Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we launched into Part Five with unexpected alliances and revelations. This week, Shallan passes the time with a new/old book and shares scholarship with Navani, while Kaladin begins to take small steps back toward Honor.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 77: Trust
Point of View: Shallan, Kaladin
Setting: Shattered Plains, Bridge Four barracks
Symbology: Pattern; Palah, Chana
IN WHICH the armies set off; slow can be majestic; a book arrives; the march turns out to be rather boring, but the book certainly isn’t; the Weeping begins, and Shallan finds it comforting; Navani joins Shallan in her carriage; their collaboration begins; the existence of living Knights Radiant is finally revealed to someone who is not a Surgebinder; the Weeping begins, and Kaladin finds it miserable; he continues to grieve for Sylphrena; Moash comes for a visit; the assassination plan is revealed – and it will be so easy; Kaladin begins to show a deeper understanding, and expresses doubt; Moash is concerned, but Kaladin cannot stop it.
Quote of the Week
Kaladin looked up at his friend. “I think she left because of the plot to kill the king, Moash. I don’t think a Radiant could be involved in something like this.”
“Shouldn’t a Radiant care about doing what is right? Even if it means a difficult decision?”
“Sometimes lives must be spent for the greater good,” Kaladin said.
“Yes, exactly!”
“That’s what Amaram said. In regards to my friends, whom he murdered to cover up his secrets.”
“Well, that’s different, obviously. He’s a lighteyes.”
Kaladin looked to Moash, whose eyes had turned as light a tan as those of any Brightlord. Same color as Amaram’s, actually. “So are you.”
I see this as the beginning of Kaladin’s conscious return to his Ideals, as he connects the attitudes of Amaram and Moash to one another and to the effect his support of Moash had on Sylphrena. He’s beginning to get past the mourning stage and is starting to take responsibility.
Oh, Kaladin. You were always so ready to take the blame for things you couldn’t control; now you’re beginning to get back to being accountable for your own decisions. It is a beautiful thing.
Off the Wall
One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture.
–From the Diagram, Floorboard 27: paragraph 6
And… what weapon would this be? Something to do with Surgebinding, apparently… but what? I’m wondering if this is related Gavilar’s black sphere. At one point, Szeth thought of it as being safely hidden in Jah Keved, but might he have passed it – or its location – to his master Taravangian? It seems like there ought to be other alternatives, but this is the only object I can think of that could, potentially anyway, be “deployed.” Speculation, please!
Commentary
And so it begins. (There is a hole in your mind…) (…Also, heh. Yes, there really IS a hole in Dalinar’s mind, come to think of it. Of a somewhat different nature than Jeffrey Sinclair’s, but there it is.)
Anyway. The expedition finally sets off in its motley but majestic array. Ryshadium, horses, carriages, bridges, scholars, scribes, mistresses, Soulcasters… oh, and four armies’ worth of soldiers. Let’s not forget them!
I love the tidbit at the beginning, with Shallan wondering why Gaz wasn’t there, and wondering if, just maybe, she should have looked more closely into his debt issues. (Ya think? Not that I expect it to actually become an issue, but the principle would have been sound… as I believe we’ve discussed once or twice.) The follow-up makes it splendid – when he runs to catch up to her, carrying her very own worn, faded, well-used, but real copy of Words of Radiance. Aw, Gaz. Well done. (Also: I really want to know where Brandon is going with Gaz.)
Also also: when do we get to learn what really is that “wicked thing of eminence”??
To me, the best part of this chapter is when Navani joins Shallan, and really joins forces with her. It clearly takes effort on both sides; Navani has to consciously avoid taking over, and Shallan has to be willing to share her notes and what she retrieved of Jasnah’s. I do appreciate Navani’s straightforwardness in assuring Shallan that she’s not going to steal the project, because really, it’s the obvious thing to do. She’s fifty, and Shallan is seventeen; who is likely to be the better scholar? But Navani places herself in the position of advisor and facilitator: arranging for copies to be made, connecting with archeologists for landmark identification, tapping surveyors to measure and scholars to research quotations.
I know that’s all important stuff, and it’s critical to the mission at hand, but this…
“You’re still human,” Shallan said, reaching across, putting her hand on Navani’s knee. “We can’t all be emotionless chunks of rock like Jasnah.”
Navani smiled. “She sometimes had the empathy of a corpse, didn’t she?”
“Comes from being too brilliant,” Shallan said. “You grow accustomed to everyone else being something of an idiot, trying to keep up with you.”
“Chana knows, I wondered sometimes how I raised that child without strangling her. By age six, she was pointing out my logical fallacies as I tried to get her to go to bed on time.”
Shallan grinned. “I always just assumed she was born in her thirties.”
“Oh, she was. It just took thirty-some years for her body to catch up.” Navani smiled.
The near echo of Gavilar’s words to Jasnah in the Prologue is worth noting, but there are other things as well. One, the “cold and emotionless” aspect of Jasnah’s character is not in itself the result of some trauma; it’s just who she’s always been. Brilliant and logical from an early age, and never a terribly affectionate child, she grew into a woman who was brilliant, logical, and completely impatient of the perceived folly of many around her. I wonder if she’d have had to temper that attitude if she hadn’t been the king’s daughter.
She wasn’t actually emotionless, of course, but her ability to relate to other people was definitely affected by her lack of empathy for them. Her father was different; I’m beginning to wonder if the trauma Shallan suspected (back in TWoK Chapter 36) had to do more with Gavilar’s assassination than something that was done to her directly.
The insight into Navani’s character also gives us a different angle than we’ve seen before. As Elhokar’s mother, she has come across as loving but pragmatic; she knows he’s not very good at being king and makes no bones about saying so, at least within the family. As Dalinar’s old/new love interest, she’s attractive and – for their society – quite aggressive in going after what she wants. As a scholar and artifabrian, she’s clever and insightful, even while mostly accepting her socially-acceptable role of sponsor rather than engineer. Here, though, we see the mother of a strong-willed daughter, who loved deeply but still felt disconnected from her firstborn. (As the mother of a strong-willed daughter, I can sort of relate…)
On a slight rabbit trail, it’s amusing to note the differences between Shallan’s and Kaladin’s reactions to the Weeping. To Shallan, it’s soft and pleasing; to Kaladin, it’s miserable and gloomy.
Stormwatch
This chapter takes place on days 1 and 2 of the expedition, with the opening section on day 1 and the remainder on day 2. This corresponds to days T-8 and T-7 of the countdown. Not long now…
Sprenspotting
Syl, once again, is noticeable by her absence, but her influence is working. It’s good to see.
Pattern, on the other hand, is busy! Now that Shallan has her hands on a copy of the in-world Words of Radiance, and some time to read, his assistance is invaluable.
Pattern had offered some few insights, but mostly he had been of use telling her what sounded likely to have been real, and what from the book was a mistake based on hearsay. His memory was spotty, but growing much better, and hearing what the book said often made him remember more.
I find this unutterably cool. The fact that Pattern (and Syl) actually can’t remember very much keeps them from being a system cheat, and I’m glad it’s set up that way. At the same time, access to something like this that can help Pattern remember, however sporadically, is an excellent find. And, of course, the fact that it only kind of helps, because it’s not exactly accurate… Help, but not too much help. Me likey.
So, anyway, lots of good info here on how the Knights Radiant used to function, according to memory and hearsay from a couple hundred years later. At the moment, I can’t remember how much of it was actually new to us when we read this, and how much was just new to Shallan, but it’s good stuff.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Roshar sure does breed some nasty specimens. The whitespine, and Shallan’s observations on it, remind me a little of the wild boars of old English stories… except nastier, if possible. Yikes. Seriously, looking at this thing, the stories don’t seem at all exaggerated. It could take on several men at once and destroy them all, if it wanted to.
It’s also a nice little side view into Shallan-the-natural-history-buff; it’s sometimes easy to forget that she’s been studying the flora and fauna for most of her life.
Heraldic Symbolism
The Heralds seem relatively straightforward this time (for once!). Shallan, poring over her new book and her maps, coordinating efforts with Navani and her scribes, is definitely in the role of Scholar for the entire chapter; Palah is clearly indicated. Kaladin, however imperfectly, is returning to his role as Guard, and even beginning to inch toward becoming a true bodyguard for his king, as he begins to recognize the inappropriateness of his approval of – much less participation in – Moash’s assassination plot; hence, Chana.
I’m not entirely sure what the title of the chapter refers to, since the word itself is only used twice in the text, but here are three possibilities:
- The first usage of the word, where Adolin tells Shallan to trust him about the gentle horse he chose for her; this could be extended to trusting his recommendation to avoid overdoing it, and make use of the carriage. I actually like this, because later she thinks about being closed up in the carriage and reminds herself that not everyone who tries to take care of her will be like her father.
- The second usage, when Moash tries to confirm that he can still trust Kaladin with the assassination plot information. (Turns out he can’t – and it’s a good thing, but that’s for later.) In reverse, there’s also the question of Kaladin trusting Moash.
- Shallan taking the plunge to tell Navani that Jasnah could Soulcast, and was actually one of the Knights Radiant. Okay, it’s not as much of a plunge as admitting that she herself can also Surgebind would have been… but it’s a start, and it did require a measure of trust.
Shipping Wars
He grinned, Shardplate helm hanging from his saddle so as to not mess up his hair. She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn’t.
That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind, noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or… or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.
Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him.
He was. Like the wind and rocks were.
Well. For all the attraction of the “dangerous unknown,” that’s a stark reminder that Kaladin is definitely “unknown” to Shallan. At this point in time, those last three sentences are incredibly ironic – Kaladin is anything but secure, stable, determined, unchangeable. Appearances to the contrary, Kaladin is hurt, broken, damaged almost beyond recovery, and she doesn’t have a clue to that side of him.
In recent weeks, there’s been a lot of talk about how much Shallan and Kaladin opened up to each other during the highstorm, and what a marvy basis for a relationship that is… but when you look at it more closely, they really didn’t. They didn’t go anywhere near the whole truth. They just cracked the door open an inch or so.
Kaladin didn’t mention Syl, the issues surrounding her departure, Moash and Elhokar, anything to do with fighting Szeth, or becoming a Windrunner. He didn’t talk about Tien, or Hearthstone, or Roshone, or his bitterness against being caught in the middle – too high for the other darkeyes and too low for the lighteyes. He only talked about the part where he was a slave – betrayal by Amaram (not the whole truth) up through the Tower. He didn’t even talk about being bought back by Dalinar, though one could perhaps assume that she would have heard that story already.
For her part, Shallan didn’t tell of killing her mother, of blanking out everything that had happened that night; nor did she mention Pattern or Surgebinding in any way. She talked of her abusive father, of her wretched home life between the time of her mother’s death and her father’s, of trying to keep her brothers from giving up or getting themselves killed, and finally of going to Jasnah to steal the Soulcaster, being accepted as a ward, and being causally betrothed to Adolin. She didn’t talk about Tyn, the Ghostbloods, or spying on Amaram – which was obviously relevant to Kaladin’s story, but since she couldn’t talk about how she got in, she didn’t talk about it at all.
Both of them left out vast, significant parts of who they are and how they got there. Before it was over, Kaladin figured out that Shallan was a proto-Radiant, but not because she wanted him to know. Kaladin didn’t actually tell her much that she couldn’t have learned from his men; she didn’t tell him much beyond what she’d already told Jasnah – and certainly her brothers knew it all. Neither one let the other into the deepest, darkest, most closely-held secrets. It was new information for them, in terms of getting to know one another, but when it comes right down to it, they spoke of very little that’s not already known to multiple other people.
All things considered, I’m beginning to realize it may not be quite as significant as we’d assumed. It was awesome in terms of them realizing that the other was less shallow and annoying than they’d thought, and in developing some kind of functional working relationship and perhaps actual friendship, but there are a lot of secrets left.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when a secret is revealed and Parshendi are encountered.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and she is extraordinarily excited about the upcoming JordanCon. Anyone who is going to be there needs to connect with the StormCellar gathering on Friday night, 9:00-ish, location tbd. There’s a rumor that she’s offered to buy the first round…
On first reading, I though that the “potent weapon” referred to Szeth
A triad would solve/avoid all these looming shipping problems.
I’m just sayin’.
And Hi, Kal! You’re almost back to where you were at the beginning of the book! Isn’t life grand?
I disagree with Shallan’s assessment of Adolin. He is uneducated, yeah. But IMO, in all the ways that actually matter, he’s one of the most intelligent characters in the series.
Every suspicion he has is correct.
-He suspects that Dalinar isn’t carefully considering his visions in WoK. He’s right.
– He suspects that Sadeas will lead them into a trap. He’s right.
– He suspects that Kaladin is keeping secrets. He’s right. He is even smart and humble enough to change his assessment when new info is presented.
In addition, he’s smart enough to play dumb when it suits him. (Laziness or so he can put others at ease) He kinda reminds me of Mouse from the Dresden Files. Powerful and intelligent, but wants to be accepted, so he puts on a show to hide his abilities.
tcopenha @1. I think the potent weapon is spren starting to bond humans again. The Diagram says that trouble could come from those who recently bonded a spren from testing the attributes of the new spren. For example, Shallan creating the Veil persona and infiltrating the Ghostbloods. Such an action may be in conflict with what the Diagram feels needs to occur.
Alice, IMO the chapter title referred to Shallan trusting somebody else (in this case Navani) to share the extent of Shallan’s research. Shallan tried to get Navani’s help but know that she has it, she has to be willing to let go. In this sense, Shallan is like Dalinar and wants to be in control of things within her sphere. Navani had to trust herself enough to not see Shallan as a reminder of Jasnah’s death but as a real person who has knowledge that can help Dalinar’s cause.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@2 – Almost back to the beginning, but with some of his demons (Amaram, questions about trust in Dalinar/Adolin) exorcised. Even without the Oath leveling up he gets, he’d still be in a better position if/when he gets Syl back.
Of course with it he’s far better.
I agree with @1 tocopenha that the “potent weapon” mentioned in the Diagram is Szeth. He has been alluded to elsewhere in the Diagram and is certainly the point of Taravangian ordering Szeth to insure the separation of Dalinar from the unknown male Surgebinder (alleged honorblade possessor) before attacking the former. We have not been given any indication that Taravangian knows the location of Gavilar’s black stone and may not even be aware of its existence. It being the subject of this Diagram message is, therefore, unlikely.
@1 @6 I also think it refers to Szeth, especially in light of the next chapter’s epigraph:
I’m not convinced being a ‘true’ bodyguard is all that laudable. I’m willing to say it depends on the quality of the ruler, but I’m not really in favor of anyone giving up all their own personal values to guard someone else without judging them and their actions.
@1 and @6
I read the ‘potent weapon’ remark as referring to Szeth too. Certain views about Honorblades and Surgebinding hold a central place in Shin beliefs, and seeing his culture’s beliefs shown incomplete or wrong is what causes Szeth to unravel. This passage from the Diagram suggests Taravangian is somewhat educated about Shin culture and religion (more than we are at this point) and needs to take precautions with his Truthless.
Actually, I would say that the weapon being referred to isn’t Szeth specifically. It’s the Heralds’ Honorblade(s). Remember, he doesn’t mention the idea of Truthless until after mentioning that “they were left behind” due to the nature of the bond. Szeth is the wielder of the weapon, but the weapon being deployed is the Honorblade itself.
I think as of Words of Radiance, the only answer we can assume for the Diagram section for this chapter is that it refers to Szeth. It could be other things, but in terms of potent weapons we’ve seen used by Taravangian, Szeth really is the only answer that sounds right from what we know. The Diagram mentions making a Truthless: even if the Honorblade is what gives Szeth his ability to be such a devastating weapon, it’s the whole of the nature of a Truthless that Taravangian wanted. Of course, pretty sure Graves ALSO makes this conclusion by the end of the book, which makes me think there’s another part to this we don’t know yet, as it seems too cut and dry to be just about Szeth then. But as for what else it might be, that I have no clue.
The chapter title actually brought back memories of the same title in Hero of Ages (there it referred to the huge Atium stash, while here I think it’s an apt title for both Kaladin and Shallan’s plots).
Like most others, I agree that the weapon is most likely in reference specifically to Szeth. I would make specific note of the way the weapon is referred to:
Nothing we’ve read gives even the slightest hint that Taravangian has the capacity to deploy a spren bond. No, this is clearly an actual weapon, either in the form of a physical weapon or a person who is himself a weapon. Next, consider the descriptor “such a potent.” Of the weapons we’ve seen to this point, Szeth is clearly the most potent. It could, of course, be in reference to a different, also-very-potent weapon, but in light of the following quotes, I think it’s clear that it refers specifically to Szeth.
First, the danger involved is clearly the level-up of a Nahel bond:
And, when Kaladin DOES level-up and invest, there’s this quote from Graves:
I think the connection here is obvious – they focused on separating him from Dalinar, and thereby avoiding a confrontation with Szeth, in order to avoid the “potent weapon” placing him in a situation of powerful stress and his potential investiture.
On shipping Kaladin & Shallan:
I think it’s clear that there’s an attraction there, and it’s natural for Shallan to compare and contrast two very different individuals to whom she feels such an attraction. It could be the beginnings of a romantic relationship, but could also simply be a way of giving Shallan conflict in her relationships. Who does she choose? The brooding, intense, confident man? Or the light-hearted, kind, genuine man? I think Brandon could go either way on this one, and I’d be fine with it.
I also really like the correlation here between Shallan’s contrast of Kaladin & Adolin, and how it compares with Navani choosing between Dalinar (the frighteningly intense one) and Gavilar (the diplomatic one?), though I’m not sure the similarities go very far beyond that – especially weak are the comparisons between Adolin & Gavilar. We just don’t know enough about Gavilar.
Fun chapter!
First time commenting, though I’ve been following the re-read from the beginning. (So be nice please!)
While Kaladin and Shallan didn’t share their full backstories, they’ve shared a lot more of their personal demons with each other than Shallan and Adolin do. It’s possible that the latter pair will get to that point and beyond, but at this point it seems to me that Shallan is developing a relationship with both of them. The relationships are different, and she’s clearly crushing hard on Adolin. But she’s intrigued by Kaladin, and they have Surgebinding, and past traumas in common. It’s like Kaladin calls to the darker (and in a lot of ways more powerful) parts of Shallan, while Adolin allows Shallan to be who she could have been with a happier childhood.
Part of what makes this exciting in terms of the shipping wars is the fact that this is first time (on-screen, at least) Kaladin has noticed a woman in that way. We get a bit of childhood romance in WoK, but Kaladin has really only interacted with men, or ‘lighteyes’. If they’re lighteyes then they’re all evil and, he doesn’t care about their gender (or potential for romance) at all. So when Kaladin is noting that a woman is pretty, and wants her attention, AND that woman is a light-eyed main POV character, well… Chekov’s gun anyone?
Oh, and I also think the Diagram was referring to Szeth as the weapon.
I really like Shallan and Adolin, but I am scared for Adolin. My dad pointed out that His actions at the end will probably put him in the path of Nalan and his Skybreakers. Besides, Sanderson is not above killing really cool and important characters.
I think those few thoughts Shallan have towards Adolin/Kaladin probably are the strongest argument in favor of the Shallan/Kaladin ship. It is undeniable Shallan has an attraction to Kaladin, which may or may not pan into romantic interest, and it also is undeniable what she has with Adolin lacks depth. In retrospective, she is basically enforcing an old trope wanting the good genuine guy may be nice, but he is dumb, uninteresting to talk to and boring which is basically what her train of thoughts seems to say.
To echo @3, I do think Adolin has the potential to be very smart/intelligent/curious if only he would try. Those sparks of insight tells us he has good emotional intelligence, other aspects tells us he has good deducing/analytic capacities, but he seldom use them nor does he seem to have an interest in nurturing them. Hence, he will always come across as the “dumb one” even he isn’t, technically.
There has to be reasons other than his inability to open-up as to why Adolin is friendless. After all, there are plenty of people who don’t open-up and yet they have friends because there are people to care enough for them to befriend them nonetheless. So why isn’t it nobody ever cared enough about Adolin to develop a friendship: it goes both ways. I am starting to think it may because he is a rather boring guy to be around, which may be why Shallan has a hard time focusing on him.
He bores her.
Shallan may be fawning over Adolin, she is essentially bored whenever she is with him. He never does anything exciting, he doesn’t catch her humor and he isn’t educated/smart/knowledgeable/curious/interested (choose whichever fits) to entertain long detailed discussions about anything else than warfare. What he has is kindness, generosity, spontaneity, a pleasant personality and an easy laugh, but behind the facade, there isn’t much depth. We could scratch all we want, we wouldn’t find much: his range of interests is rather limited which brings down potential conversation to a bare minimum and moreover he has no trauma. Murdering Sadeas may add to it, ibut t bears no resemblance to Shallan/Kaladin’s tragic past. Shallan and Kaladin were victims, poor individuals who got dealt a bad set of cards while Adolin is the architect of his own misery. It is his fault, there is no other way to put it.
People have argued in the past as to whether Adolin could understand Shallan’s traumatic youth and if he could accept her role into murdering her parent. Can he? I do not believe this is a question we can actually answer. Kaladin however certainly can understand and I doubt he would hold it against her, even if those aren’t actions he would have done himself.
I do agree with Alice when she states Kaladin and Shallan have not shared their deepest secrets, they haven’t told each other everything, but I also agree with @13 in stating they, at the very least, shared something. It may not be technically much, it is a lot more than Adolin and Shallan shared. Sure, Adolin has nothing of interest to share, but Shallan does. She never even mentioned her family. Does Adolin even know she has brothers or is he going to find out once they arrive in the city? I suspect the later more than the former…
I also have come to believe Shallan, after spending years being cloistered, wants anything but a safe and secure wedding. In other words, she wants adventure and excitement which she will never get with Adolin. Perhaps in 10, 15 or 20 years she would calm down and desire what Adolin has to offer, but by that time, it will too late.
I tend to read Shallan as a young girl who passed her turn in having a warm, secure and happy family which would strive to create one of her own making Adolin the perfect match, but what if I was reading her wrong? What if dark, more manipulative, secretive and dreaming of adventures Shallan ends up being the true Shallan? Then Adolin would be a terrible match.
As for Jasnah and Navani, I personally have always find both characters to be rather cold. Cold does not mean emotionless, but I’d say they both lack empathy (or perhaps it is they have a hard time demonstrating it: you can feel emphatic, but saying it may be hard) and they both have a hard time showing their emotions. Even when Navani is heads over heel in love with Dalinar, she has a hard time demonstrating it. We know she does, it is obvious she does, but it lacks warmth a characteristic she seems to share with her daughter. I suspect Jasnah and Navani may be alike, deep down, which may be why they had a hard time connecting: having a child which resembles you is a hard one to process for parent. It brings back up all sort of nasty feelings which may cause distance. They love each other, it is obvious in the text at hand, but they both perhaps have a hard time telling each other.
On the shipping wars. Alice, you left out what seems to me to be the really significant part of that quote. The next line after Shallan’s thoughts about Kaladin that you quoted was:
Let’s recap. Shallan expected Adolin to make a witty comeback to her comment, as Kaladin would have done. So when Adolin only smiled and said nothing she thinks to herself the equivalent of ‘oh well, Adolin is alright, he has his good points’ and then goes on to daydream about all the things Kaladin is that Adolin is not, to the extent that she misses completely what Adolin is saying to her. And when she realizes this, she blushes!
So why would she blush if she wasn’t feeling guilty about something (comparing Adolin unfavourably to Kaladin in her mind, I think)?
It could be that this is a very subtle hint from Brandon of something going on in Shallan’s unconscious about Kaladin, despite the surface appearance of being all lovey-dovey with Adolin. Who knows. We’ll learn more in next book.
So far, even her family seems to think that Jasnah is all cold logic and no emotion. But I think that is a carefully cultivated facade. Her actions that night in the alley with Shallan, when she enticed and destroyed those four hoodlums, makes me believe that she is anything but emotionless; she has passions banked deep. I have a strong suspicion that those passions would come out when she meets just the right person to set them off, and I’m thinking that of all the people we have met so far, only Kaladin has just the right intensity, intelligence, and edge to be able to do just that. So I am shipping Jasnah-Kaladin.
@16 “Jasnah had once defined a fool as a person who ignored information because it disagreed with desired results.”
Not that our leader, Alice is a fool, but she’s on the Adolin/Shallan ‘ship hard.
In my opinion, it would actually be a disservice to all involved if that relationship moved forward. What happens after the crush goes away and they have to live together?
And at this point, she probably outranks him. She doesn’t have to do it to save/protect her family. Not that it matters sincethe Ghostbloods later found her identity and family.
I don’t think that the ‘ship works with Kaladin either. I’m excited to see it resolved, but also hope that it lasts the entire story arch at the same time.
I’ve always thought that this wasn’t merely a difference in personality. We know that some spren were created by Honor, and some by Cultivation. Kaladin bonded an honorspren, which obviously is directly related to Honor himself. Shallan, with her artistic talent, seems more aligned with Cultivation. We have Word of Brandon that we have seen Cultivation-magic. I suspect that some Surgebinding is just that.
What is the Weeping? What if the name is not metaphorical? I suspect that the Weeping is related to Honor’s death at Odium’s hands – that it is Cultivation weeping for him. It’s a time when Honor’s power is at an ebb: so no highstorms, and Kaladin languishes. And Cultivation’s power is therefore more able to manifest, which Shallan taps into for her creativity.
Of course, Kaladin doesn’t know what’s really going on with Shallan either. “She was no more broken than a spear with a chipped blade” – he thinks she’s strong and able to face life, which she is…part of the time, with some things. Neither of them understand how much the other has been broken and how much they are still struggling. But then, I’d have a hard time buying it if they did come to such a perfect knowledge of each other that quickly. The significant thing to me is that they’ve established a precedent of talking about these things and trying and wanting to understand each other. It’s going to come up again. They’re going to have chances to refine their flawed perceptions of each other.
As @13 and @15 mention, I find it significant that Shallan and Kaladin shared something dark and personal with each other, and that they chose to do it. They weren’t pushed into telling their stories by curious bridgemen (as for Kaladin) or by a need for explanations (as for Shallan with Jasnah). Some of their associates have shared their experiences, but then in those cases they didn’t have to decide to reveal anything. The actual knowledge of each other that Shallan and Kaladin gain during the highstorm is not as significant to me as their choices to reveal it. And here they are telling their stories to people they were hostile to a little while before! Shallan is showing vulnerability not to her mentor who she wronged and who she deeply respects, but to a darkeyed guard. Kaladin is sharing something important to him not with fellow bridgemen, but with a lighteyed woman. Of course they didn’t share everything, and of course they were left with imperfect ideas of each other – but they chose to reveal something and to try to understand each other.
However, this is aside from the whole issue of whether they said all this just because of the danger and adrenaline. Honestly, whenever I try to consider that angle, I wind up in a muddle in my head over author’s intent vs. plausible interpretation, and what’s realistic vs. what’s narratively likely, and what say the author and the reader have in what “actually happened” in the story…Perhaps such encounters in real life are almost guaranteed to be entirely due to the excitement and danger, but then can we definitely say, “This is what happened in Shallan and Kaladin’s case”? Can we say, “This is what should be happening in Shallan and Kaladin’s case, and if Sanderson tries to make it otherwise he will be writing badly”? Argh. At any rate, I think Sanderson could reasonably go either way at this point. So what’s really going to decide it isn’t what’s realistic, or what’s a trope, but what Sanderson wants to do given the facts and tropes involved.
Anyways, one other thing that stands out to me in Shallan’s description of Kaladin is how she sees in him, to some extent, what she wants to be. Strong, in control, independent, unable to be hurt by anyone or anything. Perhaps she’s projecting on him what she finds appealing, both for herself and maybe in other people, too.
Re: The potent weapon: This chapter’s epigraph is from Floorboard 27 of the Diagram. The epigraph about “Can we make to use a Truthless Can we craft a weapon” is from an earlier floorboard – Floorboard 17. So that also seems to indicate that the “potent weapon” refers to Szeth.
@15 Gepeto: AFAIK there isn’t anything clearly indicating either way, but Shallan does strike me too as the sort of person who would want a happy, stable family life. At least, so long as it doesn’t make her feel shut up and stifled – which it shouldn’t, but Shallan might be oversensitive to such things…
@19 David_Goldfarb: Interesting thoughts! It hadn’t occurred to me before that there might be something more to the name… Anyways, not sure if you’ve seen this WoB:
See, obviously Shallan and Kaladin need to get together because they’re like Brandon Sanderson and his wife! :) Anyhow, that WoB isn’t at all decisive; I suspect there’s something magical up with the Weeping. I find it very interesting that crem doesn’t fall with the Weeping, particularly given that crem is “Shard poop”.
@sheesania: I had not seen that one. It doesn’t surprise me that someone else had had similar thoughts and asked about them, though. Thanks.
(There is a hole in your mind…)
God bless you Alice! That that obscure line from the B5 pilot is remembered by others makes my day!
I just want to point out that Shallan’s quote refers to Kaladin’s determination as being secure and stable. I think that’s an accurate assessment. Secure and stable determination might be also be described as being hard-headed. Ever since he came back from dispair, his resolve has been unchanged. The goals may not be clear yet, but his determination is unwavering. He doesn’t know what direction is best, but there is no question that he won’t be returning to the edge of the chasm with thoughts of suicide.
Shallan’s plan was to secure her betrothal when she arrived at the shattered plains. Finding Adolin as attractive and agreeable made that part easy and even pleasant. While love can certainly come from a planned relationship, it seems most often to manifest in unexpected ways and at unexpected times.
I am totally shipping Shalladin.
I don’t think that either Kaladin or Adolin would be a particularely good match for Shallan. In my point of view, Adolin isn’t shallow, it’s just that he doesnt have anything to hide so it appears that way. He is almost always so open and honest that he just seems fake from how real he is. I do admit there are exceptions, mostly in his duels how he calculates each one for effect, but even then he still gives himself a reason for why he’s acting that way other than the end goal of challenging Sadeas. He doesn’t want to fail because he takes most things as his own fault, barring his failed relationships, which is why he shies away from making important descisions for the most part as I believe from what I’ve read of his character that he couldn’t lie to himself the same way that Shallan did. With Kaladin I am even more opposed simply because their reaction types are so opposite. Kaladin reaches out and trys to advance himself materially or so it seems, while Shallan mainly advances mentally and the oaths vs truths seem to support that. As well their problems mostly seem the same way. Kaladin struggles with material problems, whereas Shallan struggles with problems that are more decisions inside of her head. Their gives off light/lives off others light relationship may seem to naturally go together but it also can cause problems if it should ever be reversed. They just seem to opposed to each other and while sometimes opposites attract in this case i think it would do more to drive them apart after they get to know each other more. So as I said before, I honestly think it would be best for Shallan to chose someone else, or perhaps even remain single after this contest between Adolin and Kaladin dies down.
Alice, I just want to add that your reread opens whole new levels of the book for me.
Anyway, I am lost at sea on the Adolin/Shallon ship and really hope it happens. Right now and into the end of WOR it seems to be slipping away.
I’m hoping that killing Sadeus opens up a new view of Adolin to Shallan and also that it ends up with Adolin becoming a KR.
@20: I am not so sure they talked about dark things because they both wanted to. I still believe circumstances played a large role into them opening up to the extend they did: in other words had the scene played out only in a slightly different way, it would have never happened. I do think the scene was plausible, but it could have played out differently and still be plausible.
It also is significant it happened because it was a first time for either of them and it does set a precedent, but it has yet to happen in more normal circumstances. In other words, we have yet to see Shallan and Kaladin genuinely enjoy each other’s presence on a day to day basis.
What I find more significant is the fact Shallan has not seen fit to share anything about herself to Adolin, not one clue. It is clear to me her motives are purely personal and she currently does not have the intention to ever tell him much more than… nothing. It could even be she genuinely believes she doesn’t have to involve him. This may change as the story evolves, but it is bothering me. I wouldn’t mind it if she were engaged to any other lighteyed keened on similar machining, but Adolin has been set on the path to find the one true love, so to have the only girl he ever liked enough to think of going further play with him is tantalizingly cruel.
Shallan may ultimately want a stable family, but I fear this desire won’t become a truth until much, much, much later. It made me think of a book I recently read. In it, there was a character which was a player: he dated girl over girl, for the fun of it. He didn’t want to settle, he didn’t care to settle, but there was this one female friend who remained steady in his life. She was just a friend, but she was there for him when no one else was. It took years and year and years before he finally asked her to be with him, saying he didn’t want the other girls all along. She reacted quite badly as she was made to think she had to wait out for him to grow tired of the other girls…. And I do agree. I don’t want Adolin to have to wait out for 10, 15, 20 years for Shallan to want to settle down while she is carousing and having adventures while he is miserably being single and lonely. This, I would seriously hate.
@24: Adolin reads as a shallow character due to his never-ending effort to conform himself to expectations people have put on him. Since he always projects what people expect to see in him, it makes him sound fake, shallow and too perfect which isn’t too far from the truth. The Adolin we typically see whenever he is interacting with people is fake, too perfect and shallow as the true him is hiding somewhere. He is honest with his thoughts, but he isn’t honest with who he is and with what he wants. He has a hard time making a decision, not strategic ones in the scope of battles, but decisions for himself.
Perhaps he can’t lie to himself and yet he has failed to acknowledge he is the sole cause of his failed courtships. He keeps on blaming everything but himself: it calls it an oddity. He completely lacks self-awareness. The character has depth, but since these depth weren’t built in active trauma, they are deemed unimportant in the world of SA.
I wouldn’t say Kaladin struggles mostly on material problems: he seems to struggle mostly on morality ones, always trying to figure out how far he can go while still remaining honorable or more precisely how dishonorable is he willing to get to acknowledge his feelings. He is very focus on his task, but then again so is Shallan. Perhaps it would work in the sense they both would be too absorbed within their respective work to actually give each other much attention which would serve them both right. Shallan doesn’t want to be cared for, heck, I’d say she doesn’t want to be loved if I didn’t know it to be a lie, but her incapacity to simply acknowledge people who loves you will not sit still and watch harm come your way simply to avoid invading your space too much.
I don’t think Shallan is ready to allow herself to be loved. Her threshold currently is way too low: it gets to the point where she reacts badly when Adolin kindly warns her she would get sore horseback riding due to her lack of experience and she may prefer the coach! How did that even triggered her bad button?
Someone’s heart will be broken, this I can safely predict.
nixon66 @22 – :D
Any time I think of the line “And so it begins,” it continues in my head. Glad to see another B5 fan here.
Re: Shipping Shallan with Adolin and Kaladin
First, we should all remember that Shallan is 17 years old and has virtually been a prisoner at her Father’s estates. Except for her brothers, Shallan has not met any eligible men until she became Jasnah’s ward and met Kabsal who turned out to be an assassin. This will be traumatic for any young woman. And since Shallan has a very sheltered upbringing, double or triple that trauma.
Then of course, Jasnah arranged for a causal with Adolin. Shallan has only heard about the young Kholin prince from rumors. She is from rural Jha Kaved. Putting this in perspective in today’s world – imagine that Prince William is not yet married. Shallan’s causal with Adolin is like having a girl from the Scottish Highlands population 100, being told that she has a chance of marrying Prince William simply because she is a student of the Princess Royal. For any girl, that will be very hard to wrap her mind around that one.
Then, when Shallan met Adolin, she found out that he really is a nice guy. That he is good looking and easy to fall in love with is a pleasant surprise. No wonder Shallan is crushing on Adolin. She had been crushing on him long before she met Jasnah! Then meeting him and finding out that Adolin is not like the shark that she was told about how the Alethkar elite is, she is a goner. To use today’s vernacular, Adolin has Shallan at hello.
Enter Kaladin who from the very beginning Shallan has to match wits with beginning on their first meeting at the Shattered Plains. Their second meeting at Elhokar’s palace or bunker, whatever they call it was more of the same. And then of course, at the chasms where they exchange confidences.
Kaladin is the second man that Shallan felt comfortable enough to be herself. (The first one being Kabsal.) Still, Kabsal was openly showing his interest on her while Kaladin is not. In Shallan’s eyes, Kaladin is to be trusted because the Dalinar and Adolin trust him. So, being in the chasm with him, then being in a life and death situation, exchanging confidences becomes a product of their circumstance. I call the need for confession.
All things said, it really is not surprising that Shallan is also crushing on Kaladin. But, it does not mean that she had lost crush on Adolin.
I’m no longer 17 but I still remember crushing on another boy while going out with another one. Did I feel I was cheating? No. I felt guilty but since I did not do anything, except perhaps stare at that boy once or twice, then it is not cheating. It’s called hormones! LOL
Back to Shallan – Though she might have exchanged confidences with Kaladin and had shared nothing about her background with Adolin, it does not mean that Shallan had gone over to Kaladin. At the end of WOR, Shallan told Adolin that she did not want “it” to be between them. I believe “it” is her Radianthood.
Then of course, we also know that Adolin killed Sadeas. And it will weigh heavily on him. Shallan’s Radianthood is already weighing heavily on him already. Though some here are saying “poor Adolin,” I am saying, “yeah, Adolin! Face it and become a well rounded person.”
What I’m saying is that Brandon is giving Adolin more layers in his character. And as long as Brandon is doing that, I’m happy for Adolin and I’m happy as a reader.
I am not concerned very much about the Adolin/Shallan ship. I like it to go forward. I am supporting that ship. But Shallan is not my favorite female character in the Stormlight Archive. I find Jasnah more interesting. And it will take another wall of text to explain why. That’s why I’m not putting it down here and sticking with the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin triangle.
Also, we are forgetting something here. Kaladin has more experience with women compared to Adolin. LOL Adolin might be a serial dater, but I suspect that he is still holding his V-card. As for Kaladin, I believe the mysterious Tara holds Kaladin’s V-card. LOL.
I know it does not mean anything here but I see Kaladin having more thoughts of Shallan than Adolin that many will find that the Kaladin/Shallan ship is the way to go.
And though I am for the Adolin/Shallan ship, if Brandon decides that Kaladin/Shallan ship is the one that will sail, I don’t really mind as long as Adolin continues to develop as a character.
Adolin is truly my favorite character at SA. He is different from others. He is a golden boy and Prince Charming rolled into one. And if you loved fairy tales like I did when you were a child, then you have noticed that Prince Charming is just a plot device – He danced with Cinderella and married her after the glass slippers fit; He married Snow White after kissing her while she slept; He married Sleeping Beauty after kissing her and she woke up. In short, the golden boy/Prince Charming has no layers in his character.
And Brandon gave us Adolin, a golden boy and Prince Charming rolled into one with so many layers in his character with the chance of continuing to be developed. That’s why I love Adolin! So to end this wall of text, I say, “Hooray for Adolin! May you show us more layers in Book 3 with or without Shallan at your side.”
@28: Ah the Prince Charming trope, I would have to find again where it is I stated Adolin was a deconstruction of the Prince Charming trope and providing the author wills it, he has the potential to give life to a formally boring, inconsequential and forgettable character. I never was a huge fan of fairy tales as, even as a child, I found those characters blend and boring: the princesses lacking agency and the princes lacking everything including a personality. Once Upon a Time tried a spin-off of the Prince Charming trope, but they ended up turning him into an impoverish sheppard who ended up in his position due to a twist of events he had no control of, even worst the “charming” part of his personality seem to spur from the fact he wasn’t born a noble…. In other words, he turned out being yet another under-dog. It was a nice try, but it failed short out of fleshing out a character type I personally found interesting and under-used in modern day literature.
I had always wondered what hides behind the perfect facade of the Prince Charming… To be so perfect, to be so utterly devoid of defaults, surely it must come at a price especially once you figure out life never is as picture perfect as it seems. In other word, the grass often isn’t greener on the other side of the fence even if it appears so. These kind of tropes which digs behind the mask of perfection are very interesting to me which is why I was enthralled to see the making of one into a fantasy story.
I have often said book 3 with either break it or make it for Adolin as a character. It is either the author will show a definite willingness to deeply explore those layers he gave us a glimpse of or he will only browse through them in a superficial manner as they get relevant to the main narrative or, more importantly, to the development of the proclaimed main characters. The truth, I suspect, will fall somewhere in between the two extremes. Adolin will probably get more layers added to him, but he will never become a character as well rounded as Kaladin/Shallan and company. He is too outside the mold of characters Brandon generally choose to carry on his stories to truly evolve much beyond a certain point, but he has too much importance in the current narrative to be completely dropped of. It probably won’t be the complete re-spin of a dusty old trope some readers were hopping to read which means those will be left trying to find another author willing to carry it out, but it will be something. The scraps we will get may be worth it even if I yearned for something much bigger.
This being said, many readers who enjoy Adolin as a character, including myself, get the feeling the only way to keep him relevant to the story is to tie him down to one of the main character. Since we know he probably won’t evolve much on his own, he probably won’t champion much more than a side story (which may be great, but will remain a side story), having him marry Shallan basically ends up as the only assurance we are going to keep on reading about him.
I am all for Adolin getting a larger role and good character development, with or without Shallan, but since this character has been strongly defined through his incapacity to tie in relationships, it is rather heart-breaking if he doesn’t get resolution on this front. Considering the fact he has already burned the bridge with basically every single young lady his society had to offer, Shallan comes across as the “last chance girl”. If he screws it up, then there won’t be anyone for him left, especially after the truth about Sadeas gets revealed.
I agree with the commentary about teenage girl: it is indeed possible at this age to date one guy while crushing on another without intending to do anything about it other than comparing both guys. It totally happens.
An interesting question would be: “Had Shallan fall into the chasm with Adolin and had Adolin survived the fall due to him wearing his Plate, how would those last chapters played out?”. This is definitely an alternate story arc I would love to read. I wonder if Brandon would do this… give us an alternate route for a giving plot line, just for fluff.
Gepeto @@@@@ 29 – there is no Prince Charming trope because there never was. The princes in fairy tales are plot devices. Even in contemporary literature, specifically romances, the heroes are never perfect. They are usually the Beast in Beauty and the Beast.
There is an urban saying, nice guys always finish last. And that came to be because after the fairy tales, the hero has become bad ass. Thanks to the Beauty and the Beast trope.
If you really think about it even the Bronte sisters and Jane Austen never had Prince Charming. Their heroes are flawed.
As far as I know, it is only St Joseph, the husband of Mary and the adopted father of Jesus who has no faults as a husband. Perhaps the Prince Charming persona came from him. So quiet all the time. Do you know that in the whole New Testament, St Joseph was never given a quote?
That said, St. Joseph was not noble either. He was a carpenter. It is assumed that Jesus learned the trade from him. So perhaps, Disney was correct making Prince Charming not noble born in their deconstruction of the Prince Charming myth in Once Upon a Time.
Back to Adolin – that is the reason why to me, Adolin as a character has room for a lot of growth. Whether he stays with Shallan or not is truly beside the point for me. Though I totally support that ship, it is not important for me.
i want to see howAdolin will handle his murder of Sadeas. He is all sunshine and goodness. And then all of a sudden he has to face darkness. Hopefully Book 3 will show us how Adolin handles those two opposing forces.
@30: There is such trope as the Prince Charming and its origin is not the Bible, but a piece of fiction referred to as “Le Roi Charmant” written somewhere in the late 1800s. He is always noble born, so the trope in Once Upon a Time is considered averted for the prince isn’t noble born and subverted as the “real” prince was a evil. Typically, it is used to contrast the bad boy which goes back to a series of tropes wanting the girls to choose anyone but… the nice guy. Though, to be more exact, Prince Charming, to be referred as such, needs to rescue the damsel in distress and well, Adolin has not done this yet. He is however utterly perfect, noble born and often a playboy busy impressing the women with his money and titles.
To be more exact Adolin would be a mix in between Prince Charming, the Knight in Shinning Armor, the Warrior Prince and the Rich Boy. The author made him blonde and blue eyed which may not be the beauty ideal on Roshar but it is considered so in the Western parts of Earth. Well perhaps not in such terms, but inherently good characters have often been described as being blonde and blue eyes, unless a subversion happens and the author writes the opposite (example Draco Malfoy). So our Adolin is the poster boy for handsome, he has a shining armor, a magic sword and a majestic white horse. Brandon clearly specified Sureblood’s robe is not grayish white, but perfect pristine white. White, the horse is white. Brandon is not a fool, he is aware of the imagery he was creating when he made those decisions. If we look closely into the books, he didn’t bother to give physical descriptive for several characters (he once said he preferred to be sparse with those as he wished for his readers to develop their own imagery, the lack of it in the case of Renarin is particularly intriguing). He thus never put the emphasis on those, except, in the case of Adolin, the fact he is handsome and blonde is repeated at several occasions. Why? I think this may be because the whole imagery revolving around Adolin is important, considering I keep saying how the character is just a facade, his physic just adds to it.
The author wants us to see Adolin as the Golden Boy: too perfect to be true, his imperfections merely being traits he needs to slightly improve, nothing grating. I personally believe presenting Adolin as such an empty boring shell makes the revelation of hidden depth all the more enthralling and interesting.
Prince Charming behaves as he does simply for being Prince Charming, but here Brandon started to give us reasons behind the behavior. Adolin is a millionaire playboy, but the trope gets subverted when we realize being this persona hides a shy young man who is more inexperienced than everyone thinks and who’s behavior tells he tale of an insecure individual who’s afraid he is will disappoint…. the trope. In other words, Adolin is afraid he will fail at keeping his projection intact, he thinks people would be disappointed if they were to find out the truth, hence he can’t tie in relationships. He is very lonely and he tries so hard to maintain his family’s ideal of lawful good, but each time he acts on his own volition, his chaotic good alignment shines through.
The mismatch in between his rigid and incapable of compromise father’s ideals and his own form a very interesting conflict.
Adolin’s facade is about to crumble away and there is nothing I enjoy more than seeing a character unravel in an unexpected way. I seriously hope Brandon will broach this in a satisfying way.
And I do not want to see Adolin end up as a lonely bachelor for the rest of his days and without Shallan, I fear this will be his faith: he has no one else left to date. So yes, I love this ship but…. but.. There is a massive BUT to be had here.
Gepeto @@@@@ 30 – I disagree about Le Roi Charmant. It is a term used to describe an idealized person. He was never a main character but always has been just a plot device used as foil to the heroine. Except from fairy tales or nursery rhymes, there has never been a major work of literature that has the characteristic of a Prince Charming.
And there is a reason for that – because Prince Charming has always been a two-dimensional character. No words, just this handsome prince who has the uncanny ability of rescuing a damsel with distress with a kiss or other methods. But he always arrives at the end. There has never been a need to develop his character more other than his handsome description.
If you can name me a major work in literature even an obscure one outside of fairy tales about Prince Charming, then I will take back everything But right now, as I see Adolin as a unique character and he is Brandon’s gift to us.
As you already said, Adolin is a character that Brandon has painstakingly described. What are Brandon’s plans for him, I don’t know. And quite frankly, I would rather wait for the book to know.
Adolin might not be a major character in the Stormlight Archive but he stands out. If you have not noticed yet, everytime Adolin is discussed, there are so many commenters. He is a popular character and very intriguing.
If Brandon wants to deconstruct then reconstruct Prince Charming in Adolin, I will be very happy. I will take it as a gift from a very prolific writer. Maybe in 20 years or in my lifetime I will see it as a major work of literature that finally gave life to the Prince Charming persona. Right now, I am just glad that I am alive to see it happening.
You might not have a lot of interest in pop culture, but I am actually one of those who follow it. :-) From Star Trek to Star Wars, we have so many memorable characters. Yet in contemporary literature, there really is none that has stood out. Even my favorite, Wheel of Time, Rand, Matt and Perrin had stayed within that genre. Katniss Everdeen will always be identified with Jennifer Lawrence. I am unsure if Katniss will stand the test of time and become a pop culture icon on its own.
Most major works of literature comes from Europe. As an American, I lament the fact that most memorable characters from America are generated by Hollywood and not from books. If Brandon can give Americans a body of work that can rival The Lord of the Rings, then I am all for it. And if Adolin turns out to be the character that is unique for it to stand out, then I will congratulate myself for noticing him early on.
Final note, Adolin is NOT PERFECT in the eyes of the Alethi. He has foreign blood. That’s why he is blond. The Alethi has a thing about purity of blood. So, from the beginning. Brandon has already deconstructed the Prince Charming ideal, then built it on.
@32: Well, according to TvTropes, this is were the trope first originated. The name “Prince Charming” has first been used in this “Le Roi Charmant”, but it turned into a trope another piece of work referred to as “The Picture of Dorian Gray” which is not something I am familiar with. Not being English myself, I have not been acquainted with the classic of this literature. My understanding is the “Le Roi Charmant”, without actually writing this character, introduced the idea of a trope and it took on.
You are right in stating Prince Charming is not a trope which has created a long string of memorable characters: it is quite the contrary. It has been mostly used to introduce foil characters with a reduced role into the story, mainly to rescue the damsel in distress without giving the reader the chance to read this particular tale. The Prince just arrives on the side (how, when and through which path, we never know) and he does his charming thing in order to create a happily ever after.
If Prince Charming has a journey, we the readers, never got to read it which make me yearn even more for Brandon to capitalize on it.
I unfortunately cannot name you one particular piece of fiction revolving around the character of Prince Charming (I am assuming you mean a piece of work where he would be the main character and not a side one). I would say Ella Enchanted but he is nothing more than an idiotic naive fool serving as a comical relief for a movie featuring a strong reality check for a princess (good movie, if you haven’t seen it, you should since you like fairy tales.). I can however tell you there will be one as Disney is working on the movie “Prince Charming”. The story revolves around Prince Charming who is courted by so many women and he can’t settle or something along those lines: I heard about as one of the daddies at school works in the animated industry. I don’t how well the trope will be explored, but there is hope in the industry. After all, the entertainment industry can push forward only so many under-dog, at some point in time, people have to start to work on more innovative (or out of the box) stuff. So here comes dusty good old Prince Charming to the rescue! See… forever a trope :-P
Adolin does stand out by being one of the most discussed character ever since the release of WoR. I swear there was a time where people were being more willing to discuss him than Kaladin or any other main characters. Why? There are several reasons… Adolin talks to the readers who are inherently tired of the usual tropes and the typical brooding unassuming empowered hero type, he thus comes across as the “anti-Kaladin”. He also talks to readers who enjoy having their characters using up a built up set of skills as opposed to being granted magical powers on a whim: so Adolin’s bad-ass prowess onto the dueling ring earn him brownie points as it was all him. Him, him and just him, no magic. Adolin doesn’t have plot armor: in WoR, he basically was the only character readers were genuinely afraid would die as it seemed clear neither Kaladin nor Dalinar would bite the dust this early in the series. There are readers who love this. Also the readers who like the grimmer side of stories see in Adolin the potential of a Fall Arc which is a rather popular, not often explored, arc: some going as far as rooting for him to go evil just for the pleasure of reading it.
There are lot of reasons why Adolin speaks positively to so many readers, but it all summarizes to him being different and refreshing in a writing genre which has the tendency to over-play a few selected tropes.
I have once said I believed, based on interviews I have read/listened, Brandon is over-estimating the popularity of certain characters while under-estimating the popularity of others. Adolin, I suspect, has been under-estimated, probably because he isn’t a typical character for our dear author, so perhaps he has a harder time gauging how the readers are reacting to him. After all, doesn’t fantasy always present similar-like heroes? Even through Brandon’s own catalog of characters, Adolin is pretty much apart from everyone else. He is quite unique.
This being said, yes the industry has produced memorable characters, but who were they? Luke Skywalker? Under-dog, farm boy with a sword. Han Solo? Scoundrel with a heart of gold going into a love/hate relationship with Leia. Rey? Another under-dog and farm girl with a sword. Captain Kirk? Bad boy. Rand Al’Thor? Farm boy with a sword, chosen one, under-dog. Mat Cauthon? Scoundrel with a heart of gold, bad boy. Katniss? Under-dog.
I say similar themes are often explored and re-explored. It is undeniable the industry has capitalize in the under-dog combined with the nice scoundrel tropes, but it has yet to present a rich boy done right or the prince charming gets a reality check, in other words, the industry seems to prefer using up similar like tropes to fill in its major protagonists. Adolin Kholin is not something I have seen before nor is he something which ever had the chance to feature into his own story. It was why I yearned so much for Brandon to write a focus book on him. All the other characters he wishes to present to us follow the classic tropes for main protagonists (except perhaps Jasnah which seems rather unique as well), it was great to hope, for a while, one of them would break the mold. Sadly, it won’t happen, so I will knack at the little bits dropped here and there by the author and I will keep on making my own story, in my head.
This being said, as much as I love SA, I do not think it will ever bear the magnitude of LoTR. The world Tolkien created is more lively than Brandon’s complete with its lore and its own language. There also was a poesy to his writing still unsurpassed: there is something magic about those books. Brandon is a great writer, but he is too focused on pacing to truly give as much life to his world as Tolkien, Jordan and to a lesser extend Martin would. His strength is in delivering satisfying climaxes and for creating action-filled stories which creates a feeling of anticipation, but to create anything coming anywhere close to LoTR, you have to be willing to let the pace slow, you have to be willing to spend time with your supporting cast, you have to be willing to write an arc which ends in a dead end simply because it was a nice add-on, you have to be willing to write side arcs which may not pay off into the main narrative… In other words, you have to be willing to let the story grow beyond its intended scope which is exactly what Brandon intends to prevent with his structural plan. He has read other works and those I cite are exactly what he wants to avoid. He will keep the story focus onto the main narrative and for this, he has already established the list of main characters he needed: there is no place to add someone else. Therefore, in the end, I do not think SA will not amount to another LoTR. It will lack depth: there will be inklings of depth, but it won’t be exploit to its fullest (just like Adolin’s character). What will it amount to? I have no idea, perhaps something new, something different.
What will Adolin be by the end of SA? Your guess is as good as mine: he could steal the show or remain a rather superficial character. Right now, he is raw potential, but too many barriers need to fall down for him to reach its true potential. This being said, maybe he will grow enough to give other authors the idea to start playing with other tropes than the under-dog/bad boy/ultimate hero for their main protagonists.
Adolin is not perfect, perfect, but the idea of perfection is an integral part of his character.
@Gepato, The Picture of Dorian Grey was written by Oscar Wilde and is about a rich young man who has his portrait painted. He decides he looks so hot in the portrait that he makes a deal with the devil (I think?!) that means instead of the portrait remaining beautiful whilst he ages, the portrait will age and he will remain young and beautiful even when he reaches ninety and ought to be thinking about false teeth and hip replacements. Grey is a thoroughly unpleasant character who leaves a trail of broken hearts and dead bodies in his wake despite his good looks, and as I understand it, it was Wilde’s criticism the Victorian “Aesthetic” where good looking = good person. I don’t quite know how TV tropes got to that from Prince Charming, who is supposed to be bland but essentially harmless- I suppose it’s just about characters who tend to be judged by their surface appearance….
@34: TVTropes said the term “Prince Charming” was used in this Dorian Gray novel which is how it got popularized. It says Dorian Gray was a blond headed pretty boy which is stated as being the first character to be referred as Prince Charming in a novel. I didn’t read the whole articles, there were quite a lot of tropes used in this novel, according to TVTropes, but they do cite it as the cementing source of this particular trope.
I cannot say how accurate TVTropes are or not, but it makes sense to me this trope would originate from the late 1800s in about the same years which gave Swan Lake and the Grimm brothers. It seemed fitting.
TVTropes states this trope is hardly ever used which goes back to Sheilagh stating how she has a hard time finding it into the modern entertainment industry.
However, in the scope of the current conversation, here it is:
http://www.people.com/article/disney-making-live-action-prince-charming-film
It says in there it is a live action, so I dunno if it is the same movie the dad at school was working on. Hard to tell, but there seem to be an interest to give the leading role to different kind of characters. Formally minor and supporting character Prince Charming may finally get his time to shine.
This being said, I don’t think the trope is about anything in particular as it has never truly been used to define a well-rounded character before. I do think, of we were to give life to it, it would be about the appearance of perfection and its cost which what I read in Adolin, but it has never been done before.
I am also guilty of putting way too much stock into a mere supporting character: it is obvious he will always be a step below everyone else. Still, I’d be very curious to read what a story with Adolin as a main protagonist would sound like.
Keep in mind, the story of Cinderella goes back at least to 7 BC in Egypt.
The Prince Charming trope is a very old trope.
@36: Really??? I thought it originated from the Grimm brothers in the 1800s… The Disney Cinderella prince had to be the blandest of them all though former movie Ever After turned him into the Rebel Prince. It seems the only way this character can get interesting is if he rebels against his family… though come to think of it, it my happen with Adolin. He could become the Rebel Prince.
Yes, Cinderella is the oldest known fairy-tale, though obviously, the story varies quite a bit as well.
I have heard it speculated that it originally goes back to China, because of the fixation on beautiful feet. The oldest known version in China goes back to the Tang Dynasty, in the 800’s.
I don’t get why people are worried Adolin won’t have a major role in the series. His divine calling is dueling. Per Hoid, the only chance Roshar has is to “nominate” a champion to fight Odium in single combat. Am I the only one to notice that set-up?
@39: Because the author said Adolin would not have a major role… As for the champion potential story arc, it seems pointless to appoint some who is not a surgebinder. Besides, Kaladin is the superior fighter, so by all means it should be him providing they even go there.
@39, it doesn’t have to be a physical fight. We may see Honor’s champion face-off against Odium’s champion, but it won’t be a swordfight. It will be kind of like the Creator’s champion (Rand) against the Dark One’s champion (Ishamael).- if you are familiar with the Wheel of Time.
Perhaps, but then again Adolin is even less suited for this kind of fight. He isn’t the most mentally strong… I seriously do not see him as good choice for any of the “champion” potential story arcs. It strikes to me characters such as Dalinar/Kaladin are more appropriate for fighting skills (both are superior to Adolin whom is seriously out-classed as soon as he fights magical individuals) or Jasnah/Renarin for mental strength and wits.
Adolin just doesn’t have anything special going on. All he has is a certain talent at sticking a pointed object into living creatures, but his skills are useless against surgebinders/Gods/invested individuals. He isn’t particularly skilled with his mind, he is overly emotional and he struggles to control himself. They would need someone more stable, more stoic… Adolin is also easy to manipulate. He is too sensible, his emotions can be played against him too easily.
You would need someone with nothing to loose and Adolin will always have his family to loose, even if they throw him out.
@33 Gepeto, I don’t mean to be picking on Gepeto, but his analysis of the difference between Sanderson and other noted fantasy authors – particularly, Tolkien should not go unchallenged. Tolkien provided a detailed timeline for events in MiddleEarth – particularly, for events pertaining to his Lord of the Rings (LOTR) trilogy where it became a daily log (it’s a long appendix in the book). It is most reasonable to assume, that the timeline was drawn before the writing of the book. In other words, the events to be depicted were already in the author’s mind before being committed to pen. Sanderson’s modus operandi does not appear to be so elaborately structured. Moreover, he does divert the main narrative into sidelines which are the subject of his Interludes. Some, such as the Lift Interlude introduces a character who will, apparently, play an important role in the future. Other’s are not so destined such as the Interlude featuring the 2 Ardents. In fact, he deliberately included pieces that have the structure and function of short stories, as well as novellas (Eshonai) in the SA books to give it a more epic character.
I have barely read Jordan’s Wheel of Time series to have much of an opinion, but I have gathered that the long series deals primarily with Rand-al-Thor and his male and female companions. Sanderson’s focus to date on Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar is not so different. I have read more of Martin (I’m reading his third book of the Song of Fire and Ice series), but he is in a different league than the other authors. He appears to undercut the fantasy motif of good struggling and winning over evil, for the sake of depicting interesting, if morally challenged characters. He is also more inclined to the sensual in terms of sex and food than the others.
In any case, while it would be difficult for any author to achieve something in the fantasy genre equal to Tolkien’s LOTR, Sanderson may be as good a writer as anyone else in this genre. Nor would I assume that Gepeto’s favorite character, Adolin, is not destined for greatness in Roshar. After all, we don’t know who will or won’t survive the Desolation and who will rule the survivors. I must say that this waiting game may engender speculations, but it is not as satisfying as reading selections from the new book. Alice, can you input a plea to Brandon to feed the fans some more meat while we wait for his next book?
Just curious, but is anyone is discouraged from commenting with all the “wall of text” comments on here? I know I am :(
@43: Jordan followed a cast of several characters and while the core 6 were more or less steady through out the series, various characters rose up to the occasion. In the end, the number of developed characters far surpassed the 10 promised by Sanderson. So far, in SA, we have had 2 very well developed characters and a third one on the way. Where Sanderson and Jordan diverge in through the fact Sanderson has stated his series would have 10 main characters, these were the only characters who would get decent POV (if you look at his planning, page time diminishes extremely quickly once you aren’t one of the top three in a given book) time which implies those left can only hope for limited arc and potentially superficial character development (which is basically what you can expect from a tertiary character in any given story). In WoT, you could expect basically anyone to take up the front seat while in SA, we are only two books in and I know who will sit there and who will not. This is strange.
Brandon has made the choice to concentrate his minor world-building characters within the interludes such as to prevent cloaking the main narrative with additional side stories. He hopes this writing decision will prevent him from stalling his plot line with too many characters which is a problem many other authors such as Jordan and Martin have had (no writing method is perfect, they all have their pros and their cons). He plans to use those to include side novellas he finds interesting to add. It is a different process than other authors have used and it seems a good one if a bit compartmentalized.
Adolin however is a special case as he is a main narrative character and not an interlude one, he has too many POV to be a minor character, but not enough for real character development or for a true deep arc. In any other stories, I would say we were bond to read more of him, but in SA, the author has said it would not happen. So we are left with a popular character who doesn’t have enough page time to truly shine and take over his own arc, but has too much of it to be browse away as a minor one. It is a particular situation, one I have never encountered in another series a character such as him would generally keep on growing. This being said, he may end up in an “important position” within the story, but it won’t necessarily translate into a well developed arc or into great character development: there is only so much you can do with 4-5 chapters per book especially compared to the 20 Kaladin generally gets (I did not make a definite count, so my numbers may be off). For instances, Elhokar has an important position/role, but he isn’t a fleshed out, detailed character: he remains a very minor one, despite being the king. So Adolin is likely to turn out this way with the addition of a small arc of his own, but I doubt we are going to get into his head as we got to enter Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar.
No matter how I shuffle things around I am still puzzled as to why we even have Adolin in the story… If he can’t be a main character and if he is too big to be a supporting one, then what is he supposed to be? Either you are a minor side character or you are a main character, there is nothing in between.
Tolkien is a true master and from what I have gathered Brandon’s writing style is too different to accumulate into something similarly elaborate. Brandon does not put the emphasis on the same story aspects as Tolkien, so the end result is bound to be very different in the end, different not meaning worst, simply not the same kind of product. I am curious to see how the Cosmere will turn out, 20 years from now.
I personally think it is hard to compare Tolkien to anyone… He just wrote the classic of the classics: it is a stepping stone in itself. We will have to wait several more years before finding out how our friend Brandon passes the test of time.
I second the plea. A year and half without anything of substance to put our teeth on but a few scraps here and there is quite long.
@44: Please do not be intimated. You do not have to reply to the wall of text if you don’t feel inclined to.
Long time / first time.
Alice & nixon66 @22 – I suddenly realized that my mental picture of Jasnah is similar to post-transformation Delenn, minus the bone crest. How did I not see that before? Must be because … “I am become Grey.” :-)
Austin @44 – Dive right in! When I don’t have enough time to read everything, I scan through and only read the short posts – that could be you!
Something to ponder: What if the potent weapon that’s dangerous to deploy is [the sword Zahel used to have]? (Unsure how to handle spoilers here, so playing it safe.) I’d love to read what you all think of this speculation, though I agree that Gavilar’s black spere, Szeth, and the Honorblade(s) are probably stronger possibilities. When he wrote the Diagram, Mr. T. didn’t necessarily know about or understand what he was writing about, correct? So it could very well be something we haven’t seen yet in the first 2 books.
Austin @44 – Please step in anyway – some of us just don’t know how to say anything short! See the following for an example. :D
JDD @39 – It all depends on what you mean by “a major role.” Would you say Adolin has had a major role thus far? He will likely continue at about that level, at least for the near future.
Some people define “major role” in the Stormlight Archive as limited to the flashback characters, and we’ve been told that Adolin is not intended to be one of those ten. For my part, I consider Adolin a major character, even though he’s not a primary one. As a major secondary character, he is tied more closely to more plot sequences and more characters than anyone else; especially in WoR, he’s been the principal link between various primary characters for the bulk of the book. Whether and to what degree that will continue remains to be seen; for my money, Adolin’s role would have to be cut back a lot to remove him from “major” status.
In any case, Brandon clearly has something in mind for Adolin, given his last couple of scenes in WoR; we’re going to have to wait and find out what that is. Also, the question of choosing a champion is a Chekhov’s Shardblade; it has to be used sometime, and we don’t know when. Or who, or how. Speculation is always fun, and we should by all means proceed with that! Arguing about the semantics of major, minor, main, primary, secondary is… not so much fun, IMO.
@several – Let me tell you a little story, about a fan of a fantasy series who loved a theory too much. This theory demanded, and therefore the fan insisted, that a certain historical event A would have been a victory instead of a disaster, had one character C behaved in a different way at that historical time. Another reader pointed out that the author himself had said that the result of A would have been a far worse disaster had C behaved differently, and the whole (fantasy) world is lucky that C was too stubborn to do so. This particular fan had the gall to say, “Well, I think he was wrong.”
Aside from the folly of claiming that the author was “wrong” about the historical backdrop of a world which was solely the product of his imagination, the finale proved beyond all doubt that a) the author was right, because b) the culmination of the story depended entirely on the reason that A would have been a worse disaster had C behaved differently.
The moral of the story is, don’t be like that fan, claiming that the author has his own story messed up. It’s his story. He will tell it as he chooses. These are his characters. They have the backgrounds, personalities, experiences, and attitudes he gives them, your head-canon notwithstanding. Write your own mental fan-fic all you want, but don’t demand that the rest of us accept it as canon – and seriously, don’t expect Brandon to alter his work to suit your taste. If you dislike what he chooses to write, that’s your privilege, but do not say he did it “wrong.” At the very least, take the time to choose your words more carefully, because I’m running out of tolerance on this point.
@47 Wetlanderw, @45 Gepeto
Authors make mistakes all the time. They mess up their plots, get characters wrong, and do the wrong thing. If an author’s main argument for something is “because I said so”, then it’s pretty likely that they don’t have any better arguments available. I’m not actually sure whether we would be better off with Adolin as a main character, but I think we would be better off with arguments that don’t involve author infallibility.
I’m a big believer in suspending disbelief, permitting the Rule of Cool to override strict consistency, and allowing fictional universes to be a little flexible in the interests of telling a good story. But authors sometimes still write scenes that break the suspension of disbelief too obviously, clearly violate their own rules for no reason, and have characters do things that simply make no sense. Smart authors learn from their mistakes, while bad authors insist on their own infallibility in “their” universe. As soon as an author makes the decision to share their work with readers, they open themselves to all kinds of commentary and criticism, for better and for worse.
In The Bands of Mourning, Brandon Sanderson wrote a real romance between two characters that didn’t involve infatuation under stress or love at first sight. It was an extraordinary improvement over his earlier work, and a sign of his progress as a writer. That kind of development wouldn’t be possible if he insisted that it was his writing and that it couldn’t even improve or get better because it was his story and his characters. No good author can do everything their readers want from them. But every author who wants to be good needs to learn from valid criticism, rather than rejecting it out of hand.
@47: For the record, I did not say the author had to change the story to pander to my personal tastes (nor did I say he did anything wrong), I simply stated a fact which is a given character was not a major/main/primary character. Why do I insist on this point? Because the author himself told me so and while readers may have their independent perspective, I have to bow to the man: he certainly knows more than I who is a main character in his own story and who isn’t. Those he personally views as his major/main/primary character (and Brandon does not seem to personally make a distinction in between those appellations) are his flashback characters. These are the characters he has chosen to articulate his story around, these are the drivers of it. His words, not mine. Anyone else is either a tertiary character or whatever it is he calls those who falls below this level, minor I supposed. What does it mean for those? I have absolutely no idea and while character X seems to have a few things going on, those things may very well end up in key plot elements for character Y. In fact, considering who is a main character and who isn’t, it is safe to supposed it will likely play out this way, if not in totality, in part. Why? Because this is how it has been played out so far. Might be the author has different ideas for book 3, but I have no way to know that.
The major, minor, main, primary, cucumber discussion may be boring to some, but it helps some of us trying to figure what to expect going into the next book and when speculative plotting happens, yes I do personally think it is relevant to keep in mind the position of a given character. There are things a character not rated as a major/main/primary one is unlikely to do in the near future, for instances, being anyone’s champion or bonding a Dustbringer/Willshaper spren. Why? Because these are roles which appears to be reserved for a top-three character. Why? Because the series is constructed in a particular way which makes it so. Am I right? I have no idea, but unless I get distinctive words from the author it ain’t so, I will take it into consideration.
And while I am disappointed by certain choices our beloved author seem to have make, I never said he should change them. Why is it wrong to state I wish for certain elements to be further explored? Why is it I am badmouthing the author when I yearn for him to give more life to characters he created? At some point, he must have done something right to make me want to read it? Right? So why is it wrong? And where did I state my mental fanfiction was canon or that I expected anyone to think it was? Nobody has any idea what would be in it anyway. These aren’t thoughts I have shared.
What I said is perhaps someone else would pick up on a few ideas I personally liked (for being uncommon in fantasy, for being outside the standard box) and come up with another story featuring tropes I personally wish to read. Mind, none of this would have happening had Brandon not write it to begin with. He put the seed of an idea, maybe he’ll let it grow into a bush, but perhaps another author will pick on it and turn it into a tree.
I realize we are very different readers as there always is something I will critic: this is just who I am. I am sorry it comes across so antagonistically.
@46aggie1: I never even contemplated that the potent weapon could be that…my gut instinct is that Taravangian couldn’t even have known about it, but I don’t have anything to back that up. It’s referred to once in Zahel’s Interlude (and I don’t think he would have mentioned it to anyone, not happily anyways) and then we see it at the end, but who knows how many hands it might have been in between Nalan and Zahel. Possibly none, possibly a few.
Oh, as an aside, relevant to the weapon in question: a friend of mine is currently reading through the Stormlight Archive. He’s a good bit through The Way of Kings, but I was wondering if I should tell him to read Warbreaker first before jumping into Words of Radiance (he’s already read Mistborn so he likes Sanderson in general). Anyone have thoughts on if that makes the ending to Words of Radiance better or if I should let that be more of a surprise for when he eventually gets to Warbreaker?
Re: Criticizing an author for their narrative choices: There’s a difference between saying an author did something wrong because it didn’t suit your taste, and saying that an author did something wrong because it was objectively bad writing. It’s pointless for me to say that Adolin should have a bigger role because I would like it, but I could make a case for it if I could argue that the story would be hurt if Sanderson didn’t give him a significant arc. And of course there’s also a difference between expressing your opinion about a story, and saying what you think is objectively true about it. My subjective opinion is that Steelheart is a bit dull, because that’s what my experience of it was, but I accept that objectively the plotting is good and keeps many people on the edge of their seats. Anyways, I’m not making any judgments here about what Gepeto or anybody else is doing – just saying that these are important differences to keep in mind…
@46 aggie1: Some folks handle spoilers by making the text white – you can select some text in the comment editor box, click on the underlined A in the toolbar, and choose white. Then anybody who wants to read the spoiler has to purposefully highlight it.
@50 FenrirMoridin: I’ve seen lots of people recommend that one reads Warbreaker first, but I read WoR first and then had a perfectly fine surprise when I recognized those characters in Warbreaker. I think it may have been a little better to have read Warbreaker first, but reading WoR first certainly didn’t spoil the fun of the connection for me.
aggie1 @46 – Heh. Jasnah as Delenn (or would that be Delenn as Jasnah?)… That’s a good visualization, actually, and now I’m realizing it’s not far from my own mental image! Jasnah would be taller, though.
dptullos @48 – There’s a huge, enormous, gigantic, insurmountable difference between “the storytelling didn’t convince me” and “he was wrong about what happened in his imaginary world.”
His world, his story, his characters. The reader who dislikes the worldbuilding, the storytelling, and/or the characterizations should probably consider finding something else to read, but I don’t see that a reader ever has the right to claim that the author was wrong about what happened in his world. I have no problem with critiques of quality. I have no problem with people stating that they dislike what the author decided to do. I have no problem with a statement that a reader was unconvinced. I do have a problem with people thinking they have the authority to determine who ought to be critical to the story or, as in my earlier example, how the magic system works. Who is critical to the story? That depends on the story the author is telling, not the story some readers want him to tell. How does the magic system work? However the author says it does, not the way some reader thinks it should in order to fulfill her expectations.
(Incidentally, in my earlier example, the major problem was that the fan was absolutely convinced that she knew how the ultimate conflict was going to be resolved. Therefore, with anything that happened in the book, or anything the author said external to the book – if it didn’t fit with what she expected to happen, she was ready to declare that he’d written it wrong, or that he didn’t know what he was talking about. She was, of course, dead wrong about the conflict resolution he had in mind; her expectation blinded her to where the story was really going. The author had a complex scenario in mind, which required multiple events, characters, and objects to be coordinated with finesse; the fan’s expectation, by comparison, was simplistic, and far too obvious a solution. But she was so sure she was right that she was willing to make a fool of herself by insisting that the author was wrong.)
Oh. I love this chapter and have been away.
Good things coming via JordanCon.
Trust = Shallan trusting Navani to help. It grows from just Shallan with all the notes, to the whole scholarship team.
Moash’s eyes. It will be interesting to see how eyes are affected. Moash’s turn tan. He has a dead blade. Kaladin’s turn blue. He has a live blade, and blue is the color of the Windrunners. What happens to the others? But our sample size is currently too small to draw any conclusions.
I was like @1, felt the “potent weapon” was Szeth. Now I’m thinking the “potent weapon” is the destruction of society. The Diagram is pulling society apart to rebuild it and re-forge it into the system they want to see. Everything falling apart around you is going generate stress. Some people rise to fight. Some fall and stay down.
Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture.
Maybe this is the type of breaking one needs to undergo in order to bound. The winds knew Kaladin, so Syl could find him. The winds and other spren are going to see the people who rise up from their stress points.
I’m liking this theory more and more. So it doesn’t have to be a physical trauma, but trauma of the spirit. Darn I wish I’d had it this weekend. Of course any question touching on this also screams RAFO.
@22: Good job! Alice wondered if anyone was going to pick that up. :-D
@44: Just jump in with a one liner comment. The “wall of text” are more a reflection of passion or writing style. Or reading a ton of comments in a row before responding. There are days when it is better.
I didn’t read many this week since I’m in catch up mode.
@44: What Braid_Tug said above. Pick and choose what you want to read herein, but don’t be concerned about jumping in with a short (or long) comment on another topic.
I always took the potent weapon to be the Radiants, but y’all make very good arguments in other directions.
B5: didn’t miss an episode. Nifty spirituality about souls being recycled, but I’ve forgotten the vast majority of what happened.
Trying to avoid post-con depression. ;-)
I always liked B5 and tuned in when it ran on TV, but last year I have borrowed all the DVDs, watched them from the beginning to the end in English and transformed into an ardent fan, somewhat hockey acting and aged/modest to begin with production values nothwithstanding. So, I am with you fellow B5 admirers! Jasnah as Delenn indeed ;). Not seeing equivalents to my favorites Londo and G’Kar yet, though my predilection for them may be the reason why I am a bit more willing to give Amaram a benefit of doubt than most here, heh.
Back to WoR – I do think that the “weapon” from the Diagramm is Szeth and his Blade. Seeing him surgebind certainly put Jasnah on the right track, though she already began her own bonding process before that.
Hi all, just a quick self-celebratory first-time post now that I’ve finally caught up with a Tor reread! Still working on Malazan, SoIaF, and Leigh’s re-re-blogs though. Took longer than planned due to slight OCD around reading every single comment posted, even the 1000 odd ones from Wheel of Time!
Been reading the Stormlight Archive and the blog posts exclusively at the moment, and really enjoy the insights into the Cosmere you all find, exploring the world, its creatures, its spren, its magic, and its characters. So much to think about in there. Very surprised so many words have been said about Adolin throughout the posts. I’m a big fan of duels or blade-fighting descriptions in books, especially when they’re so good as to allow you to play them out in your head, and really picture it, and Sanderson and Jordan’s scenes nail them IMO. Adolin’s dueling skills are awesome, and seem very adaptable. Not so great the first time against a powered up opponent maybe!
He strives to do the best he can for his father and his brother, perhaps due to the mental weakness he might see in them. He has honour and respect. He has issues with relationships, but then pre-Shallan it doesn’t sound as though any of those relationships were with women who deserved him. Thats really all I get from him though.
I suppose its just a lack of backstory for him, which I guess may be filled in a little with the next book. Getting any kind of depth out of a book is awesome, but there are so many more things in the Cosmere than a romance and whether or not it will happen! Like the talking and non-talking spren, how they react to events, sometimes as if for the first time, like a child, and yet they are connected to something that has presumably lasted a long long time.
Either way, I’ll still read and enjoy these posts that you’ve all been feeding into my reread addiction these last 3 years.
So thanks!
Add me to the list of B5 fans. I’ve followed the Star Trek re-watches here on Tor.com, and every time that people start debating over which Star Trek series is the best, my answer is always “Babylon 5”. (Although sometimes I’m amazed I ever got into it, since the very first episode I saw was the one where the guy thinks he’s King Arthur—imagine that being your introduction to the world!)
(BTW, the non-snarky answer to the Star Trek question is DS9, because it’s the most similar to B5!)
I honestly don’t read many of the extra-long posts, despite being a frequent composer of them. Heh.
I’m still convinced that Szeth is the weapon. YMMV.
I’ve never really understood the issue with Adolin. I love him as a character – he just makes such a great foil for Kaladin! And I personally would define any character who gets as many POV’s in a book as Adolin as a “main character.” Do we really need to stick the characters in boxes to define them? And does the “main character” box necessarily have to be the exact same box as the “flashback character” box? That seems silly. As they say – haters’ gonna hate, and fictional characters gonna….characterize?
Lastly, I’d like to reiterate something I’ve said before: WoB aren’t necessarily canon. Sure, you can have a WoB that is (such as his clarification on Syl’s actions during Kaladin’s fall from the sabotaged bridge), but you can also have WoB that contradict each other – such as his earlier statement that Adolin would get a flashback book.
I think, in the end, you can probably classify WoB as being either 1. Statements on what has happened, and 2. Statements on what might happen in future books. Take the second for what it’s worth: an expectation that will probably happen. Just don’t be surprised if he ends up changing his mind.
@59: It is not us who put the characters into boxes, but the author himself. The author himself stated the “main character box” was the same as the “flashback character box”, which is something character interested readers have been debating over for the past two years. Now it has been settled.
Therefore, if the author tells us one character is a main and the other is not, I believe we have to take his word for it and lately, he hasn’t changed his mind much. His plan has been rather fixed for the past two years: it may still change, this is true, but I personally do not expect the characters organization to fluctuate much.
Sadly, not being a main character bears implication, if it doesn’t then the distinction is pointless however since the author insists on making it, it must mean something.
I think the title does refer to all the things you mentioned, but it also refers to Dalinar showing that he was worthy of Caladan’s trust, when he confronts Amaram. I think it also refers to the way Caladan broke trust with Syl, the way the Stormfather said he would, and that he is beginning to realize it and start down the path of repairing the relationship and trust. I think it refers to the trust (however weak) that the King put in Caladan to protect him, and more the trust Dalanar has in Caladan and his men. That trust is broken and will need to be repaired in a way that will nearly take Caladan’s life. I think trust is a really good title for this chapter, and it’s a major theme of the book, I’d argue.
@61- I read the last post just before this, so I forgot that the Dalinar/Kaladin trust issues were resolved in chapter 76, but I do think it has ramifications in this chapter.
@60 Gepedo- I think you may be adding your own definition of main and minor character. You’re taking Brandon’s words that main and flashback characters are the same, which is reasonable, but then it seems like you are presuming a negative connotation to minor character or major. I haven’t read enough of your posts to know why Adolin not being considered a “main character” is so bad. I think you are assuming, though, that the only categories are main and minor. However, I don’t know if that can apply in this series. The epic nature of it, and the multiplicity of character mean that we may need categories in between main and minor. In Adolin’s case, he has a significant number of POVs, which has to distinguish him from characters who only have a handful, usually during the climaxes of the books, or characters who are only in the interludes, or characters who have no POVS, but yet figure prominently in the plot.
I can understand wanting to have Adolin’s flashback scenes, and feeling upset that at one point it seemed we would get them and now we won’t. However, I think it’s incorrect to assume that Adolin has been damaged as a character, even more so that it is beyond repair. I like Adolin as a character, think he and Shallan fit well together, and that he had quite a strong bit of character development in WoR. I think his character will take an interesting turn after what he did in the final pages of the book. I guess I object to the idea that his character has somehow been ignored or diminished by not having any flashbacks (which is the assumption, but there is a good chance that his childhood will feature prominently in Dalinar’s flashbacks, though I recognize that it isn’t the same thing.) Perhaps the fact that I don’t feel a need for a book’s worth of Adolin flashbacks means that he seems like an open book to me, and that very well could be an argument in favor of a lack of characterization. However, I think that he made a turn in WoR, especially at the end of the book, trusting Kaladin, taking charge for his father, being prepared to step up to lead, and then taking revenge/protecting his family, all of which show a change in him from the beginning of the books, and aren’t all necessarily positive changes, or changes without negative consequences.