Following J.J. Abrams’ statement that Star Wars should feature a broader spectrum of sexuality in the upcoming films, Mark Hamill suggested in an interview with the Sun that Luke Skywalker might be gay.
On the positive side—Mark Hamill is an awesome guy. On the practical side—I have one very specific problem with this idea….
To provide context, here is Hamill’s full quote on the issue:
“But now fans are writing and ask all these questions, ‘I’m bullied in school… I’m afraid to come out’. They say to me, ‘Could Luke be gay?’ I’d say it is meant to be interpreted by the viewer.
“If you think Luke is gay, of course he is. You should not be ashamed of it. Judge Luke by his character, not by who he loves.”
The sentiment is sweet, if not particularly useful on the representation front; allowing fans to “decide for themselves” if Luke is gay is a perfectly valid exercise, but still not helpful in giving them a canonical example they can point to when they’re looking for role models. If everyone simply decides at their leisure, it also means that straight fans of Star Wars never have to confront the possibility of Luke Skywalker as a gay man—they are more likely to align him to what they relate to and see most often.
Still, if Abrams is heeded and the future filmmakers decide to reveal a queer character in the upcoming films, Luke is a possibility for that reveal. (I know, he was smooched by Leia. One weird kiss with your sister does not a straight man make.) And while, as a queer person, it would mean the world to me for my childhood hero to “come out” as a gay man, I’m not sure it’s such a great idea all by itself.
The reason? Well, mostly because it would make him into Albus Dumbledore 2.0.
While I’m a fan of the backstory given to Albus Dumbledore by J.K. Rowling (being that he was a gay man who never appears to have had a requited relationship due to his ill-considered crush on a dark wizard when he was barely out of his teen years), it would be a shame if he became a trope: the wise old sage of the current generation who carries a great deal of guilt on his shoulders, sacrifices most of his life out of a desire to combat evil, and also happens to be a gay man who never acts on any of his desires. Granted, there’s no reason why Luke couldn’t have had a relationship(s) in the time between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. But given the information left to us, it does seem more probable that Luke devoted his life to training other Jedi, and didn’t pursue romance in the midst of that work.
If he were suddenly revealed as a gay character in lieu of all that, his sexuality could be perceived by the audience as tragedy. Poor Luke Skywalker, who devoted his life to others and never got the things that he wanted for himself. Or worse, some might think that his current lot in exile could be blamed on his sexuality, that if he had been more “virtuous” he would have been spared the incredible pain he has experienced in his life. (And before you say that’s nonsense, there were fans of Harry Potter who believed that Dumbledore’s sexuality was meant to be a lesson against queerness; that the loss of Albus’ sister Ariana was meant to teach him “the cost” of what he wanted and how he felt.)
When Abrams brought up the need for queer characters in Star Wars, he said, “To me, the fun of Star Wars is the glory of possibility.” But possibility, at its core, is about expanding vernacular, not playing around with the current vocabulary. For Star Wars to embrace the “glory of possibility” in the same manner as every other fictional narrative is a dismal thought. Instead, fans are holding out for more—look through Star Wars tags on Tumblr and you’ll see posts running the gamut of possibility. What if Rey were asexual? What if there were interspecies relationships that involved humans? What about polyamorous households? Are there any trans Resistance pilots? These questions seem only logical for a universe that purports hundreds of species and worlds to explore. Being owned by the Disney juggernaut may be a barrier to these leaps forward—giant corporations tend to make all their decision based on the what-makes-the-most-money principle—but that shouldn’t prevent the creative minds behind these projects from shooting for the moon.
Which brings me to the fan favorite in the Who Should Be the New Queer Star Wars Character poll: Poe Dameron. Because I think that there are fans out there who don’t truly understand the appeal of Poe turning out to be gay (or even bi/pansexual) in the upcoming films. It’s not just that he has a chemistry with John Boyega’s Finn that can easily be read as serious flirtation. Poe Dameron is the total package—a confident, kind, anchored human being. He is sure of himself and the work that he’s doing, but more than that, he is dearly important to the Resistance and trusted by his friends and colleagues. There is an inherent happiness about Poe, a sparkly can-do attitude that gives the viewer hope.
For all those reasons, Poe is precisely the kind of character who would make an impeccable gay role model. (This is, of course, provided that he lives through the entire trilogy.) Also, Oscar Isaac is Latino and queer POC are woefully underrepresented in media of every kind, so we have another important reason. Finn and/or Rey would be excellent choices as well, but I’m convinced that fandom’s centeredness on the possibility of Poe being queer is no accident. LGBT+ fans are trying to communicate the sort of examples that we are often left without. The ones whose lives and backgrounds aren’t tragic, but uplifting. Who command respect and loyalty. Who are loved and offer their love in return, and aren’t punished for it. Who are allowed to be bubbly, emotional, and dynamic.
It’s also extremely relevant that Poe is in the “correct” age range to be considered a romantic lead by Hollywood standards. (While I do love the thought of an older Luke pursuing some gentleman after he finishes Rey’s training, I’m not holding my breath on a plotline like that coming true.) We cannot perpetuate the premise of an audience only being comfortable with queer people when those characters are seemingly celibate and detached. This stigma is even truer for gay men; because while a show or film can pass off a kiss between women as something “for the guys,” the fear of alienating a male audience often leads to the opposite where male couples are concerned. To have a character like Poe actively flirting with other men would have a huge impact on the broad audience that Star Wars has always garnered.
These are important aspects to delve into when we talk about the improvement of entertainment, even if they seem overly-specific. In this day and age, we know that representation shouldn’t simply be a list of boxes that we tick off one by one. No one should get praise for that. When creatives and companies think of these decisions as an appeasement or placation, they don’t broaden anyone’s horizons or create good stories. It’s not about reaching a quota or being behind (or ahead) of the curve. It’s not about feeling good that you “did your part.” It’s about abolishing laziness. It’s about making better choices that elevate marginalized voices. It’s about offering audiences enough variety in your cast of characters that every person can find the hero (or antihero or villain) that they need.
So while the idea of Luke Skywalker being gay is admittedly wonderful, decisions like these still demand careful consideration if future Star Wars films truly do commit to having queer cast members. These characters should benefit and enrich the landscape that they are a part of, invite people in rather than turn them away. They should veer from the current Hollywood-approved version of the queer experience, and offer fans a reflection of themselves that inspires. While it’s all speculation at the moment, the more audiences talk about what matters, the more likely we are to see change and avoid perpetuating depressing tropes.
Emmet Asher-Perrin does love the idea of Luke being gay, though. Without the tragedy. You can bug her on Twitter and Tumblr, and read more of her work here and elsewhere.
Well… Couldn’t Luke and Poe both be gay? A lot of those pitfalls of having to be a role model or representational figure for a particular group come from being the only role model in the story. For instance, look at the perennial troubles people have trying to write Wonder Woman well because she’s expected to an exemplar and ideal for all women and is thus constantly changing depending on what the current writers consider the ideal to be. If there are multiple characters that fit the category, and if they’re different from one another, then no single character’s shortcomings or foibles would necessarily be presumed to represent the entire group.
You took the character right out of my mouth, I was going to say Poe. Of course, I was going to say Poe and Finn, because they clearly have so much chemistry. And I know there’s supposed to be some little thing between Finn and Rey, but at this stage it could easily just be a strong bond developed between two people who saved each other. Plus, I am so, so, so sick of the whole “he gets the girl/she gets the guy” being the ultimate happy ending. Blech. There are other happy endings. Let’s have some of those.
I’m all for more good LGBT characters out there, but the way you’ve framed this article is pretty ridiculous. The headline is unrepentant clickbait, you almost totally ignore the point Mark Hamill was trying to make, and then you head off into a discussion about things that are *very* unlikely to happen based on nothing more than fanboy/girl imaginings and a joking statement from Oscar Isaac about how he played his character. Also, while I tire of seeing “tragic” gay characters, I don’t want to see a “perfect” one either, strutting around the galaxy blowing up TIE fighters and hittin’ on dudes, hair always perfect. You talk about not just “ticking off boxes” but that’s exactly what you’re doing when you suggest Oscar Isaac’s Poe would make a good gay character. Young enough? Check! Hot? Check! Represents POC? Check! Confident? Check!
Why does their sexually matter? If the character is bound to have a romance then maybe the info would be important. Does being gay/straight/pan/trans make them a better fighter? Make them more loyal to the resistance?
Poe/Luke in a May/December romance FTW?
There are two callbacks to Empire I’d like to see in Episode 8…
1) Leia: Rey, I am your mother.
2) Finn: I love you. Poe: I know.
One element of the original trilogy that The Force Awakens didn’t seem to have was romance. So if there was more to the Finn/Poe relationship, then that adds some nice subtext to those scenes.
But Luke’s interest in a girl is the spark that starts the action for the entire trilogy, so he doesn’t seem particularly gay. Unless he was also interested in following Biggs for the same reason.
Obviously, Luke was straight and happily married in the old EU (and with a ridiculous number of additional girlfriends and potential female love interests), but even in the new canon, he’s established as straight. Not just for his (now-super-awkward) interest in the Princess, but his romance with Fridgebait- er, Nakari in Heir to the Jedi.
So, “Plot-Twist-Gay!” Luke is pretty unlikely to happen.
Now, Poe I actually wouldn’t be surprised by.
In fairness to Mark Hammil I’ve always seen Luke as asexual. He was always the one being kissed in the A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back; and by the time we get to Return of the Jedi he’s just sort of serene and above it all. No hanky panky there. No siree.
But the way Poe Dameron keeps grinning at everyone?? Hello sailor! If he’s not Gay then he’s sending all the wrong signals.
As for Finn, it looks like he’s been raised amongst male soldiers so that might be more the case of “When in Sparta, do as the Spartans do”…
My money is on Rey hitting on Poe but he likes Finn, all for comedy. Big grins, nothing ever gets resolved and doubles all round. ?
I saw Luke as straight from the scene where Leia kissed him in Empire, and that wonderful look on his face afterward.
Past that, there never really was time for romantic relationships. Han and Leia fell in together, yeah, but they fell apart shortly thereafter.
@8 (and with a ridiculous number of additional girlfriends and potential female love interests)
Um, two, is not really a ridiculous amount. Aside from his wife Mara, there was Gaeriel of Bakura, and former Jedi Knight Callista. One of the things I actually really liked about the EU was that women were in the stories and didn’t feel like they were put there for Luke to fall in love with.
Also, great article Emily. I also agree with ChristopherLBennett, that
@Matthew (#3),
That criticism might make sense if Poe were still on the drawing-board, but at this point the character actually exists. We’ve already had an entire film of him strutting around the galaxy with perfect hair being perfect. Which means that you’re essentially saying, “This perfect character has to be straight, because it would be improbable for a gay character to be that perfect.” Not cool.
(If you have issues with a perfect, straight Poe, as well, then it’s totally fair to say something like, “Regardless of Poe’s sexuality, I hope they give him some flaws in the sequels, because what we saw of him in TFA was too perfect to be real.” But it’s messed up to suggest that gay characters need to be more realistic/imperfect than straight characters.)
@@.-@: We’ve seen at least fifteen instances of opposite-sex attraction or partnering in the movies: Han, Leia, Luke, Lando, Anakin, Padme, Owen, Beru, Bail Organa, Bail’s wife, Bazine, Grummgar, Jabba, Maz, and Finn. Add in the cartoons and the number goes through the roof. The “we don’t need to see the characters’ sexuality” argument doesn’t hold water.
I can certainly see Finn waking up in the medical bay in Episode VIII and Poe apologetically coming to tell him that he found a boyfriend, that he knows they maybe had something on the Star Destroyer but the new guy is really great, he hopes they can be friends…and after he walks away Finn sayin, “What?”
Frankly, I just don’t want them to make Luke a tragic ANYTHING character, aaaaah! But that ship has sailed and that’s another issue, haha.
I think Poe makes perfect sense and even on my first viewing I got that impression – it would seem natural and not like it was something forced. My personal opinion is that taking Luke, who is already an established character (and has been played as straight in previous movies what with his attraction to Leia, etc) would come off a bit as shoehorning. Maybe some of that is just the way we tend to view people as straight until we hear otherwise but with Luke (as opposed to Dumbledore where I think some of the subtext was subtly there) I think it would almost be the opposite type of issue. If a character is straight then that’s just as much a part of his identity so changing it feels awkward. It seems the best way to go forward is to look forward to new characters.
@11 – Well, there was Jem in the Dark Jedi comics (basically she gets fridged), there was some hinted romance (or at least a connection) with Akanah in the Black Fleet Crisis books and I thought Lumiya had appeared in the comics at some point as a love interest (until she betrayed them all). That said, the EU canon has been overwritten so they wouldn’t necessarily be beholden to that. Although I think the movies are enough to show that he’s at least attracted to women (bi couldn’t be ruled out, I suppose) unless they are going to retcon it and say he wasn’t actually attracted to Leia; it was just an act all along, he was pretending, etc. It just doesn’t fit naturally to me.
@9 – you realize being celibate isn’t the same as being asexual, right? I mean, I get that you weren’t saying Luke was celibate specifically (and the whole ‘are Jedi celibate’ is a whole nother debate), but people can be sexual and still be serene or able to devote their lives to some other vocation for a time (or for their whole life if that’s what they are called to); even if that happens to involve celibacy.
@4/tfmerritt: It doesn’t matter with regard to the characters, but it matters with regard to the audience. LGBT people have a dearth of positive role models in the media, and that’s harmful to young LGBT people who are growing up and trying to understand their identity, not to mention adults who are sick of being left out of the stories we all love. Imagine if there were no stories about the category of person you happen to be, or if all such characters were portrayed as villainous, tragic, or incidental. Would you really feel that it didn’t matter?
@7/theo16: I’m not sure Luke’s interest in rescuing the princess is necessarily a reflection of a desire to win her love. After all, the one thing he craved most was adventure, and rescuing a princess is a classic adventure situation. Sure, he said she was beautiful, but gay men can recognize female beauty as a matter of aesthetics. So his “romantic” interest could be more in the romance of what a beautiful princess in distress represents to an adventure-seeking youth, rather than in the romance of wooing a potential bedmate or lifemate.
Not to mention that sexual preference is not purely binary; there are plenty of gradations in between, plenty of people who are into one sex but at least somewhat curious about the other. And Luke was 19 in ANH; maybe he hadn’t fully settled on his sexual preference yet.
@9/SFBC.org: I was going to say that Luke being gay would handily explain why he didn’t pursue a relationship with Leia in the three years between ANH and TESB, but you’re right, being asexual could explain that too. Heck, an asexual person would make an ideal Jedi, under the parameters defined in the prequels.
I don’t see Rey hitting on Poe, though. The chemistry I noted in the film was between Rey and Finn. I’ve got nothing in principle against the idea of a Finn-Poe pairing, but that just felt like a buddy thing to me, while there were definite sparks with Finn and Rey. Although I can be relatively poor at recognizing same-sex subtext, so I don’t know if I’ll get the same impression once I see the film again.
@14/Lisamarie: Good point — we’ve already had one returning Original Trilogy character go in a “tragic” direction. I have no interest in seeing Luke go the way of Obi-Wan. Sure, the Hero’s Journey demands that the mentor die, but you know what? Screw the Hero’s Journey. Luke’s already done it, so we don’t need another one. Just having people like Rey and Finn and Poe as the heroes rather than the sidekicks or background players is breaking new ground, so let’s break some more.
@15: I don’t think Oscar Isaac was being particularly subtle about Poe’s interest in Finn. After he told Finn he looked good in his jacket, he did this: http://imgur.com/gallery/6AwoWpB
I think people have forgotten that Disney is now in charge of the Star Wars cannon.
Sure. Poe is a great candidate for a positive role model. Make him gay. Make everyone gay for each other and any sentient species for all I care. But, I would hope they wouldn’t wrap the storylines around exploring how fabulous of a time everyone is having.
That’s not what I think space opera is about.
I look to hard SciFi to explore deeper social issues, obviously through science fiction’s traditional lenses. Space opera is all about saving the prince(ss) and saving the universe, and I could care less if Poe is rescuing Kelly or… Kelly, so long as there’s some saving going on!
I think it would be tragic to slap a scarlet “G” on Poe and then have him go from being defined as a strong, successful character to one defined by and advanced through a sexuality narrative. Let him serve as an example of normalcy. He has relationships, he crashes Xwings and he blows up space stations, just like everyone else. Poe is just Poe. “Is Poe gay?” “Yup, did you see that bombing run he did on the Death Star 3.0? That was awesome.”
Just so long it isn’t done for the sake of having a non-straight character, that it makes sense in some other way. Diversity is excellent, but diversity for its own sake does not a story help (or a character develop).
Also, I thought it was obvious that Poe was at least bi, and his budding relationship with Finn was actually pretty interesting. Curious to see where, if anywhere, they take that.
Cheers,
zdrakec
@18/Scott: You’re arguing against a straw man and endorsing the exact same thing that I think most of us actually do want. Nobody is saying they want to see Luke or Poe defined by being gay. We should be past that kind of stereotyping by now, and it’s the last thing that LGBT people or allies would want to see, so you’re incredibly off base if you think that’s what’s being advocated. The hope is that Lucasfilm and Disney would just allow either or both characters to just happen to be gay, in the same way that Finn happens to be black or Poe happens to be Latino or Rey happens to be female. None of those characters are “defined by” those traits, but the simple fact that they have those traits is important — and the fact that those traits are treated as no big deal within the story is even more important. After all, that’s the goal — not to call out characters who aren’t hetero white males as something exceptional and noteworthy, but to treat them as normal. To acknowledge the simple reality that they are part of humanity and part of everyday life. Recognizing that gay people are part of the world is not “a sexuality narrative.” It’s just refusing to pretend that a portion of humanity does not exist.
It’s kind of a moot point when it comes to Luke. Whatever his sexuality, he’s a tragic character either way. He’s been that ever since his aunt and uncle were murdered and he was drawn into this destiny quagmire, with the daddy issues and whatnot. And I feel like this suggestion by Hamill is primarily due to Luke being such a bland character compared to someone like Han Solo. Maybe he wants to break free of the same old Hero’s Journey yawn fest and give Luke some real depth. Can’t blame him for that.
Kind of like Ridley Scott insisting Deckard in Blade Runner is a replicant (even though it diminishes the impact of the tears in rain speech, but I digress). If he isn’t one, he’s a very boring protagonist.
Can we make Rey have multiple personalities? Dark side and light side in her head? She needs something to make her interesting.
Just to put a little damper on the enthusiasm (which is what I do) it should be noted that
1) Disney is in charge of the franchise. How likely do you think it is they’ll drop an openly gay character into the mix? Unlikely, but possible. Now, how likely is it they’ll give him a love interest on screen? A little hint: not gonna happen.
2) J.J. Abrams talks a good game, but note that for all his talk, he didn’t put a gay character in his own movie. And his future with Star Wars pointedly does not include directing any more movies in the franchise.
@22/Ragnarredbeard: The culture is changing. The Disney Channel featured a lesbian couple in one of its live-action sitcoms two years ago. (The 5-year-old star of the show got death threats afterward. This is how conservatives “protect our morality.”) The Disney Channel cartoon Gravity Falls had its male sheriff and deputy characters embrace lovingly in its recent series finale, confirming a fan theory about their relationship. There’s also a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment in Frozen where a male shopkeeper’s family is seen to consist of a husband and two kids.
And other sources of children’s programming are getting more open about it too. The Legend of Korra ended with its two leading ladies holding hands in what was clearly not a platonic way. How to Train Your Dragon 2 had a throwaway line suggesting that one of its lead male adult characters had never married because he was gay. Cartoon Network’s Steven Universe features a trio of genderless aliens who all present as female, two of whom are overtly portrayed as being in love with each other, and its Adventure Time has heavily hinted that two of its major female characters have a romantic history (although, as with Korra, they’ve had to keep it implicit due to cultural mores).
All of these are shows and films aimed at kids. The Force Awakens was rated PG-13. So why shouldn’t it be possible?
Disney has a reputation as being pure and kid-friendly, but Disney is a corporation. Their overriding purpose is to make money. In the past, they resisted portraying diversity because it cost them viewers and therefore cost them money, but we’re in the middle of a massive generational shift in attitudes. Millennial audiences like inclusiveness in their entertainment. They respond positively to it. So the profit motive alone is driving broadcasters and movie studios to be more inclusive.
Keep in mind that Disney also owns ABC, and plenty of ABC shows have gay or lesbian characters. Disney the corporation is not the same thing as Walt Disney Studios or The Disney Channel. It’s a much larger entity that owns a lot of diverse entertainment businesses, one of which is Lucasfilm. It doesn’t force them all into a single mold.
I can easily see Poe being gay or no but I just don’t see it from Finn. Finn was extremely interested in whether Rey had a boyfriend back on Jaaku.
Back when it was under Lucas’s control, it took about twenty years for the Star Wars universe to introduce a single openly gay character (Juhani). It took several years more after that to introduce an undeniably gay couple (Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur). And it definitely felt as though these three characters were sneaked past Lucas rather than approved by him, and were only accepted because by the time they were discovered, attempting to erase them would have caused more trouble than allowing them to exist.
Contrast Disney’s new Star Wars franchise: only two years old and it already has one gay main character (Sinjir Rath Velus), one lesbian major POV character (Delian Mors), two major supporting characters being a gay couple (Aleksin and Pavol), one movie character who was raised by a lesbian couple for a while (Temmin Wexley, who stayed with his aunts Esmelle and Shirene for several years), … The YA novel Lost Stars alone includes dialogue implying that being gay and being trans aren’t considered in any negative way, be it by the Empire or by the Rebels. All of these deliberately and openly introduced into the universe. Not to mention that, contrary to Lucas’s hands-off-with-veto-power approach to the older expanded universe, Disney keeps a tight leash on its own expanded continuity.
So, yeah, Disney is doing rather well on LGBT characters in Star Wars so far, the only thing they haven’t done yet was to bring one from print to screen.
@@@@@ Jain (#12)
Let me clarify what I meant by “perfect” – I didn’t mean perfect in the sense that the character doesn’t have flaws, I meant perfect in the sense that he ticked off a bunch og the author’s little boxes on her wish list for what a gay character in Star Wars should be – young (or young enough), confident, representative of POC, etc. So there’s that. Also, I don’t really see Poe Dameron as a “perfect” character in the general sense – I mean, he definitely made some mistakes in TFA – got captured, got shot down, lost his droid, lost his jacket. :) I wish we’d seen a little more of him too, because I love me some Oscar Isaac (rent/stream “A Most Violent Year” if you haven’t)
I would love to see an LGBT character on the big screen in the Star Wars universe – but I don’t want one that’s already set up to have a tragic ending or one that’s shoehorned in because he ticks off a bunch of boxes that make him/her the most “acceptable” choice.
@23, yes, culture is changing. However, I would note that the Disney show (Good Luck Charlie) that had a lesbian couple on one episode (the next to last episode to ever air) was cancelled. The lesbian couple appears to have not helped ratings and was actually the subject of numerous protests. While its nice that Disney took a chance, its also worth noting the timing in the series they did it. They have not tried again on live TV or in a movie in the two years since that episode aired.
I would like to see diversity in all its forms too, but I’m not wearing the rose-colored glasses today.
@20 Christopher
I wasn’t aware I was arguing against anyone. I simply stated that:
1. I didn’t think there was an issue with revealing any of the characters were gay, but
2. I personally wouldn’t want them to try and form deep social commentary in a space opera, and
3. I hope they wouldn’t muck it up by (as usual) letting the fact a character was gay take over their narrative, rather than just be a fact of their overall being.
I never said anyone was advocating #3 here, but I’m sure you’ll agree history shows there’s a large chance of it happening again in yet another movie. It’s better to clearly articulate expectations of those writing these characters what we don’t want to see than have them fall short and have us wallpaper over it in 1,000 fanfic stories.
Fortunately, if it turns out to be Poe, we have a full movie of him just being a great all-around guy without having to suffer through any tired/”safe” gay stereotypes that might have been introduced if the decision was made pre-movie 7.
@27/Ragnarredbeard: And as I said, it’s a mistake to confuse The Disney Channel or Walt Disney Studios for the corporation named The Walt Disney Company that owns them both and also owns Lucasfilm, ABC, Marvel, etc. All these media conglomerates tend to name themselves after the studios and networks they own, making it easy to confuse the owners with the owned, but it’s important to keep the distinctions in mind. (Honestly, I should’ve led with that. Bringing in The Disney Channel was a bad example, because it encouraged that very confusion.) Between characters like Annalise Keating on How to Get Away With Murder, Mitchell and Cameron on Modern Family, Joey Gutierrez on Agents of SHIELD, and Jeryn Hogarth on Jessica Jones, we’ve seen proof that being owned by The Walt Disney Company does not preclude production companies like ABC and Marvel from featuring LGBT characters, so it makes no sense to assume that Lucasfilm would be under more severe restrictions.
@28/Scott: “I personally wouldn’t want them to try and form deep social commentary in a space opera”
First off, that’s insulting to the entire genre. Why the hell shouldn’t there be social commentary in space opera? How dare you imply that space opera or science fiction is less entitled to tell intelligent or thoughtful stories than any other genre? I wouldn’t expect it of Star Wars specifically, but that doesn’t entitle you to paint the entire genre with the same brush.
Second, nobody’s saying “deep social commentary” and nobody’s saying anything about “taking over a narrative.” Merely including gay people as a normal and unremarkable part of everyday life is not some involved storyline. This isn’t the ’80s or ’90s when gay people were only featured in Very Special Episodes. That’s not the way it works anymore. Characters like Joey and Hogarth and the rest, or Captain Singh on The Flash or Curtis on Arrow, are not the center of deep, involved storylines about the fact of their gayness. They’re simply included along with everyone else, participating in storylines normally the same as everyone else, and the fact that their partners happen to belong to their own gender is a complete non-issue; it’s simply something that happens to be the case. When the characters in the Central City PD got excited about their captain’s upcoming wedding, it was treated no differently than a heterosexual wedding. When Curtis introduced his husband to Oliver Queen, it was given no more special attention than if he’d been introducing his wife. And both of these were just one part of their characterization. Curtis happens to have a husband, but mainly his role in the show is to be a scientist and inventor working for Felicity Smoak and serving as a confidante and aide to her at PalmerTech. He just happens to have a personal life alongside his professional life, like most characters do, and that personal life happens to include being married to a man.
And yes, Jeryn Hogarth does have an ongoing storyline about the romantic triangle she’s involved in, but that’s alongside the various other roles she plays in the story, and it’s not about being a lesbian, it’s about a rich married lawyer leaving their wife for their mistress. The character is male in the comics, and her arc is pretty much exactly the same as it would’ve been if they’d cast a man in the role rather than Carrie Anne Moss. That’s not deep commentary, it’s just genderblind casting. It makes a statement by not making a statement.
So this is absolutely not about making a big dramatic issue out of it, and there’s no reason to expect it to become that. We’re decades past that already. We’re at the point where it’s understood to be just a normal part of life and is treated that way in many works of entertainment.
@ChristopherLBennett, just in case I’ve never told you, you are awesome.
@Lisamarie, highly disagree on Akanah. Akanah was a liar, a manipulative con artist who was never honest with Luke. That is hardly the foundation for a love interest relationship. The book certainly hinted that there was an interest there, and he comforted her after learning the truth about her father, but IMO, the lies and manipulation discount her from that list.
Rey could be gay….
@29: Not to mention that Disney owned Miramax for a while and never interfered with any content from that studio. I believe Marvel and Lucasfilm operate the same way.
@34/Theo16: Yes. There’s a tendency to believe that being acquired by Disney means being assimilated into its house style, but in fact, the reason Disney acquires these other businesses like Marvel and Lucasfilm is that they want to diversify their audience base by offering a wider range of styles that attract different audiences. For instance, they acquired Marvel because it appealed more to male audiences than their existing material did. So it would be against their own financial interests to change what these studios are doing. They want them to stay the course, to retain their own distinct identities and appeals; they just want the resultant profits to go into Disney’s pockets instead of somebody else’s.
It should be noted that Disney has been trying to diversify beyond its “kid stuff” image for decades. Back in the ’80s, they started making more adult, PG-rated movies like The Black Hole, TRON, and Something Wicked This Way Comes in the hopes of attracting a wider audience. But the Disney brand led people to expect them to be kid stuff and hurt their ticket sales, so Disney spun off the Touchstone Pictures imprint to make more adult-oriented fare, including R-rated movies like Down and Out in Beverly Hills and Ruthless People. But it was never a separate company, really, just a different brand to distinguish Disney’s older-skewing movies from the cartoons and kids’ fare that their name had become associated with.
@30 – oh, you are preaching to the choir, girl! I think I was somewhere around 12-14 when I read those books, so my memory is foggy on all the details (and possibly there were things I misinterpreted), but I utterly despised Akanah for lying to him/manipulating him and nearly rage quit the series (before such a word existed, ha) when I felt the book was hinting at some type of relationship. I was maybe a bit protective of Luke, haha. It was like a train wreck. The only reason I mentioned her is because I have seen other types of lists/articles about Star Wars EU that did mention Akanah as one of the potential love interests, so I’m not the only person who had that impression. But I agree that she wasn’t a ‘girlfriend’.
@21 – yes, Luke has had tragedy in his life, but at least until TFA, he was not a ‘tragic character’. He had overcome them, learned from those mistakes and the mistakes of others and – we were lead to believe/predict – would go on to help make the galaxy a better place because of those lessons.
But then TFA happened and…well, yeah. Apparently everything he worked for has been destroyed and now he’s moping on a rock in Ireland. Happy St. Patrick’s Day everybody!
(Yes, I know his story isn’t quite finished yet, so I guess we’ll see!)
@@.-@ – Tfmerritt: You’re heterosexual, aren’t you?
@6 – Doug: Wouldn’t it be “No, I am your mother.”?
@7 – Theo16: Following the girl was an excuse. All Luke craved was adventure. I’m not saying he was gay, but he would have gone looking for Obi-Wan even if the message in R2 featured General Dodonna saying “Hey, Obi, you owe me five bucks!”.
@15 – Chris: Another reason for Luke not pursuing a relationship with Leia between ANH and ESB is that, on some level, thanks to the Force, he sense that their connection was of a different kind.
@22 – Ragnarreadbeard: Disney is in charge of the franchise, but it’s also in charge of a lot of other things that aren’t Mickey Mouse. ABC made Lost, Marvel/Netflix makes Jessica Jones and Daredevil, etc, etc. Disney the corporation that owns dozens of properties is not the same as Disney the studio… and even Disney the studio is changing, as Chris said.
@25 – Erkhyan: Good rundown.
@28 – Scott: It’s not social commentary… is it social commentary when there were straight characters in all the previous movies?
And I’m late here, Chris said everything I wanted to say. I hope no o ne minds that I said it anyway. :)
I’m not 100% sold on the idea that Luke was ONLY into the adventure aspect. This is all subjective and based on the lens we view it through I suppose, but I feel like there were other hints that it was also about Leia personally. He is clearly struck by her beauty in the beginning, he gets jealous/testy when Han seems to be making the moves on here, he gazes at her rather adoringly at the medal ceremony at the end of the movie, and in ESB he seems pretty self satisfied with the kiss even if he didn’t initiate it. I agree in RotJ he basically doesn’t exhibit any types of attraction at all, but a)he’s a bit preoccupied with some other stuff and b)pretty much the only woman in the trilogy he already knows is his sister
So to me it seems like he was conceived and portrayed as attracted to women (at the least). When people talk about Poe being gay, my first thought is, ‘oh yeah, I can see that’, but with Luke it seems like you have to go back and re-characterize past movies to make it work. It wouldn’t be the first time things have been retconned in a franchise (for a multitude of reasons) but I’m finding more and more that I dislike a lot of retcons on principle.
That said, I am in total agreement that social commentary of course has a place in the genre.
@29/Christopher
OH I DARE, SIR. I DARE!
Oh wait, no I didn’t. You’ve completely constructed a strawman around what I said. Especially since, if you go back to what I wrote (and you read) less than 24 hours ago, I said I prefer to reserve reading social commentary stories in hard science fiction.
Harry Harrison’s The Stainless Steel Rat is a great example of light and airy, but intelligent and thoughtful scifi. Don’t conflate the terms or try to attribute biases to me that aren’t present.
As to your question, “Why the hell shouldn’t there be social commentary in space opera?”, my answer remains, “Because historically I haven’t liked those kinds of stories.” Probably not very convincing for you or anyone else, but it’s not intended for that purpose. It’s intended to stake my own preferences and guide my reading selection, which it does amazingly well.
Genres are concepts and can’t be insulted. People can get insulted, and why should you be insulted that I enjoy my space opera light and airy? I do, in fact, enjoy the right to paint an entire genre with a brush when stating my preferences. It’s the same right you have to say you don’t expect Star Wars to do it as a franchise. I obviously agree with you, Star Wars being a space opera.
I can read and write light and airy space opera and it doesn’t preclude anyone from reading or writing more dark and serious works. That’s one of the greatest things about literature and the free market. New stories come out to move the needle, genres morph and I’d be happy to entertain any suggestions you have where someone has successfully managed to darken and intensify a space opera without exiting the genre. I wasn’t a big fan of really dark, martial fantasy, but then a friend introduced me to Glenn Cook’s The Black Company and I’ve been hooked ever since.
Yes. Someone is. I am. That was the entire premise of my comment that you’re so quick to dismiss. Emily’s article speaks of the opportunity Star Wars has to move beyond possibility as its currently staked out. Beyond even what your (well chosen) examples are where franchises/studios are starting to get it right fairly consistently.
But the same mix of fear and anticipation I had of someone creating a seventh Star Wars movie is very similar to the fear and anticipation I have of someone expanding a AAA scifi title to more-richly explore human/alien relationships beyond the friendship level. It’s an opportunity and a danger, and one I still think is best done in a harder form of scifi than space opera.
You did see #Oscarssowhite, right? J.Law’s pay inequity dispute? Hollywood hasn’t solved racism. It hasn’t solved sexism. I think it’s safe to assume it hasn’t solved this issue either. The fight doesn’t start on screen but in the boardroom, and The Mouse in particular doesn’t have a great record of getting “it” right when it comes to choosing between dollars and diverse storytelling. For example: a potential lesbian relationship would only be possible if Star Wars actually had two women in a room at the same time for more than five minutes, and how often does that happen?
It’s a perfectly valid to have misgivings about the quality of storytelling and character building that might come out of a Disney studio trying to tackle a more-intense diversity that could include inter-species while also trying to preserve the essence (and profitability) of what would be considered a Star Wars movie.
It’s perfectly valid to have misgivings that they might try to inject deep social commentary into a space opera. It’s perfectly valid to entertain the fear that Star Wars in particular might fall back on tired, recycled tropes. Disney and Star Wars are going to have to earn some trust in this area before I give them any benefit of the doubt.
I appreciate the time you took to provide the contextual examples of where shows are either improving or just straight up hitting it out of the park, and agree things are way better than they were even 10-20 years ago. I just haven’t seen enough AAA movie titles with billions of dollars at stake hit similar home runs to think they’ll do a great job, let alone do a great job without people actively airing what they think would be a wrong road to travel.
Great conversation despite some misunderstanding (which usually gets cleared up by more conversation).
@37. lordmagnusen
The fact we’re discussing giving more prominence to gay characters in the Star Wars universe as something important, how it would provide new heroes for many and how it could be done wrong does imply there is a level of social commentary involved, even if it’s predominantly in the journey to having it appear on screen.
You hit on something important though. One of the best things that could happen would be for us to get to a point where people would be as blind to including gay characters as they would be to a purely straight cast.
“There are gay people in this movie?”
“Of course there are gay characters, it would be weird if there wasn’t.”
Based on my view (not anyone else’s) of Luke’s sexuality from both the films and books, He doesn’t fit the definition of the definition of a gay person. He appears to be naturally withdrawn from commitments because of life experiences not sexual tendencies. Being a fully emerged Jedi is more akin to a truly religious person, it would take a certain person to engage a Jedi (whether in a flirtation or companionship). Luke is very goal set for developing the Jedi order again and he is constantly viewing the history of the Jedi order to not repeat the mistakes. He is also aware that Jedi’s are born not created by some miracle action. I think he was more like Obi Kenobi in his view on life especially since he didn’t live in luxurious setting but ordinary but rough conditions. Having that kind of background plus the study and knowledge of the Jedi, he would have not tended to explore too many close friendships except with those he knew he could trust through the force.On the other hand ,Mark Hamill is another completely different person with a more broader viewpoint on life. The two are not one and the same.
Am I the only one finding the “we must have a noble gay role-model character” trope tiring? Assuming there is some truth in the “born this way” claims, then from a pragmatic evolutionary standpoint unless a civilization has been growing their children in creches for a few generations then gays will necessarily be a minority, so the current trend where it seems every other person is gay is just balderdash. It just strikes me as more marketing ploy than meaningful story telling. And why does a gay character have to be a hero and a role model? A gay person can be just as villainous as any straight person, so why not the same for fictional characters? Generally I find the sexuality of characters to rarely be of import except as it informs emotional motivation or progeny. Kylo Ren didn’t grow in a vat, you know (and while we’re on the topic of who is and who isn’t, he certainly looks to be a candidate as well).
@42 I take it you aren’t familiar with the villainous gay trope?
@38/Lisamarie: I take your point, but again, it wouldn’t have to be a retcon, because sexual preference is not absolutely binary. Being capable of attraction to women does not make it impossible to be attracted to men. Like I said, Luke was only nineteen, and was maybe still discovering what his sexual identity was. If his cultural conditioning was anything like ours, he may have been raised to see heterosexuality as the default and thus never recognized his potential to be attracted to men until the right man came along.
@39/Scott: “Yes. Someone is. I am. That was the entire premise of my comment that you’re so quick to dismiss.”
My intent was not to dismiss your concerns, but to reassure you that you had nothing to worry about. You were saying you didn’t want to see the filmmakers make a huge issue out of a character’s gayness, and I don’t think there’s much reason to expect that to happen in this day and age.
You do have a fair point that feature films are well behind television when it comes to representing diversity — just one of the ways that TV today is far better than movies today in essentially every respect aside from budget and spectacle. But as I mentioned before, these are businesses. They don’t make changes like these because of their innate morality, but because it’s what the audience wants to see. The bulk of the audience today, like you, does not want to see gay characters treated in a “Very Special Episode” manner; they just want to see them included and portrayed as part of normal life. So if the studios are serious about giving the audience what they want, and if they’re smart about it, then they’ll do it that way.
Not to mention that there have always been plenty of gay/lesbian/etc. people working in Hollywood, closeted or not. So I’m sure there are plenty of people within the industry who would be qualified to handle this sort of thing in a way that wasn’t tone-deaf.
@42/submandave: As I said in post #1, the whole “role model” thing tends to become an issue when the character in question is the only representative of the group in the story. That’s why I suggested that it not be limited to just one gay character who’s expected to be all things to all people. It would be better to include a diverse sampling than a single token.
And as noblehunter rightly points out, gay/lesbian/genderbending villains are a longstanding and ugly stereotype in Hollywood, so it’s a problematical road to take, especially if it’s done with the only gay character in the narrative.
What if Luke is gay and made a pass at Ben? He hates his parents because they forced him to study at a reclusive base with a creepy old uncle, hates the light side because it produces pederasts, and is jealous of his sister Rey because she got to have her memory Jedi-wiped and forgot everything?
I would love the idea of Rey being asexual! What a big break from the typical story line for female characters to have themselves defined by or their arc designed around the attainment of a romantic partner!
@45 oh God, can we please not go there?
@CLB – regarding the binary, yeah, that’s why I said he is attracted to women ‘at the least’. I’m not ruling out that he isn’t also attracted to men, but (and maybe this is a wrong definition) but the word ‘gay’ to me implies strictly homosexual. But maybe that’s not how the word is used anymore?
“Like I said, Luke was only nineteen, and was maybe still discovering what his sexual identity was” – maybe? See, it’s kind of funny because when you hear teenagers or preteens talk about being gay or bi or asexual, you get all these people saying ‘you’re too young to know about your sexuality’, and LBGT advocates talk about how no, actually it’s not (and I agree with them) because even as a young child you’re usually aware that you’re gay. So, therefore I would think Luke is also old enough to know he’s attracted to women at 19. I mean, yes, there is also the phenomenon of people faking it or being in denial but that’s also assuming Star Wars has the exact same cultural influences.
All my faves are bi (except the canonically gay ones) :p
@38 – Lisamarie: I’m not saying that Luke is gay or had zero interest in Leia, but his main motive seemed to be getting off Tatooine by any means possible. Then there’s what Chris said (rather, repeated) in #44.
@40 – But unfortunately, we’re not there yet, so there needs to be more gay characters in fiction. Any kind of fiction, for any audiences.
@42 – submandave: Let me guess… you’re straight, right?
@47 – Lisamarie: You can’t be too young to realize what your preferences are, but as you say, many people live in denial, or just confused, due to their cultural influences.
@47/Lisamarie: As I learned it in college Human Sexuality class, not many people are “strictly” one orientation or the other. The majority of people are at least a little bit in between. Even if they’ve only been active with one sex, most people have probably at least fantasized or been curious about the other sex as well.
I like to make the analogy that the relationship between sexual orientation and sexual behavior is like the relationship between climate and weather. The former represents the overall norm, the average over time, but the latter can vary quite a bit around that average. If a region with an arid climate has an occasional rainstorm, that doesn’t mean you have to stop calling it arid. And if a gay man has an occasional flirtation or sexual interaction with a woman, that doesn’t mean he can no longer self-identify as gay.
As for the age at which people recognize their orientation, it’s generally true that people tend to know that at a younger age than 19, but it’s also true that young people — particularly college-age people, it seems — are prone to experimentation. They may be aware that they prefer one sex, but still be willing to experiment with the other just to find out for sure. Experimentation isn’t faking or being in denial; it’s just keeping an open mind.
And sexuality can be fluid over time as well. I’ve read that a lot of millennials resist adopting labels for their sexual preference in the first place, preferring a non-binary view of identity. Which reminds me of a college classmate of mine, who once let on that she was attracted to the same female friend I had a crush on — even though she’d formerly dated the guy who would end up marrying the object of our shared interest. Rather than labeling herself as bisexual, though, she explained, “I just don’t think you should rule out a relationship with someone just because of what gender they are.”
My takes on a few of the major characters:
Poe: gay
Finn: totally hetero but totally not homophobic, which is why he can be best buds with Poe and not mind the occasional flirting. He is hot for Rey but that’s not going to go anywhere because…
Rey: asexual
Luke: nominally straight but has dedicated himself to the chaste life of the Jedi. Probably a 64-year-old virgin
Leia/Han: straight, duh
Chewbacca: well, according the Holiday Special, he had a whole family back on Kashyyyk. That’s canon, right??
Maz: omnivorous sexuality. Would definitely be down for some interspecies action with Chewie. Probably had a fling with Yoda and/or Yaddle back in the old days
Kylo Ren: probably straight, but who would even want to find out?
Hux: might be gay, but he’s so dedicated to the First Order that he tries to banish all carnal thoughts. Appears to have a love/hate thing with Kylo Ren, but that seems more like a sibling rivalry, with Snoke as the dad figure
Threepio: if it’s possible for a droid to be gay, he’s as queer as the day is long (which varies depending on what planet you’re on, I suppose)
@51 – oh, I don’t need to take a class to know that :) I don’t actually disagree with you on the idea of fluid/non binary sexuality that can change over time (although there is the old saw that this is less true for men than women – not sure how much truth there actually is in that). I’m not of the opinion that he can’t possibly be attracted to men, just that it does seem to me that he’s at least attracted to women, and while it’s not that there couldn’t be plausible explanations for seeming to be attracted to women but not actually being attracted to women, it was not the way the character was initially conceived. And of course creator intent and how much it needs to be honored and how much can be revisited and all that is another argument in general and I’ve always tended to be on the creator side of that argument in general and that’s just one view of art.
Which, maybe the idea that ‘gay’ means Luke Skywalker is only attracted to men is not even what this article is trying to say, but generally I see the word ‘gay’ used as a term to denote ONLY attracted to men. Maybe I’m wrong in that interpretation in the word or how it now gets used in common parlance, but that was my experience with it (whereas words like queer/bi/pan would be used to indicate attraction to both sexes). But I get what you mean about labels and I’m still not sure if I I think the labels are useful or not as opposed to a more spectrum based approach or recognizing that different things might attract us at different times. Not to mention that there is also a difference between your orientation/what you are attracted to, and who you actually chose to engage in relationships with and your behavior. Then again, perhaps the confusion over what the word actually means is a reason why having a common set of words is useful even if the word you might use for yourself might change over time.
Anyway, I find this an interesting discussion so hopefully nobody is feeling like I’m being overly contentious about it.
@52/Lisamarie: If men in our culture are less sexually fluid than women, it’s probably a matter of social conditioning rather than anything innate. Women in our society are freer to express affection and share physical contact with one another, while men are discouraged from doing those things. That would tend to make men more wary of any same-sex impulses they might feel, or give them fewer opportunities to discover them. And just in general, women in our society are given more freedom to explore their emotions — although there might be some greater innate ability in women to be good at processing emotion, at least on the average. It’s hard to separate what might be innate from what’s socially influenced. Either way, though, it could make it easier for women to realize their own sexual fluidity.
And I think it makes more sense to see “gay” as meaning “primarily and preferentially attracted to one’s own sex” rather than “exclusively attracted to one’s own sex.” The latter is a much more restrictive definition and therefore less useful. Something can still be a rule even if it has occasional exceptions. And of course there are no sharp dividing lines, just transitional zones where the definitions become a matter of interpretation. One man who’s mostly into men but occasionally dates women might consider himself bisexual, seeing his interest in women as an integral if secondary aspect of his sexuality, while another with the same proportion of male to female partners could consider himself gay, feeling that his dalliances with women are infrequent enough that they “don’t count.” It’s a subjective thing.
The smug look on Luke’s face in ANH when Han indicates he’s not interested in Leia would suggest that Luke’s sexuality has at least a leaning to the women.
Wouldn’t want the new films to retcon.
Splinter of the Minds Eye anyone? I don’t think it’s canon any more but there is an overwhelming (and disturbing!) amount of hetereosexual chemistry between Luke and Leia in that. There is at least three scenes where they look into each other’s eyes deeply, feeling a special connection… but then action interrupts before anything romantic can ensue.
I also think the books are not canon now, but by Jedi Academy (or whatever it was) Luke had given up on romance because he was too afraid that any children he had would turn to the dark side. The sort of thing that makes you disappear to a remote island for twenty years. (This passivity and melancholy is what made me stop reading, Luke turned into such a dithering fool in the books.)
…and then there was that whole business with Mara Jade which was pretty definitively hetereosexual…
I can ship Poe as homo- or bisexual, no problems. I doubt very much Disney would promote a major character though. Maybe a small background scene as mentioned.
@55/suchan: The books don’t matter to the movies. Even back when the tie-ins were allegedly “canonical,” new Star Wars movies and shows still ignored and contradicted them on a regular basis (e.g. The Clone Wars totally throwing out all of Karen Traviss’s extensive Mandalorian worldbuilding), and the books just absorbed the retcons, glossed over the inconsistencies, and pretended it still fit. The claim that the books were canonical was never truthful before, and of course the old EU has now been officially set aside en masse and isn’t binding on anything that’s made from now on.
Oh man, Poe Dameron would be perfect.
I agreed with this choice before I read it in your article. “Hmmm…. yes, she makes a good argument, hey… Poe would be the perfect choice oh look – she said Poe too!”
He is absolutely what you want in a role model. Please make it so JJ.
I’m writing a series at the moment aimed at the Potter demographic, and I have two gay characters – one is the toughest, hardest man in the cast, a werewolf heavily inspired by Wolverine, the other is a magnificent, girls-hanging-off-him rockstar type in the Ravenshadow (Rising Stars) mould. Both of them are key players in the story and in their group.
@56 Was the assorted levels of “canon” regarding the novels before the prequels came out ever official? Or was it just an attempt to generate consensus in the fandom?
Why does it matter if the characters are gay or straight? Why not people who fall in love or are attracted to whomever strikes them?
We put too much pressure on literature to conform to a specific agenda without just allowing the story to be told without the sex. I know it’s hot to think of and see sex in the movies, but is it really necessary? Does it advance the story? Then it’s out. Does it add layers or motivation to a characters actions? If not, then it doesn’t need to be part of the story. Everything is connected and shoe horning in a gay character to satisfy a sector of the population is as phony as it gets. Oh, there aren’t enough black/Asian/white/Semitic/whatever characters in the story. Let’s see. Which ones should we make [insert gender/sex/race]? Isn’t the point ultimately to tell a story and not just pander to bigots of all stripes?
I was surprised about Albus Dumbledore, not because he was gay, but because it was never part of the warp and weft of his character. It seemed to me to be tacked on as an after thought. I’d rather not see the same kind of pandering to a politically correct agenda infiltrate Star Wars instead of being an organic part of the story that is woven into the very fabric of each character just for the sake of dollars and cents — and politics (sexual or otherwise).
@58/noblehunter: The “canon policy” was apparently the stance of Lucasfilm Licensing, but it was a misleading use of the term “canon.” It didn’t mean that the screen productions were under any obligation to acknowledge or stay consistent with the tie-ins, any more than in any other franchise; it just meant that all the tie-ins strove to stay consistent with each other. As opposed to the way Star Trek tie-ins were done at the time (in the ’90s), when each book or comic was standalone and there was no attempt made to keep tie-ins mutually consistent, the SW tie-ins tried to integrate everything into a single, cross-referential whole. But that only affected the tie-ins themselves, and the makers of canon felt free to use or ignore material from the tie-ins as they saw fit. This was made explicit in the “levels of canon” policy instituted in 2000, in which lower tiers yielded to new information from higher tiers.
Now, Lucasfilm is trying to keep all its post-2014 productions and tie-ins canonical, but we’ll see how committed they are to that when a filmmaker decides he or she wants to do something that contradicts some previous comics story. In fact, Wikipedia says that post-2014 tie-ins “should be considered canon unless stated otherwise.” So they’re already hedging their bets and admitting that tie-in “canon” is provisional and subject to exceptions. Which sounds the same as the previous “everything counts until it’s contradicted” policy from 2000 onward.
They can’t make Luke into a homosexual.
I already have issues with the first lot of new films being a rehash. I grew up with Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica. I was not impressed with the series for Battlestar Galactica.
The novels have him married to a women and the original movies all have Luke as a heterosexual. So I would not bother watching the movies and I would go as far as starting a boycott of future movies until they get the hint to stay within the boundaries created by the original writer.
The writers for the new movies need to stay with the original characters as they were. You can’t suddenly go from loving women to loving men. So if they make Luke into a homosexual they lose credibility. What little they have.
Most Jedi do not marry because of their job just like a Shaolin Monk.
Also why is important they we have a homosexual character. being science fiction fan I have many stories where that short of the thing is the norm.
So in short to fit with all the original characters he can’t be made into a homosexual because it does not fit within the Jedi Knights and he was married with kids showing no signs that he found men interesting in that way.
@13. jere7my
<i>”@@.-@: We’ve seen at least fifteen instances of opposite-sex attraction or partnering in the movies: Han, Leia, Luke, Lando ..” </i>
Er, wait WHAT!? Luke and Lando were an item? Must’ve missed that! (Also Luke- Lando = not opposite sexes!)
@62: That was a list of characters who expressed heterosexual attraction, not a list of pairs. Lando and Luke showed interest in Leia.
@61: You must unlearn what you have learned. The EU is no longer canon (and good riddance). And people come out in later life all the time.
@60: “Unless stated otherwise” covers things like the Lego cartoons. Pablo Hidalgo et al. are indeed committed to keeping everything consistent, and they’re approaching tie-ins with more forethought and oversight than the EU ever had.
@63/jere7my: Sure, they’re keeping things consistent for now. But I’ve seen earlier attempts to keep tie-ins consistent, and stories that were originally meant to be canon-consistent often end up being disregarded anyway. It’s hard enough to keep a canon consistent within itself; it’s a lot harder for the makers of a canon to make sure that their tie-ins remain compatible with their continuity and vision, especially since they have to devote the bulk of their attention to the canon itself. J. Michael Straczynski intended the Dell Babylon 5 novels to be canonical, but he couldn’t spare enough attention to them to keep errors from getting through, so all but two of them were retroactively disregarded. (It wasn’t until the show was off the air that he could spare the time and attention to keep the later Del Rey novels consistent, which is why they’re still canonical.) And I’m certain that the initial creators of the Star Wars EU were just as committed to consistency as the new folks are, but the more the stories accumulated and the more the new movies and shows forced them to shift gears, the harder it became.
I guarantee you, as soon as some future moviemaker has an idea that contradicts something in a comic book, they are not going to be told “Sorry, you have to abandon your plans for a multigazillion-dollar movie because of a plot detail in a 5-year-old comic read by a few thousand people at most.” No, they’re going to be perfectly free to contradict it, and the comic will be retconned away as a hallucination or a trick or an imaginary story or one of the countless other ways that comics deal with stories they want to disregard. And the more time passes, the more often that will happen, and eventually the new “everything is canon” tie-in universe will be just as much of a continuity snarl as the EU became.
I guess if they decided to make Luke gay it would force a lot of people who grew up with the original trilogy to really take a look at how they truly feel about sexual orientations. I always assumed Luke was straight, and it kind of feels weird for me to see him as gay, but there’s no real reason for him to be straight within the narrative. Hell, Karl’s comment above about boycotting the franchise because of this reminded me of the fuss some people made about Finn being black, and to a lesser extent, Poe being Hispanic. Even if they did decide to go with the gay Luke idea, I don’t think it’d have much of an impact on the sequel trilogy as far as narrative arcs go. I’d certainly keep watching them even if I’d have preferred Luke to be straight like I always thought he was. It’s not that big a deal, really. Star Wars has never focused on romance as such, so it’ll be merely an afterthought. I just hope they don’t pull a “gay people are more at risk of going to the Dark Side” because that would defeat the purpose supposedly behind the idea of retconning him as gay in the first place.
@65 jm1978
Poe is Hispanic??? I never heard him speak Spanish, and I doubt he’s got any tie to Spain, being raised on Yavin 4. Where is this Hispanic thing coming from?
Bisexual Star Wars fan here to remind everyone saying “Luke can’t be attracted to men, he’s shown attraction to women!” that sexuality isn’t an either-or proposition. “Attracted to both/all genders” is also a valid option, as is “attracted to no genders.” A man who is attracted to women is not necessarily straight.
There are also many, many examples of real life gay men who dated/married/expressed attraction to women as young men because that’s what society taught them men should do, and only later in life did they realize why those relationships never felt fulfilling, but the bi erasure of certain comments in this thread hits me more personally.
@59 — I picked up on Dumbledore being gay or bi simply from reading the seventh book, before Rowling made her announcement. Go back and reread the parts concerning Dumbledore’s feelings about/interactions with Gellert Grindelwald, and you’ll smack your head at how obvious it is that Dumbledore was in love. Which makes both Dumbledore’s reluctance to go duel and arrest Grindelwald and the extent of Dumbledore’s guilty conscience afterwards make a lot more sense than if Grindelwald were just a guy he was friends with for less than a summer and didn’t see again for years, so I’ve never understood why people felt Dumbledore’s sexuality wasn’t woven into the story. (And Dumbledore’s duel with Grindelwald was first mentioned in book one, so it wasn’t a last minute addition to the narrative.)
@67 SKM
Open-hearted Potter fan here to remind everyone saying “Dumbledore loved Gellert, he must be gay!” that love isn’t necessarily an expression of sexual attraction. Not everyone that expresses deep love for their mother, father, siblings or best friends are trying to get them in the sack.
The tendency to marry the concepts of love and admiration to sexuality is a disservice to love in general and the effort to defuse the hyper-sexualization of our society’s relationship structures in particular.
@66/Scott: Of course the characters don’t have Earthly ethnicities. The point is that Poe is played by Oscar Isaac, a native of Guatemala, which is a Spanish-speaking (Hispanic) country. It’s an important step forward in inclusion and representation because of the actor. True, we’ve had Hispanic and/or Latino actors in the franchise before, like Jimmy Smits as Bail Organa, but not in lead roles.
@66/Scott: Yeah, just as ChristopherLBennet said, I meant that Oscar Isaac is in fact Hispanic just as John Boyega is black. I agree it doesn’t make sense to make an issue out of that in 2016, but the truth is that I actually heard real life conversations where people were complaining that the main character was a woman and the Stormtrooper was a black guy. You can guess the reaction when they said that at least Poe was white only to have it pointed out to them that actually Oscar Isaac was a Guatemalan and native Spanish speaker. Sure, ethnicity and nationality are different things and Oscar Isaac can be mostly considered to be a white guy, but don’t expect bigots to be able to grasp the difference.
I know guys. I was just playing around. :)
The fact that he’s really Hispanic, but nobody much cares (except hopefully Hispanics!) is where we can get to with gay inclusion. Nobody really notices, except for gays who can latch on them as a positive (or at least neutral) affirmation that they exist in the larger world without fingers pointed, good or bad. They just “are”.
@68 —
This is true. It is, however, utterly irrelevant to the example I was citing, which was written as a teenage crush and definitely came across that way. I’m fully aware Dumbledore loved Ariana without wanting to get in her pants, but that’s not how his relationship with Grindelwald is written. If Gellert had been written as female, nobody would have had any doubt about the nature of Dumbledore’s feelings. It’s only because we expect all characters to be straight unless specifically labeled otherwise that people overlooked it–which is the opposite of open-hearted, in my opinion, albeit a trap I sometimes fall into as well.
I basically agree with this as well. However, the fact that it’s almost always same-sex relationships that get called out as hypersexualization–even in cases like Dumbledore and Grindelwald where there was no sex or even mutual romantic interest–whereas opposite-sex relationships only get called out if they actually show sex on screen/on page, is a lot more telling (and a real disservice to those of us who are not straight). Practically he entire sixth book of Harry Potter is about opposite-sex snogging, but a single, mostly offscreen, unrequited same-sex crush is hypersexualization? That’s an absurd double standard.
But this thread is supposed to be about Star Wars, so I’ll stop talking about Dumbledore and just say that Poe and Finn have fantastic chemistry and I would love for one or both of them to be gay or bi. (I’d also love for Rey to be a lesbian, but I consider that more of a longshot for the screenwriters to include, since it would require them to give more lines to female characters.)
My guess is that Rey is Luke’s daughter. She is about the right age, and the play up to her meeting him sets the stage for that development. Who is her mother? Why was she left alone at the outpost? Why does she think her parents are dead?
Makes little sense to me that Luke would be gay. Poe? Maybe, but he is positioned to be a heart throb…
We shall see where Abrams takes this. The more speculating fans do, the more people will be anxious to see the next movie!
So sorry to loose Han, but his part was played out.
@72
We do tend to fill in with behaviours that are most common and close to home. That’s probably why nobody had doubts that Dumbledore could have a mancrush/intense admiration for another man, and others could see it as romantic interest. Nothing really gets settled until the author steps in, which is why it’s so weird people were attacking JKR for staking her ground on her fictional creations.
It’s a fact? I’d love to see the research. Can you share some links? Like, to reputable peer-reviewed papers, not summaries on websites with agendas, unless they share the links to the papers?
Poe and Finn have fantastic chemistry and I would love for one or both of them to be gay or bi. (I’d also love for Rey to be a lesbian, but I consider that more of a longshot for the screenwriters to include, since it would require them to give more lines to female characters.)
Plus, you’re just barely able to pluralize “female characters” in these movies, if you go by speaking lines! Anyway, if you made Poe and Finn gay you could do away with Rey altogether, because you wouldn’t need her to establish a later romantic love interest. I think you’ve solved the way Star Wars can eliminate women altogether!
Scott@74, it’s a distraction to ask for peer-reviewed research. I think we both know that a journal article is not required for something to be demonstrably true. If you look at any Facebook article about Abrams’ recent response about gay characters in Star Wars, you will find literally hundreds of comments from people asking: “Why do we need to know characters’ sexuality?” “Star Wars is supposed to be family-friendly.” “Leave sex out of Star Wars!” I have a folder of dozens of screencaps of these comments sitting on my desktop, should you doubt me. If you can find me even one hundred comments from people complaining about Bazine sitting on Grummgar’s lap in Maz Kanata’s castle, I’ll grant your point that a peer-reviewed statistical study is needed; as it is, anyone who chooses to pay attention can see that opposite-sex affection passes with minimal comment while the mere specter of same-sex affection generates garbage fires.
And if you think Rey, the central hero of a new Star Wars trilogy, in whom the titular Force has Awakened, only exists to serve as a love interest in future movies, you might need to rewatch TFA. She could very well be ace and the movie would work exactly as well. We had multiple speaking roles for female actors in TFA (Rey, Maz, Phasma, Leia, Bazine, Chewie’s doctor, a couple of random imperials, a couple of random rebels), literally tripling the number of speaking women in the Star Wars cinematic universe in one fell swoop. I don’t think Kathleen Kennedy has eliminating women on her to-do list.
@74&75: I will say, first off, that I have encountered instances of fans — myself included — complaining when other fans or creators pushed a sexual interpretation of male-female relationships that I felt should be platonic friendships, e.g. Middleman and Wendy on The Middleman (a case where the producers were adamant that it was a surrogate father-daughter relationship and were squicked out by the fans’ attempts to ship the pair) or Pete and Myka on Warehouse 13 (a case where the producers spent several seasons portraying a wonderfully platonic, brother-sister relationship and then inexplicably contradicted themselves and forced a completely out-of-character “destined lovers” arc on them in the final season). So I myself have often been on the “it should be platonic” side in those cases.
So I hope that perspective will be taken into account when I say that I agree entirely with jere7my on this — that argument is disproportionately directed against potential same-sex partnerships in fiction, and is frequently used as a cover for more homophobic reasons to resist the idea. It’s also invalid to treat the two as equivalent, because it’s a matter of proportional representation. There are already tons of heterosexual romantic relationships in fiction — if anything, there are too many. The whole reason I like to see platonic male-female relationships is because there are so few of them in fiction, since they tend to be crowded out by the romances. And the same goes for same-sex relationships — they’re also a relationship category that gets underrepresented and crowded out by hetero romance. So arguing in favor of a platonic same-sex relationship is not equivalent to arguing in favor of a platonic opposite-sex one. If anything, it’s the opposite — because in the case of same-sex relationships, platonic ones are the default in fiction, while with opposite-sex relationships, romantic ones are the default. Neither one needs to be advocated for, because both are so routine. It’s the relationships that aren’t taken for granted — the platonic male-female relationships and the romantic same-sex relationships — that both need to be advocated for because of their rarity in fiction.
Thank you very much for your analysis, I never quite thought of it, because most of the time I can find characters I can relate to in my media. But a wider range of representation, without swallow stereotypization or even worse, subtle condemnation, would be a vital step ahead in civilization at large because ultimately it would help people to overcome the notion of “difference”. I pride myself to be a person who tries to avoid prejudices (as much as possible, of course, prejudices are also part of one’s own experience and culture), at least the stupid ones, and I think “stupid prejudice” can be well applied to skin color or sexuality, or level of education. But sometimes it is very difficult, because i.e, I meet a new person and he/she has a different skin tone. The first thing I notice is that. I hate the fact that my first reaction is to draw this line. Then of course I get my brain working and all is good, but where I live, when I was little, it was very unusual to see “someone different”, and so it was perceived as, truly, “difference”. Now the average school class is 70-30% and talking to kids, I notice they rarely notice, unless we’re talking about hair styles or make-up preferences, because they are growing up with many more skin tones around (that leaving aside narrow-minded parents who influence their kids in a negative way, but that’s another matter). That 30% is still under-represented, but not ignored like it was two decades ago. I, myself, would love to be like modern kids, but the more I see differences around me, and the more I see them on media (which have an overwhelming power over people and culture), the less they become differences..it is simply as it is. Then it is a subtle balance, what I see on the media, what I see in real-life and how they intertwine.
Sexuality is a more thorny subject I think (also because there are many things involved which make it much more complex than skin colors, of course) but for the same reason, I’d love to see a wider range of possibilities on my media and gain a better awareness of myself and people around me. I’m sure there is a lot of debate about all the finer points and boundaries of the issue, but generally speaking I think we would be much better-off if the media kept pace with the true reality of the societies they are aimed to.
@74 Jere7my
No that’s fine. The fact you’re openly admitting all your evidence is anecdotal and hand-picked from the areas you like to frequent is sufficient enough for me to position your claim properly. I trust you have what you’ve claimed.
Also, if you think sexism is solved in Star Wars because Phasma and a couple other women had a handful of lines or were in motion in the movie, I’ll take your word for that too. Sounds like all we need to do is get a couple gay characters in place and we’ll have a veritable utopia!
Scott @78: Here’s a link to two of many Facebook posts about Abrams’ quote:
https://www.facebook.com/Nerdist/posts/1180391178645355
https://www.facebook.com/mashable/posts/10153928420154705
It should be trivial for you to verify the tenor of the hundreds of comments there, or in any of the other similar discussions. If you can find for me one (1) comparable discussion about heterosexual affection from any point in the last 39 years of Star Wars, I would be happy to reconsider my position. If you can’t, I have to assume that my anecdotally gathered evidence is indeed a representative sample, and your request for peer-reviewed research a distraction. One counterexample is a good starting point for disproving a hypothesis.
@76 Christopher
Hi Christopher,
I’d love to see more platonic (but loving) and romantic same-sex relationships tastefully and seamlessly inserted into popular fiction. I also think deep, platonic but loving relationships are missing for young boys. Efforts to apply a sexual connotation to Dumbledore’s affection (pre-author settling the discussion, which was its own thread) was very annoying because I think many were trying to pave over a theme that was just as important to another group in search of a hero.
A large amount of feminist literature speaks of the need to get boys to socialize and vocalize with their feelings out front, and to dispatch with the old paradigm of rough play and stoicism. (Yes, I can provide sources, but I don’t think this is a point of contention?) Examples of boys having deep, platonic relationships, where it’s safe to express love without getting embroiled in sexuality, is important to this task.
It’s a giant land-grab in fiction to try and turn the AAA characters to our own private agendas, particularly in the YA category we’re discussing. The emotional health and growth of young boys is my own primary mission, and they need help. I don’t begrudge anyone for looking for heroes for the groups they’re interested in helping (which I usually agree need help, and I think raising young boys better leads to helping.)
I completely agree there are likely bigots using “do we really need to sexualize Star Wars?” to try and minimize discussion about non-straight groups. You know my feelings on space opera in general, and prior to the prequels sexuality in Star Wars was reserved to geneology and “ooo they kissed!” I have no problem believing there are a large number of people that are really just hoping to enjoy some light space opera, and don’t want to get bogged down in sexuality debates.
The irony is, the latter group is likely to not really care if there are gay characters in the show going about their perfectly normal adventures. I would hazard (pure speculation, largely based on my social circle that tends to fit the bill) that they’re not so much against sexuality being explored in the film, but having the conversation outside the film center around it.
Luckily, it’s usually pretty easy to avoid conversations we don’t want to have online, unless we actively seek them out of course. But then, we’re making our own fate. :)
Harry has a “deep, platonic but loving” relationship with Dumbledore whether or not Dumbledore was gay. Ditto Harry with Ron and Hagrid. How does revealing Dumbledore’s sexuality take anything away from that?
Star Wars had multiple examples of opposite-sex attraction and partnering prior to the prequels: Luke, Han, Jabba, and Lando for Leia, Leia for Han, Owen and Beru with each other, flirtations in the background of the cantina. The foofaraw around the mere possibility of a gay character in Star Wars—who would most likely be handled exactly the same as straight “oo they kissed” romances—is as distasteful as the bigotry that erupted when Lando kissed Leia’s hand.
@80/Scott: The problem with calling it a “land-grab” is that it casts the power imbalance in the wrong direction. The reason so many fans are eager to read romantic subtext into same-sex relationships is because there are so few textual LGBT relationships. They’re barely given any “land” of their own to start with. So accusing them of a “land-grab” is tantamount to accusing stateless refugees of territorial imperialism. It’s really insensitive to the realities that make them yearn so strongly for any “land” to call their own.
@66, And Isaac wanted his character to be from Yavin 4 because it was filmed in his native Guatemala.
John Lucas, #50:
— “Chewbacca: well, according the Holiday Special, he had a whole family back on Kashyyyk. That’s canon, right??”
LOL, it better be. I don’t wanna have to retcon my own username! :P
— “Luke: nominally straight but… Probably a 64-year-old virgin”
The latter is a vibe I can understand people picking up, though it’s not really how I picture Luke. I sorta see him having a kinda “lost weekend” after Cloud City.
He was devastated in just every way a person can be — couldn’t save Han, lost his hand, found out he’s Vader’s son (that Obi-Wan and Yoda kept secret), and chose to fall to certain death, rather than be taken by Vader. And, he had to deal with Vader calling to him through The Force.
The next time we see him, he’s virtually unrecognizable. He had to change drastically into a person that, for example, delighted in killing Jabba and company. “It’s cold, son. Gleefully cold.”
Of course, that’s all common knowledge. :) Granted, I’m speculating… My take is Luke probably spent time in less-than-wholesome surroundings, and part of that would include meeting a few local ladies.
Now back to the main topic…
While I wouldn’t mind seeing lots of gay characters in Star Wars, it wouldn’t really work for one to be Luke. Like Lisamarie said in #14, it would be shoehorned in — I actually used those same words when I first read about it.
Poe, however… never mind Finn; if just his scenes with Kylo Ren didn’t launch a thousand slashfics, I’d be astounded.
Personally, I would much rather that Luke be bi if he is somewhere on the LGBTQ spectrum. Why? Because, ever since they first came out with that poster where Finn has a lightsaber and Rey doesn’t, I’ve been hoping that they’re faking us out and FINN is the lost Skywalker child, not Rey. Not only would it be a cool plot twist, I can believe more that a Skywalker baby was kidnapped by the First Order on a raid and raised as a Stormtrooper (without them even knowing who they’ve got) and THAT’s why he wasn’t rescued, than I can believe that Luke, Leia, and Han knowingly let a kid be abandoned and raised on Jakku.
Now, I would be ALL OVER a Finn/Poe relationship like white on rice.
you say creatives and companies shouldn’t tick b o xes. but that’s exactly whats been happening since the beginning. Hollywood mistakenly i m agines idiotic masses wont watch anything not exclusively white and heterosexual. it backfires on everyone because every kind of person is everywhere. and we are all missing out on amazing films that could have been. instead were getting rehashed excrement and fake gay stories like buyers club and imitation game.if it says true story and only 2 things in each are true then….anyway star wars is all about nostalgia and merchandise so who t f . cares. its boring as all hell and waaaaay too long. irrelevant.
Luke Skywalker would never be gay just because Disney said he is. It baffles me that people think buying an IP is the same thing as buying the right to dictate canon. Disney would have to pay everyone individually for that right, and I haven’t gotten my cheque in the mail yet. Luke is straight.
@88 You have mistaken your own personal Head-Canon with Actual Canon. Yes, buying the rights does grant Disney the ability to change canon. That is what canon means, that which is told by the person who owns it. You Do Not Own It; Disney does. You can head canon something, you can even try to invoke fanon, but canon is dictated by the rights holders and trumps all of those things.
@89 this is objectively false. I’ll explain why then demonstrate.
You are conflating Intellectual Property rights with canon. IP rights are the legal right to use certain ideas for profit without being punished. Canon is that body of work which is accepted by a community.
Canon comes from religion, and refers to those holy texts considered true by the specific sect or flock. There is overlap between Protestants and Mormons, for example, but one does not consider all works the other believes in to be canon.
As for demonstration, consider that the right to own ideas expires. Frankenstein; or, the Modern Prometheus by Mary Shelley is now considered public domain, owned by everyone instead of a single entity. Anyone can write a sequel to Frankenstein now and many have. Are they all canon? Of course not.
So canon is chosen by communities, as are those who may dictate canon. Disney is now in the situation of being the head of a flock, but we loyalists to the original canon need not follow the transfer of IP rights and become part of that flock. It’s non-canon to us, and the original canon still stands. Thus, you may discount Mara Jade or even his undeniable early attraction to Leia but that doesn’t mean Luke Skywalker would be gay if Disney said so. Disney’s© STAR WARS™ is a different thing from Star Wars, now, and what is preached by its priests and held to be scripture by its flock does not retroactively change the first canon.
You’ve described fanon, not canon there. I get it, you want the control to pick and choose what to believe, but that just means you are picking and choosing and ignoring the canon you don’t like. Sorry, but IP and canon are one and the same. I get that it hurts that you don’t have the control you feel you deserve, but you don’t and right now Disney does. What you want to believe is just your personal fanfic, not canon.
In comment #15, I said: “I’ve got nothing in principle against the idea of a Finn-Poe pairing, but that just felt like a buddy thing to me, while there were definite sparks with Finn and Rey. Although I can be relatively poor at recognizing same-sex subtext, so I don’t know if I’ll get the same impression once I see the film again.”
For the record, I’ve now seen the film again, and this time I definitely saw the Finn-Poe chemistry, more than I saw between Finn and Rey. The latter pair had terrific witty banter, but it was more a comedic chemistry than a romantic spark.