Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we enjoyed story-time with Kaladin and Wit – at least, we enjoyed it apart from Kaladin’s anger at the rest of the world for his current situation; that part, we had to debate. This week, Shallan sets out to do Scholarship, and ends up doing Lightweaving, while Pattern develops his sense of humor.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 60: Veil Walks
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: Shallan’s room in Sebarial’s manor
Symbology: Pattern, Palah, Chach
IN WHICH Shallan compares maps, searching for hints of Urithiru; small foreshadowings are dropped; Pattern attempts to comprehend human complexities like sleep and humor; he suggests that she once knew how to make her Illusions produce sound, and she goes blank; Shallan returns to her maps, presenting an argument for interpreting Stormseat to be in the middle of the Shattered Plains; she is convinced that the way to Urithiru is via Oathgate, and that there should be one in the ruins of Stormseat; Pattern again urges her to remember the skills she once knew, and she blanks again; he doesn’t let up this time, and she creates an Illusion of the broken, wretched girl she believes she would be if she let herself remember; she turns away again from the possibility of remembering, and draws Veil again, then turns her into an Illusion; when she walks away, the Illusion goes fuzzy; with instinct, experimentation, and leaps of intuition, she feeds Stormlight into Pattern and attaches the Illusion to him… and now it can move.
Quote of the Week
“Shallan,” Pattern said, moving closer to her. “I know that you have forgotten much of what once was. Those lies attracted me. But you cannot continue like this; you must admit the truth about me. About what I can do, and what we have done. Mmm … More, you must know yourself. And remember.”
She sat cross-legged on the too-nice bed. Memories tried to claw their way out of the boxes inside her head. Those memories all pointed one way, toward carpet bloodied. And carpet … not.
“You wish to help,” Pattern said. “You wish to prepare for the Everstorm, the spren of the unnatural one. You must become something. I did not come to you merely to teach you tricks of light.”
“You came to learn,” Shallan said, staring at her map. “That’s what you said.”
“I came to learn. We became to do something greater.”
“Would you have me unable to laugh?” she demanded, suddenly holding back tears. “Would you have me crippled? That is what those memories would do to me. I can be what I am because I cut them off.”
An image formed in front of her, born of Stormlight, created by instinct. She hadn’t needed to draw this image first, for she knew it too well.
The image was of herself. Shallan, as she should be. Curled in a huddle on the bed, unable to weep for she had long since run out of tears. This girl … not a woman, a girl … flinched whenever spoken to. She expected everyone to shout at her. She could not laugh, for laughter had been squeezed from her by a childhood of darkness and pain.
That was the real Shallan. She knew it as surely as she knew her own name. The person she had become instead was a lie, one she had fabricated in the name of survival. To remember herself as a child, discovering Light in the gardens, Patterns in the stonework, and dreams that became real …
…
“Mmmm … Such a deep lie,” Pattern whispered. “A deep lie indeed. But still, you must obtain your abilities. Learn again, if you have to.”
A long, long time ago, people used to dislike Shallan because she was a spoiled, entitled, flippant little brat. I remember thinking after the beta read that they might not necessarily like her after reading WoR, but they would certainly see her differently.
Yup.
Commentary
I find it oddly amusing that some of the information that will be crucial to the endgame of this book is slipped into this chapter so casually, and is so quickly covered up by other events. We don’t have the old maps of Natanatan showing a presumed location for Stormseat, but we do have a map of the Silver Kingdoms (front endpapers of TWoK); we also have the new map of the Unclaimed Hills & Shattered Plains – the back endpapers and the map on pp 14-15 of WoR, which sound exactly like what Pattern is describing. Shallan has obviously overlaid the two, recognized that the Shattered Plains & Unclaimed Hills form what was once Natanatan… and made the connection that the capital city might likely be on the (pre-shattered) plains rather than in the mountains.
As it turns out, of course, not only is Stormseat on the Plains, it seems to have been the focal point for whatever shattered them.
The copy of the copy of the copy of the mosaic, while it looks like a pretty but mostly artsy representation of the city, turns out to be absolutely critical in the end, identifying the tower that still stands and the relative off-center location of that perfectly round plateau. (It’s also interesting to look at this map in light of the last Eshonai interlude – the tower where the Five meet, the round plateau that forms the practice grounds, etc. ::sigh::)
Other tidbits that get dropped here: Adolin is preoccupied with something; Dalinar is “sick” and being attended by Navani; Shallan has slipped hints about “something valuable” into her reports to Palona, hoping to interest Sebarial in an expedition; and Shallan’s brothers have failed to respond to her letters asking them to join her.
On to the central focus of the chapter, though… This is the first time, IIRC, that Shallan directly confronts the fact that she is deliberately blocking her memories. Then again, it’s also the first time Pattern presses her on it and refuses to back off when she blanks out. And blank she does – three times in as many minutes, I think. At long last, though, Pattern ignores her attempts to ignore him and divert the discussion, and presses her to remember; she simply can’t afford to cripple herself by this continued hiding from her memories.
It doesn’t entirely work; while she finally faces the knowledge that she is deliberately blocking her memories, she doesn’t stop blocking them. I think, though, that this is the beginning of her eventual readiness to face the past and then move on.
Stormwatch
This chapter takes place four days after the previous one; coincidentally, the same day as the Eshonai interlude we covered a couple of weeks ago. There are 22 days left in the countdown.
Sprenspotting
Pattern is such a hoot. Humor FTW. One of my favorite exchanges in the whole book is right here:
“Annoying!” she snapped.
Pattern hummed. “I’m sorry that your mystical, godlike powers do not instantly work as you would like them to.”
She raised an eyebrow at him. “I thought you didn’t understand humor.”
“I do. I just explained . . .” He paused for a moment. “Was I being funny? Sarcasm. I was sarcastic. By accident!” He seemed surprised, even gleeful.
This is, of course, after the conversation where she made a smart remark and Pattern got into a dissection of humor, making it as not-funny as possible.
Ars Arcanum
Since Shallan can’t/won’t confront her actual memories, she’s pretty intent on starting from scratch rather than remembering the things she used to do. Apparently, in so doing she actually discovers something she hadn’t been able to do before – at least, it doesn’t appear to be something familiar to Pattern. At one time, she’d been able to make her Illusions speak. Now, she can make them move without her direct intervention (by attaching them to Pattern), and she can make them stable at a distance by giving Pattern extra Investiture to support them. It’s really pretty cool, because you can envision all sorts of tricks. She hasn’t done it yet, but I’d love to read a scene where she creates one Illusion for Pattern to carry, and another for herself, and then walks down the street having a conversation between the two of them. Heh. It would be so much fun. And just think of all the ways Pattern could tell her off! Or tell her jokes. Whichever.
Heraldic Symbolism
Palah is clearly here as the Scholar; she might also be shown as the patron of Elsecallers, pointing up Shallan’s thoughts about Jasnah’s studies and conclusions. Chach isn’t quite so clear, but oddly enough, I think she might represent Pattern’s role in his bond with Shallan at this point… though I just realized that I can’t possibly articulate what I mean by that. Sorry…
Shipping Wars
I’m amused that Shallan begins this chapter focusing on scholarship, because Adolin is “preoccupied” with something else. Heh. But we’re not talking about that yet, la-la-la-la.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when we go flash back to one of those blocked memories… I’d forgotten how depressing this section of the book could be!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She would like to present her apologies for being most notable by her absence in the comments for a stretch here; there’s kind of a pile of work going on right now. But y’all are so awesome she’s not even feeling bad about it. Carry on!
I <3 Pattern.
There’s something to be said here about trauma, surviving, and recovery but I can’t find the words.
Yes. Not many of us suffer the kind of trauma that has to be blocked out in order to function; the veterans among us would probably have the highest incidence of anything like that. I do think it’s realistic that in order to be fully functional again, Shallan will eventually have to remember and resolve these things, but postponing it for several years was probably the only way to survive at the time. Poor child.
IIRC, Shallan used to amuse her brothers by making jokes. Some of those jokes would include impressions. I wonder if her skills with making impressions was in some way related to Shallan’s prior apparent use of Lightweaving to give sound to her illusions.
Wetlandernw @2. I agree. It would be very difficult to live if you cannot face the truth of some event in your past.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I was one of the people who didn’t like Shallan that much in Way of Kings, mostly because her storyline wasn’t as interesting as Kaladin, until the very end of Way of Kings with the reveal about the parshmen/ void bringers. However Words of Radiance has shown Shallan in a new light and I’ve loved seeing her back story and her growth as a character in this book. Also love the budding romance of Shallan and Adolin. I guess what I’m trying to say is Shallan is definitely one of my favorites now.
Shallan repressing memories = sad, but I think she is right, she is not ready yet to confront those painful events of her childhood.
I’ve had this theory for a little while that only people who have killed can become Radiants. Except that, Shallan’s memories seem to make it not feasible, since she had Pattern and was Surgebinding before she killed her parents. Also Renarin hasn’t killed anyone we know of. Lift hasn’t either, but some of the stuff she’s said makes me feel like might have killed before.
Possibly you just have to know great loss? Again, I’m not sure that works for Shallan.
I’d really like to see the various moments that the Spren get attracted to their companions, preferably from the Spren’s pov
Would she have to remember? If she wasn’t a protagonist, spy, thief, and Knight Radiant? If she had built a normal life while forgetting instead of something worth writing a book about could she have buried the past and walked away?
Oh, wow, I just realized something I hadn’t caught in my own re-read earlier this year… so Eshonai gathered up the remnant onto the practice grounds… which we can deduce is the Oathgate plateau. And the remnant just “disappeared” after that?
Did the Listener remnant get transported to Urithiru somehow?
Poor Shallan. I can’t verbalize how this chapter makes me feel other than it makes me feel. :(
This:
“Shallan felt like she was getting close to something. Amaram’s notes spoke mostly of trying to meet with the Parshendi, to ask them about the Voidbringers and how to return them.”
Was Amaram successful? Venli is such an opaque character, we virtually know nothing about her other than her “scholarship” and that she is Eshonai’s sister. If he did meet with the Parshendi, could Amaram have unwittingly provided necessary information and caused an earlier transformation than might have otherwise occurred?
Just to a add a little cross-Cosmere connection here, I am rereading the Mistborn books, and her use of lightweaving here reminded me of an Allomancer burning gold. That is, they see what could have been.
@7 vineyarddawg, sorry to burst your bubble but Eshonai is informed that her skeptical lieutenant and her former division have led the stormform resisters down a chasm in an effort to escape their anticipated killing by bearers of the stormform. They are not on a plateau, and could not gain access to Urithiru in any case – not having a spren-blade to open the oathgate.
@8 RestlessSpirit, had Amaram met Venli and transferred information leading to her ability to invoke the Stormform, it would have been deliberate since he was trying to generate the Voidbringers as a means of forcing the return of the Radiants. However, there is no reason to believe that he had made such contact. He would have had to cross many unbridged chasms to do so. This would be nigh impossible for a lone man or even a troop – unless they carried a bridge, or he could use a very long pole to vault over chasms. Besides, he would have had to know the Pashendi location, which only Shallan later discovered.
As for Shallan’s jokes, they were always a coping mechanism. You see that sort of thing everywhere, especially in depression and PTSD. Read The Martian. It shows what I’m talking about pretty well.
@STBLST Actually, the quote from I-10 (EDIT: I-11, not I-10) is:
So, if the guards went with those escaping, did Varanis or anyone else actually see the remnant escaping? Or did they just assume that because the bridges were cut down, the remnant used those bridges to escape? We don’t really know much about the Oathgates yet, and we’ve only seen them work with shardblades. And it doesn’t appear that the Listeners had any access to the room Shallan used to operate the Oathgate… but that’s still a lot of Listeners to disppear rather quickly. Perhaps they have access to a different means by which to activate the Oathgate that we don’t know about yet? Or perhaps the Shin Oathgate is still functional and they somehow transported there?
All I’m saying is that we don’t know much about the Oathgates yet, and with the speed at which the Listeners disappeared, it’s something that’s at least worth pondering.
Pattern tells Shallan that her lies, specifically the ones she tells herself to repress her memories, are what attacted him to her (paraphrased of course). But, wasn’t he already with her at this time? I’d never paid attention to the phrasing before, so I’m glad Alice made that exchange the Quote of the Week. Needless to say however, I’m slightly puzzled.
@12
Durkon’s Paradox, vineyarddawg. You’re searching too hard.
@@.-@. Yeah, I was definitely one of those that didn’t care for Shallan too. It actually took until the full flashback to turn me as I felt her hints were really vague, even with the Shardblade hints.
@8. I thought he meant those new lies are what brought him back. She unlocked him as Shardblade, killed her mother and repressed the memories. We don’t actually know what attracted Pattern to her before that and there’s no guideline yet as to how (Radiant) spren appear.
Does anyone know if we are going multiple Radiants, of the same type, before Book 6? I’ve always assumed that we would just get one of each type until the time skip. I really have to think that Shallan is a special case, but i’m not sure we’ll get any proof for awhile.
@12 Unless I’m mistaken, I’m fairly certain that Renarin had to use his shard blade to open a doorway into the tower, which makes it unlikely that the parshendi remnant would have been able to access the Oathgate. Additionally, the oathgate requires a live shardblade to unlock it, which I’m fairly certain those parshendi didn’t have.
Pattern is the best. Sanderson has a real gift for getting into the heads of nonhuman creatures in his stories. He’s got some of the best original fantasy races I’ve seen.
Just how young was Shallan when she started bonding with Pattern and began developing her abilities? There’s a good chance she was too young to fully comprehend what she was participating in. Rosharan societies may not have the same ideas we have about age, contracts, and consent, but I think most people there would understand that a young child is not ready for something like a binding oath. Perhaps Cryptic ethics aren’t concerned about that kind of thing, but I wonder what Syl would have to say about it.
@5
The discussion around how someone becomes a KR candidate has always focused on being “broken” in some way. Killing is one way of getting there, but for most people we’ve seen, it’s a part of a larger personal trauma.
I wonder if it is possible to born broken?
Combat Vets who struggle in that area (and most don’t by the way) typically don’t have repressed memories, they actively suppress them with alcohol or keeping really busy, which can cause complications in the long run. But that stuff is more related to moral injury and grief avoidance which has some cross cutting symptomology with PTSD, but usually isn’t.
However, some trauma/abuse survivors I’ve worked with had pre/subsconscious repressed memories from early childhood. When their limbic system finally comes down a few notches (hyperarousal reduction) memory consolidation begins and that can really blindside them. This type of extreme re-experiencing of repressed memories can be misdiagnosed as a single psychotic episode in the ER and then they’re pumped full of meds, which interrupts what could have been a first step towards a positive healing experience. Annoys the heck out of me. Shallan’s experience is more along those lines.
@8 and @10 I actually think the idea of contact between Amaram and Venli makes a lot of sense. I don’t think Amaram made it out to the Listeners–his maps indicate he’s only searching and he writes the letter at the end explaining how excited he is to make it to Urithuru. I think Venli could have sought him out.
Venli has obvious knowledge of the storm and plans on bringing back the storm/Voidbringers/Odium. We also know two things: 1. Amaram and Gavilar were allied in this weird organization to bring the KR back via bringing back the Voidbringers. 2. The Listener council decided to kill Gavilar when they found out this intention. We don’t know every detail and if there were any misunderstandings, but we know Gavilar’s plans caused the plan for the assassination.
Eshonai’s internal comments reveal that she convinced the council to pursue this course, but it was a much debated decision. So at the very least, Parshendi leaders knew about Gavilar’s intentions, if not the general populace. Would Venli openly or through proxy have been involved in the opposition to the plan? Venli was already hiding the true aims of her research which happened to coincide exactly with Gavilar’s aims — to bring back the Voidbringers.
I have posted before about the evidence pointing to Venli already having transformed into some form pertaining to Odium. In any case, whatever experiments were necessary to find and capture all of the storm spren unobserved, and likely to transform into other forms without anyone knowing, Venli and her allies must have spent significant time hidden and/or in a distant location where no one saw the weird new Odium spren.
It actually makes a lot of sense that during this time Venli, or one of the researchers who works for her but has less noticeable family connections, would have sought out Gavilar’s friends to collaborate in secret / manipulate the group to their own ends. Gavilar could have told them about others involved in his plan, or the Parshendi could have just observed them while spending so much time with Gavilar. Gavilar had a long, serious conversation with Amaram just before being assassinated which could have easily been seen.
I have been RAFO’d by Brandon about Gavilar’s black globe, but there is a lot of speculation about it being some sort of Odium spren that Gavilar was foolishly going to use in his plan to return the Voidbringers. With how much the Listeners forgot, it is entirely plausible that Gavilar and co. had discovered information that Venli did not know about the spren and discussing this with Amaram could have sent Venli’s group in fruitful directions for their Odium spren research.
@18 BenW
It sounds possible to me, although people in our modern world may object to the use of “broken” to describe people with mental or developmental disabilities. Renarin is one character whose openness to spren bonding probably comes from birth and not traumatic life experience.
Renarin’s physical state is broken, but more importantly, that led to a difficult childhood, where he became emotionally broken to some degree. I doubt the physically broken part is essential for the Nahel bond, or you could just bond a spren over a broken leg.
Some very interesting ideas going on today! Noice.
I don’t know how plausible the idea of the Listeners escaping via the Oathgate is, but I really like it. The question from outside would be, did Brandon make it the practice grounds and round-up area just for an excuse to mention the perfectly round plateau that he’d need later? Or did he deliberately make it the round-up area because it’s the Oathgate? From the inside, we need to consider that while a human needs a live-spren-Blade to run the Oathgate, the Listeners are more closely linked to the Cognitive realm. Is it possible that the Listeners, particularly one like Eshonai’s mother, would have a way to activate the gate without actually getting into the room? Some spren/Cognitive connection that, in desperate need, might turn it on and move them elsewhere? I don’t know. It seems unlikely that they went to Urithiru, or they should have been found by the Alethi in something less than a week. But could they have gone somewhere else with it? Is there another functional Oathgate they could have gone to? Again, I don’t know… but I’m not ruling it out. Partly because I like it, of course, but also partly because if I can come up with a plausible means, Brandon could have done that and more.
I also like – for a certain definition of the term – the idea that Venli could have connected with Amaram and/or others with the same idea. Several good suggestions along this line so far; again, I don’t think we can rule it out. I sure will be interested to see how things play out in the next book…
Didn’t the oathgate take the building with it? That would have meant that the people reporting their disappearance didn’t happen to notice part of the rocks on the plateau as missing. Possible, but unlikely.
No, the building is still there. Kaladin mentions it (and uses it) in Ch. 87. The building is the fabrial, so it has to stay.
Patillian @20
Annnnd on the subject of the black globe…could the first line of the epigraph be referring to it?
I have my own idea’s about Shallan’s early family life that led her to bonding Pattern at such a young age. I think it started with abuse by her mother (emotional or physical). If you notice, no where in the books does anyone say anything good about her mother. Helaran is upset with their father for killing her, but even he doesn’t have anything nice to say about her. In those days it was Shallan’s father who was the protector who stopped his wife from going overboard in her abuse under my theory. He spent so long trying to protect Shallan that it carried over even after his wife’s death. It was that drive to protect that drove him overboard to the point where he would attack anyone who threatened the safety of his remaining family. After a long enough period, he became the vary thing he was trying to protect them from.
25. Wetlandernw
In the very least, the previous chapter mentions that the crem shell of the building teleported with them. That would have been noticed. Probably.
And yet, when Kaladin sees it, he calls it a hill, and speculates that it’s a crem-covered building. I get the distinct impression that it doesn’t look any different than it has for decades, except for one or two access holes hacked out of the crem.
Chances are, it’s a moot point, and the non-conformist Listeners fled into the chasms just like Varanis thought… but so far, I haven’t seen anything that solidly proves it one way or the other.
RENARIN
Someone said that Renarin used his shard blade to open the Oathgate. He tried, but it did not work. During the time when they were trying to get inside the Oathgate, Renarin has not been granted a blade by his spren. Come to think of it, I don’t think by the end of WoR, Renarin has a live blade. It was not mentioned.
SHALLAN
I believe Pattern was attracted to Shallan as a child because of Shallan’s storytelling prowess. I believe even as a child (before her mother tried to kill her), Shallan is a great storyteller. And since Crypstics define lies different from we do, Pattern saw Shallan’s fairy tales (I’m using this term for lack of a better word) as lies. Because come to think of it, Roshar is an era where there is no TV or internet so the favorite pass time of people are telling stories the same way it was during the Middle Ages here on Earth. So, I presume that the make up stories that only children can come up with attracted Pattern to Shallan.
RENARIN Being BROKEN
I do not agree with that. I do not believe that Renarin is broken. He had the same upbringing as Adolin. And though their mother died (a traumatic experience for young children no matter what), both Adolin and Renarin led normal lives for being third dahn by birth. Which basically means they never lacked for anything except the obvious. They probably have nannies and tutors. And though Dalinar might be away fighting a war most of the time, the Kholin household is probably running like a fine tuned and well-oiled machine.
I believe that Renarin has bonded with a spren because he is a Kholin. My theory is that genetics is involved for someone to be considered for a Nahel bond. In Mistborn, which is part of the cosmere, magic is inherited. Same as in Warbreaker as exemplified by Siri and Viviana with their ability to change hair color.
The magic in Mistborn is hereditary, but it must be activated. In Roshar it is not clear if there is a hereditary component, but there also seems to be a requirement of activating the magic by being broken (and then swearing oaths).
@30
In regards to the ability to gain Investiture in the Cosmere in general and Roshar specifically, Brandon seems to try to make his magic systems as consistent as possible in a scientific way. So having a genetic component makes sense in world. However, I believe there is a spiritual component to gaining powers on a Shardworld as well. Birgit referenced Mistborn where the power can lie dormant until activated by a painful experience.
You referenced Warbreaker, but to me that’s a special case. It’s the only published Cosmere novel with one Shardbearer not in conflict with other Shards. Every human on that planet can invest, all they have to do is collect Breaths. No activation necessary. Siri and Vi can change their hair color, but that doesn’t seem to be related to that planet’s Investiture, that’s just a family talent.
@30 I think Renarin has been broken. It wasn’t as quick and traumatic as Kaladin or Shallan, but it was there. Or rather, he never was together right to begin with. He’s a total noncombatant in a culture where a man’s value to society is his military prowess. He’s from an entire family of soldiers, surrounded by reminders of what he is expected to aspire to, all while knowing that he never can actually get there, through no fault of his own. That, day in and day out, can do some serious damage to one’s psyche.
It is great to see so many positive reviews for Shallan: she so sheldom get love in the fandom. Despite having had her own themed book, she still remains one of the least popular main character. It is true she is not an action figure such as Kaladin, but she has had her moments in WoR. I am especially fond of her she made her way to the Shattered Plains.
This chapter is heart-breaking. She does not want to remember, but she has to. She clings to the idea the truth would break her, but she does not know that. She fears it will happen which gives so much more credence to her first truth stating “She was afraid.” Yes. Shallan IS afraid. Afraid she wouldn’t be able to bear the truth, afraid the truth would turn her into someone she does not want to be… Poor kid has not figured out she gets to become what she wishes and she does not have to react to the truth by curling into a ball. She did not choose to have such a crappy mother, but she can choose how she lets this truth affect her once she is ready to face it again.
It is strange how her character path was orchestred around her finding her path, taking bold decisions while her internal dilemma is about her fearing she may not have this control she relinquishes.
@29: I have to agree with you about Renarin. While I understand his feeling of uselessness has derived into a poor self-esteem, which can indeed translate itself into a form of brokeness, I have always had issues trying to figure out why Renarin’s life is considered so tragic. True, he has a disability which no doubt created obstacles for him to move past, but he was so well surrounded by a loving family, I have a hard time reconciliating myself with the fact it was not enough. I also have a hard time understanding why he seems to consider the only worthy path in life is soldering when he is given plenty of real-life examples of individuals who are succesful without being soldiers or, even better, when his perfect brother refused to chose “soldering” as his Calling… Surely Renarin knows Adolin does not like the warfare and only relunctantly became a soldier. Surely Renarin knows Adolin hates the butchery and the hunting… So why the obssession on soldering? True, Vorinism calls it for the absolute Calling, but it isn’t the only Calling. Not everyone is a soldier, so why can’t he find pride into the things he is able to do accurately?
Or is it Renarin truly IS the Blackthorn’s son… We know Dalinar had a taste for blood which led him to become a gigantic killing machine relishing his next battle. We know Dalinar has never wanted to be anything else than a soldier (and ultimately it is this argument which convinces him to let Renarin try again), it was more than a Calling to him, but a way of life. So what if quiet Renarin inherited his father’s interests and appeal for slaughter, but was prevented to fulfill them due to a sickness he can’t control… Is there a ruthless, bloody side to Renarin we have not yet seen? It seems doubtful as even as I write this, it seems off. Completely. Renarin can’t be the Blackthorn’s heir… but I have to ask myself if we aren’t being misguided by the round spectacles and the shy weak looking boy.
As for the death of the mother, I’d say she had two sons. We can’t, on one side claim Adolin’s life was picture perfect and he is nothing more than a spoiled prince, while state on the other side the death of the mother is such a tragic event is no doubt offseted the priviledges into which Renarin was born… Both boys lived through the ordeal, both boys have dealt with it differently. Renarin recalls a few memories with a certain foudness while Adolin clings to a keepstake and reacts very positively to Navani’s attentions. To which one will the truth be the hardest to bear? I have my theory.
@32
Siri and Vi are descendants of Returned, whose singular Breath(s) are Splinters of Endowment. So their hair is hereditary and part of Investiture. It’s never fully explained how to become Returned, but the assumption is anyone can do it. Warbreaker and Mistborn follow the same pattern.
I agree that we are not yet privy to the author’s powerful imagination and plans for continuing the series. As such, I should not have so readily ruled out the suggestions of Vineyarddawg and RestlessSpirit about the recalcitrant Listeners escaping to Urithiru and Venli’s possible connection with Amaram. However, I still regard those possibilities as most unlikely. As I noted, we have not been informed by Sanderson to date of any means that the Listeners could have used to enter Urithiru. Nor is there evidence that the entrance to the portal had been breached prior to Shallan. Nor have the several thousand Listeners been noticed by the Alethi contingent taking refuge there (as Wet noted). It would seem that the Listeners led by Thude actually went down a chasm to find a place of refuge both from the Stormform contingent as well as the anticipated High/Ever storms Surviving the flashfloods of the latter is more problematic in a chasm. Perhaps Thude, accompanying Eshonai in her early expeditions, had discovered a large cave above the water line in a chasm which his people could reach.
As to prior contact between Amaram and Venli, there is no indication to date that this has occurred. Venli is not said to have joined the Parshendi/Listener leaders in their visit to Gavilar’s palace to sign a treaty. Those leaders first learned of Gavilar’s plans to evoke the old Listener gods from him that evening, and made a sudden plan to prevent that from happening by assassinating Gavilar. There appeared to be little opportunity for Venli or some associate to gain some critical information about the Odium sprens from Amaram. Besides, he was hoping to gain such information from the Parshendi, as per the quote:
“..Amaram’s notes spoke mostly of trying to meet with the Parshendi, to ask them about the Voidbringers and how to return them.”
To justify the Venli-Amaram connection, you would need to presume that Amaram’s notes were written prior to the treaty signing before he had gained that critical knowledge.
I find it more likely that Venli’s knowledge of how to evoke Stormform came from her connection to Odium and the Unmade, i.e., esoteric or mystical insights. Alternatively, she may have forced such information from Szeth while he was their servant (Szeth had visited Urithiru and may have discovered some documents there on the subject.).
sheiglagh @30 – Re: Renarin and the Oathgate – The statement (@16) was “Unless I’m mistaken, I’m fairly certain that Renarin had to use his shard blade to open a doorway into the tower…” That is actually correct; Shallan asked Renarin to “kindly slay this rock for me” – by which she meant, use his Blade (while it screamed!) to cut through the crem to access the building.
ON what I meant about being born broken and how it MIGHT pertain to Renarin, I just want to say that I have Asperger’s syndrome, a type of high functioning autism, myself. And while I have been blessed by a loving family, there are one or two memories I have of childhood that, when, I look back at them I cannot help but think, HOW did that NOT mess me up? Being bad with social cues I considered some people friends who, now that I look back on what I can remember of the past, I know was not true at all. I have certain items whose touch or sight triggers an outpouring of disgust, yet one of my so-called fiends insisted on showing making me touch them and/or show them to me. Another so-called friend chased after me with a plank with a nail through it. Needless to say I was so terrified by that event that I never went back to his place again. Though it is only recently when I brought up that past experience with my mom that I realized that, for whatever reason, I refused to tell my mom back then WHY I was terrified. On the other hand I also take pride in my differences.
My point, to all this is, while I may or may not be broken, I don’t care if people call me that or not.
ON a related note is anyone else here familiar with knot’s law and hard-body training?
@30 sheighlagh
About Renarin, genetics, and brokenness, I do not think the idea about genetics is supported on Roshar by the evidence we have. Syl tells Kaladin that all the Knights Radiant were broken. The back cover of WoR includes this quote:
From those two statements, it seems pretty fundamental that there’s some element of brokenness that makes each person a candidate for knighthood. I don’t think in Renarin’s case it comes from having a particularly traumatic childhood, but from being a person living with a couple of different disabilities in a society where the warrior ideal reigns supreme. It may be more of a self-perception of brokenness than one imposed from the outside.
RE: Venli, was it here or on the 17th Shard where people were speculating about whether or not the form Venli calls scholarform was actually that or an Odium-form? The songs do warn about the ambition of scholarform, but that seems more like the disquiet that comes from having your ideas challenged when you begin to learn new things.
Re: scholarform, ambition, and Odium:
Scholarform might not be an Odiumform, but the impulses it grants might make Odiumforms available through Venli-type research. I see it like Jurassic Park: scholarform’s ambition is so preoccupied with whether they CAN discover new forms that they won’t stop to think if they SHOULD.
@38 BenW
I am familiar with Hard Body training in the traditional sense (though I personally disagree with the philosophy given the actually netted results).
The theory behind Hard Body Training is to intentionally break the bones in your hands, arms, legs, and feet to make them heal stronger, ( i.e. kicking trees repeatedly to deaden nerves). They’ll also strike their stomachs and such to build up resistance to pain etc.
It does work, but it’s actually a really controversial practice because it causes health problems (blood clots, arthritis, nerve damage) just to make the practitioner more resistant to pain. Sure your bones become stronger, but your ligaments and tendons and cartilage can just plain get destroyed.
I really hope that the breaking proto-radiants to make them “stronger” doesn’t have similar results. Otherwise, it’s rather clear to me why the Radiants of old got fed up and quit.
@40 Kefka
That interpretation makes sense to me. Anxiety about scientific advances is always with us.
@41 wcarter
Ouch! That sounds positively awful.
I don’t think that the spren were or are willfully interfering in the lives of proto-Radiants to cause the breaking. My impression was that it comes from prior experience or life circumstances, and that makes them a candidate to be “scouted” by bonding spren.
I can’t see an honorspren like Syl causing harm to Kaladin because she wants to create a potential bond. Their bond is built on trust and doing the right thing. Syl hates seeing Kaladin in pain, even if it’s of his own making. We can’t generalize this to all the other orders with certainty, but the nature of the Knights as servants and defenders who are chosen for their behavior leads me to believe that the spren don’t “prep” them by causing harm.
Am I wrong to believe that the more control a Shardbearer has on his/her world the easier it is for the inhabitants of that world to invest? Roshar seems to have the lowest rate of inhabitants that can access the powers a Shard grants. It’s also the most contested of Shardworlds we’ve seen so far. Warbreaker by contrast has a single Shardbearer and that’s a world where everyone is capable of Investiture. Elantris and Mistborn features populations somewhere in the middle. Is the planet that Silence takes place on the one that Odium controls uncontested? Haven’t read that one yet but I’ve heard things.
I wonder if you have to be broken in order to attract a spren in the first place? I would lean towards it not being necessary because Syl says that she was watching/knew about Kaladin before he left home.We know that his life before he left home wasn’t something that would “break” him. Shallan was super young when she bonded with Pattern the first time. I would find it hard to believe that they were broken then. I would be hesitant to speculate that Shallan’s life was bad enough to break her even before her mom died.
The other question that I have is what is the definition of a “broken person”. What level of bad shit does a person have to go through for to be counted as having broken? I would agree with people that Renarin probably had it easier than the others. He’s socially awkward and non-fighting man in a society that venerates fighters. Tough break kid. But is that enough for him to be a “broken person”. I would say no, but he’s still attracted a spren.
I’m starting to think that all humans are just weird broken creatures to spren. Therefore all humans are broken and the ability to use magic/power can either be the thing that saves some humanity in some people or the thing that harms the user or those around them.
@43 EvilMonkey
It’s an interesting idea. I don’t think we have enough data points or enough detail to test it.
Roshar seems like an outlier since its situation is artificial. Roshar had Investiture, but it seems like a relatively small group of people used it. Then, it went away with the Recreance. Are there any WoBs that give us hints about how many KR were active during their peak years?
Everyone on Nalthis has Investiture and can theoretically Awaken, but the system makes actual practitioners rare. Most people would prefer to keep their Breath, and religious and social attitudes discourage people from giving them up. The number of people who have an interest in and knowledge of the system remains pretty small. So I’d say Investiture on its own is common, but it’s designed in a way that keeps Awakeners very uncommon on Nalthis. The difficulty of access is probably a key reason in Zahel’s decision to leave it for Roshar.
Magic was pretty rare on Sel too, but without knowing the mechanics behind how it’s accessed, I’m not sure we can say much. Scadrial in the Alloy of Law era feels like Investiture is pretty common compared to the end of the Lord Ruler’s time. Without the limitations on breeding, genes for two of the three systems have become much more widespread and we see more characters who use magic in Mistborn than in other books.
Jasnah is another Radiant who doesn’t seem to qualify as “broken “. Though admittedly we don’t have a back story on her yet….
Re: A genetic component to investiture capability
I’m going with the still fairly mysterious s-DNA on that. And a 3-way with brokenness that I haven’t quite figured out yet (like the fire triangle…3 necessary ingredients).
Re: A link between the gem in the epigraph and the black globe (my @26)
Or maybe the gemstone referenced in the epigraph is the one Hoid wore when he called himself Topaz. Seems more likely, and very intriguing–Hoid wearing a gemstone that died. Hmmmm.
Halien @42
I don’t want to believe that either, but what if they did (do) interfere and the Recreance was the result when the KR uncovered the nasty secret.
EvilMonkey @43
Silence takes place on Threnody, a world that doesn’t have a shard. Odium resides on Braize and can influence Roshar. I wouldn’t think Odium controls Threnody, b/c it’s not in the Rosharan planetary system (Roshar, Braize and Ashyn), but that’s just my humble opinion. Otherwise, I like your theory.
I had wondered on what makes an individual “broken” enough to receive a Nahel bond. It is true we have been given the tragic examples such as Kaladin and Shallan which makes Renarin and Jasnah’s experiences pale in comparison.
I had thus wondered some more… What do sprens look for? Is it really the brokenness? Is Kaladin really broken? I mean, sure he insists he is, he has lived through some massive traumas, but he never gave up. He didn’t curl into a ball crying, he didn’t succumb to alcohol, in fact it strikes to me he simply refused to let the events break him as no matter what they threw at him, he still trying. So he is really broken or has he simply considered becoming broken? Just as Shallan considers her memories may break her.
I am starting to believe it is the hardships that matters, it is the moment where you contemplate giving up, abandoning and you choose not to.
You choose to live and not die.
You choose to be strong and not weak.
You choose to walk the hardest path and not give in to the easy way out.
You choose not to break.
Back to Renarin what did he essentially do all through WoR? He tried to become a soldier, he tried to learn to become a soldier after having nearly given up in WoK. Sure he got help from his father’s timely gift of a Plate, but he still choose to keep on trying. He may be wrong about this career path, but we can’t fault him for not making efforts.
So what if Renarin secured his Nahel bond through his efforts to become a soldier? Sure his disability caused him to have low self-esteem, but what makes him a proto-Radiant is the fact he refused to give up. He has contemplated failure, giving-up, but he chose not to.
Makes sense?
@44 kei_rin
I think the concept of brokenness is key, as demonstrated by the quotes from Syl and from the back of WoR. Just how that works in practice isn’t clear, but we have no reason to doubt its centrality.
@47 Ways
It’s possible that the Recreance involved that kind of revelation. My reading of the in-world Words of Radiance‘s “wicked thing of eminence” has been something that occurred right then. The few references we have to the Recreance are so vague that almost anything can fit. Even the in-world source says its own source refused to say if this wicked thing was an act of the Radiants or not.
We don’t know many rules about how sDNA works, but I think it that DNA here is more metaphorical than a mechanical model. My reason for not suspecting a genetic component in Rosharan magic is that the personalities and behaviors of the practitioners are so central to the use of Surgebinding. The system has built-in ethics requirements to access power, and that makes it unique among Sanderson’s magics. I think it’s much more interesting if that is the determining factor rather than the die roll of inheritance.
@48 Gepeto
I think the key to brokenness is self-perception. Belief and perception have a profound impact on how magic works on Roshar and the whole system is tilted toward the Cognitive realm. A person who has a self-perception of brokenness is a candidate for spren attention. How they respond to that self-perception and how it informs their actions probably helps determine which type of spren responds.
Determination to stick to your goals or ideals probably plays a role too, but I’m not entirely convinced it’s the only one that matters. It’s probably something that makes somebody stand out a bit more, but it’s one common thread among the different traits that the spren look for.
Perhaps, it is a matter of degrees. Spren can use small cracks (small trauma) but bigger cracks (great trauma) give them a better foothold.
I bet, that once we get the backstories for the Heralds, we are going to see some great adversity and trauma overcome before they were Heralds.
It is not always obvious who is broken. Shallan wondered what happened in Jasnah’s past, in WoK.
And yes, Renarin and Adolin had the same upbringing, but that doesn’t mean they handled it equally well. For every girl that was smitten with Adolin, there was another that thought Renarin was (as Shallan puts it) “creepy”. Adolin was a prince’s prince. Renarin was just….. Heaven needs janitors too. (I exaggerate, but only a little) It isn’t suffering like Kaladin in a slave camp, but it still can be a lonely heartbreaking thing to go through. Even if it is a very quiet suffering.
Ways @47 (re: EvilMonkey @43) – It depends on which “Silence” he was referencing. If he meant Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell then you are correct; that takes place on Threnody, a Cosmere world that doesn’t have a resident Shard (and is, incidentally, Nazh’s home planet). However, if he meant The Silence Divine, that one takes place on Ashyn.
FWIW, as far as we know, Ashyn isn’t specifically controlled by a Shard; Odium is on/controls Brayse. But they’re both in the Greater Rosharan system, so what Shards might influence Ashyn, and to what extent, is still unknown.
Oh, and no one has read The Silence Divine; Brandon read bits from it at the WoR tour stops, but it’s not a completed novel yet. IIRC, it’s actually going to be a novella, something along the scale of The Emperor’s Soul, and it’s probably going to be renamed.
Halien @45
I suppose we will all get to see whether my hunch was right or wrong with the publishing of future works by Brandon. It just seems to me that everything is trending in that direction. In fact, Alloy of Law and Scadrial in that timeframe seems to support mt theory. One Shardholder with no interference makes access to Investiture more common. You noted that when the Lord Ruler reigned practitioners of the Metallic Arts were much less common. Part of that was obviously due to his policies but it still follows that he may not have had to police many anyway.
As for Warbreaker, the fact that there are few with the knowledge or inclination to invest is actually besides the point I tried to make. My thing was that on that world everyone has the capability to invest, everyone can collect Breaths. Not everyone can perform Allomancy or Feruchemistry given the knowledge of how. Not everyone can form a Nahel bond on Roshar.
BTW, thanks Ways and Wet for clearing up the mix up regarding Silence. I actually was referring to the Forests of Hell but as I said I haven’t yet read it. I think I read something about it on 17th Shard and got confused. It would be interesting to see how Investiture works on a world Odium controls unchallenged. Sounds like a nightmare. Threnody sounds like a nightmare planet too. Probably why I made the connection.
As far as the question of Brokenness, could it be that different types of emotional or physical trauma combined with the talents of the user attract different types of Nahel bond Level spren? For instance, Syl is perfect for Kaladin. How much of a disater would it be if Pattern had tried to bond him? The things Pattern provide Shallan augment her talents just as Syl augments Kaladin’s talents, but the talent had to be there in the first place.
Then, people break differently based on their experience. I contend that if someone is broken in a certain way that alerts a couple spren classes of a potential candidate. Then an assessment of that candidate’s talents and emotional make up is made and the Order most closely alligned attempts to make contact. They send a representative.
The goal of the Nahel bond seems to be finding a Spren-Human combination that comes closest to the Ideal, closest to Oneness, a living link between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. Getting to that point requires compatible components. Spren are the choosers because they know the way to get there and the type of people they need to allign themselves with.
Hopefully I’m not wording this as badly as I think I am and that it makes a certain kind of sense.
Color me jaded but as much as I don’t want it to be the truth, part of me still thinks the spren are not completely innocent of traumas that seem to afflict their partners.
Something enraged those Radiants, something bad enough to make them give up everything; to flat out throw away their weapons and armor like so much trash and just walk away. I think it’s because they found out why they were all broken.
Shallan is hardly the only clever Rosharan girl who likes art and/or stories. But she just so happened to have an axe-crazy mother who was a member of some kind of ‘surgebinders are evil so lets kill em all’ cult.
Prior to SA I have never heard of any supposedly benevolent entity making a binding legal contract with a small child–particularly one whom could get killed by her own family just for having the power it granted regardless of how it was used.
As it happened, she was eventually forced to kill her own parents in separate incidents. After she bonded Pattern. Sounds like something straight out of Faustian legend to me.
And what about Tien’s death? Kaladin called out to him, and somehow Tien heard him and looked up to him (something even Kaladin himself found odd at the time). He heard Kaladin past all the distance, all the noise, and all the confusion of battle. He heard him and looked up just in time to be distracted long enough to be dealt a killing blow by an unseen enemy. Almost as though Kaladin’s voice was carried to him on the wind.
Something made those KR break their oaths and kill their spren partners. Something made them give up their power and status.. Whatever it was, it couldn’t have been a minor thing like simple fatigue of the job or dissatisfaction with how society treated them. Otherwise they wouldn’t have done it in such a way as to kill their own bond-mates..
@50: Renarin is also a prince who is treated as a prince and while some girls may find him creepy, there is no indications they told him to his face. It could also be Renarin does not desire so much interaction with his peers or it could be he isn’t interested in relationship with girls, at 19, it is entirely plausible. I sincerely doubt anyone would have dared bully the son of the most feared man in Alethkar and the brother of the impulsive sword prodigy named Adolin. Besides, Acrobacar states being fond of Renarin, so it is false to think the entire world hates Renarin.
I don’t get the janitor comment… You seem to take Renarin for the equivalent of lighteye of the 10th dahn… Nobody ever treated Renarin as anything less than a prince. He is also helping his father and his brother in managing the princedom, even if we don’t see much of it. His negative feelings all seem tied in to his inability to become a soldier: this seems to be the nerve of the problem.
Renarin had the possibility to enter the Ardentia and become an engineer. He also had the possibility of becoming a city lord, all positions I would qualify way above being “Heaven’s janitor”. The fact is Renarin refuses to take the steps towards position who would have made him useful because they weren’t what he wanted.
@53: I don’t think it is the brokenness who attracts the spren, but overcoming hardships in a given way. Kaladin overcome Tien’s death by striving to protect his squad. Syl did not come to him because Tien died, but because Kaladin tried to protect, despite Tien being dead.
@54: These thoughts have crossed my mind as well… Kaladin certainly isn’t the only good soldier who tried to protect his men above all. Why him? Why not another? And why chose the one who ends up having the worst life story ever? Syl was with Kal before he was made slave and a bridgemen… What struck of luck was it he ended in such a predicament life present him the perfect occasion to learn his oaths (rescuing Dalinar’s army)? Sincerely, what else could have forced Kaladin to learn it or his third oath? It almost seem convenient…
Regarding Renarin’s brokenness.. We don’t know his back story and we won’t have Dalinar’s until SA3. And the idea has been thrown around in the comments before, but what if something happened to Renarin when he was younger? Something so bad that Dalinar sought out the Old Magic. It’s my understanding that the Night Watcher is associated with Cultivation so maybe Renarin gained a Cognitive/Cultivation connection (try saying that 3 x’s fast) much like Lift. Or maybe it marked him as a child of Cultivation.
Also, long time reader first time commenter blah blah blah.. I’m always so late to the game that somebody will post what I’m thinking before I get s chance lol.
@56: The direct children of Cultivation aren’t the Truthwatchers, but the Edgedancers… Brandon stated, that Syl was the purest form of honorspren, Wyndle was the purest form of cultivationspren.
Renarin is not a child of Cultivation: he is a mix of two things.
I also personally do not endorse the theory Renarin was “healed” by Dalinar’s boon. For one, the timing is wrong. If Renarin was terribly sick, then why wait until he is a teenager to seek help? His visit also too conveniently happened after the “faithful night where he nearly killed his brother out of pure jealousy” to not be connected to it. For second, Renarin is still disabled. Had he been “healed” by the Nightwatcher, he would have been rid of his fits… but he isn’t. He is not healthy, so he can’t have been healed. I would expect such healing to be… complete.
Also, as far as we know, all spren “connection” occurred no prior than 6 years ago which makes me think their return is recent. There is no evidence sprens came before that and it strikes as implausible. Why? They haven’t come in centuries. They are coming now. There thus was a determining event which prompt them to come back to humanity. This event would be fixed in time and it seems tied with Gavilar’s death. I thus seriously doubt any spren occur prior to that moment. Renarin’s bond with Glys likely started in WoK.
@39 My point about knot’s law and hard-body training, was that by breaking something and then reforging it (the bones for example) it becomes STRONGER then it was before. That seems like a metaphor for the knights radiant, by being broken and reforged they become stronger.
On another note I am speculating that the role of bondsmiths like Dalinar is to keep all of various orders of knights radiant together, As said before the various orders would often clash do to their wildly different personalities. This could have easily lead to the knights fracturing. That’s where the bondsmitths come in, part of their second oath is to bring men together, and I bet that includes the KR themselves.
Well, Jasnah’s surgebinding started BEFORE Gavilar’s assassination. Minutes before, but still before. I am under the impression that Gavilar, the war, the ghostbloods, surgebinding, etc. are all effects, with the cause still unknown.
I am sure it was something to do with the first Listener/Alethi meeting, since the only thing we know about the meeting was “it happened”. Literally everything else about it has been kept quiet, but I expect that what happened there will be the Big Backstory Wham Revelation of book 3.
@45
There are indications that allomancy is not all that uncommon during the Lord Rulers’ time, but rather it was just restricted to the nobles or halfnobles. The Lord Ruler found enough soothers to keep the entire skaa population suppressed and there were enough Atium mistings to protect the Kandra homeland. However, Harmony did tone down the ‘snapping’ process and the general population has a better understanding of all 16 of the metals as opposed to the previous understanding, so it might seem like there are more, but one additional thing to keep in mind was the population during the Lord Ruler’s time initially started with several Mistborn. Post Harmony’s Acension, the population only had one mistborn to spread his genes around (although I believe he was somewhat prolific in this regard). Since this one is so strongly tied to genetics, I am not convinced that the prevalence of allomancers or feuchemists has anything to do necessarily by the number of shards present.
@59: I do not thin Gavilar death is the event that precisely set things in motions, but it seems likely events around the return of the sprens occurred at around this time. Dalinar’s visit to the Nightwatcher happened 3 years prior to this event. I doubt it has anything to do with surgebinding and Nahel bonds.
@@@@@ 58 BenW
It makes sense in theory. But the problem is whether you break someone emotionally, psychologically, and/or physically they really don’t heal stronger.
It’s much more accurate to say they heal differently. It’s very much a zero sum game. Sure broken bones heal “stronger” sometimes. But organs, blood vessels, ligaments and nerves just collect cumulative damage as a result.
Likewise if someone has a psychotic break, even if they pull out of it, they become far, far more likely to have another one in the future.
And then there’s emotional pain: people subjected to high amounts quite often simply becoming numb to it. Worse, they eventually lose sensitivity not only to their own pain but to the suffering of others. Veterans, first responders, medical professionals, and journalists are often found in this group.
Which all just circles back around to my own theory: If the spren were operating under the theory of “break them to make them stronger” and purposefully engineering or at least willfully complacent in the circumstances that broke them in the first place, then finding that out is likely what made the KR of old quit.
FWIW, I think we need to be a little cautious with our assumptions of what it means to be “broken” according to a spren, or to meet the requirements of Brandon’s magic systems. It may be something much different than the “major emotional trauma effect” that we keep expecting.
Remember, we don’t really know what Renarin’s childhood was like. I can’t wait for his flashback book to find out. What we do know is that his mother died when he was young. And, between fighting in Gavilar’s wars, going to the Nightwatcher, and being drunk, Dalinar probably wasn’t around much. Adolin, the golden boy, child prodigy dualist, set the bar high. After their mother died, Adolin, at least, had something to throw himself into. Also, we don’t know how sick Renarin was. He may have had a life threatening seizure or any number of problems that could lead to breaking.
@61:
Storming auto correct wouldn’t let me use the regular term for Eshonai’s race, so I had to improvise with a word auto correct would let me use. I wasn’t talking about Nightwatcher, I was talking about them.
Doesn’t the Desolation start because the last Herald still bound to the oathpact gives up?
@66 You have a point. Talenel doesn’t appear until the end of WoK, years after Gavilar’s death. While in his own personal hell since the last Desolation, was he privy to all of Odium’s machinations on Roshar? Was the knowledge that people were actively trying to bring back the voidbringers actually part of his suffering? Because only if he gave in would they succeed. As long as he held out, whoever was working for Odium would fail. What made him give up at this particular time? (smoke billowing for the top of my head)
Can’t wait until Talenel’s book!
One more question: would the proto-Radiants be able to attain full knighthood without the threat of a pending desolation?
Quick question – how and where did the idea that someone has to be broken to be a radiant? Other than Syl telling Kaladin that “all of them are broken” I cannot think of any other instance,
From the jacket of WoR
@67 Prior to the Recreance, I think proto-Radiants became knights with or without the threat of a desolation. The coming desolation is a factor now because it’s making he spren are worried enough about Odium that they’re reaching out to humans despite the Recreance.
The scary thing is the Nahel bond perhaps is not always positive. I wish to know how many proto-knight failed to made it in the end… For how many was the journey too harsh? How many were further destroyed by it?
Wetlander @63, I concur. Many posters seem to equate “being broken” with some form of physical or emotional trauma, but, clearly, that is not a prerequisite for being chosen by a spren, witness Shallan’s advanced surgebinding capabilities by age 11, which occurred before she suffered her emotional trauma.
Alisonwonderland @72 – You are right about Shallan. I believe she was a normal happy child before that fatal day when she was 11. And as already explained in WoR, the Cryptics define “lies” different from we do. They think that sarcasm, exaggeration, metaphors and other figures of speech are “lies” because cryptics are LITERAL.
That said, I am standing my ground about Renarin being not broken. Oh yes, he has issues, but come to think of it, everyone has issues. We will find out soon enough when SA3 comes out.
Moving on… as already mentioned here, there are two ways to become a knight radiant – by binding with a spren or via squirehood. I can already see that Kaladin’s “squires” will come from Bridge 4.
What about Shallan? I wonder if Lightweavers have squires. I wonder if her guards (Gaz, Vatha and the other 16 will be her squires. It will also be interesting if her brothers, Paloma and Sebarial become her squires too. But, that’s just too way out there.
Just a thought.
@73: Sheilagh, I agree with you, though I am tempted to disagree simply to steer more activity into this discussion…
I personally have come to believe the “broken” requirement is an over-statement. What makes you a Radiant is not the level of trauma you lived, but how you choose to live your life despite the hardships. Everyone has hardships, it is false to assume there are perfect people. Everyone struggles with something and that something may be insignificant to others, it is meaningful to ourselves.
I have also come to believe those who strong enough to endorse their own belief despite everything will inadvertently carry on cracks to their soul as being the one who always disagrees is hard. Even in a conversation thread about a book, I have once mentioned how difficult I personally found at times to always seem to be the one in disagreement with the mass. This was only for a book… imagine when it is about something more… meaningful? Feeling alone in your line of thoughts is hard, hard enough to make you think twice, to make you compromise on what you belief simply to remove the pressure. All of those who have become Radiants have shown this resilience, this capacity to remain true to their path, no matter what life throws at them.
Dalinar wants to enforce the code.
Kaladin wants to protect.
Renarin wants to learn to be a soldier.
Shallan wants to draw patterns (and also find the truth).
Jasnah wants to find the truth.
They are all set on a given path which have nothing to do with their past or events tied into their past. I thus don’t believe they are Radiants because they lived a trauma, but because of who they are. The trauma is not required, but is helping them being noticed as if you are still true to your belief after suffering a massive blow, then you are hardcore. I thus think Kaladin’s ordeal make him pop up more than another person, but it is not the reason he was chosen.
As for squires, it has been confirmed Bridge 4 are all squires to Kaladin, including Lopen.
Gepeto @74 – Yes, you’re right. :-) We need the thread to continue. :-)
On a side note, I’m listening to the Cycle of Arawn right now, which is a fantastic listen or read, depending on how you’re consuming it. I have to amuse myself with other books while waiting for SA3. Arghh… It’s really hard to wait!!! Waah!!!
As for Kaladin’s squires – yes, I figured it will be confirmed by now. It was almost a given at the end of WoR. I just want to know if Shallan is going to get squires. I can already imagine Pattern talking to them. LOL Syl has been very funny with Bridge 4 when she appeared to them. And Syl is a “serious” spren to begin with. Pattern is slightly neurotic. LOL That’s how I see him. It will be a hoot listening in to his conversations with Gaz and Vatha if Brandon decides to insert a scene with them. :-)
@75 I’m pretty sure squires are only a windrunner thing
@@@@@ 75 and 76
Squires are not necessarily a Windrunner thing only. “The strength of their squires” is the mark of distinction for the Windrunners per a WoB., But that in no way denies or confirms other orders having them.
It just means that the squires of Windrunners are unusually strong–and if the Lopen is any indication–able to use stormlight to heal themselves at the bare minimum.
My guess is that once Kaladin has fully progressed through his oaths, his squires will be able to use the adhesion and gravitation surges too (though probably to a lesser degree).
@77 my bad, I remembered the quote wrong
@77. That would be some thing to see, Bridge 4 using surges like Kaladin, really awesome!
Squires have no spren. Squires say no oaths (that we know about yet.)
They can heal themselves.
Have their other powers been confirmed? It just seems wrong they would gain all a KR powers without spren or oaths.
Still hoping to see more interaction between Shallan’s group and Bridge 4.
But Sanderson is doing great at giving us the wide scope of the world – without 10,000 character PoVs.
@@@@@ 80 Braid_Tug
There has been no confirmation.
However I’m guessing that squires at the very least get the temporarily enhanced reflexes and strength that goes along with holding stormlight if they can breath it in to heal themselves.
It also seems likely that Windrunner squires in particular probably get something more–access to one or both of the surges belonging to their parent order makes the most sense. Even if they can, I would doubt that they could use them to the same level of proficiency and power as their full patron knight, and their access is probably dependent upon their Knight’s having progressed through most if not all the oaths.
But that’s all speculation. We know something makes Windrunner squires special, just not what. If it’s that they can access stormlight only enough to heal themselves, then the other squires (if they exist) would all necessarily be relegated to virtually no benefits at all.
Only time will tell.
@75: We all have to amuse ourselves with other books while we are waiting. I am currently starting book 3 of the Codex Alera. I like Tavi, him being powerless works very well in the world at hand, a world where people forgot how to do anything without the help of magic and have to come believe it a requisite. The premise is thus completely different than the Stormlight Archive where they managed to built a world without the “magic” (just science), but are now facing foes which cannot be defeated without it. I thus maintain my previous position concerning certain potential outcomes.
I also fear at times I have looked so heavily within the Stormlight Archive, I start being aggravated by issues which didn’t initially bothered me. I have also become more polarized in my commentaries. The “brokenness” discussion was interesting, it would have been nice to keep it going some more. I love how this re-read allow us to start with a given topic and diverge on others as the flow of a normal conversation.
@80: Yes. I too love the fact Brandon kept the cast small. It is more enjoyable to follow a limited number of characters as opposed to a larger cast. However, if I were to offer a critic, I would say the downside of the chosen book structure is we have been told who would become flashback characters. As a result, those characters have automatically been promoted to major ones (and those without have been demote to the role of sides) without having have the requisite development and POV within the main story arc. This is especially true of characters set to appear in the second arc… most are currently very minor is not pratically inexistant, but we are forced to treat them as “main”. That is an issue, for me, as a reader and a critic.
@81: Windrunners squires are supposed to be stronger than other squires. What “stronger” means is yet to be seen, I agree.
I tend to agree with Alice here: “broken” can mean many things, and each of us will have our own definitions of it. Why should we expect the spren to be any different? A Cryptic may require a much different type of broken than an Honor Spren would, and even if we break it down to individual orders – would one specific Cryptic require exactly the same type of broken as another cryptic? I don’t know – it hasn’t been defined that way. I personally tend to lean towards the idea that these bonds are very PERSONAL things, and what works for one spren/human pairing won’t necessarily work in exactly the same way for another, even within the same order.
As to the idea that the Listener dissidents escaped via the Oathgate, I have a hard time believing they would be able to activate the gate without a Radiant, and I don’t believe there was a radiant there (and whether they would have enough stormlight to allow for the travel). However, who’s to say they didn’t find some sort of cave type structure leading into the interior of the Oathgate Plateau, which offered them shelter from the Highstorms and also transported them to Urithiru when Shallan took the armies?
brovery @83 – Oh, now that’s an idea I could love… that the dissidents found some kind of shelter and ended up going to Urithiru with the armies. :) I don’t know that I think it’s all that likely, but it’s a lovely idea. And not impossible, by any means yet known. *sigh* Now we get to wait and find out…
On brokenness: IIRC Vin snapped during childbirth, whereas Kelsier somehow survived decades of thieving and who knows what kind of physical and emotional dangers without snapping (until the Pits of Hathsin). And wasn’t there WoB that Parshendi are broken from the get-go, allowing them to bond spren and take forms? I suspect that each soul’s threshold for breaking is different. I also suspect that, in terms of the magic (although not the person’s character), how the break happened is much less important than the fact that a break exists.
So, magically speaking, I don’t really care how Renarin broke/will break, but I’m absolutely interested in learning more down the line about what makes him tick.
On the timing of brokenness and bonding: To sum up: We’ve seen two characters, Kaladin and Shallan, that seem to exhibit some proto-radiance before they appear to have broken. I agree with the posters that think Shallan broke during the events of “Red Carpet, Once White” and its aftermath. Obviously, she’d already bonded Pattern and progressed far enough to have a Pattern-blade. With Kaladin, I’m less sure exactly when he broke – it could have been when Tien died, or sometime during his year as a slave – but Syl seems to have been looking for him before either event and definitely has memories of being with him in Amaram’s army. However, unlike Shallan, Kaladin does not progress as a KR until after he is unequivocally broken. As many have noted, the question becomes how the spren anticipated the pre-req.
All right, here comes my theory!
I believe we know that the Nahel-capable spren are Splinters of some mix of Honor and Cultivation. We also know that Honor and Cultivation both had some degree of ability to see the future, although Cultivation was better at it.
I’m on board with the general theory that the spren for male Herald-led orders are more Honor-ish, and those for female-led orders are more Cultivation-y (totally a word!). I believe that, as intelligent Splinters of those Shards, Nahel-capable spren have some capacity for precognition, and spren which are more of Cultivation are better at it.
Throw in a dash of time and space getting fuzzy in matters Spiritual, and I think you have a pretty good explanation for why both Pattern and Syl could jump the brokenness gun in finding and initiating bonds with Shallan and Kaladin – not because they were broken, but because they would be – but Pattern, who’s more of Cultivation, located his human more efficiently. If I’m right, Pattern’s admission that Shallan is right to hate him makes a lot of sense – and is incredibly poignant.