Following the Game of Thrones series finale, George R.R. Martin has weighed in on David Benioff and D.B. Weiss’ ending to his epic fantasy series. On his Not A Blog, the author and TV writer/producer waxed nostalgic on his first meeting with HBO and the showrunners over a decade ago, thanking the hundreds of people involved in bringing his vision from the page to the screen.
Reflecting on the bittersweet feeling of this life-changing journey wrapping up, he made the point that “last night was an ending, but it was also a beginning” for all involved.
Part of that beginning? Finishing A Song of Ice and Fire.
In addition to developing nearly a dozen different projects for television and film (adapting both his own work, including Wild Cards, and potentially others, such as Nnedi Okorafor’s Who Fears Death), Martin reaffirmed that he is committed to completing the book series, finishing the long-awaited novel The Winds of Winter and its follow-up, A Dream of Spring.
While he refrained from committing to specific dates, he did address one of the biggest questions to come out of the finale: Did Game of Thrones carry out the exact ending that Martin had planned? Will the books go in a different direction than the TV series?
Martin:
Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.
The author went on to clarify that at minimum the books will continue to follow characters and plot threads that never even made it to the show. (Lady Stoneheart being one of the biggest.) In addition, the ending in the books will feel fundamentally different for one straightforward reason:
I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…
(Unicorns? Does Martin just mean unique elements in the forthcoming books or is that a reference to a house or…ah, yeah unicorns don’t factor in to A Song of Ice and Fire. Just unique elements, then!)
Martin concludes:
Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?
How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.
Photo: Gage Skidmore (CC BY-SA 2.0)
Unicorns are reportedly on the Isle of Skagos, the likely location of Rickon, Osha and Shaggy Dog (per a Davos chapter in ADWD).
Pretty sure the ‘unicorns’ are on Skagos, but they’re probably of a nature to the killer butterflies on Naath (poor Grey Worm…).
I have to admit I laughed at “How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.”. Over the years I’ve gotten a bit better at accomodating in my brain several different versions of a story as there are so many new adaptations, sequels, remakes, etc. I didn’t hate the last season of the show as much as others seem to have, but I also look forward to seeing what GRRM has to say.
Kind of stoked he mentioned Penny and her pig, but somehow I doubt she’s getting a happy ending.
We may eventually get The Winds of Winter, but I would bet any amount of money that we never see A Dream of Spring. The man is 70 years old and hasn’t even started ADoS, let alone finished TWoW. I just don’t see it ever happening.
I just make up my own endings. How about this; Rickon marries Shireen and they rule the seven kingdoms together.
When Tyrion said ask me again in 10 years, I said Dream of Spring release date confirmed.
Penny. I am happy to never see her again. And who were Skahaz Shavepate and Ser Garlan the Gallant anyways? I can’t even remember. Although the past two GoT seasons could have been less rushed and storylines better developed, I am glad for the ending. After ADwD I am sure, I won’t pick up another one of these books unless the online communities convince me that they are back at the quality of the first three – if they are ever written.
If I recall correctly Skahaz was one of Dani’s collaborators and servants in Meereen and Ser Garlan is a son of Mace Tyrell.
In a long looong time we will know it
Ah.. I completely forgot that there were three Tyrell brothers. I remember now. Thanks. As to Skahaz.. I’ll have to consult the wiki. :)
And this is all I have to say in the matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCR0ep31-6U
@1 and 2: Yep, I also suspect the “unicorns” line hinted at a visit to Skagos. Unicorns and cannibals and Shaggydog, yay! Possibly , that is. Maybe we’ll learn if its human inhabitants are actually cannibals, as legend has it. Not that they’re especially unlikely to be — cannibalism is wildly proliferating in this story by now — but legends can lie.
I most badly want to see Victarion get roasted and eaten by a dragon. Preferably after he calls some Dothraki “weak” for riding horses, but we can’t have everything. And I want my Aeron to be freed, and I want something horrible to happen to Euron. It could happen. Good things don’t often happen to good people in this story, but bad things happen to good and bad alike. (Puttig it over-simply, as I know ASOIAF generally breaks up the dichotomy of “good” and “bad” as character descriptions).
Penny and her pig. Sigh. I am still devastated to my core regarding what (apparently) happened to Crunch. I don’t think I’ll ever get over it.
The likelyhood of Martin finnishing the Series in two Books seems exeedingly low to me. Martin is a Writer very much like Robert Jordan and the latter would never have been able to finnish his series in the three volumes it took Sanderson.
@13 I think he could have done it in three books. RJ had been hoping it would be only one more book so three is about right.
Folks, you can imagine any ending you want. He’ll never finish the books and its all you’ll have.
@14 Noblehunter
Consider Rand‘s trip to Ebou Dar. Sanderson handled that in a short Flashback. Jordan would never have done that. That alone would have added half a novel
“Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?”
In the book she had three, one by each husband. Though the first two were pretty much abandoned to be raised by others. In the movie she only had one daughter with her third husband. Which is GRRM’s point there.
How about this? I write it.
I can’t suspend my disbelief that far.
I’m surprised at how much I still care about this.
Let’s face it, not much is going to change. Bran, Jon and Dany’s endings should remain basically the same. But I learned to value the journey more than the destination. Especially after these last few seasons.
I guess I just really want to know how he’ll get there.
@@@@@ 18: necessary_eagle:
“How about this? I write it.
I can’t suspend my disbelief that far.”
*Ken Jeong’s voice* “Zing! NAILED it.”
“I’ll write it. You read it.”
Nah. I’m not your b*****.
@@@@@ 21 kenneth: Well said. He may not be our B, but neither are we his.
@6. bird: ” I won’t pick up another one of these books unless the online communities convince me that they are back at the quality of the first three – if they are ever written.”
I’d say it’s more about style, not quality. After I accepted that the fourth book wouldn’t feature most of the main characters and storylines, I settled in and enjoyed it. Some of Brienne’s chapters are the most thematically deep of the entire series. We see the devastation of war thru her eyes.
Sure, the first three books were the most adaptable to TV. Apparently D&D’s original aim was to get to the Red Wedding, thinking audiences would lose their minds. My GF didn’t read the books and I remember thinking the same thing, “She’s going to freak when they get to this part.” Some of the ire directed at the showrunners is justified: “We’re in a hurry to go off and do Star Wars. Bye.” But adapting an unfinished book series is also a big problem. When you’re left with a plot outline, you get mostly plot.
@23 Sunspear You are right. It’s not quality, but style. And the style changed quite a lot. There are so many fillers, storylines that I just don’t get. It’s dragging. There are still characters I love. Even less important ones. I love the world, the cultures. But for my taste, there are too many Misdar mo Razdaks (I know this name doesn’t exist) that start a storyline that really doesn’t matter. I guess I just don’t enjoy series that grow too long (Wheel of Time is a good example).
@24 – I can’t explain why (early morning and still drinking my coffee?), but I find your Misdar mo Razdak reference incredibly funny, maybe because I could totally see somebody 100% believing that this IS a character in the book and pulling their leg about it. “Oh yeah, he’s the guy on the Mereen merchant council, don’t you remember that part?”. Perhaps because I cut my teeth on things like Wheel of Time, I am totally fine with the sprawling stories with a bajillion characters, but I can see why others can be frustrated.
If I were GRRM and reading this, I would totally make this a character :)
Wheel of Time may have had a bajillion characters, but they all MATTERED, while A Dance With Dragons spent a third of the book following characters that had literally 0 impact on the story.
@26
Not really. There is a complete novel in WoT that could easily be skipped without missing much.
@26 – Say what? How did they all matter? What about all the characters and story-lines that went nowhere? Just off the top of my head: Sevanna & Shaido story-line, Rebel Sitter mystery, traveling circus, most of the Seanchen characters, Aes Sedai and the Black Ajah hunt, etc.
I haven’t read Dance since it came out in 2011. Was there any purpose to the Quentyn Martell arc that I may have missed? I remember feeling very frustrated with how that played out.
Also, re: Wheel of Time
I am reading those for the first time right now. I just finished Path of Daggers. I’m just curious as to what book someone said was skippable. I have no intention of skipping any. Like I said. Just curious.
@29: It’s going to pit Dorne against Dany when she arrives, likely leading to Dorne’s downfall because Doran took too long sitting on his plans rather than acting on them and making moves (hence the over-ripe blood oranges falling and splattering in that scene in the Water Gardens from Feast).
It also of course thwarts the typical hero arc and demonstrates what really ought to happen more often to impetuous would-be heroes. Having a couple of these arcs thwarted makes the reader more worried about the real hero arcs concluding successfully (Jon, for instance).
@29
It’s Crossroads of Twighlight. A book that is, more or less, without plot.
@25Lisamarie I know about the importance of morning coffee :D
@generaldiscussion I finished WoT and I’m glad I did so, but I almost stopped reading at book 8, or 9, or 10 (can’t remember which). And I never re-read those books. Same with ADwD. I read it once. But I still care about ASoIaF. IF I should ever pick up Winds of Winter, I will re-read books 1-3. As for the others… Thank the old gods and the new that good summaries exist online.
Quentin was stupid going for the dragon like that. It is not Dany’s fault. And I also didn’t really understand why a POV character needed to be introduced for that storyline. I vaguely remember they had other things going on, but I also forgot them as a lot of other things in this whole Mereneese mambo jumbo.
I’m looking for an epic fantasy fix. Anyone here reading Tad Williams’ new Osten Ard books? Actually thinking of starting with the one just released and working backward if I like it. It has a synopsis at the start, which may be enough of a jump in.
Guess I could go back to Fire & Blood, which I didn’t finish.
@33: My go-to when looking for a new author or series is anthologies. This one is a good sampler: Epic Legends of Fantasy edited by John Joseph Adams
@33 — I did read the first new Osten Ard book (and there was also a shorter interstitial work bridging the old & new trilogies). It’s fairly deliberately paced, just FYI, but I did enjoy it, and it’s set a couple of generations after the original trilogy so it probably works well enough as a standalone.
Myself, I just started reading Daniel Abraham’s The Dragon’s Path, first in his Dagger & Coin series, and I’m liking it quite a bit. (Daniel Abraham is half of “James S.A. Corey”, author of the Expanse books. His Expanse coauthor, Ty Frank, is also George R.R. Martin’s assistant.)
I’m considering Daniel Abraham too. Since he’s part of GRR Martin’s writers’ group, supposedly they had a session(s?) about what the ultimate fantasy would look like (has to have dragons) and Abraham put those suggestions into the books. I also love The Expanse, and liked the latest volume (better than the preceding). Can’t wait to see what happens with Amos.
Kah-thurak @@@@@ 31 –
WoT fans after reading books 7-9: “What a slog…no way can the next book be any slower.”
RJ: “I’ll take that bet.” *evil grin*
WoT fans after reading CoT: “Wait…this book goes *backwards*!?!?!”
@37. Sonofthunder Then Brandon Sanderson came and saved us all :)
Path of Daggers and Crossroads of Twilight both are the first halves of Winters heart and Knife of Dreams respectively. Not unlike Feat for Crows/Winds of winter. (You could make the argument that Shadow Rising and Lord of Chaos or the first halves of Fires of heaven and Crown of Swords too. They at least stand better on their own though)
People still think Martin will finish this story.
Adorable.
@40 – This.
@35: He was his assistant years ago. Hasn’t been for quite some time. (But Book 8’s dedication is to GRRM, which is nice.)
@40 trike I don’t expect GRRM to finish his epic (especially as I don’t think 2 books will be sufficient). Doesn’t mean it never gets finished.
@43 – I already finished it in my mind. Darkstar is the new king.
Abraham is awesome, both Dagger and Coin and Long Price Quartet (and the Expanse, of course, as well). He’s also done good work in the Wild Cards universe.
Note re finishing the books, George made the following post in connection with his service as an honoree at the 2020 World Con in New Zealand next summer: “But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine.”
@46 – that just sounds like a REALLY great way to end up with a lifelong vacation on New Zealand :)
@44 – OMG I forgot about Darkstar. LOL.
King Darkstar. He who is of the night.
I wish I could forget HIM.
@42 — Thanks! I didn’t realize the assistant role had ended.
“I am of the night’. Darkstar deserves to die for that corny line alone! So not impressed!!
Yes. I think he left when Leviathan Wakes was published – in 2011, the same year as WoW and then shortly followed by co-authoring eight !! Expanse books and six !! novellas and short stories plus several unrelated works.
WAIT WAIT WAIT – that means Darkstar is the true Night King! I solved it!
@John
The problem here is that Winters Heart and Knife of Dreams are relativly slow, long winded, books in their own right. For example the whole outing to Far Madding in Winters Heart is completely pointless for the main plot and was probably only included to showcase the city.
@35 hoopmanjh
I really liked the first to novels of The Dagger & The Coin as well. Unfortunately the second half of the series, espeacially the ending did not work as well for me.
The two most logically places to go to when looking for truly epic fantasy would be the Malazan Book of the Fallen and the Storm Light Archives… The MBotF is even complete.
@40 Trike
I am not even sure I care anymore.
@54 bird
For me, the Malazan Book of the Fallen is the most ambitious Epic Fantasy series ever created and it features my two favourite fantasy novels. However: It is also more complicated to read than most other series and it does not focus as strongly on characters as ASoIaF or WoT. I can not tell you if you will like it, but I think it is worth the risk to try at least the first two Books.
While I have not read the Sword of Truth, from what I have heard about it, the Malazan Book of the Fallen should be vastly superior to it.
@53 – Disagree strongly with your views re Knife of Dreams, which is a top 5 RJ book for me and I don’t view it as slow or long winded. Much to the contrary. Winter’s Heart – no disagreements there. OK book with great final scene that mostly redeems it.
Also, I agree that Malazan is worth a shot. It is confusing, as you are thrown into the deep end and kept there through the entire series. (It is helpful to note that the Malazan world is big and has several continents, and the books jump back and forth from one far flung place to another, which adds to the confusion.) The first four in particular are really strong, and then it became more of a mixed bag as the complexities of the plot and mythos started to get to me. But…still worth reading to the end of the series.
@56
Knife of Dreams IS much better than Winter’s Heart and at least in the better half of the WoT books. But it is still a relativly slow paced novel. So having an even slower novel as build up for it is something you will probably only find in the WoT ;-)
@54: Malazan has much to reccomend it, but it is a looong series with a lot of rape and brutality. For (currently) shorter epic fantasy without sexual violence (though still with some brutality; that’s ubiquitous in the genre), I recommend Stormlight Archive or the little-known but IMO awesomesauce Crimson Empire Trilogy by Alex Marshall. Though as a general warning, the latter involves a ton of grossness featuring live invertebrates. So does Malazan, occasionally, now that I think of it.
@49 & 51: Don’t forget producing the television series and writing some of the episodes…
As far as completed epic fantasy series, I hold Winds of the Forelands by David B. Coe and The Kingdoms of Thorn & Bone by Greg Keyes in very high regard. They’re certainly lesser known than others mentioned here, but no less worthy of your time.
I’m looking forward to reading the books. Will we get the end of Tyrion’s joke then?
@27 But, but, but, Elaine took a **bath**. That was really important. ;-)
When Martin kicks, all that will be found on his laptop will be a log of 500,000 Minesweeper game scores.
I’ll wager a dollar to a doughnut that given his increasingly dilatory writing schedule he won’t live to finish it.