Happy Monday, Sanderfans and Cosmere Chickens! It’s time for another Wind and Truth read-along discussion. Chapters 12 and 13 wrapped up the events of Day One, and so we’re on to the Interludes before we dive into Day Two! Today we’ll be discussing Kalak and… dun-dun-dunnn… Odium.
Note that this post will possibly contain full Cosmere spoilers, so beware if you aren’t caught up on all Cosmere content. And please remember, when posting or commenting about these preview chapters on social media, to follow your platform’s spoiler rules. Pattern says, “No spoilers!” Your comments here, however, don’t need to be spoiler-tagged, so feel free to comment as you will down below…
Onward to our commentary!
Paige’s Summary and Commentary
There are no epigraphs on Interludes, of course, so let’s dive right in!
Interlude 1 is from Kalak’s POV. As you’ll remember from chapter 7, he chose to stay at Lasting Integrity after Shallan and Adolin (astride Gallant!) left with the Windrunners. In this Interlude, Kalak goes to his quarters and locks himself in, thinking that, after all of his long years of life, he still doesn’t want to die. He wonders if he should have gone with the Radiants and then decides that he needs to hide somewhere other than Lasting Integrity because Thaidakar, “a Herald from another world,” could send someone else after him.
He goes into his study to gather his things and… the drapes by the window grab him, tie him up, shove a gag in his mouth, and slam him against the wall. He wonders if this is some art of Stonewards but we know better, don’t we, Sanderfans? If you recall Kaladin’s visit to Zahel in chapter 15 of Rhythm of War, “The Light and the Music,” Zahel used Awakening to manipulate cloth when he was sparring with Kaladin. As we know, Zahel is Vasher from Warbreaker and can use Breath to Awaken objects. Whoever is in Kalak’s chambers obviously has the same ability. I imagine Drew will delve into this a bit more below, so let’s move on.
Kalak thinks he recognizes the man sitting at his desk as one of Adolin’s soldiers, a foreigner with long mustaches and a floppy hat. Then he notices a dagger on the desk. A dagger with a gemstone. Kalak the Herald, king and warrior (once upon a time), whimpers. The man tells him not to worry about the dagger and opens a box, which reveals the seon that Shallan had been using, given to her by Mraize. The timid, frightened little creature that Shallan had freed.
And she’s a bit different than what we saw before. She pops out of the box, bright and confident, telling Felt, the foreigner, how aggravating her experience has been. She didn’t care for Shallan, it would seem, and faked being a frightened, imprisoned “spren” once Shallan rebelled against Mraize. The seon, Ala, has already revealed Mishram’s location to Iyatil and Kelsier, and Kalak realizes that everything he had discussed in front of Shallan has been relayed to the Ghostbloods. He feels a fool for not realizing who the real spy was.
Ala asks Felt if it’s time to use the dagger, but he says they’ll wait as he doesn’t trust the dagger. He notes that Iyatil gave it to him and that he doesn’t work for that “masked witch.” He says that “Lord Kelsier” told him to be careful, so they’ll just sit tight and wait for further instructions. Kalak, though now a prisoner with the threat of death or worse hanging over his head, is actually relieved that at least he didn’t have to make any more decisions. Poor old guy.
In Interlude 2, we see Odium. ::foreboding music:: This interlude is titled “The Divided God” and, indeed, we see that Odium is of two minds as he holds the body of a dying child in a backwater called Tu Bayla. There is a famine and a war raging between the kingdoms of Jah Kaved and Aziri; in the chaos, the government has collapsed and warlords rule.
Cultivation arrives, manifesting as a woman dressed in green and brown, and Odium begins to speak to her, stating that while there is so much to experience with vast power, there’s also so much suffering. He talks of the pain and misery he finds all around him:
“Infinite capacity to see. Infinite capacity to feel. Infinite capacity for agony.”
Odium (“That was not my name, he thought. I cannot lose myself in godhood”) is both “thinking” and “feeling” with the thinking side of him understanding that in the grand scheme of things, suffering is bound to happen and that the universe is complicated. The feeling side of him just wants to weep. And he feels rage. He is, after all, the god of passions. And we know that Taravangian also had a great capacity to feel, and holding the shard of Odium seems to have expanded that capacity.
Odium and Cultivation talk about how much he essentially wants to make people do what he wants them to do. She stresses how important it is to leave them to make their own choices. She tells him he’s forbidden from taking direct action and he states that he could break the pact his predecessor made which would, of course, leave him open to attack. But Odium says he can basically force people to behave and Cultivation tells him that he knows he can’t do that.
“What,” Cultivation said, “do we do instead?”
“You want me to say,” he whispered, “that we create systems—teachings, incentives—that encourage the right decisions. That we prevent war by building up societies where people choose peace. We prevent greed by nurturing governments where the greedy are held accountable. We take time, and we steer, but we do not dominate.”
“Yes.”
Odium then gets angry. He blames his predecessor, Honor, and Cultivation for the state of the world, saying that they had eight thousand years to fix things. He says that he can do better. She tells him to calm the Everstorm and restore peace. He insists that wouldn’t fix it and that it wouldn’t be fixed until there was one god. Cultivation warns him from that path, saying it destroyed his predecessor. He states that he destroyed Rayse and tells her to leave him.
Knowing that she’ll work against him, he tells himself that he is Taravangian and that he holds Odium… that he won’t let it rule. But then he goes on to think about his mission in Karbranth—only now, he’s determined to save them all.
So, Sanderfans… What are your thoughts on these interludes? We know that Shallan is intending to hunt for Mishram, but now she’s going to be racing against Mraize and Iyatil to do so, since they know of her plan thanks to the seon spy. What will become of Kalak? Will Felt kill him, trap his soul, and let him fade into oblivion? How about Taravangian? Can he really hold the shard and not allow Odium to control him? Does anyone really think it’s possible to control Odium? I personally don’t—I think that Taravangian’s mind is already corrupted by Odium—but tell me what you think in the comments!
Lyndsey’s Commentary: Characters and Relationships
Interlude 1, Kalak: Appropriately enough, the herald in all four arches is Kalak (Kelek), patron of the Willshapers. His attributes are Resolute/Builder and his role is Maker. Seeing as how the interlude unfolds from his POV, I don’t think there’s much more analysis that needs to be done here.
Interlude 2, Odium: Nalan (Nale), Herald of Justice, patron of Skybreakers is present in all four arches. His attributes are Just/Confident, and his role is Judge. I believe that Nalan appears here because Toadium is debating the prospect of “justice” on a grand scale, but that’s just my best guess.
Kalak
Eyes closed, he tried to remember the man he’d once been, the hero who had fought for thousands of years. His life seemed a blur, a wash of grey and brown, a fresh painting left out in the storm.
It’s hard to form any sort of psychological analysis on a character who is, for all intents and purposes, immortal. How could we, as simple mortals, possibly understand the mindset of someone who has lived for thousands of years? Yet this is the thing that Sanderson (and many other authors before and most certainly after him) has attempted to portray. There’s something alluring about immortal characters. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know that I’ve always wished to leave something behind me, to not simply disappear when I’m gone. And if there were an option for you, yourself, to continue on? Would you take it? This is prevalent in so many types of fiction, including but not limited to vampires (which I think is part of the reason that they’re so continually alluring).
I have to admit that I was a HUGE fan of the Highlander TV show in my youth (yes, I know about the remake in the works and I have mixed feelings about it), so this is a subject that I may have done more thinking about than most. Who wants to live forever, indeed. The Heralds in Sanderson’s work deal with all the issues that we’d expect from characters who have outlived so many of their loved ones, and they’ve paid the price for their longevity. Most of them are barely hanging on to their sanity… if they are at all. And in this chapter, Kalak is confronted with the very real possibility of his existence ending. He clearly wants to continue living, and who can blame him for that? But Kelsier and his Ghostbloods have other plans for him, which I’m certain Drew will get into below.
Taravangian/Odium (I also like to refer to him as Toadium)
Quick note that this interlude takes place in Tu Bayla, which is here.
That was not my name, he thought. I cannot lose myself in godhood…
Odium wept for them, and—having formed a body from his infinite essence—held one little boy close.
And:
I can see to the ends of the cosmere. I can see the lives of people great and small. I had thought this wonderful, with so much to experience, but now I find only suffering.
And:
“I am the very substance of passion, and where a person suffers anywhere in this miserable galaxy, I feel it. That is the burden of this power.”
Hoo boy. Lots to unpack here. Taravangian was always willing to do whatever it took to do what he saw as protecting his people, and now that definition of “his people” has broadened to the entirety of the Cosmere. I see some interesting parallels here between his ideas about creating harmony in the universe and Thanos in the MCU. They both have good intentions, theoretically: saving people and removing strife. However, their methods of achieving said intentions are problematic on so many levels. Can you save half the universe by killing the other half? Sure. Can you save a kingdom by hiring an assassin to eliminate other world leaders, thereby distracting them from your own country? Yup. Is it ethical to do either? Depends on your perspective, doesn’t it?
It’s the classic trolley problem played out on a universal scale. (For those unfamiliar, see the wiki article here.)
I’ve often said that I appreciate Taravangian as a villain because he exemplifies the “I don’t see myself as a villain” trope, and his ascension to godhood has heightened this. He now has access to near omnipresence and omnipotence (with some limitations), and seeing what he does with them is going to be fascinating. (And horrifying, I’m sure.) Are there any right answers to this dilemma? Well, he sure thinks he has one:
By directly intervening on such a granular level, he risked creating a society where no one learned, and where society did not progress. By supernaturally forbidding warlords, he would also stifle scientists and artists. By removing the capacity for violence, he would also remove the capacity for mercy.
And:
“There is a spectrum of choice that can be allowed,” he said. “No society can persist with complete freedom, and growth can happen within limits. I can make it so that free will exists to an acceptable state, while also preventing famines.”
Now HERE’s a really fascinating moral debate. Can limitations on freedom create a better society?
Well, the existence of laws would certainly indicate that to be so. Society enforces limitations on freedom in all sorts of ways, thereby creating a more equitable and safe society for all. But Toadium appears to be planning to remove free choice entirely, by removing the very ability to even think of or do certain things. Is this crossing the line? Or is it an acceptable loss in order to remove the possibility of violence, bloodshed, and death? Does it lessen the impact of kindness, to remove the capacity for violence? Does that even matter when what’s at stake is human life?
I leave it to you in the comments to debate. Because I honestly don’t have an answer.
Drew’s Commentary: Invested Arts and Theories
Our first set of interludes comes out of the gate hard with some eye-opening Cosmere and Investiture implications. Nearly straight away in the Kalak interlude, we get a potential bomb dropped on us:
Without Ishar holding some of it back… it would have destroyed him long ago.
Somehow (almost certainly through Ishar’s uniquely powerful command of Connection), it seems that Ishar is directly helping the other Heralds by shielding them from the insanity that plagues them all. This is a huge revelation, to be honest, as it not only has direct impact on the current conflict on Roshar, but also opens up potential utility for all long-lived people and Cognitive Shadows across the Cosmere.
Vasher and Hoid are notably dealing with their long lives, and the crushing weight of memory, by storing memories in Breaths. That’s a fairly accessible source of Investiture, and less traumatic to acquire than some, but it’s still a limited resource. However Ishar is helping out the other Heralds, it might be something anyone with sufficient knowledge of Connection could do.
It makes you wonder if, somewhere on Scadrial, a certain spiked survivor has been directing his minions to keep an eye on Ishar…
“Well hello, Herald,” said a man sitting at Kalak’s desk. “If you don’t mind, I have a few questions.”
Because he’s certainly having his agents keep an eye on Kalak!
All this time, Felt has been a Ghostblood. It seems so obvious in hindsight (he is from Scadrial, after all) but this caught me off-guard. On top of his apparent loyalty to Kelsier—specifically to Kelsier, not to Iyatil or Mraize—Felt has a secret arsenal of Invested power. He may not be an Allomancer or Feruchemist, but he sure has a stash of Breaths and knows what he’s doing when it comes to Awakening.
Immediately, the drapes from the window beside the door seized him, wrapping around him like two grasping hands, pulling him tight. They’d been cut into strange shapes.
No wonder Felt was such an effective scout and soldier that Dalinar took him on important missions like the trip to the Valley.
But that’s not all we get in these interludes, oh no. No no no. We get Odium. We get the Divided God.
It has been a burning question in the Stormlight fandom since the day Rhythm of War came out: Does Taravangian’s boon/curse still hold?
In my mind, this interlude shows that it does—to an extent. Ascension has clearly changed the game, but Taravangian is still wrestling with what’s essentially a split personality. He is challenged by the powerful emotions that allowed him Connection to the Shard of Odium in the first place, and the “capacity to save humankind” that gave him such tremendous powers of thought and intuition.
He may be uniquely dangerous as a Vessel for Odium, but that doesn’t mean we have some Mega-Moriarty situation here; he isn’t a ruthless, coldhearted mastermind. However, that doesn’t make him less dangerous, but rather unstable. He may have difficulty managing his long-term plans, but this could make him more capable of short-term, catastrophic decision-making.
And, hmm, would you call ten days “short term” for a Shard?
I’ll leave you with this tidbit from Vargodium:
“Because you killed your father, and now worry the same will happen to you.”
What do we think? Is he talking about Adonalsium, or something more personal that he plucked from the depths of Cultivation’s presence in the Spiritual Realm?
Fan Theories
Lyn: Over on Reddit, there hasn’t been a ton of discussion on chapters 12 and 13. Not as much as in previous chapters, anyway—though I expect there will be a TON for this week’s chapter. I would like to point out this theory that caught my eye though, by TheBigFreeze8:
There are a lot of parallels between Vin and the mist and Kaladin and the wind. Both have a unique connection to their chosen, uh, gas, to the extent where it even seems to respond physically to them in unique ways.
If a shard can invest some of its power as mist, why couldn’t God themselves invest some of their power as wind?
Reddit comment of the week for me goes to this one—I’m simply linking to it here because you all need to go over to see it for yourselves and upvote it.
We’ll be keeping an eye on the comment sections of posts about this article on various social media platforms and may include some of your comments/speculation (with attribution) on future weeks’ articles! Keep the conversation going, and PLEASE remember to spoiler-tag your comments on social media to help preserve the surprise for those who choose to wait for the full release. See you next Monday with chapters 14 and 15! (Also, go and check out Lyn’s FB author page for a little special something that she’s going to be giving away this week…)
The Divided God Interlude was really something. You have basically two roughly omniscient deities arguing about theodicy, the discussion of whether and on what terms God remains just in creating a world in which suffering persists. I was doing a read-through of the prophet Isaiah about the time that RoW came out, and I felt that Taravangian’s “he would save them all” felt terribly familiar to me. To have what amounts to Adonalsium’s wrath arguing pointedly that the gods of the cosmere have done something genuinely wrong in their setup of the world, wrong enough to be executed for, even, provides a really pointed drama to a very old, occasionally tedious, theological debate.
As someone who just graduated from (Protestant evangelical, so not quite the same background as Sanderson, but still) seminary last spring, I’m very excited to see how this will continue playing in this book.
Yup, it’s some heady stuff. I’m more familiar with Catholic theology on this topic but it’s interesting to ponder.
We aren’t supposed to discuss religion but how can we avoid it when it’s what Brandon is writing?
(Greek) Orthodox Christian theology teaches that God did not create evil and suffering, that humans brought suffering into the world by not obeying God’s one “rule” to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He gave us free will because He wants us to love Him of our own accord, but that also gave us the freedom to choose to do wrong (WE CHOSE!). Choosing is obviously a HUGE theme for Brandon. Cultivation is right. Taking freedom of choice will eventually hurt societies.
Catholic theology is similar. I know Calvinists believe in the “sovereignty” of God and predestination, so argue in favor of the idea that God is responsible for evil. However, I’m pretty sure most strands of Christianity agree with the Catholic/Orthodox perspective and not the Calvinist perspective.
Interesting things to me: Even ascended, with the immense mental resources and knowledge of a Shard, Taravangian considers Odium to the ‘god’ of passion, not the god of hatred. Is it possible this is actually the case and Odium is a misnomer?
To me, his nature as ‘the divided god’ doesn’t say Cultivation’s Boon/Curse is still in effect, it says it was to prepare him for this state, when he’d have to balance to immense feelings of Odium with the colossal intellect of shardhood.
Little as one wants to side with an immortal shard of god embodying His divine hatred, Cultivation’s theodicies leave me pretty cold. I don’t think humanity’s curiosity and inventiveness *would* be stunted without the constant threat of violence and starvation. I think creativity and intellectual curiosity are constant. And anyway, what’s the point of progress if not to alleviate such suffering? Why is safety bad if it’s god given?
If think the weakness of this argument (and whether the narrative will ultimately criticise or endorse is it is very much yet to be seen) comes from the fact that it’s based on arguments in our, real, world that account for the pre-existing condition that god, if there is a god, does not intervene to prevent to such suffering. So we have to invent reasons why. Whereas the Cosmere is people with immensely powerful gods who do exist and do get involved, to greater or lesser extents. You can’t peddle theodicy in a world like that.
I think Cultivation explained that the boon/curse was to prepare Taravangian for the seemingly unique challenge of being the vessel for Odium. What we’re seeing now is that actual experience and not remnants of her “gift”.
This is exactly what I think. What Cultivation gave Taravangian was only a preview. Now he has to balance the power of pretty much infinite vision that comes with any shard and the infinite capacity for empathy/passion/emotion which is the specific attribute of Odium’s shard.
I think it’s pretty clearly Adonalsium. I’m interested to know how this passage will read when the book is translated into other languages that make the distinction, but my sense is that the “you” and “your” in “you killed your father” are plural pronouns. Look at the immediately preceding passages:
Odium is referring to the actions of both Honor and Cultivation, and then more broadly to the rest of the Shards. Then “you killed your father” is a direct response to “we give people choice.”
To paraphrase, it feels like the conversation is:
But me in the side of “your father” was referring to Adonalsium and not Koravellium Avast’s birth/adopted father.
I am not sure this is 100% about Adonalsium’s death.
Based on the conversation, T-Odium could be referring to her action (or inaction) that caused her humanoid/actual father to die long ago. And how he wants to prevent things like that from happening, though his action.
Or it could refer to Honour, who many people theorize that Cultivation has a hand in his death. Just not sure why he would be considered her father (perhaps father figure or even the vessel).
The vessel of cultivation is koravellium avast. Tanavast being her father doesn’t seem out of the question. This would be a big reveal and implicate cultivation as a commerce villain far more than we expected…
They were a romantic (married?) couple. Also, as far as we know Tanavast had been originally human, while Koravellium is a dragon.
They were, indeed.
“Prior to her Ascension, Koravellium was a dragon; however, she seems to prefer human form when interacting with others as a Shard.”
Source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Koravellium_Avast
My comments to Interludes 1 and 2
Interlude 1
· I think this might be the first Interlude we have had from the POV of a Herald. We have had other Interludes that had Heralds in them. The ones with Ash always had someone else as the POV character. There have been scenes in chapters that have had the POV of a Herald. However, I do not believe those were in the Interludes.
· SA is the only Cosmere works I read, although I am somewhat Cosmere aware beyond Roshar. From on-line discussions I have seen, I knew that Felt was a worldhopper. For those who are very Cosmere knowledgeable, did any of you see Felt still working for Kelsier (and the Ghostbloods)? Did anyone see Ala faking being a timid seon? I did not see either reveal in this Interlude coming. I wonder how long Felt has been an agent of Kelsier? Was he an agent since he first came to Roshar? If so, why did Kelsier want Felt to be associated with Dalinar? If Felt was not always an agent of Kelsier while on Roshar, when did Kelsier recruit Felt? I hope I get my answers to at least some of my questions in WaT.
Interlude 2
· Interesting. It appears that Todium’s Ascension did not relieve him of the Boon/Curse Cultivation gave him. I guess that means Cultivation’s magic works on the soul at the spiritual level and not on the physical level.
· It will not be Cultivation or any other Shard that kills Todium; it will be hubris. A force that even in the Cosmere may be just as strong as any Shard.
· Which would be worse: Taravangian as the vessel of Odium or Kelsier as the vessel as Odium? I could see that Taravangian dying by the end of this book. And in the epilogue, Kelsier is able to pick up Odium. Perhaps instead of using the dagger on Kalak (or any other Herald), someone uses the dagger on Odium. Unlike a Herald, the dagger is able to hold on to the essence of Odium without it passing to the beyond. That person brings the dagger to Kelsier who now becomes the third Odium. Long live KOdium.
I noticed a small detail when the child died. His spirit was visible to Todium for a moment before it passed to where he could NOT see it. Interesting that Todium can’t see into what I assume is the actual Spiritual Realm. That leads to wondering what else is not visible to the Shards—like is there a core part of Adonalsium, a 17th Shard if you will, hidden from the 16 Shard holders. Is that Dalinar’s God Beyond?
The Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are different things, at least from everything we’ve learned previously. It’s even mentioned in an earlier chapter of WaT that the Spriitual Realm is where the gods live. The Beyond is specifically where people go after they die, and that’s what neither Odium or any other shard can see into. Even they don’t know what happens after death.
TOdium can see into the spirit realm, the kid’s soul went to the Beyond, where everyone goes when they die; shards and humans alike. The god beyond is the idea that there is some deity beyond the capacity of the shards to see that is watching out for the rest of the cosmere, and knows what happens when you reach the afterlife.
Hmm. So at the end of RoW we wondered if Cultivation was being naive to think tOdium wouldn’t be up to his old shenanigans haha but turns out she knew he would be trouble.. Just better than Rayse haha.
Love that they’re exploring all the problems and issues Harmony faced for the last 3 centuries. tOdium complains but he doesn’t have to deal with two opposing shards haha.
This definitely goes a long way to explore why he decided to just continue the war. I’m looking forward to seeing him contact his old diagram people and have them crap their pants.
But I figured it wouldnt be til act 2 or later that the gang find out he ascended. Renarin might know since he brought the gems, Cultivation could probably tell SF about it. It’s nice to get confirmation she has been involved in things this whole time.
But really have no idea where it’s heading leading into the timeskip, if he stays the main villain or not.
As much as I hate felt being a ghostblood, he’s been a fan favorite worldhopper for a reason. As long as he doesn’t kill Kalak I’m hoping they do find a way to help Kelsier and the heralds go offworld.
The epigraphs do say the heralds all vanished..maybe they all left haha, if it isn’t just tied to an oathpact thing
I was also reeeeally curious about that line that Ishar is helping to contain their supernatural insanity, is that why he was the most unhinged one by far? In damnation they could share the pain, probably uses the same function. If Kal cures him would that help them all?
Paige: I don’t think Felt will kill Kalak, but I do not have good feelings about Kalak’s future.
I do not think at all that Taravangian is himself, and that he is actually Odium. Beyond corrupted even before he became Odium.
Lyndsey: The ethical issues in these two interludes are insane. I don’t think Odium will remove free will because that, IMO, would be the end of existence (unless we got a WOT-style flicker-flicker-flicker/ “I have won Lews Therin” of a possibility).
Drew: I had to look up who Felt was. I love how so many minor characters just end up having insane impacts later on in different series. But yes, no wonder why he was so efficient with both Elend and Dalinar!
While I didn’t think about whether or not the boon/curse still held with the ascension to godhood, I didn’t not think it. I like that it’s not simply there, but that it’s at a more Cosmere level.
I appreciate both arguments about the boon, and the overall takeaway is the Cultivation cultivates.
So it doesn’t particularly matter if her boon persists past ascension or not, her Intent was to cultivate a better Vessel for that particular Shard; either through the learning experience of the division of intellect and emotion as a preparatory act, or to carry the boon past ascension to give TOdium the ability to bifurcate and see where passionate reasoning leads to flawed motivations and outcomes.
I also think her complete loss of thinking outside the box of her Shard is the reason she prepared another Shard bearer after Odium was separated from Rayse, rather than hide it away so that no one else takes it up.
TOdium is right, Cultivation just made her decision to work another few thousand years with a different strategy to cultivate another Vessel. She’s stuck in her Intent pattern, just like all the other Shards.
The bummer is Cultivation can’t see that it will lead to the same result again and again, because no Vessel can tolerate the suffering of the entire universe perfectly without the balance of the other Shard’s. The bigger bummer is T is already under the influence of Intent and can’t see beyond his own final solution. The biggest bummer of the Cosmere is none of the other Vessels followed Hoid’s example. Just put the Shard down, you’re not the big “G” (or “A” or “Beyond”) God, and you never will be.
while we don’t know the motivations of the rest of the 16, i will cut Sazed some slack for taking up the shards and holding on to them. without them Scadriel would be destroyed and without his touch, the people of the Elendel basin would have gone through a lot of suffering. It also proves that the shards need each other to function; because he can’t do too much because of the contrsating shards, people were able to grow and be better.
There is a theory that immortality precludes change. This doesn’t necessarily mean that an immortal being’s self is frozen in amber or what-have-you, but that any corruption to the nature of that being is irreversible. In a Christian context, this means that celestial powers which rebel cannot repent, and that the loss of immortality for mankind was in fact a mercy from God which enabled repentance and, ultimately, salvation. The degree to which this understanding might inform Sanderson’s take on the various immortal entities in the Cosmere is yet unknown, but it could be a useful viewpoint to incorporate into discussions about them. You already have examples of immortals’ traits becoming “locked in” and exaggerated, such as the extreme behaviors of the Fused, as well as similar effects on the Heralds. A return to mortality might allow for healing, even as it also allows for destruction.
Regarding free will, especially in the context of Todium’s arguments, and in a context where the divine will is assumed to be real (even if fragmented), the Orthodox Christian understanding holds that mankind exists on a spiritual spectrum, with free will being vital and necessary to movement on that spectrum. There are two extremes: theosis and demonosis. The goal (or telos) of human life is theosis: to become more like the divine, as man is called to be holy even as the Father is holy. The demons (rebel spiritual powers) seek to lure humans into becoming like them. Every human life, then, is a struggle between the impulse to strive for virtue and holiness against the impulse to be selfish, wicked, and demonic. For one of these god fragments to curtail free will would be to limit the damage, perhaps, but also to limit the potential of mankind to pursue its created purpose.
Once you look at Roshar’s history, the question of free will becomes even more crucial. When the Singers had their free will taken away, it turned them into Parshmen. When the Parshendi take in void spren and attain the forms of power, their free will is curtailed and so is their capacity to choose virtue over wickedness. If Todium were to do something similar to humans, perhaps by changing the metaphysical rules of the Cosmere after becoming ascendant over what remains of the other god fragments, then IMO you’d see similar outcomes. The average human would become akin to the Parshmen, while those with some degree of Investiture would be closer to the voidspren-controlled Parshendi.
I know the intent behind the change in the re-read format was to drive a greater level of engagement, but I don’t think it’s working. Comments appear to be trending down, not up. A big reason I come here is to read the analysis side, it increases my enjoyment of the series since I don’t usually have the time to catch the little things or to see how elements of the story relate to one another.
I guess we shall see what the Reactor powers that be decide as this process continues on and I do miss the old format. I also appreciate the efforts of our Authors/Commentarians?Comentari? Eh, English is all about bending the rules, I’ll go with Commentarians.
Here’s my two cents as somebody who is perpetually disgruntled about this (and stayed away from the site for months because of it but I missed y’all too much) but I do not think the problem is with the new structure of the re-read itself (I actually do like the new structure as I found the conversational format last time to be a little full of fluff at times, and I like how each section here is broken out into its own topic) but I find the comment functionality on the new site to be REALLY aggravating to work with.
That said I did just discover the subscription functionality so hopefully that will help me keep track of conversations.
I also find the comment functionality (the layout, in particular) to be aggravating to work with. Take your post, for example; it’s the most recent reply to CireNaes’ post, and it shows up at the “top” of the replies for me (right next to the original post), but for non-reply posts the most recent post appears at the bottom of the page. So there’s a lot of mental gymnastics trying to track the flow of conversation, and to try to find where new posts are since I last viewed the page. I end up using the browser’s “find in page” functionality to search for “hours ago”, “1 day ago”, “2 days ago”, etc. and see what I might have missed.
We’re doing our best to drive engagement! I know the Reactor people see these comments, so your concerns are being heard.
I agree with you @CireNaes. I like the way the comments were structured in the old format. They made it easier to read the older comments. Maybe I am just an old man who hates change, but often times I think companies make change for change sakes even if something is working well. Guess I will have to deal with it.
These comment threads are unusable when there are many comments. How are you supposed to find one or two new comments in over 100 when there is no way to sort them chronologically?
I’ll add my two cents in – I agree, especially from a mobile phone it’s very difficult to follow the discussion. I’d rather scroll up and down to find the relevant comment number, tbh. And, for context ,like the old timers here, I’ve been following along live the discussions since Oathbringer pre-release read along, which was great! A little harder to follow now, tbh. Just logged in via PC and am seeing lots of comments I missed.
I also like the in-text dissussions of prior format, where we, the readers,tagged along and continued said discussion in comments. Feels more involved and organic, tbh. That aside, thank you so much Paige,Lyndesy and Drew for taking so much of your time over the years and putting in the effort to write these- truly enjoyable,and really looking to the
ThurdayMonday upload!On much more interesting note, what a ride with the Interludes! How can he do it, raising the stakes, after all the books and interludes? Ridiculous!
Really like the discussion between Toidum and Cultivation, Interetsing, that I really noticed just now how they address each other by their Shard names – although I know that in the letters occaisonally there was an interchange between Intent and Shardholder name.
Sucks re Felt – I hoped he would have a diffent agenda, but it makes perfect sense. Shocking with the scion: as others have noted, in Elantris they really seemed to take Devotion as a mandate and be ostensibly happy with it. (And that is despite WoBs re skaze doing behind the scenes manipulations.)
Finally, had a thought that Syl and Wind are the same, or much more related than it seems. Currently doing a reread and almost finished book 2 – it’s ridiculous how often “wind” is mentioned everywhere, yet was a complete surpise in this book. I’ve actually noted in one place some time ago trying to guess who is wind (was thinking one of the Shards or big splinters) as it seemed highly suspicious how it was helping Kaladin in that 4 v 1 arena fight.
I’ve got to admit, I kind of like Ala. After Shallan and Wit were feeling so confident about beating the Ghostbloods, I like that she was playing them all along. It’s not interesting if the good guys are always ahead.
I liked it from the perspective that these sources of sentient investiture can have their own agenda or motivations, seemingly able to make the choice of who to work with. etc… In Elantris, they seemed more like docile / subservient / slave type creatures, here they seem more akin to the sentient Spren, which I had assumed were more unique in their freedom.
This could lead to interesting dynamics with all the various sentient forms of investiture.
man, i want a elantris sequel so we can know more about the seons. I remember that the book did bring up several questions about them; especially if they like being treated like slaves or servants. clearly, they are more independent than we thought
The discussion between Odium and Cultivation really made me flash back to Rand and the Dark One at the end of Wheel of Time. We saw all those variations of what the world would be without evil, or without choice/free will, or without knowledge of evil, etc… I feel in some ways this is the same argument, and will have the same conclusion, although that doesn’t necessarily have to be the case since it’s a very different world.
In the previous books, Taravangian scared me. someone who could feel so much and still commit so much cruelty.
now that he’s ascended to godhood, he *terrifies* me
Right? He’s truly scary now.
Haven’t seen anyone say this, but Todium insisting that he can limit freedom to “an acceptable level” while limiting suffering positions him directly opposed to Autonomy, who has been hinted at as being the other big, bad, world hopping deity. If Todium persists, or worse wins the contest of champions, could that frame the second half of Stormlight? His crusade against Autonomy?
I find this fascinating in particular: “By directly intervening on such a granular level, he risked creating a society where no one learned, and where society did not progress.”
We’ve seen that first-hand with the Lord Ruler in Mistborn. A stable ‘final’ empire in Era 1 where everything had been locked into a sort of stasis for centuries, compared to the rapid change in Era 2, only a hundred or so years after the fall of that Empire. It makes me very curious where Sanderson is going with Era 3 and the back half of Stormlight Archives.
I know this is mainly relevant to the last book. But I thought that everyone here might get a kick out of seeing plates sand and a bow in action. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C9Kw1CVpyM6/?igsh=bmdvYWR0Z2N5eGRv
Interestingly, when I first read interlude 2, I kept thinking that the ‘predecessor’ tOdium was referring to was Adonalsium (and so Cultivation’s warning applied to something Ado had done), but it makes way more sense that he just means Rayse, haha. Which I guess implies Rayse was also going for total domination?
It definitely is a common trope/moral quandary – the paradox of trying to use control (or annihilation) to ‘stop’ suffering. Is the lack of suffering meaningful if it is only because there is no other option? Is Good something that exists on its own? How is virtue defined?
I was interested to note the header in odiums chapter has the sword king both ways around. Wasn’t it a sword king and. Vine king in previous books?