As Denis Villeneuve’s Dune beings to take shape, I find myself with all sorts of questions. Can they condense such a complex novel into one or two films and do it justice? Will they change too many core themes, making the story unrecognizable? Where will all that hefty exposition come from? But upon hearing the casting of Stellan Skarsgård in the role of Baron Harkonnen, those questions rapidly filtered down to one:
Is this going to work?
Stellan Skarsgård is an excellent choice to play the Baron in terms of talent, but that’s not really what I’m getting at here. Frank Herbert’s Dune was written in the 1960s when certain types of coding were common for villainous characters. In the case of the Baron, there are two primary issues at hand, two characteristics that further argue his odiousness on the story’s behalf that are rightly seen as contentious today: the Baron is obese, and he is also queer.
In the history of Dune on screen, two different actors have portrayed Baron Vladimir Harkonnen: Ian McNeice in the 2000 Sci-Fi Channel miniseries, and Kenneth McMillan in David Lynch’s 1984 cult film. Lynch’s attempt is infamous for really leaning on those codified aspects of the Baron, to the point where the his sore-ridden appearance has been called out as a likely connection to the AIDs epidemic, which was a prevalent health crisis while the film was in production. Lynch also makes a point of connecting the Baron’s desire for men to deviancy and violence, deliberately juxtaposing his assault of a young man with a tender love scene between Duke Leto and Lady Jessica Atreides (who are the parents of the story’s “hero” Paul Atreides). Ian McNeice’s turn played down these aspects—his appearance was not altered to make him seem ill, he never physically attacks anyone, and the miniseries paid more attention to the fact that the baron was a rapist, his preference for men being incidental.
There have been attempts to explain this away within the narrative and recodify these choices—while Dune itself suggests that the Baron’s obesity might be the result of a genetic disease, Prelude to Dune, a prequel written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson retcons this idea and instead posits that the Baron Harkonnen was once a very fit and vain young man. He is given a disease by Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohaim after he drugs and rapes her in response to a Bene Gesserit sexual blackmail plot. With that retelling, the Baron’s corpulence is meant to be comeuppance for doing something reprehensible, a physical punishment meant to hurt his vanity by taking away the attractiveness he so prized in himself. Unfortunately, it does nothing to alleviate the connection being drawn between weight and hedonistic sadism, and this explanation isn’t present within the first book at all.
And so, the Baron Harkonnen being the only fat and only visibly queer person in the novel continues to be a problem for Dune. When a villain is the sole character to occupy certain characteristics, the reader or viewer is made keenly aware that those characteristics are being tied to their moral vacancy. Many evil characters in fiction are portrayed as fat (Vernon and Dudley Dursley in the Harry Potter series, The Trunchbull in Matilda, Dennis Nedry in Jurassic Park, etc.), just as many are portrayed as gay or queer (Zed in Pulp Fiction, Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs, Pavi Largo in Repo! The Genetic Opera, and so on). But there’s no reason that a new Dune film has to uphold those choices and keep reiterating those damaging tropes.
The physical appearance of the Baron is particularly noticeable in part because nearly everyone else in Dune is commonly portrayed as lithe and athletic (with the exception of the Baron’s elder nephew, the “Beast” Rabban). But there’s no reason that this has to be the case, and also no reason that the Baron must maintain such a specific silhouette. So how might Villeneuve’s film handle the physical appearance of Baron Harkonnen, as portrayed by Stellan Skarsgård? Outside of allowing the actor to play the role as he is, there are three likely options: (1) he gains weight to plays the role; (2) he wears a “fat suit” to play the role; or (3) his appearance is modified through CGI. All of these choices present potential problems, and it would be a major step forward if the film found a different way to highlight the Baron’s obsession with excess. There’s also his iconic suspensor belt to account for, a device that helps the Baron to walk due to his size, but the film could easily make this an affectation of laziness rather than a physical necessity. He is a powerful man, and is accustomed to having others do for him—the suspensor belt is an extension of that expectation. With that in mind, Baron Harkonnen needn’t be obese for the sole purpose of making misguided points.
As always, the issue with the Baron Harkonnen being the only openly queer character in Dune can be solved the way this problem can always be solved when creating an adaptation: by making it clear that there are other queer people in this universe. (And I don’t just mean the other Harkonnens, who are often queer-coded as well.) In effect, none of the characters in Dune have to be straight, so this is an easy problem to tackle. There are themes that turn on the issues of power in families where there are both spouses and concubines, and families that contain more than one wife—and so could easily contain more than one husband, too. This doesn’t throw off the gender politics of the story whatsoever because breeding remains a paramount issue in Dune regardless. The Bene Gesserit still must plot to bring about the Kwisatz Haderach.
It would be simple to show queer people among the Fremen of Arrakis, or the royal court’s intrigue, or the Bene Gesserit sisters. It would be unsurprising to learn that one of Duke Leto’s painfully loyal men harbored feelings toward him. (I’m not saying it’s Gurney Halleck, but I’m definitely saying that.) Queer people are everywhere, and should fit seamlessly into any narrative. Once that is done, then the fact that the Baron is queer is no longer a signal of a lack of morality. It becomes a fact about him, and nothing more, and narrative is no longer equating queerness with evil.
When you don’t shy away from these potential fixes, you avoid lazy pitfalls that undermine the messages that Dune is trying to convey. Then the story can focus on what makes the Baron truly monstrous—the fact that he spends all of his time plotting murder, sowing discord, and destroying populations of people to get his way—which in turn will make him a far more frightening opponent. By refusing to rely on outdated and hurtful tropes, Dune only comes out stronger.
Emmet Asher-Perrin is very intrigued about the casting for Dune overall, of course. You can bug him on Twitter, and read more of her work here and elsewhere.
The “hero” of the story is, indeed, Paul Atreides.
No need for quote marks, particularly in a parenthetical.
I don’t see why the film can’t address those issues by simply ignoring them. The Baron can be as fit as anyone else, with no suspensor belt, and his sexuality can just be ignored. Saves precious screen time for more important things anyway. The majority of people seeing the film won’t have read the book, and probably won’t after seeing the film either. There are lots of other ways to characterize the hedonism, excess, and power lust that are central to his character.
Heck, they’re probably not going to cast a teenager as Paul. He’s 15 at the start of the book and maybe 18 at the end. Probably in his mid-30’s when he dies at the end of Children of Dune.
You raise a couple of interesting points. I never paid any attention to the baron’s sexual proclivities but his obesity was a constant. I too was surprised by Skarsgard’s hiring, but agree he has loads of talent. And Lord yes, filming a great Dune will be a monumental task. Anyone who’s ever read Dune will go to the movie, but how many have never read Dune? I’m 77 but had never read it until last year. Of course, I read Book One twice and then the other two in Trilogy One. I search Dune 2019 almost daily to see if anyone else has been hired. Only (!) two years (?) to wait. May Denis find the wisdom of Muad ‘Dib.
I hope that the casting of Stellan Skarsgård is a sign that they already planned for him not to be such a problematic stereotype (though I think Ian McNeice was OUTSTANDING as the Baron); the Baron doesn’t have to be an obese character. They can take some theatrical liberties to re-imagine him a somewhat without losing the spirit of the original work.
I feel like the Baron’s sexuality in particular can simply be ignored. It’s not really germane to the plot in the first place, and he does PLENTY of other stuff that clearly shows his evilness (and he is evil…ETA: not that being gay makes him evil, but it’s pretty clearly a signifier for Herbert. Apologies for lack of clarity.). I’d argue that most of the people in the novel, especially the Padishah Emperor, the Bene Gesserit as a whole, and most of the Fremen and Atreides code as “amoral” with relatively few exceptions (not including Leto or Jessica…when a character points out in internal monologue how useful a kindness is in manipulating the populace? Amoral.)
So don’t even bother. It’s incidental. And encasing Stellan Skarsgard in CGI or even worse a fat suit? No thanks. Just present a normally sized Baron Harkonnen and ignore who he rubs his bits against…since you can have the plotting and political discussions without being in his bedchamber. I always figured that bit was a signal of the Harkonnen decadence, and there’s other ways to demonstrate THAT as well.
The problem of having Gurney Halleck being in any way queer is the problem of what is in the books. In ‘Children of Dune’, it becomes very clear that Gurney and Jessica are having an affair (kinda like Hector Elizondo and Julie Andrews do in ‘The Princess Diaries’.). Gurney was saved from slavery under the Harkonnens, and Gurney looked upon Leto as his savior, and as a hero. It was not sexual, if anything…Gurney loved Leto like the disciples loved Jesus. Could Thufir be gay? Yes. Could Duncan Idaho? You might be able to make him bi. Could Yeuh? Definitely not. However, it also depends on what other characters are featured in the film. Could Count Fenring be gay…possible, if you also make Margot Lady Fenring bi or a lesbian, if you reference her at all. But as Fenring is the Emperor’s right hand man and best friend, it’s almost the same problem of gay being evil as you have with the Baron. Could Fremen be LGBTQ? Possible, but you find problems of culture with “open” representation. Nomadic, tribal, based in Middle-Eastern culture, with all attendant baggage that THAT implies making Fremen with open gays or lesbians becomes an issue. If they decide to show the “spice orgy” after Jessica consumes and transforms the Water of Life, and all of the tribe partake, and then show shots of varied couples & triads & such in all sorts of combinations a bit like the rave in Zion scene in the Matrix Reloaded…that might work. And if they show life in the seitch, with queer representation being accepted by all members of the tribe. Again…possible.
Anyway it’s looked at, positive representation is problematic in the first Dune story, and in the sequel novels by Frank Herbert, as well as Herbert’s other works. Frank wrote in a time when the tropes of fat people (and I am a fat person) were, with the exception of Santa Claus, never positive, and anyone who would identify as LBGTQ were seen as a pervert, a freak and a menace to society.
In our society of today, we still have problems of positive representation making a dent in the perceptions of those who refuse to see and acknowledge them. It’s getting better, but the hate and fear are still there. Hopefully, if we reach the year 10,191, we will have solved these problems of representation, awareness, acceptance, and be the better for it.
I think you are misinterpreting what Mr. Herbert was doing with the Baron. He was a glutton, not overweight due to his metabolism or an eating disorder. He ate too much because he wanted to and thanks to his suspensor belt he could get away with it. Or to put it another way he was obsessed with over-consumption. I also think his sexuality is irrelevant; I recall he was almost assassinated while abusing a young boy. He was, in every sense of the word, a rapist. He raped his planet, he tried to rape Arrakis, he raped young children, etc. I might be an old (57) somewhat conservative person but even I know that homosexuality (I avoid the “Q” word just as much as the “N” word) does not equal child abusing rapists. However, having said all of that I think I understand your point; just as African-Americans were once uniformly portrayed negatively we should try to avoid continuing to do the same thing to any marginalized group. But, just as there are bad heterosexuals and bad European-Americans it isn’t realistic to believe there aren’t bad homosexuals and bad African-Americans. The solution, as you point out, is to portray the entire spectrum of behaviors in a group rather than rely on stereotypes.
Wait… how is Pavi Largo considered a queer hot button with all the pantie snatching and gen tern handling? Omnisexual sure, but really have people had an issue with him?
Saying the baron is “queer” is a misunderstanding and could even be a disservice… the baron is a pedophile, a rapist, and has no problem with incest. Paul is a teenager and so is feyd-rautha at the beginning of the story and the baron at least fantasizes with both. How do you prevent being queer from being associated solely with evil characters? Include a queer good character that does not exhibit the bad traits of the baron.
I see no problem in the baron being fat as long as it is not treated as fat shaming. How do you do that? You include other characters that are not necessarily fit.
The problem is not as big as it is made to be… just include other characters that represent those members of our society that are not athletes or who are queer.
Agree with Mssrs. Maloney and Oppenheimer. Trying to force homosexual traits on other characters in order to take the spotlight off of the deviant Baron’s own homosexuality would be a clumsy mistake. Especially with regards to the Fremen, who (as Mr. Maloney points out) are an overt reference to Arabs, not a culture traditionally tolerant of homosexuals to say the least. You could argue that this is science fiction, and therefore imagining an Arab-like culture completely accepting of them would not only be permissible but genuinely fascinating (and you wouldn’t be wrong), I think that level of revisionism would do a disservice to Herbert’s work. The easiest thing to do would be to remove the Baron’s own homosexuality. You could either gloss over his sexuality completely and focus on his myriad other horrible traits, or you could just make him a heterosexual rapist instead – it obviously wouldn’t lessen his vileness.
As for the Baron’s obesity, I don’t think it would be a big deal if they had cast a heavier actor to play him. His size is the result of his depravity after all, not the cause. But putting any actor in a fat suit tends to look a little ridiculous (especially if that includes “enlarging” the face/jowls). And as for CGI – please no. So with Skarsgard already cast (and being an excellent actor), I think they can forgo the obesity trait as well. Someone of his talent should be able to adequately convey the Baron’s immorality and hedonism with just the magic of “acting”.
So, Emily, you ever get through God Emperor? It’d be fun to get back to the rereads.
wiredog: They’ve already cast 23 year old Timothee Chalamet as Paul…
The producers of the newest rendition of Dune stick to the characters as they were written by Frank Herbert. There is not a single reason to make it relevant to current society. The story occurs 10K years in a future scifi world. Again, this has no relevance to our current world. Brian Herbert must have the producers follow the books.
Restating some points from earlier on, but I always got the impression that his weight was really a reflection of his constant and endless desire to consume and to possess. His obesity is really almost more psychological than physical, in that it stems entirely from the bottomless hunger that he (and, by extension, Harkonnens) have to take and keep everything. Also — as Dune did seem to be a very “sexless” book (people meet and have children, but it never seems very emotional or romantic), his desire for Paul and Feyd Ruatha also always seemed as much to possess and consume as everything else. The violence associated with this being sexual against someone of the same gender barely seemed to register, as I always figured he would have felt the same about any person of any expressed gender whose youth or beauty he wanted to take. All of this said, hell, yes to more same-sex romance in Dune — something this epic, sweeping and medieval would absolutely have room for the romance of Templars, Richard the Lion-Hearted, et al.
I hope I’m not saying this wrong — but in the end the Harkonnen way seems to be to take something, extract everything of the slightest value, and leave behind a destroyed husk. And this is a philosophy that extends in all directions and to all things.
I don’t think anyone is missing that the Baron’s obesity is supposed to be a result of his depravity. That’s like, the point–that obesity is a cheap and dirty way of representing that someone is depraved, gluttonous (i.e. sinful), wicked, lacking in self-discipline, etc.
This isn’t really necessary because his actions already let us know that he is evil.
The homosexuality never stuck me as being connected with his cruelty and brutality. His violent sexual assault did. I think as long as it is highlighted that he is someone who takes whatever he wants, the orientation becomes incidental. The overall weight and appearance however I have less ambivalence on. I do think his appearance is Germaine to his character. He is someone, whether it’s explained by the disease or not, that is preoccupied with his appetites. He feeds without restraint both sexually, through food, and power and position. Having him be obese is quite simply a visual marker for his attitude on the things he consumes. He does it voraciously and without constraint. It’s hard for me to picture a slender Baron who apparently has enough self control to exercise regularly, but lives in extraordinary excess in every other aspect of life. I think you’d have to do way more expositing around why a skinny man needs a suspension rig than with the immediate understanding that comes from an image of an extraordinary obese floating man who can hardly be separated from his carnal delights.
If there’s one casting I’m at all concerned with is Oscar Issac as Duke Leto. Not only is Done Leto considerably older than Lady Jessica, but he’s tall and imposing. Isaac is 5’9 and not even old enough to be the father of Timothy Chalamet.
Correct me if I’m wrong. In the original novel it doesn’t explicitly state that the Baron is gay/queer. It mentions how he has an appetite for young boys although what that appetite is is never elaborated upon. The Baron may only like to torture/cannibalize young men. The David Lynch movie seemed to touch on this in the scene where the Baron is introduced and pulls out the heartplug. Denis V. will probably do something similar with stellan skarsgard. I think it’ll work.
Can we all agree that Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson’s “Dune” books really should have no impact the original novels? In Dune, the Baron muses that Raban is already letting himself go and will need the suppressors before too long, indicating that it is a genetic condition (or maybe environmental, something to do with Geidi Prime perhaps). Then BH and KJA come along and make it a disease. It doesn’t track. Also, how would he be able to drug a Reverend Mother. She could simply alter the drug in her own body. Their books are poorly researched fan-fiction that happen to be written by the author’s son.
Also, I would join the call for Emily to resume the reread, beginning with ‘God Emperor of Dune’.
The Baron is a rapacious monster. He rapes the land and the people. He craves dominance and exploitation. His sexual orientation is clearly secondary to his sadism. Men are more likely his preference as they are more difficult to physically conquer than women (therefore a greater conquest for his ego), but it’s clear that Herbert was making a commentary on avarice and the corruption of power through the Baron. You never get the sense that Herbert found homosexuality offensive in his writings.
Because some people are fat and some are gay/bi, ithat one character is underscored by a particularly loathsome behavior that happens to be both, that this character now must be retconned to avoid hurting feelings and perpetuating negative narratives? But the narrative isn’t that being gay is bad, or being overweight is bad (though it is clearly bad for your health when extreme). The narrative is that the Baron’s mad desires are so strong that they push him to be come a Freakshow, supported by floating suspensors on his legs – that (clap) is (clap) not (clap) healthy (clap).
Your order of causality is all messed up: he’s not evil because he’s fat and gay, he is a pure, malignant, psychopathic narcissist and so he doesn’t care how he looks or even how he feels, he just wants to consume the world and that results in corpulence and sexual exploitation of men, women and children. It seems quite logical, if a bit on the nose. You might fault Herbert for a lack of subtly but I don’t think the message itself is directly harmful to LGBTQ or the overweight.
Sincerely,
– Fat Gay
The Baron has to be obese – in a prequel, he repeatedly rapes a certain Bene Gesserit and she infects him with a terminal disease. He was as svelt and beautiful as Feyd Rautha in his youth. I’m pretty sure it’s divulged in House Harkonnen.
So she was taking revenge for his revenge for her attack on him? And what did he do about that?
Machiavelli was clearly right: A prince should never do someone an injury that does not cripple their ability to hurt him.
The last time I read the book I was struck by the youth of his victims. He’s a monster because he’s a pedophile.
He’s not “queer,” he’s a pedophile. He uses his power to engage in sexual predation, as men in power are known to do. There is zero problem including this aspect.
No. His obesity and sexual tendencies are a defining part of the Baron. This should not be changed because you’re afraid of offending obese people and homosexuals. The suspensors are part of his defining characteristics as well as his love of young boys…as well as his ruthlessness. Consider the scene where Fayde tries to poison him with a needle on the leg of a young boy he is about to rape. It is a pivotal scene, since it shows his sexual deviancy, his keenness in avoiding traps and his wrath, since he makes Fayde personally slaughter his favorite whores in retaliation. These characteristics are not only important… they are defining. It should not be changed out of some sense of offending people. This is a story…and possibly the greatest sci-fi epic ever told. It should stand as is… with all the pulp.
I first read Dune when I was 7 years old and it was not the Baron’s homosexuality that struck me initially, but his paedophilia and the need for complete power over his sexual subjects. He admires Feyd Rautha erotically, sure, but does not appear to molest him. The subjects of his sexual appetites are boy slaves. It was only upon later re-reads that I wondered whether Herbert was making the once-common conflation of homosexuality and paedophilia.
The ‘heartplug scene’ with the simpering slave in Lynch’s interpretation was bizarre, it seemed like some kind of pantomime of the book – not that I saw it until years after it came out.
If you’re going to make anyone in the Atredies queer doesn’t Duncan make the most sense considering God Emporor?
Folks seem to be missing a big reason for the Baron’s title as well as his homosexuality. A Baron is at the bottom of nobility while a Duke is at the top. I always saw this as symbolic of the envy felt for Leto. And a major thread of the story was continued human existence & evolution. The Baron being homosexual & not wanting to produce an heir was opposite to the Bene Gesserit breeding program. He was in essence, a genetic dead end, worse than Count Fenrig (a genetic eunuch) because he chose to be one. In the prequels, when the Baron was forced to participate in the breeding program, his donation sample was rejected as being unnatural.
While these traits may be uncomfortable for some, they provide important details which fill out the story & create archetypes greater than simple characters.
The Baron is not queer or gay, he’s a pedophile and a predator. Please let’s not make him gay because that just keeps that line blurred between homosexuals and pedophiles. The Baron absolutely is NOT interested in men, he’s interested in young boys. This fits his character as a predator and a sadist and should not be removed or ignored but it does mean he should stay far away from queer or gay stereotypes and stick to the dark and dangerous predator of almost pure evil that he is. Most pedophiles are more on the straight side of the spectrum than gay anyway and he should be too.
I don’t the fact the baron is gay is used to depict his “odiousness”, I think it’s the fact that he is portrayed as having a penchant for young, underaged boys.
As a heavy-set guy myself I just have to point out I will be very upset if the baron is not fat, or obese, or “Big Boned”. These characteristics of Baron harkonnen, along with his sexuality, is primarily what sets the stage for what makes the baron such a great villain. His sexuality prevents him from having errors of his own which is why he must keep and put up with his two nephews and likewise the size makes him vain and motivates the Ark of his Vengeance towards both Atreides and the emperor. The way to counteract the negative Trope, is if other characters possess the same traits but are clearly not evil. Anything else would be censorship and an absolute disgrace to the story and the writer.
More than laziness, they can show that he uses suspender belt because he is always lifted above ground, because he wants to tower over everybody in his presence. Vanity and envy in one stone.
I agree with most commenters that Baron Harkonnen is fat and a child-abuser by his own choice, and those choices are defining aspects of his self-created character. Dropping either characteristic or adding them to other characters as a kind of camouflage would be a travesty. No doubt one could find plenty more politically incorrect things in ‘Dune’ if one searched, but ‘correcting’ them wouldn’t leave much to adapt.
I also disagree with the allegation that Frank Herbert, J. K. Rowling, Michael Crichton, Thomas Harris and others are all guilty of reiterating damaging tropes.
Instead of labelling the Baron as being a pedophile, perhaps he could also be considered an ‘ephebophile – ‘ one who is sexually attracted to adolescents, generally aged between 15 to 19 years of age. This also reminds me of old Herbert in Family Guy, who is generally attracted to the son Chris.
Take away the Baron’s suspensor belt, and a couple scenes need to be blocked and choreographed slightly differently on screen than the way they were described in the book. But slim him down and eliminate the references to his pedophilia (or other things that one group or another considers sexually deviant) and…well, actually nothing else about the story really changes much at all! Yes, certain aspects of his character are critical to the story—his Machiavellian ruthlessness, his amorality, his destructive consumptionism—but suggesting that they can only be established by having the screenwriters hew close to Herbert’s original portrayal is problematic. Symbolism is not synecdoche. Surely contemporary directors and screenwriters can find ways to establish the Baron’s essential character traits in ways that align more with contemporary sensibilities.
–
Mmm, I can think of four who probably need to remain cis-het: Paul/Chani and Jessica/Leto. The bonds both couples form, which go well beyond the needs of dynastic politics, drive key parts of the plot in ways that might make it difficult to introduce bisexuality and/or (genuine, not political) polyamory without wreaking some havoc on the story. Halleck and Idaho are definitely better options if some queerness is to be added.
In god emperor, being homosexual was viewed by those in power as an innocent aspect of adolescence. They said that some of the greatest warriors were likely LGBT. Only Duncan Idaho, a man out of time, seemed to have any problem with it.
As a fat person, I’m definitely sensitized to the fat = evil trope (not to mention fat = clownish). I never saw the Baron as an evil fat man. He’s bloated. Bloated with power, with lust, with whatever medications are keeping his STD(s) from killing him. I also got the impression from the first movie that at least part of his bulk was some kind of pressurized suit, possibly to deal with issues of poor blood circulation.
Calling the Baron “queer” forces the focus on a singular aspect of his sexuality. When I first read the books I didn’t associate the Baron as queer, gay, or homosexual at all. I don’t think I really put his sexuality into any framework at all. I do remember that I slapped him into excessive and over the top though. Now I would classify him as being an obsessive-compulsive, power hungry, hedonistic sadist with a taste for the excessive.
Because the Dune universe is a quasi-feudalistic environment it allows him to indulge as he so chooses.
As far as representing the Baron keep it in line with the book and leave it at that.
Its been a long time since I read Dune. Is Baron Harkonnen really a “homosexual”? As in, he is only physically aroused by men? Or is he a hedonist, who takes whatever pleasure he wants with no regard for anything else? I got the sense that what he is really attracted to was power, and specifically, having the power to force his will on others. Maybe I’m misremembering.
@60
The only time he’s mentioned as having sex with a woman was when Jessica was conceived, when he allowed himself to be seduced. Presumably Bene Geserits know how to seduce even the gayest of men in order to further the breeding program.
Apparently moderation is required for all comments to this entry? Or only in off-hours when the mods aren’t in yet?
Makes sense, I guess, as this is the sort of entry that might get some heated conversation.
Re: moderation–since moderation is an around-the-clock job, but we all have other duties and responsibilities here on the site, using the Comment Review feature allows us to keep up with discussions that require sustained and careful attention from the mods (not just overnight or on the weekends, but throughout the day/week).
Also, now might be a good time for a reminder that our commenting guidelines can be found here–if your comment does not appear in this thread, feel free to read through the guidelines and try another approach if you want to take part in the conversation. As always, rude, dismissive, and aggressive comments have no place in this discussion, so please be civil and constructive in your responses.
Herbert was working to make the Baron seem shockingly voracious in the 60’s, ignoring social norms of all kinds: health, consent, child welfare. Making one of the most powerful characters prefer boys and ignore the contemporsry Twiggy culture added to the shock. The rest of his clan were just as evil / voracious and not shown as LGBTQ in any way. They were all portrayed as sadistic carnivores in the Lynch movie (and in the BH prequels, as non-canon as they may be), but I didn’t come away thinking that all meat eaters are therefore evil.
The new director’s other movies treated gender and violence in very interesting, fair ways, so I’m not too worried about the new Baron.
The challenge is that this new movie is not a book in 1966, nor a movie in 1984 nor 2000. The social zeitgeist is different — audiences react differently to coding, and they’re more vocal about it.
Saying “this is a world 10,000 years from now, with inevitable social evolution; its mix of customs and mores needn’t resemble here-and-now” isn’t an excuse — art is always about here-and-now. This is a central tension in SF/F worldbuilding — even if the author doesn’t intend to write an allegory, it’s forced to act as one, considered as comment on the human condition. This is “bivalence” (“means two things at once”) and some audience members are more comfortable with it. Given that it’ll be a more cerebral movie than typical Hollywood fare we can hope that “some” is “most”, but it takes only a few un-reflective, knee-jerk comments to poison the public perception and derail the conversation.
The story has a conspiracy of antagonists (Padishah Emperor, Bene Gesserit, Harkonnens) with different personalities and motives, and if the latter are to be efficiently represented as “rapacious” (more specific than “evil”, and more thought-provoking) then the character traits need to be unmistakably “rapacious, we can agree that’s bad, right?” and not ambiguously “gay and fat, because these characters think gay and fat is bad, or maybe the authors do?” I suggest attacking the problem with multiple symbols:
* The Baron’s boudoir has a pile of (sometimes murdered) pretty young things of both sexes
* The Baron always has expensive-looking food near to hand
* He’s not “effeminate” in any other way
* Feyd-Rautha and Rabban show the same traits, just less pronounced
* Harkonnen décor and dress is more gauche than Imperial or Atreides
* Other Harkonnens are casually groping the staff
* The other antagonists (Emperor, Fenrig, etc.) comment upon these things, as in “these guys are sick, and we wish we had a better class of co-conspirator”
The last point is addressed several times in the novel — the Harkonnens are the only ones who hate the Atreides, whereas everybody else admires them but is opposed as a political necessity.
You’re right, there is nothing in the Baron’s essence as a character that actually requires him to be obese or queer. But he can keep those characteristics if there are other characters who are not evil and share them. Or, they can not use those things, and just show how evil he is because of his actions.
@15 – ebonecircus: He’s 23, but looks way younger than he is, about 15.
@22 – Trevor: It’s been a long time since I read the book, but I remember Leto being more imposing due to his charisma and leadership qualities than his height. Plus, he’s 39, can be easily made-up to look 50, and Chalamet looks a lot younger than his 23 years.
@65 – Phillip: Great comment, you make excellent points.
Baron Harkonnen is not disgusting because he’s obese , he’s obese because he’s disgusting. He’s self indulgence in the worst way physically devouring food, sexually devouring helpless slave children, killing at whim, etc.
Setting aside the queer aspect for a moment, exactly what is the issue with making the villain fat? Speaking as a fat guy myself, some of the greatest villains in movies have been fat guys (Orson Welles in “Touch of Evil,” Raymond Burr in “Rear Window,” etc.). Personally, I lament the dearth of sinister fat guys in movies these days.
I don’t object to altering a character from even a classic book for contemporary movie audiences (I’m all for Idris Elba as James Bond) but the image of the Baron as this enormous man so huge he needs a floating gadget just to move around is such an ingrained part of the character, making him thin would be akin to making Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh cheerful and upbeat.
Also, it has been long enough since I read the book that I don’t recall Herbert’s description of Thufir Hawat but in the Lynch movie he was played by Freddie Jones, not exactly anyone’s idea of svelte.
Perhaps the baron can merely be a little overweight with the emphasis being he is only this way because he is lazy and gives in to his excessive lifestyle. Juxtaposed with his nephew who he almost forces into being a perfect example of masculinity. He doesnt need to be obese, but seen as someone who could be fit and lithe if he only put some time into it. I still think he should have his flying suit because that really points to his attitude. He thinks himself better those mere mortalsthat must walk to get around.
@73 – Gordon: No, making Eeyore cheerful and upbeat would be akin to making the Baron a good, kind, and selfless person.
I think the fact that the Baron is a pedophile and a rapist should be emphasised in the new film, (as has been mentioned in other posts. The fact that he is bi seems to be over looked in both the original article and most comments. He is after all the Lady Jessicas father. The fact that he is fat indeed obese is an important fact in the story. The book,by way of the Fremen talks a lot about ‘water fat’ and the fact that the Barron and Rabban are both fat or obeservices show just how far removed they are from both the Fremen and Arakis itself. It is a way to show just how little they care about the people of Dune and a way to further there ‘vile life style’ , conspicuous consumption in the most in your face way possible.
Any discussion of ‘fat villain’ tropes needs to acknowledge that the association has been around for at least (and probably more than) a century and a half and that it comes out of class-based stereotypes. While obesity today has more associations with poverty in Westernized cultures, it used to be a common code for ‘rich fat cat’ in an era where eating lots of rich food and having leisure to not do manual labor were more firmly the provenience of the wealthy. In political cartoons since the Industrial Revolution you can find this on display very frequently, often rubbing in the fact that the wealthy landlord/industrialist was eating fat while the poor starved. The Baron, a greedy aristocrat, comes out of this mold.
@1: Paul Atreides is certainly the protagonist of Dune, but it is very arguable if he is a hero. He unleashes a tidal wave of death, destruction and mayhem that utterly dwarfs the worst depravities of the Harkonnens a thousand times over.
Paul is an interesting protagonist mainly because he is not really a traditional hero, despite following the hero’s journey (from a certain point of view). In this he is more like someone like Anasurimbor Kellhus from Scott Bakker’s somewhat Dune-aping Prince of Nothing trilogy. A protagonist who, at a certain point in the story, has a positive impact on events? Yes. A hero in any kind of traditional sense? No, not really.
@77 – Owain: “Water fat” does not mean “fat”, it means not lean and water-economizing as the Fremen are. A person not considered obese by any normal standard could still be called “water fat” by Fremen.
@79: I think if someone only read the first book, it’d be more understandable to think of Paul as a hero. Certainly Lynch’s movie plays up the triumphalism of the ending. Dune Messiah (which Herbert considered an essential part of the story, and would’ve included in the first book if his editor had allowed it) makes it very clear that that’s not what’s going on.
Dune is one of my favorite books and I’m a queer female person. This issue with queerness/decadence is an issue that comes up a lot of science fiction (see Hunger Games Capitol citizens).
I think if they just make it clearer that Baron Harkonnen is a pedophile and not in fact queer that will solve a lot of problems. His predatory preference is often conflated with queerness because when Herbert was writing those two things were often conflated (and still are). It’s a very unfortunate hateful blindspot of his because he was very homophobic and one of Brian Herbert’s brothers was gay and disowned by Frank Herbert. There are ways to explicitly portray someone as a predator and also include other folks for queer representation to make it clear the difference.
http://the-toast.net/2014/12/12/three-adults-discuss-dune-seriously-length/
I think that the Baron Harkonnen needs to stay morbidly obese. He always made me think of King Henry VIII. Once a large and powerful warrior, but since gone to fat from the overindulgence of his unchecked appetites. I also always thought of him as pan-sexual, with pedophile tendencies. He has too much money and power for anyone to restrain him from indulging in his every whim, and that lifestyle has taken its toll.
The solution to the problems of his on screen representation is to introduce characters of all shapes, sizes, and sexual predilections across the cast of characters.
Perhaps the Bene Gesserit are all conditioned to be pan-sexual without regard to their personal preferences (which would be an interesting added complication with the morality of the order).
The depictions of Fremen spice orgies and plural marriages demonstrates an ingrained set of sexual mores different to what we typically see depicted. I can think of no reason that homosexuality would be discouraged among such people.
The Sardaukar could very easily be depicted as having very Spartan/Lakonion ideas about homosexual sex creating stronger bonds in a military unit.
Any number of the Atreides, Harkonnen, and imperial retinues could be of body types typically unseen on Arrakis. Perhaps “water fat” is more inclusive of a label used for describing the appearance of offworlders. While we are adding characters of more varied body types, we should also make a point to add some ethnic diversity to the cast. It’s honestly too bad that Jessica and Paul have already been cast. I think it would be a fantastic opportunity to have the Lady Jessica played by a POC, and Paul to have a mixed heritage.
I don’t see Hebert as ‘fat-shaming’ or anything like that – it’s symbolic of how he (and his House / family) cannibalizes his planet – look to the description (in the books) of traveling through the city from the palace to the arena, multiple times, plus the comments after the gladiator fight – he eats to prove that he is the ruler of the planet, with the majority of the citizens as barely making it by. Likewise his preference for boys isn’t what makes him evil, but it’s his sexual appetite that highlights his evility (is that a word?) He may also use women / girls; it’s not fully clear, but it was the boy that was the method of the assassination attempt, and also one other time, don’t recall the exact scenario.
Anyways, I hope they do have Stellan be larger than he typically is, it’s part of the character – not showing that fat = evil, more like evil = gluttanous, which manifests in fat.
To the various comments along the lines of “the Baron isn’t gay, he’s just a pedophile and a rapist”— strictly talking about what Herbert seemed to have in mind, as opposed to what might be good to do in an adaptation, I think that’s an oversimplification. The Baron’s consciousness later takes over the body of a woman, and Herbert makes it pretty clear that he sees this as a good opportunity to have sex with (adult) men.
My impression was always the Baron’s weight was not due to some rare genetic disorder or an engineered disease, but simple tied to his uncontrolled appetites. He was fat because he luxuriated in excessive amounts of rich food and made no effort to maintain a fit lifestyle. I thought it was hinted that his nephew Raban was following the same route in his life?
Also, my reading of the Baron’s personality wasn’t that he was a vile person because he was a homosexual, but because he was a rapist and pedophile.
It has been a while since I read the Dune books, but I remember Herbert stating specifically that the Baron became Jessica’s father just because the Bene Gesserit took advantage of him “sampling different pleasures in his youth” –or words to that effect (though I distinctly remember his use of the term “sampling” or “sampled”). Which makes clear that, for Herbert, the Baron heterosexual escapades were youthful peccadillos at best, and that he strongly prefers males. Yes, he is also a rapist, and he likes underage boys, but he also explicitly enjoys Alia’s consensual trysts with the handsome priest in Children of Dune.
So I have always seen the Baron as yet another archetypal Gay Villain, considering that no other character in those books ever sleeps with anyone of the same sex. And Ian McNeice plays him as a flamboyant, flamboyantly dressed queen. Kenneth McMillan’s take is more “leather,” though he does fawn over “lovely Feyd” coming out of a melange shower. (The movie leaves open the question whether anything happened between uncle and nephew, but Feyd is shown as definitely enjoying himself while witnessing the Baron’s rape and murder of a girlish boy slave.)
The Baron isn’t in total control of Alia, he has to take what she is willing to give him. She put on weight and became promiscuous to please him but apparently pedophilia was a step to far for her.
I do not think being fat or queer are essential parts of the Baron. They were short hand ways to convey certain traits that are core parts of the Baron. Symbols change meaning over time. Being fat was considered a moral failing associated with greed and gluttony. However things have shifted. In the first world the wealthy are now more likely to be fit and lean. The poor working long hours in an office setting are more likely to be overweight. Maintaining the fat = moral failure symbolism plays into class warfare narratives in a harmful way. It muddles the theme that is actually trying to be emphasized in the book. Likewise with the Baron’s queerness. The Baron raping and killing slave boys is drawing parallels with the hedonism of Roman emperors. However queer = pedophile is a very real piece of hate propaganda that is espoused by anti-LGBTQ groups today. Again this muddles the theme trying to be brought forth in the story. The filmmaker’s don’t have the advantage of their movie coming out in the time when Dune was first published. They also don’t get to spend as much time building the world or context. The novels have the space to show us how the characters are shaped by their society and that their society is full of old harmful prejudices. The movie won’t be able to go as in depth. They are going to have to use a different set of tools to present the themes of the characters. The Baron is a sadistic hedonist. He is an authoritarian. He believes if he has the power and desire to do something that is all the justification needed. Those without power in his view deserve their fate. He oppresses his people, abuses his servants, keeps slaves, overeats while they starve etc. There are plenty of visual symbols that fit within Dune that can convey those themes without the Baron being fat or putting his sexual abuse of boys into the movie. The Baron is also a narcissist. He talks too much and when he is talking too much his motivation is to show he is the best at everything he does. Most of the scenes involving the Baron involve this aspect of his personality. Most of his scenes are about him gloating and it not playing out the way he imagined. After my most recent re-read of Dune I personally think the Baron’s narcissism is his number 1 personality trait. Everything else is an extension from that. Getting away from the problematic old symbolism and focusing on that trait would make a better movie and a better villain
(MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK SERIES AHEAD)
First of all, the Baron isn’t evil because he’s queer. He’s evil because he (among other things) gets off on raping and murdering little boys. Those two things are definitely not equivalent.
I will say that I have thought about the lack of queer people in Dune. It’s obvious if you’re aware of the societal issue at all. Although, I think your claim that EVERY character in Dune could be queer needs at least three qualifications. Jessica must love Leto I, as she disobeys the Bene Gesserit order to bear only daughters because she ‘so loves the Duke’. The product of this union being Paul Atreides himself. It is very clearly stated that Paul is only ever in love with Chani, and it’s important to the plot later in the series that they procreate. Also important to the future plot: Duncan Idaho must be sexually attracted to women, for he (many copies of him independently) produces ‘The 1000 sons of Duncan Idaho’ without being under coercion. Now, I understand the simple fix; everyone can be bisexual. But for the sake of screen time and plot clarity, it really doesn’t make sense for, let’s say, Paul to have a boyfriend on Caladan at the beginning of the movie.
I have read all the Dune books multiple times since my mid 30’s (I’m 70 now) and never once did I even think about the Baron being queer. His “love” for boys was just that to me. I don’t think I am naive, It was part of who he was, an odious, awful man! Gay, straight or otherwise is not an issue. The fact that he was a horrible person was enough for me.
I’m looking forward to this new Dune movie.
@54 – I had a different read on the situation in God Emperor. Moneo from my perspective was implying that it was ok to tolerate same sex relationships in adolescents because most of them grow out of it and the ones that don’t can be trained out of it. It seemed more in line with Leto II’s strategy of allowing small rebellions to make his people more susceptible to his larger scale control. Duncan Idaho acts as our surrogate in the story. The things he doesn’t approve of seem to be sign posts for us about the ways Leto II’s empire is wrong. So less negative than the Baron’s coding but still negative.
With respect to Frank Herbert’s works with Dune, he actually does create a different atmosphere in the fourth book, God Emperor of Dune. Herbert writes about an all FEMALE army under the Atreides government. In his reasoning, men are biologically predisposed to domination and superiority–asserted sexually as rape of women or weaker men. We know it today as “toxic masculinity”. With the all woman army, he posits that an army of females would have a different mindset. They’re encouraged into intimacy with other women, as well as rigorous training by their more powerful leaders–(spoiler alert) Duncan Idaho, Fremen hybrids, even Emperor Leto III himself.
It’s not much of a defense for the first book, but Herbert actually did address it.
All those comments above talking about how the Fremen are based off a nomadic, tribal, Arab-esque culture and it would therefore be wrong to have any Fremen exhibit non-heteronormativity are tragically misguided about the ubiquitous nature of same-sex relationships in both human society overall and Arab cultures more specifically. To correct the latter misconception, I’d recommend reading “Before Homosexuality in the Arab-Islamic World, 1500-1800” by Khaled El-Rouayheb.
Like many here. I never identified the baron as gay. He was a rapist and a glutton. But I was found his sexual deviance to be more about power and excrss ther than sexual preference. Baron Harkonnen wanted to be a young attractive man but he didn’t have the discipline. So instead he used his power to dominate people who had what he wanted.
Evil. Disgusting. Gross. Sinful. Gluttonous. Rapist. Pedophile.
Never Gay.
I never read the Baron Harkonnen as his size and sexuality as being evil…I saw them as a need to be excessive, what could be considered true evil and copious unfettered consumption, whether it’s food, people or sex. He also had an excess of entitlement and always read the suspensors as just being used to support his size and not allowing him to fly around like in both Lynch’s and the miniseries portrayed.
The Baron is obese because he can afford beyond measure to be. In ancient times being fat was a symbol of vast wealth and access to fatty foods. It was a way of showing off your power without being In Your Face about it.
I despised the Lynch version of the Baron. In the book the Baron is smart, scheming, conniving, and ruled worlds because he was good at what he was doing and his largeness was a symbol of all that. I NEVER saw the Baron as evil. He was brutal, manipulative, lying, conniving, and ruthless the way politicians, dictators, and world leaders ARE. He was NEVER a festering, rambling, buffoon. In the book, when he spoke, it was to Get Things Done or to teach his offspring a lesson. He possessed great power, and those *with* that much power will do what they can to get more of it, and hang on to what they have at all costs. Herbert was modeling after modern dictators, some of which had a great deal of charisma, even while they were lying to, and killing people…
I always read the Baron as completely pansexual with maybe a slight preference for young boys ‘at that time’ because he was slightly obsessed with the Atriedes, and Paul was a thing he could never actually possess, no matter how much power he thought he had…Becuase that which is Most Forbidden, is often the Most Desired.
With the kind of power he could wield over many star systems, why wouldn’t he sample ALL the things his power could afford without the fear of repercussion? ANY sort of scandal, especially in a society that permits kanly – open aggression including dueling to the death – could be made to just…go away…
I would LOVE to see the Baron played in a strong, powerful, smart, charismatic, pansexual, almost sympathetic sort of way. Villains that can communicate smartly and honestly to people’s darker side are ALWAYS substantially more compelling.
I think you’ve got the wrong character from Repo: The Genetic Opera in there…I think you were thinking of Rotti Largo, Pavi’s father. Pavi’s the vain, flamboyant one with the obsession with stealing women’s faces.
I always saw the baron’s gross image as an indicator of extreme debauchery, and excessive consumption, intended to display his ability to do so. He indulges in excesses of everything, and wants the universe to know that fact. Thus, despite living in a society where technology is easily advanced enough to make him thin, no matter what he indulges in, he instead uses suspensor lifts to support his bulk as a display of raw power. He can indulge in whatever vice he likes, you see, because he has the power to do so…and nothing, no one, can stop him, is what that display intends to say. It also acts as a mask to his actual insecurity and paranoia. I do think that focusing on the gender of his preferred victims, rather than their age and relative weakness is not necessarily what was intended, though.
That people are more disgusted by the fact that he’s fat, than the fact that he loves exerting power over those weaker than him says more about our society, than the one in the book!
It wasn’t the Baron’s sexuality that made him a villain in the book or the 1984 film, it was his proclivity toward rape and murder. If he were straight and raped and murdered women, I wonder how your article would read then, but because he’s gay, that is somehow taboo? Gay people can’t be villains? Ever? It wasn’t a trope back then to make being gay a character flaw of a villain. It just happens to be one aspect of the baron’s personality. I saw the movie in 1984, and read the book a couple of years after that. What struck me was his cruelty, his misuse of other human beings. That he was fat, well yes, obesity was used as a visual code for gluttony and hedonism.
I don’t think we should change the story for some peoples’ sensitivity toward these topics, especially when the subject matter doesn’t really reflect the accusations made against it. We also, should not change novels or plays as they were written, in effect erasing history to suit our current tastes. Shakespeare would be edited into pablum if we did that. Rather, if you don’t like how something is written in the case of the classics like Dune, don’t read it, don’t watch movie adaptations of the work. Or, maybe we just shouldn’t remake the movie at all, if it’s so offensive to so many, free speech be damned.
Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Finn is considered racist by certain people who fail to see how he was calling out the southern culture of his era. Yet people want to ban his books.
Dune is what it is, and is a product of its era. It’s best to leave it that way.
Baron Vladimir Harkonnen – fat, black eyes, deep voice.
“…he rubbed his protruding lips with a beringed hand, stared down at Feyd-Rautha through fat-enfolded eyes.” From chapter 1 of Dune.
“ ‘You are awake,’ rumbled a basso voice…The fat cheeks were two cherubic mounds beneath spider-black eyes.” From Jessica’s POV, chapter 1 of Dune.
“Leto watched the fat hands, the glittering jewels on baby-fat hands” Leto describing Baron Harkonnen, from chapter 1 of Dune.
“…turning his baby-fat face toward Feyd-Rautha…” From chapter 2 of Dune.
I think the original writer’s perspective should be the guiding principle of any later work. There have been many creative works that were true adaptations of earlier classics – but West Side Story didn’t trade on Shakespeare’s renown just to grab better box office. If you want to make “your” version – call it something else. Don’t just rip off the author’s title and leave the work behind. I’ve gotten disgusted with “remake city.” Have the respect to stay true to the AUTHOR’S vision.
If you intend to create, on film, a Masterwork (and I do consider Dune a Masterwork – I read it the year it was first published) – stick to the book! When I review the number of “adaptations” that have done great disservice to the original authors – I shudder.
Oh Emily, yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES!
I love the story of Dune, but to say that the Baron’s queerness being an indicator of his moral vacancy irks me would be the understatement of a century. Not that it’s an irk unique to Dune, and I’m so thankful that such things are fast becoming artefacts of an outmoded mentality.
Yes. Just by throwing a few other queers in the mix you can fix that, and I would love to see queer Fremen (and Gurney, obvs.), but you know what else it’ll do. It’ll reopen the ‘gay agenda’ complaint too. To be honest, I’m so bored of having it, I’m not sure I’d be sorry if they do keep the Baron as the only queer. Maybe a simpler answer (despite how loathe I’d be to see it in fruition) would be just drop all of the queerness in its entirety.
I wish I knew why all the poor, aggrieved straights I know seem to think that it’s my ear should be chewed off over their irritation at ‘changes to [their] story’ though.
You have to remember that the stereotypes surrounding obesity were very different when the book was written- back then fat people were typically portrayed as nice, jolly and friendly. The laughing fat man was just the stereotype back then. While one of the aims of Herbert seems to be to highlight the Barons wanton excesses, you also have to remember that he was subverting an existing stereotype by making the “laughing fat man” into a vile antagonist. He wasn’t the only person to do this either. Times have moved on and it’s less common to have fat villains again, i can’t think of any off the top of my head from recent times, so i say go with portraying the character as he was originally intended to be portrayed.