Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Alice mourned the loss of Bluth and celebrated the impoverishment of Tvlakv. This week, we watch a number of threads plot along, then are surprised by an assassin!
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 22: Lights in the Storm
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: Elhokar’s Palace, Dalinar’s Warcamp
Symbology: Spears, Nalan, Chach
IN WHICH a storm rages outside the safety of the palace; Kaladin glimpses red eyes; a loose shutter annoys a king; A king annoys everyone else; Adolin yearns for fashion; Renarin explains heating fabrials to Kaladin; Kaladin’s necessity is challenged, upheld; Dalinar emerges from seclusion, saying that there have been no new visions; strategy for duels is discussed, to combat flagging progress; Amaram’s name enters the fray, leaving Kaladin unsettled; Moash and Bisting are dismissed, but Kaladin stays behind to speak with Dalinar; Amaram’s crimes are brought to light, but Dalinar requires more evidence; Kaladin, frustrated, considers seeking his own justice; back among Bridge Four, stew is served; a new Herdazian; Shen lays out the truth: without a spear, he’s Bridge Four’s slave; an assassin strikes.
Quote of the Week:
Kaladin knocked his head back against the stone behind him, staring up at the sky. Storming man. He had a good life, for a parshman. Certainly more freedom than any other of his kind.
And were you satisfied with that? a voice inside him asked. Were you happy to be a well-treated slave? Or did you try to run, fight your way to freedom?
YEAH KALADIN, LISTEN TO KALADIN. HAVING A SLAVE ISN’T COOL. STOP IT. GET TO THE PART WHERE YOU STOP IT.
Commentary: This is the bridgiest bridge chapter that ever bridged in Bridgetown. Every single plot involved is partway done, and none of them get more done by the end. Kaladin talks about catching the numbers phantom, but makes no progress. The dueling is discussed, but the duels have been making no progress. Elhokar’s paranoia is brought up again, but we get no closer to the cause or effects. Dalinar’s visions are stalled out. The red spren are still hanging around doing basically nothing. Dalinar’s still pissed about Amaram, but his emotional state regarding that barely changes. The big exception is that we enter the period in which Dalinar is actively considering Amaram’s virtue.
Kaladin reads Dalinar’s response as a flat rejection, because Kaladin is the most impatient, but that’s not at all what’s happening. Dalinar’s thought processes have always functioned as slow accumulations that eventually topple over and become avalanches of action. He just now heard that there’s anything bad Amaram might ever have done, and Kaladin is disappointed that he’s not already calling for a court-martial and execution.
Okay, at this point I realize that 5% of my salary is devoted to giving Kaladin Stormblessed a hard time. I do understand where he’s coming from. The wounds Amaram gave him never closed. We saw him refuse to tattoo over his unfreedom, saw him keep that scar declaring his grievances. We know he’s never let anyone else share this dreadful past. Dalinar is the first person he trusted with his history, and it seems exactly like he’s being put aside.
Dalinar and Kaladin share a weird mental limitation. They both tend towards moral essentialism, judging people to be all one thing or all another, vicious or virtuous, completely trustworthy or totally shiftless. Dalinar sees Amaram, and knows all the good things he’s done. He can’t treat him cautiously until he clicks all the way over into accepting Kaladin’s story. We’ll see a similar battle play out in Kaladin’s mind about Moash. He wants to give of himself completely or not at all.
Also compounding bad reactions, Kaladin has already been wound tight by spending hours in a locked room with Adolin, Renarin, and Elhokar, three Lighteyes men who he currently has no reason to respect, all of whom grate on his nerves. Elhokar’s pacing, Renarin’s clicking a box open and closed, and Adolin’s browsing GQ. There’s a palpable desire for cathartic action. Adolin must not appreciate Kaladin feeding Elhokar’s paranoia, either, though. Kaladin doesn’t realize what an unstable powder keg Elhokar’s twisty mind is, and the royal cousin would prefer the bridgeboy (ew) not get in the way. It must be hard to see both of the ranking Kholin men praise Kaladin over him.
Stop saying bridgeboy, Adolin. We’ve been over this. I know you can’t read, but get one of your girlfriends to dictate the reread to you. Or just go back to your fashion mag.
Heraldic Symbolism: Interesting Heralds for this week. Nalan is obvious; Kaladin is acting more like a Skybreaker than a Windrunner, and Nalan just loves that noise. Chach throws a wrench in the works. Chach represents Bravery and Obedience, and Kaladin is not being obedient. This is a chapter full to the brim with insubordination. It doesn’t have a ton of bravery either.
Ars Arcanum: Syl names the Skybreakers for the first time, bemoaning Kaladin acting like he’s playing for another team. The Skybreakers seem like tools. This is an important moment for those tracking Syl’s discomfort and Kaladin’s downward slide towards betrayal.
Ars Mechanica: “Kaladin stooped down, inspecting the ruby in the hearth, which was held in place by a wire enclosure. Its strong heat made his face prickle with sweat; storms that ruby was so large that the Light infusing it should have blinded him.”
Invented by Navani, heating fabrials trap either flamespren or heatspren in rubies, then energize them with Stormlight and make them radiate their essential nature. This ruby is enormous, worth a fortune, and it might seem wasteful. Remember that on earth we use gold for wiring and diamonds for drill bits, although in the latter case it’s because the only thing diamonds are good for is cutting other diamonds. Friggin’ diamonds.
Sprenspotting: Stormspren are hanging out in a storm, being stormy, glowing red. Does anyone else find it worrisome that they seem to be entrancing Kaladin?
Minkwatching: BraidTug is the undisputed winner of the Great Mink Challenge of 2014. Let’s all take her example, and start out 2015 on a high note. If we all pull together, we can have more minks this quarter than ever before! Medium points to TheAndyman for naming this section.
This is the last reread of 2014! Since next Thursday is Christmas , and the Thursday after is New Year’s Day, we’re taking advantage of our unexpected Holiday Freedom and giving everyone a couple weeks off. See you in the new year, with assassins and other fun times galore.
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
Just had a last-minute thought wrt. Alice’s post last week, so I’m bringing it up here.
What about the epigraph for chapter 21? Are we holding off discussing epigraphs for a special occasion? Anyway:
(Listener’s Song, 33rd stanza)
Has the Song become so adulterated over time that it conveys inaccurate ideas? IIRC, Eshonai or her mother commented earlier about that very topic. Even so, this stanza implies the gods–whoever they are–can actually use the forms, and to ill ends. What’s up with that? Maybe it just means Listeners in Meditationform can be manipulated by those gods.
And I’m trying to sort out if desolation = Desolation and how Mediatation form could play into that. But my brain is in slow gear right now.
Edit-clarity
Ars Arcanum and Ars Mechanica this week…
Chanarach’s associated gemstone is ruby and soulcasting property is fire. The latter is a little thin, but the former not so much.
Why isn’t the heater fabrial’s ruby glowing as brightly as it should, as observed by Kal, and what’s moving inside the stone? I’m of the opinion there’s a Heatspren trapped in the gem who is trading the Stormlight for (duh) heat.
@2 Good catch on Chanarach’s gemstone! Trading Light for heat is also solid speculation. I’d been assuming that Kaladin could see through because he was becoming accustomed to Stormlight, but I think I like this better.
So the fabrials trap spren, but I’m guessing they do it in a different way than the shardblades since Syl doesn’t seem bothered by them. Is the trapped spren self-aware or could it be brought to that state? If so then would it not be a form of slavery? If the spren is not intelligent, then my next question would be if it harms the spren in some way to be trapped like this. Basically I’m wondering if having and using fabrials is going to become an issue in the future.
I laughed out loud at the commentry for the quote of the week, because I’m sure I said the same thing when reading it the first time. Also, all the mink posts are just golden.
@@.-@
Huh, I never even considered trapped sprens as a point of contention between spren and humans. I seems that there is difference between the spren like Syl and “normal” spren. I don’t know if it’s similar to the Kandra form Mistborn. Where the younger Kandra are nor intelligent and as they get older they “grow” into a intelligent being.
Do windspren become Honorspren? Or are they always Honorspren? And assuming that windspren can become Honorspren, what would happen if that spren was trapped in gemstone?
From the post:
I think you mean Kaladin here.
That being said I liked your post and you made me laugh a few times.
About that box of Renarin’s, I kept waiting for there to be something Really Important inside.
Carl, it was pure joy to read your post. I LOL’ed quite a few times.
And since it was only mentioned in the summary: we can never have enough Herdazian cousin’s, YAY for more to come ;)
Re Bridge-chapter: I agree and I’d go even further though I’m hesitant to criticize. BWS is so well structured that he must have had a clear reason to make this part one chapter, but here and in some chapters to come, I do wonder, why he “splintered” the story into so many chapters, instead of going on.
@Ways: I always read that the “used by god” forms are variations on the regular forms. I think Eshonai herself draws paralels while in Stormform between rythms so I took the same logic and applied it to the form as a whole.
Take something simple and good (“meditation form” and twist it a little and you end up with “lie form” or “deception form”). I think the spren themsleves could be corrupted by Odium, instead of those being new spren (i.e. rain spren + Odium = storm spren)
edit: spelling
@@.-@ & 5
Great questions about Spren. Hope we get the answers eventually. Before I’m old, senile and no longer care.
I’m wracking my brain trying to recall if Syl has had (or will have) any contact with fabrials other than dead-spren Shardblades, which are a special case, and I think the answer is no. So I’m not sure we can say conclusively that she isn’t bothered by them.
VladZ @8
So rainspren + Odium = corrupted rainspren (with red eyes), right? And when the corrupted spren bonds with a Listener, we get Deceptionform instead of Meditationform. I can roll with that idea, but what’s the link to “desolation”? And who are the gods? Certainly not the Shardholders, but perhaps the Unmade?
If the Firefight tour comes anywhere close to me, then I’m going to end up with a big stack of shiny, red RAFO cards.
By the way y’all, December 19 is Brandon’s 39th birthday.
Edited
Wyas @9: Actually, Brandon’s birthday is tomorrow (12/19, the day before mine!).
And he’s 1 year and 364 days younger than me. (And probably quite a bit wealthier! :-)
But why was a red-lightning spren looking to enter the king’s chamber? It isn’t as if it could simply hop into the room and bond with one of those there, could it? Could it be it was on a spy mission (but for whom)? Maybe it thought it was invisible to the humans … if so, why could Kaladin see it and no one else? Questions, questions.
You know, something just occured to me. Gems trap spren. It’s what their whole magitech is based on. And the only other thing that gets trapped by a gem is stormlight.
There’s SOMETHING there, I can just feel it. Something that probably has The Great and Powerful Brandon smirking over his writing table and wondering why no one has mentioned on the forums yet, I can just FEEL it. He probably hid some kind of sneaky-sneaky hint as to the resolution of the series in that somehow…
Are spren born from Stormlight? Or is Stormlight made by spren? Is Stormlight sprenfood or sprenpoop?Given that spren are sentient ideas, does this mean that Stormlight is… what? Materialized raw thought-matter?
And you know, I just realized that we got a VERY subtle hint that Shard blades are spren very early on. Navani told Dalinar that early shardbearers learned to do the hammerspace storage thing by slapping a gem on their shardblades. In Adolin’s duel however, when his opponent unbinds from his shardblade, Adolin takes of the binding ruby and crushes it in his hands. There is no mention of a spren escaping, as there was when Eshonai broke HER gem when she changed form. As the narration mentioned doing that was unneccessary to actually taking someone’s Shardblade, that means the gem was perfectly fine and he could have used it as it was, and the spren hadn’t ‘run out’. So… where was the spren that should have been paired with the gem to make it a functioning piece of magitech? IN THE BLADE. Real subtle Brandon…
LOL great commentary this week, Carl, thanks!
Not my favorite chapter, lots of stagnation. Really, the Lopen cousin was my favorite part, but then again, almost anything relating to Lopen and his cousins is pretty much my favorite.
Kal is getting annoying. Again. And annoying Syl. Again. Sweet.
Happy Holodays, everyone, see y’all back in the Storm Cellar next year!
bad_platypus @10. Very interesting as Brandon is exactly 2 years younger than me.
Carl: For me, there is bravery in this chapter. IMO, Shen asking Kaladin for the right to be armed is brave given Alethians’ prejudice against Parshmen. For most Alethians, Parshmen only exist to make Lighteyes’ lives easier. In such an individual’s mind, arming a Parshman is akin to starting a revolution.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
bad_platypus @10
Kinda depends on what time zone one is in, but I fixed it.
Not related to this chapter:
I’ve just read Brandons blog from yesterday. He says that Stormlight 3 might not be Szeth’s book!!! Also also he plans to write the book in mid-end 2015, planing on a 2016 release.
Which will be released first:
Stormlight 3 or Winds of Winter?
WRT Syl’s feelings about trapped spren: I thought the kinds of spren that you could (or indeed would) catch in fabrials were the non-sentient sorts, so they’d be more like beasts of burden than slaves.
Reminds me of this exchange (words may not be perfectly accurate).
“It has plenty of food, safety from predators, and nothing to do but sit there and be looked at. Everything a chull-thing could want.”
“Would you be happy with that?”
“Of course not. But I’m a soldier, not a chull-thing.”
Awh… Thanks Carl! Glad you liked it.
Finding a mink among rocks was harder than I expected.
Re: Chapter With a book this large, sometimes nothing happens. I see it as one of those. Or as Carl puts it: This is the bridgiest bridge chapter that ever bridged in Bridgetown.
At least Kaladin tells Dalinar his story. Even if reactions on both sides are less than expected. We don’t have to wait for an entire book – looking a WoT….
And Shen asks for the spear.
But since there’s not much to say about the chapter – what wild tangents will develop in two weeks? Maybe a random SA Meme challenge? (Sorry mods.)
Love the comments,
Now as far as the parshendi gods, I have two ideas:
1) The most likely one is that when Odium defeated Honor and Cultivation they broke up and spren were created, some big (Nightwatcher, Stormfater), some small. My idea is that some of the big spren were also corrupted and worshiped as gods by the parshendi. Immagine a corrupted Stormfater as a god which provides a corrupted Syl to a listener and turns him into a voidbringer. I really like this as it creates a sort of symetry within the world and introduces further drama since our heroes’ spren could also be in danger. I can easily see stories about Syl and Pattern and their struggles aginst Odium.
2) The second idea puts Odium in a more direct role, and the gods were him and his followers (he has to have some – a villain without any minions is hard to immagine and honestly is not that effective since he cannot be everywhere and do everything). I think at least some of the “immortal” world hoppers are working for Odium – and serving as his Heralds (gods) for the Parshendi.
As far as trapping spren in gems, I still half-believe that was the Recreance. The moment humanity figured out they can imprison spren and have them do their bidding. I mean, if we really consider spren as sentient beings what the “humans” on Roshar are doing is slavery and force labour, even murder. If I was a spren leader I would be at least a little mad at that :)
I am really hesitant to think of trapped minor spren (firespren, windspren,etc) as enslaved. It seems more like redirecting their influence in our world, much like a windbreak redirects wind. But we really need to see how Brandon handles that.
Ways, et al – I expect that we’ll do a summary post for the Listener Songs at the end of Part 2; if it’s my job, I’ll probably group them by Song so we can look at them in as much context as we’re given. I also have a curiosity as to whether the Songs are associated with the Rhythms mentioned in the Eshonai interludes; if I get a chance, of course, I’m going to ask Brandon!
More from me later… but it’s a busy time.
@22 I’m pretty sure each song has it’s own associated Rhythm (that does not look like it should be a word…) I think someone already asked him about it, let’s see if I can find it…
Kaladin really could not arm Shen at this point – he needed to consult Dalinar before he could give Shen a weapon. If Kaladin armed Shen without consulting Dalinar first, the decision would get challenged by somebody, resulting in trouble very quickly.
“Yeah Kaladin, listen to Kaladin.” Heh. If only we all listened all the time to our best selves. Fun commentary, Carl!
And hey, look at me, two weeks in a row! Do I get a prize mink?
Ok, let’s see. Bridge 4 starring in a bridge chapter in bridge town, yep. Tough spot to stop reading, too. Luckily, I still have to catch up with chapters 6 – 20, so that’ll give me something to do during the break.
Good description of Kal and Dal’s moral essentialism, Carl. It also makes me squirm a little – I had a supervisor who described me in much the same way, 12 years ago in my chaplain’s training. It’s hard to get out of that place when you’re in it, for whatever reason, and it gets you in trouble in two ways. You trust where you shouldn’t (Kaladin with Moash, Dalinar last book with Sadeas) and don’t trust where you should (Kal with Syl, Kal with Dalinar, arguably Kal with Shen, etc.). I suppose the other problem is one of judgment – not judging well what you should reveal, when, and with whom.
Carl, you also do a good job of pointing out that Dalinar’s response is entirely understandable; Kal’s reaction to his response is irrational. (Although Kal being irrational re: Amaram is perfectly understandable; I’m glad he didn’t try to kill Amaram the moment he saw him.) I just wish Dalinar had added another sentence or two here to assure Kaladin that he would investigate. But then, the reveal later in the book that Dalinar’s been investigating is very cool, and one of my favorite moments, so there you go.
Re: Adolin’s use of “bridgeboy”…um, at least he’s *intentionally* being demeaning? I mean, it’s better that he means to be an ass instead of unconsciously being condescending…I guess? Yay?
Again, it’s frustrating now, but it pays off later with how great it is when Adolin and Kaladin start to come together. And as Braid Tug says, thank goodness these conflicts aren’t protracted across multiple books as in the Wheel of Time! This might be a bridge chapter that doesn’t resolve much, but the book as a whole is VERY satisfying.
Re: Heralds, I’m sure it’s been covered at some point in the reread, but…how do you folks know which Heralds are in the arch at the opening of the chapter? Those pics are really cool, but they don’t mean anything to me. I’m guessing there’s a diagram on the 17th shard or the coppermind or something. Oh well…I’m content to trust y’all.
Maybe the bravery in this chapter is in Kaladin telling his story to Dalinar? He regrets it immediately, but it was a brave step to take…the right step to take. One of the last right decisions he’ll make for awhile.
Re: the creation of fabrials and whether the spren involved are sentient – unknown, but the author of the Ars Arcanum says “I am more and more convinced that the creation of these devices requires forced enslavement of transformative cognitive entities” aka spren. “Forced enslavement” doesn’t sound good, does it? And the sentience of the spren involved is hard to judge – it seems spren have trouble retaining their intellect in the Physical world, but might be perfectly sentient in Shadesmar. So if ‘forced enslavement’ involves pulling spren against their will into the physical world, robbing them of intellect and trapping them in gems…
I say if, because we don’t KNOW if that’s what happens. And perhaps Navani doesn’t either. But it’s troubling. And, of course, the existence of fabrials is what drove the Parshendi to break the peace and murder Gavilar…so yeah, the implications of fabrial making are huge and still to be explored, I’m sure.
Happy birthday Bad Platipus. 41 is a prime number.
@25 I like how you say Kaladin didn’t “try to kill Amaram” the moment he saw him. Of course at this point in the book I had no idea that Kaladin wouldn’t actually be able to do so (unless he can kill a full shardbearer as the regular spearman he appears to be without Syl: doubtful).
Was it fabrials that made the Parshendi kill Gavilar? Do we even know what caused that? It was something to do with bringing back their gods, I recall.
I don’t agree that the use of fabrials could have offended the sentient spren or led to the Recreance.
After all, we know that the KR used fabrials extensively throughout their history, it wasn’t a newly discovered technology when they quit. That female Radiant in Dalinar’s vision used a fabrial to heal (those who have the Surge of Progression through the bond don’t need to use objects to heal, as seen with Lift), the Oathgates are massive fabrials, etc.
Nor did we see the spren of our nascent KR react negatively to the fabrials as they do to the shardblades. The nobles, in particular, are constantly surrounded by various minor fabrials, yet we didn’t hear even a peep from Pattern or Syl (who is around Kaladin, who has to hang around nobles a lot) on the subject.
Re: Kaladin, it does seem fantastically naive of him to expect that Dalinar would do something about Amaram immediately and on his say-so alone. But Kaladin is understandably irrational on the subject, and also it cost him so much to force himself to tell Dalinar about it in the first place, that lack of instant reaction from the prince could only feel crushing and reinforce all of Kaladin’s prejudices.
I really love how Sanderson wrote this plot-line to be so annoying, yet so natural and believable.
@27 Xaladin, re: “Was it fabrials that made the Parshendi kill Gavilar? Do we even know what caused that? It was something to do with bringing back their gods, I recall.” Yeah, you caught me. Apparently I was garbling things.
I was thinking of was three separate things which …may not actually be connected.
1. Per Eshonai, the Parshendi first learned that you could capture spren in gemstones from humans…i.e., they saw fabrials.
2. The actual reason the Parshendi had Gavilar assassinated was to prevent him bringing back their gods, as you say – i.e., from bringing back Surgebinding and the Knights Radiant. Like Amaram and the Sons of Honor, like Jasnah, they connect Surgebinding with the return of the gods/the Desolations.
3. I suppose I conflated those two things – humans are learning how to capture (forcibly bond?) spren, the human leader is trying to recreate Surgebinding, kill the human leader! I was also probably subconsciously remembering the strange dark stone that Gavilar had with, presumably, a captured spren inside.
So there was at least SOME substance to my comment, but I was wrong to say Gavilar was killed because of fabrials.
@28 Isilel – like you, I don’t subscribe to the theory that fabrial-making was connected to the Recreance. Whether or not fabrial-making could offend sentient spren, though, is still a possibility I raise. I don’t subscribe to it yet; but I do think it’s possible. Again, the use of the term “forced enslavement” in the Ars Arcanum is striking, and I’ll be very surprised if it doesn’t become an issue at some point.
Which would be a shame, because I think fabrials are neat. And since fabrials can duplicate some or maybe even all Surgebindings (as in the Soulcasting fabrials), they could be important weapons against Odium and the Voidbringers.
We also don’t know how much Pattern or Syl understand or perceive about fabrials. They certainly are bothered by “dead” Shardblades – but the spren in fabrials aren’t dead. It may just be that Syl and Pattern don’t perceive the enslavement yet.
You make a good point about the ancient use of apparent fabrials by the Knights Radiant. But the ancient fabrials may or may not be the same as modern ones. The Ars Arcanum indicates that modern fabrials are created ‘scientifically’ by artifabrians and directly contrasts that with the more ‘mystical’ abilities of the KR – specifically with their Surgebinding, but…the modern creation of fabrials is a different skillset. It may also be a different process. Humans and spren had a different relationship during the time of the KR – perhaps spren ‘volunteered’ for fabrial use back then, to help the effort against Odium, even as the more advanced spren voluntarily formed Nahel bonds. (Compare that to how the Parshendi used to change form – ‘mystically’ by going into a highstorm and singing the right songs in the right mindset to attract a spren. Now they do it ‘scientifically’, trapping spren in stones until they’re ready to bond them. As Eshonai thinks – progress, putting nature in a box.)
Or perhaps fabrials using spren are the equivalent of ‘enslaving’ a chull or a horse by hitching it to a wagon. We don’t know enough yet to be sure. “Forced enslavement” is never not an ominous term, though.
Re: Kaladin’s plotline being “so annoying, yet so natural and believable” – hah. Well said, I agree completely.
Edited for clarity but not verbosity, because me.
VladZ @20
One problem with your first idea is that Cultivation is not dead or splintered, IIRC. I’m vitually certain there’s WOB on that somewhere, but I don’t have time to chase down the reference right now. One or more of the big spren may certainly have been corrupted (and it’s an interesting theory), but we don’t have evidence, or even a suggestion, that that was the case (yet).
I agree that Odium must have minions and it makes sense that they may be the gods worshipped by the Parshendi/Listeners. I don’t want to believe that some of the worldhoppers are working for the bad guys though.
Isilel @28 & chaplainchris1 @29
Isilel cites some great examples that I couldn’t pull up off-hand. Thanks! However, I think CC1 brings up some excellent points (and your verbosity :-) saved me much thinking/writing/editing time; TY to you also, Chris).
WeiryWriter @23 – Thanks! That’s a perfect example of why I’m so grateful for the crossover between this reread and the 17th Shard – I just don’t have the time to be as familiar as I’d like with all the great stuff over there. I knew someone had suggested it, but either I’d never seen the answer, or I’d forgotten it.
I’m glad we’re going to have a separate post on the Listeners’ Songs, because I find them fascinating.
Ways @1 – I’m guessing, like you, that Meditation Form induces an altered state of consciousness which is probably helpful but also opens the Listeners to outside influence.
@6 – Hi Bellaberry! Thanks for your kind words in the comments to the last post. Re: Renarin’s box, I have a vague idea that it either was hiding his spren, or actually…was?…his spren. Anyone else remember that?
@8 travyl – I’m actually just the slightest bit suspicious of the Herdazian cousins. The Lopen is great, of course, but…Herdazian Maffia?
Also @8, regarding the structure of the chapter – I dare to wonder if Brandon needed chapter breaks in order to do all the Listener songs that he wanted to do. But ending the chapter with word of an assassin is certainly a nice cliffhanger, intended to pull you right on into the next chapter. I doubt Brandon intended us to stop here for the next several weeks… ;)
Of course the first sentence of the next chapter has a calming effect.
@8 and 9 – I don’t know that I buy the idea of Odium-spren as ‘corrupted’ spren. My working understanding has been that some are of Honor, some of Cultivation, and (per this book) some of Odium. There’s also the possibility that some are of Adolnasium directly, predating the Shattering of Adolnasium.
I’m also operating under the theory that the Unmade are likely the same as the gods of the Parshendi, and that they’re likely super-spren of a similar class to the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, but related to/’of’ Odium rather than of Honor or Cultivation. Too little data to be sure, of course.
@11 Alison, maybe the ability to see Syl is indicative of an ability to see other spren? He did see the Stormfather…maybe a greater-than-normal awareness of spren comes with the Nahel bond.
@12 – interesting post, despite the use of “sprenpoop”. :)
@14 – maybe a failure of bravery on Kaladin’s part, in his resistance to arming Shen?
@16 – woah. Firefight after New Years, two new Mistborn books 2015 and 2016, new Stormlight 2016…who knows what all else he’ll put out. Incredible.
@17 – seriously? I’m still not sure WoW will ever come out. We’ll see. Hopefully.
@24 – If Kal had cited military necessity – ideally, agreeing to be Shen’s advocate with the higher ups – then fine. Instead he said no. He couldn’t arm a *parshman*. What would people think!?! Storming man had a good life, for a parshman. That’s the voice of prejudice there.
Re: worldhoppers, some of them may be tools of Odium (inadverdent or otherwise). [Though Odium is hate – he’d be an uncomfortable boss…] But I seriously doubt that any of the human worldhoppers we know about are the Parshendi ‘gods’.
Look, I’m *trying* to be brief!
Oh, I want to write a whole essay on captive spren, whether it’s moral, whether it was an aspect of the Recreance… and I DON’T HAVE TIME today. Quick, not-well-thought-out comments:
I have concerns, and I don’t know how long it will be until we get clarification. When I first realized that fabrials used trapped spren it really freaked me out, I’ll say that much.
It may be that not all spren have (or are even able to approach) the kind of sentience that the bonding spren have. Spren like Syl and Pattern may see the others much like we see animals; chulls are good for pulling, heatspren are good for heating. They may be right… or not.
I have to wonder about the ones used for Soulcasting, though; it seems like that would take a particular kind of spren – like a Cryptic or whatever Ivory is. Capturing those for use in a fabrial just can’t be acceptable to anyone, right? And while Navani thinks she could repair Shallan’s fabrial, weren’t we told at some point that all the Soulcasters had come down from ancient times? And that the fabrials they’re making now are practically toys compared to what they had back in the day?
Could it be that the “wicked thing of eminence” was someone who trapped and enslaved unwilling spren (the bond-able kind) for fabrials? I don’t know, but it would certainly be cause for the spren to feel like the humans had betrayed them.
I’m reasonably convinced that the Unmade are a) the Parshendi gods and that b) they have something to do with the Recreance. I have no idea what, though. (Well, I have ideas, but only things I’ve concocted. Nothing based on WoB or the text.) I do think it’s at least plausible that the Recreance was in some way related to someone figuring out how to go from trapping minor spren to trapping the sentient ones. I also think it’s plausible that the Unmade are greater spren who betrayed both humans and spren by accepting Odium.
Just for what it’s worth, do we have any actual evidence that the Parshendi were on the “other side” from humans during the original Desolations?
Okay, that was a bunch of random thoughts and barely coherent, but it’s all I can do for now. Maybe tomorrow I can see what kind of coherent ideas it triggered for someone else? :)
Oh, and we do have WoB that Cultivation is still “living” as of TWoK, at least – as in, the person and the Shard are still together and not splintered. Also, there were spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived.
Wetlandernw @33:
But from what we have seen so far, which is admittedly a fragmentary picture, the Recreance wasn’t initiated by the spren, but by the KR bonded to them. So, I really don’t see how their theorized reaction to capture of spren for use in fabrials could have led to it?
And while I am sick and tired of “magic is bad/childish and needs to go away, so that a secondary world can become (something closer to) our reality” cliche, I find the “magic is good, technology is evil” one equally tiresome. IMHO, magic and technology don’t need to be in opposition and Sanderson’s revealed plans for a futuristic “Alloy of Law in Space” trilogy gives me hope that he sees it that way as well. IMMV.
I’d just like to point out a little detail in regard to the last Listener’s Song stanza (and don’t fret it, I missed it the first few times, as well): It’s Mediationform, with only one “t”. Having a form that’s useful for negotiations turned to deceit makes more sense, as well.
Chris@25: Re: Heralds, … how do you folks know which Heralds are in the arch at the opening of the chapter?
It’s easy :) You have to combine the ARS Arcanum, which essentially “numbers” the Heralds, starting with 1 Jes = Jezrien. Now go to see at the faces in the endsheet of WoK. Start with the Herald on the right upper edge which is Jezrien (he has a crown, to identify him by). Then move clockwise around the picture… (credits go to WoK reReread (e.g. comment 5 in chapter 37); coppermind, 17th Shard)
@33… Re the Parshendi Gods / The Unmade
From what Taravigian says I always thought, that the while the Unmade are likely evil, they are not really connected to Odium and are not the Parshendi gods. I thought, they might be an older form of magic – from before the Shards came here. “Old magic, like the fullfilment of whishes, though this doesn’t fit, since we connect the Nightwatcher, who grants the wishes to Cultivation.
Re trapped spren:
agree about the trouble it might bring, though Isilel is right, that they’d used them in ancient times as well.
@35, Torvald: good catch, thanks for mentioning it.
And while it still lasts: Happy birthday Bad Platypus.
Chaplainchris1@25:
The faces (or icons) in the arch at the chapter headings match those around the diagram on the front endsheet of the Way of Kings (hardcover edition), reproduced here. If these are taken in clockwise order starting from the upper right (upper left, in the book), they match up to the numbering of the heralds in the Ars Arcanum, in the appendix. Many of the traditional virtues associated with the heralds appeared prominently in the chapters that are marked with a given icon. For example, the first icon, which would be matched with the Vorin number Jes, tended to appear heading chapters where Dalinar or Kaladin was exercising leadership. The fourth, which would be matched with the Vorin number Vev, appeared in chapters where Kaladin or his father were acting as a physician or medic. Likewise, the fifth face, Vorin number Palah, showed up when Jasnah or Shallan was doing scholarly research, and the sixth, Vorin number Shash, appeared when Shallan was doing drawing). Information about the heralds and their names, titles, and activities that is sprinkled throughout the text supports this correlation. By now, there is a strong body of evidence that these faces do stand for something in the chapter associated in some way with the respective herald. It is not always immediately obvious what that is or how it is associated. A summary of what is known about the heralds does appear in the Coppermind Wiki
speaking of Fabrials but from WoK The dark gemstone on a chain that Galivar had and gave to Seth for (his brother?) sounds similar to the one used by Seths master when he is given further instructions on a sheet of paper in WoK. Is the description similar enough to be the same type of fabrial? We know that the one the messenger to Seth uses, allows him to dissappear. What reason would the King of the Alethi have for having one, and where did he get it? and many more questions.
Hope I am not to off topic.
The problem I have with the spren-enslavement idea, is that spren are so intimately connected with the forces of nature.
Does having a fire mean you have trapped heatspren?
Is a hospital a pain-spren prison?
Are decayspren stuck in trash-heaps?
Because if we are going to say fabrials trap spren, then we have to admit these are traps as well. The implications would mean we could do practically nothing without imprisoning some spren.
Zen @39 – “Because if we are going to say fabrials trap spren, then we have to admit these are traps as well.” – Not really. It’s fairly clear by now that at least some spren are attracted to certain phenomena – but not irresistably so. If they happen to be nearby in Shadesmar, and/or if the phenomenon is sufficiently strong, they are drawn to it, but they are not forcibly held there. They can leave whenever the attraction is insufficient, or when something more interesting happens. Trapping them in a gemstone, however, means that they are a) held in the Physical Realm and b) held in a specific location regardlesss of attraction.
It does, however, bring up an interesting question that we’ve never yet solved: just how are the spren related to the phenomena? How much is cause, and how much is effect? And is it different for different types of spren? We’ve had multiple instances of both people and spren indicating that spren (e.g. exhaustionspren, creationspren, angerspren) are drawn to their related phenomena… but then how does trapping them in a gemstone make a fabrial work?
If you look at Navani’s notebook pages, it seems possible that some spren cause phenomena, while others respond to them. The emotion bracelet works by reading the response of the trapped spren to the subjects feelings of anticipation, anger, disgust, sadness, love, hate, joy, trust, fear, and surprise. The pain knife, on the other hand, specifically causes pain in the target person. It seems probable that most of the fabrials being made are of the latter sort, in which the spren are somehow used to cause the phenomenon, rather than reacting to it.
What we don’t know is whether it normally works that way for some spren, or not. Are flamespren simply drawn to flames, or are they required in order to make something burn? Or is it some of both? Are they initially drawn to the flames, but their presence also enhances the ability of the flames to consume the fuel? How does it all work????
Windspren @38 – I don’t think they’re the same at all. Taravangian’s representative had a Soulcaster, which he used to turn the wall to smoke. He didn’t actually disappear, he just walked out through the new opening. It’s described as “a gemstone suspended in his palm by a chain wrapped around his fingers.” The object Gavilar gave to Szeth is described as “a small crystalline sphere tied to a chain.” So not a gemstone, but a sphere, which seems to glow with a black light.
FWIW, there’s a theory floating on the 17th Shard that Gavilar’s black sphere contains a trapped Unmade. Special.
@40: I’m not sure whether cause and effect are the right denomination for the relationship between spren and their respective domain – are we even sure whether one can be without the other?
40. Wetlandernw
Can we say that for absolute sure? It sounds reasonable, but I can’t prove it. Wouldn’t that just make fabrials a difference of degree, not kind?
@40 I don’t think we can say that about fabrials. It makes the assumption that spren can only be used in one type of fabrial, which doesn’t seem right. The pain knife and the emotion bracelet act differently because they are different kinds of fabrials (the first is an augmenter, the latter an alerter) which from what I understand has more to do with how the fabrial is constructed than the spren “powering” it.
We have examples of pain-producing fabirals (an augmenter), and pain-relieving fabrials (a diminisher). Granted they are both kinds of altering fabrial but they still do very different things with captured painspren (though I guess we don’t have confirmation that they use painspren, but what else would they use?). I don’t see why they couldn’t eventually design a fabrial to detect pain though.
On the causing/attracting discussion on the nature of spren. I don’t think you can split it up by spren-type (i.e. some spren are attracted by something, while other spren cause something) like that. I think it should be the same for all spren. As for which it is, I really don’t think it’s a simple question. Even Syl expresses uncertainity, and if anyone should know it should be the spren themselves. My personal thought on it is that it isn’t one or the other, but rather both (or maybe neither) for quantum-y reasons.
Also the Chapter 21 re-read said that this would likely be the place to share questions for Brandon on his Firefight tour? I just updated/revamped the Ultimate List of Questions for the 17th Shard if anyone is interested. I’ll try to update it with any questions people sugges here as well.
@40 Wetlander – well said, Alice. @43 ZenBossanova – really? I guess you could say that it’s just a difference in degree – the same way a prison cell is just a different sort of room. But there’s a world of difference between me wandering into, and then out of, somebody’s living room, vs. them stuffing me into a jail cell.
@35 Torvald Nom – wow, really? I’ve read it as “meditation” every single time…*mind blown*
Re: spren cause/effect – when Sigzil is measuring Kaladin’s ability with Adhesion, sticking a rock to a rock wall, there are little tiny purple spren crawling around. According to Rock, they are actually holding the rock against the wall. (Which I don’t really like, but it’s what he says.) Which would indicate that…well, I don’t know. But it sounds like Kaladin’s abilities – some of them, at least – don’t just involve manipulating forces (Surges), but manipulating spren.
I don’t really know what to make of it but it seems relevant here. If all Surgebinding is really a Spren-Radiant pair manipulating lesser spren to do their feats, for instance…?
I don’t see a problem with trapping non-sentient, physical spren in a gemstone. Why would this be more objectionable than our eating of animals and plants? Trapping a sentient spren is another matter since we feel a kinship with them and can empathize with their situation. There is also a distinction between physical and emotional spren. The former may be causative as well as associative with the physical phenomena; the latter are only associated or attracted to the exhibited emotion. The heating fabrial of this chapter may consist of a trapped heatspren, or a purely physical conversion of light energy to heat. In the former case, it would not require recharging by stormlight; in the latter case, it would. There are contrary indications in this chapter as to the ‘mechanism’ of the ruby heat fabrial. On the one hand, Kaladin is able to peer into the large gem and see that there is a turbulent glow in the interior. On the other, mention is made of light activation.
@42 & 43 – We can’t say anything for sure – there’s just too much we don’t yet know about spren. We can’t even be absolutely sure that the things Pattern, Ivory, Syl, or Wyndle – much less humans – say about spren are 100% definitive; they’re all, to one degree or another, unreliable narrators. In that sense, this is all breezes and winds, and we might as well not bother to have the conversation.
Still, we have the book, and conversations in it, to give us hints. At least we can consider how the Alethi see it, and why, and whether they seem to be justified in doing it.
I’m still up in the air on that last one; for the first, I don’t think they’ve bothered to really think about it. When confronted with the question, they seem to have vague assumptions about which spren cause things, and which are drawn to them, but that’s about it. Spren just are – and trapping one is no better or worse than trapping a wild animal or training a domesticated one. Until the recent return of the bonding spren types, I’m sure I wouldn’t have argued with them on that point; even now, I hesitate to go either direction without knowing more.
I’m pretty sure I’d call it enslavement if someone trapped Syl in a gemstone and carried her around making her manipulate gravity and adhesion at their whim… but I have no problem with Kaladin making use of those same abilities when she gives them to him via their bond. She’s there by her own choice, and while she could leave if she wanted, it’s not in her nature to abandon him unles he abandons his Ideals.
There’s a difference between the bonding spren and “normal” spren, I think; I just don’t know what it is. If the normal ones are not self-aware, I’m not sure it’s “slavery” – but I’m still a little uncomfortable. On the other hand, the emotion spren depend on people for their existence, so… they might get as much out of it as the people do.
Hey, here’s a looney theory. What if Stormlight gives you the ability to “feed” the spren, rather than simply manipulating natural forces? In that sense, a bonded spren might give his or her human greater-than-normal authority over (or access to) certain kinds of spren, but he has to have Stormlight to give them. Everyone else just has to use the Stormlight stored up in gems, giving them to trapped spren via fabrials. I’m… not sure where I’m going with this, really. Does anyone else have an idea?
ETA: Oy. That’s what I get for posting without checking to see whether someone else has commented in the meantime… Good thoughts, all. Some similar, some different.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there’s some sort of “quantum-y effect” going on, particularly with the physical-effects spren. And of course, there’s a good chance we won’t actually find out because that’s not the point of the story.
WeiryWriter – The Ultimate List of Questions? Cool! Thank you! Do you have a means of splitting up the questions among people who are going to signings? I’m hoping to get to a Firefight signing, if his tour includes Seattle – especially since I had to miss the WoR signing.
@47 We don’t really have a means to do that. It’s more just a resource of possible questions. If you want to set something up, let me know.
As for the Seattle signing, it’s kind of annoying that Random Penguin hasn’t posted the tour yet. But individual stores have started to announce events, like the University Bookstore in Seattle for Jan 7.
Oh, cool! It didn’t occur to me to check the bookstore; they usually don’t have the event posted until well after the entire tour has been announced. Well, YIPPEE! I’ll be there with
bellsleft glove on!Only now I’m confused. On the website, it says he’ll be here January 6, but the tumblr post says January 7. (I’d prefer the 7th, myself, but I’ll take either one!)
ETA: And as you say, the publisher hasn’t yet posted the tour schedule. Last time I asked Peter about it, he said the details were still being worked out, but that was a while back. I guess I can wait a few more days to find out for sure. *sigh*
Hmm the tumblr post refers to the 7th as a tuesday, when the 7th is actually a wednesday. That probably means it was a typo?
Well, that probably means it really is the 6th, because the U-Books website specifically mentions it being release day. Oh well. I can handle two late nights in a row… I think. Good thing I don’t have much to do on Wednesday!
Happy Epiphany to us, I guess! :)
Wet, what do you mean, you don’t have much to do on wednesday evening? It’s day before thursday, day before your next post! ;)
Re spren:
STBLST I don’t think the rule (attraction vs cause vs combination) has to apply to all spren the same way. The best indication for that is that the sentient spren have different skills to hide/be seen at will. While Syl has no problems hiding (except from Rock), Pattern is practically incapable. So there are differences between certain spren.
My personal opinion is still more on the “attracted to” side, and even if Rock said they are holding it, this doesn’t mean he’s right, just that he think he is.
Btw: I do have trouble comparing spren with animals. I am not vegan, I do eat meat and all, but still we shouldn’t treat them as “things”. Some might appear more or less intelligent but we should put some thought to how they are treated …
My two cents is that if the “lesser” spren were sentient, or had feelings of any sort, Syl would perhaps treat them differently? Both her warding off of the death spren (with a sword no less) in TWoK and her wishing that she could attract her own glory spren makes me feel like she sees them as inconsequential.
Also, on the argument about causation vs. attraction and spren, Syl at least seems to think they cause things, otherwise why bother to fight off the death spren she sees coming at Kaladin? So that seems to me that at least some spren, although we definitely can’t positively say all, cause things to happen.
Perhaps it has more to do with a circular effect, where a small pulse in the cognitive realm caused by a thought attracts a spren (say feeling like death attracts a death spren) which then causes an increased feeling of death, attracting more death spren, creating a spiral that ends in an event unless it is derailed by some other force of thought or action….. and the impetus could perhaps originate from either side (the person, or the spren). The flip side being a death spren popping into the physical realm. Showing itself to a healthy person probably wouldn’t have enough impact to cause the spiral, but to someone sickly or quite depressed it very easily could. Equally, the human thought of death could attract the spren and start the spiral. I think it takes a combination of both.
45. chaplainchris1
If you are chained to the same spot, then yes, it is a matter of degree, not difference. Do we have any examples of minor spren leaving of their own free will? (ie. flame spren leaving fire, rotspren leaving decay without being forced by an antiseptic,etc)
Do things in our world trap them, or just trap the part of them that is in this world?
47. Wetlandernw
I completely agree about the major spren. Trapping Syl would be the same as trapping any other sentient being. And yes, it appears to me that spren do some kind of feeding on stormlight.
53. travyl
Perhaps instead of comparing minor spren to animals, a better comparison would be plants.
54. Shlee
Yes, Spren and cause have a very circular cause and effect. If asked do they cause, or are just attracted by causes, I would have to say, yes.
Zen @55 – Is a moth trapped by my porch light? I say no – it’s free to go any time it’s willing to leave that lovely, mesmerizing light. But it doesn’t. It stays there until I turn off the light, or it dies from the heat. (Okay, they don’t die from heat any more, because I no longer use incandescents, but the point remains.) Do I imprison it by turning on my light? Have I enslaved it? I don’t think so – but even if the moth has a fatal attraction to my porch light, I’m still turning the light on, because I’m more concerned with not breaking my ankle than I am with the possible enslavement of a moth.
Maybe spren are attracted to something because they can feed on it, but if you give them Stormlight to feed on, they can cause the thing they normally feed on.
I also just ran across this WoB, which seems to suggest that spren are attracted to phenomena, rather than cause them:
QUESTION: It seems like a movie adaptation would have just constant spren everywhere?
BRANDON SANDERSON: That’s why I made it so that not every use of the emotion causes them-so it wouldn’t get too crazy even when I’m writing them. And what’s happening is the spren exist on the Cognitive plane, on Shadesmar, so they have to be attracted, they have to be nearby enough to flock to you, so it depends on how common the spren is.
(boldface type mine)
And also,
To the spren, is becoming mindless the same as death?
BRANDON SANDERSON: They consider it as such.
So are the lesser spren, such as flamespren, not mindless then? Or are they technically dead? Hmmmm………..given Syl’s reactions, I’d assume that they are not dead, and therefore not mindless, which makes me wonder if any spren can upgrade its levels of sentience in some way that we don’t yet know about, or if only certain ones such as Syl and Pattern have that ability.
My understanding is that the Nahel bond is what allows Pattern and Syl to maintain their sentience while in the Physical world. As Kaladin learns more ideals, Syl remembers more; when their bond degrades, she becomes more like a wind spren again. Likewise, Pattern is rapidly growing in ability and complexity of thought, but when Shallan repressed their bond, he seemed to lose most sentience.
Which is why the fabrial use is potentially troubling. Being in our world…no. We exist in all three realms. Being in the Physical plane is dangerous for spren. *Perhaps* fabrial use is like harvesting plants. But we don’t know that. *Perhaps* it captures spren, traps them in a gem in the physical world, where they lose intellect. Or perhaps something else. We don’t know yet. “Forced enslavement of transformative cognitive entities” is the description of creating fabrials, though.
@Shlee – excellent contributions, thanks! I quite liked your circular feedback loop idea – but it seems the qu0tes you found argue against that, and that spren are attracted by rather than causing phenomena.
But then I wonder what “TRANSFORMATIVE” cognitive entity, as a description of spren, signfies. What are they transforming? Stormlight? And from what to what?
But it makes me think of Pattern’s appreciation for (attraction to?) ‘lies’ and figures of speech. He’s not causing those, but he likes them. (And he’s also capable of helping Shallan create ‘lies’ i.e. illusions, so there’s still some feedback effect in play.)
birgit @57 – Oooooh. I like that idea! It makes so much sense in certain scenarios, though I haven’t run through the entire gamut of interactions yet. Nice!
@60 Chaplainchris1 cites a significant statement about spren and fabrials: “Forced enslavement of transformative cognitive entities”. I don’t recall this phrase from the books, but if it’s a comment by BWS, then it clarifies some matters. The coupling of the terms enslavement and cognitive indicates spren having consciousness being imprisoned in a fabrial gemstone. The books also feature ‘minor’ spren such as windspren being playful. While this reflects childlike behavior, it also bespeaks conscious actions and associated emotions such as joy. The transformative function is perhaps best seen in the heating fabrial, where the entrapped heatspren converts stormlight into thermal radiation. Such transformation can also be seen in terms of ‘feeding’ the spren (to use Birgit’s phrasing) which then activates its characteristic behavior. Another example is the smokestone in Jasnah’s soulcaster fabrial that was largely responsible for converting the fallen massive stone to smoke. Perhaps the other stormlit stones in the fabrial served as an effective light source to activate the ‘smokespren’ entrapped in its gemstone.
To emphasize a point that ChaplainChris1 @60 said but did not focus upon. The Nahel bond only helps/provides (not sure we know enough to definitively know what the correct verb should be) otherwise sentinent capable Spren (such as Cryptics and Honorspren) with the ability to maintain sentinance in the Physical Realm. While in the Cognitive Realm, it is clear that such Spren maintain there sentinance. For example, Pattern talked about learning new forms of “lies” while observing Shallan (and others) that will benefit other Cryptics. Such knowledge would not be necessary if Nahel Bond was the only reason that Spren became Sentinent.
It appears that certain types of Spren (like the Cryptics, Honorspren and at least the other spren who would bond with KR) are the “people” of the Cognitive Realm whereas spren like creative spren, rot spren, etc. are the animals and plants of the Cognitive Realm. These “lesser” spren are alive, but they do not have a consciousness or other such ability that distinguishes humans from animals and plants in the Physical Realm.
(Note: in the above analysis, I am equating the Parshman and Parshendi with humans. Biologically, they may not be “humans”. But they certainly are not “animals” in the Real Life sense of the word.)
Not sure why I felt complelled to write what I wrote. When I started to draft this post, I thought I would have somethig more insightful. More importantly, not what, if any, it helps the current discussion. Oh well.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
@62 STBLST – I think that’s probably an excellent explanation of the term ‘transformative cognitive entity’ – at least it makes sense to me, thank you! The ‘forced enslavement of transformative cognitive entities’ phrase comes from The Words of Radiance Ars Arcanum, in the beginning of the section on fabrials (greatly expanded from the section in The Way of Kings, interestingly). The complete sentence is “I am more and more convinced that the creation of these devices requires forced enslavement of transformative cognitive entities, known as ‘spren’ to the local communities.”
@63 – that ‘plant/animal/human’ metaphor for explaining different levels of consciousness for spren is still problematic for me. I don’t think we know enough to be sure of that. Honorspren like Syl are surely fully sentient in Shadesmar (the Cognitive Realm), but without the Nahel bond, don’t seem to be able to manifest physically and maintain that intellect. Syl degenerates to windspren-like when her bond with Kaladin is damaged.
The question is, is the reverse true? Syl, in this realm, without a bond, is no more intelligent than a windspren. Is it therefore logical to guess that windspren, in the other realm, would be more intelligent, perhaps fully sentient? In other words, are Cryptics and Honorspren smarter than windspren and rotspren because they are different in kind – humans vs. plants – or is it because the Cryptics and Honorspren are in Shadesmar and the windspren and rotspren are in the physical realm?
And, regarding fabrial use: can sentient spren make short, quick visits to the Physical realm, attracted by their various…attractions…and then pop back to Shadesmar unharmed? And if so, does fabrial creation interrupt those quick visits by trapping the spren in a gemstone, forcing them to stay in the physical realm while their consciousness quickly decays to the level of silly windspren or a mindless rotspren? If so, *that* would be a pretty horrible crime.
Peanut brittle in the Storm Cellar!
Merry Christmas, my friends! :)
Pretty awful, sure, to enslave sentient spren.
But why would that crime make the KR abondon their shards/spren?
There is something more going on here.
Perhaps using them wrongly/sinfully, was enticing Odium and they just decided to abondon them, rather than prepare to fight him.
Are we certain that the original fabrials worked the same way as the current ones? I always thought that the current fabrials were in “imitation” of the original ones, and sort of thought that the original fabrials were the equivalent of shardblades for some orders, like maybe their spren could form a fabrial as well as a blade, and since that knowledge has been lost, the current fabrials are just the best science can do to replicate what used to be. Doesn’t mean we won’t still wind up with a problem with enslaved spren, especially as more and more Radiants are formed with sentient spren that may have a problem with it.
My personal theory on the Recreance was always that the Knights Radiant foresaw something that made them abandon their orders and their spren. Mostly due to Syl’s absolute hatred of telling the future (she tells kaladin somewhere that it is evil) and since she usually isn’t possesed of the same Vorin issues with things that are evil that in reality aren’t, I always thought she knew of something that had been foretold that caused a huge problem in the past. That coupled with Dalinar’s vision in which there were surgebinders fighting for the other side, I thought maybe the Knights Radiant foresaw a case when they were either killing mostly each other, or where a large portion of them wound up on the wrong side, and decided it was better for everyone to disband. I think only some kind of selfless, if misguided, motive could have led to the Recreance. But maybe somebody can shoot this full of holes, I don’t get to spend much time on the forums, so I’m not sure what currently is floating around as theory and what has and hasn’t been shot down.
@STBLST, about Jasnah’s smokestone, do we know for sure that the stone itself (and/or a trapped spren) was the transforming factor?
I thought smokestone was a gemstone – which therefore should hold stormlight. We know stormlight is used for the Radiants’ version of soulcasting, and we know from shardplate that draining large amounts of stormlight rapidly from a gem causes it to crack/shatter. So it very well could have had nothing to do with a trapped spren/the gemstone itself being involved since we know Jasnah doesn’t actually use the fabrial itself to soulcast. She just pulled so much stormlight from it to do the casting that it broke.
I also think that is the best explanation for transformative cognitive entity that I’ve heard!
Shlee @69 – Thanks for the reminder! I meant to note that as well. You are absolutely correct: Jasnah does not use a fabrial to Soulcast. The thing she wears is merely a copy of one, which conveniently carries around three large-ish, fully-charged, properly cut gems which hold a LOT of Stormlight. It contains no trapped spren.
Now I wonder, though… While it clearly doesn’t apply in Jasnah’s case, do the ardents using Soulcasting fabrials have to be careful not to do too much and shatter a gem? Or does the presence of spren keep a stone from shattering? Do the Soulcaster fabrials have a particular gem that holds the spren? Or do all three gems hold different spren? Is that what gives the fabrial its power – a plurality of spren working together? So many questions…
Additional soulcasting question, since we’re asking – do the soulcasting properties of the various gemstones limit Radiant soulcasting, or is that only for fabrials?
@68 – Shlee, we don’t know, really, if ancient and modern fabrials are the same. One of the things I’ve wondered about in this thread is the meaning of the Ars Arcanum contrasting modern “scientific” fabrials with ancient “mystical” powers of the Knights Radiant. That may just be contrasting fabrials with Surgebinding, but may also indicate something different about the ancient fabrials.
Your suggestion is one possibility, but it doesn’t really work for me – based on Shallan and Jasnah, a spren becoming a fabrial shouldn’t be necessary for them. And for orders who don’t have the Transformation Surge, their spren having the ability to become soulcasting fabrials would seem like a cheat, to me.
But I do wonder if, before the Recreance, the human/spren alliance was strong enough that some spren who weren’t bonded with a knight still pitched in during Desolations, voluntarily powering fabrials. (That would be in contrast, theoretically, to modern fabrials where spren are forcibly ‘enslaved’.)
@ZenBossanova, re: the Recreance, I’ve no idea what caused it. I don’t think it had anything to do with fabrials, though. The Ars Arcanum indicates enslavement of spren for fabrials is a relatively new phenomenon.
My crazy theories about the Recreance have run a gambit:
1. The KR learned that the Heralds had lied and abandoned the Oathpact.
2. The KR learned that Odium killed Honor.
Those events seem big enough to create the kind of despair and disillusionment that could lead to turning the back on their Ideals.
But what would the act of protest from Dalinar’s vision in WOK have to do with either of those events? Perhaps:
3. They learned about lies/fabrications on the part of the Vorin church.
Or 4. Orders of KR turned on each other and killed each other.
Or 5. the KR were being used to fight other humans, since Desolation hadn’t come in a while, and they felt abused or that they’d abused their powers.
6. Or the enslavement of the Parshmen. From the epigraphs, it seems to me that the Bondsmiths shattered the proto-Parshmen’s link with the spren, forcibly putting them in dullform. Perhaps some of the knights protested this. Or protested enslaving rather than executing the creatures that remained.
Etc. I REALLY WANT TO KNOW.
Since we are on spren and their use again. I will point to my post from the Spoiler Review, Comment 953.
5. Someone suggested that a Knight Radiant’s Shardplate is formed by associated “dumb” spren: e.g. a Windrunner’s Plate is formed by windspren, etc. Is there any truth to this idea?
RAFO
7. Was the use of captive spren in fabrials a factor in the Recreance?
Oath Gate was a Fabrial. – Peter The use of spren in fabrials was “tangentially” a factor in the Recreance. WoB in his Reading panel Q&A.
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/03/book-review-words-of-radiance-spoiler-brandon-sanderson
So even at the height of KR power, fabrials were being used. They are just not the same as the fabrial of modern Roshar.
@70:
My guess is yes. Otherwise the HP would not be so keen on always getting more emerald gem hearts to feed the masses. So either the stones break after too much use, or somehow are left without the ability to recharge with Stormlight.
If the larger stones could be used forever, once found, one or two would be good enough for a lifetime.
On the other hand they could always be wanting more because he with the most toys wins.
Or the armies growth outpaces the ability to produce grain. In that case HP Sabril (sp?) is the smartest of them all for establishing farms.
Off Topic: how many have trained their spellcheck to not freak out at Cosmere words?
Braid_Tug – Good reminders, there, a couple of which I MUST expand on.
I’d forgotten that they keep needing gemhearts for the purpose of feeding people. In that case, it’s a fair bet that the Soulcasting fabrials, whether they use captive spren or not, do not use the stones of the fabrial to trap them. Either the whole contraption is a spren, like the Shardblades, or they are trapped in a different way than the modern fabrials. Hmm. I may have to work this into a proper question to ask Brandon next week.
If it weren’t for the complete chaos wreaked by the Everstorm and untimely Highstorm, resulting in the evacuation of the warcamps to Urithiru, Sebarial would have been in an even more powerful position by his ability to provide food that didn’t rely on the ardents, Soulcasters, and gemhearts. I’m actually a little disappointed for his sake. Well, except that they’re really going to need food in Urithiru, and his may be the most accessible they’ll have, so it might still be a good thing. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what the Parshendi get up to.
And… yes, my spellcheck no longer winces at most of the Cosmere words. :)
I do not find that the issue of spren and fabrials is totally resolved. While a Surgebinder like Jasnah can soulcast without a fabrial by entering Shadesmar and converting the appropriate representation sphere, she also uses a fabrial for such purposes. The example that I cited of Jasnah Soulcasting a fallen massive stone to smoke involved the use and breaking of a smokestone gem. A smokestone is associated with its namesake and produces smoke when used in a fabrial. Is this just a charade involving the smokestone glowing intensly and then shattering in the course of the stone conversion? Or is the smokestone somehow being used for the conversion, whether or not it has a trapped spren? I also have a recollection that Jasnah used the ruby and diamond gems in her fabrial in turning the would-be assailants into fire and crystal, respectively – i.e., their fabrial product. If correct, the above could indicate that Jasnah had a ‘real’ fabrial which she used for Soulcasting – in addition to her innate abilities in that area. This could account for the fact that those assailants were transformed despite the presumed unwillingness of their representations in the Cognitive realm to agree to their demise.
STBLST @75 – Jasnah uses the Stormlight stored in those gems to power her Soulcasting, because (like any other Radiant) the use of her powers requires Stormlight. In the most basic sense, she merely uses the fake fabrial to hold the gems which hold the Stormlight. From an equally practical but solely cultural perspective, she uses the fake fabrial to make it look like she’s using a fabrial, because she doesn’t dare (at this point) let anyone know that she can Soulcast without a fabrial.
The fact that the army constantly needs new gems could also mean, that the gems do indeed break after a certain number/intensity of uses – which would incidentally mean, that the trapped (&enslaved) spren might be freed after a certain period which would make it slightly less offensive.
All this doesn’t explain the fact that the ones using the soulcasters get stone-like as Adolin describes them later. Why would they?
There must be a difference between soulcasters and “mere” fabrials (the one’s Navani constructs), which work independetly from human will.
@76 Wetlandernw, you are restating your position that Jasnah’s fabrial is fake and only serves as a source of stormlight to power her innate transformation ability. The problem that I see with this approach is that all the gemstones in Jasnah’s allegedly fake fabrial become bright, and the smokestone particularly bright, when Jasnah is in the process of Soulcasting the fallen stone to smoke. If Jasnah is merely using the gemstones as a source of stormlight, why would they become brighter and what is the source of the light that is being transmitted to the gems? One answer is that Jasnah had been slowly draining the gem light prior to her performance, she is now returning some of that light to the stones at a high rate. That is why they become visibly brighter. Then, the more intense brightness of the smokestone is the result of a deliberate misdirection by Jasnah – i.e., making it seem that the smokestone was what effected the smoke transformation. All of this is reminiscent of a theatrical magician rather than a serious scholar – not to mention the loss due to breakage of a valuable gem. Nor does the fake fabrial thesis account for transformation of those miscreants to fire and crystal when their representations in the Cognitive realm would hardly have agreed to their demise.
I’m guessing about how she uses the fake, but I’m not guessing that it is a fake. She Soulcast the jam and the bread without even knowing that the “fabrial” she was wearing was non-functional; Jasnah was completely unaware at the time that Shallan had stolen her “fabrial” and replaced it with the real-but-broken fabrial retrieved from Lin Davar’s pocket. Once Shallan confronts Jasnah with the evidence that she wasn’t using a fabrial at all, she drops the pretense (with Shallan only, of course). She even goes so far as to admit it straight up, a couple of chapters later:
(bold emphasis mine; italics Brandon’s)
Jasnah appears to use the stones in her Soulcasting, but the “fabrial” is a complete and utter fake, and she does not need it to Soulcast.
As to the relationship between the gems and the product of the Soulcasting, there are at least two possiblities. The major ones I see are:
a) It’s just easier to use the Stormlight from a particular gem to Soulcast something into the Essence related to that gem.
b) Jasnah has practiced intensively to make sure that, even under close observation by those familiar with fabrials, her results will look like she’s using a fabrial.
It could be a combination of the two, or it could be something else entirely – but either of those would readily explain why the thugs were transformed to fire (ruby), crystal (diamond), and smoke (smokestone).
Brandon has said in the past that while for most Surgebinding it doesn’t matter what kind of polestone the Stormlight was stored in, it does make a difference in Soulcasting.
So yeah, Jasnah actually needed the garnet when she wanted to Soulcast Shallan’s blood.
WeiryWriter @80 – Cool! So it matters for a person as well as for a fabrial…
Do you know if he’s said anything about the difference between modern fabrials (like the ones Navani is inventing) and the ancient ones like the Soulcasters? Anything about whether the old ones use trapped spren somehow? Or why they still work when you replace the gemstones?
Addendum to my @30…
A Cultivation-is-not-dead reference can be found in the link posted by WeiryWriter @80.
Aside: note that Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved. We have yet to consider how badly she was hurt emotionally by his death, and to what end. It doesn’t appear that she jumped to the darkside, but perhaps her reclusiveness (to heal?) was an outcome.
WeiryWriter – I was looking at the Coppermind Wiki and noticed something that needs updating – a minor supposition that has been proven wrong by WoR. What’s the best way to let y’all know about things like that? (It’s not really relevant to this thread or anything, just something that I noticed while looking for something else.)
@Wetlandernw To my knowledge no one has asked Brandon about it. Or at least he’s RAFO’d it if they have. I don’t remember anyone asking it though. It may be worth asking, but it feels like something Brandon wouldn’t want to talk about yet.
As for the wiki, the /best/ way is to just edit the page yourself. Every edit does get checked, so don’t worry about knowing all the formatting stuff. (Plus we could always use more editors) Or there is a Coppermind sub-forum over on 17s you can post in about it.
What specifically is the thing you noticed? Unfortunately there is a lot of stuff the still needs to be updated with WoR stuff, and WoK stuff, and Mistborn stuff, and everything else…
WeiryWriter @84 – I wonder if Brandon knows just how much time we spend figuring out how to word a question to get a little bit of an answer instead of a RAFO. He probably does, come to think of it! And chuckles gleefully.
The bit I noticed yesterday in the wiki was the left-over-from-TWoK assumption that Elhokar probably inherited his Shards from Gavilar. Back in chapter 16, though, it specifically says that Gavilar’s Blade is used for training, although Elhokar “has hinted that someday, he might bestow his father’s Blade upon a worthy warrior.” It’s a minor thing; just something I noticed in passing. I’ll try to get in the habit of noting things and updating them when I can get the right wording worked out; I just wasn’t sure how y’all felt about having random strangers meddling with the content! :)
Ways @15: Good point. Sloppy thinking on my part.
Xaladin @26: Yep. In two years, between my mother’s brithday and mine, my parents and sisters and I will all be prime ages simultaneously (for probably the last time, as my parents would be 101 the next time it would happen). We used to celebrate by going out for prime rib, a tradition I intend to continue.
The Firefight Tour schedule has, finally, been posted! (towards the bottom of the page, after the article)
@Wetlandernw We actually love it when random strangers contibute, it’s one of the best things about the wiki format. There is just way to much to do to not be grateful for every bit of help.
@87: Thanks for the link.
Houston! Again! The night before my baby shower. :-(
@peter, when will he show Dallas some love again?
Well Texas is luckier of than some states. If I was still living in OKC, Houston would remian the closest tour date.
Bahahaha! Well, that answers that question…
So he’ll be here on both the 6th and the 7th. I’m going to the one on the 6th, because I much prefer the U District to downtown, even if the 7th would be a little easier for me.
Anyone else planning to be there? I’ll be going as a master-servant again. Of course. :)
Alice or Carl, are you going to be soliciting questions for folks to ask Brandon at the Firelight signings?
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Andrew @90 – Absolutely! If you have anything you want asked, by all means post it here. I’m collecting. :) I don’t guarantee I’ll ask everything, but I’ll do what I can.
I will be attending the 1/6/15 signing, so I can collect questions up until sometime Tuesday. There are lots of other signings, though, with lots of people going, so we should be able to ask lots of stuff before the tour is over. Lotsa lots!
Wetlandernw @91 (or anybody else who will attend one of the Firelight signings]. I hope to be at the Philly signing on January 27. I do have one or two questions I will ask. But here are some others that I will not have the time to ask.
a) Do Cryptics have the same general dislike of Honorspren as Syl (and other Honorspren) have towards Cryptics?
b) Prior to becoming pregnant, did Aesudan spend most of her time at the Shattered Plains?
c) In addition to the 2 abilities given by each Surge, does a Knight Radiant Order have a 3rd “blended” ability: the interaction of its 2 given Surges? For example, Lightweavers have the Surge of Lightweaving and Soulcasting. Yet another order can Soulcast and a different Order can Lightweave? Is it the blending of the Lightweaving and Soulcasting what distinguishes what the Lightweavers can do from those other Kinghts who can Soulcast and Lightweave, respectively?(first postulated by Vladz on tor.com re-read of WoR).
d) Has Brandon has written out the Diagram, War of Radiance (the book that Shallan reads from)? If so, will he release some of these “in-story books” after the end of the 2nd 5 book series?
e) How much time elapses between the beginning of the main part of the story of WoK (i.e. the non-flashback scenes) and the end?
(The reason I would like to know the answer to this question is there may be a timing discrepency. The flashback scenes in WoR are based on a time period starting 6 years between the start of the main storyline in WoR. However, 6 years is the time between the death of Gavilar and the start of WoK. The flashbacks on WoR are either x years or x.5 years from the time period of the main story.)
g) Did Pattern say or do anything to Relis when Relis ran over to strike at Renarin? Relis was about to strike Renarin when he had dismissed his Blade.
(I had originally thought that Pattern might have done/said something to Relis that caused him to hesitate from striking Renarin. Further, that it was whatever Pattern said/did that casued Relis to hear the spren screaming when Kaladin used a hand clap to stop the Blade. However, IIRC, somebody (Peter?) said that Relis just heard the spren sceaming because he was so close. I am not so sure since Relis “backed away, raising his hands to his head. “What is it? What is it! No, I didn’t kill you!” (WoR, pg. 672 – emphasis added))
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
From the epigraphs, it seems to me that the Bondsmiths shattered the
proto-Parshmen’s link with the spren, forcibly putting them in dullform.
I thought the Parshendi chose to use dullform to escape their “gods”.
Birgit @93 – yes, that’s true. I was referring not to the Parshendi, but to their relatives the Parshmen. Who, I should have said, aren’t *actually* in dullform, just something very like it – which the Parshendi referred to as ‘slaveform’, though it’s not a real form, but rather the lack of a form and the lack of a spren bond.
My hunch (again, based on the epigraphs), is that the the Bondsmiths forcibly shattered the bond between Odium-spren and defeated Voidbringers, converting them into Parshmen…i.e., Listeners who no longer have a bond with *any* spren.
It’s based on the epigraph to chapter 58: “”So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.”
@Wetlandernw FYI Shardlet is also going to tomorrow’s Seattle signing (also there’s a thread about it here with a ton of possible questions).
And I just thought of a few questions that I should probably add…
Cool! I’ve got a fair list of questions coming together; don’t know how many of them I’ll actually ask, but I’ve got them. :)
“Has the Song become so adulterated over time that it conveys inaccurate ideas? ”
One of the unmade changes spren [Sja-anat IIRC, it was the vision inthe purelake.]
The Listeners bond to spren to assume forms.
And from a recent WoB. Some spren have been put into a state that Odium can insert himself into to use them as glove puppets the same way Ruin used people with Hemalurgic spikes.
So the forms do not have to be all one thing or another. They could have been natural and as Sja-anat corrupts the spren the Listners bond to have become instruments of Odium’s control.
Which would explain all the warnings about forms involving red eyed spren, since that seems to be a distinguishing mark for Odium tainted spren.
Mediation form used to be for peace and then when Odium corrupted the Spren became a form of deceit.
Very interesting, Adam
Do you have that exact quote from Brandon? I am curious because sometimes he is very careful in exactly how he words things. I just wanted to see his quote for myself.
Okay, the signing was awesome, and I’m wiped. I’ll post the questions I asked and got answered tomorrow, and somewhere along the line I’ll listen to all the audio and see what else was asked & answered. I heard most of it, but I certainly don’t remember it all.
Yay! Thanks, Wet!
Also: got the hunny!
You’re welcome… for both. ;)
Actually, if y’all don’t mind, I’ll finish tomorrow’s reread first, and then transcribe the signing q/a stuff. I’m not sure I’ve got enough brainpower left to do both in one day.
If you do mind, well, I’m sorry. But I’m going to do it anyway. Thhhbbt.
Yes, Alice, finish you paying gig first. Well, at least I hope it a paying gig, not just for the love of it. :-)
Looking forward to reading both official post and the Q&A.
@chris, congrats! It’s been awhile since this re-read has seen a hunny.
@wetlander If you don’t have them time I’d me more than willing to transcribe it for you. I’ve gotten a lot of practice at it over on 17S.
Adam @97
As Zen @98 said: Interesting! I’d also appreciate a link to the WoB you mention.
Ok the WoB on Odium control was the Orem Signing on the 6th Dec
Here’s the relevant part
Unfortunately I don’t know of an unparaphrased version.
Thanks.
I don’t know if anyone will notice this comment, but I just read WOR for the first time. It’s Oct. 1, 2018. And we’re deep in the Brett Kavanaugh debacle.
Dalinor’s reaction to Kaladin’s accusation, and then his later brush off, because of witnesses who support Amaram – reading these moments was like a punch in the gut. Here it is, striped of gender issues. Allowed to shine in all its ugliness as, not a problem of sex, but of power and privilege. And the ability to use people as things, free from fear of reprisal or accusation.
Amaram is to be believed. He’s Dal’s buddy. Dal knows he could never do anything so horrible. He’s concerned, but more worried about how Kal could have gotten this silly idea in his head. Surely, he’s confused Am for someone else? Maybe trauma messed with his memories. And he’s got witnesses who back Am up. Case closed.
Yes. Let’s make Amaram the new head of the Radiants. Let’s give this man even more power and honor. Let’s make him the one to carry the Ideals of Life, Journey, and Strength.
And still, people ask, “Why does no one come forward? Why does no one testify?”