Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, the four highprinces agreed to push on toward the center of the Shattered Plains, while Kaladin had an uncomfortable conversation with Elhokar. This week, Shallan’s map is completed and battle is joined, while Kaladin is again uncomfortable.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 81: The Last Day
Point of View: Dalinar, Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan, Dalinar
Setting: the center of the Shattered Plains; the Kholin warcamp
Symbology: Kholin Glyphpair, Ishar, Chanarach
IN WHICH the Alethi are surrounded by Parshendi with glowing red eyes; Dalinar issues challenges & marching orders to the highprinces; Navani refuses her orders; the Parshendi begin to sing; the battle plan changes in response.
Kaladin searches out Zahel; he receives an unwanted explanation; he asks about choosing between distasteful options; Zahel gives advice he wishes he’d followed; Kaladin attempts spear practice in the rain; he’s clumsy, and nothing works; he yells at the sky, but his words echo other conversations; he realizes that may be too strong a consequence for failed expectation; the king is Dalinar’s Tien.
Adolin prepares for the initial attack; he charges, and lightning strikes; Sureblood is down, the world stops; Adolin leaps back into battle, leading his men to rally against the Voidbringer Parshendi.
Shallan draws, mapping the entire Plains according to the pattern; a beta reader scout enters with information on the center plateau; Pattern does not like the distant crashing; Inadara does not like Pattern; the sentiment is returned; Renarin is fascinated by Pattern; Pattern is insulting; he worries about the Voidspren; another scout points out an error on the map; Shallan objects and then realizes that a detail which does not match the pattern is Significant.
Renarin is assigned to watch over and help Shallan; he’s uncertain, but goes as ordered; the battle goes poorly against the new Parshendi form; Dalinar adjusts tactics to stop the singing; Shallan and company depart to search for the Oathgate; the Almighty speaks.
Quote of the Week
Out of this chapter, I’m supposed to pick one outstanding quotation??
“That song!” Rlain said. “That song.”
“What is it, man?”
“It is death,” Rlain whispered. “Brightlord, I have never heard it before, but the rhythm is one of destruction. Of power.”
Across the chasm, the Parshendi started to glow. Tiny lines of red sparked around their arms, blinking and shaking, like lightning.
…
“You have to stop it,” Rlain said. “Please. Even if you have to kill them. Do not let them finish that song.”
Between Rlain’s reaction and the Parshendi glowing with little red lightnings, you know it’s going to get hazardous. Well, okay, you know that anyway, but I still like the sense of dread this conversation evokes.
Also: It’s fascinating that even without access to the new Rhythms, Rlain recognizes the danger inherent in the singing.
Off the Wall
The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however.
—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 14
I wonder how reliable Taravangian’s information is. I’d had the impression that there were just a handful of Unmade, but this sounds like he’s including everything we thought of as Voidspren in his definition of Unmade. I suppose that could be valid… If the original spren on Roshar were little splinters of Adonalsium, and the sapient Nahel-bonding spren (and probably many others) are splinters of Honor and Cultivation, it makes sense that the nastier variety which bring about the Listener “forms of the old gods” are splinters of Odium just like the higher-level splinters I’m used to thinking of as Unmade. I still suspect there’s a difference between the levels, though, because I think there’s sufficient evidence that there were a handful of beings (what race/species I won’t guess!) who chose to join with Odium and became the named entities we’ve thought of as Unmade.
Commentary
If the increased number of POV shifts in a chapter tells you you’re getting close to the climax of the book, you know you’re there now. Four different POV characters in one chapter? We’ve reached the point where everything is happening at once, and the reader needs to be aware that these events are concurrent.
It makes for a very long chapter—and a very long reread post.
The feeling of pending disaster created by those glowing red eyes is worth it solely for the effect on the other highprinces. Roion and Aladar nearly come unglued when they realize Dalinar expected something of this nature. Sebarial, on the other hand, seems as unfazed by the glowing eyes as he is by anything else, despite his open acknowledgement that he’s completely useless in a battle. Everyone recognizes this as validation of Dalinar’s visions.
Navani, of course, refuses to be ordered around, telling Dalinar that he’ll just have to pretend she’s somewhere safe; she’s got work to do. Heh. I love Navani. I wonder if she’s wearing a glove instead of a long sleeve for this work?
Meanwhile, Kaladin grumbles around the camp. He’s so grumpy it even makes him mad when his food tastes good. I do have to wonder just why Zahel makes such a point of explaining the sand washing to him; is this a metaphor, or just world-building? It is notable that, unlike the rain from a highstorm, Weeping-time rain has no crem in it. Why?
One of the best sections of this chapter is the advice Zahel gives Kaladin:
“Have you ever had to choose between two equally distasteful choices?”
“Every day I choose to keep breathing.”
“I worry something awful is going to happen,” Kaladin said. “I can prevent it, but the awful thing… it might be best for everyone if it does happen.”
“Huh,” Zahel said.
“No advice?” Kaladin asked.
“Choose the option,” Zahel said, rearranging his pillow, “that makes it easiest for you to sleep at night.” The old ardent closed his eyes and settled back. “That’s what I wish I’d done.”
Not only does it give us another glimpse into Zahel’s mind, it sets Kaladin up for something he needs to realize: Killing someone because they don’t live up to your expectations is not justifiable. Not only that, but the person whose failure bothers you so much just might be of vital importance to someone else. He’s finally got to the point of recognizing that he has neither the authority nor the wisdom to determine whether the king should live or die—but that it’s his job to prevent murder.
Adolin’s section is full of small noteworthy items: bridgemen who fight though it’s not required, because those aren’t Parshendi anymore; leadership, taking the point position because he’s the best able to survive as well as to inspire; the loss of his Ryshadium (see below); the lightning used by the Parshendi—and the discovery that they can’t actually control it very well. One that I hope becomes a Thing later on is his Shardplate: when he is directly struck by the lightning, not only is he unharmed, his armor is purring and his helm blocks the lightning exactly without dimming the rest of his field of vision. As he notes, this Plate was created expressly for the purpose of fighting Voidbringers, and it still works. I do hope this is explained eventually… and that it keeps working in the meantime!
Most of the interesting parts of Shallan’s POV are covered in units below, but I do need to note this: her ability to see the pattern in the Plains is critical to her effort to get to the center, but the final key is recognizing a break in the pattern.
“That’s wrong,” he said.
Wrong? Her art? Of course it wasn’t wrong. “Where?” she asked, exhausted.
“That plateau there,” the man said, pointing. “It’s not long and thin, as you drew it. It’s a perfect circle, with big gaps between it and the plateaus on its east and west.”
“That’s unlikely,” Shallan said. “If it were that way—” She blinked.
If it were that way, it wouldn’t match the pattern.
And her exhaustion almost made her miss it.
Renarin is also in this chapter.
Actually, there are a couple of things to point out. One is his fascination with Pattern, which in retrospect is likely related to his questions about Glys and his own sanity. The other is his extreme discomfort with the task he’s given: as a full Shardbearer, he’s expected to accompany and protect Shallan. His lack of training makes him unsuitable for the actual battle, but he definitely sees better than Dalinar how his lack of training also makes him an unsuitable guard. I feel sorry for him, but I’m really conflicted about his assigned role. Dalinar meant well in giving him Blade and Plate, and Renarin desperately wants to be a soldier, but he’s just not suited to the task. On the other hand, as a plot device, it has the advantage of putting him in the right place at the right time to set up a domino sequence of revelations. Even as I get irritated at both Dalinar and Renarin for “wasting” the Blade and Plate on someone who can’t fight instead of giving the army another active Shardbearer, I have to admire the realism of the characters, and the way their weaknesses play into the plot that’s being laid out.
Dalinar, meanwhile, keeps busy directing his armies… until the Stormfather starts talking to him.
“I am sorry that you have to die this way.”
Thank you for nothing, you useless reptile.
Stormwatch
It was the day of the countdown he had scribbled on the walls without knowing. The last day.
Boom.
(Note that at this point, Dalinar still thinks he was the one who unknowingly wrote the countdown on the walls.)
Sprenspotting
Three quotes:
He looked across a sea of hopeful eyes. Storms. Were those gloryspren about his head, spinning like golden spheres in the rain?
It’s odd to think of gloryspren in this context; Dalinar doesn’t seem to have any particular sense of achievement, just an impassioned speech to his men to embolden them for the fight ahead. Could this be a case where gloryspren are drawn by the honor others bestow on him?
Though these Parshendi soldiers were sleeker and more ferocious-looking than the ones he’d previously fought, their eyes burned just as easily. Then they dropped dead and something wiggled out of their chests— small red spren, like tiny lightning, that zipped into the air and vanished.
I’m sure y’all picked this up by now, but the subject of the spren bonded to the Parshendi was brought up in the JordanCon Q&A session with Brandon. He refused to address the notion of Parshendi gemhearts; though the question was cleverly phrased to attempt to get him to confirm or deny the idea, he managed to not answer. In answer to another question, he also said that the spren which bond to Parshendi are unaffected by the death of their host, so what we see here is normal—when they die, the spren leave.
The pops continued outside. “What is that?” she asked softly, finishing another plateau.
“Stormspren,” Pattern said. “They are a variety of Voidspren. It is not good. I feel something very dangerous brewing. Draw more quickly.”
Pattern’s clever insult to Inadara, when she insisted on considering him a Voidbringer, was amusing, but only briefly. Somehow, Voidspren just don’t make good joke material.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
He finally blinked his eyes clear enough to get a good look. The whiteness was a horse, fallen to the ground.
Adolin screamed something raw, a sound that echoed in his helm. He ignored the shouts of soldiers, the sound of rain, the sudden and unnatural crack behind him. He ran to the body on the ground. Sureblood.
“No, no, no,” Adolin said, skidding to his knees beside the horse. The animal bore a strange, branching burn all down the side of his white coat. Wide, jagged. Sureblood’s dark eyes, open to the rain, did not blink.
Adolin raised his hands, suddenly hesitant to touch the animal.
A youth on an unfamiliar field.
Sureblood wasn’t moving.
More nervous that day than during the duel that won his Blade.
Shouts. Another crack in the air, sharp, immediate.
They pick their rider, son. We fixate on Shards, but any man—courageous or coward—can bond a Blade. Not so here, on this ground. Only the worthy win here…
Move.
Grieve later.
Move!
Once more, this is a scene I simply cannot read without tears. Some readers say they never felt invested enough in the Ryshadium, or in Adolin’s bond with Sureblood, for this to be deeply emotional. Perhaps I have a weakness for magically bonded animals in fantasy, like the dragons of Pern, who also choose their rider. In any case, the death of Sureblood is a punch in the gut for me.
In Oathbringer, I hope for two things related to this scene: to see Adolin grieve this loss, and to learn more about the Ryshadium. They seem to be one of the “imports” among the various Rosharan fauna, but one which has developed a magical component as well.
You Have to Break a Lot of Rockbuds
He hadn’t found the man, though he had broken down and bought some chouta from a lonely street vendor.
It had tasted good. That hadn’t helped his mood.
A small moment of levity in an otherwise intense chapter.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
Zahel reveals once again that he’s not from around here:
“It’s ridiculously shallow,” Zahel said. “Like an endless bay, mere feet deep. Warm water. Calm breezes. Reminds me of home. Not like this cold, damp, godsforsaken place.”
“So why aren’t you there instead of here?”
“Because I can’t stand being reminded of home, idiot.”
“Home,” of course, we know to be Nalthis—and perhaps particularly the area around T’Telir, which is very like this description of the Purelake climate. One wonders, though… why does he hate being reminded of home? I can think of some possibilities…
He also refers oddly to Hoid, when Kaladin asks if he knows where the King’s Wit is:
“That fool, Dust? Not here, blessedly. Why?”
I have to wonder if the name “Dust” comes as a result of a peculiar method of storytelling he used in Warbreaker, involving colorful dust, sand, etc.
One Worldhopper who has only recently been recognized shows up here, as well:
“Shim and Felt are scouting those,” Lyn said. “Felt should be back soon.”
Again, in the Q&A at JordanCon, someone asked if the Felt in this scene was the same Felt as the man Elend Venture employed in the Mistborn Era 1 books. Brandon confirmed this, leaving us to wonder who recruited him as a worldhopper, and just why he’s serving as a Kholin scout.
There’s always another secret.
Oh, one more… sort of. The scout, Lyn, is based on one of Brandon’s beta readers; the real-life person is something of a cartographer herself, as well as a writer and a fire artist and several other cool things. She’s awesome, and I’m proud to call her a friend.
Heraldic Symbolism
Ishar: Pious, Guiding; Priest; Bondsmiths; Herald of Luck
There are multiple possibilities, not least that Dalinar is guiding the battle against the Voidbringers, and needs all the luck he can get. My best guess, though, is that Ishar represents the order of Bondsmiths, of which Dalinar is becoming a member. (According to my pet theory, it’s also possible that Ishar is in this chapter in person, as Zahel… but that’s just a theory. We can debate it in the comments, if you wish.)
Chana: Brave, Obedient; Guard; Dustbringers; Fire
Hey, new theory!! Lyn is Chana in disguise! Okay, not really, but it would be fun, and I need a moment of lightness here. In reality, I have no idea why Chana is here, unless her impending Dustbringer is here too. She’s often shown on Adolin’s POV chapters, but here he’s much more soldier than guard. Kaladin isn’t doing any guarding today, except for the chouta. Rlain and the bridgemen? Seems odd to choose a Herald based on such limited screen time. Renarin? He’s doing guard duty over Shallan & Co., but it seems more likely we’d see his “patron Herald” Palah. The only other thing I’ve got is the courage shown by the highprinces in spite of themselves, or the fire the Listeners are using in the form of Lightning.
The way this usually works, now, is that y’all point out the obvious connection I missed. Okay?
Just Sayin’
“Oh, Almighty!” Roion whispered, looking at those red eyes. “Oh, by the names of God himself. What have you brought us to, Dalinar?”
Very, very Vorin. I really don’t have anything more to say about it, but it was profoundly fitting, in context.
“Excellent deduction,” Zahel said. “Like fresh blue paint on a wall.”
Again with the “colorful metaphors,” Zahel. This would be a Nalthian saying, not a Rosharan one, of course.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Kaladin returns to his duty and Adolin remembers how to slay rocks.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Today she leaves you with these words of wisdom: “It’s like I’ve always said, you can get more with a kind word and a 2×4 than you can with just a kind word.”
Getting so close to the end now… I just reread the two stormlight books – I feel like we need another excerpt released to keep us going
About the Unmade, I think there’s a good chance that Taravangian is wrong here, or at least so incomplete that the truth is very different from his supposition. I thought I remembered reading that Odium was against dividing or diluting his power, so it wouldn’t make sense that there would be a lot of Odium splinters floating around.
I’m looking forward to learning more about the Ryshadium, too. It’s odd that two books in, we still have no idea where they come from, where they’re raised/grow up, and how people bond with them. Their history seems tied to the Knights in some way, from a remark Sanderson made in an interview about knights needing remarkable horses, weapons, and armor. Humans seem to have brought most of Roshar’s mammals with them, so it makes sense that the ancestors of the Ryshadium arrived with them.
Does the death of Adolin’s horse mean that he once had an open path to knighthood, and now his life is headed down a different course? It could be a deeply symbolic as well as emotional event.
Spren choose which humans to bond to, so do Ryshadium. Both are associated with Investiture. Spren grant investiture (powers) Ryshadium are themselves invested. Hmm.. parallels.
As for Death Rattles, I feel like even if it’s symbolic/metaphoric truth, since they’re being given through Unmade, which is of Odium, it’s possible that they’re omitting some important information. Omitting in such a way to be completely out of context and drive Mr. T to wrongful actions. In that I mean, assume the diagram did what T wanted it to do, and he’s using the Death Rattles as course corrections, but by omitting stuff, they’re driving him off course (amd off a cliff :) )
Oh… I’m still not sure if this a reflection of his actions prior to the start of Warbreaker – or something from Warbreaker 2. And I know we are supposed to be left with this question. I’ve never bothered asking Brandon since it just has RAFO screaming at us.
Yet it is a perfect end line to his conversation.
Adolin’s shardplate – that was such a moment of excited tingles when I first read the book. So hard on the heels of my screaming almost like Adolin at the loss of Sureblood. NO!! I want more magical ponies! I want them to live! Don’t kill the magical ponies!
That flashback was such a perfect moment of “time slows down in grief.” It gets me too, even if we don’t have much time with the two interacting. Brandon has said he’s not much of a horse person, so that may be why.
Please check out the great pictures on the 17th Shard that I linked to above.
I’m looking forward to meeting Glys. Renarin’s reaction to Pattern really makes me wonder what Glys looks like.
Felt – indeed – who recruited him, and why did he take the job? Good to know he survived the remaking of Sel.
Colour based metaphors may seem apt for Nalthis but they just seem jarring to me as I don’t actually remember anything like them in Warbreaker, they just seem like a clumsy retcon. Of course it could be an in-cosmere problem due to however translation works between worlds and we are simply being jarred the same way that the characters are, but even so it just seems clumsy. Can anyone point out any similar metaphors in Warbreaker?
Other than the similarity in the names Vasher and Ishar, what’s the rationale for thinking that the two are one and the same? Vasher (who my autocorrect keeps renaming to Basher) is a Returned (or a Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host), so is the theory that all the Heralds were Returned and therefore worldhoppers from Nalthis? I suppose that would be a way for Endowment to be opposing Odium, sending Returned to Roshar to fight against the Desolation. I’m not sure I like that theory. It subordinates too much of what happens on Roshar to what happened on Nalthis, especially now that Nightblood is joining the party.
@5: That’s a problem I had with them too. When rereading Warbreaker, I was looking for the color metaphors. There are a few color sayings, but nothing like what Vasher sounds like now.
So, one – it is a translation issue.
And two, it might be that the longer Vasher is away from home, and “can’t stand to be reminded about it”, the more he slips into using expressions from home.
@3 yulerule
That’s exactly why I wanted to know more about them, and was a little disappointed to see no real elaboration in WoR. There’s a tie to the KR in there, but only one proto-Knight has a bonded Ryshadium and that’s a preexisting relationship that seems unaffected by his bonding of the Stormfather. I don’t recall seeing any Ryshadium in Dalinar’s visions.
Adolin’s memory suggests that there’s a field set aside for trying to bond Ryshadium and there’s some amount of ceremony. But where does this happen and where do the Ryshadium live when they’re not in contact with potential? Are they wild, or is their life similar to the Ranyhyn of the Thomas Covenant series? Why don’t more Alethi seem interested in bonding one?
Kaladin: “Have you ever had to choose between two equally distasteful choices?”
Zahel: “Every day I choose to keep breathing.”
Does Zahel’s answer have something to do with the type of Investiture where one Breathes? (I do not know what series that is from). Could that answer have been another one of Brandon’s Easter Eggs?
I also did not feel any emotional sadness when I read the death of Sureblood. For me there were two reasons. I do not feel that Sureblood was on screen enough for me to build an attachment to him as more than a big horse. This is similar to the lack of reaction whenever a named horse died in the actual text in WoT. It may also have to do with the fact that I do not own any pets. I do not view pets as a member of a family. Although a horse does not live in a family’s house as does a cat or dog, I could see how a rider would consider a horse to be like a pet in the same way that somebody might think of a dog or cat as a member of his/her family.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
See, I knew you would come up with more good stuff. Braid_Tug, thanks for those links – excellent work! And you spotted Toothless. :)
Also, I want y’all to know that I managed to keep it under 3000 words… partly by deleting my promise to do so… but it took some chopping.
@6 Nick31
I like the idea that the struggle against Odium is a Cosmere-wide conflict. If heavily invested Shards are tied to their worlds, sending Splinters like the Returned could be a creative way of contributing to the fight. Nalthis always seemed so self-contained that the prospect of a tie to the events in the wider Cosmere interests me.
It also makes you wonder what happens to the Splinters of Endowment when the Returned die. Is their participation in the fight against Odium at risk of weakening Endowment if they’re destroyed or turned?
It wouldn’t be as interesting if all the Heralds fit that pattern, though a Nalthis origin for one of them would be welcome.
Re: Death of Sureblood – this scene is very heartwrenching for me for many reasons. First reason is Adolin’s anguish. In my mind, I can hear his scream of helplessness. And that just put tears in my eyes. Second is more personal. When I was reading Word of Radiance, we had to euthanize our Welsh Corgi. She was 15 that time. Her back legs just gave out. Corgis live up to 12-15 years on average. So, there really was nothing the vet can do. We were with our Corgi until the end. She died in our arms. Though I knew it was coming, I was not able to stifle my cry of anguish when she took her last breath.
Adolin has been my favorite character since Way of Kings. That Brandon made him go through the death of Sureblood made me think of that day at the vet clinic. And in that moment in the book, I lived that day all over again.
Back to the storyline – The death of Sureblood a\is a pivotal point in Adolin’s character. Sureblood is his constant companion. And for lack of a better word, his only friend other than Renarin. He has no one. His mother is dead. His Father is a High Prince and really has little time for his two sons. He serial dated until Shallan. And Shallan and him have not truly bonded the way lovers should.
Why is Sureblood’s loss important? For me, I am reading it like this – Brandon is getting ready to set up Adolin for something. It is a plot device, and a very powerful one. Isolating a character means something big brewing for that character.
For Harry Potter fans – think of how JK Rowlings isolated Harry – losing Dumbledore and then separated from Ron and Hermione. In fact, in the beginning of the final book, he lost his pet owl first. Of course, he was separated from his Muggle family first. It was emphasized by saying that he will never go back to that residence again.
Anyway, this scene made me scared for Adolin. Where is he going? He will undergo trial by fire and this is the first hurdle.
I can’t wait for Book 3!!! Argghhhhhhhh!!!!
@@.-@ I LOVE the ponies. :D
Good post Alice! Thanks for persevering through such a long chapter!
Sebarial was enjoyable in this chapter, just like he is in most chapters where he appears. He is cognizant of Dalinar handling each of the Highprinces differently, yet has no problem with the handling itself. I think he will be one of those minor characters who will end up playing a large role in this series.
Navani cracks me up sometimes, this chapter very much included. And her fabrials come in rather handy for turning the tide of battle, so good on her for standing her ground and letting Dalinar know that it was, indeed, all hands on deck here.
Zahel’s section was fun, and I think a good portion of it was to inform us that crem doesn’t drop during a Weeping. I kind of expect this to be rather important further on down the line, when we find out more about what/why the Weeping exactly is. Clever of Brandon to just drop that tidbit in here.
Kaladin was set back on the path to doing what he’s supposed to do: protect people. It is weird, the different ways we can receive the realizations or epiphanies that ultimately trigger us to finally do what we should have been doing all along.
Adolin continues to be capable, inspiring and displays a take-charge personality. The loss of Sureblood that Adolin felt really was painful to read, but I continue to respect how Adolin focuses on what needs to get done and takes charge of his life and circumstances. He didn’t need Dalinar to tell him to keep on fighting anymore than he needed Dalinar to tell him to do the vast majority of his actions in WoR; Adolin sees what he thinks is needed –given the circumstances– and he acts accordingly.
I chuckled at your initial mentioning of Renarin. I agree that his reaction to and fascination with Pattern was rather noteworthy (we just don’t fully know how/why yet). Hopefully (and likely), we’ll see more about him and his interaction with spren in the next book.
And the Brandon Avalanche has begun…
@12: Hedwig’s death was brutal.
Sorry about your dog. Not a day to relive.
Just sayin’ addition:
“Like a whitespine through a patch of ferns.” – rather a strong image if you’ve ever seen a wild hog destroy some fields.
@13: I’m thankful to the artists that made them. Glad you love them.
Someone early mentioned if losing Sureblood was symbolic in any way: I have to say, yes I do think it was. A few threads back, some of us have discussed Adolin as a depiction of the old, dusty and seldom used trope of Prince Charming. In our current story, the character set up to represent this typically vapid and uninspiring trope has all the requisite characteristics: handsome, young, shinning armor, magic sword, a white horse, sympathetic and a pristine example of perfection. His imperfections, most notably his inability to form lasting relationships, is completely over-looked by every bystander, nobody thinking twice about it. So all in all, there is a lot of symbolism being put in Adolin in through both books, much more than in any other character. Perhaps Brandon had fun putting it all together, so when he kills off one of the most powerful symbols associated with Adolin, I fear.
The death of Sureblood is a powerful moment for several reasons: for one it is terrible for Adolin. To him, it is a strong blow, but he copes he moves on while remembering how he bonded the fallen horse… A moment which seems to have been important to him as he speaks of how nervous he had been then (since many commentators do not believe me when I state Adolin has issues with stress, I invite those to google their e-book and cross-checked the number of times Brandon used the word “nervous” to describe Adolin. It is surprising.). The other interesting aspect of Sureblood death is the symbolism… The author killed the horse. If he merely wanted to show us how death of a Rhysadium affects its rider, he could have killed Gallant, but it is Sureblood he kills: the white stallion owned by the Golden Boy of the story. So here, in a few lines, Brandon has told us something of import: Adolin is on a downward arc. He had it all, he was perfect (well not perfect, but perfect to every bystander which is all which matters most of the time), he standing at the top of the food chain, but as he rushed into this specific battle, he also rushes into the new world. A new world where Radiants are back, where order is not as it previously was and where he stands in the middle of the tempest while not being given the tools to withstand it. So to me, it is a symbol: the symbol Adolin is going to lose more, much more. It is a scratch on his perfect imagery: he no longer have a magic white horse.
The world has shift. It doesn’t shift later on when they reach Urithiru, it shifts, right now. It shifts when Sureblood death draws the line: on one side you have the Radiants, their squires, the new magic and on the other you have… the rest. Has anyone else notice when authors write stories about great change coming to a given land, it is often carried by a handful of character? Has anyone also notice how authors typically don’t bother with those who were living in the old world, who had a place, but lost it because of the change brought forward by the heroes? Adolin is this character. He isn’t bringing the change, but he is forced to live through it. He may or may not find a place for himself, but one sure thing is, as the story advances, he will be more and more isolated from his family. They all are Radiants, it won’t be long before the counsels happened being closed doors, it won’t be long before they start to hang more and more together, praising themselves for each being capable of better understanding themselves among broken people (isn’t the Shallan/Kaladin most favored argument, they can understand each other because they are both broken… so if it is truly the case, how long before the Radiants just stop hanging with regular people?), completely oblivious to the other people. The Radiants have all been, so far, very centered on their Radiant needs and their Radiant business: they won’t have time to bother with “regular people”.
So to me, Sureblood dying is a symbol Adolin is losing his place in the world and he may lose much more than that before it is all over.
The other aspect I found interesting in this chapter is Renarin. I… I have a hard time feeling sympathy for him in those last scenes. I know I am supposed to feel sympathetic towards him, I am supposed to find him endearing, but the opposite happens. I try not to judge him harshly, but seeing Shards being wasted on him during a crucial battle which took Teleb’s life is disheartening. Especially after reading the second Dalinar flashbacks and seeing to which length Gavilar was wiling to go to secure an additional Plate: those are horribly valuable. Kingdoms have gone to war for one single Shards, so how is it everyone is fine to see them being useless on Renarin, starting by Renarin himself? They should have been lent to someone else and while Dalinar was right to ask Renarin to actually have a function, he should have by now admitted his youngest son is just not fit for soldering, Plate or no Plate. Renarin’s reaction also gets on my bad side… all his life he has been complaining over not being allowed to be a soldier, now he finally is allowed to contribute and his first answer is no? What did he expect? He would be allowed to jump around in a Plate just for his self-esteem while never being asked to actually to some work with it? Bah I know I am being unfair but Renarin truly gets on my bad side in this scene.
Re: the color metaphors
It’s been implied that the characters aren’t speaking English. I see the metaphors as Vasher trying to translate idioms from Nalthisian (?) to Alethi when they can’t. Heck, it’s nearly impossible to do it with languages that developed from the same base. I can imagine Vasher would sound like a madman trying to do it with languages that developed millions of miles apart.
@16 Gepeto
Interesting insights about Adolin. I hope these changes don’t end up doing irrevocable damage to Adolin. He probably has a tough future, but most people on Roshar are facing a bleak situation at the end of WoR. Adolin’s is just looking difficult in more personal ways.
I don’t think Adolin will be fully excluded from councils or other events for not being a Radiant. There’s a case to be made that he could be exiled, but his military and leadership experience are going to be useful in the war.
I can’t really get upset at Renarin for his situation here. His father had the idea that Plate was a good way to protect and help include Renarin in Alethi life. By training him to use Plate, he’s removing a lot of the disadvantages of Renarin’s physical condition and providing a way for his son to get guidance and build confidence. It might not be the most objectively beneficial use of Plate, but we’ve been shown that Renarin has abilities that will be useful in the future. It’s a good idea to build him up so he can be effective.
Re: Zahel. I really hope nothing terrible has happened to Vivenna. We know Nightblood is still around, even if he’s in strange hands, and the only other person he’s really tied to is her. Vivi is probably my favorite character in the Cosmere; I adored her story arc in Warbreaker. He could be talking about having to kill his wife, but that seems a bit too far in the past.
Re. Adolin:
Given the comments and analysis in the previous chapters, and the events that occur in the rest of this book, I am fully expecting Adolin to be broken down in book 3. It’s going to be tough reading for me since I’ve always liked Adolin as a character. Yes he’s got all the attributes of the stereotypical Hero / Golden Boy character, but I feel his POVs have always shown him to have depth and potential under the surface – potential to be a leader like his Father. Plus he’s just a badass warrior.
I think what people see as his blandness is more the product of lighteyed society. He cant form deep relationships with people because from what we’ve seen of lighteyed interaction – Adolin and his friends, the feasts – the lighteyes society is all about political machinations, superficial relationships and small talk. It’s why Shallan is such a breath of fresh air. Revealing too much about yourself means it will be used against you, and its not encouraged anyway. Being the Golden Boy of a superficial society means he’s expected to conform to those norms.
I think that breaking down Adolin in book 3, removing him from his status in this society, will remove him from all these pretenses, and he’s going to develop his real personality and character, for better or worse. I can’t wait to see what happens.
@19
I too worry about Viv and wonder on her whereabouts but I feel pretty certain he is talking about earlier events. No evidence for that belief but it feels right.
thanks Alice, nice how to train your dragon reference. Will you be doing a reread of the Stormlight novella as well?
@18: Perhaps I am not getting the right vibe, but I can’t help thinking the new small group of Radiant will rapidly bond together. Sharing the experience to become the new members of an ancient group known for its magical prowess combined to the fact they have all lived through broken childhood will draw them together, forming a family of sort.
I can see Renarin and Shallan developing a new complicity, despite an abrupt start, as they shared their insights on their common surge.
I can see Renarin and Dalinar being drawn closer by both being Radiants, closer than Dalinar and Adolin ever were. Without having the expectations of being the heir, Renarin will win his father’s soft spot as they will spend more and more time together, bonding.
I can see Dalinar and Kaladin continuing developing their surrogate father/son relationship, both becoming closer than Dalinar and Adolin ever were. Kaladin has all the qualities Dalinar appreciates in Adolin minus the defaults he is annoyed with and whatever defaults Kaladin have aren’t ones Dalinar frowns heavily on.
I can see Kaladin and Renarin forming a big to young brother bond where Kaladin becomes Renarin’s new hero.
I can see Kaladin and Shallan continuing deepening their relationship in various ways…
All in all, I can see the Radiants starting to form a family, a family Adolin would be completely excluded from. Oh they would try to include him, at first, but he wouldn’t understand. He can’t understand: the Nahel bond probably isn’t something you can understand unless you are a Radiant. Therefore, little by little, Adolin would progressively be excluded from their newly form friendship/family bond.
Now, I am not saying this will happen, but I can see it happening. Perhaps all these talks of how both being Radiants will allow Kaladin and Shallan to bond on a more personal level, on a level Adolin can’t have access to as started to get to me. If it is true for them, then shouldn’t it be true for other Radiants as well? In any way, I do think, as sheilagh so nicely put it, losing his Rhysadium more or less equal to Adolin losing his only friend: the one who would have never left him, never judge him, never exclude him.
As for Renarin, as I said, I am aware I am not being entirely fair to him, but I just have a very hard time accepting having Dalinar simply toss away weapons who are worth more than kingdoms just so his son could develop his self-esteem… I know Dalinar is perfectly within his right to do as he wish with his own Shards. I know young Renarin needed to try at being a soldier before perhaps finally accepting it wasn’t for him. I also know having Shards probably was the only way he could have try, but… but couldn’t Renarin, for once, act like an adult and state: “Father, I know I am not currently capable of fulfilling the obligations tied to a Shardbearer and I understand this is a very critical battle. I have thus come forward to ask you to lent my Shards to a most capable soldier. I am sure I can be useful in other ways. There will other battles for me to take part in, once I have finished my training.”?
This being said, I understand I am being unfair, but I do have trouble with this scene. I will keep on trying to understand Renarin better, but he is a very hard character for me. He has his moments where I like him, where I can see the character he may grow into. I certainly love his interactions with his brother, I absolutely love Renarin (please Renarin never forget Adolin is your real brother because he won’t) is those, but those last scenes towards the end of WoR were difficult. I have to admit, when I initially read WoR, I expected Renarin to finally come out of his shell during the ending climax, to see it pan out quite differently has been disappointing. Not disappointing in the sense I disliked the ending, I absolutely loved it, but disappointing in the sense I felt the character missed an occasion to rise up. I am sure there will be others, but combined to the lack of exposure we have from Renarin, it makes it harder, for me, to emphasize with him as much as I should.
21. wingracer
It would be weird for him to kill such an important character off screen, so she’s probably okay. It’s just that the end of the Warbreaker had them working as a trio, and she’s the only one we don’t see. I mean, she could easily be keeping an eye on things back on her world. Give her enough breaths and the passing of time is no longer an issue.
Ohhhhhh man this chapter, it’s such a doozy. I have so many thoughts…But for now I’ll contain myself to the heraldic symbolism.
So Ishar, in general, I actually would attribute mostly to Kaladin and Zahel’s section, and not because Zahel could be Ishar as the theory goes (although it’s not mutually exclusive). Of course part of it is Dalinar talking with the Stormfather – considering one of the last developments in the text, this is just the prelude to Dalinar talking with the Stormfather as something closer to being an equal. Not that Dalinar can talk the old windbag down to his level per se, but from Dalinar we can see that his respect for the entity is tempered with Dalinar’s desire to properly represent his ability to protect…well the world, as a soon-to-be-Bondsmith.
But when it comes to Ishar as representing the attributes or being pious or guiding, as well as the role of priest, that represents what Zahel is doing for Kaladin the most in this chapter. Not that Zahel is a very pious person, and he only feels like a priest in a very nominal sense: but through Kaladin he represents those roles. When Kaladin makes the realization that the king is “Dalinar’s Tien,” he mentions the Almighty (which he only does rarely throughout the books). It’s not Kaladin finding religion of course, but Zahel helped guide him to the point where he made the significant realization of what he wants to do. Which is, amusingly, what the ardentia is supposed to do: this is maybe the only in-book example we’ve properly had of an ardent fulfilling that role in a significant way, even after other sequences where characters have chatted with ardentia about their Callings.
And although it’s stretching it a bit, as a herald of luck, I’d say he most represents what sadly happens in Adolin’s part of the chapter. The voidbringer Listener forms are basically shooting lightning at random since they don’t understand the mechanics behind how it works (which as an aside is a GREAT way to subvert that – how often do you see magical lightning that acts like proper lightning? Sith these voidbringers ARE NOT), and Sureblood suffers from what is basically a poor roll of the dice. Poor magical pony.
Chana I’m less sure about, but I’d say that most stands for Adolin’s chapter. Even though the loss of Sureblood is absolutely devastating for Adolin, he pushes on to attack the voidbringers. NOT for vengeance, not really, but because he realizes as a Shardbearer it’s his duty to help his men by being their battle leader and pushing ahead. So it’s the closest mixture, as Adolin’s brave to press on against forces which murdered Sureblood so (relatively) easily, he’s obedient to Dalinar’s command by being effective as well as to his overall role in the army, and he’s effectively a guard for his men who are much more vulnerable to the lightning and need him to lead the way.
Alright I lied about sticking to just the heraldic sumbolism, I’m not gonna write much more, but I want to touch on Kaladin and Zahel’s scene before I stop for tonight. The advice Zahel gives to Kaladin is really kind of cliché, but it works here because what Kaladin mostly needs from someone is a sounding board. Kaladin, deep down, already knows what he needs to do, but he needs to figure it out emotionally. And while Zahel’s advice certainly isn’t the most innovative, it is honest and simple, as well as coming from a person who…is maybe the closest to understanding Kaladin? Kaladin isn’t as antisocial as Zahel is, but among the cast he’s probably the closest in terms of natural surliness to Kaladin. The scene then concludes in a very trope-tastic way, with Kaladin collapsing in the rain as he finally makes the realization he needs to…but again this works because the important part is that Kaladin finally pushed through to that realization, now how he arrived there.
Because, honestly, the way he arrives there…is kind of wrong logically speaking, but it’s a very valid emotional way to arrive there. Elkohar being Dalinar’s Tien just immediately lets Kaladin emotionally rationalize why he should protect Tien. It’s not even because protecting Elkohar is Kaladin’s job: it’s because Kaladin simply wants to be someone who protects, and in this moment he realizes that’s just not compatible with this action which reminds him of the guy who left Tien to die. It’s…a very Honor way for Kaladin to arrive at this conclusion, and it definitely works for him.
…Also one last short little thing. The chouta joke? Again Kaladin showing, I think, a little self-awareness at how surly he is. Although it probably did still bum him out a little. XD
@5 @6 Sanderson says (in some of his annotations) that every idiomatic phrase would be ‘translated’ into naturalistic English, so we wouldn’t really get a sense of every metaphor used by those on Nalthis. You might feel that’s a bit of a cheat, though.
Then again I don’t think Mistborn really got into the metal-based puns properly until the second trilogy. Maybe the second Warbreaker book will be better about it.
Things are really heating up. Danger, rapid viewpoint-switching, realizations, surprises…I love the feeling of an approaching Sanderson Avalanche, watching the master get into place so he can pull off his grand plan. During most of the book I’m usually trying to figure out what will happen, but when the ending comes along I like to just sit back and watch Sanderson work his magic without trying to spot the wires or guess how he’ll do it.
I really enjoyed Kaladin’s realization about Elhokar being Dalinar’s Tien back when I read it for the first time. I love that internal snick feeling of seeing parallels and things fitting together in a story. Kaladin’s epiphany combines several significant parts of his life – the death of Tien, his relationship with Dalinar, the assassination plan – and unites them as different aspects of his ultimate goal of protecting people. He’s finally seeing how they should align with his central purpose.
This time around his realization also brought to my mind something he says in last week’s chapter. Considering the idea of assassinating Elhokar himself immediately, he thinks that he would be executed “but he found that didn’t bother him. […] He could imagine Dalinar’s anger. Dalinar’s disappointment. Death didn’t bother Kaladin, but failing Dalinar…Storms.” Now he’s realized another way that killing Elhokar would hurt Dalinar, something that he himself is painfully familiar with.
Dalinar saying to Aladar that he’d do “anything” to save Alethkar from the Voidbringers amused me somewhat after many of us have been condemning Taravangian these last few weeks for being willing to do anything to save the human race! However, I think Dalinar and Taravangian mean quite different things. Dalinar’s example of the “anything” he’d do – sacrificing himself and his army – is a personal sacrifice that he has the right to give. He’s the commander; he has the authority to order his men even into a battle that will destroy them all, and they know that. He also tells the army what they’re up against and why they’re fighting this battle in his speech. I doubt all the soldiers freely consented to join the army and obey their commanders (some of them were probably forcibly conscripted, for instance), and that isn’t ideal, but they at least know what’s going on, what the rules are, and what parts they are playing. Taravangian, on the other hand, is sacrificing leaders, kingdoms, and innocent people who are unaware of his goals and who he has no authority over. He’s making few personal sacrifices beyond burdening himself with guilt. Both Dalinar and Taravangian spend lives and use others to save civilization, but Dalinar is willing to make personal sacrifices to try to play by the rules, respect the people involved, and allow them to knowingly participate in the protection of humanity.
I wonder, though, what “miracles” Dalinar was speaking of in his speech to the army. Was he just talking about the Oathgate? Or did he think he’d see other powers, perhaps Shallan’s Surgebinding?
About Zahel: He’s fun to read as always. I wonder if he’s been to the Purelake, though; he makes it sound like he has. If so, why? How come we’ve seen other worldhoppers there, too? Seems like an odd coincidence. I suspect there’s something magical about the Purelake, what with the superstitions about magic fish and the way it drains during highstorms, but surely it can’t be a Shardpool…?
Re: the Ryshadium: There was a recent WoB that they do have some sort of spren bond.
While I’m already poking around in the Theoryland database, Brandon Sanderson also said that we’d find out more about how you get Ryshadium in Oathbringer.
@2 Halien: I can’t remember seeing anything about Odium not wanting to dilute his power…I know he doesn’t want to dilute his Shard, so to speak, by taking up other Shards with different Intents, but I don’t recall his having an issue with creating Splinters.
@@.-@ Braid_Tug: Did Brandon really say he wasn’t much of a horse person?! LOL! My sister and I have been joking for a while that he doesn’t like horses after seeing Vin and Kaladin’s…reservations…towards them.
@9 AndrewHB: Good catch, I hadn’t noticed that. Zahel really does choose to keep breathing: he needs to consume Investiture every once in a while to stay alive.
@16 Gepeto: About Radiants only spending time with or listening to other Radiants…I’ve been wondering if the new Radiants will need to include others in their work to some extent because people won’t quite trust them after the Recreance. Would “normal” Rosharans want to let the Radiants carry on their business behind closed doors and keep their plans secret, when everyone knows that Radiants have already betrayed humanity once? Even if these normal Rosharans wouldn’t have the power to force the Radiants to include them, a decent leader like Dalinar might still want to let them participate somewhat in decision-making just to increase trust.
As for Renarin, I was under the impression that his hesitance to guard Shallan and co isn’t because he doesn’t want to do the work, but because he realizes that he’d probably do a bad job. Particularly because of the difficulties he has using his Shardblade, something Dalinar doesn’t know about. I don’t think Renarin deals with his concerns in the best way – he probably should have just kept his mouth shut and done the best job he could – but I do think he had valid concerns and that they were the main reason why he didn’t want to guard Shallan and co. That’s how I read it, anyways.
@25 FenrirMoridin: Good insights on Kaladin’s realization. It’s one thing to know that you have to do something, but another to see emotionally and intuitively how it fits in the larger picture, and I think that’s what Kaladin does here. And then there’s also the aspect you pointed out, that here Kaladin finds a reason to protect Elhokar that is actually deeply important to him – it’s not just about doing his job, it’s about being a protector. Again, he’s seeing how Elhokar and Dalinar and his job and everything else fall into place under his role of protector. Now he can finally be decisive, determined Kaladin again.
@26 LordNarvi: Sometimes I feel like Sanderson gets too much into the metal puns and other expressions based on magic, and doesn’t include enough other idioms a foreign language would have that aren’t just derived from how their magic works. But oh well, perhaps the magic ones are the only ones interesting enough to include, and they are funny.
@27: To be fair, I do not think Dalinar would purposefully decide to hold his meetings being closed doors nor do I think he would seek to turn away counsel from “ordinary people”. This isn’t his style, so I do not see it happening, not this way. What I see happening though is the Radiants spending more and more time together, informally, because they share something, because they need to share their experience and more importantly because they will better understand each other. By spending more time together, or to say it more accurately, by trying to seek each other’s company more often than not, the Radiants will, unknowingly, exclude people like Adolin. They will have “Radiants only” meetings, this is a certainty, but they will also have other meetings with “ordinary people”, but how long before someone like Adolin starts to feel as if he doesn’t belong? Can he truly watch his family members form a new closed group, a group he isn’t a part of, in all happiness? I doubt so.
And what of Renarin? He is Adolin’s only friend and he is bond to turn his back on his brother. Already, he has started: joining Bridge 4 was a trial at emancipation. He has indeed started forming bonds outside his family and Bridge 4 adore him: they have adopted him as one of them. So here little awkward Renarin has succeeded where Adolin has failed. Now he is a Radiant, he will most likely seek other Radiants company: probably Shallan, at first, despite their negative interaction, after all, they share a surge. Kaladin when he comes back will certainly replace Adolin as Renarin’s number one role model. Finally his father is bond to spend more time with his youngest son now they have something in common.
So to me, either they want it or not, Radiants will, eventually, end up forming a separate group from society. There will be the Radiants and the non Radiants which will be impossible to navigate for someone like Adolin who stands too close to them. They will mingle some with the “ordinary people”, but it is clear to me a separation will happen.
About Rhysadiums, what Brandon indeed allowed to slip was Renarin was bonding a Rhysadium in book 3… It wasn’t said in such explicit terms, but here was the general understanding. It could still be a misinterpretation, but it would fit nicely within the main narrative. It will also serve to push the nail farther into Adolin: all his family will have a Rhysadium, he had his. He is never getting another one. Sadly I sincerely doubt it is possible to be chosen twice. I only hope Kaladin will not get one because there is one thing which really hurts about magic which implies “being chosen” is when the chosen one “doesn’t want it” or worst “just hates it” because standing right next to him is the one who genuinely wanted it but wasn’t chosen. So unless he starts loving horses, please no Rhysadium for Kaladin.
As for Kaladin, well, I never really liked how he linked Elhokar to Tien… Tien was a defenseless boy who was helpless. Elhokar is a grown man and hardly defenseless. To me the comparison does not hold and I hate the idea of Elhokar truly being Dalinar’s Tien. It just hurts to think it in such terms.
@26: The use of metal idioms in era 1 vs era 2, I believe is a very deliberate choice. And it also shows an evolution of him as a writer and world builder. In Era 1, legal metal burning was limited to the nobles. The nobles treated it as a more secretive and hidden matter. Many nobles did not want you to know if they were an allomancer or not.
Now in Era 2, metal burning and allomancy are common. They are part of everyday life. Twin-borns are rare, but the allomancers are everywhere. Thus the culture has shifted and the language has grown to highlight this fact.
Much like we have the “Just Sayin’” segment for the SA – we could do the same with all of Brandon’s works. His early works have a more limited use of idioms to reflect the cultures. But he’s growing as a writer, so I would expect the use of idioms to grown. And it’s something I love about his writing.
@28: Renarin is trying to learn how to be a soldier – just like his brother had to learn, but at a much younger age. Going to Bridge 4 to learn is the opposite of “turning his back on Adolin”. Going there to learn, is a form of imitation / hero worship of his brother. Renarin is a shy guy trying to learn other social patterns. To be accept as a person, not the Blackthorn’s disappointing son.
I personally think that if when, the truth of Sadas death is discovered, Renarin will support Adolin in any and every way possible.
Re: Kaladin & Radiants – He left at the end of WoR. I think he’s going to be spending at least half of book 3 – hundreds of miles away from the core cast.
@27: Yes he has said it several times. :-D Mostly in relation to writing WoT. He warned Team Jordan they would have to watch him with the horses. Jordan was a horse guy – Brandon knows he is not. Which is one of the reasons I think he likes to write societies that are more Renaissance to early Industrial in technology. A slight less dependence upon horses.
They must be speaking English. Otherwise, how can Brandon write jokes using specific enunciation of English words, like “in-sluts” or “ass sass?”
@31 Excellent translators. If the pun doesn’t work in English, they come up with something similar to capture the same flavor of wordplay.
28. Gepeto – “As for Kaladin, well, I never really liked how he linked Elhokar to Tien… Tien was a defenseless boy who was helpless. Elhokar is a grown man and hardly defenseless. To me the comparison does not hold and I hate the idea of Elhokar truly being Dalinar’s Tien. It just hurts to think it in such terms.”
In my opinion, the parallel between Elhokar and Tien is not that they are defenseless.
Kaladin promised to protect Tien, Tien is a horrible soldier, and according to his captain, the only asset Tien could be was to get killed to slow the advance of soldiers.
Dalinar promised to protect Elhokar, Elhokar is a horrible king, and according to the assassins, the only asset Elhokar can be is to die so that Dalinar can be king.
These are the parallels that came to Kaladin’s mind when he said that Elhokar is Dalinar’s Tien … “turn a liability into an asset.”
@30: Perhaps I have a different reading of the Bridge 4 scene, but to me I felt it was Renarin’s way to seek belonging. It also becomes obvious he is happier whenever he is around them as opposed to being around his family. Perhaps it is he feels he can be useful in Bridge 4 while his family only serves to remind him how disabled he is… If we look closely at Renarin in both books, he has been drifting away from Adolin, slowly, but irrevocably. Back in WoK, they were always together. Early on in WoR, they also were together but as the story unfolds, Renarin spends less and less time with Adolin, but more and more with Bridge 4. There are no brother/brother interactions passed the 4 on 1 duel while, back in WoK, they would always talk, even if for a short period. Maybe I a not reading it right, but I do feel as if Renarin indeed is moving away from Adolin, not trying to get closer. Perhaps he needs it, perhaps he needs distance to grow and he does seem to improve from his time with Bridge 4, but the downside is Adolin has lost his only friend.
I have long thought Renarin would support Adolin, but what if he doesn’t? What if supporting Adolin goes against his oaths, whatever they may be? Or what if Adolin, quite predictably, reacts quite badly to him having visions of the future and it steers Renarin away even further? Can Adolin manage to keep his relationships with his family intact now they are something he will never, in most probability, ever be?
It seems clear to me they will suffer from this and I am not sure the gap in between him and them will ever be filled. Cordial relationships completely devoid of affection nor love seem to be the best he can hope for now. This new world is not for him, he’ll never belong. He belonged to the old world.
As for Kaladin, I’d argue we do not know how long he will be from the main group. As far as we can tell, it could be he will be back in Part 3 or 4. I will simply not assume, for now, he won’t be around. In fact, it strikes to me he has to be around if only to help the love triangle develop.
@33: I guess it is simply I have a soft spot for Tien but a hard one for Elhokar. For my perspective, he should be able to defend himself, had he not been drunk, yet again. The idea Elhokar has to be protected at all cost is not setting well in my head, but I understand it was Kaladin’s duty and he perhaps needed the parallel to do it.
Gepeto @@@@@ 34 – What made you think that Renarin is not happy when he is with his family? Please give me an actual example showing that he is unhappy when he is with Adolin.
@35: I don’t mean he is unhappy with his family, but he seems happier with Bridge 4. I have unfortunately lent both my books to a colleague, but wasn’t he smiling and happy when they were walking on the Plains and he was pretending to lift the bridge? Someone perhaps could check it to confirm I am not hallucinating anything (which may be happening we never know). He wasn’t riding with his family then, he decided to walk with Bridge 4. For me, this was a defining moment for his character. He purposefully chose to be with Bridge 4 as opposed to be with his family: in a similar scene back in WoK, Renarin was riding with Adolin. Now he isn’t.
Maybe I am wrong with all this, but I have noticed how little interaction there were in between the brothers once pass Part 3. It id very unlike WoK and each time they could have interact, Renarin was not available, busy he was being with Bridge 4. Adolin is basically doing what he has always been doing: it is Renarin who has changed.
Part of being a soldier is integration into a whole that you didn’t belong to before. It is a totally different thing being a soldier as opposed to being around them. Renarin has been around soldiers all his life, one a legend and another growing to being one. He of all people knows that divide. Him joining Bridge 4, his attempts to become a soldier, they read to me as someone trying to bridge the gap between him and those he cares about most in the world. The key thing to remember though is that he is still training, he’s not there yet. He needs that distance while he learns what he is capable of and who he is; he’s doing that with Bridge 4 because his father’s army is too familiar with him to accept him and/or challenge him. By doing this he is actually strengthening his relationship with Adolin. YMMV.
EvilMonkey @37 – thank you! You explained it best. :-)
Then I perhaps have a very different reading because I don’t feel Renarin is getting closer to Adolin: I feel he is moving away from him. Truth to be told, they are all moving away from Adolin: becoming Radiants will do this. It will isolate them from the “ordinary people”. I somehow doubt Radiants ever married with non-Radiants.
Becoming Radient is a different question. It wouldn’t be a bad assumption to believe Radients would become a people apart if not for a few factors. One, the drift Gepeto is seeing doesn’t happen immediately, generally it takes a couple generations for that type of separation to take root. Wartime may accelerate the process but it still won’t be instantaneous. Next, the Radients we have seen so far are only the harbingers. There will be an explosion of people gaining powers with the Desolation upon the world of Roshar. Our POV characters may well become the leaders of their respective a orders but it would be unreasonable and unrealistic to believe that they would be the only members of their orders. Then there is the question of squires, people associated with their knight and thus gain a bit of their powers. Knights are gonna need followers, their followers will be normal otherwise, it will be nigh impossible to isolate themselves from the world when they’re dragging around, interacting, leading non-Radients into battle. If Adolin feels like he won’t belong in a Military order it will be because he chooses to seperate from them, not because he is being excluded. There’s an apocalypse going on; a man of his skills will be needed, he will have work to do. He might not be satisfied with the role he will eventually have to play, but unless Brandon has a Fall-Redemption type arc planned for him, one where he goes evil instead of just falling upon hard times, he will excel in his role.
And as for Radients marrying only other Radients, there will be many Radients but I imagine not an entire planetfull. There will be spouses out there who are not superpowered; the pool of applicants will be much too small for Radients to only date each other. In fact, I kinda see many Radients preferring to not marry other Radients. Who wants to talk about the Job all the time?
Gepeto @@@@@ 39 – I don’t understand where you are coming from. Renarin does not have enough screentime for your interpretation to hold water. How can you say that Renarin is turning away from Adolin when the few times he was on screen half of it is to support Adolin. Before the 4-1 duel, he went through the ritual with Adolin of making sure he has everything. When Renarin asked Adolin if he has their mother’s beads was the time when Adolin realized he did not have it.
When Adolin was losing the duel, he went out to the arena without plate and only his shardblade with him. Which of course he could not use because he was already on his way to be a Radiant and he could hear the scream.
Then after Adolin won, he went to see Adolin and Kaladin. Renarin was the one who put spheres in Adolin’s plate so that he could take it off.
what more demonstration of brotherly love do you want from Renarin? That time, he was already training with Bridge 4. And yet he was still willing to give up his life for his brother.
as for the march to the Shattered Plains. Well Renarin cannot ride with Adolin since Adolin was riding with Shallan. Who wants to be a third wheel? It is love for his brother that Renarin does not want to be a third wheel.
Again, please give me concrete example of Renarin turning away from Adolin, then I will believe what you are saying. That said, let us just agree to disagree for now
Evil Monkey @@@@@ 40
Hmm… That is an interesting thought. Adolin as Darth Vader. That will be a good one. Brandon can do a better Anakin Skywalker/ Darth Vader than George Lucas did in chapters 1-3 of the Star Wars saga. George Lucas did not do very well in the transformation. But I am not gonna go there. This is not a Star Wars forum.
Honestly the heel-turn is about the best way for Adolin to get screentime if he isn’t going to be a Radient. And how awesome and heartwrenching would it be if Odium’s Champion turns out to be Adolin and he has to fight Kaladin as Honor’s Champion? That’s a pet theory of mine btw. Not at all sure if that will happen but I can see the path towards that very easily.
@16 – Interesting comments. I have maintained that a vast number of our characters have been under a lot of stress, and disagree with singling Adolin out in this case. I took your suggestion and searched my IBook e-version of Words of Radiance to see how often the word “nervous” appears. According to my search, it shows up 43 times and is associated the most with Shallan (17 times). It is associated with Adolin 4 times, the same number of times it is associated with Gaz. I am unsure why you found this noteworthy, or supportive of your point; if there were a strong correlation between the mention of “nervous” and the amount of stress a character is suffering from, then it could be argued that Shallan is suffering from four times more stress than Adolin (and that Adolin and Gaz are equally stressed out, which would be weird). I state again: all of our heroes are under a tremendous amount of stress and are doing their best –in their own individual ways- to cope with it.
As for Sureblood’s death being powerful and symbolic, I don’t necessarily disagree that it was important and powerful to Adolin; but I have doubts about its overall symbolism. Adolin’s mother’s locket has been demonstrated as having more symbolic importance to Adolin then Sureblood. Additionally, Sureblood is not often mentioned in the Stormlight Archives (I think 3 scenes in WoK and 4 in WoR), so it’s not like Brandon has been hitting us over the head with Sureblood’s presence or importance. Actually, it could be argued that Adolin’s Shardplate (and Adolin, inside of it) being severely beaten and almost demolished by a Surgebinder is more symbolic of Adolin’s place in “a new world where Radiants are back” then the loss of his horse.
Sureblood’s death’s impact on Adolin was sad, but it wasn’t the world shifting event in these pages; the summoning of the Everstorm and the rediscovery of Urithuru was. The direct and indirect effects and impacts of those 2 events will be more instrumental in the vulnerability and fragile state of mind that ultimately leads to Adolin killing Sadeas then the loss of Sureblood. (Sureblood is not mentioned at all when Adolin snaps; but Sadeas taking Urithuru and other discoveries from Adolin’s father is mentioned right before Adolin grabs Sadeas by the throat.) Also, Adolin’s snapping is linked to him being “completely, totally and irrevocably enraged,” according to the book.
@20 – I could see Adolin breaking down in Oathbringer; he did just kill a Highprince in cold blood. That is probably one of the highest crimes there is in Alethi society, assumedly right below regicide. If he is called to account for his actions, he will get the opportunity (and presumably, the on-screen time) to show his mettle in dealing with the related consequences. I for one can’t wait to see how Adolin continues to grow.
@24 – Since Vasher is a returned and is very long-lived, are we sure that Vivienna didn’t just die from old age some time ago? I’m not sure of the cosmere timeline, but maybe the events of Warbreaker were several decades (or even more) ago?
@25 – Clever point about a member of the ardentia helping guide Kaladin to make that realization. Nice observation. I also like your associating Adolin with Chana, via Adolin demonstrating his bravery by pushing on to do his duty despite the crushing loss of his horse. Adolin continues to demonstrate the strong qualities of a strong leader and good character.
@27 – Nice comparison/contrast between Dalinar and Taravangian regarding doing “anything” to stop the Voidbringers. Good to observe the difference in the type of leader each one is, and how they treat their people and resources in order to achieve the greater good.
@28 – An interesting contrast between the Radiants/non-Radiants interactions you project would be the existing one of Shardbearers and non-Shardbearers. We rarely saw Shardbearers holding exclusive meetings or only congregate with one another (aside from duels, I guess). Should we assume Radiants will now do so? Actually, this will be another interesting development to Adolin: he will go from being a “have” to a “have-not.” It can be rather eye-opening to see life from two drastically different perspectives; I am intrigued to see how Adolin (and we as Adolin fans) handles it. On similar lines, Renarin may now also be perceiving things from a different perspective (bonding a spren, and all) and I think the reader may want to give him the benefit of the doubt as well, until proven otherwise. Both brothers have been strong supporters of one another through the highs and lows; no need to assume that will automatically change just because their circumstances have.
@30 – I also agree that Renarin will support Adolin. Renarin has always been one of Adolin’s biggest fans and I don’t see Renarin making such a drastic change in his personality (unless he’s negatively influenced by his bond with his spren) that will lead him to not support his brother.
@33 – Nice parallels between Tien and Elhokar there. There is enough there for the reader to see why Kaladin would perceive Elhokar as Dalinar’s Tien.
@36 – Neither Adolin nor Renarin are “doing what (they have) always been doing;” both have changed from WoK to WoR. Adolin is dueling for Shards and courting a fiancé. Renarin is training with Bridge 4 and training with his new Shards. This may be part of why the brothers don’t interact as much (although there is clearly overlap, Renarin and Adolin still do their pre-duel tradition).
@37 – I agree. Both Renarin and Adolin are growing as individuals. That does not necessarily mean they are growing apart, nor does it mean they will not always have the same close bond they have always had. Let’s wait and see what develops.
@43 – Although I could see Adolin turning “to the Dark Side” as a possibility, I am really hoping that is not the direction that Brandon chooses to take. I feel that Adolin has more to offer than either joining the Radiants right away or ultimately joining Odium’s side. Brandon has so many ways he could take Adolin; I can’t wait to read what he does.
@40: I certainly think Radients will be set apart rather quickly: after all didn’t Brandon promised us a blossom of Radients starting next book? It won’t be long before their number increases enough for them to make an exclusive group. As you say, they won’t be the only members of their orders, there will be squires, so even more people associate to the Radiants.
Personally I do think Adolin will feel exclude due to his specific situation: how many people in the whole world will suffer seeing their entire family being made Radiants, but himself? Man his skill may be needed, but it is heartbreaking he now has nothing else to hope for but death, because quite sincerely, Adolin will not survive a Desolation. He will never get married because no women will ever choose him (he isn’t Kaladin which means he will never get chosen by anyone: what he has to offer doesn’t please people), he will never have children (even if he married, he will not live long enough): he has nothing to look forward too. Were he not forced to live so close to the Radiants, he may live with the hopeless belief it may not turn out this way, but he knows. He knows because he is close to them.
This being said, I do not see Adolin becoming evil. I see him becoming disillusioned, losing all hopes into having a future for himself an ultimately wasting his life for the benefit of the Radiants, but I do not see him going evil.
For the rest, I’d say there were several thousands of Radiants: plenty to choose from. Also, most readers have argued it was impossible for “non-broken” people to develop a romantic relationship with a “broken Radiant” as the “ordinary person” cannot understand, not even in a lifetime the struggles a Radiant had to go through (thus making the struggles all “normal people” go through completely insignificant as we all know Radiants suffered more, anyone else cannot possibly have hardships worth mentioning.). To me it seems impossible. Radiants will always considered themselves as superior, superior because they were “chosen” and because “they have suffered”. Can they possibly have empathy enough to sympathize with spouses who haven’t been chosen? Can a Radiant truly considered hardships their spouses would meet worth mentioning when they had to live through much worst? To me, it seems impossible. There is a chasm in between Radiants an ordinary people which cannot be bridged.
@41: I agree with everything you are saying in this post, but you are referring to events prior to the 4 on 1 duel. My point was after the 4 on 1 duel, Renarin is not seen spending any time with Adolin, but he is seen spending time with Bridge 4. Does it mean he didn’t spend time with Adolin? No, but the author chose to not tell us about it which makes me think Renarin is indeed moving away from Adolin. Probably not by choice or not consciously, but it is clear to me Adolin’s family is ripe to move into the new world while he is not ready: he may never be ready. If only he weren’t related to all of the new Radiants, things would be different, but how it stands, I do not see it ending well for him.
@42: Well, I hate it. Evil Adolin would go against everything the character has ever stood for so to see him going evil would be terribly OOC for me.
@43: Adolin is not going to get more screen time if he becomes evil: he has never been planned to be in this story. So whatever Brandon has planned, it doesn’t involved Adolin becoming evil as I am quite sure who are the main antagonists has been planned from day 1. I would also hate to have Adolin fight Kaladin because quite seriously we all know how it is going to end: Kaladin wins. Te me, this is horribly boring, so anything but this.
@44: I find this noteworthy because Adolin is the one to be seen having a nervous tic, he is the one who is describing nervous related illness and he is the one who acts irrationally because of stress: not Shallan. As I said before, not all people react the same way to stress. Take two different people, dip them into stressful situations and one may feel it worst than the other. In other words, Shallan may feel stress, but it does not impair her physical health nor her judgment, but it does with Adolin. This is the point I am trying to pass across and it is supported by him feeling stomach aches back in WoK when he thought his father was abducting the princedom to him, it is supported by him having to summon and dismiss his Blade because this is how nervous thinking his father made the glyphs on the wall made him feel, it is also supported by his reaction after Szeth’s first attack. These are direct and obvious manifestation of reactions to stress which we do not see in other characters such as Shallan. Again, she may feel stress, but it does not impair her. It impairs Adolin and it isn’t just stress, it is anxiety or the fear of what is to come. To me it is so picture clear, it is hard to explain why others are not seeing it. Adolin is stressed out and anxious just as Kaladin is depressed. To be fair, I never got Kaladin was depressed until it was explained by Brandon, so Adolin may be another case. I am not a depressed individual, but I am a stressed out one: perhaps it is why I hung up more of those small elements just as other readers hung up on Kaladin being depressed. When I read Adolin, I read stress: so many of his reactions to events are practically identical to my owns and I know them to exist because I am too stressed-out and anxious. Feeble argument as it is, I still maintain my point on Adolin being a rather vulnerable individual to stress, be it real or imaginary.
As for the symbolism, mother’s locket is not part of the imagery surrounding Adolin: it has nothing to do with him being Prince Charming. It isn’t part of the trope and therefore its lost does not bring any foreshadowing other than the 4 on 1 duel will go bad. The horse however is part of the imagery: he is white, strong and magical. This is part of the trope used to described Adolin, so its lost means something bad is going to happen.
Adolin snapping is most likely linked to a natural phenomenon where human beings go into red rage when triggered badly. I made a comment on it last week. His snapping has nothing to do with Sureblood’s death (I never said it was), but everything to do with a natural response to stressful situations: ever heard of road rage? It happens to Adolin right here and there. While Sureblood death is not a contributor, it still contributed to make him more prone to loose it: much like you are less prone to be patient with your children’s tantrums if you were stuck in traffic right before. It isn’t the traffic’s fault, but it contributes. However, depending on your lifestyle this may sound completely alien to you, but it is my everyday life. Stress, stress, stress and more stress so each time I see it, it blinks in big bright red letters.
Bravery is about facing one’s fear: what fear did Adolin face in arguing to go on despite Sureblood’s death? His fears, he has not addressed yet which is why I do not read Adolin as a particularly outstandingly brave character: other character are being braver then him in the story.
Shardbearers is not the same as Radiants: to be a Shardbearer, you only need to be high ranked enough to have inherited a set: nothing to be acclaimed for. Being a Radiant is about a 1000000000000000 times more impressive: not only you have to be chosen, but you have extraordinary powers and oaths to follow which makes you a superior human being. Ordinary people can’t even dream of competing with Radiants, if they could, they would be Radiants themselves. To me, it is obvious non-Radiants will not be included within the selected group of Radiant unless they are needed to die for their unity.
As for Renarin and Adolin, I’d say Adolin has not been doing anything out of the ordinary. Yes he was courting Shallan, but he has been courting a different women every two weeks for the past 6 years: where is the difference? The difference is Renarin now found a group he prefers hanging around with than his brother. I also worry as to how supportive he can truly be now he is a Radiant: Radiants have suffered, normal people haven’t. So can they understand?
Ok, Radients have suffered and they are the elites of Rosharian society, or at least they probably will be. In regards to romance that matters not at all. At the end of the day, The Knights Radient is a Military. One with superpowers but at heart still servicemembers. While there are many servicemembers that are married or dating each other, the vast majority are not. One reason? Children. A Radient becomes pregnant and now they are out of the fight at a time when every single super is needed to combat Voudbringers. Someone has to mind the fort and care for the next generation of would-be Radients while the Knights are at war. Another reason? Do you really think there will be no emerging Radients who don’t already have families? Will they put them aside for their spren and the endless war? Family gives a fighting person a reason not to fight but to try to survive the fighting, a reason to come home again instead of going berzerker. Another reason? It’s not necessary to have a mate understand what you’ve been through (though it is nice), it is essential for that mate to love you no matter what you’ve been through. There will be normal people that will have Radient mates, there is no questioning that. Dalinar isn’t leaving Navani, wouldn’t have left Shhhhhh had she lived, no matter how superpowered he becomes. His life as a Radient is just that, he is allowed to have a part of his life the war does not touch. In fact it is essential for his sanity. It is the same for many servicemembers; they are not machines.
I say again, Adolin has a place in SA. He isn’t getting as big a piece as many of us may want but he will not be wasted. That being said, if he gets excluded from the main players it will be because he excludes himself. Dalinar loves his son and even if he did not he recognizes Adolin’s worth as a soldier and commander and a trustworthy sounding board. Dalinar would not throw him away. Renarin is as loyal a brother to Adolin as could be written. He jumped into a life and death battle to try to save his brother despite being untrained amongst masters because he could not accept his brother being in danger while he did nothing. He will never abandon his bro. Everything he has done since SA began has been an attempt to become strong enough to fight at Adolin’s side. He is one of Kaladin’s only friends in the world. One he can speak with as a near equal. Kaladin is the type of guy who is slow to form relationships because the bonds he forms are lifetime ones. He ain’t abandoning Adolin either. Adolin walks away first if there’s walking away to be done.
@45
Also, most readers have argued it was impossible for “non-broken” people to develop a romantic relationship with a “broken Radiant” as the “ordinary person” cannot understand, not even in a lifetime the struggles a Radiant had to go through (thus making the struggles all “normal people” go through completely insignificant as we all know Radiants suffered more, anyone else cannot possibly have hardships worth mentioning.). To me it seems impossible. Radiants will always considered themselves as superior, superior because they were “chosen” and because “they have suffered”. Can they possibly have empathy enough to sympathize with spouses who haven’t been chosen? Can a Radiant truly considered hardships their spouses would meet worth mentioning when they had to live through much worst? To me, it seems impossible. There is a chasm in between Radiants an ordinary people which cannot be bridged.
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more. Otherwise, there would be many lonely veterans. People with PTSD are the analog for Radients in our world. Are they doomed to love only other people who have dealt with trauma? Of course not. Love surpasses understanding.
@@@@@ Gepeto: … I really don’t know how to respond to your posts at 45 & 46.
???!!!! What the Hell???
He’s a prince. Just because the magic users are back, does not mean all social orders are going to break down. Nor does it mean that all civil control will be turned over to the Knight’s Radiants.
What you are talking about is melodrama. Brandon does not write melodrama. See a statement below.
Writing Excuses podcast: The Magical 1% Link is to the transcript, but you can listen too.
Maybe these misunderstandings are a result of a cultural difference.
The world Brandon has built is going to look at the Voidbringers and the Knight’s Raditants with almost equal fear and confusion. Yes, some will hope to be chosen, many will not want to be chosen. Nor will they want much to do with those who are chosen.
You are making so many predictions for the fate of Adolin and everyone else that are such a remote odds of happening… I’m wondering if we are reading the same books.
The Adolin I read, is a confident leader & fighter, a loving brother and son, who knows how to laugh at himself and roll with changes. The signs of a very well adjusted person. His responses to Shallan powers were pretty *%&# laid back. “Another one? Can you fly too?”
Can we return the focus to the text at hand? Not on speculation of the next book?
Because what Adolin and everyone else is dealing with right now, is pretty awesome.
He’s getting revenge for Sureblood – right then.
He’s aware that his suite was made for this job – he’s gonna do it.
His actions help rally all the other men around him.
That is a leader. No magical spren required.
@31, 32: I have to admit that dwelling too much on a pun like that does tend to jerk me out of the story, even if there’s a good explanation for it. But the worst “translation moment” for me was this bit:
I know in my head that Sanderson was just “translating” whatever Rosharan measure Shallan used into the American standard, but…gah. It really threw me for a moment. Actually, I probably reacted a bit like Adolin.
@45 Gepeto: Erm…when have we said that it is impossible for an “ordinary” person to understand and thus love a “broken” Radiant? Many people on this forum have even argued that two “broken” people would drag each other down. I’ve probably said in the past that Kaladin understands Shallan better than Adolin does, but that’s because of the specific situations we’ve seen in which Kaladin gets Shallan and then the specific situations where Adolin doesn’t as much. I certainly didn’t mean to generalize that every broken Radiant would be understood better by another “broken” person than by a “normal” person, or that a normal person could never understand them. And I brought up Kaladin and Shallan’s understanding in the first place because I think it’s merely relevant to their relationship – I don’t intend to say that such an understanding is absolutely necessary for any successful romantic relationship. It’s one aspect that may be significant. So please, don’t feel that I’m dismissing an “ordinary” person’s experience as meaningless or inferior compared to a Radiant’s…
At any rate, I have to disagree that Adolin would never get chosen by anyone because he isn’t like Kaladin. Maybe Shallan won’t choose him, but she is just one woman. Maybe all the other ladies he’s dated didn’t choose him, but they didn’t have a chance to do so in the first place. I don’t think there’s any evidence that he’s an entirely hopeless case, and there’s quite a bit of evidence that he’d make a very good husband that a sensible woman could be interested in.
I also hesitate to generalize that all Radiants will consider themselves superior to non-Radiants…I’m sure some will, but every single one unable to empathize with non-chosen ones because s/he believes their hardships aren’t worth mentioning? That would make for some pretty terrible Radiants.
Anyways, I’m saying all this not because I want to disagree with you, but because I believe the situation isn’t as bad as it sounds like you think it is. Adolin is definitely in for a tough time. But I doubt he’s going to get separated from all his family and friends and left entirely lonely without hope of any companionship or romance.
On a different subject…Why does Pattern start buzzing as the Everstorm picks up? I’d think that it’s just a reaction to Voidbringing, but then he also buzzed during a highstorm back while Shallan was in the Frostlands. “Pattern had started buzzing in the middle of the storm— a strange, angry sound. After that, he’d ranted in a language she didn’t understand” (ch 24). Is he reacting to the same thing both times? If so, what is it? Was there Voidbringer/Odium activity going on in the Frostlands?
@47: Not all Radiants are military: in fact the majority of them weren’t military. They are in every sphere of society likely occupying the most important positions. Now the Radiants are back and with the rebellion brewing in Kholinar, order will be disbanded. It is only a matter of time before it happens.
You also seem to forget at least half of the Radiants are women, so if getting pregnant prevents them from taking required action (and I disagree it would as most Radiants aren’t soldiers), then why would this fact of life make them more prone to marry non-Radiant? It strikes to me as the opposite as understanding a Radiant probably is near impossible not to mention they likely enjoy longer life (it has been speculated not confirmed though), they can heal: can you truly have a relationship with a “normal person” when you have so many advantages to other one will never tap into? Add to the lot the fact Radiants are the beings who have the higher ground when it comes to suffering, so how can they ever be supportive enough for their spouse? Doesn’t all people deserve someone who will try to understand them? If I take your PTSD example, can a former soldier being traumatized by seeing his friends die in a bombing somewhere manage to feel empathy towards his/her spouse who has trouble at work? Who feels stressed out because the schedule is hard to manage or because he/she feels under-appreciated at the work place or any of those true real life issues “ordinary people” have? Can the former soldier experiencing PTSD, who struggles every day to overcome his issues, find in him/herself the strength to actually care for those insignificant hardships (because they are insignificant when compared to PTSD)? Does everyone deserve an ear for their problems even if bigger ones exist? Love maybe surpasses all hardships, but love erodes with time and when day to day life settles in, can the couple find a common understanding or will everything always be about the PTSD veteran? Now I, of course, have absolutely no relevant life experience in the matter, but I have to wonder. Can it really really work? And what kind of human beings do you need to be to make it work? I can see a lot of reasons why such union would be very difficult to maintain.
@49: Somehow being a prince is unlikely to matter in the new world: everything will change. Order, ranks, everything and Adolin is a murderer, so why is it his rank will be enough? Enough for what? It won’t change a thing over the fact his entire family are Radiants.
Is it melodrama? I dunno, I am not sure what melodrama is, so huh I can’t truly say. This being said, it doesn’t look like the story will end well for Adolin unless the character either goes OOC or onto a Static Arc which would make him OOC, IMHO. Or maybe the author has something else, but if I pilled up all the various comments on Adolin is many threads it basically summarizes as either he’ll go on a Static Arc, on a Fall to Evil Arc or something we cannot truly speculate on.
I also have to wonder too if we read the same book and you read Adolin as a confident, easy to adapt to changes individual… His initial reaction to Shallan was to act confident because Adolin always shows confidence to other people, but whenever we are in his head, he doubts. The second we got his thoughts after learning the truth, he isn’t fine with it, he isn’t laid back at all about it. The POV you refer too was Shallan, so to Shallan this is how Adolin sounds, but in his head, it is quite different. So I truly cannot say how it is possible to read him as confident when he downright tells us he isn’t: he just doesn’t like to show it. Does not mean it isn’t there. As for the easy to adapt, where did you get that? Each time something changes, he is the one who reacts badly: the visions, the countdown, Urithiru. Nobody reacts badly but him, so how is it he adapts easily? It is quite the opposite. He hates change, he doesn’t want change and he certainly does not want this change.
My whole point have always been simply because he is normal does not mean he is perfect, because this is basically how some talk make him sound: confident, leader, strong, easy to adapt. He sounds like a rock who will just laugh it up through the Desolation not caring whatsoever about anything because nothing can get to him: such human beings simply just do not exist. And what about his last thoughts: “What did it make of him?” Was this confidence? Or what about WoK where he states: “He likes to act confident, especially for Renarin’s benefit, but inside the wasn’t so confident”. Or how about chapter 14 where he downright tell us he doubts in his ability to carry on his father’s plan? How is it he is supposed to be this emotionless rock built of over-confidence when he tells us this merely is a facade? So huh, I disagree about this bout. I disagree with Adolin being all smiles and happiness despite all that is happening around him because he is just so perfect nothing can get to him emotionally. This is how some posts make him sound and while I perhaps I pushing too far in one direction, those posts are pushing too far in the other one, but YMMV.
As for the text at hand, Adolin is a leader, but the story has made it clear Kaladin was the superior leader. It could be Adolin will remain a military leader through out the rest of the series. In fact, it is highly possible even if horribly boring, IMHO. Nothing is more boring to me than the Static Arc, but YMMV.
For my part, the bout I thought was interesting in this chapter was Renarin, because it gives us some additional insight pertaining his Plate, Dalinar and everything.
@50: I apologize, I did not mean to say commentators on this thread said such things, you guys are a great bunch, but I have seen this argument being made over and over and over again. Each time the shipping discussions comes back, a lot of people (and I am tempted to say the majority across the fandom though necessarily here, it feels like the majority to me, but I do not have hard numbers to back it up) end up saying Adolin is basically ruled out because him not being broken implies he will never be able to understand Shallan. How may times has it been said? As a result, I am starting to think nobody can understand a Radiant but another Radiant, so if having lived similar experience is a requirement to develop a meaningful relationships, Adolin is doomed in advance.
This being said, I was absolutely not targeting you or anyone on this re-read. I was targeting the large majority of other people who engage in such discussions on other forums. You have never implied such thing and your rational for preferring Kaladin/Shallan has always been sound and reflected.
My point is if what feels like the majority of readers are right about this aspect of the story, then “ordinary people” will never understand Radiants. I also hate having to read the Radiants as people who needs to be understand… what about everyone else? My reaction also have a lot to do with myself thinking there is nothing worst in life than being robbed of your right to have hardships because whatever life throws at you, you always have this person standing right next to you who had it worst. To me, this is the worst of fate: to never have justification and validation for your feelings because your sibling, your friend, your family members have such terrible past your petty anguish are not even worth mentioning. It also goes back to Kaladin who can’t like Shallan until he finds out about her past…. I… This is strange, but couldn’t we say Kaladin only starts to appreciate Shallan because she has suffered enough for him to think she may be a worthy human being? What does it tell us of Radiants? In the case of Kaladin, can he have any sympathy for people who have not suffered enough when compared to him? Because the chasm scene can make it sound as if, hence I worry.
I am feeling very hopeless for Adolin: all women have rejected him and while he is to blame for it, the fact remains nobody loved him enough to try to stick to him despite his attitude. Gee, real-life is filled out with girls sticking out with terrible guys who treats them badly just because, so how is it nobody stick to Adolin despite him pilling on mistakes over mistakes? Every single eligible young woman in Alethkar have rejected him. The only prospects left for him are the young teenager who will turn 16 in the short term, but gee the age difference makes it very creepy to me. Already, I think the age difference between Adolin and Shallan is too big, so huh, no teenagers. If not Shallan then who? If there anyone left which would genuinely choose him? I feel at times as if Adolin has herpes or something for people to just not want to either be his girlfriend or even his friend… To boot it up, no sprens chose him either. We know the sprens have heavily investigated the Kholin family due to their prime position in the up-coming conflict: they chose Dalinar, Renarin and Jasnah. They are investigating Elhokar and while they may still reject him, they still thought he was worth investigating, but Adolin, they just weren’t interested. So basically everyone simply looked at him and say: “No.”.
I do worry the Radiants will have a hard time emphasizing with regular people once they realize there are others like them and I do worry someone like Adolin will end up completely isolated from everyone. Gee, he has virtually no friend, nobody who cares for him but his family who have more important things to worry about. I fail to see how things could ever light up for him. I also fail to see how someone could live a happy life in such circumstances. Could you be happy while entertaining superficial relationships? Could you truly still feel as a part of the family when they all are part of a new organization of super-heroes? We talked how of terrible it must have been for Renarin to grow up in a family of warriors while not being able to be one himself, so how can it be for Adolin to keep on living in a family of Radiants setting up standard he cannot ever meet as it is completely out of his control? How can the reason Renarin is so broken not impact Adolin? It would take a very, very, very rare being to be fine with it, to strive despite it and to find happiness despite it and even then, I wouldn’t buy it. Nobody can endure such circumstances for a lifetime, so either Adolin needs to find himself another life, thousand of miles away from them or agrees to sacrifice his own happiness in the name of duty. Either it just sounds terrible.
Edit: What is to say the Radiants are the good guys? Sure they are a requirement to fight the Desolation, but if they changed into something undesirable afterwards? What if they ended up so self-centered on themselves, their hardships, they became blind to other people’s plights, setting themselves apart? What if the hate normal people have for them took its root right there? Into their attitude of “I suffered more than you, so shut up” (which we definitely see, a bit with Kaladin, but let’s imagine it gets carried on by thousands of Radiants)? What if their “higher moral ground” became impossible to live with? And who’s to say having a family member becoming a Radiant was not a small-scale tragedy? What is to say those family members, those who are left being, lived well with it?
What is to say Taravangian is not right to be wary of Radiants? What if the Radiants of old weren’t, despite all of their glorious oaths, nice people?
Just a few food for thought.
@Gepeto,
I have been in the US Army for 18 years, have been to Iraq 3 times, I have a mild form of PTSD and count many of my friends as sufferers of the same disease in one severity or another. I tell you this to say I do have the relevant life experience that you lack. I have not forgotten that nearly half of the Knights Radient are women and many Radients are in non-combat roles. That actually makes the Knights look more like a modern military than any military organization on Roshar, only with superpowers substituting for technology. Some of those roles won’t be as affected by pregnancy as others but it is an issue that pops up and it will be interesting how they deal with it. As for having a spouse who does not suffer from PTSD being able to understand someone who has it, there are some of us who think as you predict, people who dismiss the problems regular people have because they don’t measure up to our experiences, but we get counseled against that sort of behavior, we are taught to not treat problems on a sliding scale with our hardships on top and everyone else’s below. We are taught that it ain’t a contest, that people are affected by problems in different ways.
As far as love eroding, look, the non-Radient spouse will never understand everything but they will understand enough. Just like the Radient will never fully understand what the spouse who stayed home had to deal with, staying strong and maintaining while the Knight is at war, coping with the fear that their beloved may never come home. And while its true that in the real world military personnel have a higher divorce rate than the general populace it is far from impossible for love to bloom and sustain between military and non-military people. In fact, with the presence of spren, I see it as more likely for Radients to be able to make it work with normals and less likely to work with other Radients. They will have their own spiritual counselor riding their shoulder, telling them when they’re being an ass. But how likely is love to bloom if, like Kaladin and Shallan, their spren are on opposing sides of the diagram?
As far as Adolin goes, I’m kinda done trying to inject hope for his character to the fandom. Those that have Adolin as a favorite are probably in for a bit of disappointment. I trust in Brandon to make the ride for us a fun one but others aren’t so sure they will like the direction Brandon takes him. Well I for one wont be preaching hope anymore. I maintain that of all the paths Adolin can take, The Fall is the one that gives him the most screentime, the Ascendant King is the one that gives him the least. Him staying with Shallan, hiding his insecurities behind a mask of confidence will diminish an awesome character. Gepeto, you say you don’t see him going evil but do see him getting disallusioned. I say that disallusionment is often what pushes characters in complex stories like SA to go the dark route. If you want an in-world example, look no further than Teravingian. He is so disallusioned by the state of humanity in the face of a coming Desolation that he goes to have a chat with the Nightwatcher. Now he’s doing some really evil shyt in service to his goal of uniting humanity and surviving the apocalypse. For my 2 cents, if Adolin’s future is as bleek as you fortell then what reason will he have of remaining in the good guy column?
Something that just occurred to me about relationships between Radiants and non-Radiants…perhaps we can draw a parallel here to Vin and Elend from the original Mistborn trilogy. (spoilers whited out) Vin is a very powerful magic user who went through much trauma in her early life; Elend has no powers and had a generally comfortable childhood. (Yes, he becomes Mistborn eventually, but virtually all their relationship’s development happens before then; they decided to get married well before he gains those powers.) Sanderson does portray some issues they have because of their different backgrounds and experiences – Vin’s struggles with trust in WoA, primarily – but they work through them. On the whole, Sanderson certainly seems to think that they have a good relationship. It only lasts for maybe two years, but those are two hard years with a lot of stress involved, and all indications are that it would have lasted longer if they’d stayed alive.
And I should note that Vin specifically chooses Elend over somebody else who has her powers, understands her past, and shares much of her psychology (Zane). Or she could’ve developed a romantic attachment to Kelsier, who was also more similar to her in powers and trauma than Elend. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more parallels there are. There are certainly differences in the nature of Mistborn and Radiant powers, the way they’re regarded in society, the organization around them, &c, but perhaps there’s a relevant comparison to be made there.
Lift has oaths that make sure she must care about other people. Shallan uses her powers to help other people improve. How should powers like theirs make them care less about other people?
@52: Wow thank you for sharing your very relevant life experience: this is exactly the kind of testimony I needed. As I have said, I have absolutely no relevant life experience with dealing with the issues a Radiant/non-Radiant union would undoubtedly meet. I ended having the discussion with my partner during lunch, comparing both of our thoughts on the matter. My partner was less clean-cut then I was, saying any union can potentially work and while all unions have hardships, those such an union would have to navigate through would probably be bigger. Not everyone would be able to deal with them, but there are people who certainly would.
I have no doubt modern day individuals suffering from PTSD have counseling and I am relieved not putting everyone hardships on a scale to determine who’s had it worst is actually broached. I must admit this one was used very often on myself saying how hardships I may have were irrelevant because others had it worst. Without going into the details, this may be why I am so touchy about it. It relieves me to know, though, counseling does not prone it even if I understand it may be difficult for individuals to actually apply it.
I certainly do not think hardships is a contest as to who suffered more than who, though I sometimes feel as if SA wants us, the readers, tot think it is, not in real-life mind, but in-world. Of course, they have no such thing as counseling, but I have seen this attitude, to a certain extend, in Kaladin. I had wonder if he would be capable to start an union with someone who hasn’t suffered enough, on his personal scale: he truly sounded like an individual who perhaps needed this deepened understanding to be happy in a relationship. It gives credence to many argumentation saying Shallan could understand Kaladin better. The reverse however is not clear: I cannot say what Shallan’s take would be on it, but having to deal with his wife having murdered her family may be too much for someone like Adolin. I would also fear he would completely forgot himself, in such an union, living to make his wife happy, but not caring about his own happiness which is the kind of behavior which can perhaps last a time, a long time even, but it always ends up by blowing up. Eventually.
I agree the sprens adds an added complexity where we are left wondering if two Radiants can love each other if their sprens are of opposite orders and antipathetic towards one another. This, we have yet to see which is why I never use this argument: we don’t know enough about it. Despite this , fantasy world or no, human nature is human nature and the difficulties, for both partners, will meet to develop a strong and healthy relationship when one of them is horribly broken while the other one if the cherish prince of a wealthy house remains a forever relevant topic of conversation. We can extrapolate based on our own understanding of how humans can potentially deal with it depending on how we read them. It is not so different than real-life unions, only the context differs.
As for the sprens acting as counselors, I would say can the sprens end up understanding human natures enough to even be able to play this role? So far, the sprens have been very focused on their knight growth and very little on other people, so can they even feel something akin to care to the spouse of their knight?
I agree it would be interesting to see how Radiants deal with pregnancy. I do not think Brandon has ever wrote a pregnant character, so huh it could be interesting. I certainly do not think Shallan or Jasnah’s Radiant functions would be incompatible with pregnancy and child-caring considering wealthy Alethi probably don’t even raise their own young, giving them to nurses to raise in their place much like it used to be the case for nobility. It’s be great thought to read one female character who disagrees with this.
I do not mean to sound so hopeless, but being too optimistic is dangerous: it once was very optimistic and it only caused disappointment. I’d rather plan for the worst which will make me more appreciative of whatever truly happens. In both of your examples, I certainly agree the Fall would give Adolin more screen time than the Ascendant King, not to mention the Ascendant King has to be the most boring arc for him. As I said, I refer to it as a Static Arc: an arc by which the character does not evolve remaining the last on the last page as he was on the first page. All stories have static characters, for instances Max in Codex Alera is a pretty static character, but they don’t typically make up for interesting reads. In SA, I would say Navani will probably remain a static character: her POV serving to give an occasional view while giving us, the readers, information on fabrials and technology. It makes her interesting to read, but character development wise, she is pretty static which is fine as she does not strike me as a character who needs growth to remain relevant. For me, the Ascendant King or any story arcs where Adolin basically remains a military leader, undisturbed by all that is happening around him, surfing in the new world as if it was a no bother is static because this is basically where you thought the character would go in WoK (the supportive, good and dutiful son who would take over the princedom in time and do well because his father taught him well). It doesn’t offer any growth, which makes it less interesting to read. He could keep on serving as a foil to Dalinar and as a “non-magical POV” many readers wish to maintain, thus giving him a usefulness in the story, but those who love Adolin tend not to love him for such secondary uses. Also, a static character works better if he has no POV or very little POV. Adolin has had too many POV to be an interesting static character, but YMMV on this one. I agree him staying with Shallan and being all smiles, further ignoring the issues he has confide in us, the readers, would certainly diminish the character, but perhaps the story does not need Adolin to be much more than the supportive one, the ever ready boy-scout who is there to support all the Radiants, never having issues of him own or if he does, they are so insignificant compared to others, they aren’t broached or impairing.
I so see him getting disillusioned as, to me, it would take a very rare human being not to grow disillusioned considering his personal situation. Can it be enough for evil to take root? I personally think evil needs something to fester on, to grow on. Taravangian’s desires to safeguard humanity combined to his lack of empathy is used against him: I do not see the same ploy working with Adolin. The only evil route I could see Adolin walk on is the one where he runs away, refusing to take part into the upcoming conflict and thus depriving the Radiants from his usefulness on the battlefield. This is not truly evil, but he wouldn’t be doing any good either. Anyway, Adolin as a military tool to be used by the Radiants is a very bleak future for his character, but it may be the only he has in this story. The obstacles he has to surmount in order to earn the cool potential story arcs his character could get seem… insurmountable.
@53: Yes but hasn’t Elend been beaten on a regular basis by his father in order to harvest out Mistborn powers? Wasn’t he completely despised by his father for not being the son he wanted? This is not equivalent to Vin’s traumatic childhood, but it makes him “more” than your average perfect prince such as Adolin is being presented to us.
I agree thought Vin and Elend worked their issues, but they were different people and magic works differently over there. On Roshar, you aren’t born with magic powers, you being granted magic powers based on your worth. Wouldn’t it be hard for a “normal person” to live with a Radiant knowing they have been awarded something you were refused? Do not the Nahel bond serve a constant reminder one is “more worthy and thus superior” to the other because sprens chose him/her? How hard would it be for a “normal individual” to ignore this?
In the case of Vin/Elend, Elend is not bothered by Vin’s Mistborn status because it is completely out of his hands: you are either born with it or without it. But you aren’t born a Radiant, you become one, so to me it makes a difference I am not sure how various people can deal with.
@54: Not care less, but dismissive, a bit like we see Kaladin behaving in WoR. He only feels sympathetic towards those having had hardships which is why the Tien link was important to him: it made Elhokar worthy of his protection, even if he still hates the guy.
Shallan and Lift oaths certainly do not serve to make them careless, I do agree, especially for Lift, but is being helpful the same as understanding? Let’s take Shallan for instances, yes she strives to make people be better, but she does not do it with everyone: she does it on wreck of people, broken people. It all goes back to being broken. What has she done for an unbroken person? Would she even want to do it on someone who appears perfect? It is all very philosophical… but I can see why it would be difficult to navigate through all this. I can also see how Radiants such as Dalinar and Kaladin may end up having trouble dealing with “ordinary people”. It is safe to assume though not all Radiants would have the same behavior, but still it has me wondering.
This will be a huge Wall of Text warning, continuing my discussion about Adolin. Please feel free to skip if you are tired of reading the back and forth.
Gepeto@46 – Wow, you and I differ so much. Let’s take your points one by one, shall we.
1. Adolin and stress: Obviously people react differently to stimuli, and some feel anxiety/nerves/stress moreso than others. But I disagree with your dismissal of stress playing a role on anyone other than Adolin, and I categorically reject your implication that stress is so debilitating on Adolin that he’s not in control of nor responsible for his actions.
Also, your claim that stress does not impair Shallan’s physical health or judgement has been demonstrated false over and over again. I encourage you to do the same search for “nervous” that you suggested we do in your post @16 and look at the 17 times its associated with Shallan. Her physical health, mental health and judgment are impaired in multiple ways (her mental block of what happened to her in her childhood is the easiest example of her stressed mind, but stress also impacts her drawing, her ability to use her powers to the best that she can, her decision making, her remembering to conceal her photographic memory from the Ghostbloods and the Alethi, etc). Other characters who are demonstrably impaired mentally/physically by stress include: Kaladin, Dalinar, Jasnah, Renarin, Elhokar and even Gaz (who, to your earlier suggestion @16, is associated with the word “nervous” as many times as Adolin is in WoR, for whatever that’s worth). Your point that only Adolin has his physical health or judgement impaired is disproven by the text over and over again.
Even with that, the assertion that your making -Adolin being especially impacted by his stress- carries with it the implication that this stress is so debilitating on Adolin that he’s not in control of nor responsible for his actions. That things are happening to him or forced upon him; and that he is not choosing to do so or that he is not fully accountable for his actions. I reject this type of thinking, because it takes away Adolin’s sense of agency. This is what I meant when I said that I disagree with any point or argument that presents Adolin as a victim of circumstance; or as someone who is so weak minded that he doesn’t make decisions based on what he thinks is best but only goes along with what someone else tells him to do. Adolin exercises his sense of agency; he chooses to guard Dalinar, to fight Szeth and to kill Sadeas.
2. Adolin and Symbolism: As somewhat of an aside, maybe we could revisit Adolin fitting the “Prince Charming trope.” First, even if you choose to buy into that trope, the magical white horse is not what is most associated with that trope. Prince Charming has the magic kiss (if you’re referencing Snow White or Sleeping Beauty), or the magic slipper (if you’re going with Cinderella). Second: It may not be the best fit. The trope Brandon is dismantling that is text book Adolin? “The Knight in Shining Armor” trope. (Just as Brandon could be using Shallan to dismantle the “Damsel in Distress” trope, where she has often been her own savior and saved the kingdom as well, but that’s another aside.) He’s chivalrous, honorable, saves the day with his two handed magic sword and is the best Knight in the world; and Brandon continuously displays Adolin as having those traits, before pivoting to a more realistic (and interesting) character.
Again, if you’re looking for a symbolic representation of him being surpassed by the Knights Radiant, it’s when Adolin literally has his Shining Armor beaten off of him by a Surgebinder. I’d argue that’s a larger symbolic action then him losing his horse.
3. Adolin’s snapping: In one line you claim that his snapping had nothing to do with Sureblood’s death, two sentences later you contradict yourself by stating the death is indirectly caused by his mind being placed in a stressed state (therefore, it does have something to do with it). Your post @16 called Surgeblood’s death a “strong blow,” and associates it with Adolin descending into his downward arc. Either you are drawing a causal link between the 2 events or you’re not; which one is it? As for your lifestyle versus mine: we don’t know each other at all and you have no idea of the impact of stress and anxiety on my daily life. Even if stress heavily impacts your life in a certain way, that does not make you the expert in detecting how it may manifest in or impact others. I don’t claim to be an expert either; I am merely suggesting that stress is a tricky topic to discuss and it is difficult to assert that stress has hit one character harder than another when each character has shown their share of struggles, as well as their efforts to overcome those struggles.
4. Adolin and bravery: Wait. Are you actually suggesting that Adolin isn’t brave? Adolin??!! The guy who rushed over a bridge and towards his father (and father’s assassin) instead of running out of harm’s way? The guy who charged the Parshendi after they killed his horse with a bolt of lightning and then rallied his troops to press on? The guy who confronted Szeth over and over again (and got defeated over and over again), even though Szeth had magic powers and was known to easily dispatch Shardbearers on his way to killing kings? That is an incredibly bold statement. Please clarify your position and give examples that support your opinion; don’t just give me conjecture.
5. Shardbearers and Radiants: My compare/contrast was to show that Alethkar already had an elite and exclusive group of people in their society (Shardbearers), and there was little to no evidence that those people had exclusive meetings or would only congregate with one another. My point had nothing to do with whether its harder to become a Radiant or a Shardbearer (we don’t know enough about how one becomes a Radiant, so there’s no way to actually tell which is harder). There is significant in-book evidence that shows that all of the elite of Alethi society (whether those elite are Shardbearers or not) congregate together often. There is significant evidence that shows that high level meetings are held by the king and the 10 highprinces whether they have magical abilities (Shardbearers in the past, projected to be Surgebinders in the future) or if they do not. The quality of a Shardbearer vs the quality of a Radiant is irrelevant to my point; the existence of an elite group and that group’s major strategy meetings (that have been open to all highprinces) and events (that have been open to most high ranking light eyes) was and continues to be my point. Your conjecture is not based on any in-book fact or evidence, and therefore it is not “obvious” as you put it. Please give in-book examples that support your opinion, not just conjecture.
6. Renarin and Adolin: I already demonstrated how Adolin and Renarin have changed from WoK to WoR. Adolin is engaged in duels for Shards (something he wasn’t doing before) and is courting his fiancé, who he is into far more than any other girl he may have dated. Another thing Adolin does, that I didn’t previously mention? He incarcerates himself for as long as Kaladin is incarcerated, post 4-on-1 duel. Both Adolin and Renarin have grown from WoK to WoR; just because you don’t choose to acknowledge the differences doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Once again, your stance is not actually based on the in-book evidence.
I also seriously reject and strongly disagree with the assertion “Radiants have suffered, normal people haven’t.” That statement has absolutely no in-book, factual basis whatsoever; I have no idea where an opinion like this could come from and question whether we have read the same books. I could provide a long list of non-Radiants who have suffered in the books, but I would end up listing at least 90% of the characters in the book.
Again, I disagree with this perception that almost every main character is better off than Adolin; that no one will understand him or be there for him, and that his entire family will leave him to wallow in misery and that he is hopeless. This does a major disservice to Adolin, and ultimately, to Brandon as well.
@56: We may have to agree to disagree as I seriously do not think we could meet in the middle. It probably is my fault for falling at making my point come across and I take full responsibility for not being able to state my mind in a better way. The way I see it though is you and I only are exacerbating each other and it leaves room for an unpleasant discussion. I will nonetheless give more insights on several of your points because I feel my words are not coming across as I intend them to.
1. As I have said stress is not felt in every single individual the same way and I personally do not read Shallan’s mind blocking syndrome as a stress related issue, but something else. In this case, I may be wrong as I never claimed to be an expert on stress. However, when I read Adolin, I read stress and I read it does impair his judgment much more than it does Shallan. My examples: the nervous tic, the anguish in the stomach, the sweaty palms, all the talks about falling, his reaction to the first Szeth encounter. These all are direct manifestation of stress which did impair his judgment. It does not mean he has no agency (where did I say that BTW?) or he is a victim (I believe I drop a wall of text on this one lately), it simply means he is more susceptible to stress than say Kaladin or Dalinar. It does not prevent other characters from feeling it, but no other character have seen their life impacted by it, If you consider Shallan’s ordeal as being linked to stress as opposed to trauma, then yes it would be the case for her, but I have not seen her have any erratic actions in WoR based on stress. What actions has she done which are directly caused by stress? Adolin has the nervous tick, talks about stomach pains, his obviously nervous about many things, he reacted harshly to meeting Szeth and to boot it all, he kills Sadeas. What did Shallan do in WoR which can even begin to compare in the department of stress?
2. Knight in the Shining Armor also is one way to read Adolin and I doubt Brandon was going for a distinctive trope when he wrote he character. This being said I disagree Adolin saves the day: he doesn’t. Kaladin saves the day over and over again so what day did Adolin save? Sure he won the battle on his Plateau, but this is the ONLY win we have seen him have unless you consider the meaningless duels he was in a win. As for the 4 on 1 duel, it was more Kaladin’s win than his own.
3. What I said is Sureblood’s death contributed to his deteriorated mental state which later lead him to kill Sadeas. It isn’t the cause: he didn’t kill Sadeas because Sureblood died, but the fact Sureblood did die add up to his emotional plate. I could link in several real life example as to how it works, but people would probably dismiss the argument and call me crazy, so I won’t. My whole point is an event can help fill up the inner cup without being the decisive factor to the end game. Sureblood’s death falls within this.
4. Bravery isn’t about combat. I believe you are making the same mistake most readers do: because someone is willing to face foes, he is brave. It isn’t brave if you aren’t afraid of dying or being hurt. Bravery, by definition, is about facing one’s fears. So again, what fear did he face so bravely? What is Adolin is afraid of? He is afraid of the future, of making a decision with respect to his own future (such as choosing a wife), of harm going towards his family if he isn’t there to defend them. When did he face any of those fears in book? Never. I hasn’t happen yet. In this essence, Adolin is not braver than anyone else on the cast: he just comes across as brave because battles do not scare him.
5. My evidence is conjuncture, I believe whatever this means, I am unsure about the meaning of the word. There is no in-book evidence, but based on what the Radiants represent, I felt it was a valid assumption.
6. Adolin has been dueling for Shards prior to the Vengeance Pact: this is nothing new. He has been courting girls seriously as well as evidenced by him being previously engaged: so again nothing new under the sun. My point has been there are NO brother to brother interaction AFTER the 4 on 1 duel. None. Draw which line you wish to draw, but for my part I did notice Renarin walking with Bridge 4 and being friends with them when before, in a similar scene, he would have ridden with Adolin.
Radiants have been broken beyond reparable. The examples are Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Renarin, Jasnah, Lift, etc. Their sufferance bear no comparison possible to struggles “other people” have. My point is everyone, EVERYONE has something they struggle with which impairs them. My problem is these are considered insignificant when compared to the Radiants because their hardship are beyond what is possible to imagine. My point was not to say “nobody else has suffered”, but to say “nobody else has suffered enough to be deemed worthy by a spren and thus by the Radiant”. My example, look at Kaladin who keeps on comparing hardship. Yes he is one man but when the Radiants numbers start to grow, how many more Kalafin will there be?
This being said, since I have no idea what point you are trying to pass across, we may have to agree to disagree. I am sincerely not sure which point of view you are trying to defend. Mine has never changed: I personally do not believe Adolin is a perfect as some readers try to make him be, I do not believe he is as strong as he tries to make us think, I do not think he is as unaffected by events as others seem to make him be and I do think he has a vulnerability which is different than the one we have found in other characters. Since you seem to believe I am utterly wrong in every single one of my posts, than our positions are probably not compatible. I thus agree to disagree with you until the author prove one of us wrong.
I have no bad feeling towards you or anyone would may agree with you, I simply believe both our position are currently incompatible.
Gepeto @@@@@ all your posts – Quite frankly, I don’t know where you are getting all what you are claiming. To quote someone here, there are no in-book examples that I can see. I have asked you already to give me real examples of what you are claiming, but you cannot give me even one.
I am not being sarcastic. I really just want to know where you are coming from. You have all these wall of text which really does not say anything in terms of proof.
For a self-confessed Adolin fan, all you have been doing in the discussion for this chapter is shot him down. You call Adolin all names putting him down every which way you could. To you, Adolin is not good enough for anything. That is what I have been reading from all of what you have written.
Perhaps it is cultural differences between the two of us that we cannot see eye to eye. As Americans we have a tradition of leaving home when we turn 18. Some of us leave to go to college, some of us leave to join the military, some of leave and get jobs. The reason is because at 18, we are considered adults and truly bad form if we continue to stay at home. Of course, there are exceptions, but in general, most Americans leave home at 18.
When we do that, it does not mean that we are unhappy with our parents or our siblings. Or that we are growing away from them. We call it GROWING UP. We still love our parents and our siblings. We are still close to them. Its just that we don’t live in the same house with them.
So for me, not seeing Renarin and Adolin together does not mean they are growing away from each other. They are just GROWING UP. It does not mean they are turning their backs from each other. They are just GROWING UP.
But to you, it is a cardinal sin that Adolin and Renarin have not been seen together after the 4-1 duel, that Renarin is with Bridge 4 while Adolin is with Shallan, who happens to be his fiancee. There is nothing in this picture that says the brothers are growing apart. They are just doing their own thing.
As for your claim that no woman wanted Adolin, that no one will choose him, that Adolin is indecisive because he cannot choose a wife. Where did you get that idea? There’s nothing in the book that says it. In fact, when I asked Brandon about Adolin’s habit of serial dating, his answer was because Adolin is young.
Now for a real life example – Prince Harry at 31 is still unmarried and has had several girlfriends. I believe he is not engaged to anyone because Buckingham Palace has not made any announcement. ‘
If I follow your logic about Adolin and apply it to Prince Harry, then no woman wants Prince Harry because he has failed all his relationships. From where I’m sitting, I find that concept very silly.
I can go on and on. But I guess until you give me proof positive for what you are claining, I will just quit replying to any of your posts because quite frankly, without any proof in-book or WoB, then what you are saying does not hold water.
Ok I had to skim a few posts due to the giant walls of text I just don’t have time to read but here are some of my thoughts.
Radiant or not, Adolin is still one of the most lethal people on the planet as long as he has his blade and plate. He is also a capable and respected leader of an army and the heir of a powerful family. How can such a person ever be excluded from military matters? That would be like a tank commander completely ignoring the infantry. Bad things happen if you do that.
I can’t see Adolin ever going evil. That doesn’t mean there can’t be dark times ahead for him though. His actions will have repercussions. I suspect he will have to make some very difficult moral choices in the future and he will get some of them wrong but that doesn’t make him evil, just like Kaladin’s bad choices (for example, allowing Moash to proceed with the plan to kill Elohkar) weren’t evil. Now that I think about it, this could open up the possibility for him being excluded by being exiled or forced to run. That could make for a great story if he had to make his own way for a while, make some good and some terribly bad choices only to find a sort of redemption and a triumphant (or perhaps bittersweet) return. So no, I don’t see a Vader arc for him. Possibly a Kaladin arc though.
I don’t see Shallan rejecting him just because he isn’t a radiant. It might be a problem for him but not for her. I also don’t think his killing of Sadeas would bother her too much. The social repercussions of that action could very well be a problem for her though. Still I think if there is only one person on the planet that would understand and accept his actions, it would be Shallan. In a strange and twisted sort of way, I could even see them bonding more closely over this.
@58: I had a response for your very abrupt post which I have chosen not to post. It wasn’t it was not appropriate, I believe it was polite enough, but it was only serving in further exacerbating the current mood. Since I am guilty of spoiling it in the first place, I have decided not to add more oil to the fire.
Also, there is nothing I can say which would help pass my point which I haven’t already said in quite lengthy posts at that. I gave you the evidence you claimed was missing but it obviously was not sufficient. This is fine, we can agree to disagree until further evidence becomes available, no ill-feelings on my part.
I wish I could better explain where I come from so perhaps others would actually understand better my perspective, but from my personal experience opening-up about those things never ends well. I have yet to find true understanding or sympathy: individual hardships should be rate on a scale from one to ten, but truth is they always are. It is not intentional nor do I blame people, but it is how it is.
@59: What is a Kaladin arc you would see for Adolin? This one got me confused.
Gepeto @57 asked: What is Adolin afraid of? Gepeto also opined: “Bravery, by definition, is about facing one’s fears. So again, what fear did he face so bravely?”
IMO, I believe that Adolin was afraid that he could not meet the expectations that Adolin believed that others expected of him. In particular, Adolin believed he was not a worthy successor. I believe that Adolin believes he must be better than his father: the legendary Blackthorn. Whereas Dalinar did x, Adolin believes he must do x +1. When the Blackthorn was younger, the was a conqueror. I have the impression that Dalinar was the warrior and Galivar was more of the leader. If that is the truth (or at least the in world mythos that grew from House Kholin’s consolidation of Alethkar), the Adolin believes he has to live up the the legacy of Dalinar. In Adolin’s mind, he fears he has failed. Where Dalinar conquered the Alethi and helped unify Alethkar into a central monarchy (rather than a cabal of Highprinces), Adolin could not lead his House’s soldiers to victory against the Pareshendi. He lost the battle at the Tower.
Further, as the “champion” of House Kholin, he fears he could not properly protect his family in general, and his father in particular. Both at the Battle of the Tower and whenever Szeth attacked Dalinar, Adolin was helpless. Worse (in Adolin’s) mind, Dalinar was saved by a lowly Darkeyes. A person who had neither Shardplate or a Shardbalde. Throughout the course of WoR, Adolin is forced to accept that this Darkeyes is better able to protect Dalinar than Adolin is. With respect to Kaladin, Adolin eventually accepts the fact that Adoli must need Kaladin’s help in protecting Dalinar / defeating Szeth. As Gepeto defines bravery, Adolin meets his fear in learning to trust Kaladin and he will need Kaladin’s help. With respect to Szeth, Adolin faces his fear in that in a one on one fight with Szeth, Adolin believes he cannot defeat Szeth. Yet after Dalinar’s apparent death, he feels honor bound to at least try — even if it means Adolin’s likely death. IMO, the way Adolin accepts the Kaladin and Szeth situations is facing Adolin’s fear. That is a sign of bravery.
Finally, Adolin fears that he is not the son/man that Dalinar believed him to be. Adolin faces this fear when he fights, and ultimately kills, Sadeas. By your definition, he has acted bravely as he has confronted his own fear.
Re the drifting apart of Adolin and Renarin, some of that drifting (if it is in fact drifting rather than simply growing up as Sheiglagh @58 suggests) could be because of Renarin. He fails that something weird is happening to him (his bonding and ability to see the future). The latter is “mortal sin” in the view of Vorin religion. Renarin might view himself as not worthy of being a member of the Lighteye ruling class. Therefore, he feels he must spend more of his time with the Darkeye former slaves of Bridge 4.
(I do not believe the above paragraph. I think the simplest explanation is best. Renarin is spending more time with Bridge 4 because Renarin believes this is the best was (given his medical condition) that Renarin can learn to be a soldier with the common troops — as Adolin did many years earlier.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
A lot of excellent stuff has been said about Adolin – I’d just like to add that regardless of personal sympathy and empathy towards his personality, his character can’t be viewed in isolation, without taking the situation around him into account. He is living during a veritable apocalypse and is one of the very few fortunate people who has the means to realistically affect it’s outcome, to actively fight for the better future and see the grand picture, the results of his actions. Yes, even if he never develops a Nahel bond! For one thing, he seems to be the only one with the chops to become a general among the younger generation.
Dalinar won’t be around forever, and even while he is, as a Bondsmith he now has other duties, which are going to take precedence. Kaladin, while bright and capable of military thinking, is very much a frontline fighter, somebody who is always going to jump in personally and put out fires, etc., not a man to determine strategy and make an army run, etc. Yes, such a development for Adolin – becoming the overall military commander of the Alethi/humanity, wouldn’t be surprising. But it doesn’t mean that it can’t be great – not everything has to be a twist. Ditto him as Ascendant King.
And given the Desolation, things like the fear that Adolin is going to “waste his life propping the Radiants” (paraphrased) make no sense to me. They are battling extinction! Doing so and morever doing it on the level that Adolin would be able to, could never be a waste! Not when considered logically, IMHO.
Not to mention that I strongly suspect that the fallout of Adolin’s murder of Sadeas could bring him and Shallan together and motivate her to open up to him and confide in him, because she won’t feel on a completely different plain from him experience and morality-wise anymore.
And yes, Kaladin judges people by the extent of their suffering, but that has been very much demonstrated to be his personal flaw! I very much doubt the rest of the Radiants are going to share it. In fact, neither Dalinar nor Shallan do.
As to Renarin, I suspect that he had been preoccupied with the fears that he was going mad/becoming a Voidbinder against his will and attempted to deal with his problems on his own, without burdening his family even further. Hence his joining Bridge 4. And he also didn’t want to intrude on Adolin’s and Shallan’s courtship.
And now, for something completely different – Zahel/Vasher as ex-Herald Ishar! Personally, I managed to miss all the hints of Zahel being Vasher the first time around, but I immediately suspected him of being Ishar, after seeing other ex-Heralds running around/being referenced as still among the living. There was just something off about him, and, of course his interactions with Kaladin are somewhat priestly.
And Vasher also always struck me as somewhat odd for a Returned. Like, how he said that he remembered living as a drab. Sure, it was eventually revealed that the Returned can suppress some of their divine manifestations, but to such a degree? Even before I started to read Stormlight Archive, it struck me as somewhat unconvincing and a bit of a plot hole. And there were other things about him that seemed off, which I don’t really remember now. And what did Warbreaker the Peaceful try to accomplish? Unite the squabbling countries. Etc. Gotta run, more later.
@61: I would like to point I am not self-defining bravery, I am merely using the text book definition of bravery which is about facing difficult situation without fears. Going from there we can try at extrapolating towards what it means to individuals. I once made the argument to be brave you needed to exempt of fears which other people pointed out was wrong: you can’t be brave if you have no fear. Therefore, it isn’t so much the actions which makes someone brave, but the ability to take action despite an underlining fear.
In general, I agree with most of your text. Where I think we disagree is where you state facing Szeth on a 1 on 1 combat is a fear Adolin has faced. I disagree because to me Adolin isn’t afraid of facing Szeth, so to speak, he isn’t afraid of trying at a hopeless fight, he is afraid his failure would mean death for someone he cares for, in this case his father. Has he truly face this fear as you suggest in this combat? I believe the evidence is not entirely clear because Adolin’s own POV does not speak of any fear: even as Szeth is about to slay him, he has no fear, but he has regrets as dying means having failed Dalinar. To me, it isn’t a direct confrontation of fears, but by saying this I know full well I will catch more ire from other commentators.
Facing fears, for Adolin, would be saying to Shallan (or any other woman providing she does not turn out to be the one): “I love you, marry me.”. This would be bravery, because he is deeply afraid of this.
Killing Sadeas is not about facing fears: he basically has no control over himself then, so let alone the conscious thought to actually be brave. Bravery with respect to this scene would be admitting the truth to Dalinar, thus admitting he has failed as a son, as a successor, as an heir. When Adolin does this, then I will say it was very brave indeed.
This being said, to me the problem I have with linking Adolin too closely to bravery is I do not get the feeling he has faced what he truly fears, deep down. Rushing into battles is only akin to bravery if one is deeply afraid of fighting: it has been broached often enough in literature or movies where characters being afraid to go to war are often depicted. Adolin isn’t afraid of warfare or he was previously was afraid of it, we were not privy to it.
Another example of bravery we see in book is Kaladin finally admitting he was a Radiant or him telling Dalinar about Amaram. He was deeply afraid of opening-up about his true nature and the betrayal as he feared the consequences: he faced those fears.
Bravery, as a whole, is a difficult one: some will argue simply putting oneself into difficult situations is enough to be considered brave. I would argue we need to consider how difficult those situations were to the given characters. Another example, Renarin admitting he was a Radiant: he was shaking out of fear while saying it, so he was indeed braving this fear, far more than any fears Adolin may have tackled. Why? Because in the case of Kaladin and Renarin, it is a direct confrontation of a clear and define fear while in the examples listed above, it is an oblique one which is highly subject to interpretation. Was Adolin afraid of fighting Szeth or was it afraid of the outcome shall he prove unworthy? Is the acceptation of Kaladin’s valor a sign of bravery or is he merely taking the means to ensure his worst fear does not come to life?
In my reading, true bravery would be having coming to terms with issues who truly paralyses him such as the reasons behind his incapacity to develop meaningful relationships (which Brandon has confirmed was important for his character) and facing Dalinar’s disappointment in him. In both case, it may happen in the next book, but I haven’t seen it yet in this one. What I have seen though is the built-up of a character which previously was not much more than a blank canvas.
@62: Your optimist is great to read. I admit Adolin simply becoming yet another military general sounds horribly boring from my perspective. You are right in saying their may be twist, but since I cannot envision this twist it remains a boring avenue for a character I love. I am also not found of military fiction, so to read Adolin being more or less confine into this role sounds twice more boring.
That’s a lot of boring, but it feels so static. Adolin already is a general, so huh, to see him remain such doesn’t sound very interesting. It would be akin to saying Kaladin will remain a bodyguard until the end of SA because nobody else can currently do it better than him. I am sure nobody who loves Kaladin yearn for this kind of arc…
I had a lot of things to say about the “growing up” in bright capitalized letters yesterday, but I have decided against posting it. I’ll simply say “growing up” or “drifting away” often implies dropping friendships to the benefit of others, but in some cases, the one who is left behind(the friend you drop) may end up the sore loser. I for one lost all my friends through adult years: they were too busy “growing up” and “drifting away” to be bothered with a former friendship tied in to the “old world”: nobody else came to replace them because I am notoriously bad at making friends. To me then, Renarin’s actions may not have panned into much, yet, but I do see the potential for my fears to happen, shall the author will it, of course.
My thoughts on Adolin’s future is actually BETWEEN the two prevailing opinions. On one hand I don’t see him going full Darth Vader. I DO see him becoming disillusioned and worried about his place in the world that he goes pretty close to the brink before he manages to pull himself back.
Got to this week’s post very late. Super-busy at work.
Frankly, I skipped most of the longer posts here, but I get the gist of them are about predictions for Adolin’s future. I’ll just add this: If you want to make a realistic guess about what choices a person will make, look at what they truly value. For Adolin, I don’t think there can be any doubt that he truly values his family.
He starts out concerned about what people think of his father, and much his arc in the WoK seems related to his love for his family, and trying to protect them. Much of WoR is spent trying to protect his father from the Assassin in White.
I think it’s safe to say that Adolin will likely spend book 3 trying to protect whoever he considers to be his family. Shallan, perhaps? And his murder of Sadeas will likely have a huge part of his character development (and may become interwoven by his desire to protect his family – perhaps he admits to the murder to save his Father from being suspect #1?) Any more specific predictions seem silly at this point – we don’t have anything in the text that would lead me to believe that any sort of familial estrangement is imminent.
We don’t know how Adolin is going to react to all of his favorite people being Radiants while he’s left out. We don’t know how well Adolin is going to handle Sadeas’ murder.
I guess the bottom line here is that I don’t see any reason to get all agitated about something that will probably never even become an issue. I prefer to let things happen and react to them over getting all angsty over something that hasn’t – and might never – happen.
There has been waaaaaay too much wall-of-text discussion about Adolin the last few chapters. Let’s talk about something different. How about Jasnah? What’s your favorite Jasnah ship? Jasnah/Kaladin? Jasnah/Shallan? Jasnah/nobody?
@66. I really think Jasnah and no one. She’s too busy and has things that need to get done.
But, Jasnah and Rock, that would be fun. :-D
This comment makes me wonder if the Parshendi have a normal rhythm of destructive anger. One that is not of Odium, but the normal rage of extreme anger.
So this one has enough of anger in it for Rlain to recognize it as destructive, even if it’s not one he’s heard before.
I do fear that if the SA every gets put on the silver or TV screens, the rhythms will be one of the first things lost.
@65 and 66
Agree, and I’ll even refrain from posting the minor comment I had regarding Adolin.
I’m with Braid_Tug: Jasnah and Rock, for no particular reason other than comic relief.
Finally getting back here; I’ve had house guests and have been busy having fun with them. So I thought I’d throw in my Zahel/Ishar theory. Like Isilel, I completely missed the “colorful metaphors” linking Zahel to Vasher, but I made an immediate connection to Ishar – and that was even before I saw the Herald icons, where Ishar (the Priest) is invariably associated with Zahel. So… my pet theory about Zahel being Ishar is (currently) as follows. I’m sure there are other versions out there, so I’m not claiming responsibility for them.
Long, long ago (at least 5000 years, Roshar time) Honor and Cultivation needed a new way to fight and to bind Odium. They searched the Cosmere and found ten hardy individuals who were willing to commit to its defense by agreeing to an Oathpact: Odium had freedom to torture (but not kill) them until one could no longer stand it. At that point, all ten would be transferred to Roshar, with magical swords and powers, to aid the people of Roshar in fighting off Odium-influenced forces. If they died, they were involuntarily returned to the torture. If they won, they returned voluntarily, and Odium with them, remaining bound to the Rosharan system until one of them couldn’t stand the torture, when it would start again.
(The above is mostly known history, with a tiny bit of speculation. The following is ALL speculation.)
One of the places they went recruiting was Nalthis, and there they found an honorable and hardy swordsman who was willing to join their cause. He may have been called Ishar already, or that may have been the name he took when he joined them; we do not know for sure what his name was at the time. In any case (in theory), he became one of the Heralds, assuming the role of Priest and wielding the Surges of Tension and Adhesion. Thus he fought for many centuries, until he and his companions could no longer bear to maintain the Oathpact; nine of the ten abandoned their task.
After several millennia of wandering Roshar incognito, Ishar returned to his home planet of Nalthis. There he died, and was Endowed with a divine Breath, becoming one of the Returned. Having now no memory of his former life as a Herald, he nonetheless retained certain skills (see Lightsong’s experience to know that this does indeed happen). He was called Talaxin, and was one of the Five Scholars. Perhaps because of subconscious recollection, he attempted to emulate the Shardblades of his past, creating Nightblood as an Awakened, sentient sword – with, unfortunately, insufficient understanding to balance it’s designed instincts. In the time since then, he has been variously known on Nalthis as Warbreaker, Kalad, Peacegiver, and Vasher. At some point after the events of Warbreaker, he went back to Roshar, where he now lives as an ardent and goes by the name Zahel.
One of the major arguments against the theory is that Returned are not supposed to – and Vasher tells Vivenna that he does not – have any memory of his life before he Returned, so he could not know how to create a Shardblade that he can’t remember. Furthermore, there is a WoB that says “There are those involved who knew that Shardblades existed before they tried the Nightblood experiment.” While it’s possible to interpret this in a way that precludes his ability to create something based on his pre-Returned life experiences, it may also be interpreted as a sneaky way of saying that Ishar/Talaxin knew about Shardblades, even though he had no conscious memory of them.
End of theory.
It is also very interesting to note that at one point, Vasher/Zahel was known as Kalad; the similarity to Kaladin can hardly be a coincidence, right? WoB states that “Kaladin is Kalak (Herald) + din, which is a suffix” – but still, Kalad/Kaladin? Maybe I’m wrong about Zahel being Ishar – maybe he’s actually Kalak.
@62 – Re: Zahel/Ishar – I’m with you on this one. When I first read WoR, I didn’t make the connection between Zahel and Vasher at all (had to have it spelled out to me by the review sections). I knew there was more to Zahel, but I also assumed the big reveal would be that he was Ishar. During the Zahel interlude, after Kaladin leaves and Zahel dwells on how he no longer hears the voice speak in his mind anymore, I thought that was a clue that as a Herald he used to hear Honor’s voice, and that he hadn’t heard it in years because he had forsaken his oath after Aharietiam. I still like the theory that Zahel is both Vasher and Ishar, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Ishar ends up being someone else instead.
@66 – I wish we talked about Jasnah more often; she’s one of my favorite characters and I really wish we got to see more of her. I enjoyed the short story Brandon wrote on Tor.com about Jasnah’s exploits in Shadesmar, right after being stabbed on the boat. To bad he doesn’t currently have plans to publicly expand on that.
Going back even further, even before WoR came out I was a fan of Jasnah pairing off with Kaladin. I didn’t want the Stormlight Archive to follow the generic story of the commoner (Kaladin) becoming the magical chosen one, and then rescuing/falling in love with the innocent young (younger than our chosen one, of course!) noble woman (Shallan) who fit the “Damsel in Distress” trope. That’s why I still prefer Shallan not pair up with Kaladin, and am very comfortable with her existing arrangement.
However, I totally liked the flipping of the script, where the older, capable princess (Jasna) saves the magical commoner and the world (by actually using her intelligence to research, discover and then solve the crisis!), proving that she was actually the chosen one after all. True, that is definitely not the story that Brandon is giving us. But I still like the idea of swapping the stereotypical fantasy May-September romance to have the mature princess find/rescue her relatively-innocent commoner and make him her prince.
Having said all that, I think all indications are that Jasnah may choose to not end up with anyone.
…And that Jasnah/Rock or Jasnah/Lopen would be incredibly entertaining to read.
ETA: I see that while typing this, Alice also added her 2 cents about Zahel/Ishar. Glad to see there were a number of us out there.
I am one of those who wants a Jasnah/Kaladin pairing. My reason is really shallow though. I want something controversial in the series. And a cougar relationship is a good one for me right now. M/M and F/F relationships are so popular now in fiction be it on TV or in books that it has lost its shock appeal. A cougar relationship has not been tackled seriously in fantasy except I believe in the Malazan series between Paran and Tattersail but I don’t want to go there because it might be a spoiler to some here.
KiManiak’s view is more intelligent than mine, :-) and really makes more sense than my very shallow reasoning. I like controversy as a subplot. Case in point – I might be unhappy with Rand and his harem at Wheel of Time but I also see how it really made the story more compelling.
Currently I am reading a YA story about a reverse harem – one girl and 9 boys. And no, it is not salacious. The worst thing they had done was kissing. That author had me hooked because I want to know how she will make things work.
That said, I also have to disclose that Jasnah is my favorite female character in SA. Too bad really that we saw very little of her in WoR but I love her philosophical discussions with Shallan. Through Jasnah I see a different facet of Brandon as a writer, that is being a philosopher.
The biggest problem I see with the Vasher as Ishar is the WoB at Jordan Con.
One of his fears is ensuring SA can stand as its own work. Even if someone reads it and no other Cosmere works.
So if a Hearld is a world hopper, that would rather mess with the books standing on their own. YMMV.
It is a really cool theory.
But don’t we already know that the Heralds aren’t originally from Roshar? Might be wrong on that; now I have to go look it up.
Do we? I don’t remember that at all.
@51 Gepeto: Oh, no hard feelings. I just wanted to clarify in case you had misunderstood some of the Kaladin/Shallan arguments I was throwing around and been frustrated by them. As for the rest…I wish I could say something that would wind up being encouraging, but at this point I think I would just annoy everybody without accomplishing anything.
@66 Austin: I’m hoping that Jasnah doesn’t wind up with anybody. I like it when women choose to be single and are happy with it, mostly since I enjoy seeing women deciding their own priorities and not being swayed by feelings or societal norms. It would be interesting if Jasnah was interested in romance to an extent, but chose to put it aside because she thought focusing on scholarship or remaining independent was more important. I guess I just like to see characters demonstrating that romantic love isn’t the center of the universe and that people aren’t totally ruled by their feelings and desires.
I’m hoping that Marasi remains single for the same reasons, but I’m not as sure that she’ll end up that way.
@69 Wetlandernw: What’s to say that Vasher was a Herald before Returning? I can’t remember if it would mess up the timeline, but could Vasher have died, Returned, went to be a Herald, then come back to Nalthis and made Shardblades?
Myself, I think it’s an interesting theory, but…I just don’t see any compelling reason to make the jump in the first place from Vasher to Ishar. I think Ishar could’ve shown up in all the Vasher chapters simply because he’s an ardent. (Though…did Ishar show up in the chapters with Kabsal?) But I do like the idea of the Heralds being people from other planets of the Cosmere trying to stop Odium. Which, speaking of that, last I checked the question of the Heralds being native to Roshar got RAFO’d.
There isn’t enough time for Vasher to have been a Herald after he Returned. The Heralds abandoned the Oathpact some 4500 years ago, Roshar time; while Warbreaker takes place before Stormlight Archive, it’s not that much before. If I read the timeline in Warbreaker right, Vasher only Returned around… um… maybe 500 years (I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I did figure it out) before the events in Warbreaker. While it’s probable that one year on Nalthis isn’t exactly the same elapsed time as one year on Roshar, they’re not likely to be that far different. So at the outside, I think Vasher could have Returned about 1000 years ago from this point… too recently to be a Herald afterwards.
As far as where the Heralds were born… yeah, we don’t know. Brandon has carefully NOT said that they were native to Roshar, at the very least, but I’m almost (only almost) sure he gave further indication that they were not originally from there. I’d forgotten about the Heralds all being from where Taln is from, but he could also be playing clever little word games; in a very real sense, the Heralds are all “from” wherever the place of torture is (Damnation? Braize?); he didn’t exactly say that they were all born on the same planet.
FWIW, I’m perfectly well prepared to have this theory blown out by something canonical… but so far, none of the arguments against it are insurmountable.
Been a while but I finally have time to comment again…but I see a lot has been covered in the mean time, huzzah everyone.
And for waaaay back, @27 sheesania: Really liked your analysis here. That internal snick feeling you described is why in a lot of ways I appreciate Kaladin’s segments the most – out of all the characters I think he manages to get those most vividly. Probably helps a couple of them coincide with explosive magical upgrades, but still!
Some extra thoughts I had:
Vasher as Ishar I didn’t comment on because…I like it as a theory but I’m already plenty happy to just see Vasher having shown up again, even under a pseudonym (he was either my second or third favorite character after Lightsong and sharing/alternating with Nightblood…I kind of counted them together until basically this book). That said, it wouldn’t surprise me if more is going on there – and while I too worry sometimes about it getting too Cosmere heavy, it’s possible leveraging Zahel *as* a Herald would in-story cover for a lot of the strangeness of what he knows. As readers of course we could discern the Cosmere connections, but Zahel could no-sell being a Worldhopper more as just an obviously long life of experiences, which anyone in-world would understand if he was a Herald.
On the subject of bravery: some excellent thoughts have been made, but I wanted to add that the most essential aspect of bravery in this chapter is not the personal bravery of the POV characters, although they still demonstrate it. Thematically though it’s about inspiring bravery: this involves the entirety of Dalinar’s section and Adolin’s section as well, as Dalinar personally helps the highprinces that need it with little speeches (love Sebarial commenting this, and on Dalinar’s subconscious realization that he doesn’t need to help Sebarial – not that he realizes this of course, he just rationalizes it as Sebarial being useless in this specific regard), he helps all the troops by giving a speech which is spread out, and Adolin rallies himself to help hold his side of the battle, reassuring his troops.
Sureblood’s death: as a pet owner I understand this feeling implicitly, so even though I don’t care too much about Sureblood myself (horses are fine but not my cup of tea), I am sold on Adolin’s grief in this scene. And more importantly, I think the loss of Sureblood is something to affect Adolin more in the long run – as some people have pointed out, Sureblood is just one of several important emotional anchors for Adolin, but just because sequentially it’s the first one dragged out doesn’t mean it’s not ultimately pivotal. How much will it weigh on Adolin when, on top of all the other changes to his routine, he realizes he doesn’t need to worry about time for Sureblood…
Shallan’s scene is a lot like a college student busy working on a research paper in the last stages or studying for one major final: it’s a mixture of exhaustion after constant mental work and a slowly narrowing focus. Which makes it satisfying when she gets that crucial bit of information and has the breakthrough she so desperately wanted.
And I guess finally, on Jasnah: I’m content with whatever Sanderson does, although I’d prefer him to push his limits. So Jasnah being asexual I would be fine with because he hasn’t often done that character type. Similarly, some kind of pairing like Jasnah and Kaladin would be interesting and new. Jasnah in general though is something of an enigma still: hopefully in book 3 we’ll get plenty more of people interacting with her so we can get a better total perspective on her.
@77: you said:
When I read that section – I see it as Dalinar provided each Highprince they type of inspiration needed. The other two needed the “Blackthorn” type of inspired confidence. They work with the classic Vorin philosophy.
Sebarial – he’s a different skyeel. It comforted him to know Dalinar was not super confidant. Dalinar also placed Sebarial in a place of his strength. Planning – not battlefield command. Sebarial later proved this was the right place for him, by getting all the armies moving on to the Oath Gate plateau. Sebarial is the opposite of “useless”, he’s just not a typical warrior prince. Honestly, I’m glad Sanderson included him in the mix of highprinces. He acts as a counterpoint and shows that, yes, there are several different leadership models even the Vorins follow.
I don’t see the justification for ‘Wet’s’ speculation that identifies Vasher/Zahel with the Roshar Herald, Ishar. The Heralds after breaking their Oathpact have regressed and are unrecognizable. Shalash, the paradigm of beauty, now defaces her images. Jezrien, the paradigm of royalty, is now a slobbering drunk. Nalan, the paradigm of justice, now seeks out and kills proto-Radiants on the slightest pretext. Taln is insane. Why, then, should Ishar be the one sane Herald encountered? He may be crotchety, but he is sensible. Moreover, Ishar was,apparently, the rule maker of the Heralds. At least he is alleged to have set up the rules for the Radiants. The scruffy Vasher doesn’t strike me as a rule follower. I would also not connect his name, Kalad, with the Kaladin of the SA books other than the association of that name with the protective animated statues that brought peace to Nalthis. As I recall, Vasher was not the primary creator of Nightblood. Rather, it was his colleague and wife, Shashara. His knowledge of the Purelake and the attempt of some Worldhoppers to find Hoid there may be a reflection of the magical properties of the warm, very shallow lake. Amongst others, that vision by Dalinar in the lake had it featuring the emergence of a Stormclast monster from the lake bed. Perhaps it’s an Odium shardpool.
So, yea, about Zahel being Ishar – well while I immediately suspected him of being an ex-Herald, I arrived at Ishar by the process of elimination, since at that point we knew where and who Talenel (even if Taln isn’t him) and Nalan were, Jezrien was, according to Nalan “drooling” somewhere – and I am inclined to believe him about that, if nothing else. For some reason I was also convinced that the nervous individual talking to Nalan in Jasnah’s WoR prologue was Kalak. Sure, he sounds different from his WoK prologue, but I had a feeling that he _could_ be the same person, given how we know that at least some ex-Heralds turned into dark caricatures of the qualities that they are supposed to embody.
Also, an irreverrent and cynical ardent could be a distortion of Ishar’s alleged role as the Priest, though not as horrifically inverted as, say, Nalan’s role as the Judge. But then, I also felt that Ishar’s domains would allow him to adapt to his fall better than a lot of his colleagues.
OTOH, one of Warbreaker’s past names being Kalad (which I have forgotten) and Willshapers being travelers and exploreres, as well as builders could also indicate that he is Kalak. On the gripping hand Vasher does sound similar to Ishar and Warbreaker did try to unify the nations of Nalthis.
Anyway, speaking of Returned, what are the Heralds if not Returned made Honor & Cultivation-style? I mean, they can’t stay dead, can they? They come back. After a sojourn in Odium’s torture halls before they broke the Pact, but the fact that they seem to be still around 4.5 millenia after that event suggests to me that they don’t need his assisstance to return to life. Because even if they don’t age and can’t die from disease, etc., surely there would have been accidents and even suicide attempts, given the evidence of despondency at least some of them seem to wallow in? The WoB re: Nightblood being a an attempt at shardblade made with Endowment-investiture only confirmed this notion for me.
So, my idea of Zahel/Vasher as Ishar (or Kalak, but I think that Ishar is likelier. IMHO “man called Taln” if he is not really Talenel, may be Kalak driven mad by guilt) is that he put his millenia of uninterrupted existence to use learning things about the Cosmere and becoming a Worldhopper. Maybe he was even looking for a way to die that would guarantee that Odium couldn’t get his hands on him and that he’d stay dead. In which case, leaving the sphere of influence of Rosharan threesome would be a good bet. Or maybe he was looking for something more positive, wanted to do good somewhere in a way that didn’t require being tortured for all eternity.
Anyway he went to Nalthis. He may have died there, accidentially or on purpose, or just recognized that he was a Returned equivalent. Even if he had died, I don’t think that he forgot his past – his Return would have been a matter of mixed Shardic investiture at best and wouldn’t have worked like pure Endowment process. Hence his remembering life as a drab and his attempt to make a shardblade with Endowment investiture. Maybe Ishar/Zahel seems to be doing better than Nalan/Jezrien/Shalash, etc. because he left for a time and did other stuff in a domain of a different Shard. In any case, at some point he decided to come back to Roshar, for whatever reason, and give Nightblood to Nalan. Zahel/Vasher being a fellow ex-Herald would explain this otherwise strange and somewhat contrived connection.
That’s my simple and straighfrorward theory about Zahel/Vasher being Ishar ;). And I don’t actually think that it relies more on the knowledge of the Cosmere than the mere introduction of Vasher and his Endowment-invested talking sword into Stormlight Archive. I mean, he and Nightblood are already worldhoppers, and the latter is going to play an important role, since Szeth is slated for a PoV book. Vasher being Ishar doesn’t bring in any additional Cosmere-dependancy into the series, IMHO.
Oh, and Jasnah is also my favorite character! It is so refreshing to have somebody’s professional research contribute so much to solution/encourage fruitful lines of inquiry in epic fantasy, rather than have the completely ignorant young protagonist’s “flying by the seat of their pants” and intrinsic instincts trumping everything that their trained predecessors ever worked at, all the time. Yes, I am still bitter about WoT, why do you ask? Anyway, I really hope that Jasnah is going to be Moiraine done right. And maybe become a worldhopper at some point? I mean, there are so few prominent female worldhoppers in Cosmere works so far and her being an Elsecaller should predispose her for something like that, IMHO…
@77 FenrirMoridin: Oh, I’m glad you enjoyed it! Sanderson is really good at evoking that snick. (It’s probably one of the main reasons I love his books.) A number of chapters ago I brought up a theory about Sanderson endings, that there’s a plot resolution, a character resolution, and a magic resolution, and the ending is strongest if they all coincide. There’s something related going on here, I think. Really, Kaladin’s whole ending in WoR is a great example of Sanderson fitting everything together in a satisfying way.
@78 Braid_Tug: On Sebarial – That was a great touch, that he felt more confident to know that Dalinar wasn’t confident. A bold, noble Dalinar who’s on top of things doesn’t really fit in Sebarial’s somewhat cynical worldview – Dalinar would have to be deluded or faking it. But a Dalinar who isn’t completely sure of himself can be genuine.
@80 Isilel: Oo, I like the idea about the person known as Taln actually being Kalak gone mad from guilt.
No time to read through all these comments so if someone else pointed this out already sorry- but you know the chapter has the dustbringer person on it … and Hoid gets reffered to as Dust … … … *blinks* … do we know if worldhoppers can not be members of orders?
Oooooo. I noticed the connection between “Dust” and Hoid telling stories using colored dust, but completely missed the possible connection to the Dustbringers. Even if he’s not a member of the Order, it seems he might display some of their attributes – what little we know of them.
You know, outside of what will happen to the characters. The “big picture” thing I’m looking forward to finding out is more about the orders of KR. Fingers crossed we learn more about the other orders. Right now, the quizzes of “what KR order do you want to be” are rather limited.
@75: Nah I wasn’t frustrated by anything you said nor was I really frustrated. I would qualify more of a tiredness of always hearing the same arguments being made by an increasingly high number of various individuals (as I said earlier, I am not referring to discussions having happened on this re-read, I like to read here and there) which started to make me think if I wasn’t in the wrong. Basically the idea was: “What all of those people thinking Shallan and Kaladin are a better match due to their brokenness/Radianess which would allow them an understanding Shallan and Adolin would never achieve?”, what if they are right and I am wrong? What if the difference in between Radiant and non-Radiant indeed is a wide chasm as opposed to a small gap? What if a bridge large enough to cross it would be too heavy to sustain itself in the long run?
So what if? This was the question I tried to raise, albeit my wondering as to what the status of the new Kholin Radiants would change in the one who has been left behind.
On the subject of Jasnah, I appear to agree with the majority: I would prefer if she would not enter a romantic relationship not because she is asexual, but because she purposefully refuse to make the concessions married life would require on her work as a scholar. In other words, I would prefer if she believed there was more happiness for her to be found in a strong dedication to her work as opposed to finding a partner. Not all women choose to engage into married life, not all women want children: some women do choose career and it is great to see one of those into a fantasy story.
I am not keen on the cougar idea… not that I mind a cougar, I just do not picture Jasnah as one. Perhaps it is the fault of medias who gave me a wrong impression but, in my head, a cougar is a very experienced woman who enjoys flirting with young men. The imagery somehow contrast with my imagery of Jasnah: no matter how hard I try, picturing her seducing Kaladin just does not fit. This being said, if Brandon decides to write it, then I am sure he’ll find a way to bring it intelligently, but based on my current readings of the character, I am not sold on the idea.
I could picture Ialai as a cougar… Seriously (in fact I love Ialai as a cougar). But Jasnah? Not really. It just doesn’t fit in my head.
@77: What do you mean by “he realizes he doesn’t need to worry about time for Sureblood…”? I am not sure I understand your sentence… Do you mean Adolin won’t have time to grief for Sureblood which implies it’ll hit him in the face much later on, at an inappropriate time? Because I am truly unsure of the meaning here.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 78
Great assessment on Sebarial. I find him very interesting and actually after Dalinar, he is my favorite High Prince. He is also sort of a comic relief. And quite frankly, Elhokar can learn a lot from Sebarial. I wonder if Brandon will allow for those two to meet. It will be very interesting.
@85 Gepeto: You’re reading too much into the word worry there and missing the overall implication which comes more from the first part of the sentence: “How much will it weigh on Adolin when, on top of all the other changes to his routine, he realizes he doesn’t need to worry about time for Sureblood.” So I’m saying it will be disruptive to Adolin when, in the course of his routine, he realizes taking care of Sureblood isn’t something for him to do anymore.
I suppose I should have put it in clearer English however: essentially, the loss of Sureblood is the loss of what is probably one of Adolin’s most stable routines. Sure he ultimately cares more for his family, but there’s a reliability to animal interaction that human interaction often doesn’t carry. It leaves him more uprooted.
@78: Subconsciously I agree, but in this moment consciously Dalinar is too battle-focused to realize that I’d say – he just tells Sebarial to stay out of the way, tells him to give up command of his army (which Sebarial affably agrees to), and even tells him to prepare prayers. Sebarial is an excellent planner, but Dalinar doesn’t realize his need for that now, which is why when Sebarial rises to the occasion later it surprises him. It’s similar to how Dalinar basically accidentally comforted Sebarial: unlike the other two Highprinces, it wasn’t as intentional. Still, it’s a good sign for Dalinar the Bondsmith that even accidentally he inspires his men of all stripes.
I kind of want to add something to @80’s post but that seems like a solid way for Ishar and Vasher to be the same person. I suppose there’s just one other thing I’d like to point out: the Returned don’t usually seem to remember their past lives, this is true, but Vasher has spent much longer as a Returned than any of the others we saw in Warbreaker. In general Vasher likes to break a lot of rules doesn’t he? :3
@87: Ah thank you for explaining: the meaning of your sentence was lost to me. I was convinced I was not reading it right which is why I asked. My weird understanding didn’t make sense to me based on the rest of your post. Now it was clarified, then I must I do agree. No doubt taking care of a pet demands time. I am not much of a pet person myself, but I do know how time demanding one is and how invested in their care the owner may be. When my mother lost her cat, she was sadden, not because she particularly loved the cat (it was old and very sick: well she did love the cat but huh it was old and slightly mean), but because of the hole it made in her routine. She thought of how she uses to do this for the cat and that for the cat and now there was no more cat. This, I believe, sadden her more than losing said cat (again old and not a particularly fun loving cat).
Considering the fact Brandon had Adolin tell Sureblood he had been neglected (by neglecting, I suspect he meant spending less time with as I can’t picture Adolin neglecting a pet) him when Sureblood tries to comfort him after finding out his best friend was a scumbag, it is entirely possible seeing a hole in his routine may eventually weight on him. Based on the character’s behavior, so far, I’d say he is likely to go on and on and on and on with his duties, not wasting time being bothered by the lost of his Rhysadium, until one small moment spontaneously forces him to recall what he has lost.
It is also interesting how the Kholin men seem to all enjoy… stable routine. Just a thought to drop in.
Could Jasnah end up with Khriss? as a fellow researcher, or otherwise? The two of them seem very similar.
@82 dwcole: My sister and I have a theory where the Dustbringer order is literally trying to help bring “Dust”/Hoid to various planets (though it’s part of a larger, crazier theory in which the Dustbringers are actually bearers of Smedry Talents from the Alcatraz books, because their primary surge is Division, which sounds very much like breaking things, and the Breaking Talent is the foundation of all Smedry Talents; thus, Surge of Division = Talent!). More seriously, it’s an interesting connection, particularly given that Zahel is the one to use the name “Dust” – he’s the sort of person who’d be more in the know about the Radiants and their orders, so there’s a better chance he actually meant to refer to the Radiants with that name.
@89 JDD: Now that’s a fun idea! Though having Jasnah around would change the Khriss-Nazh dynamic that’s so amusing to watch. I wonder, however, how much Jasnah would be interested in leaving her home planet for long stretches of time to study other places…so far her research has been primarily focused on things of use to Alethkar and Roshar in general. But we can’t really say at this point.
Oh, and Brandon Sanderson said something about this recently!
Caring for Sureblood is one of Adolin’s most stable routines?
::gigglesnort:: Did you do that on purpose?
I wish I could say it was, I was pressed for time and it was the first word that came to mind…like most of my best (worst?) puns.
Hoid would be disappointed. >.>
(I won’t edit it though. <.< )
Alice and FenrirMoridin @@@@@ 91 and 92 – LOL I actually missed it until Alice posted at 91. LOL That’s a good one FenrirMoridin.
So been reading through parts of this the back and forth about bravery was interesting – not sure if you figured it out as not read through all of it. But part of the issue is you are using different definitions. Facing death is brave to most of us. I have not met one person that isn’t afraid of death (I have met plenty who say they are not but there actions say otherwise). Firemen running into a burning building not away from it are brave. This is the common definition. You seem to be using a definition of bravery gepeto more about individual growth. I have a flaw in my character I own up to it – face the flaw – and improve. Be it being scared of never being successful, be it owning my own racisim/classism. Having to ask for help – not being able to do everything myself. I would say this is certainly brave but this is not the common understanding of bravery. You seem to be acting like this is the only definition. It is not – over here in the West it is actually a very uncommon definition and form of bravery. Many people would not recognize some of these things AS brave – asking for help for example.
There are major cultural differences here that are causing the two of you to talk past each other.
On stress – I don’t see Aldolin always acting well to anger – but I am also one of the few who have no real problem with him killing Sadaes and consider it a reasonable action…I also don’t find tengerian evil …..
And I also missed the stable pun … please do not edit that fun fun.
Glad other people found my very half baked theory interesting. Anyone that wants to take a longer more detailed look at it please do so. Having only read mistborn boy do I miss a lot of the connections. Trying to follow Vasher as a Herald I can not … love that it somewhat makes my theory more plausible though…especially since I didn’t use it to begin with.
Do we know if the dustbringers like wit? Wit like Hoids can often be used to mask deep insecurity. What do we know of Hoids past – how broken is he? If he has been around since the “death” of the creator that could make one pretty broken…
I wonder where most people think I actually live…
I do believe solely linking bravery to acts of heroism involving potential physical harm is wrong and I do think it is wrong as well per its definition. Bravery doesn’t solely relate to facing death and while I admit it is the most generally accepted definition of the word, it nonetheless is not accurate. Being brave is about agreeing to place oneself into difficult situations: armed combat can certainly be difficult, such as entering a fire, but having to ask for help while being terribly afraid of it can be just as if not more demanding. Therefore, as long as you agree to put yourself into what forms a difficult situation for your being, being ready to face all consequences, then you are acting with bravery.
My motto about Adolin is he isn’t a character who genuinely agrees to face his fears. It doesn’t not make him “not brave”, it makes him “not as brave as other characters” or, more importantly “not outstandingly brave”.
@94 dwcole: Have you read the Liar of Partinel bits on Brandon Sanderson’s website? They’re here and here. (Midius is probably our Hoid.) These are just part of a draft of an old book that will certainly be heavily revised when it gets published – they’re not canonical at all – but they could offer some insight into Hoid’s past.
@95 Gepeto: Well, my guess is Central or South America, so…hopefully it’s not totally creepy that I’m curious about where people live and tend to notice details like when they usually post…
A thought on Adolin. I wonder can you choose to NOT become a radiant? Adolin does seem like he is heading for an emotional breakdown. Since one requirement to become a radiant is brokenness this could open the way for him to become one. HOWEVER, I believe it would be better for his character if he is given the choice to become a radiant and instead chooses NOT to. As previously stated it does seem that Adolin is now worried about his status as the only non-radiant among in his close family and friends. It seems to me if he is to grow as a character he needs to, as Gepeto would say, face his fears and insecurities. The best way to do this in my mind is have him be offered the chance to form the Nahel Bond, but realize that doing so would just validate all of his fears and he would be forever left wondering if his family is capable of loving him for who he is, rather then what (he thinks) they expect him to be.
On the subject of fear i think what Gepeto is saying is that while Adolin may fear death, he fears failing his family more. Personally I don’t think there is NECESSARILY anything wrong with having a big fear motivate you to face a smaller fear. For example, you may be afraid to die, but you risk death because you fear having your loved ones hurt more. However in this case I think Adolin does need to face his emotional insecurities as well. That being said, Adolin strikes me as more of the Ron Weasly type then the Darth Vader type.
@96: Interesting pick which makes sense in a bizarre kinda of way. I can see a rational for choosing it. Careful with the hours: I have try to do the same with other people once only to realize those people had bizarre sleeping habits.
@97: Interesting thought. I can see a rational being made where Adolin refuses to become a Radiant or refuses to acknowledge what is happening with his Blade. I certainly do want him to find acceptance based on his true self and not this persona he shoves around and adapts depending on who’s asking.
Indeed my point about bravery and Adolin is while he does face difficult situations with bravery, he hasn’t faced what he fears the most, yet. This is unlike our small crew of Radiants where most have faced their deepest fears: oddly, none were linked to dying nor battle. All had to do with revealing oneself. In this regards, Kaladin, Shallan and Renarin have all been braver than Adolin: I can’t say much for Dalinar nor Jasnah.
I wouldn’t link Adolin to Ron Weasley… Oh the mental imagery. Sorry to all Ron Weasley’s fans, but huh no.
@98 my link with Ron was that Ron is someone who very much resents being always second best (if only in his own mind). This resentment can lead to him, at his lowest point, leaving the heroes. Even so, while his resentment may at times stop him from doing the right thing, it will NEVER lead to him doing the evil thing. My apologies if I forgot something, it has been awhile since I read the Harry Potter novels.
Ah well it merely is each time I read the name Ron Weasley, I see Rupert Griffin’s face and he kinda of does not really look like Adolin… No offense meant to anyone. I would also argue Ron is the youngest less brilliant son of a family of high achievers while Adolin is the Golden Boy of his. Ron’s ressentment felt more like jealousy to me which isn’t something we have seen in Adolin… Adolin is see more are getting disillusioned with his life, thinking he has become a risk hasard for his family, feeling he has failed which would ultimately lead him to act crazy, impulsive or to force himself to keep on going, to keep on maintaining his duties while he is slowly cracking down. I see him hanging on, refusing to let go until the rope just breaks and he drops. Alternatively, I can also see him abandoning the heroes, not wanting to have anything to do with Radiants, because it hurts him too much, running away or trying do. This is where I can see your rational: just as Ron, Adolin may leave, but he’ll come back soon enough, head between his tail.
@98 Gepeto: Ha, I may notice details of when people usually post, but I can rarely actually determine anything from them. Even if one could somehow narrow it down to a few time zones, that still covers a huge area. Those details are just one type of pattern that I tend to pick up on when I interact with people on the Internet.
I have trouble accepting the Vasher = Ishar theory. Here’s why:
1. Vasher is actually From Nalthis, like, was born there right? It sure seems like the case.
2. I know the Return of Vasher is an old-ish event, but I seriously doubt it was >4500 Rosharan years ago, which given 1. above would be necessary in order for him to become Ishar.
Xaladin @102:
It is not known where Vasher was born, just that he lived on Nalthis for a few centuries as a Returned – but one who remembered living as a drab – which is really odd, because all the Returned have 5th Heightening and nomemory of their previous life, IIRC.
Also, per WoB, Nighblood was a purposeful attempt to re-create a shardblade with Endowment investiture – so _somebody_ among those who produced it must have at least visited Roshar. And, IIRC, only 2 people were involved – Vasher and his partner Shoshanna(?).
Ishar could have learned to world-hop and gone to Nalthis at any time after the Breaking of the Pact. IMHO if they are one and the same person, he was Ishar first, not the other way round.
Hmmm
Vasher was able to turn off his “Returned”-ness, which may be why he could remember living as a drab. Also, at times he would give away all his breath to an article of clothing, IIRC, so as to go unnoticed. Not sure if that leads anywhere in the discussion of whether he is a Herald, but I guess I’m arguing that his remembering being a drab seems to be something he could have done after Returning. On the other hand, Lightsong had vague memories of his past, while he misinterpreted them wildly, it is possible that Vasher was able to piece more of those memories together, because of his status as a Herald, or just because he was more intelligent than Lightsong.
I’m not convinced yet about the Ishar connection, but I don’t think there is anything insurmountable in the theory.
Marethyu316 @105:
Vasher and the other Returned could suppress outer manifestations of their nature, yes. But, my understanding, given that I have read “Warbreaker” years ago, is that their Divine Breath, the one that allows them to continue existing after death and gives them the 5th Heightening, is indivisible, and when they do give it away (miracles), they can only give all of it at once and die for good. It is possible that I am misremembering something, but I have a distinct recollection of feeling that the things didn’t quite add up about Vasher, even after his history and identity have been finally explained.
Hopefully, Alice will be able to do a re-read of “Warbreaker” and we’ll get a chance to examine the matter more closely.
Given that he was already present in earliest versions of WoK, I guess that Vasher is slated to play an important role in SA series, so better insight into him and Nightblood can only help.
Xaladin @102 – See my theory @69, and much of the discussion following.
No, there’s not enough time for Vasher to have been a Herald after he Returned – but what’s to stop him being a Herald before he Returned? I’m having trouble finding all the WoBs I remember, but IIRC Brandon has said that the Heralds weren’t originally from Roshar – or at least not necessarily. And if he were a Herald for a bunch of years (like 5000 or so) then dying and Returning might work just a little different for him than it does for normal Nalthians. As others have said, it’s quite possible that his practice in dying and still remembering everything might have transferred to dying and Returning, at least in part.
See what this does for you:
There’s also this one, based on someone asking if “Kelek’s Breath” was because Kelek was from Nalthis:
So whether that means NONE of the Heralds come from Nalthis, or NOT ALL of them do… is anyone’s guess.