Welcome back to the Words of Radiance reread on Tor.com! Last week Alice covered Chapter 11, in which a stick maintained ontological certainty in its stickness and Shallan nevertheless didn’t die of freezing.
This week I’ll tackle Chapter 12, which contains more science, less freezing, and an essentially equal amount of terrible surprises for our heroes.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance (a.k.a. TWoK and WoR, respectively), and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Chapter 12: Hero
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: The Chasms, Dalinar’s Warcamp
Symbology: Spears, Jezrien
IN WHICH Kaladin, Sigzil, Rock, and Lopen perform scientific experiments to measure magic; science proves insufficient due to lack of clocks; things and people are stuck to other things and people; sparring breaks out, in which Kaladin easily triumphs over his men; one-armed Herdazian jokes intensify; Kaladin discusses the Knights Radiant with Teft; Sylphrena and Teft urge Kaladin to reveal his power; a “hero” arrives, and is welcomed as an old friend by Dalinar Kholin; the “hero” is Amaram.
Quote of the Week:
“So,” Rock said as they waited, “Stormblessed leader, you said there was something else you could do, did you not?”
“Fly!” Lopen said from down the passage.
“I can’t fly,” Kaladin said dryly.
“Walk on walls!”
“I tried that,” Kaladin said. “I nearly broke my head from the fall.”
“Ah, gancho,” Lopen said. “No flying or walking on walls? I need to impress the women. I do not think sticking rocks to walls will be enough.”
“I think anyone would find that impressive,” Sigzil said. “It defies the laws of nature.”
“You do not know many Herdazian women, do you?” Lopen asked, sighing “Really, I think we should try again on the flying. It would be the best.”
Lopen is a man with simple tastes. He wants to fly, and if he can’t fly, he wants to walk on walls.
This chapter has all of my favorite bridgemen. Sigzil, Lopen, and Rock are so much more interesting than their compatriots, because they give us the most varied understanding of the world beyond Alethkar. Rock and Lopen also have the best senses of humor, and they’re clearly starting to rub off on Sigzil.
And Moash is nowhere to be seen. Go away, Moash!
Commentary: We have reached the last chapter of Part One, and with it comes a helluva twist. No one thought that Amaram was going to stay gone forever, obviously. Anyone who brands and enslaves an epic fantasy protagonist is going to be coming back for seconds. It’s more surprising, however, that he’s best friends with Dalinar, our favorite upper-class gentleman of means. Amaram is one of Sadeas’s vassals, which makes sense because he is an evil man working for another evil man, but it turns out that his honorable exterior long ago convinced Dalinar.
Amaram’s arrival sets up the rest of Kaladin’s internal conflict throughout the book. He almost trusts Dalinar, but the fact that the highprince is close to Amaram makes it impossible to really open up to him. Amaram is a living reminder of Kaladin’s destruction, and an ongoing proof that lighteyes can’t be trusted. So Kaladin will hide his powers from Dalinar, and believe that Dalinar doesn’t share his goals, and generally bitterly argue himself out of doing anything positive for hundreds of pages. Dang it, I made myself sad.
But before all that happens, we do get to see some cool time science experiments. I already kind of mentioned this, but I appreciate Sigzil too much to contain it to one section. As he was trained, he is doing his darnedest to apply the scientific method to this magic nonsense. He’s recording results, trying to get multiple estimations of time to approximate actual timekeeping in the lack of proper instruments, and trying to minimize the importance of uncontrollable variables. While it seems pretty hopeless, since many of the variables are TOTALLY uncontrollable (cut of gemstone comes to mind), this process will eventually lead to a reliable system of measurement, even if only thousands of years from now.
Of course, that’s presuming that all life on Roshar isn’t extinguished by Odium. I use that as a premise for all my long-term hypotheticals.
Sprenspotting: Rock, with his special alaii’iku ability to spot spren, points out that when Kaladin Lashes rocks to walls that they’re being held there by little spren. I’m going to guess that these are bindspren or gravityspren, convinced to act on things in exchange for Stormlight.
Ars Arcanum: Kaladin is getting creative with his Lashings. He doesn’t know it yet, but everything he does in this chapter is a Full Lashing, binding multiple objects together with the Surge of Adhesion. He mentions his other trick, giving a shield gravitational pull so that he doesn’t get killed by an infinite number of arrows, but can’t perform it in the absence of shields and arrows. This shows that, while he knows one application, he doesn’t understand the underlying capability. That other trick uses the Surge of Gravitation, showing that Kaladin has access to both his Surges, but like Shallan, he understands one of them better than the other. I’m looking forward to discovering what powers he will uncover beyond the three kinds of Lashings.
It’s also cool that Kaladin has to force himself to think beyond the passive value of Stormlight. He instinctively feels that the extra speed, strength, and healing provided by holding Stormlight are far more useful than these fancy tricks, but he also knows that it’s just because he hasn’t practiced the fancy tricks enough. Good spirit.
Heraldic Symbolism: Amaram is such a leader, and so protective, that you just can’t help but feel that he deserves his reintroduction chapter to be graced by the image of Jezrien.
Excuse me while I projectile vomit.
This is the end of Part One! Next week we will either launch into the Interludes or do a thorough examination of the epigraphs, depending on how the winds inspire us.
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
I feel like Charlie Brown re: Amaram.
AAAUGH!! I CAN’T STAND IT!
P.152: “I do not think sticking rocks to walls will be enough.” This is strange to me, because Lopen is concerned with whether he can use Kaladin’s powers to impress women…but it seems as if he knows that he will gain some of Kaladin’s powers for himself. Doesn’t it?
P. 157: “The best way to practice was to find someone who matched or bested you in strength, skill, and capacity.” What a nice foreshadowing, because that’s exactly what’s coming your way, Kaladin. You’ll sort of get your butt whooped, but you’ll learn a whole lot of new moves in the process.
And my favorite line: P. 156: “Was small tree.” When Rock hurled the tree at Kaladin, I suddenly started picturing him as Drax the Destroyer from Guardians of the Galaxy. Anybody else? No? Just me, then.
@@@@@ Carl – “I use that as a premise for all my long-term hypotheticals.” Well played. Have I mentioned that I appreciate your sense of humour?
This is a very fun chapter until the very end. I mean, really: trying to apply the scientific method to Surgebinding, Rock and the Lopen getting to exchange banter, Kaladin begining to open up to his abilities.
And then Dalinar is friends with Amaram. If anything, I think this just goes to show how successful Amaram has been at projecting his image of being honourable. It also upsets me a little bit that Kaladin is so hung up on this – after all, he was deceived by this false veneer for a time himself. Not that it’s not believeable, but I wish he could have given Dalinar more of the benefit of the doubt.
Hey, give Amaram a break, esteemed readers. He believes he’s doing the right thing…and at least he apologized to Kaladin when he branded him. What an honorable guy!
Rock and Sigzil are awesome, but Lopen continues to be the best. Ever. Easily one of my favorite BWS characters, and with so much potential now that he’ll be drawing stormlight in future books.
While a lot happened with Shallan in the opening section, I remember being a bit disappointed that we hadn’t progressed with Kaladin’s character much, and the reappearance of Amaram so quickly (I expected it late this book) made me groan, as I expected Kaladin might revert to his old grumpy, mistrustful self. And yay, I was right…
It had never quite registered until today, just how much whiplash this chapter gives you. Really cool beans going on, with all the experimentation (and I, too, adored Sigzil’s efforts to apply the scientific method!) and Kaladin learning to consciously control the Stormlight. Fun with the bridgemen, fun with Kaladin, and then . . . SNAP!
AND it’s the end of Part I.
I am going to stick up just a *little* for Amaram.
I think he intends to be honorable, and wants to be honorable. He falters and cracks when things get hard. This isn’t so much a defense, as it pointing out that Amaram is not trying to be evil, or purely motivated by self-interest. He is just willing to let ends justify the means… which really just means that if you want something really bad, you will justify anything.
Of course, as our mothers always reminded us, “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”
Thats right @MDNY. No one acting for the “greater good” should ever be vilified. They are just trying to help. I mean it’s the GREATER good for goodness’ sake.
ZenBossanova @@@@@ 6 – Yeah, the whole ends justify the means thing is a big one. Especially in a series where the primary motto of the protagonists includes the phrase “Journey before destination” (emphasis added). This is ideologically the complete opposite of that mindset. Plus, even though he might not think of himself as trying to be evil, he obviously has enough problems with his own actions that he makes an effort to cover them up – to the extent that he kills people to cover up his lies, and (this is presumption on my part) orders his soldiers to lie on his behalf (e.g. Dalinar’s investigation). And then there’s the whole thing of his plan essentially being “let’s start the Desolation so that the Heralds come back”. I really don’t understand how someone can think that deliberately bringing about the apocalypse is a good idea…
@@@@@4,7 – Unless I’m completely misreading you both, the sarcasm is strong in these comments.
@8 Sarcasm, from me? Nah….
This chapter marked the beginning of my interest in Lopen as a character. Previously, he was funny and upbeat, which made him stand out from the bridgeman crowd. With his genuine interest in how Kaladin’s powers work, we see the first signs that he’s destined to become a squire.
I guess I shouldn’t assume that Lopen is destined for squirehood. He could be a budding Radiant himself, but we just don’t have the information to know for sure yet. I’m running with squire because they’re teased in the book and he seems to fit the general concept.
@6 There’s a lot of ends justifying the means going around on Roshar these days. It’s the glue that holds the numerous secret societies together and pits them against each other at the same time.
Amaram is probably the kind of leader who is respected by his people and vassals as long as they don’t get too close. He appears to be doing all the right things and embodying the virtues of a lighteyes in the process. Most probably aren’t aware of the price paid by those who stand in the way of his goals.
I also get the sense that most successful leaders in this kind of society are going to be like Amaram to an extent. They’ll try to impress the largest constituency possible by preying on the weak, the invisible, and those who can be played against each other.
This was quite a fun chapter, as the boys experiment with Kaladin’s powers. It’s good to see that they have something approximating the scientific method, and not at all surprising that Sigzil would be the one to know and have experience with it.
And then, Amaram had to enter and ruin the good time that everyone was having.
@8 Professor Frink’s sarcasm detector would be right off the charts, mm-hai.
I wonder which secret society can claim the greatest good. They all miss the mark in regards to truly helping Roshar, but I want the Ghostbloods to be a least a little helpful to our protagonists. They intrigue me the most.
I’m going to guess that these are bindspren or gravityspren, convinced to act on things in exchange for Stormlight.
The jury still seems to be out on whether lesser spren are symptoms/byproducts of natural forces at work, or the carrier particles themselves. Some of Syl’s words about natural laws being agreements between friends suggest that the spren are the forces themselves, but the way rotspren act suggests the opposite to me.
With emotions and human actions, the spren clearly seem to be byproducts of something humans are already feeling or doing. It’s difficult to believe that spren would be the causes/carriers of natural forces and spectators at the same time, but if that is the case, maybe it’s the result of having two different shards in play on the planet.
Re Sprenspotting,
I’m not sure we can take Rock’s assumption for granted. As Syl said: “is the windspren causing the wind or attracted to it“. In this case it could be that these particular spren are only attracted to the Lashing and are no responsible for it.
(edit: Halien @13 made a better and clearer argument about it).
What aggravated me even more than the arrival of Amaram was the immediate following line “End of PART One”.
I was seriously tempted to skip the interludes to learn, how the confrontation between Amaram and Kaladin was going to go. I didn’t skip them … only to learn to have to wait even longer to read about it….
That was not nice.
I wasn’t very impressed with Sigzil’s scientific method, he’s not much of a scholar if he gave up on it so quickly just because he lacked a clock. It doesn’t take much imagination to come up with tests to get around this problem.
Quality – First off try to find out if the quality of the cut affects the amount of Stormlight held. Use about 30 diamond Marks and gather them from multiple sources to minimise the chances that they were all cut in the same batch but make sure to fully infuse them all at the same time.
Take one third of the Spheres and use them to lash ten identical objects to a wall or ceiling the day after infusion. Lash them to the surface at a steady rate (maybe one object every three seconds). Hopefully the Marks will be of varying quality and therefore whether the objects fall off the surface at the same steady rate or not will tell you which are higher quality or not.
Repeat the experiment a few day later with the next third then a few days later still with the last. This way you will get a better idea of how the quality of the cut affects how much stormlight is lost over time.
I suggested Marks instead of Chips for this experiment as the objects will be infused for longer so smaller changes may be more noticable but depending on the results of this experiment Chips will be a simpler measure in future experiments. Should quality turn out to be a noticeable factor this experiment will also allow the gathering of a test group of Spheres of a similar quality.
Simply repeat the experiment in different ways to find other conclusions – use a Chip of each denomination to find out if any work better than others, try different types of objects to test the effects of surface area, does a Broam hold the same amount as twenty Chips? (I think that’s the appropriate currency conversion). Plenty of variations to try out.
On a completely unrelated note does anyone know if holding Stormlight has any effect on aging. Do surgebinders have a longer lifespan?
Amaram should not simply be lumped with Sadeas as exemplars of evil men. Sadeas is motivated by a desire for power and control, and treats underlings as expendable. Amaram, in contrast, shows concern for his people’s welfare – except when it appears to conflict with his ‘sons of Honor’ ideology. He is a believer in a future lead by Radiants and guided by the Vorin church, and is willing to employ drastic means to insure that vision. If Voidbringers are a necessary forerunner, so be it. If he can be equipped with mystic plate and sword to defend against Voidbringers, then sacrificing others to obtain it is acceptable. While the evil that idealogues may do can exceed even that wrought by sociopaths, the influence of motivational differences can’t be overlooked. While someone like Amaram should suffer serious consequences for his evil actions, he remains a redeemable character. Taravangian, on the other hand, has committed so much evil in his quest to fulfill his own ‘prophesized’ destiny, that Roshar is best rid of him.
Chocolate Rob @15
there is nothing simple about science, Sigzil is right.
You couldn’t start the experiments as you stated, first you had to lay out your 30 chips and see if you do nothing to them, they really lose the light at the exact same time, if they were infused at the same time.
And how do you propose to make sure, that they are fully infused: you can only lay them out in the storm – are they really all completely infused by that?
And what if Kaladin walks by and unconsciously draws Stormlight from some of them before you start your experiments?
No, Sigzil is not too quickly giving up, he just rightly assesses the unknown variables and is frustrated by that, because he know he cannot be as accurate as he wishes to be.
@14 I’m not sure we can take Rock’s assumption for granted. As Syl said: is the windspren causing the wind or attracted to it. In this case it could be that these particular spren are only attracted to the Lashing and are no responsible for it.
I think attraction is what’s going on here, and I wonder if Syl’s bit about natural laws is suggesting that an active intelligence underlies the behavior of natural forces. That (shardic?) intelligence would have allowed local exceptions to the way the laws work with the proper use of Stormlight.
We’ve seen that spren are attracted to certain human emotions and actions. If attraction is what’s going on with the Stormlight-fueled alteration of natural forces, that seems consistent. So what common thing about these two activities has the ability to attract spren?
We don’t seem to see gravityspren when gravity is acting according to its expected behavior. IIRC, lifespren come out under certain conditions, but don’t seem to be present all the time. Is there something significant going on in Shadesmar to mark these changes and act as a beacon for the spren?
@17 I’m not suggesting a way to convert stormlight into precise mesurements such as X diamond Marks = Y measures of light = Z number of Lopens stuck to ceiling per second, I’m suggesting methods to work out the appropriate variables for the problems Sigzil himself brought up.
It’s a way to begin experimentation using limited resources.
problem 1: There’s no way they can accurately measure luminosity in Spheres by eye but thay can convert the light into something they can experiment with – variation in time objects remain lashed to walls.
problem 2: Make sure they are infused together but with enough space that they are not bocking each other, it is reasonable to assume that if a Sphere is left in a Highstorm it will always be fully infused but not unreasonable to assume that there are other factors too, just keep repeating the experiment with the same spheres and look for inconsistencies.
problem3: Um don’t let him near…
These are experiments to find the variables, accurate measurements of them can wait till they are identified.
When Kaladin sticks rocks to the wall he infuses the rock and then pushes it to the wall. He never tried infusing a person though. He pained the wall or ground and then stuck people on it. What would happen if he had infused Lopen’s chest and then pressed him against the wall? Would Lopen then be able to feed off the stormlight? Or can Kaladin not infuse people?
Did anyone else notice that Lopen carried on a conversation while he was supposedly counting? Um…
@15 There is no mention I’m aware of that surgebinders live longer but it is commonly portrayed in fantasy and science fiction that those who heal themselves live longer than normal. Whether BWS decides to stick with that trend remains to be seen. I think it might end up having more to do with the personal feelings of the surgebinder. Just as Kaladin “can’t” heal his slave brand, some surgebinders might die at an average age because they feel it is time.
The Lopen does breathe in a bit of Stormlight at the end of WoR, so does that suggest Knighthood? And just what exactly is a Squire when it comes to knights radiant? I have heard the term bandied about, but with no explanation.
13. Halien As for Spren – I would say that they are ideas, concepts and forces come to life, not just forces per se.
17. travyl I have to agree with you about the Science. But no experiment is perfect. It all depends which assumptions you think are reasonable.
16. STBLST Idealogues vs Sociopaths! Excellent distinction. I might even say that the former is a greater danger than the later. I do wonder, if Gavilar was one of the Sons of Honor, making him a bit of a Idealogue as well. I need to reread WoR to see if we have suffcient clues for that.
ZenBossanova @@@@@ 22 – The one time (that I’m aware of) that squires are mentioned in WoR is the chapter 54 epigraph, quoting from the in-book book Words of Radiance that “There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires…”
Presumably, these are people who travel/work with actual Knights Radiant, but aren’t Knights themselves. From my understanding, any talk of their specific abilities relative to normal people and/or full KR is speculative at this point. It’s theorized by some (myself included) that squires have some of the abilities of KR (e.g. inhaling Stormlight, Stormlight-healing, better reflexes, etc.) without actually having full Surgebinding abilities. Or at least without having their own spren bond, Blade and Plate.
If anybody has more specific information and can confirm or correct any of this, that would be greatly appreciated.
Re: attraction vs. causation… Remember that scene in TWoK when Kaladin was near death from having been hung out in the storm? (Ch. 38, if you want to find it.)
That sounds an awful lot like deathspren cause death – at least in the cognitive realm. Or at any rate, Sylphrena seems to believe that she’s doing something for Kaladin by driving the deathspren back; given that she’s in her own realm, I think her belief counts for a lot. And it seems to work. Maybe on Roshar, there is a causative effect. Perhaps they are drawn to the possibility of death, and their presence/touch makes it actually happen. The same could be true of rotspren. The implications for other kind of spren are… worth pondering, at least.
And while we’re on the subject of Syl in the Cognitive realm: there’s the description I wanted back in Chapter 9, where Kaladin thinks, “She seemed . . . different. Had her face changed shape?” Here he describes the difference between her normal “soft, feminine face” and the Shadesmar “nobler, more angular… like a warrior…” So. I think those who speculated that the Chapter 9 scene was reflecting her Cognitive appearance were correct.
Now we just have to figure out why she took on that form in that scene.
Every answer brings more questions, I guess. ‘Tis the lot of a Sanderson fan.
Carl, in your commentary you opined “While it seems pretty hopeless, since many of the variables are TOTALLY uncontrollable (cut of gemstone comes to mind), this process will eventually lead to a reliable system of measurement, even if only thousands of years from now.”
What system of measurement are you referencing? If you mean the scientific method, what makes you think that some Rosharian nations/cultures do not already use the scientific method? The engineers who construct fabrials scientificly inclined. Also, how about the ardents who measured the dimensions of the flame spren in one of the interludes? They seemed to be utilizing the scientific method.
I do not think that the first Ideal (“Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.”) is inconsistent with the philospohy of the ends justify the means. One can argue that Adolin engaged in an “ends justify the means” when he killed Sadeas (and certainly regarding the cover up). Does this automatically means that Adolin cannot become a Knight Radiant at some point in the future? IMO, no.
Following an ends justify the means ideology (as set forth in
Machiavelli’s “The Prince”) is not in of itself evil. Heck, Adolin’s duels throughout WoR were not technically proper duels. Sure, his actions were not against the rules of duelling. On the other hand, they were considered beneath the “proper presentation” of a way a duel should be fought. Yet, Adolin beleived that by fighting in the manner he did, it would allow him to attract future oponents. Are people saying that Adolin’s actions in the duelling arena were an anethema to the first Ideal? I do not.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
One of my favorite visuals was when Kaladin used binding to make a cross of the spears and Rock smacks his head with the spin.
Ahw… Lopin and Wit get all the best one-liners.
@2: Since GotG was not out yet when I first read that part, nope. No Drax the Destroyer came to mind. Now however… maybe. But Rock wears shirts.
@8: yes sarcasm is strong. Makes me wish Leigh could get her wish for a sarcasm font. Reversed italics is current suggestion.
@15: But Kaladin does not have the patience and scientific frame of mind to do those types of experiments. He was bored with Sigzil’s methods almost before the second test was done. He found the ‘practical experimenting’ much more in line with his mentality. Now if Sigzil gets to meet talk with one of the more scholarly KR, he could do some of your methods. But I don’t think even Shallan would enjoy it for long. Maybe Renarin?
Re: Syl and face changes
I re-read chapter 41 last night. She makes herself visible to Sigzil. Who rather freaks out, and makes her face look like his for a few moments. So I guess he proved himself to her, since in this chapter he first laments not being able to see the spren.
Historically, it is very interesting to look at how many nations were on the verge of a scientific revolution, and just for some reason, never quite made the leap.
China could have done it.
Rome was close and already had fabled engineers.
India was set up for it at one point.
Greece had the acedemic mindset for it.
Et Cetera
Regarding Machiavelli, I always thought it very appropriate that he ended his life in jail, unjustly, because some local lord was USING HIS BOOK.
ChocolateRob @15
Sigzil has an impressive understanding of the variables that will influence his experiments. He certainly could have devised a plan, as you suggest, in an attempt to circumvent the influence of the variables, but his full-time job isn’t science, it’s soldiering.
Re: are spren the cause or simply attracted?
Personally, I can believe the minor spren are trading stormlight for implementation of natural forces, etc. Wetlandernw @24 put together a nice summary of the possibility, so I’ll stop here.
Re: Amaram, rotten to the core?
I just finished a book about the Korean war in which several attrocities, reportedly committed by US soldiers against enemy combatants and South Korean “friendlies”, are described in too much detail. I certainly can’t comment on the veracity of book and don’t intend to debate the issue. But…the protagonist–a young marine sergeant–comes to the realization toward the end of the book that war lifts societal restrictions and a combatant’s true character emerges.
That’s a pretty straightforward concept and I think it applies to everyone fighting in the internal Alethi war and the war on the Shattered Plains. Sadeas is just plain evil. He has no restriction on doing anything to feather his cap, right or wrong. OTOH, Amaram seems to have a moral event horizon in place and stepped across the line once (that we know of) to further the end he believes is right and just. Was it wrong? Absolutely! Is Kal justified in hating Amaram and in wanting him to be held accountable for his crimes? Yep! But I don’t want to see this become all-consuming, life-long hatred by Kal. And we already know that it doesn’t.
Re: spren Rock sees. I doubt those are gravityspren since that’s the Adhesion surge he’s using, not gravitation.
@5: And then SNAP? That’s not supposed to mean anything extra, is it?
Re: science. I think it would be useful for Kaladin to get a good average idea for how long the stormlight holds, and using multiple spheres at once should average out many of the variables and yield good estimatable results …
@22 ZenBossanova
The nature of spren as living ideas makes sense and seems compatible with either attraction or causation. My question is what are their properties, since most spren seem to be a diminished form of their Shadesmar selves in the physical realm. Does the possibility of introducing intelligence into natural processes have any explanatory power?
@27 ZenBossanova
I’d suggest reading Destiny Disrupted by Tamim Ansary for a look at some of history’s technological near misses. It’s mostly a history from the Muslim perspective, but the author has some interesting examinations about how surpluses of labor or a lack of need fed into missed opportunities for technological revolutions.
I am glad to see so many people sharing my views on Amaram… No matter how hard I try, I just cannot see him as plain evil. He does try to act honorably to the best of his knowledge and his education (let’s not forget all lighteyes are tought since childhood they are better than the darkeyes).
Was thinking shards should not go to a lowly untrained spearman dishonorable? No. It was the logic line of thought for someone walking in his shoes. Dalinar could even agree with him as he think all shards should go to the king and the kig should decide who is worthy to carry them, instead of having them being hand down based on family ties and alliances.
Did this justify killing Kal’s squad? Absolutely not. These men were not at fault and had done nothing to deserve death.
Did Amaram make a mistake? Oh yes.
But did he feel justified to do it based on his position in society? Probably. That’s were I just cannot put Amaram with the evil dudes. His actions just reflect the world he lives in. In the end, Amaram is no worst than your average lighteye. He may even be better than most.
As for the end justify the means, these are treacherous grounds here…. Amaram thought shards should go to the lighteyes. He was willing to commit murder for it. Is the murder the end or the beginning of the journey towards becoming a better person?
Someone mentioned Adolin… Was the murder of Sadeas the beginning or the ending for him? Was it the short-cut to the end, unlawful and moraly wrong, he took to protect those he loved? Or was it the destination he reached after trying all other options? Is it the end to his potential journey as a Radiant or is it the beginning as he started discovering the man he was as opposed to the man his father wants him to be?
As for the duels… Where they the journey or the end? Didn’t Adolin progress through them? Wasn’t using different strategies to achieve the end goal akin to a journey of sort which ended with a brillant display of courage and bravery? Did he journey through those or did he take the short-cut by being overly agressive? Wasn’t it also at the end of his dueling spree that he finally lost the Thrill? The Thrill he felt so strong in the beginning that vanishes as he progressed through the duels? Was this the destination? Did he had to go throught those, showing what he is made of, before losing the Thrill?
Journey before destination is a strange one. It is hard to apply it to any course of action.
As for Lopen, I have never care much about him. I always felt his purpose was to be the funny onliner. I have trouble seeing him as a character at all.
Good question about Adolin. Was it Destination before Journey?
I can see both sides here, though I am inclined to think, Adolin will be stripped of his shards, exiled, hit some really low points, and then find bond with a spren because he is willing to bring justice and judgement to crooked lighteyes in spite of the costs to himself.
At least I sure hope that is the kind of arc we will see for him.
@carl – I’m pretty sure they are bindspren, at least that is what Syl calls them in The Way of Kings Chapter 57:
I think some people here give Amaram way to much credit.
Let’s not forget how the whole situation with Taln’s blade turned out, he lied to someone he was calling a friend , just to get another shardblade. Just how was that “for the greater good” when it was Dalinar who did not have his own blade, was better at using it , and was an important pillar of stability for the kingdom.
In his POV Sadeas , is shown to be completely amoral but he at least admits to his own corruption . Amaram never does, he has done things as evil as Sadeas but still considers himself to be on the side of the Angels. I find his hypocrisy to be far more jarring than Sadeas straight up lack of morals.
In Taravangian’s interlude we see that the horrors he brought about truly hunt him, “I am a monster” he said to Sheth and from his perspective we see he means it. Amaram’s POV near the end showed him to be an arrogant bigoted idiot who does not truly regret his actions, not the way Travangian does. He does not really think about the harm he did, he is more emotionally invested about no longer being BFF with Dalinar, then about murdering his own men. In my opinion , Amaram’s and Taravagian’s POV’s together show the difference between someone who truly does things believing them to be for the greater good, and someone who only uses it as an excuse.
Plus let’s not forget that when all the other factions did what they could to stop/ prepare for the desolations , Amaram and his people were thinking up a ways to cause them “to return the dominance of the church”. (Really when I read that line the first time the stupid really burned) Amaram is also so narrow minded and entitled, that the idea that Taln might really be darkeyed did not even occur to him.
I really believe that when Hoid referred to Amaram as “what lesser cretins like Sadeas can only aspire to be”, he was very much accurate.
@32: I have had the same idea for a while, but others have convinced me it is unlikely Dalinar will come down this hard on his son. I think it is more likely Dalinar will strike a deal with the Sadeas in order to protect Adolin, probably surrendering all his family’s shards including his sons and letting go of the accusations against Amaram whom I portrayed as the next highprince of Sadeas (does it get renamed Amaram then?).
34. teaman I would not argue with that, in spite of my earlier comments on Amaram, except that I think the Ideologues Amaram AND Taravangian are more dangerous than Sadeas. Taravangian is easily the most dangerous.
35. Maxal
We will see, but regardless, it is going to have harsh consequences for Adolin. I suspect Dalinar will have to come down hard, in order to keep the peace and unite others. If he is shown to not really be following the codes, and giving his son favoritism/nepotism, then he will be less able to do what he must do. Besides, I doubt even Adolin’s shards would genuinely satisfy Sadeas’s widow.
@36
I agree, he’ll have to come down hard. He’ll be harsh, angry and more importantly, he’ll lose all confidence in his son.
However, Dalinar loves his son very much. How far can he go in punishing him without destroying his family? If he breaks his family over this, isn’t he going against his oath to unite instead of dividing? Sending his son into exile without his shards in a world on the verge of a desolation is nothing short of a death sentence. Not to mention it also means he will never see him again: he’ll lose him. Better just to hang him then…. Can he really be willing to go this far to maintain the illusion he observes the codes? He already broke them to be with Navani and he broke them again when he ask Adolin to win shards for him. So the codes do not matter when his love life is at stake, but it does when his son’s head is on the butcher’s block? Not to mention the rest of the family… Would Navani and Renarin really let this happen? And how about the rest of the army? Who will they remain loyal to? I sincerely doubt there will be one soldier who won’t be thrilled Adolin killed Sadeas. It could be they’ll see him as the one honorable lighteye, the one willing to take their side, willing to get his hands dirty…
It is not just Adolin’s shards I was talking about, but all of the family’s shards. I believe it is 7 plates and 5 blades. Dalinar bought the life of a thousand bridgemen with just one blade. I believe he can surely buy his son’s life with that many….
And I am very very keen in seeing Amaram as the new highprince.
Just one for now… “He already broke them (the Codes) to be with Navani . . .” No. He broke Vorin tradition, but the Code does not address this at all.
I think Dalinar is trying to get his people to the point where they are capable of living the codes – spirit of the law vs the letter of the law. But I see what you are saying.
I don’t think it will come to the butcher’s block. Normally, shardbearers are above the law, to a degree.But on the other hand, Ialai isn’t going to be satisfied with a few blades. She will want to really hurt Dalinar and Adolin. I suspect, Dalinar will sit down with Adolin and they will mutually agree what needs to be done, even if it costs Adolin a great deal. And I think Adolin will be of the opinion, he would do it again if given the choice.
Airsicklowlander @21:
There is no mention I’m aware of that surgebinders live longer but it is commonly portrayed in fantasy and science fiction that those who heal themselves live longer than normal.
Personally, I think that it is only logical that people who can heal themselves should live longer. After all, there is no real difference between healing disease/trauma and ravages of old age.
And, actually, too often it is the opposite in the genre fiction – everything short of (and often including) death by violence or sickness can be healed, but somehow people with healing powers are still as susceptible to aging as everybody else, because “we can’t have magic solving real problems of human existence” or something along these lines. Ahem.
@many re: Amaram, personally, he seems less evil than Szeth or Taravangian to me so far. Leave alone Sadeas.
I know that Szeth often gets a pass because he was “following the law”, but since he was actually following it for an entirely selfish reason – to preserve his soul from oblivion and despite his qualms, was ready commot any atrocity to that end… Yea. Doesn’t count as a valid defense in my book.
At least Amaram has some high-minded goals that may not be selfish and he hasn’t yet commited as much evil in service of them as Taravangian did. So, yea, IMHO there is hope for him yet. He does have certain amount of conscience, too. IMHO, it would be interesting if he turned out to be something more than just another hypocritical evil noble. And Kaladin had to deal with it.
As long as we’re speculating as to how Sanderson intends to continue his story about the consequences of the killing of Sadeas, let me add mine. I believe that Dalinar is prepared to take severe action against his son and heir in order to be seen as loyal to the Codes and the just leader of the Radiants. However, I believe that Elhokar will finally come into his own and counter his uncle by issuing a pardon. He may also pardon Amaram considering both to be important for the survival of his people. While Adolin’s contribution has been described in the current installments, Amaram is both a capable leader and scholar who was a close friend of Elhokar’s father (another reason for a pardon). His survival and continued leadership role will also serve as a test of Kaladin’s mettle. Will he continue his hatred of the man, or will he recognize that Amaram’s betrayal was motivated by idealistic, if not also gravely mistaken reasons. We have already been given an indication late in the WOR book that Kaladin has started to reconsider his attitude toward Amaram.
@Isilel 40: I disagree with your assessment of Szeth. I do agree the excuse he was merely following the law in order to save his soul from eternal damnation sounds lame, however we do not know much about the Shin culture. I have, on another forum, made the hypothesis the Shin are very religious people and that Szeth could be associated with a religious fanatic. I do think he may be brainwashed by his people’s beliefs and going against years of mental oppression is very hard.
ggg
Szeth is stuck in a impossible situation: he can’t disobey, but he can’t agree with obeying as it forces him to go against his nature (I do not believe Szeth is a killer at heart). His situation is much different than Amaram or Taravangian. Amaram consciously and willingly takes actions who are horrific in order to reach a higher goal. Taravangian willingly choses to sacrify the many to save the few based on a day he was supposetly super smart. Szeth kills because he thinks he is forced to do it. Quite different, I believe.
ggg
@41: I believe most of Dalinar dilemna will come from the fact he’ll see his worst nightmare come true: his son is walking into his own footsteps and after spending years trying to steer him away from this path, the pill will be a hard one to swallow. The sad thing is, I do not think Adolin has it in him to be another Blackthorn: he never relinquished in war and was always more interested in the art of fighting as opposed to the killing itself, much unlike young Dalinar. I agree Dalinar will react harsly, but to the point of sending his son away on banishment? Forever? If he does this, he’ll lose both Navani and Renarin as well. Elhokar? Maybe he’ll interfere, but I wonder if he won’t over-react as well and be the one to enforce an overly harsh punishment… Do we know the relationship between the cousins? Besides, I do not think Adolin needs to go on exile to be painted into a corner… In fact, seeing his father’s disaprovement and knowing he lost the trust of his life long hero may very well be the last straw for him. No need to go further. He’s got enough on his plate without exile to completely breakdown anyway (I have him pinned for a mental breakdown or a burnout).
I find it interesting that so many people assume Adolin will be caught out, or ‘fess up, right away. I won’t say it’s improbable, but Brandon went out of his way to have Adolin carefully remove all traces that he’d been there. We know that some of Sadeas’s people were in the vicinity, but wouldn’t they have come to his aid or at least raised an outcry if they’d seen it? (It’s possible, of course, that someone saw him from a distance before discovering the body, but… I still think he still would have heard some noise in that case.)
I do think it will be dealt with somewhere along the line, if only as a matter of Adolin’s conscience – but I also won’t be at all surprised if his only reason for confessing is to protect some innocent person from blame. Or if he only confesses it to someone who has no interest in prosecuting it, and the Alethi never find out. Dunno, but I’m bemused by the assumption that he’ll be nabbed forthwith and Dalinar will have to do something to/about him. This is Sanderson. I’m learning not to make too many assumptions.
@34: I like your break down of the ‘evil’ men we have see so far. And yes, while I’m not sure Amaram’s is the worst, it does bug me more on a personal note. Like those people who cannot admit to being wrong. Even after the evidence is presented to them. Rather than say, “You were right.” they just change the subject.
I’m with Alice. While I think Sadeas’s wife will spend most of book 3 looking for her husband’s killer. I think Adolin will stay quite. Because he is aware of how much trouble it would create for his father’s cause and the war efforts.
I am now wondering if he will go into a type of self exile until he accepts his actions in some mental way.
As Brandon has said, some sprens would not have an issue with his actions. Just not an honor spren like Syl.
@35: Why would Amaram become the next Highprince of Sadeas’s kingdom? We have not heard much of succession laws regarding the kingdom’s, but what we have heard leads me to believe it would be a relative of Sadeas’s. There is no blood tie between the two, right?
Isn’t there Word of Brandon that there will be consequences to Adolin’s actions?
It seems like he said something, and I don’t remember the particulars. I might look that up if I can find the time.
Hey guys, long time lurker, occasional poster.
So, I’m at SLC comic con, might have a chance to ask Brandon some questions. Any ideas?
@Wetlandernw 43:
Adolin did not cover his tracks nearly well enough: he left his knife into the body. If you go and reread the passage, you will see how he proceeds: he throws Oathbringer by the window, he erases his mark on the wall with his blade, he cuts his cuffs, but he leaves the knife there. His knife. No doubt the hand knife of a lighteye of his rank would adorned in some kind, especially Adolin-who-likes-fashion’s knife. There is also the matter of the mark he erase on the wall. An investigation would notice the shardblade mark on the wall and would probably guess it was done to hide the scouting party marks…
He’ll be uncover or he’ll just confess. Seriously, Adolin is one of the most straight-forward character: keeping secret is just not his type. Not to mention I doubt he’ll be able to maintain the facade for too long. His whole family have turned Radiants, they are locked in a Radiant city, physically he is still injured and I doubt he has rested nearly enough: he’ll crack. At some point, he’ll just lose it and someone will ask what is the matter. He’ll confess. I am quite sure of this. He won’t be able to live with a guilty conscience.
@44: Yeah I have had the same theory for a while: Adolin putting himself into exile and leaving, heartbroken, thinking it is best for everyone, worst led to think by all those sprens it is the honorable thing to do. However, there is the matter of how the heck will he manage to run away from a city enclaved in mountains? Surely Shallan won’t help him doing just that and even if she did, what the heck will he do, alone, in the middle of Shattered Plains? He won’t be able to cross the chasm… so what will he do? Pace endlessly on a Plateau he cannot leave? I have thought he may be foolish enough to attempt crossing the mountains, but that would end badly, probably with Dalinar coming to the rescue. So he is pretty stuck in Urithiru.
As for Amaram, it is a wild guess. As far as we know, Sadeas has not children. We have never heard of any relative of him. It is quite possible he does not have any. In these cases, I think the princedom must go to another high ranked lighteye. Amaram would then be a logical choice. There is also the story of Yenev who was killed in a duel by Sadeas which opened a place for Aladar… Different family name, so it must mean they were not related…
@45: Yeah, there is a WoB. It says there will defintely be ramifications for him, meaning it he won’t escape without consequences. There is also another WoB stating some people will think what he did was totally, totally, totally wrong, meaning other people will find out and some will strongly disagree. My money was on Dalinar being one of those persons…
@45 – Here is the Q&A from the Philadelphia signing:
Q: What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway. And what happened at the end of this book, between Adolin and the other character. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?
A: I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.
Q: Will it have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?
A: Oh, there are definitely ramifications. How it’s handled, there’s lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.
46. Pre5to Questions? Awesome! Here is a simple one. Does the timing of the High Storms have to do with positions of the moons, tides, and general weather, or is it independent of that? I ask, because I have been thinking about making a StormWarden manuel.
47. Maxal
I agree with a lot of that, except that if he does go into exile, then he will go regardless of how easy it is. Possible, the other Oathgates may start opening. But Adolin is resourceful, and he does have his Investiture-enhanced horse. Adolin is very open but is is also going to be willing to do “something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.” That is exactly how I see him, at his best.
Is there an order where KR do things to right wrongs, even if it costs them? If there is, that is where I see Adolin.
48. nakafre thanks! That is exactly the one I was thinking of! You are the man! (the woman?! the malen? the femalen? the spren? ) Regardless, awesome and thanks.
Zen@45:
I asked Brandon at JCon if there would be consequences for Adolin because of his murder of Sadeas, and he gave me a RAFO card. That’s usually some kind of “bingo”. Whether it’s sooner or later, I know not, but my guess is it will be a part of his growth and arc…and perhaps Dalinars as well.
@46 – If you are still open to questions could you ask whether the magic fish of the Purelake operate under similar principles as the Aviar from Sixth of the Dusk?
Have yet to ask anything. Hopefully at his sighing later, though I don’t have anything for him to sign. *shrugs, didn’t know I was coming* I like the high storm one, so I’ll let you know what he says. I’ve never heard of sixth of the dust, and I’d feel weird along bout something I don’t know, otherwise…
When I was at the Phoenix comicon a year ago, there was a fire evacuation, and I was standing next to Brandon for several minutes, and I could not think of anything to ask him at all, except the pronounceation of Sadeas’s name, because my daughter and I had been arguing over it. I still kick myself for not thinking of anything better to say.
50. Tektonica Thanks! Good point.
51. WeiryWriter Good question!
@Zen 49:
Adolin can’t open an Oathgate on its own. If he goes on exile, then he will need help. He can’t cross the mountains either on his own, if he tries, he’ll die or he’ll need to rescued.
He is ressourcefull, but what can he really do? As for his horse, well he is dead. Poor Sureblood :-(
My guest is the order that “does what is right even if it is wrong or costly to oneself” are the Dustbringers. It just happen Adolin’s shardplate is from this order, as for his blade, we just cannot tell.
@50 Dealing with Adolin will make Dalinar grow. He’ll need to understand the codes are not something fix to be apply with extreme rigor and he’ll also need to realize his son is an individual, not an extention of himself. Adolin is not Dalinar’s second chance at doing what is right from the start: he is a young man with his own personality and aspirations. Dalinar will have to accept that, eventually.
And Adolin needs to be his own man instead of the man his father wants him to be. He is not Dalinar nor is he the Blackthorn. He’ll need to realise that and figure out what kind of person he really wants to be.
Moreover, father and son need to grow apart for a while. Adolin is to set up in this hero worshiping relationship he has with his father to see any wrong in him and Dalinar is too keen in turning Adolin into the man he wish he had been. I foresee great hardship for these two, but hopefully, they work it out.
Pre5to @46 – Ask him if it’s possible, with the information we already have, for us to know what the various spren look for in a human for a possible Radiant bonding. :) Have a blast!!
Maxal @47 – If Adolin left his knife in the body, what did he use to cut off his blood-stained cuffs? His Shardblade? Seems a bit awkward, to say nothing of the risk of cutting off his own hand.
nakafre @48 – Thank you for the actual quotation. I hate it when people say “there’s WoB on that” and then proceed to give only their interpretation of what they remember of what was actually said. It’s unreliable and rarely worth the effort to discuss. This, on the other hand…
There are “ramifications.” That doesn’t tell us whether or not he’s outed (by himself or someone else) or whether it is more a matter of his own internal conflict. Whether or not it affects his potential Radiancy. Whether those who would think it was “totally, totally, totally wrong” ever find out. Lots left unsaid, there.
The problem with exile, is that you have plenty of help getting out the door and plenty of incentive. He may get a one way trip through an oathgate and have to traverse the Shattered Plains as best he can. Or handle the mountains as best he can. Going down is a lot easier than up. In either case, the horse has a good chance of making it, IMHO, at least once you are down the sheer cliff face.
@36 and others Did Dalinar break the codes or did he break with tradition. I am sure I read somewhere in WOR that traditionaly in vorin religion it was not allowed. Some religions in the RW actually suggest that a brother in law should look after his dead brothers wife. (don’t remember which,)
@35,36 and others on Adolins murder, I think Dalinar would want to go easy on Adolin, but this might be where Elkohar starts to stand up to Dalinar and become his own man. The King may think the leader of the KR shouldnt have two jobs, also won’t the King need to go to his kingdom to try and save the people and hellp them?
I think Adolin has started questioning his own beliefs, he was thrown in a loop about Shallon being a KR, and now the murder. Quite likely he will spend alot of time in the next book rethinking his own morals.
@55 Wedlandernw
Yeah we did wonder about that… However, if you read the passage, he plunged the knife into Sadeas’s head and he quickly backup without picking it up. Cutting through a brain must be pretty messy… removing the knife would have made more blood spill. Besides, he did not have anything to wipe the knife with, which means it was bloody. Even if he did remove it, he could not have use it to remove his cuff: it would have stained the rest of his clothes and his hands.
I agree shardblade is not the ideal tool to remove your cuff, but I think this is exactly what he did. If you read back the passage, the weapon he picked seem to refer more to Oathbringer than the knife.
The WoB tells us there will be ramifications and that people will disagree. I tend to believe that for “people to think what he did was totally, totally, totally wrong” you need to have people finding out. If not, than how can they even place a judgement on Adolin’s actions?
@Zen 56
The question remains, who would open uo the Oathgate for him? Shallan? She’d let him runaway, just like that? He can’t traverse the Plains, not without a bridge, unless he goes down the chasm, but he won’t be able to do this unless he has a rope and there is still the matter of the highstorm. No Adolin cannot traverse the Plains, alone without help.
Handle the mountains? How? They’re said to very high without any visible pass. Adolin has no experience with high altitude trecking (we can safely assume) and I doubt the Kohlin’s army winter uniform is nearly warm enough for the cold he’ll encounter out there. Not to mention the crevasses, the sleepery ice, the avalanches… He’ll freeze before he ever made it to the top and if he does not freeze, he’ll get lost and wander in circle until he does freeze. If he tries crossing the mountains, Dalinar will need to send a rescue team to bring him back.
He does not have a horse anymore… He lost it.
Maxal @58 – You’ve got to be kidding me. Use a six-foot-long Blade (that can kill your hand if you slip) to cut off your cuffs, when a perfectly good knife is right there? Why on the winds would he do that? Because he’s got “nothing to clean the knife with”??? It’s traditional to clean the blade on the clothing of your opponent, and Sadeas had plenty of that. I’m sorry, but I simply cannot buy either one of those arguments, despite the fact that it’s not spelled out. A far more appropriate argument for the “giveaway” would be the cuffs themselves, since we know he cut them off but not what he did with them. Leaving them behind would be bad, but so would sticking them in his pocket.
Re: what people think – if you read the actual quotation, it says, “And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.” If he’d said “will” instead of “would” you’d have a case. It’s a critical difference in meaning.
@59: Oddly enough the text mentions every single action he took right after the murder, but nothing of the knife. He plunged it in, he saw Oathbringer and he move away or stumbled away if I may use the exact term. There is absolutely no mention of him removing the knife or going back for it. Besides, once he stumbed away, there is bond to be blood everywhere: going back for the knife would most likely have stained him more.
As for removing his cuff with the shardblade, yeah it is odd. We don’t know. Perhaps he had a second knife on him or perhaps he used his side sword. The text is not clear on that one, but the textual sequence does lead to believe he may have left the knife right there.
I forgot to mention the cuffs. There is another clue of how poor of a job he did hiding his tracks. Bloody cuffs, what did he do with them? Not to mention his now destroyed uniform… How the heck will he explain this one?
Would, will, are we really playing on wording? Is Brandon really weighting every single word that come out of his mind to avoid people from drawing any conclusion? You are also disregarding the part on the ramifications. I sincerely doubt ramifications will limit themselves to Adolin feeling guilty and keeping a dirty secret. I would not this “ramifications” as the term implies consequences. Since you are so prone on playing with wording, google is quite explicit when it comes to the term “ramification”.
a consequence of an action or event, especially when complex or unwelcome.
Adolin merely feeling guilty is not what I call a complex or unwelcome consequence. Complex implies ramifications that would involve the whole family, as it would certainly undermine Dalinar: quite the opposite of what Adolin was trying to do now wouldn’t you think? He wanted to protect Dalinar not hinder him.
Besides, the probably of nobody ever finding out about the murder are very slim at best. For one, the clues on the crime scene may point towards the scouting party which may incriminate Adolin, even if indirectly. Not to mention Ialai will be out for vengeance and who will she gun for? Adolin, of course. The Sadeas were already gunning for him before this event: they couln’t get to Dalinar, so they decided to get to the son instead.
There is also the matter of Adolin himself. By thinking he may keep it to himself you are completely disregard the kind of person he is, for which we have had quite a few insights.
Maxal @60 – You’re making too many assumptions. You assume the text mentions every single action he takes. You assume there would be lots of blood everywhere. You assume Adolin’s uniform is a complete shambles. You assume that I haven’t read the text carefully. You assume that I’m unaware of the dictionary definition of “ramifications.”
#1 – The text does not mention every action: at no time did he produce any tool wherewith to cut off his cuffs. You should also note his thought, which really argues against using his Blade:
#2 – There’s no indication of blood everywhere, only this:
There’s no hint that any blood was shed earlier in the fight – it was mostly choking and wrestling. The only mention of blood, which I just quoted, doesn’t read like “blood everywhere” – just right there on his face/around the eye socket. Enough to get on Adolin’s cuffs, but hardly “everywhere.”
#3 – There’s no indication that his uniform was “destroyed.” If his whole uniform was a bloody mess, why would he specifically notice that his cuffs were stained and cut them off? If his uniform was “now destroyed” how would he think that he could go back and pretend he’d been in the other area all along? According to the text,
Once his thoughts were “coming more clearly” it should not have been difficult to carefully step back to the body, remove the knife, wipe it clean on Sadeas’s clothing, and use it to cut off his cuffs, all without getting any further blood on himself. See #1.
#4 – I read this section at least twice in the beta, at least once in the gamma, again for the spoiler review, and various times to refresh my thinking on critical events. When we begin to discuss a particular scene, I always go back and read it to make sure I’m not overreaching the text.
#5 – Yes, I own a dictionary, and know how to use it. I’m quite well aware of the definition of “ramifications” – I just try to avoid making it mean more than it does. It might mean that a spren chooses him, or doesn’t choose him, based on this. It might mean he’s tried and executed because someone saw him or he left damning evidence. It might mean he throws himself off the top of Urithiru because he can’t live with either telling the truth or hiding it any longer. It might mean any number of things, all of which fit the definition of “ramifications.”
“Would, will, are we really playing on wording? Is Brandon really weighting every single word that come out of his mind to avoid people from drawing any conclusion?”
Yes. Absolutely. I have watched him carefully select his words on occasion, for this exact type of reason. Whether he did it in this case or not, I have seen him do it; I’ve learned not to reinterpret his words for him. That way lie many false assumptions.
Wetlandernw. It is very obvious that what the ramifications of Adolin’s murder of Sadeas will be: Adolin will be forced to listen to an Ardent read the following:
a Rosharian novel where the whole book is a series of conversations between characters bathing and complaining that the oposite sex is unable to solve any problems.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Sorry guys, line was too long, didn’t make it to the front before he was done signing.
@61:
Yes I do assume that plunging a knife through someone’s brain and twisting it would make blood spill. To assume the scene was bloodless is false. There was blood. It is impossible to stick a knife into a brain without having any blood at all. These are just matter of life. Besides, head is the one part of the body that bleeds the most.
I do not assume you do not know the definition, but you are the one so keen on wording, you are the one who ranted on people mentioning a WoB without producing it and ignoring the fact we may not be able to do so at the time of the writing. Or that finding a specific WoB we remember reading may not be easy and that just mentioning it here may get someone who had it readily produce it.
Since you seem to attach a high importance on the meaning of each and every single word, I though it be interesting to bring forward the definition of “ramifications” since you deliberatly ignored its meaning in claiming Adolin will suffer no consequence apart from internal guilt for his actions. I would not have brough it forward had you not insisted so much on words, had you not simply declared iwout is likely nobody would ever find out because Brandon used word “would” instead of “will”. Would or will, I interpret the WoB very differently than you.
Blood pooling does imply blood. Sorry.
I believe cutting the cuff away from a uniform qualifies as “destroyed”. I never mentioned it was in shamble, I mentioned it was destroyed mostly because he cut it of. Someone is bond to notice that, especially on Adolin who is so keen on appearances. He will never be able to wear this specific uniform either, so yeah, having to throw it away in the garbage does, again, qualify as destroyed.
Yes he could have gone back, but there is not mention of it in the text, therefore we cannot assume he did. You are the one always claiming we cannot assume anything unless it is spell out in big shinny bright letters and yet you assume he has remove it. The fact is there is no textual evidence he did and there is a strong possibility he didn’t.
You assume I did not read the passage. I must have read this passage a thousand times, worst I have spent pages and pages of discussion on the specific subject of the knife with other people. Just writing this conversation, I read it at least 5 times. Do not assume you are the only who is able to pick up his book and check his references. I happen to have a very diffrent interpretation of this scene than you.
If I interpret you correctly, I should not be making any assumption on any given subject unless I get false proof evidence to support my claim? And if my evidence proves to not be false proof enough, than I should just refrain myself from speculating? I was under the impression thoughts, ideas, interpretations and speculation were welcome even if we don’t have a WoB confirming it with its specific wording. I guess I was mistaken, so I am sorry I made you lost your time here.
Since the text doesn’t spell out every action Adolin took, the idea of him using the murder weapon, shardblade or another knife to cut his cuffs are all speculation.
But I thought we were discussing chapter 12 where all the bridgemen practice with spearheadless spears and Amaram is the only one with a shardblade.
I apologize to everyone for allowing my dislike of unfounded assumptions to sidetrack the thread.
Pre5to @63 – Bummer. I’m sorry to hear you missed him! Hope you have better luck next time around…
Wetlandernw — FWIIW, IMO you do not need to apologize for anything.
As to sidetracking, can a discussion of a scene in WoR (irrespective of where it occurs in the book) be a “sidetrack?” I do not think so. As I understand it, the author of the post (for the week of September 4, Carl) will start the discussion with whatever he/she thinks is relevant. However, the course of the discussions will be ultimately guided by subsequent comments. That is what happened here. Carl’s commentary talked about Amaram. Amaram is believed by most characters (Kaladin, notwithstanding) to be a hero at the start of this book. Yet by the end, Amaram is not so much of a hero in the eyes of others. Posters then began to discuss how evil (or not) Amaram is. Some began comparing actions of others characters and whether those were evil or not. This lead into a discussion of Adolin’s actions vis-a-vis Sadeas. I might add that the discussion of Adolin’s actions at the end of the book started within a few hours after Carl’s initial post.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
I continue to believe that Adolin’s role in Sadeas’ killing will become known through reasonable accusations and Adolin’s subsequent admission to his father. I see Ialai confronting the king with accusations that Dalinar killed her husband and his rival, or instigated the killing. She can also point to prior bitter confrontations between Sadeas and Adolin, with this final confrontation ending in the slaying. If so, will Adolin be exiled or pardoned? If the former, we can expect Adolin point of view chapters. It will also conveniently clear the way for a budding Kaladin-Shallan romance. That romantic involvement, or at least a deep admiration and personal interest, is already alluded to at various points in WOR subsequent to their escape from the chasms. It may blossom even if Adolin is not exiled. However, this is Sanderson’s story and there is little point in getting too deeply involved with personal speculations that may never become part of the author’s plot.
I agree with Wetlander,
even taking Maxal’s dictionary it says “complex or unwelcome” not and. Could as well be that the complex consequence is, that this was the action, by which Adolin attracts a spren (or might revive the one within his sword, which would be very complex, I assume).
I for one, am willing to wait, what Brandon will decide.
After a very interesting conversation this afternoon, I have to return to Bellaberry’s comment @20…
In Szeth’s fights with various people, he frequently touched a person and Lashed them in a particular direction… but he never did it to Kaladin. Kaladin himself, beginning here and then in the other places we see him practice, only “paints” a surface with Stormlight and then sticks someone or something to it; until almost the end of the book he never Lashes a person in a non-normal direction. And he never uses the Lashings as a weapon even when fighting Szeth; he Lashes himself around, but he only uses it for his own mobility.
I don’t know if it’s just an artifact of Kaladin’s feel-your-way-forward learning process, or if Brandon deliberately avoided that situation for now, but the fact remains: so far, we’ve not seen anyone who can consciously draw Stormlight on the receiving end of a Lashing. The closest we come is near the end of the book, when Szeth Lashes Dalinar toward the sky and Kaladin catches him and replaces Szeth’s skyward Lashing with a partial Lashing so that Dalinar drifts down at a safe speed. At that point, though, Dalinar wasn’t consciously using Stormlight, though it’s at least implied that he’s been using it subconsciously for quite some time.
So… what would happen if a Windrunner (real or faux) tried to Lash a person who could deliberately use Stormlight? Now that Szeth has lost his Windrunner-y skillz, Kaladin is the only one we know who can do this – so what would happen if Kaladin tried to Lash Lopen sideways, or upward? Would Lopen be able to draw the Stormlight in and use it his own way? Or better yet, Shallan – someone who has strong Surgebinding skill of her own? What do you think would happen?
Wetlander @@@@@ 71 – Isn’t it supposed to be harder to magically affect someone/thing that is heavily Invested? That would make it significantly harder to actually perform a Lashing at all if the recipient/target had a lot of Stormlight at the time, wouldn’t it? Or am I completely misremembering things?
I have heard that about invested objects. But I am not sure how that applied to invested people.
I don’t know about the possible difficulty in lashing an already invested person, but I don’t believe that such an attempted lashing would work. We have already seen Kaladin absorbing the remaining stormlight from objects that he had ‘painted’ (the training session in the chasm – chap. 12, I believe) . I assume that he could do the same if another Windrunner had ‘painted’ him in preparation for a lashing.
I guess I wasn’t thinking so much about someone who is actually holding Stormlight, as someone who is able to (and knows it). Come to think of it, the only time it’s likely to be applicable is in practice sessions or if you’re fighting someone you don’t (yet) know is a Surgebinder. (I can’t think that ignorance would last very long…)
Or… what happens when (if) Surgebinders fight on opposite sides? Will they have a way of stealing each other’s Investiture? Oy.
Here’s related questions / thought exercises
Say Kaladin encountered Shallan in her disguise as Vail:
1) If he Lashed her nose – would it stick to anything? Vail’s nose is larger than Shallan’s, so he would have to shove her head into a Lashing in order to engage her real nose. But if he just tried to Lash the tip of the false nose to something, would it stick?
2) Could he drain all her Stormlight? He could drain the stomlight in her spears that fuel the illusion. But has it been established weather a person can steal another’s internal stormlight?
Because I admit, that seems like a great opportunity for a comedic reveal. Or a really bad thing, depending on what else is going on at the time.
3) Breaths can be given up voluntarily. So could one surgebinder willing send their internal stormlight into another person? To boost power or healing?
@76 Braid_Tug- In Dalinar’s vision, the KR healed people attacked by the Midnight Essence. Plus, we know that some of the orders were healers (some were scholars, some were healers, and some were warriors), so it would make sense that passing on their stormlight into healing another person uses transferring investiture in some way.
@several- regarding investiture and trying to invest something already affected by stormlight, I think it should be possible. I keep thinking of Mistborn, and how pushes by one allomancer can be counteracted by pushes from another allomancer. And when Szeth sent Dalinar to die, he sent him up with stormlight. I’m not so sure that Szeth’s stormlight had run out before Kaladin found Dalinar, he could have just put more stormlight into sending Dalinar down. I think 2 equal lashings in opposite directions, from 2 different radiants, would both work, they would just cancel each other out. And if Kaladin and Szeth had both lashed the same person in the same direction, he would be lashed twice as hard.
I tend to think that you can’t steal someone else’s investiture if they’re holding it, but I can’t say for certain. Your best bet is to just steal their gemstones/unused stormlight.
@75 Wetlandernw, I rather doubt that investiture can be taken forcibly or surreptitiously by others. If it could then your proposed contest between Surgebinders would lead to a strange stand-off with one ‘stealing’ the stormlight from the other, and the other taking back the light from his opponent, etc. I also note that Kaladin in his first contest with Szeth absorbed stormlight from the latter’s gemstones – not from Szeth, himself.
I recall the episode with Lift. In order to forcably take her Investiture, hey had to use a particular bug to suck it from her. She only survived because she had the unique ability to synthesize more from food. So, appearently it can be done in certain circumstances, but not in all circumstances.
So… wow. Thursday’s post will definitely not be under 1200 words. Might bring it in under 2000 if I work hard at merciless trimming.
@80 – So did you decide to move on to the first interlude then?
I agree that surgebinders will probably not be able to steal stormlight within one another; though I do think the Lopen will never have to be stuck to a rock wall again. If he so chooses. :)
@80: Well, at least you’ve given yourself some time to work on it.
Looking forward to seeing the post.
Agreed, surgebinders can not steal it from eachother.
But can they steal from eachothers bindings?
If Kaladin binds an object, can Szeth steal/retrieve the stormlight from that binding?
@83: I don’t see why not. It’s just stormlight. It’s been used, so there would be a loss of energy in the transfer. But it’s not like there is a ‘lock’ put on the bindings that key them to one person.
So if Kaladin were to lash Szeth to a wall or the floor, it would slow Szeth down for the amount of time it took him to suck up the binding. Therefor not long. But the way the fights are written, a few seconds could make a major difference.
So if Kaladin lashed a rock to the wall, Szeth could suck up the light and make the rock fall.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 80
Hey, there’s absolutely no need to be brief!
The more to read from your analysis the better!!
If we have a taste for Sanderson’s writing, it is a given that length does not intimidate us. Sock it to us, Wetlander!
I’ll take a long post tomorrow too, Wet. Don’t hold back!
@86: Like!! And true.
My youngest niece saw me get WOK hardback as a Christmas gift last year. Her eyes got wide. She held up her ‘large’ book, (300 pages – good for a 10 yo).
Compared them and then said:
“Wow Aunt Deana. You like BIG books!” :-)
She’s right on track to be there with me. Just gave her Eddings to read last weekend.
@@@@@ 85-88 I like big books and I cannot lie. Sorry-not-sorry.
More seriously: While writing longer doesn’t necessarily mean better quality, it also doesn’t necessarily mean lower quality either. Knowing the quality of what’s come before, I will be happy reading whatever you put out, regardless of how long it is, and I will add my voice to the chorus saying that you should take as much time/space/words to say what you want to say as you need to.
89. jeremyguebert
Exactly. A quality long book, simply means you get more bang for your buck – Brandon is practically the 4-star all-you-can-eat buffet of fantasy.
That said, I am really tired of waiting for Stormlight 3: Szeth gets his groove back. Brandon’s assistent Peter just recommended two books I may have to read to tide me over;
City of Stairs – Robert Bennett
Broken Eye – Brent Weeks
(that and I still need to finish the Wheel of Time. I am about 70% done there)
@90: Dude!
You just got WoR in March of this year. So I hope you were joking.
Brandon is not working on Book 3 hard core until January of 2015 (according to a statement he said on the Goodreads questions.)
He’s fast, but his back stock of work has gotten much thinner than it once was.
No, I am not joking… but I am acutely aware of how ridiculous I am being. And how unrealistic my expectations are.
Zen @92 – I want a like button for that. :D Also for this @86:
Too true, that! Heh.
Thank you all for the encouragement. On the good side of keeping the wordcount down, it forces me to trim and tighten my writing – which is healthy exercise for me. So how’s this:
::hand on heart:: I promise not to cut out anything I really want to say, but I’ll try to say it as cleanly as possible.
Balance? Worth a try! Brevity and I will never be besties, though.
And yes, we’re heading into the Interludes first, so if you’re taking the read-to-be-ready approach, hit the first Interlude by Thursday morning.
@71 Wetlander, regarding sucking in the Stormlight from someone else’s Lashings, I am 90% sure it wouldn’t work. You can’t access someone else’s metalminds (without massive identity trickery only available so far to Feruchemists), which speaks to a Cosmere-wide principle that when one uses any Investiture, it is ‘locked’ to them and only they have the key.
Greetings all!
I am so excited for this reread, and have been spending the last month reading The Way of Kings reread, 17th Shard, Coppermind and catching up here. I can only respond with Wow! My mind is blown with the Cosmere information and how this demonstrates the genius that is Brandon Sanderson. I endeavour to stop lurking and participate starting with Chapter 13.
Glad to have you, Q-tip!
Tell us your ideas and thoughts.
Well, I hope it’s not too incoherent…