Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Carl explored the relationship of “friends” old and new and the unexpected appearance of mink on Roshar. This week, we examine the aftermath of the conflux of caravans, converts and crooks.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 21: Ashes
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: The Frostlands
Symbology: Pattern, Talenel, Nalan
IN WHICH Bluth is mourned; bandits are executed; a significant picture is retrieved; Shallan strikes a bargain with the caravan owner, and the caravans are conjoined under her authority; Vathah is trouble; Pattern is resourceful; Tvlakv is skeptical, suspicious, bitter, and resigned; Tvlakv’s slaves are appropriated by Shallan; a prayer of thanks is offered and burned; and former deserters stand the taller for it.
Quote of the Week:
The former deserters gathered in front of the flames and looked at the prayer. Then they turned and looked outward, seeing—as if for the first time—the two dozen people standing there and watching. Silent in the night. Some had tears on their cheeks; some held the hands of children….
…The deserters didn’t seem to know how to react, surrounded by that constellation of thankful eyes and tearful appreciation. Finally, they burned the prayer. Shallan bowed her head as they did, as did most of those watching.
She left them standing taller, watching the ashes of that prayer rise toward the Almighty.
After all the discussion in last week’s comments about the possible transformative powers of Lightweaving, I have to say that the transformation, whatever it was, is only now complete. (Or as complete as it can be without new habits and attitudes being established, anyway.) Even after these men made a choice to be better than they were, it’s not until they see the difference reflected in the eyes of others that they truly see themselves as being better.
Commentary: “Ashes.” It’s a fitting title. This chapter is full of death, burning, and bitter confrontation.
As Vathah goes around grimly executing the remaining bandits, Shallan closes Bluth’s eyes, not looking at the carnage of his body. In his pocket she finds the answer to the question left hanging last week: who had removed a page from her sketchbook? Bluth had taken “her picture of him. The one that depicted him not as he was, but as she imagined he might once have been. A soldier in an army, in a crisp uniform. Eyes forward, rather than looking down all the time. A hero.” She seems grieved for and proud of him, but there’s no real indication that she feels in any way responsible for the change in him; I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. Still:
“I was wrong,” she whispered. “You were a fine way to restart my collection, Bluth. Fight well for the Almighty in your sleep, bold one.”
Even now, this brings tears to my eyes. And even now, I’m amazed that an author could write a character who is moderately despicable and essentially unlikeable—someone to whom my most positive emotional response had been on the underside of indifference—and then make me cry when he dies.
Shallan moves on to find the caravan owner, while around her the survivors pull corpses to the fires for burning—more ashes—and sort through the contents of overturned wagons. In spite of being tired, sore, disheveled, grungy, and totally lacking in Illusion, she manages to project enough confidence that she convinces Macob and Tyn that she is, and should be, in charge of the whole shebang, that her need of them is only for the comforts they can provide on the journey. Inwardly, she acknowledges the fact that she needs their presence to keep her new “soldiers” mindful of civilization and heroism.
Vathah’s behavior certainly bears out that necessity as he walks with her past the burning dead: he’s disillusioned (heh) with what he sees of her now; he doesn’t believe there’s any fundamental change in himself or his men; he certainly doesn’t believe she can keep her promise to have them all pardoned and their debts forgiven. Fortunately, he’s also a bit wigged out by disembodied voices (nice one, Pattern!), but he’s clearly going to be trouble.
(Jumping forward to what we know by the end of the book… I spent the entire book, from this point forward, just waiting for him to really be trouble, but it never happened. Now I’m trying to figure out whether it just hasn’t happened yet, or whether he’s truly changed his mind and is loyal to Shallan. What’s your guess?)
The next confrontation is with Tvlakv, who has concocted this marvy conspiracy theory in which Bluth and Shallan were in cahoots with the deserters, but it has a rather sieve-like quality which even he sees when he tries to accuse Shallan of it. While he’s still trying to figure out whether it really leaks as bad as all that, she moves on to commandeer his slaves. Whether it would have worked had he not been already off balance is unknown; as it is, she totally steamrolls him. First she tells him he’d better hope the Almighty is a farce, because otherwise he’s got a special place in Damnation waiting for him. Then she claims the slaves, and over his first word of objection,
“I saved your life, you oily little man,” Shallan said. “You will give me these slaves in payment. Dues in recompense for my soldiers protecting you and your worthless life.”
He claims it’s robbery; she tells him it’s justice. If you don’t like it, go cry to the king about it. Hey, that should work. Then she proceeds to tell these five men, these slaves, that if they want to run they won’t be pursued—but if they stay, they can serve her and work toward their freedom. The deal is that they get six firemarks a week if they agree to put five of them toward their slave debt; one, if not. So the slaves go from being treated like animals to serving a light-eyed lady; no worries about getting caught for a runaway; good pay for a job that is far from onerous; and the probability of paying off their slave debt and becoming free men again. Shallan gets servants who are completely loyal, and who have a vested interest in keeping her happy. Works out pretty well for everyone, except maybe Tvlakv—but I no longer have much sympathy for him. (It’s odd. At the end of TWoK, even though he treated Kaladin badly, I had this sort of sneaking soft spot for him, but it’s all, all gone now. Not sure quite how that happened—it’s just the opposite of what happened with Bluth. Maybe because Bluth died trying to be better, while Tvlakv did everything greasy thing he could to avoid being involved in any way. Maybe because of the contrast.)
Anyway, after surprising Tvlakv by actually paying him for a wagon, she walks away… right past the fire where the last body is being thrown into the flames. Then comes the scene from the QOTW: the caravan folk hold out a sheet of paper to a former deserter (who just happens to be Gaz). It is a prayer—not of mourning for their losses, but of thanks for the “soldiers” who came to their rescue. Finally, finally, finally. They’d wanted a second chance, but in the battle and the aftermath they were too busy to think about it much. Now they look around to find men, women, children—families who are alive because a bunch of deserters dared to be better than they thought they were, and it has a profound impact. Whether the initial impetus was a matter of charisma or Lightweaving, this has nothing to do with either magic or impulsive decisions to acquit themselves like men. This is a matter of seeing gratitude right up close and personal, face to face with people who see them as heroes. This, I believe, is the point where permanent change takes root; by burning the prayer to the Almighty, they accept that these people are thankful both to and for them, and it can’t help but reshape their view of themselves. They stand taller, as they watch the ashes of the prayer rise to the Almighty.
But I still wonder about Vathah.
Heraldic Symbolism: For once, the Heralds seem fairly obvious. Talenel is the Herald of soldiers, the one whose ideological role is Soldier. His Heraldic attributes are dependable/resourceful. Essentially, he’s the Herald associated with everything Shallan induced these former deserters to become. Nalan is, of course, the Judge, the Herald of justice, which may be reflective of Shallan’s claim of “justice” when she appropriates Tvlakv’s slaves. However, the Soulcasting property associated with his corresponding gemstone is… wait for it… smoke. Ashes, again.
(At least no one said, “Blood and bloody ashes!” did they? That would have been singularly apt, and very, very wrong. Heh.)
Well, that’s all for now, folks. Next week, Carl will take us back to the warcamps on this self-same night, as Kaladin stands guard duty during the up-coming highstorm. After that, we’ll be taking a holiday break so as to not be attempting to post rereads on Christmas and New Year’s Day, and I’ll return with a new chapter on January 8. Given that Firefight comes out on January 6, we may be borrowing the Chapter 22 thread to collect questions to ask Brandon on his tour, so keep that in mind as well. We can hash out wording and priority when the tour gets announced, right?
Merry Christmas, everyone! Stay safe in all your holiday celebrations, and give someone an extra hug just because you’re both alive.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?
Thanks Alice. I think that part of the reason that Bluth’s death impacts us is that he was never depicted as evil. Neither was Tvlakv, but Bluth was even more ambiguous than his boss, and seemed to treat both Kaladin and Shallan better. He was a man who (like the deserters) was hoping to be better than he was, but whatever the circumstanecs were, he found himself doing a despicable job and being a lesser man than he had hoped to be. Like the deserters, he was looking for a chance to be better, but never found it until Shallan forced his hand.
Tvlakv, on the other hand, seems to continue his refusal to be better. Like you, Alice, I had hopes for him from early on in WOK, but he seems to be one of the more stagnant characters we’ve encountered in the series, a man who refuses to adapt or change.
And then there’s Gaz, who I always thought would prove to be better than Kal’s twisted depressed mind made him out to be, but we’re not really at the point to discuss him yet.
I was also suspecious of Vathah and just waiting for the other shoe to drop and him to attack or betray Shallan in some way, but by the end of WOR he seems to be pretty firmly on her side, and in fact one of her more reliable soldiers. He fulfills the same role for Shallan that Moash did for Kaladin (resentful and distrustful at the beginning and only following because he has no other choice but not blindly obedient, and later becoming one of the most stalwart and effective allies), but unlike Moash he seems to become a true supporter at the end, without a conflicting agenda (though we still don’t know much about him or why he deserted).
Not much to add about the Heralds, seems pretty straightforward.
Happy holidays!
“she manages to project enough confidence that she convinces Macob and Tyn that she is, and should be, in charge”
Well, the caravan leader had just witnessed, that the deserters acted by her “order” – her claim to be in charge of them is pretty convincing. And Macob just lost most of his guards.
IMO He feels more threatend by the deserters, than convinced by Shallan, when he agrees to join her instead of the other way around. (Though of course, she con(-vinces) him to be in charge of them, which she is still less than sure of).
Re Vathah: in my re-read two weeks back, I was quite surprised, that Vathah didn’t betray her and get killed in the night Tyn died, as I previously seemed to remeber it.
Now correctly recalling it, I think that the night she kills Tyn, is when she finally earns his loyalty. He must think her to be a Shardbearer, clearly more than bravado.
So I now believe his transformation into a loyal subject, and expect him to stay that way. You don’t cross a Shardbearer, and you certainly don’t cross a Knight Radiant, and by the end of WoR he knows she’s even more than a mere Shardbearer.
Shallan’s actions in this chapter (specifically her conversation with Tvlakv) make me wonder what type of person she would have been if her mother had not tried to kill her and she lived a relatively normal life for a similar situated lighteyes. There is an inner strenght in her that was probably buried as part of Shallan’s coping mechanism.
Jasnah is correct in that power is nothing more than the appearance of power. However, in order for others to accept you in a role of authority, there has to be an underlying aspect of your character that shows you are capable. I believe that if somebody where to try to act in the role as leader, but he/or she does not have a certain alpha like quality (or at least capable of having an alpha like quality when the need arises), then it does not matter of that person projects him/herself. He/she will never truly be a leader.
This chapter alone shows that Shallan has it. Maybe it is just societal training: a Lighteyes is taught to lead from an early age. For those who read WoT, how Elayne was taught how to act as a queen by her mother (including the voice of command). Thus when she needed to act in charge (see LOC when being scolded by the Aes Sedai in Ebu Dar), she took charge. However, I think it is more than just training.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Blood and Bloody Ashes Nynaeve! :) Merry Christmas!
@1 MDNY. your characterization of Kaladin’s judgment of Gaz is unjustified. While he spent his first weeks as a bridgeman under Gaz being depressed, that was only natural. Being sent repeatedly on physically trying and suicidal missions does that to a person. He did snap out of his early depression, but never changed his attitude towards Gaz whom he saw as a heartless bully. He only came to a modus vivendi with him by physical intimidation and offering a modest bribe. In any case, his disdain for Gaz was not the result of a ‘twisted’ mind, but of an accurate evaluation of Gaz as he was then. Shallan, however, had the ability to induce Gaz to act more like the image that she had made for him. I expect that next Stormlight book will have Gaz apologizing to Kaladin and his Bridge 4 crew for his treatment of them, and will be forgiven. I agree with Alice that the final scene of the chapter is moving and heartwarming. Illusions will only go so far, as the later scene in this chapter with Vathah indicates. It takes reinforcement and meaningful encounters to solidify a new way of life.
@5 STBLST- I didn’t want to write that Kaladin was twisted, but I let it stand because by that time Kal’s mind really was “twisted” in certain ways. It seemed obvious, even from Kal’s early POV, that Gaz wasn’t an inherently cruel man. He was broken. Kaladin may have good reason to mistrust lighteyes and those who work for them, but I still felt that his inherent disdain for Gaz was misplaced, and I was rooting for Gaz’s good side to emerge. I’m not sure if it could ever have done so while he and Kal were both with the Bridge Crews. but even later when Kaladin meets Gaz again he’s still being dominated by his bitterness that controlled him during his slavery.
Sorry, I’m just not a big Kaladin fan, still. I should be, and want to be, because I usually like healers in these types of story, but he’s too brooding for my taste, and too inflexible (the same mindset emerges when he meets Shallan, and it takes a journey through the chasms together to change his mind about her).
I don’t think Kaladin actually though Gaz was a terrible person, or even had heaping distain for him as an individual, just saw him as a bully whom he could pretty easily bully right back. He had quite understandable disdain for Gaz’s position over him and the entire social structure that put him there, but Gaz as a person I think he just thought of as far as how the man could be manipulated into being as little of a problem for Kaladin as possible. He doesn’t really get to afford Gaz the person much consideration aside from rightly noticing he is broken and thus exploitable. Shallan rightly notices his human desire to also want to be more–it’s an understatement to say that she’s in a far better position to notice and bring his better traits out. Kaladin…really just had to see Gaz as a tool filling a role in system that was keeping him and those he protected down. He had no other choice in the hand he was dealing with, and at that point in the story, neither did we, because we (at least I) were firmly on Team Kaladin.
Re: Tvlakv, (how do you SAY that anyway?), Alice you’re not the only one who at first found a strange fondness for the man. In the first book Kaladin himself commented that he found Tvlakv to be a likeable bastard and those are the worst because then you feel kinda bad when you kill them.
@5. I don’t see Gaz apologizing any time soon. But I don’t see him as positive as he portrays himself later in this book. Might be because of what I say below. And I have real trouble when I see him happy and chuckling later on – it doesn’t fit the image I have of him and his paranoia from WoK, but we’ll get to that, eventually, in 2015.
@6 Kaladin is still my favourite character, up to the point that his feelings cloud my own judgement sometimes :)
Alice, I think Vathah experienced a kind of conversion when he saw Shallan with a shardblade after she killed Tyn. I remember he said something like “you didn’t need us, you could have taken care of the bandits by yourself”. From that point on, I believe his attitude towards her changed, and when she did indeed get them all pardons as she had promised, he became an ardent believer. I’ll be shocked, shocked, if he betrays her in future.
I just finished digesting the back end–post-Sunday comments–of the last installment (and that took a while, yeah). Thought-provoking stuff there, which I won’t belabor because we’ve moved on. Mostly, anyway. I am trying to remember everything I read in The Liar about Lightweaving abilities, although that work may not be the final say on the subject.
It will be interesting to see if Gaz apologizes to Kal (and the rest of the bridge boys, for that matter).
I actually never even considered that Shallan would feel responsible for Bulth’s change. I don’t think that she is seeing herself being the active force that changing people. She’s providing a frame for people, which changes how they see themselves. She isn’t changing who the person fundamentally is but how they are viewed.
I don’t have a problem with her not feeling guilt over this because it’s something that the person can choose to accept or not. She can say that they are honorable men until she’s blue in the face, but it wouldn’t mean much if the men themselves didn’t choose to accept that as a truth. I think Vathah is a good case study for this.
He’s in charge because everyone else follows him. I feel like the bandits just kind of fell in his leadership. I don’t think he was elected or given a majority vote of confidence. They followed him because he had the same goals and probably half a plan. When the groups goals changed from “not getting caught as bandits and avoid hanging at all cost” to “being able to live an honorable life” (as provided by Shallan’s opportunity); Vathah went with the group because these are the people that he knew.
It might be giving him too much credit to say that he felt responsible for these men but I think that did feel like they were his men at least. I think that if the opportunity had come up for him to pull his men away from Shallan before she revealed her Shardblade, she would have been in trouble. Vathah didn’t have the trust in her that she had the power to protect a band of deserters from the King’s justice. He’s not hopeful for that and in all likelihood he probably had plans to get the fuck out of dodge before they got to the warcamps.
And then Tyn happened. Tyn was probably the biggest thing in securing Vathah’s loyalty. Well the killing of her did, in any case. It’s essentially proof that Shallan can keep her word. For all the talk that power is an illusion, that illusion needs to back up by something real every once in a while or it’s just not going stick. Shallan showing her Shardblade (aside: that would fun to say five times fast) was that proof that she can keep her word or at least that she has the real power to actually keep her word. Shardbearers are not to be messed around with. It’s ingrained into the cultural fabric of Roshar.
And everything that Shallan does after that just cements Vathah as one of her men. I’m pretty convinced that he, Gaz and the rest of the ex-bandits are going to be loyal and stay loyal to her. These were all men who signed up for the army expecting to be loyal serving men to their High Lord and they were let down by what they actually had to go through on the Shattered Plains. They weren’t proud of who they had become but they are proud of what they are becoming as Shallan’s personal guard. That can be very powerful.
Vathah wasn’t someone who would convinced by a picture or words, he needed actual proof that she was someone to be listened to first. Gaz and Bulth were people who just needed the slight push to see themselves as what Shallan said they were. In any case the person himself is more responsible for any change, or lack of change, than Shallan is. She just opens the door for that change. They don’t have walk through.
Gaz wanted to believe that there is a way out of his bad situation and took a chance when it was offered without wanting to think about whether it was real. Vathah is more sceptical. He only accepts that the chance might be real when he sees proof that Shallan is actually competent and her promises are not just empty words. Like Tyn, he sees through Shallan’s act and only becomes hers when he comes to believe that it wasn’t just an act after all.
I am also convinced Vathah is loyal to Shallan. Lightweavers don’t have Squires do they? If they do, I think it would be cool if Vathah could be one for Shallan.
Oy. Late to my own party… *sigh*
See, here’s why I love doing rereads together. It hadn’t actually occurred to me when I wrote this that the Shardblade moment is when Vathah goes from disillusioned troublemaker to loyal follower, but it makes a lot of sense. There are one or two more instances where Shallan & Pattern talk about Vathah as “trouble,” and I remember thinking at the end of the book that the trouble had never materialized. After reading travyl’s comment @2, though, I started digging a little bit. Not only does he overtly recognize (however mistakenly) that with a Shardblade, she didn’t need any of them to fight off the bandits, the following day he says, “I think I’ve been right convinced, Brightness.” While that was in response to a direct question about his opinion of her ability to keep her promise, the context makes it fairly clear that his entire attitude toward her changed that night. For some reason, I hadn’t connected the dots; all the instances of “that one will be trouble!” come before that night, and afterwards he’s the leader of her men rather than his.
Gaz will definitely provide some interesting developments as we go along; I’m going to have to work that through in my own mind. I’ll have to do some more rereading in TWoK, too, and figure out how much of my perception of him was colored by Kaladin’s perspective. As MDNY says @1, Kaladin’s outlook on life had been severely warped by the time Gaz came along, and the two did not hit it off. Our minimal insights into Gaz’s mind indicate that his outlook had been a bit warped by circumstances, too, so we can perhaps have a more charitable view than Kaladin. More research required!
leiftinspace @@.-@ – Thanks. :P
Ways @10 – I need to reread Liar too… I didn’t even remember that it had Lightweaving in it until you mentioned it. *sigh* My memory is starting to let me down. This is very disconcerting.
kei_rin @11 – I worded that badly; I didn’t mean to imply that she should feel guilty for having changed Bluth in a way that got him dead. I was just musing (partly because of the previous discussions) about how/whether Lightweaving, and in particular Shallan’s recent activities, actually change people; it’s quite clear that the concept hasn’t even occurred to Shallan. It’s perfectly reasonable that she doesn’t feel responsible per se; she has only one drawing and Pattern’s comment about transformation to lead her in that direction, and it’s really not a direction to which she’s inclined. From my perspective, there’s absolutely no doubt that to some degree, she is responsible for Bluth’s change, whether by a magical act or simply by giving him ideas. Even that doesn’t mean she should feel guilty; as she tells Vathah about his dead men, “They died doing a very good work, and the families of those who lived will bless them for their sacrifice.” Which, from one angle (a very Vorin angle, in this case), is a far better thing than to continue to live and drive a wagon full of slaves….
I had some problems when I read this chapter and more after reflecting on last weeks comments. We should not forget that light weaving didn’t MAKE them better THEY did that. The magic simply showed them that they could be, they still had to make the choice to be. They still have the agency here and are still responsible for the choice to be better. We forget that at our peril.
Despite MDNY’s understanding and Wetlandernw’s waffling, I continue to maintain that Kaladin’s attitude towards Gaz was based on a realistic assessment of the man. However, he could only see what was presented to him, rather than the entire picture. Gaz never bothered to explain his treatment of Kaladin when he first joined the Bridge 4. It was surely cruel to force him into carrying a heavy bridge barefoot and without a padded vest – not to mention placing him in the worst position during the transportation phase and the most exposed position during the bridge assault. He could have explained that he was ordered to provide ‘special treatment’ to a Shash bearing slave. Instead, he takes umbrage that Kaladin does not appear to be beaten down like the other bridgemen. He always refers to him mockingly as ‘your lordship’ or ‘lordling’. Kaladin is not someone whom Gaz can see as an inferior, and that disturbs him. Shallan, on the other hand, appears later to Gaz and the group of deserters seemingly in the form of a powerful lighteyed lady – despite her pitiful real appearance. When she promises to wipe away their past if they will save the attacked caravan, Gaz is the first to respond. He believes Shallan’s promises and wishes to sieze the chance for a better life by following her. She has created a vision of what Gaz and (earlier) Bluth, could be. Kaladin didn’t have such power or opportunity. He did, however, create that vision and role for his men in Bridge 4 by his example, willingness to sacrafice, and very hard work.
On the other hand, he finds some rapport with Tvlakv despite the circumstance of his being a slave to him. Tvlakv is clearly in a superior position but takes the trouble to explain himself to Kaladin. Shallan, on the other hand, is seen by Tvlakv as a higher status individual despite her bedraggled appearance. She has no opportunity to see his more nuanced stance towards social inferiors, and never develops a rapport with him.
Kaladin’s distorted view of some people is basically confined to Lighteyes. He is a good judge of other people. He later learns to appreciate and admire Shallan once he is forced into close contact with her when they fall into a chasm. This leads to a realization that some Lighteyes like Dalinar, Adolin, and, of course, Shallan are good and admirable people, and that his earlier experiences with Roshone, Amaram, Sadeas, and the king had unduly influenced how he perceived Lighteyes.
zaldar @15 – “We should not forget that light weaving didn’t MAKE them better THEY did that.”
We… actually don’t know that. It is indeed perilous to make assumptions.
We don’t yet know the lengths to which Lightweaving can be taken. It may indeed be that they still had the completely free choice; in fact, I think it’s highly probable. But it’s also entirely possible that Lightweaving can affect a person to a degree that might make us very uncomfortable to contemplate.
I agree with @15 Zaldar and others, that the Lightweaving ability displayed at this point by Shallan is not coercive in nature. I have remarked previously that it is analagous to someone following a charismatic figure. In this case, the charisma is not inherent in Shallan, only a result of her surge-binding ability. The example that appears to be illustrate my contention is that of Vathah. He experiences Shallan’s Transforming surge, but only reluctantly accedes to her plea for coming to the aid of the attacked caravan. He does so only after nearly all of his ostensible followers have run off in response to Shallan. At that point, if he didn’t join, he would have lost control of them. Hence, he retained his individual freedom of choice despite Shallan’s vision and pleas.
@several re: the nature of Lightweaving – I freely admit that I hope your assumption is true. I much prefer the idea that Shallan is showing these men a possibility, and they are deciding for themselves to pursue that possibility rather than staying where/who they are. I even believe that it’s the most likely scenario. I just have to point out that it’s Sanderson’s book. His rules. His choice. His option to make Lightweaving something that we might find deeply disturbing. He’s dropped hints that could play out several different ways, and we should remain open to the possibilities.
I think it’s highly probable that, even if Lightweaving could be used coercively, that’s not what Shallan did. Then again, she doesn’t actually have a clue what she did, so if it’s possible to use it coercively, she may have done so without realization or intent. I don’t think it’s a strong possibility, but it is a non-zero possibility.
Guys, I’m not saying I believe she did anything unethical here (intentionally or not), or even that I believe Lightweaving is likely to be what we’d consider unethical. I just don’t like to see people insist that their way of seeing it is The Right Way when there’s no solid proof, the evidence can be interpreted several different ways, and the deciding factor is their own desire for it to be so.
And so I continue my long-standing position as devil’s advocate, arguing for possibilities I don’t even like, because I’m not the one telling the story. I refuse to accept as inarguable fact what are really assumptions about the author’s intent.
@Wetlandernw
I can see that that Lightweaving has that possiblity of being coervice– or in fact any of the magic being used in a “evil” manner. There has to be a reason why the Knight Orders were required to have oaths and be bound.
kei_rin @20 – Exactly. And there are hints that what lead to the Recreance was something that involved at least a perception of violating those oaths. I have to assume that it’s at least possible to use it “wrongly.”
STBLST @16:
Very well said about Gaz.
Just because he is portrayed better in WoR, he wasn’t a “reluctant jailer”, he was a bully in his own right towards Kaladin and Bridge 4. The “lordling” is a good example of that, but only the tip of the iceberg.
Hi again everyone! Sorry to have been absent so long. Real Life has been Real(ly) Annoying and Real(ly) Hard for quite awhile now. And while that will continue, I aim to be back here in the Storm Cellar on a regular basis from now.
I wish I’d ever found an alcohol I liked…is there a bartender down here? OH, and also, look – Chris is back, and here’s a Wall of Text! Haven’t you missed me?
Hello? Is this thing on?!?
*ahem*
Anyway…I’ve got a lot of catching up to do! I looked in on last week’s post Friday or Saturday, but apparently missed some controversy on Lightweaving and Transformation. Apologies if this is a rehash, I’ll go catch up after I post here. But…well, I admit I was startled months ago when I first heard that some fans thought Shallan might be magically influencing people’s decisions and personalities. I didn’t read it that way at all, and – fair warning – I’m biased, I really, really hate that idea! Jedi Mind Trick Shallan could be cool and all…but apart from the consent issues, I like it better if it’s part of Shallan’s personality and charisma (and skills learned from Jasnah and later Tyn) than if it’s part of her magic.
I say all that to identify my bias – and I’ll also throw in here that Wetlander’s quite right, and it’s certainly *possible* that I’m wrong, and that it is part of her magic. We don’t have nearly enough info about the Surges to be sure what a KR can do.
But I don’t believe it. Not simply because I don’t want to, but because Pattern in the last chapter identified what she was doing as being related to a different Surge – not Illumination/Lightweaving, but Transformation, Soulcasting. Shallan’s stormlight was powering her use of Illumination to Lightweave; it wasn’t powering Transformation to Soulcast. When we’re talking about the ‘transformative power of Lightweaving’ we’re conflating things that should be separate. (Hmmm…I did read some comments last week about how it might be that a KR has powers arising from the joining of two surges, so maybe personality changing could be a combo of Transformation+Illumination. I like the idea of each Order combining it’s two surges to come up with unique abiilities that no other Order of Radiants had. It’s just
an idea, though – no way to know yet if it’s true.)
I think the explanation is simpler. It’s not that she Lightwove them into changing. She didn’t magically Transform them, either – they weren’t Soulcast into anything. What we have to recall is that Stormlight – magic – isn’t the most important driving force in Soulcasting/Transformation. Magic alone isn’t enough to cause a change. Because, of course, “I am a stick.” Shallan *was* using magic on the stick; she has the power to Soulcast; she had Stormlight. But she couldn’t get the stick to change. Why? Because it didn’t want to. Her Stormlight-powered Transformation could’ve caused a change in the Physical world – but the stick refused in the Cognitive (and also in the Spiritual?). It was a stick, and nothing else.
The key to Soulcasting *isnt’t* in the Physical change, it’s in the Cognitive (again, possibly in the Cognitive + Spiritual) willingness to change. It’s in the ability to persuade – or cajole, or con, or command, or whatever (I imagine Jasnah usually commands, for example!). It’s that arena where Shallan failed with the stick, and it’s in that same arena where she succeeded with Bluth, Gaz, and the others. Not magic, but persuasion, the ability to be convincing. Of course, a receptive audience helped. Tvlakv, Tyn, and Vathah were instances of “I am a stick”-ness. They weren’t receptive to Shallan’s ideas, and refused to change.
All of that is to say that I don’t think Pattern was saying “hey, you used magic on them” but rather commenting “that’s the ability you need to use for Transforming stuff.” Luckily, Shallan wasn’t trying to get them to change on a Physical level…but she *did* recast their souls a bit…with their cooperation.
Huh. In WoK I thought “Soulcasting” meant “magically/spiritually transmuting elements.” But it only seems like that. What it really means is “getting something’s mind and soul to agree to be recast”.
When a human agrees to that, of course, the results can be quite striking and magical – without any Stormlight needed.
It does make me think again about the Order of Lightweavers, though – about the, um, cumulative effect of having access to two different Surges, Illumination and Transformation, and how they relate to and enhance each other. It is, as the book says, no coincidence that so many of the Order are artists, as is Shallan. Because Illumination – understanding, enlightenment, a new way of seeing, a new paradigm – illumination is certainly one of the primary goals of artists. And a new way of seeing can be a catalyst to transformation. It is perhaps the primary (only?) catalyst.
Cool stuff.
One other thing on this subject – I don’t quite agree with Alice’s lovely idea that their transformation is complete with the burning of the prayer at the end of the chapter. It’s a beautiful moment, and certainly an important one…it helps confirm that they made the right choice, and provides encouragement that the new life Shallan is dangling in front of them is a real possibility. They can start over, be heroes, have acceptatnce, etc. But the transformation still isn’t “complete” because…well, people being people, we’re always still in process. Um…not to get into professional/theological speak, but “repentance” means changing course – changing direction. These men have done that. But they have to keep walking in the new direction, and avoid the temptation to fall back into old patterns and behaviors. Shallan very wisely understands that – as Alice notes in her commentary, one of her priorities is to keep things moving, keep the men active in following her lead before they start having second thoughts. Hence, instead of collapsing into sleep as she’d very much like to do, she goes and uses her persuasive skills to transform the caravan and make it hers.
Sorry for the WoTexting!
That was quite a Wall o’Text, Chris, but very, very well said. I can find no fault with your logic.
Chris @23
Yep, this thing is on. Welcome back to this real world!
Burning the prayer may not have completed the transformation, but it surely was a mental milestone for those involved.
I’m inclined to agree with the case you have built.
Chris – Nice wall! It’s got some excellent points on it, too. :)
The fact that Shallan had to convince both the ship and the stick – i.e. had to have their consent – is a good point. That is at least an indication that she must have the cognitive (and possibly spiritual) consent of the “target” in order to transform it. What we don’t know is:
a) Is this only Shallan’s issue?
b) Is this a specifically Lightweaver issue?
c) Is this only for straight-up Soulcasting, or for all uses of Transformation for Lightweavers (or just Shallan)?
Of course, not knowing the answers to last week’s discussion, we can’t even be sure we’re asking the right questions. However, we know that not all Soulcasting requires the consent of the target; it’s a fair bet that the thugs in TWoK’s “The Lesson” didn’t exactly consent to being turned to fire, crystal, and smoke. Whether that’s a Jasnah thing, or an Elsecallers thing… we just don’t know. Or if it’s just a level-of-experience thing.
While the evidence of the ship and the stick gives us a pretty strong indication that Shallan is not likely to have used a coercive Transformation on the men in question here, it’s still not concrete proof that it can’t be done.
Re: burning the prayer – well, as I said, new habits and attitudes need to be established, and as you say, we’re never really done being reformed. So maybe “complete” was another poor choice of words; nonetheless, I think it had a major impact in terms of solidifying their new identity in their own minds. It went from potential to actual during the fight, and to me, that realization takes place when they see the faces of those who offered the prayer, and their acceptance of an actual new identity takes place when they burn the prayer. I think burning it also represents a certain commitment on their part. So, sure, there’s still work to be done, but there’s a sense in which the work has been done as well.
(There’s a whole discussion of salvation and sanctification to be had here, but… probably not here here.)
In the case of the thugs, was it their consent, or the consent of their atoms?
ZenBossanova @27
I’m going to open up that can of worms by positing it was consent of the reflection of their collective atoms–one of those “glass beads”–in the cognitive (+/- spiritual, as necessary) realm which was required. This makes the situation parallel to that for the stick and the ship. However, I can accept the possibility that it may work differently for sentient life because I don’t think we know with certainty that sentient life forms have “beads” in the cognitive realm.
I’m sure there are holes to be punched, so let’s kick it around a while. Of course Wetlandernw’s list of unknowns applies here too.
Aside: Are we working toward a definition for the soul of something/someone, at least in the Cosmere sense?
@28 Ways- The “soul” of a person is not something that I think we’re close to knowing about. Yes, what Shallan did with the men in this chapter could be akin to “soulcasting” people on some level, as people are saying, but from the Mistborn Trilogy (specifically from Hero of Ages) there is info that human souls go to the third realm, the spiritual realm, not the cognitive realm that has beads corresponding to objects in the “real” world. The SA doesn’t appear to be exploring the spiritual realm, at least not in this first 5-book arc, so I tend to doubt that we will learn more about human souls and where they go after death.
@28 Are we working toward a definition for the soul of something/someone, at least in the Cosmere sense?
Good question for Brandon.
Living beings show up as flames, not (or perhaps in addition to?)
beads:
I’m glad someone mentioned Jasnah transforming the thugs…I was going to and forgot. Of course it’d be Alice that spots it. :)
Agreed completely on your a/b/c of things we don’t know about Soulcasting, and of how Shallan’s and Jasnah’s may differ, either because of experience, personality, Elsecaller vs. Lightweaver, or all of the above.
Also – do we know of any powers Transformation gives that *aren’t* Soulcasting?
Also also – in chapter 6 “Terrible Destruction”, Jasnah tells Shallan that Soulcasting is “a dangerous art, more so now than it once was.” Why? Because spren distrust humans post-Recreance, or what?
Also also also (Leigh has been a terrible influence on me), when Shallan Soulcasts the ship in chapter 7 “Open Flame”, Pattern says twice that he will “intercede” for her, translate for her to the spren of the ship, b/c “You are not ready.” That lends credence to the idea that Shallan’s limitations with Soulcasting may be *her* limitations at this point in her development, and that some of them may be overcome in time.
I do wonder how long Soulcasting takes. Shallan’s Shadesmar experience with the ship doesn’t seem to take much time, but SOME time is passing the Physical Realm – she sees sailors’ minds wink out as they are being killed. Is time passing at the same rate? Because Jasnah’s examples don’t seem to require the time for a shift into Shadesmar and a conversation with spren convincing them to change.
On the issue of consent, though, and Jasnah not having it from the thugs…well, I *probably* agree with that. But I’m also reminded of a scene from Barbara Hambly’s “Dragonsbane”, where the protagonist, witch Jenny Waynest, is explaining shapechanging, and how she probably couldn’t convince another character to let herself be turned into a lapdog. “There is very little of the lapdog in your soul”, she says, approximately. But, on the other hand, she thinks she probably could get consent to change her into a beautiful smoke gray filly, running free.
So…maybe one thug wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, another wanted to be immortalized, and the other thought so little of himself than when she said “you’re like ashes on the wind” he said “Ok.”
:) I’m almost entirely kidding. Almost.
@24, 25, 26 – thanks all for the kind words.
Edited a mispelled word.
@25 and 26 re: the burning of the prayer – yes, definitely a huge milestone. (Alice – the salvation/sanctification terminology was definitely in my mind as well. But agreed that’s not a discussion for here.) But the point I wanted to bring out was Shallan’s instinctive awareness that she needed to keep them moving in a good direction. That was a great insight. (And Alice’s commentary did note it – I just wanted to amplify it a bit.) It takes time to establish new habits.
In thinking about this, and about the various levels of culpability and/or dislike we direct at Tvlakv, Gaz, Vathah, and others, I’m reminded that when Shallan confronted the bandits, she at first saw lust from them and felt that as a threat. I don’t think I want to think too hard about what those desperate men might have been thinking of doing…and whether they’d already done that before with other victims they encountered…
I’m going to say they hadn’t. Just b/c otherwise I can’t stand it. But it does raise a potential ethical dilemma – is it appropriate for Shallan to be offering these men a blanket amnesty when she doesn’t know their crimes?
Beyond that, I have to say that from my one read of WOR, Vathah didn’t make much impression – I honestly don’t remember if I worried about what he was going to do. I didn’t really remember much about Gaz from WOK, either, to be honest. But…wasn’t he in danger himself, of being sent to a bridge crew if he couldn’t control Bridge 4? “Just following orders” isn’t much excuse, but if he was afraid of being sent to a bridge crew himself, or otherwise running afoul of Sadeas, well, that mitigates my condemnation of him.
Oh, while Vathah didn’t leave much impression on me, I can say that I remember being entirely surprised when Tyn turned out to be a con-woman. It seems obvious that there’s something up with her in doing this reread, but originally I just thought she was smarter and more perceptive than the others, being (rightfully) skeptical of Shallan’s claims.
Oh, almost forgot! Re: “idea of each Order combining it’s two surges to come up with unique abiilities that no other Order of Radiants had”, there’s this Word of Brandon from Theoryland’s archive:
‘There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant. Each order was based on a combination of two of the “smaller” magic systems in this world, so to speak. You combine two of them together and they each had something kind of “their own”. ‘
So there you go. In that same quote he talks about the diagram from the WOK inside cover with the ten essences, the God’s Eyes thing. Can someone who can id the glyphs help me here? Where is there a representation of that (corrected) with the Surges named? And which two Surges are at the center? Would they be, sort of, ‘God surges’, like the ‘God metals’ in Mistborn?
Chris @23 and …
While I strongly agree that I don’t want another “against your will” magic, I don’t really think you can take the stick incident and even Vatah as proof, that it won’t be possible.
The stick was her third (actually remembered) attempt at soulcasting. When you look how long it took Kaladin to only breath in stomlight and how often he tried to jump to the wall until he understood what he had to do, I can certainly see that it’s a developement thin. You touched it in your later comment. Pattern says she’s not ready, IMO implying, that if she progresses in her path to become a true Knight Radiant she will be. Same with Vatah: right now she needs people’s willingness – but later – I’m not so sure, though I hope so.
@34: ask and you shall be given :), at least I’ll try.
(edit: it didn’t yet work). If not, I can send it through fb.
Try to show you the labled endsheet:
No, it’s not working, sorry.
I tried to insert .jpg via Image-button and with just copy/paste, which results in a wall of garbled text but not the picture it showed in the preview.
Does anybody know, what I do wrong? (flagging for attention)
(Moderator note: should be fixed now.)
@33, Tyn is a fighter and mercenary who is capable of organizing the ostensible assassination of the most powerful woman in Roshar – not just a con artist. She relates to Shallan primarily in the latter role since that is her impression of Shallan. Further, your question of the ethics of Shallan promising an amnesty to the group of deserters without knowing their crimes pales in comparison to Shallan strangling her father as he lay paralyzed. While there was justification for her brutal act in terms of preventing further killing by her out-of-control father, it should invoke more moral qualms than an offer of amnesty to people who may have been guilty of violent acts. In both cases, she judged the end to justify the means. I don’t know how that is consistent with the Radiant oath, “journey before destination”. However, Cryptics are, apparently, not as particular about such matters as are Honorspren.
@travyl What’s the full URL of the image you’re trying to insert?
Regarding, transformation that is not soulcasting, there is Growth, that Lift demonstrates. I am not sure that is close enough, but it is certainly a kind of transformation.
If the ship turned into water, but really wanted to be a ship, could it be reverse transformed? I mean, if Shallan or Jasnah went into Shadesmar, and found one bead from the ship, could they feasibly reassemble the Wind’s Pleasure?
Katharine@38: it’s my own image, and I have it on my compuer (no website-adress. I tried to upload it to the server (which worked) and selected it (which seemed to have worked). The picture is even still there, when I edit my comment, it’s just not showing.
I tried copy/paste as an alternative but that gets an even worse result as described above.
@37. STBLST:
Do you have more qualms / think we should have more qualms, because she killed him while paralized? I think we can discuss the ethics / moral implication of her killing her father, but the fact that she finished it, while he was paralized, doesn’t change the fact for me.
Katharine & Travyl – I think I just figured it out and fixed it.
@41 travyl, strangling her father as he lay helpless using the necklace that he had given her is a shocking act – one of the most dramatic and shocking acts of a major, sympathetic protagonist that I can recall in literature. It’s not as if he were in a position to continue his loss-of-control violence against his son. Rather, Shallan feared that her father’s survival would imperil the family – even if he were physically unable to vent his anger towards them. Shallan crooning her father’s lullaby as she strangled him only increases the shock value of the act in that she fully realizes that her father has loved and protected her, but she follows through anyway. One can debate the morality of the act as well as the ethics of proclaiming a pardon for the deserters – an outcome over which she has little control. Clearly, the motivation for her acts was the saving of life, it’s only a question of justifying the means. I can see that justification far more easily in the latter case than the former.
STBLST: to clarify. I don’t compare her murderer of her father with the will to pardon the deserters unknowing if they earned it.
I wondered if you find Shallans act of killing more glaring – performed while he was paralized, as opposed to if her first attempt in poisoning him had worked.
I agree that the impact on the reader and the impact it must have had on her is certainly stronger because she has to kill her father twice so to speak, just wondering if it was the killing itself or the helpless-part of it (as opposed to the furtive poisoning) which bothers you more.
Stefan @42, thanks. Did I do something wrong, I can do better / differently the next time? Or is it a bug of the website.
Travyl @44 – I’m not 100% sure, actually. Somehow the “www.tor.com” part of the image’s URL was missing — once I added that in, the image showed up. I’ll check into it.
@39 ZenBossanova – I’m using Transformation as the official name of the Surge by which Soulcasting is performed. It’s certainly also regular, non-capitalized transformation, and transmutation, and whatever else we want to call it. But I’m using capitalized Transformation in the technical sense, as the name of the Surge (also capitalized because also being used in a technical sense). The name of the Surge Lift uses is Growth, as you note, or also Progression (as we see in the handy diagram – thanks travyl and Stefan!). So – it’s certainly transforming plants, but it’s not Transformation – it’s Progression.
STBLST @33 and following – to be honest, I don’t remember a lot of the details of Shallan’s killing her father. I remember my theory after tWOK was that Shallan killed her father and took his Shardblade, explaining how she had one. I had *no* idea that spren *were* the Blades of the KR. (And Iwasn’t part of the WOK reread because I hadn’t read it yet, so if you folks knew, I didn’t.) So, anyway – most of my reaction that I remember is the gradual realization that Shallan killing her father hadn’t happened as I presumed.
It’s weird how my memory works – the esoteric stuff sinks in the first time, I remember exact phrases about Soulcasting – but a lot of the plot and secondary characters are fuzzier.
All of that to say, I’ll have to comment on the ethics of Shallan’s actions vis a vis her father’s killing (murder, I guess) when we get there in the reread.
For what it’s worth, I’d never questioned Shallan’s ethics in regards to the deserters until working through these comments over the last day or so. But I do still think it’s troubling for her to pronounce amnesty not knowing if there are rapists and murderers among them. Desertion and banditry are one thing; those other crimes are a whole different story.
Perhaps a connection with her father’s death is in her speech about starting over, though, starting fresh. Perhaps part of her effectiveness in persuading them is that she believes, or wants to believe, in second chances for herself and her family.
@34 Travyl – I agree with all of your excellent points. Shallan’s just (re)learning to Surgebind and it’s early yet. All of my reasoning just makes me think it _unlikely_ but not impossible that she is Compelling people, or capable of that…at this point in the story. And more than that, I wanted to make the point that Transforming – whether in the Physical realm or the Cognitive – is a different Surge than Illumination, which powers Lightweaving.
Although, as another counterpoint, I reread the Ars Arcana entry for Lightweaveing last night, and there’s this statement about this form of illusion-making: “this method has a powerful Spiritual element, requiring not just a full mental picture of the intended creation, but some level of connection to it as well.”
So there *is* a strong Spiritual component to Lightweaving – it *is* more than just a picture. Now, the connection it’s talking about is a connection between the _Lightweaver_ and her illusion, not between the illusion and a subject she’s making a picture of; so on balance, I still think the cognitive/spiritual changing comes from Transformation via persuasion, rather than through manipulation via Lightweaving. But there’s certainly plenty of room for me to be wrong; and there’s plenty of room for the combination of Illumination and Transformation together to be what inspires and changes people.
Either way, at this point in Shallan’s development, it’s clear that people *can* resist, if they want to do so.
If the image was uploaded to tor and then copy and pasted, the copied URL was probably a relative path, but the link needed an absolute file location.
STBLST @37:
I am not sure why Lin Davar being paralyzed should negatively affect our judgement of Shallan’s actions. The notion of a “fair fight” inherently favors the strong and the skilled. Shallan couldn’t have “honorably” duelled her father. In fact, Balat, who tried, seems to have lost in part because he couldn’t whole-heartedly embrace the goal of killing his father, while Lin was single-mindedly murderous, while also apparently stronger and more skilled.
Anyway, once Lin recovered from paralysis, he likely would have tried to finish what he started – i.e. kill Balat and Eylita. Shallan’s peaceful resistance had already allowed him to murder their step-mother and cripple Balat, I am not sure why she should have given him an opportunity to do even more damage? IMHO, in this case the road and the destination were very closely linked. Just because Shallan couldn’t meet her father in single combat like Kaladin would have done, doesn’t mean that her actions were any less protective and necessary.
Re: blanket amnesty. Of course the bandits must have murdered and likely raped too, during their outlaw careers. But how else could Shallan have drawn them to her side and induced them to save and protect innocents, who would have become victims otherwise?
Most people are far more amenable to positive change if they see a hope of a clean slate for themselves too.
And trusting Shallan and helping her was a significant risk for them. IIRC Vathah admitted when they got the amnesty that never actually expected Shallan to keep her promise. He started to truly follow her after he saw her shardblade, but even so he fully believed that she was leading them to their deaths, albeit giving them a taste of a better life and self-respect in the process.
Yes, amnesty for the bandits is not just. But it is… merciful? Towards them and all the other people whom they saved in the process and who might have become their victims, both currently and in the future, in different circumstances.
Rather, amnesty is not just, and it is merciful, but is it wise?
I think so.
And right now Humanity (and other sentient species on Roshar) need all the help and hands they can get.
@chaplainchris1 Welcome back and thank you for bringing so much to the conversation :) I’ve enjoyed your comments in the past but never directly interacted with you. Also, I wish I could watch a “real life” conversation between you and Wetlandernw on salvation, repentance, etc.
You’ve made me wonder about how law works in Vorin Roshar. The bandits get writs of pardon that cover past actions. I wonder what would happen if some later caravan had shown up after the fact and said, “This and such and whatnot happened to us on the road here and there are the men that did it to us!” I’m sure it would be frustrating to hear they were already pardoned before the accusation could be brought forth.
Bellaberry @52 – I wish I could see a real life conversation between chaplainchris and I, too! :) Chris, got any reason to come to Seattle any time soon?
@50 Isilel, If you can’t see the difference between killing an armed assailant and killing a helpless assailant, then I am at a loss to explain. Particularly when that assailant is your own father who has, in his way, loved and protected you. Now he lies helpless and may never recover mobility. Stil he represents a potential serious danger to the family. So, Shallan proceeds to strangle him with the necklace that was his present to her. That experience must result in serious psychological effects – albeit, not as severe as realizing that her own mother sought to kill her and then killing her mother in self-defense. She can recall the former, but needs Pattern’s guidance in remembering the latter. Were it not for her unusual mental protective abilities, she would not have been able to function after such traumas.
Okay, I read this chapter to be fresh with the re-read, a little belatedly, and realized I’d been waiting for this chapter so I could say something. Oops. Well here I go anyway.
You know how when a character in book has an accent that can’t be placed that it’s usually a clue for off-worldliness? Well that happens in this chapter!
But Macob is so mundane it makes me question the implication.
Bellaberry @55 – Oh. My. I noticed that, but failed to make the connection. Hmm. Would a worldhopper have reason to pose as a trader? Just keeping an eye on Tyn might be important… but would it be important enough to tie him up for this long? Now I had to go look at his description: an older, bearded man with blue eyes.
Please don’t tell me this is Hoid in disguise… but I’m pretty sure it could be… We haven’t seen him doing much of this kind of thing on Roshar, but it’s exactly the kind of role we’ve seen him play on other worlds. It would have to be a pretty good disguise, though, because when she sees Wit later, she recognizes him from five years ago, and she certainly doesn’t recognize him in this scene.
Re: Macob – interesting, but…seems a little thin for much speculating, to me. Brandon’s built more with less, I know, but even so.
Isilel and STBLST – it seems to me that you’re talking past each other a little bit in your last posts. Isilel seems to be talking about the question of whether Shallan’s killing of her father is more or less morally offensive than other acts; STBLST seems to be looking at how traumatic the events are. To be fair, I think Isilel has been addressing the issue you first brought up, STBLST – but you’re changing the ground of the argument.
We were discussing Shallan offering amnesty to people whose crimes were unknown – and you brought up Shallan’s own crime. It was almost a non sequitur, though we might have talked about how Shallan’s own history prepared her to look past shocking and horrible acts from others, in the right circumstances.
But at any rate, you originally seemed focused on calling out her act as specially morally troubling and now seemed to have shifted to it as simply especially traumatic. Or am I misunderstanding your latest post, at 54?
I note that the issue of the morality of promising amnesty to deserters vs killing one’s father to rescue her brother is still being debated. Let me clarify my position. While I believe that the end doesn’t justify the means, there are exceptions depending on the end and the means used. If someone is trying to commit murder, I believe that you have every right to stop him by whatever means are feasible – including, in the extreme, killing him. Shallans father was in the process of shattering Balat’s leg and may not have stopped his brutal assault until his son was dead when Shallan poisoned him. That act of poisoning could be considered justifiable in that it saved her brother from more serious damage – even though she resorted to a devious means. She could not physically oppose her father (she would not summon that ‘accursed’ shardblade which killed her mother), and used the only means available to her. Lin Davar had already killed his 2nd wife, Malise, prior to the confrontation with Balat. His out-of-control behavior made him a menace to the family. Once he lay paralyzed from the poison, he was no longer a direct physical threat, but remained a potential threat if he recovered his voice – much less, made a full recovery. The lack of an immediate threat to life made his killing by his beloved (in his way) daughter morally questionable. The emotional shock aspect of Shallan’s actions is, indeed, not really germane to the question of their morality. It does, however, effect how the reader reacts to it. In contrast, promising some dangerous type men amnesty if they would rescue a caravan from bandits is not problematic in my eyes. She believes, as do they, that she can turn their lives around if they but listen to her plea. Reformation of criminals is far better than mere punishment. She may also have learned enough about Dalinar from Jasnah to believe that he will also listen to her plea for amnesty, so that she is not lying when she talks of amnesty.
@59 STBLST – thanks for the clarification, I see where you’re coming from now.
For what it’s worth, I still am waiting to have an opinion on Shallan’s killing her father until we get there and I reread it for myself. I can tell you that at the time I first read it I completely thought she was justified, and based on the details you provide refreshing my memory, I’m likely to still think that. It seems that he was lost in insanity, and as far as I can tell, legally he had complete power over his family. He’d become a clear and present danger. I also felt that inspite of everything Shallan loved her father, and didn’t kill him out of anger or hate or even fear; just what she judged necessary. That’s part of the horror of the whole thing.
Well, look, I guess I had an opinion after all. I’ll just leave it open to revision when we revisist the text.
Re: the deserters, I’ll note that a) I agree with you about reformation being better than punishment, that b) when I first read the text I didn’t question her actions, finding them awesome, and c) I only questioned them in this discussion because it suddenly occurred to me to wonder about blanket amnesty sight unseen. In balance, I still find it an awesome scene and a very cool event.
I suppose the other reason I asked about it is that I’d only considered the events from Shallan’s point of view, being thoroughly caught up in Brandon’s story. It occurred me to wonder how people would feel, how I would feel, if, say, you read a story about this in the newspaper. So I was trying to consider it in the abstract, when not caught up in Shallan’s emotions and urgency.