Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week we got some interesting perspectives on human activity from a spren viewpoint, and ended in screams, shouts, and smoke. This week, we’ll find out what all the shouting was about and witness… well… Oh, nothing could go wrong here, could it? No tragedies, or anything. Not here.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere books that become relevant. Most of those will be in the comments, though. At least this week.
Chapter 7: Open Flame
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: Aboard the Wind’s Pleasure,
off the coast of the Frostlands near the Shallow Crypts
Symbology: Shadesmar Icon, Chanarach
IN WHICH screams, shouts, and smoke abound; assassins are revealed; Jasnah is stabbed through the heart; Shallan performs an impressive Modified Stationary Panic, refuses to use her Shardblade, and sends a bright Illusion on a Full Bore Linear Panic; Jasnah’s body is missing; desperate to give the sailors a chance other than execution, Shallan enters Shadesmar and Soulcasts the ship; and she is pulled into the deep. Fade to black.
Quote of the Week:
“Sword,” a voice said. Pattern, hanging on the wall beside her. “Mmmm… The sword…”
“No!” Shallan screamed, hands to the sides of her head, fingers in her hair. Stormfather! She was trembling.
Nightmare. It was a nightmare! It couldn’t be—
“Mmmm… Fight…”
“No!” Shallan found herself hyperventilating as the men outside continued to ram their shoulders against her door. She was not ready for this. She was not prepared.
“Mmmm…” Pattern said, sounding dissatisfied. “Lies.”
“I don’t know how to use the lies!” Shallan said. “I haven’t practiced.”
“Yes. Yes… remember… the time before…”
The door crunched. Dared she remember? Could she remember? A child, playing with a shimmering pattern of light…
I could quote another page or so to get the whole section, but I won’t. You know the bit. It seems so odd to me that Shallan could, at a time like this, so fervently reject the idea of using her Blade. Okay, from the literary angle, of course she couldn’t use it yet. But from the immersive angle, it’s extremely frustrating—and more than a little odd?—that in such desperation she would turn to Illusion and Soulcasting, which she scarcely knows, rather than summon her Shardblade. (Was Pattern dissatisfied because she wouldn’t do Plan Shardblade and he had to fall back on suggesting Plan Illusion?) I’m still trying to figure out if I think it’s realistic or if it’s overworking my suspension-of-disbelief. If nothing else, we should understand that she is blocking memory of the Blade for all she’s worth, and even doing it consciously sometimes. There’s also some very remarkable insight into Shallan’s early Lightweaving days.
Commentary: Wows. After doing that summary, I realize once again what a terrifying chapter this was the first time through. ::shudder:: It’s not really very long, only six pages; but in that short span so many awful things happen that it feels like a lot more. During the beta read, it took me several days to figure out anything intelligible to say about it. (I see a couple of things now that I’d have noted if I’d been able to notice them, but I was so blown away by the content that I missed the textual issues. Oh well; they’re small stuff anyway.)
This is the second time that the epigraph is directly related to something that happens in the chapter, although it doesn’t take as much rereading to figure it out as the one on Chapter 4. Poor Navani; loving her daughter and yet not allowed by that same daughter to be as close as a mother should be, and then to lose her so suddenly and unexpectedly. It makes me sad.
Is anyone claiming they saw “new kid” as a nasty foreshadowing in the previous chapter? (The first time through, not on your reread!) I’m pretty sure I didn’t, especially since Tozbek had already mentioned in passing the need to take on extra crew in Amydlatn. It was disguised well, slipped in during the first chapter as an opportunity to show Shallan a santhid shell since they’d have to stop there anyway. Maybe it should have triggered a reader-warning, but it just seemed like part of the world-building at the time.
So “the new kid” came aboard. Presumably, he just did his job as crew until they got to this particular area, where there were no ports to shelter them at night, and then let his associates on board under cover of darkness, eh? Perhaps the reason Jasnah wasn’t more guarded was simply that this guy had been on board for well over a week, and nothing had happened, so she went back to focusing on her work. Also, does anyone besides me suspect that perhaps “new kid” found an opportunity to tamper with the latch on Jasnah’s door?
Speaking of Jasnah… Oh, Jasnah.
“A body in a thin nightgown, eyes staring sightlessly, blood blossoming from the breast. Jasnah.”
“The other one knelt and rammed a long, thin knife right into Jasnah’s chest. Shallan heard it hit the wood of the floor beneath the body.”
I’m not sure the lack of tripping over a body later is enough to mitigate that evidence; though it makes the reader wonder just a little, I certainly can’t fault Shallan for believing her own eyes. On my first read, I couldn’t decide whether to believe Brandon had killed her or not; he’s been known to do things like that. With Kelsier (that’s a whited-out spoiler, in case someone hasn’t read Mistborn) in mind, I couldn’t entirely convince myself Jasnah wasn’t dead… but I sure didn’t want her to be! I finally settled on hoping she was somehow, amazingly, magically, still alive—while at the same time being absolutely convinced that I could trust the story-teller enough that if she really was dead, it was the right thing for the story. (See how much I trust you, Brandon? Don’t let me down, ’kay? Don’t kill my favorite characters without a Very Good Reason? Right?)
For what it’s worth, I think it’s fairly obvious that Shallan’s intervention really was required: the assassins were going to murder all the crew, the captain, and his wife; there would be no one left alive to tell the story. It’s just faintly possible that Shallan could have hidden until they made port somewhere and escaped that way. It’s far more likely that they’d have simply sunk or burned the ship to make sure there was no evidence left—after going through everything that might have the kind of information they were seeking, of course. I doubt Shallan could have remained hidden from that kind of search, come to think of it.
Sprenspotting: Aside from the flamespren accompanying the titular open flame which should never be on board a ship, we get two views of Pattern! There’s the physical-realm version, where he mostly slithers around on surfaces like he does… and then we get the Cognitive-realm version, which is of course the creepy-symbol-head form that freaked Shallan out so much in the previous book. I think I’d freak out too, if I’d gotten used to the still-learning, surface-slithering-and-bumping, buzzing-humming physical representation of Pattern for a matter of 6 or 7 days and turned around to see this tall, willowy symbol-headed creature looming over me! Oy. (I wonder what Syl looks like in the Cognitive realm?) Nice of him to translate for her, though. I wonder how long it will take before she can communicate directly with objects in Shadesmar.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: Well… we didn’t actually see it yet, did we?
Ars Arcanum: Oh, lots and lots of Arcana up in here! Shallan’s first major Illusion was almost funny, if it hadn’t been in such a chilling context. A “vague, upright shape,” an “illuminated blur,” with “appendages that could have been arms.” Oh, help! It rather makes me giggle, now, because it’s so lame; fortunately, the movement and the light (presumably it looked sufficiently like a white nightgown or something?) drew the eyes of the assassins. The fact that it took all the Stormlight and left Shallan crouching in the shadows would help, too; I have to wonder if she inadvertently managed to give it enough realism that the men felt it brush past. It seems like the setting would be a little too crowded for a real person to rush through without touching anyone, but I could be wrong about that part.
Soulcasting the whole ship. Wow. Let’s not bother with starting small and building it up or anything, let’s just jump from a goblet to a ship! Pretty much the same thing, right? Heh. Part of me keeps wondering if there wasn’t something else she could have done, other than turning the whole ship to water in the middle of the ocean, but I don’t know what. I’m sad, though, because the Wind’s Pleasure liked being a ship, and was proud of being a good ship, and wanted to keep on being a ship. (It occurs to me that my life-long tendency to anthropomorphize all sorts of odd things is completely realized on Roshar. I felt awful selling my first car to the parts shop; I’m glad I didn’t have to know that it really had a cognitive element and was happy to be a car! Oy. I’d never be able to throw anything away if our world worked that way.)
Ahem. In both cases, Pattern’s coaching was clearly the only thing that made it possible for Shallan to do the magics; it’s a curious feature of the Rosharan magic system that the spren makes it possible for the human to do things, and can even tell her how to do them, but can’t do them himself. It’s also worth noting that, just before she goes to Shadesmar, Shallan says that she needs a truth; Pattern replies, “You have given enough.” Enough in this episode? Enough in the past? Enough to Soulcast whenever she wants? Enough… what?
I’ll leave the other Arcanum for discussion and debate in the comments…
Heraldic Symbolism: Chanarach is associated with the Heraldic Attributes of Brave/Obedient, and with the role of Guard. Why Chana? It could be Shallan’s act of guarding (well, sort of) the crew by giving them a chance to escape. It could also be a reverse image, possibly with Assassin as the negative of Guard. Um… spitballing, really. What do you think?
On an unrelated note, this is the last time we see the Shadesmar chapter icon in this book. It’s been used on Shallan’s POV chapters up until now; when we meet her again sometime next month, she’ll have a new icon.
Okay, that’s all I’ve got (except for a few things I saved for discussion in the comments). Don’t forget to complete your Hugo ballots today; midnight tonight PDT is the witching hour.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and a Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?
Put me down as slow. I didn’t realize she had her KR blade yet. Not sure what blade I thought Pattern was talking about, but I was focused on other things at the time.
Navani’s epigraph just hurts. Sanderson really kept us in suspense until the end, uh?
Way to go for the “student loses the teacher” trope.
“Who brings an open flame onto a ship?” On re-read I really like this line. In a world where there is an alternate, good point. How many of our ships were lost to careless open flames over the centuries?
Since the trunk of books shows up, I really also hope the captain, his wife, and Yalb are among the survivors. And they play another part in the story.
Part of me thought the truth of killing her father was still gave her some credit by being such a strong truth, but maybe because it just made the bond strong again? I’m looking forward to seeing others thoughts.
Oh, the infamous chapter 7, which I used to torture Gina as she was still on WoK…
More thoughts to come!
ETA: Thanks Braid_Tug for giving me some points to comment on :D
At this point I knew she had a Blade, but didn’t realize she had her Blade. Of course, if it were any other Blade, there would be screaming when wielding it, but since that’s not seen until later (either the fact of screaming when a Surgebinder touches a dead Blade, or Shallan actually wielding a blade), it’s not really relevant.
Navani’s epigraph here is what made me really think the death was real. I still had doubts (see: Gandalf, Moiraine), but that epigraph really hurt.
Re: the trunk, and the crew of the ship. I’m really hoping that her sketch in chapter 30 is true, and they really survived.
As far as truths go, we don’t know enough about how the various Oaths (or equivilents) work, but perhaps between her recent truth given to soulcast in the last book, and her bringing Pattern to the Physical realm, she solified her bond and access to powers enough to not need more truths to access this level of powers; she’ll almost certainly need more truths to (re)access other tiers of powers and become a full KR, but for what she’s doing here she’s given enough.
“It seems so odd to me that Shallan could, at a time like this, so fervently reject the idea of using her Blade.”
I like how this is done. In more than simply a literary “she can’t remember this yet because she has to later” kind of way. I think the fact that she’s not willing to remember in the midst of this crisis shows just how much (and how tragically) she needs to block out her memories. It’s like a child pouting about something, shouting “No!” for the last and loudest time. It makes me sad. And that’s why I like it–it works.
I was never convinced Jasnah was actually dead -she’s too powerful, too interesting and had too much potential for a smart writer like Sanderson to throw her away for mere dramatic effect- but I did take into consideration that Brandon might be playing his readers and actually go through with it and have her really be dead. Playing off the infamous Wheel of Time character everyone knew would return, I wondered if Brandon might let his audience think Jasnah would return and then later reveal she actually died. I’m more satisfied with what did happen, but it was a thought. Otherwise, there just didn’t seem any reason to actually kill her, though separating her from Shallan was totally and beautifully necessary.
On a reread, I was amazed how obvious Jasnah’s missing body was. I completely missed it my first time around, although I was still hoping that she was still alive somehow. I’m reasonably certain she escaped by moving to Shadesmar and healing up with Stormlight.
I would very much like to see Yalb and Tozbek again – they were great characters, and it’s a shame to see them go.
On the ship: the way I see it, the fact that it did see itself as a ship and liked being a ship, was a big part of why Shallan was even able to soulcast it. A very short time later, we see Shallan not even able to convince a simple stick to become fire, partly because she couldn’t give the stick a convincing reason to do so. Here, though, because the Wind’s Pleasure has such a love for its crew, it is willing to be transformed in order to help offer them a chance for survival.
Also, for those who missed it on last week’s thread: I will be attending an event in Calgary next weekend (When Words Collide), at which Brandon will be speaking/signing/etc, and am willing to take along a few questions from my fellow Storm Cellar residents. I plan to be taking notes and reporting back what I learn.
I think Pattern is dissatisfied for the same reason we’re dissatisfied. Shallan refuses to accept her past and limits herself in terms of knowledge and abilities because of her intentional block. Pattern’s like me: get on with it!
I didn’t see it coming, but I was suspicious all along that something would prevent them from reaching their destination, and I thought the ghostbloods were the likely cause. I did notice that the “new guy” was there, and I had a vague thought that Jasnah must have erroneously vetted him but now I think she just wasn’t as on her guard as she usually is, likely from exhaustion (as Shallan saw her so exhausted earlier).
I never once, even in passing, believed Jasnah was dead. Yes, BWS will kill characters, and the one you mentioned was a huge shock, but I never believed that Jasnah would be so easily dispatched (in Mistborn, Kelsier survived the unthinkable in battling an Inquisitor. Jasnah hasn’t faced any real serious threat until now. I’m still surprised that she wasn’t able to handle a handful of thugs, considering how skilled she is at soulcasting at a distance).
I love that the ship really liked being a ship, but was willing to sacrifice its own identity to save its crew. What an adorable lil ship! Unlike that damn stubborn stick.
I am not sure that Shallan could have had her personal character growth if Jasnah was not “taken out of the picture.” IMO, Shallan’s growth as a person (and ultimately a KR) had to do with decisions she made because Shallan beleived there was nobody else to get the job done. Had Jasnah been present, then Shallan would have deferred to Jasnah.
It will be interesting to see how there personal interactions change when Jasnah returns.
When I first read this chapter, I thought there was something off about the description of Jasnah’s inert body before the knife was stuck throught it. I had the impression that maybe She soulcast herself so the body was a fake body.
I guess that is a question for Brandon. Can you soulcast your own body?
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
rhandric @2 – You’re a cruel man… :P
I keep forgetting the impact epigraphs can play in the mindset; I first read this chapter without the epigraph, so was just going on the scene given. It’s impossible to say, of course, but I think that if I had just read the book when it came out, and with Mistborn already read, I’d have completely and unquestioningly believed she was dead. (I might have been miffed with Brandon for doing it again, but at least I knew he was capable of doing it!) As it was, although I had a little doubt, I accepted that she really could be dead.
wjames1204 @@.-@ – Well, she’s a great and intelligent character, but she’s also a scholar. BWS had set it up so that she could be a major player even after her death through her writings and through her flashback-sequence book… which also made it believable. He wouldn’t throw her under the bus just to prove he could kill people, but he might do it for other reasons.
For the record, I agree with all the comments on the ship. I want to hug it (and maybe shed a few tears over it).
@8 Only when I deem it necessary (or fun) ;)
Oh, and I’ve got an interesting question for you Wet, though I suspect I know the answer. I recall hearing/reading Brandon say that when he first wrote the book, Jasnah survived, but felt it didn’t work for Shallan’s character growth (@7, you’re absolutely right). Did you ever read any version like that, or had that change/addition already been made by the time it made it to you? I’m assuming the latter, of course.
Yes, during my first read I totally missed the introduction of the “new kid” being a nasty foreshadowing of events to come. BWS is a master at slipping this type of thing into the narrative. That’s one reason I enjoy his writing so much.
I never, ever believed Jasnah was really dead and gone. I don’t know if my faith that she would return–in full human form, not as a “spirit”–was just a result of wishful thinking or if it was more driven by the lack of a body. Likely the latter played the larger role, no dead body = no murder, although I will admit to a small shadow of doubt because Shallan may have simply missed discovering the corpse in the darkness while she was under serious pressure to act. That’s where faith came into play (or was it just something really subtle in the way her death was set up?).
Since Alice brought it up, I’m wondering why my belief about the guy in Mistborn was any different. That incident drove just as much of a
wait-just-a-darn-minute-I-have-to-read-those-last-few-paragraphs-again moment as Jasnah’s “death” did. I didn’t want him to be dead either, but lacked conviction that he would return in human form. And…I dunno. Perhaps my perception of the future role of the character in question at that particular point in the story was responsible? Enough.
Added in proof reading – I think wjames1204 @@.-@ is onto something. There wasn’t a good reason for Jasnah to be dead, but she did need to be separated from Shallan for a while. I’m not certain I can make the same argument for the guy in Mistborn.
Something bugging me: If Szeth could suck stormlight from spheres some distance down the hallway (during Gavilar’s assassination), then why didn’t Shallan pull the stormlight from the spheres in Jasnah’s trunk, which was relatively close to her at the time?
@10: Re stormlight: my thoughts? Panic and a lack of practice.
@2: Glad I gave you something to comment about.
And imagine how Shallan’s and Adolin’s relationship would have developed differently if she had been a ward under his house?
The training Shallan gets from her next teacher is just as important for the growth. But would not have happened if Jasnah was around.
rhandric @9 – I don’t recall hearing that bit; that’s pretty cool. I suspect that didn’t make it even as far as the alpha readers, because he wouldn’t get all the way through Shallan’s arc before the problems became apparent, and he’d go back and rewrite it with Jasnah “dead.” Just thinking about the rewriting that would entail makes my head spin… everything he had Jasnah doing would either have to be delayed or (believably) done by someone else. Oy. I totally agree that it was the right decision, though; Shallan needed to (again) be in the situation where there’s no one else to turn to.
Another peek behind the scenes… during the beta, one of the alpha readers commented on the stabbing, something to the effect that “okay, now I can buy that Shallan believed she was dead.” This leads me to think that in the alpha, Shallan saw the “body” and then later it wasn’t there, so no one a) believed J was dead OR b) believed that S would believe J was dead. Presumably he then put in the stabbing to add verisimilitude etc.
Alice – you make an excellent point about how hard it would be to throw stuff away on Roshar; I feel the same way. :)
I for one was 99% sure that Jasnah was dead. I remember reading this chapter in the airport and walking to my connecting gate just shocked. It made sense to me that her death was needed for Shallan to develop on her own, and I totally bought that Brandon would do it. But I did not expect it to happen so early in the story. I held out that 1% chance that as someone with the powers of Transformation and Transportation she was still alive, but I didn’t let myself believe it. So I wasn’t totally surprised when I got to the end of the book, but I was pretty happy.
Didn’t catch the “new guy” on first reading. I do remember that Shallan’s inability to find Jasnah’s body gave me a very strong feeling that Jasnah was not dead. That being said, I did have to immediately re-read that section a few times to be sure I had caught everything there and by the time I got to the big reveal at the end, I had completely forgotten about this whole story arc and felt chills in that scene.
Ways @10 – That’s a good question. My initial thought is that there isn’t a direct line-of-sight with the trunk as there is in the hall between Szeth and the spheres. However, that doesn’t explain Szeth and Kal’s ability to suck in stomrlight from the spheres they carry in pouches.
Maybe there is some kind of linear relationship between the level of obstruction between the spheres and the stormlight user. Maybe similar to the way cloth can’t hold water but a wood bowl can. Stormlight also seems to have light particle properties and can therefor move through glass and a lesser degree cloth but not more substantial materials like wood/stone? Not sure if there’d be any loss of stormlight due to the level of obstruction, or if it impacts the amount of time required to access the stormlight or if it’s an all-or-nothing affect. Thoughts?
So, is there an explanation as to how Jasnah could survive the knife? Secrect conspiritor? Illusion?…wait, Jasnah couldn’t do that… Lucky blow? Partial Teleportation? Soul Casting the knife? Anybody have a good guess?
@15 Kaladin healed his arm after getting it cut with a Shardblade…The Lopen regrew his entire arm and isn’t even a KR. Surviving a knife to the heart should be easy enough for one with access to stormlight. ;) Especially one who can Elsecall.
And… there’s the other Arcanum. Did she Elsecall right under our noses? When? Where? Why?
@15 I always assumed she was partially in Shadesmar already. We know she can still appear in the physical realm while there, because when she soulcast in WOK she was still visible. So when she was stabbed, she just maintained a physical representation to throw her attackers off the scent, then fully escaped into Shadesmar.
I thought the Heraldic symbolism would be more obvious this time. It’s for the Essence of Fire.
@19, Peter: and thus the title “Open Flame” too?
Any other thoughts you care to share with us? Please.
Thanks Peter @19!
When thinking of how these relate, the Soulcasting properties are always at the end of my thought process and rarely do I get that far in the process. I tend to think in terms of Heralds, their primary/secondary devine attributes and how they might be related to chapter content.
I, too, assumed that Jasnah was really killed in this chapter. After all, BWS killed off many leading characters by the end of the Mistborn series. As opposed to some other commenters, however, I had little empathy for her character (it’s still the case by the epilogue to WOR, although there are glimmers of a less arrogant and hard-nosed attitude there) and was not ‘crushed’ by her apparent demise. In any case, her disappearance and apparent death allowed for the development of Shallan’s character. The fact of character growth is evident in the subsequent chapters which move Shallan from a fearful teenager to someone willing to assume much initiative and risk in accomplishing her adopted mission. One indication of such development is the contrast between her current unwillingness to use the awful weapon at her command – even to save her life, as opposed to her use in defending herself a bit later. The Chanarach icons for this chapter are, therefore, appropriate in that Shallan exhibits guardianship, bravery, and obedience to Jasnah’s mission of seeking Urithiru as an avenue of safety and a means of discovering how to counteract the impending Desolation. I did not have the impression that Tozbek’s mentioning taking on extra crew during a port stop meant just Yalb’s ‘new kid’. The crude illusion that Shallan creates to divert the attackers works because Lightweaving affects the mind of the viewer so that they believe what was intended for them. The dissolution of the ship through soulcasting is not, in principle, different than soulcasting a goblet to blood except that Shallan had to convince the ‘ship sphere’ that it was its duty to change considering what was happening to its owner. There was no need for a further truth from Shallan in order to enter Shadesmar since the earlier truth about killing her father was sufficiently powerful (i.e., she had a passport). She elected to sink the ship rather than hide in an attempt to save some sailors and Tozbek who were being executed by the assassins.
Oy. Can I feel stupid now? I know, I’ll blame it on “too many different things associated with each of the Heralds!” *sigh* I tend to focus on the character attributes and forget the other properties… Constantly expanding my parameters, FTW! One of these days I’ll have to invest in a real brain instead of this toy one.
One of the things that really bothered me about this scene and the rest of the book is the fact that Shallan’s inability to deal with her personal demons from the past most likely resulted in the deaths of Tozbek and his crew. Had Shallan been willing to whip out Pattern in shardblade form and fight, then some assassins would have died and others most likely would have run (nobody fights a shardbearer without shards…unless your Kaladin). She could have saved the crew, her friends and good men, but instead she decides to turn the boat into water. The crew is tied up and surrounded by assassins and now trying to swim for their lives. If they didn’t drown they still have assassins to deal with. I know their deaths aren’t confirmed, and they may still have lived. That’s not the point.
The point is that Shallan refused to take the course of action that would most likely result in the crews and her own safety, and instead chooses an action that would most likely get the crew killed.
Now I understand from a literary point of view why this had to happen. I can even understand from a psychological point of view why Shallan chose this way. But the book still needed to address the fact that Shallans weakness may have killed good people. I’d be fine with it if later in the book Shallan reconciles her guilt over abandoning the crew and uses that guilt to help her overcome her demons and become a better person. But it is never even acknowledged. I think Tozbek and his crew deserve better than that.
In WoK I was lead to believe that water was hard to soulcast since Jasnah said that the blood types were easier. Since Shallon soulcasts water here as a beginner I guess water isn’t hard. It’s just not as easy as blood. Either that or that ship really wanted to help.
@Alice 17 – My thoughts on the elsecalling are this.. We see at one point in the book Kaladin can see both the physical and cognitive realms at the same time. And the next time we see Shallan after chapter 7 on the beach she describes being on the edge of physical / cognitive.
But I think this is all a perception thing. They are not physically being transported into shadesmar. If Shallan were to “drown” in the beads of shadesmar, I think that it would destroy her mind, but you would still see her physical form laying on the beach (maybe in a vegitative state?).
So for Jasnah’s transportation surge, I think that she is able to transport her physical body into shadesmar as well. This is what I assume happened on the ship (while also healing with stormlight).
This has probably all been heavily theorized, but I thought it was worth voicing here.
I totally caught the “new guy” on first read and was immediately suspicious. Especially when Yalb commented something about him in the last chapter, about him being weird or having no sense of humor or whatever. But I also watch/read a lot of police procedural/mystery so I tend to pick up those small things.
I also caught Jasnah’s body missing and figured that had to mean she was alive, but I had no idea how. I kind of forgot the whole Elsecaller thing (which you only would know about reading these forums and not through the book). So at first I thought she was still alive. As the book wore on, especially after Navani and her sadness I really thought maybe she was dead for reals (although Navani’s “did you see her body?” question should have given me the final clue, but that one Sanderson did sneak by me). So I was extremely happy to find out she wasn’t dead.
As far as Shallan’s blade – I thought her refusal to use it seemed genuinely in character. She is so pained by her memories and what she did with her blade (at the time I thought she killed her father with it) that she can’t even bring herself to use it in a time like this. It didn’t seem like a plot excuse to me. I did think her choice to soulcast the ship was a little weird (I kept thinking there should have been something else she could have done) but it worked.
@17, 26
There’s WoB somewhere (I know it came up during the Philly signing) where Brandon says that the first time we see someone fully entering Shadesmar is with Jasnah in this book; all other entrances into Shadesmar have been cognitive only. So Jasnah needed to have done something special to enter Shadesmar physically, which is almost certainly elsecalling.
When I was young I anthropomorphized everything. It took years to get over that! Living in Roshar would’ve driven me to hoarding. I totally loved the ship wanting to remain a good ship. Sad.
On my first read of this chapter, I was most interested in Shallan surviving! I was going so quickly, I had to reread the chapter to begin to catch all the info about her blade and refusal to use it. Then she’s in Shadsmar with Pattern. So much info in a fairly short chapter!
At first I thought Jasnah dead, but then with no body, I assumed she’d escaped to Shadsmar. But yes, agree with all, that Shallan needed to be on her own to grow. It will be interesting to see their interactions upon Jasnah’s return. I do hope Jasnah acknowledges Shallans knowledge and abilities. She will have an excellent and powerful ally!
Totally missed the “new guy” intro. In retrospect it should’ve been a red flag. Gun on the mantle…..
Capt D @24 – It ain’t over ’til the fat lady sings… Based mostly on Shallan’s later drawing, I think there’s some hope that some of the crew survived. What happens if Shallan meets them, now that she’s acknowledged her
demonsBlade? Perhaps she will also realize that she had other options. However…She hasn’t exactly practiced sword-fighting; the times we’ve seen her use her Blade haven’t required confronting multiple opponents, or even a single opponent who was expecting a fight. Would she have been able to overcome… how many? There were at least five belowdecks, plus enough others above to deal with the captain & crew. Probably a dozen men, give or take a few. At the very minimum, eight men, all armed and prepared to kill. Even with a Blade, I don’t see how Shallan could have taken them all. She might have gotten a few, and if any of the crew were still free they might have able to help, but… All it would take to stop her is an arrow or some other projectile, or someone to sneak up behind her and bash her on the head, and she’s done for.
PeterAhlstrom @19
It was, just forgot to mention in my earlier comment.
“Is anyone claiming they saw “new kid” as a nasty foreshadowing in the previous chapter?” I definitely was suspicious of him.
On the other hand, I completely believed Jasnah was dead — the knife through the heart was too strong a piece of evidence, and I missed the missing body. (It’s not hard to miss something that’s missing, after all.)
Also, I haven’t read the last few posts, or been reading 17th Shard, so apparently I’ve missed something — where do we learn the association of Chanarach with the role of “Guard”?
@24: I don’t know that it would have helped for Shallan to feel guilty; I think it might have caused her to not develop her powers, because doing so would prove she could have saved the crew. As it is, I think she did the best she could when considering her mental state, and she shouldn’t feel any guilt.
@28: Did he specify if it was this chapter or the Prologue?
@32 I believe it was in reference to the Epilogue, with an implication that this chapter hinted at the same thing. I’m almost certain that in the Prologue she remains in the physical realm.
ETA: I’ll see if I can find the WoB, if I have time, though I welcome others to try to find it
Edit again: This is the conversation from the Philly signing, there may still be more about it out there
Q: When a Radiant is in the Cognitive Realm, does their mind exist individually, like separately from their body?
A: No. Q: So you physically travel to the Cognitive Realm?
A: You can kind of step in between both but you do not separate from your body.
Q: So when Shallan is only partly in–she’s in both at the same time? A: Yeah. She’s transitioning. It’s not astral projection. But no that’s a legit question.
Q: So Shallan, and Lightweavers, are capable of physically stepping into Shadesmar?
A: RAFO. (But the implication is yes.)
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6605-words-of-brandon-compiled/
Wetlandernew @@@@@30, Zizoz @@@@@ 32 – First off its not exactly guilt that I wanted rather an acknowledgment that mental/emotional barriers inhibited her from taking action that most likely would have saved the crew. This self-realization could provide the motivation to find the courage needed to ensure it didn’t happen again. As to Shallan not being the best swordsman, I agree. However, the culture on Roshar is so enamored with Shardblades that she wouldn’t have to do too much. Get the first two with surprise, and then just hold the shardplade confidently. The idea that you simply don’t fight shardbearers is so engrained in Rosharian culture that I believe the rest wouldn’t have engaged Shallan and she wouldn’t need any actual skill. But still, you are right, it is a risk. Sometimes heros have to take risks, and Shallan makes plenty of risks later on so we know she’s capable of doing so.
on my first read I stopped right after the Epigraph, convinced that one of Navani’s childern would die (convinced because the Epigraph is written > 60 days in the future). Then I read on and Jashan was killed. I was shocked again and saddend. Then I caught the missing body and started to doubt, then later the plot about the killing of Elhokar started and I doubted some more – still convinced one of the sibblings would die.
I’m so glad it didn’t turn out to be true, but starting the suspense with this epigrah was extremely well done.
Now to read the comments…
I definitely was suspicious of the new kid when he showed up, he just seemed very… grumpy. He wasn’t trying to make friends with his new crewmates which didn’t feel like a good thing to me.
I also had my doubts about Jasnah’s apparent death. “Death of the Mentor” is just such a trope and I had a hard time believing Brandon would be playing it without some sort of twist. I also didn’t think that Jasnah’s “death” wasn’t impactful enough, it happened and it was over. I was kind of “That’s it? That’s her death scene? Well that ain’t no Lord Cutler Becket (From Pirates of the Caribbean 3, has to be my favorite death scene ever)”. I couldn’t however totally convince myself that she wasn’t dead because Brandon could have known that people would have suspicions about his use of a trope and think he might have a twist planned and have the twist be that there is no twist (that got confusing…).
@1 I’m inclined to that that Yalb et al. did survive. There is a scene later on (I can’t remember exactly when) where Shallan is doing some random sketches. One of them is Yalb and some other people washed up on a beach. Which, admitedly, could just be wishfull thinking on the part of Shallan. One of the others though is of a woman taking a hammer and chisel to a statue, that has her face. This sounds a lot like Baxil’s Mistress, who is commonly believed to be Shalash, who is someone Shallan has no way of knowing about so why would she show up in Shallan’s drawings? Are these drawings some sort of vision? Well that is a dicussion for another chapter, long story short I think Yalb is alive.
I don’t post here often, so if this makes no sense please be gentle. :)
If Jasnah had moved herself to Shadesmar wouldn’t Shallan have seen her when she soulcasts shortly after?
@37 – I had that exact same thought which led me to think many wild ideas. Does everyone experience there own cognitive realm? Did Jasnah just teleport her way out of danger to a familiar part of Roshar and skip the cognitive realm for a later date? Did she abandon Shallan and the crew? How does she feel about that? Did she have a choice? SO MANY QUESTIONS!
I immediately thought she was dead and would not come back. I started to doubt after I calmed down a bit and kept reading the book. I hold to the rule: no body no death. That’s why I think Eshonai and some of the crew are still alive. Though Yalb could still be dead. Perhaps we will learn he had a heroic end.
Airsicklowlander @@@@@ 38 – We know that everyone doesn’t experience their own cognitive realm due to the scene in WoK where Jasnah rescues Shallan by pulling her onto her raft out of the sea of beads.
I don’t really know much about the other wild ideas; my personal thought is that she simply moved far enough away within Shadesmar that Shallan wouldn’t have seen her when Shallan was soulcasting.
Wetlandernw @23
Please let me know when you figure out where to get a real brain. I can use one too. Until then it’s going to be teamwork FTW.
Jimmre @37
Shadesmar is a big place. That may not be the correct explanation, but it is a plausible explanation. We don’t know enough about Shadesmar yet. :-(
ETA – which is pretty much what jeremyguebert @39 said while I was busy composing the rest of my comment.
I believe we all agree that Jasnah and Shallan needed to be separated to allow Shallan to mature. So how about the flip side? Will they resume their mentor/student relationship at some point in the future? I would like to see that happen because (1) I believe Shallan can still learn much of value from Jasnah: about Shadesmar and the transformation surge, Roshar history, etc., (2) there are likely a few things Jasnah could learn from Shallan that would benefit her, and (3) they make a good team with their complementary KR and intellectual skilz.
So where did “new guy’s” bandit buddies come from? I suppose they could have been trailing Wind’s Pleasure in another ship at a distance where they couldn’t be seen (after “new guy” boarded Wind’s Pleasure). They could have then sailed closer under cover of darkness and boarded WP just before the dastardly deed. Ah, but the how is probably less important than the who and the why. I don’t recall mention of the who and why, maybe I’ll be reminded as we progress down the reread path.
jeremyguebert @39
Ah yes. Thanks for that reminder.
Ok, not caught up on comments yet, but when I look at the ship being convinced to become water, I wonder if we could meet that ‘water’ later and enable it to become a ship again.
That would be a shock for Tozbek!
@Wetlandernw 36
“I couldn’t however totally convince myself that she wasn’t dead because Brandon could have known that people would have suspicions about his use of a trope and think he might have a twist planned and have the twist be that there is no twist (that got confusing…).”
Therefore, I can clearly not drink the wine in front of me!
@Ways, 40
Weren’t these associates of Shallan’s con artist mentor (her name escapes me at the moment)?
Wookster125 @@@@@ 43 – Indeed, they were. Tyn was in charge of the operation and orchestrated the attempted assassination.
Unlike most of you more perceptive folk, I completely bought that Jasnah was dead after seeing the sword driven straight through her heart through the rest of the body. As Jasnah had been my favourite character in WoK (just shading Kaladin), her “death” so early in this book completely shook me, and I don’t think I was in much of a state to take much notice of her missing body. I read the rest of the chapter in a kind of daze. Whatever faint hope I might have had that she somehow survived was slowly extinguished as the book went on. I agree she needed to be out of the picture in order to allow Shallan to grow, which in fact reinforced my conviction that she was really dead.
When she reappeared in the Epilogue, ironically I had mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I was overjoyed that she wasn’t dead after all, but on the other hand I though Sanderson had cheapened the powerful emotion he had aroused in me when killing her off.
I remember feeling the same emotion in WoT, when Moiraine sacrificed herself to take out Lanfear at the end of tFoH. No matter how many times I read that scene I always shed a tear with Rand in the shed while reading her last letter – “you will do well”. And then Jordan hinted in aCoS that she would be coming back… I felt kind of led down, even though I loved Moiraine and was glad she came back.
I was in a daze like Alison. I definitely missed the missing body. I held on to hope thinking Jasnah would show up at the Shattered Plains and cause Shallan to lose credibility in Navani’s eyes, considering their relationship was already strained. As that failed to happen I slowly came to accept her death. Her return surprised and delighted me. I’m glad BWS revealed it this book and didn’t wait. A friend of mine views her and Szeth’s returns from death as bad writing decisions and an inability to kill off characters, but I think there is too much to gain from them both to have them gone at this point. And maybe my friend relates BWS too closely to Jordan and not close enough to Martin… but I’m very happy with where BWS has fallen on that spectrum (due to Mistborn) and never feel like I know for sure what to expect. I certainly thought Szeth was a goner.
I’ve actually been surprised at how few accusations of “bad author!” have resulted from the multiple not-deaths in this book. (Maybe I just don’t hang out where the nay-sayers are. Oh, shucks.) Each one individually seems right for the story, but in a way it did seem a bit much that each one turned out to not be dead. (I’m thinking of Jasnah, Syl and Szeth.)
One thing that definitely made Jasnah’s not-death work better for me was the way the Epilogue was written. She comes back with all this information, only to find out that it’s all OBE. How very, very frustrating! Also, the fact that her escape is an inherent but extremely limited aspect of the magic system. I agree that it was far better to put her return in this book than to wait for another book; that would have felt wrong to me, no matter how much he insisted that it was always part of the plan.
Just so Sadeas doesn’t come back.
@44 and 43
Totally forgot that.
Is our only theory for the assassins getting on board that the New Kid let them on in the dark? It seems a little stretched.
It it almost seems intentionally vague, like this will be explained later. I have two ideas.
1) The New Kid was one of several temporary crew members picked up. Shallon doesn’t recognize them because she’s a passenger with stuff on her mind. Maybe you don’t need that many men to tie up 8 unsuspecting, unarmed people at night.
2) There was a big ship that came alongside which the assassins boarded from. Like a pirate ship. A smaller ship could be swatted away easily by an intelligent crew right? A big ship would be more visible I guess, though. Either way, wouldn’t all the swimming people just get back on the other ship and then return to port and send messages about their mission? Somehow Yalb got control of it and he’s the Dread Pirate Roberts that will show up for the rescue sometime :) but that doesn’t explain the drawing.
Nothing quite works in my head. Why didn’t Shallon tell us how many bad guys there were. She sees all the life flames from shadesmar and does enough math to figure out that 3 of the 8 captives were dead.
some thoughts:
1) how Jasnah survives is a bit of a mystery. The assassin that stabs Jasnah certainly believes he succeeded so we have to assume that he felt the blade go into a body and so on. He wouldn’t have been fooled by some sort of illusion. Now if Jasnah had a spare dead body with her in a trunk or something I could perhaps imagine her soulcasting that body to look like her. But again I don’t think the assassins would be so incompetent as to not notice ‘she’ was already dead when they dragged her out of the bed.
So it’s most likely that she used healing abilities to heal herself very rapidly after the knife thrust and then completely moved to Shadesmar. It’s possible her ability to fake her death and not react to being stabbed (also not sure but don’t think this is the first time her body has been stabbed in this attack) is because her mind is already at least partially in Shadesmar. From reading other comments we know her mind isn’t completely separate from her body but I’d say it’s possible her consciousness isn’t really “in” her body that much during the moments we see it and this is why it seems so lifeless but she is still able to heal it while her mind is in Shadesmar.
2) Peter pointed out that the herald/symbolism is for fire but I thought that “guard” worked just fine in regards to the ship itself protecting the crew and captain.
3) I thought she was really dead. Sometimes when an author has too strong of a character that character has to die simply so that the younger ones can accomplish things ala Obie Wan at the end of Episode 4, or Kelsier in Mistborn. This especially happens in shows where one character knows too much about what is going on to the point that it can be a heavy handed trope if done wrong. There’s plenty of shows where they find someone who is about to tell them all the answers! and you KNOW that person is dead meat and, yeah, like 20 seconds later they die from an assassin’s bullet or whatever. WoKs isn’t THAT bad but in a lot of settings being a person with all the answers is like being a Red Shirt in Star Trek.
But what really sold me on it was Navani’s sorrow. It just felt so real (because it is) that it made me feel it too. And Sanderson has never hesitated to kill a character when it was needed.
4) While it has been stated that soulcasting water is tricky there’s a couple of factors. First, afaik the spheres you are using and what type they are influence that you can do with soulcasting. Shallan seems to have a mixed bag there but its still a factor. Second, I seem to recall Jasnah saying that she is better with some essences than others. It could be different people have different strengths or that different orders/bonded-spren have different strengths kind of like men and women being stronger at different types of channeling in WoT. Third, Shallan and Jasnah’s abilities are similar to what someone can do with a soulcaster but there definitely seems to be some differences so maybe it is hard to do with a soulcaster device but not the same for a Knight. Fourth, they’re also surrounded by water so maybe that makes it easier but probably not. Fifth, as has been mentioned the ship seems to be on her side and agree to this so it’s probably easier to soulcast anything when the item is in agreement with you so to speak.
@24 I agree that it frustated me that Shallan doesn’t just start kicking butt and taking names and that people die because of that. But, that’s not really the sort of person she is in general and certainly not at this point in her character arc. I do agree with you and hope that she will notice and acknowledge that her actions might have lead to others dying and if Brandon notices these comments (or if Peter passes it along) I hope Brandon will think about it and address it either in the books or outside. I’d be fine with him saying “Yeah I thought that about that and…*explain*”
btw, HUGE thumbs up to Alice for mentioning the Modified Stationary Panic and Full Bore Linear Panic. Most people probably don’t get those references but it made me LOL and smile ear-to-ear to see someone reference Patrick F. McManus :D
@50 Sixth, she has Pattern there to intercede. He claimed he was just translating, but perhaps his presence helped pursuade the ship and ease the transformation.
Joe @51 – I smile ear-to-ear just thinking about the MSP and FBLP… it was irresistible. Glad someone caught it!
When I was reading the soulcasting essences explanation I was under the impression they only applied to a soulcaster fabrial.
Maybe that’s true and KR that can Transform have different rules: either some are better with other elements (essences), or there are no “better” elements at all.
Basically if you use a fabrial you can soulcast based on the gem / essence combo, but if you do it “naturally” you can soulcast anything into anything. Maybe that can be a Brandon question? (unless there’s an answer to this already that I missed :))
It is rather likely that you can add Eshonai to that list… Sanderson may have had good reasons for what he did with these “fake deaths”, but I think that the device really is overused here and I would prefer it, if it was not used again in the next few books. If we get Zombie-Sadeas in the next book I might actually throw the book against a wall ^^
I have to say that I was convinced of Jasnah’s death in this chapter and very much annoyed by it.
I am sick and tired of the trope that people, who are actually aware of the threat in advance and research it have to die, so that Our Adolsecent Heroes ™ can rediscover everything important flying by the seat of their pants, in the nick time and also usually prove their scholarly predessors to have been largely wrong in the bargain! Ahem.
Anyway, the way Shallan’s story was shaping up after this chapter, Jasnah’s contribution still remained crucial throughout, so it wasn’t so bad. But I didn’t mind getting her back in the end, even though I am usually of “there aren’t enough deaths in this allegedly madly risky/hopeless endeaviour” and “dead should remain dead” school of thought.
Szeth’s survival did irritate me though.
Never for a moment did I believe that Syl stuff would stick, so dindn’t mind it.
As to Eshonai, it has been thoroughly established how protective the Sharplate is, so I wouldn’t even call it a fake death of any kind.
But what made me believe in Jasnah’s death was that I couldn’t see why she woudn’t have used the Stormlight-filled gems from her chest to heal herself and open a can of lethal Soulcasting whup-ass on the assassins.
Now, Jasnah can be ruthlessly practical, even though she is not without compassion, so I could see her her sacrificing the ship and it’s crew if she had a good enough reason.
But letting go of her irreplaceable book sources and many years of research not all of which could plausibly be stored in her bran?
Or of a promising protegee and budding surgebinder in Shallan?
No, I couldn’t see it, so I didn’t believe in “soulcasted body double” or whatever. And it is only later in WoR that we have learned that surgebinders can survive almost anything short of decapitation so long as they have Stormlight.
Anyway, the only way I can now envision Jasnah’s escape is that she was half-conscious and/or panicked and reflexively did something that she had never tried before… whereupon she became trapped in Shadesmar and couldn’t do anything about the ship or Shallan in time for it to make a difference.
I have to say, that I did begin to doubt Jasnah’s death in later chapters due to the fact that the _only_ person who really mourned her was Navani. Yet we were previously given to understand that Dalinar loved and trusted her and that she had good relationship with her cousins. And even if Elokhar didn’t have a good relationship with her (it hasn’t been made clear in the books), surely her being _assassinated_ should have struck a cord and resulted in a stronger and lengthier reaction.
So, yea, it started to look to me that either there was bad writing re: fallout of Jasnah’s death or Sanderson was scrimping on mourning for when an important character really _did_ die. So, towards the end of the book, I was pretty certain that Jasnah would be back. Didn’t expect it so soon, but it was a good choice, IMHO.
As to Lightweavers being able to enter Shadesmar in the flesh, I remember reading somewhere that they can do so, along with Willshapers and Elsecallers, but only the latter were really pros at exploring Shadesmar and interacting with various spren civilizations. This may have been an epigraph, in the wiki or in WoB.
Isilel @56 – “Anyway, the only way I can now envision Jasnah’s escape is that she was half-conscious and/or panicked and reflexively did something that she had never tried before… whereupon she became trapped in Shadesmar and couldn’t do anything about the ship or Shallan in time for it to make a difference.”
That’s pretty much the conclusion I’ve reached as well, though I hadn’t actually tried to make sense of it yet. In the epilogue she says “I was somewhat pressed at the time of my escape” – though even then, it’s not entirely clear whether this particular “escape” was from the ship or from Shadesmar. Either way, it’s probable that she hadn’t practiced Elsecalling a lot, and it’s almost certain that she was surprised by the attack on the ship.
Speaking of which… I have to admit that the middle of the ocean, 7 days out of the last port and about that far from the next, one could logically assume that assassination attempts would be minimal. Since Bellaberry brought it up @49, now I have to wonder how the assassin crew found them in the middle of the night. It’s not clear just how far from the shore they were; perhaps a small boat could find harborage along the coast, but there’s nothing big enough for something like the Wind’s Pleasure? If that’s the case, they could have been waiting along the coast, sighted the Wind’s Pleasure, and then followed at night, with “new kid” ready to secure the boat and help them aboard. (Current best guess.)
If Shallan’s later drawing is correct and there were a few survivors, it’s likely they came ashore in the assassins’ boat, I suppose. There’s still the issue of how they got loose and how they overcame the assassins and got possession of the boat, but I’m willing to believe they could have done it. Yalb, after all.
First, I need to reread the battle. Because I don’t really recall Eshonai being blown away or killed. But put me in the camp of: Nope, not dead.
Second, yes, I hope this is the last time we get a death fake out. Unless it’s of the GRRM type, where we know person is alive, but the characters are left believing otherwise. However, if that is used, only use it once. It’s a crutch for GRRM. :-/
Therefore I hope Jasnah joins the others ASAP in book 3.
And I’m with Alice and a few others, glad Jasnah’s return was not stretched out. But I am starting to wonder if each book is going to end with Wit talking to someone / something.
Re: Assassins finding them.
Could the ‘new kid’ and maybe a few other new sailors have some type of fabrial that acts as a homing beacon? So the other ship was waiting near the area they expected the Winds Pleasure. But once they got into striking distance the assassins move in.
@58 – I really hope that each book continues to end with Wit talking to someone. Those two chapters have been two of my absolute favorites in both books. I know in our re-read of WoK a few people expressed a distaste for Hoid’s sometimes childish humor. But count me in the camp of people absolutely in love with this character.
I don’t know for absolute fact, but I think the intent is that for the first five books, the prologue and epilogue “bookends” will be similar. I.e. we already know that the first five prologues will be different POVs of the night Gavilar was assassinated; I have the impression that each epilogue will be Wit greeting someone unexpected. Or at least Wit talking to somebody. Not sure why I have that impression, but I do. I hope it’s true.
Re: Wit’s sense of humor – if the childishness were a defining aspect, I might find it distasteful, but he’s got such depth and so many facets that I think of it as just being the one he shows to people he wants to underestimate him, or those he wants to irritate just for the fun of it. Sometimes they’re the same people, of course…
Also: Braid_Tug @58 – Eshonai fell into a chasm while fighting Adolin; it’s the only way he survived. He maneuvered her to the edge, then tackled her, knocking her off. The only reason he didn’t follow her down was that a couple of bridgement caught him and pulled him back. But I’m going with the “no body, no death” principle on this one. I want her to come back, and somehow beat the voidspren and get her old self back. Really, really want.
I thought Jasnah was dead. I was surprised he would kill this early in the series and I certainly did not expect that. However, since I had not have the time to attach myself overly to her, I did not feel too troubled by her death.
By the end of the book, though, I was not so surprised she turned out being alive and I was quite happy. I now feel her story plot is far from finished and killing her just to remove characters would have hinder the story more than it would have helped. Jasnah still has a story to tell and I wish to hear it.
I was angry at Szeth’s revival though. I have never liked Szeth and I have never enjoyed reading his POV. I found them tedious as reading the rambling of a mad man is not that interesting, to me as least. I was glad he was finally dead and I felt his story could have ended there easily, but turns out Brandon had other plan. I must admit I am not too keen on reading a book from Szeth’s perspective as I feel no sympathy nor interest towards him, but I guess I have to trust Brandon to pull it of. I just hope we won’t get another Kal/Szeth shown down because I felt we went down this trail already.
I never thought Eshonai was dead. Defeated, but not dead. She was in Stormform and Stormform is very strong and endurant. She had her plate and I believe it was intact. She fell down the chasm, but I never took for granted it meant she was dead. I wonder if she is going to held a grudge against Adolin for defeating in such a bold way. She knew it was him she was fighting and she knew she was winning, up until he pulled this crazy stunt. Must suck to be routed out this way.
Sadeas is dead, dead, dead. It has been confirmed, so fear not people, zombie Sadeas is not planned for next book.
Braid_Tug@58 That homing beacon fabrial is a good idea. I was wondering if there was something special about them but rejected it since they were thugs and not really KR material. Maybe the fabrial could have been in either ship to be usefull.
@58 and @62 – I agree. We’ve seen paired fabrials and proximity-warning fabrials, so why not a paired homing-beacon fabrial? Wish I’d thought of it… I could have had something for Ars Mechanica after all. :)
@62 & 63: Glad you like my homing-beacon idea. I was thinking of the paired span-reeds. I know those don’t work well over water, but you’re trying to write with them.
I thought a beacon would be a much simpler item. At lease the technology of the world does make it a possible idea.
@@@@@ homing-beacon conversation – I really like this idea! However, I think it is a little advanced to show up in this particular scene.
We know that Navani is at the forefront of Fabrial technology and there is no in-text reference to such a device. She only introduces the idea of creating facrials that pull substances (i.e. to use as water pumps and actually used during the battle on the shattered plains as de facto de-humidifiers) in Chapter 67.
The homing-beacon feels as though it would work under the opposite principle as the Conjoined fabrials she introduces in Chapter 35 (these also show up in the shattered plains battle – holding the tarp so that the archers would have a dry place from which to shoot. These are the newest fabrials and I feel as though the fabrial community has not reached homing-beacon yet. Besides, BWS is very good about introducing ideas, concepts and technology that the characters use well before they use them for something as clandestine as a nigt, maritime assassination.
Maybe the assassins had a proximity-warning fabrialwere and, based on naval route calculations, were lying in wait in the middle of the night in the general area where the Winds Pleasure should pass on that particular night. IIRC, a proximity-warning fabrial would be able to tell them the general location of an approaching vessel.
Again, I absolutely love Braid_Tug’s idea (I’m giving you my invisible Tor upvote!) and think it is an extremely plausible in-world device.
Great comments. They are always great but chapters 6 and 7 have been exceptional.
Nothing to add but chiming in with my votes.
Immediately suspected new guy but thought Jasnah was really dead. Glad she is back.
Re Eshonai, her survival doesn’t simply depend on surviving the fall into the chasm but also not drowning. She fell during not one but two highstorms. The water levels would have been rising dramatically shortly after she got in there. The “survival degree of difficulty” just skyrocketed. That said, I think she is alive and if she is, won’t consider it a “come back from the dead” moment.
As to Szeth, I love the character. When he died, I thought “well, BWS has been preparing us for a flashback book from a deceased character.” However, I did not like him coming back to life. Unlike Jasnah, it just felt wrong, like deus ex machina but unneccesary because it was only separated by a few chapters from when he died. I would rather have seen some scene where Kaladin had to choose between Szeth and the honor blade or Nalan whisking Szeth away (or some combination of both).
On a tangential line of thinking, Nalan revives Szeth with something like a “regrowth” fabrial and we have already seen soulcasting fabrials. This makes me wonder if all ten surges will have corresponding fabrials. Thoughts?
I too, mostly bought into Jasnah’s death and was very upset about it, figured it made sense because of her role as Mentor yet was was surpised it happened so early, and slowly accustomed myself to it, only to find she was alive and feel happy about it…and a litle disappointed. However, it is quite logical that she would survive, because she IS a surgebinder, and one who can transport herself away physically at that. It also makes that she would have barely escaped her death and thus didn’t have the ability to protect Shallan and the crew–because even if you are a surgebinder, a knife through the chest is still a big shock, and it isn’t like Jasnah would have had tons of opportunity to experience her surgebinder healing skills. I believe that she was exhausted on the trip and so did not properly anticipate assasins, was caught unaware by her attackers and so allowed them to seriously injure her, (she may have badass powersbut she’s still been a scholar most of her life, not a warrior) and only her surgebinder nature gave her that extra bit of toughness to survive a mortal would for enough time to get out of there quick. That she had some adventures in Shadesmar that sound very interesting is what made her return acceptable to me. Well, also I LOVE her, but because she came back looking like she’d had some struggles we never expected and learned some things that will only enrich the story even further, her not-death really fits the story. So yes, it is a bit Gandalf- and Moiraine-esque, but Brandon did it well so I’ll drink to that.
Szeth…that one was more frustrating, but it could also be that I just don’t like the dude anymore, and moreso that I don’t entirely feel like I understand him. I agree that I trust Brandon well enough on this matter for now.
On why Shallan was able to soulcast water, the soulcasting properties associated with Shash are blood and all non-oil liquids, so maybe she’s naturally better at that than Jasnah, who might be better at oil instead?
The assassins work for the Ghostbloods, who seem to have world-travelers. They could have access to technology that is unfamiliar in Roshar. Even if the assassins themselves don’t know much about such things someone could have given them some gadget and explained how to use it.
Still wondering about where the Chanarach-Guard connection comes from, by the way. A quick search of 17S turned up nothing.
@56 Szeth shouldn’t have survived.Last I saw he had his blade taken from him in mid air and hence no stormlight to stop him from dying on impact.Not sure how that was justified,but whatever!!
@71 Yes, Szeth’s blade was taken from him, but his bond to it wasn’t broken until he died, so the damage may not have been as severe as to someone who couldn’t use stormlight (he could still use it until his death). Then Nin revived him using some sort of advanced fabrial CPR machine
@72 Not sure about that,he’s not a Radiant so I thought he had to be physically touching it to hold Stormlight at all.And I think he was dead,doubt Kaladin would miss a wide open target.
It seems that he died when Kaladin severed his spine, but the bond to honorblades may be different from bonds to shardblades. We know his bond is broken now, but we don’t know if lingering effects may have helped preserve his body before Nalan found him.
Zizoz @70
Me too. I thought that was a good question when you inquired upthread. Chanarach’s role as guard sounds right for some reason, but I don’t recall why.
Zizoz @70 & previous – Rats. I meant to answer this the first time and forgot. Truth is, I’m not sure where I first heard about the roles associated with the various Heralds, but I know I’d heard about it elsewhere. The list I’m working from came from conversation with Peter, so I’m pretty sure it’s accurate… but I’m not sure the whole thing is published anywhere.
Most of it can be readily derived simply from what we’ve learned about the Heralds already: Jezrien = King, Nalan = Judge, etc. That said, it’s also important to realize that these are traditional Vorin idealizations, not necessarily actual characteristics of the individuals who were once Heralds. I also recall hearing that there is a Madness associated with each… but I know there’s not much info about that flying around. (Yet.) Based on absolutley nothing, I sort of assume that the Madnesses are the “inside-out” versions of the Attributes or something of that nature.
Jeremy – that would be a cool thing to ask Brandon about. See if you can get him to spill something about the Madnesses. Of course, there’s a reasonable chance you’d just get a RAFO on that, and have wasted one of your questions, so… maybe not.
@73 MorpheusStone etc.
Szeth can use Stormlight without being in physical contact with the Honorblade.
-In the Prologue to WoK, he breathes in Stormlight and begins using Lashings on the guards before he summons his Blade.
-And remember what happened when he went to assassinate the king of Jah Keved. Eventually he dismissed his Blade and just used Lashing to fight the king and all his Shardbearers and other guards. If I remember correctly, it even says something like “Szeth was the weapon.”
And as far as Szeth dying, I think he was dead…or at least as dead as Gawx (was that his name?) whose throat was slit and then he was revived by Lift (via Regrowth, like the fabrial Nalan has) several minutes later. So apparently that Regrowth is some pretty powerful stuff. ;)
@45 Alisonwonderland, et al. (fake deaths)
I, like you, was a little let down and happy at the same time when Jasnah returned. I felt a bit cheated. This in addition to the other fake deaths (Syl, Szeth, Eshonai maybe) kind of ripped me out of immersing myself in this fantastical world and brought me back to the reality that I was reading a created book of fiction. The whole discussion of whether or not these deaths would be better for character development, or plot, etc just goes to re-inforce that the story isn’t real, that the world is fake, and that some person is just pulling all the strings in order to produce a more interesting story.
I like to be able to read a story and forget that it was written by an author and instead feel like I am lucky enough to be a fly on the wall watching as extraordinary events occur. Fake deaths tend to rip me out of this immersion. In reality people die. Death doesn’t care about plot points, or character development, or if observers really like that person, it just happens. So does it make sense for Jasnah to be alive from a plot perspective? yes. Am I happy that an intersting character that could significantly contribute positively to the story is a live? sure. Does it make the book feel less real? Yes
@77 Being bonded to the blade is the same as weilding it.The point was that being seperated from it shoulda ended his powers.I suppose Regrowth is possible,if that’s what was done to him.
I follow Tor blogs a lot, particular this re-read and previously WOT, but never commented before. Altough always enjoy the depth of understanding gained by reading everyone’s comments – thanks so much for enhancing my understanding!
Anyooo… for the first time ever I also attended a book signing, and it was Sanderson’s here in London, and I’m really excited about the reading he did! I’ll white it out for those who don’t want to be spoilled to Stormlight 3, but as I’ve seen people post about his other previous stormlight 3 reading I hope this is ok. It’s also relevant to the discussion on this thread.
Stormlight 3, just written, no edit or revision – SPOILLERS
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Start here
I’m not going to attempt to transcribe it, this is what I got and writing from memory – so my words here. I’m sure others recorded it and will post it elsewhere, but a couple of points from his reading of Jasnah in Shadesmar (!!):
– It starts with her describing the pain and strangeness of feeling the knife go through, and how she would never forget it. She is curious how she managed to not die/get to shadesmar and the academic in her wants to work it out, but is too shaken by the process to think straight.
– Ivory is there in a black odd looking sharp suit, he is described as being the colour of oil on water
– Ivory states something like: A person full of stormlight cannot be killed unless it’s by a blow to the head. (Yes blow, not decapitation.)
– She is fully in Shadesmar as predicted by many here.
– Jasnah had travelled to Shadesmar fully before but always needed Ivory’s help. She can get there partially without his help. (don’t quote me on this one)
– She sees the ‘light’s that she believes are the souls fo the other people on the boat, sees one go out and realises they attackers are killing them. Ivory says ‘souls’ is not quite right description, but doesn’t explain more.
– Ivory is still not very articulate despite years of bonding
– She wants to look for the ‘junction’ to be able to return to the physical world, but Ivory explains that because she is Shadesmaar in full, there is no junction.
END
Ok, hope those who are curious enjoy that and do check it against anyone who took better notes/recordings, this is my recollection of last evening and the things that stuck in my mind.
Sadly I couldn’t stay to get my book signed as had promised to help girlfriend practice for a job interview and the queue was long. So couldn’t ask any pertinent questions, another time!
And again, thanks everyone for really adding to my enjoyment of these books.
Cheers
popi
@80: There is a full audio link and a transcript on the 17th shard:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/14339-qs-and-as-from-the-london-signing/
For those who want to read/listen to it. It feels good to hear about Jasnah again.
@80, PopiOak:
First, welcome to commenting!
Second, wow! What a section to get to hear. Yes, very timely.
Third, you lucky duck. Getting the white out to work. I’ve been in the black for 3 years and still have trouble making white out work.
@81, Thanks for the link. Man are Sanderson’s fans fast.
@@@@@80, 81 – Wow, thanks for sharing! Very fascinating information, and incredibly relevant to this week’s discussion.
One of the most haunting lines I’ve ever read: “She would remember dying for as long as it took for the darkness to claim her again”
Wetlander @@@@@ 77 – While I certainly agree that more information on the Madness would be fascinating, Brandon’s tendency to RAFO just about everything directly to the Heralds makes me hesitant about asking.
Great stuff!! Popi, after reading your summary and the transcript, I’d say you have a pretty good memory. :D Wow.
FWIW, the rest of the thread on 17th Shard has some good stuff, as well. (Nazh is from Threnody? Huh.)
Jeremy, I still owe you a list of questions. I’ll try to get that posted here this afternoon. When you see Brandon, make sure you tell him that you’re doing the Tor reread!
Random thought… After having seen Guardians of the Galaxy over the weekend, I’m wondering if Stick (“I am a stick!”) was a bit of a play on/homage to Groot. (“I am Groot!”)
Have people seen the deleted scene from WOR that Brandon posted on his site?
http://brandonsanderson.com/words-of-radiance-deleted-interlude-stick/
I found it pretty funny!
Speaking of scenes, Brandon posted a scene with Jasnah from StormLight 3: Revenge of the Szeth
Spoilers, of course, but great to read!
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/08/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance
And… Wow! So, so good. Seemed like it was going to be the same as the recent Manchester reading and then it kept going!
So, we’ve all been off on the “how” the assassination went down. Braid_Tug should still get royalties when they finally make that fabrial ;)
Okay, if you haven’t done it, go over there and READ THAT SCENE. It’s got even more than was posted here yesterday. BWS says its not canon, but I think some of the essentials are, and are totally relevant to this chapter’s discussion, and we NEED to talk about it here! So from here on down, that scene may be addressed in the comments. Go read it first, because SPOILERS AHOY!
Grinders? Cool. Or… well… not cool… :P
So, okay, we knew that spren often manifest differently in the Cognitve and Physical realms, but that’s crazy! I wonder if Grinders can directly affect the cognitive aspect of the person feeling the pain? Umm… that’s kind of creepy to think about. As someone commented on the discussion there, it rather puts the kibosh on escaping battles via Shadesmar, doesn’t it?
I wonder what the cognitive manifestation of rotspren look like…
I wonder if other cognitive versions of spren will be fitting like the pain spren. Think about it. Would you want to be around someone that was attracted to, or fed off of other peoples’ pain? Would you consider them harmless?
Could passion spren be cute and cuddly on the other side?
After all our discussion of how Jasnah could have faked a body double, it’s pretty cool to learn that she didn’t. I’m sure there was some discussion of healing with Stormlight, but it actually didn’t occur to me that being stabbed through the heart could be less than fatal. So it really was Jasnah, and they really did drive a knife right through her heart and hit the deck underneath… and when they left her “dead” she was helped bodily into Shadesmar.
At first I was surprised and pleased, and then I decided I really shouldn’t have been surprised at all. FWIW, I now strongly suspect that we’ll learn that Jasnah spent the entire intervening time in Shadesmar. I also suspect that time may feel different there.
Now I am wondering, if windspren are associated with honorspren (like Syl), which other spren are associated with other spren? Could even painspren be associated with an Radiant-spren?
Which spren would we have? Riverspren? Creation-spren? Growth-spren? Which others?
Agree with you, Alice. Jasnah’s description of feeling the knife going in was powerful.
Also, note the wording used to convey Ivory’s explanation of Stormlight healing,
Along with Nin’s explanation of Szeth’s survival from WoR, Ch. 88
and the implication is that the brain is the connection between the physical, cognitive and spiritual realms. As long those synapses are still firing in the brain, one’s life can still be saved, no matter what has happened to the rest of the body. KR seem to have that ability and non-KR with the fabrials seen in Dalinar’s vision and with Nin/Szeth.
From the text, it seems that she was planning on “playing dead” but ended up Elsecalling. My question is, if Jasnah actually died (save for her brain) how exactly did she Elsecall? Was it instinctual? Did Ivory play more of a role? Thoughts?
@93 – Exactly! I remember from WoB Q&A that someone touched on this and (without going and re-checking right now) Brandon at least “implied” that each order has their own “type” of spren. I think when describing Syl, Brandon even said “wind- Honor Spren”, implying that Honor Spren are a step up from wind Spren. So we’re looking at 10 upperclass KR spren and possibly a similar number of Odium Spren, although WoB is that there isn’t a 1-to-1 ratio.
Edit:
I may have jumped the gun on this. Here is the WoB from the Philadelphia signing
So, I may be on the right track with the wind-Honor relationship OR Brandon may have just been speeking fast and caught himself saying something that wasn’t correct. Anyone there and can add more to this quote?
Jasnah wasn’t healed in that scene. Her physical body is completely in Shadesmar. She is almost out of Stormlight and is saving what she has left to transport back to the physical realm. The knife must have turned into a bead of Cognitive Goodness (TM), but Jasnah still has a deadly wound in her vitals. And she is bleeding out. I am surely missing something here because a trip to the local ER seems like the first order of business.
Sorry Ways, I went back and reread everything a few times to be sure and still feel the same. As Jasnah comes awake, she is remembering the feeling of the knife going into her and then of process of dying. Then,
The language could is not quite polished but throughout that section, she always references the “feelings“ from the knife going into her using past tense, and that last sentence is pretty clear, she was healed by the stormlight she sucked in from the spheres in her dress.
From this perspective, the blood she feels and the hole in her dress are vestiges from the attack, and not due to current open wounds. This is more an indication of the time frame, we immediately know that this scene takes place during WoR Ch. 7 since the blood she feels hasn’t had time to “dry”.
The last remaining stormlight from those spheres, she then uses to help the crew, leaving her without stormlight for defense.
nakafre @97
That’s it. The last 2 words of that sentence put it all in perspective. Missed that early this morning.
That was a nicely done scene, even if a rough draft. The paragraph where Jasnah recalls dying gave me goosebumps.
Ways @98
Yeah, right? Me too! And talk about building expectations… did we really only “just” finish WoR?
Jeremy, if it’s not too late…
1. Is the order of the Ideals fixed? E.g. does Kaladin have to say the Windrunner Ideals in a specific order, or are they situation-specific?
2. Does Wit specifically treat people differently when he knows they’re (going to) have a spren bond? (E.g. Renarin, Dalinar)
3. When Honor speaks of his inability to see the future, he likens it to a shattering window. Is this related to the fact that in the not-too-distant future, he himself will be splintered? Or is it more a matter of Intent; e.g., Cultivation (and Preservation?) is geared toward future development, whereas Honor is geared toward current behavior.
4. There are hints in WoR that the thrill is tied to an individual entity that Taravangian has studied, possibly one of the Unmade. Does this have anything to do with the hints of why the KR turned away? Were the Unmade some of those who did whatever-it-was that tore them apart?
5. Syl gives Kaladin the choice to have any number of weapons or a shield. Pattern can be equally a sword or a small knife. Are spren limited to being items of war or could they be put to other uses? Could the surge binders less geared toward battle use their spren to make ladders, rope, etc?
(#2 & 5 credit to Bellaberry; #3 credit to… I don’t remember. It was on the WoR reread, though. Feel free to ask any, all, or none. But say hi for us here on the reread!)
Wetlander @@@@@ 100 – Not too late!
Writing from the hotel in Calgary. They hosted a pre-event reading/signing, and I’ve already had a chance to ask a few of my own questions – some very interesting stuff there, which I have taken notes on and will write up more properly after I get home. I will see if I can ask any of your questions at the Saturday night signing or anywhere else in the weekend. Again, I will report back properly once everything is said and done.
Have a fantastic time! :D (No worries there, I’m sure…)
101. jeremyguebert
One more, if I can.
We know that Mistborns needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?
@100: I can see #4 geting a RAFO, super fast.
@103: My guess would be a “yes.” Since anyone can use and gather breath. Also his world from the Unfettered anthology is Cosmere, and the magic just happens. You don’t have to snap in any way to use it.
@101: Enjoy! looking forward to your report.
104. Braid_Tug
Isn’t the Sanderson story in Unfettered (River of Souls) from the Wheel of Time?
Or are we thinking of different things?
Braid_Tug @104 – You must be thinking of a different anthology… Unfettered just has River of Souls. Maybe Sixth of the Dusk from Shadows Beneath? or Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell from Dangerous Women? (I’m only making a thing because I really want to think about which story you reference!!)
@106: Yep,I’m thinking of the story from Dangerous Women.
too many things going on.
In Shadows for Silence, people are dealing with magic and magical beings, but they aren’t really doing any magic.
I have not read Sixth of Dusk yet, other than the first page or two. But once again, was the guy using the magic, or just using the animals that use it? I really don’t know, as I have not read it.
Or are we really just talking about very different kinds of cracks, snapping and people damaged in very, very different ways?
Thanks, Braid_Tug! I love that story. There’s just so much we don’t know about that world or its magic. Clearly, in Shadows for Silence, the magic is used, but it seems a bit like using a fabrial on Roshar. You have this stuff, and you use it in this particular way, and it protects you from the bad stuff (which presumably results from the local magic system). We don’t even really know if it’s a natural result of the magic, or if it’s a result of massive abuse of the magic, or… what. I do hope we learn more about it sometime; I wonder if Brandon is going to write more on that world.
Sixth is a little more ambiguous, especially if you read all the back material. (Speaking of which… I have a book review to write. But this has been the Summer of the Flu, and it keeps getting in the way.) I’ll have to read the whole thing again before I comment on who I think is actually using the investiture, and how.
I looked over the Assassination scene several times on my first read, trying to prove to myself that it wasn’t real. About the third time I went across it, I noticed Shallan not noticing the body. I still let that pass as part of her panic. There was blood blossoming! How could that not be fatal? Besides, Brandon wants to make his own marks in the fantasy world. He wouldn’t rip off Jordan’s “death of Moiraine”, would he?
Regarding Shallan rejecting Pattern’s suggestion of the Sword: Once a person has applied great energy to suppressing events in their mind, and bricking them in behind a wall of decided ignorance, it is like tearing a piece of them apart to open that wall, and only the last possible shred of desperation will impel them to break it open themselves. As long as Shallan saw another way (soulcasting the ship, a far more complex action for her than swinging a Shardblade) to save anybody left aboard, she wouldn’t tear down the wall. (Actually, there’s another way to rip it open than desperation, it turns out. Avenging a dead mentor appears capable of doing it as well)
AndrewHB @7
About Shallan being forced to grow because nobody else was helping her, I saw an Ender parallel in that the moment she began connecting with other people. Ender’s need to act when he saw an issue was always there, but his ability to process HOW HE must act, was pressed upon him by knowing that there wasn’t a source of authority to depend upon. Likewise, Shallan is now completely alone for the first time. Even when she felt lonely aboard the ship upon leaving home, she was with a captain and crew who knew and respected her family. Then she was with Jasnah. Always, an authority figure to whom she could defer and remain subordinate.
Not now. She must trust her own morality, her abilities, and her spren.
I never once considered the chance that the recently acquired sailor would be important. Sometimes things just happen in a story, with no significance. Right?
Wetlandernw @30
Don’t too easily write off Shallan’s ability to defeat a large number of foes with her Blade. Pattern would certainly be assisting, the enemies would immediately go into full defense mode against a Shardblade, and last but not least, who knows what capacity would be unlocked by her deciding to accept the role of guardian-warrior? It seems to work that way, at least a little bit. However, a thoroughly moot position.
I did notice that when Jasnah told Shallan that not all the Knights Radiant actually fought, that Shallan was a bit disappointed.
I expect we will see Shallan use it a great deal more in the future. Now, if she could use both her light-weaving and shardplade simultaniously, we could have some very interesting fights.
I’m quite sure she’ll be able to do so. Now that she’s outed, and has no reason to hide what she can do (hopefully!), she should be practicing more and making even greater progress.
ETA: Welcome back, Freelancer! Been missing you around here.
Shallan’s attitude towards her Pattern shardblade has undergone an evolution. For a long time it was a reminder of its use in killing her mother and therefore became part of a suppressed memory, and carried the aura of an evil object. Shallan remembers and rejects the use of the blade when prompted by Pattern, due both to its evil aura and the fact that she doesn’t know how to wield it – other than pushing it into a surprised attacker. Professional assassins would quickly note her inexperience and would find ways of overcoming her. She does summon it successfully when her ostensible mentor, Tyn, is about to kill her. Her success, again, is due entirely to the element of surprise at suddenly confronting Tyn with a deadly weapon. She summons it again for Kaladin’s use in fighting the Chasmfiend – no qualms this time. Finally, she is forced to confront the scene of her mother’s killing by Pattern and to recognize that the blade is Pattern. She will use it, but needs training (it takes more than weaving illusions to defeat the enemy). Among the more likely trainers are Zahel, Adolin, Dalinar, or even Kaladin – although the latter could use more training himself.
I’d disagree with one point there. Shallan’s success in killing Tyn wasn’t so much surprise, as that her Blade materialized in Tyn’s chest…
@113 Kaladin could use some training if he wants to wield a shardblade, but he’s pretty effective using a shard spear. I wonder if anyone else might end up using a different shard weapon…I think a shard axe or mace could be pretty awesome!
@114 Wetlandernw,
Sorry to disagree with your disagreement. While the incident with a shardblade suddenly appearing in the hands of an 11 year old Shallan and being imbedded in her mother, is a bit unclear as to how inactive a role the girl played, that does not appear to be the case when Shallan later defends herself against Tyn who intends to use her sword to kill her. As a girl, Shallan could well be imagined as in a state of shock at her mother coming after her with a knife, and then a strange sword appearing suddenly in her hands. She needed only to hold it level and the momentum of her mother’s attack would cause it to pierce her. With Tyn, Shallan deliberately invokes the shardblade and uses it for self protection :
“Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward. Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest. The woman barely had time to gasp in surprise as her eyes burned in her skull. Tyn’s corpse slid back off the weapon, collapsing in a heap. ‘Difficult things,’ Shallan growled. ‘Yes, I believe I told you. I’ve learned the lesson already. Thank you.”
There appears to be ongoing discussion on several different threads, so I’m putting this in multiple places. I have returned from my vacation and written up a convention report. There is a full, detailed description of the entire convention (>5000 words, including the Q&A), or just the Q&A itself, which is just over 1000 words. Who would be interested in reading what? If there was enough interest in the full convention report, what would be the best way to make that accesible to people?
Jeremy – I WANT IT ALL!! :D
STBLST @116 – I guess it depends on who you’re talking about being surprised. In the paragraph you quoted, which I reread in context before writing my comment @114, it looks to me as though Shallan thrusts her hands forward and the Blade forms right in Tyn’s chest, with the twisting & writhing mist being the only warning or surprise she experienced before it killed her. Certainly Shallan is not surprised, and did it on purpose – but it doesn’t denote either skill or confrontation.
I intended only to point out that Shallan doesn’t manage to kill Tyn due to Tyn’s surprise at Shallan possessing a Blade and confronting her with it – she kills Tyn by deliberately materializing her Blade in the place where Tyn was advancing on her.
I’m probably way too late asking this to hope for a response, but what did Shallan soulcast the ship into? Soulcasting is about changing one substance into another, so did it change into sea-water, smoke, or what? Were we told and I missed it, or was it just left unclear?
The reason I ask is that Jasnah in WoK suggests that she has far more affinity with some substances than others and Shallan’s first inadvertant soul-casting turned a goblet into blood, so I end up imagining the ship turning into gallon upon gallon of blood!
Geordielass @119 – It’s never too late around here! :) I generally see when a comment is made on an old post, and if it’s a question, I just have to try to answer…
You’re quite right that we’re never specifically told what the ship changed into, though I always assumed it was simply sea-water. The only thing remotely resembling proof, though, is this:
That, and the fact that no other substances are mentioned, is about all I can come up with. I sorta think that gallons and gallons of blood might be… noticed?