When writing the script for the original series’ “Space Seed,” Gene L. Coon and Carey Wilber probably figured that setting the devastating Eugenics Wars some thirty years in the future was a safe bet. After all, television as a popular medium was less than two decades old at that point. By the time the actual 1990s rolled around, who was going to remember a line from a 1967 TV episode?
Obviously, the answer was “a lot of people.” The latest episode of SNW is a wacky time-travel adventure that is the latest attempt to reconcile Trek’s predicted future with the reality that has ensued.
The incarnations of Trek that aired during the period that Spock said the Eugenics Wars took place pretty much just ignored it. When TNG and DS9 did time travel episodes, they went to times other than contemporary-with-when-it-was-filmed Earth (“Time’s Arrow” went to the nineteenth century, “Past Tense” went to the twenty-first), and Voyager’s foray into the 1990s (“Future’s End”) made no mention of the Eugenics Wars one way or the other.
However, “Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow” contrives to put La’an and an alternate timeline version of James T. Kirk (played once again by Paul Wesley) in twenty-first-century Toronto. The alternate timeline part happens because a time traveler (who we eventually find out is an agent from the Department of Temporal Investigations, an organization introduced in DS9’s “Trials and Tribble-ations,” but which apparently doesn’t yet exist in Pike’s era) shows up in front of La’an in an Enterprise corridor with a fatal gunshot wound. He hands a strange device to La’an, tells her to get to the bridge, and then dies. However, the temporal agent’s death results in a changed timeline. The Enterprise is in service of the United Earth Fleet, with Kirk in command. Earth is in conflict with both the Vulcans and the Romulans, and “Earth” there is largely symbolic as the planet itself is all but uninhabitable. Kirk himself has never been, having been born and mostly lived in space.
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Nobody recognizes La’an, and when she tries to explain herself to Kirk, he’s skeptical for obvious reasons. When she refuses to turn the device from the temporal agent over to him, he tries to grab it, and it sends them both back in time to Toronto.
(The funniest line in the entire episode, to me at least, was Kirk guessing that they were in New York City. Given the number of times that Toronto has stood in for the Big Apple in productions filmed in Canada to save money, I laughed my ass off at that one.)
For the second time, Wesley isn’t playing the Jim Kirk we all know and love from three years on live-action TV, two years on animated TV, and seven movies, but rather one from a different time track. La’an and Kirk spend a lot of time comparing their timelines, and it soon becomes evident that La’an is from the nicer one. At one point, Kirk is gobsmacked by the beauty of an Earth sunset, which he’s never seen. Later, when trying to justify why he won’t help La’an by saying his might be the more worthy timeline, La’an tartly points out that her Earth has sunsets.
That’s not what does it, though. It’s when La’an informs him that, while she’s never met her version of Kirk, she serves with his brother, and Kirk’s devastated “Sam’s alive?” changes everything.
Wesley has a difficult task in this episode, even more so than he did in “A Quality of Mercy.” In that first-season episode, there was a crisis, so there wasn’t much time for serious characterization. But the vast majority of “Tomorrow…” is him standing next to Christina Chong. And he has to be consistent with a performance that, charitably speaking, has been impersonated and lampooned unto death over the past 57 years.
The choice Wesley makes is to pick the quieter bits of William Shatner’s characterization. The Kirk he’s channeling is the one who played chess with Spock and bantered with Gary Mitchell in “Where No Man Has Gone Before,” who had a relaxed conversation with McCoy while wandering the pastoral landscape in “Shore Leave,” who took Scotty on an Argelian pub crawl at the top of “Wolf in the Fold,” who started the marriage ceremony and later quietly upbraided Stiles in “Balance of Terror.”
It helps that Wesley and Chong have superb chemistry, to the point that the inevitable kiss actually does feel earned. And the episode scored several points with me by having Kirk and La’an obtain local currency by having Kirk hustle chess. (Recall that the very first image we got of Kirk was of him kicking Spock’s ass at three-dimensional chess…)
A recently completed bridge explodes, and La’an belatedly realizes that that’s the bridge the agent wanted her to go to. However, that’s not the turning point, as both Kirk and La’an remember the bridge explosion from their respective histories.

Eventually, it becomes clear why La’an in particular was chosen by the dying agent: she can get into the Noonien-Singh Institute, which is the target of our bad guys, because she has the family’s genetic markers, which enables her to get past security. That institute, which has a cold fusion generator, is the next Toronto-based target. That’s something Kirk remembers but La’an does not.
What’s more, Kirk has no response to La’an’s family name. At first, this is a character bit—La’an for the first time in her life not being judged by who she’s descended from—but it quickly becomes a plot point. The saboteur who destroyed the bridge and who plans to blow up the cold fusion generator (which destroyed all of Toronto in Kirk’s timeline) is a Romulan agent sent back in time (played by Adelaide Kane). It’s not clear what era she’s from, but she manages to tie together Enterprise and “Space Seed” by saying that tons of time travelers have tried to adjust human history around the events of the Eugenics Wars, making a reference to it supposed to have happened in 1992 and lamenting that she’s been stuck on Earth for decades, and also referring to temporal wars that were fought over humanity’s development. This officially means that scripter/consulting producer David Reed has put more thought into the Temporal Cold War that we saw throughout Enterprise’s run than anybody who wrote for Enterprise did.
(Why La’an didn’t just change her damn name remains, as ever, an exercise for the viewer…)
The Romulan time traveler—who starts out pretending to be a conspiracy theorist who thinks that Kirk and La’an are also that—wants to keep the Eugenics Wars from happening. When Kirk and La’an’s presence ruins her blow-up-the-generator plan, she goes for Plan B: kill the young child in the room that’s labelled “Khan.”
La’an manages to stop her, but not before she shoots and kills Kirk. And when confronted by the child iteration of her brutal ancestor, who caused so much suffering, but who was apparently the crucible through which the united Earth and later the Federation was born.
Amusingly, this moves everything up. Originally the Eugenics Wars were posited as World War III. Later, WW3 was altered to a twenty-first-century conflict, with the Eugenics Wars still considered to have happened in the 1990s. (Greg Cox wrote a brilliant two-book series The Eugenics Wars: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh, which reconciled the Eugenics Wars with the real history of the 1990s. The books are brilliant, and I strongly recommend them.) Now, the third World War—which we saw the fallout of in TNG’s “Encounter at Farpoint,” the movie First Contact, and the TV series Enterprise—has gone back to being the result of the Eugenics Wars, based, not just on this episode, but what was mentioned by Pike in “Strange New Worlds” and the file Adam Soong had in hand in Picard’s “Farewell.”
And the constant time travel mishegoss is why there is such confusion. Heck, Spock himself said in “Space Seed” said that records of the time were fragmentary…
The most entertaining part of this episode, however, is the use of Pelia. We open with La’an dealing with various security issues, including the very large number of items in Pelia’s quarters, some of which seem to be stolen artifacts. When in twenty-first-century Toronto, La’an recalls Pelia saying she still has a place in Vermont, and she and Kirk go there in the hopes of getting the engineer’s help.
However, in a hilarious touch, it turns out—to La’an’s chagrin and Kirk’s bitter amusement—that Pelia didn’t start studying engineering until some time between the twenty-first and twenty-third centuries. So she’s of no direct practical help…

Carol Kane (no relation to Adelaide) is an absolute treasure, and her mischievous smile from “The Broken Circle” now has a bit of background to it. Gonna be fun to explore this character.
The rest of the cast gets very little to do, as it’s almost entirely a two-person play. Which is fine, mind you, as Chong and Wesley work beautifully together. It’s not clear how Spock came to even exist in Kirk’s timeline, though he’s the captain of a Vulcan warship there. (Kirk states at one poitn that he was in a Denobulan prison for a while with a Vulcan cellmate, who taught him both the neck pinch and how to make plomeek soup in the toilet, so maybe Sarek and Amanda came across each other in a prison or something…) Everybody else gets pretty much a token scene to justify their place in the opening credits. (M’Benga sparring with La’an, no doubt taking advantage of Babs Olusanmokun’s black belt in jiu-jitsu; Uhura and Ortegas on the bridge of Kirk’s alternate Enterprise; Pike and Number One having a frank discussion with Pelia about her hoarding. We never do see Chapel…)
In the end, La’an saves the timeline, and is visited by another DTI agent who cautions her against ever discussing this mission with anyone, and who also takes back the time-travel device. La’an manufactures an excuse to contact Lieutenant James T. Kirk (probably on the Farragut, though that’s not clear), thus finally allowing Wesley to play the mainline Kirk, though only briefly over a screen.
On the one hand, this is a pretty bog-standard time-travel adventure, of which Trek has had, frankly, too many. Filming in contemporary Toronto no doubt saved some money, and we had enough of this nonsense in Picard season two. And a proper examination of the ethics of killing Khan as a child never really happens. Still, it’s an engaging adventure and does some nice work with La’an. Kirk is the first person she’s dealt with who doesn’t judge her on the basis of her ancestry. For all that Kirk has an earned reputation as being somewhat prolific with women, the character has an undeniable charm that makes that busy love life pretty convincing. Wesley has at the very least a version of Shatner’s charm, and that makes his romance with La’an quite convincing. Though her breaking down and crying at the end after talking to the mainline Kirk was a bit much…
Keith R.A. DeCandido will have a short story in the historic anthology Weird Tales: 100 Years of Weird, edited by Jonathan Maberry, celebrating a century of Weird Tales magazine, now available for preorder and being released in October from Blackstone Publishing. Keith’s story is called “Prezzo,” taking place on the Lower East Side of Manhattan in the 1930s, and about Italian immigrants, racial prejudice, and scary monsters. More info here.
I would say that La’an breaking down at the end of the episode wasn’t just over talking to Lt. Jim, but over everything that happened and that was the last straw.
As for her not changing her name, she probably believes she shouldn’t have to. It’s an issue for other people and their preconceptions.
See, I loved that bit with La’an. Due to her last name (and likely the harrowing childhood that she had) she has almost never been able to connect with anyone. This could be the first time she felt safe enough to have a romantic connection. Having that so briefly and then watching it be ripped away must be incredibly difficult. Also, she can’t even talk about it with anyone. Tough stuff for the character and a great performance by the actor.
Thanks for the shout-out to my EUGENICS WARS novels.
Needless to say, I was fascinated by this episode, and not just because of the Khan connection. I’m a sucker for stories where Star Trek heroes visit “our” time: “Tomorrow is Yesterday,” “Assignment: Earth,” the whale movie, etc.
One twist I didn’t see coming because it subverted expectations: the twist that our friendly 21st century ally, “Sarah,” was actually the bad guy. I assumed that she was just the latest variation on Roberta Lincoln, Gillian Taylor, Rain Robinson, so that big reveal completely caught me offguard — which was probably the idea.
@1 It’s the Michael Bolton principle. “Why should I have to change my name? He’s the one who sucks!”
I really appreciate the approach that Paul Wesley is taking to Kirk, even if the results still aren’t quite there. He clearly understands who the character really is apart from the “drifted” cultural perception of him. I also thought of him stunning Spock at chess when he sat at the board, though I’m skeptical that chess hustling would be so profitable.
I’m still not totally sure how to process the retkhanning of the Eugenics Wars here. On the one hand, I do understand pushing it to later in the timeline because the 1990s were pretty awesome. On the other, I don’t like that they called attention to that fact with the Romulan agent’s comment that he was supposed to take power in 1992. It gives fuel to the idea that Discovery and SNW do not take place in the “Prime Timeline,” but in a rebooted one that’s not bound to the future depicted in TNG onward. Boimler and Mariner popping in later this season makes it even more confusing.
I also thought kiddie Khan was maybe a little too normal for somebody who grows up to be a cold, calculating megalomaniacal mass murderer. I was expecting to see at least a couple of his adult traits at that age. Maybe they’re repeating the message from last week that genetic engineering doesn’t make somebody a monster on its own. Or maybe his engineering just isn’t finished yet. Props for casting an actual Indian child to play Khan, though.
As much as I’m enjoying this season so far, I really hope that we get to see Pike take center stage again soon. There are too few episodes to not get enough Captain Dad in them.
Honestly I didn’t know if I would like this episode (I feel like Khan overstayed his welcome, you can blame Star Trek Into Darkness) and I wasn’t sure of Wesley’s portrayal of Kirk, so I was glad when I walked away really liking the episode.
It reminded me alot about the Eugenics Wars novel (totally recommend them, they’re great). And Khan actually looked like he was from India this time instead of a tan Spaniard or British white guy.
Season is 2 for 3 so far (wasn’t big on the premiere episode) for me!
There’s a very subtle bit of characterization for Khan’s short appearance on screen (now at last being of Indian descent). Khan’s initial reaction is that he thinks she’s here to kill him and then he acts hopeful that she’s there to rescue him. Khan was not raised in a home but in a lab like Homelander.
Very much by that psychopath from Picard.
@6 The fact that it’s called the Noonien-Singh Institute makes me think that Khan’s parents (or whatever) were extremely wealthy monsters who wanted a “perfect” child to save the human race or some such garbage, and they collaborated with Adam Soong to make it happen. I don’t think Khan needs a tragic backstory, but that’s not a bad one.
I agree that the chemistry between the actors was phenomenal and since it’s almost a right of passage to do a historical time travel story and a fantasy travel story in every trek series we can now check SNW off the list.
I was struck by the interesting philosophical quandary which did not get enough play here- if you can travel back in time to kill a tyrant (say, Hitler) to save millions of lives, should you. Perhaps the failing here was that alt-Kirks timeline was so wrong that took away from this impact. If Kirk had been from a timeline where Earth was just really isolationist instead of teetering on the edge than it would be a bigger conversation about who was from the “right” timeline.
I’m enjoying the first few episodes of the season and that it shows how good the cast is that it can produce good episodes without Anson Mount. I understand the reasons why he had limited availability, I just hope it doesn’t mean we get all Anson ALL the time in the second half of the season
@7 Which would explain how that Soong from Enterprise had access to that group of augments.
Also did the episode just declare that Romulans killed Kennedy? That’s an interesting twist..
This was an enjoyable episode. Not as good as the first two this season but still very good.
I loved that Toronto was actually Toronto. That’s rarely ever done on TV so I thought it was cool.
Paul Wesley’s Kirk is great. He has the bravado and the charm. I also love the fact that 1) he can’t drive in any timeline and 2) he’s a “chess shark” here. However, I’m really curious to see more of Kirk in the main timeline.
I’m not crazy about the Khan retcon—if you can even call it that. It’s just that for 30-plus years I thought Khan was from the 1990’s and the Eugenic Wars & WWIII were two entirely separate things. Now, we have Khan’s rise being probably about 2048 (I’m guessing 25 years from present day) which is only 15 years before First Contact. Which, frankly, does make a lot of sense. Like I said, it just screwed with my preconceived notions.
It was great seeing Pelia in the 21st century. Her acquiring Earth treasures is on the one hand, funny, and on the other hand, just wrong. But I loved the line that she has a place in Vermont in case this no-money thing is “just a fad.” LOL.
And I admit, I cried at the end when La’an contacted Kirk because she just had to know if he was still alive. It was a powerful moment.
BTW, the kid who played young Khan is Desmond Sivan who, like the first guy to play Khan, is actually Latinx by heritage. (Another recent role of his was as the little-kid version of Gabriel Luna’s character in flashbacks on FUBAR.) So they, in fact, do not get props for casting an actual Indian, though Sivan can pass for Indian naturally, unlike Ricardo Montalban….
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@12 I hope that was actually the thinking behind choosing Sivan in particular, because that’s honestly kind of hilarious.
JasonD and Chase: I dunno, man, if I was born with the last name “Hitler,” I would do everything in my power to change it the nanosecond I was of age to do so……
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
What about the multitudes descended from Genghis Khan? Despite being descended from a man who harrowed Eurasia, I think it’s safe to say that there’s no risk of that particular surname being lost to the ages (I suspect for the same reason ‘Singh’ is not extinct in the STAR TREK timeline – it’s an extremely ubiquitous name and has been carried by aforesaid multitudes for much longer than it’s been associated with a single dictator – himself described as not even the worst of the worst (and that doesn’t even get into ‘Singh’ being deeply associated with a whole darned Relgion, Sikhism).
That analogy doesn’t work, though, since Genghis Khan isn’t as reviled in Asia as he is in the West. He’s considered a great cultural founder hero in Mongolia and much of Asia, much like Alexander the Great is in the West. Both Alexander and Genghis were brutal to their enemies but benevolent and tolerant to those who joined them willingly, both built huge multicultural empires (though Genghis’s was far bigger and lasted much longer after his death), and both East and West emphasize the good side of their own guy and downplay their bad side. So it’s not like Hitler, who’s reviled as deeply in his own country as everywhere else.
Also, Genghis Khan’s actual name was Temujin. Genghis or Chinggis is an honorific of uncertain meaning, and Khan is basically Mongolian for “king.”
Hitler had a great-nephew who lived in Patchogue on Long Island. His father, Hitler’s half-brother. did in fact change the name.
Okay, a lot to unpack here. Unfortunate that most of the conversation about this episode (including mine) is likely to focus on the continuity revelations in the climax rather than the overall story. It’s a pretty solid time travel story overall, with La’an and Kirk making a nice double act. I like the premise of having the two people thrown into the past together being from competing timelines and thus not starting on the same page about whose should win out — although I do find it highly contrived that two members of Pike’s crew have met alternate-reality versions of James T. Kirk within three months of each other (since the reference to Una’s welcome-back party puts this shortly after “Ad Astra,” which was about 2 months after “The Quality of Mercy”).
Paul Wesley was definitely better as Kirk this time around, both in terms of resemblance to Shatner’s version and in general performance terms. I’m glad the writing of the character was fairly authentic and didn’t play into the myths. Yes, he had a tentative romance with La’an, but like many of Kirk’s most meaningful romances, it happened when he was away from the role of captain for a time and able to let his guard down. And there were other elements true to the real Kirk, like his skill at chess, and his lack of skill at driving cars (though he had a pretty fast learning curve).
This was clearly a money-saving episode, with lots of location work, present-day costumes and vehicles, few aliens, and a moderate amount of VFX. But it was refreshing to see a time-travel story set outside the US, even if it was just the place the show is filmed.
As soon as Pelia was revealed as extremely long-lived in her debut episode, I had a feeling she’d be La’an’s contact in the past in this episode. Maybe they knew we’d anticipate that, since they did a nice fakeout by having her turn out not to be an engineer yet.
I wish I’d known Sarah was Adelaide Kane, who was one of my favorites from the cast of Power Rangers RPM, easily the strongest cast in Power Rangers history, including several people who went on to more prominent careers (Eka Darville and Rose McGowan being the others). I thought she looked familiar, but I couldn’t place her.
One thing that bugged me was the revelation that Romulans — apparently not from the future — have been meddling in Earth history to slow our progress for generations. That’s a really big deal. But I wonder if it could be a side effect of the Temporal Cold War meddling Sarah mentioned, a way to explain why space travel in our timeline is so much less advanced than it was in the original TOS timeline.
Okay, so now we get to the big revelation. For years now, I’ve been annoyed by all the people online insisting without evidence that the new shows were in a different timeline from TOS, when it was clear they were intended to be the same basic timeline but making the kind of nuanced continuity adjustments that are inevitable in any long-running fictional franchise (like Marvel Comics, where the timeline of past events keeps getting revised to keep the characters the same age over the decades). TOS itself made many such adjustments, like James R. Kirk becoming James T. Kirk and the Earth ship Enterprise becoming a Federation ship midway through season 1 (and the alternate E here was a nice nod to that). TNG did too, with Data being capable of emotion for the first couple of seasons before he was retconned as incapable of it, and the Federation being in peacetime in the early seasons but then season 4 retconning in a Cardassian war that ended only a year before. Not alternate timelines, just revisions of a work of make-believe that pretends things are still consistent in-universe.
But now, it’s been made textual that TOS is indeed in a somewhat different timeline than SNW. It seems that present and near-future events are presumed to be pretty much the same; we know from “A Quality of Mercy” that Spock’s future is “required” to unfold the way we know it for the universe to work out right. But from what Sarah said, past events have been rearranged, with things that originally happened one way still happening a different way later on, so that timeline changes correct themselves to something approximately the same in the long run. It’s very much like the approach to Skynet in the Terminator sequels and The Sarah Connor Chronicles: Even if you prevent one origin of Skynet, another one happens later and the future converges onto the same path. Although in this case, I think it was more implied that it was the corrective interventions of TCW factions that cancelled out the changes made by their enemies and put things back onto essentially the preferred path.
Now, I can see the narrative benefit of this. It allows reconciling new Trek with our own time while justifying the changes from TOS’s depictions of Earth history that have now elapsed. It somewhat allows them to have their cake and eat it too, saying that everything still happened the same way except when it didn’t, and that it’s mostly 20th/21st-century history that’s been revised while the 23rd century is still basically the same except for different set and costume designs and some moderately more advanced technology (e.g. transporter biofilters already existing). It also creates flexibility for changes in how characters like Spock and Chapel are depicted, so the writers aren’t as rigidly bound by continuity.
But the downside for me is that the overall Trek chronology I’ve maintained for decades is pretty much blown out of the water now. There are at least two, possibly more distinct versions of 20th- and 21st-century history now, and perhaps two different 23rd centuries as well. The question is, where is the line drawn? Which series and films count in which version of the Prime timeline? The same overall broad-strokes events may still happen in both, but there’s still a dividing line somewhere.
My preference would be to put TOS, TAS, and the original-cast movies in the “original” Prime timeline and everything since then in the “current” one. TOS is the one series that feels the most separate from the rest, due to its ’60s attitudes and production values, and due to creating the biggest contradictions with real history. TNG established a few things about the 21st century that may be hard to reconcile now, but TNG is heavily referenced by Lower Decks, which is having a crossover with SNW, and so forth. So it’s probably easiest to fit all the revival series together as a distinct continuity from the original, while assuming that a fairly close version of TOS’s events still happens in the current timeline (just without all the sexism and old-style equipment).
And hey, this is good for me, since it lets me say that my Uhura-focus novel Living Memory still takes place in the “original” TOS continuity, since I no longer have to keep it consistent with the “current,” post-TCW version of the timeline.
So in some ways this is liberating and positive, but it still turns Trek continuity into a hell of a mess that we’re going to be arguing over for decades (not that we haven’t been already). Like all good answers, it raises a wealth of new questions.
@12: aw, lame.
@15 One way to fix that! Wormhole Death Cannon! Let Davidians eat whole timelines!
I forgot to mention–I love the idea that though timelines may change through meddling, certain events could still happen-but differently, because that was my approach to rewatching Enterprise last year. I wanted to know how the events went down before the Temporal Cold War. I decided that originally, they still had to contend with Suliban terrorists and they still had to enter the Delphic Expanse. It’s just that the reasons and situations were different.
This kind of feels like reviving an old tradition. Poor La’an has picked up Miles place. La’an Must Suffer episodes had better not become the norm because I’m feeling a bit moe over her at the moment.
I was expecting Pelia to show up to her cabin to talk since while she is from the current timeline, she’d also be fully aware of what happened, though maybe she forgot since she’s bad with faces. I’m wondering though if she did remember and told La’an about her place in Vermont on purpose. Dangling thread…
Kirk hustling chess was a nice touch. A bit more efficient means of getting money that his prime counterparts previous attempts. I appreciate him being able to drive so well and wonder where he picked up the skills.
I’m very mad at myself for not IMMEDIATELY zeroing Tenaya 7, Adelaide Kane, who I have always wanted cast as a Liberated Borg. I adore her, and having her and Carol Kane back to back in the credits was adorable. She killed it as she usually does in everything, and I really loved her rant about temporal wars at the end there, being stuck on 20th and 21st century Earth as a Romulan from the future must’ve been a special hell of being assigned to Antarctica.
La’an must not have any notable increase in physical strength from her genetic legacy, as an Augment versus a Romulan should be a pretty good fight, but “Sarah” was portrayed properly as being stupidly strong.
La’an’s declaration of her name was also wonderful, she knows the terrible things that come about from Khan, and she knows she’s one of the few goods things. I’d like to hope that she gains perspective that Khan also through his villainy led to the Federation, which means that more good came from it than just her.
I also think that her sparing Khan wasn’t just about the timeline. I say that because she dried his tears. She wasn’t looking at the conqueror and the monster and the tyrant, but a scared little boy. She didn’t have to take the time to comfort him, but she did want to see him. I wonder why she chose to temporal transport out in line of sight of him though….leaving the gun on his desk might’ve also been a bad idea.
The kiss though, I thought, “Jim Kirk strikes again”, but it was cool. They were a pretty good double act. I also appreciate the joke of UEF Kirk being born on the USS Iowa, as opposed to Prime Kirk being born in the state of Iowa, versus Kelvin Kirk not making it to be born in Iowa.
It’s one thing for Kirk to fight for the United Earth’s future and not be swayed by being allies with aliens, but a timeline where his brother is alive. The way Wesley played it “Sam’s Alive?” That hit like a truck, bravo.
I thought it was a bit slow in places, but it was a very enjoyable character piece. Wesley’s Kirk does seem a bit…off and I don’t know why he isn’t hitting right. Maybe the voice…on the other hand I like him.
As for timeline changes (STO’s Daniels: “TIMELINE CHANGE IMMINENT!“) I’m basically taking the approach of nothing established is changed until directly contradicted. It seems though that the Prime Timeline is Prime because it’s the one that temporal changes most actively revert to. Sarah observed as Annorax found out, that time doesn’t like being messed with and tends to mess back. Maybe causality is a two way street. Once something has happened, a cause, the effect exists to ensure the cause as well. The echo, restoring the voice.
@16 Loungesheep Too soon… some of still haven’t gotten over Coda and the loss of 20 years of our reading history into a now deleted branch timeline….
Further thoughts: On casting a Latinx actor as Khan, I’ll point out again that Sikhism is a religion, not an ethnicity, so there’s really no reason Khan has to be South Asian, especially if he’s the product of a eugenics program.
One thing that’s bugged me about La’an from the start is that Khan’s name was Khan Noonien Singh, not Khan Noonien-Singh. It’s a middle name and surname, not a hyphenated surname. But this episode actually helped justify that. If the timeline has been altered by temporal cold warriors and others have tried to put it back to some semblance of its normal state, it could be that someone engineered the founding of a “Noonien-Singh Institute” that would give Khan that surname in order to ensure that a version of the important historical figure still existed, give or take a hyphen. It’s ridiculous, but so is time travel fiction in general.
It’s interesting how vague the episode was about exactly when it was set. It seemed to be roughly the present, though, since Sera (not Sarah) said she’d been stuck on Earth for 30 years after arriving to intervene in events meant to occur in 1992. Although that doesn’t really work, though, because Khan and the other Augments took power in 1992, so they must’ve been adults then. I guess maybe her mission was to kill Khan as an adult before he took power, but the revised timeline gave her a chance to kill him as a child.
Portraying DTI agents as actual time travelers goes against how I portrayed the 24th-century version in the novels, where their goal is to try to prevent time travel as much as possible. But the graphic the dying agent showed La’an was, according to a tweet I saw, the same as the one used by Starfleet’s 29th-century Temporal Integrity Commission in VGR: “Relativity.” So it was probably a future version of the DTI, centuries beyond “my” version. Also, the agent said the DTI doesn’t exist yet in La’an’s time, which is consistent with the novel continuity, where it’s founded in 2270, a decade after this. (Although that novel continuity has already been overwritten by Picard.)
I’m surprised to see on Memory Alpha that there was a stunt double for Babs Olusanmokun. I thought the point of having him spar with La’an was to show off the actor’s own martial arts skills.
On the subject of continuity with TOS, it bugged me when Pelia mentioned that the Federation’s moneyless economy already existed, when in TOS there were plenty of references to capitalism, wealth, and payment for Starfleet personnel. I suppose that could be another timeline shift, or it could be that the moneyless utopia existed on Earth and the core worlds while capitalism was still around on the frontier. And of course, a post-scarcity society doesn’t preclude capitalism from existing; it just makes it an optional activity rather than a requirement for survival.
It makes perfect sense that the family name would have changed over time – since while names are reasonably consistent (Thomas, Richard and Henry have been in use for a long time) there’s a good deal of adaptation based on personal preference when It comes to (For example) using or not using a hyphen.
Heck, let’s not even get STARTED on spelling and it’s ability to change faster than the average dinner order.
My initial objection was that “Noonien” was Khan’s middle name, not part of his surname. You wouldn’t expect Ralph Waldo Emerson’s descendants to have the surname Waldo-Emerson.
Looking into Sikh names a little more on Wikipedia, though, it seems that “Noonien” would actually be Khan’s surname and “Singh” his Khalsa name, the epithet adopted on becoming an initiated Sikh. So it’s plausible that his descendants would use the Noonien surname. But the problem is that Singh is a masculine Khalsa name, and women use Kaur instead. So if La’an were a Sikh, she’d be La’an Noonien Kaur (or La’an Kaur Noonien, or just La’an Kaur since initiated Sikhs often drop their family names), and if she’s not a Sikh, she’d just be La’an Noonien. So making her name “Noonien-Singh” is just strange on multiple levels. Unless one of her parents was named Noonien and married a person coincidentally named Singh as a surname rather than a Sikh Khalsa name.
I don’t have Paramount+, but a couple of general observations based on TOS, DS9 and Enterprise
1) Spock admits that records from the Eugenics Wars/WW3 are fragmentary. Thus I don’t have an issue with the timeline shifting those events to the mid 21st century.
2) The Bell Riots in 2024 San Francisco and the concept of sanctuary cities although most likely unthinkable when Past Tense aired are frighteningly close to events that have happened in recent years (for example the protests against uneven treatment of BIPOC by Police).
3) In the timeline of this episode Earth and Vulcan aren’t “allies”. As such Vulcan is most likely still run by the High Command and as such are probably more aggressive than the 23rd century Vulcans in the main timeline. It wouldn’t surprise me if Amanda was the survivor of a Battle between Earth and Vulcan (with Sarek being on a Vulcan ship at the time). Sarek then goes through Pon Farr and mates with Amanda, resulting in Spock. Remember that in the timeline of this episode, Archer didn’t return Surak’s Katra to return Vulcan to a society that shunned violence wherever possible.
@17/Mary: I believe the intent of Enterprise was always that the events of the series, TCW included, were the events that created the TOS/TNG timeline we knew, changing it from something different we didn’t see. It was never made explicit that Agent Daniels’s future was the same one that TOS and the other series happened in, just one where a version of the Federation existed. The point of the show, as season 4 made very clear, was always to lead to the Trek timeline we knew, not away from it like the Kelvin films.
Now, though, I may have to reassess that. As you say, the idea here seems to be that the broad-strokes events still happen but the way they happen can be altered.
@18/mr_d: Ohhh, yeah, that directorial oversight really ticked me off. She just casually left a loaded gun in a little boy’s room???? What the hell kind of security officer does that?
@16 Coda still makes me so cross, especially as it is so bloody (indeed so very bloody) unnecessary.
@@@@@ 19, 23: Yeah I get that, I’ve found it kinda hard to read any Star Trek since, even harder to read the relaunch Treks. But Coda was just done so well.
Mostly a good episode. I enjoyed it up until they entered the lab at the end. Wasn’t a big fan of the ending simply because the attempts at joining up 20th/21st continuity don’t really appeal to me, plus I thought the Romulans made for a poor antagonist here (and the solution of just shooting the Romulan agent to death is very dull). The message of “maybe we need a eugenics-based campaign of genocide and torture to wake us up a bit” is one that doesn’t really click with me too.
Up until the finale though it was great fun. Paul Wesley’s Kirk doesn’t really feel like Shatner’s Kirk, but it doesn’t need to – like Peck and Gooding, he’s managed to portray a new character who has echoes of the TOS character but still feels fresh and dynamic in a way that complements the original, rather than mimicking or replacing it. Chong also deserves credit for superb work throughout, of course.
One thing I took away from this is Pelia at the start referring to Earth as being a “no money socialist utopia” (or words to that effect). Unless I’m forgetting something, that’s the first time Star Trek has outright referred to Earth’s society with the word “socialist”, which is nice, even if it does rub up against parts of TOS. I also noticed that La’an indicated that vehicles aren’t privately owned in the future. The fan discussions about whether or not the Federation has private property and to what extent have always interested me (the classic being “why does Picard get a big vineyard and is that his private land”, obviously) so La’an’s line there was good stuff to think about.
The sudden cut to Kirk being forcefully arrested was probably the biggest laugh of the series so far.
@22/Christopher-
Ah, okay. See, I hate the idea of paradoxes so watching Enterprise, all I thought about was what was the original timeline like? It never occurred to me that the later shows grew from the events of the TCW. I thought those events had always happened.
@25 I was bothered by the socialism reference as well, because as has been pointed out there really isn’t any on screen evidence that the Federation in general or Earth in particular aren’t actually socialist societies (and quite a bit to the contrary). It’s a fantasy economic universe that defies real-world labels, and I definitely prefer keeping it that way. Maybe Pelia meant it in a flippant way.
Quoth Christopher: “I’m surprised to see on Memory Alpha that there was a stunt double for Babs Olusanmokun. I thought the point of having him spar with La’an was to show off the actor’s own martial arts skills.”
That is likely for insurance reasons.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@25/Descent:”…a eugenics-based campaign of genocide and torture…”
Despite what Into Darkness claimed about genocide, “Space Seed” established that under Khan’s rule, there were “no massacres.” He was supposed to be a fairly benevolent tyrant, and the wars were not race wars directed against non-Augments, but battles for supremacy among the dozens of Augment dictators who’d seized power around the world. It was Colonel Green who was the genocidal one.
Although it’s possible now, perhaps even probable, that STID’s version of Khan is from one of the TCW-altered histories and may indeed have been genocidal. Maybe MontalKhan, CumberKhan, and SivanKhan are three different timeline variants resulting from different TCW interventions.
Incidentally, I believe I was the first person to propose the TCW having an effect on the Eugenics Wars, in Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock. I figured it made sense for the Future Guy behind the Suliban’s genetic enhancements to be responsible for other genetic enhancements to other renegade groups in various eras. I also wanted to account for why the 1960s genetic science depicted in Greg Cox’s Eugenics Wars novels was so anachronistically advanced.
“Unless I’m forgetting something, that’s the first time Star Trek has outright referred to Earth’s society with the word “socialist”, which is nice, even if it does rub up against parts of TOS.”
Best not to fall into the trap of assuming that every word spoken by every character in a story is objectively accurate. Pelia’s statement is only evidence for her own opinion of the Federation, an opinion that’s shaped by her very long history and might be an anachronistic notion. Remember, she didn’t even know lasers were real in the 2020s, 60 years after their invention. So she’s not exactly a reliable narrator.
Although, of course, there are a lot of things in present-day American culture that are essentially socialist (at least the way the term tends to be used today), like public education, public roads, fire departments, Social Security (right there in the name), Medicare, any services that are provided by the government for the public good instead of by private industry for their own profit.
“I also noticed that La’an indicated that vehicles aren’t privately owned in the future. The fan discussions about whether or not the Federation has private property and to what extent have always interested me (the classic being “why does Picard get a big vineyard and is that his private land”, obviously) so La’an’s line there was good stuff to think about.”
Oh, that’s about a much nearer future than that. We already have rental services like Zipcar where you can reserve one of a fleet of cars for short-term personal use, much like the shared bike and scooter services that are also around these days. I’ve seen it conjectured that that might become a standard thing over the next few decades, and that people owning their own cars might become a luxury.
@26/Mary: “See, I hate the idea of paradoxes so watching Enterprise, all I thought about was what was the original timeline like? It never occurred to me that the later shows grew from the events of the TCW. I thought those events had always happened.”
It’s only a paradox if you assume the order in which we watched the stories somehow constitutes the causal order in which the different timelines “happened” relative to each other. I’ve always found it strange when people assume that, given that the whole nature of time travel stories is that things are experienced out of order.
I’d imagine that public transit access in the 23rd century is so robust that there isn’t really any need for private vehicle ownership for the vast majority of Earth’s inhabitants. It’d be the province of collectors of antiques or people who live in remote or extremely rural areas.
A 23rd century human would probably be appalled that so much of the 20th and early 21st century was spent neglecting or dismantling mass transit infrastructure in favor of spending countless resources and kilometers of livable space on 18-lane highways and massive parking lots for millions and millions of privately-owned individual vehicles.
Are these the same time cops we saw in “Future’s End” and “Relativity”?
There’s a quote, something to the effect that, “After an excellent performance, the audience applauds enthusiastically, but after a SUPERB performance, the audience sits in silence, because they are stunned.”
I’m stunned.
And you know me — I have something to say about everything. :-) But I feel as if I have no words equal to what we just saw.
Christina Chong was excellent, and the writing was so affecting. Before the episode, I thought I’d be grinning after a fun little time-travel romp. Instead I am crying, because La’an went through so much and can’t even TELL anyone about it, and she has so very much buried trauma already. I so wanted to hold her while she was crying.
Stunning. I’d never heard of David Reed before, but he wrote this so very well!
@32 Reed is credited as the writer of episode 6 of this season as well, which I believe is also supposed to heavily feature Kirk. Maybe he’s the designated Kirk scribe?
@1, if you change your name you’re giving the f***ers a win. I like her character. She’s flawed and knows it, but doesn’t back away from it.
All La’an would need to do is drop the Noonien part from her name. Singh is such a common surname it probably wouldn’t be an issue.
Which is what this series should’ve done from the get-go. Making it ambiguous as to whether or not she’s related to Khan would’ve made it more interesting, in my opinion. I mean, if they felt they really needed to do that. I thought the whole thing with the Gorn was enough baggage for one character.
La’an in this episode refers to the Lanthanites as ‘ancient sect of beings.” Could it be that they aren’t all members of the same species?
Great review and commentary as usual krad but I would have to join the others in suggesting that La’an’s break down at the end was entirely realistic. This wasn’t just about finding out that her crush was alive in this timeline. Earlier in the episode she confides to Kirk about her difficulties in allowing people behind her emotional barriers, and the profound loneliness that results from that. I loved the kiss scene because it was so poignantly done. She craved it but was afraid of it at the same time. She obviously felt something for him from the beginning that she didn’t even know how to deal with, her standing watching him sleep earlier than episode was almost crushing to watch. There was something welling up inside of her and she did not know how to deal with it. For me the yearning look on Chong’s face as she stood there in the dim light of an impersonal hotel room of was both beautiful and somewhat sad, because Chong somehow managed to convey a sense of the years that La’an had spent emotionally isolated from almost everyone in her life. So circling back to her breakdown at the end, it wasn’t just relief that Kirk was alive. I got the sense that her brief time with Kirk opened doors in her psyche that she just found too intense to be able to deal with. I always liked La’an from the beginning, but after this episode, I’m fully invested in her. I hope the plotlines treat her well.
I love SNW. Count me as an unabashed fanboy
Add to that the almost irresistable temptation for the writers to make Kirk the object of a romance (and damn, wasn’t there chemistry all over the place), and they almost had to go this way.
And yeah….the isolation La’an endures….gonna make HER the crush of a lot of fans…
Quoth bgsu98: “Are these the same time cops we saw in “Future’s End” and “Relativity”?”
No, but they are — as I said in my review — the same ones we saw in “Trials and Tribble-ations.”
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@31/bgsu98: “Are these the same time cops we saw in “Future’s End” and “Relativity”?”
No. That was the Starfleet Temporal Integrity Commission. The Department of Temporal Investigations is part of the Federation’s civilian government, as you can tell by the fact that they wear suits instead of Starfleet uniforms.
Although the fact that the DTI agent’s device in the beginning showed La’an a graphic also seen aboard the Relativity in the episode of the same name suggests that he may be from the contemporary, 29th-century DTI.
@35/ferro: “All La’an would need to do is drop the Noonien part from her name. Singh is such a common surname it probably wouldn’t be an issue.”
It was in either “Ghosts of Illyria” or “Memento Mori” last season that they actually referred to her as “Lieutenant Noonien” and even edited the recap clip from the premiere to cut the “Singh” out of her self-introduction. So it seemed that they went back and forth about what to call her.
40.
Right, Lieutenant Noonien, I’d forgotten all about that. Strange choice.
@38,Gwangung
To circle back around to what I said early, I think she connected with her ancestor. A scared child in a prison cell, waiting to be killed or liberated, not unlike her experience with the Gorn. Lonely. What he would become did not break her connection to him. And I don’t think she wanted to, because for as terrible as he would become they were still family.
As far as changing her name, I don’t think it’s that simple. She can’t hide what she is. A medical examination, a look at her Starfleet record. And other people may not be willing to let her family forget who they are. Trying to hide it could be perceived as weakness, vulnerability. And we know La’an ain’t about that bull shit. She has emotions, and softness, and is human through and through, but she doesn’t back down, and she’s not gonna hide. La’an Noonien-Singh does not run. She knows who she is.
Yeah, the way we’re going is automated vehicles that we can pop in and out of. Insurance companies will love it when the human factor is taken out of driving. Cars will become a hobby like horses instead of a primary privately owned mode of transportation.
It’s hilarious that Pelia was hedging her bets, I guess when you see as much humanity as she has, you understand that humans gonna human, and that means backsliding.
But seriously for the love of god, someone hug La’an. I find it poignant and brutal that the episode starts with her refusing to talk to anyone about her problems and the end of it has her with all new problems that she desperately wants to talk about and being locked out of talking about them. DTI could’ve at least provided a counselor.
@38,Gwangung
To circle back around to what I said early, I think she connected with her ancestor. A scared child in a prison cell, waiting to be killed or liberated, not unlike her experience with the Gorn. Lonely. What he would become did not break her connection to him. And I don’t think she wanted to, because for as terrible as he would become they were still family.
As far as changing her name, I don’t think it’s that simple. She can’t hide what she is. A medical examination, a look at her Starfleet record. And other people may not be willing to let her family forget who they are. Trying to hide it could be perceived as weakness, vulnerability. And we know La’an ain’t about that bull shit. She has emotions, and softness, and is human through and through, but she doesn’t back down, and she’s not gonna hide. La’an Noonien-Singh does not run. She knows who she is.
Yeah, the way we’re going is automated vehicles that we can pop in and out of. Insurance companies will love it when the human factor is taken out of driving. Cars will become a hobby like horses instead of a primary privately owned mode of transportation.
It’s hilarious that Pelia was hedging her bets, I guess when you see as much humanity as she has, you understand that humans gonna human, and that means backsliding.
But seriously for the love of god, someone hug La’an. I find it poignant and brutal that the episode starts with her refusing to talk to anyone about her problems and the end of it has her with all new problems that she desperately wants to talk about and being locked out of talking about them. DTI could’ve at least provided a counselor.
42.
Trying to hide it could be perceived as weakness, vulnerability.
Was she raised on a Klingon planet? Why would that be an issue among humans, or anyone else, in the Federation? They’re supposed to better than this.
But then I still don’t understand why La’an gets a pass for having Augment blood but Una had to hide her true nature. Can someone explain that?
As sick as I am of time travel in Trek, I do at least like that we now FINALLY have an in-universe explanation for all the discrepancies, contradictions, and retcons re: the Eugenics Wars’ timeline in the decades since “Space Seed”.
Okay I am a Star Trek fan for life, but timey-wifey stuff breaks my brain. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can answer: When La’an leaves Khan’s room at the end, she leaves the gun on the counter where she placed it. And, wouldn’t Pelia remember seeing La’an and Kirk in the past. So I guess the real question is, if the timeline is reset, where does it move forward from. Thoughts are welcome.
SNW flexed continuity to needless degrees at various times, but generally speaking I never thought continuity wrinkles needed to be addressed or explained since they’d still persist regardless on the whims of the time and the story. Yeah, Star Trek’s timeline was looking more and more fantastical, but then so was Kubrick’s Space Odyssey well before 2001. It’s fiction. Just let it be.
I gotta say this episode was more miss than hit for me. La’an’s connections to Khan remain shoehorned and flimsy and for the love of Guinan can we please stop with Kirk? Adelaide Kane was not terribly convincing either. The ending was touching and the over-familiar displaced-from-time cliches still managed to draw some fun out, but not enough to hold up the whole hour. I’m starting to think SNW’s case of prequelitis is terminal.
@43/ferro: “But then I still don’t understand why La’an gets a pass for having Augment blood but Una had to hide her true nature. Can someone explain that?”
If Khan in this timeline was born c. 2010, then La’an 250 years later is probably 8-10 generations later, which means there’s a good chance she has little to no actual Augment DNA left in her genome, since it can take as little as 10 generations for there to be a high probability of inheriting zero genes from a specific ancestor. https://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/
If it’s ten generations, and if Khan mated with a non-Augment woman who was her ancestor, then that means that Khan would be only one of 1,024 ancestors from that generation. That’s really, really diluted. La’an does not have Augment abilities, as clearly demonstrated by how easily the Romulan Sera overpowered her. She just has enough remaining genetic markers to identify her as a member of the lineage.
@44/Mr. Magic: “I do at least like that we now FINALLY have an in-universe explanation for all the discrepancies, contradictions, and retcons re: the Eugenics Wars’ timeline in the decades since “Space Seed”.”
And much more than that — just the overall difference in how TOS portrayed the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the much more rapid progress of spaceflight, etc.
Anyway, it occurs to me that the first big retcon of history in that period was in “Encounter at Farpoint,” which established WWIII as a mid-21st century event when “Space Seed” had equated it with the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s. So I guess that reinforces my idea that the timeline shift puts TNG and after in the “current” timeline and TOS/TAS/the movies in the original. Maybe you could make a case for the movies being in the revised timeline, given the difference in tech, costume, and makeup designs between them and the series, but TWOK is explicit about Khan being exiled in 1996.
I’m a little on the fence about one of the developments in this episode. The suddenness of this Kirk’s death (predictable once La’an started hypothesizing about “rescuing” this alt-Kirk) reminded me of the cavalier way Tasha Yar was killed.
@krad There seems to be a concluding clause missing from “La’an manages to stop her, but not before she shoots and kills Kirk. And when confronted by the child iteration of her brutal ancestor, who caused so much suffering, but who was apparently the crucible through which the united Earth and later the Federation was born.”
@CLB:
And much more than that — just the overall difference in how TOS portrayed the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the much more rapid progress of spaceflight, etc.
Agreed. It’s a really simple, yet clever fix.
@15 – Christopher
I definitely feel bad that your wonderful Department of Temporal Corrections books and other continuity welding jobs have been overwritten by all of this as they really were a master-class in Star Trek continuity weaving. However, a part of me also notes that a lot of this episode actually reminded me of your books in that series as well as how they handled time travel within them. I especially like the fact that they bothered to return to the Temporal Cold War and did more with it in this episode than in four seasons of ENT.
One thing that I think was a failure of ENT is the fact that they really did ignore all the implications of the Temporal Cold War and the writers clearly thought, “This is the original timeline” when the changes were there from the start. Without the TCW, there never would be a Klingon arriving at Broken Bow and arguably the entirety of the NX-01 launch would never have happened and Archer would be most famous as a test pilot. Perhaps explaining why Daniels thought Archer wasn’t the world’s most important man when he brought him out of the timeline. Then there’s the massive change of the Xindi War that absolutely was not part of the original timeline because that was the result of the Sphere Builders. You can go with the idea they were all predestination paradoxes but it seems like a waste.
I actually really like this episode suggesting that the Star Trek timeline is in-universe always changing and updating as well as shifting but keeping certain anchor-points. It actually fits with the “Year of Hell” discussion by its Nemo-figure. While Paris says that’s just him being delusional, the idea it has “inertia” and is self-correcting (either due to laws of physics or beings above time like the Q) isn’t unreasonable in Trek. Given the out of universe retcons and constant updates to visuals, technology, and prequels–I think it’s perfectly reasonable to canonize this temporal fluidity.
Plus this episode does something I love and makes worthwhile speculation points. “Were the Romulans behind Future GuyTM? If so, does this mean this woman and Future Guy are at different points? Future Guy eventually says the Federation must exist so does tampering like this eventually backfire on them and they backtrack?” Hell, maybe the Romulans discover without the Federation that they get conquered by the Dominion or without them to evacuate, they are exterminated by the Klingons after their sun explodes or assimilated by the Borg.
The fact I’m thinking of these things is a sign it’s a top tier episode.
“And, wouldn’t Pelia remember seeing La’an and Kirk in the past.”
Pelia said herself she’s bad with with faces. As someone with, albeit mild, face blindness, I sometimes can’t remember someone I may have met a few months ago. Pelia’s got a couple of centuries to forget.
Does Sera free Kirk from the cops knowing that he and La’an are going to get her inside the Noonien-Singh institute?
I mean, clearly she does it so the writers can introduce the character and set up a plot twist. But is there an in-universe explanation? Can her plan only succeed if the DTI sends people back in time to stop it?
@krad and others: Lots of stunt doubles/fight choreographers say that an actor who sort of knows what they’re doing is more likely to accidentally injure someone than an actor who has no idea what they’re doing. I never did fight choreo professionally, but I remember it being much harder to knock someone down or flip them without hurting them than it is to do the same thing while letting them worry about themselves. Maybe Babs didn’t want to risk it
I quite liked this one. Obviously it wasn’t up there with the previous episode, which was one of Trek’s best, but it was still pretty good. I do wish that less time had been spent on the cold fusion red herring so that more could have been spent on the “should you kill a kid just because he grows up to be a monster” question, but really I just enjoyed myself. As for the discussion of what this episode means to the timeline(s) of Star Trek, I’ll let people with bigger brains than mine try to reason it out. It’s all just Star Trek to me.
@45 Terry
Okay I am a Star Trek fan for life, but timey-wifey stuff breaks my brain. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can answer: When La’an leaves Khan’s room at the end, she leaves the gun on the counter where she placed it. And, wouldn’t Pelia remember seeing La’an and Kirk in the past. So I guess the real question is, if the timeline is reset, where does it move forward from. Thoughts are welcome.
I do think Pelia recognized La’an on the bridge and knew this was the moment in the future La’an was from because of what La’an was wearing when she entered the bridge. I could be tripping but it looked like a light bulb went off and there was a look of recognition on her face.
@50/C.T. Phipps: “I definitely feel bad that your wonderful Department of Temporal Corrections books and other continuity welding jobs have been overwritten by all of this as they really were a master-class in Star Trek continuity weaving.”
No reason to feel bad about it. All of this is imaginary. It’s just exploring possibilities. As I often say, all science fiction will inevitably be contradicted by the passage of time. The goal of writing SF is not to “guess right,” because we never will. The goal is just to offer interesting conjectures. It’s all just might-have-beens, canon as much as anything else. As demonstrated by the way this canon episode overwrote past canon.
“However, a part of me also notes that a lot of this episode actually reminded me of your books in that series as well as how they handled time travel within them.”
Exactly. It’s not about whether the imaginary “facts” agree, it’s about how ideas and possibilities are explored. When SNW revealed a backstory for Uhura that disagreed with the one I’d offered in Living Memory not long before, I was disappointed that it got overwritten so soon, but I was mainly glad that the makers of canon had come to the same conclusion I had that Uhura deserved more backstory development.
“One thing that I think was a failure of ENT is the fact that they really did ignore all the implications of the Temporal Cold War and the writers clearly thought, “This is the original timeline” when the changes were there from the start.”
As I said above, there’s no reason to assume the TOS timeline wasn’t already the result of the TCW’s alterations, which is what I always took ENT to be implying. There’s no reason temporal causality is required to happen in the order we see the stories. And in a universe where time travel is so common, there’s no reason to think we’ve ever seen an “unaltered” version of the timeline.
In retrospect, though, given what this episode established, there’s more reason to believe that ENT is an altered timeline from TOS. Although it seems the alterations date at least as far back as the Eugenics Wars.
@52/Wyatt: Sera said it took her a while to recognize Kirk, so I doubt she knew right off who they were. I think she just wanted to learn more about these people who were prying into the bombing and seemed to know something about the explosives used. She couldn’t do that if the police hauled them off.
@43, Ferro
People are supposed to be better, but they’re not. Same people, more lessons learned, better society. But not perfect society, not perfect people. Lest you forget La’an also experienced Augment taunting, slurs, and bullying just like the Ilyrians did. They knew, and she couldn’t hide. So she doesn’t give people any openings. Bullies and bigots seize on any opportunity, she doesn’t give them any. It’s why she’s so alone.
Not as great as the last episode but a good one overall. They got to “Doctor Who” the timeline. A good use of Kirk and some fun. Really felt for La’an. I liked it.
But wow. I got flashes of Stranger Things in that lab. The gun. A boy who wants out. The bloodbath he’ll leave as he picks up the gun and frees his family.
And she disappears in front of him. Imagine how a young mind might reconcile all that.
I assume Sera intervened with the cops because she suspected they were Department of Temporal Investigations time cops. Which they were, though not quite the way she assumes. Using them to get into the Institute seems to have been a spur of the moment decision.
We know that without La’an and Kirk, she ends up coming up with a plan that ends up blowing up Toronto. Which I’m guessing kills her as well (and probably not part of her plan).
So them showing up and being able to get inside the building was convenient.
I liked this one quite a bit. It was lovely to see Toronto, a city with a lot of unique and bizarre architecture, playing itself for once (and I adored the gag of teasing that it was supposed to be New York even as the words “TORONTO EATON CENTRE” were clearly visible in the frame). It does, however, raise the question of how La’an and Kirk managed to cross the American border with no passports or IDs of any kind (though I loved that the taxi company in Vermont is apparently just called “Vermont Taxi”).
My only complaint is that I was hoping that the inherent conflict between characters from mutually exclusive timelines trying to alter history would be played-up a bit more, as I think that you could get some interesting discussion from that premise.
(It also occurs to me that the continuity established in this episode can be used to retcon some of the more baffling plot holes from Picard, season 2, namely by conjecturing that Q was trying egg on Dr. Soong in order to force the Romulan-altered timeline into something more closely resembling its “original” shape).
@60 La’an does tell Pelia that they bribed a border guard to get into the US. Presumably they bribed another on the way back. Risky though.
I want to know how they rented a nice hotel room without a credit card or ID. And why they rented such a big suite with only one bad rather than two smaller rooms or something.
@60: They mentioned to Pelia when they described their journey that they had to bribe border guards, etc.
I’m sorry KRAD, but you are wrong, wrong, wrong about the funniest line in this episode. It’s when Carol Kane bust out with “I still have a bunker in Vermont where I used to live in case this whole ‘no money socialist utopia thing’ turns out to be a fad.” I lol’d so hard I had to pause the episode.
” Though her breaking down and crying at the end after talking to the mainline Kirk was a bit much…”
I always enjoy reading your reviews, but this just does not seem correctly. It surprises me from someone who is normally attuned to authentic emotional responses (or lack thereof) in Trek television. La’an’s breakdown is exactly how I would imagine someone responding to the events of this episode.
But I’ll end on something we seem to agree on. Whether it was the writing or the directing, there was no excuse to have La’an leave a gun next to a kid and transport within his sight.
Of course, bribing a border agent just hours after a major terrorist attack just seems like a whole other can of worms.
I enjoyed this episode, especially given that I have the rare (at least here) perspective of not being a long-time Trek fan.
Up until the lockdown a few years ago, I had only ever seen one or two episodes of TOS in reruns plush the original cast movies–I grew up a Star Wars kid, and there didn’t seem to be room to be a fan of both franchises. But the lockdown did happen and I decided I would watch as much Trek as I can before I die, in timeline order. SNW has thrown me off course a little–I got through Enterprise, the first two seasons of Discovery, and the TOS pilot, and then had to decide whether to violate my own rule and jump into TOS before SNW started. I decided I needed to, since I have no way of predicting how many seasons this show will run or when each season is going to begin, and, well, I’m not getting any younger and Paramount Plus isn’t getting cheaper. (Plus, of course, the alarming streamer trend of dumping shows down a memory hole so they can stop paying actors and writers.)
I’m glad I made that decision, in retrospect–its been pretty wild jumping straight from my first watch of TOS episodes to this show because I can see the call-and-response in real time.
Digression: Honestly, TOS Season One almost turned me off of this whole project–the episodes right up until Space Seed vary wildly in quality and tone and are, frankly, weird, even in the context of it being “a different time.” From the theory that the thing that makes Kirk a “good” captain is being part rapist(!) and the thing that he desires most is to be able to beat the crap out of anyone who has ever bothered him, to the fact it was an apparent contract stipulation that Yeoman Rand be assaulted at least once every other episode, to the fact that Sulu somehow gets “promoted” from being head of a department to being the driver of the car, and on and on.
They’re also redundant–there were basically three plots that first half season: 1. Something causes a member or members of the crew to have a personality change. 2. A Godlike being (or beings, or an altered crew member) screws around with everyone. 3. The crew meets someone (or multiple someones) and finds out That They Are Not What They Seem. Rinse and repeat. I think only the Romulan episode (good) and maybe the court martial episode (ridiculous) break out of that rotation.
But then Space Seed happened, and I thought, Wow, that was good, like, all the way through,” and, magically, I got through the rest of the season without saying, “this is insane!” It’s such a sea change that I guess I’m now a Star Trek fan.
All of which is a very lengthy way of saying that this current episode really hit me where I live, because Space Seed is the episode that got me to stop making fun of Star Trek. I think the Kirk casting is a little off–I see a lot more Chris Pine in this guy than I do Shatner, and I don’t even see much Pine there, TBH. But get past that and this is the kind of episode that made me finally stop wondering why people were so attached to the original series in the first place. I agree totally with everything being said about Christina Chong’s performance and I enjoyed the plot mechanics. (Also, Carol Kane is truly a gift to us all, and we must make sure she is kept safe for a very long time).
I will say, however, that going down the rabbit hole of these recaps (and Reddit, and Wikipedia) has left me a little baffled and exhausted–I had no idea that it was such a Big Deal that the aesthetic of this show and Discovery don’t match TOS (and, since I watched Enterprise first, I didn’t quite get why people seem to hate that show–it wasn’t the best thing I ever saw, but I thought it was a perfectly entertaining piece of TV sci-fi).
So, I don’t really feel like an elaborate retcon was NEEDED for Khan and the Eugenics Wars. It’s been covered multiple times that there was a global cataclysm and records are sketchy.
Likewise, I don’t get why uniforms being different; technology being advanced beyond big buttons that say “JETTISON POD” on a Dymo Label Maker label (I’m sorry I keep harping on this episode but it just makes me laugh so much); weird Klingons; and teleporter chiefs with mutable ethnic backgrounds need to be “reconciled.” It’s 2023–we already have AI making “art” (when it figures out fingers it will be unstoppable). It seems to me that if you just watch these shows and pretend you’re someone from even further in the future than we’ve seen, watching “historical” records on a Holodeck, you can imagine that some of the programs may think starship crews wore iron-on patches, saved information on floppy disks, and were 96% Caucasian, and other AIs concluded otherwise.
Maybe the TOS program is the result of a far-future version of a Texas school board and the SNW program was made by future Californians? Does it really matter? Star Trek, as a whole, is being communicated to 49th century beings by unreliable narrators, hence 700 novels and comic book series and fan films that are so out of sync from one another we need two wikis in the 21st Century to track them. I can live with that–I already work with people 20 years younger than I who have no idea why the “Save” icon is a black square. I doubt anyone in the future is going to remember when we started using touch screens.
Oh, one more question. If we’re going to care about timelines and continuity, wouldn’t it have made more sense to get the actor who’s been playing Sam Kirk to shave off his mustache and have him play James T?
jaimebabb: La’an told Pelia that they bribed the border guard. Obviously Kirk won a lot of money hustling chess…..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Having crossed the Canadian border, I sincerely doubt it went beyond:
Obviously American Kirk and La’an: Hi, we lost our identification. We’re heading home after the terrorist attack.
Border Guard: I’m sorry, but you’ll have to contact your embassy.
Kirk: Here’s 200 bucks.
Border Guard: Go on through.
@15 why do you say the Romulans who meddled in earth’s history were not from the future? The stated goal of the meddling was to sow as much dissent as possible in order to prevent unification and eventual formation of ‘their greatest enemy’, the Federation. Doesn’t that presuppose knowledge of the future?
“Gene L. Coon and Carey Wilber probably figured that setting the devastating Eugenics Wars some thirty years in the future was a safe bet. After all, television as a popular medium was less than two decades old at that point. By the time the actual 1990s rolled around, who was going to remember a line from a 1967 TV episode?”
Though people might have looked at 47-year-old Ricardo Montalban, done some math about how old Khan was likely to be in 1992 when he’s running a substantial fraction of the planet, and noticed that the eugenics program that produced him kind of had to be active (and capable of producing a baby superman) pretty close to the original broadcast date. (Or before. With all respect to Alexander the Great, taking over a quarter of the world in one’s twenties is pretty precocious without hereditary monarchy as a springboard.)
@30:
As a life-long Torontonian and non-driver, it would have amused me to see La’an and Kirk try to navigate the Toronto transit system. Of course, the episode would have had to be about 20 minutes longer to accommodate the inevitable subway delay or streetcar short-turn they would encounter. ;)
Also speaking as a Torontonian, I have to admit that I spent far too much time, and had far too much fun, trying to identify all the locations. I know the square where they first materialized (Yonge/Dundas Square), the store where they stole their clothes (Roots in the Eaton Centre), Harbourfront, and the neighbourhood they were driving around while chasing the van (our business district downtown). The near-arrest took place outside the south entrance to the King Street subway station. (I’ve watched past productions film in that same location.) The Lakeview Restaurant is in Little Italy, which is west of downtown (and not that close to any of the other locations – and not that close to the lake, for that matter). I believe the kiss took place outside the Royal Ontario Museum – there was another scene also filmed outside the museum, with the Michael Lee-Chin Crystal visible. (It’s the rather ugly polyhedron protrusion from the museum’s facade.) I misidentified the location of the Noonien-Singh Institute – I thought it was the MaRS Discovery District, but it turned out it was the Royal Conservatory of Music.
Adelaide Kane?! I love hearing of her in anything, mainly because I still remember the days when she was considered a failed regular on Neighbours (they’ve even just stuck a couple of her episodes on Amazon Freevee!), treated shoddily and given so much undeserved flack that some fans (like to) believe her version of her character was erased from existence as thoroughly as the version of “Space Seed” made in 1967 was here. So I absolutely love every time she turns up in anything and shows that she had the last laugh!
This episode was a miss for me. It felt like I was watching Picard season 2 again. Filming the show in the real life city that the production takes place in, car chases, run ins with police, Romulan time agents, fixing the timeline, Khan and augments, etc.
And I didn’t feel that La’an and Kirk had good chemistry either. I know they had to fit the whole adventure into one episode but it felt like they got acclimated to the idea of time travel and alternate universes and how the world works in 21st century Toronto really fast and casually. Paul Wesley’s Kirk still doesn’t feel like Kirk even though we’ve so far only seen him in alternate universes (with the exception of the facetime call at the end of the episode).
Pelia’s appearances were the only bright points for me. The good thing about the episodic format is that every episode is different so if an episode is a miss, you don’t have to wait a year until the next season comes out. Just tune in next week. Which I indubitably will.
I don’t have time or energy to fashion connective tissue among my varied observations; sorry.
Christina Chong has been, is here, and I assume will keep being just absolutely fantastic to watch. The show’s cast is surprisingly magnetic on the whole but she’s an absolute stand-out to me.
I appreciate Paul Wesley’s job, although it’s been distracting to me since Discovery that Anson Mount’s Pike looks and sounds so much like William Shatner’s original Kirk; I’d have bought him in the role no question.
“she manages to tie together Enterprise and ‘Space Seed’ by saying that tons of time travelers have tried to adjust human history around the events of the Eugenics Wars, making a reference to it supposed to have happened in 1992 and lamenting that she’s been stuck on Earth for decades”
Me, I loved this. Which is entirely apart from my personal need to consider SNW a different timeline, by the way; I just find it an elegant nod/fix to how reality has played out in the decades since TOS.
Kirk being wrong as a riff on Toronto being shot for New York is surely part of the gag, but it was also hilarious that so many buildings in plain view were clearly marked “Toronto”.
I want to know why “Vanessa” popped into La’an’s head as her cover name.
Kirk obviously got them through border security by beating the guards at chess.
Not to revisit past disagreements over ethical carnivory in Trek, but the street-vendor hot dogs jumped out at me as a spectacularly bad choice from multiple perspectives, among them my having read that Paul Wesley is vegan.
I really wanted that DTI agent to tell La’an they had someone go retrieve the gun she left in Khan’s room; glad to see others found that such a glaring error.
Overall, I found this a very satisfying, quietly devastating episode with Chong in particular nailing the heartbreak of her situation.
To be fair, it doesn’t postulate it is an alternate timeline. It is postulating that it is an altered timeline.
To put it in simple terms:
SNW is set in “George McFly is a successful author” not “Mary’s original sucky family is wondering what happened to their son.”
If every change to the timeline created a new timeline then Star Trek as we know it hasn’t existed since “Tomorrow is Yesterday.”
@71/LongTimeLurker: “why do you say the Romulans who meddled in earth’s history were not from the future?”
The impression I got from Sera’s exposition was that she wasn’t with them, but considered them part of the original history she was trying to alter. I suppose I could’ve misunderstood.
@72/mschiffe: “Though people might have looked at 47-year-old Ricardo Montalban, done some math about how old Khan was likely to be in 1992 when he’s running a substantial fraction of the planet, and noticed that the eugenics program that produced him kind of had to be active (and capable of producing a baby superman) pretty close to the original broadcast date.”
Yes, that was probably the point all along. We tend to misunderstand the intent because TWOK retconned in the term “genetic engineering,” a phrase that hadn’t been coined yet in the ’60s, so we assume Khan’s people must’ve been created in a lab in one fell swoop. But the phrase actually used in “Space Seed” was “engineered through selective breeding,” i.e. the same multi-generational process used since antiquity to breed desirable traits into crops or livestock. When Carey Wilber wrote “Space Seed,” he was presumably thinking of the real-life eugenics movements that began in the 1880s and were prominent in the early 20th century, culminating with the Nazis. The implicit premise of “Space Seed” is that one of those generations-old eugenics programs actually succeeded in breeding “superior” humans where all the others had failed. TOS’s audience, only a couple of decades removed from WWII, would’ve probably recognized the reference to eugenics in those terms. (Note that Khan was originally going to be Harold Ericsson, a more obvious Nazi-ideal type. I appreciate the change in the final episode, since it’s logical that a eugenics program that incorporated ethnic diversity would be more successful than one based on racist assumptions of white superiority and purity, like all the real-world eugenics programs. A diverse gene pool is always more adaptive and robust than a uniform one.)
@77/C.T. Phipps: “To be fair, it doesn’t postulate it is an alternate timeline. It is postulating that it is an altered timeline.”
I’ll never understand why people think those are different things. That’s like saying a fire started by lightning is somehow fundamentally different from a fire started by an arsonist. The results are the same, the physics are the same, regardless of the cause.
For me, it’s that the previous timeline ceases to exist versus branches off into a separate one. In Back to the Future, George McFly goes from being a loser in an unhappy marriage to being a successful author. There is no loser McFly anymore. That’s what I mean by an “altered” timeline. While an alternate timeline would be if George was now split into two separate universes.
(I had to go look it up: I think “TCW” means Temporal Cold War)
I have mixed feelings on this one. The performances were great and when I got swept up in the character moments I really enjoyed it. But the actual plot and execution of the story I found clunky and dull. Like mirror universe episodes I feel Trek has done time travel episodes to death. If they’re going to revisit that gimmick (and especially the ‘fix the past to save the future’ trope) I feel it needs to be in the service of a great story and this episode did not have that. All that aside, Chong and Paul Wesley did a fantastic job and elevated the material. More often than not I had a great time watching. Not an episode I’m eager to rewatch but fun in the moment.
I think the writing and Chong’s performance really sold how compartmentalized La’an is. I think she and Spock share an interestingly similar mental landscape.
Something I’m finding odd this season is the amount of screen time with characters who are not core cast members. With a large ensemble and just ten episodes a season I find it a strange decision. It’s like constantly buying new toys when you haven’t played with the toys you already have.
Honestly I think they should have swapped Kirk out for any workable member of the core cast. It would I think made a much larger impact on La’an and for an audience already invested in the existing characters.
I seem to be in the minority but I really don’t care for Pelia. It’s partly due to the aforementioned toybox issue. But more importantly, at this point she’s just a collection of quirks buttressed by exposition from Spock telling the audience her backstory. It’s been about what she is and not who.
I also found it funny every time they said “cold fusion.” If it were even a thing it’d be like a modern mechanic going back in time and constantly saying “internal combustion engine.” Good drinking game candidate if that’s your cup of tea.
As an aside, I find myself really saddened by the approaching end of krad’s Star Trek rewatch. They’ve been a great motivation to go and rewatch episodes myself and enriched the experience of those episodes I’ve chosen myself. Before the parades start let me say: thank you, sir.
@80/kurtzwald: “Something I’m finding odd this season is the amount of screen time with characters who are not core cast members. With a large ensemble and just ten episodes a season I find it a strange decision.”
One: Anson Mount had a baby around the time the season was starting production, so the producers arranged things to allow him time for paternity leave.
Two: This is an ensemble cast, so the actors listed in the main titles are all equally “core” cast members. There were plenty of TNG episodes that barely featured Picard or Riker, DS9 episodes that barely featured Sisko or Kira, VGR episodes that barely featured Janeway or Chakotay.
“Honestly I think they should have swapped Kirk out for any workable member of the core cast. It would I think made a much larger impact on La’an and for an audience already invested in the existing characters.”
Who would count as a “workable” candidate for La’an to have a romance with? M’Benga? Chapel? Ortegas? They would’ve had to be an alternate-timeline version anyway, so they’d still be a stranger to her, so having it be an alternate version of someone she knows would add unnecessary baggage. The relationship here is very much a “getting to know you” kind of story, so it works if it’s someone La’an doesn’t know but who carries built-in meaning to the audience (even the SNW-exclusive audience, since they met another alternate Kirk three episodes ago).
Also, Kirk and La’an are both very driven, “married to the job” kind of people, so you need to get them both away from their ships and crews for an extended period to get to a point where they’d lower their guard and open up.
It’s a bit ridiculous how much this is just a speedrun of PIC Season 2. The MC has to travel back in time to stop an ancestor from being murdered, otherwise a crapsack dystopia happens. There’s a pseudo love interest that dies. There’s a Romulan agent in disguise as a human. There’s a near-immortal side character who is dealt with in both time periods. There’s time cops, and a car chase. There’s heavy feelings regarding a tortured backstory.
But this feels like PIC Season 2 done right, because the emotional dynamic between La’an and “Kirk” works.
That said, I feel a few things held the episode back. First, the expository-laden final scene between the “Romulan” and La’an was…bad. Like, the stuff the Romulan agent said was just terribly written, though I admit it’s hard to pull off time travel stories in general. My bigger issue, though, is I thought this was bush-league direction. Sure, the car chase was more competently done than in PIC Season 2, but beyond that, it just felt wrong to have such boring shots in a setting that was mundane to us. To the characters, the past is a weird alien place, and their fish out of water, and the shots really should have conveyed this more. Instead, it just felt like it transformed into a generic drama show as soon as they traveled into the 21st century.
Me: Can’t TALK to anybody? Doesn’t the Temporal-Whatsit Department have employee mental health services? Minimum, this is a weekly-therapy-visit for the forseeable future, on Temporal-Whatsit’s dime. Plus, how’s La’an getting paid for all that extra work, and who’s approving the hazard pay? :I need fanfic to address this with all due haste.:
After La’an returned to our Enterprise in her now-vintage outfit, I really expected some reaction from Pelia.
Maybe a surprised “oh, that’s why she looks so familiar” or a nodding “she’s now done whatever it was, so we can finally speak directly”
Even if La’an can’t go into the details of how she travelled back in time, DTI can’t object to her talking with Pelia about their shared experiences and the aftermath.
So the temporal agents have mastered ftl space travel as well as time travel? When La’an presses the button on the time device, not only does she and Kirk go back in time, but also from wherever they are in space to earth. (Nerdy nitpicks aside, I enjoyed the episode.)
If you just think of La’an crying at the end because a boy who kissed her has now never actually existed, it seems out of character, but once you realize he was the first person to see her without the baggage of her heritage, it works. The two main actors in this episode both did great jobs.
@86/a_risch: “So the temporal agents have mastered ftl space travel as well as time travel? When La’an presses the button on the time device, not only does she and Kirk go back in time, but also from wherever they are in space to earth.”
All time travel is space travel, because everything in the universe moves. If you start in your home and travel ten minutes into the future without moving from your starting point, you’ll materialize in the vacuum of space and suffocate to death, because Earth orbits at such high speed that it only takes seven minutes to traverse its own diameter.
Besides, we’ve seen countless earlier Trek time-travel stories where time travelers moved between distant star systems — “City on the Edge” and “Yesteryear,” “Time’s Arrow,” “Trials and Tribble-ations,” “Future’s End” and “Relativity,” “Shattered” (same ship, but over tens of thousands of light-years’ travel), “Shockwave,” “Carpenter Street,” “Storm Front,” etc. So why only call attention to it now?
@87/Chuk: I don’t think La’an crying was just about Kirk. She went through some very complicated feelings facing young Khan, confronting the hated ghost of her past as an innocent child. She’s gonna be wrestling with that for a long time.
@85 As someone who has a terrible memory for people as Pelia claims she does, I find it entirely plausible that she has no memory of someone she met for a few hours three centuries ago, even with the anachronistic clothes to jog her memory. For La’an and Kirk it was a race against time to determine the future, but for Pelia it was one weird day in a century where having to muddle through yet another World War may loom larger in her recollections.
Of course she also might have shut up because she didn’t want to get into it with Pike and Una present.
@86 The effect of the time travel device looked kind of like a transporter, so maybe it also uses Scotty’s transwarp beaming formula to move across space.
One detail I appreciate about this episode is that it remembers that fusion power exists in the Trek universe. Discovery always seemed to be trying to sell the audience on solar power, which I really can’t see surviving past the advent of the Fusion Era (as Spock called it in TVH).
Honestly? To me, this was possibly the best time travel story Trek has done since VOY’s “Timeless” or ENT’s “Twilight”. The plot itself may be an attempt to reconcile the Eugenics Wars across Trek continuity, but the actual story? This was SNW’s take on “The City on the Edge of Forever”. The ending is heartbreaking, and La’an can’t even open up about her experience to anyone afterwards.
This version of Kirk is not exactly playing the role of Edith Keeler (La’an doesn’t have any advance knowledge of how events must transpire, and his presence doesn’t affect the Romulans’ own actions), but the ending beats are pretty much the same. Her success is bittersweet. She can’t go back and change anything that happened. And she can’t talk about it. Heartbreaking.
I can’t recall the last time Trek had done a love story with a beginning, middle and end, in the same episode, and with people who never met before this convincingly. Kudos to both Paul Wesley and especially Christina Chong for making it look so easy and natural. She’s given a lot to carry, and she pulls every scene off.
I loved it that they’re both from competing timelines in a sense, and both have valid reasons for wanting to save everything they’ve known their whole lives. A great source of conflict between two heroes, even though Kirk acquiesces before the end (learning that Sam is alive on the Prime universe is a great incentive for him to sacrifice his own timeline).
More and more I enjoy Wesley as Kirk. I already gave his appearance a thumbs up last year. While he’s allowed a few more fish-out-of-water human moments in this outing (I pretty much lost it when he got stuck on the revolving doors – brilliant bit of physical comedy), he’s still playing him in an understated way that I really adore. This is the James T. Kirk devoid of the myth, the overacting and the caricature. The James T. Kirk who’s so commanding, confident and respectful that he would easily conquer the trust of the crew when the day comes in which Pike retires. I’ll take this version of the character over Chris Pine’s any day (and I liked Pine’s take).
@15/Christopher: What about Picard meeting Spock, Scotty and especially Kirk himself during the TNG era? Wouldn’t those be the same versions of the characters from the TOS era? Scotty was the miracle worker. Spock had century-old issues with Sarek, and Kirk still resented being taken out of the ship.
And also, TOS may have had references to capitalism, but Voyage Home had Kirk and Spock not knowing how much US$100 was worth during the pawn shop scene.
@82/ Karl Zimmerman – That just supports my view that Picard season 2, even with its subplots about Q, the Borg Queen, and Picard’s childhood trauma, had only about enough material for a three- or four-episode miniseries.
@90/Chase: “Discovery always seemed to be trying to sell the audience on solar power, which I really can’t see surviving past the advent of the Fusion Era (as Spock called it in TVH).”
Huh? Why in the world should it be a zero-sum choice? It makes sense to use every green power source you can — wind, water, solar, fusion, the works. They don’t preclude each other, they complement each other. Solar cells are increasingly inexpensive, and there are tons of empty places they can be erected. There’s no sense in not doing that just because you have fusion, any more than there’s sense in not having a saucepan because you have a dutch oven.
Also, of course, solar power is fusion power already; it’s just fusion power we get for free without having to build the reactor, because it’s already sitting there in space. It’d be silly not to take advantage of it when it’s right there.
“What about Picard meeting Spock, Scotty and especially Kirk himself during the TNG era? Wouldn’t those be the same versions of the characters from the TOS era? Scotty was the miracle worker. Spock had century-old issues with Sarek, and Kirk still resented being taken out of the ship.”
The idea is not that the timelines are completely different; again, “A Quality of Mercy” made it clear that Pike’s sacrifice is required so that Spock’s future can play out the canonical way. The intent is that, even if past events like the Eugenics Wars are changed to happen decades later and with different specifics, they’re similar enough to the original versions that the timeline converges back toward essentially the same 23rd century with the same people in it. The timeline shift allows for tweaking details like how the tech looks and operates, and it gives wiggle room for variation in character details like whether Spock and Chapel have a history. But the idea is that in broad strokes, these are still the same people who experienced generally the same events in life. The only parts that are changed are the parts that it’s no longer practical to keep unchanged.
After all, the narrative intent is to tell stories about the characters and universe we know, with certain details modernized as needed but the broad strokes still being the same. The timeline dynamic is just a handwave to justify that.
“…but Voyage Home had Kirk and Spock not knowing how much US$100 was worth during the pawn shop scene.”
I wouldn’t know the value of currency from 300 years ago either, but that doesn’t mean I don’t use money at all.
@81
Just to preface–if the choice is between tell the best story and use all the cast 10/10 tell the best story.
“This is an ensemble cast, so the actors listed in the main titles are all equally “core” cast members.”
I was thinking of guest stars like Ketoul last week or Pelia (who is guess is core cast this season but who I feel has been shoehorned into an already large ensemble) and now Kirk being a co-starring character in this week’s episode.
“Who would count as a “workable” candidate for La’an to have a romance with?”
To me the plot was about La’an making an emotional connection to someone, something she finds very difficult. I think showing it as a romance is more a matter of presentation. So having an opportunity to open up emotionally to a copy of someone she feels she cannot safely do in her reality would be tempting. For me, making it a cis romance is just one choice to show an emotional connection. It’s also If it’s not mandated to be a “romance” then it opens up opportunities with the main cast. But to answer you specifically I think Una or Spock could have provided interesting takes. La’an clearly idolizes Una prime but I think that comes with an obligation to present an idealized version of yourself. And I think Spock prime and La’an are far more alike than they may realize. (The whole no-Vulcans no-Federation wasn’t plot critical IMO). Not trying to ‘ship people but those are examples of ways I think the script could have used the core cast instead of a guest star.
If this were a 26 episode season of TNG with six more seasons to go I wouldn’t feel an opportunity cost.
@86
Also, FTL travel is potentially time travel too.
@86 A_risch,
Actually temporal Agents have had seemingly unlimited Transporter technology since the Voyager Temporal Integrity Commission episodes. The USS Relativity in particular was able to transport anywhere in time and at least anywhere in the galaxy. Beaming someone from Voyager in the Delta Quadrant and Voyager a few years earlier in Utopia Planitia were viewed with the exact same total lack of difficulty. Which makes sense. The critical factor in travel is not distance, but time. If you can travel to Alpha Centauri if you freeze time on your ship while it makes the journey then from your perspective when you arrive and time resumes the journey was long as walking through a door. If you can time travel by taking five years to go to Alpha Centauri at normal speed, then return going back in time five years to the day after you left, then you’re home before your kid’s next birthday. If you can control time and freely move backwards and forwards then distance becomes irrelevant. Or as a doctor once said, “The Predator has no fangs.” Star Trek has usually kept things very clean by Warp Drive at least since The Cage said “Time-Space Warp” by having time have no bearing on Warp Drive or other FTL devices by having them keep the same time frame as the universe around them, while still traveling at faster than light speeds, basically side stepping relativity. Which allows a lot of consistency and saves the timey wimey stuff for actual time travel incidents.
@90, Chase
Star Trek IV was very very very clear about this, Solar power is Earth’s primary power supply, “We cannot survive without the sun!” ~Admiral Cartwright
With generations of improvement on technology and likely a satellite network to reinforce it, solar is likely so cheap and easy that it’s de facto even with readily available fusion power.
Regarding La’an not changing her surname — isn’t it established, or at least suggested, that one of the reasons she’s wound up so tight is that she’s afraid there will turn out to be something dark inside her, some unwanted piece of Khan’s character hiding in her genetic makeup? That fear could lead her to preserve her surname as a constant reminder to be vigilant, and maybe she’s even hoping that it will lead others to not trust her too fully.
@95/mr_d: Right. And of course, any starfaring civilization is going to rely even more on solar/stellar power, because you can put collector satellites much closer to the star and not have an atmosphere absorbing it, so it’s the ultimate efficient power source. I mean, that’s what a Dyson sphere is, a solar array that surrounds the entire star. The Kardashev scale defines advanced civilizations by whether they make use of all the available energy of their planet (K I), star (K II), or galaxy (K III). As a civilization gets more advanced and its energy needs continue to grow, it becomes more and more necessary to harness every available energy source — fusion, solar, wind, water, geothermal, whatever you can use.
@76:
This may not be common elsewhere, but Toronto’s street dog vendors do tend to carry vegan hot dogs. The buns, on the other hand… they looked like whole wheat, and I’ve never seen a vendor here with whole wheat buns. (Besides, Paul Wesley may be vegan, but I don’t think James Kirk is supposed to be. He does, after all, order a chicken sandwich in “The Trouble With Tribbles.”)
Now, the poutine at the Lakeview Restaurant… I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a vegan poutine option anywhere. I’m not even sure how that would work. Poutine is French fries with cheese curds and gravy. Italian poutine (it’s not really Italian, that’s just the name) replaces the gravy with spaghetti sauce, but that’s more a Montreal thing.
I just realized that I forgot to register my nomination for the funniest line in the episode. It was Pelia’s comment that she hadn’t take a math class “since Pythagoras made it up.” As someone with a math degree, I particularly enjoy math jokes.
@98/ I’ve seen vegan poutine in Victoria; one imagines that they probably have it somewhere in Toronto too.
@12 / “BTW, the kid who played young Khan is Desmond Sivan who, like the first guy to play Khan, is actually Latinx by heritage. (Another recent role of his was as the little-kid version of Gabriel Luna’s character in flashbacks on FUBAR.) So they, in fact, do not get props for casting an actual Indian, though Sivan can pass for Indian naturally, unlike Ricardo Montalban….”
Anything to back up this claim? The only information I see online about this actor is that he was born in Toronto.
He may have played Latinx characters in other tv shows, but it would be very normal for an 11 year old from Toronto to have a Latin American mother and South Asian father, especially with a surname like “Sivan”..
@15. I’d put the dividing line between the Berman and Secret Hideout eras. The Berman-era Trek series all went out of their way to maintain timeline consistency (even when they didn’t really need to, as with the Qu’Vat virus). As you note, Lower Decks references TNG/DS9/Voy (as does Picard, of course), but it could easily be the “close-but-different” version of events (especially since SH seems to be deliberately keeping references vague for behind-the-scenes reasons [possibly related to residual-related chicanery]).
(This also lets me imagine the Relaunch-era novels [minus “Coda”] and the early, contradicted Discovery tie-ins as part of the “real” timeline, still happily chugging away elsewhere in the multiverse.)
@17, @50. That’s alluded to in the Abrams movies (and, IIRC, in Christopher’s DTI books as well); there seems to be a sort of “resonance” that causes certain events to play out even in different timelines (this would be why the same people seem to exist and encounter each other in the Prime, Mirror, and Kelvin timelines). It could also explain Kovich’s observation in Discovery that the Mirror Universe is “no longer accessible” by the 32nd century (i.e., it has diverged too much and is no longer “parallel”).
@20. When the Temporal Agent showed up at the end, I actually thought “Jena Noi?!” and headcanoned that she was passing herself off as a DTI agent for some reason (possibly just to cause a minor headache for Dulmur & Lucsly). ;)
@73. And yes, for those wondering, the Royal Conservatory of music is indeed right next to the ROM. No creative editing needed here (good luck figuring out the path of that car chase, though).
And the time gap between (OG) Khan in the 90s and WWIII in the 20XXs isn’t really a problem for me: look at our real-world timeline. The 90s are when Osama bin Laden solidified his power, which is one of the series of dominoes (9/11, the War on Terror, the increasing “Security” state, the mainlining of xenophobia) that lead to the current rise of right-wing extremism around the world (and which seems likely to lead to things like Sanctuary Districts and WWIII). Sometimes it takes a few decades for the wheels of history to turn.
@101/Cybersnark: “I’d put the dividing line between the Berman and Secret Hideout eras. The Berman-era Trek series all went out of their way to maintain timeline consistency (even when they didn’t really need to, as with the Qu’Vat virus).”
Within themselves, yes, but again, let’s remember that according to the episode, it’s late 20th and early 21st-century history that were altered, whereas both timelines converged on essentially the same 23rd century. SNW has made it clear that Pike’s and Spock’s futures are essentially the ones we know from TOS, even if the sets and costumes look different and there’s less sexism.
So the key difference should be in the depictions of the 20th/21st centuries, and that’s where TOS/TAS conflicts with everything after it, not only with the war but with the overall development of space travel being much faster than it turned out in reality. Roddenberry himself chose to push the timing of WWIII up from the 1990s to the mid-21st century in “Encounter at Farpoint.” That was the most drastic retconning of Trek’s historical timeline, and everything since “Farpoint” has been consistent with it.
(Granted, it’s not a perfect divide; e.g. TNG: “The Royale” posited the third attempt at a crewed interstellar probe being launched in 2037, only 14 years from now. But I’d find it too bothersome to split the continuity into too many alternate timelines. I’m content to treat most of the inconsistencies as what they actually are, just inconsistent claims in works of make-believe, and only invoke temporal changes when there’s a textual reason to do so.)
“When the Temporal Agent showed up at the end, I actually thought “Jena Noi?!” and headcanoned that she was passing herself off as a DTI agent for some reason”
Hmm, I hadn’t thought of it, but I can see the resemblance. Though she would’ve had to alter her ears to look human, at least.
“And the time gap between (OG) Khan in the 90s and WWIII in the 20XXs isn’t really a problem for me: look at our real-world timeline.”
Sure, it can be reconciled that way, and that’s how I reconciled it up until this week, but that requires ignoring “Space Seed”‘s explicit assertion that the Eugenics Wars were the last World War. There has always been an inconsistency between “Space Seed” and “Farpoint”/First Contact that we’ve had to pretend didn’t exist in order to reconcile them. But now we no longer have to. Now we have a textual, canonical way to resolve that inconsistency.
I’ve read a lot of your Star Trek recaps and rewatches, krad, and have to say I’m a little disappointed you didn’t mention she also appears to murder 3 unnamed security guards.
On an unrelated note, if you’re standing in front of a plate glass window and a giant bridge explodes two blocks away and directly in your line of sight, you and your window are going to suffer the consequences. See, e.g., what happened to the people filming the Beirut harbor explosion the other year from their balconies and living rooms. The whole scene screamed “this is fake CGI and not something to be taken seriously.”
Add me to the chorus praising Chong’s performance at the end. Her calling Kirk on a pretense, and then breaking down, was heartbreaking and completely believable. I thought the episode started out fairly weakly but got stronger as it went on and finished really well.
My complaint is that the end-of-episode temporal agent wears torture devices on her feet. I certainly hope that no future generations think that very high heels (and yikes, very skinny spikes!) are a good idea.
In fact, I hate the power-executive-woman garb in this episode and the previous one. It shows a severe lack of imagination by the costume designers. “Oh, we are so enlightened to cast black women in these roles, we don’t have to go beyond that.”
I’m also with truther @103 that the bridge explosion’s consequences were lacking, and the shooting of security guards gratuitous.
@37 fullyfunctional: So circling back to her breakdown at the end, it wasn’t just relief that Kirk was alive.
Relief that he was alive? I didn’t think so. It was disappointment at facing the fact that this Kirk is not “her” Kirk, isn’t it?
@98 lance_sibley: Pelia’s comment that she hadn’t take a math class “since Pythagoras made it up.” As someone with a math degree, I particularly enjoy math jokes.
That gets my vote too. I usually don’t get math jokes, but that one earned a guffaw.
@101: “(good luck figuring out the path of that car chase, though)”
I don’t think it was that egregious a violation of geography. They started out at Harbourfront and ended up at Jordan and Melinda, outside the south entrance to the King subway station. The easiest way I can see to make that work with what was shown on screen is if they took Lower Simcoe up to Front Street, took Front to John, took John one block north to Wellington, then turned east onto Wellington (which is where they passed the Ritz-Carleton). From there, they were shown turning left, which would have been into the Roy Thomson Hall underground parking lot:
Assuming there’s another exit (I’m not aware of one), they could have come back out onto Simcoe again, from which they could have gotten to Jordan Street by turning right on King – it’s only five blocks east of King and Simcoe. I’m just not sure where that alleyway is where the cop was parked – there’s an alley off Pearl Street, a block north of King, but based on Google Street View it doesn’t look like what we saw. Still, if they continued up Simcoe for that one extra block, they could have taken Pearl to either University or York, from which they could have turned back onto King and gotten to Jordan that way.
Yes, I’ve spent far too much time trying to figure this out.
All that research and I misspelled “Ritz-Carlton”. *sigh*
This is approximate, because I don’t think Google Maps will allow me to show a route that goes through the underground parking lot:
Just a note about changing your name – I get the feeling no one here ever has.
I changed my name as a teen to avoid discrimination.
And while it was fine for many years / I was able to live life with my new name and never refer to the former name, since 9/11 and the new age of terrorism everyone who has changed their name is expected to declare it constantly for legal forms, job applications, licenses, police checks (where I live, required for job applications).
So I can’t see this lessening but INCREASING and becoming entrenched in the future. To the point where one might not see any benefit in changing their name. It makes perfect sense to me La’an never changed her name. It truly is a scarlet letter.
From the amount of publicity Paul Wesley has received so far this season in the media, it seems to me this is truly a reboot and they will be “going there” and they might dispense all together with having a McCoy and Scotty, Sulu and Chekhov because, it works fine with the cast combination at the moment. Be careful what you wish for …
I disagree that La´Ans crying at the end was too much. She has found a person with whom she feels she can relax around and not be so isolated. And then that is all ripped away from her! Completely believable in my opinon.
@109/Emily: I still say that, no matter how fraught her feelings about Kirk, they’re going to be trivial compared to the emotional impact of meeting Khan. All her life, she’s hated Khan as this monster who left a terrifying legacy within her, someone she would probably have gladly gone back in time and killed given the chance, and now she met him as a frightened little boy and chose to save his life, and even comforted him and dried his tears. Her whole image of herself has been shattered and reassembled, and oh, incidentally, she’s responsible for ensuring that a great tyrant from history would grow up to inflict his acts of tyranny and violence. That’s far, far more to wrestle with than feeling sad about losing a guy she only knew for a couple of days.
She was crying at the end because she knows now that the man she saw shot dead is really lost to her.
And – since time fights back as the episode points out (how the Eugenics War keeps changing from one version of Trek to the next) that means if she meets up with this new Kirk she’ll most likely get him killed (again).
Apparently I made a mistake posting the last time, so here’s a potentially duplicate post:
Regarding the last name issue, I think La’an would prefer that people have their reaction to her ancestry early, rather than finding out after she’s become friends with them, under the principle that it’s more painful to lose a friend you’ve actually made when they find out you’ve been hiding something, than to never have had that friend at all
I’ve been saying I think the best place to split the timeline is between TOS/TAS and everything from TNG after. But it occurred to me this evening that if TNG/DS9/VGR were in a separate timeline from the later shows, it would reconcile the contradictory portrayals of Section 31, as a secret criminal cabal in DS9 and an authorized part of Starfleet in the later shows. So now I’m wondering if I should convert to the longstanding fan notion that the Temporal Cold War in Enterprise altered the timeline from the version seen in the earlier series. But we’ve still got the WWIII redating between TOS & TNG. So maybe there are three distinct timelines, with most of the same stuff happening but some subtle differences here and there — which would help reconcile the continuity problems between TNG/DS9 and Picard season 3.
Although, as with Spock and I’Chaya in “Yesteryear” or the subtle changes the DS9 crew made to the events of “The Trouble With Tribbles,” it’s not so much completely separate timelines as functionally the same timeline with certain continuity changes. We can treat the characters as effectively the same people, but with some alterations to their memories and context.
I always resist fans’ desire to use alternate timelines as a rationalization for storytellers’ continuity adjustments. Fictional series tweak their continuities all the time, and it’s only time travel-related when the story says it is. There’s a difference between in-story changes in the events themselves and metatextual changes in the depiction of the events. But now that we have a textual, canonical assertion that time travel has permanently altered the timeline, I have to admit it’s kind of liberating to embrace it as a way to make sense of major inconsistencies that I struggle to reconcile or overlook within a single continuity.
Although I worry that if I embrace it too fully, it would complicate keeping track of things way too much. What about the difference between early TNG where Data had emotions and the Federation had been at peace for a long time and later TNG when Data was emotionless and there’d been a recent Cardassian war? It’s probably best to use the time-travel fix judiciously, if at all. Maybe using it for the Section 31 thing is overkill.
@113 I just fall back on a variation of the idea that Rodenberry put out that each series is just a version of the tales, not “history” as such. Imperfect telling of stories. Things gotten right, things gotten wrong, the best we can hope for is a good story that advances positive ideals. Kinda like the Voyager story with the Doctor left behind in a museum… ;)
Silly, sloppy at times, but I loved it.
As for the actor portraying Kirk, I don’t feel like he’s channeling any side of the character, quiet or otherwise. It doesn’t really bother me, I could take it or leave it, cause I’m not really interested in seeing any more Kirk than what Shatner did, but this guy is like zero percent Kirk to me. Am I alone in that?
It’ll be interesting to see Kirk hook up with Khan’s ancestor later in the season (it’s gotta be foreshadowing, right?), provided there’s a sci-fi plot point to it and it’s not just, well, boneshadowing.
@115 / I would say that, if you ignore that acting and only pay attention to the way that he’s written, then he’s very much like Kirk; however, I think Paul Wesley makes him into a different character entirely. To be fair, I feel the same about Ethan Peck’s version of Spock (except that the writing also deliberately highlights his immaturity and youthful emotionality).
@114/wlewisiii: “I just fall back on a variation of the idea that Rodenberry put out that each series is just a version of the tales, not “history” as such.”
That’s been my preferred interpretation for years now, and is the only way I can deal with nonsense like Discovery‘s turbolift roller-coaster hammerspace that’s bigger than the entire ship. But now that we have a canonical assertion that the timeline has been altered from the events of earlier series, that changes things by giving us a tool we didn’t have before. We should always revise our models to incorporate new data (as I’ve continually done with my personal Trek chronology since the 1980s).
I still prefer a Doylist interpretation for a lot of the inconsistencies and weirdnesses, that it’s just an embellishment or error in the dramatization, but I’m contemplating which inconsistencies are major enough to be worth explaining as timeline shifts. Better to be open to using different tools for different tasks than to try to fix every problem with the same tool.
@115/Transceiver: “but this guy is like zero percent Kirk to me. Am I alone in that?”
I thought he was a much more convincing Kirk here than he was in “A Quality of Mercy.” He didn’t do an imitation any more than Anson Mount, Rebecca Romijn, Ethan Peck, Jess Bush, or Celia Rose Gooding does, but I could see an evocation of Shatner’s performance in Wesley’s. I’ve seen interview quotes where he talks about avoiding the caricature, the public image of Kirk that’s based more on stand-up comics than the real thing, and focusing on the more understated, nuanced performance Shatner actually gave most of the time, especially the “stack of books with legs” Kirk of the second pilot and first season.
Although I decided a couple of years ago that Stephen Amell of Arrow would’ve made an impressive James T. Kirk, and I’m still a little disappointed that he didn’t get the gig.
“It’ll be interesting to see Kirk hook up with Khan’s ancestor later in the season (it’s gotta be foreshadowing, right?)”
You mean his descendant, right? La’an? It would make the timeline a whole lot messier if she were his ancestor…
It might be an insignificant thing on some levels, but the thing that makes me want to place any timeline shift after TNG/DS9/Voyager/Enterprise is that they slavishly copied the aesthetics of TOS in episodes like “Relics” and “In a Mirror Darkly”, but Discovery/SNW has chosen to reinterpret the designs. Yes, you could do the Gene Rodenberry thing of “They always looked like that, we just didn’t have the budget to show it”, but I’m tempted to go with the explanation “This is a different timeline where people have ended up in the same place doing the same things but the ships are bigger and have more chrome.”
@120 I flagged it as such.
On topic, I was completely overwhelmed by Toronto being in Star Trek. I’m just not used to seeing places I’ve been and doors I’ve walked through. Not sure where that super long bridge was going though. Would it really be the longest bridge in the world (that’s what they said, right?) crossing Lake Ontario?
@120/noblehunter The world’s longest bridge, the Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge, is 164.8 km. A straight line from Toronto to Rochester, NY is about that distance, so that strikes me as plausible. Oswego is more than 230 km, so that’s a candidate as well.
@107/
You’re close except you missed the U-turn right after the Ritz-Carlton. They turn into the surface parking lot just south of Roy Thomson Hall but don’t go underground. Instead they drive through the middle of David Pecaut Square, cut between Metro Hall and the north Metro Centre tower, and then up Duncan Street and right on to either Pearl or Nelson
@122 Those are ridiculous ways to cross the lake though. I guess you would do it for a gratuitously long bridge but it wouldn’t make sense to me if the goal were just to get to the US.
@123: Thanks. I wondered if they’d gone through the square instead of the parking garage, but Google Street View showed a bunch of bollards that would block car access. Alternate timeline is alternate, I guess…
As for the U-turn, I’d forgotten that it was a U-turn rather than a left turn. I didn’t record the episode, so I was going from clips that were used in a review I found on Youtube.
@125/lance_sibley: There are streets with bollards around the university near my home, and at least some of them are of the retractable type that can be lowered into the ground to allow traffic to pass. That picture isn’t very clear, but the bollards look like they may be a similar type.
@124/noblehunter: No argument here that building a bridge across Lake Ontario is a terrible idea. But if all one cared about were the span, Toronto to Rochester could get the record.
@117/CLB Dammit, Chris! Now I can’t unsee Stephen Amell as Kirk. And he’s cleared to work in Canada, at any time. I’ll just add to the chorus of native, and sometime Torontonians, like myself, who enjoyed seeing Stephen’s hometown play itself.
It reminded me of the time 10+ years ago when Vancouver finally got its chance. First, in “Endgame” a wonderfully quirky, but little-seen, one-season wonder about an agoraphobic Russian Grandmaster, who turns to crimesolving to make ends meet. Notable for being the only time, to date, Shawn Doyle got to headline a series. And, the following year, “Continuum” was set in Vancouver, now and then, for 5 seasons. Toronto has appeared on a few other occasions, but it’s still very rare. And I also assumed the bridge was a shortcut to Upstate New York, and that big city, down in the other corner.
After all is said and done, Star Trek is going down the rabbit hole that consumes comic books… endless “alternate” timelines, endless reboots and confusion over “What Matters”
@128/Agent6: “Dammit, Chris! Now I can’t unsee Stephen Amell as Kirk.”
Then my work here is done.
“Toronto has appeared on a few other occasions, but it’s still very rare.”
Flashpoint was cagey about being set in Toronto at first, but eventually became more explicit about it. Orphan Black was set in Toronto but tiptoed around it, with the evidence being mainly in things like license plates, paper money, and neighborhood names. Also Lost Girl, which was even vaguer about it, but there were clues (like being close to cherry-orchard country).
@129/Brian: “After all is said and done, Star Trek is going down the rabbit hole that consumes comic books… endless “alternate” timelines, endless reboots and confusion over “What Matters””
I don’t think so. This isn’t like Kelvin where the new timeline was license to go in a totally new direction. I mean, last season came down pretty firmly on the idea that both Pike’s future and Spock’s have to happen in the way we know from TOS (and Kirk’s too, at least where “Balance of Terror” is concerned). As I said before, the idea is to readjust the 20th-21st century backstory of the universe to be recognizable to modern audiences, while still keeping the 23rd century onward essentially the same, with the same stories happening aside from some variations in technology, attitudes, etc. It’s not a reboot, just an in-story retcon.
I would actually enjoy it if some stories were rewritten (or “erased” completely from the “current timeline”). It’s not that hard (for now) to imagine that the characters will end where they’re supposed to end before TOS starts, but some stories as they happened in TOS are already hard to swallow because of the differences in attitudes and experiences from TOS. If they continue SNW with Kirk in the captain’s chair (because, after all, SNW doesn’t need to end with Pike’s accident, and Pike doesn’t need to end up on Talos IV), I want to see them telling new stories and not stories that would be set between the episodes of the original series. Yes, some things need to happen because they’re “written” – Pike’s accident, Kirk in command (at least in 2267), Spock’s attempts at unification in the 24th century, but there could be differences in relationships, Chapel might not end up engaged, Spock might never meet Leila Kalomi and his and Chapel’s relationship might continue differently from what we saw in TOS, Kirk’s dating history could be altered, La’an could continue serving on the Enterprise so she can meet Khan again (I got the impression she wasn’t a descendant of 1990s Khan, so she didn’t actually exist in the original timeline) – things that would ultimately change the characters but not the big things that need to happen.
I meant to say experiences from SNW.
@131/Em: “If they continue SNW with Kirk in the captain’s chair…”
That’s still 4-5 years away in-universe, and in the modern streaming era, we’ll be lucky if this show even gets a third season, let alone a seventh.
As for Roger Korby, there was a reference in the season premiere to Chapel pursuing some study in archaeological medicine, which sounds like it’s intended to set up her meeting with Korby. But we’ll see.
@133: I certainly read Chapel’s archeology plans as a Korby reference.
@@@@@ 130. Orphan Black was explicit about being in the GTA, it’s just that “North York” confused the hell out of the Americans. ;)
The TV adaptation of Tanya Huff’s Blood Ties was also both filmed and set in Toronto, which is in keeping with the books.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@135/Cybersnark: Not so much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_Black#Location
It wasn’t until season 5 that they stated overtly in dialogue that they were in Canada, rather than leaving it implicit through place names, currency design, and such.
Am I the only one that found it both funny and interesting that the show referenced DuckDuckGo instead of Google as a search engine?
One thing I found hilarious about the episode being set in Toronto was the fact that they wanted to destroy it with a “cold fusion” explosion. We know from Into Darkness that, in the Trek universe, cold fusion makes things cold. So they’re planning on destroying a Canadian city with cold? Torontonians would just put on a scarf and carry on.
An interesting episode but a bit schizophrenic to my eye. It starts out with a mystery and then, once the time travel kicks in, looks to turn comedic. COTEOF did something similar but the humour seemed more drawn out in this one. Also, just how much money did Kirk hustle playing chess? A suite with a harbour view goes for about $300 a night. Add in two round trips to Vermont and we’re talking some serious cash.
The revelation that the date for the Eugenics Wars has changed is pretty much in line with my idea that every time someone travels through time, something changes. Sometimes it’s minor. Some times it’s major. In most of the situations, the travellers believe that they’re back in the same universe they left but, in truth, they just remember it as it is now. Occasionally, they see the change, such as Sisko replacing Bell in Nog’s book. But, for the most part, the universe keeps changing.
Think of how often we’ve seen time travel with our intrepid crews. Not, imagine how much the various other crew have done something similar. It’s unlikely in the extreme that the broadcast crew are the only ones to have adventures in time. The time cops are fighting a losing battle because even they believe that tings are restored at the end. But, it’s not as we have seen. This all puts an end to the idea of a Prime Universe. Which universe? The one where tribbles are known a decade before TTWT or the one where Spock & McCoy and the rest have no idea what they are? The fireballs destroyed a starship. You’d think that Starfleet would have sent out a memo.
@138: I noticed that, and found it somewhat surprising. I was half-expecting a payoff but one didn’t come. Now if he had said “Ask Jeeves” or “Yahoo search” I would have laughed – a lot.
@139 Maybe the suite was cheap because everyone left town because of the bridge explosion? Maybe the current fad for chess sticks around so people are willing to put serious money down on games in the park.
@77/C.T. Phipps: “To be fair, it doesn’t postulate it is an alternate timeline. It is postulating that it is an altered timeline.”
I’ve been watching Doctor Who for so long that this explanation makes perfect sense to me. The Doctor going back in time to attempt to stop the Daleks from being created, which instead eventually results in the Time War between the Time Lords and the Daleks occurring, is probably that series’ biggest examples of an “altered timeline” as well as the handwave used to explain away a lot of the numerous contradictory continuity details that have inevitably popped up over the show’s decades-long existence.
@77/C.T. Phipps: “To be fair, it doesn’t postulate it is an alternate timeline. It is postulating that it is an altered timeline.”
I’ve been watching Doctor Who for so long that this explanation makes perfect sense to me. The Doctor going back in time to attempt to stop the Daleks from being created, which instead eventually results in the Time War between the Time Lords and the Daleks occurring, is probably that series’ biggest examples of an “altered timeline” as well as the handwave used to explain away a lot of the numerous contradictory continuity details that have inevitably popped up over the show’s decades-long existence.
@141/noblehunter: “Maybe the suite was cheap because everyone left town because of the bridge explosion?”
They rented the suite before the explosion. They saw the explosion from the suite.
@143/noblehunter: Good point about the right individual at the right time being able to make a difference. Temujin/Genghis Khan was so effective because he was exceptionally good at bringing people together, convincing them to cooperate. Without him, the Mongols might not have become as unified and overwhelming a conquering force.
And of course, SNW is pretty clear that nobody but Spock could achieve the great things he’s destined to do.
” Khan seems to fit the mould of someone who is more than the sum of historical forces.”
I’m not so sure about this part, though. People tend to forget it, but Khan was just one of dozens, even hundreds of Augments who seized power at the same time. He wasn’t their leader, he was one of multiple clashing leaders in various parts of the world, albeit the most successful of the bunch. Without him, the Eugenics Wars would still have happened. Indeed, they might have been worse, since Khan was the least brutal of the tyrants. Although maybe that’s why he’s important to ensure the future — because whoever replaced him could’ve had an even more devastating effect, like what Ben said about the alternatives to Hitler.
@146: Agreed. I’m sure Khan Noonien-Singh thinks of himself as a singular Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan type around whom history revolves. But a much more accurate analogy would be to compare Khan to one of the numerous totalitarian rulers who came to power near-simultaneously in the 1930s, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mussolini, Franco, etc.
I feel that Khan’s significance in future history of the ST universe has gotten overinflated in the minds of both fans and more recent writers on the franchise due to the immense popularity & long-lasting impact of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. But the character was never intended to be this epic supervillain a la Doctor Doom or Darkseid.
I liked pretty much everything about this episode except the hamfisted forced romance between Kirk and La’an.
It’s made worse by the fact that Kirk has no reason to be in this episode at all. The only thing he does of any consequence is when he plays chess to earn money. That’s it. Other than that, you can remove him from the story entirely and it changes absolutely nothing.
@147/Ben Herman: “I feel that Khan’s significance in future history of the ST universe has gotten overinflated in the minds of both fans and more recent writers on the franchise due to the immense popularity & long-lasting impact of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.”
Yes. It was ridiculous in Picard season 2 when we saw that genetic research file labeled “Project Khan.” It was never exclusively about him.
It’s the same kind of lazy error that’s led to DSC and SNW calling the Enterprise the flagship of Starfleet, a concept never used in Trek until TNG. NCC-1701 belonged to Starfleet’s most advanced and powerful class of capital ships, but it was just one of a dozen.
” But the character was never intended to be this epic supervillain a la Doctor Doom or Darkseid.”
Hmm, there I’d disagree. Khan really has a lot in common with Victor von Doom — an iron-fisted tyrant who craves power and is prone to obsessive vengeance, but is in his own way honorable and relatively benevolent toward the subjects he rules. “Space Seed” did establish him as one of the great men of history, a figure admired even by those who deplored his methods.
Hi folks, please avoid bringing current politics into the discussion, as it often completely derails the conversation. Thanks!
@147, 149 Epic super-villain is not the same as epic evil, I think. And the likes of Victor von Doom and Magneto are larger than life figures, but with considerable amounts of nuance to their character, and, in the case of the latter, a considerable amount of rightness. And I think that would fit Khan much more than any one dimensional antagonist or villain role. (Which is why the suggestion (that someone worse and less visionary could have taken his place and made the 23rd Century a worse place) somewhat tickles my fancy).
I have to admit one of the most surprising things I learned in this episode is that, at least in this continuity, Khan is apparently a Canadian. Though I do wonder now if that’s why it “used to be called Canada.”
@149/ChristopherLBennett: “Khan really has a lot in common with Victor von Doom — an iron-fisted tyrant who craves power and is prone to obsessive vengeance, but is in his own way honorable and relatively benevolent toward the subjects he rules.”
Ah, sorry, I meant that in recent years Star Trek has seemingly been treating Khan like a Dr. Doom type of character in that they’re acting like Khan is THE major bad guy in the entire galaxy, someone who is so infamous that everyone has heard of him, the way Doom is that one super-villain everyone at Marvel has fought on numerous occasions and whose name makes everyone quake in fear. As opposed to what Khan originally was, specifically a villain who happened to fight James T. Kirk twice, a guy who neither Captain Terrell nor Dr. Carol Marcus had the slightest clue about.
@152:
Yes, Khan renamed the country “Khanada” after he took power. (Sorry.*)
(* – not really. But as a Canadian I have to say “sorry” at least once per week or I won’t get my poutine ration.)
@153/Ben Herman: “a guy who neither Captain Terrell nor Dr. Carol Marcus had the slightest clue about.”
That doesn’t prove anything. All they knew was that a guy calling himself Khan showed up in the present day and did bad things. It wouldn’t have occurred to them to associate him with a famous historical figure from a war centuries in the past, because apparently the rediscovery of the Botany Bay was never made public for some reason (which is a tragedy for the historical community, since they could’ve filled in so many gaps). So it doesn’t prove that they hadn’t heard of the historical Khan.
After all, even the crew in “Space Seed” didn’t recognize “Mr. Khan” at first, despite knowing he was from sometime around the end of the 20th century. (Khan is a very common name.) And once Spock identified him, they all were able to rattle off facts and details about Khan Noonien Singh from history. So it’s clear that he was a very well-known historical figure, on a par with Napoleon, say.
So you’re taking the point much farther than I intended. I never meant that he wasn’t famous at all. I just meant that it would be a mistake to assume that the Augment program was centrally about him from the start, which is what PIC season 2’s “Project Khan” implied. Rather, he started out as just one of many, but rose out of the pack to become the most important one as an adult.
Project Khan doesn’t necessarily mean it was named after him or vice versa. Khan can also mean –
A ruler, an official, or an important person in India and some central Asian countries.
A medieval ruler of a Mongol, Tatar, or Turkish tribe.
A caravansary in certain Asian countries.
@156/kkozoriz: “Project Khan doesn’t necessarily mean it was named after him or vice versa.”
Of course not, but that was obviously what the PIC writers intended to imply when they gave that name to a file connected to eugenics.
@148, I will descent mildly, as for me the connection between Kirk and La’an was the Best thing about this episode. A few people, not many but a few, have suggested there was no chemistry between these actors, which I find somewhat astonishing. I thought they were amazing together.
As for the suggestion that replacing Kirk with some rando would change nothing, I also must disagree. The choice of a character we already know and are invested in as Trek fans makes La’an”s doomed relationship with Kirk-of-the-past that much more poignant.
And on that note I know there’s been also been some discussion about Wesley’s portrayal of Kirk and whether it does or doesn’t hit right. For me, I appreciate that this actor isn’t trying to do an impression of Shatner, and moreso he’s not even trying to channel Kirk in a way that is too paint by numbers distracting. This Kirk is a bit more insouciant, and I kind of like him.
I never watched Enterprise–at least not more than 2 episodes. But was the Department of Temporal Corrections disbanded? Where were they when Michael and Discovery had to jump (?) years into the future? Are they in that future?
@159/mariesdaughter: Discovery‘s 32nd century is set after time travel was outlawed and all time travel mechanisms destroyed in the wake of the Temporal Wars. Which doesn’t make a lot of sense, since any warp drive can be a time machine if you slingshot around a star the right way, and space is littered with natural time warps and such. Also, what’s to stop time travelers from the past from coming forward to after the ban, or travelers coming back from a distant future after time travel has been re-established, or from somewhere beyond the enforcement ability of the governments that agreed to the ban? Still, as many holes as the idea has, the writers wanted to make it clear that Discovery‘s move to the future was permanent, so they removed time travel from the equation altogether.
Anyway, it was the Department of Temporal Investigations, not Corrections, and it seemed to have been replaced in the 29th century by Starfleet’s Temporal Integrity Commission seen in Voyager, and in the 31st by the Temporal Agents seen in Enterprise.
@157 – Exactly. It’s meant for the viewers since there’s no dialog, just the file folder.
Did Into Darkness make any specific mention of when Khan was from
98. lance_sibley — I’m glad to hear about the vegan hot dogs in Toronto; maybe that accounts for the odd-looking buns. We’ve got a vegan place near us that serves fries topped with mock cheese and mock gravy, but not curds per se and it’s not called poutine. Your comment about replacing the gravy with spaghetti sauce amused me because I grew up in an area with many Italian families who refer to marinara itself as gravy.
I have more thoughts on timeline stuff I’ve been hoping to write up and just not found the head space with other stuff going on, so meanwhile, at the risk of hijacking a week-old thread but not entirely off the subject, I want to recommend the excellent British series The Lazarus Project finally airing Sunday nights on TNT here in the States. You seem to be able to watch the five episodes released here to date on the channel’s website. I don’t want to spoil anything, really, but it does involve resetting timelines and really leans into the colossal, heartbreaking ramifications of its premise.
(@18, @22)
I am so very flabbergasted that she just simply left a loaded gun on the nightstand in a child’s room. Seriously, who does that?
@20 CLB
I don’t know if someone else mentioned this yet, but Sikhs are both an ethnic and religious group similar to Jews. For more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group
As to the episode. Not a fan of Star Trek in current times storylines. Not sure what to think of the episode as a whole…
-Kefka
@165/kefka: “I don’t know if someone else mentioned this yet, but Sikhs are both an ethnic and religious group similar to Jews.”
Okay, but the point is that there are still Sikhs of many different ethnicities, just as there are Jewish people of many different ethnicities (e.g. Sammy Davis Jr. was Black and Jewish). Just because these are also ethnic groups does not mean the religions are limited to people of the respective ethnicities, because anyone can convert to a religion. The point is simply that it’s not impossible for a white or Latinx person to be a follower of Sikhism, even if it’s not the usual case.
@12/krad, @100/johnnymysterio, @165/kefka, @166/CLB
To confirm, the actor Desmond Sivan who played young Khan is definitely both LatinX AND South Asian, see here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CuJBjbnN_aF
7AndThen: Thanks for that. Happy to be wrong.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@84, harmonyfb:
I am late watching the episodes. So I just finished this and came here to see if anyone made the point about La’an desperately needing counselling– and the Temporal Bureau most certainly having the capacity to provide it without anyone in her time noticing! They could take her in and out of appointments, or at least one crisis post-mission debrief, with not a second passing in her own time. Yet clearly, even though ship counsellors or ship doctors addressing mental health is increasingly a thing in modern interpretations of Star Trek, any other mental health supports do not seem to occur to writers or producers. Or I guess, maybe they are viewed as taking away from drama…
So thank you, thank you for raising the point!
Does this mean that Khan is canonically Canadian? 8-)
Khanadian!
Paul Wesley’s Kirk actually reminds me of a portrayal of Kirk other than Shatner. He reminds me of the way James Cawley played it in Star Trek Phase 2 (aka “New Frontier”).
The problem with discussing the morality of killing a child so they will never grow up to be a dictator is that there is nothing moral about killing a child for what they might do – we punish people for what they HAVE done or or for what they are trying to do or for what they have tried to do, not for what they might do.
Time travellers are, after all, no more reliable than any other form of prophecy,
Also, this was a most likeable episode even before we get to see James T. Kirk CHESS HUSTLER in action, but it just kept getting better.
My only complaint is that this episode’s Shouty Music was simply not worthy of James T. Needed more Beastie Boys!