This past weekend, Star Trek novelist Dave Galanter, whose work included the Voyager novel Battle Lines, as well as the recent Discovery novel Dead Endless, lost his battle with cancer at the age of 51. He was a valued colleague and a dear friend, and he will be sorely missed. This week’s rewatches and reviews are dedicated to his memory.
So this week we find out the truth about who Carl is, we find out what Reno’s been doing all this time, we see Booker making himself useful to Discovery, we continue our lengthy digression into the Mirror Universe, and we bid goodbye to Philippa Georgiou, at least until she gets her spinoff.
Lots going on here, but the big thing is that I was so incredibly wrong about Carl.
Several folks, both in the comments of last week’s review, and elsewhere on the intarwebs, speculated that Carl was the Guardian of Forever. Me, I was thinking he was a Q, as I was focusing more on character and personality than the fact that he provided a door.
Well, it turns out that everyone else was right and I was Mr. Wrong Pants. Carl is indeed the personification of the Guardian of Forever, having given up talking in stentorian riddles, as we saw in “The City on the Edge of Forever” and “Yesteryear,” and instead taking on the persona of an old white guy from 20th-century Earth. It’s also on a different planet than it was on before, and both those changes are given a good reason: the Temporal Wars. Apparently the Guardian was used in the fighting, and being used for such awful purposes was devastating to the Guardian. (Paul Guilfoyle plays the regret and sorrow at being so abused beautifully.)
As for what the Guardian’s doing with Georgiou, it’s “weighing” her. Deciding if she’s worthy of being saved. And what he sees in her trip back to her home universe is that she has changed. It’s not a complete 180 from who she was, obviously, but living in the Federation in general and on Discovery in particular has changed her. She makes several moves in the direction of making the Terran Empire a better place. They’re small, incremental moves—probably the most significant is in treating the Kelpiens like people instead of slaves and/or food. This proves useful on two levels. On a microcosmic level, when her attempt to bring Burnham to her side fails spectacularly and Burnham, along with Culber, Rhys, Airiam (and hey, Hannah Cheeseman’s back!), and Nilsson, stage a coup, the Kelpien slaves are fighting back alongside Georgiou, Tilly, and Owosekun.
Georgiou and Burnham wind up killing each other, but it’s enough to show the Guardian that the emperor is redeemable. That she’s worthy of a second chance.
I’m not entirely sure I see it. I mean, yeah, she’s not as nasty a dictator as she was before, but she’s still a nasty dictator who orders the death of Burnham and Lorca’s coconspirators by Burnham to prove her loyalty, culminating in her stabbing Detmer right in front of Georgiou. Her method of trying to get mirror Burnham to be more like prime Burnham is to torture her.
Plus, of course, none of this works, and she’s the victim of a coup.
Still, progress is a process, as it were, and she’s certainly better than she was before. (The speech she gives to mirror Saru about his potential is particularly heartfelt.) And it gets Georgiou sent back to the twenty-third century to have her own spinoff. Yay her. I will miss Michelle Yeoh on this show, but I won’t really miss the emperor.
Buy the Book
Remote Control
Once that’s done with, we get to see what’s happening on Discovery. Reno returns for the first time in several episodes, and it turns out that she’s been refitting various bits of the ship with thirty-second-century tech. The weird part is that Stamets didn’t know what she was doing, which is—not good? Shouldn’t he be keeping track? In any case, it’s good to see her back, as she gets the best lines, as usual. Oh, and she likes black licorice, which automatically makes her fabulous. (Black licorice is the best.)
But the really cool bit is Booker using the Emerald Chain tech that he uses as a courier to help improve Discovery’s sensors so they can read the Kelpien distress signal they picked up at the top of last week. It’s a nice little touch that shows how Starfleet’s post-Burn isolationism isn’t really a good thing. Having Booker as a civilian advisor and helper shows how they can cooperate with non-Federation folk instead of keeping them at arms’ length.
The episode ends with the crew toasting Georgiou in an Irish wake. Everyone’s a lot nicer to her than she deserves, but they’re treating her as if she’s dead. (And if she’s gone back into the past, she is dead, and has been for eight centuries or so.) It’s a nice sendoff, but, again, it feels a bit too manipulative.
And I really have a problem with Burnham insisting that it’s Emperor Georgiou whom she loves and cares about, because that’s utter nonsense. This has always been about Burnham’s guilt over getting Captain Georgiou killed. And, truly, it’s been about the spectacular tactical error made three years ago casting an absolutely brilliant actor who had amazing chemistry with the lead as the fridged captain in the pilot, and realizing that killing her was one of many dumb moves made in the early days of the show. Looking back at “The Vulcan Hello” and “The Battle at the Binary Stars” (not to mention reading some of the tie-in fiction like David Mack’s Desperate Hours and James Swallow’s Fear Itself), I keep coming back to the notion that the adventures of Georgiou, Burnham, and Saru on the U.S.S. Shenzhou would have been a much better show than what Discovery was in its first season.
So, after contriving to bring Georgiou back by having Burnham ameliorate her guilt by saving her evil twin, they then contrive to get her off the show so Yeoh can get a spinoff. Which won’t be the adventures of Captain Georgiou on the Shenzhou like it should’ve been. Sigh.
I’m looking forward to next week getting back to the business of finding out how the Burn happened and the Emerald Chain and how Booker’s ingratiating himself to Discovery and Stamets and Reno snarking at each other and all that other stuff.
I will add that, as always, what elevates this show even on those occasions when the story lets them down is the acting. Yeoh magnificently plays a Georgiou whose newfound nurture is swimming upstream against the nature of her upbringing and job in a horrible timeline. Sonequa Martin-Green once again is brilliant as mirror Burnham, as she goes through days of torture, is seemingly broken, and then acts contrite only to be playing a long game against Georgiou. Doug Jones beautifully plays both mirror Saru’s joy at being treated like a person (not to mention his devastated happiness when Georgiou tells him the truth about the va’harai), and also Captain Saru’s mature, reasonable response to Admiral Vance’s challenge as to why he didn’t tell Vance right away about the Kelpien distress call. (Vance’s complaint is reasonable, but so is Saru’s response, and both Jones and Oded Fehr play it perfectly, as two professionals.) Mary Wiseman, Emily Coutts, and Wilson Cruz are especially good as their evil twins. And Guilfoyle is just brilliant.
Oh, and doing the credits upside down and in negative image was pretty damned awesome. Almost as good as Enterprise’s redone credits for “In a Mirror, Darkly.”
Keith R.A. DeCandido‘s 2021 output will start with the thriller Animal, a novel written with Dr. Munish K. Batra; continue with Feat of Clay, the second book in his urban fantasy series following 2019’s A Furnace Sealed; and also include the short stories “Unguarded” in the anthology Horns and Halos, edited by Danielle Ackley-McPhail & John L. French, and “In Earth and Sky and Sea Strange Things There Be” in Turning the Tied, edited by Jean Rabe & Robert Greenberger; with more still to be announced.
No, not really. I’ve always thought of Reno and Stamets as peers—she a generalist, he a specialist—who only work together in critical situations. Reno probably adopted her own not-very-good-at-acting teenager to mentor, and doesn’t have a lot of time for the spore chamber.
“Fridged.” This merely means “killed” now, right? Or maybe, “character I wish hadn’t been killed.” Because I’m pretty sure it originally meant a specific kind of throwaway character getting killed for a specific cheap reason. And that’s not what happened in Discovery’s first season.
And Austin @1: Yes. Hell yes. But mainly as Good & Plenties
Puff: I stretched the definition of “fridged” a bit here, but not the way you think, mainly because you’re defining it wrong. Fridging refers to the all-too-common phenomenon of killing a female character in order to give angst to a male character. Doesn’t have to be a throwaway character, in fact the comic book story that the term gets its name from was the killing of an established supporting character. But the only way I stretched it is that the character given angst is female in this case. But it reduces the character being killed to an extension of another character rather than being a character on her own.
So yeah, Captain Georgiou’s death was kinda-sorta fridging.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I thought this episode was pretty bad, honestly, and because it revolves around the Emperor and her shenanigans. I love Michelle Yeoh myself but I just can’t get behind this character and the obvious string-pulling by the writers being displayed on this show and taking up valuable time to lead right into her own spin-off. I had joked before on a forum, maybe even this one, that even though time travel was banned, that the Emperor could be kicked through the Guardian of Forever. I didn’t expect that to actually happen! But even though it did, I didn’t feel validated. I just found it silly and contrived. So the Emperor has changed MU history? Or was that just a test? Or both? Anyway, I was also disappointed by who didn’t show up. No Lorca? No Danby Conor? No Spock or Pike or Una? All of these cameos would have been fun. The toasting and fawning over the Emperor once she was gone was also undeserved and unbelievable to me. It all felt forced. Couldn’t there have been at least one dissenting voice that said, “good riddens!” The Guardian sending the Emperor back in time but not to her own universe was also very contrived. The MU is where she’s from and where she belongs. If she felt like she couldn’t go back to that specific time in her universe because she had changed too much then the Guardian could still have sent her to another era where she would feel more comfortable. Perhaps to the 24th century where Terrans are now more enlightened and fighting for their own freedom and she could put her cunning and fighting skills to good use. Finally, I don’t believe the Guardian said specifically that he was sending the Emperor back to the 23rd century, just that he was sending her back to a time when the MU and the PU were more closely aligned. I suppose it is very likely that she is being sent back to DSC Season One and Two era but there is no reason why she couldn’t also be sent to a time between Enterprise and Picard when Section 31 still exists (and allowing crossovers of characters from one of these series).
So at least all of the Georgiou stuff is out of the way and we can at last refocus on the Discovery and the 32nd century happenings. But ironically, I’m feeling a bit “burned” and disappointed with the trajectory of this season after really enjoying it at first. Aside from the bad detour with the MU, the main villain of Osyra and the Emerald Chain has been underwhelming, and while the mystery of what caused the Burn is intriguing, it also doesn’t seem very pressing. It appears it happened around 125 years ago or so. The status quo hasn’t changed since then. Dilithium isn’t still spontaneously blowing up. So while it is a legitimate mystery to be resolved, I don’t think it’s a very urgent matter when there are other things to be explored in the 32nd century and we only have a 13 episode season to do so. Here’s hoping the season perks up a bit for the last few remaining episodes.
I thought the negative/inverted credits were a quick and lazy way to do a “Mirror” title sequence, compared to ENT going to the trouble to cut a whole new sequence together, create new CGI, and everything. I was hoping to see DSC-title-style versions of Mirror Universe weapons and flags and so forth, but I just got regular Starfleet stuff upside-down. That doesn’t even work. Mirrors don’t flip things upside-down unless you put them on the floor.
Storywise, I mostly agree with Keith. It was fairly well-made, but I’m not convinced Georgiou’s redemption was truly earned. Her entire arc this season has just been snarking a lot about how clueless the Starfleet people were for not being as vicious as she is, so the revelation that she’s seen the light because of Starfleet’s example is lacking a foundation. And it was disgusting to see the wake where the crew praised this mass-murdering tyrant without acknowledging her crimes.
Aside from feeling manipulative to set up a spinoff, this was also very much a bottle show. It told this sweeping story about reforming the Empire and chasing down Lorca, but it was all contrived to take place on board Discovery with no new sets. That had the advantage of keeping things focused on Georgiou’s personal drama, which Yeoh handled beautifully, but you could really see the artifice of it.
As for the redefinition of the Guardian of Forever and its nature… I can buy it. If you think about it, it’s kind of implausible that such a super-advanced entity as the Guardian is just a big stone donut that only has a play button stuck on fast-forward. And I realized some years back (and had Agent Lucsly complain in one of my DTI novels) that it makes little sense for a “Guardian” to just blithely invite people to muck about with the thing it’s guarding. I like the idea that the limited way it presented itself to the crew in “City on the Edge” was actually a test, that they had to prove themselves before it gave them further permission. It implies that it had a way to fix things on its own if the travelers failed to do so. Or maybe nothing really gets erased at all — it just shunts people into alternate timelines to see if they can figure out how to get back to their own. That would make it easier to reconcile “Yesteryear,” as well as fitting better with real physics.
“The weird part is that Stamets didn’t know what she was doing, which is—not good? Shouldn’t he be keeping track?”
Not really. We tend to forget, but Stamets isn’t actually the chief engineer of Discovery. He’s only responsible for the spore drive. He’s not even a proper officer, but a civilian given a field commission to work on the spore drive. As for Reno, she’s a full commander, a step above Stamets in rank. If anything, she’s probably the chief engineer now.
@5,
And I realized some years back (and had Agent Lucsly complain in one of my DTI novels) that it makes little sense for a “Guardian” to just blithely invite people to muck about with the thing it’s guarding.
Yeah, that was actually always something that bothered me about “City”, so I remember being happy you addressed that in DTI.
I don’t mind the Guardian’s role in this two-parter. It’s such an iconic part of classic Trek and it helps tie together the two eras (and event ENT to an extent since I’ve always wondered if the Guardian had any role in the Temporal Cold War/War).
I was expecting Q but when the Guardian of Forever showed up I punched the air.
Looks like Linus will have to flirt with someone else.
Overall, the course correction of this season has been good. Only 3 eps to go.
Odd there’re no Short Treks yet, maybe at the end of the season?
I found this two-parter far too indulgent. It centred on Empress Georgiou, and I’ve never really bought into the redemption arc that the show clearly had planned out for her (and which reaches its apex here). I find her similar to Spike, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer – someone who would ordinarily oppose the protagonists, but who has become begrudgingly (and superficially) friendly to them only through circumstance. The difference here is that Spike killed and ate sentient beings because he was literally a soulless demon, and had to regain his soul to complete his redemption. Georgiou did all of that with human soul intact, and it doesn’t feel like her redemption has been earned in the same way. All of the good she did for the Discovery crew wasn’t because she liked them, but because it was self-preservation (getting Tilly and Saru out of a bind in order to get Discovery off the planet) – or self-indulgent (accompanying Burnham on her mission to rescue Booker). The only truly selfless acts we see her do are ones in these episodes; sparing Mirror Burnham and telling Mirror Saru how to survive the Vahar’ai.
To me it feels as tacked-on as Airiam’s backstory did last season. The bulk of Georgiou’s “changes” seem to have been written specifically for these episodes rather than arising organically over the course of the season. Like Christopher, I found the wake scene to be in awful taste. I also don’t buy that this Georgiou took the prime Georgiou’s place in Burnham’s heart so easily – Burnham was Georgiou’s first officer for years. It reminds me of Quentin Lance from Arrow and his attachment to Earth-2 Laurel, his dead daughter’s doppelganger, despite her also having been a murderous supervillain – simply because she looked exactly the same and the sentimental attachment was too much to get past. Burnham’s tearful farewell as Georgiou passes through the Guardian was just perplexing – I think if our Burnham could have met or seen Mirror Burnham, she might have understood Georgiou’s connection to her a lot better.
So this one left me a little underwhelmed. I kept waiting for a “that scene” in the mirror universe but it really stayed on the rails. You have aerialists in part one, but you can’t have an extended fight sequence with Michelle Yeoh showing off for a while? I know we got it in the bar on the ice planet but c’mon!!! It was like most Star Trek 2 parters in that the first half is the better of the two. I did like the guardian reveal with the voices mixed between Paul Guilfoyle and the original guardian voice. That was a nice touch.
As far as the test/aftermath goes I sort of figured that the guardian was testing if Georgiou had the capacity to change, not the success of it. So I expect to see some additional development of this point in the Section 31 series. She’s still baking so to speak. I don’t, however completely but Michael’s claim that mirror Phillipa was “her Phillipa” (that was a cringeworthy line that called back a Folgers ad “You’re my present”). I think I would have preferred if Michael had said it was for both iterations of her mentor. And I got the impression that the crew OTHER than Burnham and Saru know that she didn’t die, but rather than she was transported. I did however like that the wake was occurring. Of all the series, Disco is by far the most emotionally mature and I like that the crew interacts and exists as a small town for each other.
I am going to miss the chemistry Michelle Yeoh had with Doug Jones and SMG- the banter between them was always priceless (“I killed my mother” “No you didn’t”). I just hope Section 31 has a great scene partner for her in it.
@8/CNash: I don’t think Georgiou has become selfless, no, but she’s reached the same point as Mirror Spock before/after her (depending on what chronology you use) — recognizing that another way of life can bring her far more and be more sustainable in the long term, so that it’s in her selfish interest to try to create a more enlightened society.
And it’s interesting, by the way, that Georgiou’s reforms in this new alternate MU branching meet the same fate as Spock’s reforms in the, shall we say, “Prime” Mirror Universe — enemies including the Klingons take advantage of the MU lowering its guard and form an alliance to destroy it.
“I also don’t buy that this Georgiou took the prime Georgiou’s place in Burnham’s heart so easily”
I don’t think that’s what Burnham meant. Even she realized that “You’re my Georgiou” was easily misconstrued and tried to clarify it. She didn’t mean this Georgiou had replaced the other in her affections — just that she’d formed an attachment to this Georgiou based on their own relationship over the past two years, independently of and not in conflict with her prior attachment to the other Georgiou.
Sorry, no. Georgiou is a genocidal dictator. Some people deserve a second chance. She does not. But because Burnham took a shine to her, suddenly she’s forgiven for all the people she’s killed or had killed. But, Burnham apparently has redeemed the Empress so all is tickity boo.
Nope, don’t buy it for a second.
KIRK: Guardian. Can you change the speed at which yesterday passes?
GUARDIAN: I was made to offer the past in this manner. I cannot change.
So, the Guardian was lying. Interesting. Of course, this isn’t the first retcon of the Guardian. From Yesteryear:
SPOCK: I wish to visit the planet Vulcan, thirty years past, the month of Tasmeen. Location, near the city of ShirKahr.
GUARDIAN: The time and place are ready to receive you.
It’s almost as if the Guardian is just a time travel MacGuffin.
And it’s interesting, by the way, that Georgiou’s reforms in this new alternate MU branching meet the same fate as Spock’s reforms in the, shall we say, “Prime” Mirror Universe — enemies including the Klingons take advantage of the MU lowering its guard and form an alliance to destroy it.
Yeah, it was an interesting way of showing that even had Mirror Spock done things differently, the collapse of the Terran Empire would’ve still happened one way or the other (though I still love the twist that David Mack came up for his Mirror Spock novel Sorrows of Empire).
@krad: ” The weird part is that Stamets didn’t know what she was doing, which is—not good?”
Stamets was essentially a civilian researcher drafted into Starfleet for his Astromycology (gah!) expertise. He’s in charge of running the spore drive, which overlaps somewhat with Detmer’s piloting. Best I can recall, he’s never been identified as the Chief Engineer. We haven’t met such a person yet. Reno does not seem to report to him as a superior, hence partly explaining her snark and general smartassiness.
They are moving Stamets into more of an engineer role, including his mentoring of Adira. Maybe they’ll ultimately slot him into a chief engineer designation, if they haven’t by default yet.
I liked the transformation of the Home Depot standing door into the TOS Guardian, but with a swirly wormhole portal this time. He’s a showman.
Carl’s line about Saru saving many more: would that be more Kelpiens, or is it a more general statement? Did Carl create another timeline adjacent to the S1 Disc MU?
He said he was sending her back to a time when the two dimensions were still aligned. That could be just over 500 years in the past (per Cronenberg), just prior to Temporal War shenanigans. Maybe Carl recruited her to change what he/it went thru as a result of the various factions abusing the Guardian’s abilities as a time and space nexus/vortex. Kurtzman has said that no one has guessed the setting of Georgiou’s S31 show yet.
I liked the transformation of the Home Depot standing door into the TOS Guardian, but with a swirly wormhole portal this time. He’s a showman.
Yeah, it’s a nice balance between honoring Rolland Brooks’ design from “City on the Edge of Forever” while accounting for the budgetary and technical advances in the 50+ years since.
Mr. Galanter was very sweet to me when I told him how much I liked his wonderful TOS novel Crisis of Consciousness. If he was that nice to a random fan of his, he must have been truly amazing as a friend. I’m sorry for his passing.
@5/Christopher Bennet “Not really. We tend to forget, but Stamets isn’t actually the chief engineer of Discovery. He’s only responsible for the spore drive. He’s not even a proper officer, but a civilian given a field commission to work on the spore drive. As for Reno, she’s a full commander, a step above Stamets in rank. If anything, she’s probably the chief engineer now.”
Yes, the thing that still feels very odd to me when I think about “Discovery” is the way it’s handled its chief engineer and chief medical officer roles.
In the case of the Discovery’s chief engineer, they simply never have identified who that is. We have Staments and Reno who both do chief-engineer-things all the time, but still no one identified by that title (which is really strange for a Starfleet vessel). (Am I remembering correctly that at some point early on in season one there was a reference to “the chief engineer” but no name given? Or am I imagining that?)
As for the chief medical officer, I knew that Dr. Culber isn’t the chief medical officer (although I have seen some mistakenly identify him as such online). I honestly into just now somehow came to think that Dr. Pollard was the CMO, but I guess that’s not the case (from what I can see about her character online). When I was thinking that she was the chief medical officer, I found it odd that she’s rarely at any of the full officers gathering scenes like when Captain Saru hosted the senior officers to dinner or during the “wake” for Emperor Georgiou.
I really wish that they’d just go ahead and clarify this because 1) it just seems odd from a Star Trek standpoint not to know who the chief engineer or chief medical officer officially are, and 2) if there *are* others still filling those roles off screen, it’s way past the point of believability that we haven’t seen them yet interacting with the series leads like Saru, Burnham, Staments, and Culber, now that we are three seasons into the series (not to mention the time jump which has made the ship’s complement an even tighter community).
Conflicted by these two episodes. There’s nothing wrong with them except for the feeling that they were such a sidetrack from the rest of the season.
Funny enough, if these two (sans most of the plot advancing of the Burn) were part of Treks past episodic format, it would have felt right in line.
I wonder if this story would have worked better as some sort of post-script to Season 3. Like a “long” Short Trek if you catch my drift. Could have aired it during the hiatus and then it probably would have felt like a nice welcome “bonus.”
As Mr. Wheaton says on the accompanying Ready Room episode, “THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER!!”
I’ve never been happier to be wrong. Of course this isn’t the planet Kirk where met the Guardian, the Guardian is hiding! Nicely done. And that reveal! Oh, my Trekkie heart!
As much as I’ve enjoyed this Giorgiou story, I’m, well, glad it’s over.
I still haven’t given up on my dream of the Section 31 show being tied to TOS; Starfleet’s rogue agency skulking around the galaxy, cleaning up starship captains’ (*cough*Kirk*cough*) messes.
Still, gimme more of the 32(?)nd century. I’m ready, I’m excited.
I just saw a suggestion on another board that the S31 show might be set in the 24th-25th century, maybe tying into Bashir’s experience with them. I think that’s possible; Carl just said he was sending Georgiou to “a time” when the universes were more aligned, not specifically to her own time. Something contemporaneous with Picard might be interesting, allowing for possible crossovers (Patrick Stewart and Michelle Yeoh together? Bring it on!).
That would actually ease some of my misgivings about an S31 series. I’d rather not see S31 retconned even more heavily into the TOS era than it already has been, perhaps revealed to have played a key role in events we know from TOS, and perhaps continuing to be shown as an openly known intelligence organization rather than the obscure, ultra-secret conspiracy it was asserted to be in DS9. Heck, ideally I’d prefer an end to prequels altogether to minimize further continuity snarls, although I’m hopeful that Strange New Worlds‘ more episodic format will limit that by focusing on planet-of-the-week adventures rather than politics or too many continuity tie-ins.
Also, the Picard era is one where the Federation is already dealing with some ethical compromises and trying to recover itself, so maybe a show about S31 could fit into that as long as it’s a show that treats S31 as a problem to be addressed rather than a kewl sooper-sekrit dirty tricks agency to be celebrated.
@20,
I just saw a suggestion on another board that the S31 show might be set in the 24th-25th century, maybe tying into Bashir’s experience with them. I think that’s possible; Carl just said he was sending Georgiou to “a time” when the universes were more aligned, not specifically to her own time. Something contemporaneous with Picard might be interesting, allowing for possible crossovers (Patrick Stewart and Michelle Yeoh together? Bring it on!).
Interesting.
Yeah…yeah, that could work.
I agree trying to further retcon 31’s presence into the TOS era is more trouble than it’s worth. I think it definitely makes more sense to pick up the agency’s storyline in the era that it was originally introduced (i.e. TNG/DS9). Having 31 operate in the aftermath of the Dominion War and the Romulan Star Empire’s collapse would play into the show’s (presumed) themes.
In fact, I wonder if that’s why Alexander Siddig said this week he was interested in return to Trek during the CBS-era. Does he know something we don’t?
@20 “perhaps continuing to be shown as an openly known intelligence organization rather than the obscure, ultra-secret conspiracy it was asserted to be in DS9.
What’s a thematically satisfying take on an organization like Section 31 in a basically optimistic society like the Federation, anyway? What are the rules for it to follow? A distillation of all the darker elements purged from the Federation with a protagonist (like Georgiou?) desperately trying to do good, but often failing? Or an intelligence organization that’s deliberately takes in criminal elements but channels them into doing good by exploiting their baser natures (a la Leverage)?
I had idle thoughts of a group trying to reconstitute an intelligence organization, but arent nearly as good as the conspiracy theorists, but using them a cover to hide how good or weak they really are…..
krad@3: Alexandra deWitt made her debut in Green Lantern #48, and was killed in issue #54. So not really all that established: she was quite obviously created to die.
@19/Jason: “I still haven’t given up on my dream of the Section 31 show being tied to TOS; Starfleet’s rogue agency skulking around the galaxy, cleaning up starship captains’ […] messes.”
Sounds inefficient. Why not employ better starship captains instead?
“(*cough*Kirk*cough*)”
Ah, the Peter David view of Kirk.
@24/JanaJansen: I might have missed something over the years. What is “the Peter David view of Kirk”?
@25/Andrew: I’m sorry. That isn’t a standing expression, just something I call it in my head. Thirty years ago Peter David wrote a Star Trek comic where Kirk was charged with violations of Star Fleet regulations, and it turned out that some of his actions had unintended consequences. Specifically his destruction of the war computer in “A Taste of Armageddon” had led to a real war that devastated both planets. So a hopeful open ending was reinterpreted as a mess. It isn’t entirely fair that I call it after Peter David, because other writers took the same line – an earlier comic story has the Enterprise return to Gamma Trianguli VI to find a mess that Spock clears up by restoring Vaal. (I don’t like “The Apple” but that is still a downer ending.)
What I meant to say is that starship captains rarely created messes; that’s just a reinterpretation that was fashionable in tie-in fiction for a while.
@26/Jana: To be fair to Peter, the “Trial of James T. Kirk” storyline had witnesses testifying to both the good and bad consequences of Kirk’s intervention. Anan-7 was called as a prosecution witness and spoke of the devastating consequences to Eminiar and Vendikar, but Leonard James Akaar came in as a defense witness and spoke eloquently of the good Kirk had done on Capella. And in between them, Bela Oxmyx showed up and was more of an ambiguous witness; his testimony about what Kirk did on Iotia was embarrassing to Kirk, but Oxmyx saw Kirk’s intervention as beneficial for his people — and he gave back McCoy’s communicator untouched, nicely subverting the common fan speculations about how much the transtator could’ve disrupted Iotia.
So it came out as a net positive, and therefore I think you’re off base about “the Peter David view of Kirk.”
@27/Christopher: “So it came out as a net positive”
If you count episodes, or witnesses, but not if you count lives. Also, the Kirk from the TV show would have been devastated to learn that his actions had, albeit indirectly, destroyed two planets. The Kirk from the comic hardly flinched. Nobody did. It wasn’t treated as a humanitarian catastrophe, only as a charge to be rebutted.
Nice point about the communicator, though.
@28/Jana: It’s not about the in-story proportions of the thing, it’s about your unfair assertion that Peter portrayed Kirk in a purely negative light. He made a point of offering a balanced portrayal, not a character assassination.
@29/Christopher: I’d say he did portray him in a negative light, and not being horrified by the news from Eminiar is part of that. I’m not saying he did it intentionally.
@30/Jana: In that scene, Kirk’s defense attorney (Sam Cogley again) points out that Anan-7 was trying to murder Kirk and his crew, that the Eminians and Vendikans were responsible for their own violence, and Kirk did what he had to do in order to defend himself and his crew, something he had as much right to do as the Eminians had to defend themselves. So Anan’s attempt to paint Kirk as solely responsible for their suffering was exposed as hypocritical and self-serving. It was ultimately their own decision to fight, and they were wrong to blame Kirk for their own failure to take advantage of the opportunity for peace that he tried to offer them.
So it’s incredibly off-base and unfair to Peter to say that the story portrayed Kirk in a purely negative light. It wasn’t a mindlessly hagiographic portrayal, no. It had nuance and ambiguity. But that was entirely in keeping with how TOS itself portrayed Kirk and the difficult, ambiguous choices he had to wrestle with.
Meant to post this last week, but by the time I got here the comment thread was too long to read.
Something Burnham said to Georgiou a few episodes ago has stuck with me, that Georgiou sees vulnerability as a death sentence.
It made me realize; she’s not a sociopath, she’s an abuse victim. Everything about her is consistent with coming from a violently abusive background –the kind of constant contextual emotional and psychological abuse that gets into your brain and makes you think it’s normal. That it’s natural to be treated that way because that’s just how the world works (and anyone who says otherwise is naive or hopelessly out-of-touch).
You have to think that way to survive –to become every bit as harsh and unforgiving and cynical as your abusers. Any display of weakness, vulnerability, or sentimentality makes you a target. (And any failure to attack a target in front of you makes you a target as well.)
That’s why she took so well to Section 31 initially, because to her mind, that’s the only way the saccharine fantasyland of the Federation could actually exist –with the “adults” working in the background to keep the “domesticated” masses ignorant and happy. Except that by now she’s seen that’s not the case; as much as she performatively mocked them, she’s seen the strength and resolve they’re capable of, and what the Federation itself can achieve, even in its “fallen” 32nd Century state.
In a perfect world (one not in the midst of a losing war), Georgiou would have received immediate counselling and therapy, and probably would have ended up growing into one of the Federation’s most devoted True Believers (just as refugees often become the most dedicated patriots). Hell, now that Carl’s given her a sort of breakthrough, that might be the arc of her series –Section 31 as it should be; someone who knows first-hand what the universe would look like without the Federation’s ideals, and who will use any means to uphold them.
@3/krad & @23/David_Goldfarb: notably Ron Marz, who wrote Green Lantern for Kyle’s debut, said this about Alexandra DeWitt in a Newsarama interview last April:
He also acknowledges that he was not thinking about the larger context when he wrote the scene, and that fridging is a valid criticism.
@31/Christopher: Let me put this differently. I don’t want a hagiography. But I’d like to recognise the characters. TOS Kirk had an overgrown sense of responsibility and cared about others. He would have been horrified by the news from Eminiar. I like TOS Kirk; I don’t like Peter David’s Kirk. Thus, for me, it’s a negative portrayal.
Anyway, this discussion started because I rejected the idea that 23rd century starship captains habitually create messes. I think this idea originated in the 1980s and can be found in the comics of the time. I wouldn’t like to see it established on screen.
I keep coming back to the notion that the adventures of Georgiou, Burnham, and Saru on the U.S.S. Shenzhou would have been a much better show than what Discovery was in its first season.
That’s what I have been saying for three years. But then we wouldn’t have Burnham as the hinge of fate and the center around which the universe spins. We wouldn’t have had a big honking space war that devestated the Federation or Orc Klingons or Burnham’s not dead mother in a time travelling super suit or control and section 31. Hmmm, I could live with that!
@34/Jana: There’s a panel in the trial sequence that’s just Kirk sitting there stonily as he listens to Anan’s condemnation. I don’t interpret that as a lack of emotion. I interpret it as a grave silence as Kirk absorbs the magnitude of what he hears. He says nothing, does nothing, because there’s no response he can give that would make any difference. The fact that an entire panel is dedicated solely to his silent reaction is meant to show that it does have an impact on him.
Besides, he’s a military officer. He’s known for decades that the decisions he makes — the mistakes he makes — will cost lives. This is very, very far from the first time he’s had to face that reality. And it doesn’t mean that his decisions were wrong, given what he knew at the time. Part of his duty as a military commander is to accept that burden, and to live stoically with the consequences and keep on making such decisions.
Also, for what it’s worth, he was on trial. Any competent defense attorney will tell their client not to show any outward sign of guilt in response to accusations made against them. That could be read by the jury as an admission of guilt and harm the case for the defense. So stoic silence was exactly how he should have responded as a defendant in a courtroom, no matter what he felt on the inside. (Although the same principle was not followed a few pages later when Kirk showed embarrassment and dismay at Bela Oxmyx’s “glowing” testimonial. But there, Rule of Funny prevailed.)
Been thinking about the S31 series. The problem (or one of them, depending on your view of the whole concept of S31) is that every appearance of them in Ds9 has them in opposition of our protagonists. Who wants a whole series about villains? And we certainly don’t need Bashir/Sloane “ends justify the means” speeches every episode either.
How about this as a concept to make the series worthwhile?
The S31 series takes place in the Picard era timeline. Georgiou’s task is to infiltrate it to END the organization. Bring in crossover characters like Bashir, maybe even Garak, and we now have a driving point to the series that upholds Federation/Trek values. I would gladly tune in to see this era and this type of mission.
@35/Roxana: That’s my favourite alternate reality.
@36/Christopher: You’re more gracious than me.
I’m going to lean way out on a limb here and say that any criticism of Discovery that revolves around “man, there’s too much focus on that Michael Burnham” is inherently missing the point of Discovery: that this is her show, just like TOS was Kirk’s, TNG was Picard’s, etc etc. That’s been the point from S1E1. Although we’ve gotten development of other characters (Spock, Data, Saru, etc), we still have a main character here. And yeah, that means sometimes the show revolves around them. Shocking.
@39/Jason: I think one can recognize that this is Burnham’s show but it’s still valid criticism that there’s too much of her. After all, as you mentioned that TOS was Kirk’s and TNG belonged to Picard, yes, but yet the focus was also spread around more graciously. Especially in the TNG-era of Trek, you generally had the template of a different character being the focus each week’s episode, a Data episode, or a Tom Paris episode, or a Julian Bashir episode for example. Yes, the captain/main star had a presence in just about every episode and usually has the most focus episodes, but they also didn’t completely dominate a season much less every season. For the most part, Discovery has been like Michael every day all day. We get some good character moments with the other regulars but I still miss that template where one episode we can spend more time mainly on Stamets, and the next episode mainly on Saru, etc.
@40, yes, but we’re comparing a series with, at best, 13 episodes per season, and only in its third season, with series that had 20-26 episodes per season for seven years.
Given those constraints, I’m not sure we’ll see that many episodes centered on other people. (Georgiou is an exception, since they’re back dooring her into another series).
@41: Oh, I definitely get that consideration considering the lower episode count per season with this particular season, but I still lament the format. However, aside from the recent Georgiou two-parter, the second episode of the season didn’t have Burnham at all until a brief moment from the very last scene. It was a nice breather away from the character and showed that the other folk on Discovery could definitely carry an episode on their own such that Burnham wasn’t even missed IMHO.
@31 – Anan 7 wasn’t trying to murder Kirk & crew. He was trying to enforce the law of Eminiar. And Kirk was warned off beforehand but chose to follow the illegal orders of Ambassador Fox by invading Eminian space. Kirk, Fox and company were in Emenian space illegally and refusing to follow Emenian law.
If someone puts up a “Danger : Keep Out” sign, they don’t also have to station someone there to explain what the danger is. If the sign is legally posted, then the fault is on the trespassers if they get into trouble. This, of course, includes such things as a fence but you can’t do that in space.
@43. Fences and signs do not give one the right to kill trespassers. Those who trespass, though fools, learn nothing from being murdered under some backward “law.”
@39, Jason, I understand Michael is supposed to be our viewpoint character. I understand that the show centers on her. What bothers me is that whole universe in-story seems to do so too. She starts the big honking war and ends it. She saves the galaxy from red things that turn out to be her mother. In the alternate universe she’s right hand woman of the Emperor, and now she’s going to fix the future. Please!
the adventures of Georgiou, Burnham, and Saru on the U.S.S. Shenzhou would have been a much better show
After three seasons, this show is still a mess, with an amazing acting troupe moving throu bad scripts.
@45: Not to mention she was retconned into being the adopted daughter to Sarek and Spock’s brother. Planet Vulcan (now Ni’Var) holds her in very high regard. She is very important!
@44 – If you are entering another country (or planet or jurisdiction), you are placing yourself under their laws, especially if you are warned Not To Enter. Go illegally enter another country and see how “I think your laws are unjust so they don’t apply to me” works as a defense.
Now, imagine you have a personal code that says “I will not interfere in the affairs of others” and see how that makes you into a hypocrite.
If I, who personally opposes the death penalty, illegally crossed the border of the United States and attacked the government in an attempt to stop government sanctioned executions, I hardly think that I’d be able to mount a defense that would be accepted in a US court of law. Especially if my original intention of crossing the border was to force the government to give me land for my own, personal pet project such as a treaty port.
Now, imagine if I had more power than the US government and threatened to destroy every man, woman and child if I don’t get my way. And you think I’d be the good guy in that case?
Do you get Capt. Pike, the spin-off, etc., if Georgiou doesn’t die in Season 1?
@49: Sure, why not? Capt. Pike in his spin-off will remain in the 23rd century and a still alive Georgiou and the rest of the Discovery crew can still be sent forward to the 32nd century.
I’m gonna have to go back and re-listen to what Carl said. I took him to mean he was sending Georgiou back to when the prime and mirror universes (and I LOVE that he actually used the term “Mirror Universe”) were still ONE. As in, before the Mirror Universe and Prime Universe were two separate things. That would have to be at LEAST pre-1969 if the opening credits of In A Mirror, Darkly are considered canon. I was thinking it’d be cool to drop her into the early 21st century and have her cross paths with an elderly Roberta Lincoln, assuming Teri Garr were healthy enough and willing to do a cameo.
@51: Carl said he’d send Georgiou back to a time when both universes are still “aligned.” David Cronenberg’s character said there hadn’t been a single crossing between the universes in over 500 years as they started diverging some time after MU Georgiou jumped ahead into the future. Therefore, Carl is sending the Emperor back no sooner than the 27th century but I think more likely it’ll be anywhere between the mid-22nd – to early 25th centuries to play in the sandbox that’s most familiar to Star Trek audiences.
And in regards to Teri Garr participating in Star Trek in any way, shape, or form, I wouldn’t hold my breath. See Krad’s own rewatch of “Assignment: Earth” under Trivial Matters for more insight as to why.
@26JanaJansen: Thank you for the explanation. Also, my thanks to everyone – particularly ChristopherLBennett – for the spirited discussion afterward.
I actually remember those issues of the Star Trek comic by DC. It’s been over thirty years since I last read them. However, my recollection falls more toward Christopher’s view of the story than yours, although I can see both points. I saw Peter David’s story as a way to humanize the actions of the character – good and bad – and show the good captain as a man who made important decisions as a way of life.
David’s storyline has foundation in the events portrayed in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Part of Khan’s anger at Kirk is born of the fact that Kirk never came back to check on them, certainly an example of Kirk moving on from his decisions. Whether or not he should have checked on them is another spirited debate, I’m sure.
That said, I can also point to the scene in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier where Kirk is offered the chance to have his pain removed by Sybok. He rejects this outright, stating to McCoy:
In the oft-maligned movie, there are nuggets of gold. This is one of them. Kirk knows that he has made mistakes, he admits to them, and he uses the knowledge of his mistakes to (hopefully) make himself a better man.
I believe that Peter David got it right…and now I want to dig up those old issues again.
@53 – “
KIRK: To be brainwashed by this con man?
McCOY: I was wrong. This ‘con man’ took away my pain!
KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you’re a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can’t be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. “
Makes you wonder what Kirk would say about Spock “waving a magic wand” at the end of Requiem For Methuselah when Spock made him “Forget”. And how often did Spock do that? After Edith Keeler? Or Miramanee? Or his brother Sam?
Just how often did Spock mess with Kirk’s mind without any permission?
@53/Andrew: Thank you for your thoughtful reply!
Most of my anger at Peter David is for giving the hopeful antiwar message from “A Taste of Armageddon” such a grim twist. Some stories are meant to have open endings.
@53/Andrew: “David’s storyline has foundation in the events portrayed in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Part of Khan’s anger at Kirk is born of the fact that Kirk never came back to check on them, certainly an example of Kirk moving on from his decisions. Whether or not he should have checked on them is another spirited debate, I’m sure.”
That was Starfleet’s responsibility, not his. As we saw on a number of occasions in TOS, the Enterprise would leave a team behind to provide long-term assistance to a culture they’d liberated, or would advise Starfleet to send a team. Basically it’s the kind of follow-up work that Lower Decks is finally showing us after all these decades. Moving on is what he was supposed to do as the commander of a front-line starship pushing the frontier outward, because there was a whole Starfleet and Federation infrastructure behind him to do the follow-up work.
No doubt Kirk reported everything that happened in “Space Seed” to Starfleet Command, as he was obligated to do. If Khan and his people weren’t followed up on, that was Starfleet’s failure, not Kirk’s. Greg Cox tried to deal with this in his novel To Reign in Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh, explaining that Starfleet had decided to classify the existence of Khan’s people on Ceti Alpha V. So presumably they were the victims of excessive Starfleet secrecy.
@55/Jana: “Most of my anger at Peter David is for giving the hopeful antiwar message from “A Taste of Armageddon” such a grim twist. Some stories are meant to have open endings.”
Isn’t that contradictory, though? An open ending implies that it could go either way. You could just as easily say that “A Piece of the Action” and “Friday’s Child” had open endings, but Peter showed in the same issue that Kirk’s actions in those two cases turned out positively. I don’t understand why you’re so determined to cherry-pick the bad part and deny the existence of the good parts. I find that grossly unfair.
And are you just as mad at Mike Carlin for revealing that Gamma Trianguli VI went to hell after Kirk shut down Vaal? Hell, the Eminians were responsible for their own fate. Anan stated overtly that they did have several years of peace after Kirk left, but eventually they themselves resumed fighting — so it’s actually completely hypocritical for them to blame their own inability to keep the peace on Kirk, a cowardly evasion of their own responsibility for their own choices. But Carlin’s story does put the blame on Kirk, because the planet’s ecosystem fell apart without Vaal to maintain it.
@55/JanaJansen: You’re very welcome! Having the peace talks fail after “A Taste of Armageddon” is certainly a powerful take on the story. I imagine trying to balance the realities of episodic television with a fictional character’s biography could be damn difficult.
@54/kkozoriz: Well THIS is a fascinating take on that particular scene. I have always viewed that moment as one friend doing what he could to ease the pain of another. Also, I won’t speculate on possible other events since this is the only instance in canon of Spock “waving a magic wand” on Kirk’s emotions. However, I agree with your point. Kirk might not be a fan of that action if he was made aware of it.
@56/Christopher: I like the message that peace is worth taking a risk for. Having the peace talks fail negates that message.
(Having the peace talks succeed for sure, on the other hand, would have made it look less risky. It’s really best to leave a hopeful open ending alone. It was chosen for a reason.)
And yep, I’m also angry with Mike Carlin, but less so because “The Apple” wasn’t a good episode. Still, Spock’s “solution” – to reinstate Vaal – was terrible.
@57/Andrew: Yes, that’s true.
@58/Jana: On the other hand, the same issue showed that Kirk’s actions successfully achieved lasting peace on Iotia and Capella. So he’s 2 for 3. Again, your determination to cherry-pick only the negative side seems very strange. If you’re going to call him out on the negatives, it’s only fair and honest to acknowledge the positives as well.
@26 et al/JanaJansen: I have frequently heard that comic cited on these threads as “What Peter David said happened after ‘A Taste of Armageddon’”, often as evidence of what really happened and of how bad Kirk’s actions in that episode were, or of how Peter David viewed Captain Kirk. Now, I’ve never read that comic but I have read Peter David’s less-than-thirty year old novels The Rift and Worf’s First Adventure, both of which portray Kirk’s actions in that episode in a far less negative light.
In the first, set during the TOS movie era, Kirk is reunited with Ambassador Fox and remarks “I have a history of strong-arming to get my way, and one consequence of that history is that you survived Eminiar VII.” Fox makes no attempt to argue back or suggest that Kirk’s actions there are nothing to be proud of.
In the latter, during a Prime Directive discussion at the academy, one Professor Lynch brings up the incident in a discussion of Prime Directive violations and, when a cadet suggests Kirk’s decision was the wrong one, provocatively asks “You would have ordered your crew to die then? To voluntarily walk into disintegration chambers? What kind of cold-hearted commander would you have been? They might have mutinied! Did you consider that as they were shuffling off to their deaths?” At this point, Worf interrupts.
WORF: Captain Kirk’s actions were necessary, sir. Not right, nor wrong. Necessary.
…
LYNCH: Captain Kirk did have a choice.
WORF: No, sir. He did not, because one of the two choices would be tantamount to murdering his crew. No Starfleet officer – no man, if he is to call himself a man – would have made that dishonourable decision. That left him with one choice. And one choice, sir, is no choice.
Now, I realise that neither of those examples actually says that Eminiar and Vandikar didn’t wipe each other out after Kirk had left. And if you want to tie all the different licensed fiction together, you could say that they did, but the accepted point of view was that it wasn’t Kirk’s fault. But they do show that it’s not as simple as “Peter David thinks Kirk got it wrong in ‘A Taste of Armageddon’.” Maybe, as the original story seems to suggest, he thought that Kirk did the best he could and what the two planets did later was their responsibility. Maybe he thought better of it later on and decided to put a more positive slant on what happened. Or maybe he never actually considered that comic to be the One True Fate of the planets.
@59/Christopher: I have favourite episodes and favourite messages. I’m strange that way.
@60/cap-mjb: I like that, especially since it references the episode without resolving the open ending. Thank you!
@60/cap-mjb: It’s a mistake to see “A Taste of Armageddon” as a Prime Directive situation. The Eminians had declared their intention to kill the Enterprise crew and were firing on the ship. That was an act of war, and it’s absurd to think the PD forbids a crew from defending itself in wartime or doing everything in its power to defeat the enemy. Indeed, the first edition of the TNG writers’ bible clarified that the PD does have an exception for cases where the safety of the ship and crew are at stake, and both it and the TOS bible made an exception for cases where vital Federation interests were at stake.
@61/Jana: Personal bias is no excuse for distorting the facts. That just makes it worse.
@62/Christopher: No problem, it wasn’t supposed to be an excuse.
@62/CLB: Not giving a personal opinion of it (this time), just saying how it’s described in the novel.
LYNCH: Eminiar tried to warn off the Enterprise. They issued a Code Seven Ten, forbidding contact. Kirk ignored it – an infraction of the Prime Directive right there. His violation resulted in the theoretical demise of his ship and crew. And then he destroyed Eminiar’s way of life…an even more flagrant Prime Directive breach. Is that what you have done?
@62 and @64: Not sure that taking Prof. Lynch (ah, Tim!) at his words is the best interpretation…this is a professor interrogating a student, so giving an inaccurate analysis of the situation has pedagogical use.
@gwangrung: how do you say “Socratic method” in the original Klingon?
In practice, a professor can root out earnestness, even over-earnestness, in a student/cadet who hasn’t yet hit the front edge of experience and encounters with difficult situations. I like Worf’s pragmatism.
@@@@@ 62 – No, it was not an act of war. It was an attempt to enforce Emenian law. If you fly a military aircraft into American airspace even though you were told not to in the strongest possible terms, is it an act of war if the air force shoots you down? Was it an act of war when the Soviets show down Francis Gary Powers?
In regards to the Enterprise being under attack, they were able to move out of range and they did so. At that point, they were no longer in danger. In spite of that, Kirk still ordered Scotty to destroy the planet, eventually giving him only 10 minutes to receive an abort order.
In regards to the Prime Directive, it doesn’t matter if something is in the bible. If it’s not on the screen, it’s not part of the narrative.
And are we supposed to believe that out of an entire sector, the ONLY place was Eminiar VII? You can’t establish a base on a uninhabited planet or moon or build a space station? The only place you want to build your part facilities is the one system in the entire sector that specifically tells you to stay away?
You’re defending Imperialism at the end of a gun barrel Christopher. “Do what we want, enforce our law, not yours or we’ll Kill everyone on your planet. Yeah, really enlightened of the Federation.
And how can it not be a prime directive situation? It’s a fully internal matter unless someone ignores the warnings and enters the system anyway. They’re not leaving their system and attacking ships, the Valiant came to them.
Sounds like this thread got hijacked into a discussion about “A Taste of Armageddon.” ;o)
At least it’s not another Georgiou is Space Hitler rant.
@64/cap: I wasn’t directing my comment at you personally, but at the more general tendency people have to read “Armageddon” as a Prime Directive issue.
I kept imagining the version of Giorgiou who’s an actual Nazi, from a Hitler-wins alternate history or whatever. Giving a Seig-heil farewell to Michael and then getting toasted by the whole cast sounds outrageous, but in this fictional setting the Empire is just as bad.
I’m just here to pay my respects to Dave Galanter. If Tor.com paid him a tribute by posting a book review or something, I think that’d be lovely.
@57: Also, if there was anytime where Kirk needed his pain, it’s this one. Kirk was a horrible person in that episode. He needs to remember that, and what the consequences were, so that he can hopefully not be that pigheaded in the future.
My toast would’ve been, “To Our Evil Empress….she was still evil right? That’s what I thought.”
I liked the bits in these episodes that spoke to the culture of the Terran Empire. In the Terran Afterlife the people you kill in the battle that kills you are your servants. Someone executed still dies with honor.
@32/Cybersnark
It made me realize; she’s not a sociopath, she’s an abuse victim. Everything about her is consistent with coming from a violently abusive background –the kind of constant contextual emotional and psychological abuse that gets into your brain and makes you think it’s normal. That it’s natural to be treated that way because that’s just how the world works (and anyone who says otherwise is naive or hopelessly out-of-touch).
That’s exactly how I perceived Georgiou and all the Terran Empire characters really. From the original Mirror Mirror to the Disco Season 1 Mirror Universe episodes where Prime Burnham was sent into paranoia trying to keep up appearances, the thing that I got was that EVERYBODY in the Terran Empire is scared out of their wits and looking to create not a safe place, but a defensible position. They’re always looking for a place to stick the knife in your back and always trying to make sure you can’t get at their back. So I can’t hold Georgiou to account for being an evil dictator. She was just the most successful at surviving in the actual darkest timeline. And a fascinating bit, she was actually the most kind and ethical of those evil characters. Keep in mind that the entire reason Lorca rebelled against her was because she wasn’t actually racist and brutal enough for him. While we don’t know how long she was Emperor, presumably she was still the Emperor whose reign saw the birth of Mirror Spock and his entry into the Terran Starfleet.
So time among the Federation Starfleet and seeing their successes might actually have gotten through to her. But she remained cold and distant, she remained aloof because her entire….five plus decades of life were spent with that as a primary survival tool. Her entire life and her civilization were a prey or be preyed upon life situation. She became Apex Predator. And she would’ve been proud to die there. But Burnham saved her. And she adapted. But for all she adapted and grew she couldn’t just shift back into old evil empress mode, nor could she forget what she knew of the Prime Universe, or the Terran Empire’s fate. So her trying to find a better way when given a chance to do it all over again was consistent with what her experiences were.
Still it feels like there were basically a season’s worth of character interactions missing that would explain the rest of the crew being attached to her at all. With Saru, Burnham, and to a lesser extent Tilly, they were all challenged by her, so I can get why they got something out of the interactions, (and no Linus toast dafuq?) but Owo and Detmer having good things to say…I feel like I missed a cool episode.
The Guardian of Forever reveal, phenomenal, Mr. Guilfoyle knocked it out of the park, though it honestly felt like something out of Agents of Shield. As an STO player I also hope that they’ll use the visual style and fidelity here and finally put that original Guardian of Forever mission back into the game. I knew Carl wasn’t a Q though, the subtitles would’ve said Qarl.
As always Jet Reno shutting down Stamets is worth the price of admission every time. Book making himself useful however, very interesting. It reminds me of Kal from Far from Home. A true believer.
As for a Section 31 show. If it’s Georgiou destroying Section 31 like a laser does to cancer I’m all for it.
@The Peter David’s Kirk Conversation; One thing about “A Taste of Armageddon” that keeps getting left out is that the initial violation of Eminiar’s sovereignty, is under direct order from Ambassador Robert Fox. Kirk was initially going to respect Eminiar’s order to not enter their space. Kirk himself was forced into the situation and then put in the position where he had to defend himself and his crew. Then at the end of the episode FOX is left behind to be mediator.
The entire episode is Kirk and crew surviving Ambassador Fox’s decisions and extreme stubbornness to the point where they also have save Fox from a disintegration chamber. Then at the end, Fox volunteers to mediate the peace talks. If anything any catastrophic events after the episode are on the Ambassador, not the Captain.
I do like the idea behind the episode. By isolating themselves from the horrors of war, the Eminians had allowed themselves to be completely desensitized to the act of war, their civilizations continued while the war went on indefinitely and people became the casualties of a video game. That can say a lot in our time where wars occur solely on foreign soil and people die by remote controlled drone.
@77 – “One thing about “A Taste of Armageddon” that keeps getting left out is that the initial violation of Eminiar’s sovereignty, is under direct order from Ambassador Robert Fox. Kirk was initially going to respect Eminiar’s order to not enter their space. “
“I was only following orders” is not an acceptable defense.
UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it’s code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.
FOX: Is that supposed to mean something?
KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
As soon as Fox ordered Kirk to ignore the 710, the order was illegal and Kirk should have refused. Kirk meekly goes along with it though and as soon as the Eminians attempt to enforce the laws of their planet, Kirk reacts with a threat of planetary genocide. That alone should have gotten him drummed out of the service, if not a prison term. Kirk explaining Code 710 to Fox shows that he understood fully what the situation was.
Rule 916(d) of the Manual for Courts Martial says:
In the end, as predicted with the previous episodes, this two-parter was a waste of time, a shamelessly obvious way to get Georgiou in place for the S31 show. Beyond that, I am absolutely disgusted by the crew of Discovery being fond of and toasting to Emperor Georgiou, A GENOCIDAL TYRANT, reminiscing about her as if she was a crazy, politically incorrect aunt.
Even if some of them don’t know that she’s from the Mirror Universe (and I highly doubt it) and what she’s done, she treated everybody like SHIT, and should have been in the brig a long time ago. And Saru and Michael, who absolutely know, are served the worst by this. Michael says to her “You were my Georgiou.” WHAT?!?!?
I like this show, and I like Michelle Yeoh, but this is one or the lowest points of the franchise. It makes absolutely no sense at all. I understand that Georgiou tries to make changes in the Empire in her… vision quest? But there was no work during the season (and last season) to make the character a better person through her interaction with the Starfleet people. First, by being in S31, she doubled down on her awful character traits; and when in the 32nd century, she never actually showed any hints of getting better.
And I don’t believe for a minute she grew to respect Saru and other aliens, because there was not enough of that shown on screen. Every single scene she had with Saru was of her disrespecting him. Her speech to mirror Saru about his potential is tantamount to “you’re worthless like a cowardly creature, but you will get better”.
Plus, even if her crimes were in another universe, she doesn’t deserve to be free. She needs to pay for her crimes. This is just like Vader or Kylo Ren being magically redeemed by one good act… but without the good act, and without the mystical excuse of the dark side. She could have at least sacrificed herself to save a planet, or something like that, and then we learn she’s been transported through time. Including the Guardian of Forever as some anthropomorphized “judge of character” is bad fan service (I like good fan service, but this wasn’t it).
The episode, itself, wasn’t actually bad, but it was, again, a waste of time. Two episodes out of a 13-season episode wasted in something that is not relevant to the main plot. All that has happened with Georgiou, no matter how much we like Yeoh, could have been omitted from this season, and we wouldn’t have noticed. They should have left her in the 23rd century at the end of S2.
I did enjoy the short scene with Booker, Reno, Stamets, and Adira; as well as Saru standing up to the Admiral. But that was not enough in a show that is supposed to be about Discovery and her adventures in the 32nd century.
@5 – Chris: I thought the same about the credits.
@8 – CNash: And Spike’s road to “friendliness” and redemption was (at least I remember it like this) a drawn-out, incremental plot. It was earned in and out of story.
@9 – MikeKelm: We were talking about Buffy before, and when you said “SMG”, I wondered what Sarah Michelle Gellar had to do with Doug Jones and Michelle Yeoh. Although it wouldn’t surprised me if Doug Jones had played a demon on the Buffyverse. Oh wait, he did, he was one of the demons in Hush!
@17 – David Young: It’s not odd for a Starfleet ship, as they do have a chief engineer and CMO, just not on screen and as a main character. It’s odd for a Star Trek show, but that’s different.
@20 – Chris: If we can get Bashir back on TV, I’d love it.
@32 – Cybersnark: Moving past the “abuse victim” bit, because all characters in the mirror universe seem to be that (I can’t imagine very warm, caring upbringings in most households), giving a genocidal tyrant a tool or environment like S31 doesn’t seem like the wisest idea to have her redeem herself and fall in line with the Federation’s ideals.
@42 – garreth: If anything, this season has been more ensemble cast than the previous two.
@68 – garreth: Some regulars here will do that, one in particular likes to bring up that episode every other thread.
@69 – Sunspear: But she is.
@77 – Mr. D: I absolutely can fault Georgiou for being an evil dictator, because there are ways of surviving that don’t include being a genocidal tyrant, even in the mirror universe.
In a way, this episode serves as the ultimate indictment of the Mirror Universe, and very much a bookend for the original Mirror, Mirror episode. One that really challenges the way things work back there. In short, living in such a place is not healthy for long-term goals or anything else constructive. If anything, it’s impressive that there are still societies and people alive in this place. For all purposes, the Mirror denizens should have nuked themselves to oblivion long ago. A society built on violence, backstabbing and assassinating one another to achieve power – where everyone is a sociopath, with no hope for redemption – is a doomed one. If it weren’t for the convenient slave labor, it would have collapsed long ago.
In a way, Georgiou’s actions towards awakening the Mirror Kelpians may have sparked this inevitable collapse.
I really liked this resolution. It more or less closed the book on the Mirror Universe, it provided a new path for Georgiou, and as I predicted, it bookended her relationship with Michael Burnham. That extended goodbye scene went a long way in starting the healing process of Burnham’s ongoing guilt.
And for once, I got a prediction right (that doesn’t happen often for me). As I previously said, the Guardian of Forever was always more involved in matters of time travel and parallel universes, serving as a catalyst for exploring what ifs and character backstories, as in his previous appearances. The only time Q really did this was for Picard in Tapestry.
I find the episode’s editing to be a little jarring. Part 1 cut straight into the Mirror Universe halfway through, without callbacks to the ongoing events on Discovery. So, to have the other subplots suddenly reappear a week later after 30 consecutive minutes of extra Mirror Universe shenanigans was rather sudden and unexpected. Needless to say, part 2’s second half had me scrambling to recall the details of the Kelpien distress signal subplot. I get it that we were supposed to feel disoriented, since we’re meant to be seeing this through Georgiou’s eyes, but I can’t help but wonder if they should have edited the parallel plots between these two episodes differently.
Otherwise, I’m glad that the show took its time to resolve this lingering thread while still telling a captivating story about these two protagonists. And now, back to the Burn plot….
Also, I don’t mind the moral complications the episode puts forth by having Georgiou’s new way to be merely a slightly gentler variation of her ongoing fascism. As the Guardian put it, she had her hands tied the minute she walked through the portal. She was as much forced to be this way and act like it for her continued health and survival as she was the tyrant and oppressor and dictator of how things work back there. At least, she’s not enjoying it much anymore.
@79/MaGnUs: “This is just like Vader […] being magically redeemed by one good act”
If it was a good act and not just “Blood is thicker than water”. Who would you rather kill, your boss or your son?
Agree about the Guardian of Forever. Not every powerful entity has to hand out moral judgment.
“[…] there are ways of surviving that don’t include being a genocidal tyrant, even in the mirror universe.”
“You’re a man of integrity in both universes, Mister Spock.” And Marlena Moreau seemed a decent person too.
Ultimately, this whole Georgiou discussion boils down to is whether everybody is redeemable. Under standard Federation/Trek ideology, the answer is “Yes. Anybody can be redeemed.”
There are arguments to be made that DISCOVERY didn’t do the work to make the trip believable, which I can accept, but a of the discussion seems to be based on the premise that she is (and will remain) irredeemable. Not sure that’s compatible with Trek as a philosophy.
@83. gwangung: I’m coming around to accepting a redemption arc. You’re right that some of that work was done offscreen, like in the recent Georgiou novel “Die Standing.”
The people hanging on to the Space Hitler meme are overdoing it. Not only is it a facile, snarky meme, but it’s literally untrue. If anything, she’d be closer to a conqueror like Alexander the Great. As others have pointed out, Lorca rebelled because she wasn’t hardline enough, wasn’t racist or speciesist enough. Remember his cringy line about “Make the Empire Great Again”?
It does a true disservice to real world history and suffering to keep making this particular comparison so lightly.
Also agree that a person’s nature isn’t immutable. Maybe some make a conscious choice, or series of choices, to remain a horrible human being, but ultimately such people, both in real life and fiction, are profoundly uninteresting. One example: Michael Moorcock’s completely unchanging characters, like Colonel Pyat, another incarnation of the Eternal Champion.
If Georgio had stayed exactly the same, I’d say good riddance. Just demonstrating a capacity for change makes her interesting again.
@Sunspear: “The people hanging on to the Space Hitler meme are overdoing it. Not only is it a facile, snarky meme, but it’s literally untrue. If anything, she’d be closer to a conqueror like Alexander the Great.”
People like doing that. I once read a piece of tie-in fiction where Khan appeared as Space Hitler, even though “Space Seed” explicitly likens him to Napoleon and Alexander the Great.
I have some thoughts on the redemption theme, but they aren’t finished yet.
I’m not very versed in ancient Greek history, but are we sure Alexander is free of blame? Would he not be a horrible conqueror to the people whose lands he invaded?
And as for Georgiou, SHE ATE SENTIENT BEINGS. As if that wasn’t enough she made Qo’noS uninhabitable, subjugated the Betazoids, WIPED OUT Mintaka III.and bombarded the Talosians. So no, the Space Hitler analogy is not an exaggeration, much less “literally untrue” .
@86/MaGnUs: History has gone back and forth on Alexander the Great. For a long time, he was seen as a drunken, thuggish tyrant, but in 1948, a historian named W.W. Tarn published a reassessment of Alexander that was virtually hagiographic, painting him as a heroic, progressive figure who believed in the brotherhood of man and only conquered people to bring them together in a Federation-like utopia, which we were tragically deprived of by his early death. That rather simplistic glorification endured for generations and influenced most media portrayals of Alexander since then (including the unsold pilot where William Shatner played the role and Adam West played his right-hand man, as well as an unmade early Doctor Who serial that Big Finish made an excellent audio adaptation of).
Modern historiography takes a more balanced view, that Alexander was an ambiguous figure, tolerant and benevolent to those who submitted to his rule but brutal and ruthless to those who defied him.
Got a question related to the Guardian of Forever, I know its a slightly off topic I have a hunch this is the right place to ask.
Harlan Ellison who wrote the teleplay for TOS episode has books published as a graphic novel. I noticed there are two with different covers, one published in 1995, the other in 2015. Are they basically the same book?
The ISBNs are 9781631402067 and 9781565049642
Thanks in advance for anyone who can help. Was leaning towards buying the older version to save a few bucks.
@94/Gary7: The 1996 book from White Wolf Publishing is a prose work containing the original script and various commentaries upon it. The 2015 IDW volume is a graphic-novel adaptation of the script.