Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, the apparent assassination that left us hanging at year’s end turned out to be no big deal. This week, we mostly talk about cons and curry.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 24: Tyn
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: The Frostlands
Symbology: Pattern, Kalak, Shash
IN WHICH Gaz and Red apply carpentry to Shallan’s wagon and explain their origins as soldiers; Vathah makes accusations of class treachery; Shallan sasses hard; She makes study of the Alethi highprinces, and attempts to plan her arrival; Gaz lies about his debts; Shallan seeks Urithiru and argues with Pattern on the nature of truth; Pattern reveals that Voidbringers have Spren, and that Odium exists; Tyn invites Shallan to dine with her; Tyn declares that Shallan is running a con, and she wants in; Shallan decides she can work with this.
Quote of the Week:
“These women were supposed to be scholars! Instead of recording facts, they wrote opinions and presented them as truth. They seem to take great pains to contradict one another, and they dance around topics of truth like spren around a fire—never providing heat themselves, just making a show of it.”
Pattern hummed. “Truth is individual.”
“What? No it’s not. Truth is… it’s Truth. Reality.”
And so on, and so forth. Shallan’s debate with Pattern about the nature of truth is an excellent diversion from the rest of the chapter. Considering this chapter has her sign on as a conwoman’s apprentice, it’s pretty bold of her to call historians liars. I have to admit, though, a large part of why I’m selecting this as the quote of the week is Shallan’s amazing gall. Did she really just say, to a spren, that spren dance uselessly around fires? Rude as balls, Shallan. Rude as balls.
Commentary: Shallan has managed to con a ton of people into catering to her every whim at this point. She’s hijacked two caravans and has a vicious gang of bandits sanding down her converted slave wagon for her. But, as I can tell you from my experience of having watched every single episode of Leverage, every con must have its co(n)mplications. (I deserve to be shamed for that, yes.) Shallan has established her little caravan cult right under the nose of Tyn, an actual conwoman with actual malice in mind, and there was no way someone like Tyn could see Shallan at work and not want in on whatever ludicrous scheme might be afoot. Unfortunately for the both of them, Shallan isn’t at her best in the planning stages, and she’s mostly ensnared everyone by telling them as much of the truth as she has available at the time. Even more unfortunately for Shallan, she and Tyn have an unknown history that will come calling for her sooner later.
Before that, though, there will be con game training montages. Have I mentioned that I love training montages? You might hear more about that. You just might.
Who would have expected how nice it is to see Gaz palling around with Shallan? Gaz may not be a good guy, but it’s easy to believe that he wants to be. Shallan’s offered him the opportunity to make right, and he’s desperate to prove himself worthy of her attention. It seems to me that he’s being solicitous because he believes that Shallan might take her promise away, and he’s not sure what he’ll become without that hope. He’s still haunted by many things, of course. His persistent tic of turning his head to the side proves that he still sees horrors in his blind spot, and his refusal to come straight with Shallan about the source of his debt hints at greater revelations yet to come. For now, it’s nice to see him as the guy who’s willing to let people laugh at his expense, and to be surprisingly frank about his sexual history. Poor Shallan seems to have no idea what it means for Gaz to have had a tongue on him.
Sprenspotting: Lots to talk about this week! Pattern begins to dish on all kinds of things we suspected but hadn’t confirmed before. During their debate on the nature of truth, Pattern insists that spren are influenced by human perception more than anything. Without humans, a table is just a bunch of wood, and a spren doesn’t even have thought. At least, not in this realm; Pattern can’t make any promises about the Cognitive Realm. He also tells Shallan that Voidbringers have their own spren, although Pattern’s people don’t speak of it.
“Spren are… power… shattered power. Power given thought by the perceptions of men. Honor, Cultivation, and… and another. Fragments broken off.”
“Another?” Shallan prodded.
Pattern’s buzz became a whine, going so high pitched she almost couldn’t hear it. “Odium.” He spoke the word as if needing to force it out.
Dun dun DUUUUUN.
Heraldic Symbolism: Two-Herald Thursday returns. Chapter 24 is Heralded (eheheh) by Kalak (Resolute, Builder) and Shalash (Creative, Honest). My first guess for why is that Kalak represents Gaz and Shalash represents Shallan. The two of them in conversation express these virtues very well. Kalak is an extra-relevant comparison because, if you’ll remember, he’s our first viewpoint character and the first thing he does is desert. Gaz is his kind of dude.
Note two: seeing Kalak and Shalash next to each other makes me anxious for Kaladin to meet Shallan.
It Takes a Lot to Make Tallew: You probably thought I’d forgotten about this section. Not so!
The leader of the former deserters held a small bowl of steaming curry from the dinner cauldron. Shallan could smell the pungent peppers. While it would have made a nice change from the stew she’d eaten with the slavers, the caravan had proper women’s food, which she was obliged to eat. Maybe she could sneak a bite of the curry when nobody was looking.
Shallan is feeling some mild gender defiance here, wanting to taste the mouthwatering and forbidden curry of the menfolk. This sets up the following moment:
Tyn sat cross-legged after flipping her coat out behind her. She dug into her meal, dipping flatbread in a curry that seemed too dark—and smelled too peppery—to be feminine.
Oho! What have we here! A model for a woman who can defy gender norms, and one who is willing to teach Shallan to do the same? Tyn hates the proscription that women must eat sweet food and men spicy food, having grown up in a culture that made no such distinctions, and now she has no interest in conforming. Which brings us smoothly to our final section of the week!
Shipwatch: This one is out there, but I think that as a stealthy crack ship there’s a lot to be said for ShallaTyn. Tyn models gender nonconformity with her curry-eating, sword-and-pants wearing ways, and through her freedom she is prepared to liberate Shallan from her genderbound preconceptions. What forbidden love could grow from that liberation? Only time and femslash will tell! (Yes, I know it is not meant to be.)
That’s all for me this week. Next week, Kaladin will face his greatest foe yet, a mighty beast he has never been prepared to confront. Will he survive? Yeah, probably.
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
OK I missed Chapter 23 Assasin Reread. Where did it go? Can anyone point me in the right direction?
@1- Near the top of the post there is link to the re-read index. If you go down to the bottom of the index page chapter 23 should show up.
@1 – Click on “Previous” above, right next to where it says “Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com” at the end of the article. It’ll take you to
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2015/01/words-of-radiance-reread-chapter-23
Great, now I have the “Montage” song from South Park (and Team America) stuck in my head for the rest of the day. Thanks a lot, Carl.
I never considered ShallaTyn before, and clearly that thought’s going nowhere, what with Shallan killing Tyn after Tyn tries to kill Shallan and all, but it is an interesting attempt…
Always fade out in a montage….
(Dammit!)
Pattern’s comments about Honor, Cultivation, Odium & spren illustrate how much potential knowledge that sentient spren have at their disposal. (At least those in the Cognitive Realm and any who cross over into the Physical Realm and can remember.) I cannot wait to read what Jasnah learned when she was in the Cognitive Realm.
How long do you think that Lift had her spren (I cannot remember his name)? He seemed like he did not have the same memory issues that Pattern and Syl have from time to time.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
AndrewB @5 – Lift’s spren is Wyndle. They’ve been bonded at least long enough for to be able to use both of her Surges, and to have reached the Second Ideal, and to have been trailed by Darkness/Nalan from one city to another. And re: memory issues, yes, I found it very frustrating (in a “Brandon Sanderson is a great writer, I want the answers right now right now right now” sort of way) than Wyndle seemed in full possession of his faculties and was ready to explain Realmatic theory and magic to us…and Lift shuts him up, being completely disinterested!
I didn’t read the Lift interlude in advance – I wanted to read it within the context of the whole book – and I was pulling my hair out when we got to that scene!
I do enjoy these rereads. You kind folks bring up things that I missed totally. Here are a few things that I missed the first, second and third time through the chapter.
Shallan says to Vathah “… in my experience, words are where most change begins.” Of coures later on we learn from Pattern that Shallan speaking “words” is where her change begins also. Words not Oaths are what is needed in becoming a Lightweaver.
“And that’s a lie,” Shallan said, cocking her head. “I would know the truth from you, Gaz.” As Shallan is trying to get Gaz to reconize his lie to himself, later Pattern also will push for Shallan to “remember”the truth.
“Your truth is what you see,” Pattern said, sounding confused. “What else could it be? That is the truth that you spoke to me, the truth that brings power.” Is Pattern refering to “truths” that Shallan had spoken to Pattern in her youth? Is the “power” he refers to here the power of a Knight Radiant?
is this Brandon foreshadowing or him having a chuckle at our or at least my expense? It could be that there was no intent on Brandons part and I’m only reading things into this with knowledge of what is to happen in the rest of the book.
on a complete side note, I’d recommend listening to the audiobook of WoR at least once if for no other reason than to hear Kate do Pattern’s voice. It’s so cute and funny! Especially when he’s just humming. And the “I am a stick” part is hilarious to hear too.
Marbles? MARBLES? Really, Gaz?
Did we learn what Gaz is seeing in his blind spots? I don’t recall.
Shallan apprenticing as a conwoman. Perfect.
We’re all missing the big point, which is that on Roshar, apparently oral sex is something people Don’t Do.
(Or, possibly, that people don’t admit to doing in front of a noble lady, but I read the scene as everyone astonished that Gaz has had someone put their MOUTH somewhere *gasp*)
Semi-random thoughts and ramblings on the chapter…
Favorite line: “The last thing I’d want to do is accidentally insult you, Vathah,” Shallan said. “To think that I couldn’t manage it on purpose if I wanted!”
Risky, but it’s still my favorite line. I can’t help thinking that deliberately antagonizing him wasn’t terribly smart, although I’m not quite sure what else she could have done. Trying to be conciliating would probably just have made her look weak to both him and the other men, so that wouldn’t have been smart either. Of course, it didn’t really matter, the way it turned out in the end.
I notice that she did get Gaz to at least admit the extent of his debts, if not the way they were incurred. Still a bit of mystery to solve, there.
This time through, I was intrigued by the review of Jasnah’s notes on the highprinces. Her top three probable allies are Sadeas, Aladar, and Hatham – the three most obviously against Dalinar, though of course she didn’t know that. I wonder why Jasnah thought so highly of them when she made these notes, and if their alliance against Dalinar is really that recent. It didn’t seem like the antagonism between Dalinar and Sadeas was all that new; I wonder why that’s not part of the notes.
Also, it’s rather funny to know that the bottom of the barrel on Jasnah’s list becomes Shallan’s first ally.
I want to comment on Pattern’s revelations about spren, but I need to think about it more first. So… not yet.
Tyn. The first time I read this, I rather liked her. Now, not so much. In fact, reading this chapter again tonight, I find myself actively disliking her. But what I want to know is just what she meant by, “Trust me, you want to know who I know, and you want to work with them. Without their approval, nothing big happens at the Shattered Plains.” I’m sort of guessing she was referring to the Ghostbloods, maybe. Or maybe not. Does “nothing big” refer to her world of cons and criminals, or does she think she knows people who control the “big things” we know Shallan is going after? It’s fairly clear that she doesn’t actually know the political leaders, much less have any influence with them, so who are these people whose approval is so sorely needed?
@11
I always read the whole Jasnah and prospective allies bit as a demonstration of either the change that’s happened social since the courts move to the Shattered Plains, or that she may be clever and a genius researcher/historian, but she is a rubbish judge of character.
Jasnah’s information concerning the leading Alethi figures outside of her family is clearly dated. Her notes presumably date to or reflect the time of her father’s assassination and its immediate aftermath. At that time, Sadeas and Dalinar were friends and allies who had sworn a pact to protect Gavilar’s heir to the Alethi throne. Sadeas’ turning against Dalinar is a reflection of his disdain of the latter’s character reformation. Her disdain for Sebarial’s vulgarity has blinded her to his innate abilities as reflected in his realistic and clever approach to turning the Shattered Plains imbroglio to his advantage. Tyn may be an interesting character but she is not a sympathetic one – even at this point. Her interests are criminal. Shallan is, in her eyes, a means of benefiting from a new scheme (scam). Her talk of very influential associates in the ruling circles at the Shattered Plains may be empty boasting. She had the contract with the Ghostbloods to assassinate Jasnah, but Mraize considers her disposable. It is also possible that she has had some connection to Ialai who runs Sadeas’ intelligence/assassination operation.
@11 I am with you on Tyn, except for the fact I disliked her from the beginning. I was always distressed to find Shallan going under this “mentoring” with her and, for a while, I thought Brandon was going to play it all the way through (I imagined Shallan arrivying to the Shattered Plains and playing the con-woman with Adolin… the thought of it made me sick in the stomach… So glad it did not happen) . I do not know what I found so unnerving about her, but I just couldn’t stand her, nor did I appreciate the fact Shallan kept on lying to keep the appareances. I must admit I would have never behave the way she did which may be why I found it so disturbing to begin with.
I was glad when Tyn died.
As for Jasnah’s notes, I thought it highlighted just how failible she can be. Clearly, she missed a few important points. She completely misjudged Sebrarial and failed to see his cunning and his cleverness. On the other, she made the same mistake Dalinar made in thinking too highly of Sadeas and in failing to see his upcoming treachery. Truth to told, Kohlins (Dalinar, Jasnah, Elhokar, Navani) may be smart, but they sure are not very perceptive when it comes to reading people. Adolin may be the exception, but nobody listens to him on such matters.
Oral sex !!?? Didn’t see that one coming, but I do believe Gaz’ debts had something to do with gambling and/or a fondness for ladies who are paid for their services. With emphasis on the latter.
Is Tyn far enough up the food chain to know of the Ghostbloods
existence as a society, rather than having a more general understanding of her superiors (like my bosses)? I suppose she could be, but I took her boast to mean important people in the criminal sense, not political revolutionaries. She seems more of a street lieutenant than an upper-level captain, and being prone to exaggerate her importance. That said, it probably doesn’t matter in the long haul either way.
Edit – Still haven’t figured out what Gaz is seeing in his blind spot. Coppermind makes no mention. Anyone recall? Could it be spren checking him for radiancy?
Ways @15 – It’s implied, at least, that she knows the Ghostblood organization by that name. The spanreed conversation in Ch. 34 specifically refers to them. On top of that, Mraize & co. seem to have known her quite well, and IIRC they imply that she thought she was much closer to “in” than she really was. So I think she knows about them by name – but I’m betting she doesn’t know what they’re really about!
And I don’t think we’ve found out yet what Gaz keeps looking for; maybe you could find a way to ask about that? If it gets a big fat RAFO, you’d at least have a hint as to whether it’s something that’s going to be a big Thing; and if you get a puzzled look and he has to think about it, you know it’s just a little thing. Or maybe you could phrase it in such a way as to get some kind of real answer…
I think the most curious part of this chapter for me was Pattern ranting in a language Shallan couldn’t understand during the highstorm. What the heck was that about?
@5 Wyndle did have some memory problems, when questioned how to perform regrowth, he replied
So while he still did have holes in his memory, its possible he remembered a good deal more than other spren due to the ‘preparations’
Another thought I had, when wetlandernw asked Brandon about Shallan convincing the deserters to help and he informed us that we have seen something similar before, I wonder if he was referring to emotional allomancy, and Shallan was able to Riot their emotions using a combination of the illumination and transformation surges (if this were true, it would have to be a combination, otherwise Hoid wouldn’t have needed to down the vial of metals at one of the king’s parties to make sure the right people were feeling the right emotions).
To return to something that has been brought up during the discussion of the previous chapter, I very much expect that more potential Radiants are going to show up soonish, particularly from the Cultivation side of the spectrum. It didn’t seem to me that it has been stated that Wyndle was the only one sent out by the mysterious council and Pattern has been working together with other Cryptics when they frightened Shallan into transforming that goblet back in TWoK.
I also like the suggestion that Tien had been a budding Lightweaver – he certainly had the artistic inclinations and personality for it. And the way he could always lighten everybody’s spirits was suggestive. Tien also died at about the same time as when Shallan had to kill her mother in self-defense, so he couldn’t have been Pattern’s initial choice.
And then, there was Ym and while it is technically possible that Glys went to Renarin after he was murdered, it seems that in all other cases more time had to pass for bond to advance to the stage where Renarin is now.
And finally, given that the Desolation is already beginning, it wouldn’t make sense for there being just one Radiant of each order for an extended amount of time. At least, the civilization seems to be more technolgically evolved than ever before, but still without the Heralds, with Diagram and whoever else doing their bit to destabilize everything, it would implausible if they managed to hold their own with just a handful of bidding Radiants.
I mean, it is, of course, a hoary trope of fantasy that the ill-prepared heroes facing insurmountable odds are always more successful than their much more skilled and highly prepared predecessors, but I hope that Sanderson won’t fall back on it.
High level of technological development on Roschar already gives me hope that he is going to tweak things enough for the outcome to be more interesting than that. He managed with the Mistborn trilogy, after all.
Oh, were we talking about Tyn? I have been really wary of the whole “conwoman’s apprentice” deal from the start, because I feared a WoT-style derail of Shallan’s storyline due to it. I have been very happy when this didn’t turn out to be the case ;).
In fact, I will be repeating this sentiment often from now on – Shallan’s storyline here and initially on the Plains had been a nerve-wrecking experience for me, because I kept expecting her to turn into Elayne with all that it might imply for her plot-line :).
Not to go on a tangent or anything (I never go on those, I merely continue tangents other people have already started), but Renarin was bonded to 2 Blades at the same time, right? One Living and one dead. So a person can bond multiple spren and that’s actually a thing, right?
Wetlandernw @16
Reread=necessity.
Another great question for the growing list. Hopefully, Ross & Co. can knock a few off in Atlanta. I’m thinking I’ll ask Branson what Gaz sees very directly. If the result is a RAFO, then a follow-up with the softer, “Is it a BIG deal?” part. I will need to prioritize the list of questions, le sigh. But first I’m going to dye a lab coat black.
Awesomeness @18 (and Wetlandernw)
I like that thought about Shallan being able to Riot emotions, however, the answer Brandon gave Wetlandernw seemed distinctly singular in nature. I suppose he may have been thinking only of Vin (or any number of others), or some specific incident at the time. Unclear.
Xaladin @20 – I’m not sure that possession of a Blade really qualifies as “bonding to a spren.” I’m not sure it doesn’t, mind you, but I’m not convinced it does. Not really. I’m sort of assuming that book 3 will start out with Renarin having unbonded himself from the dead Blade, though. It’s pretty beastly for him; and now that they know (more about) what’s going on, I’d think no one would have a problem with finding someone else to give it to!
Ways @21 – I like the idea of asking straight-up, and then following (if needed) with a query as to whether it even matters. Good plan. :)
Re: “what Shallan did” – I can’t help thinking that Rioting emotions is a little too obvious, after the follow-up question on Wednesday night. That wouldn’t be “something no one would expect” as an answer, right? And I agree, that the answer felt awfully like a one-off, not something we’ve seen done (or known could be done) by a lot of people. That was part of my reason for thinking of Shai (along with the possibility of a Soul component to what she did) – she’s definitely singular in her kind of magic.
I think our highest probabilities are:
Tien (because the idea that he was Surgebinding is still only a theory, and not a super-widely held one at that. I think it may be on the upswing, though!)
Raoden or Sarene (Elantris)
Vivenna or (less likely) Siri in Warbreaker
Um…. I can’ t think of anyone else who fits the “unexpected” qualifier, except in a couple of unpublished stories, and he wouldn’t have phrased it the way he did if it were an unpublished reference. (Is there anyone in Alloy of Law? I can’t remember.) I was thinking that we should narrow it down by asking if it was someone from Roshar, but there just really don’t seem to be all that many candidates. Somebody might as well just ask if it’s Tien, and if he says no, follow it up with “which world.” I don’t know if it’s going to be a RAFO thing, or something he wants us to think about and figure it out.
I believe bonding a dead spren is highly different then bonding a live one, except I suspect the experience is much different for one special being who has shown an increased sensitivity to the matter. For most shardbearers though, it probably just is a passive bond. Renarin has most probably been bonding Glys since early WoR if not late WoK (I do not believe we have sufficient information to pin-point when he started bonding Glys). He was incomfortable bonding his dead blade, a feeling both Dalinar and, to a lesser extend, Kaladin have felt in similar circumstances. The screams, however, seems to have started at a later point, indicating he must have spoken the first oath sometimes during the first third of WoR (speculation here based on Dalinar’s experience on the matter at the end of WoR where he starts hearing the screams after saying oaths (what is the first or the second that triggers it, I am unsure)). I do agree it is likely he’ll discard his Blade early on in book 3.
I am unsure about Tien being a Lightweaver theory. I based my assumptions on the fact Pattern stated he was the only one send and the time frame does not allow him to have tried Tien before moving to Shallan. Therefore, Tien being a proto-Lightweaver implies two Cryptics were sent and not one, which disaproves Pattern’s affirmation. Unless Pattern was not aware of a second Cryptic or unless he was lying, the probability of Tien bonding another Cryptic is rather low (the same can be said about Elholkar). Also, proto-Radiant Tien would have been hard to kill on the battle field. We have seen even novice proto-Radiants unconsciously draw in stormlight to heal deadly wounds. His death thus seems more unlikely.
Gepeto @23 – The argument against “Tien wouldn’t have died so easily if he were a Surgebinder” is sorta countered by the fact that he didn’t die of wounds received – he died from a single killing blow. No chance to summon Stormlight to heal a deadly wound if you’re already dead.
FWIW, Pattern had joined Shallan some time before these events; they were already well along in their bonding by the time Gavilar was assassinated (roughly the same time as Shallan killed her mother). If another Cryptic joined Tien after Pattern joined Shallan, Pattern might not have known about it. Or… it might not have been a Cryptic. If what Shallan did was a form of Surgebinding, and we don’t know which Surge she used, Tien could have been a proto- Truthwatcher, Lightweaver, or Elsecaller.
Meh. There’s too much we don’t know!
Ways,
not to discourage you from asking your Gaz-question, but the answer to your “specific” question might me “it’s a big deal for Gaz” or some such ;)
RL is busy, I hadn’t had time to reRead WoK, but IMO it’s “no big deal”. It shows a state of mind. Having a blind spot, due to his missing eye facilitates his paranoia, which he has, because he has depts to some not-so-nice people. If I’m right, it’s not really important what he sees, it’s imaginary …
It won’t hurt to ask of course :)
The fertile suggestion made that the ‘surprising’ user of the illumination surge was Tien continues to engage my attention. While Tien was hardly proficient at using or even aware of his powers, he used the surges of illumination and progression to engage Kaladin and to cure him of his depressive state during Weepings. If so, then he was an incipient Truthwatcher like Ym who used primarily the progression surge. It also seems that the spren (Glys) manifesting this set of powers started with Tien, then migrated to Ym at Tien’s death, then to Renarin at Ym’s death. While the young Tien was hardly aware of what he could do, Ym was an accomplished healer and Renarin had visions of the future. Ym’s claim to Truth (as in Truthwatcher) was manifested in his world view which bore the secret and basis of creation. In his view, the Creator knew everything but had experienced nothing. Creating and interacting with intelligent life was aimed at providing such experiences.
Re: Ym and Renarin being TruthwatcherS
I think we should be a little cautious before we assume that Ym’s use of Progression makes him a Truthwatcher. And that Renarin is also definitely a Truthwatcher.
It looks pretty straightforward, right? We’ve seen Lift use Progression (both Growth and Regrowth); we’ve seen Lift’s characterization of Wyndle; we’ve seen Ym only use Progression (Regrowth) and we’ve seen Ym’s characterization of the spren with him. Only Edgedancers and Truthwatchers have Progression, and Ym and spren seem different than Lift and spren. As for Renarin: well Renarin joins Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan near the end of WoR and proclaims himself a Truthwatcher.
So Ym and Renarin must both be Truthwatchers, right?
But Brandon often likes to allow us to draw erroneous conclusions from what we consider obvious and blatant information, while hiding other (less-blatant) information in plain sight.
1. Just remember that we’re also informed that Lift is able to do things with Wyndle that the average
Edgewalker(too much Malazan) Edgedancer is unable to do. She shouldn’t be able to touch Wyndle, as he has barely any substance in the Physical realm and dwells mostly in the Cognitive. Speculation has it that the Nightwatcher gave her the ability to better interact with the Cognitive realm.2. Spren appear different in the Cognitive Realm then they do in the Phyical Realm (evidenced by Pattern’s appearance). It’s possible that how Lift perceives Wyndle is different than how any other Rosharian (like say, Ym) would perceive an Edgedancer spren.
3. When describing Wyndle and Ym’s spren, Brandon makes sure to reference crystal and plant-like growing for each. (To be fair, Wyndle is described as “a thin, twisting trail of vines…made of dark plant…bits of clear crystal peeking out,” while Glys is described as “specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam…light crept upward from it, like small plants growing” and later “light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts”). It could just be coincidence, or because both share the Progression Surge; but there also could be more to it…
4. We never see Renarin’s spren. No description of it whatsoever. Pattern and Syl are both in close proximity to Renarin and never mention seeing an unusual spren around him.
5. We only think Renarin is a Truthwatcher because Renarin tells us so. (And, to be fair, also because the Chapter 89 Herald symbols include Paliah, and Truthwatchers are the KR order associated with her).
I’m not saying that Renarin and Ym may not both turn out to be Truthwatchers (although in Ym’s case, it would be more in the past tense-referral-sense). I’m just saying, when it comes to the KR affiliation of Ym and Renarin’s, we have significantly less amount of evidence that confirms their KR order then with Kaladin, Shallan, Lift, Dalinar and Jasnah.
I don’t think we should state it as fact until we know for certain (via the books or WoB).
STBLST @26 – I think that’s a mighty big stretch, to assume that Glys has been the one and only spren for Tien, and Ym, and Renarin. Also, Brandon has said that depression is not a phyiscal injury or ailment that can be cured by Stormlight; it’s a mental disorder and not subject to Progression the way physical injury would be. (I can find the exact quote if you need it, but not tonight.)
KiManiak @27 – first the picky proofreading: in #3
…while Glys is described as “specks of light…
I think you mean Ym’s unnamed spren; Glys is Renarin’s spren who, as you say, we’ve never had described to us in any way.
As for the rest, I think it far more likely that Ym
iswas an Edgedancer than a Truthwatcher – in large part based on the same evidence you present in 1-3.However, I think we should take Renarin’s Order as “for certain” – that he is, in fact, a Truthwatcher. We know Truthwatchers are one of the Orders, and Renarin gives the same evidence as the other three in Ch. 89: their spren told them. Kaladin was told by Sylphrena; Shallan was told by Pattern; Dalinar was told by the Stormfather. Lift also was told by Wyndle, and confirmed by Nalan (for what that’s worth). Jasnah hasn’t even stated her Order herself; we assume she’s an Elsecaller because Wit asked her why she needed to Elsecall out in the middle of nowhere, because she apparently shares only the Surge of Transformation with Shallan, and because Brandon has more or less confirmed the way we’ve filled in the Surgebinding diagram. I’m willing to accept that as sufficient proof that she really is an Elsecaller, even though neither the text nor WoB has confirmed that in so many words (that I know of).
The fact that we weren’t in Renarin’s head to hear the conversation with Glys doesn’t, IMO, invalidate his statement. Unless we get a canon statement that he is not a Truthwatcher and is either lying or lied to, I believe we should accept it as truth. (The assumption that Truthwatchers use Progression and Illumination is also based on Brandon’s nod to the way fans have filled out the diagram, not because he said it flat out. It’s certainly not in the book.)
Ym is about 50% speculation; Renarin is not.
Following… Great speculation all, I just don’t have anything to say.
I freely admit that my last post was speculation based largely on an assumption of Tien’s capabilities and potential. The most speculative part is the assumption of the same spren serially for Tien, Ym, and Renarin. That is based purely on the notion of an exclusive nahel bond between a spren and a person and what would happen if the bonded person dies. I don’t consider that Brandon’s distinction between physical and mental injuries precludes the use of the progression surge to cure Kaladin’s state of mind during Weepings. I consider Kaladin as exhibiting withdrawal symptoms due to the absence of stormlight, rather than showing symptoms of conventional depression. If so, then an infusion of Tien’s internal ‘light’ could restore Kaladin’s vitality. Ym gives no indication of being an Edgedancer since he doesn’t display the surge of friction, even to save himself from Nale’s deadly pursuit. In contrast, Ym’s spren delivers desperate advice about using stormlight to escape Nale. I gather that means to create an optical illusion to hide from his attacker. I, therefore, label him as a Truthwatcher.
Wet@28 – Whoops! Totally meant “Ym’s” spren and not “Glys” when describing… well, Ym’s spren in point #3. Thanks for the catch and the correction.
As for Renarin and his KR order/spren, my point is to just proceed with caution. We’ve seen/read the interaction with Kaladin and his spren, Shallan and her spren, Lift and her spren, Jasnah and her spren and even (briefly) Dalinar with his spren. Other than Jasnah, each of those characters had their KR order mentioned/confirmed onscreen by a separate entity that had some knowledge of the KR organization. (You can even include Jasnah if you like, since Hoid refers to her actions as “Elsecall” in the epilogue.)
Renarin was different. He tells the reader he has bonded a spren; tells us the spren’s name and the name of his KR order. Now, based on Renarin’s reactions when summoning a “dead” Shardblade and Renarin not wearing glasses anymore, we’re given some evidence to believe that he has indeed bonded a spren. But the reader hasn’t been shown any other evidence to verify that the rest of what they are told is true. It’s a matter of “tell” vs “show.”
My point is Brandon is a great storyteller and very tricky. He leads the reader to form conclusions based on suspect evidence all of the time (Steelheart and Firefight are great examples of us “knowing” something about Epics based on what a character tells us, only to be shown that we were wrong; there’s also Mistborn with the original metal count or the Inquisitors, Warbreaker with Vivienne’s in-City experiences, etc). Shoot, at the end of TWoK someone with dark eyes and a massive Shardblade calls himself “Talenel’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty,” but to this day Brandon continues to have the reader question whether that is indeed the Herald Taln.
Bringing it back to Renarin: having not been given a Renarin POV in WoR, we don’t “know” much about Renarin and his spren; we are going based just on something that one character has told us, without any other supporting information to support what they say. Now, I’m not necessarily saying that things won’t end up being exactly as we’ve been led to believe; maybe Renarin is indeed a Truthwatcher with a spren named Glys like he said. But we haven’t been shown Glys, or Renarin using Progression or even sucking Stormlight.
I’m just encouraging caution when presenting Renarin’s statement as established fact, until we have a little more.
(of course, this is easily countered if we have WoB that Renarin is indeed a Truthwatcher :-p )
Hm, I don’t remember Pattern saying that he was the only Cryptic who was sent/decided to cross over. Where is it stated?
IIRC only Syl and Ivory told their respective bondmates that they were the only ones of their kind to cross and that they did it against the will of their spren societies/superiors. Pattern clearly had support and help of other Cryptics as seen in the sequence of the haunting of Shallan by several of them in Kharabranth.
Personally, I think that Tien, if he was an incipient Radiant, would have fit Lightweavers the best, what with his strong artistic inclination, demonstrated by the carving of that surprisingly lifelike wooden horse, and his ability to lift everybody’s spirits. I really don’t see anything Truthwatchery about him.
Even disregarding his many character flaws, one of the main reasons I strongly doubt that Elokhar is on the path to becoming a Lightweaver is that he has shown no artistic inclinations whatsoever so far. Of course, a mismatch is always possible, like in that story of a warrior being bonded by a Cryptic, which prevented their progress towards Radiancy beyond a certain point. But still.
I would need to re-read most of WoR to find back the place where Pattern mentions such thing… It could also be I misinterpreted what I read. Perhaps someone else would be able to shed more light on it?
I do agree that if Tien had been a proto-Radiant, Lightweaver was the logical choice, considering his artistic abilities. My concern about him being such are mostly related to Pattern’s words and his timely death. Remove these issues and I no problem seeing him as such. It is an entirely believable plot twist.
Elhokar I am not so sure… Not only does he not exhibit any artistic inclination, he also does not exhibit any Radiant associated qualities. All of our Radiants have, so far, followed a similar path including a break down followed by a desire to better themselves and those around them using their unique set of skills. I have yet to see this about Elhokar would I have always pictured as a self-centered individual prone to blame everyone else for his mistakes while refusing to actually acknowledge he may be the one doing them to begin with. These traits seem highly un-Radiant to me, but it remains my personal interpretation. I also do believe there are others reasons to explain the presence of not one, but multiple cryptics (if cryptics they are, I do not believe we have definite proof on that matter) in his mirror.
Remember that Shallan also saw multiple Cryptics in TWoK – she constantly referred to “figures” in the plural. In her first viewing of them,
Later, in Chapter 49, she sees/draws five of them, so it’s not like Pattern is alone in appearing to Shallan. (There are more examples; I won’t cite them all.) That is not proof that there are more of them out and about bonding people, but looks to me like proof that Pattern is not being shunned by the rest of the Cryptics for bonding to Shallan, at the very least.
As for Elhokar, don’t forget that so far, we’ve observed people who are some way along the path to Radiant-hood already. Perhaps Elhokar has been chosen for reasons other than those you expect. We have a strong tendency to assume that anyone who might become a Radiant is chosen because they are “honorable” – like Kaladin, in fact. I’ve come to think that’s far, far away from the real reason they are chosen.We keep looking at the First Ideal from an Honorspren perspective and forgetting that other Orders may have a different angle on it.
In the case of Cryptics, we have Pattern’s word for it that he was drawn to Shallan for her “lies” – which seems to mean something to do with her ability to deal with non-literal truth (metaphor), as well as outright lies, and her ability to manipulate things that are true and not-true to achieve greater truth. We also know that to become a Lightweaver, one is required to speak Truths as a means to greater self-awareness. (All that is in the text of WoR.) That doesn’t entirely match up with Sylphrena’s approach – and is probably part of the reason Honorspren and Cryptics don’t get along too well. (If you look at the TWoK endpaper diagram, you can see that they’re opposite each other on the layout. I suspect that is not mere coincidence.)
Why should we not be looking at Elhokar as one who has the ability to get creative with truth & lies, and therefore as appealing to the Cryptics? If he hasn’t progressed very far along the path to self-awareness, not even so far as the First Ideal, that doesn’t mean he’s not appealing to a Cryptic; it just means he hasn’t reached the point where he breaks enough to allow the bond to start forming. For that matter, he reached an interesting place in his life, including his self-awareness, near the end of WoR. I think it’s quite possible that he could be reaching (or even, have reached) the point where he’s ready to get started.
As for the “we haven’t seen him show any skill in drawing” argument, there are a couple of points to be made. If you look at what we know of the Order itself:
One, the order included many who pursued the arts. Not necessarily all of them did so.
Two, there are a variety of “arts” listed, and they don’t all have to do with drawing skill or anything similar.
Three, the things in this list have (since the Recreance) become the province of women and ardents; if Elhokar possessed any skill in those areas, it would not likely have even emerged, much less been pursued in any way.
So I don’t think we can exclude Elhokar from possibly becoming a Lightweaver based on any argument I’ve seen so far. The most we can say is that he doesn’t look like he is a Knight Radiant (or proto-Radiant) yet.
@34: I am not disputing the facts at hand. I understand the case can effectively be made for Elhokar and the arguments in favor most likely surpass the arguments against.
However, I would say I do not feel Elhokar has it in him to become a Radiant. I agree this is not an arugment nor a fact, simply an impression, a feeling, a vibe I get when I read his character. Was it intentional from Brandon I should be feeling this way? Possibly. Somehow, the possiblity of Elhokar becoming a Radiant leaves a very sour taste in my mouth… It feels completely wrong, to me. Off. Not right. Albeit this is highly suggestive and I certainly do not expect you (or anyone for that matter) to back me up with this.
I understand not all knights will be as honorable as Kaladin, but I do expect them to be more than your average person, each in their own personal way. Again, I do not see that in Elhokar. Again, this is highly subjective and not objective.
However, if I look at the facts, just the facts, and I shrink down my gut feeling to his minimum…
He sees unidentified things in his mirror that are being remiscient of Shallan’s experience in WoK. This is clue, but not a complete as we cannot know for sure what they are and there intentions. They may come to him for other reasons, yet unknown.
He has not exhibit any artistic talent. However, it could be, as you say, because it was repressed due to him being male or it could be not all Lightweavers are artists at heart.
What else….
He has paranoia and is willing to act upon it such as to create the perfect lie to enthralled everyone on his phobie. This behavior could be linked to the Lightweaver search of truths within lies.
Based on the facts and just the facts, I do agree we cannot discredit him as a potential proto-Radiant nor can we confirm, without a doubt, that he is. Since the factuals cannot give us confirmation, one way or another, I will have to side with my feelings and impressions, meaning I do not picture him as such nor do I wish to see him as such.
Of course, I do not expect my feelings to convince anyone. I am merely sharing my thoughts on the matter as I like to hear other people’s thoughts.
Heh. It reminds me a little of some conversations I had just before WoR came out. There were some people grumbling about a book centered on Shallan, because after TWoK they really disliked her. At one point, I said,
Not having read any further than the rest of you yet, I can’t make the same guarantee about Elhokar, but it wouldn’t at all surprise me if the same becomes true for him. At some point we’ll see more deeply into his thought processes and his past, and we’ll see him differently. We might come to absolutely hate him, or we might come to like him; it depends on what Brandon does with him. For now, we simply don’t know enough to judge him impartially, so we can only react to what we’ve seen of him.
@36: Whereas what you said is asolutely true, I feel the more the story progress, the more I get invest into other characters. It does not nullify the possibility I may end up rooting for Elhokar, but the more books we read, the more polarized we are bond to get on these characters.
After one book, I wanted to keep on reading about Kaladin as I truly enjoyed his plot line in WoK. I found I did not enjoy it so much in WoR. Instead I found myself being pleasently surprised by Shallan and Adolin. However, the fact remains I am much more invest in the story now than I ever were after reading WoK. I now have my favorites and it is them I selfishly want to keep reading about.
Overal I would say I did not have many expectations upon reading WoR, but I do have expectations now. Of course, Brandon will write his story as he sees it fit, but it will not stop me for wishing for certain tagents to be taken.
As for Elhokar specifically, I would prefer to read the story were he ends prey to the bad side due to his weaknesses as opposed to him becoming yet another Kohlin Radiant. People have made the same argument for Adolin, but there is such a strong KR vibe about him, I cannot ignore it (again I do not expect people to feelt the same vibes I feel). However, this is just me wishing and I am sure whatever Brandon has in store won’t disapoint.
What timing! Here’s a relevant Q&A from the Newnan signing today:
Q. Shallan’s drawings showed multiple cryptics. Were there other cryptics accompanying Pattern at that time?
A. Yes
Q. Did they approve of what Pattern was doing?
A. Yes. In this the cryptics are partially similar to what was going on with Wyndle, where there is a group effort to connect with humans (spurred by the actions of a few individual spren), in contrast to the hesitancy evidenced by (e.g.) honorspren.
I just saw this one as well…. So the fact Elhokar is seeing multiple cryptics as opposed to just one is not an argument against him becoming a Radiant.
Sight. This was one of my arguments.
I am not sure how I feel about him eventually becoming a Radiant… Quite bad I would say. I sincerely wonder where Brandon is going with this.
Wetlandernw @38:
Thanks for the quote! So, there is really no reason to think that Shallan was/is the only incipient Lightweaver, ditto Lift and the Edgedancers.
As to your earlier points about spren criteria for bonding – personally, I never thought that Syl and the honorspren standards should be our lithmus test there, as Jasnah’s Ivory clearly has no problems with a spot of properly rationalised murder (that assassination that she was about to order in the WoR prologue clearly wasn’t the first time for her).
Nevertheless, I can only agree with Gepeto that Elokhar lacks something that all the other incipient Radiants seem to have. I didn’t particularly like Shallan in WoK because she seemed to be so tropy and unintentionally unfunny, but I saw that she clearly had seeds of greatness or whatever in her even then. And yes, Sanderson has managed a truly magnificent character exploration with her, to the extent that she is now my favourite among the PoVs.
But even Renarin, who has been a PoVless bit character so far, I can see why he would become a Radiant. I really saw nothing like this in our puppet king. I too, don’t really want him to become a Radiant, because in his case it would feel like merely a hereditary privilege, unlike his relatives, where it feels (more) earned and believable within the framework.
I don’t feel as strongly about it as Gepeto, as even if I get attached to a character (Jasnah forever!), I don’t mind others sharing the limelight. It is just that to me in Elokhar’s case it would feel contrived. And really, all other possible candidates seem far more interesting and natural fits for the calling.
I also really like the artistical conection of the Lightweavers and don’t want a brute warrior to muscle in on things ;).
And IIRC, not all art is forbidden to men in Vorinism. Hoid’s music and singing doesn’t cause any scandal.
And most applied arts are likely performed by men, because the safehand deal would really hinder a woman trying to create a mosaic or a carving, etc. So, Elkhar likely could have some acceptable-ish artistically oriented hobby, if he was so inclined.
@40: I am happy to see other people share, to an extend, by unease about Elhokar’s potential radianhood.
It is hard for me to put in words my feelings about Elhokar or to come up with a plausible argumentation as to why I think him so inadequate. I would venture myself into stating other Radiants we have seen so far, have shown this ability to inspire others into bettering themselves. Elhokar is not by a far margin an inspiring figure nor do I see him having the potential to become one.
I would also argue all other Radiants have strong qualities that propelled them through their breaking points: protection for Kaladin, creativity for Shallan, dedication to the Way of Kings for Dalinar, etc. All have decidated themselves into helping others: the bridgemen for Kaladin, her family for Shallan, the other Highprinces for Dalinar, although the later do not consider they need help even if they do. They have not been seen to act selfishly, more selflessly, and the one time Kaladin walks on the path of selfhisness: he loses his bond.
Elhokar, on the other hand, seems solely inanimated by a desire to gain more authority and more power, albeit very personal goals. He does not strike to become a better king for the good of his people, but in order to better his own personal image. In other words, he is selfish. He puts himself first, his subjects last or this is how I read him.
However, these arguments are very personal and highly based on my comprehension of the text at end. It remains very subjective and tainted by my personal views of Elhokar, which are not favorable based on what I have gathered about his persona.
I also agree with pre-WoR Shallan, who may have been under developped, but still showed promises. Renarin is badly explained Radian to me, but I believe Brandon has left things open enough to come-up with a plausible path for him. We do not know much about Renarin, but he seemed like a decent well-intentioned kid, so I would say he does fit within the view I currently have of the Radiants.
I also agree, of all potential characters, Elhokar seems the less plausible fit for radianhood. However, in my views, the best possible fit for radianhood, of all Kohlins including those already Radiants, was Adolin, but he is the less plausible to make it there. There is just something endearing about that boy… He has tremenduous potential, providing he figures out how to channel adequately his emotional side which is remiscient of the difficulties other Radiant have had with their own persona.
I also would prefer if the Lightweaver remained an order comprised of various artists. You make a good point with bringing forward carving and other male related artistic inclinations.
I agree that up to this point, Elhokar has been less than inspiring from our perspective. However…
Right there, and in fact all through this section of Ch. 80, he takes a huge step toward self-awareness. He won’t proceed to do much about it in the remainder of this book, but I’m not ready to write him off as a bad job just yet. Sure, it’s possible that he’ll continue to thrash around in his paranoia and self-centeredness. It’s also possible that, with the developments in the last few chapters, he’ll start seeing things (including himself? including the shadows in the mirrors?) very differently.
I just can’t help thinking there’s still hope for him, though I suspect he may go farther down in order to “break” and then move upward from there. I agree that it would be lame for the guy who threw the temper tantrum in Ch. 57/58 to suddenly turn out to have a spren bond, and I don’t believe Brandon would do that. But for the guy who acknowledged his failures in Ch. 80, who was nearly killed in Ch. 84, who was hidden with the Herdazians in Ch. 87… for that guy to learn some humility and self-awareness, and then step up to the challenge? I think there’s room for possibility there.
@82: About the excerpt you posted…
There you were, such a champion, so loved. And everyone hates me. I should have gone to fight myself.
I noticed there were many I within the text… Was Elhokar truly concerned about his cousins faith or is he more concerned about his public image? He does not congratulate (or thanks) Kaladin for saving his cousins from a sure death, he feels bad because the ordeal made him appear bad. A darkeyed rushed to the rescue while the mighty king remained seated… I have not seen any indications he truly worried about his cousins worst, he refused to lent his blade to Dalinar when asked for it. I believe a true Radiant would put the life of those at risk before its own personal image. However, I will admit my view of the Radiant may not be accurate and is heavily tainted by what I feel is right which does not constitute an argument.
I agree his opening towards Kaladin could be accounted as a step forward in the matter of self-awareness, but it felt short to me. Adolin and Renarin are not just some random lighteyes: they are family. His lack of concern about their well-being is astonishing, to say the least. Had he truly expressed concerned for his younger relatives, I would have felt differently, but he didn’t. In his entire rent, I mostly saw a king worried about his self-image and how a lowly darkeyed made him look bad. However, this is, again, my personal interpretation.
I agree he could still break further down, he could still improve himself. Everyone deserves a second change, I strongly believe in this. I would not thus put it pass him. However, I am concerned about the fact the sprens seem interested in him now as opposed as in the future… Wouldn’t make more sense if the sprens come forward once he truly starts becoming a better person? Didn’t Syl state she was attracted by Kaladin’s effort to protect his crew? Didn’t Pattern state he was attracted by Shallan’s ability to create perfect lies? On which ground would a spren be attracted to Elhokar as he is now, worst as he was in WoK? Which quality as he expressed that would warranty him a bond?
These are all questions making me doubt the cryptics observing him intend to bond him. There are just too many uncertainties around Elhokar combined to my negative response to his character to make me wish for him to become a Radiant. Elhokar becoming a Radiant would break the many assumptions I have come to make about the Radiants as he does not fit the profile I have come to believe was required. It could be Radiants are not what I assumed them to be, but as of now, Elhokar brings up a very negative vibe into me.
I am not stating it is impossibe, just illogical when compared to the cases at end.
I’m with Wet on Elhokar being a possible proto-Radiant. His weaknesses to this point have been obvious, but the incident in Kaladin’s room shows much promise. Elhokar is insightful and honest in his assertions. His desire to improve is such that he stoops to paying Kaladin a call when the latter doesn’t respond to his invitation. His recourse to drinking after Kaladin’s severe criticism doesn’t impress. Yet, he forbears from punishing Kaladin for his temerity. Then, too, there is the matter of the symbol heads that he had often seen before Kaladin started his palace duties. That is an indication of spren interest. His seeming rapid recovery from what appeared to be a serious wound could also be considered an indication of stormlight healing – much like Dalinar’s earlier battle wounds.
There’s nothing that indicates Radiants are paladins or Jedi or even particularly nice people (Jasnah!). I think it’s very tempting to to extrapolate from Windrunners that the Radiants are going to be Neutral/Lawful Good types, but there’s nothing that says they can’t come from a broader spectrum of alignments. So Elhokar could be selfish, spoiled and a terrible king but still become a Radiant. Just not a Windrunner.
STBLST @44 – Oh, good point on Elhokar healing quickly! Either it’s a continuity error we all missed, or he was healing better than he “should.” I’ll assume the latter. :)
Noblehunter @45 – Exactly. It’s a weird artifact of the way Sanderson has introduced the Radiants – we’ve developed certain expectations based on Kaladin’s personality and experience, but we have to be careful not to assume that this is a pattern applicable to all the Orders. I’m not quite sure if it’s a bug or a feature, but it’s there, and I think it will keep whacking us upside the head until we get it.
In fact, not only should we guard ourselves from transferring assumptions from one Order to another, we have to be careful not to assume that every individual within an Order will have the same personality, skills, attitudes, or experiences as the first one we met. Knights Radiant aren’t made with cookie cutters.
Wetlandernw, thanks for the approval rating. I often have the impression of just seconding your view in other language. Gepeto: I believe that you are misinterpreting Elhokar’s actions at that unfair duel between Adolin and opponents, and his reference to that incident later at Kaladin’s quarters. In that reference, he acknowledges his fault in not entering the fray to protect his cousin against the gang of opponents. It is also understandable that a king would fear to enter a conflict in which he can be embarassed, or worse. He also had a legitimate argument against lending his shardblade to Dalinar. Fighting shardbearers without similar protection and strength/mobility enhancement is very dangerous. Elhokar is properly concerned that this incident was created to draw Dalinar into the duel in order to kill him. Even Dalinar took such admonition to heart despite witnessing the likely maiming or killing of his sons.
From page 801 of WoR:
“You want too much of me,” he snapped at her as he reached the other side of the chasm. “I’m not some glorious knight of ancient days. I’m a broken man. Do you hear me, Syl? I’m broken.”
She zipped up to him and whispered, “That’s what they all were, silly.”
It seems to me, if we take Syl’s response here as being truth, that the simple fact is that Radiants were emotionally broken people. People who had been broken, but then instead of lying down and giving up, stood straight, shouldered the weights, and found they could continue. And honestly, I personally find that FAR more heroic than the naturally-honorable, never-questioning, classically perfect heroic figure who has never had to face personal failure. As laudable as that is, I don’t think it takes nearly the courage required of the broken man finding his strength.
And I can understand why Spren would be naturally attracted to that sort of person. If some Spren are created by human experience, is not the sort of earth-shattering, person-breaking experience the sort of thing that would act like flame to a moth?
So – is Elhokar broken? I don’t know – I don’t know enough of his back-story to speculate. If not, between his drinking and personal failures, he’s certainly on the path towards being broken. A case could easily be made for each and every one of the four declared Radiants having been broken – certainly Kaladin & Shallan, Dalinar by the weight of his guilt over previous war-crimes, and Renarin for his self-recrimination due to his weakness. Was Jasnah broken? I daresay she was, based on the little we’ve been in her head. If Elhokar was, or ends up being broken, I for one will welcome him into the circle of Radiants with open arms.
However, I’m not ready to assume that the spren – if that’s what he’s seeing – are even of Honor/Cultivation, let alone that they are Cryptics. It’s not impossible that there are other symbol-headed spren. Cryptics seems like the easiest answer, and is therefore one that I immediately question – Brandon is wont to turn easy assumptions on their heads. Which brings me to a comment Elhokar made to Kaladin during their chat:
“When you came, the shadows went away.”
Why? Why did the shadows go away? Because Cryptics don’t like Honorspren, so they fled? That seems tenuous. Or is it that Elhokar was seeing Odium-spren of a type analogous to Cryptics? Perhaps the Mediationform spren, sent to deceive and usher in the desolation by distracting the King?
Bah. We simply have too little information to make a reasonably informed guess as to what is going on with the King, and speculation based on wild theory is never a good idea.
BrandonO @48 – Well. I like that. “It seems to me, if we take Syl’s response here as being truth, that the simple fact is that Radiants were emotionally broken people. People who had been broken, but then instead of lying down and giving up, stood straight, shouldered the weights, and found they could continue.”
That makes a lot more sense, overall, than merely someone who suffered trauma of some sort – and what exactly is “enough” trauma to constitute “broken” then? So if it’s not merely suffering, but getting up and going on… And it fits so well with something we just covered in Chapter 74, where Kaladin compares Shallan’s strength to a spearhead with a few dings that show it’s been tested and found true. Oh, I am so copying this to that discussion!! :D