Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Dalinar’s forces finally joined battle against the red-eyed Parshendi at the center of the Shattered Plains. This week, Kaladin reaches a difficult decision back at the warcamp, while Dalinar and Adolin continue to press the battle.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 82: For Glory Lit
Point of View: Kaladin, Adolin, Dalinar, Kaladin
Setting: the warcamp palace, the center of the Shattered Plains
Symbology: Spears, Chanarach, Nalan
IN WHICH Kaladin hobbles toward the palace, hoping he’s not too late; at the king’s door, he finds two strangers in Bridge Four uniforms; he disables them and enters the king’s chambers, to find Elhokar unmoving on the couch.
… Adolin fights Parshendi by the light of Navani’s fabrials; they are trying to keep him distracted and out of the main battle; he considers the singers and their position against a rock formation; An Idea occurs.
…Dalinar shouts at the Stormfather; the Stormfather answers; the battle goes badly for Roion’s forces; Dalinar calls upon Navani and her fabrials for help; their desperation maneuver succeeds in providing an opening; he hopes it’s not too late.
…Kaladin rouses a drunken Elhokar and attempts to escape; one of the guards has recovered and stabs the king; Kaladin kills him and leads the king away, both bleeding profusely; Moash and Graves catch up with them.
Quote of the Week
“Fleet kept running,” Kaladin growled, getting back under Elhokar’s arm.
“What?”
“He couldn’t win, but he kept running. And when the storm caught him, it didn’t matter that he’d died, because he’d run for all he had.”
“Sure. All right.” The king sounded groggy, though Kaladin couldn’t tell if it was the alcohol or the blood loss.
“We all die in the end, you see,” Kaladin said. The two of them walked down the corridor, Kaladin leaning on his spear to keep them upright. “So I guess what truly matters is just how well you’ve run. And Elhokar, you’ve kept running since your father was killed, even if you screw up all the storming time.”
“Thank you?” the king said, drowsy.
You made it, Kaladin. You woke up. Thank you.
Off the Wall
There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction. Deviation. Kingship. We must discuss the nature of kingship.
—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 15
It’s almost like genius Taravangian was giving himself a hint about where to get updates, but if so… it make me even less inclined to trust the Diagram. I just can’t get past the feeling that any information gained through a splinter of Odium might be a bad thing.
One thing I need to note: I don’t (at this point) see Taravangian as “evil” per se; I do question the validity and benevolence of the Diagram.
Commentary
Dalinar, Navani, and Adolin, for all the vital work they’re doing in this chapter, are almost placeholders: they remind us that the battle is still happening out there somewhere, and things are pretty desperate. And for some reason Dalinar can now have waking conversations with the Stormfather.
Okay, that’s not quite all, but it really is the bulk of their sections. Adolin fights like a one-man army, but it becomes apparent that they’re mostly trying to keep him busy, out of the main battle. Being Adolin, once he figures out that they’re trying to divert him from the singers, he immediately sets to work to figure out how to get there. I love me some stubborn, I do.
Meanwhile, Dalinar has a few arguments with the Stormfather, but a messenger brings bad news from the front lines, and he has to get back to being a general. He turns to Navani for a miracle to rescue a large chunk of his army, and… she gives him two. Go, Navani! (See the Ars Mechanica section for more on this subject.)
Now, the main focus of the chapter: Kaladin. The previous chapter gave him the revelation he needed to finally understand what he needed to do about the “Patriots” and their plans. This chapter, he puts it into action, though the wisdom of the path he chooses is… questionable.
Kaladin stumbled into the entryway. No guards at the doors. Bad sign. Should he have raised the alarm? There weren’t any soldiers in camp to help, and if he’d come in force, Graves and his men would know something was wrong. Alone, Kaladin might be able to see the king. His best hope was to get Elhokar to safety quietly.
I can’t help thinking that this was… well, stupid. Obviously it makes for a more satisfying resolution to have Kaladin up here alone, but it really would have made more sense for him to either ask the ardents for help, or send a messenger to the Bridge Four barracks asking for the few left in camp to join him. On the other hand, this is Kaladin we’re talking about. Between his normal stubbornness, his pain, and the effect of his new understanding, he’s not thinking as clearly as could be wished.
Speaking of “satisfying resolutions” though,
But storm it… the king tried. He actually tried. The man was arrogant, perhaps incapable, but he tried. He was sincere.
While I freely acknowledge that sincerity and effort don’t somehow make a bad king into a good one, this piles weight on the side of “You don’t get to kill a man just because he isn’t what you think he should be.” Imperfection—even downright foolishness and incompetence—isn’t adequate justification for murder. Having faced that, he continues to work through the implications of his choice.
Which leads to the QOTW, and two further realizations. One, there is something in Elhokar for Kaladin to respect: perseverance. Even though he constantly failed to live up to his father’s standard of charisma and leadership, or his uncle’s standard of military skills and integrity… even while knowing he was failing to live up to the high bar set by his predecessors, he still kept trying to do better. That’s not nothing.
Two, there’s a little more he needs to grasp. He’s now figured out that disliking someone is not adequate reason to let them be murdered, but he knows there’s something more, something missing. He still doesn’t entirely know why he needs to help Elhokar in particular. Fortunately, he’s reached the point where he can act on what he has while trying to figure out the rest, and so when Moash comes to finish the job, Kaladin is actively trying to save the king’s life. That final recognition will have to wait for next week, but he’s only a hair away from everything slipping into place.
Stormwatch
Day Zero continues.
Sprenspotting
One has to assume that the connection Dalinar has with the Stormfather really is his impending Bondsmith-hood; he can now hear the Stormfather while awake and functioning, even though no one else can.
“I am the one left behind,” the voice said. It wasn’t exactly as he’d heard it in the visions; this voice had a depth to it. A density. “I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I… I fled. To continue as I always have. The piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel.”
While I keep getting mad at him for being so unhelpful, this does rather evoke pity.
Question: is his use of the term “sliver” deliberate and correct? If so, that means he was “a human intelligence who has held all or a very large portion of the power of a Shard and has since released it.” (He doesn’t appear to have entirely released it, but since the Shard has been splintered, maybe that doesn’t matter.) But if he’s now a Sliver, who was he before? Jezrien? Ishar? Someone else?
(By the way, has Brandon confirmed any Herald identities in the books yet?)
It’s also worth noting that Adolin remarks on the absence of the Thrill during this battle. Based on Taravangian’s information, this may be an indication that Nergaoul (presumably the Unmade responsible for the Thrill) has left the Shattered Plains for more interesting conflicts. I don’t recall all the theories floated during the TWOK reread regarding the origin of the Thrill, but according to Taravangian’s Interlude, it is attributable to “an ancient, evil spren.” This does not sound like a positive enhancement.
Ars Mechanica
This chapter sure was Navani’s turn to shine.
Fortunately, the darkness had been pushed back somewhat, as Navani had sent fabrials to bathe the battlefield in an extraordinarily even white light.
They have to be burning through Stormlight at a ferocious pace, but it’s better than fighting in the dark, I expect.
With Roion’s forces in deep trouble, Dalinar demands a miracle from Navani, and she produces one:
He was too distant to see her glare, but he felt it. Fortunately, she waved workers away from her current tarp and began shouting orders to her engineers. The women ran up to the chasm, where a line of rocks was arrayed. They were attached to ropes, Dalinar thought, though he wasn’t sure how this process worked. Navani shouted instructions. …
The engineers backed up at a barked order from Navani, and the workers shoved the line of some forty rocks into the chasm. As the rocks fell, tarps jumped fifty feet into the air, pulled at the front corners and centers. In an instant, a long line of improvised pavilions flanked the chasm.
I love that this is exactly the fabrial we saw her working on way back in Chapter 35, but in a much more practical application—not to mention less energy-intensive—as she raises a bunch of rain shelters, rather than a fighting tower. But this is merely the set-up for the third critical fabrial: the dehumidifier.
“We really should have had more time to test this,” she warned to Dalinar, folding her arms. “Attractors are new inventions. I’m still half afraid this thing will suck the blood out of anyone who touches it.”
It didn’t. Instead, water quickly started to pool around the thing. Storms, it worked! The fabrial was pulling moisture from the air. Roion’s archers removed bowstrings from protected pockets, bending bows and stringing them at the orders of their lieutenants.
Honestly, here in the wetlands there are times I’d sure like to have a dehumidifier that actually worked this quickly and effectively!
Heraldic Symbolism
Chana: Brave, Obedient, Guard
Nalan: Just, Confident, Judge
I think those are both scattered throughout the chapter, but I would suggest that both are primarily reflecting Kaladin’s arc. Chana is his choice to protect Elhokar, to guard him against the Shardbearing assassins no matter how hopeless it looks. Nalan, for all that he’s currently a mess, still represents justice—and Kaladin has finally realized that “I think you’re a bad king” doesn’t justify murder.
Shipping Wars
Okay, this isn’t really part of the wars, but this little line looks both forward and back:
What had Shallan said about these inner plateaus? And the rock formations on them?
Looking back, this reflects the conversation just before the attempted assassination back in Chapter 68—the last conversation Adolin had with Shallan before the bridge collapsed and dropped her into the chasms. Looking forward… Well, we’ll get there soon. I’ll leave it for next week.
Just Sayin’
I think there must have been a good one in here somewhere, but I can’t find it now. Y’all will have to put it in the comments.
That’s it for now; next week, we’ll continue the two battles, as rocks are slain and arguments are… argued.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She is, unfortunately, fresh out of clever quips and words of wisdom.
Nothing like the middle of a war to get the inventive process flowing. RL is full of such examples. For example, the US developing the hydrogen bomb as a super weapon.
If I were rescuing somebody who I did not like and did not know very well, I am not sure I would insult him while I was rescuing the person. Once again, Kaladin is speaking without thinking first.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
“His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself.” What sort of manifestations? Is this referring to the death rattles or to a more permanent manifestation – something that sticks around causing who knows what kind of Odium-havoc
Kaladin’s comment to Elhokar: “Even if you screw up all the storming time.”, totally cracked me up! Who else storming screws up all the time!? Kaladin, of course! Pot, meet kettle!
@1
What does RL mean?
Shipping:
I loved this small moment. It’s such a moment of realness. Yes, they love each other, but don’t push too hard at this moment of stress. An inventor at this moment is going to kill you with a glare for pushing the issues.
Just sayin’:
Perel: “Treading water, Sir.”
Adolin: “I have no idea what that means.”
We know it, since it’s an Earth saying. I thought it was a fun bit of world building that Adolin did not. It means he doesn’t know how to swim, and that pools are not common in his area.
I looked Perel up on the Coppermind. All it says is he is a field commander. So I don’t know where he is from. But wherever it is, swimming is common there.
Good: QotW
I have to wonder at the hissy fit Elhokar would have if he was sober.
Most kings don’t like to hear that type of feedback.
Brandon uses sliver and shard with too much precision for that to be anything except a clue to the readers. If it is a red herring – he’s just waiting to hear the cries of lament from his legions of fans.
This chapter. It’s like the last breath we can take before everything really goes crazy. I can’t wait until next week!
@3: RL – shorthand for Real Life.
@3 – Real Life
@2 – Oh, ain’t that just the truth!
Pretty sure Nalan and Taln are confirmed. heh
RL means “Real Life”
@@@@@ 3 RL means Real Life
Speaking of slivers, didn’t Syl say that she was “a sliver of god” at some point? While slivers we have seen in Mistborn books were all former human vessels of shardic power, nothing says that fragments of shardic power that have developed intelligence can’t be slivers without human component. I really don’t see any of ex-Heralds being part of the Stormfather, because didn’t they break their ties to Honor long before his death? In fact, I have always thought that breaking of the Pact must have weakened Honor and ultimately contributed to Odium’s ability to murder him.
“But no, this is a distraction. Deviation.”
Is geniusT aknowledging the risks and drawbacks of listening to splinter of Odium here and pointing out that it is a bad idea? While the less-than-geniusT was unable to dechiffer the true meaning and is doing exactly the thing that he had tried to warn himself against?
As to Adolin noting the absence of Thrill – didn’t Dalinar also lose it as his bond evolved? And isn’t there a theory that Adolin is unknowingly engaged in the process of reviving his Blade? Even if not, he has certainly whole-heartedly embraced Dalinar’s values in WoR, which may also have reduced his susceptibility. Only if we had confirmation of Thrill-weakening from other Alethi, would it indicate an Unmade moving away.
I also love Navani’s contribution, though as always sophisticated fabrials make me wonder why they aren’t more widely used as technical advances were used iRL – i.e. as weapons and means of production. Why do they still use spearmen et al.?
If war is men’s business and science is women’s business, that might explain why the (women) scientists don’t invent weapons.
Making fabrial weapons is probably cost prohibitive. They require in addition to stormlight, a power source that depletes over time and is troublesome to charge, also require large cut gems. It would be like making a sword directly out of $100 bills. We right now have problems of people ripping open important components for the copper, imagine handing some foot soldiers a fabrial.
Aside from that they’re made from literal cut gemstones, these folks have the embodiment of deific hatred spurring their passions and encouraging open warfare. War is a great spur to technologic progress in the short term, but constant warfare grinds down your resources. Plus, earth(well, Roshar)-scouring hurricanes being a weekly thing doesn’t help.
Spears and swords and bows were the bread and butter for warfare on earth for thousands of years. That this post-Desolation era managed to rebuild and develop their own investiture-based technology is actually moving at a good pace, developmentally.
In a real way, the Shattered Plains war probably spurred a huge amount of development with the discovery of the gemhearts.
And the Callings.
It’s many people’s religious Calling to become the best fighter possible to help heaven reclaim the Halls.
You can’t take a fabrial to heaven.
So they have a religious reason to keep war a personal fight. Not a remote thing of machines.
I could definitely be remembering this wrong, but aren’t there two kinds of slivers? Capital S Slivers like the Final Emperor Rashek, and lowercase s slivers like the Seons from Elantris and the Returned from Warbreaker? I have always thought the spren were Roshar’s version of Seons.
Just started getting into Sanderson books and I am hooked. Also really enjoy reading and learning from this site.
@@.-@ According to WoB
(paraphrased) The stormfather is a cognitive shadow, but he doesn’t know the correct terminology. Terms such as splinter and Sliver don’t really apply to him.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1143
Was there anybody who put down the book during these last few chapters? I don’t think it’s possible.
Moderators – I know the FB group is different, but the posts is not showing up on Face Book currently
(3:40 pm on 5/26/16)
Self flagging.
Thank you.
@15 – nope. I’ve reread this section several times while getting ready for the weekly posts. :-D
@@@@@ 15 & 16: I’ve actually lost count of the times I’ve “stormed” through the entire book while rereading for these posts.
I like how Kaladin calls the king by his first name here. Then a few paragraphs later he calls him “Your Majesty”. I’m excited by the fact this may indicate a future friendship between our two screw-ups. Elhokar’s visit to Kaladin with all his defenses down and Kaladin’s disrespectful response may have begun to forge a bond, especially if Kaladin’s placement of the king with the Herdazian contingent turns out to have been a positive influence.
I will admit that I re-read Kaladin’s arc through several more chapters last night.
RestlessSpirit @2
Heh.
@Braid_Tug
Nice job with Just Sayin’
SunDriedRainbow @13
(The Aons inside) Seons are Splinters (of Devotion), not Slivers. Had me confused for a long time too. Seems there are at least 4 high-level manifestations of Cosmere godpower in the physical realm:
–Slivers (people who have held and released a Shard)
–Splinters (invested inanimate objects)
–Cognitive Shadows (vestigial pieces of a deceased Vessel/Shardholder, see also Mistborn: Secret Histories)
–Condensed Essence (like atium and lerasium)
–Direct intervention???
15. Austin
Yes, I put it down a lot. I needed to pace away the book anxiety.
Nice post, Alice. Thanks.
Navani and her fabrials to help save the day! Glad they got attention; I think Navani and her continued development of fabrial science will play a large role in the Stormlight Archives.
Adolin is all kinds of stubborn, which is rather fortunate for our heroes.
Kaladin does not always think things through before he acts, no disagreement there. But (aside from initially going along with a planned regicide) his instinct to help is usually pretty solid.
Good observation about Elhokar and his sense of perseverance. It looks like each Kholin has a bit of the stubbornness to them.
@@.-@ – I liked your “Just Sayin” selection; I’m pretty sure I cracked up a bit the first time I read it.
@8 – I have also suspected that the breaking of the Oathpact made Honor very susceptible to being splintered.
@8-10 re: fabrial weapons – It appears that Roshar is slowly developing that type of technology. The half-shards are a great example. Also, Navani mentions how scholars are constantly trying to figure out how Shardblades work so they can create new ones. But these types of inventions are still in the early stages; I anticipate an explosion of fabrial development in the next few books.
@18 – I can see how Elhokar and Kaladin could develop a closer relationship after the events of the end of WoR. Elhokar could use people he trusts who aren’t afraid to be honest with him. That is, if Elhokar continues to develop into a good king, and I hope that he does.
Even if he was thinking more clearly, Kaladin would have acted on his own I think. For one reason: Moash. Kaladin hasn’t given up on Moash here, and when they eventually meet he tries his best not just to protect Elkohar but to explain to Moash why this is the right thing. It’d be best for Moash if Kaladin had changed Moash’s mind and resolved the whole thing without involving other people.
Which admittedly, is stupidly optimistic considering how much baggage Moash has…but what friend wouldn’t hope that they could pull their friend back from making a horrible mistake, especially after finding a new perspective on it?
@@.-@: Really solid comment, like your “Just Sayin'” especially, don’t think I’ve ever caught this when reading this, probably too focused on the Kaladin stuff.
@15: I also end up rereading this last chunk every time, even if I’m just trying to read only a small portion. Avalanches are hard to avoid in their entirety it seems. And Words of Radiance definitely has one of the hardest ones to put down in the Sanderson catalog.
@20: Me too.
Perhaps on Taravangian’s Diagram day he was Under the influence of Odium?
Wait, wait, wait… Taravangian got his Diagram from Odium?! Did I miss something or is this just a theory?!
I love it when Navani glares at Dalinar… Their relationship = happy me =).
@18 Woah. I had never even considered they might become friends haha. Honestly, I never thought that might happen, but now, hmm, all the possibilities!
Finally, Kaladin is waking up. One of my favorite parts is in the next chapter, can’t wait to read it with you guys!
@@.-@: Can you explain how the comment means Adolin doesn’t know how to swim? I fail to see the link, but you aren’t the first person to bring this forward. What does not knowing the term “treading water” implies his lack of swimming abilities?
As for the Thrill, I would argue Adolin has been progressively rejecting it since the beginning of WoR. Initially, he succumbs to it, he then fights it down when meeting Eshonai and in a later duel, he refuses to submit to the Thrill because he wanted to keep his head clear. In the end, he just can’t summon it anymore. It is gone and he feels tired.
@25: Re – “treading water.”
When you learn to swim, the first things you learn about is floating, sinking, and a “doggy paddle”. The doggy paddle will help you stay afloat and can help you move in the water. But it is not a very effective way to swim. Often it is more of a “treading water” type of movement. If someone knows anything about swimming, they would know what treading water means or implies. You are above water, but not going anywhere.
For Adolin to say – “I have no idea what that means.” = not being familiar with the motions and sensation of swimming.
He can know that swimming exists – I’m sure he’s seen sailors and such. But still not know how to swim or the terms around it.
Not that all sailors know how to swim. It was very common centuries ago for sailors to NOT know how to swim, despite being surrounded by water all the time.
Roshar doesn’t have dogs and I don’t know if ax-hounds can swim or not. So I wonder what the children call their first swimming motions. :-D
I’ve had great difficulty in accessing the comment section in recent weeks (or is it months). If I get access at all, it takes several attempts whether using Microsoft’ IE or Google’s Chrome browsers on different PCs. Even when I get access and formulate a longish comment, the communication speed ultimately slows markedly so that I can only input letters at a time and wait to see them displayed. I’m almost ready to give up on the process. If the level of activity on the Tor website is the issue, then they need to invest in increasing their internet capacity. Have others experienced such difficulty?
@27: I’ve flagged your comment for the mods.
Indeed, the site has been acting strangely. It was really bad for a few months after the redesign.
Then it got better.
These last 2 weeks it has been acting up again. I’m often able to get the comments to load faster on my cell phone than on my desktop. It takes forever it feels for the comments to load, or for the comment box to show up.
On the plus side the “My Conversations” tab is back on our personal accounts. So you can tell if someone new has posted. When that function went away – many people complained. Having it back is a great feature. But that means they are working on the site.
Fingers crossed it gets better again soon.
@27 & 28
As echoed by recent comments in the FB group. Some commenters there suggested Chrome is a better browser to use for this site, and Firefox is less compatible. I don’t see it that way, especially in view of STBLST’s comment above. I believe I have also had problems with IE, but can’t be 100% certain without a side-by-side test. It seems like a straightforward traffic/throughput issue to me. I’m not an expert, though.
Shifting gears: Any thoughts on the relevance of the title for this chapter? I suppose “lit” could refer to Navani’s fabrials lighting the way for an Alethi push to the central plateau and thence to Urithiru (“glory”), but that seems a bit thin in view of the other fabrials unveiled in this chapter.
Edited to correct stupid typo.
@26: Thanks for the explanation, though on has to wonder what is the relevance of hinting to us, the readers, the fact Adolin doesn’t know how to swim. It seems like the kind of off-hand comment which may come back to be relevant a few more chapters down the road.
@25 The assumption is that anyone who has been swimming will be familiar with the concept of “treading water”. Since Adolin is not, it is unlikely that he has ever been swimming.
In regards to the Thrill (peeking ahead a chapter):
So perhaps it’s not the source of the Thrill that has moved, but something about Adolin that has changed. This certainly seems consistent with what happened with Dalinar.
This connection seems very much like the connection between Kaladin and Syl. When his actions don’t meet her requirements, he loses his connection with her and the associated powers. Likewise, when Dalinar and Adolin begin to fight for something other than personal glory and personal victory, they lose their connection to the Unmade which granted them the Thrill.
Ah, I love this part of Kaladin’s ending. Looking at it this time, it struck me that in a way, Kaladin is actually trying to emulate Elhokar here. He thinks that Elhokar is trying to be a good king, even if he doesn’t succeed, and Kaladin wants to do the same – try to do the right thing and save Elhokar even though he runs a large chance of failing.
Re: Sliver vs. Splinter: The Coppermind has some good explanations. This WoB is probably the best single explanation.
Splinters include spren and Seons who are pieces of a Shard’s power; Slivers are people like Vin and the Lord Ruler who held a Shard’s power at one point.
@8 Isilel: Yeah, I also wondered if Adolin’s noticing the absence of the Thrill was foreshadowing for his becoming a Radiant. But then, it could also be red herring foreshadowing. Lack of the Thrill was one significant clue to Dalinar’s becoming a Radiant, so if Sanderson reuses the same clue, I think there’s a fair chance that he’s just trying to mislead us. At any rate, we do see Eshonai feeling the Thrill, though maybe that’s just related to stormform and doesn’t mean that Nergaoul is still around.
@15 Austin: Well, I’ve managed to just read each chapter individually as it comes up on this reread…but when I’m actually reading through the whole book, then yes, I have to “storm” through all the ending chapters at once (thanks RestlessSpirit, that’s the perfect word for it). It’s amazing how long Sanderson keeps up the tension. It gets to be physically tiring for me by the end, my heart has been beating hard for so long.
@27 STBLST: If you’re having issues typing comments into the text box, perhaps you could try what I do normally and just compose the comment in a text editor, then paste it in once you’re ready to post it? (I do this just so I can save the comment I’m working on easily.)
BTW, I’m using Firefox and I haven’t had any problems recently. I’m betting that it’s a bandwidth issue – that could explain the weird variety of site problems, and why I don’t have many issues while I’m using the site during hours with lighter traffic.
@29 Ways: I think that the title is meant to refer to the use of the phrase in the Fleet story, which Kaladin references during the chapter. “For glory lit, and life alive, for goals unreached and aims to strive. All men must try, the wind did see. It is the test, it is the dream.” (ch 59) Perhaps that could fit with Dalinar’s bits on the Shattered Plains as well as Kaladin’s parts – Dalinar puts everything he can into this battle, even though he knows it may be impossible for him to stop the Voidbringers.
If stormspren and Unmade are both Odium spren it makes sense that Eshonai seems to act as if she feels the Thrill while she is bonded to a stormspren.
I repeatedly had no connection to the tor.com server, usually in the morning German time when it is night in America, so the traffic shouldn’t be a problem. A server in Frankfurt often gives an error message that says my browser and the server in Frankfurt work but the tor.com server doesn’t.
Fascinating discussion on Splinters and Slivers of power. A question just occurred to me. Spoilers below:
Does Vasher have access to all his powers when on Roshar? Can he use the Colors of Roshar to fuel the power of command or does that only work on his home world? Could he take the Breath of people from Roshar?
Can a Mistborn use the metal of Roshar or is there some power that is only in the metals of the Mistborn world? Could a Mistborn bring some metal along and use the power on Roshar?
On Elantris, the Ruin power definitely seemed location based. The further from Elantris the less powerful the effect.
End Spoilers.
Re: The Thrill is Gone
I honestly prefer the explanations upthread, but it has also been suggested that Nergaoul either has a limited range and is moving away from the Shattered Plains or that there are periods of inactivity. The new variable of Eshonai feeling the Thrill only muddies the situation.
Sheesania @32
We are on the same page about several topics this week.
You hit the nail on it’s proverbial head with your comment about the chapter title. Slipped right by me.
adjbaker @34
Allomancers can definitely use metals originating on any planet, provided the purity and alloy composition are correct.
It’s generally assumed Hoid burned some metal on Roshar, which implies that Vasher’s investiture would work elsewhere in the Cosmere. The latter may have been confirmed somewhere also, but I don’t recall a reference off hand.
Re: the Thrill: perhaps in the past the Unmade favored the humans because their victories over the Listeners would drive them to Stormform. Now, however, the Stormforms are favored by Odium.
@34 Spoilers
Edit: Never mind I don’t know. Nightblood can still rip Investiture away from people. I thought the colors had to come from Nalthis because of Connection, but actually I don’t know.
There has been a WoB at a recent signing with r espect to Dalinar losing the Thrill. If my memory serves me right, it explains how Dalinar losing the Thrill was not a consequence of his Nahel bond, but there was a link. I think the word Brandon used was co-dependent. I am however incapable of locating the WoB again, so huh it is worth what it is worth. I may not be remembering it right, but my impressions were losing the Thrill isn’t necessarily linked to developing a Nahel bond, but the two often go pair in pair.
As for the chapter at hand, I think all theories have merit. It could be Nergaoul is simply moving away and it could be Eshonai can feel the Thrill via her stormform. However, if this were the case, then how come Adolin is the only soldier being affected by the loss of the Thrill? If the fact he feels its absence merely is a symptom of Nergaoul having moved away, then it means all soldiers are in the same predicament. So, if this were the case, then why aren’t there soldiers being incapacitated by it? The way the story is told, it is only Adolin who looses it: nobody else is seen having trouble fighting, dropping his weapon or throwing-up in between rock-buds… I mean, if the explanation merely is “the Thrill is gone”, then it is gone, for everyone, every soldier which means the attack wouldn’t have run this smoothly, soldiers would have had trouble going on with the butchery. It strikes to me as impossible all soldiers wouldn’t have trouble with the absence of the Thrill. If all lost it, then chaos would have ensure onto the battlefield, together with soldiers running away screaming: not all would have been able to go on. If not, then the average fighting capacity would have lessen: it would have been observed if the Thrill had simply moved away.
I am thus left to believe Adolin and only Adolin lost the Thrill.
I don’t think the soldiers would be incapacitated by the loss of the Thrill. The Thrill is just a plus to their motivation to fight.
Why wouldn’t they be incapacitated? Both Dalinar and Adolin were, to different levels, but they were. It is safe to assume everyone would be affected to various levels: some may go through with it without much impact, but I cannot believe over the several thousand of men Adolin has, he is the only one who drops his Blade shaking and being incapable to keep on fighting.
@24: I had never considered friendship for these two either prior to this particular chapter re-read. Something about the familiarity with which Kaladin treats Elhokar, and not necessarily disrespectfully – not for Kaladin at least <grin>. Kaladin is in place as a Kholin bodyguard so maybe Elhokar will ask him again to help. Elhokar’s eating a lot of humble pie these last few chapters. Puts a person in a different frame of mind, or one can hope.
Sheesania, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of this week’s chapter title. Nice! Like Ways, it had slipped right by me as well.
It’s not relevant but God I love the Fleet story. It’s the best part of the book for me.
Y’all must not see the cut text… This week I actually quoted from a different chapter so you’d have the chapter title reference all handy. My bad, though, that I forgot to mention it in the post.
Kaladin finally figured out what it means, and why it matters.
@several – There’s no evidence that losing the Thrill incapacitated anyone, ever. In most cases, the Thrill rises after they’ve started fighting, and fighting well, so it’s clear they can fight without it. In the cases where Dalinar and Adolin lose the Thrill, it’s generally after they’ve become nauseated or revolted by the killing, whereupon they shove away the Thrill. So I’d strongly suggest that the connection between the Nahel bond and the Thrill is that as the bond develops, the person becomes disgusted with the actions that the Thrill supports, and therefore becomes less willing to accept it when it starts to rise, and ultimately is simply less susceptible to it. Refusing – or being unable – to embrace the Thrill doesn’t, however, make them unable to fight effectively.
Also: Where does anyone start throwing up between the rockbuds?
So I was reading the Wheel of Time, and it was great, and then I finished. I was actually looking for an R. A. Salvatore book, when, right next to it, I saw a huge book called The Way of Kings, and I read these books and all I could think about as Kaladin ran around in the king’s palace on top of the mountain was Rand al’Thor sitting on top of Dragonmount, coming to similar conclusions.
@31 jon80: Oo. That is a very interesting idea about a similarity between the bond to a Radiant-spren and the bond to an Unmade creating the Thrill…I wonder if those apparent similarities are just because Radiant-spren and the Unmade are both spren, the same kind of Cognitive entity, or if there’s a deeper connection.
@42 Wetlandernw: I saw the cut text, actually, and that made me go poke around for where it had come from. I’ve been trying to pay attention to chapter titles ever since somebody on this reread pointed out the connection between the chapter “True Glory” and a Death Rattle back in TWoK – I don’t want to miss cool stuff like that!
@37 Gepeto: I searched on Theoryland and Twitter for anything containing “Dalinar”, “Thrill”, “bond”, or any spelling of “codependent”, and I can’t find anything…If you ever do locate the WoB, I’d be interested to see it.
@34
Hoid definitely mentions at one point that having perfect pitch makes things easier, so I’d say it’s certain that at least some of Vasher’s powers would have transferred as well. I suppose they could be reduced, but i don’t see any reason to believe that would be the case.
@43: Ah well nobody, but I figured if the Thrill is the only reason why soldiers are able to push through butcheries without having any issues, then its complete absence (due to Nergaoul having moved) would have incapacitated several of them. Since both Dalinar and Adolin mentioned feeling nauseous, I figured, over the several thousand of soldiers fighting with Adolin, there would be a few who would feel more than just nauseous, hence my imagery. I more or less imagined a significant percentage of the whole army struggling to fight, feeling sick with a non-negligible percentage actually being sick.
Back in WoK, when Dalinar fights without the Thrill, he has a hard time fighting right. I do not remember his exact words, so please forgive my memory, but didn’t he say it was dangerous because his reflexes were not as good, because he hesitated and he, overall, just didn’t fight as well as he was supposed to? Didn’t also end up in a bad spot because of the absence of the Thrill, a bad spot Adolin had to fight through a whole army to get him out of? Dalinar did state he was not capable of fighting effectively without the Thrill, so if Dalinar of all people can’t fight effectively without it, it is fair to assume a great bunch of soldiers would suffer the same predicament. In the case of Adolin, once he acknowledges he is a monster, he just can’t fight anymore. It isn’t just he fights less well: he can’t fight. He drops the Blade.
Also, Dalinar wasn’t completely Thrill-less: the Thrill rises in him, then it disappears, then it rises again, then it disappears again. It was only when he felt justified to fight he managed to get a hold of himself.
In this chapter, Adolin just never feels the Thrill: he does not even realize it until his men suggested he might want to try to climb the rock formation. He wonders why it was he didn’t wanted to try to do the stupid foolish thing: then he notes the Thrill is not there. He blames it on being perhaps too tired to feel it.
We have seen Adolin fight down the Thrill at two instances in WoR, but in the ending, he never get to fight it: it is just not there for him. He wants it, but he can’t have it. Adolin doesn’t lose the Thrill because he starts being horrified, he starts to feel terrible, then he notes how the Thrill is not there… Unless I am getting it seriously wrong, the sequence of events, in both Dalinar and Adolin, is not them being revolted by the killing, then they lose the Thrill. It is more them losing the Thrill and then suddenly starting to feel terrible over the killing they are doing. Back in WoK, Dalinar with the Thrill was happily chopping Parshendi, then the Thrill disappears and then he is horrified at the warfare. It was not the reverse. Please someone correct me if I someone got the sequence wrong, but I re-read this bout in WoK recently: this is truly how I recall it.
Hence, if I am correct, then Nergaoul moving away would have incapacitated at least some men, not all of them, granted, but surely enough for Adolin to notice the battle was not going as anticipated. I thus do not think the fact Adolin can’t feel the Thrill is linked to Nergaoul having moved away. I certainly think what is happening here is happening to Adolin and only him, whatever it may imply for his future, I certainly think it affects only him.
It is also consistent with the character’s progression with respect to the Thrill. He talks about it while dueling, about shushing it away to keep his head clear.
@45: It isn’t on Theoryland, it is in one of those word document on the 17th Shard or into a post somewhere… I should have saved it: practically impossible to find it again.
Edit: FOUND IT. *Does the happy dance*
Q: Is the reason Dalinar rejects the Thrill because he has a connection to the Stormfather through his visions?
A: The answer is yes, this is part – this is in play. Though you could say the reason he has a connection to the Stormfather also influences the reason he rejects the Thrill, so it may be more correlation than causation, but there’s at least a little causation as well.
OK I recalled the bout about the correlation and not the causation. Brandon says him being a proto-Radiant does influence his Thrill rejection experience, but it didn’t cause it. Just a little bit. It isn’t all so clear anymore. Anyone have a good interpretation for it?
@47 Gepeto: Okay, wow, I transcribed that myself and knew that signing report was the only one that hadn’t made it into Theoryland, and somehow I didn’t remember it and didn’t even think to look there. >.< Sorry.
Anyways, from that WoB it sounds like there are at least two reasons involved in why Dalinar rejects the Thrill: 1) his connection to the Stormfather; 2) the underlying reason why he’s connected to the Stormfather, whatever it is. So applying this to Adolin, if we assume that he’s actually rejecting the Thrill and its lack isn’t just due to Nergaoul’s movement…then the two reasons we know of that he could be rejecting the Thrill are because 1) he has a connection to a Radiant-spren; and/or 2) there is something going on with him that could lead to a connection to a Radiant-spren. But who knows, there could very well be other reasons why somebody might reject the Thrill that don’t have to do with a Nahel bond.
@47 – I just gave you a good interpretation for it. As Dalinar becomes more connected to the Stormfather, he becomes revolted by the senseless killing. Because he can no longer approve it, he therefore rejects the Thrill which delights in destruction.
@48: Ah I saw your name in there. I agree losing the Thrill may or may not be an indication of some Nahel bond activity. I don’t personally believe Adolin’s experience has to do with Nergaoul moving away, as I tried to explain, but I do not consider it a clear sign of anything else either. It could be he is just tired.
@49: My thoughts are it is to be flipped over: Dalinar doesn’t reject the Thrill after feeling disgusted by the killing, but before. It is how it happens in WoK: he loses the Thrill, then he feels disgusts, not before. He was not disgusted at all when he had it, he was rejoicing in the killing thinking how mistaken he had been to not enjoy it before.
I however have no intention to quarrel with you. I thought it was a valid point to raise, but since you so strongly disagree, I agree to drop it. Why do I even bother to argue? I sense nothing more than an annoyance towards my own person for daring posting, no matter which subject I try to broach. I will try to be more quiet up until the end of the re-read, this way everyone will be happier.
Gepeto, it has nothing to do with you personally. In general, though I’ve been trying very hard to simply not engage with you when we disagree, it has to do with an insistence that the way you read a character is the only way; it has even more to do with twisting the text to fit your view. In this case, it has everything to do with you insisting that the way you remember something is the way it happened, when I just went and looked it up in the book and you’re wrong:
There are more examples of Dalinar losing the Thrill involuntarily through TWoK, and in every case the revulsion and nausea comes before the loss of the Thrill. That said, there are times when he chooses to embrace the Thrill, and doing so makes the nausea go away. My personal opinion is that deliberately choosing the Thrill diminishes the effectiveness of the Nahel bond – that for a short while, he unknowingly chooses Odium over Honor, though he always does it in the name of honor or survival.
In WoR, Dalinar doesn’t do as much fighting, so we see the Thrill more with Sadeas – who never fights it at all – and with Adolin. In several of his duels, it’s noted that he’s well into the duel before the Thrill rises, and in the duel against Elit, he deliberately fights the whole thing without the Thrill, fighting in absolutely perfect form and calmness. Next week, we’ll actually be rereading the first time Adolin feels and regrets the absence of the Thrill. (Side note: on the subject of the Thrill diminishing because of Nergaoul moving away, there’s a point at which Sadeas thinks that the Thrill fades faster after a battle than it used to. He attributes this to his own knowledge that the battles they’re fighting really don’t matter… but he has no reason to connect it to Nergaoul. I don’t know whether Taravangian is correct, but there’s another snippet to throw into the discussion.)
As you should know, I have actively defended your right to post what you want, even if I disagree with it. That said, I get irritated with floods of words attempting to prove your point based on your experience and perception rather than a straight reading of the text or WoB. Perhaps it’s because I’ve worked so hard to avoid doing the same thing, and have developed the habit of going and looking things up when I’m not sure, or at least making it clear that something is only based on recollection. Feel free to continue posting – but you need to recognize that when your opinion is based on personal experience, the experiences of others will make them disagree with you.
To me, this is the pivotal point of Kaladin and Elhokar’s relationship. And I cant’ help myself but find Elhokar a good guy guy. He might not be a good king. (heaven forbid, human history has lots of those), but Elhokar is showing he is trying to do the right thing. And saying “thank you?” to Kaladin, though in the form of a question truly shows his character is evolving.
@51: Feel free to post whatever you want, we shall tolerate you, but… you shall never be one of us.
The truth hurts, but thank you nonetheless for your honesty, I appreciate it. I simply wanted you to know I have tried. I have tried Alice, I really did try to be someone others would enjoy talking to. I am sorry I am simply not good at this: even if you gave my a procedure to follow, I would still be bad at it.
I also apologize for having raised a point and being wrong about it: was I really the only one guilty of this?
I do not know if I have the heart to exercise my “right to post” anymore. Only I have this answer, but I will try to be less, I don’t know, less whatever it is I am providing I can figure out how not to be this person anymore.
@@@@@53 – Well, thanks for reminding me why I’ve avoided responding to your posts. I don’t do passive-aggressive melodrama. Whatever.
RestlessSpirit @@@@@18 (and several others) – I love the idea that this might be the start of a friendship between Elhokar and Kaladin. There are plenty of things that argue both for and against the idea, but I think it would be a nicely unexpected path to take.
@@@@@ several regarding Nergaoul – I went back and reread the conversation between Taravangian and Adrotagia, and I get the impression that the Thrill is pretty much always there for Alethi, and perhaps to a less-reliable extent for the people of Jah Keved, and maybe even all the followers of Vorinism. It’s just stronger or weaker depending on how close Nergaoul is to the physical locale. So it’s not like the soldiers on the Shattered Plains would no longer get the Thrill, it just wouldn’t be so strong and wouldn’t drive them to the lengths they might have gone to had it been stronger. Does that make sense? They talk about how the Veden soldiers “fought through the night while their capital burned” with the implication (I think) that the Thrill was driving them to ignore what would normally get their attention – and now, with the Thrill gone, they sit numb. I don’t think we have enough actual information to know how it works, but we at least have this in-book speculation.
@53 Gepeto – you rub people the wrong way when you post things like “the Fall would give Adolin more screen time than the Ascendant King, not to mention the Ascendant King has to be the most boring arc for him.” It gives the impression like you don’t trust Brandon’s writing or plotting skills to handle his characters in a convincing way and give them a satisfying ending for the plot and the readers. You say you stopped being optimistic about reading SA (“I do not mean to sound so hopeless, but being too optimistic is dangerous”), and when you write your posts here we can all see how negative and jaded you are. Maybe you should appreciate the series for what they are rather than what you wish they should be. You would enjoy it more that way.
Please tell me someone else looks at the Thrill as similar to Berserker rage?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
Thus its loss does not impact ones ability to fight, rather it just removes the joy one fills at causing death and destruction.
Since the Thrill has been a part of Vorin culture for centuries, it’s loss is going to be felt in some manner. Right now we have individual examples of how warriors have lost the feeling.
Fingers crossed that this becomes a general loss, so that once the Voidbringers are destroyed, the culture can move past it’s focus on war.
The Thrill has been like a drug high to the Vorins. Cut it off, the drive for that drug will lessen over time. This is my hope.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 56 – Wow, good connection about the Thrill and Berserker. I see how these two can be related.
In Final Fantasy X-2 and others (gosh there are so many, I cannot remember which is which because fans are now waiting for Final Fantasy 16 to be released September 2016), there is an upgrade in a character during fighting which is called Berserker which basically makes your character (or avatar) faster, stronger and has more life.
Generally, gamers use it for melee fighting and boss fights. (I use it that way, too), There is one problem with Berserker mode though – it is do or die. You either kill all the enemies and survive or you die. It’s because in Berserker mode, you cannot heal yourself if you are damaged. There is more to it than that, but I don’t want to do a Final Fantasy Walkthrough here. LOL.
That said, since the Way of Kings, I have always thought of Adolin as in an upgrade mode when he is fighting with his shardblade, especially that time at the Tower when Kaladin and Bridge 4 saved the Kholin army. I have always thought of Adolin as in berserk mode during that time. I don’t have a reason except that it reminded me of Final Fantasy.
In fact, that whole scene at The Tower was perfect for a video game. Kaladin using stormlight ( we call it magic break in Final Fantasy) to heal himself and give him agility, speed, etc. For Adolin, as a gamer, I see him using his ultimate weapon. LOL I know it probably sound boring to you, but if you are a Final Fantasy fan, you will understand the obsession.
So, yes, I see the connection between The Thrill and the Berserk mode. I was just not able to articulate it to myself until now. :-)
Thanks for the quote, Gepeto @47!
“The answer is yes, this is part – this is in play. Though you could say the reason he has a connection to the Stormfather also influences the reason he rejects the Thrill, so it may be more correlation than causation, but there’s at least a little causation as well.”
To me, this is fairly straightforward – the reason is that Dalinar started to believe in and follow the Codes. Which made him attractive to the Stormfather and led to him rejecting the Thrill. And Adolin is rejecting and losing the Thrill for the same reason.
Speaking of the Thrill, BTW – it seems like more than a coincidence that Alethkar used to be the Silver kingdom specialised on war, and Alethi have the Thrill. The Radiants in Dalinar’s vision where he fought the midnight essence told him that there was a trick to being a warrior, but not letting the violence harm you emotionally. Is the Thrill one more example of abilities and ideals initially gifted by Honor being subverted and corrupted by Odium after the breaking of the Oathpact? Of course, the Herald of War was the only one to remain true, so I dunno…
@Gepeto: who knows, maybe I’m just taking “passive-aggressive melodrama” bait, but I might as well give you the benefit of the doubt and say that your fellow commenters are not some monolithic entity that hates you and wants to exclude you. Alice expressed a personal opinion that she doesn’t care for how you write and consequently doesn’t want to argue with you, but she is not trying to speak for all of us. I enjoy your long character analyses (and have said so on occasion), my sister does too, and we can hardly be the only ones. Please do not let the frustration of a few individual commenters convince you that they or the WoR reread as a whole dislikes you as a person and wishes you would shut up. That is not true.
Anyways, I have no desire to drag this out – I’m just hoping that we can all feel free, regardless of various personal disagreements, to get on with discussing these books that we love (which I guess is just about the only thing we can all agree on…that the SA is awesome :P).
@58 Isilel: What are you thinking of as other examples of Odium corrupting gifts from Honor? I thought of the similarity between voidspren bonding and Radiant-spren bonding, but both existed pre-Oathpact, and the voidspren were not necessarily a copy or corruption of the Radiant-spren. Now I’m wondering…when did voidspren first start possessing the Parshendi? Was that happening before other spren started bonding with humans and copying the powers of the Honorblades?
Speaking of the Unmade, this chapter’s epigraph seems to fit with the Cosmere concept of a soul needing to be “broken” or “cracked” for magic/Investiture to enter: “His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body”. Thoughts?
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 56 – The Thrill and Berserkers are so closely linked in my mind that it wasn’t until this Reread that it occurred to me that the Thrill was anything other than Brandon’s name for a Berserker state. Now I have lots of new thoughts to play with, both in Cosmere terms and in “were the Vikings actually aliens affected by malevolent spren?” terms.
sheesania @59 – Good heavens, no. I never claim to speak for anyone but myself – I refuse to take responsibility for other people’s positions! Also, it’s worth noting that when I’m writing the blog, I’m sort of “in official capacity” but when I’m making comments, I’m usually in “personal opinion” mode. Given the diverse personalities, backgrounds, experiences, and belief systems represented by those who comment here, I think it’s safe to say that there are very few things we ALL agree on, and not that many things that “a bunch of us” agree on. But we all enjoy the Cosmere.
It might also be worth suggesting that we should all attempt to avoid the idea that disagreement = personal animosity. There are folks on here that I’ve been disagreeing with from time to time for six or seven years now, and I consider them friends; we don’t have to agree on everything to enjoy the discussion.
That last paragraph is a good lesson for any internet action; it’s a pity there are so many places where people refuse to even consider that notion. I’m glad this comment section is usually as agreeable as it is, all things considered.
The idea with that attractor fabrial sounded great when I read it. Made me wonder what else you could get to attract to it. Say if Navani knew the upgraded Parshendi could call down lightning, could you tweak the attractor to draw the lightning to it?
I guess the followup to that is whether the red lightning could re-infuse a spent gem? Have your soldier wear a shield with a lightning attractor on and it could be like having a rechargeable battery on hand. The lightning dissipated around Adolin’s armour when it struck (I think?), and I think he said he felt a buzz or something similar? Not sure if that might suggest the lightning giving his armour gems a boost.
Never quite understood how exactly the storms re-infused the gems, whether the gems just needed to be in the general vicinity of the lightning or had to be directly struck, or maybe just in the lightning-charged air perhaps.
Maybe there is something about how the Investiture manifests that makes it vulnerable to Odium’s influence. Kinda like how Allomancy lends itself to corruption through Hemulurgy. I mean, the powers work the same way, burn metal, use power. It’s the acquisition of the power that’s different.
@62
Bravo!
I don’t think recharging the gems in a Highstorm has anything to do with lightning. The storm simply contains Investiture (and crem) and the gems can absorb Stormlight when exposed to it.
@59, regarding your @58 comment, I’ve been wondering about the voidspren time line too! I remember reading this Listener song stanza:
The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We can’t provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.
And thinking that they betrayal could have been the spren choosing to bond with the humans rather than the Listeners once the Nahel bond was discovered. I remember Pattern telling Shallan that the numbers of “smart” spren were limited back then (what made them up their numbers since is another question I have simmering), so if all of the higher spren chose the humans instead (because of what they get out of the deal, and “all” being strongly suggested by Pattern in that same conversation with Shallan), maybe then many forms were no longer accessible to the Listeners. That would understandably cause panic/confusion/anger, and then here comes Odium offering them new spren that can regain their lost power/abilities/forms, without mentioning the whole taking-over-your-mind bit.
It’s possible that my timeline (amongst other things) is way off, but that’s where my brain went with the “betrayal” line.
I’m not qualified to professionally analyze anyone’s character (I’m a chemist not a psychologist), nor would it be appropriate to do so in a public venue. However, Gepeto, has been unusually honest about his perceived quirks in his postings. I gather, then, that he honestly feels these emotions rather than putting it on for dramatic effect. That, I believe, should entitle him to more leeway. Post away, Gepeto, just please try harder not to swamp the commentary section with a host of long comments.
Re: the Thrill and Berserkers: YES!!!