Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Carl endured the storm by waxing poetic, or reading poetry, or both. Beowulf FTW! This week, we’ll watch the aftermath of the storm with Kaladin and the Kholins.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 33: Burdens
Point of View:Kaladin, Adolin
Setting: the Pinnacle
Symbology: Spears, Nalan, Jezrien
IN WHICH Kaladin falls with the rain and survives a fall of at least a hundred feet; is awed by Szeth’s control of the powers they both have; is horrified at the loss of his hand, and the consequent loss of everything he’s ever learned to be. Szeth is surprised at Kaladin’s survival; as he considers it, Kaladin heals his own hand; Szeth is shocked and horror-stricken at the implication, and flees the scene; Kaladin returns, exhausted, to the Pinnacle; the Kholins are all alive, and uninjured except for Dalinar’s and Adolin’s wounds from the fight; Kaladin can’t bring himself to tell Dalinar why he’s alive in front of Elhokar and Adolin; Adolin is troubled by Kaladin’s behavior and lack of wounds; a new Stormwatch glyph is discovered; Beld is dead; Syl is sure Kaladin can do what Szeth does, with practice; she is also sure there is something different about Szeth’s Blade, but she doesn’t know what; Hobber is discovered alive, but with both legs soul-severed by Szeth’s Blade.
Quote of the Week:
The assassin scrambled backward, eyes as wide as if Kaladin had turned into a chasmfiend. “They told me I was a liar!” the assassin screamed. “They told me I was wrong! Szeth-son-son-Vallano… Truthless. They named me Truthless!”
There are many wonderful things I could quote from this chapter, but this one still hits me the hardest. This is the moment we discover why Szeth is the Assassin: he had, apparently, claimed that the Radiants were returning — though we don’t know the details of his original claim – was told he was a liar, and was named Truthless for his heresy. I think this is the first time I truly pitied Szeth. He’s spent the past seven years living a nightmare punishment for his “false” claim. Now he finds out that his claim was true, and those who named him Truthless were false, and all the havoc he’s wreaked was completely unjustified. His whole foundation has just been shattered.
I’m also in awe of how few words it took to answer almost all my burning questions about Truthless. Two short sentences here, and two short sentences from TWoK (“. . . His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did.”) and presto – we have Answers.
Commentary: Welp. This was a scene I hadn’t expected to find so early in the book – we’re not even at the end of Part 2, and Kaladin has barely made baby steps in learning his powers! I guess it was enough, in a way, because the fact that he had any powers at all totally freaked Szeth out and sent him off to find out what in Damnation was going on.
But here we are, watching Kaladin and Szeth already, nowhere near halfway through the book – and Szeth only kills one person before he wigs out and flies away. One too many, but still – only one, and that not the one he was sent for. He was supposed to be brutal, and though they mounted a somewhat better defense than he’d expected, I have no doubt that he’d have gone back up and finished the job, had Kaladin not completely blown his mind by demonstrating an unmistakable Surgebinding.
Harking back to some of the discussion of the last couple weeks, and the changes made to the ending of the book, I have to address something here that may be significant.
A moment of surprise. A moment to live. Perhaps… Kaladin felt the Light working , the tempest within straining and pushing. He gritted his teeth and heaved somehow. The color returned to his hand, and feeling— cold pain— suddenly flooded his arm, hand, fingers. Light began to stream from his hand.
“No…” the assassin said. “No!”
In last week’s comments, I pointed out the parallel of each man having his arm sliced through with the other’s Blade in these two fights. Now I want to point out the difference, and Brandon’s statement that “dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can.” From the Prologue to TWoK:
Szeth danced out of range as the Shardbearer swung in anger, trying to cut at Szeth’s knees. The tempest within Szeth gave him many advantages – including the ability to quickly recover from small wounds. But it would not restore limbs killed by a Shardblade.
Kaladin was able to heal a soul-severed arm, and Szeth did not know that could be done at all – or rather, he knew (presumably from the experience of others, not his own) that it could not be done. Not with an Honorblade, anyway. I’m no longer quite sure that this was a reason for the changes, but as a parallel, it’s pretty cool.
On reflection, I wonder if there is another implication. Here’s the whole paragraph from Brandon’s blog:
The question this raises is about Szeth being stabbed by a Shardblade, then being resuscitated. I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can. I’m going to have to work this into a later book, though I think it’s something we can sacrifice here for the stronger scene of character for Kaladin and Szeth.
Might there be another parallel between the death and resuscitation of Jasnah and Szeth? Jasnah was stabbed through the heart, and should have been dead, but her living Blade was able to heal her; Szeth (in the original) was cut through the spinal column with a Blade, and was… just… dead. He was only not-dead by the intervention of a Herald with a Regrowth fabrial. Is the difference between how they died, or how they were saved?
Or, you know, I’m totally off base with all of this… *sigh*
Back to the chapter at hand. I was SO SO SO frustrated by this:
I am a Surgebinder, Kaladin thought as Dalinar looked over at him. I used Stormlight. He wanted to say the words, but they wouldn’t come out. Not in front of Elhokar and Adolin.
Storms. I’m a coward.
Yes, Kaladin. Yes, you are. Right here, in this moment, you totally are. By all the food in the Tranquiline Halls, this is the time to tell them. They’ve just seen you do something completely impossible; tell them the truth now, and they’d believe you. They’d be grateful, and awestruck, and delighted, and you would never have to hide it again. Right here, in this small group of (reasonably) trustworthy leaders, you coul make things so much simpler for everyone. But no – you’re afraid they could and would somehow take it from you, so you just pretend it was sheer dumb luck. Chicken.
Adolin, of course, gets even more suspicious (yes, Kaladin, this will create more problems between the two of you), because he was sure he saw Kaladin’s arm cut by the assassin’s blade. Pile that on top of the irritation at Kaladin’s failure to be appropriately subordinate in his behavior, and the incredibly weird fact that he stood firmly with the Kholins against a Shardbearing assassin, and you get a very frustrated and confused Adolin. And he’s now extra wary of Kaladin, even as he tries not to be as paranoid as the king.
Also: as the only Shardbearer of the three facing the assassin, Adolin got stuck to the ceiling, while Dalinar did that awesome Lastclap and Kaladin tackled the assassin out through the hole in the wall. How embarrassing is that? I’m not sure whether to laugh or sympathize.
Hobber. I haz a sad.
Stormwatch:
“Thirty-eight days,” Renarin read. “The end of all nations.”
Twenty-four days have passed since the first countdown writing was discovered. Considering the apparent lack of progress, that’s got to be a bit disturbing for Dalinar and company. I’m taking it as a given that with Renarin’s already-formed bond (his Shardblade screams at him from the get-go) and his eventual revelation as a Truthwatcher, Renarin is actually the one who has done the glyph-writing. Anyone else have thoughts on that?
Sprenspotting: Syl discovers that she knows several new things in this chapter – that Kaladin can heal himself from a Shardblade-severed arm; that he is not ready for more Words, but that with practice he could do all the things Szeth does; and that there’s something wrong with the amount of Light Szeth consumes when he uses his Blade. She approves of Beld’s willingness to die protecting, and of all the bridgemen’s choice to protect. She also seriously disapproves of Kaladin’s failure to acknowledge that it was her warning he heeded, and that he is a developing Surgebinder. (So do I.)
Most significantly, she confirms that Szeth is using Windrunner powers, but that he has no honorspren. We knew that already (I think she said it in the last chapter?) but she is absolutely positive, here. So… a spren spotted by its unspottedness, I guess.
(Incidentally, I saw a fascinating theory proposed by one of the beta readers at this stage. It’s since been proven wrong, of course, but at the time it fit. The idea was that Szeth had actually been a Windrunner, and then broke his oath, killing his spren, just as the Stormfather said, and that breaking was what made him Truthless. We didn’t know where Blades came from at the time, but it’s even better since the next step would be “and that’s where he got his Blade.” Which… would be a truly horrible punishment, to have to carry the Blade you yourself had killed, and do with it whatever was demanded by your owner, no matter how contrary to its nature. It’s not what happened, of course, but it’s a really cool theory.)
Heraldic Symbolism: Nalan and Jezrien, eh? Jezrien is pretty obvious – with all that chatter about protecting, plus both Kaladin and Szeth using the Windrunner skillset, and Kaladin healing himself with Stormlight, Jezrien pretty much had to be here. I’d have expected Vedel rather than Nalan, I think, given the healing, but Nalan it is. For Szeth and his future connection? For the false judgement of “Truthless” against him? I think I’ll go with that last one.
Just Sayin’: “By the Almighty’s tenth name.” I like this one. I’m guessing that the tenth name is the holiest, right? And the way Dalinar says it, I’m thinking it’s not the tiniest bit of profanity involved. Just… for what that’s worth.
Next week, Carl will check out the storm’s aftermath in the caravan with Shallan and Tyn, and catch up on all the latest gossip from the more civilized lands back west. Stay tuned!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She enjoys literature, music, science, and math; she spends her time reading, writing, doing laundry, driving children to and from school, and homeschooling. She’s also going to be serving on staff at Sasquan/Worldcon this summer, and would dearly love to see you there.
I am pretty sure the Nalan connection is Windrunner vs (future) Skybreaker.
This was a fun chapter and a frustrating chapter all at the same time. Kaladin chasing off the Assassin in White just with the fact of his existence – awesome. Refusing to admit it to anyone – frustrating. But this early in the book I’m not surprised by frustrating things. It’s just part of the build up.
Nick31 @2 – Yes, it is. I should probably insert the occasional disclaimer that my frustration is part of the love I have for these books. If the characters weren’t so absolutely human in all their lovable and frustrating attributes, the books wouldn’t be worth the read. I adore having characters that can make me laugh and cry, make me angry and ecstatic, make me roll my eyes and fistpump in delight. So when I get frustrated and want to reach into the book and slap Kaladin, it’s totally because he’s so stinking realistic. :)
According to the Coppermind, “The Almighty is said to have ten names, the last being the most holy. … It is likely this tenth name is the same as the name only the ardents may use. . . . ‘He had another name, allowed to pass only the lips of ardents. Elithanathile. He Who Transforms.’ — Shallan’s thoughts.”
Shallan swears twice by the tenth name: once when she’s promising Kaladin that she means no harm to the Kohlins, and once when she swears to Navani that Jasnah can soulcast. Kaladin also swears by it when he promises his parents that he’ll bring Tien home.
This is what has bothered me for several rereads now. In my opinion it is an error.
From last chapter we know Renarin has finished bonding his sword.
From Adolin’s later comment (chapter 35) we learn “A master of the Blade learned to do more with the bond. He learned to command it to remain in place after being dropped.”
But Renarin doesn’t seem awfully concentrated on keeping it material, “discarded” as the sword is. So, why didn’t Renarin’s Shardblade vanish?
And to keep touching it would mean he’d hear it screaming…
If Lopen can grow back an arm, and if Kaladin can self-heal his arm, then perhaps Hobber can be healed as well.
@6 Some Radiants can heal others; we saw this in Dalinar’s vision in WOK, when he saw the radiants fight the Midnight Essence. So either Hobber will be able to heal himself after gaining Radiant/Squire powers, or one of the other characters from a healing Order could heal him (Lift?)
Let me summarize re Shardblades:
we have 3 different Shardblades: Honorblade, Alive-spren Shardblade and Broken-bond Shardblade.
All seem to kill by the same way: fist killing the soul (making a limb grey), then cutting flesh. If the first cut is through something vital (heart, spine), the person/animal dies instantly with burned out eyes.
Now to the healing:
Bearers of Honorblades can’t heal Shardblade wounds (if Szeth is right), bearers of Broken-bond-spren coudn’t do it (if I understand Brandon’s statement correctly), while the spren-bonded (proto) Radiants can.
We haven’t seen anything yet which would prove the spren-bond would let you survive a killing wound inflicted by a Shardblade, though we know they (Jasnah) can from a seemingly killing blow inflicted by a not-Shardblade weapon.
But what I don’t understand about Brandon’s statement: he says he’s sorry to lose the scene because of the mentioned point about dead Shardblades, but neighter in that scene (Szeth and Kaladin) are using a dead-spren blade.
Any mistakes?
What a chapter, full of conflicting feels.
FWIW, having read the whole story, I’ve come to the conclusion I’m fine with Kaladin not admitting what he is here – not just because it’s in character because of Adolin and Elkohar being there, but because after what Sezth did he really doesn’t have the confidence in himself. It’s not just that it’s realistic for him to be hesitant here – I think revealing he was a Knight Radiant here would cause just as many issues, if not more, down the line.
Plus, there’s no way Kaladin would kiss Adolin into not being awkward around him as a Knight Radiant.
…
Not that it isn’t an amusing thought.
Edit: @8 – My initial thought was that it was because Szeth was killed with a live spren Blade that he could be revived at all, but if we consider it being that having the spren allows them to heal…maybe it’s a sign that Szeth is on the road to being a Radiant? He’s most certainly broken, and we know he has a book so…
Wetlandernw, I agree about Kaladin. Despite his flaws he is my favorite character in the books. I had originally thought to call myself Kaladinfan when I started commenting late in the WOK reread, but opted instead for the more mysterious STBLST (to indicate, ‘stormblessed’). The discussion about dead and live shardblades has set me thinking. Why do ostensibly inanimate objects exhibit magical abilities (can cut through anything and extract souls) and confer other magical abilities to their bearers (honorblades conferring Windrunner abilities)? It is because they contain souls or soul aspects. The ‘ordinary’ bonded shardblades retain the soul aspects of the associated dead spren, while the honorblades retain the soul aspects and powers of the Heralds who once wielded them. It seems that when the Heralds abandoned their oath and blades, they unwittingly also transferred much of their souls to those blades. That’s why the Heralds that we have encountered are parodies of their former selves. That also accounts for the difference between such soul shardblades and the actual spren. The latter have the ability to reverse the soul stealing abilities of the former. Nalan’s ability to revivify the mangled remains of Szeth is more mysterious. He is a shadow of his former self, but retains special abilities or is able to fabricate a unique Fabrial.
Is there a list of the Almighty’s names? Just wondering…
Not totally relevent, but I can’t help but notice the similarities between the description of Kaladin’s arm and the Lifeless in Warbreaker. Not sure what to make of this, but thought the brilliant minds on this site might have some insights. (if there are any)
STBLST @10. I like your theory. It was the Honroblades themselves that were the focal point of the Oathpact that the Heralds swore. I had always assumed that the Honorblade was separate and distinct from the Oaths the Heralds swore. After agreeing to take up the mantle of the Heralds for the benefit of Rosharian-kind, Honor (and maybe Cultivation) imbuded some of its respective power into these special Blades to help the Hearlds fight the Desolations.
Thereafter, spren saw the effects of the Honorblade and sought to replicate them through the bonding of selected individuals on Roshar. At some point, the Heralds and/or the spren themselves came across the concept of tying the bonding process to swearing the Oaths.
If, on the other hand the Oaths are what give the power to the Honorblade, the Heralds’ breaking of their Oaths impacted who they are within their soul. (Possibly from being tied to the Oaths for millenia.) Oathless, the Hearlds are now are corrupted version of their former selves. Under such a theory, it should be possible that if the Heralds reclaim their Honorblade and reswear the Oath, their powers and original personalities will return.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
I have to give this to the new Szeth ending – in the original version his eyes being burned out should have meant that his brain was cooked too, no? I mean, eyes burn from the inside out, i.e. through their connection to the brain, right? So, Nalan’s explanation as to how and why he had been able to heal Szeth never really fit.
OTOH, the WoBs as to how Szeth’s almost-death was supposed to show the difference between live and dead shardblades, or that it better suited the character of Kaladin, who had killed hundreds of nameless foes on the battlefields, to divert his blow when fighting a notorious mass-murderer, just don’t make any kind of sense to me. YMMV.
I have to say that I still have zero sympathy with Szeth, as even though he believed himself Truthless, he was following the horrific rules and committing all the murders for a completely selfish reason – because he was afraid of oblivion after death. Which is a really crappy justification for his many terrible crimes, IMHO.
Wetlandernw
I thought it was 100% confirmed that it was Renarin who wrote all the storm glyphs at the end of the book when he’s off in the corner muttering and scribbling.
hihosilver @15 – I thought so too, but I believe there are people still arguing that he couldn’t have done all of them. :)
Isilel @14 – I can certainly see some ways where I think this ending works a lot better, but like you, I really don’t understand Brandon’s explanation at all in context. The best I can get from his blog almost contradicts some of the ways I think the ending works better.
::shrug::
I feel a little better knowing that Peter doesn’t understand it either, anyway! :)
Can someone please enlighten me on the details, and maybe even the reasoning, behind this “change to the ending” that I keep hearing about regarding Seth? I’ve only read the version of the book that was released upon its initial release date, and haven’t been keeping up with Brandon’s blog in awhile. Thanks.
@17: The changes Brandon recently made to Words of Radiance can be found at post 7 in the following thread:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23702-brandon-tweaking-words-of-radiance/
The reasons can be found here (at the end of the page):
http://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/
Stormblessed @10: Like Sauron and the Ring, but less evil?
So there are living (spren) Shardblades and dead (spren) Shardblades.
Are there “living” and “dead” Honorblades based on the Oathpact?
@5: I have been wondering the same thing especially since Renarin does not seem to be doing very well in his training. If discarding the Blade is so hard, how come he does it without the blink of an eye? Especially him who hates his Blade and hears it scream…
@9: Szeth having a flashack book does not mean he will become a Radiant, unless I missed an important WoB on the subject. Note a flashback is not the same as being the major KR of a book…. It just happened both Kaladin and Shallan were both the flashback and the major KR of their book…. Brandon stated other books would not follow this pattern.
Given the fact he committed suicide and he was given Nightblood, I think it unlikely he would get a spren bond… but it may just be me wishfully hoping it would be the case. Of all characters, Szeth is the last one I want to see made Radiant. The evil he has done is too great for such a redemption, in my mind that is. I do not care how broken he is, being broken hardly is the only criteria to become a knight.
As for the rest, I do not fault Kaladin for not telling. I was annoyed with him for keeping it a secret at the time, but I understand why. I too would not have like to spill my depeest secret in front of an individual I do not respect (Elhokar) and one I hate (Adolin).
As for Adolin, I have always wondered what it is he saw…. He was just a few feet away, so he must have seen the whole thing and yet he talks as if his recollection of the events was not so clear. Last day, he complains about a headache. I am the only who wonders if Adolin has not taken one too many hits on the head by the end of WoR?
As for Szeth going to Adolin first… Well from his perspective, he was the greater foe: he had a shardblade. His goal was to kill Dalinar, Kaladin did not seem like much, so he stuck Adolin to the celling right away to disarm him.
19. Gepeto
Did Brandon say he may not follow that pattern, or he would not follow that pattern?
@14, 16: You mean how Kaladin suddenly won’t kill Szeth and that seems out of character? Because that has been bugging me too. I will assume for the present that Kaladin’s entire third oath redemptive experience is a big enough change to warrant his hesitation in killing Szeth, or at least a big enough catalyst for a change which will be developed later in the story. I assume he will redefine (again) when/if it is possible to kill to protect, etc.
@19: If my memory serves me right, he said he would not follow this pattern. I am currently looking for the appropriate WoB, but I am having a hard time finding it.
Thinking about 10. STBLST’s theory,
It was when the KR walked away from their blades that the oaths were broken. Where did they get this idea? Was the way the Heralds broke their oath, was by deserting their blades?
For that matter, why are the Heralds still alive? Are they splinters, or did Honor put a bit of himself in each Herald and Blade?
Here. I think it is our own Alice who posted this a while back, so she may be best placed to talk about the validity of this statement or its interpretation.
“Well each one is going to cover a flashback sequence for one of the characters and each one will focus on a different order of the Knights Radiant. And that’s not always the same, like the flashbacks for the first one were Kaladin and it was also Windrunners, but we won’t always have them be the exact same.”
There is little wiggle room in this statement. He blalantly says the pattern found in the first two books won’t repeat itself for all books… I read it quite litterally.
If I am right, it thus mean Szeth (or Eshonai) being planned as a flashback character does not imply he will be a Radiant or he will be the major player in a book as Kaladin/Shallan were. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t, but I would not use the fact he is supposed to have a flashback as as solid proof argument he will become a major KR.
For my part, I feel like Isilel at @14: I have little sympathy for Szeth. I do mind him as an antagonist, but I have no desire to see him join the crew of Radiants (I am also unable to come up with a plausible denouement where Dalinar is able to forgive Szeth and welcome him in the ranks of the Radiants). I would rather he remained a dark grey character, never really good, but never really bad either. Also, I did not enjoy any of his viewpoints. He is simply not a character I want/wish to read about. This could change, though, we never know with Brandon, but as of now, this is how I feel about him.
I’m pretty sure Brandon doesn’t intend the “main POV character = flashback character = KR Order” pattern of the first two books to continue all the way through. For one thing, he specifically said so. For another, he’s repeatedly told us that it’s quite possible the flashback character might be dead already. (Not in the flashbacks, but in the main story line.) For another, I’m pretty sure Taln isn’t going to become a Knight Radiant; he’s already a Herald. I’m not convinced Navani is going to become a KR, and Eshonai & Szeth are questionable IMO. So… yeah, don’t assume that two books sets an unchangeable pattern.
@25: I am happier since you have posted this. Some of the flashback announced did not make sense if contrived within the first two books pattern such as Taln and Ash. I have read theories Taln was not Taln,but a regular Stoneward, he has to be since he has a flashback and the pattern called for it. I have read others Ash will forsake being the Herald of the Lightweaver to become our main Dustbringer character (who will that one be, I truly wonder now Adolin is out of the list) as we did not have one in the flashback characters…………………
Szeth and Eshonai being named as flashback also forced us to see them as Radiants. Considering the fact Brandon will not tell us who will become a Radiant and who won’t, it seemed giving out a list of flashback characters = KR main member was discordant.
I know Sanderson had said he wouldn’t follow the pattern, but that doesn’t mean necessarily the next one would break it or that it even informs us about whether they are a Knight Radiant or not. The flashback character may be a KR of a different order than the one a book focuses on, for example. I was merely showing how, if we go from the logic of spren-bonded people being able to heal shardblade injuries, then theoretically Szeth could maybe be getting one. It’s not proof, no, but I didn’t say as such – it was just something that gave Szeth more a chance of becoming a KR, since we’ll get to see more of him so more chance we could see the kind of character development that attracts spren.
FWIW, even without the Words of Brandon about it, I wouldn’t assume he’d set himself a rigid pattern and follow it to the end: Sanderson likes to play around with stuff like that too much to trust that. XD
As for the Heralds still being alive…I may be way off with this, but I imagine if it’s not some kind of side-effect of the Oathpact (that would persist even if they broke away from it), the Heralds have longevity like Worldhoppers (since they seem to be somewhat Cosmere-savvy).
@12: Hrm, now that you mention it…I always dismissed there being similarities, because grey = lifeless is a pretty common aesthetic choice (see: oodles of media focusing on zombies). There might be something there, but right now nothing comes to mind.
@18 Xaladin, interesting comparison to Sauron’s ring. The difference is that Honor created the honorblades to empower his chosen Heralds in their fight against Odium’s forces. Sauron, in contrast, created the One Ring as a device to surreptiously rule the other magical rings (and their bearers) that the Elves had created. In that sense the honorblades are the opposite of Sauron’s ring in that they were intended to empower good, while the ring was to empower evil, i.e. Sauron’s rule.
The Heralds appear to be immortal or, at least, ageless. They have, however, lost much of their personalities due to their abondoning their shardblades and oath (Taln has a bad case of PTSD due to his long and lonely stay in the tortures of Damnation). Hence, to my thinking, there are no ‘dead’ honorblades.
Nalan in the number 1 spot confused me. Must be the Szeth linkage, as Alice suggested.
Up until now I had hoped the next book would turn out to be Dalinar’s. However, Szeth is becoming more intriguing, and just when I’m flip-flopping we learn the next book may not be Szeth’s.
Miscellaneous observations and questions
–Szeth’s eyes darkened from a sapphire blue color when his blade was away. So…he has to be holding the blade for his eyes to change color? That’s different than for either type of shardblade holder, IIRC.
–When Szeth asks Kal: “Are they all back?” does he mean the Heralds or KR? The timing of the question seems to suggest he means all the KR orders, but it could be the Heralds.
–Kal told an Aes Sedai truth. Syl disapproves. Could be Kal’s Burden.
travyl @8
Nice summary, but I’m confused too. I’m going to go ahead and read the Szeth-death chapter again to try to put it in perspective.
STBLST @10
Now that’s an interesting thought. And question about Nalan’s abilities.
AndrewHB @13 (and ZenBossanovs @23 and STBLST @28)
Yeah, that too. Maybe Honorblades are a solid, physical-realm manifestation of Honor, like the godmetals on Scadrial. And, yeah, no dead honorblades.
Ways @29 – Has there been any new word on whose flashbacks will be in book 3? The last I heard was from the beginning of January, when he said he was going to write out the three flashback sequences (Szeth, Dalinar, Eshonai) and see which one actually fit best with the events that will take place in this book. I haven’t been watching all the boards super-close to see if he’s said anything further. FWIW, it puts a very practical twist to the discussion of his pattern – he’s not locked into “this Order, this flashback character, this character’s development” stuff here.
If I had to guess, I’d guess that the Order we’ll see developed in the next book is the Elsecallers; Jasnah isn’t going to stay out of action much longer now that she’s back on Roshar, I expect. Could be Bondsmith or Truthwatcher, but a) Brandon said we wouldn’t see much of the Bondsmith Surgebinding for a while, b) Renarin doesn’t seem super far along in his development, and c) Jasnah is way farther along than anyone else except perhaps Shallan-with-restored-memories… so it makes sense to me that we’ll see some serious Elsecaller action shortly. But not her flashbacks. :D
Also… I keep forgetting to address the chapter titles. I think I should add a recurring unit just to remind myself to look for interesting stuff there. Like next week’s. And I thought about working my way through it now, but I find that sleep seems much more needful. Something to do with five hours of sleep last night combined with a lot of eye strain in the last few days…
G’night! Catch y’all in the morning to see if anyone has come up with more bright ideas.
Book 3 being the Elsecaller book would also work well because it’s the other KR order with Soulcasting, which we’ll probably get to see a lot of from Jasnah and Shallan in Book 3 (Mraize is owed a soulcaster…).
Otherwise I’d say Truthwatcher/Renarin because he’s still kind of early in his progression…or rather, I would have except we’ve gone two whole books without popping into Renarin’s head once, which makes me doubt book 3 would be the Truthwatcher book. So I guess after Elsecaller the next KR order I would guess for book 3 is the Edgedancers – mostly because we’ve already seen their second oath (at least partially) with Lift.
This will probably lead me nowhere, but was book 3 tentatively named Stones Unhallowed because it was going to be the Szeth book specifically? If not, could be a hint there…
This is going to be a bit of a rambling (and long) post, because I don’t have real answers… but the questions it raises about healing and spren are extremely intruiging…
This chapter proves (for the first time – and I agree with Alice that it is important) that a living spren allows the bearer to heal ‘soul-wounds’ like an arm severed by a shardblade. This completely shocks Szeth as he hasn’t come across living shardblades and ‘knows’ it cannot be done.
It is indeed very likely that this is linked to Brandon’s statement about living shardblades being able to heal the soul. However, he also says he is sad to lose that element in the changed scene and will have to introduce it into the next book, which kind of gives the impression it isn’t covered yet. Meaning that we may be talking about something else than just the ability to heal yourself from a shard-blade-severed-limb or something like that.
So… what do we see in the now deleted scene? A severed spine by a living shardblade (Syl) and a healing by some kind of fabrial (at least that is what Nalan says). And that is where I start scratching my head… because it doesn’t seem to involve healing the sould by a living shardblade at all. I see the following options – but all of them seem pretty farfetched:
1) Brandon simply means that the original scene proved that a bearer of an honorblade like Szeth was is not able to heal himself from this wound, contrary to Jasnah and Kaladin (in this chapter). But that seems pretty self-evident, given that the spine was cut and I think we know for a fact that surgebinders CAN be killed instantaniously by a cut spine. So this wouldn’t prove anything as far as I can tell
2) Brandon intended to prove by the original scene that a wound made with a living shardblade is somehow different from a wound by a dead shardblade and that a person killed with a living shardblade can be healed. The problem with this is that really isn’t the same as what he wrote about living shardblades being able to heal the soul: in the healing there seems to be no living shardblade involved (at least not that we can see), only in the killing.
3) The final option I could think of is by far the most intruiging and the only thing that I can think of that doesn’t have a serious logical flaw, is that there is some spiritually healing aspect in a living shardblade. In killing Szeth, Kaladin/Syl somehow healed him. After his rescuscitation we could see Szeth come out somehow ‘healed’ from the guilt and shame. But that seems rather farfetched and how often would it really happen that someone killed this way gets healed? Unless of course we will see other ways that the spiritually healing powers of the shardblde gets used
Anyway, food for thought… and it makes it interesting to watch out for what this ‘soul-healing’ property really is.
Re: How Szeth ends…
There’s a line somewhere along the way that Szeth just desperately wants someone to finally kill him, so he can start suffering in Hell for all his sins. This made me think he might end up taking up his honorblade again and swearing the Oathpact, becoming a new Herald.
Of course, that would mean Odium would still be around at the end of the series. So maybe this is wrong.
And Nalan recruiting him and giving him Nightblood… yeah, I have *no* idea what Nalan could be thinking or where that could be going. Nowhere good, though.
Re: Just tell them, Kaladin!
So many missed possibilities here. Renarin and Elhokar are probably both wrestling with thinking they are insane when they are actually on the road to becoming a Radiant — and Kaladin could have helped them realize this.
And Dalinar would never have made Amaram a fake Radiant.
And Renarin’s visions could have been used to prevent the calling of the Everstorm.
FenrirMoridin @31 – Yes, up until sometime late last year, Brandon was planning that book 3 would be Szeth’s flashbacks, 4 would be Eshonai, and 5 would be Dalinar. He’d made it clear that that was his plan. When he started outlining it, though, he decided he wasn’t sure that would be the best fit. So he chose to outline the next three books, write the flashback sequences, and see how they will fit best.
I heard someone tossing around a factoid that the third book would now be called Skybreaker, but I don’t put much reliance on that until I see a WoB on it. If nothing else, as a title it’s pretty specific for Brandon’s approach to naming the SA books.
I think it’s for the best that Kaladin didn’t tell at this point. Of course it’s impossible to play “what if” but still… if he’d told here, Dalinar would have been bound do give him a role in the “lets bring the Highprinces to heel” ploy. I’m not sure everyone would have reacted welcoming, especially since Kaladin is not all that far along, he doesn’t even have a Shardblade. And what if he’d lost Syl after having pubically accepted his proto-Radiant status? I’m quite happy with his decisicon.
I found something along the lines I was thinking, if anyone is interested. (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6716-physical-colour-is-not-the-fuel-for-awakening-mild-wor-spoilers) It has to do with the spiritual connections that are being severed/used in the two instances. While I agree that just the fact that Kal’s arm turned grey is not a dead giveaway, I just remember the descriptions that Brandon used used being remarkably similar to how Lifeless are created. But once again, it may have not connections and is just a literary device.
WindedRunner @32 – you summed up my bewilderment pretty well. Those are really the questions I’ve had about this; I can’t connect the statement in his blog with the changes he made and what I already (think I) understand. *sigh* I’m sure it will all come clear eventually.
clintack @33 – Now that’s an interesting notion… that Szeth could swear to the Oathpact… Hmm. I was going to say “I don’t think that’s where Brandon’s going with it, but it would have been an interesting choice.” But then I realized that I very rarely know where Brandon is going with something until he gets there, so I can’t really say that! I actually wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if we finish the series with Odium re-bound, so that the final confrontation with him comes in a later series. (Dragonsteel, perhaps?) So I wouldn’t rule that out.
Szeth with Nightblood gives me the creeps.
“Tell them already” – It’s a funny thing; I can wish Kaladin would tell them here, if only for Renarin’s sake. And, as you say, Elhokar’s; and the use of the visions; and the right establishment of the Radiants; and the preparations that could have been made; and possible, stopping the Everstorm before it started.
Then I remember that if all those problems had been averted at this point, there wouldn’t be much of a story left to tell. So, okay then. I’m good.
@36: Nice! I, for one, think you’re on to something here.
I find it interesting how Kaladin, despite his lack of confidence in a lot of his Surgebinding, was able to heal his arm here. When he couldn’t even heal his forehead brand — because it was something that had become part of his identity. So how is he able to perform an advanced (?) Surgebinding to heal his arm here? By focusing on how using that arm is part of his identity! His dispairing thoughts about being able neither to fight with spear nor to be a surgeon may have serindipitously been what let him re-connect his arm’s spirit.
(A pity that The Kingkiller Chronicles don’t work under the same magic system …)
@37: Yeah, the only reason I’m glad Kaladin wussed out of revealing his powers in this chapter is because it makes his eventual reconciliation with Adolin all the more awesome.
I’ve had a question nagging at me ever since this discussion about Brandon’s statement on living blade being able to heal the soul began. After this fight throws Sezths status as truthless into question he broods and eventually shows up to have a confrontation with Taravangian. The old king placates Szeth by telling him that Kaladin must have one of the Honorblades associated with Re-growth. So that would mean you can actually heal a severed soul two ways; 1st by being bonded to a living shardblade, and 2nd through a healing given by someone with access to the re-growth surge. Now Taravangian could have been lying or making stuff up to save himself (which obviously he was in regards to Kaladin using a honorblade, but the question is did he base that lie on a truth that a regrowth honorblade could heal a severed limb or is that a falsehood as well).
Anyways, it seems like you don’t have to be bonded to a living sharedblade/spren to heal a blade severed soul. Particularly since Nalan heals Szeth (in the orginal version) after his soul was severed and Syl tells us that Szeth is not bonded to any living spren.
So basically what I’m gettin at is I have no idea what Brandon’s statement about living and dead blades healing souls means. It is also unclear to me if the original version, where Kaladin kills Szeth and Nalan revives him, could have still happened. I know it is no longer part of the canonical story, but I’m unsure if Brandon got it wrong the first time in regards to how his mythology/magic system works or if the original version is still plausible within the restraints of the mythology/magic system. From his statement it seems like he just wanted the characterization to be different not the mythology. But then his statement about living/dead shardblade healing souls confuses me.
Am I the only one who is confused about this?
@39 Stormbrother, you raise an interesting point about Szeth accepting Taravangian’s explanation for Kaladin’s healing ability. Szeth must believe that some honorblades may confer such an ability, even if his doesn’t. Nalan possibly uses such an honorblade to effect his revivification of Szeth even if he, himself, doesn’t appear connected to Progression and Regrowth.
StormBrother @39 – Minor difference of interpretation, here – I think when Taravangian said that Kaladin must have healed his hand because he was carrying an Honorblade possessing the Regrowth ability, he wasn’t implying that the bearer could heal others, but that he could heal himself. So he’s not suggesting that anyone can necessarily be healed from a soul-severing by anyone else with the regrowth surge, but that someone with a regrowth Honorblade can heal himself.
That said, I think it’s entirely possible that an Edgedancer (or possibly a Truthwatcher) could effect that healing, but that’s not quite what Taravangian said.
In any case… “Am I the only one who is confused about this?”
No. No, you are not alone.
Wetlandernw @41 – That is a good distinction that I hadn’t really thought about, but you are right. I was combining Taravangians explanation with Nalan’s revivification of Szeth. But those are two seperate events with different types of blades doing different types of damage being healed in different types of ways so perhaps their are too many variable for us to really be able to compare the two.
@32.WindedRunner, @40. STBLST and @41.Wetlandernw
FWIW, my idea is that Nalan bringing Szeth back to life had something to do with the larkin (that little creature that sucks awesomenesss from Lift in another part of the book).
@11 I have it on good authority that one of the Almighty’s Ten Names is “Dave.”
@5 and the subject of Renarin’s control of his blade
I’d say it’s either a small mistake on the part of Brandon and that, yeah, Renarin’s blade probably should have disappeared when he lets go of it. Or the other option is that he’s a natural at using a blade either just by being him or by his KR abilities and that he’s able to do some things with a blade, like make it stay there, a lot faster than most people. Certainly he is a member of a family who all seem to be good at blades so maybe he’s just a “natural” at it.
Szeth, honorblades, changing endings:
I’ve always understood Brandon’s statement on the subject to mean that someone with an honorblade cannot heal themselves from a shardblade wound. I don’t think there is any fundamental difference between the wounds caused by honor/live/dead blades, I think they all cause the same sort of damage. Just Kaladin and other KR can heal themselves from it. I know Brandon did specifically state (in the context of Jasnah surviving her attack) that a KR can only be killed by (I believe he said) having their head crushed.
I definitely think we will see a KR with the regrowth ability who will be able to heal Hobber and other people crippled from shardblade attacks.
Considering what changed in the scene with Szeth, I think @32 Windedrunner’s option 3 is the closest to what Sanderson might have been getting at, although admittedly the idea of a shardblade healing the soul when it kills someone seems wonky (as the person is still dead, so it would only work if you could then bring them back).
That said, although it’s not clear, I think there’s definitely supposed to be some difference between what happens when a “living” shardblade and a “dead” one/Honorblade cuts someone, even if it looks the same on the surface – that’s the only reason why I can see Sanderson lamenting taking it out of the scene at the end of Words of Radiance, especially since that was only the second time a living spren shardblade killed someone in the text (3 if you count the chasmfiend, and not counting Shallan’s mom because it’s a flashback and Shallan’s POV is understandably shaken).
YMMV, but I don’t think it’d necessarily be better/worse for Kaladin to have said he was a Windrunner here…depends mostly on how optimistic/pessimistic you want to be while theorizing. Or…how Shallan/Kaladin you want to be maybe? :D
@30: My guess is next book will be about Truthwatcher. Brandon recently said we would see more of Renarin in the next book and we would learn about how his visions are triggered… He spoiled someone at a signing, but the person is not able to share…. though I think he did say it would be awesome.
If I am right, then the next one should be Renarin. Jasnah is too far away from the main action to be the main focus, in my opinion.
@31: Lift will not a play a major role before the second arc. Brandon has stated as much. She won’t be more than an interlude character for the time being. Though my wild speculation is the next book (or book 4) will indeed be Edgedancer, but via Adolin reviving his Blade. Brandon never stated Lift would be the character to explore the Edgedancers… He said she would play a bigger role in the second half and that we would see her flashback… Does not preclude other options.
@42: Except that Renarin is doing very poorly in his training… Kaladin states Moash was farther along then Renarin after a mere week of training while Renarin had been at it for months. I just do not believe he would manage to discard his Blade this easily given how bad he seems to be at soldering in general. Especially since “learning to be one with the Blade” must require practicing with the Blade, which Renarin does not do as it screams in his head. Impossible he managed to control the commands. I do not believe it. It must be something else.
I do not think the suggested name of the third book means anything. The name of the first two books were not related to the featured order.
I also do not think Elhokar is becoming a Radiant. I think the clues are a Red Hearing. At best, my thoughts are he is a failed Radiants. A prospect at first, but one that was drop before the first oath.
Burdens is an excellent choice for the title of the chapter. Each character has to grapple with a difficult situation, or realization about themselves, in the aftermath of the assasination attempt. Szeth is confronted with a shattering truth. Kaladin lost another member of Bridge 4, and is crippled by his feelings of inadequecy. Dalinar, the true leader of Alethkar, was the real assassins target. Such a great chapter. And the next has even more awesomeness.
@44 I agree that Brandon probably meant that only people with living spren can heal themselves from a shardblade wound. Szeth originally trails stormlight as he falls but is unable to use that to heal himself from Kaladin’s blow. Nale originally had to use a special fabrial to bring Szeth back from death. In the rewrite he uses a surgebinding. That makes me think there are different levels of being dead. Physical death does not equate to being spiritualy or cognitively dead.
I like the change made for the Kaladin’s character. Even while he was a soldier in Alethkar he killed more to protect his squad than any belief in what the generals were fighting for. He is maturing and I believe that pity could make him hold back at that moment.
Not to mention, Dalinar is reminded about his regret about not being there for Gavilar, which he himself even calls a burden later on when it becomes resolved in his final fight with Szeth.
@46 Gepeto: Note I didn’t say that we would get a lot of Lift in book 3, just that in book 2 she gave us information about the second Edgedancer oath. ;)
Wetlandernw @30
I’m pretty sure Brandon was saying the same thing about the next SA book during the Firefight tour. (Firemyst, are you lurking? Isn’t that what he said?)
I would really enjoy an Elsecaller book (featuring you know who–it’s time for her to do some awesome, like exploiting Urithiru and Shadesmar) with Szeth flashbacks. YMMV.
And @37
Ummm, yes! ;-)
I got the impression Renarin was trying to discard his blade. I initially thought he had thrown it down in dispair of his own lack of ability. I could almost hear the self recriminations in his posture. Great bit of misdirection. Who knew he had thrown the blade down because it was actually screaming at him? How did he ever muster the strength to pick it back up? I hope we get this flash back scene in Renarin’s book. I’d love to hear what his spren has to say about it.
@many re: Renarin’s blade – I hate to say it, but I think it’s an error. Specifically, I think it’s an artifact of several chapters getting moved around during revisions so that the timing was changed, but this one moment got lost in the process of fixing it all. It’s the sort of thing we should have caught during the gamma read but obviously didn’t.
@51: Makes sense. I figured it must have been an errror. This scene was to unconsistent with the rest of the story.
But Shallan was able to hand her blade to her father and it was probably new to her if her mother didn’t know it was a threat. She was also able to hand it to Kaladin and then go off and do lightweaving so she must not have to concentrate on it to hard to separate from it. Of course hers is a living blade and Renarin’s on the floor isn’t. There could be a difference between the intuitiveness of using living and dead blades.
About the “living blades healing” conundrum- could Nightblood be counting as a living blade? I know that’s a bit of a stretch.
My initial reaction to Brandon’s comment about living sprenBlades being able to heal actually was that Syl somehow healed Szeth’s soul (at least to help him in the afterlife, since there is no way she or Kaladin could have anticipated his resurrection).
I highly doubt we will see much Truthwatcher action anytime soon. Too Spoilery!
Just spent some time reading through the transcripts of the Chicago signing back in February. Some good stuff there.
— Brandon specifically mentioned there that it is Significant that Kaladin could heal his Blade-severed hand, but Szeth couldn’t.
–He also mentioned that we’ll see more about Renarin’s visions and how they’re related to his Surges in book 3. He apparently said more than is recorded, but strictly off the record.
Bellaberry @53 – I think Shallan’s ability to hand her Blade to other people without apparent difficulty is that Pattern is living and understands what she wants him to do. Kaladin could probably do the same, but it’s never occured to him. It’s harder with a dead-but-sort-of-temporarily-revived Blade, because (I’m guessing) the physical contact makes it easier to keep the heartbeat synchronized with the essence of the dead spren. Since the spren doesn’t really understand the human, but is only pulled into a Physical form involuntarily, without the grounding of actual contact it just fuzzes back into its non-Physical existence.
Renarin probably doesn’t want to hold the blade because it is screaming but doesn’t dismiss it because he wants to be able to use it immediately if necessary, without having to wait 10 heartbeats.
This makes sense to me, Birgit @56. Maybe Renarin’s blade should have been stuck into the stone floor, rather than lying on it? Then the contradiction would have been averted…
And we’ll learn more about Renarin’s visions in the next book? Can’t wait.
Oh we will learn more about his Truthwatcher visions? Cool.
One of the things I kind of regret is that we haven’t gotten to see anything from Renarin’s viewpoint yet – understandably so, of course, but I just want to see how his brain works!
It’s also important to note that we see Renarin with his blade just discarded a fair bit after the battle itself, and later we see him struggling while holding it for quite a while – I wouldn’t be surprised if we missed him failing to keep it there several times, and even when he does he’s disgusted how he can’t use it, thus why it’s on the floor like that.
Admittedly, that feels like reaching when it’s so much simpler that it’s a mistake kept there because it helps keep things misleading, and I could see how even after the paperback was released it was still kept – small continuity errors like that are pretty inevitable in a work of this volume.
Well, it’s entirely possible that Brandon kept it there on purpose, even when the beta- and gamma-readers noted it; he does that sometimes, and it’s always for a good reason. I didn’t go back and scrounge the gamma comments to see if anyone flagged it; I just remember this and related chapters being switched around a bit. Like, in the beta, the chapter when Renarin tried to fight on the plateau was stuck in before the chapter where Adolin won the blade, but that was because one of the chapters had been written after the alpha read but before the beta, and he hadn’t had time to figure out exactly where it went. So… I just assumed this was an artifact of that whole scenario, but maybe it wasn’t. Maybe, as birgit suggested, Renarin is keeping the Blade present for quick access, but avoiding the screams by laying it down. Which… would be a smart move, actually. I like that. It is now my headcanon. :)
FenrirMoridin @58 – I too am fascinated by the idea of getting in Renarin’s head, but I’m betting Brandon has been working very hard to get that right. He’s said before that Renarin is on the autism spectrum, and that means his thought processes are going to be a little different.
(He recently recommended Elizabeth Moon’s The Speed of Dark to someone at a signing, and the reasons he gave made me want to read it too. It’s written from the perspective of an autistic man who is debating whether to take an experimental treatment that would redirect the connections in his brain so that he would no longer be autistic. I highly recommend it, if you know anyone on the spectrum. It’s fascinating.)
The point of all that is that Brandon knows the thought processes have to be different, but he has to determine just how different, and how to write it so that we see the difference rightly. It’s like the way he hung out on the atheist chat groups to be able to write Jasnah correctly; now he has to hang out on the autism chat groups (or some equivalent) to be able to write Renarin correctly. And he has to weave the Truthwatcher development into that. All in all, it’s not an easy task!
I think the issue with Renarin’s Blade is the fact it is supposed to be very difficult to force a Blade not to vanish when you are not touching it. I for one do not believe Renarin has the ability to do so after a few weeks of training, especially not considering it screams at him which would seriously impair his concentration level and prevent him from training too hard with it.
If I am wrong though and releasing the Blade in such fashion is not so hard Renarin can manage this easily, then it speaks at lengths of Adolin, an experienced talented shardbearer, not being able to do in a few chapters…
Come to think of it, didn’t Renarin also discard his Blade in a similar fashion during the 4 on 1 duel? So, what is the deal with discarding the Blades? Hard or not so hard? And in what sort of emotional state Adolin put himself to fail at doing something his baby barely trained brother managed to do while being half-traumatized? Is Adolin really holding himself this poorly when conflicted?
For my part, I believe fleshing out Renarin is more important right now then Jasnah. Renarin is an unexplained character lacking the believable backstory as to why he was chosen to become a Radiant. The clues we currently have are not sufficient: they do not satisfy me. I understand why Brandon chose not to forecast Renarin too much as it would have been impossible to do so without broaching the subject of Glys. Now the secret is out, it may be a better timing to get into Renarin’s head and find out what he thinks once and for all. His viewpoint regarding his brother would be most interesting. We know Adolin is quite the protective encouraging big brother, but what kind of brother is Renarin? Deep down? Is he really not jealous? Not even a little?
Re name of third book. If the third book focuses on the Skbreakers, I doubt the title will be “Skybreakers.” IIRC, WoB is that all of the titles to the SA novels will be names of books from Roshar-in-world. I thought that in WoR, “Stones Unhallowed” is mentioned as a name of a book.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Renarin’s blade failing to vanish didn’t bother me at all. It’s pretty easily rationalized, as birgit @56 did.
Re Renarin’s blade again:
you can only rationalize it that (@56 by birgit) easilly, if you say, that for Renarin it is easy to keep his blade material, while not holding it.
We know from Adolin, that for normal people it isn’t. If Renarin manages it despite that I would put it down to a KR-ability and (RE Gapeto @60) not to a failing of Adolin himself.
Still strange that you could mentally keep a blade material and not hear it scream, IMO. And it would seem strange then, that nobody would comment on his “special” ability to do so.
I’m now on the fence RE mistake or intention, still leaning towards mistake but then I’m biased, because I thought it was a mistake for so long :)
Drifting to Shardblades in general…
Both Gavilar’s and Elhokar’s blades are routinely loaned for training purposes (and duels also?). What I don’t recall is if these particular blades have been willed to stay put in the physical realm when they are not in use. I’m thinking that question may be answered when we get to the chapter where Zahel is training Kal.
Anyway, if those blades have been willed to stay material in the physical realm, then it doesn’t seem like such a big deal to do so. Although, if Gavilar’s blade is not bonded to someone, then it’s going to stay material until it is. However, Elhokar’s blade would have to be willed to stay. If he can do it, then why not Renarin? And why is Adolin any different? Y’all jump in here and set me straight.
Ah, so much discussion over a small point. Well, that’s the way we roll.
I’ve been trying to avoid surging ahead of the reread, but it’s getting harder and harder to avoid. Case in point^^.
I did, however, reread the last few chapters of WoR–starting with the Szeth-Kal confrontation–over the last couple evenings, and doing so cleared up a few issues that were bugging (the crap out of) me. Take-aways (YMMV):
–Stormfather did not exist until Tanavast was killed (ref.: scene where Stormfather accepts Dalinar’s Radiant oaths). Therefore, Brandon’s statement that pre-Recreance Bondsmiths did something
different thansimilar (was the way he worded it, IIRC) to the Stormfather-Dalinar bond makes a lot more sense. So, what spren did the p-R Bondsmiths bond? I don’t believe they were bonded directly to Honor.–Stormfather says he is a Spren and a Sliver of Honor (ref.: Stormfather-Dalinar scene again). OK. The term ‘Sliver’ is usually reserved for people who have held a Shard and given it up (Lord Ruler, Vin). Stormfather?? I guess so. Sort of. Maybe.
–Szeth was made Truthless for proclaiming the return of the Voidbringers (ref.: scene where Nalan resurrects Szeth), not the return of the Radiants or Desolations or whatever. It probably doesn’t matter exactly what aspect he proclaimed, but I do wonder how he knew.
–Honorblades are a solid, physical-realm manifestation of Honor, like the godmetals on Scadrial. I (personally) wouldn’t categorize them as Splinters because Splinters have intent and we haven’t (yet) seen that in Honorblades. (Didn’t note the ref., but it’s in there somewhere.)
@63: Why would a KR ability be tied to sending appropriate commands to a dead Blade? That seems like a stretch…
The only plausible explanation I am able to come up with is handing out the Blade is not so difficult. In fact, it is rather easy as an beginner such as Renarin manages without much trouble.
As for Adolin struggling with the very same commands in a few chapter, it would have to do with his mental state at the time. I always assumed it was a combination of being unconcentrated over a difficult command. I now think the command is not so difficult, but Adolin has has hard time it because he is too unsettled about the attack of Szeth and all that happened during.
@64 Good points. You made me recall Aladar who always hands his Blade to his champion… It must not be so difficult. The fault thus have to go on Adolin who despite being an experienced shard wielder has issues managing his emotions. He had to have a weakness. It makes me wonder if, as event unfold in the next book, we are going to see Adolin struggling some more controlling his Blade.
Nice job! I’ll stay tuned for the next reread. And you’re awesome!
Ok, after this I’ll stopp, but I feel the need to defend Adolin.
The way he words it in chapter 35 (as I posted @5) doesn’t indicate, that every beginner could easilly do it:
Adolin wouldn’t think that, if it were easy for everyone else.
I never said, it’s impossible to keep a Blade material, only that I’m bothered by Renarin doing it after only finished bonding the thing
(and maybe because I think that it would scream at him even if he isn’t touching it…)
Re: Renarin and his Blade
Is it possible that we are actually seeing Glys here in blade form? Since we have’t been inside Renarin’s head, I kinda like this idea, as it would explain the apprent “ease” with which he holds it in place. Is there any WoB/WoP on this? Or any clues in the text for that matter?
It’s hard to say, considering our only examples that we see from a character’s perspective as it’s happening to them is Kaladin and Dalinar, and in this case Kaladin’s isn’t really informative (he’s touching one he’s not bonded to).
In Dalinar’s case we basically only get a moment of him with the screaming Blade, and it’s pretty unhelpful – the text says he hears the screaming right as it appears, but he summoned it in his hand, so it’s hard to say whether it’s because it materialized or if it’s because he was touching it (although it’s suggestive of being since it materialized, because it links the screaming to the appearance and not the sensation of it touching).
There’s one other difference, but I doubt it really matters – iirc we’re not sure how far along Renarin is here (he has the bond because Stormlight has healed him, but I don’t think there’s any confirmed times he probably took any of the Oaths, if at all), and the two cases we see are both from Radiants who have progressed to the second Oath. I doubt the development of the Nahel bond really changes anything (I’d guess once you have it you’d start hearing the screams regardless), but there’s a chance it gets worse as the bond progresses (I don’t think that’s the case, but I could see the argument being made I suppose).
Also, in Adolin’s defense later on, Szeth shook him up in a way he’s just not used to. Adolin is very competent when it comes to fighting, but Szeth just demolishes him in chapter 32, and Adolin is just not used to being so outclassed at this point in his life (which he shouldn’t be, considering from his focus on dueling and his skill he knows that, even among the warlike Alethi, he is a superb fighter in his prime). And unlike Kaladin, Adolin doesn’t have an obvious way to just get better (Syl: Kaladin, you need to put more experience into the Nahel bond and level it up!).
In fact, I think that’s what I love most about this early fight with Szeth: we basically see the four most martially proficient characters in the entire series (so far) fight it out, with one of them easily out-doing the others (partially due to skillset, partially due to the other 3 not being prepared), and because of it the other three all have burdens from it. Kaladin knows he has abilities he hasn’t tapped yet and isn’t good enough, Dalinar is reminded of his failure to save his brother and is still unsure whether he truly wasn’t a match for Szeth yet, and Adolin sees his martial abilities just outright fail when confronted with Szeth.
Edit: @dashardie: Presumably it’s the one he bonded because it’s not an unfamiliar shape, as well as not glowing with glyphs on it. Of course one of his Surges is Illumination so that could be a trick, but that seems like it’s a degree of command that would be beyond him at this point. The Nahel bond has to be somewhat new since he only started not wearing glasses recently, and considering how uncertain he is of himself throughout the book, still being uneasy about being a KR even in the end, it’s seems doubtful he’s up through the third oath/Truthwatcher equivalent.
@FenrirMoridin thanks for clearing the air a bit for me :) As a pet theory, I’ll keep it on the backburner, but I know it doesn’t hold much steam at this stage
Renarin and Oaths
In chapter 14, Renarin is being handed a Blade by his brother. His immediate reaction is one of disgust and uncomfort, but not one of outright horror as we would expect had the Blade been screaming. It is thus safe to assume Renarin had progressed sufficiently at this point in time to feel wrong around a shardblade, but not enough to hear the screams.
In chapter 26, Renarin tries to scare away Parshendi venturing too close to the bridgemen: he utterly fails as he froze in front of adversity. His entire reaction indicates this may have been one of the first time he heards the screams. It is also the first time Adolin notice his brother is not wearing his glasses anymore. At the end of WoR, Renarin confirms to Dalinar he has used stormlight to heal his vision.
In chapter 33, Renarin is visibly troubled as he leaves his Blade unattended, on the floor as if it were soiled.
In chapter 56, Renarin tries to help his brother during the 4 on 1 duel. A complete failure, as he is unable to even fend for himself. Later on, he confirms he was hearing his Blade screaming at the end.
All through WoR, Renarin also manages to write glyphs, unseen of all, unsuspected of all. How did he managed? Using the surge of Illumination stricks as a potential way.
So how many oaths has Renarin said? I would hasard, at least two.
Dalinar also bounded a Blade at the end of WoR. He described the experience as uncomfortable and unpleasant, but he does not hear it scream until he says two oaths back to back. Which one triggered the scream? We do not know. However, we can conclude saying at least one oath is required to hear the screams.
Kaladin is unable to consciously use his surges before having the said the second oath. Syl also in unable to tell him he is a Windrunner until then and much after. Also, Kaladin, prior to saying the second oath, does not use stormlight consciously either.
What does this tell us about Renarin? Most probable option is he has said two oaths. I would not be surprised to find out he said three, but I would think it unlikely. Simply because Renarin is unassuming does not mean he has not progressed. Kaladin was very unassuming until he said the third oath.
Renarin and his Blade
He obviously does not like his Blade. He does not treat it with any respect. He does poorly in his training and yet he manages to discard his Blade easily. The fact he is able to leave it there, on the floor, unattended while being obviously very troubled leads me to believe it is no feat. I am unable to buy the theory Renarin has an exceptional talent with his Blade: he hates it.
We have other examples of other shardbearers discarding their Blades without much trouble.
Adolin and his Blade
He fails at commanding it properly after being soundly defeated. From his POV, we know he angst over confronting the Assassin in White and he fails to see what more he could do. He fears for his father.
It seems to be enough to disrupt him enough he could not send in a simple command is equally disrupt untrained brother managed.
So does Adolin have a weakness with his Blade? Or is it his Blade that behaves abnormally (sweet speculation)? Or is it Renarin that is exceptional in his behavior?
@71 Kaladin does consciously use Stormlight and Surges before he swears the second oath: he sticks rocks to the chasm walls to make a makeshift ladder to climb up to hang his new armor under the bridge, then uses Stormlight to enhance his speed and agility when he baits the Parshendi.
Renarin and Blade…
I’d have to go back and read, but has Renarin finished bonding his blade yet? I remember it took an extended period of time during which the blade couldn’t be dismissed. If he hasn’t completed the bonding process than I believe the explanation for how he could drop the blade without dismissing it would be rather simple, he can’t dismiss it. The rules about keeping a blade in the physical realm are different pre-bonding.
Gepeto @71
I was thinking along the same lines as Nazrax @72. Didn’t Kal heal some wounds with stormlight well before he said any oath? Maybe Renarin did the same; as in bad eyesight wasn’t part of the person he wanted to be. I understand Renarin’s eyesight wasn’t the same sort of problem Kal had with wounds (potentially fatal), I’m just speculating here.
So, perhaps you are putting Renarin a little further along the path to full KR than he really is (number of oaths said), but I don’t believe that changes anything about the questions at the end of your comment. We shouldn’t expect all surgebinders to progress to KR similarly. Thanks for sharing your analysis!
And Stormbrother @73 makes a good point also.
@72-73 Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Kaladin indeed uses stormlight and surges before saying the first oath, but it was unconsciously. During his first bridge run, Kaladin was using Adhesion to draw all arrows aimed at him towards the wooden structure of the bridge. He did not do it on purpose, it just happened. He also healed himself when fataly wounded, but none of these uses where Kaladin purposetly drawing in stormlight and consciously making use of it. As for when he was sticking rocks to the wall, I believe he has said the first oath then. He had deepened his bound enough to perform this simple operation, but he needed to say the second oath to heal himself quickly and fight the Parshendi at the Tower. It thus leads me to believe the more oaths you say, the more complicated use you can make of stormlight and surges. Renarin’s eyesight does not strike as a fatal condition nor a critical one. He may not have like it, but I find it doubtful he did it unconsciously. His speech at the end with Dalinar gives me the impression he did it on purpose, which would suggest he has said the second oath by that time. Let’s not forget he was probably using Illumination to write the glyphs on the wall. We have no definite prookf here, but it seems like the only way to make him to do without ever being noticed. @73: Good guess, but no. He had finished bonding his Blade. It takes a week to do so and a full wo weeks elapse between his starting bonding the Blade and his first training session with Zahel. In retrospective, I may be putting Renarin too far along, but I still believe the clues at end do put him that far. He has to the very least said the first oath in order to hear the screams. His use of stormlight, healing his visions and potentially using the surge of Illumination, suggests he has said the second oath. Another argument to be had is the fact he knew he was a Truthwatcher. Syl was not able to provide this information to Kal until he said the second oath. All sprens are different, but we can assume the level of consciousness require for Glys to speak up this clearly about his being cannot be attained without saying at least two oaths. This is however speculation on my part even if based on Kaladin’s experience. I also think Brandon may have purposetly put Renarin in the shadow, making him appear less then he is. Had we not have Kaladin’s POV, we may have thought he was less advance then he is due to his reluctance to use his powers and his denial of his new status. Shallan has also been shown to refuse to see herself as a Radiant. They are al unassuming, except perhaps Dalinar. Does not mean they have not progressed. However, I will conclude by stating this is my personal analysis of the facts at end.
Which spren is screaming when a modern KR touches a “dead” sharedblade? The bonded spren, “dead” spren, or both?
This is the best example we have, from chapter 57 (and oh is that a chapter I’m looking forward to):
“Why could he hear screaming? Inside his head? Was that Syl’s voice?”
-Kaladin when he Lastclapped Relis’s Shardblade.
Now Dalinar also hears the screams when he has his Shardblade for that moment before unbonding it in the end.
In both cases, we see the spren the men are bonded to (Syl and the Stormfather) acting happily/nonchalantly not long afterward. There’s maybe a minute or two between Kaladin’s Lastclap and Jakamav surrendering, after which Syl is happily floating in the air when Adolin is declared winner. There’s probably only seconds between when Dalinar unbonds his Blade and then asks the Stormfather of the “vision” he had that morning, and the Stormfather doesn’t seem affected at all. Of course, Dalinar was reasonably unaffected by the screams as well, so that could just be both being badass…
Later on Kaladin hears Syl screaming with no doubt, so based on that I’m uncertain what he is hearing here – is he uncertain now because it’s the first time he’s hearing her scream, which is why he knows it later? Or is it because you would automatically wonder if it’s the usual voice in your head if you heard a mental scream like that? Furthermore, while Syl seems happy that doesn’t mean she wasn’t hurt during that, but obviously if she was she didn’t bring it up because Kaladin has bigger issues after this point.
I thought it was the “dead” spren myself, but looking at everything up there I’m now uncertain. I still want to say the “dead” spren, because it seems weird for the Stormfather to be screaming in pain, but then maybe the Nahel bond is that powerful?
I think at this point I’ll wait for a WoB on it or something in Stormlight 3, because I’m confused!
@76 & 77
Dead spren. That’s gotta be in-book somewhere. Isn’t it? Is there only circumstantial evidence from the way the plot develops? Crap. ::Trying to avoid getting lost in the 17th Shard black hole::
@78: Well, we know it’s at least dead spren because Relis says, after Kaladin’s Lastclap: “What is it? What is it! No, I didn’t kill you!” and then goes running off.
Interestingly, and I only noticed this now, he says this part after he dropped the Blade – it could be he’s responding to the memory of the scream, but it’s also possible he’s still hearing it because he’s bonded (and it doesn’t say the Blade disappears after he dropped it).
But all this confirms is that a person also touching the Blade/the person who is bonded to it hears the scream of the dead spren when a KR touches it. It doesn’t help with what the KR might be hearing, which is not as definite.
@79
Hmmm. Well, if Stormfather screamed, then I’d expect Dalinar’s head would explode. Yeah, I know, that’s not solid evidence.
WoB, after poking around Coppermind:
Q: Why did the Shard-bearer when they were dueling with Adolin and Renarin, why does the Shard-bearer freak out when Kaladin grabs the sword?
A: Because when Kaladin was there and they were touching it, they actually heard the spren that was inside of it. It was the sword’s spren that Kaladin was touching it. When the Knight Radiant touches it, you can see when other Knight Radiant pick up the swords, they can hear the screaming.
A bit garbled, but that settles it IMHO. It’s from the Sugarhouse signing 3/27/14.
79. FenrirMoridin
Huh… I assumed at first, that Relis (in the 4 vs 1 duel) was thinking of some dark moment in his past where he was responsible for death – something he had gotten away with.
But now that you mention it, the spren screaming about its own death probably makes more sense.
@80: Yeah that looks like a pretty solid confirmation – also looks like he specified touching, but that part is the more garbled section so I wouldn’t be 100% on it being touch alone.
@81 ZenBossanova: I…never thought it might be that, but it’s a neat thought, he’s reacting to the scream and it’s bringing up memories of something dark in his past…we don’t hear words when Kaladin and Dalinar hear the screams so there’s definitely some potential for that, especially because of how he also kind of hesitates with Renarin.
Now I kind of want Relis to return in some fashion…which might be the case anyways, of the duelists Adolin faced in Words of Radiance he has the easiest potential hook with having heard the scream.
About Relis and Kaladin… I have always thought Relis was hearing his dead-Blade spren screaming because Kaladin, a Radiant, was touching the Blade at the same time as his.
Brandon’s WoB seems to confirm this line of thought.
So far, Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan and Renarin hears the scream because they are advanced enough Radiants to do so. Advanced enough seems to be “at least level one”, “potentially level two”.
@82: Are tou suggesting Relis may become a Radiant? Somehow this thought sends an uneasinest in me I cannot describe… How could the man who purposetly trap Adolin into an unfair duel with the self-alleged intention to crippled or kill him for punishment be chosen by any sprens? And Punishment for what? Being an arrogant over-talented swordsman with a purpose? Hardly a reason to kill…. Worst, Relis was willing to sacrifice helpless and innocent Renarin as collateral damage…
If there is any order willing to take on such a piece of garbage (sorry, I apologize, but this is how I feel about Relis), then I have completely misjudged the Radiants as a whole……
Personally, I doubt we are going to see Relis again as he was shipped back home the evening following the duel, in shame. However, I doubt we are done hearing about Jakamav. Not to say he will become a Radiant, but Roion is dead. As far as we know, he has no heir. What if one of the next Highprinces was Jakamav? And what if the other one was Amaram?
Nah, I wouldn’t necessarily rule Relis out becoming one, but definitely wouldn’t jump to saying he has a chance. I like the idea of him having a darkness that could show up later and be expanded on though – can’t just have proto-Radiants in the cast.
Plus some parts of the Alethi homeland will show up in Book 3 as we have Kaladin’s
roadskytrip, although we don’t know how far he’ll be able to get on the Stormlight they can provide.I always forget Shallan heard the scream as well – it’s such a quick scene in a busy chapter, and it doesn’t really tell us anything new (it’s mostly there because Shallan is a radiant touching a dead Shardblade, and it does nicely reinforce that line about there being something wrong with all the other Shardblades but her own).
Jakamav as a Highprince? Well we know he was a Shardbearer under Roion but that seems like a bit of a leap…but then I’m biased to not want him to show his face around Adolin again. Adolin does not need a fair-weather friend in his current situation.
@85: Fair enough. I would not mind seeing Relis evilness being expended. We seem to be running low on bad guys lately.
I take it you have not read the SA3 excerpt… We do know exactly how far Kaladin goes with his stormlight.
As for Jakamav, I am rambling. He is lighteyed of the fourth dahn and a land lord. He runs the Roion army during gem hunts. He is a talented duelist, which implies he has some importance. We have never heard of Roion having any children. Since he died, we can assume some other high ranked lighteyed would be name in his place. Jakamav does not seem like such a bad guess….
I do want to see him show his face around Adolin is not just to get a reaction out of the later… We have not had any closure on the 4 on 1 duel. Adolin got trap there by someone he thought was one of his best friends. Surely, it must have weighted down him, but we never get to read on the follow-up. I suspect we may not have heard the end of Jakamav. I doubt Adolin would be naive enough to go back being friends with him… though with Adolin we never know.
85. FenrirMoridin
Your comment makes me think you didn’t see the first chapter of Book 3.
That is really too bad.
Apologies @86 and @87, that was because I forgot to delete that roadtrip joke sentence when I was looking over it before posting (I had the whole extended metaphor going, comparing the broams to a gas tank, fuel efficiency, etc. then realized I went on way too long and deleted it – or well most of it, I missed the first sentence!).
My deleted point was we don’t know how far his entire trip is going to be and thus how much of Alethkar we’d get to see.
Gepeto@86 we haven’t heard about anyone having children, really, except Dalinar. For all we know he does have children back at home like Elhokar does. Brandon just hasn’t mentioned children much outside of the Kholins and Davars. This is a bit of world building that I would like to see more of. How are the children raised? who does most of that work? They must have a fair number of children as a society to keep up with their war habits.
Gepeto @84:
Disgrace here or there, Relis is a Highprince’s heir isn’t he? He is bound to turn up again at some point in the overall narrative of the series, unless he gets killed offstage. He is just too important to simply vanish.
Re: children and other heirs, yes, I very much hope that our current impression that Davars, Kholins and Relis’s father are the only ones who bothered/managed to procreate, is an incomplete one, because it makes zero sense in the depicted society and would explode my WSOD.
OTOH, at some point Sadeas would be pondering the removal of the Highprinces who sided with Dalinar and his intention of replacing them with his own men, which should have been problematic if they had families/heirs. Also, the lands of that one Highprince whom the Kholins had managed to trap in a duel and get killed (Yemev?) now seem to belong to somebody else and be called something else. And the Veden king had no clear heirs either, though he, at least, had some children.
But on the gripping hand, Kholinar is millenia old and is still being ruled by Kholins, so either they are just a super-special family (I hope not!), or the things are a bit less fluid among the ruling families than they currently seem.
Re: Renarin and his sword – I wonder if his differences make it much easier for him to maintain certain kinds of concentration than it would be for a normal person. Maybe we should look beyond Adolin’s skill and experience and Renarin’s newbness and consider that the latter may have some unexpected talents.
I don’t know whether or not someone mentioned this conjecture. Perhaps the ‘dead-spren’ shardblades scream when contacted by a Surgebinder because of the traumatic Recreance experience when KRs abandoned their shardblads and oaths wholesale, resulting in the ‘death’s of the associated spren. The bonded shardblade holders like Relis, or Surgebinders (i.e., proto KRs) like Kaladin and Renarin can also hear the screams. Adolin doesn’t appear to hear such screams when holding various shardblades won in duels. That might remove him from proto-Radiant candidacy. On the other hand, he seems to have healed rather quickly from the wounds received from his being confronted by Szeth at that plateau (leading search parties after arriving in Urithiru).
@88 You are right in your statement. We may get to see more of Alethkar via Kaladin’s road trip, though I suspect he may directly go from Heartstone to Kohlinar and re-open the Oathgate there, but this is pure speculation on my part. @89: I am also interested in hearing more about children in Alethkar. From Zahel, we know highranked kids get typically chosen by a swordsmaster around the age of 11 (which makes Adolin the odd one out for starting training at 6). He states to Kaladin he sees arrogant know-it-all kids step into the training ground everyday, which implies many highranked individuals must have dragged their family with them. Jasnah also mentions to Shallan marrying Adolin to another Highprince daughter would have been better had he not managed to offense every single one of them, which implies several Highprinces have daughters in their early twenties/late teens. It does not look like the average Alethi family is numerous. Both Galivar and Dalinar had only two children. There was never any mention of other sibblings for Galivar and Dalinar. Dalinar’s late wife did not seem to have any sibblings either as the family’s shardplate was given to Adolin, implying they did not have any male heir on their side. Elhokar, despite being married for nearly a decade has only one very young son… They truly do not seem to have large family which implies some birth control items. It is strange Dalinar and Shshshsh did not have any other childre after Renarin as they did seem to love each other. @90: Relis is described as being Ruthar eldest son, which implies he has at least one younger brother. It could be his father disherit him in favor of his second son. We do not know how old Relis or Elis are either. I for one would like to have a feel at the relative age of the various characters in the story. The Veden king had many children, but all were killed in the civil wat except for his bastard. It could be Renarin has a talent for it, he sure controls his emotions better then his brother. @91: Adolin does not hear the screams yet. Does not mean he won’t make it to Radiant, it just means he has no Nahel bond and more importantly, he has said no oaths. I did not get he healed fast.. His wrist is still broken and the idiot used it to knife Sadeas. It flared in pain as he did so, which makes me wonder if he did not worsen the injury. He also mentions his bruises… My guess have always been Adolin has not been taken a very good care of himself… Strolling all day in tunnels pondering endlessly when he should have been resting. Come to think of it, we have never seen him take any time to recover from any injuries which is bond to snap back at him at some point, especially considering the number of times he managed to knock his head.
To all, please ignore my post at @92. I wrote from my work computer and it came out wrong… It looks painful to read, so here is an update with propoer formatting.
@88 You are right in your statement. We may get to see more of Alethkar via Kaladin’s road trip, though I suspect he may directly go from Heartstone to Kohlinar and re-open the Oathgate there, but this is pure speculation on my part.
@89: I am also interested in hearing more about children in Alethkar. From Zahel, we know highranked kids get typically chosen by a swordsmaster around the age of 11 (which makes Adolin the odd one out for starting training at 6). He states to Kaladin he sees arrogant know-it-all kids step into the training ground everyday, which implies many highranked individuals must have dragged their family with them.
Jasnah also mentions to Shallan marrying Adolin to another Highprince daughter would have been better had he not managed to offense every single one of them, which implies several Highprinces have daughters in their early twenties/late teens.
It does not look like the average Alethi family is numerous. Both Galivar and Dalinar had only two children. There was never any mention of other sibblings for Galivar and Dalinar. Dalinar’s late wife did not seem to have any sibblings either as the family’s shardplate was given to Adolin, implying they did not have any male heir on their side. Elhokar, despite being married for nearly a decade has only one very young son… They truly do not seem to have large family which implies some birth control items. It is strange Dalinar and Shshshsh did not have any other childre after Renarin as they did seem to love each other.
@90: Relis is described as being Ruthar eldest son, which implies he has at least one younger brother. It could be his father disherit him in favor of his second son. We do not know how old Relis or Elis are either. Their interaction suggested Relis was older, though Elis is the one balding which may or may not mean anything. I for one would like to have a feel at the relative age of the various characters in the story. I sometimes wish Brandon would put more descriptive elements when it came to characters.
The Veden king had many children, but all were killed in the civil wat except for his bastard. It could be Renarin has a talent for it, he sure controls his emotions better then his brother.
@91: Adolin does not hear the screams yet. Does not mean he won’t make it to Radiant, it just means he has no Nahel bond and more importantly, he has said no oaths. I did not get he healed fast.. His wrist is still broken and the idiot used it to knife Sadeas. It flared in pain as he did so, which makes me wonder if he did not worsen the injury. He also mentions his bruises… My guess have always been Adolin has not been taken a very good care of himself… Strolling all day in tunnels pondering endlessly when he should have been resting. Come to think of it, we have never seen him take any time to recover from any injuries which is bond to snap back at him at some point, especially considering the number of times he managed to knock his head.
No hunny this week. :-(
Re: ‘Why is the Blade on the floor’: What about the possibility that Renarin loaned his blade to Moash during the retreat with the King? I know Moash would jump at the chance to hold a Shardblade. Renarin would have wanted to use, but not been able to bare to touch, the Blade and he might have thought the situation merited the loan to an eager guard. When it ended up not being needed it got dropped at Renarin’s feet. That would explain why it was still there. The next time that Kaladin goes to the practice grounds to work with Zahel he brings Moash along with him (I know, two more, too). That idea might have been instigated by Moash having had to use a Blade before having had any training for it. That’s probably not why Moash wants to train with a Blade, but that could be why Kaladin brought him to train.
As for Renarin’s current level of proto-Radiancy, I agree with Gepeto and go even further to suggest that Renarin is much farther along the path, and may actually be a full KR. What if Renarin was approached by a spren as a child (ala Shallan) and his process of bonding looked so strange to his family that they determined he was having ‘fits’. My first impression of Renarin in WOK Ch 42 was that there was something strange going on with him there, but not a ‘fit’. This is just after Dalinar’s vision ended:
Renarin seemed to have a lot to say about what Dalinar saw, almost as if he had seen some of it too, (Truthwatching) and it shook him up. This is the first time he’s been near Dalinar when he was having a vision. Or, maybe his spren was talking to him and he was just nervously listening. The whole ‘why isn’t Renarin wearing his glasses’ issue could be explained simply as his glasses are fake (ala Jasnah’s soulcaster) and he doesn’t use them when he has Plate on. He had plate on when Adolin was noticing his lack of glasses. This could also explain why his Blade is sitting at his feet – because he is so advanced in skill level (except using the Blade) that he can leave it there.
ETA: reference to Gepeto
Oh, and no one mentioned that Renarin read the latest glyphs: “Thirty-eight days,” Renarin read. “The end of all nations.” [mine] As oblivious to reading as Adonlin is, does everyone know that Renarin can read? Probably can write, too, eh?
ETA: missing word
@95: By far the most daring Renarin theory I have read! The idea Renarin may more advance is tempting, though if he were, wouldn’t he have known about the nature of his dead Blade? Would he still think the issue is within his own head? These facts leave me to believe Renarin is not a full Radiant, but I do think he is more advance than the first oath, the second, at least, maybe the third, but unlikely.
As for the “dropping the Blade” issue, my new opinion is there is nothing wrong going on with Renarin. Dropping the Blade is not such a hard command: even he, as a trainee, should be able to master it. I am currently thinking the issue is with Adolin who fails at controlling his own Blade. In other words, emotionally disturbed and stressed out Adolin does have trouble sending commands to his Blade or perhaps it is the Blade who has trouble remaining solid when Adolin is not touching it. In any advent, I am leaning towards Adolin being the issue and not Renarin.
As for the reading, I thought he was reading glyphs… not scripture.