On Saturday in Hall H at Comic-Con International in San Diego, Marvel Studios had their panel. Amazingly, up until now, we’ve had no idea what the next batch of Marvel movies were going to be. We knew some details—that Black Widow was finally happening, that there would probably be an Eternals movie, that Taika Waititi was directing another Thor film—but nothing concrete. When I saw Spider-Man: Far from Home in the theater there were no trailers for any superhero films at all, which is unusual, to say the least.
This rather impressive security on the future of the most popular film series in the history of the world is finally no longer necessary, as Kevin Feige announced not just the next batch of movies, but also what will be coming on the small screen on the forthcoming Disney+ service.
Here’s Tor.com’s full run-down of the full set of announcements Feige made at San Diego on Saturday, and here are some of my thoughts on these announcements…
(Warning: THERE BE SPOILERS FOR AVENGERS: ENDGAME AND SPIDER-MAN: FAR FROM HOME BELOW HERE! DON’T SAY I DIDN’T WARN YOU!)
1. There are only two movies in 2020. This is the first time since Spider-Man was added to the MCU that there have been as few as two Marvel movies in a calendar year—it last happened in 2016 with Captain America: Civil War and Doctor Strange. Since then, there have been three per year. But in 2020, all we’ve got are Black Widow and Eternals. In 2021, that goes up to three again, with Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, and Thor: Love & Thunder, so the three-movies-a-year pattern will be restored. But I guess it makes sense after three huge films in 2019, one of which was the frankly exhausting Avengers: Endgame, that they are slowing down a bit for next year…
2. The Black Widow film is too little too late. One of the most appalling things in Endgame was killing off Natasha Romanoff. From the moment the character was introduced as a bad-ass S.H.I.E.L.D. agent in Iron Man 2 in 2010, and particularly after her impressive turns in Avengers and Captain America: The Winter Soldier, there has been a hue and cry and clamor for this great character to get her own starring vehicle instead of constantly supporting men in their films. Endgame set her up as the leader of the post-snap Avengers, showing the character fully coming into her own as a hero after all the red in her ledger.
And then, shortly after announcing that she’s finally, a goddamn decade later, getting her own starring vehicle, and they go and kill her off, thus cutting off all positive buzz about this overdue movie at the knees.
(Mind you, I can think of about fourteen ways to bring her back from the dead after Endgame, and if Black Widow gives us that, it will cover a multitude of sins. But those sins have, sadly, already been committed.)
3. Between Shang Chi and the fourth Thor film, we’re not forgetting the MCU’s roots. The Shang Chi movie will see the Master of Kung Fu go up against the Ten Rings, the shadowy organization that Obadiah Stane was working with waaaay back in 2008’s Iron Man, the movie that started this whole megillah. And while we no longer have Tony Stark or Steve Rogers, and we’re unlikely to get another Bruce Banner movie as long as Universal continues to control the Hulk’s film rights, a new Thor movie combined with a Black Widow movie to keep two of the founding Avengers in the spotlight.
Also I really hope that, unlike the last time Marvel did one of their martial arts heroes, they have people involved in the film who are actually familiar with martial arts…
4. THE JANE FOSTER THOR WILL COME TO THE MCU! One of the niftiest stories in Marvel’s recent comics, Jane Foster becoming Thor, is being brought to the cinematic version. This would be way more fun if Asgard was still intact, but Thor: Ragnarok already proved to us fans of Marvel’s Thor that we can’t have nice things. Still, we’d better get Kat Dennings back as her sidekick…
5. Why is The Falcon and the Winter Soldier still being called that when Sam Wilson is Captain America now? Seriously, calling it that when you first announced it is necessary due to not wanting to spoil Endgame, but now we know that the Falcon is the new Cap. So why isn’t this being called Captain America and the Winter Soldier? Particularly now, it’s important to acknowledge that the symbol of the U.S. is currently an African American.
6. No Captain Marvel or Black Panther sequel in the next two years? The former is less of an issue, given that Carol Danvers’s first starring vehicle was just a few months ago, but Black Panther came out in 2018, was a massive hit on multiple levels, and now the earliest we’ll see his next film is 2022, four years later. That’s—a choice, I guess. (To be fair, this might be dictated by the availability of Ryan Coogler and the various necessary cast members, all of whom are in high demand right now…) And it’ll be at least three years before we get more Carol, but hey, at least we’ll see a grown-up Monica Rambeau in WandaVision!
7. Between the Doctor Strange sequel and What If…? they’re really pushing the many-universes theory. After getting two separate lectures on time-travel theory involving Bruce Banner in Endgame, and after that movie went and created at least a couple of alternate timelines, and after Spider-Man: Far from Home teased the whole notion with Mysterio pretending to be from another Earth, now we’re getting Doctor Strange dealing with the “multiverse of madness” and a series dedicated to alternate timelines.
If nothing else, this is a great way to introduce the X-Men. Bringing Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four into the MCU was never going to be an issue, but the X-Men have a whole lot more baggage, as it deals with the next evolutionary step of humanity. The MCU’s history is too well-established at this point to suddenly have mutants be part of it—but with an alternate timeline, maybe? It could work…
8. Yay Fantastic Four in development! Marvel’s flagship heroes have been botched so badly onscreen on three separate occasions, and this is finally their chance to do it right. Here’s a hint: DON’T DO THE ORIGIN. One of the biggest problems with a lot of Marvel’s early origins is that they’re tied to the time they were written. The Hulk was the result of an above-ground bomb test, which stopped being legal a year after he was created. Iron Man was created in the midst of conflict in Southeast Asia. And the Fantastic Four were part of the 1960s space race. Every attempt to update their origin on screen has failed, especially since so many elements of it are kinda dumb.
So just skip it. We don’t need it, and it’s the least interesting part of the FF’s story. Just have them be a family of adventurers who happen to have super-powers.
(Also just cast Michael Chiklis as Ben Grimm. Nobody has done it better, and I suspect nobody ever will. He was born to play the role. Just do it. We’ve already had J.K. Simmons brought over to set the precedent…..)
9. Yay fewer white guys! I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again: I’m a cis het white guy and I’m, frankly, done with cis het white guys. Now Marvel’s superheroes were mostly created in the early 1960s, so the white maleness is to be expected from their flagship folks, but now that we’re a decade in to the films, and two of those white guys are gone, we can move forward with a bit more diversity. And, to be fair, Marvel has always at least tried for that. (I don’t think it’s remotely coincidental that the X-Men of the mid-1970s and 1980s were the first team to seriously embrace diversity in its membership and were also by far the most popular comic books on the planet, not to mention the trails blazed by Black Panther and Luke Cage.)
Just in this announcement alone, we’ve got a Black Widow movie, a Shang-Chi movie, a Thor movie that has promised prominent roles for both Jane Foster-as-Thor and also for Valkyrie (who is established as “looking for her queen,” so a woman of color who’s also not heteronormative), a magnificently varied Eternals cast (Salma Hayek! Lauren Ridloff! Brian Tyree Henry! Ma Dong-Seok!), shows starring the new black Cap (even though it still says “The Falcon” in the title) and a female Hawkeye, reassuring all and sundry that Captain Marvel and Black Panther will eventually have sequels, and the icing on the cake, bringing Blade into the MCU at last, played by the magnificent Mahershala Ali!
10. The titles are pulpy as heck, and I love it! Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness, and Thor: Love & Thunder have got to be three of the pulpiest titles in the history of creation, and I’m just giddy with glee. We’re ten years in, these movies are pretty well established, so there’s no need to play it safe with boring subtitles like The First Avenger or The Dark World. Why not have fun with goofy-ass titles that wouldn’t have been out of place on a 1947 magazine rack?
11. That Loki logo is the ugliest thing in the history of things. Seriously, that looks like it was put together by a college student playing with Photoshop for the first time. Ugh.
What thoughts do you have regarding Phase 4? Feel free to share in the comments!
Keith R.A. DeCandido has been writing about adaptations of superheroes for this site for ages now, including the weekly “4-Color to 35-Millimeter: The Great Superhero Movie Rewatch,” as well as reviews of many of Marvel’s Netflix series, the 1966 Batman, and lots more, as well as articles on Star Trek, Doctor Who, Stargate, etc. On the fiction side, he has three novels out this year: Alien: Isolation, Mermaid Precinct, and A Furnace Sealed.
The big glaring omission on this list is the lack of a Spider-Man sequel to follow up on that mid-credits scene.
Most of this doesn’t seem to lead to another big team-up storyline, Eternals doesn’t seem like it would crossover with Shang-Chi, for example. But maybe that’s OK. They’ve done the big universe-shattering crossover. Maybe it’s time for something different.
I worry that they have a few too many second and third-tier characters. That worked for the Guardians movie, but might not long-term.
I’m already seeing misogynist crap from the haters over the Thor casing, most of whom didn’t (or can’t?) read past the headline to see that Hemsworth is also still involved.
grenadier: as with the Panther and Marvel sequels, it’s more a question of “when” than “if.” And Spidey’s latest movie was only two minutes ago. I’m not concerned. :)
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@grenadier What first-tier characters would you expect/prefer to see? Knowing that FF are in development and bringing X-Men into the MCU carries a number of “issues,” I can’t think of very many who are available and not already utilized. Adam Warlock will eventually show up, but other than that…?
It helps to define what a first-tier character is. To my mind, if the character is immediately recognizable by many people outside of comics fandom, that’s first-tier. Namor was first-tier years ago, when he was a regular FF guest-shot, but not so much now. Nova never was, despite being a legitimate heavy hitter. I would kill for a Machine Man movie, but it’s hard for anyone who wasn’t into comics 20-odd years ago to even know who that is.
Weren’t there still two “untitled” entries on the 2020-2021 schedule? If so, couldn’t these be spots for Black Panther 2, Guardians of the Galaxy 3, or Captain Marvel 2 (and they just not want us to know about it yet)?
David: GOTG3 won’t be that soon because James Gunn is still working on The Suicide Squad for Warner.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
“And the Fantastic Four were part of the 1960s space race. Every attempt to update their origin on screen has failed, especially since so many elements of it are kinda dumb.”
We have private sector billionaires working to send people into space and somehow Reed Richards building his own spaceship is dated?
Simu Liu (Shang-Chi) is a martial artist. Tony Leung (the Mandarin) is not, but he’s a star of Hong Kong Cinema, and their action movies. He’s done a number of action movies directed by Wong Kar Wai, including The Grandmaster, where he portrayed Ip Man. He did a deep dive into Wu Shu for it, and though he had a stunt double, there are plenty of scenes where a double couldn’t be used. And he did very well.
I’m happy that we don’t have another non-martial artist playing a ‘master of martial arts’. Finn Jones is pretty to look at, and the second season was better (hoodies hide stunt doubles!!), but it showed that he wasn’t a martial artist.
I strongly agree with #3’s comment about martial arts and #8’s comment about no FF origin story.
I’m not sure how I feel about #5: Sam Wilson called The Falcon vs Captain America. If he owned it as Falcon, why should he have to “upgrade” his title to Steve Rogers’ old one? Let the Falcon be a great character who is also awesome enough to use Captain America’s shield and take on his responsibilities. Or is he going to set aside his wings and fight like Steve Rogers fought? It seems belittling to his role as the Falcon to suggest he’s not as cool if he’s not called Captain America.
Also, just from a mass marketing standpoint, I think most people (and probably mostly kids) who saw “Captain America” in the title would still assume it had Chris Evans’ version of the character in the movie. I think it’s okay to have a movie that transitioned Wilson into the Captain America role, rather than a few lines of dialogue at the end of a previous movie, before the average moviegoer associates the title with the character.
Yeah, but there are also TV shows that will tie directly in with the movies, and starring actors from the films.
I do hope one of the credits scene in her film is her coming back to life.
Simu Liu seems to have no martial arts experience, but I’ll trust the film’s fight coordinator and all those people to train him. There’s time.
Agreed, but you’re using the old logo, they now have a new one where Falcon is in Captain America colors.
Feige did say that they had no time to talk about stuff like CM and BP sequels, but they’re planned.
I’d love for them to be from the 60s, and had to spend some time in another dimension where time flowed differently.
Yes! Also, they confirmed that Valkyrie will have a female love interest.
Me too, they’re beautiful!
Ditto.
I think that the Falcon/Cap thing is just good branding – you don’t hand over the title until the film/series goes through the story arc that earns it. I think there’s even a good potential tie-in mid first series where the dramatic turn occurs and then the episode ends with a new logo and title.
He’s got the shield, but story-wise he still needs to step up and embody the ideal on his own merit as a character.
I know the Loki logo is meant to represent chaos, but that is pure “kitchen sink” design, as my graphic design teacher would scathingly label it. Yuk.
So, as you might expect from my user icon, I am pretty thrilled by Lauren Ridloff’s casting as Makkari. They took a white hearing male character and cast a Deaf woman of color – sweet! But this has resulted in headlines like the one ComicBook.com used: “The Eternals to Feature Marvel’s First Deaf Superhero” – and that’s completely incorrect. Aside from Hawkeye, who isn’t really portrayed as deaf, there’s Echo. She first appeared in 1999, so Marvel has had a deaf character for 20 years – and she was even Ronin before Hawkeye took on that name! I have been hoping Echo would end up on the big screen pretty much the entire time the MCU has been around…I hope we will get to see her someday.
Until then, I’m looking forward to seeing Makkari!
Isn’t there some issue with the Spider-Man rights reverting back to Sony if FFH doesn’t make a billion dollars or something? Do we have any info on where that stands right now?
A couple of notes –
#5 – While they technically own it, Captain America: the Winter Soldier is already a movie title with a separate entity ID. I can think of several reasons they wouldn’t want a similar name to that. Also worth noting that in the comics, Falcon doesn’t stay Cap for that long (at least in current run). Maybe they have plans down the line…
#6 – Rumor on Black Panther delay was both a matter of availability and the fact its expected to have a large production/filming locale range which complicates that. Supposedly of the non-ensemble Marvels, Black Panther shot by far in the most locations. Doctor Strange may start filming at the same time, but so much of their work is post production they don’t need to keep relocating for filming so they can prepare to screen earlier.
@13 $970 million and counting per box office mojo. If the billion dollar deal thing is true, it is as inevitable as Thanos.
The Falcon doesn’t have Cap’s abilities or superpowers. He’s just a regular human with a sweet flying rig. Doesn’t make sense if he’s not the Falcon. Though, Black Widow and Hawkeye also don’t have powers, and somehow can hang with the superheroes (cough cough). Still, I think he needs to keep the wings along with the shield.
@16 Hawkeye and Black widow both trained had training that was presumably next level over anything Sam trained for. Outside of his specialized training with he wings Sam is more of a general soldier to their special forces. (at least that’s my read of the movies backstory. They could easily hand wave that away if they wanted to.)
RE: Falcon and the Winter soldier, I would have been just as happy had they called it The Adventures of Sam and Bucky.
“bringing Blade into the MCU at last, played by the magnificent Mahershala Ali!“
How did Cottonmouth become a half-vampire?
so many ideas come from this![.](//s04.flagcounter.com/mini/Jkzv/bg_FFFFFF/txt_DEDEDE/border_FFFFFF/flags_0/" width="1"/>)
@12 – MeredithP: Yeah, I saw that and thought you’d be excited.
@14 – Jeff Linder: Hmm, the similarity to the Winter Soldier movie title makes sense.
@19 – Athreeren: He ate something that was past its expiry date.
1. I agree we don’t need an FF origin story … but the commenter is right: a privately funded space mission is both timely and avoids the ridiculousness of how two guys, a woman and her kid brother break into a high security launch site.
2. More Blade is always welcome; I only wish he was being spun out of an ongoing Tomb of Dracula series on Disney+.
I wonder if the Eternals will lead to next big Marvel event? The original comic had characters racing around in preparation for the Celestials arrival to pronounce The Fourth Judgment about whether the Human Race deserves to exist, and that would set up a different conflict dynamic for a (theoretical) Avengers movie. Less “Let’s punch these Celestials out” and more a Star Trek-style justification for the continued survival of humanity.
One of the Eternals’ antagonists, was Druig, who initially appeared as a KGB colonel in the comic, and with an Asian actor cast as the movie’s antagonist Gilgamesh, perhaps Marvel is building up an ages-old conspiracy with connections to Black Widow and Shang-Chi? Just a thought.
I’m mildly interested at this point in Black Widow and Shang-Chi but mainly if they serve as more down–to-earth action movies. It’s been a fascinating ride to see the Marvel universe become a mainstream phenomenon for much the same reasons I was a Marvel fan as a kid, but I’m also aware how exhausting the “interconnectedness” of everything can be as that is why I eventually moved on, and with EndGame as an appropriate jumping off point, (I haven’t felt any urge to see Far From Home) so I am going to take a wait and see about these new movies. They’re going to have to be REALLY impressive to go see any of these.
So yes, I’m afraid I”ve come down with the dreaded “superhero fatigue”
Obviously, Guardians 3 wasn’t going to be a part of this announcement, given Gunn’s current commitment to Suicide Squad, but I do wonder how will this next Thor feature will address his standing with the Guardians. Endgame left open the possibility of doing shared adventures between the God of Thunder and Star Lord’s crew.
My interest right now is with Shang Chi and Strange 3. I am from Singapore so i might not have access to Disney +.
Truth be told i’ve Emily Blunt to be a better pick for Natasha than ScarJo..
Speaking as someone finding representation in Black Panther I am absolutely fine with a 4 year wait. Iron Man 2 came two years after Iron Man and was a fart. They took their time with Winter Soldier and it remains one of the best MCU movies.
Also, The First Avenger is pretty pulpy.
@1 With Thor in space, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain Marvel and the Fantastic Four I could easily imagine phase 4/5 building toward a team up Annihilation Wave movie.
I’d find it entertaining for people to try calling Sam “Cap” and him refusing the name. After all, Steve and he were friends first and foremost, and I think he’d find some value in preserving his friend’s legacy even as he carries the shield that was bequeathed to him.
Great summary, but I think the author is missing the point of the Loki logo. I reckon the different fonts for each of the individual letters are meant to symbolise where he’ll be going and what he’ll be doing.
For example, the “O” appears to be Old English font right? Do we get Dark Ages / Medieval Loki? Masquerading as a wizard? Loki as Merlin?
The “L” looks to be your generic, gritty, Sci-Fi Action Movie title font. I have no idea about the “K” and the “I”, but they look pretty unique.
Anyone else got any ideas?
I think a good way to bring mutants into the MCU was baked into the story of Endgame. Rocket observed the energy wave that enveloped the planet when Thanos snapped his fingers. There were two more snaps from Banner and Stark 5 years later. Wanda, Pietro, Vision and Carol Danvers all got their powers from the energies of Infinity Stones. Who knows how many x-genes could have been activated with the energies that enveloped the world? Perhaps there had been a very small amount of mutants in the world and only a select few such as Xavier (who, of course, can sense mutants telepathically) were aware of them. With the influx of mutants post-snap, Xavier must take measures to prepare not only mutants but humans as well for the world that is to come.
While I like the notion of a privately funded space flight for the Fantastic Four, I think perhaps using the already-established quantum realm would be a good idea. Especially since Peyton Reed of Ant-Man fame once pitched a Fantastic Four movie 2 Marvel and has expressed interest in the property in the time since. Perhaps this is why there was no announcement of a third Ant-Man film. Peyton Reed is switching gears to the Fantastic Four.
Black Widow’s post credit scene: The soul stone being taken has the effect of freeing its guardian who is about to leave Voromir when a spaceship shows up with Steven son of Joseph on board. A fight ensues which the guardian is winning but Steven manages to return the Soul Stone to its original place. As the guardian is choking the life out of Steven some red headed woman kicks his head in, makes a witty remark and we continue with the credits.
@2 Oh I agree, it’s only a matter of time. With the number of films announced though, that time is likely at least 3 years off, unless they add Spidey3 in the middle down the line at some point.
@3 I wasn’t saying that there are any other first-tiers available.Just that they’ve used them all, so now they have to work harder to make people aware of these other characters. I agree that a good definition for “first tier” is that they are in the public awareness already. Marvel’s basically used all of those, or they are in need of redevelopment (FF and X-Men). So now they need to raise awareness on who these “new” heroes are, even though some of them have been around for decades, just out of the mainstream’s eye.
I thought in the comics Jane Foster became Thor because the Odinson was no longer “worthy”. So when did/does he become unworthy? If anything he would have been unworthy during the five years after Thanos’ first death but wasn’t he redeemed by the end of Endgame? I also think it is MCU canon, per Odin himself in Ragnarok, that the Odinson’s powers as the God of Thunder have nothing to do with Mjolnir. Maybe we get two God’s of Thunder at the same time?
I’m kinda hoping the Black Widow movie is a prequel. Comics are so notorious for bringing people back from the dead that I would like to see somebody stay dead for once. I understand why her death hit so many people so hard, but…that’s life. Not everybody gets closure. Maybe she never gets to wash all the old blood off her hands. It’s not like they fridged her like they did with Vanessa in Deadpool. It was her choice to sacrifice herself.
I like to think that it’s still called “The Falcon and The Winter Soldier” is because a major thread of the series will be Sam struggling with having the mantle of Captain America given to him (ie he doesn’t quite feel worthy) and will fully take on the name/costume by the end of the series.
@33 – It’s already been confirmed that it’s a prequel. That was long suspected.
@33, the Black Widow movie takes place shortly after Captain America: Winter Soldier.
The new slate sounds good to me, except for the part about having to sign up for another new streaming service to watch some of it.
@32 That was the comics story.
But remember….Thor already has a weapon. He doesn’t quite need Mjolnir quite as much as the Earth 616 Thor did. Besides, he’s off in space.
But if the fragments of Mjolnir start calling for someone worthy….particularly if it’s in response to…someone…needing a queen, well, now…
The private-spaceflight origin for the FF is fine, but please, please do not make the movie about their origin for the fourth damn time. That has never worked, because no matter what the FF’s origin is tied to, it’s the least interesting part of their story. What makes the FF distinctive is what they become later — the established first family of superhero-adventurers, a world-famous think tank and philanthropic organization, and so on. That’s why the least weak FF movie to date was Rise of the Silver Surfer, the only one that wasn’t about their origin.
Basically the FF are in the comics what Stark Industries has been in the MCU. So now that niche is open for them to fill. Say their origin happened sometime in the 5-year gap, and they rose to prominence while Tony was on his extended sabbatical. Just introduce them as already a big deal. Introduce them the same way Wakanda was introduced, as an established entity. Superhero movies don’t have to be origin stories. Marvel has shown that over and over by now.
Sure, this could keep going after the big finale. Or this could be another AfterMASH. :)
Time will tell.
@24 – Eduardo: Gunn confirmed on Twitter that the new Thor movie will take place before GOTG3.
@36 – caddan: I thought they said it’s after Civil War.
There is the minor detail that Hela destroyed Mjolnir, though. So presumably we need a different mechanism for Jane to take on the Thor mantle in the MCU.
I’m with Keith — never mind the excuses, Sam Wilson is Captain America and should be called that. It’s a statement we need in this day and age more than ever.
@42/Keith Rose: Well, Thor’s powers didn’t originally come from Mjolnir, they came from him being Thor. Odin just suppressed his powers until he proved he was worthy, and enchanted Mjolnir to be the key to unlocking them. Thor still had his powers after Mjolnir was destroyed. So the hammer logically wouldn’t be a requirement for endowing or transferring Asgardian powers. It was just one option for doing so.
Agreed, it is clear that wielding Mjolnir doesn’t make one Thor in the MCU. (If it did, Cap would be Thor.) But that means that the MCU needs a different explanation for what it means for somebody other than the Odinson to be Thor. Which mostly just means there is plenty of room for whatever story Love and Thunder wants to tell, and we shouldn’t necessarily expect it to track the Mighty Thor/Unworthy Thor story from the comics.
@44 but that’s the thing, even the comics laid out that simply wielding the hammer doesn’t make you Thor. Cap and just a *bunch* of other characters have all lifted the hammer over the years without becoming Thor. They needed Jane to be Thor in the comics because that’s the direction they wanted to go, and they came up with the easiest – if not the most historically accurate – way to do it.
So, I agree. They won’t have Mjolnir be the transference device in the movie because everyone in the theater, every one of them, will be thinking about Cap using the hammer in Endgame without turning into Thor. They’ll have to have another way.
Besides, MCU movies aren’t adaptations of comics stories. They use, at best, a title and some general themes.
Quoth danielmclark: “Besides, MCU movies aren’t adaptations of comics stories.”
Many of them absolutely are adaptations of comics stories. Iron Man is an adaptation of IM’s first appearance in Tales of Suspense and of the 1980s arc featuring Obadiah Stane. The First Avenger is an adaptation of Cap’s first appearance in 1940 (with bits from other Cap comics that retold or expanded his origin). Avengers is an adaptation of Avengers #1 and the first story arc in The Ultimates. Iron Man 3 is an adaptation of the Extremis storyline from the early 2000s. Ragnarok is an adaptation of the “Planet Hulk” storyline, as well as the journey to Hel story Walt Simonson did in the 1980s w”here Skurge died.
The Winter Soldier, Civil War, Captain Marvel, Age of Ultron, Infinity War, The Dark World, Far from Home, Doctor Strange, all adapted specific stories, while Iron Man 2, Black Panther, both Ant-Man movies, Thor, Homecoming, all cherry picked elements from several comics. It is most assuredly not “at best, a title and some general themes.”
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@46/krad: Still, while daniel overstated the point, I think he basically just meant to say that the movies aren’t obligated to be exact copies of the comics’ plots; even the closer adaptations you mention still built their own versions of the stories and made changes freely.
Christopher: Which is true of pretty much every adaptation of something from another medium. Try reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? back to back with watching Blade Runner……
—-Keith R.A. DeCandido
@48/krad: Yeah, but it’s amazing how many people out there don’t get that. They assume that the purpose of an adaptation is to exactly recreate the original story beat for beat, even though the vast majority of adaptations throughout history have done nothing of the sort. (Although they’re probably thinking of some prominent adaptations that did hew pretty closely to the sources, like the Harry Potter and Hunger Games movies.)
Ugh on Natalie Portman being Thor. She was terrible in the first two movies. They could have replaced her with a wooden post and it would have been more entertaining (I thought she was terrible in the Star Wars movies too). Why oh why can’t they get another actress for the part? They could make it work! They’ve switched out actors before.
@50/Kate: By all accounts, Portman is a fine actress when she has something substantive to play, which wasn’t so much the case in the first two Thors or the Star Wars prequels. By analogy, I thought Scarlett Johansson was the weakest member of the cast in Iron Man 2 when she had little to do but look sexy, but once The Avengers gave her an actual character to play, she did a terrific job.
@48 Or try reading Alan Nourse’s Blade Runner back to back with the movie that used its title to tell another story.
I don’t think it’s all that difficult to bring the X-Men into the MCU, 3.5 billion people were just disassembled and then reassembled atom-by-atom by the infinity stones. It’s not all that hard to imagine that process might have side-effects for some of them.
While I agree that origin stories are overplayed and there’s no good reason to do yet another FF origin story, I did want to say that (1) now that we have a precedent of Marvel “period pieces” like First Avenger and Captain Marvel and (2) time travel stories (Endgame, obviously), it does seem to me that we could have classic origin stories for some characters.
I mean, I know we can’t do it now because the horse is so long gone from the barn, but I feel like it’s a missed opportunity that there wasn’t an Incredible Hulk movie set in the 1960s as a Cold War spy thriller/horror film where weapons physicist Banner saves Rick Jones and gets cursed with monsterism and immortality. (And then the first Avengers could have had a throwaway line about how he’s been hiding out in South America since the 1970s, not aging a day thanks to all the gamma he absorbed.) The opportunity’s been missed because the Hulk got brought into the franchise when the MCU was still pretty timid about what they thought they could get away with, but it could’ve been a lot of fun.
If Marvel decided to do yet another origin for the Fantastic Four, there’s no reason they couldn’t be ’60s space explorers who got knocked out of our dimension into some kind of timey-wimey nonsense for a few decades. You could even give them a fab ’60s or glittery ’70s adventure for their first outing. The MCU can do that now (not saying they should for the FF, just that they can). I hope they don’t forget that.
“Yay fewer white guys!”
Celebrating increased diversity: Good.
Celebrating increased diversity while also throwing shade: Bad.
If you don’t understand why then you may not be as “woke” as you believe.
Thoughts:
Is Shang-Chi going to be more powerful in the MCU than the comics, allowing him to be a more central character? Is he going to get his hands on some of them ten rings?
I love the fact that they will be giving Jane Foster Mjolnir, but why spoil what could’ve been the best surprise twist ever in the movie?
As someone previously said, having a movie Captain America: The Winter Soldier prevents you from calling the series Captain America and the Winter Soldier – it’s just too similar.
I think the Fantastic Four is going on a rocket ride to the negative zone!
@54: That gap is probably the result of Univeral holding distribution rights. But it is unfortunate that the MCU hasn’t done more with the Hulk. Personally, I don’t see a need for another go at the origin story, but I really would have been interested in a stand-alone Hulk story between Infinity Wars and Endgame, dealing with how Banner and Hulk settle their differences. There are a lot of missing pieces to that story.
As for the FF, I don’t have a strong opinion, but I think the retro-launch option is probably best used sparingly. Continuity is hard enough to manage in one direction.
@54/eric: “it does seem to me that we could have classic origin stories for some characters.”
Some characters, sure. Just not the FF. Nobody’s ever made a good movie about the FF’s origin story, because it’s not their beginning that’s interesting, it’s what they become later on. Heck, even Fantastic Four #1 started with them as an established team and told their origin in flashback.
@55/Christopher: “Fewer white guys!” is not “throwing shade,” especially when a white guy is saying it. We aren’t putting ourselves down by having the basic maturity and fairness to say “Okay, we’ve hogged the playground long enough, let’s let everyone else have their turn.”
@56/EGW: Is power the only thing that lets someone be a central character in the MCU? If Black Widow can get her own movie without needing superpowers, I don’t see why Shang-Chi shouldn’t be able to do the same.
As for Mjolnir, remember, it doesn’t exist in the MCU anymore. Thor “borrowed” it from the past, but put it back at the end, so it’s gone now.
“As someone previously said, having a movie Captain America: The Winter Soldier prevents you from calling the series Captain America and the Winter Soldier – it’s just too similar.”
Then call it Captain America and Bucky or something. It sends a highly problematical message to say that the black guy has to give up his rightful title just so the white guy can keep his.
Looking forward to most of this. I won’t be subscribing to Disney+ so I’m going to miss out there. Too damn many subscriptions already.
While I, too, appreciate the focal shift away from cishet white males, I do wish that Feige would pull a Shazam and give us Hercules. I think it could be funny as hell.
Whenever they do get around to GOTG3, please for the love of Bob include Nova and Warlock. We need to finish the Warlock angle. I think Nova could be something like the last surviving member of the Corp after Thanos got done trashing Xandar. What was left of the capital after Ronan deserves to be looked at, as well.
@55: Lol, “Yay” = “celebrating”, and “fewer white guys” literally is “increased diversity”. But please, do let everyone know how they should be properly celebrating diversity, we’re dying to know.
@60: No it’s a negative comment. A positive diversity message would be “Yay, more diversity in the MCU”… throwing in the “less white guys” is denying one group to make room for another. While that may be the end results the negative connotations of the wording, will insult people. Allowing and supporting that type of speak is why negative groups continue to perpetuate. You don’t start a conversation and hope to change hearts and minds by telling someone you’re glad there are less of them than you.
@61/DontCare: “You don’t start a conversation and hope to change hearts and minds by telling someone you’re glad there are less of them than you.”
Whaaaaa?? Again — Keith is a white guy. He’s saying he’s glad his own group is not so unfairly dominant anymore. And speaking as another white guy, I agree with him a hundred percent. We have been far too dominant, and I’m sick of us always getting the lead roles.
You don’t insult your own group by saying it’s gotten an unfair share and needs to step back. That’s not called being insulting, it’s called being a grownup and having a basic sense of fairness.
@ChristopherLBennett – Sorry you don’t get to tell me how I should react to a statement. I agree the diversity is good, but a grown up (your words) would realize that others perceive words and their power differently than you. A grown up knows that regardless of how they may feel about certain words.. they should work on their wording in such a way to be inclusive instead of exclusive. But that’s just how a grown up would act.
I’m not sick of seeing white guys get roles but I am glad that the world is changing and that we’re getting a chance to see a more diverse world view.
— Sorry I’m not trying to argue (seriously I’m not).
@28: That was actually what I thought too. It’s still a bit of a faecal design, but I got that the show will have him jumping through different ‘ages’ and those letters look like they could be intended to be a reference to it. Yeah, the ‘O’ is obviously medieval-ish inspired, the ‘L’? You might be right. The ‘K’ looks a little late 20’s or early 30’s maybe? The ‘I’ looks either Asgardian or “High Fantasy” to me.
@58: I would say I agree with you almost on every point there, however, whilst I agree that Sam definitely needs to take on the Captain America title, I can also understand that the character may be uncomfortable doing so. He just lost a very dear friend after all, and it would be natural to feel uncomfortable and perhaps even disingenuous to just pick it up straight away. I’m with Perene (@18) above whom suggested “The Adventures of Sam and Bucky” as a title.
@55 + @61: It’s also not necessarily anything to do with being ‘woke’.
To expand (please bear with me a moment), as a gay man I find I’m often faced with a variety of direct desires for my non existence, from all sorts of avenues and across hundreds of platforms. I’m both Cis and White, practically the ‘default’, but this makes it hard for me to sympathise with said ‘default’ when they are given even the mildest taste of the kind of treatment that they (a generalisation, yes, and I know it’s not fair to generalise, but welcome to my world), give those that aren’t.
This does not mean I disagree with the need for a Hearts and Minds war, but lets also not forget that it is a war. A war in which trans women and immigrants are currently taking much the brunt of casualties and abuse. Not only is the US using concentration camps to dehumanise illegal immigrants (and legal immigrants that get caught in the wrong place and time), and trans women are being murdered, 29 in the US in just the first 5 months of 2019!
https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people#2019
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/07/02/epidemic-of-violence-against-trans-community
Also, I’m goddamn bored and fatigued by all the ‘white saviour’ and ‘default hero’ that the market has been saturated with in the last 70-odd years. I’m ready for the liberation and jubilation that comes with seeing something new.
I didn’t need to be a woman to be overjoyed at seeing Captain Marvel get to hold the stage, if only for a moment, and I didn’t need to be POC to be profoundly effected by Black Panther. I may not have been as overjoyed or effected by these films as a woman or a POC viewer, but those films both enriched my existence through their own, just by giving me, and us something many are barely even aware we, as a global society, were lacking or being denied.
@64/Berthulf: Hear, hear. If your worst fear is having your ego bruised, then you’re privileged. It’s like the saying — “Men fear women will laugh at them, women fear men will kill them.” Privilege is worrying more about your own hurt feelings than everyone else’s lives and rights.
More than once, I’ve encountered black people who mistook my shyness around strangers for racism, but I’ve long since outgrown getting offended by that perception, because I understand their everyday experience has surely given them good reason to expect racism from white people, and they’ve no doubt endured difficulties far worse than my hurt pride, so it would be selfish to think they owed me anything. If I want them to think better of me, I need to earn that through my actions.
“Also, I’m goddamn bored and fatigued by all the ‘white saviour’ and ‘default hero’ that the market has been saturated with in the last 70-odd years. I’m ready for the liberation and jubilation that comes with seeing something new.”
As far back as the ’70s, when I was still a kid, I’d look at all these shows like Star Trek or Barney Miller where you had a multiethnic supporting cast but the lead character was always a white man, and even then, it seemed unfair to me — why can’t every group get their turn at being the main character? Although I think maybe that wasn’t so much out of a sense of social justice as simply out of my strong preference for balance and symmetry.
Feel free to disagree with the opinions stated in the article and comments above, but be aware of our community guidelines–be civil and constructive in your replies, and don’t make criticisms or disagreements personal in tone.
I’m happy that t seems we’re finally going to get a true Mandarin, and not that joke of character called Killian in Iron Man 3. Some people liked that twist, but not I (and I put my motives in the superhero rewatch review of Iron Man 3).
I’m sad we’re never going to get an Iron man x Mandarin fight. Mandarin realizing he basically created the revival of superheroes in the MCU would be nice, as in “I can’t believe I fucked up this much as a villain”.
Yay, fewer white guys! (no irony)
@53 – Jade Phoenix: It an even be retroactive, there is a time stone… ;)
@68 – Ryamano: Same as Loki in the comics and in the MCU, who is responsible for bringing the Avengers together.
I read a lot of comics back in the day and I’ve never heard of Shang-Chi, which is why I’m the most excited for that. Guardians of the Galaxy was a 3rd tier book and it was a great movie (and a good sequel) so hopefully they find the same magic.
This lineup is the most excited I’ve been for the MCU. It’s been hit-or-miss for me but generally I’ve liked the newer entries, each following phase having more movies that I enjoy. Probably most excited for Shang-Chi; I’ve been waiting for an Asian American superhero epic for a long time.
Even with being well-aware of the infinite variety of opinion, I will NEVER understand how anyone didn’t fall in complete love with Jane during the first Thor. I am beyond excited about Natalie Portman returning to the MCU in such a large role in the Phase 4 films : )
I bookmarked this months ago while I was still trying to avoid spoilers in the wake of the movies coming out and just now remembered to come back to it :)
This all looks really fun. I’m excited that Waititi is back onboard and this is actually the first I’d heard about Portman returning, which is great – and I’m really interested to see what she can do with a new story/direction.
Agreed about the timing of the Black Widow movie though.