One of the struggles in screenwriting is sometimes referred to as the Act 3 problem: Act 1 introduces everything, Act 2 gets the plot moving, and Act 4 is the climax and conclusion. But when you’re working in a proscribed format—like a one-hour TV show or a ten-episode season that tells a single story—sometimes you’re stuck spinning your wheels in Act 3. For a serialized ten-episode season of a TV show, that third act usually comes around the sixth or seventh episode.
Behold, the episode called “Dominion,” episode seven of Picard’s serialized third season, in which we actually learn quite a bit, but in which annoyingly little actually happens.
Mind you, the episode starts out brilliantly. The opening scene with Seven talking to Tim Russ’ Captain Tuvok, was at least as happy-making a joyous surprise as seeing Michelle Forbes’ Commander Ro walking down Titan’s corridor. Russ is fantastic, sliding right into Tuvok’s voice and mannerisms like it’s 2001 again. Titan is trying to find someone they can trust who can help them expose the changeling conspiracy. Seven tries all manner of rhetorical tricks to expose the changeling. She mentions their kal-toh games, with Tuvok pointing out that she often beat his ass in that logic game. (The game was introduced in Voyager’s “Alter Ego,” and Seven was seen defeating Tuvok, sort of, in “The Omega Directive.” The mention of kal-toh also prompts a music cue of Voyager’s theme song.) But eventually, she catches him out on not remembering a mind-meld Tuvok did with her to stabilize her neural pathways (possibly a reference to the events of “Infinite Regress”).
Russ is great here, because as soon as the changeling is caught out in the lie, his entire face relaxes, and he goes from being a calm Vulcan to a smug changeling. It’s a bravura performance, a welcome return of a great character and a superb actor, and I’m sorry we only get him briefly.
After cutting off the communication with “Tuvok” before the changelings can trace their call, La Forge says, “We can’t keep doing this,” indicating that Tuvok is not the first ally they’ve spoken to who’s turned out to be a changeling. (Tellingly, they haven’t yet been able to reach Admiral Janeway. This after Ro said in “Imposters” that she hadn’t been able to get through to Janeway, either. I really think they’re setting up a Kate Mulgrew appearance in one of the final three episodes…)
Titan is hiding in the Chin’toka Scrapyard—a DS9 reference that relates to the changelings, as Chin’toka was a star system in Cardassian space that changed hands several times during the Dominion War. They’re running out of time before Frontier Day, which is the changelings’ endgame, possibly using Picard’s body to create a perfect impersonation of him giving his speech at Frontier Day. Worf and Musiker have gone off in La Sirena, ostensibly to verify that Riker has not been captured by Starfleet Security, but in reality to not have to pay Michael Dorn and Michelle Hurd for this episode. (While it’s not as bad as season two, which was a budget-saving exercise in search of a plot, the lack of extra money to spend on this season is really obvious in so many cases, though at least we’re spared a Gratuitous Ten-Forward Scene this week…) Jack is fed up with being a plot device and offers to exchange himself for Riker to the changelings. Ed Speleers is particularly impressive as Jack in this scene. I’m still not sold on the character, but Speleers is doing a superb job of playing him.
Picard won’t allow Jack to commit the self-sacrifice, but it does give the admiral an idea.
The next thing that happens is one of my favorite bits on a Trek show because it’s a clever use of misdirection and of starships’ ability to drop force fields. Titan lures Vadic to Chin’toka with a distress call from a Vulcan ship (probably a derelict in the junkyard with T’Veen providing the distress call). Vadic boards Titan with a bunch of her thugs, and they’re all led on a merry chase by Jack and Sidney, then trapped by force fields set up by Seven and La Forge. It’s a beautifully executed plan.
However, this does lead us to the rather tired trope of the bad guy in prison and providing plot-convenient exposition. It’s one that particularly infused the popular consciousness in 1991’s The Silence of the Lambs, with Agent Starling’s questioning of the imprisoned Hannibal Lecter, then really metastasized in 2012 with various heroes talking to the imprisoned Loki in Avengers. (Trek previously made use of the trope with Khan in Star Trek Into Darkness.) Here we get Vadic trapped in a force field and completely unconcerned as she’s being interrogated by Picard and Crusher, though, in the tradition of Sir Anthony Hopkins, Tom Hiddleston, and Benedict Cumberbatch, Amanda Plummer puts in her best performance as Vadic to date when she’s being questioned by the admiral and the doctor.
Vadic provides important information, though it’s not information I’m particularly thrilled to get. It was enough that there was a faction of changelings who were pissed about Section 31’s virus (which is constantly and mistakenly referred to as a Starfleet virus in this episode, though Vadic does rightly refute Picard’s claim that the Federation gave the Great Link the cure, when it was Odo who did that). But no, we’ve got to add to it and have these changelings be prisoners of war somehow taken by the allies during the Dominion War and brought to Daystrom Station where they were experimented on, and tortured, by a human scientist. But they eventually escaped, with Vadic taking on the same human form as the scientist who tortured her and her people.
I utterly despise this development, as it not only isn’t necessary, it’s yet another example of the Federation being shown, not to be the near-utopia that Gene Roddenberry envisioned, but a façade that hides the worst of humanity, which is the exact opposite of what Star Trek is supposed to be. The worst of humanity should be the isolated incidents, the bad apples, the exceptions.
I could even perhaps accept it as being an off-the-books Section 31 project—like all 31 projects, truthfully—but then we have Crusher and Picard, two of the most moral humans we’ve seen in the franchise, coming to the admittedly difficult decision that they have to execute Vadic. I find it especially hard to credit that the Jean-Luc Picard who was himself tortured at the hands of Gul Madred (TNG’s “Chain of Command, Part II”) would willingly kill a prisoner in his custody who had gone through something very similar.
One good thing that comes out of it is that Vadic provides the name of the operation—Project: Proteus—and Crusher and Picard are able to look it up in the Daystrom manifest. That, in turn, tells them of an isotope that is now in these super-duper changelings’ body chemistry (goo chemistry?), which will enable them to track the changelings.
Earlier in the episode, Crusher mentioned a potential moral dilemma: finding a way to track the changelings biologically is the sort of thing that can lead to genocide. And now they have that method—which, conveniently, is something that only these rebels-with-a-cause changelings have, and which is likely to be made use of for more than tracking.
To make matters worse, our heroes’ brilliant and successful plan to trap Vadic and her people is ruined by Lore.
Last week, we were both told and shown that the artificial lifeform that Altan Soong created was an amalgam of Data, Lore, B-4, Soong himself, and Lal. This week, for some reason, it’s not quite that. According to La Forge, B-4 and Soong are just memory files, there’s no mention at all of Lal, and both Lore’s and Data’s full personalities are in the positronic matrix, and they’re fighting for control the body that we’re just gonna call BS for the time being (for Brent Spiner, of course). Despite the fact that the majority of what’s in BS’s mind is Data, according to Soong (in a scene from “The Bounty” that we’re shown again in the “previously on” segment), Lore manages to wrest control of BS just as Picard and Crusher make their horrible decision—oh and when Sidney and Jack are trapped in a corridor by a force field that’s all that’s keeping several of Vadic’s thugs from killing them. Lore is of course able to take over the ship’s systems, er, somehow, and keep them just long enough for Vadic to escape and take over the bridge. Data doesn’t wrest control back—after a lot of emotional pleading by La Forge, which is, I gotta say, very well delivered by LeVar Burton, who’s doing some of his best work—until it’s too late. (It helps that the resistance to Vadic’s bridge takeover, led by Seven, is pretty inept. After an episode that had up until that point had excellent fight choreography—indeed, a season that has had such—it’s disappointing to watch the bridge crew stand around with their thumbs up their asses while the changelings take over.)
It’s the cheapest of writer’s tricks—and actor’s tricks, truly, as Spiner gets to flip back and forth between Data and Lore, which is obviously a lot of fun for him—by having our heroes’ work undermined by a plot contrivance. And it is such a contrivance, put there to delay the climax, because we’re only in episode seven and there are three more episodes to go. Gotta keep Act 3 going!
On top of that, while we do get the revelation as to why this batch of changelings are so pissed, we still have a lot of unanswered questions. BS informs us that the body of Picard that was taken has some anomalies, which put the Irumodic Syndrome diagnosis in question. And if it’s in question for Picard, it might also be so for his son.
Adding fuel to that particular fire is Jack’s suddenly developing telepathic skills. He hears Sidney’s thoughts—and uses that psionic eavesdropping to help himself flirt with her—and later, after the force fields have gone down, he psychically manipulates her. Somehow, Jack links their minds so that every move he makes, she makes, which makes her a much better fighter, able to take Vadic’s thugs down.
The episode ends, maddeningly, with Vadic telling Jack it’s about time he finds out who he really is. And earlier, Vadic came out and told Crusher that she doesn’t know what he really is, either, which is a neat trick for the guy’s mother who’s been on the run with him all his life…
Buy the Book
Some Desperate Glory
There are good aspects to this episode beyond Tim Russ’ appearance. Shaw remains delightful, though his continued insistence on referring to Seven as “Hansen” (in the same scene in which someone whom he thinks is another captain, and one with several decades’ more experience in Starfleet than he, refers to her as “Seven”) rankles. I particularly like when the force field plan works and he stares at the monitor and says, “Holy shit, we got her.”
And in general this season is doing something that I always wanted the shows to do more of (and which the tie-in fiction has done routinely): treat this like one big universe. Throughout the first wave of spinoffs, it felt like there was a gauze curtain between the shows, only occasionally peeking through with a guest star here or a plot point there. TNG was TNG, DS9 was DS9, Voyager was Voyager, and Enterprise was Enterprise. The latter two were separated from the others by space and time, respectively, at least, so it made more sense. But it was just annoying that there weren’t more casual references to other parts of the universe, like a Sovereign-class ship or two among the fleets of the Dominion War, or more overt references to Worf’s life on Deep Space 9 in the TNG movies, or more than just oblique references to the events of DS9 on Voyager after “Pathfinder.”
The Secret Hideout shows in general have been better about this, and this season of Picard has particularly been good about embracing the entirety of the Trek universe, in particular all the twenty-fourth century shows. Besides being a TNG reunion, there are heavy elements of Voyager in the opening scene, and the events of DS9’s sixth and seventh seasons greatly inform Vadic’s info-dump. This episode especially feels like it inhabits the Trek universe, not just the TNG/Picard piece of it.
I just wish more happened in it, and that what did happen didn’t really really annoy me…
Keith R.A. DeCandido has written the character of Tuvok in the novels The Brave and the Bold Book 2 and Q & A, and also wrote the Mirror Universe version of Tuvok in the short novel The Mirror-Scaled Serpent in Mirror Universe: Obsidian Alliances.
Once again, Levar Burton makes me retroactively think that it’s criminal that Geordi was mainly used for technobabble exposition on TNG, because damn; I can’t remember when he’s ever gotten to have a big emotional moment like that before.
Meanwhile, I still can’t be arsed to care about Jack, and I’m really hoping that they’re not building towards the reveal that Picard is some kind of miraculous Chosen One with magical space genetics, because they already did that with Sisko on Deep Space Nine and it was silly there, too. Someone online mentioned the possibility that it’s some kind of lingering Borg thing, and I think that I would like that a great deal more.
Vadic’s origin story is as un-Star Trek as anything that Picard has done, but I also think that it’s a logical outgrowth of the Section 31 plot on DS9: of course 31 would have needed to use Changeling test subjects for their bioweapon. I’m also really hoping that Picard and Crusher deciding to execute Vadic is part of some larger ploy, because that seems humongously out of character for both of them.
Finally, I really hope that they give poor Marina Sirtis a hell of a lot to do in the last three episodes, because this is getting silly.
Hmm, I thought this was actually a pretty good one, the most satisfying episode of the season so far. Vadic finally becomes something more than the cackling cartoon character she’s been up to now, but that doesn’t really make her portrayal in earlier episodes any better in retrospect. Apparently Section 31 (I assume) must have captured some Changelings during the war, though I’m not sure that’s consistent with DS9, and did evil experiments that mutated them, making them vengeful against Starfleet. It’s a plausible story, and it makes sense of Vadic’s motives. It’s a good idea to show that the harm Section 31 did during the war still resonates decades later, which is usually the way with evil acts supposedly in the name of national defense.
Although it seems that the weird floaty head giving Vadic orders is something other than a Changeling, since I think they referred to the Changelings as “your kind” or words to that effect. So Vadic isn’t just pursuing personal vengeance, but is working for someone else.
The climax was well-constructed, creating a situation that allowed Geordi a dramatic scene with Data/Lore, and also bringing whatever’s going on with Jack and Sidney to a head in an effective way. Although I thought the Soong hologram said last week that Lal’s memories were included in the new “golem,” but Geordi said it was only Data’s and Lore’s personalities plus the memories of Soong and B-4.
The Tuvok cameo was a surprise, though undermined by him turning out to be a Changeling. And the way it was written didn’t quite make sense. Seven said “only Tuvok knew we played kal-toh,” but just a minute earlier, Seven had been the one who prompted Tuvok by mentioning their games of kal-toh. Fake-Tuvok only added that Seven often beat him, which apparently was correct, but it wasn’t what Seven said in the later line. So that dialogue could’ve used some polishing.
Disappointing that we didn’t see Deanna at all after her cliffhanger appearance last week. We only saw Riker as a brief Changeling imposture, and Worf and Raffi were gone too. I guess it’ll still be a while before we see everyone really reunited.
“Section 31’s virus (which is constantly and mistakenly referred to as a Starfleet virus in this episode…)”
Well, Section 31 is a cabal of Starfleet personnel, so it’s technically correct. And its victims wouldn’t be likely to perceive the distinction. After all, Starfleet Command tolerated Section 31’s actions in the war and refused to deliver the cure. Vadic was right about that. So it is kind of hypocritical for others in Starfleet to say “Hey, that wasn’t us.”
KRAD I have to admit I had the complete opposite reaction to vadic’s backstory. while it’s annoying they call it a “starfleet” virus and not a section 31 virus i rather think that’s a distinction of convenience since we know S31 has worked with and been tolerated or even embraced by some elements of starfleet (admiral ross in Inter Arma Enim Silen Leges for example). The fact is Section 31 did this, the federation DIDN’T opt to give them the cure, and frankly that sin SHOULD haunt them. I am *hopeful* that despite his and Beverly’s moment of desperation (which i agree was bad) this ends with Picard finding the compassion to admit this was truly wrong what was done to Vadic and Co and find a peaceful solution, while also forcing Starfleet confront the S31 problem, admit they can’t just pretend it’s not them doing it when they do have blood on their hands, and eradicate them for good.
First, I really hope we learn about Tuvok’s fate by the time the season ends. They can’t just leave us hanging like that!
And, OMG, Shaw!! I thought for sure he was dead at the end. The fact that he’s still alive gives me hope because if he was supposed to die from his injuries, they would’ve done it now to make it a poignant moment. I really hope I’m right. He needs to survive the season!
As for Shaw still calling Seven “Hansen”, I firmly believe that, if he survives, there will be a moment where he actively chooses to call her Seven. If he would just randomly do it now, it’d rob us of that moment.
I so do not care about Lore. He was used enough on TNG and he was a great villain. I just have no interest in him now.
So, at the same time Section 31 was developing a virus to eliminate the changelings, they were also experimenting to create perfect spies. Wow. The sad part is if Bashir had had more time to rummage in Sloan’s head during “Extreme Measures” he would’ve found out about Project Proteus.
Still no clue about Jack Crusher and Vadic’s hints worry me. Is he even human? Is this not the real Jack Crusher?
:Sigh: I was hoping for Deanna his week. Well, next week I’m guessing.
This was an amazing episode. It’s going to be a LONG Week!
Wondering whether the “scrapyard” actually references the debris of the Federation/Allied fleet destroyed there in the disastrous Second Battle of Chintoka?
1) Whether or not Section 31 is or is not actually equivalent to Starfleet is one of the great ambiguities left behind by DS9. A tidy arrangement, wouldn’t you say? And in this story, Worf may know something we do not….
2) Starfleet can be credited with delivering the cure in the sense that Sisko trusted Odo to beam down and end the war, and Kira (acting with a Starfleet commission) trusted Odo to link once again with the Female Changeling despite Garak’s misgivings.
I thought this was much better than last week’s adventures in shoehorned references. See, it’s so much more satisfying when it feels natural to the story. Case in point, what a delight to see “Tuvok” again, if only for a couple of minutes. But of course Seven would reach out to him. It makes sense. What also makes sense: Janeway. I have no doubt now we’re going to see her, and I’m looking forward to it. Coffee, anyone?
As for the rest, well, it was about as cliched as it gets, but I enjoyed it. I’m always a sucker for these scenes of running through corridors and using force field traps. And Amanda Plummer and Brent Spiner were delightfully hammy. My only real disappointment was no Troi and Riker — er, the real Riker — this week.
I’m not going to begrudge Tim Russ his guest spot, but I’m finding it infuriating that in a season focused on the Dominion, we’ve had twice as many Voyager characters show up as DS9 (and counting Worf as a DS9 character comes with a big asterisk). I know the DS9 cast has had some major deaths, and Avery Brooks coming back would be almost as big a coup as Patrick Stewart doing Picard in the first place, but Armin Shimerman and Andy Robinson would surely be down for a guest spot, and they could’ve easily fit in to Worf’s investigation.
I did like that both Vadic and Picard were sharing cherry-picked histories of what “actually” happened during the war. Picard is wrong in claiming that the Federation shared the cure and Vadic is wrong in claiming that it was a Changeling (implicitly Odo), rather than Dr. Bashir, who stole it. They’re both trying to make themselves look good or the other side look evil.
@2 / CLB:
Although it seems that the weird floaty head giving Vadic orders is something other than a Changeling, since I think they referred to the Changelings as “your kind” or words to that effect. So Vadic isn’t just pursuing personal vengeance, but is working for someone else.
I mean, it makes sense.
This isn’t the original infiltration during the Federation-Dominion Cold War again. By breaking off from the Link and being declared renegades, Vadic’s faction would’ve been cut off from the vast Dominion resources back in the Gamma Quadrant. Cardassia had also been glassed and they’d lost the Dominion’s foothold in the Alpha Quadrant, too.
As much as they hate the Solids, they’d still have needed allies and contacts in the Alpha Quadrant to acquire resources execute their long game. It’s no unlike Harry Potter when Voldemort had to accept the ‘reformed’ Death Eaters like Lucius Malfoy back into the fold. As Snape points out, yes, their boss was pissed his lieutenants went AWOL…but he had to be pragmatic and forgive the unfaithful or else the Death Eaters would’ve been operating with a skeleton crew.
So, if that’s what we’re seeing here, then the question becomes: Who or what they did Vadic and her crew strike a bargain with?
Who could have the power to terrify and control a Changeling and the grudge and determination to burn the UFP and Starfleet to the ground?
And Levar Burton again shows that he was criminally underused in TNG…
I was good with everything until we got to the part where Lore took over the ship in a convenient thing. Why he was plugged in so Geordi could keep working while they were doing the whole trap is beyond me. This seems like a good time to batten down the hatches and maybe have the genius engineer/legend participate. The trope of computer systems can be hacked easily is tiresome in Trek. We also have inconsistencies with internal sensors which way back in Datalore could track everyone but now can’t track Vadics crew until crusher figures out how to track them at which point they do virtually nothing. I don’t know, beaming the boarders into a brig or deep space seem like a good idea here. Instead it watches as they get on a turbo lift upon which time the crew continues to do nothing and surrender quickly. No one can shout to lock out command from the bridge (which we saw in Brothers).
Then there’s the recurring problem of it turns out the Federation is really assholes because they let Section 31 do whatever they want. Seriously there better be one hell of a streak of successes somewhere (maybe in the upcoming series) because their track record sucks. Homicidal supercomputer wants to kill everyone? Did that. Genocide. That too. Now apparently torture and illegal experimenting. I was ok when DS9 revealed that the Federation wasn’t quite the utopia it claimed it was but now you’re just flipping everything on its head.
Beverly also seemed off- for a show that actually does incorporate other series in, they have her throw out the “I took an oath to do no harm” libs hoping we wouldn’t remember she blew up a ship of Borg back when Lore had corrupted them in Descent part 2. Also what’s with the “lose another son” nonsense? Wesley isn’t dead he’s a traveler of both time and space.
I think Keith is right… we’re deliberately spinning our wheels to make episode 10 and using the time to drop in as many nostalgia moments as possible Todays episode was 1) Lore Evil (got it), 2) Changelings are good at taking over the ship and giving long explanations bc the Federation actually sucks and 3) Jack has something weird going on- I’m guessing pah wraith purely on the glowing red eye thing
It’s si frustrating that we get amazing performances by Burton, Sooner and Frakes and it’s wasted on just going nowhere
Finally we got the scene that should have been in season 1. Geordi grieving Data. Being involved. This entire episode was worth it right there.
@00 / KRAD:
While it’s not as bad as season two, which was a budget-saving exercise in search of a plot, the lack of extra money to spend on this season is really obvious in so many cases, though at least we’re spared a Gratuitous Ten-Forward Scene this week
The Titan Observation Lounge is picking up the slack; the Ready Room episode confirms it doubled as Tuvok’s office (much as it doubled as Geordi’s office last week).
Once again, this season is turning out better than it has any right to after the first two. Classic Trek themes of debating morality (even if they make bad choices), a good mix of answers mixed with new questions, and Tim Russ! LeVar Burton killing it!
I’m not clear on whether Vadic’s boss is actually that separate–could the reference to ‘your kind’ just be the main Great Link referring to the tortured/renegade changelings? Glad to have some depth to her and a reason for why she has the appearance she does.
Picard mentioning he was supposed to be involved in Frontier Day makes me think his old body has something to do with it, but I’m at a loss why they couldn’t just have a Changeling impersonate him…
Do we think Jack was actually controlling Sidney or just sharing his skills with her a la Sense8?
Regarding Jack’s whole deal, I think there’s a key in the part where Vadic says something along the lines of ‘imagine if you could feel what you do to each other’… Have the Changelings engineered something that gives other beings the connection of the Great Link+, building on Irumodic syndrome (or whatever it is) or Borg nanoprobes? I really hope Jack is just the carrier and not the only one who can do this telepathy thing.
It’d be almost a mirror of last season’s “a collective becoming nicer through exposure to humanity” where “humanity becomes nicer through exposure to a collective” though, you know, nonconsensually. Also an interesting way for the Changelings to ensure they don’t get attacked again, though I don’t know if it would qualify as the revenge that some of them seem to be going for.
You know, if they hadn’t been dropping hints about Irumodic Syndrome, I’d be thinking that maybe Jack got his superpowers from the same place Wesley did: his mother. She could have some latent mutation that turns her kids into superbeings. But no, it always has to be the father that the child takes after.
@11/davidjcochrane – Geordi not being involved in the first season was one of its big misses for me. Data was primarily his friend, not Picard’s. Hugh was primarily his friend, not Picard’s. The tie-in material went out of its way to establish that he was in charge of Utopia Planitia during the Romulan relief effort, and then he’s just nowhere in the actual story.
I’m calling it now: Jack Crusher is actually the son of Charles Xavier. :^)
While I haven’t exactly been clamoring for Sela, using a Picard duplicate on Founders Day is in line with her Spock hologram from “Unification”.
jaimebabb: As with most things related to Picard, story is dictated (and warped) by behind-the-scenes concerns. Sir Patrick Stewart didn’t want a TNG reunion, and was only willing to make an exception for Spiner, Frakes, and Sirtis to make brief appearances. It’s what the star wants. *shrug*
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@krad – “It was enough that there was a faction of changelings who were pissed about Section 31’s virus (which is constantly and mistakenly referred to as a Starfleet virus in this episode, though Vadic does rightly refute Picard’s claim that the Federation gave the Great Link the cure, when it was Odo who did that). “
Worf said, when they were on Daystrom Station that Section 31 is “Critical division of Starfleet Intelligence “. He also said that Starfleet created the virus, which makes sense as he just confirmed that S31 is an official, if not talked about, part of Starfleet. I’ll take Worf’s description of S31 over yours since he’s a “contractor” of them and it also neatly explains why Starfleet was never able to expose S31 because it was not some quasi-legal group. It was something created by Starfleet itself that held S31 at arms length to give them deniability while they did all the dirty things that SF didn’t want attached to their good name.
I would have much preferred that S31 had never been created but once it was established as having existed for hundreds of years, it’s really the only explanation as to how S31 managed to keep operating for centuries, from Enterprise all the way to the 31st century of Discovery.
Starfleet through S31 created the virus. The Federation refused to provide the cure to the Changelings. These are established facts.
Maybe now we can move away from the trope that every bad admiral or dirty operation was, in fact, Section 31 and not just Starfleet. Blaming some super secret shadow organization has become a convent lie that the Federation likes to tell itself.
I do find it interesting that the one thing most people appreciated from DS9 was “life isn’t black/white; there are shades of gray” storyteling.
Yet, Picard is showing us a Federation that isn’t all light–there is darkness (morally) and people are complaining about it.
Yes, it might go against Roddenberry’s vision but as was said in that one Deep space Nine ep (a quote that probably came from a poem), there can be no light without the darkness.
Note–this isn’t to say I approve of Section 31’s actions but I can understand them in a “desperate times call for desperate measures” perspective.
@14/ChristopherLBennett: When did Bev’s grandma first hook up with Sexy Ghost Alien?
@19/Mary To be fair about the Section 31 virus, Admiral Nechayev basically ordered Picard to do the same thing to the Borg if he ever got the chance again, under circumstances that were not completely different from those with the Dominion.
One minor typo towards the end….
and later, after the force fields have gone down, he physically manipulates her.
I think you’d mean PSYCHICALLY here.
@22: Updated, thanks!
@7 I’m quite certain that Matalas and co. would love to have some DS9 alumni return, but I think it’s probably hard to work the ones that are still acting into the current story. Seven calling Tuvok is a no-brainer in a situation like this. Hopefully when Worf and Raffi return he could provide us with another DS9 connection. I also expect we’ll see some familiar faces at Frontier Day, since the whole fleet is apparently going to be there.
More scattered thoughts:
I honestly didn’t have a problem with the way Picard and Crusher handled the situation, because they both acknowledged that it was new ground for them. I also thought it was interesting that, in spite of whatever Vadic’s been through and whatever hold Mr. Scary Head has over her, she still has the trademark Changeling arrogance. Telling Picard and Crusher that what Section 31 did to her was orders of magnitude worse than their invading the Alpha Quadrant with an aim to subjugate the entire galaxy is just… so them.
I’m still convinced that we’re going to learn that whatever is wrong with Jack is a consequence of Picard’s assimilation. In theory, the Borg nanoprobes would have found and corrected whatever defect in the pituitary gland creates Irumodic Syndrome; that makes me think that they must have caused the “defect.” Crusher said that the Borg were re-writing Picard’s DNA, maybe that also meant his reproductive DNA in a way that was untraceable at the time. Jack’s “abilities” and visions seem to be focused on making connections with other people; I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the first person we saw in one of his visions was Seven. Maybe Jack is being pushed to create a “collective.” Borg drones often have a red “eye” of sorts, which could explain why Jack’s turn red when he does something.
I wonder if we actually saw the full extent of Picard’s trap, because it seemed rather obvious to me. Before they set it, Picard mentioned that Raffi and Worf were on their way back; I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t wait for them before setting his plan in motion. They are very useful. I won’t be shocked if they secretly boarded the Shrike after Vadic and her crew left, and are searching for data on Vadic’s plan there while looking for Riker. I also won’t be surprised if they are unable to regain control of the Titan from Vadic, and take either the Shrike or La Sirena back to the Fleet Museum to get another ship that can help them save Starfleet on Frontier Day (Hangar Bay 12 is calling to us).
Based on the stupidity of having the ENTIRE fleet present for Frontier Day, they should rename it If You Want To Invade the Federation Day, Now’s Your Chance Day.
Seriously, do none of these people see a problem with this?
#25. Indeed, it’s like the US Navy pulling all its ships back home for Fleet Week. Couldn’t they just say it’s a large portion of the fleet? That would also be strategically silly but considerably less than the entire fleet.
Not only military patrols, the ships on long-distance surveying and scientific missions must be saying, ‘Ya gotta be kidding me. All the way back home for a parade?’
I missed this line until it was called attention to: “after the force fields have gone down, he psychically manipulates her.”
First off, the force fields hadn’t gone down, just been rearranged. The whole reason the psychic link was necessary was because there was a force field separating Jack from Sidney and her attacker, so he couldn’t reach the attacker himself. Second, I don’t think he was “manipulating” her. That’s an unfair and creepy interpretation that deprives Sidney of agency. It seemed to me, rather, that they were consensually working in tandem, that he was transmitting the moves to her so that she could feel how to do them herself in sync with him. She was following his lead, the Ginger to his Fred.
Basically, they were forming a Link of two people, which lends credence to the idea that Jack is connected to the Changelings somehow. Alternatively, they could be seen as forming a two-person collective, which lends credence to the Borg theory. Either way, it’s an equal partnership, not manipulation.
Christopher: you’re wrong, he was totally manipulating her, which is why she pulled her phaser on him when it was done.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@28/krad: No. During the battle, Sidney agreed to allow the link to save her own life, but afterward, she was wary of how he had that ability, and what he was. That’s why she drew on him. If he’d forced her as you’re implying, if he’d violated her like that, she wouldn’t have lowered the phaser anywhere near as easily.
I mean, we’ve seen plenty of scenes like that before, where someone in immediate peril allows someone to help them, but then draws a weapon and demands answers once the imminent threat has ended. It doesn’t mean they were forced, just that you grab any straw you can when your life is at stake, and wait until afterward to ask questions.
It was clear to me that she was voluntarily letting him transmit the moves to her. He was talking to her while they fought in tandem, telling her what moves to make. He wouldn’t have done that if he’d been coercively puppeteering her.
@25 one could argue that the insanely stupid bring all the ships home plan was done bc the changelings who have infiltrated the Federation ordered it to be so. (Also the insanely stupid idea of having them all networked together).
If this doesn’t end with a montage of exploding admirals a la kingsmen I’ll be hugely disappointed.
Also with glowing red eyes have we considered this may be a Cylon plot? The BSG reboot took place in the past. All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again. BSG did start by the colons infiltrating the colonies and destroying the entire human fleet. Has anyone called Ron Moore
I’m with CLB in assuming that it was Section 31 who experimented upon the changelings. They were the ones who created the virus, so it stands to reason that they gained the knowledge to do so by experimenting on changelings. I was less OK with Picard and Crusher seemingly deciding to execute Vadic. That seems very out of character. Are we supposed to think that their desire to protect their son is motivating them? I didn’t like it. I did like the scenes between LaForge and Lore, though. It may have been a plot contrivance to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but I always enjoy Spiner’s Lore (he certainly is “arch”) and I liked the fact that the show acknowledged that Data’s death affected more people than Picard, since LaForge was his best friend on the old show.
At any rate, I enjoyed this episode for the most part, though I was frustrated that it ended right before Vadic was going to spill the beans about what’s really going on with Jack, since the whole plot’s success is hinging on how satisfying that reveal is.
The glowing red eyes must be non-diegetic, or else Sidney would have noticed them.
It looks like Marina Sirtis really got the short end of this reunion…
Also, since I know Keith keeps track of the characters who have appeared on multiple series, Tuvok joins the “Three-Timers Club”, having appeared on Voyager, DS9, and now Picard.
@33/bgsu: Technically Tuvok is a four-timer, since he had an unvoiced cameo in Lower Decks as part of the team that exposed the frame-up of Captain Freeman. (Although it was Mirror Tuvok who appeared on DS9, so does that actually count?)
@33 Based on what I’ve heard, a lot of Marina Sirtis’s (apparently) backloaded appearance in this season is due simply to her availability. She moved back to London recently, I believe. But Terry Matalas and others have really hyped up her role, going so far as to call the last bits “Troi’s story” or something like that. I can see how her joining the rest of the group could shed a lot of light on what’s going on and solve a lot of problems. She could help Data drive Lore out, sense Changelings, detect the nature of Jack’s psychic connections, and maybe more. I want to see Deanna Troi in full superhero mode with her awesome empathic abilities.
00 / KRAD:
But it was just annoying that there weren’t more casual references to other parts of the universe, like a Sovereign-class ship or two among the fleets of the Dominion War, or more overt references to Worf’s life on Deep Space 9 in the TNG movies, or more than just oblique references to the events of DS9 on Voyager after “Pathfinder.”
1. I believe Berman had vetoed the appearance of the Sovereign-class outside of DS9. The idiot’s rationale was, IIRC, people would mistake it for the 1701-E and that it would somehow dilute the TNG movie brand.
(Yeah, I don’t get the “logic” there either.)
2. While I share the frustration, I’d argue that this one at least was a necessary evil.
The TNG films, more than the shows, had to appeal to the fans and to general audiences. General audiences weren’t following Worf’s relocation to DS9 or the Dominion War. I think Insurrection struck the best balance it could (though the lack of any mentions on Nemesis, well after DS9 had ended, drove me crazy too).
3. Given DS9 wasn’t exclusively on UPN and the different broadcast markets and how far behind or ahead they were, I assume not mentioning the Dominion War played into that.
(Of course, given how many stories have made the rounds about Berman being petty, I wonder if that was another factor).
@34/ChristopherLBennett: If Mirror-Tuvok doesn’t count, then neither does Changeling-Tuvok.
On the other hand, if you count them all, you can throw in Retroactive-Tuvok from TUC and give him the five-timer award.
@37/Sean: Tuvok was not in TUC. Tim Russ played a human Starfleet lieutenant in Generations, and people get that confused with Tuvok’s appearance in VGR: “Flashback.”
First thought: they better give Marina Sirtis a lot to do in the last three episodes or she’s been shafted!
I thought this was a middling, lesser episode of this season so far. I’m glad I didn’t stay up too late to watch it like I’ve usually been doing. It just seemed to drag and like the show was spinning in its heels. We got some info dumps and yet I feel like there wasn’t a whole lot of forward momentum in the plot. Jack Crusher just seems like a plot McGuffin and not like fully realized person. There were a bunch of lovely moments though like everything LeVar Burton was doing. It’s nice that there are writers that are actually writing favorable stuff for his character. Amanda Plummer got some good stuff too and finally some fleshing out of her character and motivation. I do find it fascinating that her handler isn’t even a Changeling itself and has its own nefarious motivation. The Jack/Sydney flirtation is cute. I guess Jack is basically some kind of superhero and now he’s got telepathic powers. I wonder if some alien somehow got into Beverly’s womb or something when she was pregnant with Jack. I liked the ethical debates between Beverly and Picard. I didn’t like how Starfleet and this supposed human utopia of the 24th century is all a facade and is conducting evil experiments. Seeing Tim Russ was nice and he basically got to play a different character since it wasn’t Tuvok. Hopefully the real Tuvok isn’t dead. So overall, this was a big ‘ol mixed bag for me. Was this the first episode without Ten Forward lol? Bring on Admiral Janeway! And hopefully she isn’t a Changeling too but just in hiding (maybe on the Protostar even haha).
@39 / Garreth:
And hopefully she isn’t a Changeling too but just in hiding
I was actually arguing about that on TV Tropes during “Imposters”.
My take was:
“With confirmation of a Changeling infiltration of Starfleet Command, it seems strange that neither Picard or Ro would consider the possibility that Janeway herself might’ve also been replaced (as opposed to just someone on her personal staff blocking Ro’s communications). But similarly to Worf’s unique personality, replacing Janeway would actually be extremely difficult.
“Janeway’s one of the most prolific officers in contemporary Starfleet thanks to the legacy of the Voyager’s odyssey through the Delta Quadrant (and the subsequent Protostar project). With Janeway under that much attention and scrutiny, replacing her and ensuring the Admiral remained “in character” without any slip ups would be extremely difficult and dangerous (especially as the renegades don’t have access to Dominion resources this time around compared to the original infiltration campaigns 30 years ago). Compromising a member of her staff instead is the more pragmatic and safer choice.”
I keep loving this show after my hate for the first two seasons. Reminds me of TNG and its first two seasons (to a far lesser degree compared to Picard, as there is a lot for me to like in those seasons). This show is not a hopeful, utopian, and episodic show like Lower Decks, Strange New Worlds and Prodigy. It is DS9 tone with the TNG cast. I love TNG the TV show (don’t like the films or seasons 1/2 of Picard) then TOS then Lower Decks. DS9 is not my Star Trek, even though I like it (mostly seasons 3-6), but it is not the journey though space to seek out new civilizations, etc. That I want. This show is like if TNG got good films (based on fan/critic consensus) similar to some of the TOS films instead of what we got.
Further Thoughts: Love the DataLore/La Forge stuff, love the final 10-15 minutes or so of the episode, the music I really enjoy.
-Kefka
Mannnnn this one dragged in the middle. The Act 3 problem is both the episode and the season here.
@27,28,29/Keith and CLB – Y’all appear to be using the definition of “manipulate” that has a negative connotation, as in being manipulative in a relationship. I just interpreted the original post’s use as with a neutral connotation, such as manipulating a keyboard or instrument. He mentally moved her body (and his own); that version of “manipulate” is totally valid.
@39/garreth: “I wonder if some alien somehow got into Beverly’s womb or something when she was pregnant with Jack.”
As I mentioned before, the fact that Beverly gave birth to Wesley Crusher the Traveler implies that Beverly herself has some kind of innate metahuman potential, with no need to bring any other influences into it. Of course, it could also have been Jack Crusher 1.0 who had that potential, or some combination of both their genomes. But it could’ve been her.
I’ve always found it strange that nobody ever showed any interest in examining that possibility. I pitched a novel to Pocket Books once that involved Beverly having concerns about her son with Picard (named Rene in the novels) potentially developing powers and leaving her like Wesley did, but it was rejected.
@41/kefka: “the music I really enjoy.”
I noticed that we have a new composer this week — Frederik Wiedmann, whose name I know mostly from DC Animation productions like Green Lantern: The Animated Series, Beware the Batman, and most of the DC Universe Animated Original Movies in the past decade, as well as Netflix’s The Dragon Prince. IMDb says he’s also doing episodes 9-10.
@41/MeredithP: “He mentally moved her body (and his own); that version of “manipulate” is totally valid.”
I still think that unfairly erases Sidney’s own agency. I didn’t see her as a mindless puppet there, but as an equal partner in the mental merger, sharing in his skill and muscle memory and enacting it along with him. He didn’t manipulate her, he guided her. As I said, they were more like dance partners, one leading and the other following. Both participants are active, not just the leading one.
It has to be pretty clear by now that the idea of infiltrating Frontier Day with a duplicate Picard-Jack Crusher entity is either a red herring or a ludicrous plot thread. The changelings can’t still want Jack for that because Picard is a wanted fugitive; he’d be arrested if he shows up. The changelings also never needed Picard’s body’s DNA to pass Starfleet security, because the current Picard is an android. (If his android form has pseudo-DNA good enough to pass security, then the changelings don’t need Jack, they need android-Picard.) Plus, as Shaw pointed out, Picard has no special authority; he’s only there to give a speech. If the changelings just need someone at the event, they already have plenty of capable shapeshifters.
I’m leaning toward some form of the forced-empathy plot as making the most sense. With the whole fleet gathered together, use Jack to inflict the shame of Project Proteus on all the active crewmembers who share his biology. (Though that still doesn’t make a lot of sense, since Jack is human and presumably most of Starfleet and the Federation are not.)
Like @krad, I also despair of this dark turn appended to the Federation, which largely goes against the spirit of TNG as encapsulated in Tasha Yar’s confrontation with Q in “Encounter at Farpoint” where she proclaims: “…I grew up on a world that allowed things like this court. And it was people like these that saved me from it. This so-called court should get down on its knees to what Starfleet is, what it represents.”
I will be sorely disappointed if The Next Generation era of Trek is bookended with dull thuggery.
@43/CLB – That’s certainly a possible interpretation, but I don’t think there was anything on the screen to support one way or another. A feminist interpretation, though, would include her decision to accept his help as agency, even if he did the specific choreography.
@34/ChristopherLBennett, I do not remember Tuvok appearing on LD, but I’m hesitant to include an unvoiced cartoon appearance since the actor technically had no involvement. I do count his appearance on DS9, but I’m also the one who counts Riker’s appearance on DS9 even though it was technically Thomas Riker.
(Holds Forehead) I’m gonna curse here. Goddammit Section 31 you morons.
Section 31 being a Deniable Operations Division of Starfleet Intelligence would be logical on it’s own. But they’ve also consistently from the Enterprise era described themselves to Starfleet Officers as separate. When it would’ve been much simpler to say they’re legit and operating with authority. My main problem with Section 31 aside from their total lack of ethics and their existence being a blight on the franchise, is that they never seem to answer to anyone. If Section 31 is actually a part of Starfleet Intelligence then they should be getting REAMED regularly for their catastrophic failures. They also never seem to learn from anything. Getting back to my idiocy induced headache, while they succeeded in upgrading these Changelings into super infiltrator models, how the hell did they think they were going to control them? The only thing they did is upgrade an enemy and fill them with terrible resolve.
Levar Burton was on fire, he’s acting like he’s gunning for his Best Guest Star Emmy. I echo all the remarks reminding people that nobody was closer to and loved Data more than Geordi. They were boys, they were running partners, they were brothers. But they did scare the crap out of me. I thought they were about to kill of Sydney and justify all of Geordi’s fears. I’d have been hot about that. I’m also glad that Alandra left the room before Lore closed the door, as having Geordi’s other daughter trapped with a known murder-bot wouldn’t have been good either.
As for Lore himself…Lore’s problem is that he is one emotion. He only hates humans. He doesn’t form different relationships with different people or appreciate. He loved Data because he was an equal, and if he could twist him then Lore would finally no longer be alone, but he didn’t actually love Data or want him to grow and thrive as himself. Which is why he has no problem overwriting Data and killing his friends. I get why Altan kept him around, all Soongs are a little morally ambiguous, which is why Data has ethical and morality subroutines and why Noonien was smart enough not to go the full Daystrom and just copy his own memory engrams over and call it good.Moreover, Altan would recognize that for all his flaws, Lore was still an achievement and his memories and being are worth preserving. On the other hand, I think Altan was a bit too optimistic.
Now I’d love to be proven wrong and that Lore does love Data and is pushed to realize that Data is valuable as he is and willingly integrate with him, to create a new more meaningful person.
I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop with Picard’s plan. Vadic in the Captain’s chair doesn’t work unless she’s fighting holograms and they’ve all absconded to the Shrike and then blow the Titan out of the stars. And why hasn’t anyone activated the Autodestruct?
Also shout out to the command crew for switching to the on the run jackets.
Amanda Plummer had some nice and meaty material, and I love that her musical bits are such vivid memories. Brilliantly described, but still…seen through the lens of Changeling bull shit. Self Righteousness that can only come from a species that calls themselves gods. But she wasn’t in the link when the cure was disseminated. So she wouldn’t know first hand, and wouldn’t have received Odo’s ability to trust solids.
Project Proteus, I missed Proteus in my Myths and Legends class. From wikipedia
Some who ascribe a specific domain to Proteus call him the god of “elusive sea change”, which suggests the constantly changing nature of the sea or the liquid quality of water. He can foretell the future, but, in a mytheme familiar to several cultures, will change his shape to avoid doing so; he answers only to those who are capable of capturing him. From this feature of Proteus comes the adjective protean, meaning “versatile”, “mutable”, or “capable of assuming many forms”. “Protean” has positive connotations of flexibility, versatility and adaptability.
OK, that is the perfect name for a program to co-opt, manipulate, and upgrade changelings.
@45/MeredithP: Okay, I just rewatched the scene. Sidney and Jack make mental contact somehow, and Sidney asks in echoey telepathic voiceover, “Jack! Jack, what should I do?” Jack sends back, “Turn around!” and after an instant’s hesitation, she chooses to do as he advises and turns to face the Changeling. A moment later, he says “Roll,” and they both perform a roll in sync. As the fight goes on, we can vaguely hear Jack sending other voiceover instructions like “Back,” “Right,” “Roll,” and “Fire.” He’s not making her do it, not moving her body for her; he’s literally telling her what to do, as well as performing the moves so she can feel them and move in sync. And there’s nothing in her eyes or body language to suggest she’s under any kind of mind control; she’s fully herself and is simply accepting the guidance of the person she asked for help. It’s not control, it’s instruction.
Afterward, when the urgency of the moment fades, she has a “What just happened” look of confusion and asks, “Was that you in my head?” She reacts defensively for a brief moment, but it’s not a reaction of violation or fear at being taken over, merely confusion that someone she believed to be human has demonstrated an unsuspected telepathic ability.
@45 MeredithP
So, she’s Gwen Verdon, and he’s Bob Fosse? Which, admittedly, for anyone who knows their partnership, doesn’t help a feminist interpretation. Although Gwen definitely comes out way better in “All That Jazz”, even if Bob, I mean Joe, gets the the finale.
@43 Barton and Wiedmann gave an interview to TrekMovie. Barton said that Wiedmann was hired somewhat late in the process because he wouldn’t have been able to do it all himself on time. He also said that Wiedmann doing 7 and 9 (and apparently some of 10) allowed him to focus on the last thirty minutes of 10, which I’m guessing is the climax of the whole thing.
Yes, ChristopherLBennett is absolutely right about the Jack-Sidney scene; he has telepathy, not mind-control, and is telling her what to do when.
The discussion here has only affirmed that I do really like the fact that the season plot centers around the aftermath of the Changeling virus. The “oh, Starfleet is evil now” is sort of beside the point imo.
Deep Space Nine Season 7 established that Section 31, with the active collusion of at least a lot of people at Starfleet Medical if not in Starfleet Command, developed a virus to wipe out the Changelings and deployed it into Odo before the war started (though of course not before the Dominion had made its intentions clear and had performed multiple acts of war including destroying the Odyssey and capturing the Defiant and subjecting its crew to mind-invasion). Then during the war, when a cure was found, the Federation Council voted not to give the cure to the Dominion, and Odo forged peace by doing so on his own account.
That in the process Section 31 captured and experimented on some Changelings really isn’t a huge surprise. It’s evil; but it seems like the torture was largely or entirely a byproduct of the experimentation. The point of it is not gratuitous evil for evil’s sake, though, but logical consequence of an existing evil will: if you’ve decided to un-person an entire sentient species and formed the intention to figure out their biology in order to exploit and/or destroy it, these are the sort of things you will inevitably do. It’s a consequence of the great atrocity, which is attempting to commit genocide.
If we accept that DS9 happened in the Star Trek universe, then this atrocity is a real atrocity and is not something that should be swept under the rug or looked away from. An evil decision on that scale naturally has enormous numbers of consequences and collateral effects.
Even if we accept that Section 31 is totally distinct from Starfleet and that the decision was theirs and theirs alone, that decision would inevitably come to involve lots of people in the Federation, from people who participated in the research to people who helped capture Changelings and funnel them to them to people who helped infect Odo to people who looked the other way at the right times up to finally the Federation Council choosing as a whole to benefit from that decision by not giving the cure to the enemy. I’m a historian, and that’s exactly the kind of historical atrocity that would continue to have massive effects on the people and societies and institutions involved decades and even centuries later.
It would I think absolutely be more morally gray and ugly to just let the Star Trek universe sweep all that under the rug with no consequences, let Starfleet and the Federation keep merrily sashaying along as the pure spotless good guys with no problems, than to let some of those consequences come into the light and be played out. It would really be saying, “oh, sometimes the good guys just commit or participate in atrocities and benefit from them but that doesn’t change that they’re the good guys and there are no bad consequences for them at all.” As again ChristopherLBennett notes above, when people destroy morality in the name of national defense, it usually comes back to bite them! And that’s important to show.
I never bought “the Federation is utopia” or “Starfleet are perfect stuff” (in TOS both were just somewhat idealized versions of the 20th century US and/or UN: committed to peace and science but with imperfect institutions and people with primitive instincts or bad attitudes capable of drastic or stupid or evil decisions and even atrocities especially in matters of war and self-defense; I will not kill today, etc.), but even if I were a truly moral Federation and Starfleet would show its morality by publicly grappling with these things.
A Starfleet-Changeling Truth and Reconciliation Commission is not very dramatic, though, so telling a story where that can happen in a dramatized way I think is a really excellent idea. Hopefully they can stick the landing in a way that affirms morality and the possibility of reconciliation in the aftermath of conflict and atrocity. If it ends on a dark place of morally-compromised enemies having no choice but to kill each other to survive, I’ll be very upset, but the writers of Picard S3 seem to understand Star Trek better than that and have earned some degree of confidence from me so far.
(I’m not convinced all the people at Secret Hideout understand that, though, which is why I am really not looking forward to the Section 31 show).
All that being said, I agree with people who thought the episode was a bit disjointed in parts. I’m getting tired of being teased about Jack Crusher, and I really hope the reveal next week doesn’t suck. But overall this season has been a huge step up thus far.
There was a moment in this episode, when Picard and Crusher were discussing options in sickbay, that I was sure that Picard was about to turn to Vadic, drop the forcefield and say “what happened to you was inexcusable—but I believe we can find common ground and find some measure of justice for you and your people. Please trust me.” And…….that did not happen. Picard was going to phaser a prisoner.
I don’t even know how to process that. Maybe Stewart thought it would be cool.
Picard spent an episode and a half as a Borg, and roughly 7 episodes worth of movies being a movie hero. Those don’t define him for me. He’s “Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel,” or any number of other examples over seven seasons. I don’t expect Picard of today to be the same person he was in Next Gen—he’s matured, we’ve matured, TV’s changed. But if you gave a TNG fan a multiple choice question on how Picard would deal with a hypothetical situation, and option D was “kill the prisoner”, would anyone guess that?
Season long arcs have not been a strength of recent Trek. I’m enjoying the season but my expectations this is all going to hang together in a satisfactory way are very modest. But I’m wondering what exactly the Changelings are going to be able to do at the fleet review that they can’t do after taking control of a significant portion of Starfleet.
Trek is totally guilty of conflating Starfleet and the Federation from time to time, but I don’t think it’s usually plot-relevant. Here I think it’s extremely relevant as it seems the antagonists are motivated by the Dominion War, which was fought by Starfleet but was a war with the Federation. Trek has indicated that Starfleet now has hundreds, if not thousands of ships. I think ‘Picard’ is suggesting that most of those ships are under Changeling control. Blowing up a few more ships than they currently command is a minor thing compared to turning those ships against civilian targets, which is something we’ve actually seen the Changelings do before. (Yes, the normal crew would balk but it’s not going to take crew compliance to fire a couple spreads of torpedoes or turn the ship into a giant antimatter bomb.) Bringing all your assets to one place on Frontier Day just makes it easier for the heroes to save the day—the heroes can only be in one place but the fleet can disperse.
Also, nobody has brought up the Federation government (I think). Might want to give them a call, let them know what’s up. If the proposition is that all levels of authority are under Changeling control I think there are some larger problems than what will happen to the fleet at Frontier Day. It would also require a staggering number of Changelings.
I hope they can stick the landing with this season. It’s not been perfect but it’s been a solid, character driven story and they even threw in some (brief) ethical dilemmas. It gives me the “yeah this is Star Trek feeling” that SNW has and the other seasons of Picard did not. I’m also enjoying enough that I don’t bother to worry about nitpicks or plot holes.
In wondering what other appearances we can expect.
Enterprise-D (the salvaged saucer with the dorsal section from another Galaxy class)?
Enterprise-E?
The futuristic Enterprise-D from All Good Things?
Janeway? Sisko? Barclay?
I see a red door, and I want to paint it Jack – the final “Previously On” scene.
My general sense of distaste for Section 31 and dislike of Beverly and Jean-Luc’s heel turn mirror krad’s, though I also agree with CLB that it at least gave Vadic a motivation – and explained why her Changelings were different. Did spearing Vadic’s torturer’s shoulder imply that they could merge with those they touch, making their changing even more sinister? I don’t think so, but it would explain what might have been implanted in Jack.
That doesn’t seem to make sense regarding Picard’s maybe-not-Irumodic syndrome, though, as I don’t believe he was changeling-touched. It rather annoyed me that Picard said they’d be doing a genetic scan on him to allow him to give his speech. But what genetic material would a golem have to verify?
@47, you’ve hit the nail on the head for me as to why Lore should be renamed Bore at this point: He’s all-hate, all the time. There’s no character growth in that villain, so he seems fundamentally uninteresting. And leaving him jacked into the ship’s computer seems a really bad idea, even if Data can be coaxed out. I’m glad called out Lal being missing from the list of personas this episode. I’d forgotten how many links among the Soongians there were until CLB traced them for me last week; oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to conceive.
I agree with CLB@48 that the reason Sidney pulled her weapon on Jack after their dance was that the acute danger had passed and she had no idea how Jack did the mental tango with her, which made her question whether he might also be something different.
I suspect that what the star wanted was to be allowed to make TV with Michael Chabon.
I mean the way James Gandolfini was able to make TV with David Chase; the way Mary-Louise Parker was able to make TV with Jenji Kohan; the way Peter Capaldi and Julia Louis-Dreyfus were able to make TV with Armando Iannucci; the way “everyone I know in SAG, everyone I know in BAFTA, everyone I know in a non-union regional company that produces repertory theatre in Baltimore, plus a couple cops and some drug addicts I met on a street-corner in late 1997” were able to make TV with David Simon.
Unfortunately, Paramount, Viacom, CBS, Secret Hideout, and Weyland-Yutani aren’t HBO.
In an alternate timeline where Mr. Arnaz is still calling the shots, Desilu+ let Chabon and Sir Patrick do three seasons of low-key, no-big-bad, character driven stories that checked in on a couple of the Big Seven each year–as well as the whole crew together for one scene in each season’s finale, at the very end, in complete silence, at a funeral. (S1: Data; S2: Q; S3: Jean-Luc).
I wish I could watch that show. I also wish I could watch the show Desilu+ lets Terry Matalas make, which is called “Seven,” and follows Jeri Ryan and the Michelles (Hurd and Yeoh) as they face off against the biggest and baddest Big Bads out there, using weapons so powerful Raffi accidentally punctures continuity and hits Darth Vader–and Disney+ actually stops the CGI cameos out of respect!
“I utterly despise this development, as it not only isn’t necessary, it’s yet another example of the Federation being shown, not to be the near-utopia that Gene Roddenberry envisioned, but a façade that hides the worst of humanity, which is the exact opposite of what Star Trek is supposed to be. The worst of humanity should be the isolated incidents, the bad apples, the exceptions.”
oh please, were you not paying attention during DS9? Do you think S31 just stumbled across a way to commit genocide by accident?
It has occurred to me a few times over the last two and a half decades that DS9 set up the idea in Seasons 4 and 5 that there were Changeling infiltrators throughout the Alpha Quadrant (with Paradise Lost establishing there were four on Earth), only to complete drop this arc by Season 6 and say the Female Changeling was the only Founder in the Alpha Quadrant. What happened to the others? I guess now we know and it’s not pretty…
@51/Captain Peabody: “That in the process Section 31 captured and experimented on some Changelings really isn’t a huge surprise.”
Morally, no; logistically, yes. When and how did they manage to do that? I mean, Changelings are far better at covert operations than Section 31. They’ve got millennia of experience at eluding detection and capture. How did 31 even find them, let alone capture and hold so many of them? I could buy maybe one or two, but I think Vadic said there were nine of them.
Honestly, I really don’t understand the fans who complained about how out-of-character Picard felt during the first two seasons but who don’t have a problem with his characterisation here. Having him decide to execute a prisoner of war is practically character assassination, as far as I’m concerned.
@58/Christopher
My thinking is four of those nine were the ones that were already on Earth (mentioned in Paradise Lost). That leaves only five others.
I agree, it does seem kind of dubious. However, I can imagine that the screening process improved and they found some by the chagelings tripping up about things they should know.
@60/Mary: “and they found some by the chagelings tripping up about things they should know.”
That’s another thing that bugs me — how much worse these Changelings are at impersonation. In DS9, Changelings were able to pull off successful impersonations for long periods of time, as Martok, Julian Bashir, and others. The Bashir impostor was so convincing that even the writers didn’t know he was there! (I.e. they wrote Bashir as himself until they decided to retroactively say he’d been an impostor for weeks, so he was effectively a completely convincing impostor.) And they were more than capable of fooling internal scans, which is why blood had to be physically separated from them before it changed back. Yet now we’re told that Changelings’ impersonations were much more limited, that their ability to fool internal scans is a new development, and their impersonations are not very convincing at all, easily penetrated by exposing their lack of knowledge. It’s an inconsistent portrayal.
@CLB – If I’m not mistaken, I think @Sean had the same thought I did, that Tuvok was retconned into STVI: TUS by showing him serving on Sulu’s Excelsior in “Flashback,” not that Tim Russ was playing Tuvok in the actual film.
@62/cvalin: But the topic is how many distinct series a character has appeared in, and “Flashback” is an episode of Voyager and does not count as part of TUC. I mean, you wouldn’t count Ben and Jake Sisko as TNG characters because “Emissary” opened with a flashback to “The Best of Both Worlds,” because that flashback wasn’t in TNG itself. Same with “Trials and Tribble-ations” — it makes scenes from TOS part of DS9, but that does not make the DS9 characters part of TOS. It makes them part of the same in-universe events, but not the same real-world series.
@61 I think I prefer this version of Changeling impersonation, because the nearly flawless presentation in DS9 always kind of bugged me. Martok I can actually accept, because most people wouldn’t question a general, him goading the Klingons to war is not weird for them, and I honestly don’t think Sirella spoke with him enough to notice a difference.
But Bashir is another story, and it being a surprise to the writers as well explains a lot. Odo caught on to the Martok Changeling pretty quickly, the one impersonating Bashir never should have gotten as far as he did. The way Picard presents them feels much more realistic.
@64/Chase: As Mr. Magic said in comment #9, the difference in the skill of the impersonations can be explained by the difference in access to Dominion resources. The Dominion was subtly infiltrating the quadrant for quite some time before their presence was detected. Changeling agents could’ve turned into anyone or anything and spied on their targets for weeks or months before replacing them, so it’s plausible that they could’ve developed perfect impersonations. This smaller rogue faction of Changelings hasn’t been able to spend as much time or dig as deeply, and thus its impersonations are more imperfect. So I can buy that distinction.
What I can’t buy is this season’s counterfactual claim that DS9-era Changelings were unable to fool internal scans. They were always undetectable even to a medical exam, which was why the blood tests were necessary and why they weren’t even reliable.
@65
But what about at the during the war? Isn’t it possible that at some point between 2374 – the end of 2375, Federation tech was able to more easily scan for shapeshifters?
Honestly, I don’t remember and maybe I am completely off-base. But I get the feeling that the tech did improve at some point by the end of the war.
Y’know, since we don’t know what Picard and the Enterprise-E were doing during the Dominion War, I think one option would’ve been to have had them capture a Dominion ship or facility with these Changelings aboard. Then unbeknownst to our heroes, the prisoners ended up in the evil Section 31 lab. Small universe? Yeah, pretty much, but it would be a way to make this more personal for the TNG crew.
When Picard and Crusher were standing there listening to Vadic, I kept thinking that this was great but it would probably mean more to Sisko and especially Bashir; he was the one we saw being compromised during the war by S31, and he was a doctor no less.
Well then, fingers crossed for a Bashir appearance in these last three episodes…
OR, maybe some medical tech developed by Crusher could’ve ended up in the hands of S31 for these experiments. Sorry, just brainstorming here.
@66 / Mary:
But what about at the during the war? Isn’t it possible that at some point between 2374 – the end of 2375, Federation tech was able to more easily scan for shapeshifters?
One other factor is that the Morpohgenic Virus would also have been in full swing at that point in the War — and this may have been another purpose of the disease’s creation.
With Founders’ shapeshifting affected, it may have made it easier for AQ infiltrators to accidentally expose themselves and get spotted.
@65 Maybe the internal scan issue has a similar response to the one you gave for their imperfect impersonations. When the Dominion captured and replaced people, maybe they subjected them to thorough internal imaging scans so that the Changeling who took their place would be able to completely replicate their internal physiology as well as their external appearance (at least well enough to full a cursory scan). They’ve mentioned multiple times this season how Changelings are capable of copying somebody after seeing them once; it’s simply not as sophisticated a transformation as the Dominion could do for their best infiltrators. With that and the likely possibility that the war led the Federation to develop more sophisticated scanners for Starfleet installations and ships, I can accept the explanation that’s given.
I forgot to mention in my previous critique of this episode what I thought of the whole Lore/Data thing. To me it’s kind of silly and an excuse for Brent Spiner to have an acting exercise in multiple personality disorder. To have someone speak to who they think is Data and then he’s basically like “no, I’m Lore”, and then when they think they’re still talking to him he goes, “actually it’s me, Data again”, is comical when that’s probably not the intention for the scene. And as someone else mentioned already, Lore is pretty one-note as a villain so I don’t in particular care for these scenes. I don’t get why Alton Soong would ever think it was a good idea to integrate Lore, a homicidal maniac, into the golem in the first place!!! I also thought from the previous episode that B-4 and Alton were also integrated personalities and not just memory files. And now, not even a mention of Lal? That’s all weird. I wonder though if Lal was a part of the golem and her personality came through would Lal’s voice be used or would Brent Spiner do an impression of her.
@66/Mary: “But what about at the during the war? Isn’t it possible that at some point between 2374 – the end of 2375, Federation tech was able to more easily scan for shapeshifters?”
That’s what they seemed to say a few episodes ago, when the Changelings were first identified as the threat, but since then they’ve basically been talking as though Changelings couldn’t replicate internal anatomy at all until now.
@71 I always understood Soong’s mention of Lal to be referencing the fact that Data copied her memories over to himself before she died, so it makes sense that she wouldn’t exist as a separate file. I was hopeful that they would resolve the Data/Lore conflict in this episode, because it makes Data a serious liability and I want him to actually be helpful. I would love if Data draws on Lal’s memories of naturally-developed positive emotions (maybe with Troi’s help) to force the integration of Lore into himself so he can become a new version of himself.
I do love how LeVar Burton is playing off of Brent Spiner, however. That’s the one thing I do like about those scenes, Geordi having some kind of catharsis in reconnecting with Data.
#71. Maybe Alton Soong was inspired by the case file of one James T. Kirk being split into good and evil halves and how they needed each other to be a whole person, yadda yadda. So, Data, Lore, you two crazy kids need each other too.
Which leads us to the next spinoff in the Trek universe: The Positronic Odd Couple.
@72–That’s what they seemed to say a few episodes ago, when the Changelings were first identified as the threat, but since then they’ve basically been talking as though Changelings couldn’t replicate internal anatomy at all until now.
Wow, to be honest, I never thought they could either. It didn’t occur to me until this conversation why that never made sense. Guess I figured the scans are more about scanning for DNA and not really an X-ray.
@76/Mary: “Guess I figured the scans are more about scanning for DNA and not really an X-ray.”
For a remote instrument like a tricorder, it would be immensely easier to scan for large-scale internal body structures like bones and organs than for microscopic things like DNA. I mean, you can make out internal organs to some extent with infrared. Geordi could do it without even trying. And a Vulcan could probably hear whether someone had a heartbeat or not.
@43 It might not be as fanciful as Beverly or Picard “super” genetics at all or even replacement of baby with Changeling (fairy tale style) but artificial interference while Beverly was either pregnant with Jack or when he was just a newborn. Even now parents test for genetic diseases while in-vitro and scientists try to develop technologies to cure those diseases either before the child is born or immediately after. If Beverly was concerned at all with her child inheriting Irumodic Syndrome or perhaps some genetic Borg change from Picard, she would have gone to reputable doctors for tests, and potential medical intervention. And those doctors may have been secretly connected with Daystrom and project Proteus and used experimental treatment based on that (or perhaps they were already impersonated by Vadic and her cohort). And changes in Jack are related to that as side-effect (or intended effect) of that treatment.
I’ve been thinking about the spectacularly bad idea that the entire fleet converges in one spot for Frontier Day. I think the only reason that’s not being challenged is because Starfleet’s been compromised at the highest levels.
Also, they keep mentioning Janeway. I doubt we’ll get an answer to this, but I wonder is she’s the Commander & Chief of Starfleet now? If so, that’d be cool.
@78 – “If Beverly was concerned at all with her child inheriting Irumodic Syndrome or perhaps some genetic Borg change from Picard, she would have gone to reputable doctors for tests, and potential medical intervention.”
Why would Beverly go to another doctor when she could do it herself?
@80 presumably, like lawyers, a doctor who treats herself has a fool for a patient.
Some of the thoughts going through my head after I watched the episode:
— Someone who looks like my beloved Captain Picard was just about to execute a prisoner. Why does this story need chagelings if the characters already aren’t acting like themselves?
— Geordi connecting Lore to the Ship’s computer is just stoopid.
— why didn’t they blow up Vadic’s shuttle as it was flying towards the Titan? Why didn’t they ambush them as soon as they stepped on board?
— Why does pounding on a forcefield weaken it?
— I thought the point of letting themselves be found by the Shrike was to save Riker, but what was the rescue plan?
@65 / CLB:
This smaller rogue faction of Changelings hasn’t been able to spend as much time or dig as deeply, and thus its impersonations are more imperfect. So I can buy that distinction.
Yeah, as we were discussing on the TV Tropes recap page, that may be a clue as to when specifically Tuvok was replaced.
The Changeling knew enough personal information to pass Seven’s initial test, but failed the second personal test. That suggests replacing and impersonating Tuvok was a rush job for Vadic’s crew (once they realized Seven was involved in the counter-conspiracy and correctly anticipating she’d seek out her Voyager associates for help).
On the other hand, there is that remark that “Tuvok” hadn’t spoken with Janeway recently. That suggests the swap may have actually been made within recent months.
After all, if you were trying it isolate Janeway and keep her in the dark, compromising Tuvok — one of her oldest friends, a Senior Captain, and a former Security/Tactical officer who, like Ro, might also have spotted the same recent incongruities across Starfleet — would be an intelligence/infiltration coup.
The timing of Frontier Day would also be beneficial. Few people know Tuvok as well as Janeway and she’d very likely spot inconsistencies (especially given the difficulties of staying in character as a Vulcan). Having Janeway involved in Frontier Day keeps her busy and gives a plausible excuse for Tuvok not to ‘give her a ring’.
@82 As I said above, I really don’t believe we saw the full plan this week. This episode felt more like a traditional cliffhanger two-parter. I’m pretty sure the idea was to get Vadic and as many of her crew off the Shrike as possible so Worf and Raffi could board it and rescue Riker.
I think this is not as shocking a character break for Picard as everyone makes it out to be. In I, Borg he plans to use Hugh to do to the Borg what Odo was used to do to the Changelings in DS9, until Beverly, the rest of the crew, and then finally Guinan talk him out of it. He’s shown himself willing to take morally gray actions before, in the moment, in the face of a serious threat. Vadic may have a legitimate grievance, but she’s also an intransigent threat to his son, Starfleet, and the Federation.
It is a bigger break for Beverly, but she acknowledges that she’s been pushed to the breaking point.
@85 It was a nice bit of genre savviness, albeit the wrong genre. Maybe it’s not unreasonable to shoot the bad guy out of hand if they’re acting like being imprisoned is all part of their plan. But it wouldn’t be very star trek.
Well I mean, Beverly herself has a lineage that could very well include a sexy space ghost.
That she also slept with. Now pardon me while I go get some brain bleach…
The whole red eye thing with Jack Crusher kind of reminds me of creepy alien girl from TNG’s “Imaginary Friend.” Maybe Jack is partly one of those aliens? On the other hand, Terry Matalas probably doesn’t want to reference that dreadful episode in any shape, way, or form.
What struck me about Crusher and Picard’s conversation about whether they should kill Vadic was how theatrical it was. They did it within her hearing, and spoke very explicitly about it. I think it was staged to put Vadic off balance, to what end remains to be seen.
When they fired on her later it could well have been to prevent her escaping rather than to kill. The camera spent a meaningful amount of time on Picard’s phaser as he adjusted it – ‘set phasers to stun’?
Why would Picard lure Vadic to the Titan just to kill her? She’s a significant cog in the infiltration machine, and a valuable intelligence asset, killing her now would not make sense.
@28 Krad
@29 CLB
It would be nonsensical that Sidney would know which way to roll when Jack thinks roll, which fist to use when he thinks punch or which way and how to dodge when he thinks dodge. She does not look at Jack. In fact, for a phase of the fight, she is completely turned away from him, so she is not getting additional info that way. Also, reaction time would be a major issue, even if you are very focused on taking instructions it is easy to be thrown off, stumble or react fairly late even more so under pressure (think of the kids game Simon Says).
Moreover, she dropped her weapon only after hearing the whistling of Vadic and then seeing her. She was again in imminent danger of death due to changeling. Which of course necessitates she deal with the Jack stuff later.
I read the scene as he is physically manipulating her through telepathy but she had sorta consented, though she did not expect that kind of help. Also him talking to her in her head may be his own thoughts as he is doing the moves (like how some people when doing things narrate what they are doing in their mind) or maybe he is not in full control, maybe he is just reassuring her, maybe it’s to still give her a sense of control. I don’t know. I am guessing we may get a more definitive answer next episode. But if Jack really was not controlling her and just giving her instructions in real time in Sidney’s head, that seems pretty dumb to me as outlined above.
(note: I tagged Krad and CLB on this, but I may have ended up more talking in general about the scene than necessarily address specific individual points made by either person)
@89 doctorp
Yup, this was my thinking of it as well. A way to get Vadic to confess more information. Those phasers certainly were not set to kill, they hit Vadic multiple times, and it did not seem to do much of anything to her. Of course when it comes to weapons on Star Trek and how much damage they do, it’s all over the place.
-Kefka
@90/kefka: “It would be nonsensical that Sidney would know which way to roll when Jack thinks roll, which fist to use when he thinks punch or which way and how to dodge when he thinks dodge.”
She knows because they’re sharing in his knowledge. In the Star Trek: S.C.E. e-novella series that Keith edited, I created a Betazoid security officer, Rennan Konya, who wasn’t sensitive enough to read thoughts, but had trained himself to read the motor cortex of the brain, sensing people’s movement cues and proprioception, their awareness of their own bodies’ position and motion. This allowed him to sense how an opponent was about to move, to feel their physical reaction and movement as they felt them, so that he could anticipate and counter their moves before they made them. I figure that Jack was doing the opposite of that, transmitting his motor cues to Sidney rather than receiving them. She “knew” how to move because their minds were linked, as in a mind-meld. She felt his moves as he made them, shared in his muscle memory of how to perform them, and thus was able to follow in sync.
As I’ve been saying, it’s like one dancer leading another, except he’s doing it by telepathic telepresence instead of direct touch. The leading dancer does not “control” or “manipulate” their partner’s body, merely guides them in how to move. The partner is an active participant, not merely a puppet.
@53. If we’re looking for obscure TNG cameos, maybe we can get Tracee Cocco to play Jae again and save the day in the last episode, paying off 33 years of character setup.
And yeah, I’m desperately hoping that stiffly-acted scene of planning to execute the prisoner was some kind of ploy. I’m guessing next week’s episode will be set simultaneously to this one and involve whatever’s happening on the Shrike.
Also note that Vadic’s explanation doesn’t account for some things we-the-audience have seen (like her Hand-ler), but which no one else in the scene would know about.
@92/Cybersnark – I’m maintaining hope that it will turn out to be a ploy, but this interview with Terry Matalas strongly implies that it was meant to be a serious plot point, and if so, may I say: “Ugh.”
@93 Well this is an intriguing little nugget from Matalas in that Collider interview: “So it’s not easy to just get ahold of someone, but you’ll see, quickly, that there are some Hail Marys coming.” Sounds to me like we’re going to get a few more cameos like Tim Russ’s.
I think Kate Mulgrew is a foregone conclusion to show up. Even though I expect it, I wouldn’t love seeing it any less. A Picard/Janeway team-up is aces in my book. I think Matalas had indicated that he couldn’t get Colm Meaney unfortunately. But seeing Barclay show up and a Doctor Ogawa would also be nice. Shelby and Lefler too.
Surely someone from Deep Space Nine would be a good fit.
@95/garreth: “But seeing Barclay show up and a Doctor Ogawa would also be nice.”
I wish people would stop assuming that all nurses are just doctors in training. That’s not how it works, and it’s disrespectful to the nursing profession. Nursing is a separate specialty all its own that complements the work doctors do, and doctors’ work would be impossible without nurses. It doesn’t make sense to assume that becoming a doctor is the ultimate professional goal for everyone in the medical profession, any more than it makes sense to assume that everyone in Starfleet has to become a captain (a mistake Trek makes far too often) or that everyone in filmmaking has to become a director. It’s more the exception than the rule.
@97 There’s plenty of Trek precedent for it, though. Nurse Chapel became a doctor, and one of the alternate universes in “Parallels” had a Doctor Ogawa.
I think Kira’s a good bet to be a person contacted for help, because I think there’s a chance she’s outside of Starfleet. Hopefully, Bajor has joined the Federation so there’s no longer a Bajoran Militia, but in the novels she became a Vedek (and Kai?), so she might have some pull and is less likely to be replaced by a Changeling. Plus, hurting her might bring Odo’s wrath upon them.
@97/CLB: My intention was certainly not to disrespect the profession of nursing. I happen to be currently in training to become an EMT and then ultimately a paramedic and I definitely have no intention to become a doctor as an ultimate goal. My mention of a “Doctor” Ogawa was a wink at the reference to that iteration of the character in “Parallels”, and just to denote some kind of professional growth for the character. In Star Trek, everyone on the medical staff is either a doctor or a nurse. There’s no one referred to as the “chief nurse” or such so my point was to indicate that Ogawa has attained a different title in the 25+ years since we last saw her.
@96/jamiebabb: I agree it would be nice to see someone from DS9 (not counting Worf) make an appearance instead of just references. By the fact they’re Starfleet officers, Bashir and Ezri Dax would be good candidates. And there’s no reason why someone outside the Federation (which is seemingly the only interstellar power infiltrated by the Changelings), could lend a helping hand such as Martok.
@98/Chase: “There’s plenty of Trek precedent for it, though. Nurse Chapel became a doctor, and one of the alternate universes in “Parallels” had a Doctor Ogawa.”
That’s exactly the problem, though — that Trek perpetuates the ignorant prejudice that nursing is an inferior profession, that nurses are just embryonic doctors rather than a distinct specialty that deserves respect on its own terms. The fact that Trek has made the mistake twice is a reason not to keep making it. Enough already.
Trek also perpetuates the nonsensical idea that most Starfleet officers become captains, but that doesn’t mean it should. In both cases, it’s a lazy assumption that misunderstands how things work in those professional fields.
“in the novels [Kira] became a Vedek (and Kai?), so she might have some pull and is less likely to be replaced by a Changeling.”
Picard has already thoroughly contradicted the post-Nemesis novel continuity in numerous ways, so I very much doubt they’d honor its version of what happened to Kira.
@91 CLB I hope we find out. Because both of our explanations work. I really would not like to have it be a mysterious power kind of thing, and it just works well because.
@98 Chase “Parallels’ though is about alternative realities which are all in parallel with each other in time. Put another way, In another life, Ogawa at the same age would be a doctor instead of a nurse.
-Kefka
@100 – Nurses today are much closer to doctors that in the time of Florence Nightingale. We now have nursing specialists as well as nurse practitioners. And it makes sense to have as many medical personnel on a starship that can diagnose and even treat various ailments.
My sister was a nurse and she said that there were nurses she’d trust with medical decisions before some doctors.
Expecting a profession to not advance in hundreds of years is not believable. It wasn’t that long ago that we didn’t have paramedics either. Ambulance attendants would pick you up and you’d just hope that you wouldn’t die before you get to the hospital.
@100 CLB “That’s exactly the problem, though — that Trek perpetuates the ignorant prejudice that nursing is an inferior profession, that nurses are just embryonic doctors rather than a distinct specialty that deserves respect on its own terms.”
McCoy’s line in ST:TMP seems to respect nursing.
McCoy: I hear Chapel’s an MD now. Well, I’m gonna need a top nurse, not a doctor who’ll argue every little diagnosis with me.
Of course, McCoy wasn’t explicitly named as Chief Medical Officer, so at some level, his comment is presumptuous.
@103/BeeGee: But TMP is the source of the problem, the idea that Chapel went from nurse to doctor as if it were some kind of promotion, rather than a lateral move to a different profession. Granted, the film also showed Chekov making a lateral move from navigation to security, but those are different enough that it doesn’t create the wrong impression that it’s a promotion.
It also probably doesn’t take as many years of study and training to make the transition to security. It’s problematical that Chapel somehow became a doctor within just the two and a half years since the 5-year mission.
And I think it’s rather generous to interpret McCoy’s line in that way. As I hear it, he’s saying he wants an obedient subordinate rather than an equal.
We know Locutus was meant to be a Borg counterpart to the Queen. We know the Queen can start a collective on her own. We know this band of changelings are not connected to the great link, and every changeling yearns for the link.
Theory:
The brain disorder that killed Picard was a direct result from his time as a Borg. It’s not a human syndrome. Jack inherited that from Picard’s DNA. Vadic wants Jack bc they want to use him to set up an alternate Great Link for their survival.
They stole Picard’s body bc they are going to reanimate him as Locutus and use him to destroy the Federation on Frontier Day. The hand is Locutus.
@105/M: “We know Locutus was meant to be a Borg counterpart to the Queen.”
No, he wasn’t, at least not as originally conceived. In “Best of Both Worlds,” Locutus was merely meant to be a speaker for the Collective, a face and voice to interface with authority-based civilizations — no more than a puppet being operated by the Collective to deliver its instructions. That’s the whole reason for the name “Locutus,” which is Latin for “He Who Has Spoken” (though Michael Piller misremembered when he coined the name, thinking it just meant “language”). There’s no sense in giving that name to anything but a speaker, a communicator.
First Contact‘s attempt to retcon Locutus into some kind of “Borg King” destined to rule at the Queen’s side was inane, part of its ill-conceived effort to turn the Borg from a faceless, impersonal enemy into a sexy seductress with a personal connection to the hero. (Although Locutus himself was the first step in dumbing down the Borg concept to make it less impersonal. Why the hell would a Collective that’s been destroying or absorbing authority-based civilizations for millennia suddenly need to adopt a propaganda puppet in order to do so?)
After all, the whole point of a hive mind is that it’s all the same mind, all a single individual made of countless physically distinct parts. The Queen is not a separate being from the Collective, she is the Collective, the singular mind that it all adds up to. At most, she’s the coordinating node for it all, like the frontal lobe of the brain. But to a large extent, she’s just a mouthpiece for the Collective’s thoughts and decisions. In that sense, yes, she is like Locutus, but only in the sense that both of them are extensions of the same single mind. They are the same being in different bodies. So there are no “counterparts,” no destined ruling couple. The whole Collective is one entity.
Lore loves Data. But since Lore is a narcissistic psychopath, that love is expressed in unfortunate ways. I compared Lore to Doctor Who’s “The Master” already.
I may have also compared “woman is secretly impregnated by an alien” plots to so-called flushable wet wipes, which either should be illegal or are, so please don’t let Jack be the result of that. Come to think, don’t let me overlook “man is secretly impregnated by an alien”. But don’t make me watch it again either.
I haven’t seen everything Section 31, but it looks like mainly a conspiracy amongst sworn Starfleet officers, with a lot of setting aside what they’ve sworn to, and, I will maintain, it is an unnecessary evil.
Executing your prisoner may relate to a scene in “The Three Musketeers”. I’m not saying that justifies it in this situation. Or in that one. It’s complicated. But should this be under the Geneva Conventions, and in what circumstances would it be allowed? Can you treat a Changeling as a prisoner who can’t be disarmed and therefore has to be killed? Or is it “that’s your problem”?
This may not help, but James White’s “Sector General” was revised or retconned, I think, to have multispecies doctors at the General Hospital be top-ranking younger same-species doctors, surgeons, etc., then “promoted” into multispecies nursing at Sector General to start with, then promoted again to multispecies doctor. However, I don’t think there’s evidence of it working that way from the first appearances of Dr Conway until it happens in “Code Blue – Emergency”, or perhaps the book before that, which I haven’t got around to, unless that is the book after that.
@100. While it’s true that the novelverse continuity is out the window, personally I’ve kinda feel that eventually becoming Kai was always the end goal of Kira’s character arc, ever since the first episode introduced the position. Her experiences with Sisko, the Prophets, the Bajoran resistance/reconstruction, and the redemption of the Cardassians, as well as her history with both Opaka and Winn (standing as the best and worst examples) all seemed to be steps in this direction. She has always walked the path of the Prophets.
I don’t think anybody would be surprised to see Kai Kira (hell, it’d make more sense than most of the character work in Picard).
@108/Cybersnark: “personally I’ve kinda feel that eventually becoming Kai was always the end goal of Kira’s character arc”
I never got that impression at all. There’s a huge difference between having religious belief and taking religious orders. There are many people who are devoutly religious but still lead entirely secular lives and careers. I mean, she was a military officer. Have you ever heard of a former colonel becoming Pope? Okay, Google tells me that Pope John XXIII was an army medic and chaplain for a brief period, but it was a minor part of his biography and it doesn’t compare to being a career military officer for as long as Kira was.
OT @107: so-called flushable wet wipes, which either should be illegal or are
I believe I have read that the reports about these have been corrected to say that the kind that are specifically labeled “flushable” are *not* the problem; it is all the other ones that get flushed anyway.
RE: Picard, the series, this season
I have to say, as someone who has not watched all of Trek, I feel a bit left in the dust. The plot hangs together—sort of—but the emphasis seems to be on the fan-service of cameos or longer scenes/plot-points to give everyone else an update on past characters. I’ll finish watching it, but I can’t say I’m especially enjoying it.
@105/M: You’re also forgetting that Jack is not for Vadic and the Changelings which she specifically says to Picard even. It’s Vadic’s floating head handler that wants Jack. The Changelings just want to infiltrate and destroy the Federation. We don’t know yet what the endgame with Jack is.
@104 – “It’s problematical that Chapel somehow became a doctor within just the two and a half years since the 5-year mission.”
There’s no evidence that it’s been two and a half years between TOS and TMP. The only times we get is Scotty’s 18 months refitting the Enterprise and Kirk’s two and a half years as chief of Starfleet operations. There’s noting to say that the span wasn’t 6 or 8 or 10 years. The idea that Kirk would go from the captains chair to running Starfleet operations with nothing in between is ludicrous. Much like the situation of Crusher running Starfleet medical while just a Lt. commander.
Another problem with using the 2 1/2 year gas is it brigs up the question of what was the Enterprise doing for a year before the refit but after Kirk starts running Starfleet operations.
If we imagine that Kirk accepts promotion, but not to Starfleet operations at the end of TOS, and that there’s another 5 year mission without him. Spock & McCoy could have left at the same time. A new captain and first officer could have taken out the Enterprise for a five year mission, after which it would go into refit.
That gives us 7 1/2 years for Kirk to move up the admiralty before TMP. It also allows Spock time to return to Vulcan and undertake which would undoubtably be a long process of Kohlinar. It also allows Chapel time to get her MD. She’s already got medical background so there may be some sort of accelerated learning program. Hundreds of years in the future, I don’t imagine that medical training will look anything like it does now. It wasn’t that long ago that only doctors could write prescriptions. Now there’s areas where nurse, nurse practitioners and even pharmacist can do so, albeit in a limited way.
There’ve been enough comments that I’m sure somebody has commented on this, but good god was it frustrating to see the crew go, “Let’s *simultaneously* stage an elaborate trap for the enemy that’s hunting us *and* mess around with the evil AI personality that can easily take over the ship and is known to hate us
@113/nym: I actually don’t recall commentating as such but yes, definitely very poor planning to be tinkering with Data/Lore while all of that other business is going on. I mean, when you don’t need him for any questioning, just put the guy on pause until you do!
@113-114: I dunno, I think the idea was that, given the imminent danger they were in, having Data back could give them a valuable advantage, so they couldn’t afford to wait.
#115. That’s a good point. It would make a fun video counting all the times Data saved the day.
So for what it’s worth a lot of the complaints that people are leveling about Section 31 and bemoaning as bad writing hold for the CIA and other real world intelligence agencies. Doing whatever they want and not answering to anyone in power? The CIA has a very long history of this. During the Carter administration it got so bad that they practically pursued their own foreign policy, which was often opposed to Carter’s. There’s even pretty decent, though not conclusive, evidence that they played a role in undermining his reelection campaign by helping to sabotage the Iran hostage negotiations. As for blowback…. goodness where to even start on that one and the CIA? There are a lot of other real world intelligence agencies that these same charges very much hold true for. To take a fairly random example Pakistan’s ISI is probably more guilty of both of these things. Keeping intelligence agencies under any kind of supervision by the governments they work for is a huge problem, and these agencies overly clever evil plotting very commonly comes back to bite them, or perhaps more truthfully the people they supposedly work for, in the butt. This aspect of the whole Section 31 thing is extremely true to life.
@117/SD: Except the thing people keep forgetting — including modern Trek TV writers, apparently — is that Section 31 is not an intelligence agency. That’s Starfleet Intelligence. Section 31, as defined in DS9, is a criminal conspiracy within Starfleet. It has no legal authorization, no official existence, no oversight, no accountability. Its very purpose is to break the law, so by definition it can’t be authorized by law.
#117. There’s a better reason to complain about Section 31, and that’s the overuse of conspiracies and secret organizations in current fiction. How many times have we seen this in recent years? There’s a long list of movies and TV shows using the theme: Oh no, our organization is corrupt. We’re compromised. The call is coming from inside the house!
Got anything else, Hollywood?
@117 And the Federation is supposed to be above that sort of thing. This latest revelation of evil experimentation is even worse because it doesn’t even have the justification of protecting the Federation. They already had their bioweapon, what was the point of torturing the changelings? I’m tempted to say the writers just needed to give Vadic a motivation they could easily explain without regard for what it says about Starfleet and the Federation.
#120. I must’ve dozed off for a second, so I’m a little fuzzy on the timeline. When were Vadic and her comrades captured and tortured? Was this during or after the war? And was it not at all connected to the development of the bioweapon?
@121 My impression was that the torture was separate from the bioweapon. They were trying to come up with something else.
@121/Dingo: IIRC, Vadic said that the torture and experimentation were during the war. I think that was after Odo was infected with the bioweapon, which I think was during “Homefront”/”Paradise Lost.” So I guess it wasn’t connected to that. Vadic said it was research to turn Changelings into weapons, perfect infiltrators that Section 31 could use. (She didn’t actually name 31, but it’s implicit. She clearly doesn’t see a distinction between 31 and the rest of Starfleet.)
@121/Dingo: Vadic said she was captured during the war along with another 9 of her Changeling brothers and sisters (I guess they have sexes like humans). The experiments on them were separate or at least in addition to developing the virus to infect the Changelings. The experiment on Vadic and her distinct group was to create beings that could more perfectly mimic other individuals while evading detection.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up, all.
As presented in Deep Space 9 (and Enterprise), Section 31 was set up by Starfleet but then left to their own devices, with them seeing that original mandate as all the authorisation they need to do whatever they want. Of course, Discovery kind of messed that up by presenting us with a Section 31 who actually were accountable to and overseen by the mainstream Starfleet, leaving us with an awkward history where they were independent in the 22nd century, folded back into Starfleet in the 23rd and operating on their own again in the 24th.
@126/cap-mjb: “As presented in Deep Space 9 (and Enterprise), Section 31 was set up by Starfleet but then left to their own devices, with them seeing that original mandate as all the authorisation they need to do whatever they want.”
Not really. Rather, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter had an ambiguous passage about authorizing extraordinary measures for the Federation’s security, and some conspirators chose to interpret that vague language as license to break the law and use Federation security as an excuse. Nothing was formally “set up,” it’s just a loophole some people chose to exploit.
I thought this was the worst episode of the season-so-far. The editing, the directing, it was all weird and uncomfortable. Why were the changelings able to take over the bridge so easily? And after they shut down BS, how and why was he able to come back to life and effortlessly take over the ship, and suddenly roam around without his pretty fiber optic cable? I can accept almost anything as long as the (smart) characters are as surprised too, but when the characters just accept that the ridiculous is happening, and we didn’t see it happen, it takes me right out of the reality.
“However, this does lead us to the rather tired trope of the bad guy in prison and providing plot-convenient exposition. It’s one that particularly infused the popular consciousness in 1991’s The Silence of the Lambs, “
Oh nooo… I mean, sure, sort of. But the bad guy giving a speech that reveals his plans has been a thing since radio shows, at least. Radio crime shows tied everything up in 30 minutes and featured either the bad guy gloating or confessing, or the good guy accusing (typically with no recourse if the bad guy, instead of just saying ‘i give up’, decides to shoot him). This was also a thing in a lot of early 20th century movies, and I imagine it must have been in books before that.
I mean, Khan did it long before Lambs.
But we agree: Scenery chewing bad guys with speeches bigger than their egos are boring. Vadic’s private scenes with the Floating Head Hand are way more interesting and she’s way less cocksure. Give me that Vadic the rest of the time, and I’m so interested.
The show, especially this episode, feels like it’s shot in closeup and several varying takes loosely stitched together, to kind of hide the lack of realism in the sets. I’ve really enjoyed this season until now anyway, but they lost me here.
Also, I have yet to actually crack Jack. I don’t like him, I don’t hate him, I don’t feel like the actor fully knows what to do with him. It often feels empty, like a puppet show.
LeVar Burton was always a strong actor. I mean, he was Emmy nominated for his first real role, in the groundbreaking miniseries Roots. But I think giving him a stylish 80s ‘do and covering his eyes were more preventive than anything else. His big eyes are so great, and so not hidden behind a visor, in Picard. That’s the revelation… his eyes! :)
Data/Lore whatnot feels like loosely inconsistent plot built around fanservice and I’m just not interested. I can think of at least a dozen more interesting ways to use Brent Spiner with his head full of characters. One idea: Have him be like HAL, full of zen calm, but with flashes of characters.
Second idea: Have his Soong personality take over briefly and figure out how to hook him up to the holodeck (or even just an AI movie generator) so each of his personalities can walk around separately, and while that gives us 100% good guy Data, it also gives Lore a chance to escape and take over — which makes more sense than how it happened. And because it’s a simulation, they could have used bad looking de-aging CGI of any level. It would be neat to see young Data.
Anyway, a lot of boredom in this episode, and yes that’s 3rd Act issues, it doesn’t have to be. You can fix nearly anything. My Dinner With Andre was engaging. Bottle episodes can be great. 4’33” is a famous piece of music. Anything can be good.
@128/jofesh: “And after they shut down BS, how and why was he able to come back to life and effortlessly take over the ship, and suddenly roam around without his pretty fiber optic cable?”
The cable was still plugged into the back of his neck, as you can see in the fourth image in the review. It was just long enough for him to reah the door. As for how he was able to reactivate himself, presumably they don’t understand all his capabilities, because he’s a new creation.
FWIW, Terry Matalas just retweeted his old tweet saying that Janeway will not be appearing in Star Trek: PIcard. I get the feeling he’s doing it out of respect for the creators of Prodigy–like he views Janeway as their baby for now.
I think he just keeps name-dropping her to establish that she’s a very important person in Starfleet.
jofesh: Please read what I wrote again. The trope I was specifically referring to was the bad guy being in prison and monologuing, not monloguing in general.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Mary: Eh. Show-runners lie all the time. (I still remember being at a Buffy the Vampire Slayer panel in 1998 when Joss Whedon told a large room packed with fans that the second Slayer thing was played out after the Kendra character, and they weren’t going to dip into that well again. Two months later, “Faith, Hope, and Trick” aired, providing a second Slayer who would remain a recurring character for the rest of the run of the show.)
I will believe that Janeway isn’t in this season when this season is over and she hasn’t appeared, not when someone tweets.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Maybe the cameo will be the Emergency Admiralty Hologram Janeway.
KRAD, I’m with you about Janeway. The fact that they can’t reach her has become a plot point, not just a casual reference. At this point, it would be criminal of the showrunners to resolve that with Janeway off-screen (or worse, to let the thread drop altogether).
@118 – “Section 31 is not an intelligence agency. That’s Starfleet Intelligence. ”
Worf said, when they were on Daystrom Station that Section 31 is “Critical division of Starfleet Intelligence “.
It’s likely that most of Starfleet was unaware of Section 31 being part of Starfleet Intelligence if they were aware of it at all. If they don’t see it on the organization charts, of course they’re going to assume that it’s not part of Starfleet. However, Worf, who we know works woth Starfleet Intelligence, says that they are not only a division of SI, but a critical one at that.
Can people be surprised by that information? Yes they can. Can they be appalled that Starfleet would operate such a division? Again, yes. Can it be denied? Not at this point. The evidence is too strong that not only is S31 a part of SI, but it always has been. The whole “it’a bunch of renegades running an unsanctioned organization” was just a cover. We’ve seen on Discovery that S31 actually operated in plain view at least for a time as well. If nothing was “formally set up”, why are they operating on a Starfleet ship with their own distinctive com badges? “Oh, those guys? We have no idea who they are. They just showed up one day.
What bugs me about Section 31 is not the idea that there would be a rogue agency within Starfleet Intelligence, but the idea that it’s just become a naturalized part of the setting. Like, I didn’t like its usage on Deep Space Nine, but at least there the focus was on “How do we get rid of this rot that has taken hold in the heart of the Federation?” Over it’s subsequent appearances, it has gradually become more and more “Badass black-ops guys who do what must be done” and they’re still out there committing unforgivable war crimes, but, eh, nothing to be done about it. Apparently, even in a fictional post-scarcity humanist utopia, the idea of abolishing the security state is too radical to be taken seriously.
#136. Well said.
I didn’t mind S31 in DS9 all that much. It was novel at the time (partly due, I imagine, to Trek wanting to take advantage of X-Files/conspiracy mania), and it made sense within the context of a desperate war for survival, but since then it keeps coming back like it’s just another part of the Trek universe. No thanks.
Plus, too often these shadowy conspiracies become a storytelling crutch. We have a plot hole here. Or this doesn’t make sense within the universe we know. How did this happen? Oh but it’s Section 31! They know things. They can do things our heroes can’t. Uh huh, might as well say an evil wizard did it.
krad@132, I have it on good authority from John Harrison himself that no one involved in Star Trek would ever try clumsily to conceal a gigantic reveal by denying its existence.
@136 – 137 – For me, the big problem was when it was introduced on Enterprise. So there’s been this super secret agency running around for hundreds of years and nobody has been able to stop them? Then Discover not only had them operating openly in the pre-TOS area. but finding out that S31 is still around in the 31st century. Either Starfleet didn’t want them to be disbanded or Starfleet has been incompetent for centuries.
And yet we’ve been teased for several years now with a whole series about Section 31 on the horizon, as if they’re an agency of anti-heroes to be championed. On the one hand, I love Michelle Yeoh and enjoy her chewing scenery as a maniacal tyrant, on the other hand, Section 31 is the very antithesis of Federation ideals and the far-future, enlightened human utopia that Gene Roddenberry envisioned.
An episode with quite a bit of spinning, but not quite enough thread – though I’ll reserve my final judgement until we’ve seen the next episode (since we only have one half of the sandwich, we can’t judge our meal).
For the record, I’m also glad to glimpse Mr Tuvok (albeit through a glass, darkly) though one hopes this sort of appearance will be a special treat, rather than a steady diet – the great challenge of any shared universe being, of course, how to strike a balance between the desire to see old friends and the chance to meet interesting new people.
@139.kkozoriz: Or that groups with much the same mentality have used the same name across various periods of history in order to project a spurious sense of Institutional legacy – Section 31 doesn’t keep appearing because they never go away, they keep reappearing because the brand is infinitely exploitable.
I mean, it’s all-but-canon that the version of Section 31 that they had in Discovery was abolished after the events of Season 2, isn’t it? Or am I misremembering the epilogue at the end of “Such Sweet Sorrow”?
@142 & 143 – As stated, Worf alls them a critical division of Starfleet Intelligence. It’s more likely that they simply were slipped back into the shadows by Starfleet, deciding that they did their “best work” out of the public eye.
@143/jaimebabb: “I mean, it’s all-but-canon that the version of Section 31 that they had in Discovery was abolished after the events of Season 2, isn’t it? Or am I misremembering the epilogue at the end of “Such Sweet Sorrow”?”
I thought so too, but it seems we both misremembered. According to the Memory Alpha episode summary, the decision was to put Ash Tyler put in charge of reorganizing/reforming Section 31 to make it more transparent and answerable — pretty much the opposite of what would lead to its DS9-era status.
And I thought I heard Worf say it was a criminal division of Starfleet Intelligence, but Alpha says it’s been called a “critical division” in both DSC and PIC. That’s a weird thing to call it, since it sounds like they’re saying it’s an essential or indispensable division. I think maybe they mean it’s a division called on in times of crisis, but if so, that’s not really the right way to use the word, as far as I know.
In “Inquisition”, Sloan refers to Section 31 as “another branch of Starfleet Intelligence” and later states “Section 31 was part of the original Starfleet charter”, to which Bashir replies “But that was 200 years ago. Are you telling me you’ve been operating on your own ever since?” The ending of the episode makes it pretty clear that there are people throughout Starfleet that know about Section 31 but turn a blind eye to them, with Sisko noting “Starfleet Command doesn’t acknowledge its existence but they don’t deny it either.”
In “Divergence”, Archer learns that Harris used to work for Starfleet Security but there’s no record of him for the last five years. When he claims Starfleet would never authorise what Harris is doing, Harris replies “Reread the charter. Article 14, Section 31. There are a few lines that make an allowance for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat.” This is a bit more ambiguous, but again the implication is that they’re a department that consider themselves part of Starfleet.
As already noted, Discovery Season 2 then sees them operating openly to Starfleet and ends with Tyler being put in charge of them in order to reform them…which has apparently failed by the DS9 era, when instead of becoming more transparent as the interrogator suggested there, they’ve become more secretive.
Maybe I’ve missed something crucial but I don’t believe there’s been any mention of them existing in the 31st century in Discovery? Certainly Memory Alpha doesn’t have anything about them beyond the timeframe of Picard Season 3.
@146/cap-mjb: “When he claims Starfleet would never authorise what Harris is doing, Harris replies “Reread the charter. Article 14, Section 31. There are a few lines that make an allowance for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat.” This is a bit more ambiguous, but again the implication is that they’re a department that consider themselves part of Starfleet.”
Which doesn’t mean that’s actually what the framers of the charter intended, just that that’s how they choose to interpret “making an allowance.” I mean, the fact that they have to name themselves after a charter clause whose language they claim as their justification is pretty clear evidence that their existence is not genuinely authorized, because if it were, they’d be an actual agency with a name of their own. We don’t call the Supreme Court “Article III” or the IRS “Amendment 16.” Naming themselves after the thing they point at to say “See, we’re entitled to exist” is really defensive and insecure, like they’re hiding behind the charter language to give themselves an excuse.
And no, as far as I recall, there’s been no mention of a 32nd-century Section 31, and I hope it stays that way.
@147 I know this is not exactly what you’re referencing, but legal professionals frequently refer to the federal courts as “Article III courts.” Article III itself is pretty vague on courts other than the Supreme Court, just that Congress may create “inferior courts.” That’s more specific than Section 31, but not that much more.
With Ro Laren coming back and now Tuvok, I’m desperately hoping for O’Brien and Barclay.
@149/Matt C: I believe Matalas has alluded to the fact there was a prominent TNG character he tried to get to return on Picard but scheduling difficulties didn’t make that possible. I’m guessing that would be in regards to O’Brien. But who knows? Maybe that was regarding Barclay. So I think one or the other will turn up but not both.
@149 @150 Matalas has lamented on more than one occasion that they weren’t able to get Colm Meaney, and Dwight Schultz only seems to do voice acting these days (maybe those rumors about his political beliefs sinking his career are false?). I don’t think we’ll see either of them.
Colm Meaney is in a movie that’s made by Sky, Marlowe, in the UK (along pretty strong cast) that’s been trailed now. So scheduling could’ve been a problem with him unfortunately. Could’ve killed 2 birds with one stone with him (DS9 and TNG).
@145: As of year 2023, the word “critical” appears to mean “controversial” a lot of the time – on two or more sides of some political arguments, I think, but I’m not sure of that. Perhaps Worf is using it in that sense.
@153/Robert Carnegie
No, I don’t recall critical meaning the same as controversial. I took Worf’s statement to mean “critical” as in “important” which suggests to me that Section 31 has found some degree of legitimacy in the last 25 years.
@155/Mary: Except that according to Memory Alpha, Discovery used the exact same description for the Section 31 of the 2250s. And in either era, the idea that a group whose exclusive purpose is to operate outside of law and morality is “critical” — that unethical methods are more important to the Federation than ethical ones, and are even required — is an obscenity, anathema to everything Star Trek is supposed to be about.
@156/Christopher
But it *was* legitimate in the Disco era. Then it apparently went underground and is legitimate again.
I don’t love the idea of Section 31 either. So, I’m hoping with legitimacy comes greater oversight. Or really, any oversight!
@157/Mary: “But it *was* legitimate in the Disco era. Then it apparently went underground and is legitimate again.”
Claiming it was ever legitimate is a major retcon from how DS9 portrayed it. I mean, nobody in DS9 had ever heard of it, which is implausible if it was openly known to be part of Starfleet a century before. At most, they’d think it was a relic of history that was no longer active, rather than being completely unfamiliar with it.
Also, can you really call it “legitimate” if its explicit purpose is to break the rules? I could buy that it might be an unofficially sanctioned black-ops division, like the Impossible Missions Force was in the original Mission: Impossible TV series — an independent operation secretly sanctioned by the government but operating off the books and unofficially so that the government has deniability if its members are exposed. That seems to be similar to the relationship Starfleet had with 31 during the Dominion War. But that’s not legitimacy, it’s sanctioned illegitimacy.
And my point is that even if you accept the premise that a black-ops organization may occasionally be necessary for threats that can’t be dealt with legally — which I do not accept, since history shows that such operations generally do more harm to the country’s security in the long run, so it’s really just an excuse for corruption — it’s still outrageous to say that such a thing is “critical,” i.e. the most important part of the intelligence agency. It should be an exception, used only grudgingly when all else fails. So “critical” is a bizarre and disturbing word for it.
@158/Christopher
i meant legitimate in the sense that both Pike and Admiral Cornwell had heard of it. It apparently wasn’t a secret during the time of Discovery.. And, yes, it was completely a retcon of DS9 but that’s what Disco portrayed. Pike was just a captain and he knew about it even though he didn’t like it.
Speaking of Section 31 & Discovery. It’s been a while and my memory’s faulty.(also, I didn’t like the develpment). But wasn’t Section 31 in charge of Control and the admiralty sent Control information regularly for analysis?
So I think some people need to read up a bit on what real world intelligence agencies do. If you think it’s just gather intelligence then you are completely ignorant of recent American history. Also, most actual countries have multiple intelligence agencies. As for the Federation being beyond all that… there are so many episodes of TNG where Starfleet brass does immoral and illegal stuff. Then there’s the huge conspiracy to murder a foreign leader on a mission of peace involving Starfleet officers in Star Trek VI. Heck there’s an episode in the original series where they fight a nasty little proxy war with the Klingons and pretty much destroy a culture in the process. (Though Kirk feels real guilty about it). I mean obviously the world of Star Trek isn’t “The Expanse” and the Federation isn’t Earth and Mars with their foot on the Belters necks. But it isn’t some world of perfect people and systems with no evil or conflict either. And thank goodness! I wouldn’t buy that world and even if I did it would make for painfully boring fiction. I don’t even think there’d be anything to learn or think about from stories about a world as two dimensional as that.
@161 – The Enterprise Incident – The Federation authorizes a mission across the neutral zone, which has been indicated to be an act of war, in order to steal a piece of technology.