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Supporting Cast — Star Trek: Strange New Worlds: “The Broken Circle”

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Supporting Cast — Star Trek: Strange New Worlds: “The Broken Circle”

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Supporting Cast — Star Trek: Strange New Worlds: “The Broken Circle”

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Published on June 15, 2023

Photo Credit: Michael Gibson/Paramount+
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Photo Credit: Michael Gibson/Paramount+

I want to start my review of the second-season premiere of Strange New Worlds with the last bit of it: at the very end of the episode before the credits, we get a black screen with the words:

For Nichelle
who was first through the door
and showed us the stars
Hailing frequencies forever open…

I’ll give you all a second to get the dust out of your eyes…

Fitting that the first episode of SNW produced since Nichelle Nichols’ death has a story where the episode’s action is catalyzed by the talents of Ensign Uhura at communications. In the months since the conclusion of season one, Uhura has graduated, been made an ensign and assigned to Enterprise as a communications officer. And yet, in that same amount of time, Number One’s court-martial hasn’t happened yet, and they haven’t replaced La’an or Hemmer.

With regards to the former, let us look at my biggest disappointment with this episode, which is what doesn’t happen, to wit, a resolution of the cliffhanger. “A Quality of Mercy” ended with Number One’s arrest, and those of us who were hoping that it’d be resolved, tough noogies.

In fact, both Pike and Number One are limited to a couple scenes in the teaser, ending with Pike buggering off to find a particular lawyer who hasn’t been returning Pike’s or Number One’s phone calls. That is the full extent of what we see of Captain Daddy and Auntie Una this week.

Which, I gotta say, really pissed me off for a bit, as I really want Number One back on the bridge and maybe actually getting to do something this season. But that’s not what this episode is about and I’m honestly—now that I’ve calmed down—okay with it, because the secondary characters get the spotlight this week, and it’s really good and it picks up on some stuff from Discovery.

It was established in Discovery’s “Brother” that Enterprise was kept far from the front lines during the Klingon war that took up that show’s first season. (What they were doing instead was nicely chronicled by my friend and colleague John Jackson Miller in the novel The Enterprise War.) But some of the crew did serve in the war, among them M’Benga and Ortegas.

Photo Credit: Michael Gibson/Paramount+

Now that war is in danger of being started back up. There’s a planet on the border, Cajitar IV, which has massive veins of dilithium. The mining syndicate on Cajitar sold to both sides during the war. As part of the terms of the treaty that ended the war, the Federation and Klingons alternate getting the planet each month, and the Klingons’ thirty days just started.

Here’s the problem: La’an is on that planet. She took leave after “All Those Who Wander” to help Oriana, the only survivor of the Gorn massacre, find her parents. She found them on Cajitar. Unfortunately, several people on the world—including Oriana’s two moms—are suffering ion radiation poisoning. Dilithium won’t cause that, but photon torpedoes can. Plus a new mining syndicate is buying up Federation tech.

La’an is trying to learn more by posing as a seller, but she needs help. Since the planet’s under Klingon control, the best she can do for a distress call is a hidden message to Enterprise that Uhura is able to decode. Spock is left in charge with Pike off searching for lawyers and Number One in jail. (Spock is apprehensive about this, but Enterprise is docked at Starbase 1 for inspection, repairs, and upgrades, so Pike is fairly certain things should be smooth. Spock points out that those are what humans call “famous last words,” and Spock, naturally, is completely right.)

April refuses Spock’s request to answer the distress call. La’an isn’t currently even in Starfleet, they’re not completely sure it’s a real message from her, and it’s on a world currently controlled by Klingons, who will fire on any Starfleet ship that shows up and probably start the war back up. They’ll have to wait until the Federation gets the world back in a month.

Spock trusts La’an’s word, and so logically the only thing he can do is steal the Enterprise. This is, by the way, 100% in character, and anyone who argues otherwise should be forced to watch “The Menagerie,” “Operation—Annihilate!” The Motion Picture, and The Wrath of Khan to be reminded of all the times Spock has done some crazy-ass shit because logic led him down that path.

The trick is to get the inspection team off the ship. Mitchell fakes a coolant leak that will lead to a warp-core breach. While most of the inspection team follows the subsequent order to evacuate, the head of the team—Commander Pelia, played by the great Carol Kane—sees through the deception in about a second-and-a-half. However, she doesn’t report to Starfleet and even offers to run the engine room for the trip for three reasons: (1) she hasn’t been in space in years and she misses it, (2) Vulcans, in her experience, don’t do anything without a good reason, and (3) she’s friends with Spock’s Mom.

I have to say that, even if there was nothing worthwhile in the rest of the episode, it was worth it to give us Pelia. She’s a Lanthanite, a species of immortals who look human, and who lived among humans undetected on Earth until the twenty-second century. Kane plays her like a slightly calmer version of Simka from Taxi. She’s an absolute joy, giving the character a relaxed canniness that comes from having seen it all—and that cliché is not an exaggeration. Plus, she’s friends with Amanda and I’m now counting the nanoseconds until Mia Kirshner comes back to play Spock’s Mom so we can see her and Pelia together…

It soon becomes clear that the new syndicate, which is called the Broken Circle, wants to start the war back up, following the 34th Ferengi Rule of Acquisition that war is good for business (and not so much the 35th Rule, which is that peace is good for business). To that end, they’re building a fake Starfleet ship and going to use it to fire on a Klingon battle cruiser.

Complicating matters is that M’Benga and Chapel have been kidnapped. Having gone to a med tent to treat Oriana’s parents and the other folks suffering from ion radiation poisoning, the Broken Circle takes them to their fake ship to treat their own ion radiation sufferers. This is where we find out just how traumatic being a doctor in a war was for M’Benga, as he’s sliding down a PTSD razorblade from the moment the Klingons kidnap him. Babs Olasunmokun magnificently sells M’Benga’s trauma, particularly in his eyes, when they first get onto the ship.

Photo Credit: Michael Gibson/Paramount+

Unfortunately, shortly after that is when the episode goes a bit off the rails. M’Benga and Chapel inject themselves with green goo that gives them Super Space Adrenaline, or something, enabling them to beat up Klingons. This leads to several very long, very tiresome fight scenes, which are pretty much there to give us some Action! Scenes! yet which wind up being the most boring part of the hour.

It’s one of two missteps, the other being La’an’s first scene, which is yet another drinking competition that’s a riff on Marion Ravenwood’s drinking competition scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, which we’ve seen a billion times before. It follows the exact same beats as that of the forty-two-year-old movie and does nothing to add to it, or to the episode, as you could excise the scene and nothing changes.

It does show that the Klingon makeup is back to something closer to that seen in the movies and the 1987-2005 spinoffs rather than the redesign done for the Bad Robot movies and the first two seasons of Discovery. (I’m sure Discovery’s legion of haters will use this as an excuse to show that SNW has nothing to do with the other show, never mind that the entire episode is built around the events of Discovery’s first season.) Personally, I don’t give a good goddamn—while the makeup is indeed similar, it’s not exactly the same. For that matter, the movie makeup from the first six original series movies is not the same as what we saw on TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, and the TNG movies. I’m more wondering where the smooth-headed Klingons from the original series (which were established as a subset of the species in Enterprise’s “Affliction”/“Divergence”) are…

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The standout in this episode is Ethan Peck. He continues the stellar work he did in Discovery season two and SNW season one, giving us a younger, less sure of himself Spock. And yet, you see so many of Leonard Nimoy’s mannerisms and speaking patterns here. (His talk with April at the end of the episode is particularly Nimoyish.) It’s a tough trick to give us a new look at a well-established character, but Peck and the writers are doing a great job of it so far.

It helps that they’re giving him a journey to go on. His deliberate breaking down of his emotional control in “All Those Who Wander” is something he still hasn’t recovered from, but we know that, several years’ hence, he’ll have much better control. To that end, M’Benga diagnoses him with stress and suggests music having charms to soothe the savage breast, and hands him a ka’athyra—a Vulcan lute, which we know Spock plays regularly years hence in the original series. And M’Benga is the one who gave it to him! Which is fabulous!

Meantime, Spock’s still struggling his way through command in ways both dramatic (waiting until the last possible second to fire on the fake ship in order to give M’Benga and Chapel time to escape it) and humorous (part of how he convinces the Klingons to not start a war and believe his claims about the fake ship is to get drunk with them).

And I particularly like the dynamic that’s developing between Spock and Chapel. The best prequels are ones that add texture to the thing that it’s a prequel to. As I’ve said before, giving Chapel and Spock this history adds tremendous texture to the dynamic of the two of them on the original series, particularly “The Naked Time,” “Amok Time,” “Plato’s Stepchildren,” and “Return to Tomorrow,” among others. It makes it much more than Chapel having a dewy-eyed I-can-never-have-him crush on Spock. I’m really looking forward to seeing how this proceeds.

In the end, Spock is forgiven, because Star Trek characters are always forgiven when they disobey orders. I especially love April’s response to Spock’s declaration that he will accept any punishment the admiral will mete out for his keeping the Federation out of a war. April says that the Klingon hangover he’s suffering through is punishment enough…

With luck, we’ll have Mom and Dad back next week, and Number One will have her day in court.

Keith R.A. DeCandido is one of the contributors to the Weird Western anthology The Good, the Bad, and the Uncanny, currently crowdfunding on Kickstarter. Edited by Jonathan Maberry and to be published by Outland Entertainment, the anthology includes a story by Keith called “The Legend of Long-Ears,” which features Bass Reeves and Calamity Jane. There are also stories by Trek scribes Greg Cox, Jeffrey J. Mariotte, and Aaron Rosenberg, as well as New York Times best-sellers Josh Malerman and Scott Sigler, and ten more great authors. Please consider supporting it!

About the Author

Keith R.A. DeCandido

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Keith R.A. DeCandido has been writing about popular culture for this site since 2011, primarily but not exclusively writing about Star Trek and screen adaptations of superhero comics. He is also the author of more than 60 novels, more than 100 short stories, and more than 70 comic books, both in a variety of licensed universes from Alien to Zorro, as well as in worlds of his own creation, most notably the new Supernatural Crimes Unit series debuting in the fall of 2025. Read his blog, or follow him all over the Internet: Facebook, The Site Formerly Known As Twitter, Instagram, Threads, Blue Sky, YouTube, Patreon, and TikTok.
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Mary
Mary
1 year ago

I, too, would’ve preferred Una’s trial being the season premiere since that’s the story I really care about. But I understand why this had to be first since Spock has to be in command of the Enterprise. His decision to defy orders and steal the Enterprise to respond La’an’s distress call was pretty audacious. I’m impressed. One thing though—M’Benga says that Spock releasing his emotions caused his cognitive block to drop. Okay, but it’s not a permanent thing—all he has to do is resume meditation and retrain himself. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m just saying M’Benga could’ve worded it in a way which didn’t suggest that Spock’s cognitive block was gone forever and he’d have to live with his emotions.
 
The “I want the ship to go NOW” is just lame. In fact, the whole “Starfleet captains have to have a command catchphrase is lame.” In-universe, I don’t think it’s a common thing. I think some officers just like to convince their commanding officers that it is.
 
Commander Pelia seems like a really fun character. I do have one minor disappointment. Recently, I read a review that said Commander Pelia was a “Guinan-type” character and I thought, great she’s an El-Aurian. Now, we find out she’s a Lanthanite. I might be in the minority here, but why invent new aliens when we have perfectly good existing ones already? Just a pet peeve of mine.
 
Klingons! Finally—normal looking Klingons! I HATED when Discovery changed their appearance. It was just change for the sake of change and I couldn’t get past it. Anyway, I’m glad they’re revisiting the Klingons since they are the predominant villains for this time period. BTW, the Broken Circle trying to restart the war for profit is an interesting concept.
 
I’ve seen some complaints on Twitter that Klingons shouldn’t have ridges now. I’m sure it would’ve made the old-school TOS fans happy but those of us who grew up with TNG I’m not so sure about and brand new viewers I’m sure wouldn’t like the TOS look. I personally think they made the right choose here. 
 
I love that M’Benga & Chapel save the day and their bold move to launch themselves into space.
 
The Gorn! Yes! I’m so glad the show is following up on them!
 
Overall, it was a fine season premiere, I guess. Not really one of my favorites since it’s pretty action-oriented.

 
Also, the dedication quote to Nichelle Nichols was a nice touch. It was beautiful. 

jaimebabb
1 year ago

Having seen the Klingons in the trailer, I had hoped that Mary Chieffo would be back as L’Rell, but not in this episode at least. I already love Carol Kane’s character, and I’m curious about these Lanthanites; are they a long-lived alien species that just happens to look human (like the El-Aurians) or a subspecies of humans that just happens to be long-lived (like Flint?). Does she know Guinan? Can we bring Ito Aghayere back?

That said, I found this episode to be an extremely mediocre way to start a new season. As you note, the fight scene with the Klingons was simply endless, and it raises the question: if Starfleet has drugs that allow two noncombatant medics to fist-fight an entire squadron of Klingons, why have we never seen them used before or since? I also feel like something as momentous as Spock’s first command of the Enterprise deserves to be treated more seriously (or at least to appear in an episode that’s primarily about Spock). Also, we need to retire the “command catchphrase” gag; it was never more than mildly amusing on Discovery and it has just gotten more tiresome with its appearances on Picard and in this series.

Hopefully they just threw this one together because Paramount+ wanted to start with an “action” episode or something like that, and it’s not actually indicative of the quality of the rest of the season.

sef
sef
1 year ago

I’m not going to pretend otherwise: I *sobbed* with that dedication. Not a lot — basically a sob for each blob of text that showed up.

JohnD
JohnD
1 year ago

I had very similar impressions and reactions, and felt it was a strong start to the new season. In more trivial matters, the arrangement between the Federation and Klingons on Cajitar reminded me of the conclusion to John M. Ford’s novel How Much for Just the Planet?, where the inhabitants of Direidi came up with another sort of arrangement regarding dilithium mining.

M
M
1 year ago

Spot on review, including the shortcomings. I was bored by the extended fight scenes, and was quite annoyed by the absurdity of it. Plus, it absolutely unnecessary. Just having our heroes on the rogue ship as it takes off is enough tension.

Chase
Chase
1 year ago

Scheduling this episode before Una’s trial makes some sense, if only to bring La’an back into Starfleet so she can be an important witness. 

I might be in the minority, but I’m mostly okay with the catchphrase gag because they have gotten some good mileage out of it. I’d be fine it if it ends here though, because Spock’s awkward attempt is really the perfect culmination of it.

Maybe we don’t see this green power up goo in the future because it’s actually some kind of space meth, and Starfleet officers are not supposed to use it.

I’ve long been hoping that SNW would tell a story about how Kor, Kang, Koloth, and the rest of their smooth-headed brethren ended up essentially running the Empire for a decade or so. It’s not just the physical difference that matters, because the OG Klingons had a very different way of operating compared to the Viking Samurai that they became in TNG. Could be interesting.

Lastly, I greatly appreciated that they more or less ignored ST6’s moronic implication that Uhura doesn’t know a word of Klingon.

Ben
Ben
1 year ago

It’s not a bad episode, but it’s not going to go down as one of SNW’s strongest, and it’s an oddly dour note to set as a tone for the upcoming season. The first season premier was full of optimism and hope even when circumstances seemed dire, and this episode at times almost seems to be the reverse. We are now reminded that so many characters are carrying the trauma of the Klingon War: Ortega knowing how to hide among asteroids, Chapel with her medical knowledge, and M’Benga who has apparently been carrying Emergency Punching Juice on every single away mission. And to hammer the point home, April makes it clear that the Gorn are coming in force and Starfleet is not going to be at peace during season 2 of a show called Strange New Worlds. I could be wrong, and I’m not saying it can’t work as a season-long arc, but we’re very far from Pike giving an anti-war, aspirational speech to the 21st-century-equivalent aliens.

I’m also worried that the writers of SNW are building toward some Big Moment for Spock which will make him decide that he needs to shut down open expression of his emotions for all of TOS, and that’s how they will reconcile the two shows and two portrayals of the character. 

Pelia is great, though. A fantastic twist on the old “alien observes humanity from the outside” Trek character, and clearly much more willing to get down and dirty with the technobabble than Guinean ever did. Here’s hoping this chief engineer actually gets an episode devoted to her…

Hal
Hal
1 year ago

Aside from Discovery turning the Klingons into vicious space monsters, I thought the worst thing about the redesign is that I couldn’t understand half of what they were saying. It sounded like they had cotton balls in their mouths.

Mary
Mary
1 year ago

@/7

Maybe we don’t see this green power up goo in the future because it’s actually some kind of space meth, and Starfleet officers are not supposed to use it.

@/8

M’Benga who has apparently been carrying Emergency Punching Juice on every single away mission. 

 

A few reviews mentioned that an episode would deal with “performance enhancing drugs”. For some reason, I wondered if that would involve Ortegas somehow. But after today, I’m wondering if it’s M’Benga. (Note, it might not even involve anyone in the main cast. It’s just a thought I had)

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

 I’m afraid I didn’t enjoy this one very much. I find the setup hard to believe — Admiral April is informed of a serious threat to Federation security, and he just ignores it because of politics, so the only recourse is to steal a starship? Isn’t that the kind of situation where you call in Starfleet Intelligence? Surely there must have been an alternative plan that April would’ve gone for.

Also, while I admit that having Spock steal the Enterprise from spacedock to rescue a member of his crew has a certain symmetry to it, it’s a very contrived symmetry and it kind of undermines the impact of TSFS’s theft. Also, despite the precedent of TSFS’s dialogue, shouldn’t it really be called hijacking rather than stealing?

The whole “warp catchphrase” thing has become tiresome and overdone by this point. And it made no sense to put in a comic-relief sidebar in this particular situation where going to warp was a matter of immediate urgency.

I hate what they did with M’Benga and Chapel here. First off, Chapel served in the war? Didn’t the pilot establish that she came from a civilian exchange program (in keeping with “What Are Little Girls Made Of?” establishing that she only joined Starfleet 5 years before the episode, or about a year after this)? Also, I loathe the attitude that a doctor and a nurse have to be turned into super-badass fighters in order to be cool. Saving lives is infinitely cooler than punching and shooting people. Worst of all, the episode fell back on the ugly, deeply wrong assumption that torture is a means of interrogation. No. You can’t get reliable intelligence out of people by hurting them; it’s actually counterproductive. Torture is not interrogation, it’s abuse and bullying, nothing more. It badly undermines M’Benga and the show to reduce him to this.

Pelia is an interesting character, but if it’s known that a race of immortal humanoids was living in secret among humans on Earth for centuries, then in “Requiem for Methuselah,” why didn’t Kirk, Spock, and McCoy suspect Flint was a Lanthanite when he revealed he was immortal?

I do find the show’s approach to Spock and Chapel interesting. It recontextualizes TOS without necessarily contradicting it. Spock losing his emotional control here and having to fight to regain it could explain why he was so much more controlled and distant in TOS. It was inconsistent how someone who’d served alongside humans for 11 years under Pike could be so seemingly naive about humans in TOS. But it’s not so inconsistent if he’s overcompensating for his past loss of control.

As for Chapel, I just reviewed her dialogue in “The Naked Time,” and her line to Spock about knowing that Vulcans have emotions despite what people say makes more sense in the context of what we know now. (Although “They say the men of Vulcan treat their women strangely” doesn’t fit, but then, that line has aged badly and is best ignored.) TOS’s Spock-Chapel relationship can work as two people who used to be close and are uncomfortable with their past baggage, rather than the distant unrequited crush it was intended to be at the time. (Not so sure about “Mudd’s Passion,” though; that was just an embarrassment to Chapel all around.)

 

“…a Vulcan lute, which we know Spock plays regularly years hence in the original series. And M’Benga is the one who gave it to him! Which is fabulous!”

Except we saw that Spock already had the lute on the wall of his quarters in “Spock Amok” last season. So that doesn’t quite work. At most, M’Benga encouraged him to play it more. (I wonder if we’ll see the beginnings of Spock and Uhura’s duets this season.)

 

As for the Klingon makeup thing, I can’t understand why people who can accept Pike and Spock and Number One and Chapel and M’Benga having different faces and voices, or the equipment and uniforms and transporter effects having different details, are unable to accept the Klingons having different makeup. It’s just different artists interpreting the designs differently, the same way different actors interpret a character differently.

It did bug me, however, that the VFX team mistook the Klingon battlecruiser’s warp nacelles for cannons. Also, why did they make the planet’s rings, described in dialogue as made of ice and rock, look like they were made of dilithium (the vivid red dilithium of the modern shows as opposed to the pale pinkish quartz look it used to have)? Plus, the fake Federation ship was described in dialogue as Crossfield-class like Discovery, but it clearly wasn’t of the same design. The Secret Hideout shows have a bizarre inability to keep the VFX consistent with the scripts. But then, they’re streaming shows, so given what I’ve learned about the conditions provoking the writers’ strike, the writing staff may not be allowed to visit the set or supervise post-production, which is the sort of thing that leads to that kind of error.

I wondered if the flag officer April was talking to at the end might be Nogura, but Memory Alpha says it was Commodore Tafune. Anyway, I’m not happy with the season arc involving a potential Gorn war. We’ve had way too many war storylines in Trek by now, and SNW’s “They’re just monsters” approach to the Gorn is the worst thing about the series.

 

@7/Chase: “I’ve long been hoping that SNW would tell a story about how Kor, Kang, Koloth, and the rest of their smooth-headed brethren ended up essentially running the Empire for a decade or so.”

I see it just the opposite way — the ridged Klingons are the ones in charge, and they relegate the smooth-headed Quch’Ha to segregated ship crews on the border with the Federation. That’s how it’s been portrayed in some of the novels, including my own Rise of the Federation, though I was borrowing from John M. Ford’s “Klingon-human fusions” in the classic novel The Final Reflection, and from the Imperial Chinese policy of “use barbarians to deal with barbarians.”

After all, if you look at history, empires rarely use the ruling race or class as front-line troops. That’s what the more expendable peoples they conquer are for. That’s why Nemesis was so smart to establish that the Romulans used Remans as cannon fodder in the Dominion War. That’s how every empire should operate (and how the Dominion operates with the Vorta and Jem’Hadar), but Trek insists on misusing the word “empire” for monocultural powers.

TimW
TimW
1 year ago

I loved the fact that it is now a tradition that every crew of the Enterprise steals their ship from a spacedock. And Uhura is the only person to do it twice. Can’t count Spock as he was only there in spirit the second time.

Chase
Chase
1 year ago

@11 I do like that alternative explanation of how the smoothies fit in; in TOS we never really get a sense of how the full Empire works; individual captains acted almost like local warlords there. It also makes sense if it turns out only a small subset of the population was infected.

I was puzzled by the Crossfield reference, but it’s worth noting that a) Mitchell added “…I think” to the end of that identification, and b) it looked like the ship was sort of a Frankenstein’s monster of different ship parts and the saucer section came from a Crossfield.

Maybe Chapel was in Starfleet during the war, left because of her experience there, then returned as a civilian specialist.

jaimebabb
1 year ago

It’s also possible that the distinctive look of the Discovery and the Glenn was because they had been modified to accommodate the spore drive, and that’s what a typical Crossfield class starship generally looks like.

CharmingOldways
CharmingOldways
1 year ago

This wasn’t a very good episode. Some of the more grating dialogue problems in the first season have unsurprisingly made their return, but the overall focus of the episode seemed less like an ensemble piece intended to spotlight various characters and more like a muddled action piece shoved into prominence to get attention — and the action wasn’t very good either. While I like Carol Kane in a lot of roles in a lot of movies, I’m not sure I can handle a full season of her character, either. The episode as a whole left me moderately bored and mildly annoyed. Not awful, but I’m hoping this isn’t indicative of the rest.

As for the Klingons, I never understood the need to explain their appearance either way and wish they never had. I’d have thrown Dorn into simpler TOS makeup in “Trials and Tribble-ations” and left it at that.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@14/jaimebabb: I guess that’s plausible. Hey, were they using redressed Discovery sets for the interiors? Maybe they chose to make it Crossfield-class for that reason, like the reason DS9: “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges” was set on an Intrepid-class ship so they could borrow Voyager‘s sets.

Meanwhile, I noticed that a ship of the same type as the Archer from the premiere episode was alongside the Enterprise at spacedock, and it was much smaller than the E, helping to explain why the Archer only had three people aboard. It wasn’t clear in the premiere how big the ship was. Although it still looks like it should have a substantially larger crew than that.

Corylea
1 year ago

 I enjoyed this episode quite a lot but nowhere near as much as I enjoyed the first episode of Season 1. But then, THAT episode was so nearly perfect that it would be hard to beat. :-)

Isn’t the cast of this show just stellar? The leading man and leading lady were barely in it, and it was still beautifully acted. I’m not entirely happy about what the writers are doing with Spock, but Ethan Peck is playing what they’re writing superbly. Babs Olusanmokun was stunning in this episode, Chong, Navia, and Bush were their reliably excellent selves, and it was great fun to see Gooding reveling in being a real officer who can tell officious inspectors that it’s HER damned station, and he can just wait.

This morning I read an article about the American medical system and about how physicians are being prevented from practicing good medicine or taking good care of patients because the money people want them to cut corners in order to make bigger profits. And then I watched this episode, and the mining consortium wants to restart the war in order to make bigger profits. I would have enjoyed a bit more social commentary about how truly awful it was to put people’s lives at risk, just to make more money, but I’m glad it was there at all.

I really enjoyed hearing about M’Benga’s PTSD and watching him wrestle with it while on this mission. I’d been assuming, though, that the 23rd century must have EXTREMELY effective treatment for psychological trauma, or Jim Kirk should have been crumbling after the first year alone. Maybe that treatment is developed sometime during the next five years. :-)

I had been thinking that Spock was hesitating about blowing up the ship because of his reverence for life. Finding that he was hesitant because he’s hot for Chapel was a blow — to me and to the character. I mean, I think it’s reasonable for Spock to fall for SNW’s Chapel, who’s sooooo much cooler than TOS’s Chapel. But to risk starting a war for her … that’s not the morally exemplary Vulcan I know from TOS. Perhaps this is part of why he keeps himself under such strict control by the TOS era.

Anyway, I have a few quibbles with the episode, but it was mostly very good, and I’m thrilled that Strange New Worlds is BACK!

 

Descent
Descent
1 year ago

I thought this was a fun hour but not one that holds up to any degree of close scrutiny at all, for reasons already outlined.

The elephant in the room with this episode is of course the section where M’Benga and Chapel go bananas on drugs, which was utterly absurd. But honestly I was laughing too hard to even care. I cannot tell what reaction the writers and director expected the viewer to have on that one, whether it was meant to be intense or tragic or harrowing or what, but my reaction was waves of almost crippling laughter. Just an absolutely bizarre interlude that added nothing at all to the episode. It took me like a minute to fully process what was even happening, never seen anything quite like it, it’s as if the writers got bored with the plot and just thought “what’s the most insane way to get these two characters from the sickbay to an airlock?”

My enjoyment was enhanced by the quickfire cuts and erratic direction – there’s a part where M’Benga kicks a Klingon in the groin, but confusing and rapid pace at which everything was moving got me mixed up and I ended up thinking that it was actually M’Benga who’d just been kicked in the nuts, but the drugs were allowing him to fight on regardless despite his crushed balls, which just about pushed me over the edge into absolute hysterics.

Yeah actually that episode was a bit terrible, I suppose – they basically destroyed M’Benga’s character for the sake of an over-long action scene that I imagine almost nobody will actually enjoy, and which was part of a plot that made very little sense overall. But there’s still something at least amusing about it all that makes it fun to watch in a way that Discovery and Picard typically aren’t. Overall it seems pretty on par with much the first season – it’s not necessarily very good, but there’s something oddly likeable about it. And at least the senseless violence in this one was non-lethal (until Spock orders the destruction of the ship, at least).

flyingtoastr
flyingtoastr
1 year ago

At this point, I don’t want them to bring up the smooth-foreheaded Klingons again. All the in-universe justifications have been a mess. We can all collectively chalk it up to makeup limitations from when the show was filmed the same way we all accept how CGI has changed how exterior action shots look without demanding an explanation for the dramatic decrease in maneuverability of Federation starships over the course of the 23rd century. Lampshade it for humor here and there like they did for Trials and Tribble-ations but otherwise just leave it alone.

I also still like the catchphrase thing. It makes me chuckle. It’s okay for there to be dumb, lighter moments here and there.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@19/flyingtoastr: Roddenberry’s view was that TOS had been an imperfect dramatization of Kirk’s logs and TMP was more “accurate,” and that was the only explanation he felt was needed for the change in the Klingons’ design (and the design of literally everything else in the universe, which can’t really be justified by the time jump of a few years, because change is more incremental than that). And DS9: “Blood Oath” certainly seemed to imply that Kor, Kang, and Koloth had always had ridges. The only reason the change was ever acknowledged was because they decided to reuse stock footage in “Trials” and had to lampshade the difference.

Still, I was disappointed that Discovery didn’t take the opportunity to give each of the Klingon Houses a different makeup. They could’ve opened with a sequence of T’Kuvma talking to a group that included DSC-style Klingons, TOS-style, TMP-style, TSFS-style, Michael Westmore style, Richard Snell-style (from TVH-TUC), and Kelvin-style, all in the same scene, and it would’ve resolved so many arguments (while undoubtedly creating others). Like how the Twelfth Doctor’s Dalek and Cyberman stories in Doctor Who featured multiple classic Dalek and Cyberman designs appearing together with the modern ones.

LadyBelaine
1 year ago

At this point, the Klingon “levels of ridginess” is so convoluted I am just prepared to chalk them up to extreme ethnographic features that have something to do with the extreme terrains/climates on the Klingon home world. Since the Klingon body has evolved extreme redundancies, like maybe an extra-body/ridged cranium was evolved in reaction to some environmental stressor on part of the Klingon planet – like a high-altitude plateau that exposed them to more cosmic ookiness so the skulls overdeveloped to compensate to protect the brain.  Or something.   Or at times, in their savage history, extreme cranial plating was sexually desirable and developed as a mating inducement. 

(Star Trek Picard neatly summarized and tucked away the Romulan face-forehead chevron only on some Romulan was something found .. vaguely, on ‘Northerners.’ I am mollified with that)

David Pirtle
David Pirtle
1 year ago

I thought this episode was alright but I share your opinion about M’Benga and Chapel getting doped up and fighting a boatload of Klingons. It was easily the dullest bit of the show. I did really enjoy the character of the new engineer, though it seems a little odd to create another species of human lookalikes with super-long lifespans who were living among us like Guinan. I was also not thrilled by the teasing of a possible war with the Gorn, since they were portrayed so ridiculously in the previous season. I was kind of hoping the show would move on and we wouldn’t see them again.

David Pirtle
David Pirtle
1 year ago

Also, since everybody’s talking about the Klingon makeup, I would like to say that I don’t care and it seems silly to get worked up over it. Obviously different shows and films at different times are going to have differing takes on makeup

minouris
1 year ago

Regarding Lanthanites, if they’ve been on Earth all that time, and if they’re all like Pallia, then I’m willing to bet that Humans have had assorted other names for them for a good many centuries. She must find Spock’s ears very amusing :)

@3 – Second time this week for me, after seeing the “GNU Terry Pratchett” at the end of “Amazing Maurice” a couple of nights ago…

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@21/LadyBelaine: I’ve long thought the best way to deal with the “Klingon forehead issue” would be to have revealed that “Klingon” is not the name of a species, but the name of a civilization with members from multiple species, or perhaps the name of the religious community based on Kahless’s teachings. Star Trek, like a lot of sci-fi, has far too great a tendency to equate species with identity, which is way too simplistic. It would be great to see a cultural identity that wasn’t based on genetics.

 

@22/David Pirtle: I’m not looking forward to more of this show’s take on the Gorn either, but after rewatching “All Those Who Wander” yesterday, I’m taking solace in the line about the Gorn being “genetic chameleons.” That implies that the species takes multiple different forms, which might be quite different in behavior as well as anatomy. This idea was already used in one of the novels, Typhon Pact: Seize the Fire by Michael A. Martin, which posited that the TOS rubber-suit Gorn and the ENT CGI Gorn were two different engineered subspecies. So whatever problematical monster-movie stuff the show does with the Gorn, I can just assume they’re a distinct offshoot of the species from the one in “Arena.”

About M’Benga and Chapel fighting Klingons, one other problem I had with it is that Klingons are supposed to be much stronger and more durable than humans. Even doped up on some kind of performance enhancer, I can’t believe two humans would have the physical strength to outfight that many Klingons.

(For a moment there, when the scene went into slow motion, I thought the stuff in the vial was going to turn out to be Scalosian water and M’Benga and Chapel were going to escape at superspeed. Except I forgot that Chapel was in “Wink of an Eye,” so the usual “It was classified so nobody knew about it years later” excuse wouldn’t work.)

i_am_angharad
1 year ago

I actually quite liked this episode. I never assumed that Una’s trial was going to be resolved in the first episode of this season, so I wasn’t particularly disappointed to see Pike go on a lawyer-finding trip and leave the secondary cast to really shine.

I think this is an episode that needed to happen; how could you possibly run a show set in the aftermath of a brutal war without acknowledging the effect that war has had on the world and the characters? I think the storyline would have been better paced over two episodes, perhaps interspersed with Pike’s Lawyer Search, but Ortegas’ quips about knowing how to hide from Klingons and Chapel/M’Benga’s scenes are a harrowing reminder that they have all gone through some truly traumatic experience– and are still actively choosing to seek out exploration, peace, and justice. Hopeful, if not utopian.

Controversially, I liked Spock’s incredibly dorky Warp Call. I think it’s charming to watch this younger, eminently less experienced, much less confident, much– in some, but not all, ways– less capable Spock grow as a person and as a commander. He reads as quite young, really, which I’m glad of– I know I was worried that any canonical Trek with a younger Spock would be too enamored with the character and mythos of Mr. Spock to do the brave thing and write an actually interesting character rather than Mr. Spock in a Young Vulcan Box. And since the Vulcan struggle with emotion is one of the most prominent recurring themes in Star Trek, I have quite liked Spock’s arc over the past few episodes.

Also controversially, I liked the Chapel/M’Benga fight scenes, and even the drugs. I take some umbrage with the idea that this episode is asserting that doctors aren’t cool enough characters unless they’re also fighters; Chapel and M’Benga are both clearly unsettled and disturbed by what they perceive as the necessity of taking the drugs, and M’Benga is practically a sandwich bag of trauma during the whole thing; I don’t think they want to relive their front-line experiences of the Klingon War, or think it’s glorious, and both of them had plenty of pure medical-badassery scenes in S1. Also, I don’t think we’ve seen either of them fight, ever, before this; to me, it reads like the tragedy of two people who thought they were done with something horrible and traumatic, and that they could return wholly to medicine, only to be put in a situation where they could die or re-invoke the horrors of their pasts. For M’Benga to respond so violently and cruelly to the reminders of his trauma (Klingons) while under the inhibition-lowering effects of a drug (the torture scene) is reasonable, if terrible to watch; I’m imagining that the Klingon in question was probably already a dishonored warrior, given his relinquishing of the information.

What I really want to know is, what event– or series of events– left M’Benga and Chapel together during the War, in sufficiently dire straits that they felt like they had to concoct illegal performance enhancing drugs to survive? Stranded behind enemy lines, perhaps– especially if they were involved with/treating ground battles? I hope the season treats their experiences during the war, and their recovery, with respect and nuance.

@11/ChristopherLBennet , re: Chapel– yes, she is on civilian exchange from the Stanford Morehouse Epigenetics Project– but she also canonically served on the Farragut with Kirk, at least 2 years prior to SNW (she wore a Farragut pin on Remembrance Day in SNW season 1). My best guess for her timeline is Farragut –> Klingon War chaotic frontline field medicine where she met and worked closely with M’Benga –> took an educational fellowship after the war ended, suspending/resigning her commission –> M’Benga offered her a job as a nurse when he was appointed CMO and she accepted, but didn’t want to reactivate her commission.

 

jaimebabb
1 year ago

@18/Descent –

“they basically destroyed M’Benga’s character for the sake of an over-long action scene that I imagine almost nobody will actually enjoy, and which was part of a plot that made very little sense overall”

Honestly, I’ve found it difficult to like M’Benga ever since he risked everyone’s life by not allowing a diagnostic on the medical transporter in that plague episode in the first season. Speaking of which, why didn’t they beam M’Benga and Chapel directly to sickbay?

Bobby Nash
Bobby Nash
1 year ago

I enjoyed the episode. I got a chuckle out of April telling Spock that there better not be a next time because, well, I have seen the future.  :)

Bobby

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@16 – I was glad to see how much smaller the Archer type ship was.  However, that doesn’t explain, like you said, why it only had a few of three and why a first contact team consisted of a command office and two astrophysicists. You’d think there’s be a whole range of science types on board.

 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@26/i_am_angharad: My comment about the perceived “coolness” of making them fighters is not about whether the characters like what they had to do, but whether the writers thought it would be cool to have the show’s two caregivers randomly turn into John Wick, rather than coming up with something more organic to deepen their characters. Resorting to violence as a source of plot and character, whether it’s war stories or torture stories or whatever, is a cheap, vastly overused device, and these writers have shown themselves capable of better. And pretty much every review I’ve read called out the fight sequence as ridiculous and a low point of the episode.

At least, if they wanted to explore how characters are affected by past trauma, that’s what La’an is already there for, so there was no need to foist that kind of an arc on M’Benga, or particularly on Chapel, who already had plenty going for her as a character without piling this on. Or they could’ve given the story to Ortegas, who’s badly lacking character development, and whose inexplicable transformation into Lt. Stiles in “A Quality of Mercy” might be a bit more explicable if we knew she was embittered by wartime experiences.

i_am_angharad
1 year ago

@30/ChristoperLBennett — fair point regarding the writers– my apologies. I’m not convinced this is a bad or lazy authorial decision— but I suppose I’ll see how my opinions evolve as the season is released!

Sabrina Duncan
Sabrina Duncan
1 year ago

@3″ except giving Klingons ridges was an even more gratuitous and pointless (and much harder to explain) change in 1979 than the comparatively minor makeup redesign Discovery gave them in 2017.”

My complaint with the DISCOVERY re-design is simply based on the fact that the actors had a hard time conveying emotion under all that makeup. The design on NEXT GEN was a lot easier on the actors.

AndyLove
1 year ago

I wonder if Flint is another of Pelia’s species 

Descent
Descent
1 year ago

M’Benga and Chapel being portrayed as two people traumatised by war who find themselves in the unimaginable horror of having to once again resort to violence is one thing, but having them do it by taking super-rage juice and running down a corridor kicking people in the crotch is another thing entirely.

I doubt the writers’ motives simply because M’Benga’s torture of the Klingon works. He gets accurate information by beating the guy unconscious – in other words, the writers vindicate him. Chapel’s only objection is that M’Benga is beating him a bit too forcefully, not that he’s torturing him in the first place. The viewer clearly isn’t meant to cheer M’Benga on or anything, but we’re also not really supposed to condemn him – his use of torture works, and the matter isn’t commented on again, and the only negative reaction I think we’re meant to have is that M’Benga might have taken it a bit far (which we’re meant to view sympathetically). Even when the drugs wear off and the danger has passed, neither M’Benga nor Chapel appear to care about what transpired.

Combine that with the finale in which the writers have the heroes destroy the enemy ship with all hands lost and then follow that immediately with a lighthearted scene of Spock drinking bloodwine and going “ha-haaa”, and I don’t believe the writers really wanted to meditate on the horror of violence and war at all. I’d agree with ChristopherLBennett’s initial assessment that the writers thought M’Benga and Chapel going berserk would be cool and an easy way to insert some action into the episode, with the added “cool” factor that the generally-pacifistic M’Benga is the one dealing out the damage.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

Incidentally, I realized something today that I’ll never be able to unsee: Ethan Peck’s Spock bangs are a fake hairpiece stuck onto his real hair. Whaa? Leonard Nimoy spent three years with most of his eyebrows shaved off so he could be made up as Spock. How hard can it be to get your hair cut with bangs?

Sabrina Duncan
Sabrina Duncan
1 year ago

@@@@@ 11

Yeah, the failure of the show to actually depict the Klingons as an empire has always annoyed me. Kirk, in “Errand of Mercy,” talks about how the Klingons have  subjugated entire planets, reducing them to “vast slave labor camps,” but nothing has really been done with that notion in terms of TREK movies and TV. Are all subject peoples treated with equal severity? Perhaps some, having proved reliable, are granted certain limited freedoms? And then there’s the nature of the Klingon Empire during NEXT GEN. What is the status of those planets during NEXT GEN? Have they been freed? Granted a degree of  autonomy within the Klingon Empire? Have some of them been completely assimilated into “mainstream” Klingon society?

noblehunter
1 year ago

I liked the parts that worked, even if this wasn’t a very Star Trek-ish type episode. Stealing the Enterprise makes me wonder how Starfleet is a functional organization if Spock’s first response to being told “no” is grand theft starship and then the Admiralty lets him get away with it. It worked for me because I kind of like the idea of an organization chaotic enough that stealing the flagship is an acceptable problem solving technique.

Another thing about the corridor fight scene is that their magic combat juice wouldn’t help very much if they didn’t know how to fight. I would have much preferred a more subtle way of getting to a communicator and the airlock.

@17 I’d attribute Spock’s hesitation to his emotional regulation problem more than any specific feeling for Chapel.

 

Brian
Brian
1 year ago

Per M’Benga and Chapel fight scenes… I should point out that by Picard’s time, the TNG and DS9 crews had no trouble clocking full blooded, ridged Klingons… maybe Kirk-Fu had improved in the last century….

Bear Weinman
Bear Weinman
1 year ago

I don’t expect the trial next week, maybe the week after. Next week will be Pike’s adventure while Spock was in command of the Enterprise. Like finding the lawyer, which will no doubt have some drama and action involved. 

jaimebabb
1 year ago

By this point, Starfleet must have allowances for its officers to steal starships written into its regulations

jaimebabb
1 year ago

@36/ Sabrina Duncan – We know that there must be at least one planet (Krios) still under Klingon military occupation by the mid-24th century, because we saw it in TNG “The Mind’s Eye.” Although, due to a slip-up in the writing of “The Perfect Mate”, the Klingons apparently allowed the Kriosians to continue a centuries long war with Vault Minor, even after their conquest. Hmm.

twels
1 year ago

This one was … OK. I liked the more emotional Spock and the continuation of the evident reconfiguring of the relationship between him and Chapel. It was great to see the Klingons again and to see that the war in Discovery had lingering effects on those who fought it – including a doctor willing to resort to torture after experiencing a battle so bloody it turned the air red. But ultimately, it just felt really inconsequential. And I’ll take the inconsequential of an episode like this over the flat-out bad of something like Picard Season Two any day 

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@40 – I think the story would have worked better without the cliche of stealing the ship.  Pike goes lawyer hunting, Spock is still left in command but instead of taking the Enterprise, a small group goes in covertly.  There would need to be a way do destroy the fake Federation ship and convince the Klingons that it was a false flag but I think it would have made more sense.

The really stupid part was April saying that Spock’s punishment would be a bloodline hangover.  Really?  Does anybody get punished for stealing something that has the power to destroy an entire civilization?  Just how many times has someone absconded with a Starfleet ship with virtually no ramifications?  Four?  Five?

@20 & 21 – Totally agree that it was a lost opportunity in Discovery to show a gathering of the Klingon clans with each one being slightly different from each that.  The TOS types, the TMP with the extended spine look, TNG’s ridges and a few new ones.  With the Klingon mindset, it would be easy to imagine that each group sticks mainly with their own type and a meeting such as we saw at the beginning of Discovery being something almost unheard of.

Slagar
1 year ago

@11/ChristopherLBennett: I believe the D7 having weapons on the engine nacelles is actually a call back to their original appearance in TOS where they did, in fact, shoot out of their nacelles: comment image. I thought it was a great bit of obscure, technical continuity. :)

Tim Kaiser
Tim Kaiser
1 year ago

I really enjoyed this episode. I’m glad that SNW is keeping up the quality of season 1.

Narratively it makes the most sense to continue the cliffhanger from the end of season 1, but the reason they went with a more generalized story like this is because this TV show is a commercial venture that they need to get ratings. So they wanted to start the season off with a broad, adventure style story rather than a courtroom drama. I watched Wil Wheaton’s The Ready Room pre-season 2 episode and multiple times they stated that this series is episodic and you don’t need previous Star Trek knowledge and it’s a great place for Trek newcomers to start to watch. So why would they start with a talk-heavy court drama that is reliant on knowing what happened in the previous season? 

Likes:

– How did they get such a great cast together and give them such good chemistry in such a short time? I love all the characters. And I enjoy the ensemble feel of the show.

– Classic Klingon makeup is back. I hope they retcon out the whole Klingon augment virus nonsense and don’t mention anything about the changing appearance of the Klingons ever again. The Klingons have always been Klingons, regardless of whether they have the TOS makeup, the TOS movie/TNG makeup or the Discovery makeup.

Nitpicks:

– I agree with everyone that the gratuitous action was boring.

– The meta aspect of every captain having their own warp catchphrase. I believe this only started in Discovery due to the fact that they had a different captain every season. I don’t mind that every captain has their own catch phrase but it’s cringe that this is a meta thing that all the characters in-universe are aware of and make a big deal about. 

Overall a solid episode

MikeKelm
1 year ago

I figured that the green goblin juice that M’Benga/Chapel had was something of their design (she is a genetic researcher if I remember correctly) and therefore not standard issue.  “Space meth” may not be quite the right description- maybe more of super soldier serum albeit temporary.  I imagine as a response to some past trauma we’ll discover in a future episode.  I kind of like that multiple characters are “damaged” because it allows us to see how they respond differently. L’haan responds her way, Chapel and M’Benga theirs and so on.   One thing that always bothered me about previous shows is that due to the style at the time that characters were somewhat impenetrable to long term trauma. 

My biggest problem with the fight scenes was they just weren’t good.   You can tell the director tried to cover this up with stylistic choices but while I can buy Chapel as powered up, her fight moves just looked clunky.  I can buy my healers as fighters situationally, just look good doing it

Im not sure of the pacing choice of having your top billed actors off screen in the first episode of the season and wonder if external factors were an issue.  I’m wondering if the way out for Una is going to be the demands of the service.  There was a question asked earlier by CLB of the plausibility of starfleet working considering all of its officers wandering well outside the lines and I think that it’s the same reasons-  needs of the moment.  There’s a sense from Enterprise to TOS and even into the first few seasons of TNG that the fleet isn’t that big at least compared to its adversaries.  It started “growing” in later TNG and DS9 upon realizing that it would have to be given all of the events happening in the galaxy (I remember that point being made when we rewatched the Wounded) but what if that’s actually the case especially post Klingon War.   If the Admirality has ever since NX-01 operated with the mindset of forgibing

MikeKelm
1 year ago

(Sorry cut myself off) 

the admiralty has operated with the mindset of forgiving officers who break regulations because they feel they can’t be replaced then it explains WHY our characters get so many chances.  Or less charitably they operate with a Jesuit like mindset that the ends justify the means than they’re ok with it so long as it turns out well 

Arben
1 year ago

I didn’t care for Spock’s catchphrase attempt in concept or execution, myself. The old standby of having to steal the ship is also tired and for me a tough edge to dance on in terms of realistic consequences but the story pushed my buttons properly nonetheless. Plus: Carol Kane!

“Oriana’s two moms” Do we know they’re gendered that way, KRAD? She just referred to them as her parents, I believe.

100 points to Ben @8 for “Emergency Punching Juice”… M’Benga and Chapel surely had combat training to execute fight maneuvers like that, as opposed to the serum not only enhancing agility, strength, and reaction time but also conferring a magic Chuck-style cognitive download. Both characters seem to have a haunted air lingering about them, even accounting for what M’Benga went through with his daughter, and learning that it may be carryover from the Klingon war makes sense especially given their status as healers in terms of what they’ve seen and in certain instances what they had to do. I’m not saying I loved the narrative choices made, though.

I agree with Chase @7 that a good story could be had in exploring how the smooth-headed Klingons became a dominant force, despite not being insistent on an explanation from a fan perspective, but CLB makes a salient point @11 and I love his idea @20 on the route Discovery could’ve taken.

While it’s hardly perfect, I’m so freaking glad this show is back. The cast interplay is great and the overall feel is just so, well, Star Trek.

lerris
1 year ago

I sincerely hope the next episode shows Pike laughing after being told about the catchphrase prank the junior officers played on Spock. Otherwise, I think the joke should have stayed on Lower Decks.

Just as I was perfectly happy when the fiction acknowledged the forehead ridges as a fourth wall breaking joke in the only episode it couldn’t be ignored.

The fight scene just felt wrong, I know they’re taking some lessons from them MCU, but that’s the wrong lesson.

Theft of Enterprise? We just saw that two episodes ago on Pcard.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@44/Slagar: I could buy the Klingons having disruptor mounts on their warp nacelles — they are Klingons, after all, and it would be the equivalent of a warrior’s armor concealing multiple weapons in the belt, boots, etc. — but the FX shot here made it look as if the D-7’s nacelles were giant cannon mounts instead of warp engines, like the Klingon Bird-of-Prey.

 

@45/Tim Kaiser: “I hope they retcon out the whole Klingon augment virus nonsense and don’t mention anything about the changing appearance of the Klingons ever again.”

They don’t have to retcon it out, they just have to avoid mentioning it. ENT established, as Keith said, that only a small percentage of the Klingon population lost their ridges, so implicitly the ridged ones were always there during TOS/TAS even though we never saw them there, and the smooth ones were still there after TOS/TAS even though we never saw them again. Similarly, PIC established the two different kinds of Romulans as “Northern” and “Southern” even though we saw exclusively “Southerners” in TOS and exclusively “Northerners” in the TNG era. So something can go unseen while still implicitly existing elsewhere in the universe.

srEDIT
1 year ago

OP: This leads to several very long, very tiresome fight scenes, which are pretty much there to give us some Action! Scenes! yet which wind up being the most boring part of the hour.

As I sat watching these long, boring, and as far as I could tell, useless fight scenes, my suspension of disbelief disappeared somewhere and all I could think was “I wonder what KRAD will have to say about this?”

@11: And it made no sense to put in a comic-relief sidebar in this particular situation where going to warp was a matter of immediate urgency.

Unlike many others, I’ve enjoyed this bit of fun. However, as CLB said, I sat there thinking “What are you doing? You’ve gotta go!”

doctoroctothorpe
1 year ago

Clearly Pelia is Simka from Taxi.  That’s how long she’s been alive.  This will be revealed when the ship goes to yellow alert and she tells everyone to slow down.

Yeah, the fight scenes dragged on.  Nice episode – and a zig zag from expectations that we’d immediately resolve whatever is going to happen with Una.

MikeKelm
1 year ago

@51 I agree with you on the fun bit with the catchphrase..  I saw it as a sort of gallows humor.  We’re going into an unknown situation to rescue a friend and the FNG is in the chair, lets make a joke.  Besides it’s in line with Ortega who is a joker to try to diffuse the situation.  Yeah it’s kind of a dumb trope, but I’m okay with a few of those.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@53/MikeKelm: Even if you can defend the joke, it’s hard to defend doing it at that particular moment, when they were fleeing from Starfleet and answering an urgent distress call where time was of the essence. Having them stop everything in the middle of that for this long digression into catchphrases was terrible timing and ruined the suspense and urgency of the escape sequence. It’s not good comedy without good timing.

Hal
Hal
1 year ago

#52 – Hahaha. Nice one. “Whaaat doooes yellooow aleeeert mean?!”

fullyfunctional
1 year ago

Count me among those who like the catchphrase gimmick, and someone else described Spock’s delivery as dorky, which fits, because this is the younger, less self-assured, dorky Spock, and that totally works for me.

Co-sign on the tiresome fight scenes. It took so long and was so repetitively boring I actually had time to look up this recap and start reading it before they were done. Also have to agree that I don’t like the concept of having the two healers on board being the ones who lay waste to a couple dozen Klingons and resort to torture, successfully. Supremely annoying. And I still say M’Benga’s character should be subtitled by default. That raspy delivery makes me have to rewind half the time he says anything. 

Seems like every iteration of Trek now has to have the quirky funny eccentric. That said, I’m down with it, because If it’s Carol Kane, I’m going to enjoy it regardless.

Did I actually hear Ortega say “pedal to the metal”? Gotta love a callback to Galaxy Quest which is a callback to Trek, lol

And finally I’ll also jump on the bandwagon of those who think it’s absolutely ridiculous that Spock gets no consequence at all for using the first few moments of his command to steal a starship in direct contravention of explicit instructions by a superior who looked him in the eye when he told him Enterprise would not be responding to that distress call. Think about all the ways that could have gone wrong, although of course we knew it wouldn’t. The patron saint of rogue captains is always the screenwriter.

And just once instead of the magnanimous gesture to offer to allow anyone to refuse, I’d like to see a Star Trek Captain say these are my orders and this is what we’re doing. If you don’t like it you can State your objection, but, man your post.

Corylea
1 year ago

#35, :  When Leonard Nimoy wore the Spock haircut all year round, TOS was making anywhere from 26 to 29 episodes a year, so he was only NOT Spock for a couple of months during the summer, and he didn’t need to find any other jobs.  Given that SNW is only making ten episodes at a time and that there was no guarantee that there’d be another set made anytime soon (as indeed there won’t be, because of the writer’s strike), I can see where Peck might not want to commit to a hairstyle that could impair his ability to land other roles in other productions.  Given what Peck is saying in interviews and how well he’s performing the role, I don’t doubt his commitment to the character.

#37, :  Spock explicitly says, “I waited for you” to Chapel.  I wasn’t reading anything into that scene, because he says it explicitly.

 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@57/fullyfunctional: “Did I actually hear Ortega say “pedal to the metal”? Gotta love a callback to Galaxy Quest which is a callback to Trek, lol”

Huh? No, that’s truckers’ CB-radio slang from the early 1970s, referring to driving at top speed (with the gas pedal pushed all the way to the metal floor).

 

@58/Corylea: I don’t see how having bangs could impair one’s ability to get a job, since you can just comb them back and use some hairspray or gel to change their look, and it wouldn’t take that long for them to grow out a bit more. And the fake bangs on Peck just do not look convincing or particularly good.

fullyfunctional
1 year ago

Quoting CLB: “Huh? No, that’s truckers’ CB-radio slang from the early 1970s, referring to driving at top speed (with the gas pedal pushed all the way to the metal floor).”

Yes, I knew that, lol. It was also a rather prominent catchphrase for Tommy Webber, the child prodigy helmsman in Galaxy Quest, so much so They sell t-shirts celebrating it.  In this context, no way was that not a callback

Hal
Hal
1 year ago

I’m not a fan of the catchphrase thing because it’s another example of new Trek seemingly trying very hard to inject our 21st century humor and language into its future world. A bit of that once in a while is fine, I guess, but when they go about it this way it pushes me out of the universe.

Something that originally attracted me to Star Trek was its appreciation for the sheer size of things, not just with space but also time. You know, there was the novelty of hearing future people talking about our present like it was ancient history. Also, it was kind of fun seeing some advanced, evolved person who knows all about warp drive being confused by our vernacular. “Leak? I’m not detecting any leaks.”

To my ear, now it sounds like they’re trying to appeal to younger audiences to a Poochie sized degree. I’m just thankful TNG and DS9 didn’t try to make Wesley Crusher and Jake Sisko try to sound like Bart Simpson or the Fresh Prince. Or some made-up future slang. Ugh.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

During the catchphrase sequence I was reminded of the sequence in ST09 when Uhura stopped Spock to berate him about not getting the assignment she wanted as well as the bit in STID when she thought the perfect time to discuss their relationship was just as they were about to land on the Klingon homeworld.  Specifically my thought was “Do you REALLY think that this is the best time for this?”  In this case, they’re supposed to be convincing the ship is supposed to go boom.  Instead they just hang next to the starbase while Spock comes up with a stupid catchphrase. 

This bit from The Galileo Seven also came to mind during this episode.

MCCOY: Well, Mister Spock, so ends your first command. 

SPOCK: Yes. My first command.

It would be fine if McCoy called it Spock’s first command. He wasn’t there. However Spock agreed with him. Does commanding the ship while the Captain is away not count as being in command

 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@60/fullyfunctional: “It was also a rather prominent catchphrase for Tommy Webber, the child prodigy helmsman in Galaxy Quest”

And it is natural enough that two different helm officers — two different “drivers” — could both make the same reference to commonplace drivers’ slang without it being a direct reference from one to the other. Correlation does not imply causation, especially when the correlation has another obvious explanation. I’m sure you could find plenty of other examples in fiction, both before and after Galaxy Quest, of spaceship pilots saying “pedal to the metal.” It’s hardly a rare expression.

 

@62/kkozoriz: The show is clearly ignoring that line from “Galileo” about Spock’s first command, just like “Memento Mori” last season ignored the line from “Dagger of the Mind” about Spock never having mind-melded with a human before. In both cases, I don’t mind the retcon, because it’s implausible that Spock could’ve served in Starfleet for 13 years before TOS without ever being in those situations. It’s the prerogative of fiction to refine its continuity over time rather than being slavishly bound to early details (which is why we don’t still talk about James R. Kirk, lithium crystals, and Vulcanians), and this is a refinement that makes more sense than the initial claims. Particularly since it would be far too limiting to the writers if they forbade Spock from mind-melding or being in command.

twels
1 year ago

@64 said: “Particularly since it would be far too limiting to the writers if they forbade Spock from mind-melding or being in command.”

The line about being Spock’s first command ignores the fact that he takes command of the Enterprise in “The Cage” (calling himself “the acting captain”) and orders the ship to leave orbit around Talos IV after Pike and Number One go missing. That definitely pre-dates both “The Galileo Seven” and this episode 

nms72
1 year ago

Some thoughts:

The whole catchphrase thing made sense for Saru because Saru is an overthinker who, of course, would worry about “engage” vs. “manifest” vs. whatever. I don’t think it really works anywhere else or with anyone else.

I’m not even sure why we needed to see another scene of someone commandeering Enterprise. We know nothing will come of it first because Spock is in Starfleet (off and on) for decades after this. But also because it felt like such a casual affair. We do get a pretty great intro to Pelia out of it–her let’s-steal-a-starship energy was fantastic.

Count me in as not being a fan of our healers getting hopped up on fighty-fighty juice.

I did appreciate, however, that it looks like Starfleet prisoners get to readily communicate with the outside world.

fullyfunctional
1 year ago

@64. Correlation may not prove causation but it definitely implies it.  And if you look at the angle from which that scene was shot and the manner in which Ortegas delivers the line, it’s nearly a frame by frame reference to Galaxy Quest. It was already an outdated goofy phrase by the time it was used in Galaxy Quest which is precisely why they used it in that movie. It sounded silly coming out of Ortegas’s mouth, which is why the reference was so noticeable.  And I’m not the only one who noticed. 

“And ‘pedal to the metal’ — now trek is having to pinch from GALAXY QUEST, where at least the moron vernacular is directly attributable to being from a crummy tv show of the 1980s.”

https://trekmovie.com/2023/06/15/recap-review-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-swings-back-into-action-in-the-broken-circle/

 

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@64 – Or time travel or cloaking devices or tribbles or Gorn or or the mirror universe or silicon based life such as the virus on Ent (if you can have a silicon based virus it’s at least likely that there’s other life based on silicon as well.). And many more.  TOS didn’t have nearly as many firsts as we’ve thought.

It’ll be interesting to see SNW tie itself into knots in order for Kirk to meet pretty much the entoire crew (most likely) but not Pike.

One of my head canons is that every time someone time travels to the past, there’s a change when they return to their present.  Sometimes it’s noticeable to the audience (James T as opposed to James R), sometimes it’s not.  Gabriel Bell suddenly looking exactly like Benjamin Sisko.  It’s not a case of a different actor playing the same character.  It literally changed o Nog’s PADD.

 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@67/fullyfunctional: “Correlation may not prove causation but it definitely implies it.”

Not when it’s a reference to something so commonplace. Even if it’s possible, that doesn’t make it the only possibility. One should always be open to every possibility and wait for actual evidence before favoring one over the others.

 

“It was already an outdated goofy phrase by the time it was used in Galaxy Quest which is precisely why they used it in that movie.”

No, they used it in Galaxy Quest because the in-universe GQ series premiered in 1979, at which point the CB/trucker culture in which it originated was at its peak of popularity.

 

“And I’m not the only one who noticed.”

Just because more than one person believes something doesn’t make it true. For instance, everyone believes that Galaxy Quest is exclusively a Star Trek parody, but the in-universe series is far closer in its characters and details to Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (even premiering in the same year), and also draws heavily on elements of Irwin Allen shows, Space: 1999, and the like. It’s an homage to vintage SFTV in general, with Trek being just a sizeable part of a more diverse mix, but since the other shows in the mix have been largely forgotten, people assume Trek is the only target. Which just underlines how unwise it is to assume things.

I’ll believe it’s a GQ reference if someone actually involved with the creation of the episode confirms that it’s a GQ reference. Nobody else actually knows, so their opinions and assumptions are of no importance.

 

@68/kkozoriz: As for the Gorn, I realized there’s a part in “Arena” where McCoy identifies the alien on the viewscreen as a Gorn despite never having heard the Metron call it that. So that implies the existence of the Gorn was known before the episode.

Anyway, I wouldn’t be surprised if Kirk and Pike did meet, for the same reason I’m not surprised they gave Spock a command and let him meld with La’an. Canon is about broad strokes; details are always subject to revision.

Arben
1 year ago

I didn’t think of Galaxy Quest when Ortegas said “pedal to the metal” — just American slang. Then again, I haven’t seen the movie but once years ago.

On Carol Kane’s Pelia actually being Simcha from Taxi, I wonder if her husband will show up and this is when Andy Kaufman finally returns.

rm
rm
1 year ago

I’m pretty sure Lanthanites are vampires — not blood-suckers in-story, but very long-lived aliens with Eastern European accents who are meant to be the basis for vampire legends. Which is silly, but it reminds me of Spock in TOS quoting Sherlock Holmes as “one of my ancestors.” A little metafictional intertextuality can be fun. 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@71/rm: I saw a quote from Carol Kane that Pelia’s accent is meant to be non-specific, a hodgepodge of various things to suggest that she’s lived all over.

Also, one can assume that when Spock said “one of my ancestors,” he meant Arthur Conan Doyle, not Sherlock Holmes.

M
M
1 year ago

Our healers became John Wick with special green goo. Then, they eagerly beat the crap out of someone to get information. The writers really think this is what Trek fans want the heroes to do?

Is this the worst scene in modern Trek? 

Sure, it’s not as “important” as canon violations or memberberries, though.

I really hope this is just a blip on the radar. 

jaimebabb
1 year ago

@73/M

Our healers became John Wick with special green goo. Then, they eagerly beat the crap out of someone to get information. The writers really think this is what Trek fans want the heroes to do?

Is this the worst scene in modern Trek? 

Sure, it’s not as “important” as canon violations or memberberries, though.

I really hope this is just a blip on the radar. 

It was a problem that I noticed in the last season of Picard as well. I think that the most charitable interpretation is that the writers are just reproducing “cool” things that they’ve seen in action movies without ever stopping to think about what that behaviour would say about their characters in the real world. Even so, I really wish that they would stop.

Antipodeanaut
Antipodeanaut
1 year ago

So Pelia the new Lanthanite … Is this a character creation/royalties thing? Because using an El-Aurian might mean they have to pay residuals? 

That might make sense. 

I’m surprised how many people didn’t get the memo “1st EP Action Adventure, 2nd EP Courtroom Drama”. And every second person seems to have had screeners/first 6 EPs. There are no secrets anymore 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@75/Antipodenaut: “So Pelia the new Lanthanite … Is this a character creation/royalties thing? Because using an El-Aurian might mean they have to pay residuals?”

No, that’s not how it works. That applies to individual characters, not species. Enterprise changed T’Pau to T’Pol to avoid having to pay Theodore Sturgeon’s estate, but they were still able to make her a Vulcan without having to pay anyone.

Besides, El-Aurians aren’t a species you can attribute to a single creator, since they weren’t even given a name until six years after Guinan was introduced, and due to vagaries of scheduling, the name that was created for Generations actually made its screen debut in DS9: “Rivals.”

Also, El-Aurians hardly have a monopoly on the “virtually immortal humanoid alien” market. And they’re different from El-Aurians in that apparently a whole community of them lived among humans for centuries, whereas Guinan was the only one of her kind on Earth and only spent a finite amount of time here on her travels (though Picard season 2 retconned it as more than a century longer than “Time’s Arrow” had implied).

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

Incidentally, the Lanthanites’ name is extremely on-the-nose even for Trek aliens, since it comes from the Greek lanthanein, “to lie hidden.” (See also the lanthanides, aka the rare-earth elements from lanthanum to lutetium, named because of their scarcity and the difficulty of discovering and extracting them.)  Maybe it’s not their real species name, but just a demonym they adopted for themselves as they lived in hiding on Earth? I sincerely hope so.

jaimebabb
1 year ago

I’m not sure that the Lanthanites are meant to be an alien species rather than just a small group of otherwise-human mutants who happen to have extreme longevity, like Flint or the characters in Poul Anderson’s The Boat of a Million Years.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@79/jaime: No, I’m fairly certain they said they’re aliens who were hidden among humans. Trek wouldn’t use a name like “Lanthanite” for a human subpopulation, only for an alien species, because Trek is extremely and frustratingly rigid about equating identity with biology. Also, if immortal humans were a thing that had been known since the 22nd century, the TOS crew wouldn’t have been so startled by Flint’s immortality.

Incidentally, if the first Lanthanites revealed themselves in the 22nd century, but Amanda Grayson was one of the first humans Pelia outed herself to, then how does the timing for that work out? If we assume Amanda was in her 30s when Spock was born in 2230, she would’ve had to be born in the last decade of the 22nd century. So did Pelia reveal herself to Amanda when the latter was a small child, or did she stay in the closet longer than others of her people? And what does that imply if she was reluctant to reveal herself to humanity? Were the Lanthanites subject to prejudice when they first came out? Hmm, I suppose there could’ve been some lingering anti-alien sentiment and Terra Prime sympathizers in the wake of the Xindi and the Romulans.

jaimebabb
1 year ago

@80/CLB – I just rewatched the scene and Spock’s precise wording is “…that you managed to live on Earth among other humans undetected until the 22nd century,” implying that the Lanthanites are themselves human. Presumably they gave themselves that name precisely because they kept hidden.

I agree that this creates a bit of a continuity snarl with Flint, but Flint was over 6,000 years old, if I recall correctly. That could be an order of magnitude older than even the Lanthanites get.

Eduardo S H Jencarelli

I get what the episode was going for. Trying to explore and expand on M’Benga and Chapel’s backstories by touching in an aspect of Trek that hasn’t really been dealt with since late DS9: doctors having to perform their jobs in the frontlines of war, indirectly becoming soldiers themselves. But given the episode’s own focus on Spock and his own story about dealing with the pressures of command for the first time, it never quite deals with that soldier doctor theme as well as it should. The end result is a rather dull and repetitive action set piece with M’Benga and Chapel kicking Klingon butt after that super serum of sorts. This is certainly not on the same level as “Nor the Battle to the Strong” or “Siege of ARR-558”.

But the episode makes up for it somewhat with some excellent little character moments, especially the Uhura stuff (and loved the tribute to Nichelle Nichols at the very end). And for the most part, the episode nails Spock’s side of the story. The way Peck conveys the emotional struggle within lights up every scene, even if the Chapel side of it never quite rises up to the occasion to justify his reaction.

One thing I really enjoyed was the method to steal Enterprise away from spacedock. I’m pretty certain Alonso Myers and the writers were rewatching old Trek episodes. Simulating a warp core breach is exactly what the Bynars did on “11001001”.

Also, depending on how next season goes, Strange New Worlds just set precedent in emulating TOS by kicking the season off with a (mostly) Spock-centric episode. I for one wasn’t expecting the season opener to immediately go into Pike/Una eugenics trial resolution territory. I definitely expected the season to open with the same episodic flair it promised when it began. And I expect them to drag the Una side of thing quite a bit.

@11/Christopher: As I understand, even in the Rick Berman era, it was pretty rare for the writers to leave the writers’ room. From what I gather, Piller preferred that arrangement, given the pressure of cranking out 26 stories – leaving Berman to deal with any cast or other issues on set (that might have changed with Behr on DS9 – I’m not sure). Though I understand writers like Moore, Braga and company still ended up getting quite a bit of post production experience during their tenure on Trek since they were required to rewrite episodes to cut down on VFX requirements.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@82/Eduardo: One of the major issues behind the current writers’ strike is that the studios have torn down the system by which writer-producers were trained to rise through the ranks and eventually become showrunners by spending time on set and learning the ins and outs of production, as well as being able to consult on filming to make sure their intentions aren’t misunderstood, continuity with future episodes is accounted for, etc. This is particularly a problem in streaming TV, I gather, so it seems like it might be the case here, especially since the shows are shot in Toronto while the writers are in Hollywood (I gather). If it is the case, it would provide some explanation for why DSC & SNW’s VFX contain so many massive inconsistencies with the spoken dialogue (like a starbase depicted in Earth orbit when dialogue said it was 100 AUs from Earth, and Discovery having to search for a cloaked ship when the FX showed it staying exactly where it had been before it cloaked).

Judith
Judith
1 year ago

@46 – I’m not sure of the pacing choice of having your top billed actors off screen in the first episode of the season and wonder if external factors were an issue.

I watched an interview with the director of the episode on 7th Rule. He said Anson Mount was on paternity leave.

durandal_1707
1 year ago

@78/ChristopherLBennett — Incidentally, the Lanthanites’ name is extremely on-the-nose even for Trek aliens, since it comes from the Greek lanthanein, “to lie hidden.” (See also the lanthanides, aka the rare-earth elements from lanthanum to lutetium, named because of their scarcity and the difficulty of discovering and extracting them.)  Maybe it’s not their real species name, but just a demonym they adopted for themselves as they lived in hiding on Earth? I sincerely hope so.

Really though? This is the same franchise that made one of the major antagonists a snobby, imperial race with a superiority complex whose leaders have titles like “Praetor”, and they decided that race should be called… Romulans.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@85/durandal: That’s exactly my point. Trek has an overabundance of on-the-nose alien names already, so please, let’s stop doing that.

northman
1 year ago

“Were the Lanthanites subject to prejudice when they first came out?”

Well, the fact that they had been hiding amongst humanity for such a long time would by itself likely cause some people to be upset. Also, they don’t mention if the Lanthanites came out voluntarily or were discovered and outed by others. (Probably a lot harder to keep your identity as an alien species a secret as medical scanning technology and DNA testing progresses.) If the latter, the fact that not all of them came out at the same time makes sense.

And regarding Flint, he presumably left Earth prior to the “outing”, so even if he was a Lanthanite, he would likely have continued the ruse that he was just an unusual human to avoid outing the rest of them. Though as noted a few times already, it isn’t like Star Trek is 100% beholden to what previous series put on screen.

Also, for pure speculation, again assuming they are an alien species, if they’ve been on Earth for such a long time, what kinds of relationships did they have with humans? Were there any successful attempts at interbreeding? Would the kids also be long-lived? Did they know who each other were and have any kids within their group? What kind of population are we talking about? And where did they come from in the first place and why did they hide amongst humanity?

Eduardo S H Jencarelli

@83/Christopher: I’m well aware. Not only there’s the ‘mini-room’ problem, studios also want everything written in advance of filming. Afterwards, any writers are left in the dust without any chance to get the necessary production experience while the showrunner is left alone to deal with the intense pressure of filming and post.

Back in the Berman era, most post-production and VFX issues were dealt with by Peter Lauritson, who answered to Rick Berman. Since we know Berman was very much a micromanager (the well covered music issues, as we know), it’s easy to guess that one of the reasons the VFX from that era was so consistent is because he ran a tight ship across all the shows.

As I understand, that current supervising producer of post/VFX job is taken by Jason Zimmerman. But I imagine Alex Kurtzman as head of the franchise probably isn’t as much a micromanager of post production issues as Berman was (even though he’s an experienced TV director himself), which would go a long way in explaining the lack of consistency. That, plus studios not giving the writers any incentive to be involved on set and post, certainly reinforces that fact.

Eduardo S H Jencarelli

@83/Christopher: Also, there was Michael Okuda as graphic designer, who worked closely with VFX artists throughout that era. His only recent contribution to Trek were the last two seasons of Picard.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@88/krad: “That’s at odds with the episode itself, in which Uhura recognized Pelia’s Lanthanite accent………”

Not necessarily. It stands to reason that most Lanthanites would have similar hodgepodge accents from having lived in so many places over their lifetimes, and it may have been that extremely mixed and nonspecific quality, perhaps with some residual traces of archaic pronunciations, that Uhura recognized as a characteristic of Lanthanite accents. I mean, come on, man, it’s Uhura.

mr_d
1 year ago

I liked this episode. I also appreciate that it was an episode that was resolved in an episode.

When M’Benga produced that vial I thought they were going to tranquilize every Klingon in their way. When I realized they were injecting themselves, my brain started going haywire, “Is that something from season 1 that I forgot?” so I was rather relieved that it’s something new. I initially thought it was going to be something that heightened their senses. I think Scalosian water also crossed my mind. I was figuring they were going to sneak or go super fast so that the Klingons couldn’t catch them. I was…surprised, that they went super soldier there. I don’t think the problem was the fight as much as how long it went on. Like, the scene dragged.

I’m going to actively disagree on M’Benga torturing the Klingon. I can readily agree that torturing humans and other species is ineffective and counterproductive. But Klingons run differently. Their entire culture is based on violence and respect of strength. Negotiating with Klingons is intensely difficult. With the ascendancy of the warrior caste, Klingon culture became a culture of bullies. You can negotiate to a point, but their attitude is, “why should I negotiate with you when I can just beat you, kill you, and take what I want?” M’Benga’s assault thus wasn’t so much torture as establishing physical dominance. And he succeeded in that. After the Klingon started talking he didn’t need to attack him anymore. He started to get his balls back, but all it took was a look from M’Benga to make him back down again. Klingons respect strength. In fact, it’s all they respect. They don’t believe people who don’t display strength. They don’t like overtures of “we come in peace” or “we seek to aid you”, because to Klingons it sounds like deception. And human moralizing means even less. Case in point Captain D’Chok who made every attempt to say that Spock was lying about a false flag ship from a third party being destroyed to prevent a war. Why? Because that’s the exact thing a Klingon would’ve done. To get a Klingon’s respect you either fight him or party with him.

As for the writer’s choice of having them fight their way out of the situation instead of going the stealth route, I can’t speak to that. I don’t have a problem with medical personnel who are veterans of a bloody war having combat skills, it’s not beneath Klingons to attack a medical facility so they’d have to defend their patients. But with only thirty some odd people on that ship designed for well over a hundred, stealth or stealth attacks would seem to have been faster and more effective.

As far as the Klingon’s makeup goes, I don’t have a problem with it changing and evolving, but I have a problem with it being BAD (I’m aware that’s subjective, I’m just subjectively right on this one). I reject Signore DeCandido’s assertion that the 2017 redesign was relatively minor. If they changed nothing else in that season except saying they were a different species other than Klingons, everyone would’ve bought it. Color, texture, forehead ridges, forehead ridge differences between families, skull shape exaggerated to almost Xenomorph proportions, a radical expansion of Klingon skin tones (that’s not actually bad), Klingon ears now being embedded in the skull. A lot of that I could’ve accepted in isolation, if it wasn’t all so extreme and all at once. I maintain that Neville Page’s unused designs for the Kelvin Timeline Klingons is the pinnacle of Klingon design.

Having T’Kuvma’s meeting have every version of Klingons would have set a rather hilarious and wonderful precedent of every Star Trek era adding a new type of Klingon. Which truthfully would’ve resolved things quite nicely.

On the subject of the D7’s nacelle weapon pods, I think that the aft view is enlightening, as there is clearly an aft nacelle grill at the top of the assembly. So the very top of the nacelle is the warp coil housing, while the middle and bottom is the Disruptor housing and deployment unit. It reminds me of the information in the Haynes Guide to the Bird of Prey, which utilized the positioning of the warp wings as a mechanical means of increasing the pressure of the warp plasma to increase the power to the wingtip cannons. Having a physical dropdown cannon unit could indicate that when they’re down power isn’t going into the warp nacelle portion but instead being physically diverted to the Nacelle cannons.

Looking at Carol Kane’s Pelia I only have one response…”Can we keep her?” I knew immediately that she was talking about boredom, but her response to Spock’s assumption about the loss of loved ones was so warm and sweet it could make your heart burst. It is also a bit revealing about Spock who likely has considered that he’s going to outlive his human colleagues and friends…which for the most part he does. But I love a character who wants the adventure and the craziness. Also yes to a Pelia and Amanda reunion. Her seeing through the textbook warp core breach ploy was also hilarious after I got over the tension of them being “cold busted”.

Also, is Rong Fu gonna get promoted to main cast, I love Jenna Mitchell and her expression when Pelia broke down that weak sauce text book set up for the warp core breach reminded me of the helm on the Grissom when Saavik said Genesis had regenerated Captain Spock. Not that it was the same expression, but how much she was putting into it. It could’ve only been better if she had been leaving the bridge when Pelia said it and she started whistling on the way out.

On the subject of the engage catchphrase debate, I’m on board with it, I think that it’s simply a piece of Starfleet Culture as opposed to anything that’s supposed to be modern for us. Starfleet is an exploratory/defense agency of nerds. Kirk who is exceptionally cool and confident also has moments of emphatic social bumbling. So Starfleet having a shadow tradition of Captain’s needing their warp catchphrase and junior officers thinking about it like baby names long before they’re Captains makes sense to me. It also says something about the Captain. Kirk and Picard were very serious so they had direct and simple orders, “Ahead Warp Factor One” and later “Warp Speed”, or the very simple and official, “Engage”, though for the TNG spin offs “engage” was treated as standard. Then you have the laid back with both Pikes, “Punch it” and “Hit it”. I also appreciate that Uhura when she imitated Pike threw a lip lip curl in when she said it. Little sex appeal. Then there’s Captain Burnham’s “let’s Fly” and my “Fly” which honestly just makes sense, the ships fly. Carol Freeman’s “Warp me” is ridiculous on purpose and I have to smirk every time she says it. I see it as commanding officers just injecting a little fun into their everyday job.

As for doing it in a situation where they’re trying to hijack a starship for an unauthorized mission, that was the perfect opportunity to bring up the joke and also subvert it with Spock keeping his eye on the ball and just saying, “NOW.” And let them actually do the rest of the scene and explain it to him after they’re underway.

As for Spock getting away with it with nothing more than a Bloodwine hangover and a last time warning, I think that’s like proper application of bad ole Article 14, Section 31 of the original Starfleet Charter, that in extreme circumstances that threaten Earth/Federation Security, that Starfleet officers are given leeway to protect the Federation. Or perhaps April simply weighed the cost of Spock’s willful disobedience against the fact that he was right and because he acted the Federation was not under attack by the Klingons, who are NOT the kind of people who do deep investigations into incidents, but use any provocation to happily go to war.

jaimebabb
1 year ago

@93/Mr. D – Yeah, my first thought when they produced the vials of Green Goblin Juice(TM) was that it was a supply of that gene resequencing agent that Christine developed in the first episode, the kind that lets you temporarily pass for a member of an alien species. I figured that they would go undercover as Klingons and sneak off the ship that way; maybe not fantastic writing, but still probably better than what we got.

I don’t know, this is the first episode that doesn’t really feel ambitious in its storytelling. The plot is pretty generic; it seems like it only exists to bring La’an back, introduce Pelia, and check “Klingon encounter” off of their list of TOS episode types.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@93/mr_d: That’s an interesting analysis of Klingon power dynamics in-story, but it doesn’t make me any less sick and tired of seeing that exact same scene, of a protagonist beating someone up until they give out information, played out ad nauseam in fiction. It’s a vastly overused and tiresome device, and as I said, these writers have shown that they should be capable of better than such a cheap, nasty plot trick.

 

“So the very top of the nacelle is the warp coil housing, while the middle and bottom is the Disruptor housing and deployment unit.”

Which strikes me as a really terrible idea. It hardly seems safe to have something as volatile as a humongous cannon right next to your engines. For that matter, it hardly seems wise to have something that produces as much heat, radiation, and spatial distortion as a warp nacelle right next to your primary weapons. It seems kind of like storing gunpowder next to a furnace.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@96/krad: It’s always seemed to me that the intention of the Kelvin and DSC Klingon redesigns (both done by Neville Page) was the same as the intention behind the TMP redesign in 1979: to use advances in makeup technology to make the Klingons more strikingly alien than they had been before. Personally I think the DSC design went overboard on that front, and they dialed it back after the first season, but it was their prerogative to experiment and try new things. After all, the TMP redesign got rethought too, with the Burman Studios in TSFS replacing the single mid-forehead spine extension of TMP with the individualized bony forehead plates that have been the standard ever since.

As for the SNW Klingons, I gotta say, I don’t like the new makeup much. Sure, in principle, it returns to the now-classic Michael Westmore design, but somehow the forehead appliance looks more artificial, like they’re making it out of the wrong materials or painting it too flatly or something.

jaimebabb
1 year ago

I think that the difference between the 1979 redesign and the 2017 is Worf. It’s one thing to say that a bunch of recurring aliens looked different than what you thought; it’s another matter to sat that an iconic and popular character looked different (which is a bit ironic, given that Worf’s design changed noticeably even between the beginning and of TNG, but even so). That, presumably, is why the Vulcans, seemingly alone amongst the races of Star Trek, have gone almost 60 years without a redesign. I also think that Discovery did their Klingons no favours by making them talk in glacially slow Klingonese.

I wish we’d gotten to see more of the Kelvinverse Klingons. I liked that makeup.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@98/jaimebabb: I dunno… It seems that a trademark of the Secret Hideout shows is that they don’t really worry about being consistent in alien makeup design (or Starfleet uniform design or warp effects) from one series to another, but just let each show’s art department do its own thing. SNW uses basically the same Andorian design as DSC, but the Tellarite seen in “The Broken Circle” abandoned the tusked look of the DSC Tellarites in favor of something closer to the original TOS design, but wrinklier. And both are distinct from the way Tellarites look in Prodigy, which is distinct from Lower Decks‘ cartoon interpretation of the ENT Tellarite design. https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1670174477617963010

So DSC’s Klingons don’t imply Worf had to look like that any more than SNW’s Tellarites mean Jankom Pog has to look like that. At this point, they’re basically just straight-up telling us, “This is creativity, don’t take it so literally.”

jaimebabb
1 year ago

That’s a point now that there are multiple Trek series on the air, but not during the first season of Discovery, when there was every reason to suppose that it would be a complete aesthetic reset of the Star Trek universe, just as TMP had been. I also think that the lack of outcry over the redesign of the Tellarites kind of makes my point.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@100/jaimebabb: Sure, maybe people jumped to that conclusion in 2017, but I’m saying that we can put it in perspective now and see that whatever assumptions people had then about the redesign’s implications for Worf or whatever proved to be unfounded.

And as I pointed out, TMP’s “complete aesthetic reset” was followed promptly by another reset. The familiar template for ridged Klingons was not the TMP redesign, but the Search for Spock re-redesign, which was quite different. The TMP version was a rough draft that was never seen again. So assuming that the Discovery redesign would be fixed and immutable forevermore was forgetting Trek history, and of course it proved to be a false assumption within a year, when the DSC Klingon design was toned down, restoring hair and shrinking the skulls to a more human size.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

Compare the designs of Andorians compared to TOS, TNG, ENT and DSC.  Ent and DSC are fairly close to all the others are wildly different.

CathWren
1 year ago

No one else has mentioned it but I’m thinking the lawyer Pike is looking for is the same one who defended Kirk when he was on trial for spacing his friend, who wasn’t really spaced (I don’t remember the name of the episode). The lawyer who wouldn’t use a computer, only books.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

Court martial and Samuel Cogley. And I hope it’s not. The universe is much too small already  

CathWren
1 year ago

Ack! I just rewatched the episode and they refer to the lawyer as she so I’m wrong. Oh well, it had to happen someday. ;)

 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@105/CathWren: We’ve seen Number One’s lawyer in the teaser clips previously released, and she’s played by Yetide Badaki of American Gods.

Corylea
1 year ago

Babs Olusanmokun has a 3rd-degree black belt in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu in real life. I wonder if the super serum was introduced not really for the character but for the actor, so Olusanmokun could show off his real-life fighting skills?  That might explain the weird action sequence, which seemed rather out of character otherwise.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@107 krad – Agree about Cogley’s competence but was just letting @103 know the name and episode they were blanking on.

Of course, competence isn’t really a requirement for many characters in Trek.  We’re told they’re the top of their field but the reality is usually much different.

It’ll be interesting to see what sort of legal contortions they go through to get Number One off as we know the prohibition against genetic modification is still in effect in the future

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@108/Corylea: That’s quite plausible. TV shows often warp the stories in weird directions to let cast members show off their skills — e.g. DS9 finding an excuse to create a holographic Kira Nerys lounge singer so Nana Visitor could perform “Fever.”

 

@109/kkozoriz: I could see it being argued that since genetic modifications are a normal, universal practice of the Illyrians, rather than an attempt of a small group to elevate itself above the rest, enforcing the law against them constitutes discrimination against the entire species, which presumably violates the UFP constitution. Perhaps the law needs to be rephrased so that it only restricts genetic enhancement beyond the normal range of the species’ abilities. That’s how I always understood it as presented in DS9, as not a total ban on genetic engineering but specifically on the use of it to augment people beyond natural ability. So maybe this is how the law gets clarified to mean that.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@110 – Hasn’t it been stated that the Illyrians have modified themselves to survive in different environments?  And Number One has that active immune system that saved her and everyone else from the “I need light” disease.  

I can see them allowing modifications to correct genetic errors like what happened with Bashier. The problem with him is that they went beyond the norm.  It appears that Number One is similarly “superior”.  Of course, none of that changes the fact that she knowingly lied on her application

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@110 – Hasn’t it been stated that the Illyrians have modified themselves to survive in different environments?  And Number One has that active immune system that saved her and everyone else from the “I need light” disease.  

I can see them allowing modifications to correct genetic errors like what happened with Bashier. The problem with him is that they went beyond the norm.  It appears that Number One is similarly “superior”.  Of course, none of that changes the fact that she knowingly lied on her application.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@112/kkozoriz: “The problem with him is that they went beyond the norm.”

Yes, that’s exactly my point: since all Illyrian populations practice genetic modification routinely, being modified is the norm for them, in a way it isn’t with humans. It’s not a small group trying to change their species’ nature, it is the species’ nature to be genetically modified in one way or another. So applying the law to them discriminates against the entire species, which is racist as hell and is not the purpose the law was intended to serve. So the letter of the law needs to be changed to better fit its spirit, and that means accepting that genetic modification in Illyrians is their species norm. That way, Number One gets to stay in Starfleet while the law as defined in DS9 still stands.

Corylea
1 year ago

@113/ChristopherLBennett — Since all Illyrian populations practice genetic modification routinely, being modified is the norm for them, in a way it isn’t with humans. It’s not a small group trying to change their species’ nature, it is the species’ nature to be genetically modified in one way or another. So applying the law to them discriminates against the entire species, which is racist as hell and is not the purpose the law was intended to serve. So the letter of the law needs to be changed to better fit its spirit, and that means accepting that genetic modification in Illyrians is their species norm. That way, Number One gets to stay in Starfleet while the law as defined in DS9 still stands.

That’s brilliant!  I hope the writing of the actual episode is as clever as you’ve been here!

 

fullyfunctional
1 year ago

@115

Is this satire?

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@113 – But then the Illyrians get an advantage that’s denied to all the other races in the Federation.  Being genetically augmented isn’t their normal situation because they would have had to reach a fairly high level of technology in order to do it.  It’s become “normal” fairly recently in racial history.  They get unfettered genetic augmentation while the rest of the population doesn’t.  

It makes me wonder how many humans we see walking around in the background are actually Illurians post SNW if they go they way you suggest.  Enhanced strength and dexterity for security.  Why would you enlist humans when you can get Illiarians that are much superior to their job?  Scientists could have enhanced intelligence and memory.  Captains get improved problems solving, charisma and leadership.  Let the Illiarians in and they’d soon be running the whole show.

 

Hal
Hal
1 year ago

I don’t have a problem with seeing variations on Klingon designs. It’s supposed to be a big empire, so why not? The problem I had with the 2017 Discovery redesign is that it wasn’t just a visual change, they also altered the tone of their culture in ways I didn’t find interesting or fun to watch. I can imagine myself having a drink with the head-butting space Vikings of TNG and DS9, or even the mustache-twirlers of TOS. The Discovery Klingons on the other hand, not so much. They were just kind of gross and, silly as this sounds, lacking in nuance. They’re BAD space monsters. They ate the captain. Uh-huh. Back to Mordor with ya.

costumer
1 year ago

115) Robert

4 – “To boldly go where no one has gone before.”….  It’s “to boldly go where no man has gone before”… Man = the HuMAN race! 

 

You realize its been “No One has gone before” since 1987? Since the first episode of Next Generation?

 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@117/kkozoriz: “But then the Illyrians get an advantage that’s denied to all the other races in the Federation.”

Do they? Different Federation species have different attributes already. Vulcans are naturally as physically and mentally superior as human Augments. Some species have superhuman senses like telepathy or sensing electric fields. Lanthanites are naturally almost immortal. Plenty of species have advantages others lack.

The whole point here is that the law shouldn’t be applied on the level of whole species, because that’s racist and obviously wrong. The point is that the law should only be about enhancements beyond a given species’ own typical range of variations, so as not to stigmatize entire species for being different from each other.

 

“Being genetically augmented isn’t their normal situation because they would have had to reach a fairly high level of technology in order to do it.”

That makes no sense. It is the normal situation for most Illyrians alive during the existence of the Federation. Who cares what was “normal” centuries in the past? It used to be normal for people to keep slaves. Now it’s abnormal. Laws exist for the benefit of the people alive in the present, so they should be based on the conditions and needs of the present.

 

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@120 – “The point is that the law should only be about enhancements beyond a given species’ own typical range of variations, so as not to stigmatize entire species for being different from each other.”

But Illyrians have many different augmentations.  Should they be allowed just one?  Two?  One from column A and one from column B?  Why not pack in as many augmentations as they can.  If each of them is already existing in some Illyrian somewhere, why not let them use all of the?  And don’t they come up with new enhancements as needed?  When are they not allowed to add new augmentations?  Never?  Make them just as strong as Vulcans, as telepathic as Aenar, as shapeshifting as an Antosian, and so on.  What’s to stop them from becoming all the Federation in one package?

 

northman
1 year ago

@@@@@ 120 CLB – “The whole point here is that the law shouldn’t be applied on the level of whole species, because that’s racist and obviously wrong.”

True, but you’re positing that exact thing by saying this one species should be exempt from the law every other Federation species has to follow. And what is ‘normal’ for the Illyrains is irrelevant for the same reason it would be wrong to give any other species or group of people a pass on following the law if it happens to be a cultural norm for them to violate it. Changing the law because it happens to be stupid the way it was written or unfairly burdens some group is fine, but it still needs to apply to everyone short of some compelling individual reason for why an exception is warranted.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@120 – Deltans have to take a celibacy oath in order to serve in Starfleet.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@122/northman: “True, but you’re positing that exact thing by saying this one species should be exempt from the law every other Federation species has to follow.”

No, I’m saying the law needs to be rewritten to specify that it only refers to departures from a given species’ typical range of attributes, rather than being a crude ban on all genetic engineering, because that unfairly discriminates against Illyrians (and probably Denobulans too). Law is not morality. If a law is unfair to certain people, it needs to be changed to become more fair.

After all, every Federation species is already different in its abilities. So one can’t be simple-mindedly rigid about something like this. The law has to allow for nuance and situational variations. Fairness doesn’t mean forcing everyone to fit the same Procrustean bed; it means adapting the system to accommodate people’s differences from one another. That’s why wrestlers have weight classes.

As Jean-Luc Picard once said, “There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even history itself is an exercise in exceptions.”

 

@123/kkozoriz: “Deltans have to take a celibacy oath in order to serve in Starfleet.”

But not to be citizens of the Federation, which is a completely different subject. Plenty of people who join military organizations have to obey restrictions that aren’t binding on civilians, for instance, being forbidden to wear their hair a certain way.

Besides, let’s not lose sight of the parameters of the discussion. We know already from preview clips, and just from common sense, that Number One is going to keep her position as Pike’s first officer. It’s a given that she will be allowed to stay in Starfleet. So the point of this speculation is not to debate whether it will or should happen, because we know it will. The point is to consider possibilities for how it will happen.

Plus, of course, we’ll know the answer for certain in less than four days. So it seems pretty pointless to argue about it as if the outcome were somehow up to us. I proposed a possibility; either it will be the answer given in the episode or it will not. The episode itself is the only thing that will determine that.

northman
1 year ago

@124 – Quoth CLB – “since all Illyrian populations practice genetic modification routinely, being modified is the norm for them, in a way it isn’t with humans. It’s not a small group trying to change their species’ nature, it is the species’ nature to be genetically modified in one way or another. So applying the law to them discriminates against the entire species”

Maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but it sure sounds like you are saying that the Illyrians as a species should be allowed to ignore the prohibition against genetic enhancement because it is a cultural norm for them, unlike for humans or Vulcans or all the other Federation species who have agreed to the ban as the price of membership. 

And I will note that the Illyrians are completely free to continue as is. No one is saying they cannot continue to practice their genetic enhancements to their heart’s content, only that they cannot join the Federation so long as they do so. Membership in the Federation is a voluntary association, subject to agreeing to follow certain rules and commitments. Being discriminatory about membership is allowed, unless such discrimination is over something the excluded group has no choice over (not the case with the Illyrians), and/or there is a compelling case that such exclusion is causing harm of some sort to the excluded group and that harm is severe enough to overcome the harm the exclusion is meant to avoid. What harms are being felt by the Illyrians because they cannot join the Federation? And can that harm only be solved by granting them membership while also forgoing the ban on genetic enhancements?

Also, what would constitute “departures from a given species’ typical range of attributes” in a species that routinely engages in extreme modifications to live in various environments (amongst other enhancements, as we have seen with Una’s supercharged immune system)? What is a “typical” Illyrian? Humans cannot be augmented because that would not be ‘typical’. So does that also apply to Illyrians, and if not, why not? If you allow them to keep those extreme modifications because they are ‘normal’ for Illyrians now, can humans split away from the Federation for a few generations of genetic enhancements and then re-apply based on the new ‘typical’ human?

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@125/northman: “Maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but it sure sounds like you are saying that the Illyrians as a species should be allowed to ignore the prohibition against genetic enhancement because it is a cultural norm for them…”

Not at all. I am saying that the law should not be merely against any genetic enhancement, but more specifically about genetic enhancement beyond the typical range of traits for a specific species. Keep in mind that, as defined in previous series, the Federation does not outlaw genetic therapies for human illnesses or disabilities. Genetic engineering is permissible as long as it remains within the typical range of variations for a species rather than serving as an attempt to elevate one subset of that species above others. Since the typical range of variations for Illyrians includes genetic modifications as a matter of course, not for conquest but merely to improve their health and functionality in their chosen environments, it is therefore consistent with that law to allow them to continue to practice such modifications. (One could argue that, say, an unmodified Illyrian would be disabled on a higher-gravity planet, so modifying them with superior strength would be correcting that disability.)

After all, what matters is the spirit and purpose of the law, not just its letter. The intent behind the law is not mere Luddite paranoia about genetics, but the prevention of the emergence of groups like the Augments who would use their enhancements to dominate others. Since Illyrian genetic engineering is practiced by the whole species to adapt themselves to environments, it’s an egalitarian practice, not a power move by wannabe dictators. So it’s an abuse of the intention behind the law to use it as an excuse to persecute them as a species.

 

“And I will note that the Illyrians are completely free to continue as is. No one is saying they cannot continue to practice their genetic enhancements to their heart’s content, only that they cannot join the Federation so long as they do so.”

Which is racist as hell and anathema to the core principles of the Federation. That’s tantamount to saying that a law forbidding Muslims or Jews from becoming Americans was okay because they could still live elsewhere. It’s a horrible position to take, especially given that life in the Federation is probably better and safer than life most anywhere else.

And we know the show’s writers agree, because in “Ghosts of Illyria,” they had M’Benga explicitly refer to the ban on Illyrians as a new form of bigotry. Number One’s whole arc in the show is an allegory for discrimination against marginalized groups. So it’s bizarre to think they would want the audience to take the side favoring discrimination.

 

“Also, what would constitute “departures from a given species’ typical range of attributes” in a species that routinely engages in extreme modifications to live in various environments (amongst other enhancements, as we have seen with Una’s supercharged immune system)?”

That is exactly the point. It’s not about defining some acceptable range of capabilities; that’s just looking for an excuse to be intolerant and build walls between people. It’s about protecting people’s right to be themselves and not be subjugated by a group with authoritarian intentions. Since the Ilyrians modify themselves in so many different ways, there’s no hierarchy to it, no meaningful way to define any of them as “superior” to others. A trait that’s superior in one environment would be harmful in another; for instance, the Aquans from “The Ambergris Element” are superior at living underwater but inferior at living on land.

 

Of course, the whole genetic-engineering ban is stupid and always has been. It makes no sense to outlaw a beneficial science because of the fears of its abuse, especially when the historical event that sparked such fears happened before anyone currently alive was born. Societies don’t work that way in real life. The ban was a bad idea and it’s obvious the SNW writers don’t agree with it, but they’re stuck with it because of continuity. Still, they’re doing what they can to address its problematical aspects and find a way around them for Una.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@@@@@124 – 125 – We already know why Number One will be returning to the ship.  She’s listed in the credits.  Just like Spock got off Scott free last week for stealing the ship.  The outcome is already known.  All that remains is some sort of twist that allows her an advantage that the other races don’t have.

“We know already from preview clips, and just from common sense, that Number One is going to keep her position as Pike’s first officer. It’s a given that she will be allowed to stay in Starfleet. So the point of this speculation is not to debate whether it will or should happen, because we know it will. The point is to consider possibilities for how it will happen.”

@@@@@ 126 – “(One could argue that, say, an unmodified Illyrian would be disabled on a higher-gravity planet, so modifying them with superior strength would be correcting that disability.)”

“A trait that’s superior in one environment would be harmful in another; for instance, the Aquans from “The Ambergris Element” are superior at living underwater but inferior at living on land.”

Are you saying that human living on the same high gravity planet worn;t be disabled?  The difference is that an Illyrian can not only be augmented for the strength to live on a high gravity planet, they could also become water breathers or amphibians.  We saw a genetic edit in the episode Strange New World that allowed people to appear as members of another race.  A few tweaks and an Illyrian could do that for almost any other humanoid race.  Garth of Izar had such an ability given to him.  We’re talking about the Illyrians being given the ability to make themselves superior to everyone.  

“t makes no sense to outlaw a beneficial science because of the fears of its abuse, especially when the historical event that sparked such fears happened before anyone currently alive was born.”

The results of the Eugenics Wars were’t based on fears.  They were based on millions of dead people.  Do we know that if the Illyrians are given the right to join the Federation and Starfleet that the same thing wouldn’t happen?  Up until now, they’ve kept to themselves, people who can match them genetic change for genetic change.  What about when they start socializing with other species and they realize that they are superior to pretty much everyone snd if they’re not, they can make a modification to themselves to make them superior.  

northman
1 year ago

@126 – “One could argue that, say, an unmodified Illyrian would be disabled on a higher-gravity planet, so modifying them with superior strength would be correcting that disability.”

But the exact same argument could be made about a human on that planet. Why is the Illyrian allowed to use genetic enhancements to correct that ‘disability’, but the human isn’t? Why do Illyrians get supercharged immune systems but humans and Vulcans and Andorians are not allowed? I agree the ban as stated is stupid, but the solution to that is to lift the ban, for everyone, not just for what would become a privileged few.

“That’s tantamount to saying that a law forbidding Muslims or Jews from becoming Americans was okay because they could still live elsewhere.”

No it isn’t. This is a technology ban. A stupid one, yes, but still about how a certain technology is allowed to be used. While this can be and continues to be abused, we can and do ban certain practices that are ‘normal’ in other parts of the world. That does not mean we should ban the people from those areas or groups from being able to move to America or Europe or wherever, but we can and do demand they leave those practices behind if we deem them harmful. Hell, it is normal for many Americans to own and even walk around with handguns. That doesn’t mean we should allow people emigrating from the US (and presumably only the US), to carry those handguns with them into Canada because Canada is a safer place to live and not allowing them to move here while they continue with their ‘normal’ practice would be discriminatory.

Additionally, we can and do deny entry or kick out countries from international associations if they fail to uphold agreed upon standards. Russia isn’t getting invited to many international organizations these days, and that doesn’t mean it is because the world has suddenly become racist against Russians. The Federation has standards for membership, and Illyria is not meeting them. You can argue the standard in question is unreasonable, but the fact that such standards exist is not by itself a form of bigotry.

Now if the Federation is disallowing individual Illyrians entry even under those circumstances, then they are being racist/bigoted. But that is a separate argument from allowing Illyria as a nation entry into the Federation, and from whether or not the overall ban on genetic enhancements is reasonable or not.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@128/northman: “Why is the Illyrian allowed to use genetic enhancements to correct that ‘disability’, but the human isn’t?”

Which is exactly why the genetic-engineering ban is stupid and wrong, why genetic enhancement should be legal. Remember, Trek has never actually said the ban is morally right. It was introduced as a source of complications for Dr. Bashir, one of DS9’s main protagonists. We were never meant to believe that Bashir deserved to be discriminated against, and we’re not meant to believe now that Una deserves to be discriminated against. And when it came up in Enterprise‘s Augment arc, Dr. Phlox pointed out that Denobulans practice genetic augmentation with no problems, and the general thrust of that story arc is that what was bad about the Augments wasn’t their genetic enhancement, but specifically the fact that it heightened their aggression and ambition instead of more beneficial traits. The Jack Pack stories on DS9 showed people whose augmentations turned out badly, but that was more a consequence of augmentation being illegal so that it had to be done underground with no safeguards, like how illegal abortion is more dangerous to the mother than legal, regulated abortion.

So the consistent position of every Trek story about the genetic ban is that it’s more a problem than a solution — it’s too harsh and rigid, an unfairly broad prohibition based on irrational fear, and there are plenty of people like Bashir, the Denobulans, and the Illyrians who represent the beneficial potential of genetic enhancement and don’t deserve to be stigmatized based on fear of the Augments. We’re certain to see that argued overtly in this week’s episode, in the same way that “The Measure of a Man” argued in favor of android rights. We’re not expected to root against Una, and that means we’re not expected to root against her people. (Rewatch Una’s log entry in “Ghosts of Illyria,” especially her reaction to being classed as “one of the good ones.”)

 

“This is a technology ban.”

That’s like saying that the current extremist laws being passed by right-wing state governments against drag performances are just about clothing rather than an excuse to criminalize people’s fundamental identity. That technology is the Illyrians’ chosen way of life, something they have embraced for centuries as a defining part of their civilization. There is nothing moral about blindly, mechanically applying an inflexible blanket law to every situation. Laws have to give way to people’s rights, not the other way around. If the law as formulated leads to persecution of an entire species, that law needs to change. Why would SNW have done a story arc about Una’s career being jeopardized by that law if not to show that the law needs to be challenged?

Of course, SNW is stuck with having to keep the law in some form, because we know it’s still around over a century later. So the best they can do is find some way to finesse the language of the law so that it no longer leads to blanket exclusion of Illyrians, thereby allowing Una to remain in Starfleet. That, I believe, is the most logical expectation for what will happen in Thursday’s episode. But of course, we’ll know for a fact in just a few days.

northman
1 year ago

@129 – “Which is exactly why the genetic-engineering ban is stupid and wrong, why genetic enhancement should be legal.”

Agreed, but that is a different argument than saying the Illyrians should be granted a special exemption due to a cultural norm of genetic engineering.

“That’s like saying that the current extremist laws being passed by right-wing state governments against drag performances are just about clothing rather than an excuse to criminalize people’s fundamental identity.”

That’s just wrong and more than a little insulting. The handgun metaphor is far closer to the (not-actually-real) reality. In-universe, the Eugenics Wars have given the Federation (or at least humanity) a solid reason to be distrustful and fearful of genetic engineering. In the immediate aftermath of those conflicts, the idea of allowing unrestricted genetic tinkering was seen as allowing the equivalent of loaded weapons on the streets. The near-blanket ban was/is an irrational overreaction, but it was not put in place as a deliberate attack on a specific group or culture as the drag bans are. Challenging it as unreasonable and unfair is fine, and using the Illyrians as examples of why that is so also works, so long as the way forward is to recognize that they should allow everyone to use the technology in properly regulated ways, rather than trying to single out some group for special treatment, either for or against.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@130/northman: “Agreed, but that is a different argument than saying the Illyrians should be granted a special exemption due to a cultural norm of genetic engineering.”

And I’ve already explained that that’s a gross straw-man misrepresentation of what I’m saying. I’m saying that I think the most logical way to reconcile allowing Illyrians in Starfleet (which is probably what’s going to happen to keep Number One on the show, so let’s not pretend otherwise) with keeping the ban in place in the 24th century is for the law to be narrowed to allow genetic engineering that doesn’t exceed a species’ norms — e.g. using genetic therapy on humans to heal a disease or disability. Since every species already has a range of different abilities within it, and since different species have different capabilities from one another (e.g. Vulcans being far stronger, smarter, longer-lived, and more telepathic than humans), the law would be defined in proportion to whatever is typical for a species, rather than being defined by some kind of universal Procrustean absolute that results in systemic discrimination against a particular species.

Once more: This is not an ethical debate about what the law “should” be in the abstract. This is a prediction of what is actually going to happen in Thursday’s episode. We know what the most likely outcome is: the law is amended to let Illyrians in, so Una gets her job back. All I’m doing is suggesting a plausible argument that Una’s lawyer might use to convince the court to enact that outcome.

mr_d
1 year ago

jaimebabb

THANK YOU That’s what it was. The species change mod. Yes.

I’m not sure I’m someone who needs ambition necessarily. I prefer flow more. This story flows on with consequences for the Klingon War. I’m ok with it just existing to get La’an back. Also while it is biting off of Marion Ravenwood, it was still funny watching La’an send that Klingon to find a barf bag.

ChristopherLBennett

I get that, and there was definitely a much more interesting way to get out of their situation. For instance having Ror’Queg the Klingon M’Benga treated give him the information as a way of paying the debt for healing his wounds. I doubt dying of radiation poisoning gets one a good spot in Stovokor. Then of course the customary next time we meet we’ll be enemies bit.

Which strikes me as a really terrible idea. It hardly seems safe to have something as volatile as a humongous cannon right next to your engines. For that matter, it hardly seems wise to have something that produces as much heat, radiation, and spatial distortion as a warp nacelle right next to your primary weapons. It seems kind of like storing gunpowder next to a furnace.

In the Dominion War the Federation mounted additional Type X phaser arrays on top of the nacelles of Galaxy class starships. Heat, radiation, spatial distortion, these are actually wonderful things to put into a molecular disruption bolt and lob at your enemies. Disruptor Cannons and Phaser Arrays aren’t particularly volatile. The process of generating the damaging portion of a directed energy weapon is a very specific set of processes. Kind of like fusion ignition. Now if it were photon torpedoes I’d agree, one loss of containment and boom. I see different drawbacks like being unable to use those primary Disruptor Cannons while also at warp.

96, krad

So the wholescale redesign of the Klingons in 1979 was okay but doing a variation on that redesign in 2017 isn’t?

My issue is the double standard, and history repeating itself. After all, there was a subset of fandom that thought the changes made for The Motion Picture were horrible and proof that it took place in an alternate timeline, and all the other arguments that seem silly 44 years later — and yet were made again in 2001 and again in 2017……

I have a perspective distortion in that regard. That was already done before I was born. As a kid watching TOS and then jumping to the movies, it never even occurred to me to question. Four decades later with developed tastes and a general reverence for the way things are, but an understanding that change is the essential element of life, I still hate what they did in 2017. With the previous changes they were all on a continued spectrum. You can clearly see the evolution from TMP to TNG to Late TNG. Even the Kelvin Timeline Klingons we saw onscreen still looked like TNG Klingons with different ridges. The Disco Season 1 Klingons were clearly an revolutionary jump in make up technology, it just seemed like a jump into a dank swamp. There seemed to be nothing of the Klingons we knew, visually speaking. It seemed to be change for the sake of change rather than an improvement.

ChristopherLBennett

Even then I liked the unused Kelvin Klingon designs Page did way more than what ended up on screen.

I see what you mean about the SNW version, it’s kind of like the Forehead is sitting up too high. It was done better on some characters than others.

 98, jaimebabb

That’s a good point. Having genuinely established characters in a style matters a lot. Which is why it was alright to redesign Trill entirely for Terry Farrell as they only had one appearance prior to DS9. Her spots became the iconic look for the species. By the time of DS9 we had Worf, Kurn, Gowron, Klaa, Gorkon, Kruge, K’mPec (Who is still fat), and Koord.To the point that when the classic three Klingons showed up on DS9 Kang, Kor, and Kolos all got their own current gen Klingon makeup. Then they changed it in an extreme way that barely looked like what came before. It was like giving a Wookie a haircut. It was altering a winning formula. Disco Season 1 Klingons were New Coke.

 

On the subject of the Illyrians, forcing them to comply with Federation Genetic Engineering laws has a lot of problems. First, do you Ungenetic engineer all Illyrian citizens? Do you make them abandon their colonies on inhospitable worlds? What if there isn’t an Illryian baseline anymore? It is an imposition on their civilization which otherwise is very Federation compatible, to make them obey rules meant for humans specifically to not destroy themselves. This is something that gives truth to Azetbur’s statement that the Federation is a Homo Sapiens only club. Humans messed up with genetic engineering, so now NO ONE gets genetic engineering. It reminds me of the Hekaran scientist Dr Serova, who would’ve happily banned warp drive for all civilizations to protect Hekaras. Warp Drive is a technology that Federation Civilization is built on and depends on to survive just as genetic engineering is now integral to Illyrians. Blocking Illyrian entry to the Federation based on their practice is self defeating to the Federation. Una Chin Riley is not Khan Noonien Singh. Just because humans failed at it doesn’t mean other species shouldn’t be allowed to utilize it. If it was a United Earth law specifically geared towards humans, I’d totally understand, but a Federation wide Ban seems like an overreaction.

Now I’m going to go reread KRAD’s Court Martial review.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@132/mr_d: “Heat, radiation, spatial distortion, these are actually wonderful things to put into a molecular disruption bolt and lob at your enemies.”

“Put into?” That’s the part where you lose me. My point is that those things could interfere with or damage the mechanisms of the weapon. As you say, “generating the damaging portion of a directed energy weapon is a very specific set of processes.” That means anything that interferes with those processes can prevent it from working right.

 

“Disruptor Cannons and Phaser Arrays aren’t particularly volatile.”

Maybe not, but how many dozens of times have you heard a captain say “Target their weapons?” Putting a gun on a warp engine makes the warp engine a target, even more so than it might’ve been already.

And the fact that it was done in the Dominion War doesn’t make it any better. Something doesn’t have to be the first iteration of a bad idea to be a bad idea.

 

“Even the Kelvin Timeline Klingons we saw onscreen still looked like TNG Klingons with different ridges. The Disco Season 1 Klingons were clearly an revolutionary jump in make up technology, it just seemed like a jump into a dank swamp.”

The Kelvin and DSC Klingons were both Neville Page designs and have a number of similarities, like bald heads and bright contact lenses. The differences between them strike me as matters of degree. The most drastic change was the enlarged back of the skull, and that was abandoned in the season 2 revision of the makeup.

th1_
1 year ago

It was a quite lovely episode to open the season IMO. The action scenes were indeed boring and dumb and i would be actually very surprised if a Klingon warrior would give away secrets because of beating/torture, so that was even more stupid. The idea of a Gorn war is very annoying as well – first of all, we don’t need another war and second, why trying to retrofit something that was never ever mentioned in the future???

But besides these, the story was OK and i like how the characters develop – except for the action hero medical staff…

northman
1 year ago

@CLB – Of course this is a ethical debate. Even if we’re just positing a plausible prediction of what the show is going to do, we are doing so based on our understanding the Federation’s principles, which is generally egalitarian and respectful of people’s rights. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be going on about a “Procrustean absolute that results in systemic discrimination against a particular species”. That right there is an ethical argument, which is ironic given you state it immediately before claiming that this is somehow not an ethical debate.

And your argument as stated is that people should be restricted in their genetic enhancements based on what is ‘normal’ for their species, and that because Illyrians are already heavily genetically modified, they should be allowed to continue what is now considered ‘normal’ to them. The issue with that solution is that it effectively creates a genetic enhancements grandfathers clause.

“Oh, you want a supercharged immune system? Gee, sorry. Looks like your grandparents were not allowed to get such genetic improvements back in the day, and as you know, we can’t allow you people to have any enhancements that would be outside the norm for your people. Please move aside and find a seat somewhere in the back while the people whose ancestors did make genetic engineering part of their culture move to the front of the line for these enhancements. And next time you want some genetic tinkering done, try and do a better job of selecting your grandparents.”

So long as that remains part of your argument, I’m a hard no.

northman
1 year ago

As a prediction for a better solution to the problem of allowing Illyrians into the Federation, there is another possibility that directly references one of the main reasons why we consider certain exclusions to be ethically wrong: if the group being denied membership are being excluded over something they have no choice or control over. And I think they may have seeded this reason in Season one, where the group of Illyrians that tried to get rid of their enhancements were wiped out or turned into energy creatures. Make it so that the Illyrians have been genetically engineering themselves for so long that they literally can no longer survive without such engineering, and you have a solid reason to grant them an exclusion to the ban while still leaving the ban in place for everyone else to cause Bashir problems in a century or so.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@135/northman: “That right there is an ethical argument, which is ironic given you state it immediately before claiming that this is somehow not an ethical debate.”

I was directing that at myself as well, to remind myself that we’ll get a definitive answer in three days so it’s not worth getting dragged into a lengthy argument over it. I’d really rather just drop it.

 

“And your argument as stated is that people should be restricted in their genetic enhancements based on what is ‘normal’ for their species, and that because Illyrians are already heavily genetically modified, they should be allowed to continue what is now considered ‘normal’ to them. The issue with that solution is that it effectively creates a genetic enhancements grandfathers clause.”

There you go tossing the word “should” around again. Discussion does not imply endorsement. I think I’ve made it clear that I don’t think the restriction should exist at all, that it’s a stupid, xenophobic law that should be repealed entirely. But we know it won’t be repealed, that it still exists twelve decades later, so that option isn’t on the table and we have to work with what we have.

I think I should clarify that I’m approaching this as a writer. To a writer, the question is not “What do I believe about this?” The question is “What do the characters believe that motivates their decisions?” Exploring that often requires imagining mindsets and beliefs different from one’s own, because of course different characters in the same story have different points of view. As a writer, I do that reflexively, so maybe I didn’t make it clear enough to you that that’s what I’m doing. Presuming that the decision made in Thursday’s episode is to acquit Una while leaving the ban in place, I’m putting myself in the shoes of the Federation decision-makers and hypothesizing about what their reasoning behind that might be.

 

“Make it so that the Illyrians have been genetically engineering themselves for so long that they literally can no longer survive without such engineering, and you have a solid reason to grant them an exclusion to the ban…”

Doesn’t that apply to everyone, though? Illyrians engineer themselves to survive the conditions of a new planet when they colonize it. So the first generation adapts themselves, and their descendants inherit those traits that allow them to survive there. They become a new ethnic group, defined by their genetic modifications. Those modifications are hereditary, an inseparable part of their genomes and bodies, so in that sense they can’t exist without them.

In fact, perhaps that does suggest an alternate argument Una’s lawyer might make. If her traits are inherited from her colony’s founders generations before, then she herself is not genetically engineered; she’s just naturally inherited traits that were engineered into her ancestors. Which would make it as unfair to punish her under the law as it would be to punish La’an for having Khan as an ancestor.

I kind of hope not, though, because then the law is allowed to stand unchanged and there isn’t really any progress made to reduce its inherent injustice.

cuttlefishbenjamin
1 year ago

My working theory is that Lanthanites are a human subgroup resulting from sort of of alien experimentation.  That would make an interesting parallel to the ongoing questions of augmentation- though of course the weakness of this theory is you’d think someone would’ve brought it up during one of Pelia’s Starfleet medical exams at some point.

garreth
1 year ago

For a season premiere, I thought this was kind of meh.  I thought we’d pick right up with the Una trial.  It was nice seeing Spock as the unusual Vulcan because he could get down and dirty Klingons.  Speaking of Klingons, it’s nice to see them return to this look after what we saw in Discovery.  Seeing Chapel and the Doc become super soldiers was pretty ridiculous.  Also, I don’t get the what the whole dramatic pay-off to La’an going off to find the little girl’s parents was supposed to be.  We didn’t see much of La’an going on this search and then it’s all wrapped up relatively quickly.  There’s this scene with her and the little girl when they’re parting ways and I guess it’s supposed to be touching but really it’s not because we didn’t even spend much time with the two of them together.  So Spock is in love with Chapel.  That’s interesting.

garreth
1 year ago

Oh, and I feel like Regina George in Mean Girls when I say “stop trying to make the Gorn happen, it’s not going to happen.” At least this iteration of those aliens.

garreth
1 year ago

@7/Chase: Maybe Uhura’s lack of knowledge of Klingonese in ST VI can be explained by her memory being wiped by NOMAD in that TOS episode and she just never bothered to learn that language again.

mr_d
1 year ago

139, krad

mr_d: “You can clearly see the evolution from TMP to TNG to Late TNG. Even the Kelvin Timeline Klingons we saw onscreen still looked like TNG Klingons with different ridges.”

The Bad Robot Klingons look almost exactly like the Discovery Klingons.

As for your first sentence, 1) you’re ignoring the “evolution” from TOS to TMP, which is a complete radical change, and also the fact that the Enterprise Klingons look like the later TNG ones, not the movie ones.

 

Going back and looking at them, I disagree. I see why you’d say that, but they’re vastly more streamlined. As Mr. Bennett pointed out they don’t have the elongated skull. Nor is there a radical recoloration. But they also don’t have the excess of makeup on the lower portion of the face. I had forgotten they were bald as well, but the baldness doesn’t mean much, we saw Chang ages ago. I also loved the forehead ridge jewelry there.

As for the TMP redesign, you mock me for hypocrisy and I find it a false charge. I was never one of those raising Cain about it, my parents hadn’t even met yet. The explanation that “This is what they always looked like” that I heard later worked fine for me. My charge is that the change in 2017 was egregiously bad. We’re clearly looking at it with very different eyes, because the changes you say are exactly the same I find to be excessive and extreme. The Klingons from Into Darkness look like Bald TNG Klingons from a House we’ve never met before. Klingons from Discovery Season 1 look bulky, I don’t like saying Orc-like, but it does fit. If it had been a genuine improvement nobody would’ve complained, certainly not me.

133, ChristopherLBennett

The Kelvin and DSC Klingons were both Neville Page designs and have a number of similarities, like bald heads and bright contact lenses. The differences between them strike me as matters of degree. The most drastic change was the enlarged back of the skull, and that was abandoned in the season 2 revision of the makeup.

This.^ I maintain that his Unused Kelvin designs are the best, but the ones that made it into the film were great.

“Put into?” That’s the part where you lose me. My point is that those things could interfere with or damage the mechanisms of the weapon. As you say, “generating the damaging portion of a directed energy weapon is a very specific set of processes.” That means anything that interferes with those processes can prevent it from working right.

How’d I lose you? That’s what you put into energy weapons. They’re designed to process that into something to destroy a target with. It doesn’t interfere, it enhances. The Motion Picture made it a point of saying they increased the power of the phasers by taking power (plasma) directly from the warp core. This is the same thing, just attached to the warp nacelle instead of routed through the ship.

Maybe not, but how many dozens of times have you heard a captain say “Target their weapons?” Putting a gun on a warp engine makes the warp engine a target, even more so than it might’ve been already.

You’re trying to preemptively dispute that point, but disabling the warp nacelles is at least as important as disabling the weapons. But Klingons never think of themselves as prey, but predator. They may feel that the added firepower is worth the risk of their engines being higher priority targets. That said, they’re not the only Cannon emplacement as there’s also the forward cannons at the base of the wings on either side of the neck. They also placed their main torpedo launcher directly underneath the bridge. That actually seems to be a tradition.

And the fact that it was done in the Dominion War doesn’t make it any better. Something doesn’t have to be the first iteration of a bad idea to be a bad idea.

The question is “is it a bad idea if it works?“. There’s clearly not a mechanical issue with placing Directed Energy Weapons on the engines in universe. I’d think it would be a way to utilize the excess thermal energy in the nacelles. However I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that the Dominion war Galaxy’s nacelle phaser arrays were holdovers from the All Good Things Galaxy-X which plenty of people from Probert on down think was a very bad idea period.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@143/mr_d: “How’d I lose you? That’s what you put into energy weapons. They’re designed to process that into something to destroy a target with. It doesn’t interfere, it enhances.”

The point is that there’s a profound difference between the internal energies that a weapon is designed to use and external energies that interfere with its operation. If you light the fuse of a cast-iron cannon, the cannon will fire the way it’s supposed to. If you set a roaring fire underneath that cannon, it won’t help the cannon work any better; on the contrary, it will probably overheat and crack the casing, rendering the cannon useless.

The reason Matt Jefferies put warp nacelles out on struts is that they’re supposed to be radiating dangerous energies for a good distance around themselves. You’re thinking about the internal energies that would be channeled through a weapons system, but I’m talking about the dangerous radiation, waste heat, and space-warping that anything near a warp nacelle would realistically be immersed in.

 

“There’s clearly not a mechanical issue with placing Directed Energy Weapons on the engines in universe.”

The universe is not real. Things only happen in it because creators decide they do. So it’s nonsensical circular reasoning to cite the in-universe things the creators decide to depict as a justification for their choice to depict them that way. It’s the design choices of the creators that I’m critiquing. For the reasons I discussed, it is an implausible decision to claim that it’s okay to put weapons on top of warp engines. It ignores the reasons why warp nacelles were designed the way they were back in 1964.

mr_d
1 year ago

@144, ChristopherLBennett

It’s not nonsensical, I always start from the Watsonian perspective in situations like this, binding the work being discussed to real world conventions make far less sense to me.

Doylistically, Matt Jefferies designed the D7 too, and he placed the weapons on the nacelles. Come to think of it the Phaser Cannons on the Defiant are also forward mounted on her nacelles too. If the Bird of Prey’s warp coils are indeed in the wings themselves, that also counts. They’ve gone to that well a few times.

I get your point in why it could be a bad design decision, but I don’t think it’s challenge that can’t be overcome. Nor do I think it’s a design challenge Klingons would be expected to shy away from considering the possibility of more power. Like I said before, I think that the nacelle portion shuts down and all of the warp plasma is shunted directly into the cannons, thereby the warp nacelle is powered down and wouldn’t be interfering. More like a ship taking power from electric motors and diverting it to the ship’s Railgun.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@145/mr_d: “It’s not nonsensical, I always start from the Watsonian perspective in situations like this, binding the work being discussed to real world conventions make far less sense to me.”

On the contrary. It’s perfectly valid to analyze fiction in terms of how credible its ideas are. Especially in a franchise like Star Trek, which Roddenberry strove to make as credible as he could. When I was growing up, Trek was the only SFTV or film franchise that made any effort at all to be plausible, and though it often fell short for budgetary or dramatic reasons, I appreciated that it at least tried, when virtually nobody else bothered. So when more modern Trek productions fail to be credible, I find that disappointing.

If anything, the recent shows are doing better in terms of scientific credibility thanks to the input of Dr. Erin McDonald, the science advisor. In particular, I practically wept with joy when “A Quality of Mercy” finally explained how the “motion sensors” in “Balance of Terror” worked — it’s gravitational microlensing! Of course, it’s so simple! So that just underlines how disappointing it is when they do something implausible.

 

“If the Bird of Prey’s warp coils are indeed in the wings themselves, that also counts.”

No, because the BoP’s engines are not on the wings. They’re the big “shoulder pad” pieces on the aft part of the ship (the BoP was designed to look from the front like a charging linebacker), and there are only disruptors on the ends of the wings. It looked to me like the D-7 here was retconned to work the same way, with a big glowy engine thingy on the back.

Chase
Chase
1 year ago

@142 That’s a fairly plausible explanation that would actually impose some kind of consequences from NOMAD, but I still hate it and prefer to just ignore that scene altogether.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@142 & 147: Dang, when I wrote Living Memory and delved into Uhura’s post-Nomad memory loss, maybe I should’ve included a mention that she’d lost her knowledge of languages including Klingonese. Although it’s a moot point now, since SNW’s Uhura backstory with her parents and brother dying directly contradicts my depiction of her family in Living Memory.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@148 – Except Uhura didn’t lose her knowledge of Swahili. Unless Chapel started teaching her Swahili before she taught her English.

 

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@149/kkozoriz: I phrased that ambiguously — I didn’t mean to say she’d forgotten every language, just some of them including Klingon.

Besides, Swahili is Uhura’s native language, which is why “The Changeling” showed her reverting to it and why she heard the Melkot’s telepathic probe message in it. It would be harder to forget your native language than one you learned later. There are indications that first and second languages are stored differently in the brain. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090708094825.htm

kkozoriz
1 year ago

My head canon is that Nomad basically destroyed the index to her knowledge which is why she was able to get back up to college level in just a few days.  The information was still there, she just had to relearn how to access it.

 

Chase
Chase
1 year ago

@150 @151 Even if we did adopt that explanation for her memory loss, that wouldn’t explain why she never re-learned Klingon in the 25 years following her encounter with Nomad. That seems out of character for her.

Hal
Hal
1 year ago

I’ll take a crack at this. Uhhh… the Klingon border guards in TUC were speaking an older, more obscure dialect, like from Archer’s time, and so it wasn’t well known to the Federation at that time, forcing them to fall back on old books to make it sound authentic. Whut, ya’ll don’t know Southern Klingon? (But why they would have to rely on printed books and not have this is in the computer is beyond me.)

I mean, if we can accept Klingons having various visual designs, why not language too?

Arben
1 year ago

I’m all for artistic license and technological progress but what made both the new-movie and Discovery Klingons not work for me — to a distracting, ridiculous degree — was the physical revisions being so extreme and hard to reconcile with the species as we know them in storytelling terms.

kkozoriz
1 year ago

@155 – That’s accepted simply by having the bigger budget for a movie.  They could hardly be expected to translate the TV show directly to the movie screen.  It would look ridiculous.  Besides, If most alines looks like humans with something stuck to their face, why can’t Klingons have different racial types?  One thing Trek has always done badly is having alien as monocultures.  And yet, just look at the Enterprise with Shura, Chekov, Scotty and others showing variations in culture.  But for aliens, one is pretty much like the other on any given planet.

 

MarkVolund
1 year ago

I’ve always considered the bit in ST-6 with Uhura et al. struggling with an oversized Klingon dictionary/grammar to simply be a piece of misplaced slapstick, never to be seen or mentioned again. There are other things in that movie that deserve to be retconned, ignored, or simply never to be mentioned ever again, the mind meld Spock forces on Valeris being among the most notable.

I’m with the large number of people who disliked Discovery‘s first season redesign of the Klingons, and was happy to see it dialed back to look a little more like what had gone before. I think a lot of the other differences between the various series and movies can be explained away by citing ethnic differences within the Klingon gene pool. We have seen, after all, that the scions of different Houses will have different skull ridges and skin tones. Klingon evolution, unlike Human evolution, may not have had bottleneck event(s) that seriously winnowed down the population; and even with that, look at the diversity amongst Humans despite our being genetically homogeneous compared to some other species on our planet.

(Also, do you really expect makeup techniques to remain consistent over the life of a franchise that’s almost 60 years old?!?!?)

As for the Romulans … bear in mind that Vulcans and Romulans are in origin the same race. In their distant (and violent) past both smooth and brow-ridged Vulcans had to have existed. (The Mintakans, a proto-Vulcanoid race, also had brow ridges, suggesting that the smooth foreheads are a later variation.) The “Northerner/Southerner” divide seems an oversimplified explanation for why some Romulans have ridges, and others don’t; a more nuanced explanation may be that when Surak was promulgating his reforms, the divide between those who accepted them and those “who marched beneath the Raptor’s wings” may have also been along clan or ethnic lines. There’s evidence that the Vulcans aren’t (or weren’t) totally free of bigotry; over the ensuing centuries after the split prejudice against any remaining Vulcans with brow ridges may have served as incentive for the feature to largely be bred out.

Chase
Chase
1 year ago

@157 For all that STVI is one of the best-looking Trek movies ever, I feel like every time I watch it I come away liking it less. It feels like it has sort of a proto-DS9 tone to it, but it achieves that tone through character assassination (KRAD’s review covers the flaws very well). It will never stop bothering me that the only people who are made to apologize for their past behavior are the Enterprise crew. Should the Klingons not have apologized for all the literal massacres and wars they started? STIII implies that Kruge was a rogue actor, but shouldn’t there have been some acknowledgement that David’s murder was in fact wrong (though maybe the Klingons believed it was an honorable death)?

Anyway, not to rehash the criticism of a 30 year-old movie, but I agree that there are things in there that are best just forgotten.

Christopher Valin
Christopher Valin
1 year ago

Somehow I missed the review last week, and specifically came here to see if anyone else had the same thought I did about Simka from Taxi being Pelia when she was younger. I’m glad I wasn’t disappointed. I’ve also decided that she was Lillian from Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt as well. :)

If the performance enhancing drug that M’Benga carries around turns out to be an ongoing storyline, I’m wondering if that somehow leads to him no longer being Chief Medical Officer of the Enterprise in TOS. That inconsistency is one of the things I’ve been wondering about since the series began.

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@159/Christopher Valin: “If the performance enhancing drug that M’Benga carries around turns out to be an ongoing storyline, I’m wondering if that somehow leads to him no longer being Chief Medical Officer of the Enterprise in TOS. That inconsistency is one of the things I’ve been wondering about since the series began.”

I don’t see it as an inconsistency. It’s not unheard of for a person to leave a leadership position and then take a subordinate position under someone else — an obvious example is Spock being captain of the Enterprise prior to TWOK and then returning to the first officer post after TVH. In real life, I’ve seen TV showrunners take jobs under other showrunners on later series — sometimes even working under showrunners who used to work under them.

Although, given the actors’ respective ages, I often wonder if TOS’s M’Benga is actually Joseph M’Benga’s son.

Bill
Bill
1 year ago

Lanthanite and Gorn seem like stand ins for Guinan’s people and the Borg.  We know Guinan was on Earth in the 1800s.  I suppose multiple human passing alien’s could have been, but it both seem recycled and a bit lazy.  When we hear that the Gorn wiped out the Lanthanite home planet I will try not to shake my head.  

ChristopherLBennett
1 year ago

@161/Bill: I’ll never understand why people hear “centuries-old humanoid aliens living among us on Earth” and immediately jump to “El-Aurians” as if that were the only other example of the idea in the history of science fiction. I mean, Apollo’s people lived among us as gods for several thousand years; “Who Mourns” said they came 5000 years ago, but in real life the era in which the Greek gods were worshipped was between 2-4000 years ago, and Apollo claimed they didn’t leave until worship of them died down.

Guinan was just visiting 1890s Earth as far as “Time’s Arrow” established; it wasn’t until PIC season 2 that her visit was revealed as lasting more than a century. So this association of El-Aurians with aliens living on Earth for centuries is a connection nobody would’ve made before last year. Yet somehow people keep talking about it as if it were the obvious and exclusive possibility.

And yes, it’s repetitive, but how many Trek aliens have guided human evolution (Sky Spirits, Gary Seven’s sponsors), been the source of our mythology (Apollo, Kukulkan, the Megans), or abducted humans to other worlds (Preservers, Briori, Skagarans)?

 

And how do you get from Gorn to Borg? SNW’s Gorn are more a ripoff of Xenomorphs from the Alien franchise. They’re nothing like Borg; Borg are dispassionate and clinical, SNW Gorn are hyperaggressive and ravenous.