After buggering off at the end of 2015’s Avengers: Age of Ultron, Thor had been conspicuously absent from the next appearance of the Avengers as a team, 2016’s Captain America: Civil War (which we’ll cover next week). This was, in fact, a minor plot point, as Secretary Ross pointed out the absence of both Thor and the Hulk.
Thor finally showed up in the other 2016 release, Doctor Strange, and that was to set up his third movie, released in 2017.
Despite the mediocre word of mouth surrounding Thor: The Dark World, not to mention people ranging from the director, Alan Taylor (who did not enjoy how the film was edited), to two of the actors, Christopher Eccleston (who disliked the heavy makeup) and Natalie Portman (who was upset that Patty Jenkins was dismissed from directing the film), bad-mouthing the film, a third film was nonetheless listed as part of Phase 3 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe when it was announced in 2014. It had a very provocative subtitle to anyone who has followed Norse myth (or read Thor comics): Ragnarok, the end of all that is from Norse mythology.
Taika Waititi, an independent film director with a very distinctive style, was brought in, having apparently learned their lesson from the first film, where Kenneth Branagh provided an appropriately Shakespearean gravitas to the proceedings. Waititi brought his own brand of lunacy to the film.
Several comics were mined for the storyline, most notably two aspects of Walt Simonson’s definitive run on Thor in the 1980s—his own Ragnarok story that covered his first year or so on the title, as well as the subsequent story that had Thor leading an expedition to Hela’s realm to rescue innocent human souls—and the “Planet Hulk” storyline written by Greg Pak in Incredible Hulk in the mid-2000s.
Back from Doctor Strange are Chris Hemsworth as Thor and Benedict Cumberbatch as Doctor Strange. Back from Age of Ultron are Mark Ruffalo as Bruce Banner and the Hulk, and Idris Elba as Heimdall (in addition, archive footage of Scarlett Johansson as Natasha Romanoff from AoU is used). Back from The Dark World are Tom Hiddleston as Loki, Sir Anthony Hopkins as Odin, Tadanobu Asano as Hogun, Ray Stevenson as Volstagg, and Zachary Levi as Fandral. Introduced in this film are Cate Blanchett as Hela (inexplicably changed to Thor and Loki’s sister), Tessa Thompson as the Valkyrie (very loosely based on a comics character from The Defenders), Karl Urban as Skurge (based on the longtime villain the Executioner), Jeff Goldblum as the Grandmaster (another Elder of the Universe from the comics like the Collector), Waititi as Korg, Clancy Brown as the voice of Surtur, and Sam Neill, Luke Hemsworth (Chris’s brother), and Matt Damon as actors portraying, respectively, Odin, Thor, and Loki in a play. Jaimie Alexander was originally intended to return as Sif, but the shooting schedule for her TV series Blindspot did not allow for her to do so (which means she’s still available to come back at some point).
Hemsworth, Cumberbatch, Ruffalo, Elba, and Hiddleston will next be seen in Avengers: Infinity War. Thompson and Waititi will next be seen in Avengers: Endgame.
“I hate this prophecy”
Thor: Ragnarok
Written by Eric Pearson and Craig Kyle & Christopher L. Yost
Directed by Taika Waititi
Produced by Kevin Feige
Original release date: November 3, 2017
Thor is trapped in a cage, providing exposition to the audience under the guise of having a one-sided conversation with the skeleton in the cage. We find out that he has spent the last two years looking for the other four infinity stones, but not found any. He is eventually freed by his jailer, Surtur, who plans to bring about Ragnarok, the end of the world on Asgard. Thor says that Odin will stop him, but Surtur says that Odin is no longer in Asgard.
Surtur very generously exposits that all Surtur has to do is place his crown into the eternal flame, and he will be able to destroy Asgard. At that point, Thor breaks out of his chains, summons Mjolnir to his hand, and fights Surtur, ripping the crown from his head. Surtur’s minions attack him, and so Thor asks Heimdall to bring him back to Asgard.
Unfortunately, Heimdall no longer guards the Bifrost. A lowly Asgardian named Skurge is now in charge, Heimdall having been charged with treason—but not captured, as it’s hard to capture someone who can see and hear everything. Skurge eventually stops flirting with two women to do his job and get Thor home, and then Thor flies to the palace.
As we saw at the end of The Dark World, Loki is posing as Odin. He has commissioned a play about Loki’s death in that movie, which is overwritten and overacted like whoa. Thor calls out Loki, throwing his hammer far and putting “Odin” between himself and Mjolnir’s flight path back, at which point Loki shows his true face for the first time in a while.
Loki didn’t kill Odin, he just sent him to an old folks’ home on Earth. But when they arrive in New York, they find that the place has been demolished. Doctor Strange sends Loki into a portal and summons Thor to his sanctum. Strange has been in touch with Odin, but couldn’t tell Thor where he was because Thor hadn’t been on Earth since Odin’s arrival. However, Strange is willing to send the pair of them to Norway, where Odin is, provided they then return to Asgard. Thor agrees, and only then does he free Loki, who has been falling for half an hour before Strange let him out. Loki wishes to get revenge for this indignity, but Strange sends them to Norway before he can.
Odin is standing alone in a field. His time has come, and he’s about to die—which means that their sister will be unleashed. Apparently, Odin had another child before Thor and Loki, whom he was forced to exile and imprison, but when Odin dies, Hela, the goddess of death, will be free. After a final moment between father and sons, he discorporates.
A moment later, Hela shows up. She’s immensely powerful, as proven when Thor throws Mjolnir at her and she catches it and destroys it with one hand. Loki calls for Skurge to take them to Asgard, but she follows them across the Bifrost and attacks them both, sending them careening out of the Bifrost and into space.
Hela arrives at the Bifrost, which is now being run by Volstagg and Fandral, with Skurge reduced to sweeping the floor. Hela kills the warriors instantly, and recruits Skurge. She declares herself the rightful queen of Asgard—removing the paintings in the palace that show only Odin, Thor, Sif, and the Warriors Three fighting in battle and showing what’s under them: Odin and Hela conquering dozens of worlds.
She faces off against the Einherjar, led by Hogun, and kills them all when they refuse to bend their knee to her. Her plan is to use the Bifrost to conquer as many worlds as she can—but the sword that powers it has gone missing. Heimdall has snuck into the Bifrost and stolen it, using it to defend himself as he gathers refugees in a place where Hela cannot find them.
For his part, Thor finds himself landing on the world of Sakaar, a world proximate to many jump portals. He is initially captured by scavengers who view him as food—Thor takes out several of them before they hit him with an electronic net—and then he’s taken from them by a slave trader whose designation is Scrapper 142, who has a powerful ship that enables her to take out the scavengers, despite her being exceedingly drunk.
She brings him to the Grandmaster, an ancient being who runs the Contest of Champions on Sakaar, one of the biggest gladiatorial attractions in the galaxy. Thor puts up a good fight, but he is unable to break out of his restraints. The Grandmaster pays her handsomely for “the Lord of Thunder.” Thor sees Loki, who apparently arrived weeks before—time moves strangely on Sakaar—and has inveigled himself into the Grandmaster’s good graces. But Loki denies knowing Thor to the Grandmaster.
Later, Loki sends a holographic construct to visit Thor in prison. Thor is livid at Loki, as his exiling Odin led to his death, which led to Hela returning and taking over Asgard. Thor makes friends with two other prisoners, Korg and Miek. Korg is a gentle, but strong rock creature who usually does the undercard fights. Thor, though is being pitted against the Grandmaster’s champion, against whom no one has been victorious.
Thor is given a makeover, his hair cut by a high-tech barber who looks just like Stan Lee, and is given a new set of armor.
He’s put in the arena, where his foe turns out to be the Hulk. Thor is thrilled to see him (“He’s a friend from work!”); Loki, not so much (“I have to get off this planet,” he mutters furtively while looking more frightened than Loki has ever looked). Thor doesn’t wish to fight his teammate, but the Hulk very much wants to.
Thor puts up a better fight than anyone has against the Hulk. At one point, he tries the “sun’s going down” trick that Natasha Romanoff used in Age of Ultron to calm the Hulk down so he can change back to Bruce Banner, but it doesn’t work. (At one point, Hulk slams Thor repeatedly back and forth on the ground, and Loki cries out, “Yes! That’s what it feels like!”)
And then Thor finds himself able to channel lightning through his fingertips and zaps the Hulk badly.
Before his champion can be defeated, Grandmaster activates the control on Thor’s neck that 142 put there, rendering him unconscious.
This allows Hulk to win, still, but Thor survives the encounter, and is given better quarters, shared with the Hulk. The two Avengers catch up, though Hulk insists that Thor only likes Banner, not Hulk. Thor unconvincingly denies this.
Hulk reveals that he came to Sakaar on a quinjet, which he points to the wreckage of. Thor views that quinjet as their ticket back to Asgard.
It turns out that 142 is an Asgardian, specifically one of the Valkyrior. Most of the Valkyries were massacred by Hela before Odin imprisoned her. The Valkyrie has no interest in returning to Asgard and the politics there, preferring to live on Sakaar and drink herself into insensitivity. The news of Odin’s death only gives her temporary pause—but it’s enough for Thor to snatch the control for his implant. He is able to escape the quarters via the window and tries to activate the quinjet. However, Hulk follows him to the quinjet, trashing it just by entering it, though Thor is able to use footage of Romanoff speaking to him to calm him enough to transform back to Banner.
Banner’s first question is if they saved Sokovia or not. He’s been the Hulk for two years straight. Banner is half-convinced that if he becomes the Hulk again, he’ll never be able to change back to Banner. Thor tries to console him, but Banner—who is very freaked out at being on another planet—refuses to accept it, thinking that Thor likes the Hulk, not Banner. Thor’s denial of this is equally unconvincing, given that his plan is to take a team back to Asgard to fight Hela.
Thor contacts Heimdall, who informs him of the situation on Asgard. Heimdall says the largest portal near Sakaar will take them to Asgard.
Grandmaster is livid at losing both his champion and that champion’s strongest challenger. He charges the Valkyrie and Loki to find them. However, Valkyrie turns on Loki and captures him, then finds Thor and Banner (not realizing that Banner is the erstwhile champion) and agrees to go back to Asgard and stick it to Hela. Valkyrie knows a route that will take several months, but Thor points at the largest portal and says they will go through that—which is apparently named the Devil’s Anus, likely by a twelve-year-old. But Valkyrie’s ship can’t handle that portal—however, Loki offers access codes to the Grandmaster’s ships in exchange for his freedom.
Valkyrie gives Korg and Miek weapons and their freedom from the implants. With the prisoners distracting the Grandmaster’s forces, Thor and Loki sneak into the port and steal a ship. Well, Thor does—Loki proves himself duplicitous as ever, and plans to turn Thor in to the Grandmaster for a reward. However, Thor—who did grow up with Loki—sees the treachery coming and snuck an implant onto Loki’s back and turns it on, tossing away the controller, leaving Loki to twitch on the deck.
Thor steals the Grandmaster’s yacht, picking up Valkyrie and Banner, though the former attacks the pursuit ships chasing them with her mighty sword Dragonfang. Thor decides to help her out, even though she doesn’t need it, because it’s his movie, leaving Banner to awkwardly figure out how to fly the ship.
The three of them go through the portal to confront Hela. However, she and Skurge are moving in on Heimdall’s position, as an Asgardian gave away Heimdall’s location rather than see an innocent executed by Skurge. (For his part, Skurge doesn’t look thrilled with being ordered to behead an innocent person.) However, Heimdall, naturally, saw them coming and gets the refugees to the rainbow bridge.
The confrontation happens there. Hulk takes on Fenris Wolf, the massive canine enforcer of Hela’s. (Banner can’t just stand by and let innocent people be killed, so he risks changing back into the big guy.) Thor, Valkyrie, and Heimdall, as well as many of the refugees, take on Hela’s forces, which consist of her former soldiers brought back to life.
Korg and Miek show up with Loki, the former having rescued the latter during their revolution. They arrive in a gigunda ship, to which Heimdall takes the refugees. Belatedly realizing he’s fighting on the wrong side, Skurge turns on Hela, sacrificing his life so that they can escape.
Thor is being beaten very badly by Hela, who cuts out his right eye, so he now resembles his father. Hela reminds Thor that she’s the goddess of death. “What are you the god of, again?”
Suddenly, seemingly on the astral plane, Thor and Odin have a conversation where father reminds son that he’s the god of thunder, not the god of hammers. Mjolnir was just to help him control it. Why he needed to be told this now when he already knew he could do this from the fight in the arena with the Hulk is left as an exercise for the viewer.
Hela’s power comes directly from Asgard itself, so Thor hits on the notion of destroying her power source. He has Loki put Surtur’s helm in the eternal flame, which summons Surtur to Asgard, so he can destroy it. (On the way, Loki sees the Tesseract and swipes it. This will be important in Avengers: Infinity War.)
The refugee ship leaves Asgard. Once Surtur and Hela go at it, Hulk—who has finally defeated Fenris—grabs Thor and Valkyrie and leaps with them up to the ship.
They sail off into the night. Thor decides to set course for Earth. Loki is concerned that Earth may not welcome him, but it becomes moot when the ship is confronted by a much larger ship belonging to Thanos…
Meanwhile, on Sakaar, Grandmaster tries to make the best of the revolution that has overthrown him as he can.
“I make grave mistakes all the time”
I both love and hate this movie in equal measure.
As an action-adventure movie, it’s excellent. As a part of the MCU, it’s good. As a Hulk movie, it’s fantastic.
As a Thor movie, it makes me want to scream and shout and rip the DVD from the player and jump up and down on it several dozen times.
I hate this as a Thor movie, deeply and truly.
One of the great things about Marvel’s version of the character of Thor is that it is able to make use of the magnificent tapestry of Norse mythology. One of the annoying things about the MCU version of Thor is its lack of willingness to seriously tap into that. And then in this movie, they trash it all together.
A common thread in many of the twentieth-century superhero movie adaptations is an inability to take the source material seriously, indeed to treat the material with contempt. This sometimes still results in good work—e.g., Kenneth Johnson’s adaptation of the Hulk for television in the late 1970s. But that contempt can work against you.
Back in the rewatch of Thor I briefly brought up the issue that, if Thor and Loki were still kids a thousand years ago, how did the stories about them (which Eric Selvig went and dug out of the local library!) come to pass? If Snorri Sturluson knew that Loki was half-frost giant, why didn’t Loki himself know it?
This movie has the same issue. Hel is a major figure in Norse myth, the northern European equivalent of Pluto or Hades or Lucifer: the person in charge of the land of the dead. She’s also Loki’s daughter in Norse myth. (Stan Lee and Jack Kirby changed her name to Hela probably because the Comics Code Authority would balk at her original name.) To change her to Thor and Loki’s long-lost sister that they’d never heard of—again, why don’t they know who she is when people on Earth who’ve studied Norse myth do?—is a random and stupid change that adds nothing to the story of significance. Seriously, the fact that she’s Thor’s sister has no real effect on the plot that actually matters in the movie, beyond Banner initially not wanting to get involved because Thor makes it sound like a sibling rivalry rather than a coup on Asgard.
Worst of all, though, is that this movie redshirts the Warriors Three, and would have done the same for Sif if Jaimie Alexander wasn’t too busy starring on a TV show (which is the first nice thing I’m willing to say about Blindspot, which is a really dreadful series). It’s obvious that Hogun’s final confrontation with Hela was originally meant for Sif, and it would have been a truly despicable and horrific end to one of Marvel’s strongest female characters. But even without Sif, this is a contemptible misuse of three of Marvel’s most venerable and delightful supporting characters, who were established in Thor as being his nearest and dearest comrades. And this movie just kills them perfunctorily without even much of a fight, just so they can show how badass Hela is. Except we know how badass Hela is already—she fucking blew up Mjolnir with one hand! Her badassitude was well established, so there was no need to just cast aside Thor’s three best friends on the altar of proving it once again. Especially since Thor never once even asks about Hogun, Fandral, or Volstagg. Their deaths are never passed on to him, he never gets a chance to mourn them, or even give any indication that he gives a rat’s ass about them. The only non-family Asgardian he has any significant interactions with is Heimdall, who gets treated generally way better, I guess because he’s played by a more famous actor.
And then in the end they blow it all up. Sure, Asgard was destroyed in the comics at one point, but that was after decades of stories, not a tiny handful of them.
Then there’s Skurge, which is a different kind of mistake.
I’ve said this before: The best superhero comics adaptations are ones that distill decades of history into a single movie (Iron Man is a particularly good example of this). The worst are the ones that compress decades of history into a single movie (Spider-Man 3 is a particularly sad example of this). It’s all well and good to use the comics as source material, even using individual sets of pages as your storyboard. We just saw that last week, with Scott Derrickson using the opening bit in Doctor Strange: The Oath with Strange’s astral form kibitzing over his physical form being operated on.
The death of Skurge in Thor #382 is one of the many many many great, brilliant, magnificent moments in Walt Simonson’s deservedly famous run on the title. Skurge, nicknamed the Executioner, had been the textbook definition of a minor villain since he was introduced in Journey into Mystery in 1964 as a lackey of the Enchantress. After their attack on Thor in that issue, they’re exiled to Earth and join up with Baron Zemo’s Masters of Evil, one of the Avengers’ long-running foes.
Over the decades, the Executioner rarely elevated himself above the ranks of big dumb sidekick to the Enchantress. He wasn’t even always used with her, and never amounted to much of anything. The Enchantress herself often treated him dismissively.
So when he joins the expedition to retrieve lost souls from Hela’s domain in the storyline that climaxes in Thor #382, it seems a bit odd, but then he defends the bridge at Gjallerbru, the last stand against the hordes of Hela that allows Thor, Balder, and the rest to escape with the stolen souls. It’s a magnificent moment, one of the best in Thor’s comics history, and it works because it’s the final redemption of a second-rate character who finally found his place in the great stories of the warriors of Asgard.
By comparison, for all that Karl Urban does his usual spectacular job of making Skurge into a three-dimensional character, there just isn’t time, with everything else going on, for Skurge’s journey from toady to hero to land properly. It’s less an adaptation of the sequence in the comics and more a pale imitation of it.
This is all made infinitely more frustrating by the fact that this wholesale mistreatment of Asgard and the Norse gods and the history in both comics and mythology of these characters is all framing a movie that’s actually tremendous fun.
The opening bits are superb, from Thor’s action-filled and hilarious battle with Surtur (though, again, why doesn’t Thor know all this stuff about Ragnarok when it’s been known to humans on Midgard since forever?).
His exposure of Loki’s disguise is hilarious. Sir Anthony Hopkins nails it, perfectly doing Loki imitating Odin. The play—performed by Sam Neill, Matt Damon, and Chris Hemsworth’s brother—is a thing of beauty, complete with a delightful callback to one of the most magnificently surreal moments in Thor comics, when Loki turned Thor into a frog. (Yes, really. Do yourself a favor, do what you can to track down copies of Thor #364-366 from 1986. You won’t regret it. “In this issue, Thor croaks!”) The search for Odin gives us a hilarious cameo from Doctor Strange, followed by a truly tragic final scene between a father and his contentious sons.
The scenes on Sakaar are where the movie shine, of course. Taika Waititi gives the whole thing an Eighties action-movie vibe, from the bright colors to the over-the-top Kirbyesque outfits to the very Max Headroom-ish holographic images of the Grandmaster to the soundtrack to hitting every cliché of the people-trapped-in-a-gladiatorial-arena storyline. Waititi throughout the movie dances on the edge between drama with comedic overtones and out-and-out slapstick, and it’s to his credit that he generally maintains his balance. (He only goes over the edge a few times, like the “devil’s anus” joke, which I’m sure some people found funny, but struck me as a little too pre-pubescent-giggly.)
And, as I said above, this is a great Hulk movie. I maintain that Avengers is the best Hulk movie yet made, and this doesn’t quite blow past it; however, it sits comfortably in the second spot, in my opinion. Mark Ruffalo remains magnificent, playing the Hulk’s childlike mien both in the arena and when talking to Thor in their shared quarters, as well as Banner’s befuddlement and attempt to figure out what the heck’s going on when he wakes up for the first time in two years. The character’s heroism shines through, as well, as he very much wants to do the right thing, even if it means sacrificing his own humanity.
Ruffalo is but one of a dozen actors doing great work here, as no matter what the issues with the story, there’s not a bad performance in the bunch. Chris Hemsworth and Tom Hiddleston remain a superb double act, from their confrontation on Asgard to their seeking out Odin on Earth (and kudos to the costuming department, as the civilian clothes they each wear to blend in on Earth are perfect) to “get help.” I love that Thor actually anticipates Loki’s sudden-but-inevitable betrayal and deals with it, and the two have a sibling chemistry that is spot on. I particularly love both their reactions to the Hulk’s arrival. Thor is delighted, of course, as seeing the Hulk is the first good thing that’s happened to him since he went home to Asgard, but what I especially love is the look of sheer terror on Hiddleston’s face as Loki sees the creature who slammed him into the floor over and over again in Stark Tower.
The rest of the cast shines as well. Hopkins, as I said, nails his role, from playing Loki impersonating Odin to playing a dying Odin who carries the weight of his decisions (mostly the bad ones) all the way to his grave. Idris Elba is never not awesome as Heimdall (or as anyone, truly), Tessa Thompson does a sterling job as the drunken PTSD Valkyrie, and Cate Blanchett is superlative playing Hela as, basically, the queen of the Goths. (Amusingly, Blanchett plays Hela pretty much the same way she played Lou in Ocean’s Eight, which is just fabulous.) Waititi himself is tremendous fun as Korg, who sounds like a cross between a Hawai’ian surfer and (according to Waititi himself) a Polynesian bouncer.
And holy crap, Jeff Goldlbum. I love the way he does the Grandmaster as a mixture of Max Headroom, Richard Dawson’s Damon Killian in The Running Man, and, well, Jeff Goldblum as his Jeff Goldblummiest. Just a sheer joy from the moment he shows up on screen. Points also to Rachel House, who has the thankless job of playing the Grandmaster’s sidekick with an animus for one of the heroes who gets a shot to kill them and is instead defeated. (Like I said, every cliché….)
Amidst all the goofy jokes and slapstick bits, there’s some good discoursing on heroism here, as Thor never once loses sight of the fact that he’s in this to save people. Neither does Banner, and part of the fun of the film is watching the Valkyrie get back into that particular headspace.
Still don’t see why they had to trash Asgard, too. (And then they double down on it in Infinity War, but we’ll get to that down the line…)
Next week, we come back to Earth to look in on the rest of the Avengers in Captain America: Civil War.
Keith R.A. DeCandido has written prose featuring both Marvel’s version of Thor—in the Tales of Asgard trilogy, starring Thor, Sif, and the Warriors Three—and the original Norse god Thor—in the tales of Cassie Zukav, weirdness magnet.
It occurs to me that Thor’s confrontation with Surtur could be a call back to Black Widow’s interrogation of the Russian mobsters in Avengers.
I think the absolute absurdity of the movie’s relationship to Norse myth might be part of its commentary on revisionist history. I don’t think there’s any myth related detail introduced in this movie that’s actually correct.
While Skurge’s arc doesn’t live up to the comics, it still adds some complexity to the Hela-centric scenes.
Someone pointed out right after Ragnarok came out that Thor gets slammed exactly like Loki did in Avengers – same beats (pardon the pun).
Other than that, I agree with Keith on how they handled the Marvel Norse mythology – completely disappointed. I especially didn’t like the tease of seeing Beta Ray Bill on the champion’s tower and not actually seeing a Korbinite…
Typo alert: Valkyrie gives Korg and Miek weapons and their freedom form the implants.
And I have similar mixed feelings, although my dislike is not so … visceral; but I hated the way they offed the Warriors Three. Despite which, this is very firmly near the top on my list of MCU movies.
I thought Emily did a great job on this blog discussing how Ragnarok completes the arc of Odin the revisionist imperialist, and how Hela as his daughter/ Thor and Loki’s sister works for the narrative. Just for an interesting counterpoint! https://www.tor.com/2017/11/07/thor-ragnarok-is-a-hilarious-blockbuster-about-the-evils-of-imperialism/
They mention how Odin kind of views humanity (Jane specifically) as about as smart as a goat. It would make sense that he would revise history in Asgard, where it “matters”, while he may not have cared that humanity knew about the truth of Hela. Or humanity got the dregs of the true history and conflict from the Asgardians who escaped Odin’s censorship, or were banished to Earth like Thor was.
You have put into words for me why I absolutely hate this movie as a Thor movie.
Our understanding of Norse religion is really pretty scant–our best sources are from 13th century Iceland, two hundred years after Iceland had converted to Christianity. So I can forgive the films (and the comics) their dodgy basis in mythology.
I am with you on the treatment of beloved characters though. Ultimately I don’t feel like the MCU movies quite know what to do with Asgardian characters; most of why Thor, Loki, and Odin work is that they lucked into talented actors with good chemistry. It’s a shame then I think that they don’t really have any good ideas about what to do with Thor and Loki either. Thor is retreading a journey that, really, he has taken before. It’s down to Hemsworth playing a self-important-but-well-meaning-chowderhead that makes it work.
Loki though, oh Loki. As fun as it is to see Hemsworth and Hiddleston play off each other, Loki’s arc over the movies doesn’t make a lot of sense. Back in Avengers Loki was being compared to straight-up Nazis, but here he’s just… a lovable scamp? The through-line on his story is not convincing, and it makes me worry about how he is going to be portrayed in the future.
But yeah the movie is funny and fun, and my complaints about it don’t diminish my enjoyment of it.
@6 I’m not sure if this is actually established in the movie or not but my understanding that Avengers!Loki was at least under hostile mental influence if not outright mind-controlled.
I guess I’m the only one not disappointed that they offed the Warriors Three. I never liked them in the comics, and I didn’t like them in the first 2 Thor movies. I like a bit of cheese, but these characters always left me feeling meh.
Sakaar was so supremely Kirby-esq, Tiaka really nailed the look perfectly. I wish there was more behind the scenes of him and Goldblum together on set, that must have been truly bizarre.
The frog bit got me laughing the most, because I remember that from The New Mutants when they went to Asgard. There’s once panel with a frog wearing Thor’s helmet, armor, and cape watching Dani petting a pegasus. I did not catch that the actor playing Thor in the play was Chris’ brother, though I noted Damon as Loki for the tribute to Dogma. Hopkins looked like he was having a supreme amount of fun playing Loki playing Odin.
I didn’t catch in my first viwing that the tower with the former champion heads included Beta Ray Bill, but saw it in my second viewing. Lovely little easter-egg.
@6, I recall reading that they’ve retroactively stated that Loki was originally being controlled by Thanos through the Mind Stone in the scepter, and once Loki no longer had it, the control was waning, reverting him to a mischievous role rather than straight up villainous one.
Unrelated to the plot: technological backstory. The way Asgard is flat, and then explodes, recalls the use of encapsulated neutronium established by Robert L. Forward and Wil McCarthy. What if the place was built by someone else (Eternals or Celestials are the go-tos, but surely there are other mega-engineers running around) and the proto-Asgardians merely colonized it? The whole “Realm Eternal” is just sloganeering. (See also: the Nidavellir installation where Mjolnir was forged.)
It seems that Asgardians have a lifetime of “only” a few millennia — although Odin and his Odinforce-bed might be an exception. Hence Thor’s line to Surtur, “didn’t my father defeat you, like, half a million years ago?” can only be explained as hyperbole, possibly an insult (“you’re so old and creaky”).
My mother initially had trouble with titles like “goddess of death” and “god of lightning”, but they’re easier to stomach if you view them as epithets (“this person has an exceptional talent for”) not personifications (i.e., a whole lot of death and lightning happen across the universe without the personal involvement of Hela or Thor). And those talents do seem to be exceptional, even among Asgardians — maybe their species has mutants/inhumans, just as do humans?
How did Earth turn Asgardian personages into myth, even if distorted? The first Thor movie alluded to a battle between Odin and the Frost Giants, and Agents of SHIELD established that, at least once, Asgard dispatched foot soldiers — at least one of whom went AWOL and eventually became a college professor. There’s no sign of a Bene Gesserit-style Panoplia Prophetica, embedding myths among credulous natives to later serve as protective cover, but it’s the sort of thing wily-Odin would do.
Ahhhhhhh! I have to disagree with you on some of this, as this is my absolute favorite MCU movie (Spider-Man: Homecoming is probably the one right under it) and might actually be the first one we actually bought to keep at home. Of course, I don’t have the specific attachment to Thor (either the mythology or the comics) that might cause me to feel upset about it. I DO agree with you about the Warriors Three, though.
But everything else about this movie, I adore. The performances, the soundtrack (the fact that Immigrant Song actually made it into the movie is just…my favorite thing), the humor, Jeff Goldblum and Cate Blanchett in what I think are my favorite and hammiest roles for them (and I get a kick out of Blanchett as basically Dark Galadriel), and I’ve loved Tessa Thompson since she was in Veronica Mars, the relationship-building and character development, the commentery on imperialism and whitewashing history, etc.
Honestly, i looooove it. And I think what really hammers that home for me is that, the second time I saw it, was on a plane. I was coming back from a business trip that involved night shifts, and then directly after a night shift had to catch a plane in La Guardia (it was my first time in that airport, and I was not impressed). After a really grueling ordeal and finally being able to board the plane, they had an inflight movie. I picked Ragnarok. I had barely slept in nearly 24 hours, and was cranky/grumpy, but I had the biggest grin on my face throughout the entire flight (and that was with already having seen the movie and knowing the jokes were coming). I just find that movie an absolute delight to watch.
I found this one mildly amusing in the moment, but superficial and ultimately deeply unsatisfying. My review:
https://christopherlbennett.wordpress.com/2018/05/23/i-finally-saw-thor-ragnarok-spoiler-review/
Excerpts:
In the original Thor, the conflict between the brothers Thor and Loki was the emotional core of the film. That same family conflict, also including Odin and Frigga, was the most notable part of the second film as well. But here, we have Thor battling the sister he never knew he had — indeed, the original bearer of Mjolnir — and the fact of that relationship has effectively zero impact on the story… It just lies there and nothing is really done with it from a character standpoint. …Meanwhile, the entire character arc of… Skurge… is conveyed almost completely through Karl Urban repeatedly looking sullen and conflicted. The fact that most of the established Asgardian characters are killed off as an afterthought also weakens the impact of the conquest of Asgard, since there’s nobody there whose point of view we can identify with for much of Hela’s invasion.
…
I’ve heard a lot of praise for this movie, and I just don’t get it…. The MCU’s films and some of its TV shows have plenty of humor, even outright comedy, but they also have emotional depth and sincerity and a real sense of stakes and danger. This movie only seemed to care about laid-back snark and put little effort into the rest. None of the characters really seemed to be more than mildly annoyed or disappointed about any of the huge, intense, tragic, dramatic stuff that happened, so it was hard for me as a viewer to care much about it either. It was an amusing way to pass 2 hours and a bit, but it provided no substance that lasted beyond the moment. It’s really quite dissatisfying after the fact. This is the way Asgard ends: not with a bang, but with a shrug.
Also, one other thing, and I realize this is maybe out there, but given that this is Tor I feel like this is the one place somebody else might appreciate this ;)
While watching Ragnarok, I kept feeling like Jeff Goldblum’s character was somewhat familiar to me. And then I realized – it was a character with a flare for brightly colored unsymmetrical/diagonal clothes that likes to collect things (also, omg, I totally forgot to mention the bizarre appearance of ‘Pure Imagination’ which also deserves note and shouldn’t work but IT SO DOES), at least according to the little intro about Sakaar (“It is the collection point for all lost and unloved things. Like you.”).
ANYWAY – I get in his case he’s collecting unloved things instead of special things, but I realized that the thing buzzing around the back of my head was Kivas Fajo from an old TNG episode, and specifically a ‘fashion’ blog post that somebody posted back during the rewatch that pointed out all the diagonal clothes.
I absolutely love this film. Might possibly be my favourite individual film from the whole MCU.
As I mentioned in the Guardians review, I would really have liked this movie if it were about 20% less silly. Thor’s character and demeanor have changed too much since we last saw him. And yet, the next time we see Thor and the Guardians together, it’s gold. Go figure.
This movie ruined “Immigrant Song” for me. I can’t hear it and keep a straight face anymore.
Like everyone else, totally crushed about the Warriors Three. In fact, it’s one of the few things in the MCU that I simply refuse to accept. It didn’t happen. You didn’t see what you thought you saw. End of argument.
Before the MCU, I was much more familiar with Norse mythology than with Marvel Comics. This led to my disgust with the first two Thor movies (the first one lost me when Odin offered up a platitude on the virtues of peace). Basically, I saw them as cheap knockoffs that kept the names but little else from a deep and rich mythology.
Thor: Ragnarok, on the other hand, is just bonkers. Its unabashed lunacy lets me overlook the few ties it has to Norse mythology, and I never cared about the various minor characters from the first two Thor movies, so I didn’t mind their ignominious deaths.
While this movie does go kind of overboard with the goofiness at times, it’s worth remembering the Norse myths could be restlessly silly at times, especially when dealing with Thor. Thor goes in drag to pretend marrying a giant so he can retrieve Mjolnir! Thor is trolled by giants who make him fight an old lady and struggle to lift a cat’s paw! The thing is, the Ragnarok story itself was brutal and grim and sent the silliness packing back home.
@16/J. Bencomo: Yeah, that’s what’s so bizarre about the thinking behind this movie. “Okay, time to do the story about the darkest, most apocalyptic event in Norse mythology and kill off most of the Thor characters. Let’s hire a comedy director and make it a whimsical romp full of snarky wisecracks and sketch comedy bits!” What the Hel? I mean, putting in some comic relief to temper a dark story is one thing, but this is a near-complete avoidance of the darkness of the premise. It’s like the Gilligan’s Island version of Hamlet, a massive tonal mismatch with the subject matter. Mashing it up with Planet Hulk didn’t do the Ragnarok story any favors either.
I think a lot of the inconsistencies with Norse mythology can be handwaved away by (a) Odin’s propagandising and (b) the fact the stories were long passed down by word of mouth, which means they got embellished and distorted – hence we have Hela’s details wrong and have Thor in stories he was too young to have participated in. As for Loki not knowing he’s a frost giant: maybe that was an embellishment that just happened to be correct, and the Asgardians never paid enough attention to Norse mythology to notice. The point is, none of this stuff bothers me in the least. Norse mythology is not a carefully worked-out text like, say, Pride and Prejudice, and can and should be mucked about with for the sake of a good story. Also, if it does bother you, you should really blame the first two films as they’re the ones creating most of the inconsistencies.
As for the Warriors Three, they were so forgettable in the first two movies that I still don’t know which is which, so offing them was fine by me!
Remember that much of what we know about Norse mythology comes from one person (Snorri Sturluson), so it’s largely his particular sense of humor.
This is probably my favorite MCU movie, but I find I still agree completely with Keith. It’s very good movie but a lousy adaptation of Thor comics. I can overlook this – the movie is great enough on it’s own, especially the Sakaar section in the middle. I would like it if the films could capture what made the Simonson run so great, something they never managed, despite the MCU as a whole mining a lot from it (the final act of Avengers owes a lot to Surtur’s demon attack on NYC, for example). But I also have the Simonson trades on my shelf when I want to reach for them; they aren’t reduced by the existence of film. Can’t wait to see what Waititi and co. come up with for Love and Thunder.
Infinity War’s doing to this movie what Alien3 did to Aliens does not make me happy, but we’ll get there (and I expect Keith will have something to say about that).
@17: Pretty much, yeah, like it was trying to avoid becoming grimdark, but went too far in the other direction.
Can’t disagree with most of what you’ve said krad. It’s amazing that the movie holds together given the mashup of disparate sources. Despite that, I unreservedly love it. As Lisamarie said, it brings a smile just to watch it. Resistance crumbles in the way of the clear amount of fun and joy that comes across.
It helps that Waititi is one of my favorite creative people. His sense of humor hits me in the sweet spot. CLB: “None of the characters really seemed to be more than mildly annoyed or disappointed about any of the huge, intense, tragic, dramatic stuff that happened,” This is a feature of his humor, not a bug. It’s an existential response to horror and darkness. I had a similar reaction to What We Do in the Shadows. i avoided it, didn’t think I’d like it. When I finally watched it, i had a grin on my face almost the entire time. And I’m looking forward to Jo Jo Rabbit knowing it could go off the rails.
Sometimes the only sane response to the grimmest reality is absurdity and a sense of resignation (Kierkegaard), not sonorous, ponderous seriousness.
About the Warriors Three: guess they didn’t know what to do with them. Outside of the opening to Thor 2, they didn’t do much elsewhere. Maybe Jaime Alexander begged off when she found out they were going to kill Sif. Good for her.
And speaking of deviations from myth and comics, why isn’t Balder in any of these films?
We’re getting Lady Jane/Thor next time. Not sure Waititi will pull that off, especially the cancer aspect. Even less sure that he would be a good fit for what I hope will be Thor 5, featuring Viking Thor, King Thor and his granddaughters, and Gorr, the God-Butcher. One of the best stories of recent Thor comics, if not ever.
The things about jk Loki was mind-controlled the whole time are that:
1) It totally robs Loki’s villainy of any meaning at all. Hiddleston’s performance in Avengers was a great, a portrayal of a desperate person who had gotten in way over his head but was still committing to his bad choices. If he’s just a dupe then all of that is ruined.
2) Even if that was the case Loki is still someone who tried to start a genocidal war before any of that stuff took place!
@23, I agree, it’s a cop-out so that Disney can make a TV show about the character, which means he can’t be an actual villain.
@22/Sunspear: For me, it’s a bug. Waititi’s style and tone of humor just turn me off. His characters feel so little about what’s happening that the story fails to engage my emotions. If other people find his style engaging, that’s great for them, but it left me cold.
@18. Michael: Even Neil Gaiman’s retelling of Norse mythology had internal inconsistencies. Particularly, one of the main problems is the rendering of Loki, who went from mischief/troublemaker, who also often benefitted the gods, to outright hater of the gods, specifically Balder, without transition. At one point, Gaiman simply starts referring to him as “evil”.
Also, regarding Ragnarok: it’s a cyclical event, both in myth and comics. It has happened before and will happen again. The fact that this version of Asgard is destroyed means it will come back. Maybe Thor will bring the fragments down to Earth to float over Oklahoma as in JMS’s storyline. Or maybe New Asgard will grow from the fishing village ruled by Queen Valkyrie.
@24. Bonhed: I wouldn’t see it as a cop-out if they flesh him out even more. There are other versions of Loki where he’s justified in rebelling against the gods.
A much better and more interesting portrait of Loki (than Gaiman’s) was in A.S. Byatt’s Ragnarok: the End of the Gods, where his reasons for resenting the gods, their basic cruelty and injustice, make him almost the hero of the story.
@26/Sunspear: That fishing village is explicitly called New Asgard in Endgame. (It’s the same village where the Tesseract was kept until the Red Skull found it.)
And apparently Valkyrie’s real name is Brunnhilde. At least Tessa Thompson has indicated that she is “THE Valkyrie” from the comics, whose name is Brunnhilde after the lead Valkyrie from Wagner’s Ring Cycle (well, from various myths, but the spelling comes from Wagner).
@CLB: yeah, I know it’s called that. Think there’s even a signpost in the movie. I meant that it will grow from its current humble form to a great city once again.
Thompson has also said that she will be looking for her queen. Wonder who that will turn out to be.
Btw: THE Valkyrie, the only remaining one, is currently Jane Foster in the comics. She’s gobbling up these titles.
The Walt Simonson run of Thor was one of the best ever, and I remember the day I read the Executioner’s stand at Gjallerbru when it first came out. It was awesome.
And then Thor was turned into a giant frog. I was hoping at the time, that when froggy Thor was flying through the air, we’d here from below, “It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s a Frog!” And Thor chuckling and replying “No, neither bird nor plane nor even frog…just little ol’ me, Thunder Frog.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dLxtIImtFU
Different strokes. “Thor” was my least favorite Phase 1 film. “Thor: The Dark World” remains my least favorite M.C.U. film, which honestly I’d recommend people skip it if it wasn’t so important to the larger story being told – and I know you love it, I’m just sharing my opinion. Thor as a character, came off much better in “The Avengers”, but he faded for me in the disjointed “Age of Ultron”. Before the release of the “Ragnarok” trailers, the only thing that made me at all interested in seeing it was that following “Iron Man 3” & “Captain America: Civil War”, the third Thor film would likely be the last time I’d have to struggle through one of his solo entries. But then that all changed for me with “Ragnarok”. I loved it. And much to my surprise, I loved Thor. I too was annoyed by the flippant deaths of the Warriors Three, but only slightly – even as they died I cheered – even as I was grateful that Sif was nowhere in sight (and I do keep hoping she’ll turn up again down the line). Thor 1 & 2 were so deadly dull but 3 was something else. It’s one of the darkest films in the 23 films we have so far but it’s also one of the funniest. I left that movie excited to see Thor return and I hoped that “Infinity War” & “Endgame” would not preclude a Thor 4. “Love & Thunder” can’t arrive soon enough for me.
Yeah, this one was fun to watch once, but it bugged me afterwards. An entire world is destroyed and . . . nobody cares, because jokes. It’s not a bad Planet Hulk movie with Thor guest-starring, but the handling of the Nine Worlds is uninspiring. Ragnarok should be giants of ice and fire battling with a million Valkyries darkening the sky. This was a bit flat and encapsulates a lot of my problems with Phase 3. Marvel is visually underachieving and proud of it.
@32. Almuric: not sure there were ever a million Valkyries, either myth or comic. And did you see the screenshot of the Valkyries darkening the sky in the article?
I’d agree with you in some limited sense about Marvel’s sometimes grayish “grounded” cinematography, but don’t think it applies to this movie specifically.
@33. I remember the scene (which looked great), but it wasn’t from the actual battle of Ragnarok.
This movie is visually better than some Marvel movies, but sadly that’s not saying much.
I’m totally sympathetic to the “ruined the Ragnarok/myth cycle” complaint, but this is such a fun road movie mixed with multiple characters learning to value people over things. Thor has to learn to stop valuing Asgard the place and to care about the people instead. Grandmaster is a “people as things” kind of person; the Hulk/Banner story is about coming to an understanding about Hulk as a person with a right to exist.
This movie is also the anti-DC movie, doubling down on humor and refusing to take its own mythology seriously. I can see why people with a deep investment in the myth wouldn’t appreciate that, but the contrast between how this movie treats, say, the relationship between Thor and Hela versus the deployment of “Martha” in Batman v. Superman strikes me as deliberate. “Hey, turns out I have a murderous sister I’ve never met who wants to do terrible things. Yup, that sounds like par for the course.” This movie is a full-throated rejection of angst coupled with a deep embrace of dark humor.
Also, the end credit animation is better than most films I saw in 2017.
This movie was like if Ice Pirates, Battle Beyond the Stars, The Last Starfighter, and every other 80s low-budget sci-fi action movie was made into a rainbow frappucino of a film.
I did like it, and disappointed as I was by the deaths of the Warriors Three, I didn’t feel like they were being used well enough beforehand to work, and the Russos do so much more to show Thor’s reaction to the events of this movie in Infinity War than Ragnarok .
I was more disappointed by how little emotional impact the Skurge arc has due to them compressing it to just one movie, but I do want to praise Karl Urban’s performance. He does a great job keeping a stony face as Hela goes on her murderous rampage, but letting his eyes show the fear, disgust, and self-loathing that eventually turns into a moral awakening.
This might be my favourite score of all MCU films, though it might just be the Devo fan in me.
@36. Montagny: “he Russos do so much more to show Thor’s reaction to the events of this movie in Infinity War than Ragnarok”
Not to mention the delayed PTSD in Endgame.
On Thor’s PTSD though, in this film the hits keep coming so fast he never really gets a chance to process it.
After all he’s relating the events to Hulk as “and that happened like, yesterday, so …”.
He’s totally focussed on Hela, and then on his people, and then Thanos arrives so he turns his pain into rage. And that fails too. I honestly really like the arc he takes – I know quite a few people with PTSD and they related very strongly to that, and especially to Fat Thor.
The Warriors Three though were indeed wasted, and needed more, well, anything really. They were just recognisable characters who were thrown away. Woo. And Korg and Miek effectively took their roles later.
But I utterly love this film, the style, the jokes, and especially the way it took the pomposity and ponderous mythology and turned it on it’s head – it’s all a big lie, the triumph of Odin over the darker reality of history. Totally worked for me.
Although I also felt the Devil’s Anus was a bit of a low effort.
I thoroughly enjoyed the movie for 99% of the run time, but the placement of a joke *directly after Thor watched his home crumble into ashes* was a real annoyance.
The WORST superhero movie ever made (and I’m including Roger Corman’s unreleased Fantastic Four movie. At least it took the characters seriously). The director basically just used the characters for a long, drawn out SNL skit. He fell into the habit of making Thor nothing more than a big lug who’s not too bright, which sadly, the subsequent disappointing Avenger films followed up on. Brannagh was able to infuse humor into the character without taking away his essential dignity. I suggest the director go back to his padded comedy films and Marvel needs to respect the original material more. If I want silly slapstick camp, I’ll go watch Adam West’s Batman again.
@40/Troyce: Oh, portraying Thor as a dumb lug goes back to The Avengers.
Though the real world reason Thor strays so far from myth is probably Stan Lee only remembered bits of myth by way of Wagner and the movie makers knew even less, I thought the canon reason was that red bearded Thorr who is married to golden-haired Sif and has Loki for an uncle was all part of the Age of Aries cycle of Ragnarök and they all died around year one of the common era. Golden-haired Thor and his brother Loki are all part of the Age of Pisces cycle, so everything is different and so human retellings of the history of the previous version are unreliable and irrelevant because nothing is necessarily the same.
That being said, that hand wave always disappointed me and I was happy when Simonson took over the conics and everything a little more Norse.
This movie is more of a series of great moments stitched together that carry the film, but I do love those great moments and have watched this thing over and over, The whole first act from Muspelheim to Midgard? Thor and Loki on the elevator? Love it
@42/TMarrion: I think that in the original comics, “Thor” was just a superhero form that Donald Blake transformed into. It was only later established, through the “Tales of Asgard” backup features, that he was actually the Thor from Norse mythology, and that he had an independent existence separate from Donald Blake — and eventually, IIRC, that “Donald Blake” was just a fiction created by Odin to teach Thor a lesson in humility.
I have to echo Lisamarie’s comment (@10), she seems to have my exact same reaction to this movie. If it’s not my absolute fave MCU film, it’s definitely in my top 3. Is it perfect? Definitely not. Like most I thought it was a shame how The Warriors Three were handled (and so thanked my lucky stars Jamie Alexander wasn’t there and has a chance to reappear later as Sif), and some of the pacing feels a little rushed, IMO (they find Odin, and then he’s dead, though credit to the actors for what they did in a limited time span).
I actually think the inconsistencies between Norse mythology on Earth vs on Asgard (i.e. why no one knows about Hela but she’s featured in Norse myths) are easier to explain away in this than in the first Thor film, in that…MCU Earth is not our Earth, obviously. There are differences, historically speaking. So yes, Selvig and others mention Thor, Loki, etc, but maybe Hela didn’t make it to MCU Norse mythology? Odin had already banished her by that point? I dunno. That probably won’t work for some people, and that’s fine, but it does for me.
I also disagree with people saying Thor and Loki’s arc’s in this film weren’t consistent. I thought this was a perfect through-line with their progression as established in the film appearances they’ve been in (plus there’s 2 or so years of progression we don’t see in Thor, and a smidge more for Loki as he was pretending to be Odin), I can completely buy this is where they’ve ended up. Comments about Thor reverting to a dumb brute or what have you I think miss the mark. He’s very bright, but as he has been in the rest of the movie series, can be ignorant of things he hasn’t encountered yet.
Asgard’s fate didn’t bug me much, in fact I like the “Asgard’s not a place, it’s a people” idea, and wish they’d leaned into that a bit stronger, but I can see why that would be an issue with some. I’m another who has never been big into Thor in the comics, so I don’t have a huge connection with the source material.
Also, possibly typo (though of a made-up word anyway, so not a huge deal, but…) @krad, did you mean to write “Goldummiest” or “Goldblummist” because for some reason “Goldummiest” sounds a bit like an insult. lol
@40 & 41, portraying Thor as a big, dumb lug goes back to the Elder Edda.
With the changes in tone and visual style, the dropped and new supporting cast and the special guest star, it feels exactly like a new creative team taking over a comic and getting a renumbered issue 1.
@roxana: there’s also Gaiman’s version from Sandman’s “Season of Mists.” A large dumb red-bearded lecherous brute who hits on the Egyptian cat-goddess Bast, telling her his hammer gets bigger if she’ll rub it. Then he makes a bad Thor/sore joke: “You’re thor? I’m so thor…”
He’s basically a berserker warrior in older versions of the myth.
Another angle is the ancestry of the original creators. Don’t have immediate access to the book (in storage):
Disguised as Clark Kent: Jews, Comics, and the Creation of the Superhero by Danny Fingeroth
but it dealt with their immigrant experience, especially how proud Kirby was to get his citizenship. In any case, there was some discussion of the Odin/Thor father/son conflict being drawn from their personal background, basing it more on an angry, unjust Yahweh, than the original Norse myths.
I’d like to think Kirby, in particular, would’ve appreciated the use of “Immigrant Song” in the movie.
Christopher: Your #43 is incorrect. Thor was introduced in Journey Into Mystery #83, and Asgard was brought into it only two issues later in #85, which introduced Loki, Heimdall, et al., with Odin making his first full appearance in #86, after a cameo in #85.
So the Asgardian stuff was brought in almost immediately.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@Sunspear, Thor hit on Bast? The deity likes to live dangerously.
AlexFromAwen: Thanks for catching that typo. I’ve fixed it……………
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
The reason for the change with Hela was probably because it’d be a little hard to buy Cate Blanchett as Tom Hiddleston’s daughter. Either way it’s not that big a deal unless you truly are a stickler for the source material. It may not add anything but it doesn’t take away anything either.
Part of the fun of adaptation is changing things here or there while still maintaining the general spirit of the source material. It’ would be pretty boring if they just tried to copy paste it.
I love the first Thor movie, need to re-watch the second to see if I still like it enough, but this one just didn’t do it for me. Too silly at times, and I know I am in the minority of fans when I say I did not like Banner’s arc from here through Endgame (I’ll get into it more when you review Infinity War). For a movie as colorful as it is, too many things just fall flat.
Changing Hela to Thor’s sister played into the theme of empires being built on blood and people not wanting to grapple with how their society got wealthy. It’s relevant here in the US and certainly relevant to someone with Watiti’s background. It’s how Valkyrie was brought around because she understood Thor cared about the people and not the trinkets bought with blood. It’s also why Asgard blowing up wasn’t as big of a loss. It also explains why the Earth myths are different than reality, Odin covered up the unpleasant aspects of his rise after he reformed.
I’m sure comics readers had more of a connections but I was glad little time was wasted on the warriors three. They added nothing.
@53/Secretary: Again, the problem Keith pointed out isn’t about the reality being different from the myths, but just the opposite — the reality in the movies is exactly like the myths, and that creates problems with how the stories are told. If Loki being half-Frost Giant was such a deep, dark secret that he didn’t find out about it until 2011, how did human bards know about it centuries earlier? And if human bards were blabbing about Loki’s secret parentage for hundreds of years, how did Loki never hear about it?
@53–I agree completely! Thanks for summing up my thoughts concisely.
This is a fascinating article–as someone who doesn’t read the comics, I had no background expectations for this movie or storyline. Ragnarok is one of my favorite Marvel movies.
As someone who wasn’t too much into comics Thor, I really enjoyed this movie. The frantic pace, the colors, it all reminded me of other comics (which I think were better) made by Kirby.
A pity for the Warriors Three, but the MCU wasn’t using them correctly either. Go back to Thor 1 or Thor 2 and see that.
I once counted, and in this movie the god of thunder gets electrocuted (IIRC) 7 times.
After reading through the comments and Keith’s detailed post (I always do love your posts even if I don’t say that enough ;) ) I think I do understand why some people just aren’t thrilled with this movie (especially if they already liked the originals and didn’t want to see it changed) wheras people like me loved it.
I’d never heard of Taika Waititi before I saw this movie, but apparently his brand of humor and commentery is right up my alley (I really do want to check out What We Do In the Shadows now, especially as I used to affect a few goth-y sensibilities in my youth so I love taking the piss out of that kind of thing in an affectionate way). I’d never even heard of Thor before the MCU (as a comic, I mean) so I wasn’t all that invested in how the story got treated. Even the issues with ‘how do we know Norse mythology when they don’t’ I can kind of handwave away (and aren’t really unique to this movie, as CLB points out above).
That said, if this guy had come on to direct say, the last Star Wars movie, and turned it into this, which is obviously quite a departure from the others, I’d probably be upset, no matter how good/funny/witty the movie was. (Although I’m actually quite excited to know that he’s going to be directing an episode of the Mandalorian, but I find the TV shows are a really great avenue to explore different themes and tones). It’s definitely a bit of whiplash compared to the others.
@58/Lisamarie: I have no prior attachment to the Thor character or comics and have no problem with revisionism. Waititi’s style of directing and humor just don’t work for me. I found the film mildly amusing but superficial and emotionally unengaging, which makes it unsatisfying for me as both a drama and a comedy.
@59 – I think that makes perfect sense as well. In a way it helps clarify my own reaction to it too. I was only speaking in generalities, so I wasn’t trying to make a blanket statement about everybody.
@Lisamarie: “I really do want to check out What We Do In the Shadows now, especially as I used to affect a few goth-y sensibilities in my youth so I love taking the piss out of that kind of thing in an affectionate way”
Affection is the operative word. Both the movie and TV series show fondness for the characters at the same time they are made fun of for their comical ineptness. And you’ll get treats like Doug Jones as an elder vampire. Later in the series (ep. 7) there are cameos and plentiful references to movie and TV vampire lore when we meet the Vampire Grand Council.
There’s also an “energy vampire”: “Unlike regular vampires he shows no outward sign of vampirism, except that his pupils sometimes glow and his reflection shows a pale version of himself. He drains humans (and vampires) of their energy by boring or enraging them.” (wiki) He has an duel with an emotional vampire, named Evie (he headslaps, “Oh, EV! I should have known!”) over the office workers that they compete to drain.
@57, Because Science did a bit about how Thor might not be immune to electricity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEF5UNyC4DU
Marvel was on a roll back in 2017 (Iron Fist aside). Three of the most entertaining MCU films being released mere months apart. Guardians 2, a solid sequel to the original, Spider-Man, a terrific solo outing for Holland’s version, and then Ragnarok.
From the minute I heard Led Zeppelin piping on that teaser trailer, I knew I was in for a rollercoaster ride of fun. That Immigrant Song made the final cut of the film, not once but twice was icing on the cake. The teaser alone told me everything i could expect from the film to the colorful Kirby visuals, the blatant homages to Flash Gordon using the big flashing credit font, and the overall silly tone.
I knew Hemsworth had comedic timing thanks not only to certain Avengers scenes (my brother’s adopted) but also his Ghostbusters work (a bright spot in a middling film). When Thor screams just before being introduced to the Grandmaster, I just about lost it. The Thor films needed that silliness badly. The first film was a fantastic shakespearean dance, while the second was a misfire that attempted to emulate the first to very mixed results.
Enter Taika Waititi. Never seen his work before, and now I can’t fathom another Thor film without him at the helm. He revitalized that corner of the MCU. The movie is pure joy, pure fun, pure laughs, most of them earned. A cast at the top of its game.
And then they cast Tessa Thompson, who at that point, I knew mainly due to Westworld. I had no idea she could play off Hemsworth and Ruffalo that well. It’s a great feeling when you discover how much range certain actors have that you didn’t know they previously had.
Goldblum being Goldblum. Never not fun.
Blanchett, likewise. I knew she would deliver with an over-the-top turn. After all, that was pretty much her acting mode in 2001’s action comedy The Bandits.
Then we get the best use of Bruce Banner in the MCU. Ruffalo amps it up to 11 with great results. This is one case where looking back and realizing recasting one of the main MCU players was a godsend. Could anyone imagine any of these scenes working with Edward Norton’s version*?
*Norton can be hilarious with the right role, but his Bruce Banner was anything but….
And Thor’s “He’s a friend from work” is already one of my all-time favorite movie lines.
Certain MCU films are worth watching maybe once or twice. I think I’ve seen Ragnarok at least seven times since it premiered. Twice in theatres, and every time I flip channels on TV and find it, I keep it on. The laughs are guaranteed, as is the wide grin on my face.
@63. Eduardo: “And Thor’s “He’s a friend from work” is already one of my all-time favorite movie lines.”
Supposedly that was suggested by a kid visiting the set. Hemsworth and Waititi tried it, liked, it and decided to keep it.
@63/Eduardo: I don’t disagree about the need for humor. I didn’t have a problem with the humor as far as it went. My problem is that there was so little else there. The best Marvel and other movies balance their humor with drama and emotion and action that feels like it has genuine stakes. The humor leavens the intensity of the rest of the story. But here, the humor dominated the tone so completely that what should have been intense dramatic or tragic moments felt cursory, as if the film itself was uninterested in them. Hela’s conquest and brutal rule of Asgard felt abstract and academic because there were no established characters left alive through whose eyes we could experience and feel the impact of her cruelties. The only viewpoint character there was Skurge, a character whose story arc was conveyed exclusively through Karl Urban’s conflicted facial expressions.
@65/Christopher: I agree that the humor in this one definitely drowns most of the potential emotion and stakes, but in this case I don’t necessarily see it as a liability.
This came after the heavy stakes of Civil War but before the even bigger stakes of Infinity War/Endgame. Seeing Ragnarok as an episode in a long-term season, it makes sense for it to be placed as a moment of levity and unabashed fun, the apparent calm before the inevitable storm (the film’s post-credits scene is pretty much that analogy in motion).
As for Hela’s conquest pf Asgard, it’s one situation where I find offing Thor’s mother in Dark World was beneficial in hindsight since there was no major character left to suffer the consequences of Hela’s takeover.
Krad mentioned his displeasure with the casual deaths of the Warriors Three. It’s funny he brought that up because when I did the full MCU rewatch prior to Endgame back in January, I was surprised when I saw the first two Thor films since I couldn’t even recall those characters (aside from Sif). That’s how little of an impact they had for me. So their demise in Ragnarok had little to no impact for me, because for me they were essentially redshirts in the most concrete sense.
@66/Eduardo: Again, I’ve got nothing against humorous films. I like the Ant-Man films quite a lot. But those films are more successful as humor and as drama than Ragnarok. They have an emotional core that engaged me in a way Ragnarok didn’t. Both humor and drama require that kind of engagement to be really effective.
Besides, if you want to do a movie that’s a lightweight break before the dark and heavy stuff begins, then maybe don’t make it a movie about the Norse apocalypse and the deaths of the main character’s friends, family, and entire civilization. Maybe do something less incongruous and save the Ragnarok story for later.
I didn’t expect the movie to try to take Norse mythology seriously. It tried to do the “big fantasy epic” thing in the first two movies, even if it didn’t go all-in on the mythology, and they really fell flat. The best parts of the first Thor movies were the funny moments (“Another!” and the pet shops) and the attempts at drama with Hemsworth weren’t emotionally convincing to me. (The dramatic moments with Hiddleston worked better, which may be part of why he became so popular – he added a lot of dimension to his character.)
So, with the humour working well and the drama working not very well, I’m not surprised that they decided to double down on the humour in Thor 3. Unfortunately they did it in the movie where the plot – the death of Odin, the conquest of Asgard, the destruction of Asgard, the themes of imperialism and whitewashing of history – is the darkest of any of the Thor films. It makes the movie very tonally discordant. While there’s plenty of funny bits, they don’t mesh with the serious bits – like the first Thor movie, it feels like multiple different films that have been mashed together.
Still, at least it’s not boring, so I’d give it 3/5 (my ranking for a lot of the MCU).
“Seriously, the fact that she’s Thor’s sister has no real effect on the plot that actually matters in the movie”
The fact that Hela is Thor’s sister is literally her plot armor! The movie strongly implies Asgardians get more powerful with age so only Odin and Surtur can defeat her. And even if she didn’t get more raw power over time, she has A LOT more experience using it. If she was Thor’s niece, it wouldn’t make sense for her to be stronger than him or Loki. The other reason to change family relations is to emphasize Odin’s shady side. Which may not have to do with plot but it’s very important for character.
From a Yahoo article
Well this is a surprise. A refreshing one, but a surprise nonetheless. I’ve always felt a little isolated in my distaste for this movie. It has its moments, including the best action scenes in the first three Thor movies, but the contempt it has for the character and his world is just frustrating for me. I like Thor. I like his supporting cast. I like the world he inhabits. So to see the franchise treated with such spite is disheartening and a little insulting. It’s like this movie is mocking Thor fans, which is not only a poor way to adapt a franchise, it’s a poor way to ensure its longevity. I don’t think its a coincidence that Love and Thunder received poorer reviews and word-of-mouth than this one. I admittedly haven’t watched it, but I know that spite for your audience doesn’t keep people coming back. Let’s hope that the right lessons are learned from L&T’s less positive reception.
I like the movie but I’m supremely disappointed with how Hela turned out. She doesn’t have any interesting dimensions. I’ve been watching clips of the new what if episode where she’s in China with wenwu so maybe even the studio realized they wasted her.
Sigh…. she could’ve bewn a Contendah
I must admit that it’s weird seeing a review of this movie. It’s entered the pop culture collective unconsciousness so much at this point, that complaining about it in any way feels like complaining about snow (stupid snow. As a means for transport, I love it. As water, I hate it).
I thought it was clever how they figured out how to bring about Ragnarok. But, you’re right: it’s not very serious Thor movie, which turned out to be a plus. The first two Thor movies were disasters, somehow managing to make intrinsically interesting stories dull as dishwater.
The only part I hate is the end credit scene, in which we come to the contractually obligated MCU mythos scene, which of course anticipates another Massacre of the Innocents.
@71/J.U.N.O.: I had the same reaction to the Hela What If…? episode. It might be my favorite of the season, since giving Thor’s redemption arc to Hela finally gives her some of the dimensions she totally lacked in the movie.
@CLB
Nice. What do you think about the rest of them?
@74/J.U.N.O.: Like any anthology, some episodes were better than others, but overall I think I found season 2 more consistent than season 1. Certainly less bleak; season 1 had a number of what-if scenarios that ended tragically or apocalyptically, but there are more happy endings this time.
This was my favorite What If episode too!!
Especially as it combined two of my favorite things – Hela (and I was really surprised at how great her arc was) and Wenwu’s penchant for women who can kick his ass, lol.
@@@@@ 76 Wait a minute…I actually share something with Wenwu????
Seriously, I just LOVED the scenery chewing (and you gotta know Cate Blanchett was having a ball), and the fact that I had several acquaintances voicing three roles gave me a personal connection (Feodor Chin as Wenwu was particularly gobsmacking since Fe usually does these over the top comedy roles).
@@@@@ Lisamarie
*Bart Simpson voice* Cool
I hope Leah or somebody on Tor starts to review the second season. I’d love for more conversation on them.