Heeeeeeey, Tor.com. This here is a Wheel of Time Reread Redux, and don’t you forget it!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapter 7 of The Fires of Heaven, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Before we begin, a reminder that the format of the Reread Redux has changed: from now on I am only going to be commenting on chapters in which my reaction has changed significantly from before, based on the knowledge I had at the time.
What we missed from last time: Moiraine tries to sweat-hug it out with the Wise Ones, and mostly fails. Egwene learns more about the wacky world of ji’e’toh, and doesn’t even notice how well she’s already following it. Rand gets threatened-slash-perved on by Lanfear, and can’t kill her because his other name is Captain Stubborn McChivalry. He kills some Darkhounds with BALEFIRE OMG, and Moiraine is so unnerved by this she offers to swear an oath of fidelity to Rand, which unnerves everyone else in turn.
Onward!
Chapter 7: A Departure
Redux Commentary
[In this chapter: Egwene creeps on everyone’s dreams, because hahaha ethical boundaries what are those; Rand makes it rain in Rhuidean, yeah baby; Moiraine and Lan argue over her new oath of fealty to Rand because Lan has A Bad Feeling About This.]
Aviendha’s dream had been too painful to watch for long. Naked but for that ivory bracelet, and that seeming to drag at her as if it weighed a hundred pounds, Aviendha had been running as hard as she could across a cracked clay flat. And behind her, Rand came, a giant twice the size of an Ogier on a huge Jeade’en, slowly but inexorably catching up.
It’s funny how in stories people’s dreams always seem to be some kind of fairly direct clue as to either their character or their current dilemmas. Because in my experience, actual dreams tend to be a lot more random/obscure. Like the nightmare I had a few days ago where I dreamed I was trying to sell my customers Slurpees (FYI I’ve never worked anywhere that would remotely require Slurpee distribution), but every time I tried to make one, cockroaches would fall from the ceiling into the drinks, and no one would take them.
I mean, that probably means something, but compared to Aviendha’s dream that Egwene spied on, it’s pretty maddeningly unspecific. And gross. Egh.
Also, stop snooping in people’s dreams, Egwene, that is hella uncool! Even if it helps with exposition!
I mentioned in the original commentary to this chapter that I couldn’t quite picture Moiraine being in a romantic relationship with anyone, even Thom, and that if Brandon actually managed to pull off a successful romantic scene with her and Thom that I would be very impressed.
And now that the series is finished, I… think that Brandon actually did deliver on this, sort of, in the sense that Thom and Moiraine’s reunion-and-engagement scene in TOM was refreshingly pragmatic and, well, unromantic AND romantic at the same time. I confess, I’m rather a secret fan of the style of proposal which amounts to “Welp, we should probably get married then, huh” and “eh, sure, let’s”. Which is totally how Thom and Moiraine get engaged in TOM, and it was weirdly perfect.
In other news, in light of what Aviendha ends up doing in Rhuidean in TOM, I find Moiraine’s thought re: going through the rings here very prescient:
Death was possible in those, too; some women could not face the future any more than others could face the past.
Fortunately, it turns out Aviendha is having none of your paranoia re: finding out through freaky ter’angreal what happens in the future to her people, and it’s a good thing she did.
In other news, I wish to state for the record that, since 2009, I have totally and absolutely finished multiple games of Sodoku on the “hard” setting. SO THERE, past me.
And that’s what I got for now, kids! I’m cutting the post a little short today owing to an unexpected total lack of brain circumstances, but please do come back in two weeks for more – and also, more! I totes promise. Cheers!
I don’t think I ever had a problem with the idea of Thom and Moiraine as a couple. They’re not young star-crossed lovers (and they’re not old star-crossed lovers pretending to be young). It’s not your typical romantic relationship, but for them it works. Moiraine has always been kind of an old soul, so the age difference doesn’t seem that great.
Hah, we seem to have very opposite preferences when it comes to proposal plot devices :) Although I agree something understated can also be very sweet.
Egwene looking in other people’s dreams is like a teenager who just got his/her driver’s license. Sometimes such a drive a bit too recklessly because they think they know everything. Yet all it takes is one almost crash to give them some perspective. Egwene eventually learns this lesson. She stops trying to enter people’s dreams for the hell of it. In the future, she will only do it to communicate with people or, in the case of Rand, to try to break through his shield. Her trying to break through Rand’s shield is as much trying to solve a puzzle as to really wanting to know what is in his dreams.
I think there is an inconsistency in this chapter. Here, Egwene has no trouble finding other people’s dreams (Aviendha, Kadere and Isendre). Yet in a subsequent chapter (I think in ACOS) she says that it is not easy to find somebody’s dream in the floating dream space. She stated that distance in the real world does have any reflection of location in that floating dream space.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
The first redux post that I’ve caught up in real time and it’s a slow day. Oh well, I’ll be prepared for the next one!
AndrewHB @3
Or you know… she probably just has a lot less respect for Rand’s privacy than she would other Dreamers’. Since the lot of them are Aiel Wise Ones and will spank her both in and out of the Dream for being a snot.
On Thom and Moiraine:
I was never really sold on the whole ThomxMoiraine pairing. Seriously, what did they have to go on? Shared love of court intrigue? Rivalry for Rand’s attention? Oh and let’s not forget a little bribery/blackmail!
On cockroaches in Slurpees:
Cockroaches in slurpees usually mean somebody has been lax in cleaning the dispenser during off hours. It’s all the sugar accumulating. Attracts all sorts of pests. I’m missing the point aren’t I? :P
I like to say that hallucinogenic drugs are for people who don’t keep dream journals to record the weeeeird experiences they (at least I) non-phamaceutically have every night. They reveal plenty about my character, but are very low on solutions to my dilemmas.
Right now, I’d much rather face the past than the future.
Here you go. Knock yourself out.
http://dreamscience.ca/en/documents/publications/_2003_Nielsen_Reprint_D_13_211-235_TDQ.pdf#page=6
Page 17 onward are the more pertinent sections. Keep in mind the sociodemographic of college students and the theme trends (although one data trend was suggestive of a disturbing trend at colleges), but it’s all still fairly illuminating and it has a pretty good sample size.
I used to have dreams where my teeth would fall out, grow back, and then fall out again. I would try to talk to people to explain what was going on and I would have to spit teeth out into my hand so I could mumble a few words before my mouth filled with loose teeth again. Oddly enough the location for these teeth waterfall dreams was usually a movie theater. Better than dreams where I was chased and shot repeatedly in the back after falling down. I haven’t had a good flying dream since I was a kid.
Anyway check out the themes. You all might enjoy them.
Our dreams are not only weird and hard to decipher, they’re sometimes naughtier than we are. I wonder if people could get (truly or falsely) accused of being Darkfriends based on what some snoop saw in their dreams. Though that’s further muddled when the Chosen Forsaken are actively messing with peoples’ dreams.
/ramble
I first read TFoH 16 years ago, and I’ve only just now noticed something interesting here. Obviously Aviendha’s dream of giant Rand chasing her while she’s naked is a metaphor for how she is trying to escape her attraction to Rand, who may or may not be consciously pursuing her romantically.
But it occurs to me that it’s also an almost-exact foreshadowing of The Far Snows chapter, where she runs naked through a gateway to a snowy Seanchan to escape Rand, falls through cracked ice, and then he catches her. And she says “I will run no more.” Except here in the dream she runs across a cracked clay landscape, which would be much more familiar to her than a snowy one. She probably saw this exact event repeatedly in the Three Rings ter’angreal and is only half-remembering it, and it’s reflected in her dreams.
9. fernandan
My understanding is that Aviendha’s trip through the rings revealed to her part of her fate:
At some point, Rand would see her naked by accident, and this would result in MPS.
This is the same pattern as what Moiraine saw: One day, news of Morgase’s death would come, and the next day would be the day of confrontation with Lanfear.
This is shaming to her, because she promised to watch him for her near-sister, and now knows that she cannot avoid this shame no matter what she does. She deliberately flaunts herself in front of him – because if it’s not by accident, it doesn’t count. She is horrified when the Wise Ones tell her to spend time with Rand, because that increases the chances of an accident. She is furious when his actions suggest an interest in her, because she wants that interest, even though she cannot acknowledge it.
When he finally sees her getting ready for a wetlander bath, just before she opens a gateway to run away, all she can do is stammer about how she did not arrange for him to see her.
It’s not so much that she is misremembering a vision of the Far Snows. She has seen herself bed Rand a hundred thousand times, in countless variations, always being triggered by him seeing her naked by accident.
@10 Wow, I never saw that, but it makes perfect sense! Awesome. @9 is a great point too.
@5
I see what you did there (but Leigh’s not taking the bait).
@9 and 10
Nice job, totally missed that.
The Aiel vs. the White Tower: I can see why Moiraine is concerned–aside from thinking Siuan has the Tower behind her (hah!) and is persuading the rest of the Westlands to follow Rand which would be ruined if he showed up with Aiel, there’s the whole Aiel War in her native Cairhien thing. And it is typical of the Aiel to not care what happens in the Westlands and think it has nothing to do with them because they’re obviously the only culture that matters. But then again–broken people, remnant of a remnant will be saved? Bigger more personal issues there. And even aside from what we know has happened in the Tower, Rand was absolutely right when he said the Tairens had to be forced to follow him. If she expects him to gather the lands behind him, and for them to be loyal, he needs an army that can make the reluctant/scheming/selfish people do so, and the Aiel are it at this point.
Still, overall it is quite the dilemma where you can’t quite dismiss either side. Good thing Couladin crosses over the Dragonwall and mucks everything up, so Rand and the Aiel coming after him can be seen as saviors, eh? At least by the Cairhienin for sure who, considering the last the time the Aiel did that, have a rather important weight lent to their opinion. And after that, Rand’s thesis is proven true…thanks to the Aiel, he gets the Cairhienin, which convinces the Tairens, and when you add in Mat and Bashere you get a force that can actually liberate Illian from Sammael, who are suitably and genuinely grateful too. But it all starts here.
Bair’s insightful speech about the Pattern not seeing ji’e’toh dovetails rather well with Moiraine telling Perrin in TDR that the Wheel is neither good nor evil and requires both to weave the Pattern. It just goes to show that even when it comes to important cultural concepts like ji’e’toh, the Aiel can still see more eye-to-eye with Aes Sedai than might seem apparent on the surface. It’s interesting though, talking about surrendering to fate/the Pattern rather than fighting it being the way to find happiness…since the Wheel is turning by both saidin and saidar, yet this statement suggests the only way to get through life less painfully is to act only like a saidar user, never a saidin user. Perhaps the statement should be less emphatic, that there are times when fighting is both needed and productive (like say for ta’veren or threads closest to them) because this makes them stronger and better able to face what comes, or when it will help you determine the way fated things happen rather than whether they do at all. (Or does this indicate the Creator is female? LOL!)
Leigh always wondering about whether there are Aiel women with two husbands really is a pointed observation after the bit where Egwene wonders if it’s true but can’t bring herself to ask. And you know, she can complain (and rightly so) about Jordan never answering or showing it directly, but I have to think him having the idea be brought up at all, even in the context of Egwene being uncertain and never able to ask about it, is itself proof that it does happen. Why even broach the subject if you didn’t want the reader to consider it possible? So I’m pretty confident it does happen, and that if Egwene hadn’t gotten up the nerve to ask, the Wise Ones would have answered in the positive, and as matter-of-factly (and as incredulous that she wouldn’t know or expect it) as anything else they tell her. :)
Otherwise, just a nice slice-of-life chapter that really shows Aiel culture well, I think. Even if the specifics of how ji’e’toh work can be confusing, I think overall the system is very realistic, honorable, and yes as fascinating as Leigh commented on the first time around. I also love not just Egwene’s innate understanding of it even as she thinks she doesn’t, but the genuinely loving and true friendship Amys, Bair, and Melaine have. Also, poor Aviendha, asking about wetlanders and sister-wives because she’s so desperate to be able to be true to both her friend and her feelings for Rand.
Oh and as for spying on dreams, it seems to me the Aiel, despite their code of honor, have a very strong sense of the ends justifying the means. Although the way they act about traditional spying vs. spying on dreams suggests they do see them as somehow different rather than dream-spying being something they otherwise wouldn’t do if it weren’t necessary to survive. I think the suggestion Leigh made (I think it’s later in this book) that it’s because they see dreams as an involuntary product of the subconscious–and thus something which can be freely viewed and interpreted the same waybody language, expressions, and tones can–is a good way to reconcile this.
Chapter 6: Love the symbolism of Rand fighting atop the mosaic of the Aes Sedai symbol atop the Roof of the Maidens. Also love how once he realizes the danger Darkhounds pose, he immediately runs to go defend Mat from them. And using balefire to save him: foreshadowing of the climax in Caemlyn!
The fact Moiriane, quintessential Aes Sedai, actually shows her shock at the medallion keeping the One Power from working just shows how rare such a ter’angreal actually is. I still wonder how the Finn were able to give such a thing to him, since they cannot channel themselves. Didn’t Jordan say the Eelfinn collected things from those who came into their realm, either as payment for requests or when the querents didn’t deal for a way out/got lost/came in via the Tower without the contract and so died there? In which case I assume that’s where the medallion came from…but that doesn’t explain who made it or how. Elayne had a great deal of trouble duplicating it, so either it’s a one-of-a-kind item, or the fact it blocks the One Power gives it a special difficulty in the creation process. (Makes sense to me–using magic to create something anti-magic is quite the paradox.)
And speaking of Moiraine, we have both the proof of why Rand needs her in her discussion about Darkhounds and balefire (which wouldn’t be an issue if she hadn’t worked so hard to manipulate and control him that he rightly doesn’t trust her), and her realization (prompted by knowing her departure and most likely death is coming) what she did wrong and how she has to fix it if she’s to have any chance of helping him in time. Doesn’t make what she does any less shocking (as evidenced by boulder Lan showing his emotions on the subject), but I remember upon first reading being so relieved. Not just because now they could work together and help each other, but it seemed to me that Moiraine realizing this was a major character growth for her. Not because she needed to be humbled per se, but because learning humility is something that makes her more effective as well as kinder, gentler, and more sympathetic to others I think. Basically, allowing the good heart and intentions we’ve known she has to get past the arrogance and pride of both Cairhienin noble and Aes Sedai.
I also can’t help thinking that doing this and thereby earning Rand’s trust is a big part of how and why Moiraine came to trust Rand did know what he was doing and could later tell him he had done/would do well–because once she was able to learn his plans and thought processes, she understood he was intelligent, insightful, and good-hearted and not acting out of madness or ignorance or being a typical male. So instead of fighting him and dismissing everything he planned to do, she was able to modify and shift his plans where needed, adding her own experience and knowledge to account for things he didn’t know or show him how he could accomplish what he wanted without screwing things up too much. A give and take that resulted in better outcomes for both of them. And that’s wonderful.
Quick side note: when Rand is thinking about not wanting to let the Maidens fight and die, he notes that he believes “it was a man’s place to die if necessary before a woman had to.” Note that last phrase. His belief is still stupid and taking the choice away from the women, but he is acknowledging that sometimes yes, women do have to die for others. He just wants to put it off as long as possible, or thinks men doing so is more necessary. It’s not much, but at least he does admit women dying can be a thing that has to happen.
As for balefire, not much to say there that hasn’t been said before. Still a very cool but scary scifi concept, still something that is indeed needed sometimes, but must be used very carefully and judiciously. I am glad it was able to save Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean, as well as kill Aran’gar, Be’lal, Rahvin, and Semirhage, but it was also very important to the Pattern that Egwene found the anti-weave to it. I also always loved the creepy weird way Jordan described what it did to TAR in particular.
Moiriane’s reaction to seeing a Skimming gate: nice sensawunda there. I kind of wish we’d gotten more of these from various Aes Sedai in the series, but getting it from Moiraine herself is pretty awesome. I do wonder how in the world Jordan justified the backwards way Skimming and Traveling work though. You can say “it’s magic and it doesn’t make sense”, but we’re talking about a guy who knew physics inside and out and made a well-structured, cohesive, logical, Magic A is Magic A system. But for the life of me I never could figure out his rationale here. Is there something in quantum physics that could explain this, even tangentially?
Lanfear: I have to say, as much as I think Lews Therin is right and she always loved power and ambition more than anything else, I can’t help wondering if maybe, at some point, she did love him. Regardless, either way hearing him speak such things must indeed have been very shocking for her, since I don’t think she knew it was possible for past-life memories to bleed through that way. Semirhage claimed Graendal said it was, and Graendal implied as much in the prologue, but Lanfear didn’t believe her, and it obviously must be a thankfully rare thing, so…yeah, pretty overwhelming all around. Also, I always thought Leigh’s theory about the Lews Therin voice was the right one, and the evidence supported it, but I have to admire that Jordan (and even Sanderson right up to the end on Dragonmount) used language which could mean either theory was right. And in the end it doesn’t really matter after the integration, so I’m fine with letting people believe what they want. (I’m usually fine with that anyway, so long as what they believe isn’t hurting anyone, but I’m particularly fine when there is no right or clear answer and the resolution really is a case of personal taste.)
I do wonder if she was telling the truth about Rahvin. Lanfear’s explanation is very roundabout, but then Rahvin was supposed to be good at manipulation and political diplomacy. The only other who could have sent them (since Demandred is elsewhere and Graendal won’t act so aggressively unless forced to) is Sammael and he would seem to have even less reason to go after Rand at this point. Then again, he sent Darkhounds after Perrin while Rahvin sent only Darkfriends–while the Forsaken probably all can access various Shadow creatures and agents at a given moment, this seems to suggest Darkhounds being Sammael’s minions of choice, the same way Gray Men were for Ishamael–and if they are trying to bait Rand into attacking Rahvin, having Sammael send them but Lanfear tell him it was Rahvin would do that. Except…later on when Nynaeve listens in the plan is described as luring Rand into attacking Sammael. Maybe they thought Rand would distrust Lanfear’s word (as well he should!) and thus automatically conclude the opposite, that it was Sammael? So does that mean Rahvin did send them, for the same misdirecting reason as above? Or did Sammael send them after all in a double subversion? Gah! The Forsaken “twisty-snake-square” icon really does fit them so well. I’ve gone cross-eyed.
Anyway, speaking of slant-wise thinking, Rand was very clever in how he made Lanfear think he didn’t care about Morgase, and also how he explains his dream-warding and gets her not to go after the Wise Ones by questioning her giving open aid. And hah, Lanfear noticing Egwene’s interest in Gawyn! You’d think she’d remember that later at the docks, but not only was she completely nuts at that point, she may have figured hurting Egwene would still upset Rand because she was his companion and from his village, even if he had no romantic designs on her anymore.
Chapter 7: While it’s annoying to have Egwene assume Aviendha’s belt buckle gift means Rand is getting a swelled head, she really has no way to know otherwise. Yes, she could just ask, but assuming Aviendha would even tell her (since she still feels shame over not being able to resolve her dilemma), what would make her think an Aiel would give such a gift? After all, the Dragon Reborn is a wetlander prophecy.
On the other hand I really wish she had looked in on Mat’s dreams–not because I want her to be a voyeur but because I think she’d have been surprised by what she found there. Especially if anything there reflected his countless memories of other men! Yup, still feel sorry for Isendre too; I can only assume it’s Kadere whose torture she dreams of (the Maidens treat her terribly but I don’t think they actually torture her), unless it was Lanfear or even the Dark One or Ishy back when he was alive. And oh that dream of Aviendha’s just makes my heart hurt more. But I can understand, again, why Egwene misinterprets it; how could she ever think at this point, even as accepting of Aiel ways as she’s become, that Aviendha might love Rand too? After all she’s doing a very good job of acting like she hates him, and that dream really does have more than one possible meaning.
Anyway, at least Egwene does feel enough shame to decide to stop snooping on people’s dreams, so there’s that. Though I do have to snerk about the point that doing so is the only way to learn anything in WOT.
Still love the scene where Rand makes the fountains flow. It’s heartwarming, beautiful, and tear-inducing all at once. I can only wonder what the Ogier stonemasons will do when they finish Rhuidean.
Yeah, the rings of Rhuidean are yet another mind-boggling concept, but I love it anyway because I love my fantasy tropes! And they really do show every possible future, though it is indeed shocking to think prim Cairhienin Moiraine could ever consider sleeping with any man to get what she wanted, let alone Rand. Talk about desperation indeed.
Count me in for also loving Thom and Moiraine’s direct yet still oddly romantic engagement at the end of ToM, though I believe I said so before. :) It really fit both their characters.
Anyway, as Leigh said elsewhere, everything Moiraine says and does in this book really is poignant and fraught with meaning; I especially felt my throat choke up a bit at her thought at the end, about never getting to see what Rand would make of the Aiel. By contrast, the very subtle reference to New Spring and the pond incident was great. And contrary to what I said above, Moiraine may not see a use for humility, but she’s getting it anyway and it’s good for her. As we will see.
As for that bit regarding facing the future/past, I suspect when Jordan wrote it he was thinking of what Egwene saw of a possible future in her third Accepted test, since I am not sure whether the Bad Future scene was something he had planned to do himself. But maybe he did. Either way though, that line could have been a good inspiration for it later, whether it was originally planned to foreshadow that or not.
@1 Nick31: *chuckles* Ironic, since she isn’t anywhere near as old as many slowed Aes Sedai, but as a channeler she’ll eventually be much older than she looks anyway, so the soul comment is apt. I know what you mean though. Probably comes from her studies, and her determination to find the Dragon Reborn and save the world from the Shadow; that sort of thing tends to age one’s perspective beyond the present matters of romance and such, I should think.
@3 AndrewHB: Hmm, good catch.
@5 alreadymad: You jest but I actually think having Daes Dae’mar in common would be a big plus for them! That and it generally shows a common intellect level and a shared appreciation for politics, nobility, and seeing larger patterns in events. Also to be fair, she always did seem to like his stories and songs. Maybe she liked gleemen and bards back in Cairhien?
@6 AeronaGreenjoy: Really hearing you on that last comment there… Also your reply @8 raises a rather worrisome point. I’d hope that people would realize the conscious and subconscious are not the same thing. The Aes Sedai, after all, are all about saying one thing while thinking another, and the Wise Ones who have so much experience with dreams would surely have received plenty of evidence to show what is in dreams rarely ever translates directly and truthfully to the real world.
@9 fernandan: That’s a very astute observation! Although JonathanLevy gives it an important spin and specificity, I think.
@macster: It does seem like “the Forsaken probably all can access various Shadow creatures and agents at a given moment,” but I want to know how and where!!
Pretty sure I’d seem like a Darkfriend to any Randlander who knew how much I dream about Shadowspawn. It’s the books’ fault — if they told me everything I want to know, I wouldn’t keep wondering.
AeronaGreenjoy @15. The Forsaken all have a special ter’angreal that allows them to communicate with clerks at a communications center on the outskirts of the Town. The Forsaken place his/her request for the Shadowspawn he/she needs and where to send said Shadowspawn. The operator processes the request, making sure their are sufficient quantities of the ordered Shadowspawn. The company is known as ShadowEx. ShadowEx’s motto is “when it absolutely, positively has to be there; otherwise the DO will torture me for all eternity”
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@AndrewHB: Sounds good. X-D
Actually, it seemed like the kind of system that might have existed back when they were running large parts of rhe world. Though it would make more sense if Shadowspawn could travel through Gateways.
@Aerona and AndrewHB: LOL!!! Priceless.
I’ve been envisioning episodes in the lives of ShadowEx employees, and it’s highly entertaining. Thanks again.