Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Adolin gave another memorable dueling performance, setting up something he hopes will be spectacular. This week, Shallan is forcibly reminded that when the stakes are high, there is often a high price to pay—and sometimes the innocent pay it.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 54: Veil’s Lesson
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: the Unclaimed Hills
Symbology: Pattern, Shalash, Ishar
IN WHICH Shallan walks through the rain in the Unclaimed Hills to meet with several members of the Ghostbloods; Mraize is surprised that “Tyn and Shallan” were able to enter Amaram’s house and is impressed by the pictures she provides; Shallan has carefully chosen which bits of information are actually revealed by the pictures, but inadvertently reveals that she can draw very accurately from memory; Mraize realizes that Shallan killed Tyn and is working on her own, and commends her for it; as she is dismissed, she realizes that in his parting words, Mraize has given the others tacit permission to try to kill her; in a slight panic, she creates an Illusion of a boulder and hides in it, while sending Pattern to use her voice to tell the carriage driver to return to the warcamp; hoofbeats follow and then return; Mraize speaks to an unidentified companion of various other persons interested in these matters; when her Illusion dissipates, she begins the long walk back to the warcamp while practicing accents with Pattern; their practice is disrupted by the discovery of her carriage burned, her coachman and his parshmen murdered; she continues her walk more somberly, pondering how she could have handled this so no one died.
Quote of the Week
“We will need to find how much he knows.” Mraize’s voice. “You will bring these pages to Master Thaidakar. We are close, but so—it appears—are Restares’s cronies.”
The response came in a rasping voice. Shallan couldn’t make it out.
“No, I’m not worried about that one. The old fool sows chaos, but does not reach for the power offered by opportunity. He hides in his insignificant city, listening to its songs, thinking he plays in world events. He has no idea. His is not the position of the hunter. This creature in Tukar, however, is different. I’m not convinced he is human. If he is, he’s certainly not of the local species.…”
Thaidakar, Restares, Taravangian… So far, Mraize seems to know more about all these subversive groups than anyone else, but Gavilar apparently knew something about a couple of them, at least. (Too bad he didn’t pass that information on.) And what about “this creature in Tukar,” while we’re at it? I’m guessing—only guessing—that he’s referring to “that god-priest of theirs, Tezim.” What creates the legend of a god-priest on Roshar? An Unmade? Someone holding an Honorblade? A Surgebinder/Proto-Radiant? A rogue Herald?
Commentary
The juxtaposition of this chapter with the previous hits me almost as hard as the interweaving of the Lightweaving/Windrunning chapter did a couple of weeks ago. Last week’s title of “Perfection” was both literal and ironic, as Adolin was perfectly in control of the duel, but (as we know to our dread) not so perfectly in control of his wording when he challenged Relis. This week, Shallan’s planning and presentation was nearly flawless, but the whole thing almost unraveled by a few thoughtless words.
I must also note that this week’s title, “Veil’s Lesson,” brings back memories of another Lesson, one in which people also woke up dead. This time, though, instead of criminals springing the trap Jasnah set for them and paying the ultimate price, the innocent driver and porters were killed by the trap Shallan accidentally dropped them into.
I had all sorts of snarky comments in my head about Shallan learning that she was out of her league; that when you play games with the Ghostbloods, the stakes are high; that if you’re not careful, the innocent pay the price on your behalf. Then it hit me: she learned those lessons a long time ago. This is indeed a grim reminder, and this time she has some knowledge of what the stakes are, but she’s been caught in this kind of game since she was a little girl… and the innocent always seem to pay the price. From Li’l Shallan nearly murdered for the beliefs of her mother and her “friends,” to the destruction of her own innocence in self-defense, to the burden of protection which drove her father into madness, to the servants maimed as an outlet for his anger at her… and all of it tangled up with Ghostbloods, Skybreakers, and possibly other subversive organizations or fanatic cults. No, high stakes and lives on the line are not a new experience for her. The difference is that this time, she’s deliberately taking an active role, and is therefore more directly to blame when the innocent are murdered. And she knows it.
Still, she did acquit herself well for the most part. I was impressed that she replaced all the writing with appropriate but uninformative wiggly lines, and that she only gave him a small chunk of actual text which might serve to get him talking. I was more impressed that she had her story worked out so that the reasons for the missing information was perfectly plausible. If only she hadn’t admitted that she could draw so well from memory; it was a slight, understandable, but deadly error.
Well, she was bound to make some mistakes. At least this one wasn’t life threatening. Probably.
Foreshadowing, much? Ouch.
Stormwatch
This is the same day as Chapter 53, and the reason Shallan had to refuse Adolin’s dinner invitation. Thirty days remain.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
The general wild beauty of the surroundings form an idyllic backdrop to what turns out to be a vicious, deep, and twisty narrative. Shallan has so much fun, initially, enjoying a walk in the rain and observing the thirst-emboldened grass and the proliferating vines. She gives herself a little biology review as she strolls along, and compares the vegetation to what she’d be likely to find at home in Jah Keved. And then… the politicking starts, and we don’t get to enjoy the vines any more.
Ars Arcanum
Pictures! Pretty pictures!
I love the way she describes (according to “Brightness Axeface”) and sketches a lady’s pace, including the angles of the feet—and then proceeds to draw Veil walking in a very different manner. As she would, of course. Interestingly, Shallan has a thought that I suspect may come into play again later:
It occurred to her that this person she became when she put on the hat and dark hair was not an imitation of someone else, not a different person. It was just a version of Shallan herself.
For some reason, I can’t help thinking along with her that this could be dangerous.
Aside from Shallan’s always-amazing artwork, and the clever use of the boulder she had put into the picture she drew for Mraize, there is another lovely little exchange I must point out:
“What I need to do,” Shallan said, “is train you to speak along with my images.”
“You should have them speak themselves,” Pattern said.
“Can I do that?”
“Why not?”
“Because… well, I use Light for the illusion, and so they create an imitation of light. Makes sense. I don’t use sound to make them, though.”
“This is a Surge,” Pattern said. “Sound is a part of it. Mmm… Cousins of one another. Very similar. It can be done.”
“How?”
“Mmmm. Somehow.”
“You’re very helpful.”
“I am glad…” He trailed off. “Lie?”
“Yup.”
Okay, I’ll admit it: I included the last five lines for the sheer fun of it. The earlier part, though, is the first clear indication we’ve had (unless you read the Ars Arcanum first) that Illumination uses more than just light to do its thing; control of this Surge confers the ability to manipulate other waveforms, too. So if she can figure out how to do it, she should be able to include sound in her Illusions. I’ll have to watch for this; right now, I can’t recall whether she succeeds in this book.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
We’ve been given to understand that Mraize is Thaylen, but IIRC he’s also been confirmed as a world-hopper. This really makes me wonder about his involvement in Rosharan affairs. Has he returned because things started heating up? Did he trigger the heating? Or is he only tangentially interested in Roshar as it affects the Cosmere in general?
Speaking of world-hoppers, I have to confirm something that we discussed before: Iyatil, whoever she may be, is definitely not Khriss. I still don’t have any good guesses on who she is, but this much I know: Khriss is tall.
Heraldic Symbolism
The Heralds this week are Shalash and Ishar. Shalash is fairly obvious, with her connection to Shallan’s Lightweaving. What about Ishar? I can’t help thinking he’s there for Mraize, but whether as the Vorin ideals of pious/guiding, the opposite, or the “associated madness” I can’t even begin to guess. There is so much about Mraize and the Ghostbloods that we just don’t know… *sigh*
Words of Radiants
There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.
–From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
Well. There seems to be some divisiveness among the Knights Radiant. Part of me really wants to know what the occasion was and what their various reasonings were, but I suspect this epigraph is mostly here to give us (a) hints of a conflict between orders; (b) Windrunners with squires; and (c) a peek into what the Skybreakers were all about. All three of those may well play critical roles in upcoming books.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Adolin and Shallan—with a reluctant Kaladin in tow—visit a menagerie for a change of pace. See you in the comments!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Betas and gammas this year have been popping out all over; look for some spectacular books from Sanderson-wards in the near future! If you haven’t already acquired Elantris for your very own, it’s worth making sure you get the 10th Anniversary edition, too. It’s definitely new and improved.
It’s funny, but except for her drawings it seems like Shallan has some difficulty when it comes to getting down to finer details – more as a byproduct of how often she’s being rushed I think.
Besides that another great chapter! It amuses me that Shallan finds herself constantly trying to hide her ability to draw from memory, and yet it’s accidentally revealing it that usually sets things in motion (and while we don’t know the exact fallout from this scene, there’s one later on where she might have gotten herself and a certain surly bridgeman killed if she hadn’t inadvertently revealed it…).
The Shallan/Veil separation reminds me of the Lt. (Miles) Vorkosigan/Admiral (Miles) Naismith split from Bujold’s Vorkosiverse. Naismith, despite obstensibly being the fake, threatened to overwhelm the original Vorkosigan identity (not like in a dissociative disorder but in terms of motives, flaws, and obsessions). Naismith was Miles turned up to eleven, full-speed-ahead-and-damn-the-torpedoes, and fast talk first with sober follow up as late as possible. Lt. Vorkosigan was much more orderly and constrained; still striving for excellence but being very careful to avoid rocking the boat (Naismith would sink the boat, save everyone in a daring seat-of-the-pants rescue and leave the bad guys at the bottom of the ocean). Since Lt. Vorkosigan was embedded in the social and military hierachy of Barryar, he was very constrained in what he could do. He didn’t really have the room to manuver his way around his physical disabilities. While he could have done his job, he would never fulfill Miles’ ambitions.
Shallan isn’t facing the same constraints as Miles Vorkosigan so Veil isn’t as dangerous to her mental equilibrium. But if her official persona becomes more limited in her freedom of action and expression, I would not be surprised if she resorted to Veil in order to regain that freedom. Then she’ll have to be careful that the needs of herself-as-Veil don’t overwhelm the needs of Shallan the stable(?) and functioning person.
Mraize dismisses Taravangian as unimportant because he’s staying in his city and refusing to take advantage of the chaos he’s created. I wonder how his opinion will change now that Taravangian has left Kharbranth and made himself King of Jah Keved.
On the topic of Shallan’s auditory illusions, she doesn’t manage to create any in this book, but Pattern eventually recalls a time when she could do it as a child. Shallan says that she cannot access those memories without becoming the catatonic figure she shows and intends to find another way to create the effect.
@2: Thank you for bringing up Miles. Good comparison that I would never had made, but it fits. I too really hope she never has to go the extreme lengths Miles did to try and ‘save’ Naismith.
This is when it ‘got real’ for Shallan, in my head. She was playing before, but the death of the coachman really drove home the stakes she was playing for.
Such a fun couple of lines:
Edit: Mods, why is the site being glitchy again? I almost lost my comment, and the comments in general are not wanting to show up. Self flagging.
At first I thought that the creature in Tukar was Szeth. But after I read Alice’s post this week, I think Mraize is refering to Nale. “I’m not convinced he is human. If he is, he’s certainly not of the local species” could certainly describe a Herald.
Alice, I am not sure if you believe that Mraize is Thaylen. You only stated that you think the reader is lead to believe that Mraize is Thaylen. However, after re-reading the quote you provided about the creature in Tukar, I am convinced he is not Thaylen. If he were, I do not think he would have referred to humans from Roshar as “of the local species.” That is verbage that somebody who is not from a planet would say about another person or people who native to the a world the speaker is not native to.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
It seems rather obvious that the ‘old fool sowing chaos..living in his insignificant city and listening to its songs’ refers to Taravangian in the city of bells. As noted, however, he has progressed to assuming the rule of Jah Keved by default after arranging for the death of the king and the would-be claimants to the throne – not to mention the destructive civil war that he precipitated. The identification of the ‘creature in Tulkar’ who may not be human, according to Mraize, or not of a Rosharian humanity, is much more mysterious. Is he referring to Restares or Alice’s guess at the god-king there [where is there another reference to Tulkar and its ruler?]. It may even be Hoid who has had 17th shard associates looking for him in the Purelake region based on false leads that he had given. Perhaps he also had himself falsely placed in Tukar. The identity of Mraize and Ilyatin is equally mysterious – particularly the latter. Mraize’s frequent invocation of the hunter vs prey metaphor coupled with his broken and badly reset fingers leads me to assume that he had been tortured at some point. If so, then his character may have undergone a transformation as the result of such treatment from enlightened to a sinister follower of a dark power.
@@.-@ Having an alter-ego that can go “screw the rules” does not trend toward good decision making. It is good Shallan is reminded that Veil creates real consequences with her actions.
@@@@@ several – I should have cited my sources, but at the time it was too much work. :/
There’s a WoP on 17th Shard that Mraize is from Thaylenah; it’s also indicated by his reference to his babsk, which is a Thaylen word/concept. However, there’s also a WoB (as well as in-story hints) that Mraize is a world-hopper. So… he’s either a world-hopper who came and made Thaylenah his Rosharan “home” or, much more likely from the evidence (IMO), he’s a Thaylen who has somehow connected with off-world world-hoppers and learned from them.
As to “this creature in Tukar” – I was referring back to TWoK Chapter 54, where there is discussion of a war between the Emuli and the Tukari, who are apparently fighting over possession of the city Sesemalex Dar. On the one hand, the conflict can be assumed to be economic in nature, as the city is a good port and a center of trade. On the other hand, it could be considered a religious conflict: the Emuli claim it to be central to their religion, a gift from the Heralds, perhaps even a Dawncity, while the Tukar are led by “that god-priest of theirs, Tezim.” Since these are pretty much the only references to Tukar (other than Jasnah studying there sometime prior to her time in Kharbranth), I leapt to the obvious possibility that the one specific person mentioned in connection with Tukar just might be the one Mraize meant here.
The only further justification for this speculation is the term “god-priest.” To me, it implies that the leader is more than just an ordinary priest; he is in some way considered a god, or has god-like powers. Hence the suggestion that he might be the holder of an Honorblade, a Surgebinder of some description, or even a Herald. In that last possibility, I was thinking of Nalan, of course, since he’s the one we’ve seen going around interfering in affairs; however, I can’t find any evidence that he was ever in Tukar – and certainly not hanging around there acting as their leader for the past six years. So as of now, I’m actually discounting him, except in a possible power-behind-the-throne role.
@5 Mraize being from Thaylenah is supported by WoP.
Edit: Oops, should have refreshed before replying, Wetlander got there first.
I’m not sure how Shallan could have excused not getting much writing copied (when she had perfect recreations of all the maps) yet kept her memory skill secret, any other person would have it the other way around.
What language would Worldhoppers be speaking in when they are alone? Grump, Blunt and Thinker don’t speak Rosharan to each other but Mraize does, maybe he is a lot more at home than them.
Well Khriss may be tall on her home planet but this is Roshar with it’s lower gravity, the residents are probably all nine feet tall…
AndrewHB @5 (ETA–and WeiryWriter @9)
To supplement Alice’s comment @8:
Word of Peter (Aug, 12, 2014): “I think it’s pretty clear in the book that Mraize is from Thaylenah.” My take: it is pretty clear, but Peter isn’t confirming that the book is correct. So, I’m personally leaving it where Alice did: “We’ve been led to believe…”.
And…as far as Mraize being a worldhopper:
Yes, the Orem signing report makes it sound like Mraize (and Iyatil) are confirmed as worldhoppers. However, when I checked the original transcription (here) used to generate Theoryland’s Orem signing report, I found the following (emphasis mine):
I’m inclined to believe Mraize is a worldhopper, but the uncertainty of the transcriber opens it to question (ETA–not much of one, just sayin’).
Why do I get the feeling that Veil will be Adolin’s salvation when people find out what happened to Sadeas?
Braid_Tug @@.-@
I’m having the same problem, and it seems typical more than unusual–slow refresh after posting. My work-around is to stop my browser from refreshing (after waiting about 1 minute from when I hit “post”), then to refresh again. And repeat if it doesn’t work the first time. I only completely lost my comment on one occasion with that method. Copying the comment to the clipboard will prevent a total loss of a wall-of-text comment.
@@.-@,13 – Thanks for alerting us to this. I’m forwarding your comments to the appropriate folks so we can get these issues resolved.
This will be quick and stream-of-consciousness-y:
As others have suggested, I think Mraize is underestimating Taravangian badly here. Taravangian *is* reaching for “the power offered by opportunity”. Not just in Jah Keved – his goal is to unite all Roshar under his rule so he can lead them against the Desolation. It suggests that Mraize – and perhaps, but only perhaps, the Ghostbloods – don’t know much if anything about the Diagram. Which is surprising, considering how much they seem to know about other things. I wonder if the opposite is true – does the Diagram account for worldhoppers?
Secret society review for my own benefit – Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods; Restares and the Sons of Honor; Skybreakers, which may or may not include Nalan but definitely included Helaran; Teft and the Envisagers, sorta; who else? The creature in Tukar and whoever else knows of him? Oh, and of course the 17th Shard.
If Mraize is from Thaylenah (what, *really*?!? Had missed all of that, he doesn’t seem to have the eyebrows does he?) then where did his ‘hunter’ culture come from? Granted we haven’t seen a lot of Thaylenah, but more than we have lots of other cultures (ahem, Emuli, Tukari). All that we’ve seen has been very mercantile-oriented.
Re: the “meat” of the chapter, it was a fun chapter. Shallan did quite well. She also made a rookie mistake, and it cost innocent lives. At least she feels bad about it. I can’t think what else she could have done except not reveal her drawing/memory skills at all. Not only does this lead to the death of the coachman and Parshmen here; it is also what allows Mraize to learn her dual identity, and that is all kinds of ominous, especially given his contention (foreshadowed here) that Veil is her true self, and that is the self which will belong to/interact with the Ghostbloods.
Of course, we don’t know the Ghostbloods real intentions and goals, so maybe belonging to them won’t be so bad. Yeah, right. Aside from attempting to assassinate Jasnah (taking out a considerable part of the drew of the Wind’s Pleasure, at least), they also murder innocents here. And yet, by the end of the book they know more about Shallan than anyone, including her fellow Radiants…
chaplainchris1 @15
Worldsingers (Hoid and Sigzil)
Taravangian’s Silent Gatherers
Chris @15 – You ask many of the same questions I’ve asked… and still don’t have answers. As far as I know, you have the secret society list complete as far as we know it, with the possibility that there may be two distinct groups calling themselves “Skybreakers” – and neither of which (if there are two) show any evidence of being realio trulio Knight Radiant Skybreakers.
About Mraize’s lack of eyebrow distinction and his “hunter” theme, there are several possible explanations, and no clue as to which might be true – or whether any are even close. One is that as a world-hopper, it is sometimes necessary not to give such blatant clues as to one’s origin, or such memorable and obvious features.
(EDITING. I accidentally touched the Quick Reply button. Oops.)
Anyway, it’s entirely possible that Mraize simply trims his eyebrows so as not to stand out in that particular way. Or maybe he’s only part Thaylen, and can’t grow really good thick ones, so he trims them to avoid the scraggly-beard– eyebrow look. And of course there’s the possibility that he just likes the term “babsk” and has adopted it, and Peter is just being coy. :D
As far as his hints at a hunter culture… well, it could be that he’s spent enough time in a different (off-world) culture that he’s acquired the idioms. Or it could be that he’s hopped forward in time (a la Hoid) enough that he’s from a period in history when Thaylenah had more of a hunter culture. Or it could be that he’s just (either by nature or by training/torture) become someone who thinks primarily in terms of hunter and hunted.
I’m… not quite sure how I feel about finding out. The more I see him, the less I like him.
@@@@@ Many – There are so many groups in Roshar that obviously have different objectives and goal when it comes to the desolation. I am only familiar with the Ghostbloods and the one I personally call The Diagram group led by King Turavangian. Does the Dalinar’s group have a name?
@ 18. sheiglagh
Well Dalinar himself is a Bond Smith and a lot of his family/associates seem to be getting Sprenified so…how about The Oathbringers?
To expand a little on what chaplainchris posted @15, here’s my personal summary of the secret societies we know of at this point, their known members, and my interpretation of their various purposes. I could be really, really wrong on that last, of course.
Patriots – Taravangian, Adrotagia, Mrall, etc.; Graves, Danlan, Moash, Rill, unnamed others. Purpose: save some remnant of humanity at any cost by following the Diagram.
Ghostbloods – Thaidakar, Iyatil, Mraize, Jin, Luesh; ties to Lin Davar, Tyn, unnamed others. Purpose: unknown; possible extra-Rosharan goals; worldhoppers are involved. Some members, at least, are definitely opposed to the Sons of Honor.
Sons of Honor – Restares, Amaram, Pama, unknown others; Gavilar? Purpose: to return the dominance of the Church by putting the world in a crisis (returning the Voidbringers) which will force the Heralds to return.
Enivsagers – Teft’s family, possible others; may all be dead now. Purpose: to trigger the return of the Knights Radiant by returning the Voidbringers. Possible connection to the Sons of Honor?
Skybreakers – Nalan, Szeth, Helaran; it’s not clear that the group Helaran sought out is the same as the one Nalan brings Szeth into. Purpose: Nalan may be trying to avoid the return of the Voidbringers/Desolation by destroying all potential Knights Radiant, or he may have other purposes for what he’s doing. The group Helaran belonged to was trying to kill Amaram, so they may be opposed to the goals of the Sons of Honor.
Seventeenth Shard – Many worldhoppers, including Galladon, Demoux, and Baon; possibly Hoid’s “old friend, the dragon;” possibly Khriss & Nazh; many others unknown at this time. Purpose: unknown.
Knights Radiant – Jasnah, Shallan, Kaladin, Lift, Renarin, Dalinar. Not a fully united group as yet. Purpose: to defend humanity against the powers of Odium. (IMO)
We have no clue whether Shallan’s mother and her friend Dreder were associated with one of these groups, or if they belonged to yet another organization. There are also the Stone Shamans, but we have no idea if they seek to influence events across the planet, or merely to do whatever-they-do in Shinovar as per usual.
Does Shallan like ordinary rain that brings life without destruction because her order is closer to Cultivation, while Kaladin likes storms because the Stormfather is a part of Honor?
Personally I dont like the idea that Lightweaving should encompass the creation of sounds because sound is also a “waveform”. Light is electromagnetic radiation and sound is an alteration of density in a medium – a mechanical wave. The creation of these have very little in common. If Lightweaving would allow the creation of mechanical waves it could be used to do all manner of crazy things and the creation of illusions would not be its central feat anymore… If sound should be possible for a Lightweaver, the explanation would better be more on the “magical aspect of illusion as cheating of senses” side than on the “physical science” side…
@20: Alice, I don’t remember the Envisagers being about returning the Voidbringers, wasn’t that plan limited to Gavilar’s group? The Envisagers tried to become surgebinders by putting themselves in life-threatening situations, if I remember correctly, essentially confusing the process necessary for the Nahel bond with the one used for allomancers (pre-Harmony).
@20 Thanks for the handy breakdown, Alice! (And for posting these awesome recaps. I love reading them every week!) Of all the secret groups, I feel like the Sons of Honor are the most clueless. They just seem to know less about what’s going on in the world. To me, this also means that they are the most easily manipulated by other groups. (I admit that it’s been a year since I read the book so I may be forgetting some important details that contradict this.)
I will also be interested to find out how much Galivar knew and what his opinions were on everything. Sometimes it seems like he was scratching at things he didn’t understand, but that may just be because we have never been given a full accounting of his motivations.
@22 I am also slightly dissatisfied with the casual “oh yeah, you can make sounds too for some reason” info drop from Pattern. I imagine once Sanderson gets more into how it works int he next book it will seem more reasonable.
@21: birgit – I see that Kaladin like the Highstorms because he gets a charge out of the stormlight in the air. Rather like seasonal depression in reverse. Much like he goes into a depression during the Weeping because there is no atmospheric stromlight. So he’s probably been drawing it in on an unconscious level for years.
As for Shallan, I’m not sure. I would put it down to “rain makes things grow.” Since she is a botanist, after the rain is when things are the most lush.
Torvald_Nom @23 – Alice, I don’t remember the Envisagers being about returning the Voidbringers, wasn’t that plan limited to Gavilar’s group?
Heh. I know what you mean. None of the examples Teft gave of their behavior fit into that aspect, do they? I wouldn’t have remembered it myself, but I didn’t have much in my notes, so I went back to reread relevant bits when I could – including Chapter 71, of course:
So either Brandon had his wires crossed, or Teft had his wires crossed, or they did other stuff that Teft hasn’t (yet?) told us. That’s all I can figure. IIRC, Teft was pretty young when everything went down, so he might not remember correctly, or he might not have had the chance to observe the other stuff that would have been aimed at the Voidbringers.
@20
Thank you for the list of groups! I’ve been meaning to either look for that or make one myself for a while. There are just so many groups all crisscrossing each other. It sound like to me that difference between the Envisangers and the Sons of Honor are that the Sons of Honor are the lighteyed group and the Envisangers are the darkeyed group. They seem to have almost the same goals. The church gets it’s power from the Heralds and the Knights so returning either of those would to a degree return the power of the church.
@21
I’ve also found it interesting the feels that Kaladin and Shallan have toward the different intensity of rain. I’ve made into my personal head canon that it’s due to there affinity for either cultivation or honor but I don’t think it’s said straight out anywhere.
Re: Mraize being Thaylan
The way that Mraize read it, I felt like Marize was using Rosharian words that were closest to what his relationship to Iyatil that would be understood. Like it wasn’t naturally what he label the relationship but this how it would be clear to others. I guess Marize being world-hopper doesn’t disclude him from being originally from Thaylenah, he could have just been off planet for so long that his current speech patterns no longer fully match with Thaylen people anymore. Personally I’m going to wait for more information on Mraize before getting fully on board with Mraize being Thaylan but it has possibilities.
@22 Kah-thurak, you are correct that there is a fundamental difference between light and sound. Light is the propagation of certain electro-magnetic waves in space, while sound is the propagation of a pressure or density wave in a physical medium. The electromagnetic perturbations in space that is manifested as light are perpendicular (transverse) to the direction of propagation, whereas, the sound waves are along the propagation direction (longitudinal). Nonetheless, the two fundamentally different phenomena can be linked by an appropriate device. For example, a series of light pulses on a suitable absorbing membrane enclosing a sealed volume will generate a pulsed flexure of the membrane due to heating of the volume and thereby generate a pressure wave in air that is manifested as sound.
How such controlled sound can be generated by some act of will is, of course, not really a physical manifestation. Then, again, neither is the generation of a visual illusion that can be thought of as a hologram. Somehow, the storm-light energy stored in gems is converted to the light energy comprising the visual illusion. It seems that some storm-light energy can also be converted to sonic energy. Sanderson can certainly not provide a mechanism for such manipulations (its magic), but he does try to relate his magical constructions to real phenomena. So, I don’t believe that it is merely the result of the manipulation of the mentality of the observers.
Many thanks to all for the Secret Society review here in the comments. Brandon must keep very good notes on who’s who in the Cosmere to keep these groups straight. Plus I suspect that the various groups are constantly trying to manipulate/use all the other groups by infiltrating and other means of deception. Therefore anything we find out in the text is suspect.
One question – is Jasnah involved in any of the groups other than being a Radiant herself? She’s obviously aware of them seeing as she was working to assassinate many of them. Was she working independently in that? Strangely it seems she’s not aware of Taravangian and the Diagram despite all the time she spent studying in his city. Of course she could know all about it but hasn’t revealed that knowledge yet. She’s sneaky like that.
I think Jasnah was an independent operative and I actually think that other than the Ghostbloods and maybe the Sons of Honor she didn’t know about the other groups. It’s possible that she knew of the Sons of Honor because I think Galivar was in that group but she never talks about them. I’m interested in seeing why there is bad blood between Jasnah and the Ghostbloods. Did they try to kill a member of her family earlier? What lead to them trying to kill her instead of trying to recruit her?
kei_rin @27 – wrt Mraize… Yeah, I just don’t think we have enough information to be entirely sure whether he’s from modern Thaylenah, old/ancient Thaylenah, or somewhere else with adopted words. At one point, Shallan specifically thinks that she can’t place his accent, which definitely argues against modern-Thaylenah-origin; she’s spent a lot of time around Thaylens.
Also in the for-what-it’s-worth department, we have seen one man who was specifically described as a Thaylen who shaved his head and eyebrows: Taravangian’s “bodyguard” Mrall. There seem to be certain other similarities to Mraize (besides the name) that might indicate a second – non-mercantile – culture of some sort within Thaylenah. Most of the Thaylens we’ve seen do the long eyebrows and are involved in trade of one sort or another… but maybe those are just the ones who go out and about most, the ones the rest of the world sees. Mrall isn’t exactly bloodthirsty, but he certainly doesn’t have any problems when observing the bloodbath they created in Jah Keved.
This is not someone I personally can relate to. But he seems to be perfectly content with brutality, as long as it serves the intended purpose; it looks to me as though he has this in common with Mraize. A few pages later, there’s this:
So… the concept of the hunter & hunted, and “general brutality for the cause is acceptable,” does seem very much a part of Mrall’s make-up. There’s also the fact that Thaylenah hold five Shardblades and three full suits of Plate; somebody must do some fighting.
Perhaps there’s even enough cultural difference between the warrior/hunter set and the trader set that there is a different accent.
All that to say that the trader-Thaylens we’ve seen may not be a full representation of the national culture…
Mraize is certainly a worldhopper, but being a worldhopper says nothing about what his homeworld is. Personally, I still believe he is Thaylen. Whether that means he was born on Roshar is far from clear.
And as for Iyatil, I’m sure readers will have new theories about her next year.
Which is not surprising really. Brandon is pretty good at subverting the “Planet of Hats” trope. As soon as you think he’s defined an entire culture with a single characteristic he goes and shows some exceptions.
Peter!! There you go teasing us again! First today on FB and now here.
sigh… perk of your job. Watching the rest of us cry for more.
Will people be allowed to posts the SA tidbits Brandon will be sharing while on tour?
@@@@@ 31Wetlandernw … Interesting the names of the shaved eyebrow Thaylens. (Mr)all & (Mr)aize. If they are both truly Thaylen I don’t think the Spelling is a coincidence. The spelling may have some cultural significance in Thaylenah.
Braid_Tug @34: During the tour, Brandon will most likely be reading from Dalinar’s first flashback chapter in SA3. He read it for the first time at Worldcon, and he asked people not to put videos on YouTube or do any transcriptions—until all the stops of fhe tour are over. So, in late October after he gets back from the UK, it will be OK to share.
Alice @20:
I constructed and posted a similar summary right after the book came out, to keep the various groups straight in my head. We agree on most of the classifications, except for a couple of nitpicks:
First, all the various groups/secret societies have reasons for their actions that they consider patriotic, however misguided. I think it may be much more accurate to call Tharavangian and his followers Diagramists (as they believe in and try to enforce the precepts in The Diagram) rather than to call them by an inaccurate name that can reasonably be applied to all the groups.
Second, I am not convinced that the group you are calling Skybreakers is a single group with the objectives you are assigning to them. We know there is a secret society that calls itself Skybreakers, and that Helaran Davar was suspected of being a member. We know nothing else about them. Then, we have also seen the ex-Herald Nalan who, possibly with a few assistants, seems to be going around trying to kill some, but not all proto-radiants (I have a sneaky suspicion that he is trying to eliminate, specifically, proto-EdgeDancers, but that is a subject for another discussion). The thing is, other than the fact that Nalan used to be the patron Herald of the Knights Radiant order of Skybreakers, there doesn’t seem to be any connection at all between Nalan’s activities and the activities of the group of which Helaran was a member. When Nalan said to Szeth “I doubt I have ever found a man more worthy of the Skybreakers than you”, it is clear to me, at least, that Nalan is speaking of the KR order of Skybreakers, and may not necessarily mean he thinks Szeth belongs to the existing secret society that calls itself Skybreakers.
For now, I would suggest that it may be safer to classify them as two separate unrelated secret societies that may be called Skybreakers (Helaran’s group) and Nalanists (Nalan’s group). The latest recruit into the Nalanists (but not necessarily the Skybreakers) may be, of course, Szeth.
@36
I had this open while having a conversation with co-works about lunch. Needless to say the conversation was derailed long enough for me gush about Stormlight Archive and why must October be so far away!?
Peter @36: Is this official confirmation, then, that Book 3 will be Dalinar’s book and not Szeth’s? Or has that been confirmed earlier?
@39: Brandon made the announcement via Twitter / Face Book in July. Anyways he wrote the flashbacks for all three characters in SA 3-5, and Dalinar’s fit best.
I found this Tweet on his website:
BrandSanderson Thu Jul 16
That’s a wrap! Dalinar flashbacks are done. 55,000 words/15 chapters. I’m very excited about them. Still a lot to do on the book, though.
http://brandonsanderson.com/tweets-july-2015/
Thanks. As I must be one of the few people left in North America who are not on Facebook or Twitter, I missed the announcement.
Alisonwonderland @37 – re: the Skybreakers, I’m not at all certain that the two groups (those Helaran joined, and those Nalan appeared to be offering Szeth membership) are the same one. I guess I didn’t make that clear enough. Nalan is going around with, at various times, 1) someone I assume to be Kalak; 2) various minions, some with Shardblades; 3) Szeth. The minions may or may not belong to the group Helaran sought out. We just don’t know. I suspect not, but have no real basis for that suspicion.
As for the group I refer to as “Patriots,” like all the other groups I merely used the name they gave themselves.
Alisonwonderland @@@@@ 41: You don’t have to be on Twitter to follow BWS’s tweets. Just go to https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson and you can see his tweets. (I’m not on FB or Twitter, either; that’s how I keep track of such things.)
Okay, I understand. Though, in order to properly distinguish between the different groups by us readers, I still think the much more evocative “Diagramists” better serves the purpose than “Patriots”.
Speaking of Secret Societies:
We should add Wit/ Hoid to the list. He definitely deserves a category of his own! Plus he’s an effective one man show, but his true purposes are unknown.
What do y’all think? Does Hoid belong to his own Secret Club?
@40 Brandon had said at one point that he was going to write the three flashback arcs before deciding, but he ended up just writing Dalinar’s and they worked so well that he didn’t continue that plan and just picked Dalinar (for that and other reasons).
Wetlandernw @20, Alisonwonderland @37 and radiantflower @45
Thanks for the summary, Alice!
I include Worldsingers in my list. We don’t know much about them, other than they travel around Roshar learning about local cultures and spreading their experiences to other lands when they travel on–cultural diversity. That seems innocuous at worst. What harm could a group that spreads cultural diversity be? So I get why they are overlooked on the big-bad list of planetary and off-world groups trying to manipulate events/politics/history on Roshar, and the Cosmere in general. However, and this is a huge “but” IMHO, the fact that Hoid is a member of this group (kinda addresses radiantflower’s desire) is sufficient justification to elevate the status of Worldsingers to something higher than “harmless” on the watch list. They may well be tied to the Terris Worldbringers (Keepers now, since the LR ostensibly wiped out the Worldbringers).
The Worldbringers/Keepers also seem pretty innocuous as a group. They are dedicated to the preservation of knowledge in metalminds. Sazed, Tindwyl and Damosi were known members. If the two groups do turn out to be tied together, and Hoid is involved with both groups, then I’d ratchet watch-list status up another notch. I don’t think that could possibly be a coincidence. Further, I’d speculate Hoid is up to something very subtle on the Cosmere scale with these groups, rather than local political machinations on Roshar and Scadrial. He has other options for those latter activities and uses them. He was (and still is) very much involved manipulating the course of history on Scadrial personally, just as he is on Roshar now. It wasn’t all about him grabbing a bead of Lerasium, if that was even one of his goals in the first place. YMMV. Uhhh, maybe Hoid does deserve a category all to himself on the list. ;-)
Alisonwonderland
I like Diagramists b/c it’s easy to remember and it has a great association with what they are about. I’d include the Silent Gatherers as a society within the Diagramists too.
@Ways. Great catch on the World Bringers ( from the Mistborn series, in case some are not familiar ) and the World Singers in the Stormlight Archive. It surely can’t be coincidental that they have similar names……hmmm lots to think about
@48
I didn’t come up with the possibility of a connection between the groups, even Brandon publically stated the similarity in the names is no coincidence. But I am lobbying heavily for consideration of Worldsingers as an up-to-something secret society (at least on Roshar, more likely a Cosmere-level conspiracy) b/c Hoid is involved. We just don’t have a clue as to what it is yet. I’d be surprised if Hoid’s goal with the Worldsingers is introducing Horneater cooking to Iri and Shin religious beliefs to Jah Kaved.
@@@@@ Alice – this is the wrong Chapter but I did some research in your “red head in a violet dress.” I asked famed stylist Brad Goreski of the Fashion Police and he said it is entirely possible for the look to work. There are so many shades of purple available that there is no reason for a red head not to be able to wear purple or any color for that matter. It’s just a matter of choosing the right shade.
I also did a random but entirely unscientific survey of red heads (3 in fact) and all three said they will definitely rock a violet dress.
Hope this helps your dilemma.
Not to mention violet on a red hair is striking as most people would not expect it… I wished Adolin had mentally commented on it.
As for the chapter at hand, I’ll admit I do not have much to say. The Ghostblood infiltration was not my favorite part of the book, though it was interesting to see Shallan put Lightweaving to good use. At the times, I had been slightly annoyed she would succeed this easily, but I suppose it can be justified.
However, the one tip bit that hit me when I read that chapter was Shallan buying fruits with a very large gem and not realizing common people used much lesser cuts. She marveled at how inexpensive this treat was and how it would not even been considered an expense in her impoverish family. This was an important quote for me as, through the flashback, a lot of emphasis is placed over the fact Shallan’s family is poor. It was good to be reminded her family was poor by lighteyed standard. By darkeyed standard, they were rich. The distinction is important to make as I have read the argument being made Shallan would be a better match to Kaladin because they were both poor…. No. Shallan was not poor. She lived a life of luxuries, but not one as rich as she should have. For Kaladin though, it would be the same.
Edit: Sorry was the fruit buying in this chapter? I suddenly am not too sure….
Hi Gepeto – I’m quiet also because I am waiting. For next chapter when all three of there are there
@46, Peter: Thanks for the clarification.
@51: nope, fruit was a few chapters back. Last time she was with the Ghostbloods. But you make a good point about what “poor” means. It’s a sliding scale.
Redhead in purple: my mom is one, of the dark auburn color. She looks great in purple.
@52: I feel awful for nip-picking on those chapters, but I truly have not much to say on that one… I too am keen on the menagerie chapter, such a great one and we are getting near one of the most awesome chapter of the entire series: the 4 on 1 duel. Too bad we have to suffer part 4 afterwards… I am not too keen on the “Kaladin brooding in prison” for way too many chapters and the “chasm scenes”.
@53: Oh I figured as much. The fruit part was my favorite item out of the “Shallan disguises herself as Veil” plot line, for the reason I mentioned. It gave such an interesting perspective. When we are within Shallan’ POV, she always describes her family as struggling, as being poor, etc. This particular scenes just shows us Shallan truly is a lighteyed of medium-high rank. Whereas she did not receive the proper upbringing, she still is ages away from the darkeyes folks, even the citizen who may have been richer than her family, but still lived in a different world.
It makes us then ponder over how far of the Kholins are from Shallan… Clearly, she is intimidated by them and she is not used to the luxuries into which the Highprinces are living. Another cleavage. If Shallan is able to walk into a darkeyes market and feel completely out of place while pondering over the fact she indeed lived in another world, what would it be for the Kholins do to the same? It puts in perspective certain things in a much favorable was, things who are often dismissed in commentaries across the Web.
SA03 will not be published next year. Unless Iyatil appears in Dalinar’s flashback scenes BWS will read, interpreting Peter @32 could mean, that Iyatil will show up in the third Wax/Wayne story, right?
Do we know any other cosmere stories/books of Brandon to be published next year?
travyl @55 – Ummm… why do you say SA03 will not be published next year? Did I miss an announcement? (Which is not unheard of, by any means!)
As of WorldCon, he was saying that he expected to finish the writing by the end of February, and get the book out in December. That would give him a pretty crunchy beta/revision/gamma/publishing schedule, but they did it with WoR, so it’s not impossible, just difficult. If there isn’t anything else in the queue, though (unlike this year!) it could still be done.
I could be wrong, but I assumed that Peter was referring to the projected December 2016 SA3 release.
ChocolateRob @10 re: Khriss – Well, but Baon is considered tall on Roshar, and while he’s definitely taller than Khriss, the difference not enough that she could possibly be described as “short” by Shallan, who has claimed to be 5’7″.
I recently viewed a questions and answered from Brandon in Spokane. He did state he needs to finish the first draft by the end of February in order to hope to meet the Christmas 2016 dead line. Neither he nor Peter looked confident about it. They were both laughing and Brandon stated he will need to do some serious writing to get it done on time. He also stated that if we don’t see the bar at 100% on his web site by the end of February, then we can forget the 2016 release.
Early 2017 seems more probable to me.
I hope we’ll get that novel in between though.
@56 Ah but are those puny Earthican feet or mighty Rosharan feet? Obviously their feet are bigger to properly balance their eleven (puny Earthican) foot height. Numuhukumakiaki’aialunamor’s feet are probably two foot and his height is properly measured in arms lengths.
Clearly other world hoppers disguise how short they are with their native equivalent of light-weaving. Khriss/Iyatil/Whoever just has more confidence in her relative tinyness.
;)
When Rosharans worldhop they have to stay in three story buildings with the middle floors removed, if they take a nap on the beach they have to deal with waking up to discover that their hair and clothes have been nailed down by the natives
Along with the writing he’s doing on SA3, Brandon has just finished the Calamity revisions (it’ll probably go into gamma sometime in the next month or two, but shouldn’t need much more of his direct involvement). He’ll soon be doing revisions from the beta on The Bands of Mourning, and next month he’ll be doing a fairly extensive tour (including both US and UK stops) for Shadows of Self. No information yet on whether he’ll be touring for TBoM and Calamity, but he usually does some signings with each new release.
We’re getting Shadows of Self in October 2015, The Bands of Mourning in January 2016, Calamity in February 2016, and the last Alcatraz in June 2016. Those are all solid. Was there some other novel you think we ought to be getting in addition to all of that? Because at this point, if he’s on a roll with writing SA3, it seems a bit silly to hope that he’ll break off and write something else. And when he starts something else after finishing the first draft of SA3, it would be a bit odd to get it through all the hoops and published before December, unless it’s an ebook novella. I can just about see him pulling off the third Legion that way, if the ideas are just waiting for him to have a chance to write them up.
SA3 publishing date will depend totally on how well the writing goes. If he finishes it by the end of February, he should (in one sense) wait until the next February to publish it… but he won’t. You know that Team Sanderson (especially Peter) and the beta team will do everything in their power to make that December thing happen. That’s what they do.
Looks like Brandon’s website is not updated. Shows Bands of Morning at 72%. Yet according to a Peter FB post, it sounds done.
So the 21% for SA 3 could go higher.
Thankfully, Brandon can write while on the road. The flights to and from the UK for his October tour should be prime writing time.
I’m going to look forward to whatever reading he will give at JordanCon in April and not worry about next December. He’s already the fastest and most productive writer of his time.
ChocolateRob @58 – ::gigglesnort:: Now I have all sorts of new images in my head…
@59: Brandon did state he would try to push for a novel in between now and the release of SA3. I am not inventing anything, there are is own words. Now I agree it sounds implausible, but he did state it, just a few months ago.
I personally do not hope for any new material until 2017. It seems more realistic. If the team cam bring it up before, than I will cheer, but I understand how much work needs to be made before they get there. However, there is a part of me which is disappointed he needs to use up so much of his time to review stories which are not related to SA. I know, I know, I know, bad, bad, bad horrible me, but I can’t help it.
@62 Correct me if I’m wrong but is this what you are referring to? In which case he actually mentions wanting to get out a novella to help tide people over, not a novel.
@63: That’s what I meant, but I’ll admit I have not idea what the difference is between a novel and a novella…..
@@@@@ Gepeto a novella is shorter than a typical novel but still longer than a short story I think maybe between 10-50 k words (I forget the exact standard length) but you can easily see the difference between that and a 150-400k novel that Sanderson typically writes
@64
A novella is a short story, anywhere between 20,000 and 50,000 words or so. A novel is anything that longer than a novella, most are close to 80,000 or Stormlight Archive length.
OK thanks people.
Storms I am worried about the future of SA… Brandon said, again, on Reddit, the main POV characters for the back five are the announced flashback characters and he confirmed again at least one of them will be dead… I am so mixed up. How can a dead character be a major POV? Why do I feel flashback POV and main POV are all mixed up? Are they supposed to be the same? I sincerely don’t get it. I should stop reading all of those future plans for SA because the more I read, the more I worry and the less I understand.
I just want to keep on reading about the same characters. I don’t want to know “everyone dies in book 5 because none are coming back as characters”.
@67
I think as we get farther into the book series, who the main POV character is going to be harder to tell. It was easily for the first Kaladin has the majority of the story not even taking into account the flashback sequences. For the second book, I think Shallan only has the majority of the story if you take into account the flashback sequences. I think as we get more into the story the main story line will be passed along between different characters a lot more fluidly and progressively we’ll have a harder time telling who the who the main POV character is .
Like with WoT the first book was centered around Rand, if Rand wasn’t apart of it you didn’t see it happen. But later books it split off naturally and you no longer had one main POV character.
This would mean that what makes a later SA book a particular characters book is all tied into the flashback sequences. So if a character, for example Taln or Renarin, dies in book 3 he could still have a book if the flashbacks for him happen in book 4. He’s no longer a main POV character but we’ll still what happened in the past with him.
I don’t think we’ll have to worry about everyone dying because Brandon has said that he’s already introduced us to all of the main POV characters by the end of book two and doesn’t want to give too many main POV characters to follow. So he’s not likely going to kill them all. So we have a group of main POV characers and subset group of flashback characters and at least one of the flashback characters( but not all of them) is going to be dead by the end of the series.
Wetlander, the question was already answered, so just to clarify:
my statement about SA03’s publishing date was pure conjecture based on the fact that BWS is nowehre near to done with his first draft and that he stated, that the publishing date will be a year after him being “done”. I know the man’s a machine, but I’m hoping for a good and long book ;) so the writing and the subsequent rewritings up to draft number (?) has got to take some time.
I will patiently wait and will be pleasantly suprised if they announce a christmas 2016 gift.
Long time reader, first time poster. BS has also said we get five perspectives on Gavilar’s death. We’ve had Szeth and Jasnah, who do you think/hope the others will be? Dalinar? (it would be great to read a drunk PoV. Unlike some WoT fans, I love Brandon’s humor ;-). Maybe Elhokar? (I would love to get into his head. I see him as trying to do the right think and not knowing how, I can identify with that ;-).
How about Gavilar’s perspectives? That would help us understand so much that is now unclear… A PoV from a now dead person doesn’t boter me at all…..
@68: There has been more answers on that pesky Reddit thread… Brandon said the characters we currently love (those who survive that is) will still be part of the second arc, but as it happens many years later, their role may have changed. That’s much better, the initial answer sounded so morbid. I guess part of my rant is due to the fact I dissociate the flashback and the main story arc characters. Having a dead main story arc character is, technically, impossible unless we end talking to his ghost which would be seriously weird. The phrasing of the whole thing was… peculiar to say the least.
Yeah, I hope you are right about those main character POV as I tend to irrationally worry the current POV characters would disappear from the story in order to make room for the others. Brandon did cal the flashbacks, the “flavor” of the books, though when I think of WoR, I don’t think of it as solely Shallan’s book… I am not overly found of that particular flashback sequence, so I focused on many other things about the book which makes it, in my mind that is, not just her book.
@70: For the last three POV on Galivar’s death, here is a list of, I believe, potential candidates: Elhokar, Amaram, Eshonai and Galivar himself. I am convinced we are going to get Eshonai and I yearned to have Amaram. I doubt we are going to get Dalinar as he was drunk when it happened: wouldn’t be very interesting. Other candidates I think unbelievably unlikely: Adolin and Renarin. Adolin needs to be told by his father what truly happened which implies he was not there (he does not know his father was dead drunk which means he did not see him). Renarin was a child: surely the boys have been asked to retire early on and we soundly asleep when it happened (it was late). Adolin would have been old enough to stay around, I think, but it does not appear as if he did: maybe he just went with his brother.
So probably among the four I named or perhaps Ash, if she was around.
My own theory is that the “dead” flashback character is Eshonai, though the body that once held the personality / consciousness of Eshonai may not be completely dead. Last seen falling into the chasm, I fear what might befall Eshonai. Remember this epigraph from chapter 24:
“Decayform destroys the souls of dreams.
A form of gods to avoid, it seems.
Seek not its touch, nor beckon its screams, deny it.
Watch where you walk, your toes to tread,
O’er hill or rocky riverbed
Hold dear the fears that fill your head, defy it.
–From the Listener Song of Secrets, 27th stanza”
I feel this is the root of the Listener’s fear of their dead. Or is it, perhaps, their fear of Decay Spren? What would you call a mostly dead listener who bonds with a Decay Spren during a high storm?
@72
I never thought about the Listener’s respect for the dead being based in fear of rot spren before. That is an interesting concept. I don’t think we’ve heard the last of Eshonai. I think she might actually sill be alive. I feel like unless someone is stabbed through the spine and then dismembered we can’t really count them as dead. And all Eshonai did was fall off a cliff which might be something that her stormform self can survive. But the idea that Eshonai might have traded her stormform spren for rot spren and still be trapped in form tied to her old gods is kinda sad. I really want her to get free of that influence.
In this chapter, Though it happened mostly off screen, the relationship between Pattern and Shallan is also growing stronger as they teach other. And that is one thing that I have noticed between the two of them. Pattern and Shallan have a student/teacher relationship and they see-saw on who is taking the role.
Meanwhile, Syl mothers Kaladin more than she acts as his mentor. Their relationship is less defined. Is it because Pattern and Shallan have been together longer than Kaladin and Syl are.
For those who has read my personal angst on those pesky flashbacks, here is a new one from Brandon, taken again, from Reddit. It was in answer to someone asking about Rysn’s future.
Rysn will appear again. Not getting a book does not mean someone isn’t an important character, just that I don’t consider them as having a flashback sequence worthy of structuring a book around.
So that’s interesting as, so far, Brandon has put so much emphasis on those flashback characters it felt as if anyone not getting a book was doomed to be unimportant and secondary. I’m happy to get a confirmation on that though I still yearn for some flashbacks.
I also figured the Rysn fans will be happy to hear she will appear again and presumably in the second half as the initial question was pertaining the second half.
Hola!
What I took away from this chapter is how naive Shallan still is. She may have killed her mother, but she was very young then, buried the memory deep inside her mental safe, and has been shielded from the world by her brothers and father.
She is taking on much more than she is ready for. She is still very young, impressionable, and self centered. I don’t mean self centered in a bad way, just not able to see situations from other points of view. She’s not adult enough to allow for other’s point of view and perceptions. Once she does realize she should have looked for assassins following her coach and parshman, it’s too late. And the price was very high. She never even gave them a thought. It never crossed her mind that the ghost bloods would cover their own tracks by making her death look like an accident involving innocents. She is still only thinking of herself. Not necessarily a bad thing, just a mark of someone who is still young.
She has only entered the world recently, without parental guidance, and is stumbling along messily. Later, Kaladin marvels that she suffered so much but is still smiling. Yet WE know her smile is forced, not a real smile, just a “it’s all I can do to keep it together, barely, because Pattern wants me to face my past which I’m not ready to face yet” smile.
As to all these secret societies. I must admit, there are so many I lose track of them. So I was glad to see some of your recaps of them. Then, I got all confused again. I think y’all are bringing up even more of them! I think I’ll go back to just not worrying about them too much yet, until they come up again in future books. Except maybe the ghost bloods and the diagramists… And the world singers, I like them…and Tek’s family cult…oh and Amaram’s sect…wait, I’m lost again!!!!
No new book till possibly 2017? Whoa! Sanderson! You mean you write OTHER books! How dare you! ;) actually, I have read other Samderson books and see the connections, but I didn’t realize SA was in progress when I started. Oh well, if it’s good, I’ll wait. But I think I’ll be a grandmas when it’s all done!!
Web/ Tech people
That last post took a long time to show up. I was stuck in refresh limbo for over five minutes. And the post is the one without editing. I though I fixed “grandmas” and other typos.
Frequently I get stuck in refresh limbo and have to reopen in another window, and that’s just to read the other comments (and Alice’s lovely commentary/summary).
Just to let you know …
FWIW, Peter’s comment on one of Brandon’s facebook posts today is that they’re targeting November 2016 for the new SA book… if Brandon can get the writing finished. So that’s still the official line.
@72: Decayform sounds scary. Not looking forward to seeing it.
I don’t see the Listener’s treatment of their dead as fear. I see it as a respect.
The anger they directed at Bridge 4 for the desecration of the dead and Shen’s reaction did not strike me as fear driven anger. More the anger we would have if someone robbed grandma’s grave.
But it does make me wonder if the policy of not touching or moving the dead extends to the one who die at home. Or is it only for the battle dead? Because if they don’t move the bodies who die in bed, that could lead to problems inside a house.
@76: I knew the books were not done when I started. After waiting a lifetime for Wheel of Time to finish, I was really reluctant to start another unfinished epic series. (I’m still trying to avoid them by other authors, but keep running into them. ) Yet Tor offered a good deal on the e-Book before launching a new re-read and here I am. Plus, Sanderson being one of the fastest writers I’ve ever encountered helps a lot. I know it will be a long road before SA 10 is finished, but I see a much shorter one before SA 5 is done.
Considering the waiting times on Rothfuss and GRRM to finish – early 2017 would be nothing. If SA 3 has to be pushed back.
Think of all the steps that happen: Pre-writing / writing / 1st edits (Brandon & Peter) / alpha readers / 2nd edits & writing fixes pointed out by alphas / beta readers / 3rd edits / Then “the Editor” edits (Moshe Feder) / Brandon revises things as needed – goes back & forth with Feder as needed / Gamma readers & copy editing / Final draft / & printing.
And this is just an outline of the possible steps. Even if not much work is needed for the edits – just going through the book takes time. And last time WoR almost broke Tor’s book binding machine. So it takes extra-long to make a print run for the public.
@77: I flagged your comments so the mods will see it. The delays are annoying. Happens more to me when on the mobile version. Then the comments disappear, won’t load, or jump in crazy fashions.
@79 I know the publishing process takes time. I survived waiting for Harry Potter to vanquish Lord Voldemort! Then I swore I won’t start a new series unless it was finished. I also took advantage of the ebook deal for SA and discovered Sanderson that way. I’ve read a couple of his other series while I wait. But I haven’t read the Wheel of Time yet. Maybe I’ll go ahead and get into that one.
Homestly, I really don’t mind waiting. I know it will be good. I’m already invested so there’s nothing else to do. :
I finally got my daughter to read Elantris. She’s into all those dystopian novels so I figured she’d like it. Sure enough, once started she couldn’t put it down.
Thanks for flagging my tech post. Sometimes it’s fine, other times I wait and wait….
I don’t think I’ve seen what seems like an obvious comparison here: Eshonai is the Rosharian equivalent of Marsh. A basically good person controlled by an evil Shardbearer who is the ultimate antagonist (as far as we can tell right now, anyway).
@81
I don’t know about others but I know that thinking of Eshonai as Marsh’s equivalent never occurred to me. I hope for Eshonai’s fate that it goes better for her than it did for Marsh. I wonder if we’ll see him later in SA?
79. Braid_Tug
As always you make good points. I agree that they show reverence for their dead and carefully avoid touching or disturbing those fallen in battle. I suggest this is related to a fear of rot spren or Decay Spren. Yes, they show anger when their dead are desecrated. I would be doubly angry if my friend was just killed, and, due to cultural mores, I was helpless to stop the desecration, because I wasn’t allowed to move the body to a secure area.
Interesting question regarding those who pass away at home. Good question for Sanderson.
Re: moving the bodies – it’s always possible that the origin of the tradition was the fear of rotspren turning you into Decayform, but (like so many things they once knew) the reason for the tradition was lost over the centuries.
What’s so scary about Decayform to me is that it’s said to also “of the gods”
I can’t think of anything more heart-wrenchingly tragic than the possibility that Odium somehow gets hold of their souls when they die. The screams part is probably the most unsettling.