scene and the reveal in TGS seemed off. *shrugs*
Huh, I never noticed that capitalization before. Well it could have been a typo I suppose, since we saw Verin touch the Ogier at Stedding Tsofu, and that was later revealed to be something not of the Power, just a way of sensing soullessness which anyone familiar with it could do. (Which does indeed suggest something of a link between what Machin Shin does and what Gray Men are.) Then again Sheriam’s touch does seem a lot like Delving, so if the capital was correct, it could have been referring to that.
Ah, the infamous dress-smoothing. Hah! And I have to agree, I always saw Nynaeve as taller than she is too (if not quite so tall as others). Fun fact: her actual height is the same as mine!
As for the Trakand boys, while I do agree the way they try and horn their way in and force the issue is annoying, I can’t really blame them for being upset. Even aside from being worried about Elayne (and Egwene) and how Morgase went on the warpath, if they ever found out about Falme and what happened there, they’d never have let the girls out of their sight again. (And yes I agree, it’s really quite good of Gawyn to back down like that and hide his feelings because of Galad’s interest. How interesting that in doing so, in being a good bro, Gawyn is actually being somewhat like Galad by doing what is right no matter who it hurts–in this case, himself.)
Still, the way Nynaeve gets one over on Galad and gets him to flee, no matter how calmly and gracefully he tries to do it, is still hilarious.
Speaking of funny things, I will never forget Elayne’s indignant response to Siuan’s plan. Just the whole “the lions might be disguised as bushes” bit had me laughing for a good five minutes the first time I read it, and I still snort and chuckle now. Maybe because it reminds me of a certain Monty Python sketch… Anyway, interesting metaphor regardless, considering the whole Lion Throne/Andor connection (as evidenced by the chapter icon!).
As for Nynaeve’s plan, while we do learn shortly that Siuan knew all about it and in fact counted on it for her plausible deniability, I don’t think it’s a stupid plan at all. Not just because indeed, Elayne was going to find out eventually, couldn’t be stopped, and it was better to know she was involved and keep her under close watch and guidance, but because of the idea behind it. Just because the idea of no one (especially Siuan) noticing how close they and Elayne are and that she was involved is rather credulity-straining doesn’t change the fact that the idea itself (a secret ally) is a good one.
I am glad Siuan didn’t let Mat die–not just for the obvious reason, but because of what it would have said about her if she had–but I’m also glad that after letting him be Healed, she took the time not only to look after his welfare (meals and such) but to get to know him better. Obviously this was because of his link to the Horn and to Rand, and being ta’veren himself, but I also think it was because she wanted to know what kind of man the Pattern had chosen, whether she could count on him. Of course she could, as she concluded when she saw how he was like her uncle, but even if she did it because it was expedient and necessary, I like to think that after what she learns about Mat, she’s glad she didn’t let him die too.
@2 birgit: I assume the reason Slayer took the bow and arrow, since he already had one of his own and had killed the Gray Man with a knife, was so that there’d be no evidence left behind of the assassination attempt.
@3 AndrewHB and others: From what we learn later, only those with the mark of the Chosen can command Shadowspawn, or at least Trollocs and Fades. I’m not sure about Draghkar or Gray Men. It’s never confirmed who sent the Draghkar after Moiraine at Tifan’s Well, but even if it was Liandrin, the only other times we’ve seen Draghkar outside of battles and chases was the attack at Cold Rocks Hold where one killed Seana, and we were later told by Lanfear that Asmodean sent it. So even if Liandrin told the Draghkar where to go, I expect it was actually sent (and warded) by Mesaana, who had surely been told by Alviarin of the danger Moiraine posed.
In any event, I don’t think Black Ajah can order Shadowspawn unless they’ve been raised to Chosen or marked in some other way like Alviarin was, or unless a Forsaken ordered the Shadowspawn to go with them and obey. The quote about Dreadlords needing to negotiate seems to clinch that. So the Gray Man had to be sent by Ishamael or Mesaana, and Slayer by Lanfear. Whether the second Gray Man came from one of them, or was sent by Alviarin at Mesaana’s behest, is a different matter.
For what it’s worth though, when she exposes Sheriam in TGS, Egwene says Verin’s book noted her as being very high-ranking.
@9 AeronaGreenjoy, 11 The Lord Drongo: While the idea of those who become Gray Men doing so out of sheer dedication to evil and being willing to sacrifice everything to achieve it does have merit, I think it’s entirely possible that prospective Gray Men are not aware of just what the price for their service to the Shadow will be until it’s too late. Considering Fain and Sheriam’s thoughts on the matter, the Shadow hardly seems forthcoming with details that could scare recruits away.
@10 birgit, 12 AeronaGreenjoy: Since the body of a Gray Man no longer has that ordinariness that makes the eyes slide off of them after it has been killed, I would say it’s probably a feature of losing one’s soul to become one that creates this phenomenon. Though being ordinary-looking to begin with probably helps.
@13 Ways: While Be’lal is still alive at this point, nothing ever said the benefactor of the moment we saw in WH was the same one who had summoned/hired him now in TDR. Also, the Companion doesn’t shed any light on this incident in the Tower, but it does state the one who hired Slayer to kill Rand in Far Madding was indeed Taim.
@16 AeronaGreenjoy: Interesting, I’d forgotten that bit from TEotW glossary. Hmm. You’re right about Ishamael not being able to be everywhere at once, and of course there was that whole forty-year-cycle imprisonment in the Bore. So unless he temporarily elevated Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars (or gave them marks like the Chosen’s without the title), it must have been the negotiation you mentioned. And during times he was imprisoned or elsewhere, there just must not have been any Shadowspawn around.
(The Turning was led by Taim–who by that point was a Chosen–and Hessalam. And as I said above, the Draghkar sent after Moiraine has usually been blamed on Liandrin, or Verin before we found out her true allegiance, but I suspect it was Mesaana.)
re Sheriam = black, I think the point RJ was trying to make is, as in all things, there are gradations of investment in a cause. Sheriam may have been a little “gray” herself in terms of her commitment to the Black, and as evidenced by her punishment later in the series, she probably would have quit had she been able to. If it is retconning, then I think it was masterfully done. I didn’t feel anything squishy about her reveal, in fact, I thought Egwene’s outing of her in front of the Hall was magnificent. But I have to think that Sheriam must have known about the Gray Man, otherwise she wouldn’t have been so quick on the draw to remove its evidence. She certainly didn’t seem surprised or visually rattled by its appearance. I’m not convinced, however, that she was the one who sent it.
OK the height info was just completely rad, I didn’t know that existed.