Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we got our first look into Shallan’s past, with the flashback to Red Carpet, Once White, and the accompanying debates about where Pattern went, who killed Brightlady Davar’s friend, and whether sympathy for Brightlord Davar is in order. This week, we return to the present where Shallan, waterlogged from having Soulcast her ride in the middle of the ocean, struggles to use what she’s learned to somehow survive.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance (a.k.a. TWoK and WoR, respectively), and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Come join us as we learn how important perception is, and how satisfactory a flameless life can be.
Chapter 11: An Illusion of Perception
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: the Frostlands, near the Shallow Crypts
Symbology: Pattern, Battar
IN WHICH Shallan finds herself not dead; the santhid disappears over the horizon; Shallan unwillingly faces facts; Pattern finds Jasnah’s waterproofed trunk as the only other survivor nearby; Shadesmar is precariously accessed; a stick is exceedingly contented; Shallan is exceptionally tenacious (also exceptionally cold); a slaver is opportunely located; Jasnah is successfully emulated; and the trek to the Shattered Plains continues.
Quote of the Week:
“The santhid. It rescued me.” How had it known what to do? Were they intelligent? Could she have somehow communicated with it? Had she missed an opportunity to—
She almost started laughing as she realized the direction her thoughts were going. She’d nearly drowned, Jasnah was dead, the crew of the Wind’s Pleasure likely murdered or swallowed by the sea! Instead of mourning them or marveling at her survival, Shallan was engaging in scholarly speculation?
That’s what you do, a deeply buried part of herself accused her. You distract yourself. You refuse to think about things that bother you.
But that was how she survived.
Ouch. After last week, just… Ouch! Perfect juxtaposition, with this last simple statement. What we saw of her past in Chapter 10 seemed incongruous with what we’d seen of (most of) her character in TWoK; even on a first read, those six words illuminate the dichotomy instantly, if incompletely. As we proceed through WoR, we’ll see more of her voluntary amnesia as a coping mechanism. This is what gave me confidence to tell people, “I can’t guarantee you’ll like Shallan after WoR, but I can guarantee you’ll see her differently.”
Also? I love the way Brandon uses “Shallan thinking like a scholar” to disguise the occasional infodump. He does it twice in this chapter, and I only noticed it this time around. Heh.
Commentary: Here’s Shallan, washed up on a rock after she thought she was going to drown. As a non-swimmer myself, I was heartily sympathetic (and a little amused) at the way she managed to get to shore and then realized after the fact that there may have been more to fear than just the water. Poor girl. It’s a good thing Jasnah’s trunk washed up so close to her; it contains a great deal of information that she’s going to need once she reaches the Shattered Plains, as well as the money and Stormlight she’s going to need in The Immediate Future. (Smart santhid. Good santhid…)
I do wish Shallan had thought to use more than one sphere for her attempt at Soulcasting. Whether it would have helped or not, it would at least have reduced her injuries and exhaustion, and perhaps let her think more clearly. She doesn’t know enough yet to have thought of that, and it’s perfectly realistic—and better for the story—the way it is. It’s just… ::sigh:: I wish she didn’t have to hurt so much.
It’s an interesting swirl of possibilities: if she hadn’t needed Stormlight to Soulcast, she probably never would have drawn it in, but if she had drawn it in and not entered Shadesmar, it would have gone farther toward healing her. If she’d succeeded in making a fire, she wouldn’t have been in such danger of hypothermia, but she also wouldn’t have kept moving and looking for another fire. Oh, the fun you can have with good story-crafting!
So. Shallan kept moving, and found our friendly neighborhood slavers Tvlakv & Co., Ltd., along with a dilemma—trust these clearly-untrustworthy men, or freeze/starve to death in the middle of nowhere? This is an instance where the physical class distinction is convenient for Our Heroes, because a slaver would hesitate to abuse or enslave a lighteyed woman. There’s the chance of good money to be had by delivering her safe and sound; additionally, it’s a safe bet that a slaver caught with a captive lighteyes would be in bottomless kimchee. With slavery out of the question, they could either rape and murder her, or help her. For a “merchant” worth his salt, helping was clearly the more lucrative option, but what direction would his “help” take her? To the Shallow Crypts, or to the Shattered Plains? This time the illusion of perception worked, because Shallan (sort of) knew how to make people accept her authority: by imitating Jasnah.
The preparation for this scene harks all the way back to Chapter 1, when Jasnah explained power as a matter of perception. Shallan tried it then, in a minor incident: she wanted to see the santhid underwater, so she imitated Jasnah and induced Tozbek to let her do so, even though he’d refused earlier. Her success there made it possible for her to use the same technique here, with enough confidence that she actually pulled it off.
Sprenspotting: Pattern is oddly hesitant in Shadesmar this time; he doesn’t seem to know much, and doesn’t give Shallan much help other than translating and urging her to hurry. He even comments that “I am from here, yet I remember so little…” Is this due to his increasing presence, maturity, or consciousness in the physical realm? Or something else?
Incidentally, when Pattern takes his natural form in Shadesmar, he casts a shadow the wrong way, toward the “sun.” I have some ideas about this, but I’d like to hear yours first. How does this relate to the other misbehaving shadows?
We also see another instance of spren taking vastly different forms in the physical vs. cognitive realms, with the exhaustionspren circling Shallan. Here, in Shadesmar, they are described as large, birdlike, dark grey, seeming to have no specific shape, their forms blurry. Elsewhere they are described in the physical realm as swirls or jets of dust, dizzy-looking, rising from the ground and spinning about a human. What’s really intriguing is that when described by a Parshendi, “they came with a sound like wind, blowing in through the windows and doors like jets of translucent vapor before becoming stronger, more visible, and spinning around her head like swirls of steam.” I realize that this last bit is a discussion for another time (about three weeks from now) but… I leave you to reflect on the implications.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: I like that santhid. It made distinct eye contact with Shallan the first time, it proved the stories that santhidyn sometimes stay with a ship for days, and it brought her safely to shore. While we don’t know for sure that it was responsible for bringing Jasnah’s trunk to the same place, it did end up nearby. Just how intelligent are these things? Is Investiture involved? Are they at all similar to the Ryshadium? Or the Greatshells? (We’ll talk about those more in a few weeks, too—Rysn’s Interlude is coming shortly.)
Ars Arcanum:
“Sticks need Stormlight. For… things…”
…
Shallan stared at that pile of sticks, feeling utterly useless. What was it Jasnah had said? Control is the basis of all true power? Authority and strength are matters of perception? Well, this was a direct refutation of that. Shallan could imagine herself as grand, could act like a queen, but that didn’t change a thing out here in the wilderness.
Remember this conversation? “I am a stick.” Shallan pled with it, offered it the “opportunity” to be fire, tried to convince it that it wanted to burn—and it sat there complacently being a stick. Even after umpteen readings, I’m torn between feeling awful for poor, cold, tired, miserable Shallan, and laughing at her repeated, insufficient attempts to induce this stubborn stick to burn. The argument she used with the ship was far more compelling: sacrifice yourself to save the lives of those you’ve served so well. (The ship also seemed more… intelligent.) For the stick, there’s no reason to become fire and then cease to exist. Why would sticks need Stormlight, anyway?
The point, of course, is that instead of assuming authority over the stick, she tried to manipulate it. As a born manipulator, I understand this, but she’s wrong; persuading the stick to want to be fire was never going to work, and her failure is not a refutation of Jasnah’s explanation. To quote Karen Ahlstrom from the beta, “Maybe her timidity is the problem. I’m certain that when Jasnah Soulcast the robbers in WOK they didn’t want to change.” Yeah, pretty sure about that…
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?:
The map is interesting in itself, both from a technical standpoint and in terms of Shallan’s relative location. I love Isaac Stewart’s maps and illustrations; he has a distinct style for each in-world source (as well as for different cultures on different worlds), and I wish I were artist enough to fully appreciate the level of research and expertise he brings to his work.
The reason the map is in this unit, though, is the in-story cartographer: our old buddy Nazh. We’ve talked about him before; his task seems to be collecting information for a female friend. Mostly I’m pointing out his existence here, but there’s one thing to add. My standing theory is that he works for Khriss, who seems to be a (very long-lived!) research scholar from Taldain (White Sand). However, in a recent Goodreads Q&A, someone asked Brandon who is the oldest character we know, and he replied, “Frost is almost certainly the oldest by a small amount. After that, Hoid.” All we know about Frost is that he/she/it is a character from Dragonsteel, a book/series which currently exists in partial form and is kept in great secrecy as containing colossal spoilers. My current curiosity is whether Frost may be the “old reptile” trading letters with Hoid in TWoK and WoR, and also whether she is the one for whom Nazh collects information.
While I think the first part of that is probable, I think Khriss makes more sense as Nazh’s contact. But I thought I’d toss it out for y’all to bash.
Heraldic Symbolism: For the first time, we see the white-on-black Pattern icon which graces the remainder of Shallan’s current-time PoV chapters. I’ll admit that, until travyl pointed it out, I hadn’t noticed that the flashback icons in both books are negative images of the real-time icons. Slick.
The Herald is Battar, associated with the attributes of Wise/Careful, the Elsecallers, and the role of Counsellor. I would hazard a guess that she’s here because of Shallan’s efforts to emulate Jasnah’s way of dealing with people—and, perhaps, with her failure to emulate Jasnah’s approach to Soulcasting that stubborn stick.
Okay, that’s gotten a bit long-winded, so I’ll stop. Have fun in the comments!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?
Great post!
I belive the Santhid, like the Greatshells, are bound to Spren. It allows them to grow to the sizes they do and survive. Brandon mentioned something like this in a Q&A somewhere.
I really need to reread Dragonsteel now. It’s been so long, that I didn’t even remember who Frost was!
It’s quite ironic to have Battar heading a Shallan chapter (especially one without Jasnah). Shallan is certainly not wise (smart, yes. wise? not so much), and is the exact opposite of careful. Maybe the attributes are for this chapter because the stick is wise and careful. I love that stick, good ole’ stubborn stick.
The Santhid is awesome, and I want more details about them. They’re like dolphins in that they follow ships, and are apparently extremely intelligent. Later on, we see that Mraize has the skull of a santhid= he’s clearly worldly (other-worldly) and collects many interesting artifacts, so clearly they are quite important.
Nazh is a curiosity to me as well. I am constantly wondering if he/she is in the background of real-time scenes, after all, in order to have maps of this sort of thing, Nazh has to be observing Our Heroes very closely. Is s/he in the group of slavers? Do we know all of their names?
The desire to read Dragonsteel itches, because we’re bound to know so much about the Cosmere after reading it.
Am I alone in hoping Sanderson will eventually write an Avengers-style team-up, featuring the best & brightest heroes from Roshar, from Scadrial, from Nalthis, from Sel, etc, all fighting each other or some greater evil, Worldhopper style? THE COSMERE’S MIGHTIEST HEROES
The stick, my favorite character (how weird is that?).
I’m reminded of the Community episode where Jeff breaks a pencil and the rest of the group all dies a little inside.
Alice, I do not think the snathid brought the trunk. I like the theory that someone proposed on the Brandon reading of his new scene (Involving a character who is mentioned by name in Chapter 11 but not on screen).
The theory is that Jasnah moved the bead for the trunk to the beach — whether she knew that Shallan would survive or not, I do not know. Also, I hope that it was not me who suggested this theory. Otherwise that would make me sound like a fool.
Shallan observation that about herself that “you refuse to think about things that bother you” is spot on for Shallan up to this point. Given how Shallan grows as a person in WoR, I wonder if she would still believe that about herself by the end of the book.
IMO, I think she somewhat does. I think that this is one of the reasons that Pattern required her remember how her mother died. I think Shallan’s overcoming of this part of her personality will allow her to become a more comple Knight Radiant.
I am not saying this is the only obstacle that Shallan needs to overcome. Rather, it is a major one. I am not sure it is the most important one, by the way. FWIIW, I think the most important obstacle she overcame was her hangup with Shallon’s own authority. I feel once she learned Jasnah’s lesson from Chapter 1, she became the person who could do all she accomplished in WoR.
As I am starting to ramble, this is a good time to stop commenting. Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
MDNY @2 – Sometimes the Herald icons are chosen for an associated Madness (but I have no idea what those are) or, IIRC, for an inversion of the Herald’s attributes. (Or … those might be the same thing. Dunno.) That may be what’s going on here.
ETA: Andrew @5 – I’d forgotten about that theory. It may be possible; I don’t know what the effect of moving a bead in Shadesmar has on the object in the physical world. It sounds cool, anyway.
@1 AhoyMatey,
HOW DID YOU READ DRAGONSTEEL?
@3 SerDragonReborn- Were you in on our conversation forever ago about who would win in Cosmere tournament-style fights? (e.g. Steel Inquisitor vs Mistborn vs. Feuchemist vs Elantrian vs. Radiant, etc… in a round-robin contest).
@8 MDNY- I was not in on that conversation, no! If it happened more than a three months ago, I simply missed it because I wasn’t a member and did not usually read the comments. What were the results?
@7 Through the generosity of His Awesomeness, The World Spanning Peter Ahlstrom. And sheer dumb luck. A few Jordancons ago, I asked Peter if I could have an old unpublished novel to read. And he said, “Pick one, and I’ll tell you if you can have it.” I happened to pick Dragonsteel.
Brandon has stated that it’s rough, but I think it’s still a really awesome story. It was cool see the shattered plains as they were originally envisaged.
@9 No conclusions, just lots of fun speculation (I still think a Steel Inquisitor vs a KR is the most probable final match)
Wetlander, Thank you for the description of the exhaustion spren! I have been wanting to look that up, but my copy of WoR is in another state right now. It makes me retract parts of my previous theory that the Parshendi exist partially in Shadesmar, since the description given by the Parshendi is a lot closer to what people see in the physical realm. Something is going on there, but I really don’t know what!
@5, I definitely agree that the major hurdle Shallan overcomes in WoR is her perception of her own authority. I do think that wiping things out of her memory will need to be completely overcome, too, since Pattern makes comments to that effect in places. However, that progression with her memory will likely be akin to Kaladin’s progression with trust, in that it is so much a part of her that it will take quite a while to overcome.
Nice job, Alice!
Regarding Heraldic Symbolism:
Shallan is being very careful with her entry to Shadesmar this time, and in approaching Tvlakv & Co.
As to the map:
I am captivated. What are the symbols of varying size that look like a compass rose? They are connected to each other, and perhaps to more off the portion we see, by what appear to be ley lines. Could the compass rose symbols represent weak spots in the separation between the physical and cognitive realms, where a larger symbol means greater weakness?
Shallan acknowledging her coping mechanism and forcing herself to face distasteful things like Jasnah’s death must be part of her healing process.
@10 Lucky! When I asked, my only option was White Sand (not that I’m complaining mind you). I really want to see more of Yolen, other than the Liar of Partinel bits floating around.
@14 For sure. The bits of Liar are really intruiging, but Brandon said that Liar is one he’ll never give out as it has too many spoilers.
Thanks Alice,
I think Alice brings up a good point about Shallan potentially using more Stormlight for a better result (but probably less interesting story) when Soulcasting.
Regarding the Santhid, I admit to being torn between at least 2 possibilities:
1) Part of me wants there to be more of a backstory to Santhids: that they are specifically enhanced by Investiture to aid mankind at sea (maybe they are drawn to and will aid specific types of people similar to Ryshadium) and that we will find out more about their origin as the Stormlight Archive progresses.
2) Santhids are just another part of this magical world that Sanderson created and there may not be much more backstory as to why they are drawn to and will aid people, they just are intelligent creatures that do (similar to dolphins on our world).
As to the slavers, there are times I’m glad we have a general idea of what an author will/won’t do as your reading one of their stories. Since Brandon doesn’t tend towards grimdark, I don’t believe on my original read that I ever really worried too much about the slavers raping Shallan, and felt fairly confident that she would not be murdered so early in a book in which she was the main focus character. Slavery I was less sure of, but it didn’t seem that Brandon would have his focus characters go through slavery in back-to-back books.
I was very interested in how Shallan would find a way to get to the Shattered Plains, however, and remember dreading that her journey to the warcamps would be the main focus of the book and drag on unnecessarily long (Hah, was I super wrong!).
Finally: Stick. I found the stick exchange entertaining, but I didn’t think it would take off the way it has in Cosmere fandom. I do like how Sanderson has shown us in 2 separate WoR chapters that Soulcasting is not something that can be done easily; which contradicts the impression I had about soulcasting when reading about Shallan’s experience with soulcasting the goblet in WoK.
On to the comments!
@3, who said
Nazh is visible later on, described in this passage:
(Nazh later says he had to go through a ridiculous amount of work to draw the bridgemen’s glyphs for his female friend.)
Also of note: Nazh uses “shadows!” as a curse, which we’ve only seen from the planet in Shadows for Silence. He’s been confirmed as being from there as well.
Any chance the heraldic symbolism could be for the santhid?
I’m glad you pointed out “”Shallan thinking like a scholar” to disguise the occasional infodump.” I’ve noticed recently that he does this a lot and I like it. Frequently characters are letting their minds wander because they’re trying to distract themselves from something. Now that I’ve taken note of this tactic of his I see it a lot more.
AhoyMatey@1 – Dragonsteel? I am jealous. That is all.
MDNY@2 – Good recall on Mraize having a Santhid skull (or the like) in his collection, (along with what appears to be a Tear of Edgli flower and possibly some distinctive white sand, as well as other things). I had forgotten about that.
SerDragon@3 – In regards to the Avengers style match-up, I think that a common theory is of such an event happening in either the 3rd Mistborn Trilogy or of the actual DragonSteel series (or maybe Brandon mentioned something like this offhand, my cosmere memory is rather shaky this morning); Brandon bringing together his multiple worlds in some type of huge climactic shindig. Would be fun to read, I’m sure.
@14 and 15
I found those bits and pieces of Liar to be somewhat depressing, but nevertheless interesting as they relate to a possible, albeit rough backstory for Hoid. Yolen sounds like a pretty grim place to live at the time the story takes place.
@18
As in the santhid is wise?
Random note: The intro paragraphs are rather spoliery for anyone who hasn’t read the books. Wonder if anyone has been scrolling Tor.com and saw those lines then said “@@@@@(&% I didn’t want that spoiler!”
QotW: Ouch indeed. “But that was how she survived.” And if she had not survived, she would be a much less interesting person.
I’m not sure if anyone else reads Grady Hendrix’s recaps of the “Under the Dome” show. (Don’t watch the show, it’s crap. His recaps however are hilarious.) But here Sanderson uses her ‘thinking like a scholar’ to recap key points. UtD uses dumb charters saying the recaps, all…the…time. Much happier with Sanderson’s approach.
I am a stick – did she have more than one charged sphere left? I didn’t think she got more until the trunk shows up.
And with the addition of that extra info from Jasnah I’m suddenly wondering if she or Ivory had a hand in bringing the trunk to the beach near Shallan. So that there was a reason behind it conveniently washing up near her, besides plot driven need.
@@@@@3 & 19: Well we can always hope for a Charity Match-up / Cage-match like the Suvudu yearly challenge. Maybe he will write a short story there about at fight.
Braid_Tug @21
IIRC, Shallan had a couple more partially charged spheres in her safe pouch.
Ways@20- the Santhid could be showing wisdom and care in his act towards Shallon.
There is so much going on in this chapter that the herald icon is probably for something else. It was just a thought I had.
Bellaberry @23
I’m good with that. I expect Brandon to play the multiple meaning card. Shallan is also being careful (Shadesmar, Tvlakv) and showing wisdom by emulating Jasnah (even though she fails to convince the stick to change to fire).
@13. Ways Now that you mention it, that map really is wierd. Multiple compasses? Not only multiple on map, but lines from other off map. That suggests they mean a lot more than just pointing north. What are the ruler lines at top and bottom? They don’t see to match. At first I assumed that was a Rosharan script, but that isn’t the script we have seen Navani using. Does Roshar have multiple scripts, or is that other-worldly?
Are there any copies of White Sand/Liar of Partheniel/Dragonsteel floating around for us mere mortals to read? Or is it strictly a paper copy from friends affair?
I do like to see how magic/spren has naturally integrated itself into the ecosystem. It makes me curious how the 3 main sentient races on Roshar use spren differently. That bit about shadows is interesting as well. No clue what it means. But if we have people with Parshendi ancestry, are we going to see people with Aimian ancestry, who interact with spren differently still?
Same question as @25, ZenBossanova-
How can us mortals acquire copies of White Sand/Liar/Dragonsteel if we don’t personally know Peter Ahlstrom?
If draw a pentagram on the floor, and include a few candles, can Peter (and these manuscripts) be summoned?
FWIW, Pattern found the trunk before Shallan tried to Soulcast the stick. It says she “took out a glowing sphere, one of many she’d found in Jasnah’s trunk.” So it wasn’t a matter of not having enough spheres on hand; she presumably just didn’t realize that it would help.
Email Brandon/Peter from Brandon’s website. I believe White Sand / Aether of Night are the only ones currently being sent out. Liar is available via 17th Shard, but only parts of it. Dragonsteel is not being sent out if asked, to the best of my knowledge.
@25. ZenBossanova
Ahhhh, thanks for engaging on the map. I am very fond of the illustrations in all BWS’s works. They really complement the text, and although they are not necessarily canon, they contain vast amounts of information. Isaac, Ben and the other contributors deserve a big, sparkly yay.
None of the writing on that map is Alethi script as we know it. So I Googled “Frostlands Map” and found a translation on 17th Shard. The script is Thaylen, but the translation is pretty much what you’d expect. The “rulers” are Vorin numbers turned on their sides: right to left along the top is 0 to 21, and 4 descending to 0 then up to 28 along the bottom. I couldn’t find any speculation on the compass rose thingies (may have missed it). So, I’m stuck with my loonie theory @13 for now.
You can find the first few chapters of Liar on docstocDOTcom, along with an alternative beginning. I believe you have to message Team Sanderson through Brandon’s website to request copies of White Sand or Dragonsteel and you may or may not be rewarded. All are rough and not canon. It makes sense that Brandon is reluctant to release these drafts and early works.
@29, @30. Thank you for that information! I would LOVE reading any / all of that.
Ways, thanks to pointing out the map. I have to confess I didn’t look at it all to closely, although I should know better. I wasn’t able to puzzle out the WoK endsheet myself, but as it got explained I’m fascinated. So please keep theorizing.
Re unpublished books: I’m still waiting & hoping to get an answer to my email request …
I love the thoughts on the map. I’d noticed the variously-sized “compass rose” things, but had NO idea what they were. After reading the rough-draft Jasnah scene Brandon gave in London, you’ve really got me wondering if these are the “stable junctions” Ivory talked about. That would be very cool. I wonder if anyone has asked about those yet…
@32 It may take a while. The last time I emailed Brandon, it took him about eight months to get back to me. He’s a busy guy, and gets a LOT of emails.
If he is so busy, I hate to bug him. Or make him take a moment longer to finish Stormlight 3:Szeth and Kal’s Excellent Adventure.
Are there any copies we can share amongst ourselves?
ZenBossanova @@@@@ 35 – Unfortunately, he does explicitly ask people to not share it around when he does send it out (I asked for and received White Sand after hearing that it was being made into a graphic novel).
@25, @30, @33 My theory is the compass rose looking things are Oathgate locations. Note the one on the Shattered Plains.
@37. Ellie Oathgates… interesting idea, but there were only 10 of them, plus Urithiru. Isn’t that correct? Unless there is a much larger oathgate system than we have been lead to believe, I don’t think that one works. Still, that detail about the Shattered Plains is an excellent point. Why there?
@36. jeremyguebert thanks. Probably better just wait then.
@Zen and others –
This
is one epic thread detailing some fun with the maps – long story short, if you are math whiz, you will find the connection between Roshar and a Julia set absolutely amazing. You might find this mindblowing even if you are not (I did when I was trying to follow this, and I don’t do math.)
This one is the detailing and deciphering of the different scripts used in the maps, with their translations. Some pretty neat stuff here too.
[ETA: in these two threads, the first post has been edited to have a full summary of what was found and confirmed by Peter, so you don’t have to filter through all the pages and pages of back and forth discussion…Though I guess you can, if you have a lot of time on your hands :)]
I remember seeing some speculations about the compas rose thingy as well, but no one had anything concrete (can’t remember what thread that was…)- but, like Wet, I think the SA#3 reading from Jasnah and the ideas of the Stormfather’s stable junctions (or “Honor’s Perpendicularity”) may have something to do with their placement, or they may have something to do with the symbol noted on the maps in this thread.
I laughed out loud when Shallan failed to persuade the stick to change, because I’m usually about that persuasive myself. However, considering that she was cold, tired, hungry, and in pain, her wits weren’t quite all there. I could positively feel her befuddlement and her dim awareness of it. Very human of her, and it’s a nice bit of writing to convey the feeling.
Thanks 40. Confutus
Now I have a Python-esque version of LotR in my head.
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!
Yes, I think I will.
No, you won’t.
Pardon, good sir, I believe I will.
Oh no you don’t.
The flashback icons in WoK are inverted? I would have sworn they were not, but unfortunately I’ll have to wait a couple days to check my copy.
Haven’t read most of the comments; scared of spoilers for unpublished works.
@38. I was just looking at the image posted here. Is there an image with the complete map with roses somewhere?
Intersting tidbit I just noticed on the map. If what I think I’m seeing in the various compass roses is true and the map follows our Earth conventions of placing north up / south down, this location is in the southern hemisphere of the planet.
@44 That was the same impression I had from reading WoR, but I was thinking about the near tropical weather in the north of the continent and the position of the Frostlands in the south.
@44 Wingracer- yes, I believe that Roshar is in the Southern hemisphere. This would explain why the Frostfangs and cold waters are in the South, while the Northern waters (closer to the equator) are warm (i.e. the Reshi islands which appear tropical- well, on the backs of tropical Greatshells).
I was thinking about the weird compass “roses” on the Frostlands map, and my first guess, was that they were for predicting highstorms, though I couldn’t quite get that to make sense, how that would work.
Better thought, they are for landmarks and navigation. So if you know you are a certain angle from two given landmarks, you can triangulate your position. Of course, that would be better if it were a grid, but that isn’t how it would work at first. At first, it would simple be well-known landmarks.
sillyslovene @39
The rosary thingies do appear to be placed with “devine intervention”.
They all have 16 lines radiating from them and each are placed in a way that they are all connected to each other perfectly with one of the lines. Random placement would not result in that.
And eventhough the number 10 is the repetitive number in this world, they are 16 shards and the number 16 is quite special on other worlds.
edit: OK not all of them are connected to each other, but many are. Still interesting connections.
48. Kaboom
Umm, I admit my eyes aren’t as good as they once were, but I’m not seeing 16 lines on each and every complete symbol.
@48 / 49 re the compass-“thingies”
Agreed, there aren’t 16 lines to each (by my count)
The one in the middle top has 14, the one in the upper left has 16.
the lower right has only 15!
the left lower middle is only partially there but would likely have 14 (maybe 16) and the really small one on the lower left edge has 14 as well.
Wetlander on Sprenspotting:
Your discussion of the differences in appearance of each spren in the physical and cognitive realms crystallized something that has been nagging at the back of mind ever since Shallan drew Pattern into the physical realm. We learn that Pattern in the physical realm looks like a raised (3-dimensional) geometric drawing, but in the cognitive realm it takes the form of a human with a geometric symbol for head. Fine so far.
However, in tWoK Shallan started to see these human-like creatures with symbol-heads out of the corners of her eyes or when taking a Memory. And we are given a hint that Elhokar might also be seeing symbol-headed creatures in his mirror. As we are told the Cryptics appear as symbol-heads only in the cognitive realm, by what mechanism can they appear to Shallan and Elhokar in the physical realm not as raised geometric patterns but as human-like symbol-headed creatures? Or does it mean that both Shallan and Elhokar are momentarily drawn into the cognitive realm whenever they see the Cryptics in their natural form? If someone has a plausible theory for what is happening here I would be pleased to hear it.
Umm…. it’s the Magic?
:) Seriously, I don’t have a solid answer, but I would suspect that it’s a glimpse into the cognitive realm. At first, Shallan didn’t see them consciously, but they (he??) would show up in her drawings as something she had apparently perceived with her mind rather than seen with her eyes – like her mind was connecting with the cognitive realm when she was drawing. (I should go back and look – did that only happen when she was drawing from a Memory? That would be an interesting twist.) When she started to be aware of them in the physical realm… I would guess her mind was trying to connect what it was perceiving to the part of her brain that connects to the optic nerve.
I’m not sure what to think about Elhokar. I’m only about 90% sure that he really sees Cryptics rather than something else.
@51, 52 : I’ve been operating the assumption that Shallan and Elhokar are seeing into the Cognitive realm when they glimpse the symbolheads, thougn I’m unclear about the mechanism (are they drawing stormlight unconsciously?) No evidence yet to support this, other than our knowledge on the appearance of cryptics as pattterns in the physical realm and symbolheads in the Cognitive realm. Hopefully we’ll learn more about this, especially about what Elhokar’ deal is, exactly (in more ways than one).
@MDNY:
A possible explanation when it comes to taking a Memory is that her mind momentarily connects to the Cognitive realm when she does that, so she sees both the symbolheads in the Cognitive realm and the object she is looking at in the Physical realm at that instant. She is not consciously aware that she connected to the Cognitive realm when taking the Memory, so it is only when she finishes the drawing that she notices the cryptics.
That is an excellent explanation for the phenomenon when she takes a Memory, but it doesn’t explain the scene in tWoK when she kept seeing symbolheads around her (in the Physical realm) as she walked in the palace gardens in broad daylight.
Perhaps, just as honorspren can choose whether or not to reveal themselves to a human, cryptics can go one better and have the ability to appear to their radiant in either the symbolhead or the pattern form. So far, that seems to be the only explanation that covers all the sightings we’ve seen. I’ll be interested to see if Brandon clarifies this later, perhaps at a signing.
@52: And I am 90% sure Elhokar is not seeing cryptics… He does not exhibit any of the orders’ primary attributes: he certainly is not creative. He is whiny, capricious and shallow. He has no authority and when he tries to enforce it, he ends up being a bully. He knows he is a horrible king and yet does nothing to improve. Honestly, if that kind of man becomes a Radiant, than they will serously go down in my head as a group of people.
Now, I wouldn’t mind him if he actually improve (immensely) and then attract a spren, but to think he may have already have one, given his current state is an awfull thought. Pretty much every character we have met so far is more deserving and more worthy of being a Radiant than Elhokar.
Personally, I believe he is seeing things of Odium.
@55 Maxal- But all the Radiants are broken in some way. Dalinar was a man who reveled in bloodshed and the Thrill, just as Gavilar did, and yet both of them were chosen to get visions as proto-radiants from the Stormfather. Elhokar isn’t that likeable, but I don’t think he’s evil, or cruel, just broken somehow. I find his references to symbol-headed things glimpsed out of the corner of his eye to be pretty consistent with him seeing cryptics, and I don’t think he’s been so corrupted by Odium as you do. Plus, it seems pretty consistent that Odium’s spren are red (I think always, based on the Stormspren that Eshonai uses as well as the spren that Dalinar saw in his flashback with the Thunderclast, though it hasn’t been confirmed to my knowledge). So Odium’s spren appear to be red, not twisted and unnatural, which is how both Shallan and Elhokar describe what they see (cryptics for Shallan, and I think for Elhokar too).
@56: Being broken is not all that is required to be a Radiant. Plenty of people are broken: it does not mean they will be chosen by sprens. What matters most is the ability to live by the oaths, to embrace its first attribute. Elhokar just does not exhibit any attribute. Dalinar is pious, Kal is protective, Shallan is creative and what is Elhokar? Whiny? Hardly a Radiant-like quality. No matter which order I look at, he does not fit.
The cracks in the soul are necessary for the bond to happen as I believe they are ways to prove the proto-radiant is strong enough to walk by its attributes and to maintain his oaths even in the worst hardships.
Elhokar is just not cut out to be a Radiant, especially not a Lightweaver. He has never express any indications towards any form of art or creative hability, which is one of the prerequite to become a Lightwearver. The fact he may have been be broken does not make him a candidate.
Besides, not everything Odium-related is red. Dustbringers and Lightweavers have red as their colors and both are rumored to harbor red eyes and they not not Odium’s creatures.
In this day and age, creativity isn’t exactly encouraged in men; they’re supposed to be warriors and stuff like that. So even if Elhokar has a creative streak, it’s likely been firmly suppressed all his life. As Gavilar’s only son, the ardentia wouldn’t really have been an option, I suspect, so he’s tried to suck it up and be kingly.
We just don’t know enough from inside his head to be able to say what he’s really like. All we have is other people’s perspectives: Dalinar, who consciously supports him and unconsciously takes over the reins whenever it seems necessary. Navani, who loves her son but recognizes that he’s just not a good king. Kaladin, who sees him as a whiny lighteyes who can’t make an intelligent decision to save his life.
Who knows what’s inside him? The one real glimpse we get is his conversation with Kaladin, where he admits that he knows he’s not a good king, he really wants to be, but he just doesn’t know how. Leadership and heroism is just not his natural strength… so what is? We might just find out eventually that he’s a perfect Lightweaver, once he’s allowed to be himself instead of trying to be someone he’s not.
With any other author, I would be 99% sure he’s seeing Cryptics; the similarities are too strong for it to be less than intentional. With Brandon, I have to drop it to 90%, because I know how much he likes to play with our expectations; OTOH, he also likes to give hints for us to figure things out.
Actually, Elhokar seemed quite versed in the art of war. He seem potent enought with his shardplate and I guess (this is just me assuming as we have no clues) his skill with the sword are acceptable. He organized the entire chasmfield hunt so he could get some actions, being prevented from actually going onto the plains himself. Once there, he rushed out to make race with Dalinar.
I’m guessing Elhokar is not a Renarin: he is quite at ease in the Alethki society, he is just not good in keeping a position of leadership. He was probably poorly thought and my guess is that Galivar was not the optimum dad. I somehow doubt he really took time to bring his son into a future position of leadership, much unlike what Dalinar is doing with Adolin.
I have always read Elhokar as temperamental, impulsive, whiny and capricious. Much like his uncle and his cousin, he is an emotional one, prone to tantrums. He does not know how to express his will, so he comes out as a bully.
Honestly, these do not fit very well with any Radiant order. Even if I agree we have not seen inside his head, I sincerely doubt he is Radiant material, especially not now. Perhaps in the future, but so far, he has done nothing to warranty him a bond, he is not living by any attribute. For him to get a spren would be a slapping joke to pretty much any deserving characters and we have met many.
I don’t know much of Elhokar. We know his father died when he was 22, and he was immediately thrust into a position of immense authority. I gathered that Gavilar had spent more time uniting the kingdom than he had training his son to take over. Just because a person has been “broken”, does not mean it is obvious to the rest of us. We only had a few clues about Shallan and her backstory, before WoR. Even Kaladin couldn’t see tragic backstory, because she didn’t show it off.
I see no immediate reason to think Elhokar is evil, or influenced by Odium, but we will see when given more information. So far, he has just been a bit lame. Let’s let a fire get kindled underneath him, get in a bit of danger, bond with a spren, and then let’s see what happens.
The issue I have with Elhokar is the possiblity he may be currently bonding with a spren (even if I don’t think he is, there is the possibility I am wrong about this)… I just cannot fathom why this would happen and I do not see why he should bond with one anyway. Sprens are attracted to individual with the potential to withold their oaths. Elhokar has not shown that. Perhaps he will, but he hasn’t so far, so why would a spren be interested in him now??? There is just no reason.
Which is why I think whatever he is seeing are not Order sprens, but something else. I mean, if I were Odium, I would like to corrupt my ennemy and what best way to do this than take control of a weak king? Elhokar is the perfect prey for Odium: he desperately want to be worthy of being king, but he utterly fails to see how to behave properly. If someone were to give him the tools he seek, without him having to work for it, I am pretty sure he would fall for it. It would be so easy: you flatter him, you tell him what he wants to hear and you promise what he wants effortlessly……… I do not believe Elhokar has the strenght to resist such threat which is why I do not think he can be a Radiant. Elhokar is very weak of mind whereas Radiants are strong. They believe in their stuff and are willing to go to extreme to express it.
He may be broke but that hardly is the main criteria to become a Radiant.
I also disagree it was not obvious Shallan had a terrible past. It was hinted quite heavily in WoK.
Maxal @61 – “Sprens are attracted to individual with the potential to withold their oaths.” Do you have proof of that, or is that merely your expectation? As far as I’m aware, we just don’t know what causes a spren to choose a person. We don’t know what their criteria are. They may be different for every Order; they may be different for every individual spren. We can make educated guesses, but we don’t know enough to say for sure.
As far as Elhokar, I prefer to withhold judgement. A lot of people loathed Shallan in TWoK, even after the “I killed my father” bit and the hints that her past had been abusive to some extent. A lot of people did not consider her a valid Radiant candidate, for reasons that seemed good at the time. With the information in WoR, she looks like a very different person.
Most of the way through TWoK and WoR, hardly anyone (reader or character) would have considered Renarin to be a plausible Radiant candidate – but he’s a Truthwatcher. I haven’t heard anyone even pretend they saw that one coming, and yet, there he is.
IMO, it’s entirely possible that the same may prove true of Elhokar – especially after being rescued by Kaladin and cared for by the Herdazian contingent. I can’t imagine anyone having the gall to open up to Odium after living with Lopen’s mother! :D
Seriously, though, that bit at the end – Kaladin saving Elhokar, hiding him with the Herdazians and all that? That makes me think Elhokar is turning a corner in his life; he’s going to grow up, stop whining about things, and become a real leader.
The other possibility, of course, is that he’s going to see Kaladin, Dalinar, Renarin, Shallan, and a bunch of bridgemen who can glow, and dive back into feeling sorry for himself. “Everybody gets to be a Radiant but me. It’s not fair!!” That would be… bad, I think. But I think it’s the less likely of the possibilities.
While Elhokar exhibits some serious character flaws, he still has potential. That scene late in WOR where he visits Kaladin and is honest about his failings as a king shows a man willing to learn from his mistakes. The early scene in WOK where he attacks a chasmfiend who is threatening his large hunting party suggests that he is capable of bravery. His connection to the Cognitive realm appears to be evidenced by his seeing ‘symbol faces’. His potential to advance to surgebinding and Radiant status may be further indicated by his association with Wit (Hoid). The latter appears to be encouraging Radiant candidates as witnessed by his scenes with a very young Shallan and an uncertain or depressed Kaladin. If he does ultimately achieve Radiant status it would be another surprising ‘promotion’ akin to that of Renarin.
“That scene late in WOR where he visits Kaladin and is honest about his failings as a king shows a man willing to learn from his mistakes.”
This. This is why I really still have good expectations for Elhokar. He recognizes his failings. Doesn’t know quite what to do about them yet, but he recognizes them. More of us could do that to our benefit…
::looks in mirror::
::shudders::
@62: Yes and no. Sprens are not attracted by brokeness, but by qualities. Each order have first and second attributes and if you look at our main crew, they all strongly exhibit the first one: protection for Kal, creativity for Shallan and piousness for Dalinar. I strongly believe these qualities are what attracted the sprens to them. From Pattern, we know it was Shallan’s talent to create lies (albeit creativity) that first drew him to her. The events that broke her took place after. For Kal, we know Syl was attracted to him a he strive to protect his small squad in Amaram’s army. Dalinar attracted the Stormfather as he gave out being the Blackthorn and started becoming overly pious (enforcing the Way of Kings). In all cases, it was their qualities that drew the sprens.
I could be wrong about this, of course, but it just makes so much more sense this way.
As for Renarin, I thought he was a rip-of in WoR. He came out of nowhere and I don’t entirely feel he was entitled to it. However, Renarin is a nice person and I guess I can see him becoming a good Radiant, much unlike Elhokar who has yet to show any quality. The fact he complained to Kaladin while being completely drunk does not redeem him in the slightest way. Constantly whining and dweeling in your misery is not growing even if you share it with someone else. He has yet to take any concrete actions or to show any strengh of character. Maybe he’ll turn a corner, but I feel to have him as a Radiant would be an insult to all others, especially to poor Adolin.
As for him complaining he is not a Radiant, well I think it is a strong possibility… I mean, Elhokar is jealous and whiny naturally, why would he turn over in the scope of a few nights? We’ve got Adolin who’ll probably beat himself down for it: Elhokar is the perfect candidate to get envious. I mean, he already is this way….
@63: Actually we have a new WoB stating Wit’s interest in people have nothing to do with their potential to draw sprens…. So Wit liking someone or someone liking Wit is not a sign of proto-radianship.
@65 Maxal- Where did you see WOB that Hoid is not interested in people’s attraction of spren? It seems to me that he is interested in investiture in every world he visits, which on Roshar involves spren, so I’m very interested in knowing exactly what BWS said (how he phrased it might help further our understanding of Hoid and the Cosmere…)
I agree with STBLST and Wet that of all the points in favor of Elhokar’s potential, his adoption into The Lopin’s family is perhaps the strongest point in his favor.
@66: Here :-)
Q: Does Wit specifically treat people differently when he knows they’re (going to) have a spren bond? (E.g. Renarin, Dalinar)
A: Yes, Wit treats people differently, but it is not because of present or nascent spren bonds. He has an opinion of what each person needs to hear. He isn’t always correct in this opinion, but he tries to give people what he thinks they need. In Dalinar’s case, he simply has too much respect for the man to be glib. In Renarin’s case, he believes that the boy has had more than enough breaking down, and is much more in need of building up
@67 Okay, I recall reading that. I don’t think that means that it’s irrelevant, however. The fact is that Hoid tends to approach people with investiture in every world he visits, so just because BWS said it is “not because of present or nascent spren bonds” does not mean that those are irrelevant, IMHO. In Warbreaker he spent time with Siri, who had no investiture (breath), but she was central to the story and his interactions with her were quite important to the larger picture. So the fact that he is spending time with all these proto-radiants is important, I believe, even if it’s not just because of their bonds.
@68: Actually, I thought it was pretty straight forward…
It confirms Wit is not interested in Renarin because of latent Radiant ability. He likes Dalinar out of respect and not because of his proto-radiantship. Therefore, I do not think Elhokar liking Wit is an argument in favor of him becoming a Radiant. It just means he likes Wit, just like Adolin likes Wit, but it does not mean either will become a Radiant.
I believe Wit is Wit (or Hoid is Hoid) and he talks to whom he deemed deserving and this independantly of their overal potential. I know it is a popular theory that Wit is on the loose to rout out proto-radiants, but I guess this WoB kind of kills it.
Maxal, while Hoid’s favorable interactions with individuals aren’t limited to those with Radiant potential, he does appear to be particularly interested and invested in them. He is not some general do-gooder like Ym; he has a definite mission in Roshar which may or may not coincide with that of Dalinar, or the general welfare of mankind on that planet – as he warns Dalinar. When he first encounters the 14 year old Shallan he nearly spills his drink in surprise. He sees her connection to the spren world – even if it’s been suppressed at the time, and offers his encouragement. His connection to Renarin and Elhokar is more tenuous. It may be that he connects to Elhokar and finds favorable words for Renarin because of their important standing on Roshar. Elhokar is, after all, the king of the one of the most powerful people on the planet; while Renarin is the son of its most powerful figure. Still, the possibility remains that he sees both as potential Radiants despite physical (Renarin) or mental (Elhokar) failings. While the former has already been elevated to Radiant status by the end of WOR, it would not shock me to find Elhokar similarly elevated in the next series installment.
@70: I could agree with you if we had not have the WoB…
Brandon clearly stated Wit is not interested in Renarin because of his latent Radiant powers or his standing. He likes the boy because he fells he was picked on too often and needs to built up some self-confidence… Besides, if Wit was after “people of standing”, than he should have been more interested in Adolin than Renarin and it hasn’t been the case so far.
Brandon also clearly says Wit’s interest in people is not triggered by proto-radiant potential. It is a pure hasard it happened this way so far, which is why I am reluctant to draw any conclusion on Elhokar’s future based on the fact he actually likes Wit. Besides, we have yet to read any interaction between those two.We have no idea what sort of feelings Wit’s harbors for Elhokar.
I keep reading people thinking Elhokar had radiant potential, but so far the only favorable argument are those things he claims he sees… which may not even be related to any of the orders. The thing is Elhokar is not just (not a Skybreaker), not brave (not a Dustbringer), not pious (not a Bondsmith), not learned (not a Truthwatcher), not wise (not an Elsecaller), not creative (not a Lightweaver), not dependable (not a Stoneward), not resolute (not a Willshaper), not loving (not a Edgedancer)…. He is none of these things, therefore how can he be a Radiant? He needs to have the proper qualities and he just doesn’t.
Personally, I would be shocked to see Elhokar being elevated. It would feel like a trementuous rip-of to see this whiny, capricious, bullying and unreliable person being awarded great powers on the simple basis he may have been broken… He just needs to be more than that and admitting he sucks while being drunk is not a live changing commitment. It is a step in the right direction, but it is not enought, especially since the said “spren” has been with him before he made that confession… Look how far the others had to push it to make to Radianthood! Elhokar does not even reach their ankle just yet, in fact, he is ten feet below. We are not even sure Adolin will make it to Radianhodd and he has ten times the qualities Elhokar misses…
Maxal @@@@@ various:
I would say that Elhokar’s overwhelming characteristics is not whininess, but paranoia. Other than his visit to Kaladin to confess that he is not a good king, all other behaviour I can think of that we may classify as whining involves complaints to all and sundry (and Dalinar in particular) that no one takes his fear of assassination seriously. If you can recall other evidence of whining than these, I’ll happily consider it.
Now, let’s look more closely at his paranoia. He became king because his father was brutally killed by the unknown Assassin in White, who susbsequently went on to murder a whole lot of other kings for no reason anyone can fathom. Will the Assassin come back to get him too? If it were you, would you bet against it?
Now, add to that the fact that he sees strange symbolheaded figures out of the corner of his eyes and in his mirror. Any time he jerks around to confront one these strange figures, there’s no one there. Would you blame him that he is constantly on edge about potential assassination attempts against him? So he drinks more than he should (to drown his fears?), and he complains that nobody takes him seriously about assassins out to get him. More important to me, even in his fear and paranoia, he hasn’t descended into outright arbitrariness and tyranny; he still takes advice, and wants to govern well.
Honestly, in my view he has held up a whole lot better under the circumstances than most other people would in his situation, and I think it shows rather commendable strength of character, although you don’t think so. If, indeed, what he is seeing in the mirror is a cousing of the Cryptics, or a Cryptic trying to bond him, I can see why. Perhaps he still hasn’t figured out how to bring out the Cryptic or quasi-Cryptic from the Cognitive into the Physical realm, and that is why he is still unbonded. We’ll soon see.
@7o His paranoia started a long time before the Assassin in White started his killing spree. His father was murdered, true, but that was 6 years ago and 6 years later he is ready to fake an assassination attempt to prove he is right in continuing his unfounded paranoia. And it was unfounded as there were no further attempt in 6 whole years! Nearly a decade, quite a long time to entertain his phobie of being removed like his father…
When the Assassin came back, I could understand his first instinct being one of panic, althought I do think a proto-radiant should have shown quite a bit more backbone than that. Renarin does not know how to fight and yet he was ready to through himself against Szeth. You also never see Dalinar, Kaladin or Jasnah back down in front of a challenge and dwindle in fear and wimpering.
However, we soon learn the Assassin was not after the king, but after Dalinar… Does that improve his mood? No.
I get it he drowns his sorrow in alcohool, however I do not see him as strong. I see him as incredebily weak. The fact he still wants to govern well is not a sign of strenght, especially since he utterly failed at doing so. He let his temper get the better of him most of the time. He listen to advice only when he wants to and he surely does not use it to better himself.
Sincerely, I cannot see why a spren would be interested in Elhokar. I have alway seen his paranioa as a childish attempt to draw attention to himself, much like a child may throw a tantrum to get a favored toy. He claims he is seeing things, but we have no proof they are related to an order. There is also the fact he uses the plural and radiant sprens tend to come in batch of one. It could be sprens are watching him, but I would be honestly disappointed if their purpose were to grant him a nahel bond.
What has Elhokar done so exceptional that deserves a nahel bond? Managing to live through his father’s assassination? Sure he did, in one of the worst possible way…. much unlike Kal and Shallan who used their hardship to actually grow.
Well, he became king six years ago, true, but in all that time has the Assassin in White disappeared? No, everyone knows the Assassin is on a rampaging spree killing all the kings … remember in Lift’s episode where none of the candidates wanted to be chosen to be the next king because they were all afraid of the Assassin coming back to kill the next king too? I think you dismiss Elhokar’s fears of assassination too readily.
As well, Shallan also saw multiple symbolheads around her, not just one, so Elhokar’s use of the plural ito refer to the spren he may be seeing is not out of line.
Interesting debate about Elhokar. I don’t believe we know enough about him at this point to kick that ball in any direction.
I do wonder, in passing, if Hoid might be considering mentoring the young king into becoming a Lightweaver via Yolish investiture. Elhokar seeing (what might be) Symbolheads could be an unintended consequence of his residency on Roshar. We know using off-planet investiture is possible, if difficult. And yes, this possibility is a HUGE stretch, extremely unlikely. The only reason I can posit for Hoid doing it is because Elhokar is in a position of power. So don’t get your undies in a wad if you don’t agree, just thinking outside the proverbial box here.
Re Hoid
I’d say, that Hoid is interessted in the people who become relevant to the story (will affect the future). It’s logic that among those the one’s with investiture would be prevalent.
Which fits the WoB quoted above: it’s not really the investiture.
(I don’t know though how Hoid would know who becomes relevant, in the case of young Shallan, it would require quite some fore-sight …)
Well, I’m home for the weekend so I looked in my copy of TWoK and, sure enough, there are two Kaladin icons. The whole icon isn’t inverted, just the banner. I didn’t check every chapter, but I’m willing to take Alice’s word for it that it follows the same pattern of being inverted for flashbacks (for now, anyway. I’ll probably go through and check eventually, when I update my Excel doc.)
So, what exactly does attract spren?
For Kaladin, it was being honorable, so he got an honor spren. But what attracts Cultivation spren? The fact you are trying to grow? The fact that you can create things? The fact you have potential?
Sure, Elhokar is being a bit of shmuck, but is that really the whole story? Is that really all there is to him? It might be all we have seen so far, but I strongly suspect we will see more of him and his back story.
Does any one rememeber who the 10 books of the series are supposed to be about? I know Szeth and Dalinar are supposed to be next. But who is after that?
@74: The Assassin in White has not been active since Galivar’s death (well not on the main scene anyway)… The killings in Jah Keved and in Azir happened recently so up until now, he was not a threat. In the Lift episode, all candiates have been murdered in the scope of a few days/weeks, not years. It is why they got so desperate… All in all, Szeth has not been doing much rampage on the Roshar scene until Mr T got a hold of his stone which happened recently.
If you look at the timeline, you noticed Elhokar did spend 6 years being afraid of an unreal threat. No wonder Dalinar did not give any more credeance to his paranoia: no attempts were ever made in 6 years to his life or anyone close to him and yet he kept thinking they were out to get him. If the threats had been serious, Dalinar would have acted readily on them (Dalinar is very lenient with Elhokar and lets him get away with much: we could even accuse him of favoritism when it comes to his nephew, all this because he felt guilty his brother was murdered), but they are non-existant. Elhokar had to fake an assassination attempt to get his uncle taking heed to his unfounded fears. And even when the Assassin did come back: he was not even after Elhokar! Why would anyone want to remove a weak puppet king anyway? Everyone knows Dalinar is the one in charge.
I am not sure about what Shallan really saw. It was not Pattern and they did not look very nice, so it could be something else. We she saw Pattern, we knew what he was. The symbol heads, I doubt they are related to nahel bonds…
@75: Elhokar may be in a position of power but he does not have any authority. Nobody take him seriously and the only reason he is still there is because hasvesting gemhearts has made everyone happy and rich…
@76: I think Hoid is interested in people period. Their relevance to the future does not matter. Young Shallan was intriguing. Kal came out of the lot. Dalinar, he respects. Renarin, I don’t know, maybe he has a soft spot for boys who don’t quite fit in. Besides, even if it were the case, we have no indication Hoid is having any interest in Elhokar. It could be he liked being Wit because it gave him a free opportunity to insult people… Elhokar likes his banter, so does Adolin, but where does that bring us?
@78: The latest list for flashback characters goes as follow:
3 = Szeth / Skybreaker
4 = Eshonai / Willshaper (not confirmed without a doubt but highly probable)
5 = Dalinar / Bondsmith
The first half is pretty set. It won’t change. The only unknown is which order will be the focus of book 4. The most probable on is the Willshaper, the most probable order for Eshonai. Her joining the Radiant is not canon yet, but the clues are all there and she does have a spren order related (confirmed by Brandon).
The second half is more tricky. 4 out 5 have been confirmed without a doubt, but number 10 is still up for grab. So far, Brandon has mentioned the following:
6 = Taln / Stonewards
7 = Shalash / WTF????
8 = Jasnah / Elsecallers
9 = Lift / Edgedancers
10 = Renarin / Truthwatchers
Shalash in the unknown one. I guess it may change, but so far I have been tearing my hair out as to why Brandon would give us two flashbacks characters from the same order (Shalash is the Herald of the Lightweaver) and why he refuses to give us a flashback character from the Dustbringer’s order. I also find it suspicious Dustbringers get a different treatement as it is the one order for which we have no confirmed Radiant. We have suspicions, of course, but nothing solid.
And no, before someone mentions it, Elhokar certainly is not a Dustbringer. They are a brave lot whereas Elhokar is a wimp.
Maxal @79 – “I am not sure about what Shallan really saw. It was not Pattern and they did not look very nice, so it could be something else. We she saw Pattern, we knew what he was. The symbol heads, I doubt they are related to nahel bonds…”
Say what??? If you go back and read Chapter 7, it’s absolutely clear that “the symbolheads” Shallan saw are the form Cryptics wear in Shadesmar:
Whether or not this is what Elhokar sees, we don’t know yet. It is absolutely what Pattern is, in his Cognitive form.
I don’t think it’s possible to use the WoB on Hoid’s treatment of people as a bludgeon on either side of this argument. Brandon said Hoid’s treatment of people is based on what he thinks they need, not on whether they have the potential of a spren bond. That doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. It doesn’t mean that everyone he treats kindly will become a Radiant – but it doesn’t mean they won’t either. It just means that’s not the reason he’s nice to them. (Although… if you consider the idea of brokenness as part of becoming a Radiant, and Hoid’s ability to see a person’s brokenness as a reason to treat them with kindness… it’s not a cause/effect relationship, but it could be a parallel effect. Just sayin’.)
Will Elhokar become a Radiant?
Dunno.
Do I trust Brandon to do the best thing for the story/characters?
Absolutely.
If Elhokar becomes a Radiant, will I consider it a rip-off of more deserving characters?
Absolutely not.
It’s his story, he can tell it the way he wants, and do with it what he wants. I have complete confidence that it will be done right, no matter what he does. If that means Elhokar is a Radiant, cool. If it means he’s a traitor to mankind and serves Odium, cool. If it means he and Adolin become close because they’re the only non-Radiants left in the family, cool. I just want to read the story.
FWIW, I loved Renarin’s reveal. It brought with it so many implications that make the Radiants more than just leveled-up warriors. Physical strength and courage are not Renarin’s thing – but his mental strength, tenacity, and self-control are amazing. Will he suddenly up and become a paladin? I doubt it – but then, remember what Jasnah said?
I simply don’t believe we’ll ever know enough to predict with accuracy which characters are “worthy” of a spren bond. We don’t know enough.
Maxal @80
are you a 17th Sharder?
You state that we know a representant for every order but the Dustbringers. Based on my own puzzling and avidly reading tor that’s not what I know.
I’m missing representants for four Orders not just one:
– Skybreakers (Upto WoR I refuse to count Szeth, even if Nalan invites him to join him: as far as I know he has no spren)
– Dustbringers (as you stated)
– Kelek’s order (Willshaper)
– Stonewards
I admit I haven’t convincingly placed Ym yet…
if you answer, could you please not just give me the names of the representatives, but the reasoning or the source where I can go look up the reasoning …
@82 I agree generally, but I’m not so sure about not counting Szeth. If one of the Heralds is making him a KR in that Herald’s own order, then maybe he is one. Perhaps the Skybreakers were formed by their Herald, and Nalan/Nin/ whatever you call him has some means of commanding a certain type of spren to bond those in his order. This is just speculation, but we know that different orders form their bonds differently (e.g. Bondsmiths all with Stormfather, Edgedancers apparently at the command of their council as per Wyndle, Windrunners at their spren’s own discretion/initiative as per Syl, etc…) Maybe the Skybreakers, who seem to have a sort of harsh rigid mindset, are all under Nalan and always were, and he controls/initiates their bond somehow. I just don’t know, but my instinct tells me that if there’s a whole book coming on Szeth’s back-history, he will eventually become a real radiant.
MDNY @83 – But that doesn’t work, because we know from the epigraphs that Nalan was the last of the Heralds to accept “patronage” of the Order who claimed him as their master.
Given what little we know, it’s fairly certain that the spren can initiate bonds with or without the knowledge and consent of the associated Herald. With the possible exception of Ishar, there’s no reason to think a Herald even has the ability to decide who the spren choose, much less to simply designate someone as a Radiant and make it work. If nothing else, Szeth holds Nightblood, not a sprenBlade.
@81: Alright. My bad. I made a mistake with the symbol heads. I forgot about that quote. However we do have another one stating Pattern was the only representative of his kind to bond a human. We could conclude Elhokar is seeing cryptics and will thus become a Radiant, however the core of my argumentation is the fact Elhokar is not exhibiting any of the required qualities.
It could be I am completely, totally wrong and that Brandon is waiting to give the us the big reveal as to how great Elhokar truly is. However, based on the facts we do have, he does come out as a capricious wimp. Hardly Radiant-like qualities. We are quite far from Shallan’s incredible artistic talent, which is one of the attribute of the Lightweavers.
The reason I brought forward the WoB about Hoid is to indicate the fact that Elhokar likes him is not an argument in favor of him becoming a Radiant. I have never stated it was an argument against. It is just not relevant. It just does not mean anything, one way or another.
The reason I feel Elhokar would be a rip-of is the fact he has not demonstrated any inclination towards it or qualities linked to any order. If I am wrong and he truly is seeing cryptics and is on his way to become a Radiant, then yes it would be awfull, for me as a reader. Why? Because it would mean he has managed to attract a spren while being this paranoiac capricious wimp. Of course he is entitled to change, but he hasn’t, so far. Therefore, until he does, significantly, I will keep seeing him as unworthy.
The reason I feel Renarin is a rip-of is I do not think we had sufficient ground work to establish him as such prior to his reveal, especially since it comes after his rather disapointing contribution to the unlocking of the oathgate… I disagree we needed him to illustrates not all Radiants were warriors as we already had Jasnah and Shallan for that. In fact, if you look at our small Radiant crew, they are running quite low on warriors……………
You are right is saying we don’t know enough to draw conclusions one way or another, but we sure can speculate ;-)
@82: Yes :-) Your analysis is right. However, we do have strong clues as to who would fit each spot.
Skybreaker: It is quite established Szeth will eventually become a real Skybreaker. Book 3 is his book and the featured order are the Skybreakers. I agree there is argumentation to be made against, however it looks more probable he’ll make it to Radianhood. After all, he quite obssessed about the law… Now the big question is how will he ever managed to work with Dalinar….
Willshaper: This one is less clear. Most theories place Eshonai as a Willshaper. Arguments in favor are: the comet-like spren that flew from her which Brandon confirmed was related to one of the orders, the fact she was refered as the Explorer, a title well fitting for a Willshaper who love exploration and adventure, the fact she is set to be the main character of book 4 and that main characters tends to be Radiant (so far). Arguments against are: she is a Parshendi and they have never been allowed to be Radiant in the past, however we do have a WoB stating things may be changing, but it could be Brandon was talking about Rlain becoming a squire……. We don’t really know, but the clues placing Eshonai as a Willshaper are quite strong.
Stonewards: We have Taln. We are not really sure is Taln is really Taln, but it has been pretty much established he’ll be poster-boy for the Stonewards. It could also be the Stonewards are the one order that didn’t break down and that Szeth will find a whole bunch of them in Shinovar, thus eliminating the need for another Stoneward.
Dustbringer: This one, we are in the blue. Favored contender is Adolin, but he has a long to go and there is still the matter of his actions at the end of WoR. There are good arguments for and good arguments against, but nothing as solid as for Szeth/Eshonai. Another contender is Rysn as her jump was an act of bravery, the Dustbringer main attribute. The lost of her legs also place her in a position of “brokeness”. I, personally, do not feel very strongly about her as I feel she would better fit with the Willshaper, her being a merchant looking for odities.
@82: I forgot… Ym…
Ym used the surge of Progression in WoR which places him as either a Truthwatcher or an Edgedancer. The fact his spren looked like a glowing light of sort seem to indicate Truthwatchers which have Illumination as one of their surges. Also, his tendancy to ask for stories suggest the “learned” attribute. He is also being very secretive, as a person, and did passed out as the village weirdo, which fits the Truthwatchers quite well.
We do not have a solid confirmation just yet, but the strongest clues place him as another Truthwatcher. Now, what we don’t know is if the Truthwatchers sent more than one spren or if his spren is indeed Glys who, after Glys’s death, went looking for someone else….
FWIW, I don’t think the fact that Book 3 may be focused on the Skybreakers means that Szeth will necessarily become a Skybreaker. It may be a set-up to show what the Skybreakers aren’t. We’ve had two books where the Order glyph is the same as a character who is in the process of becoming a member of that Order, but I don’t think that means every book will work that way. If nothing else, Taln and Shalash are Heralds, and therefore not too likely to become Knights Radiant… so… yeah.
More importantly, I don’t see Brandon being quite that predictable. If we knew that the flashback character for each book was destined to become a Radiant, it would be very odd for Brandon to tell us this far ahead just who those characters are. Out of character, in fact.
As far as Renarin’s character… it wasn’t obvious on a first read, but when you look back, it should hit you like A Metric Ton Of Bricks that whatever his physical limitations, his strength of character is astounding.
Interesting discussion. Now, I LOVE theorizing based on the hints and evidence. That was half of what made the Wheel of Time fun, and I love Sanderson even more. I would say that I find it hard to be vehement about any of my theories about the future since I am sometimes rightish, but often very wrong. (Poor Adolin is going to fall…)
Re: Elhokar. (A little long–sorry.)
Navani, whom I at least trust as a rational viewpoint character–though certainly capable of being irrational about Shallan–doesn’t regard Gavilar as a good husband. Jasnah regards him as shrewd, but not necessarily a good father. Dalinar now thinks of his and Gavilar’s Thrill-driven conquest of the kingdom as antithetical to an honorable rule. Gavilar was at least involved with Amaram’s aims, and one could wonder if he was as ruthless in pursuit of them. Point being, Elhokar could have much independent learning to do as someone independent of Gavilar’s shadow, much like Dalinar, and taking a little longer is at least forgivable in my book. I think we would have hated Dalinar’s persona and morals only 6 years ago in book time.
I think the evidence of Elhokar seeing Cryptics like Shallan saw is very strong. As someone else sort of mentioned, we don’t know much of anything about Elhokar’s outside interests. He would be buttonholed into princedom and manly fighting from birth. He may love arts, but would never have a drawn manifestation of the Cryptics because he doesn’t do that sort of thing. One sign mentioned by both Shallan and Dalinar that the palace was becoming more than a war headquarters was the increasingly ornate artwork evident. We don’t know if this stems directly from Elhokar’s taste, or is just ardents or others.
“Discerning” honorspren like Syl apparently hate Cryptics. We don’t understand the Cryptic selection process much. They’re not
necessarily looking for “moral” folks. Maybe they look for liars like Shallan who they can predict will be influential. Maybe these lighteyes of the cognitive realm would bond with a Tyn, an Amaram, or a Sadeas if a ruthless pragmatic evaluation showed them they would be in position to stop the Voidbringers. Maybe Shallan being so sympathetic is a fotunate coincidence.
I think the possibility of drastic change, someone becoming their best self as opposed to their worst self, is Gaz, who coincidentally is also a likely Cryptic target. It’s not just Shallan’s powers…Gaz was ready to wholeheartedly jump to a new self. He really was the evil slimebag from WoK, but I think he really is the helpful, thoughtful, and humor appreciating supporter he shows in WoR. I think Elhokar has a change like this coming, whether with a boost from Shallan or not, I don’t know. (I also think Gaz and Kaladin will have some sort of…not reconciliation…but moment of appreciation when they are forced to work together.)
When I saw the informative list of Order-associated attributes in comment 71, I immediately thought that the Willshaper’s “resoluteness” was the opposite of what Elhokar was displaying, and somehow my immediate suspicion of what he would become. He wants to be resolute, but has trouble knowing when to be strong and when to be merciful and has listened to the wrong people at times. (I am struck by the strong parallel to Rehoboam, Solomon’s son, who took counsel that he had to be harder than his father in order to be respected. He lost the kingdom which argues against what I’m saying, but he was never penitent for following the bad advice of those telling him to be merciless. I think the parallel is intentional, but Elhokar is going to subvert the expectation.)
What led me to typing all this up is that I then ran across the epigraph from Words of Radiance, Chapter 50, pg. 582.
And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiants, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them “capricious, frustrating, unreliable,” as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.
Elhokar in a nutshell. (The hunt and confrontation w/ the chasmfiend, the footrace with Dalinar, his enjoyment of Wit, being a few indications of the adventure/novelty love mentioned last) I think he will become something better than his dad, if sometimes still prone to the “frustrating unreliability” he has shown up until now.
And a question for those who understand the Radiant power diagram better than I do. Are the Willshapers near the Lightweavers on the diagram?
Patillian @88 – Wow. Just… WOW.
Well done. Especially that quote about the Willshapers: if that doesn’t describe Elhokar to a gnat’s eyebrow, I don’t know what does!! I’d never even noticed that similarity.
Another good argument for Elhokar as either Willshaper or Lightweaver is the hint that he glimpses the cognitive realm. It’s fairly clear that the ones he describes in TWoK were Cryptics, but in WoR he talks about “shadows” – which could be anything, really. In any case, we’re given the knowledge that while the Elsecallers are the only Order with real mastery of the cognitive realm, both the Willshapers and the Lightweavers have significant access to it.
Well, it will be what it will be, but it’s always fun to have a different angle to consider!
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing!
Re: an earlier conversation, I inadvertently did a search… and the only time Shallan “saw” the Cryptics in TWoK was when she was drawing from a Memory.
Rats – I didn’t see your note @89 before I posted. Yes, the Lightweavers and Willshapers are on either side of the Elsecallers on the Radiant diagram.
@87: We do have another WoB stating we have met a representative (or future representative) of each order. Our little pool of characters is not that big… Szeth has fallout and I for one is not a fan of his. However, he was approched by Nalan and he does have the necessary obssession about law requierd to become a good/real Skybreaker. He was also set up as an antagonist to Kal and I believe both orders do not get along quite well.
I agree this is not fall-proof evidence that Szeth is indeed a Skybreaker and I do agree having a character being scheduled for flashback does not garanty Radianship, except… Except we have had Kal and Shallan so far: Radiants. We are going to have Dalinar, Jasnah, Renarin and List: all Radiants. Two heralds, one being perhaps Taln or not Taln or something fishy in between and Shalash who does not fit at all. I agree Brandon is not predictable, but chances are Szeth and Eshonai are going to make it. I’d give it, say, a 90% chances of happening?
I think we are going to disagree on Renarin. I have not been impressed by him in WoR, even on re-read, even after reading the lenghty essays his die-hard fans tend to write. If his strenght of character was this impressive, then how come he does not come forward to his father about his new abilities? His father whom is having troubling visions as well and whom has never been anything else but understanding towards him? Alright, he was afraid. Fine. Then why didn’t he talked to his brother? Aren’t these two supposed to be real close? Alright, he was afraid, he thought he was going crazy. I get it, but the fact he couldn’t summon the strenght to talk to his extremely supportive family does not play in his favor.
There is also the matter of the oathgate incident. Alright, I understand, he had a vision they were all going to die and what does he do about it? He breaks down and wimpers. If he were this amazingly strong, then he would have strived to disprove it, he would have trust everything he’s got to make sure it does not happen. But he didn’t.
I am not saying he is a wimp: he is quite brave at time and he has shown some resilience, but I disagree when other people claim he is the strongest character ever. He is not there yet. He has some qualities, but he has a lot of work to do.
@88: You are forgetting the fact Pattern mentions no other cryptic then him came forward to bond human. He was the test case and it nearly failed….
You mention Gaz, which is improving as a person while following Shallan. He may even become her squire. This is true. However, Elhokar has yet to even start changing. Currently, as he is, he is not Radiant material, which is why I would sorely disapointed to find out a spren was attracted to him, as he is now.
As for Willshaper resoluteness, well, it is their first attribute. So far, all Radiant are thriving into their first attribute. It is the core of their personality. It is not something they have to work to acheive, it just transpires throught them. Elhokar is not resolute. He is not determined, unwavering, nor purposefull: in fact he is quite the opposite. He is unreliable, true, but that is not an attribute.
I agree with you however that Galivar probably was a poor father and a terrible husband, much unlike Dalinar who is doing his best to raise his sons. I alsoo agree he is quite fishy and I do believe he was not as good as Dalinar is leading us to believe. Dalinar’s judgement, when it comes to his brother, is, I believe, very clouded.
I was unaware of any WoB that we have already met someone who is or will be a Radiant of every Order. If that is indeed the case, I would submit that Moash is a better candidate for Skybreaker than Szeth.
@90: Willshapers first attribute is resolute. How is Elhokar resolute in any way? I guess we could consider is persistence in trying to convince Dalinar is unfounded paranoia was real as resoluteness, but it was so lame……
There is so many characters I could see as Radiants, but honestly, Elhokar is one I just can’t. He is downright despicable and arguments in favor of him becoming a Radiant does not weight sufficiently against his personality. Radiants have to better then regular folks, they have to be an inspiration and Elhokar just does not pass that test.
Needless to say I will be an unhappy reader to see myself proven wrong. There is also the fact it would completely destroy Adolin to see a wimp such as Elhokar become a Radiant while he gets nothing.
@93: There is one, but it’s going to take me a while to fish it out…. Hang on, I’ll try.
Moash broke the law. Skybreakers would not want him, just like they won’t want Adolin.
Alright. There it is. I guess it is up for interpretation… I read it as we have met everyone, but some don’t have a spren yet. Therefore, our Radiant crew will be composed with characters we already know as opposed to unkown yet to be introduced character.
Q: Have we seen a Knight of all of the Orders yet?
A: You have not seen a Knight of all of the orders yet I don’t believe.
Q: Even one that doesn’t have a spren yet?
A: I think you have met everybody.
I fully expect to see Adolin hit rock bottom, probably in exile, break, and then kick butt as a Radiant.
Is the faults you see in Elhokar the ways he is broken?
Frankly, I was pretty frustrated with Kaladin this book. He did a lot of shmuck things. Shallan did a lot of shmuck things in the first book. The question is not, are you a shmuch, but are you willing to rise above being a shmuck. While Elhokar is definely a shmuck, he does have a willingness to rise above it.
@97: I don’t think so…
Kaladin was annoying at times, I agree, but he always did his best to protect his people. Despite being depressed and suicidal he still work extra hard to shelter those he felt responsible for.
Shallan did her best to create better lies for her family. She is very keen on seeing them safe.
Elhokar has done nothing. Sure he probably is broken: his paranoia is sure a good sign of this, but his behavior does not speak Radian to me. All others have worked through their hardships by becoming more Radiant-like. Not Elhokar. He got worst. He turned into a bully.
Poor Adolin. I had so many discussions on what may befallen him, I am not sure what I think anymore. I think he’ll struggle just surviving through the next few books and he’ll most likely gets ostracized from his loved ones, either by exile or other means. However, I do think seeing Elhokar becoming a Radiant, asssuming he does, will be the straw that brakes the camel’s back.
One thing to note: I’ve seen people mentioning talk of one radiant from each order. While it would make sense for the books to follow a representative of each order, I don’t necessarily believe that there will be only 10 radiants, one from each order. I view the spren who have come so far as sort of test cases. Wyndle and Pattern were sent by their respective species. Syl came despite the Stormfather’s opposition. Etc.. But at the end of WOR Teft mentioned seeing multiple bridgemen using stormlight (not to mention the great scene of Lopen regrowing his arm). I think that maybe the spren are starting to bond humans in force, to help prepare for the coming Desolation, and there will be many radiants from multiple Orders when all is said and done. Just something to keep in mind.
I agree that Elhokar, as presented in the first 2 books of the series, is an unsympathetic character whose poor decision making, lack of leadership, and self-centeredness make him a poor Radiant candidate. His fear of assassination, moreover, veers towards a paranoid obsession. On the other hand, someone often confronted with strange visions of symbol heads peering at him, might be justified in thinking that ‘they’re out to get him’. The somewhat redeeming aspects related thus far are his appreciation of Wit (Hoid) and his honesty in admitting his failures in decision making and leadership to a member of the lower caste in Alethi society (Kaladin). BWS, presumably, has established a character arc for Elhokar, we can only speculate.
Of interest, however, is that some commentors seem to have no problem with Szeth becoming a Skybreaker Radiant. we were informed in WOK that all Radiant candidates had to subscribe to the 3 basic oaths: life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination. How does Szeth’s behavior fit that mold? He kills the innocent because he feels compelled to follow the dictates of anyone holding his oathstone, since that has been proscribed for him by the Shin elders. That’s not life before death or journey before destination. While his extremism in following Shin law may win him the approval of Nalan, why would this Surgebinder – potential Radiant slayer be considered capable of advancing anyone to Radianthood. If anything, he could be considered a tool of Odium and a powerful opponent of the Radiants.
I agree that Elhokar, as presented in the first 2 books of the series, is an unsympathetic character whose poor decision making, lack of leadership, and self-centeredness make him a poor Radiant candidate. His fear of assassination, moreover, veers towards a paranoid obsession. On the other hand, someone often confronted with strange visions of symbol heads peering at him, might be justified in thinking that they’re out to get him. The somewhat redeeming aspects related thus far are his appreciation of Wit (Hoid) and his honesty in admitting his failures in decision making and leadership to a member of the lower caste in Alethi society (Kaladin). BWS, presumably, has established a character arc for Elhokar, we can only speculate.
Of interest, however, is that some commentors seem to have no problem with Szeth becoming a Skybreaker Radiant. we were informed in WOK that all Radiant candidates had to subscribe to the 3 basic oaths: life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination. How does Szeth’s behavior fit that mold? He kills the innocent because he feels compelled to follow the dictates of anyone holding his oathstone, since that has been proscribed for him by the Shin elders. That’s not life before death or journey before destination. While his extremism in following Shin law may win him the approval of Nalan, why would this Surgebinder – potential Radiant slayer be considered capable of advancing anyone to Radianthood. If anything, he could be considered a tool of Odium and a powerful opponent of the Radiants.
Sorry about that double post.
@99: Well, there will in all probability be more than one Radiant per order, however I do think there will be one main one. Others will remain side characters, which is probably why we are focusing on single individuals. As for bridge four, I believe it has been established they are becoming Kal’s squires and not Radiants.
@100: I failed to see how appreciating Wit is a quality… We know Wit is important, but how does liking him come into play? How is it redeeming? Wit does not have a say as to who the sprens chose. Besides, Elhokar probably likes him because he does a good job as Wit in insulting the highprinces.
As for his admission to Kaladin: he was drunk, wasted. Alcohool makes people do things they may not have done had they been sober. Now, I may have taken it as a redeeming quality had he approched Kal in normal circumstances, but the fact he waited to be this drunk to do it plays against him. There is also the fact admitting such things to Kal have little consequences. Kal is unlikely to speak to anyone about it, which makes him the perfect candidate for a confession. It’s not like he opened up to his family or one of his trusted advisors.
I tend to agree with you about Szeth. However, I have read lenghty discussions as to why he should be a Skybreaker. True he has not been all that Radiant-like, but the same could be said about Dalinar…. and Jasnah… and Shallan who all have dirty secrets. In the case of Dalinar, it is more than dirty secrets: the man launched a war that killed thousands and was known to make heads roll on a whim. Jasnah murdered thugs just so she could teach a lesson to Shallan, a crime Brandon has admitted was quite worst than Adolin lost of control towards Sadeas. Szeth murdered people, but he did it while following the law. Theorically speaking, he was not breaking any Skybreaker oaths, in fact he was so obssessed in maintening them he turned crazy.
If the Elsecallers can be happy with Jasnah the assassin, then perhaps the Skybreakers can be thrilled with Szeth the crazy killer who puts law above his own sanity.
Maxal @@@@@94 – No, “Resolute” is the primary divine attribute associated with the Vorin idealization of the Herald Kalak. It’s not used in the text (that I can find) to describe members of the Order itself. I’ve been reminded repeatedly in the last month or two that the table in the Ars Arcanum is, as stated, “an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences.” In many cases it reflects a religious idealization rather than an actual characteristic of either the Herald or the Order associated with it.
As for “Radiants have to better then regular folks,” – not really. They certainly don’t always start out “better” than everyone else, nor do they always start out as “inspiring,” IMO. They have to get there. As you yourself say @@@@@104.
@@@@@95 – “Moash broke the law. Skybreakers would not want him, just like they won’t want Adolin.” And Szeth didn’t? Sorry, I don’t buy your reasoning on this (also @@@@@104). He’s an assassin. Assassination is, by definition, outside the law. Moash, whatever he intended, didn’t even kill a single person.
MDNY @@@@@99 – I agree.
STBLST @@@@@100 (and 101 – heh) – I think the lack of sympathetic characterization is one of the reasons I believe Elhokar may be headed for Radiancy, though I don’t think it’s a 100% certainty. I like the idea of taking someone we don’t actually like all that much and turning him around so that he overcomes a great deal to be a true Radiant. It would have to be done believably, but I know Brandon is capable of it.
Re: Szeth becoming a Skybreaker – RIGHT ON. The characteristics he displays are pretty much the opposite of the First Ideal. I pity him, but that doesn’t mean I think he can just be a Radiant now. And I agree: while the Herald Nalan was once the patron of the Skybreakers (however reluctantly he came to accept it), all we’ve seen of him recently is going around searching for justification to “execute” (a.k.a. murder) emerging Radiants. Not sure that really qualifies him to grant Knighthood to anyone! Whatever he may once have been, he lost his creds when he walked away from his Honorblade and broke the Oathpact.
About book 3… I don’t know what Brandon is going to do, and even if I get to help with the beta it’s over a year away. My best speculation at this point, though, is that Szeth’s backstory will provide either a parallel or a counterpoint to someone else’s development as a Skybreaker. With this version of Nalan as his mentor, things don’t look good for him. IMO.
Maxal @@@@@ 104 – I think you’re confusing a couple of different events. When Elhokar was talking to Kaladin about his regrets and failures, he was not “drunk, wasted.” Kaladin specifically thought “He’d been drinking, though he didn’t appear drunk.” I don’t think you can write it off as saying things he wouldn’t have said if he was sober; he’d been actively seeking this conversation with Kaladin for well over a week. But Kaladin was too focused on his own grievances, and told him the best thing he could do for the kingdom was step down. It wasn’t until the next day, when Kaladin had the realization that “the king was Dalinar’s Tien” and went to find him, that he was totally plowed.
With regards to Nalan, I recall Brandon saying something about the Heralds, that they thought they were done with the Oath, but it wasn’t nearly done with them.
Nalan and the rest I suspect are going to have a redemptive arc, even if they have to go through hell to get there.
@92 Well said that Dalinar’s recollections of Gavilar appear very unreliable. The nature of Gavilar’s black orb that Szeth has hidden will be one of the most interesting future revelations to come.
I think your speculation about Eshonai being able to become a Radiant somehow is also supported by a bit of their song on pg. 377:
But it is not impossible to blend
Their Surges to ours in the end.
It has been promised and it can come.
Or do we understand the sum?
So she could somehow learn to be a “blend” and be a Radiant.
We also agree that Elhokar & Renarin have not been impressive, though I give some degree of allowance to Renarin as being a person with something similar to conditions on the autism spectrum. But I still think Elhokar and Renarin will be Radiants and continue the redemptive character arcs already evident in the first two books.
Most of your disagreement seems to come from your belief that “Radiants must be better.” I think that is absolutely possible, but also definitely debatable. Kaladin’s 2-book arc about honor and worthiness hangs over all of our Radiant perceptions and likely colors our ideas. There’s the Words of Radiance epigraph I quoted about the “erratic, capricious, frustrating, unreliable, varied, inconsistent” Willshapers who nevertheless kept their powers despite not being “resolute,” (I like the description of the attribute chart as idealistic/not completely accurate) , weird allusions about Dustbringers, Jasnah’s very debatable morality coupled with her spren’s introduction to her by almost killing her, and the fact that Renarin also fulfills an epigraph’s description of his order even though I agree with you that his lack of openness was a negative choice. (Like Kaladin’s that he was also eventually overcame) Pg. 597 Chap 52 “the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did.” It appears there must have been some constraint about speaking of what they did if the “entire” order didn’t speak of it, and maybe stress about this constraint and what it may entail contributed to Renarin’s stress and erratic behavior in WoR. It also seems to emphasize that orders on different ends of the diagram have very different spren-choosing techniques, interactions with others, characters, etc.
And even if they do need to be better, or at least very strong in necessary attributes as you detail, I think the series is detailing redemptive arcs of change with many characters. Six years ago, Dalinar was very unpious and largely without Honor as defined by the Way of Kings and the Thrill–he’s now defining himself as the opposite of the Blackthorn; Shallan was self-defined by her passivity and defensive forgetfulness, but now is defining herself as the opposite of those things; Kaladin’s loss of honor “killed” his spren and he managed to “bring her back to life” by becoming honorable again (It’s so hard to do that it appears the Stormfather regarded the state as de facto permenent and no other Windrunner ever did it that we know of); and Gaz is defined by being helpful, compassionate, and humorous in WoR (building windows for Shallan, obtaining Words of Radiance at great effort, laughing at her humor, being the first to speak up and crave a new start when Shallan first “recruits” them in the dark, etc.), while he was defined by being the exact opposite in WoK. He was far worse than either Elhokar or Renarin, and was having the hints of shadows at the corners of his vision. So Elhokar could become extremely resolute and heroic. This pattern of possibilities of drastic character change also gives me hope for Adolin, but he could just as easily be an examplar of the possibility of drastic negative change.
The practical difficulty of there only being one Cryptic in the physical realm could I think be explained by differences in how the different spren operate. Pattern is the only Cryptic so far, just as Syl only honorspren so far. Syl “haunted” Kaladin for a long time in the physical realm in a forgetful state and her physical realm appearance as a wind spren. The strong speculation is that the larger, adult-size form of her shown at crucial moments is her cognitive realm appearance. We know that the Cryptics, however, haunted Shallan in their forms from the cognitive realm. So their pre-screening/preparation phase can be done somehow from the cognitive realm without forgetting. This would make sense of the orders with strong affinities for the cognitive realm such as the Elsecallers, Lightweavers, and Willshapers. So Pattern may be the only one now, but Gaz, Elhokar, and others could be approaching the time for a physical crossover bond.
The ones seeing these things being to either side of the Elsecallers in the connected order diagram and explained as having facility with the cognitive realm seems decent evidence to support this speculation.
But as I said, I can see your reasoning, and I’m sure even those of us with correct guesses in broad terms will be surprised by the interesting details of character and plot.
My last unrelated note is about the Skybreaker discussion. I agree that the spren define the powers rather than the Heralds since they created the Radiants before the Heralds decided to adopt and mold them into orders. Nalan may have finally defined the order and still be claming it, but he wouldn’t have the power to grant powers except via Honorblades and possibly psycho-shard/honorblades, e.g. Nightblood. I think there is a very strong possibility that the one order that “entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine” (pg. 464, Chap. 41 epigraph from Words of Radiance) is the Skybreakers, and that is somehow why their order still exists at least in name and leader. If their spren somehow didn’t give them up, further differentiating them from the other nine orders, that would definitely indicate a very strong difference in spren morality.
Maxal, thank you for your elaboration @85.
I’m not agreeing with everything (especially Szeth and your strong opinon on Elhokar), and Taln I don’t see, because I still take him as a Herald and not a Radiant(-to-be). Eshonai is more convincing for me, but everything is interesting.
Please don’t take this too serious and not as an insult, but reading your words @94: (“Willshapers first attribute is resolute. How is Elhokar resolute in any way? I guess we could consider is persistence in trying to convince …”)
… it occured to me, that you, yourself might make a good Willshaper ;)
Patillian @88 … Willshaper for Elhokar sounds suddenly very convincing for me.
Wetlandernw @87:
If nothing else, Taln and Shalash are Heralds, and therefore not too likely to become Knights Radiant… so… yeah.
Well, is there any official reason to think that ex-Heralds can’t become Radiants? Maybe even Radiants of a different Order than the one they used to be patrons of? I mean, they are certainly broken enough to allow a bond and after thousands of years they may be changed enough in personality, too.
Re: Shallan “seeing” Cryptics in WoK – didn’t she actually see them without drawing immediately before becoming panicked and soulcasting that goblet? Also, Shallan’s apparent inability to see Cryptics directly was probably connected to her massive mental blocks, so another budding surge-binder might have been able to see them in her place.
It has also been mentioned – sorry, no time to look for attribution, that Pattern was the only Cryptic to bond a human. Well, that was the case 6 years ago, but do we know if it is still true as of WoK/WoR?
Re: personality mis-matches between a budding surge-binder and their prospective order, there was that epigraph that said that they could happen too – the one about a simple, straighforward guy, who got bound by Cryptic and thus couldn’t progress.
Personally, I feel that we have enough proto-Radiant Kholins and don’t need more, but I don’t think that Elokhar can be conclusively dismissed as a candidate, from what we know so far.
Maxal :
I am no rabid Renarin defender, but IMHO he was terrified of revealing himself, because “seeing the future is of the voidbringers”. Dalinar saw the events of the past, so it was different. Renarin was probably desperately hoping that he’d be able to supress his ability or whatever. He was basically in the same state of mind as a new male channeler would be in early WoT.
And that on top of feeling as a burden and a disappointment to his family for his whole life. So, yea, let’s not dismiss the stress he was under.
And uncomplainingly trying to learn to handle a screaming shardblade was no mean feat either. Etc., etc. I would say that Renarin has proven his resilience and bravery, though not in particularly constructive ways.
Elhokar: Wow, the posts went from 77 to 100+ when I refreshed my phone this weekend. He caused some strong feelings.
To me, he’s gotten in that whole trap of “The son of a great man, is rarely great.” Yet, I’m not sure why.
His mother had to be involved with his education and raising, even if Gavilar was busy off fighting a war of unification.
Yet Moshes’ story shows that Elhokar has been easily swayed by the words of those around him for years. And not in the best way. Let’s face it, often people in power or near power draw the attention of false friends. People who use others just to get what helps them. It takes a strong personality, or a deeply personal betrayal for the powerful person to call bullshit on the flatters around them.
Jasnah called that BS a long time ago. Elhokar never has for some reason.
If he has been seeing Cryptics out of the corner of his eyes for 6 years (shortly after Ivory showed himself to Jasnah, that could explain his paranoia. It started around the same time he came into true power, and his father was killed. Nothing to do with how active Szeth was until 6 months ago. Even if it started a year after Gavilar’s death, constantly seeing a figure out of the corner of your eye is going to freak you out. And if you already have a reason to fear assassination, then that’s what you will latch onto.
Have we forgotten that Jasnah kept an assassin on retainer? Even if Szeth never became active again, he’s not the only assassin in this world. Remember “Knives at the back” anyone?
So yes, he’s behaved like a spoiled brat for two books. I hope his time with Lopen’s family will be a boot to his spiritual head. Let’s see how Brandon spins out the story to redeem him / or not.
People talking about the future set of Books 6-10 got me to thinking.
Estimated publication years:
Book 3: 2016
Book 4: 2018
Book 5: 2020
Break for years as he writes Mistborn 2 grouping: 2021-2026
Next set of 5…
Well, my son will be around 16 when the next set starts, so he should be ready to tackle the whole Cosmere thing by then.
But it is also a little saddening to think how long it is going to be before all the questions are answered. This is why I originally was trying to stay away from the Stormlight books. When I started WoT, it was my first epic fantasy and the friend that loaned me the books didn’t tell me it was unfinished.
This one I have no one but myself to blame. Eyes wide open to start. But at least I have all of you to share the pain and the fun. I was not part of the WoT online fun until finding Leigh’s Reread.
Good thing Brandon is a writing workaholic.
@111 Braid_Tug- Exactly. Even with the long timeline for the end of the SA, we can look forward to a book or 2 every year from BWS to keep us entertained.
Isilel @109 – that scene is why I had to go back and reread. It’s really crazy, too. Shallan is hurrying through the crowd, glancing back for a Memory and then sketching frantically to see where they are – and there are at least five of them following her. She ends up running to her room, blinking Memories and sketching, and the last one is her huddled on her bed with a Cryptic reaching for her. It’s rather creepy… Poor kid.
Maxal, I would agree with you about Elhokar were it not for the fact that he, too, sees symbolheads. Unless, you believe that he was only hallucinating or that the figures were produced by Odium or lieutenants, you appear forced to consider Sanderson’s possible later ‘promotion’ of this hitherto weak king to Radiant status. Nor would this be the first character in the series to achieve such status despite moral failings. While some may be infatuated with Jasnah, I am certainly not one of them. To me, she is arrogant and ruthless, a characteristic that persists to the end of WOR (she may have relented a bit at the very end). Yet, she is a Radiant – possibly, the first. Presumably, she has learned to regret her earlier episodes of assassination before achieving Radiant status. Her moral and character flaws appear effectively negated by her sense of mission and drive to rescue humankind in Roshar from the foreseen Desolation. On the other hand, Taravangian’s extremely ruthless and murderous behavior towards patients, foreign peoples, and leaders can not possibly be excused by his desire to preserve a remnant of humanity from that Desolation.
@114 I think Jasnah is just living by the Zeroeth
LawOath ofRoboticsRadiants: Arobotradiant may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.;)
@Wetlandernw
@105: The text was an extract from the Words of Radiance, a book written years after the Recreance, if I am not mistaken. I f I am, then my bad. Anyhow, it is nowhere a near complete caracterisation of the Radiants. It seemed to drew an average portrayal of each knights and it appears Willshapers came out as erratics. However, we do have clues the primary attribute is of core importance for a spren chosing its knight.
Kaladin was chosen because his desire to protect people transpired the traumatic ordeal of losing his brother.
Shallan was chosen because of her propension to create strong lies for those surrounding her.
Dalinar was chosen because he became as pious as a monk :-O
We do not know enough about the others to draw conclusion, but we can gathered why Jasnah is “wise”, Renarin “learned” and Lift “loving”.
Unless you have information I have not seen to support your claim the primary attribute is not necesarily to route out potential knights, I will keep looking at it as my main screening field.
You are right in saying they do not always start up great, but they do have to get there. My whole issue with Elhokar is he has not even started improving yet. He has taken no direct action to better his person, to show his resolve or his creativity or anything linked to any Radiant order. Based on this, I sincerely doubt any sprens would lose time with him as it is not conclusive he even has what it takes to make such change.
As for Moash, he participated in a attempt to murder the king. Taken part into a conspiration against your king is against the law, no matter the end result. He is also guilty of thievery as he stole his shards away from the Kohlin army. And yes, he was not allowed to do that: he even had to hide them.
Szeth is a different matter. While I agree he broke the law by murdering kings, he did so while following the law of his own country which stipulates he has to obey to the owner of his oathstone, no matter the order. It drove him crazy as he faced an impossible task: no matter what he did, he ended breaking the law. A terrible faith for a prospective Skybreaker. These reasons are why I do believe he will end up as a true Radiant.
@107: Renarin has not been impressive due to his handling of his new powers. It is unfair, I believe to compare him to Elhokar. Renarin has done nothing else than desperatly trying to be useful, trying to better himself (in the wrong way but still the intend was there) and trying to protect his family even when it was clear he couldn’t. His jump in the arena does testify to the love he bears to his brother as he was willing to sacrifice himself for him (Kohlin brothers are so adorable).
Elhokar has done nothing. He has not even tried. I have always thought it was unfair to compare him to Tien. Tien was a small boy who couldn’t defend himself. Elhokar is a grown man and yet he keeps acting like a spoiled brat. Each time he had an occasion to actually take concrete actions: he chose to status quo.
@108: Well, I have never said I believed Taln would become a Radiant. I just feel he will be our main point of vue for the Stonewards as a Herald, not a Radiant.
Thanks about the Willshapers… To think I have always thought I’d be a better Elsecaller… Could be I was wrong ;-) I tend to be persistent in my argumentation and Elhokar is one character I despised so much.
@109: I do not like the argument about having too many Kohlin Radiants. I always cringed when people bring it forward in the numerous discussions about Adolin as I feel it is a valid one. The family ties are, I believe, irrevelant. What matters, I believe, is if the said character has the potential to be a true Radiant.
I do not think Elhokar has it and I would be disapointed if he did. However, I feel strongly about Adolin who has been so keen on doing “the right thing” and inadvertly put himself into a corner.
I agree Renarin has shown bravery and resilience. I agree his trials to learn to master his screaming shardblade were quite telling. However, I feel it does not weight as much in the balance as his reluctance to open up at least to his brother and his crumbling apart at the end. Imo, I still have hopes for him.
@110: We have no proof he has been seeing cryptics for 6 years… The first time he mentions it is in WoK. So as far as I am concern, it is a new thing.
@114: I tend to believe they are indeed hallucination caused by agents other than cryptics or Radiant related sprens. Elhokar has just not exhibit the proper personna that have drawn out a spren just yet.
The other argument I could bring forward is the fact I just cannot fanthom why a spren would chose Elhokar amongst all other available people…. Why not Adolin? Why not Navani? Why not Teft? Why not Rock? Why not Lopen? Why him? He has done nothing to deserve it, worst he has done nothing to prove he could ever be worthy of it. It seem like a huge gamble to make for a little spren just coming out of the cognitive realm. Imo, I agree this is probably my weakest argument.
I expect we will see a great many people become Radiants. The Kholins are simply the “early-adopters”. I suspect almost anyone could become a surge-binder, if a spren was willing. They are not all as discerning as Honorspren – was it Nahoden who said that?
Just what traits does a Cultivation-spren look for anyway? Wyndle didn’t seem particularly moral or concerned with it. Perhaps Elhokar is being focused on purely BECAUSE of his position as king, and not for any personal attributes.
But while he makes a ^*%# poor king, I think the fact he stepped up to the challenge because he had to, does demonstrate a kind of honor.
I really don’t think we know enough about Elhokar to say much one way or the other yet. Much of what we have seen is not flattering, but that really just means we are over-analyzing a few tea leaves. I want to see more of him before I decide yet.
Maxal @@@@@ 116 – “Unless you have information I have not seen to support your claim the primary attribute is not necesarily to route out potential knights, I will keep looking at it as my main screening field.”
You may, of course, look at it any way you like. I don’t think it will bother the spren overmuch.
I have pointed out that the Ars Arcanum “Ten Essences” chart isn’t really a documentation of the character of either the associated Herald or the Knights Radiant Order for two reasons. One is, as I quoted above, the fact that the Ars Arcanum itself states that the chart is “an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences.” The other is that Peter has reminded me several times that all these traditions, including the icons on the chapter arch, reflect a religious idealization of the Heralds, and may not have anything at all to do with real people.
I realize you are convinced of your assessments of the relative merit of various characters, based on what we’ve seen of their actions, and in some cases their PoV, combined with what you believe attracts the various spren. My argument is that we don’t know enough on either count to be qualified to make such determinations.
In most cases where it’s still open for speculation, we know only what we’ve seen characters do; we haven’t been in their heads enough to have any idea what motivates them. (The same is mostly true for Renarin & Jasnah, really.) What are their fears? What are their loves? What do they see? What do they know? What have they lived? Without that, we don’t know enough to judge their character.
Add to that, we’ve only gotten to know a very few spren – one from each of four orders, plus glimpses of a couple others. Except possibly for Syl, we don’t know much about what drew them. We don’t know whether they are representative of all of their family, or more individualistic. We don’t know whether they always look for characteristics, for potential, for both, or for something else altogether – or whether there is necessarily anything consistent about what they seek.
Given how much we don’t know, I choose to keep a very open mind about who may or may not become a Radiant. Sure, I have my favorites and my hopes. But with a character like Elhokar (since he’s been the focus here), I prefer to wait and see. I’m pretty sure Brandon already knows what he intends, and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t really care whether or not I think someone is “worthy.” So… I’m not going to set myself up to be angry because he did something different than I expected. My only expectation is that he will make me believe it.
Why, yes, I do like to play devil’s advocate.
Zen @117 – This.
@118: Actually, I do believe most of the evidence we have in book points towards this way. It could be the Ars Arcanum is not conclusive material, I have however still not find any decent proof the attributes given to each order does not apply. My theory has always been the first attribute is what attracts the spren, the second is what a knight must work on improving to reach the fifth level.
Proof, I believe can be extrapolated from our test cases.
Our first test case is Kaladin. We know, for a fact, it was his inclination to protect people despite all that drew Syl to him. Also, both his second and his third oaths revolve around the attribute of “protection”. Syl empahised on a few occasions that Kaladin has to learn to not just protect people, but to lead them as well: the Windrunners second attribute. I have yet to find one proof that dismantle the attribute associated to the Windrunners.
We can also look at our second test case, Shallan. We know, from Pattern, he chose her as she had talent to create powerful lies: albeit she was extremely creative. Strangely, the Lightweavers first attribute is creativity. As for her oaths, she does not have any: she has to move forward by speaking truths, quite fitting since the second attribute is said to be honesty. She has to learn to be true to herself to make it to full Radianhood.
Our third test case is Dalinar. It is only has he forsook his old ways that he attracted the stormfather. From his own admission, he found the only way to control his emotional impulse was to give himself a very strict set of rules, albeit the Way of Kings. He thus turned his life around and lived like a quasi-monk. He became devout in his following of the Way fo Kings and he did strive to guide, strangely the supposetly second attribute of the Bondsmith, others into what he believes are better ways. His first oath mentions how he must unite and not divide. It can easily be related to the guiding attribute.
Our fourth test case is Renarin. He is not quite so obvious as we have never had his POV, but there are clues. He did show a curious spirit in WoK as he asked questions about fabrials. He did demonstrated he knew more things than he should: his knowledge of the Old Magic being the main example. It was also he who thought of how to prove the veracity of Dalinar’s vision. It is also not so hard to believe a young child prevented from learning how to fight may have found ways to entertained himself and these may have to do with seeking knowledge in a world unfavorable for such endeavor in men. His second attibute is “giving”, which can be related to his reluctance to speak-up, to share. He has obviously not progress enought and will most likely have to work on this one, but admitting he was a Radiant was a step in this direction.
Our fifth test case is Jasnah. Again, we do not have much to work on, I admit. However, we do know Jasnah is a known resercher, very wise in her collect of information and in her assessement of the workings of the world. Navani mentions at one point how her daughter often seemed to seek danger, which would indicate how Jasnah may progress through Radianhood by learning to be more careful.
Our last test case is Lift. We do not have much to work one and we know from Windle it was the Nightwatcher that asked him to bond her. The Nightwatcher chose her. Why? Certainly because of her refinement said to be one the main characteristics of the Edgedancers (according to Words of Radiance, the book Shallan reads, not the one Brandon wrote of course). I believe it was because it saw how much of a loving person she was. After all, she did came back and risk her live to safe Gawk, a boy she hardly knew and did not care much for to begin with. She did it because she was loving, because she felt, in the end, someone had to care. The healing attribute could be linked to the surge of progression as she will have to learn to become a healer, eventually.
I agree you could tear it all apart and claim these are not strong enough arguments, especially in the last three cases. However, I do feel the first/second attributes logic does apply to 5 of our Radiants. I have thus to find evidence it does not apply to the remaining 5.
It is based on this logic I assume any prospective Willshaper has to be resolute and any prospective Lightweaver has to be creative. Whereas I can admit Elhokar could be seen as resolute in his pursuit of imaginary assassins, I cannot see much evidence of a tendancy towards creativity.
These are the evidences I work with to route out potential Radiants and despite my obvious dislike of Elhokar, I have to admit I just cannot see him embracing any of the required attributes. I am, of course, willing to wait and see, as you say, and my perception may change overtime. I have been known to change my mind several times on many characters.
Another way to read my argumentation is to look at a scale: on one side you have the possibility he may be seeing cryptics with all the evidence brought forward, on the other side you have his entire persona which does not exhibit any of the prerequiste attributes. Which ones weights more? I guess this is up to interpretation. Since I do not think we have sufficient conclusive evidence he is indeed seeing sprens and that these are indeed here with the purpose of instoring a nahel bond, this item weights much less than the other. For me. I also happen to believe the evidence he may not have the proper personality or strenght of character to pull it of is stronger than the other. Thus my scale weights more on one side. And there is also the fact he is downright despicable, not Sadeas or Amaram despicable, but just very underserving. So far. I have never excluded the possibility he may improve.
I do know Brandon does not care who I think is worthy or not of becoming a Radiant and he sure does not read all these threads when trying to decide how to write his next book ;-) However, I, as a reader, do care, but I do trust Brandon will managed to make me enjoy reading about it.
Oh I can play the devil’s advocate as well, but I tend to be stubborn as a oak ;-) Character talk is my favorite, but dwindle on the Cosmere and you’ll lose me…
FIY: I realise my orthograph is at fault…. There are no spell correcter in here and being French, the spelling of many words is not intuitively obvious. So sorry if I come out as a spelling dummy at times.
Insert digression
MDNY @83
Sorry to pick nits, but be careful there. From chapter 3, comment 68:
And in the WoR chapter 44 epigraph we read:
Italics mine, and, yes, I’m totally taking that sentence fragment out of its context, but it seems to indicate that all Bondsmiths were indeed bonded to one spren pre-Recreance.
Finally, there is WoB somewhere out in cyberland to the effect that modern-day Bondsmiths are doing something similar to what Bondsmiths did regarding spren bonding back in the day. I don’t have a reference handy or remember the exact wording.
So, while I personally believe all Bondsmiths were bonded to Stormfather pre-Recreance, it is by no means canon or is it certain the situation is the same in modern-day Roshar.
End nitpick.
End digression.
Here are Elhokar’s actual words regarding what he sees (tWoK, hardcover, p826):
I, and most others, have so far assumed that Elhokar must be seeing cryptics. But perhaps we may be jumping to conclusions. As Wetlander just pointed out (I went back and re-read the chapter), Shallan never actually saw the symbolheads in the physical realm except through taking a Memory and sketching it out. The symbolhead creatures exist that way only in Shadesmar. Yet, Elhokar is apparently seeing their cognitive realm forms in the physical realm, through his mirror. My point is, we are assuming that the spren Elhokar is seeing are cryptics, and they may very be. But what if they are not actual cryptics, but related or inverse types, whose appearance in the physical realm is as symbolheads, and in the cognitive realm as geonetric-pattern blobs? Perhaps that is the kind of spren that bond Willshapers?
Marxal @116: I’m not so sure about family ties being altogether irrelevant.
In Mistborn we have clear indication about a genetic factor and even in Warbreaker, where seemingly everybody can collect breaths the royal lock is genetic …
Kaladin disproves that only Lighteyes can become Radiants but that doesn’t mean genetics (and thereby family ties) are irrelevant. Hoid did state that there is a “good” reason for the Brighteyes in the leading class… It isn’t prove, but indication that some genetics might be in play on Roshar as well.
So: being related to a Kholin might increase the possibility that your genetics might predispose you so that, if worthy (by evaluation of the spren), you might be able to attract and bond a spren
(a lot of if and might in that sentence above, I know).
Maxal @120:
Our third test case is Dalinar. It is only has he forsook his old ways that he attracted the stormfather.
Well, there was an interesting fact that apparently Dalinar’s wounds have been healing unnaturally well for some time. Possibly even back during him being in his full “Blackthorn” persona.
And also, consider Gavilar. We only have circumstantial evidence, of course, but it looks as if he was in his full-on conqueror warlord mode when he started receiving visions, and it were the visions that triggered changes in his behavior, not vice-versa. And as we now know, the Stormfather needs to establish an initial bond to send somebody a vision.
And the whole “Sons of Honor” deal, well it is up to debate as to how Radiant-like it is.
Our last test case is Lift. We do not have much to work one and we know from Windle it was the Nightwatcher that asked him to bond her.
Lift is also an interesting case, because Wyndle herself didn’t see her potential and wouldn’t have bonded her without being forced. According to what she told Darkness/Nalan, she also had gone through a period when she didn’t care about anyone/anything. And, refinment? Yea.
So, there are examples of not-obviously fitting candidates being chosen, for one reason or another.
One could argue, for instance, that character-wise Taravangian may have been a better target for the Bondsmith spren-bond than Gavilar, back then, before his visit to the Nightwatcher. But them’s the breaks.
Wetlandernw – thanks for checking Shallan – Cryptics sequence in WoK. Very creepy and confirms that Shalan never saw them directly. OTOH, Elokhar is never seeing the “symbolheads” directly either, only in mirrors, right? Perhaps the mirrors are fulfilling the same function for him as Drawings did for Shallan?
Also, maybe there is something else about Elokhar that makes him interesting to the Cryptics. Maybe they are only studying him, without any intention of bonding him and Elokhar just has some kind of (genetic?) sensitivity that allows him to notice them. Could it be that he is harboring some deep, horrific secrets?
On the subject of Heralds and Radiants, I see that there is speculation that Szeth may become a Radiant in the form of a Skybreaker under the Herald, Nale. While I am sceptical of a Radiant role for Szeth, or the ability for Nale to create such a role, I see the need for more information. What was Szeth like before he confronted the Shin elders and was banished and condemned to foreign slavery? What made Nale become an anti-Radiant vigilante? No doubt, answers will be forthcoming in the next Stormlight book. However, it’s fun to speculate. I have just finished Warbreaker with the extensive Sanderson annotations. It has been established, I believe, that Warbreaker (Vasher’s original Returned name) is Zahel, Dalinar’s sword master, in this series. He certainly has the same grumpy and irrascible character. Is it possible, then, that the other surviving member of the 5 ancient scholars, Yesteel, is Nale in this planet. While we have no information on events in the planet Nalthis (Nale from Nalthis?) subsequent to the Warbreaker story, somehow Vasher’s ‘awakened’ sword, Nightblood, wound up in Nale’s hands. We know from the end of Warbreaker that Vasher intended to seek out and oppose Yesteel. Perhaps he lost Nightblood in the process. I recall that the timeframe of the events in the various Sanderson books was discussed or linked in an earlier reread or review. Is my conjecture consistent with some Sanderson sactioned timeframe?
@125: Brandon answered some questions about Nightblood in his Goodreads “Ask the Author” session. I am not sure the exact question, but he did say the story of how Nightblood got into Nale’s hands was a good one. Yet he’s not sure where to tell it because it falls between books.
Sorry, you will have to look up the exact quote. But warning there are spoilers for his story in the Shadows Below book.
http://www.goodreads.com/author/38550.Brandon_Sanderson/questions
All the Heralds (except obviously Taln) were opposed to things they thought might bring the Desolation back. Nalan was just a bit more proactive in killing proto-Radiants. At least, that is the way I read it.
And regarding Elhokar and Cryptics, I assumed that him seeing them in a mirror, was like Shallan seeing them in her drawings.
But it is just as likely he is a a completely separate order.
I suspect we will go far astray if we insist every order requires honor.
Regarding Zahel/Vasher… where is he originally from? I did not have the impression when reading Warbreaker that that is where he was from. He was too much of an outsider and an anomaly. It seems to have come from somewhere more educated and scholarly.
Thanks Braid_Tug @126, I eventually found Sanderson’s relevant quote. He stated that Vasher’s ‘loss’ of Nightblood occurred between the setting of Warbreaker and the events in Roshar. So far, so good.
Zen@127 Remember that Vasher is (at the time of Warbreaker) at least 300 years Returned, and from a time and place where he and some fellow Returned were Scholars of Awakening. Society can change a lot in 300 years :)
@127 Vasher was a Returned. We know nothing of his life before he died, and neither does he, according to what he told Vivenna in Warbreaker, but he was Warbreaker the Peaceful (his Returned name), which implies that he was likely a native of Nalthis before he died (though that is not a given). As for his being an outsider, I think that’s just his personality, and partly explained by his past warmongering and subsequent change of heart, which resulted in the death of Shashara. He also naturally uses phrases from Nalthis while on Roshar (e.g. color references), which seems to imply that’s his native land, though I grant you it could just be due to his many years there. But I think the fact that he was a Returned would strongly suggest that Nalthis was his native planet. At the very least, it was where he was reborn (or “Returned”).
Good points
129. rhandric
130. MDNY
It may have been simply been a remarkable group of scholars that Vasher/Zahel was part of. In any case, it is very different from current Nalthis society and scholastic environment.
@travil 123
I think my words were badly chosen. In this post, I was complaining about the argument, often brought out, that no additional Kohlin should be made Radiant because we already have three… This argument, I feel is irrevelant as it is not because we have three Kohlin Radiants, we can’t get any other. What matters is how this specific person is behaving.
I agree with you about genetic. I would also add education must play a role. Look at how Dalinar tries to raise his sons. He tries to make them, especially Adolin, into men he’d be proud of. It is not always easy, but I do believe his wise instructions will make a lasting effect. It could very well be the one thing that’ll prevent Adolin from going completely wacko.
@Isilel 124
You make a good point about Dalinar anormal healing abilities. I have thought the same thing as well. In fact, I had wonder if the injuries to his shoulder happen before or after the Oath Pact. If it were after, then the theory hold. However, there is strong chance they occured before as it looks quite hard to actually injured a shardbearer… Adolin was hit on numerous times by four shardbearers and came out of the fight unscatted. I must therefore conclude Dalinar’s worst injuries must have occured before he got his shardplate. We don’t know when that happened exactly. It is hard to draw a real conclusion.
On the other hand, we have clues indicating Galivar was originally chosen by the Stormfather, but he had to settle for Dalinar as his first choice was killed. Galivar, if we remember correctly, started to follow the Way of Kings a few years before his death. It could be it is then he bonding process started and not while he was in conquerer mode. It could he joined the Sons of Honor, learned about the book and started behaving appropriately.
I would find it doubtfull Dalinar have used stormlight prior to Galivar’s death…. Perhaps it is he actually healed an old injury who did not impaired him before, but would have become an indrance as he is getting older…. Much like my father had to stop playing badmington due to an elbow injury who was under control, but suddendly got worst as he aged….?
About Lift… Well wasn’t Windle’s first choice a gardener? It could be Edgedancer’s sprens are frivolous and tend to chose on apparences instead of worth, which would explain why the Nightwatcher took a hand in it. Perhaps it always were this way…
I agree Mr T may have been a better choice than Galivar at the time. I guess we will have to RAFO this one.
You make good points about the dissemblances between what Shallan is seeing and what Elhokar claims he is seeing. This helps convincing me he is indeed not seeing cryptics. We have to keep in mind there are many kind of sprens and not all of them are related to the Radiants. The possibility Elhokar is seeing something entirely different is real, especially considering he does not fit the profile for any given order.
I wouldn’t call a Cultivation-spren’s choice of a gardener frivolous. It simply loves cultivating.
@133: By frivolous I meant chosing someone for his profession, his status and/or his apparence as opposed to his persona. I was under the impression Windle was more interested in the box than what was inside. The Nightwatcher corrected him by giving him an unfitting box full of promises.
STBLST @125
Re: Yesteel is Nale on Roshar.
Now that’s an interesting conjecture. There isn’t any solid evidence, but it feels right and BWS has RAFO’d the question of whether or not the Heralds are native to Roshar (several times).
The Nightwatcher gave Lift the ability to turn food into Stormlight, but it was the other spren of Wyndle’s kind who chose Lift for bonding, not the Nightwatcher.
@136 birgit- True, it was Wyndle’s spren council that chose Lift, but they did so because their “Mother” had blessed her with her ability to generate stormlight (we still don’t know what the curse was- having to be a Radiant? Seems more like a curse for Wyndle…) Given that the Nightwatcher seems pretty powerful, and is associated with Cultivation (who sees the future better than Honor, as per Dalinar’s vision) I would conjecture that Cultivation/Nightwatcher gave Lift her Stormlight abilities because she was a future Radiant, and Cultivation may have ultimately been behind the decision.
Regarding the blessing and curse, I suspect that they are mentally fashioning things, and simply need material to work with. It might be the mental material that gives your left hand feeling, or that helps you tell up from down, or helps you remember your wife’s name. In other words, the curse is not a curse per se, but rather where the material for the blessing came from.
I find Lift to be one of the most intriguing characters introduced to us thus far in the series, and look forward to her back story. She has had to fend for herself in a basically uncaring world since childhood. Despite that, she is a caring adolescent who is willing to jeopardize her life to possibly save someone she hardly knows. Her word byplay with Wyndle is very amusing as she insists on calling him Voidbringer and casually dismisses his attempts at instruction. Her unique ability to convert food into a surgebinding material may have been granted to her by the Nightwatcher. If so, then her constant feeling of hunger could have been the associated curse that is believed to accompany Nightwatcher grants. It appears to be the motivation for her favorite expletive, “starving”. It is also understandable in that she has no access to food other than what she is able to snatch. That limited intake is used partly to energize her anti-friction and regrowth powers as well as feeding her growing body. To use her favorite teenagey expression, she is ‘awesome’.
@139: I too really enjoy Lift. Guessing she will have better access to food in the future, since she saved the new king and such.
But how will this affect her overall growth? Teenagers need a ton of fuel to just function and grow. She’ll need twice that to fuel her awesomeness.
So, will she still look 12 at 20? Let’s hope malnutrition is not in her future.
And every time she says “awesome”, I’m reminded of Brandon’s Magic Systems panel at JordanCon. His “Rule of Awesome” and how it can override the other rules.
Such as, he wanted to play with power suites. Then he built the world of Shardplate and one that the armor would make in-world since
Maxal @132:
Actually, I do think that Elokhar’s “symbolheads” are Cryptics. IMHO, him seeing them in mirrors is sufficiently similar to Shallan only seeing them in her Memory drawings, particularly since Shallan may have been additionally prevented from seeing them by her blocks.
However, I suggest that they may be following and studying Elokhar for other reasons than intention to eventually bond him. Maybe he is full of particularly horrific/tasty secrets, for instance. With the dark hints we got about Gavilar, it is quite possible.
Maxal @@@@@ 132 – I think you mean the unification of Alethkar, not the Oathpact. The Oathpact was what the Heralds were bound to, as seen in the prelude from WoK, and aside from that first scene, everything we’ve seen in the next two books has taken place afterwards.
Regarding Elhokar: I would certainly agree that he has come across as whiny and paranoid in the first two books. However, I have to agree with Wetlander’s general thoughts: we simply don’t know enough about his personal backstory/motivation (due to never having actually been inside his head), or what the different types of spren are looking at when considering people to bond, to know whether or not they would have been interested in bonding with him as early as we hear him talking about the mysterious creatures watching him.
I know that my own personal respect for the man went up drastically over the course of WoR. First, he actually went to Kaladin and asked how to be a better leader. Then, when Kaladin saved him and he asked why, I really appreciated Kaladin’s response: essentially, that while he’d been doing an awful job as king, he’d been doing the best he could in a tough situation for a very long time. I’d like to think that creatures that live primarily in the Cognitive Realm would be able to analyze a person’s thoughts and intentions, even if their actions didn’t always turn out for the best.
An alternative theory, if you still aren’t convinced that the Cryptics could have been considering Elhokar: Cryptics are described as being the “lighteyes of the Cognitive Realm”. As such, they could have simply been investigating Elhokar since he was likewise a ruler in the Physical Realm. Regardless of how effective he’s been, he is in a position as leader of one of the most powerful kingdoms of Roshar. If I were in their position, and I was considering sending some of my people over into the Physical Realm, getting to know a man in such a position would certainly be part of my “scouting” process.
@142
Vengeance Pact. I meant Vengeance Pact. Sorry.
I like your theory the symbol heads are there to study Elhokar on a pure academic level. It makes more sense to be than thinking they want to bond him. However, I think we must not dismiss the possibility they are evil and looking forward to gain control (or seriously impair) the weak king of a strong nation.
One thing that Shallan and Elokhar, have in common, and I realize that I am late to the party in pointing this out, they were both broken by lies and they were both saved by lies