Words of Radiance Reread: Chapter 58

Ah Kaladin, Kaladin, Kaladin…

How can you at times dedicate your life to protect your “chosen ones” and yet act like an entitled egocentric self-centered child at another time? I am sorry for many, but Kaladin was being incredibly selfish in this chapter: he thought of him, him and only him despite knowing there were greater issues at stake, despite having been made aware of the plan in advance. So all in all, Kaladin through it all into the sewer because his personal vendetta against Amaram was more important to him than dealing with the real threat posed by Sadeas. 

I simply cannot forgive Kaladin here. He spent half a book calling Adolin a “spoiled entitled child” when he is the one truly acting spoiled and entitled. It does not matter whether he believes he is in the right, he did not have the right to make such a demand. Heck, even Adolin did not have that right: he had to nearly die such to justify the king to give him a boon powerful enough to drag Sadeas into the arena. Kaladin was told these things, they ll took time to explain to him why it mattered, but no. Kaladin decided it didn’t, so he ruined it. If only he was seen as being remorseful afterwards, but no. He still thinks he was right. Storming man.

Lighteyed or darkeyes, you don’t ask for a boon, you do not demand a reward: you meekly wait for it to be granted to you and YES Kaladin was greatly rewarded for his effort. When raising children, it is one of the things you teach them: do not act such as to get a reward, do it because it is right. More importantly, do not ask to get a reward because you picked up your toys. You don’t behave well such as to get a new toy, you behave well because it makes you feel better about yourself, proud. Or at the very least, I tried to teach mine these things, so when I see Kaladin acting, I want to smack him onto the head. He totally deserved to be talked down by Dalinar and I was glad to read it. 

Elhokar, Elhokar, Elhokar. I love your commentary Alice. I did state, at some point, Elhokar was more or less acting as a bully. He does not know how to enforce authority any differently then by claiming he is the biggest and the strongest, hence all have to obey. It made me think of how he was raised as bullies don’t just happen. I was then taken back to this WoB where Brandon said Elhokar grew up among many very authoritative individuals… We can guess: Galivar, Navani, Jasnah… Little Elhokar was many years younger than his sister and many years older than his other closest relative, Adolin. Unlike Adolin, he did not get a younger brother to play with, so he was likely alone. One child within a family of push-overs with a father akin to a charismatic bully… so Elhokar ended up mimicking his only role model: his father, but he lacked the charisma. Perhaps he then tried to mimic his uncle, but he lack the battlefield prowess to make him appear fierce and dangerous. All that was left was the bully and a spoiled overgrown child who believes his status should grant him all rights. He is seriously misguided, to the point where I sincerely doubt he’ll ever make a decent king. 

I also think it is interesting to ponder on how the different Kholin families raised their young… Jasnah and Elhokar have both grown distant and somewhat cold towards their parents while Adolin and Renarin are both very close to their father. While Elhokar is seen to exhibit jealousy and anger, traits once shared by younger Dalinar, we see none of that in either Adolin nor Renarin. I, for one, am very interested in reading more about everyone’s childhood. I want to make link on how they raised versus how they turned up. 

@23: Perhaps Dalinar tried to give him lessons, but he was not receptive. Seeing how Dalinar grooms Adolin, I see it as unlikely he would not have tried to tutor/mentor his nephew, especially in the early years of his reign. It could be Elhokar did not want to hear what lessons were coming his way.

I have to agree with most commentaries. The fact we haven’t seen Dalinar try to teach anything to Elhokar does not mean it never happened, but based on Dalinar’s current behavior with his sons, it seems doubtful he made a worthy effort. His tutoring of Adolin mostly consisted of putting him in charge, stepping back and watch to see if he’d do well. However, Dalinar notes, early in WoK, his son has strong leadership qualities and a good sense of initiative while being loyal to the bone. All in all, Dalinar did not have to struggle much to teach Adolin: the boy naturally inherited good aptitudes to step into the role of a Highprince.

Adolin is a good leader and, even more importantly, an emphatic one who actually cares about his men.

Elhokar is neither. I suspect he grew up being pushed around a lot, so he ended up being a push-over. He is very self-centered and was likely spoiled as a child while Adolin (and Renarin) somehow didn’t turn out this way, which more or less destroys Kaladin attemps to make Adolin pass for a spoiled child. Others have mentioned his apparent lack of military prowess, to which I would answer we have not seen him in action much. Galivar is said to have been a superb fighter, so it is probable Elhokar failed to reach his heights, but it does not mean he is a poor fighter. I also suspect Elhokar has never put much effort into anything… Think of the kid who is smart enough on his own, but never ever make the effort to better himself and thus ends up being a rather dumb adult. This is how I envision Elhokar. He could have become a worthy person, but he was lazy, spoiled, pushed-over and thus ended up whiny, entitled and downright ineffective.

Can he change? I guess he can, but th amount of work required is huge. I don’t have faith he’ll ever be the king they currently need. Perhaps he would do, in times of peace, in a stable kingdom, but right now, I sincerely doubt he’ll be up to the task.

Of all Kholins, Adolin is the one with the strongest chances to make something out of that kingdom, providing he can surround himself with trusted advisors (Renarin *cough* Renarin) able to help him move through his strong emotional loops. He isn’t a bully like Elhokar or Dalinar, he’s a strong military figure, he’s smart enough to know when to ask for advice, he isn’t overly proud and he is downright empathic. People like him. He could be IT, once he matures more.

I wouldn’t say it would be a waste of character as if Adolin ever makes it to kingship, I suspect it’ll be in the second half of SA. In between now and then, many things can still happen.

@33: Elhokar has been a crown prince for a few years before he was made king. As crown prince, he was sometimes left alone to rule the kingdom, as illustrated in the Roshone’s disaster where Elhokar followed bad advice which resulted in Moash’s parents unjust death. At the time, Galivar was away and Dalinar was at the Nightwatcher. So yes, it does seem as if he had opportunity to learn how to lead while his father was still alive, but what example did he get?

Were Galivar and Dalinar truly good leadership examples? Both were bullies, tyrants who rules by being king of the mountain: they were bigger, badder, stronger than anyone else which allowed them to kick the competition back down the slope. Galivar could rely on his natural charisma and his bearing as a king while Dalinar can rely on the fact he is feared all across Roshar. True, he is trying, now, to be a good leader, but clues at hand seem to indicate he was not always such man.

So what did Elhokar learn during his formation years? That he needed to be the strongest, the meanest and the baddest man at the top of the food chain to ensure his leadership. Coupled with the fact he seems naturally lazy, paranoid and downright entitled with no measure of humility, you have the perfect recipe for a disaster. His little speech to Kaladin is also telling: why would the Almighty give him the position of king and not the abilities to do well? He does not think he should work towards bettering himself, he believes he should intrinsically know these things. He admits he doesn’t, at the very end, and ask Kaladin to teach him. To teach him what exactly? How to be a hero, how to be viewed as one….

We thus go back to the king of the mountain. He just does not get it. He may have come to kingship in his early twenties, but he is nearing on 30 now. He should have grown in between now and then.

I personally have little faith he could ever learn to be a good king. At best, he could learn to be a good puppet king, executing the order of someone wiser and better than him at kingship, but lacking the blood line. I have sincerely no idea where his story line is going, but since he is a minor character I doubt we’ll much growth from him. He’s likely to keep on being used as a background character or to die early on.

As for Adolin, I agree becoming king in the next book would be anti-climatic for his character. King seems as a background role that would befit any character with some measure of growth. It also is the continuity of what we expect: Adolin will be Highprince someday. King is just one step ahead. His arc for the first half of SA would be more interesting if it didn’t involve such position. However shall he survive the first five books, we are nearly guaranteed he won’t be playing a role into the second half. In that optic, king thus sound as not such a bad ending for his character. At least, we would get to hear about him some.

@34: Does a 20 years old young man have to be told he can’t demand a boon, he needs to wait for it to be awarded?

Does a 20 years old young man need to explained he can’t ask a high ranked member of nobility to duel him based on accusations he can’t prove?

No, he shouldn’t. It was obvious he couldn’t simply ask for a boon. Any individual with half a head, dark or light eyes, would have known that, but clearly Kaladin doesn’t.

Why?

I do think you have nailed some of it. He was raised in a privilege environment where he sat at the top of the food chain. He was raised to act entitled and to make demands. All in all, in how own little darkeyes bubble, he was spoiled. Among his little village, he was the “Adolin”, though I suspect Adolin had much stricter rules to obey growing up than Kaladin who was, essentially, left to do as he saw fit. As long as he spent a few hours a day to study, he basically did as he wished. Little wonder the other kids resented him: he was never seen putting up any work. Had Lirin been smarter, he would have enforce his son to spend his days studying, not just a few hours at night and he would have kept him busy at day instead of letting him fooling around with Laral… Oh wait. That what the plan now, wasn’t it?

This won’t be popular, but Kaladin is spoiled. Not materially spoiled as Adolin, but mentally spoiled, if such thing is possible. 

Why?

Kaladin never obeys orders unless he wants to. Kaladin does his own thing, in his own world and does not care of his actions have consequences on the larger scheme of things. He only thinks of what matters to him: his squad, his men, his vengeance. The side-carry was meant to protect his men, but doomed the army. His boon was meant to absolve his desire for vengeance and to deliver what he decided was needed justice, but doomed the plan to uproot Sadeas and ruined all of Adolin’s efforts.

Kaladin also makes demands and expects them to be granted. He has no respect for the established order as he thinks it is bias. It probably is, but this does not mean he should be disrespectful. 

Dalinar was right to tell Kaladin to, for once in his life, act like a soldier and obey to orders, if he still knows how to do this. Had it been Adolin, would have Dalinar been so patient with his insubordination? Oh no. He would have been put back in his place ages ago. In fact, we hardly ever see Adolin, our supposed spoiled child, make demands for himself. We have seen him ask for permission, but not downright ask to be granted anything. That’s something to think about.

Dalinar is not the only lighteye who runs a tight army. Hatham and Aladar are said to run similarly orderly and tight armies. We later learn Sebrarial does the same. Sadeas most notably sees his soldiers as expendable, but his views are not share by all. Thanadal and Bethab runs an army comprised of hired mercenaries, so they don’t give a damn about what happens to them.

All in all, Dalinar Kholin is not the only worthy individual in charge of a princedom. 

I can agree Kaladin has reasons… but I still cannot fully excuse his attitude. I keep telling my children there are no valid reasons to act entitled and petulant, why should I tolerate it in a grown man simply because he has pains? If someone behaves badly with me, does it give me the right to behave badly with other people? If someone yells at me, does it excuse me from yelling back? It is not how it works, hence I can’t give our dear Kaladin a free pass here. It does not matter how many good reasons I may or may not have to justify myself, if I behave badly, then I behave badly. The same goes for Kaladin. It does not matter if his command structure was garbage back in Amaram’s army: he is in one with a decent one. He is able to acknowledge that. He can’t be excused, not this easily. I can understand him, but I still disagree with him.

This being said, it is highly interesting Kaladin has so many fall-outs with consequences. At least, we can’t accuse him of being a Gary-Stu.

@43: I consider entitled and spoiled to be more or less the same thing. Kaladin has not been spoiled in a material way such as Adolin, but he has been spoiled in the way he has never been taught to take his place, to wait for his turn to talk, to not make persistent outright demands, to follow rules… Perhaps spoiled is not the right term, but that’s more or less the idea I tried to convey.

@44: I disagree Kaladin didn’t deserve punishment. When he tried the side-carry, it resulted in a high death roll elsewhere in the army as the bridgemen were intended as foils. They tried a strategy and it failed. 

What happened?

The lighteyed who was in charge was hanged.

Killed.

For one side-carry he did not even order, but allowed Kaladin to try. He died for Kaladin’s trial. 

Based on this, spending a few days in prison is a very mild punishment for demanding a boon to the king and publicly accusing a high ranked member of their society without offering any condemning proofs. 

Weeks in prison were exaggerated, but not a few days. I also do not get why the main cast should have been more emphatic and realize it was bad for Kaladin… Fine, Kaladin hates being put in prison, but he still deserved a punishment for his insubordination. It is a very tricky situation. On one side, he deserves a reward, on the other side, he deserves a punishment. They couldn’t simply let him get away with a talk and then Shards… That would have been baffling…

All in all, the imprisonment probably was the best solution. It just lasted way too long. 2-3 days would have been enough.

I can’t wait to see how they are going to punish Adolin in the next book… My fear is they are going to punish so hard, he won’t have any way to ever come back. 

As for Renarin, I sincerely do not know how they could have figure it out… They just thought he had a fit in the duel. It was impossible for them to know he was bonding a spren.

@46: All parents make mistakes. Lirin and Hesina made mistakes with Kaladin, just as Dalinar made mistakes with both Adolin and Renarin. This is normal and understandable.

Lirin made the mistake of not putting any rules on his son: he let him do as he say fit, he let him spend his time as he saw fit as long as he spent a few hours a day studying, he let him speak up when he shouldn’t, he let him talk back impertinently when he should have been called out for it, etc. All in all, Lirin didn’t set a hard enough discipline on his son and brought him up in a way making him feel justified to rebel against every single order.

I don’t blame Lirin, he did what he thought was best (seriously all parents end up screwing at some point, but we do our best), but he made a mistake and the result is Kaladin being unable to accept authority even when it is warranted. At his age, he should have learned that while he is “entitled” to rebel as much as he wants, that while he is “entitled” to speak up his mind in the most inappropriate of times, there are consequences to these actions. The world does not exist to follow Kaladin’s wishes. His liberty ends where someone’s else liberty starts (his liberty to demand a boon stops where Elhokar liberty to have him executed starts). That’s a lesson traditionally taught to children.

I agree Dalinar could have had Kaladin executed: the law dictate he should have been executed, but he was lenient. The imprisonment was a small punishment for what he did: a too long one, but still he deserved it.

As for Kaladin being the fulcrum: I agree he currently is, but I hope he won’t be in the next book. Time to change.

@48: I may be among the minority (when am I not in the minority, I wonder?) but I am tired of reading solely about Kaladin. The story is so centered on him, all other characters are deprived of growth. Even when action is led by other characters, it still ends up being about him. This was not his focus book and yet he was just as central as Shallan. 

I may be the only one, but when I read Epic Fantasy, I expect to read about a cast, not a single character. So far, the cast is reduced. This is fine, we are still in book 2, but if things remain the same for the next three books, I’ll be deceive, because this isn’t suppose to be the Kaladin Archive, but the Stormlight Archive. We are supposed to be acquainted with various orders, not just the Windrunners. 

I for one wish for Kaladin’s role to decline in the next book in order to make more room for the “other characters” in the series. I am not worried about Shallan, because I am quite sure she won’t have such a big role into the next book, but Kaladin… I sincerely hope he won’t get POV in every single part. 

@50: I did not mean Kaladin was not punished. I meant a mere offense such as permitting a bad strategy was punishable by death. In that optic, it seems logical a graver offense such as demanding a boon to a king and publicly accusing a man without proof would be equally punishable. Being imprison was a light sentence.

The fact Kaladin was also punish didn’t matter in the example above, what mattered was the officer who had little to do with it but agreeing with it was hanged. The reason I brought it forward was to illustrate how Alethi dealt with dissidence. Most people agree Kaladin should not have been punished at all for his asking of a boon. I disagree and I used this example to illustrate how, in their world, being imprisoned is a lesser punishment.

I was not omitting a fact. In the scope of the point I tried to make, talking about Kaladin’s punishment was pointless as it served no purpose. I also never stated he was to blame for Lamaril’s death. 

And I have not said a thing about Adolin. I never said I wished the story would center on him: I said I wished he would be an important character which is less than certain considering many facts. He is not guaranteed any character development unlike Kaladin who is guaranteed to play a major role into the next 3 books, which is why I talk about it so often. I also stated I wished future books wouldn’t center so much on Kaladin because we have other characters (I used plural) and by other I did not mean solely Adolin. I also meant Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah and pretty much everyone else. 

Shallan had only a part to play in one part out of two in WoK. Kaladin had a part to play in all parts of all books. Most of the action in WoR was around Kaladin, despite it being Shallan’s book. One of the critics I have read (not mine I must insist, simply thoughts others have expressed elsewhere) was that Kaladin was the one at the center of the last climax despite it not being his book, that Shallan’s role somewhat paled in comparison to Kaladin’s epic fight with Szeth. I am far from the only reader who thought the book revolved a lot around Kaladin despite it not being his. 

This is a statement not meant as a critic, a simple observation. However, after WoR, I personally want to read about the other characters more than Kaladin. This is a personal statement. I disagree he is the only one with depth. They all have depth, we have just not been privy to it just yet. 

We are going to read more about the other orders. My response where I state this isn’t the Kaladin Archive was in response to another post stating it would be great is the story remained strongly focused on him. Brandon’s plan has always been to focus on one order per book and one focus character per book. We already know who will be the focus of each book. 

I disagree the bridgemen were not part of the army: they were, but at the same time, they were considered expendable. There roles were to carry bridges quickly and to act as foils while the soldiers made their approach. They had a purpose. It is an awful one, but a purpose nonetheless.

As for Sadeas not carrying if they die, that is true, but he does not care if his other soldiers die. In fact, the majority of the lighteyes do not care about their death toll. I recently re-read the chasmfiend hunt chapter back in WoK and Elhokar’s reaction when he was brought the list of causalities was not much better. A few dispassionate words towards the men now being honored in the Tranquille Halls and nothing more. No emotion, no guilt, no nothing. Of course, that is better than Sadeas, but the fact remains they don’t seem affected by their human losses. Dalinar tries to maintain them to a minimum, but he is not seen mourning any of them either.

What Kaladin learned with the side-carry incident was his superiors were not interested in safe-keeping the life of the bridgemen. At first he thought it was because they had not thought of a decent strategy to lower the death roll and he sincerely thought he was doing good, but the grim truth was different. He didn’t deserved to be punish for that, but neither did Lamaril deserved to be killed for a failed assault. 

The example is relevant when we discuss what punishment Kaladin deserved for his actions in the duel. As I said earlier a strange situation: on one side he deserves to be rewarded and on the other he deserves to be punished. Ultimately, I believe he received both, though the punishment was too extensive. The sad part is Kaladin does not believe he deserved to be imprisoned. Even after he is told, he still cannot accept the idea he did wrong. He should have known better and when we follow his train of thoughts, he thinks Adolin is getting his chance, so why can’t he? He failed to comprehend the purpose. Adolin was not after personal revenge, but after discrediting a threat to his princedom. He wanted to be the one to do it, true, but he was not doing it for himself. The duel was not about Adolin absolving his thirst for personal revenge on Sadeas, it was about giving the Kholin princedom a chance to undermine he Sadeas princedom in retribution for their betrayal. Kaladin misinterpreted the whole thing.

@62: The side-carry strategy did not violate any rules nor regulations nor laws: it simply was a bad strategy which ended up in a failed assault and a loss of human life. This is terrible, but it was not illegal, it was not contrary to the protocol and it was not unlicensed: both Lamaril and Gaz agreed to it mainly because they thought it would get them rid of Kaladin.

Demanding a boon and publicly accusing a man do violate rules, regulations and laws.

In one case, there is no transgression of law in the other, yes.

You may call my view distorted, but I still maintain I have a point. It is not about the seriousness of the incident, it is about what is permitted based on the rules of their world. A bad strategy did not have to be punished by death. Has anyone been hanged for the disaster of the chasmfiend hunt? No. Sadeas decided Lamaril’s death was required for his failure, despite the fact he did nothing illegal other than authorized a poor strategy. In that optic, Elhokar demanding Kaladin’s execution for an action that runs against the rules is plausible and understandable, thought excessive. Imprisonment is a much lesser punishment. 

Since you seem so prompt into discrediting everything single thing I say on the basis Kaladin isn’t my favorite character, what do you suggest they should have done? If imprisonment was not warranted, then what should Elhokar and Dalinar done with Kaladin? Pad him on the back and excuse his insubordination and then hand him Shards?

@64: I invite you to go re-read every single comments I have made in this thread. I have said, on multiple occasions, I thought the death penalty was a too harsh punishment. I have also said several weeks of imprisonment was a too harsh punishment. I have said a few days would have been sufficient. 

I have stated this, over and over and over again, in this very thread.

Are you simply taking the parts of my comments that suits you so you can accuse me of hating Kaladin and thus discredit my comments? I try to judge each character as fairly as possible and, in this chapter, Kaladin is wrong and this independently of how I feel or do not fell about him.

What I have said is based on the consequences of the failed side-carry attempt, demanding Kaladin’s execution is not an abnormal punishment, not in their world. Had he gone for it, most people would not think much of it, just as they didn’t think much of Lamaril’s execution. Since Elhokar could have asked Kaladin’s execution on the basis of his insubordination, putting him in prison is a lighter punishment. We can advocate to no end as to whether or not Elhokar should or should not punished Kaladin, but the fact remains he was in his right to do so. His right may be ill-guided, it may be wrong, it may be unjust, it may be unfair, but it is still within his power, considering the offense done, to call for this man’s execution and this independently of how he feels about him.

As for the rest, Adolin did state Kaladin has breached all conventions and he just can’t ask a lighteyed to duel him. Heck, he even says he does not rank high enough to directly ask Sadeas to duel him which is why he needs to trap him. Kaladin did breached convention, whether it is written or not does not matter. He went against every single thing their society holds for important. Of course we can discuss as to how bias, unfair and prejudice their society is, but it is beyond the point. You can’t accuse people for not being avant-gardiste.

We have not seen Elhokar react to Kaladin’s boon. My guess is therefore as good as yours. However, it is likely having a darkeyed publicly accusing a respected member of their high ranked society did not sit well. Elhokar did state, later on, he has been annoyed at Kaladin display of heroism while he is fond lacking in every way, but without the untimely boon, Elhokar would likely never have reacted negatively to Kaladin.

@70: Ah well. I believe I have stated Elhokar could grow into a “decent king” in a time of peace, but considering the trouble they are about to walk-in, it is unlikely to happen.

Yeah well Kaladin’s prejudice and unflattering portrait of Adolin is one aspect that do bothers me. As a result, I have read too many pejorative comment on Adolin stating he was nothing more than an “arrogant entitled spoiled jerk”. We all know that is not true at all, but sadly not all readers will go to our length to analyse the book. They are thus left with this sole impression which is erroneous. Not to say Adolin can’t be entitled, he sure is at times and he has shown a complete lack of comprehension as to why low born people actually live. His joking around with Kaladin testify this. He just doesn’t know nor realize. It’s right in front of his eyes, but he can’t see it, though he is able to show compassion.

@72: Well yes. He is a Radiant. He has to be greater than all. He has to be more responsible than all. All of his oaths have been geared that way: all have had for purpose to enlarge his horizon. When it comes to protection, Kaladin has been heavily prejudice and narrow-minded: only those who befits his own criteria were deemed worthy of his protection. He didn’t care for all others. His oaths has shown him he has to, he can’t discriminate who needs protection: he has to offer it to all, despite his feelings, providing they need it and it is right. 

So yes, I’d say he has to get a grip on the larger picture and he can’t keep on being so focus on his small group of men.

@74: Good post. I agree with all you have said. I’d like to offer a minor comment though and it won’t be a popular one.

I actually understand why Roshone, in his anger over his son’s death, would unjustly blame Lirin. If we go re-read the scene, as Roshone was standing, bloody, on the table, he urged Lirin to treat his son, which Lirin didn’t as there was nothing he could have done. Roshone never believed him and truly felt Lirin let his son died. Poor Rillir gurgled helplessly as he died violently. His father watched all of it. Imagine how you would feel if the surgeon has refuse to treat your son, despite your insistence? In the grip of the moment, would you have believed him when he say there was nothing he could have done? Of course, Roshone is wrong, but in his pain, I can understand why he would feel he needs to take it out on Lirin. 

However, being a despicable human being, Roshone used an innocent to absolve his desire for vengeance… He should have let go of the emotion and start grieving instead, but he hung up to it until poor Tien had to pay for it. Poor kid.

@75: Evil Monkey, I don’t believe I have said Kaladin should have trusted Dalinar, especially not with his Radiant powers.  I may have said he should have been more appreciative of the chance he is offered, but not necessarily trusting. His mistrust is plausible, it is not what I disliked of Kaladin in this book: it is his constant mopping, brooding and self-centrism where he decided the world turned around his own issues. He took everything personal, even when it wasn’t. He was irrational about it most of the times and even when events proved him wrong, he still persisted with his prejudice. It took him a great deal of time to realize his mistake and while many, like you, feel it made his moment of awesomeness more powerful, it made them less for me. 

*Sigh*

Forever the dissident… but I had to say it: I don’t like Lopen… He unnerves me :-O

@94: I tend not to fit into the general mold of the average fantasy reader and Sanderson fan. I may be putting too much thought into it, but there is a reason for everything. There has to be one why I always end up thinking differently (or seeing things differently) than most. Why can’t I, for instance, love the chasm scenes as most readers do? I had wondered about those things. I feel, at times, discussion would be so much easier if I could just love the same things as everyone else. 

As for my perception on characters, it is forever evolving. Had you asked me the question after WoK or just a year ago, I would have answered very differently. 

For the rest, I agree things would have turned out better had Dalinar maintained the communication more open with Kaladin. However, Dalinar is not a man to explain himself nor justify himself: he simply act and expect people to not only follow his lead, but intrinsically understand his goal. He hardly explains himself to his son, so based on this, I am not surprised he did not share the result of his investigation with Kaladin. It would have been better had he done so, but then, he wouldn’t be Dalinar.

As for those who testified against Kaladin, simple. They were bought. Not many people witnessed Kaladin’s exploit and lived to tell the tale. Those who did were likely offered a large compensation to keep their mouth shut or were killed as well. 

@95: Ah thanks. I had forgotten about this excerpt. It pretty much goes inline with my personal thoughts. Putting Kaladin in command was not a fully reflected decision, but one based on guts feeling. I can’t wait to read more of Dalinar in the next book. It should be… interesting.

I hope some of the flashbacks are going to include the boys… I SO hope.

He unnerves me… His is the comical release, he is the Jar-Jar-Binks of the Stormligth Archive… so no sorry. 

Maybe he’ll grow on me in that novel he is supposed to get.

@102: Sheiglagh, I have no idea what people imagine based on my writings, but based on your comments, I believe you would be very surprised were you to actually meet me. If I have somehow conveyed the idea I found fashionatas shallow then I must retract because I don’t. I try to judge individuals on what they have to say and not their physical appearance or their personal tastes, no matter what they may be. I won’t say I always succeed at this task, but I do try.

The entire “Adolin reading magazines” discussion is one where I have failed at properly expressing my thoughts as I do believe most commentators misunderstood me.

@103: Oh I agree the discussion pertaining the realism of the chasmfiend fight and the later treatment of Kaladin’s injury should await till be get there. How fantasy authors deal with injuries is one of my pet peeves, so I am keen on that one. I simply mentioned it as I believe my Internet life would me much easier if I could just think the same as everyone else.

Also, I have the sense of humor of a rock: I don’t get clever word play (I’m the idiot who stands still upon hearing a joke and ask, what was funny as I try to figure it out) so if humor is not directly obvious, chances are I’ll miss it or be annoy by it. For instance, while I’ll laugh at Adolin and Shallan’s first date, Lopen makes me smile, at best. I don’t especially enjoy characters who’s sole purpose is to be funny which is why I can’t currently appreciate him. Again, this perception is based on a character having had limited development so far. Providing he can grow out of that mold, then he’d likely grow on me as well.

@107: I do not know anyone living who likes the same books as I. When I talk about my interest, I tend to receive perplexed frowns. I know a few individuals who have read GoT as it got trendy due to the TV series, but none have engaged in other similar reads, so far.

I wouldn’t know about geek culture. Geeks would think me not geek enough while non-geeks think me too geek… It most be an American thing though it is not as if I lived in such a foreign country, but my cultural references often are different.

I wanted to conclude in saying, thank you all for your kind words. Despite sounding, at times, like an elephant in a glass store or having the subtility of a tractor, I do appreciate my time here and the discussions we have on-going.

A quick escape on Reddit has confirmed me this community is a much more interesting place to discuss the Stormlight Archive. The amount of disinformation found there is astonishing. As for the 17th Shard, the Stormlight Archive discussion has dwindle next to nothing. Sadly the latest signings have not brought up a flock of WoB susceptible to steer interesting conversation.

As for Lopen, I understand what Lilaer is trying to say. It is true he does come out as the caricature of a common stereotype, the large “familia” brought up together under the firm grasp of the “mama”. I chose Italian instead of Hispanic, but it does form a cliche of sort, one often used to depict Latin influenced families such as Hispanic, Italian, Greeks, Mexicans, etc. He is also seen eat foreign food akin to a burrito/gyros.

Of course, I agree Brandon would not use such a strong image if he did not have a purpose. Either Lopen is simply meant to be the comical release I currently take him to be, the annoying side-kick half the fandom find funny, but unnerves the other half or he has something else in mind entirely. I agree Lopen is unlikely to become a major character, but he is likely to grow into a recurring minor ones. After all, not everyone can be major.

There is a WoB stating Lopen currently is a Windrunner squire but his future status is RAFO. Another WoB states Brandon is quite sure we have had the POV of a future Willshaper… The phrasing made it sound as if the POV was a relatively minor one, so either one of the interlude characters or one of the POV bridgemen… such as Lopen. I bet many are happy to hear this.

@119: Sebrarial does not have a POV. The WoB clearly stipulate the individual has a POV, though the wording made it sound as a minor one. I am not saying Sebrarial won’t become a Radiant, but I doubt he is the character Brandon was referring to.

@120: Amazing analysis. I have nothing more to add. I certainly never saw pass Lopen’s comical relief role, though come to think of it, I just remember one of his interventions I actually appreciated.

“I’ve seen him summon that weapon before, ” Kaladin said.

“Yeah, gancho, on the battlefield, when we saved his sorry ass from Sadeas.”

“No, before that,” Kaladin, said, remembering an incident with a whore in Sadeas’s camp. “He saved someone who was being bullied.”

“Huh,” Lopen said. “He can’t be too bad then, you know?”

For once, he was not acting up, he was not cracking a joke and he actually said something worth saying. If he were like that more often, I would appreciate him more.