Greetings, my peoples! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread Redux!
Today’s Redux post will cover the (official) Prologue of The Eye of the World, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time reread is also now available as an ebook series, except for the portion covering A Memory of Light, which should become available soon.
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Prologue: Dragonmount
Redux Commentary
Okay, first of all I have to just laugh and laugh at the entire original post, because OH MY GOD I COVERED NINE CHAPTERS IN ONE POST, THAT IS INSANE. The summaries are so wee! And so are the commentaries! Aw!
…Wow, I am totally cooing over my baby blogger pictures. So to speak. That’s weird, I think. Is that weird?
Well, whatever, it’s not like I ever claimed to be normal.
But yeah, I was definitely restraining myself in these early posts, knowing the amount of material that, at the time, I thought I only had nine months to get through. I am duly impressed at my lack of verbosity, but don’t worry, the intervening years have completely cured that tendency.
Anyway, the Prologue! My original comment on it, which was that this Prologue was one of the only “true” Prologues in the series, still holds (though you can make a case that the Prologue of TGH also counts). I suppose that is only fitting, though, since this is really a prologue to the entire series, as opposed to being a prologue for one particular book.
Which also makes it fitting that it was, again, the only time we “see” the Age of Legends in the series proper directly, as opposed to in magical flashback (as in Rand’s trip through the Wayback Ter’Angreal in TSR) or in historical accounts (as in “The Strike at Shayol Ghul” or various “history” snippets or, I suppose, whenever the Forsaken or, later, Rand happened to talk about what had happened there).
I also note that the two “historical” passages that end the Prologue here were used again in A Memory of Light:
And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.
—from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age
And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
—from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age
The first, which emphasizes the destruction and bad things and general apocalypticness the Dragon had brought (and/or would bring) is at the beginning of AMOL, and the second, which presented (at the time of TEOTW) a completely contradictory picture of his role as the savior of the world, is at the end. When I first read them in AMOL I think I was slightly annoyed that we were getting recycled “historical” passages instead of new ones, but I don’t think at the time that I remembered where they were originally placed. But now, seeing that they were actually the first two such passages we ever read in the series, I see why they were used that way, and I like it much better. Circling back around to the beginning, like everything else. Nice.
And the dichotomy between the two still applied, as well, since at the beginning of AMOL we technically still didn’t know whether Rand was going to destroy the world or save it (though realistically we totally did know, but anyway), and then at the end, obviously, we did. So AMOL was finally placing them in their proper context in terms of what part of the story they were talking about. I appreciate that now.
I also made a comment in the original post about liking Jordan’s penchant for “writing prose that should sound purple and overwrought, but doesn’t,” which is rather interesting in retrospect, because several years after that post I had a conversation with someone, who happens to be a respected SF writer, who told me that he never got into WOT precisely because of the “purpleness” of the Prologue’s prose, which put him off.
Rereading the Prologue now, I have to admit that the prose is, indeed, very purple, possibly excessively so, but I do think it is a shame that the writer in question evidently never read beyond that point, so as to see how the tone of the writing changed and, er, depurpled, so to speak, once it moved into the main narrative of the “present” day. To see that, in other words, the florid style of the Prologue was a deliberate choice on Jordan’s part, to differentiate it from the rest of the story in narrative style as well as in timeframe, and not an indication of the way the entire series would progress.
Because admittedly, I would probably not care to read an entire multi-book series in that style either, at least not these days. Tolkien could get away with it because he was fuckin’ Tolkien, okay, but very few others can do it and hold my attention anymore, especially as my love for language play and slang and colloquialisms has grown over the years. Thom Merrilin may decry the decline of High Chant ballads, and he probably has a point, but for my money, a good old-fashioned hootenanny in Common Tongue is much more likely to be my speed.
Still, that said, I think that the high-falutin’-ness of the language in the Prologue worked very well to convey the sense of history and weightiness that Jordan was attempting to evoke there, and I would not have changed it even if that would have been possible. Which, obviously, it is not.
As to the actual content of the Prologue, it’s sort of weird how little I find I have to say about it, because at this point I have so internalized the story of Lews Therin Telamon and what he did that I can’t even really summon a visceral response to it anymore. Even though I know that on first reading I must have had one, especially to the revelation that Lews Therin had unknowingly slaughtered his entire family. But by now it’s sort of like seeing Bruce Wayne’s parents get murdered; it’s objectively horrible, but by now the story is so well-known, to me anyway, that it’s hard to generate an emotion stronger than a solemn acknowledgment of its horribleness. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but I suspect it probably just makes me a human one. Perhaps I will have more to say about it later.
Lastly, I made a comment in the original post about how we never found out what “the Nine Rods of Dominion” that Ishamael makes reference to here were, and was swiftly corrected in the comments that Jordan later made statements to the effect that they were not in fact objects, but instead offices, i.e. people, probably high-ranking governors of some kind. So it was never clarified in the canon, but was by the author in outside commentary, which indicates it was just a minor world-building thing and never anything of particular importance beyond that. Though I do also think (and other people have speculated, I believe) that it was an oblique reference to the Nine Rings in Tolkien’s LOTR books, one of many such references/homages that TEOTW made to that worthy progenitor of the epic fantasy genre.
But we will get to that more in due time, as we move on to the main narrative of the series.
Which will be next time, Gadget, next time! I don’t think I will always be moving this slow with the Redux Reread, but things are still fairly unsettled on the Auntie Leigh homefront, so we will be stopping here for now. As a side note on that topic, I wish to extend my thanks and appreciation to everyone on Tor.com and elsewhere who offered me condolences and support on my recent loss, because y’all are the best and I will fight anyone who says different. Cheers, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
After reading Rand on Dragonmount in TGS, I came back and read this prologue, and that scene together. I found it to be
very powerful and real.
Glad to have you back Leigh. Good luck with the home front.
I have to agree with your comment about LTT family being like Batman’s parents. We’ve known it so long, it’s a dull oh pain.
I really should quiz my first time reader friend on her reactions more. Try to help remember mine.
Whoot! Squees of joy…
Thanks Leigh, I’ve been looking forward to this.
Well, shouldn’t prophecy and myth be written in such a way? Or do I think that just because it is in our own world?
I adore the prologue and always have, but then I play fantasy games and worlds and I partially live in those fantasies through reading and gaming, and thus, it’s all cool with me.
Welcome back Leigh. Again sorry about your grandfather. Sometimes expected losses are harder as enduring the suffering is horrible.
Thank you for clearing up the Nine Rods as I did not remember the answer.
More interesting is Ishmael is loose right after the sealing and that he was able to cure madness. My biggest question is why?
DennisLane
Yay! The post! And it’s The Prologue, another yay for that!
So… this is going to look a bit like „How I met WoT” story, but don’t worry, I’m just making some point here:
About dozen years ago my teenage self wandered through local library (SF-F department) after finishing some fantasy saga (LOTR? The Witcher?) feeling depressed that it is over. I wanted to know more about those characters, who became almost sort of friends to me, more stories, more stuff! I don’t want to feel like this again – ever!, I told myslef. I need story so long… well, as long as it gets. I randomly opened few books (those who looked promisingly big) None looked good enough. I hesitated: Yeah, but even if it is long, it will end anyway. Maybe it’s not such a good idea. Then I pulled out of the shelf WoT. Opened. Started to read. And just after the prologue I knew it is The One. (I may have actually like the purpleness of it.)
– My point being, of course: the prologue is Absolutely Awesome.
(Not that anyone here doubts that, I think.)
Had it been „The ravens” prologue instead of Dragonmount… (shivers).
Anyway I think this prologue does basically the same job as the poem about rings at the beginning of LOTR. It adds depth. Like an „this is just another fictional world – but look, it has history thousands of years old, and myths and legends and stuff, look, look…” and you’re hooked.
I still love this prologue so much though. I love your Bruce Wayne comparison, ha. That is definitely true. I still remember how confused (in a good way) I was when I first read this on the bus home after my teacher lending it to me. But now it’s just second nature!
I never even caught the recycling of the quotes – I knew that I recognized the AMOL quotes, but I didn’t realize they had been used in EOTW and I agree, that’s very cool and wheely.
As noted, this prologue bored me so much that I left off there and returned 2 years later.To each their own.
The part which has stuck with me most strongly (besides LTT realizing he’d murdered his wife and children) was his muscles feeling like “jellyfish,” which are referred to as “wasp jellies” in the rest of the story. Time changes terminology.
…I’m obsessed with marine invertebrates, ok?
What’s the “Voice” hat LTT asked Ishamael if he had? I couldn’t find any information on it.
I don’t believe that, after reading the prologue somewhere in an airport in 95, I had actually caught that the epigraphs were prophecy and not “historical.” I mean, yes, end of the Third Age, quotes are from the Fourth Age … nope, pretty sure I didn’t catch it. I’m terrible about skipping epigraphs to being with, so that might have been it.
And while I have no visceral reaction to the LTT story any longer (the death of the Waynes was a perfect analogy) I DO have a visceral reaction to the beginning of Chapter 1, where we will have our first encounter with a very familiar wind. That still chokes me up.
I think the Prologue was enough to pull me in at 18 when I started reading, but I wonder if it would now? I was coming to RJ from the likes of David Eddings and Terry Brooks, so I was conditioned to expect it. The wordsmithing he showed he was capable of later on cemented it for me as I grew older and more well-read in the genre. Perhaps it’s a bit like kids who grew up with Harry Potter, where the books grew up with them? That’s sort of how I feel here.
As an audible subscriber, I first started listening to WOT once I had listened to all the current ASOIAF books. At that point, I didn’t know the series had literally just concluded after 20 years. Anyway, I was nervous as I listened to the prologue and had to keep rewinding. I had heard some of the criticisms of RJ and his “descriptive” writing style, but thankfully I kept listening and chapter 1 hooked me.
Since it has only been a year and a half since I read all the books back to back, I didn’t have so much of a visceral reaction to the prologue other than confusion as to what was going on in the story, especially when the story then skipped to its version of modern day. I went back and read the prologue again thinking I must have missed something then kept on reading figuring I would understand the point of the prologue later.
There were instances where I would go back and ReRead a chapter I had just read to make sure I understood the point. If I knew then there was online help in understanding the world building, I would have been all over it. Sadly, I was clueless.
I’m now rereading the books to be able to follow the ReRead Redux, so with the commentary and ensuing comments, TWoT world should be much sharper for me. Am truly looking forward to the Redux blogs.
I’ll have to look up what purple, overwrought prose even means, since I have no idea.
When mentioning Rand going through the way-back Ter’Angreal, one gripe I had with the later-added YA prologue was Tam’ s story mentioning the air travel. In the way-back machine Rand was quite surprised by the revelation of air travel. If he had heard the information from the story already from his father, wouldn’t it had been less of a surprise? I suppose he could have been surprised at verification that the story of air travel was true, but I felt that YA-added prologue spoiled the later revelation for those readers. Thankfully, the books I purchased from Amazon only contained the original prologue.
One possible meta-explanation of the intentionally purple “prose” (and I’m not sure “prose” is even the right word when it’s “fictive translation of an epic in a fictive language that may have been metrical”): I think that, in the light of AMoL, we need to seriously consider to what extent we, the readers, may be reading content influenced by The History of The Dragon by Loial, or by The Epic of the Dragon. . .possibly by Thom Merrilin? Is our view completely transparent, or has it been colored by one or both of those fictive documents?
P.S. One night when I was really, really insomniac I started translating the Prologue into Latin, which has very different style norms than English. And. . .it sounded a lot better in Latin. But then the actual body text was impossible to translate well. (I’d rather not admit how long this particular project took after the sleepless night that originated it.) Interesting confirmation. . .
I would just like to say this is extremely awesome of you Leigh. I’m looking forward continuing with the WoT in this fashion.
*Ahem… Would you just look at the number there….
YES!!!! Original prologue!
Like some others, I came across WOT when I was experiencing a SF/F drought, and was looking for something new (and hopefully long). I had recently read BWS’ Mistborn trilogy and loved it, and this was about half a year before he was announced as continuing the WOT, yet by fortuitous circumstances I randomly tried TEOTW at my local bookstore . One prologue later, I was hooked. And of course, thrilled when I had finished the published books and soon after it was announced that none other than BWS would be continuing the series (even if I don’t love the end of the series as much as the beginning, I still think he was a perfect choice, but we’ll get to that when it comes…)
I always thought the nine Rods of dominion were some sort of super-powerful artifacts, likely angreal of some sort, until I learned of RJ’s report that they were people. I was actually a little disappointed, oh well.
BTW Leigh, are you going to discuss the covers on the last post of each book, like you did in the original reread? Cause I have issues with pretty much all of them, including this one, but I’ll wait to discuss that when appropriate.
I’m not sure at what point in the series I realized that Ishamael had appeared way back in the prologue, even though the forsaken were all supposedly imprisoned up till the start of the series. I wish I could remember when I figured it out, but it’s been a while (and a lot of books) since then.
Anyway, I’m stoked that we’re back on familiar ground. Thanks, Leigh, and again condolences to you and your family on your loss.
@11 WDWParksGal: Purple – never heard it anywhere else, but I sort of know exactly, what it means (which is weird, when I think about it). But I would like to know some definition, too (in my dictionary is only this: “a colour that is between red and blue”).
Air travel – I imagine it is something slightly different, hearing stories and seeing something from the stories. The story may have been just a fairy-tale to Rand. We’ve all heard about witches and flying broomsticks (or read Harry Potter), but if one flew around me on the street some day, “quite surprised” wouldn’t be exactly my reaction…
Purple prose – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_prose
Minor quibble: we don’t really see the Age of Legends here. The Prologue scene takes place after the War of the Shadow (which ended the AoL) is over and the Breaking has begun.
@5: Without checking any sources, my guess is that Ishamael cured Lews Therin’s madness out of sadism.
@17, @5:
Yeah, “Why” wasn’t my biggest question. That seemed inherent, Ishmael wanted Lews Therin to be able to know that he wasn’t trapped in the Bore witht he others, that he hadn’t won. Ishmael came to Lews Therin to gloat, and healed him in order to make sure LEws Therin could comprehend the fact.
My bigger question, in light of everything else that happened in the series, was “How?”
How did Ishmael know how to heal madness when Semirhage didn’t?
Thanks Leigh,
I had no idea what “purple prose” was until this post (I wasn’t an English major and don’t recall covering that in the few English courses I took), so thanks for adding to my basic knowledge yet again.
As for the prologue, yeah not a lot new to say about it. I don’t recall if the original post’s comments discussed Ishamael’s comments about LTT’s acceptance of his title:
I don’t think we ever found out more about why/not LTT didn’t appreciate the title, or what specifically the title meant, although some of the commenters touched upon that topic in the last post.
We could discuss LTT’s ability to sense that “there were no people within a hundred leagues,” before he creates Dragonmount, but I seem to recall that has been brought up in previous discussions as well. Oh well.
Like I said, not much new to add.
MGP@5 – Yeah, sadism and he also wanted LTT to be aware and cognizant when he (Ishamael) came for his revenge. Noteworthy that he tries to turn LTT to the Dark even then.
(And I see that Anthonpero@18 answered while I typed this)
@12 mutantalbinocrocodile: Latin? (you too? :) I tried just the first paragraph of chapter 1, (the wind…) and gave up though, realizing I’m actually really bad in latin.) I admire that and can well imagine it sounded better in latin.
@14 MDNY: I still think that the Rods were called Rods, because there were some actuall rods involved (maybe some ter-angreals?) and each of those people had one.
Glad you are back, Leigh! We will distract you with all manner of insanity.
Purple. Yes, I like The Color Purple. One of my favorites. Wait a minute. Wasn’t that a seminal 1980s movie? Well, that’s another story altogether.
Having nothing else (good) to read at the moment, I have read ahead in TEotW– up to the point where our intrepid heroes are departing Taren Ferry. And I don’t remember what I wanted to say about this prologue. But the next few chapters…how did I miss so much in my previous 4 or so reads?
The Nine Rods of Dominion bring to mind Vora’s sa’angreal. Can’t imagine there being 9 of them though.
I always got the impression that one of the Nine Rods of Dominion eventaully became the Aes Sedai oath rod. When RJ said (in an online interview) that the rods were people (or, at least, titles for people in a certain position), my retcon alarm went off. Maybe the upcoming WoT Encyclopedia (WoT Companion) will clarify.
For what it’s worth, the Prologue absolutely hooked me right away. The sense of a lost era coupled with the tragedy of LTT and the mystery of “just what the hell is going on here?”
@18 anthonypero – Ishamael was clearly using the True Power to heal Lews Therin. There’s a dark halo, agonizing pain, and he does say “Shai’tan’s healing.” I always thought that healing the Taint madness was only possible with the Dark One’s power as Ishamael implies here. More interestingly he says that the Sisters could have given LTT “a few lucid minutes” which is more than we ever see a latter-day Aes Sedai being able to do, until Nynaeve. And that the TP healing would “serve as well, for my purposes” implying it’s not a full or permanent healing. We never see Semirhage, to my memory, discuss using the TP for healing so she may not have known this was possible. Also, there was no taint madness to heal before she was trapped in the Bore.
I love some of the foreshadowing we get in the prologue. I remember when we got to the reality warping effects of the dark one later on, and the stone turning soft thing (book … 11?) really jarred my sense of “what, where did this come from?” I didn’t feel it had been foreshadowed or set up at all and it felt gimicky. Then on a reread in the very first paragraph of the prologue it mentions people sinking into stone turned soft. Crazy long foreshadowing; i love what you can pick up on a reread.
@23 You are correct that Semirhage was trapped in the bore before the Taint on Saidin appeared (or at the same time, really), but I believe it was actually Graendel who was most skilled at dealing with diseases of the mind, even if Semirhage was the most skilled overall healer. Not that it matters, as they’re both trapped.
I still remember my first time reading Dragonmount. My friend in high school was telling me that he was reading this series of books that was better than Lord of the Rings. Being a minor Lord of the Rings nerd, I was somewhat sceptical, so he handed me the prologue, which by this point had fallen out of his often-read and dog-eared copy of Eye of the World. A short time later, I was back at his door asking for the rest of the book, and I’ve been hooked ever since. (For time reference, Knife of Dreams had just been published shortly before I had finished reading Crossroads of Twilight.)
Jason @22
It’s nice to see you jump in with a comment. Keep it up! I vaguely recall thinking/discussing along the same line way back when. The WT oath rod has the number 111 inscribed, while the one Sammael gave Sevanna is numbered 3. Is that relevant? Hopefully, as you wrote, the WoT Companion will clarify.
@11, let’s just pretend like the YA prologue never happend. It’s wrong, wrong, WRONG.
I wish I could remember what I thought of the prologue the first time I read it 20+ years ago. I must have liked it though, because I definitely remember thinking most of the rest of book 1 was a cheap Tolkien knock-off (I got better).
There’s nothing inherently wrong with purple prose, it’s just out of fashion.
Once we found out that the Oath Rods were originally tools used to bind channeler criminals, it hardly made sense to think they were the same thing as the Nine Rods of Dominion. Can’t quite see it as a retcon.
Re: purple prose – this is so much “eye of the beholder” schtick that it’s almost meaningless; see above comments! Depending on what you’re used to reading, very different things may strike you as “extravagent, ornate, or flowery” – much less have the capacity to “break the flow and draw excessive attention to itself.” In the hands of a reasonably skilled wordsmith, “ornate” prose can evoke a certain perception of the setting, meaning, situation, or purpose that simply can’t be achieved as well in any other way.
I find myself very irritated when someone castigates a work by sneering at its “purple prose” when it’s totally a matter of taste and the author’s choice of style. If you don’t like that style, fine – that doesn’t make it bad, it just means that you don’t like it. There are plenty of authors I choose not to read due to their stylistic choices: Neal Stephenson, Kim Stanley Robinson, Margaret Atwood, GRRM… It’s not that they’re terrible writers, I just don’t enjoy their style. My husband doesn’t enjoy Robert Jordan or Patrick Rothfuss for the same reason. Go figure. Calling the prologue “purple” is, IMO, meaningless. The language is more formal than we usually use, and perhaps more overtly descriptive. Not sure why that justifies use of an adjective which carries generally negative connotations.
In this case, I think RJ used the contrast of two different styles very effectively to transition from Grand Epic Historical Happenings to boy-next-door, normal life. The fact that the events of the first chapter aren’t all exactly “normal” is made more deliberately chilling by that exact contrast: Grand Epic Historical Happenings are supposed to be a long time ago, and normal people don’t have to live with them, right?
woohoo I’ve been reading the series for the second time and reading through the reread (on Crossroads of Twilight now, someone shoot me!) and now I get to follow along live with the reread redux!
AeronaGreenjoy @8. I think that the “Voice” that LTT mentions is the talent of Signing to grow chora trees.
I wonder when Ishamael became mad. When we see him in the series proper, he is quite mad. Yet in this scene he does not appear mad. I suppose that it was the never ending cycle of being free for about 40 years, then being re-bound in the Pit of Doom for x number of years before becoming free.
IIRC, the other Foresaken were in a suspended state. They could not even access Tel’aran’rhiod. During his bound cycles, could Ishamael access the World of Dreams?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
@15 Tessuna ~ I found http://fiction-writers-mentor.com/purple-prose.html that explains purple prose. Personally, I didn’t find the prologue purple in any way, but that is just me.
Your example is perfect to explain Rand’s reaction to the air travel verification. I adore “Harry Potter” and have read all the books many times and have seen the movies literally hundreds of times, but you’re right; if I saw someone actually riding a broom I would be beyond “surprised”, since I’d probably faint on the spot.
@16 anthonypero ~ thanks for the link… it still left me a bit confused about the purple prose, since I didn’t find the prologue to be “purple”. I feel a bit stupid not knowing this considering I was an English and Literature major and do some writing myself.
My daughter is an Ancient Greek and Latin Scholar, so she would just love to hear that there are students of Latin translating the prologue into Latin!
I am with those above who didn’t think the prologue was Purple prose. But then, I read the scriptures A LOT, and I don’t think there is much more out there more purple, so I guess I was used to it. In any case, the prologue totally reeled me in. (Yes, I fish a lot too) And I don’t think I would be here today on this forum, or for that matter would have even read the series if the YA version had been the first I read. But then, I am not YA but an old man. How old? well the passing of Leigh’s grandfather sent me to thinking about my own granfathers. Both of them died in a seven month span between December 1931 and July of 1932. It floored me when I realized that is 82 years ago. So I am not in the same generation with some of those of you who still have grandparents living today more than three quarters of a century later.
On the subject of the nine rods of dominion: I also thought of these as objects – perhaps angreal or such. But to me, the explaination by RJ is very much more impressive. Think of each of the “Rods of Dominion” as being a very powerful leader such as the “Amyrlin Seat”. Being able to summon nine such leaders is more impressive to me than being able to summon nine things, even powerful things.
The Prologue was what hooked me, or at least me high-school self, decades ago. The two quotes, and then the confrontation between Lew Therin blew me away. Its so brief, really, but it feels like it has so much weight behind it – it sets up everything that comes.
I wrote a comment (editorial?) comparing/contrasting the two prologues and why I find them both- eh- to have their place (see comment #118 @@@@@ the “From the Two Rivers” prologue re-read if you care to glance at it. Btw; thanks for the comment Ways).
I don’t intend to recap that all here but, I do believe that taken together in context they inform the building emotional shocks of subseqent events in the entire series. Especially if you have some identification with an “idylic” youth and the change in worldview that comes with the realization the world is not such a safe place after all. How and where do you fit in this new paradigm? Do you run away? Stick your head in the sand? Pretend nothing has changed? Change allegiances? Fight the looming DARK? I believe RJ was asking all of this and more.
Thx2593
I’m so looking forward to this reread, Leigh! Nice to have you back, and I hope your family has found some peace amongst the loss.
A few years ago, Samadai suggested rereading the prologue for some discussion we were having, and yup, I was hooked again. I ended up rereading it all, again. I love the prologue, and it becomes iconic when placed in context of the whole story.
RJ did a masterful job of separating the prologue from the Story
that begins in chapter one. Purple? No. The way it’s written places it as “historical”.
The Nine Rods are obviously
Rod Stewart
Rodney Hampton
Rod McKuen
Rod Carew
Rodney Dangerfield
Rodney King
Rod Blagojevich
Rodney MacDonald
and Admiral Rodney!
When RJ said the Rods of Dominion were governors of parts of the world I thought the name came from some kind of sceptre or fasces that was a symbol of the office.
In relation to the Nine Rods of Dominion, perhaps one could consider the Westminster system of goverment as practised in the former Dominions such as Canada, Nova Scotia, Australia, New Zealand. The sceptre represents Her Absent Majesty, and Parliament isn’t in session, patitions cannot be heard, not laws passed until the sceptre has been placed in the debating chamber of the House of Parliament.
Referring to someone as the Rod of Dominion is no more a stretch than referring to an institution as a Parliament – originally it was a verbal adjective meaning “talking”, so House of Parliament is mangled Anglo-Norman for “house of talking”, ie, speeches, petitions, judgements, bloviating, etc, …. Usage irons out the absurdities of speech.
As to the actual content of the Prologue, it’s sort of weird how little I find I have to say about it, because at this point I have so internalized the story of Lews Therin Telamon and what he did that I can’t even really summon a visceral response to it anymore.
Ditto. That’s why I haven’t said anything before this. I did have the thought that, in retrospect, really hard to believe that LTT had enough raw power, even if fully unchained, to create Dragonmount. Do we really think Rand could have gone to the Fields of Merrillor, let loose his power in a death move and created Dragonmount II Electric Boogaloo? My BS detector is beeping quietly.
@40 RobM Yes, I believe he could have. Remember what Aemon’s wife did in her suicide bombing of the forces of dark, and what Egwene did also when fully unchained. Equally as impressive as creating a mountain.
re: purple prologue
I loooooooooooooooooooooove the prologue. It’s epic like a really epic thing. I agree that it’s way too purple for an entire book, let alone a series, but it is just the right shade of purple for this prologue. It’s perfect.
And Mr. respected SF writer guy? If you didn’t even read past the prologue, if you can’t even be bothered to read a handful of chapters, I’m sorry but I’ll have to revoke your SF writer guy license. Please hand it in now. Don’t make a fuss!
@birgit
re: Nine Rods of Dominion
Indeed, RJ said in his blog that the Nine Rods of Dominion were regional governors named so because of their symbol of office.
http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/4/entry-332-this-and-that/
re: the historical passages
I noticed and remembered those as quotes from the very beginning of the series. And I loooooooooooooved (to coin a recently popular Randalator phrase) them being used as bookends for the series. So beautiful, so appropriate…
@41 Alphaleonis
Agreed, there are multiple instances showing what kind of destruction a channeler of Rand’s/LTT’s magnitude can unleash.
And Egwene didn’t even go fully nuclear. She burned herself out and put all she got into the Flame of Tar Valon. But imagine what would have happened if she’d gone Self-destruct-O-matic.
Boom, is all I’m saying.
RE: Purple Prose. Wetlander nailed it, but it is easily Googled. Wikipedia says it is “prose that is so extravagant, ornate, or flowery as to break the flow and draw excessive attention to itself.”
Glad to be back in WOT Land. On another matter entirely: I’ve actually made it past the “activation energy” barrier on the ASOIAF series, but have not caught up with Leigh’s “Read” yet, so have not posted any comments. I’m gaining however. The parallels between RJ and GRRM are fascinating, as are the significant differences. The writing style and “tone” are, obviously, VERY different, but the mythological/symbolic references often are strikingly similar: (dragons vs the Dragon, swordsmen losing sword-hands, feminist themes, returning from death, and much, much more).
@37 Like
Though I think Rowdy Roddy Piper should be substituted for one of them (maybe Rodney Macdonald?)
@37 – what about Elayne’s proverbial hot rod ter’angreal? I’d say that’s really a rod of dominion.
Oh cool this is a thing again. I only caught up to the last one midway through AMOL so it’ll be fun to actually be here from the start. Also nice to have something Wheel of Timeish to keep me occupied while the encyclopedia takes a proper Jordanesque amount of time to complete.
I wish could remember what my first thoughts were for the prologue but I’m thankful that it hooked me. Should probably thank my mum again for getting it for me for my birthday all those years ago.
Awesome. Just finished the series and saw this pop back up from Tor. Figured I’d read along while reading other books as well (currently reading The Stand) just so that I can catch things I missed during my first read through. Excited!
I vaguely remember just being annoyed at the tantalizing tidbits offered but not resolved by the prologue story.
I must not have been too put off though, because I continued into the story proper and didn’t quit, even though I was temporarily blinded by the Tolkien knock-off impressions.
Note: Like Alphaleonis, my familiariy with the KJV probably made the epigraphs sound comfortably familiar even as I recognized they were not direct quotes. I think I was impressed by RJs ability to capture the weight of scripture.
Wetlandernw@29
Completely agree. I think the term “purple prose” gets thrown around far to much to really be taken seriously these days. A generation ago, amidst a veritable sea of Tolkien wanabes, the term had a bit more meaning. Don’t get me wrong, there are ways to do overly florid, wordy passages badly (see: said Tolkien wannabes) but there are ways to do any writing style badly and as for me, the prologue drew me into the story and, combined with the contrasting change in tone with the opening chapters, wouldn’t let go.
P.S. Leigh, you can try, but you won’t get me next time!
gadget @49 – “. . . there are ways to do overly florid, wordy passages badly (see: said Tolkien wannabes) but there are ways to do any writing style badly. . .” Exactly! There is stylistic choice, and then there’s wordsmithing quality. They aren’t the same thing.
@33-this isn’t related to the post, just wondering how old your Grandparents were when they passed, and if they experienced the Civil War in any way, evenif it was as children. It’s amazing to think how close we are generationally linked to that era when it seems so long ago in both years and especially technologically. I wonder how long it would take the fourth age to catch up?
@51 I like to tease about how old I am. It gives me an excuse for my senility. But I’m really not that old. Both of my grandfathers died young. The first was only 50 (so born well after the Civil War in 1882)and died of the flu. The second died in an industrial accident at the age of 33. So he was born in 1899. And I never knew them, which in a way is as sad as losing someone you know. Wish I had known them. One was a Baptist minister and the other worked in the oil fields. Women live longer. I did know a great, great aunt who helped raise my grandmother. She prabably was born about 1870.
I really enjoy this discussion on many shades of purple :)
@29 Wetlandernw, you said it so nicely.
Now when I understand the term, I must say it is exactly the thing I love about literature. I even like books which are as purple as it gets (the more the better), even those considered unreadable by most people for that exact reason. Finally, there is just one word to express it! (can’t think about czech equivalent. If there was one, so many texts on literature of late 19/early 20 century would be much shorter).
@45 RobMrobM: Like. I don’t remember, if we ever found out exactly, what the hot rod does. Otherwise my imagination would draw me a picture of the 9 Dominion rods that would probably make me ROFL.
@45 RobM²
That’s not a Rod of Dominion, that’s a Rod of Do-Naughty. *ba-dum thsk*
Thank you, thank you. I’ll be here all week. Try the fish and please tip the waitress!
@53 Tessuna
We do, kinda. In WH, when Elayne gets it on with Rand and the shared Warder bond has unintentional consequences for the ladies, Aviendha tells Birgitte to take Elayne’s *activities* (and their proxy participation) as a joke. Birgitte then makes an oblique joke about intending to “get drunk enough to take off her clothes and dance on the table” which Aviendha finds hilarious.
Leigh, do you know that you’re stolen my time? When you’ve started the Wheel of Time re-read, I don’t have read your posts. I’m italian (and I’m sorry for my poor english), so I had read the series only to Winter’s Heart, the last novel translated. I don’t wanted spoilers so I didn’t read your posts. My time was mine.
Some time after you started the read of Ice and Fire. I’d read before of you all Martin’s novels, so you can’t spoil me anything. I’ve started reading your posts, and I enjoyed the reading. You’re funny and introspective at the same time.
At the time of The Gathering Storm I started to read the english novels and not the italian translations. You can’t yet spoil me, so I started to read your Wheel of Times’ re-read. Meanwhile I’m reading new books, I’ve reread (by me, not because of you), A Song of Ice and Fire and I’ve started the re-read of all Guy Gavriel Kay’s novels.
Now, obviously, I’ve started to read your reread redux. And your words made me started my World of Time re-read in order to stay with you, even if before I’ve thinked to re-read Jordan only after my re-read of Kay’s books was completed. I can’t spend all my time reading.
You’ve stolen my time, but your posts (and the books you talked about) are very great!
Re: Purple Prose
Also – 29. Wetlandernw33. Alphaleonis48. s’rEDIT
I also don’t think ‘purple’ is the correct adjective. ‘Biblical’ is much better – the second prophecy in particular, both in is style and is theme, evokes certain passages in Exodus 1-2 which help set the scene for the story of Moses.
45. RobMRobM
Oh dear oh dear oh dear :)
OMG Tessuna, I can’t find the document!!! I have a zillion unimportant things on this computer but not one backup of that??? I’ll find it eventually. Don’t feel bad that you couldn’t manage it, because sorry to disappoint you, WDWParksGal, but I’m not a student. . .I was a teacher at the time with at least a decade of experience in the language. Composition is hard at any time, and that is some hard Latin in there.
Argh I can’t believe I can’t find it! I’d never post the whole thing because that’s probably a copyright violation, but I wanted to put up a sentence or two. . . . Somewhere I must have a CD backup or something sensible like that.
mutantalbinocrocodile, that’s ok, I know that feeling very well (just spent an afternoon looking for some old document, found all possible things except that which I was looking for…)
I didn’t want to originally, but here it is. I scribbled it on the edge of notebook in my second year of studying latin and I know it’s probably full of terrible mistakes, so… just for the fun:
Rota Temporis rotat et aeva adveniant abeuntque, recordationes quae legendis fient relinquerentis. Legenda in famam evanescent, atque fama tantisper oblivione deleta est dum aevum, quae eam ortuus erat, iterum advenit. In aevum, aliquis Tertius dicitur, aevum adveniens, aevum diu abiens, ventus ex Montes Nebularum oriebatur. Ille ventus nullius rei principium fuit. Rotae temporis rotando neque principiis neque extremis sunt. Sed aliqui principium erat.
AeronaGreenjoy @8″The Voice” is related to the song the Tinkers have been looking for. It is related to making things grow with the help of the Ogiers and the Nym.
anthonypero @18
It’s telling that Ishamael used the True Power to heal LTT. Which basically means the Dark One gave him the Power to do so.
JasonDenzel @22
I don’t see the connection between the Oath Rod which is later revealed to be a tool of punishment, and a “Rod of Dominion” which refers to a position of high authority, whether referring to the person itself or the symbol of his office.
fernandan @23
We must also bear in mind that with the Taint still at full strength, any Healing whether provided by Ishamael or the Aes Sedai themselves(not even considering whether they actually can) is temporary at best. Given LTT’s strength it won’t take long for the Taint to turn him mad once more. Also, this does not necessarily mean the Aes Sedai can actually heal Taint madness, just that Ishamael thinks they should be able to and this is later supported with Rand, finally in control of all of LTT’s memories, being able to puzzle out the principle behind the cure even when he admits he lacks the actual skill to manage it.
RobMRobM @40
Bear in mind this LTT has basically been running around batshit insane since the Strike at Shayol Ghul. Where a small army of just over a 100 male Aes Sedai expected to hold off the Dark One’s forces long enough for LTT to seal the Bore. Both actions, Sealing the Bore and HOlding the line, would have required immense use of the One Power, and I suspect every single one of them was loaded with the most powerful angreal and sa’angreal they could lay hands on. LTT himself later admits to Cadsuane that he used to have the male version of her set. The speed at which the men went mad supports it. As does the amount of damage they caused as they went mad.
On the purple prose… yeah. Entirely missed the metaphor too.
Hello everyone!
I’m new here, and my story with the series start one year ago, when my girlfriend bought for me the first two books of the series. Somewhere in October 2013 I started reading untill eventually I finished the series last May.
I’m from Israel, so if there is any problem with my english you can blame UK for ending it’s mandate over this land back in 1948.
Back to the main topic here.
What do you guys think about the prologue ending with Ishamael standing on the island of Tar Valon, staring at Dragonmount, and what it symbolizes?
anthonypero @16: Thanks!
anthonypero @18: TP, perhaps? Does Ishy not make a remark to LTT on how much healing him cost him?
fernandan @23: I guess that seals it. Nice point about there not being a taint for Semirhage to heal!
JasonDenzel @22: I fear that another ReRead is due once the Encyclopedia comes out. So many more theories to debunk (hopefully)…
Re: the Rods of Dominion. From the sources stated by others, they are indeed people. However, I can’t shake the feeling that they were objects as well. Just as ‘the crown’ is used to indicate the king/queen sometimes, the Rods might have been symbols of the rule of the nine people holding those positions. Plus, there’s just too much overlap with “Dominion” and the effects of the Oath Rod to ignore…
Or maybe this has been debunked already somewhere else, I must admit that pre Re-read, I did not read a lot about WoT, apart from the books themselves.
RE my comment @18 re: HOW Ishmael healed madness.
I realize he was using the TP. That’s not really where I was going with the comment. It was more of a “How did he know how to do it when Semirhage and Graendal didn’t” sort of comment. There had only been 100 years or so since the Bore was drilled, only about 50-70 with people having access to the TP… doesn’t seem long enough to work that out.
Also, since the Taint itself was less than a few months old, it doesn’t seem possible for Ishmael to have worked out the weave, since he would have had nothing to base the weave on.
Of course, at this point, Ishmael seems to have had some awareness and memories of his previous lives (probably due to overuse of the TP), so I suppose that could have helped.
anthonypero @62
Bear in mind that Rand, in full command of LTT’s memories didn’t take long to figure it out either. And as a Philosopher, Ishamael was generally better suited to theoretical discourse. Also, his access to the True Power might have allowed him to see the actual True Power compulsion weave that made up the madness even without Delving.
@60 Illianel I brought up the same question about Ishamael standing on the island in the first reread. Didn’t get much response. Maybe doesn’t symbolize anything, but was very cool nevertheless.
I think the Prologue is my most read chapter in the entire WoT, well, maybe in all my reading. I think I read it twice right off the bat, because I had no idea what was going on. Still didn’t, but decided to move along. Then “a wind rose” and I was hooked. Over the years I would go back to it and slowly it began to make more sense to me. Then, it became a source of speculation about what would happen later in the story. It’s really a masterful creation.
@60 Illianel and @64 Alphaleonis: I also found the fact a little ominous and it made me think later in the book, whenewher Tar Valon was brought up as this wonderfull place, that something is wrong with it or something bad will happen there. I don’t think it actually symbolizes anything, but everything in the prologue being so… legendary… well, in legends every little detail tends to be important. Maybe it was just the author’s way to make us remember that the island was created by the Dragon and how ironical it is, when some aes sedai became Rand’s enemies. Or just to give us this little, almost subconscious feeling “something’s wrong” about the place. Like if Ishamael could curse it by his mere presence. I think it’s so subtle it’s almost sneaky.
Lets see if I’ve got this right, Élan = Ishy = Moridin the guy who provided Rand (and LTT) with the getaway body, the one with no unhealable wound in the side. Nobody finds this noteworthy? The very beginning and the very end of this great epic includes these two guys
@54 Randalator, I’m still not sure the Birgitte’s joke is connected to whatever the hot-rod does. Especially because it’s Birgitte who says it and she might have a lot of funny memories like that. The hot-rod mystery was probably left unexplained, so that we could speculate but never know for sure, what Elayne actually did that night. It must have been something similarly embarrasing though.
Plus, picturing the lovely absurd idea of hot-rods being the Dominion rods symbols of power is not so amusing I thought it would be – I just pictured nine important politicians who have a meeting – or summit – and get really very drunk afterwards, just using ter-angreal instead of actuall drinking (maybe the hot-rod doesn’t give you hangover?) and it wasn’t very AOL, but… not that much absurd either. It actually made me consider it as a real theory for a second :)
Ah, so wonderful to see it all from the beginning again, and to go through it bit by bit in greater detail and analysis.
Purple prose? Well considering my own writing often falls into that style (both due to my love of verbose, complex, detailed fantasy writers and my wordsmithing nature), and said love of Tolkien and others like him, I’m probably a bit too biased to properly judge. But by the same token, my exposure to so many examples of the style makes it easier to tell what is done well and what isn’t, what is too florid and what is just right. And I’d definitely say the Prologue is exactly right. It’s not even as dense as the later books became, so it definitely shows it’s possible to be high-flown and rich and formal without becoming too bogged down and overwhelming. It certainly hooked me. The stylistic switch to the present day was also a wonderful choice that served its intended purpose, and I didn’t mind all the Tolkienesque flavoring in TEotW. It was familiar, reassuring, just as Jordan intended it to be, without being a direct plagiarism to offput me. And of course things changed drastically later (even within this very book).
I had remembered the quotations used in AMoL were old ones that had been used before, but I too forgot exactly where. Well, I knew one was in TEotW but not what part, and a small portion of the second one is quoted on the back of almost every one of the original paperback editions. But seeing they were both in the first, and where they were located compared to where they are in AMoL…nice, very well done. Of course I also got the Biblical allusions right away.
I think one thing that strikes me upon re-reads is not just the horror of what Lews Therin did (maybe I’m just a sap but it does still strike me painfully no matter how many times I read it–it’s Lews Therin’s reaction and words that sell it for me–but indeed not as viscerally as the very first time). It’s how good a job Jordan did at not just getting me in Lews Therin’s head, but making me like and identify with him. This despite the fact that, even before the reveal of his kinslaying is made, you can tell right away something isn’t right in his head. It’s obviously very critical that we do like and sympathize with him, since he is essentially who we’re going to be following for the rest of the series in reincarnated form as well as the one who must save the world (after what he did horribly destroyed it). But Jordan accomplishes this in such a very short space of time, in such memorable fashion, and again despite his insanity for most of it. That just shows the talent Jordan had for evoking character, pathos, and drama.
So for me, while all the foreshadowing and hints at greater stories both past and future and tantalizing bits of world- and character-building are fascinating, it comes down to me to how very human and vulnerable Lews Therin is, how deeply he regrets his fall from grace and wishes to redeem himself (though at this point having crossed his Despair Event Horizon he doesn’t yet see any way to do so and thus suicides), and how the seeds of his future heroism in Rand are planted here. This is his story, and while the contrast between where he starts here and where he ends up as Rand is great, I can see the same determination to be noble, good, and brave in both of them. It’s the thread of continuity that binds the series together, I think (well, one of them, but probably one of the greatest and most important), it made the shift to Rand’s perspective not as jarring as it otherwise might have been, and it obviously made it much easier to accept Rand as the reincarnation of this man we just met at the end of the War of Shadow.
Lastly, regarding the Nine Rods of Dominion, I made a comment about this waaaaaaaay back on the initial TEotW re-read post, and I think I’ll copy it here because it’s relevant and, understandably, didn’t get noticed so many years after the fact. (Plus since that post covered nine chapters there was a lot more to talk about.)
“An interesting thing to note: many of the Forsaken, either under their real names or their new names, have names identical to or similar to those of angels and archangels. There are nine orders of angels according to Christian theology; one of those orders is the Dominions, those who are in charge of maintaining order in the cosmos, and they are known for carrying orbs or scepters of divine authority—like the rods which were the emblems of the Nine Rods. So the Nine Rods of Dominion is both another Jordan reference to mythology, and an implication that those who were governors in the AOL, while not Aes Sedai who became Forsaken, were indeed incredibly powerful, beautiful, and influential. The fact they served Lews Therin, who is himself named after/based on the angel Lucifer, only underscores the connection.”
@1 Samadai: I’m going to do that ASAP, but for now I can imagine how incredible it must be.
@8 AeronaGreenjoy, @31 AndrewHB: Agreed. Recall that when Rand is able to make the grass and flowers grow when he meets Tuon, Mat hears him humming under his breath. Since the Song made chora trees grow and was also part of the Aiel’s seed-singing, it makes sense the talent to employ it would be called the Voice. The fact Lews Therin ends up reincarnated as a descendant of these same Aiel (who also served him) is another one of those ironies Jordan loved.
@14 MDNY: I figured out almost as soon as he appeared that Ba’alzamon was the bad guy from the prologue–his appearance and manner of dress (apart from the flaming eyes and mouth), his diction, the nature and content of his comments, it all made it the logical conclusion. What was not clear of course was just which of the Forsaken he was (that he wasn’t the Dark One was pretty obvious)–since at that point we didn’t have the Guide to tell us Elan Morin Tedronai was Ishamael.
@18/62 anthonypero, @23 fernandan, @59 alreadymad : I think you guys have addressed all the pertinent points–namely, that the healing was only temporary, and that Ishamael was able to do it because he used the True Power, and that he would know of the taint and be able to heal its madness unlike Semirhage because he was actually still outside the Bore to know and not fully trapped like she was. But let me add a few points.
First, since the taint was actually caused by the True Power, it stands to reason that it could be used to heal its madness, at least temporarily. Second, Ishamael was always the one who used the True Power most and knew how to use it in-depth–while Semirhage does show knowledge of it in TGS, her knowledge seems rudimentary, and while she does not show fear of it as other Forsaken do, it’s clear she is both unused to and uninterested in using it, probably because she needs the Dark One’s permission to use it and is quite able to do extraordinary (and horrible) things with just the One Power.
It is also worth noting that in KoD when she speaks of madness and its ability to be healed or not, she specifically is citing the cases mentioned to her by Graendal about “people who heard voices that were their past lives”. So not only did she not know of the taint or have experience dealing with it, but the Healing she and Graendal had attempted dealt only with madness with a natural cause–well, the Pattern’s cycle of reincarnation is metaphysical, but it’s still due to something in the body and soul, not a magically-induced outside force like the True Power and the taint. So basically, her not knowing how to Heal it and Ishamael knowing how (temporarily) is, if not apples and oranges, then at least oranges and lemons, since their causes and the means of Healing them would be different.
Finally, while the point about his knowledge of the True Power allowing him to see the weaves that caused the taint/madness (could he see the same thorns Nynaeve did?) makes a lot of sense, it is entirely possible the Dark One himself told Ishamael how to Heal it, and for the same reason we surmise Ishamael did it–so Lews Therin would know what he’d done and could be turned to the Shadow in his despair and self-loathing. Or barring that, to at least punish and eliminate him for making the seals, so that he’d be out of the way and the Dark One/Ishamael could start preparing for the Shadow’s plans in the next Age.
I also find it interesting that he claimed female Aes Sedai could give Lews Therin “a few lucid minutes.” First, this is our first implication that things could be done with the Power in the Age of Legends that could not be in the present–all the women at the White Tower say such a thing cannot be done, and until Nynaeve it couldn’t, so clearly any records of what these women did were lost in the Breaking. In fact what Nynaeve did may not even be what was done in the Age of Legends, since she seems to have eliminated taint madness permanently, not just for a few minutes. Anyway, the Aes Sedai then not being able to do it permanently could be a function of the taint being so powerful, of them not being able to link with men to cleanse it, or because they didn’t have access to the True Power. But Ishamael never claimed he could do it permanently either (and even if he could, the minute Lews Therin channeled he’d be exposed to the taint again). So it isn’t so much that he can do what no one else can, but that the Dark One allowed him enough information (or his knowledge of the True Power did) to temporarily heal Lews Therin for the purposes enumerated above.
@19 KiManiak: *blinks* I’d forgotten that. How could he have done that? I mean I know when you’re holding the Power your senses are sharper, and he is one of if not the most powerful male channeler in the series, but how would that let him know whether people were simply present? Since most of them would be non-channelers? Could he…have sensed their body heat or heard their breathing from that far off?? O_O
@29 Wetlander: Love this, agree 100%!
@31 AndrewHB: Well recall his madness is also caused by use of the True Power. At this point he hasn’t used it enough yet to go that mad (since he doesn’t have the flames yet). And I would guess he couldn’t access TAR while in the Bore but whenever he was out of it, he could.
@60 Illianel, @64 Alphaleonis: I think it actually symbolizes quite a bit. We have Ishamael, standing on the island where Tar Valon will be built–where the Aes Sedai will raise the White Tower to stand as a defense against both the maddened men and the Shadow itself. What is it that is one of the biggest reasons the Tower is weakened as Tarmon Gai’don approaches, that it in fact splits and falls into civil war? The Black Ajah. Who created it? Ishamael. He was also responsible for the Trolloc Wars (during which the Tower lost prestige due to Tetsuan betraying Manetheren) and indirectly the War of the Hundred Years, since as Moerad he turned Hawkwing against the Tower so he would not accept Aes Sedai Healing and sent Luthair away to Seanchan so there was no heir to his empire. Considering he ended up capturing Jain Farstrider and got hold of Isam to create Slayer, I wouldn’t be surprised if he caused the fall of Malkier too, another stain on the White Tower’s legacy. So in general Ishamael has been the biggest source of ruin and loss for the Tower…and here he is standing on the site where it will be built. It’s almost as if he’s already tainting it, declaring war on it before the fact by standing there.
And I see Tessuna @66 had a similar idea! ^_^
KiManiak@19
Wasn’t Rand doing the same type of thing post ephipheny? I think that’s a Dragon specific build to order feature and an element of that brain Nitebrite piece that Nyneave sees when she delves Rand in a desire to heal his Taint Madness. The Dragon being one with the land likely explains the ability to seal the bore perfectly (channel creation) and his ability to sense souls (or DO marked souls). I’m also convinced his Ta’veren ability makes some of that possible too (or acts as an amplifier since he’s a focal point in the Pattern).
macster
I agree that Ishamael’s statements on healing contextually imply the Taint slick must be removed from Saidin otherwise any lucidity is naturally temporary as even Channelers who hung out in Steddings eventually left because they were jonesing too much for the Source. Plus
we know that complete madness was either gradual or very quick with no warning in either case. Hence Taim’s poisoning program.
@69 macster: Nice wall of text! The last paragraph about names caught my attention. Names of characters in WoT and where are they coming from – now that would be a long discussion. But I noticed one thing that bugs me a little: the names, if similar to names of some mythological/legendary characters, are always (as far as I remember) just similar – except Telamon. Most of these names-allusions make sense to me, but this one doesn’t.
I didn’t feel much of a sadness the last time – as many others here said, it’s like watching Batman’s parents die again. But this time something changed for me and I was sad again (yay?). The last discussion made me think about Ilyena. I never knew much about her, so I wasn’t sad for her – just for LTT, that he lost her in most horrible way possible. Now the knowledge that she was aes sedai, plus thinking about what side was she on with the whole gender-division-thing, made me notice her for the first time as a character, and I was sad for her and wanted to know more about who she was.
I think it’s a bit unfair that we never learned names of their children. Yes, it would make the prologue even more sad – almost too much – but it’s just odd that LTT later in Rand’s head mourns only Ilyena and not their kids. Their names should be on his imaginary list.
This time rereading the prologue, at the sentence where LTT looks up from Ilyena’s body and his stare makes Ishy back away, it somehow reminded me of (don’t laugh at me) Galaxy Quest (if you saw, you know what scene I have in mind) and now I imagine LTT looking like Alan Rickman and cannot unthink it!
I’ve always viewed Telamon as a reference to the Musical God Harry Belafonte – you know, “Hey Mr. Telamon, Telamon bananas, take me back and I wanna go home – Day O.”
@69 That’s actually a really cool thought. I never made the conncetion between the Angel mythology and the Nine Rods of Dominon.
I always viewed the Nine Rods of Dominon, after RJ’s clarification, as a sort of Supreme Court for the Age of Legends. And that thier name came from objects that used to help them exercise their duty as judges or judicators. I also thought it was possible that the White Tower Oath Rod was a lesser version of whatever the Nine used.
How useful would it be as a judge to have a more powerful version of the Oath Rod?
If I’m not mistaken, one of the Ajaxes of the Iliad is surnamed Telamon. Perhaps RJ picked it up from there and kept it in the back of his mind. It has a nice ring to it. Certainly better than Aellinsar.
Ajax was the son of Telamon
@75 LonathanLevy and @76 Bouke: I know who Telamon was, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telamon), but my question was more sort of: what has this mythological character in common with LTT? He wasn’t very important, his name doesn’t have some deep symbolic meaning (unless the symbol is not the character, but the architecture thing, the column-statue, as in “weight of the whole world was on his shlouders” or something in that sense.) But if we got Thom Merrilin instead of Merlin, Gawyn instead of sir Gawain, even Elayne instead of Elaine, why Telamon stayed Telamon in WoT?
Most probably for no reason and I’m just wondering about insignificant detail, but I just wanted to refraze the question so it’s clear what insignificant detail I’m wondering about. :)
macster @70
What Nynaeve did is most definitely not how it was done in the Age of Legends because the Taint did NOT exist in the Age Of Legends. Furthermore, it was only permanent because there was no Taint to drive men back insane once more. If she’d discovered it before saidin was cleansed, anyone she healed would just go mad once more.
As for the Aes Sedai of the time being able to give Lews Therin “a few lucid moments”. After 14 books of Aes Sedai self delusion, I am of the opinion that it is simply just that from Ishamael. An Opinion. Aes Sedai of the Age Of Legends would clearly have the theoretical and practical background to figure out how to Heal the madness. It does not mean they had been able to. The cadre in Paaran Disen who sent the Aiel on their way notably did not discuss any option about the approaching madman save to evacuate before he got there.
Even if they knew how to Heal madmen, it might be difficult to Heal someone while he is trying to kill everyone.
Not only was madness difficult to heal (Semirhage, the greatest healer of the Age of Legends, had difficulty with it, and Graendel, the greatest psychologist, was limited in what she could do), but the madness from the Taint of Saidin is not really madness in the traditional sense. It was an external “madness” caused by the Dark One, not something internal that could be “haled”. When Nynaeve finally does heal it, it’s because she becomes so skilled at delving that she is able to perceive the “black spikes” driven into male channelers’ brains and figures out how to remove them (she later compares compulsion to the taint, though I don’t know how accureate that is).
Tesssuna @77: Or Egwene al Vere in place of Guinevere, Galad in place of Galahad, etc.
RobM @73: I hate to dash your illusions, if indeed they are such, but the tally man is the guy who “tallied” the bannanas the workers brought from the field so they could be paid, so Harry’s protagonist is asking the tally man to tally his bannanas because daylight is falling and he wants to go home. Sorry.
@73 RobMRobM: Maybe that is the song Tinkers have been looking for…:) And thanks, I had a song stuck in my head and couldn’t get rid of it, now it has been replaced by this one.
@81 Alisonwonderland: If we want to list all names and where are they coming from, it will take some time. I add Nynaeve – Nimue and Lan – Lancelot, and I thought of another one that remains unchanged: Bors. Your turn :)
If Harriet and Brandon relent from their firm stand on not doing any more backstories, this is the one I would most like to see: “Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you sumoned the Nine Rods of Dominion.- – – You humbled me in the Hall of Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen. – – -”
I am convinced that if RJ had lived, we would have seen the fullness of this story. I liked New Spring OK, but I would much rather have seen this prequel than that one by a factor of many times. As it is, this part of the prologue seems like false advertizing. Like a movie trailer that brings people to the theater, then we watch the movie and never get that major part of the plot.
I don’t know if RJ left any notes on this, but I think Brandon has the imagination to build the story even if not. Some of the fanfic writers on this site may even be able to.
Even though. The prologue is what cemented me to this series, and I still love it.
Let’s talk about the “healing” of LTT for a bit more. My own take on this developed well after this prologue and probably jelled after Asmodean was captured. The forsaken males were shielded from the taint madness by a connection to the Dark Lord. I recall Rand seeing it as a black cord that stretched off into the distance. Asmodean was scared that he would now go mad as his protection from the taint was now gone.
Not everyone was allowed to use the True Power, only those favored by the Dark Lord. Ishmael uses it almost exclusively and we now know that it is the essence of the Dark Lord.
Therefore, the healing as it were, is a temporary block of the taint using the True power to slam a shield between the “oily sheen” of the taint and Saidin. LTT for a short time had a connection to the Dark Lord. Hurt like hell and would not have lasted long. It did last long enough for Lews to punch a hole in the crust, immolate himself and create a new volcano.
So, my first looney theory of the Redux. I’ll be in the bunker munching on some pita chips and hummus that I brought along.
@76 Bouke
Dispatch war rocket ‘Ajax’ to bring back his body!
@85 Randalator: :D! I never thought of this being an allusion to Iliad, but… quoting wikipedia: “When Patroclus is killed, Hector tries to steal his body. Ajax, assisted by Menelaus, succeeds in fighting off the Trojans and taking the body back with his chariot.”
Mythological allusions, both names and other references, have a fairly robust entry already in the WOTFAQ:
http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/150
@84 JeffS.: Doesn’t seem looney to me. I just remembered my old looney theory (I had it after reading book 5 for the first time and it has been disproved since) that LTT didn’t just immolate, but balefire himself in attempt to save Ilyena and other people he killed (you know, kind of like Superman flying around the Earth to turn back time). But then he probably would’t be reborn, right? I still like it even if it doesn’t make sense.
I’m just baking a pie, I’ll bring it to the bunker later.
@81-82. ;-)
@88:
Actually, I beleive RJ has said that balefired individuals, while having their threads burned from the current pattern, can be rewoven into it in the future. So, while Balefired souls are beyond the Dark One’s reach, they aren’t beyond the Pattern’s reach.
I think the justification for this was that the DO has to grab your soul at the moment of your death, but with balefire, there is no oppotunity to do that, since you died BEFORE the moment of your Death.
@90: So – not so looney after all? I mean, is that what could have happened? Could LTT balefire himself in attempt to unravel his last actions? What if he actually saved Ilyena (and possibly their children)?
birgit @79
There are ways. You would essentially need two circles. One to Shield him and one to do the Healing. Still, easier said than done if it’s one of the Hundred Companions packing an angreal or sa’angreal.
MDNY @80
On the other hand, if the madness is similar to Compulsion, then it should be easier for the Aes Sedai of the AOL to perform the Healing. It’s just difficult as hell, as noted above, and pointless as they’ll eventually go mad again.
Just going through my Big White Ugly Book! Man the Art Sucks! lol
Interesting read on the Age of legends though; It talks about the Nine Rods of Dominion and the fact that 9 positions answered to the ring bearer; who wore the ring called Tamyrlin. (LOTR) It also goes on to speculate that the oath rod was one of the Dominions. Wonder if the dominions had names Like the dominion for truth???
Also: is there a chance that a good Map of Randland can be found on the Net???
Thanks
@88, 90, 81
I find it quite tempting to believe that Lews Therin attempted to balefire himself back far enough that he did not kill Ilyena. This was my initial understanding of the text.
However, Robert Jordan is on record saying that LTT killed himself by channeling too much of the One Power.
My guess is that there are traces of a minor retcon here. Originally, RJ envisioned LTT trying to balefire himself to save Ilyena (which is so poetically fitting); he also saw death by balefire utterly final, putting the soul beyond the reach of the Dark One and the Wheel, since the thread was literally burned out of the Pattern. At this point, he made no distinction in his mind between the Dark One resurrecting a life and the Wheel recycling a thread.
Then the question arose in his mind – if LTT balefired himself, how could the Wheel recycle his thread? Since he had never explicitly stated that LTT had balefired himself, it was easy to say that he had just drawn too much of the Power, and the contradiction was avoided.
However, at some point he felt a need to allow the wheel to recycle the threads of balefired people – perhaps it seemed unreasonable that none of the Heroes of the Horn had ever died of balefire. So he explicitly stated that distinction – the DO cannot resurrect balefired souls, but the Wheel can recycle their threads. At this point, the previous retcon (LTT died of OP overdoes, not balefire) became unnecessary, but it was too late to revise it.
There is no hard evidence for any of this speculation, but I find it tempting, because the death of LTT fits so beautifully with the idea that he was balefiring himself to save Ilyena. The technical description matches perfectly; the idea is beautiful; and the speculation that he might have succeeded is absolutely tantalizing.
@94 JonathanLevy
RJ describes a bolt of liqueified light striking LTT and boring into the earth. I would agree with your reading of it as balefire if not for one small sentence in the prologue: “Stone turned to vapor at its touch.”
That’s not an effect of balefire. Balefire should make the stone simply “cease to exist”…
@94 JonathanLevy: Thank you for an explanation… I also find the idea absolutely tantalizing :)
@95 Randalator: That is just a tiny detail. It may be even a figure of speech – not so familiar with english, but if I say “turn to vapor” in czech, I mean “disappear”. And also this is the prologue – the first mention of balefire is, as far as I remember, in TDR – that is a long time and RJ may have done some changes in describing effects of balefire in the meantime, especially if his idea about what LTT did changed, like JonathanLevy said.
But now I wonder: if you balefire someone, his thread unravels back in time so his last actions “never happened”. Can you even balefire yourself? Wouldn’t it unravel the very fact of you balefiring? (Just a little time paradox ;) )
Purple prose or not, I remember loving the prologue and being somewhat disappointed by the transition to Two Rivers. Even though I like TEoTW more than most, again LoTR similarities or no. Go, Moiraine! Ahem. Anyway, in a way, the series didn’t live up to the tragic grandeur of the one true prologe ;), IMHO. Except for Rand’s wayback ter’angrial visions, of course.
Tessuna @77:
I always thought that “Telamon” was an allusion to Ajax Telamonides (Telamonian Ajax), because of these notable similarities (quoting from wikipedia):
In Sophocles’ play “Ajax” a famous retelling of Ajax’s demise takes place—after the armor is awarded to Odysseus the hero Ajax is so insulted, that he wants to kill the sons of Atreus (Agamemnon and Menelaus). But Athena intervenes and clouds his mind and vision. He goes to a flock of sheep and slaughters them, imagining they are the Achaean leaders, including Odysseus and Agamemnon. When he comes to his senses, covered in blood, and realizes that what he has done has diminished his honor, and he decides that he prefers to kill himself rather than live in shame.
Telamonian Ajax was also a great warrior and military leader, strongest of the Achaeans, etc. Oh, and his quarrel and competition with Odysseus, where the latter proved to be more eloquent is reminiscent of LTT versus Latra Posae.
@97 Isilel, thanks, I don’t know how could I not see that. I only looked up Telamon, Ajaxes father, and didn’t think of “Telamonian” as a surname – it isn’t, it’s just there was another character called Ajax and this was a way to tell them apart. But the parallel fits perfectly.
Now it seems nicely poetic to me, that LTT was reborn as a sheepherder :)
I only found this reread last year, so am very glad that the redux gives me the chance to join in real time.
What struck me on this reread, and lifted the tragedy back out of the “Batman’s parents” nothingness, was the strong family ties that Lews Therin clearly had – the sense of home and fun that Rand is about to lose forever. Ilyena is not just a tragic heroine – she was a kind hostess who probably talked too much and maybe had a bit of a temper, and Lews thinks of his children’s play being stilled in a way that implies that he was not the absent father that we might expect the world’s most powerful man to be. It seems to me that, in murdering his family, his soul’s ability to relate to people is somehow tarnished – when Rand later falls in love, there is always this tortured quality to it, an inability to enjoy that love that I feel goes beyond his circumstances. That sense of doom and guilt which will outlive Lews Therin’s own lifetime, darkening even his future incarnations, seems to be the real tragedy.
Hunny? Yes! Just in time for the next post.
Meira – welcome! Nice thought.
I had always taken Lews Therin first name to be of mythological importance as well. Refering to the Celtic god Lugh (pronounced “loo” or “lew”) in his Irish form or Lleu (mispelled Llew) in his Welsh form.
He was a god of battle mainly, but according to some mythology he was a master at pretty much everything, and was often disliked by other gods for being so succesful. Also he seems to be the only one who can ever stand up to Balor (god of darkness and death) in a fight. Even putting out his eye at one point (Sightblinder ya know?) And was said to wield a “spear of light” or “lightening spear” that was so thirsty for blood it had to be fed poppy milk or it would kill everything around it.
In his Welsh form, Lleu is condiered to be a warrior and magician of high standing. Also I find it funny that the Welsh flag bears a scarlet serptine figure with feet.
I’ve just started rereading this series and I love that I found this thread! So many things I’ve never noticed before!!
Welcome Meira!
Bear in mind though, that by the time Rand falls in love, he has hanging over him the shadow of the awesome destiny that the Dragon Reborn has in store for him. To be both messiah and destroyer and go mad in the process. That’ll give a tortured feel to anyone.
Welcome Jwh891!
Very good observation. I don’t believe I’ve come across anybody pointing out the parallels you identified. And they’re spot on too!
@72 Tessuna: You’re absolutely right, Ilyena has been forgotten as a character in her own right by so many. I do hope more of her and her story will be included in the encyclopedia. As for why Lews Therin and Rand focused only on her…well part of it was the madness, but I think it was also Rand’s chivalry thing that he focused on to be his Moral Event Horizon he would not cross. Because he chose (thanks to his upbringing, and possibly echoes of his past life not yet fully realized) to make killing women his big taboo, and not the killing of children, that’s why he put her name on his list and not his children’s.
Also to you @77, I think your idea of Telamon being used in a metaphorical sense for Lews Therin/Rand being the one who had the whole weight of the world/destiny on his shoulders actually makes a lot of sense.
@74 Jwh891: I wouldn’t have myself, if I hadn’t happened to look at a book about angels at Barnes & Noble right around the time I was re-reading TEotW (and had found the re-read).
You also have an interesting idea about it being like the Supreme Court. Jordan would obviously know why the number nine for a governmental group would resonate for American readers at least (although nine also has religious and mythological significance). He made it very clear the Nine Rods were not Oath Rods. But if the Nine Rods (the people) were judges, it’s almost guaranteed they did use binders in their work, since they were used on criminals.
@84 JeffS: A very fascinating theory. And it might lend weight to the whole thing with Rand becoming linked with Moridin and being able to draw the True Power through that link…because though he didn’t remember it at the time, he had been connected to the Dark One and his power once before…
@94 JonathanLevy: You’re right, it is beautiful and poetic, but there’s another problem (aside from the language bit Randalator noted): First, if he is balefiring himself, why does he also raise a mountain? And second, much more importantly, if he balefired himelf so as to undo his actions in killing Ilyena, he would also have undone his actions in blasting into the earth’s crust, and thus there would be no Dragonmount.
@97 Isilel: Oh wow! I had completely forgotten about that bit about Ajax (if I ever knew it *shifty eyes*). Perfect parallel and allusion. (And yes to @98, the sheepherder bit has to be intentional too!)
@101 Jwh91: *falls over* I didn’t even know about those connections either. Wow!
@94, 103: The paradoxes implied there could have been a great cause for an even more devastating Breaking.
@Anthony Pero: Could be, but that still wouldn’t explain why (to follow JonathanLevy’s theory) Ilyena could be alive again but Dragonmount would also still exist. It has to be one or the other, and if the Pattern was damaged that badly by the paradoxes, you’d think it would have been torn apart back then. Or at least that which event remained in the timeline and which didn’t would have been affected after the Pattern resolved and repaired itself.
Its a volcano. Stuff that gets balefired (like, I dunno, a five mile hole in the ground that reaches to the planet core) doesn’t come back. Dragonmount, in that scenario would be a result of that hole, a secondary effect of what the balefire caused.
Please note I am not arguing for this interpretation. The description doesn’t fit. But it would have been cool.
@106 anthonypero
Yep, Balefire effects are wonky like that.
Like when Rand Balefires Rahvin, it undoes Rahvin’s actions of the last half hour or so, but the damage done by the rampant Balefiring up to that point remains. Even though technically the reason for all that Balefiring was removed from reality and hellllloooooooooooo
nurseparadox.So, even though I’m totally not subscribing to the LTT-auto-Balefire theory, the existence of Dragonmount is no argument against it…
Whoot! I claim the hunny!
Hi Leigh ::waves::
When I first saw the “historical passages” I thought, “hey cool, maybe we will get a full picture, maybe a chapter, maybe a book, about when things first went sideways”. Later it was just like some crazy person spouting random nonsense and it became filler that I glossed over. For some 13D and DM folks it was Shakespearean gospel to be poured over and disected with a scalpel, I felt it was like any adult in a Charlie Brown show “wa wa wawa wa”. Now I might actually have to read this stuff.
As for the rest, well, I’m starting to think we should all look at this world from Batman’s perspective. Because, you know, he’s awesome, we have a Bruce Wayne reference here and at some point my life would be complete if Mat would have said, “I’m Batman”.
And Batman would have figured out the Last Battle way before monkey pants came around with his surprise army and magic wand.
Woof™.
So, if the Nine Rods of Dominion are offices that Lews Therin has power over, and this is a reference to the rings given to Men in LoTR, what does that make the Ring of Tamyrlin that he wears?