Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan continued to try to decipher the Oathgate while Adolin and Dalinar took on the Assassin; it culminated in Kaladin arriving comet-like to save the day. This week, events escalate further as Shallan figures out the Oathgate, while Kaladin and Szeth battle above and through the clashing highstorm and Everstorm.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 86: Patterns of Light
Point of View: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan,
Kaladin, Shallan, Kaladin, Shallan, Kaladin
Setting: the Oathgate, the Central Plateaus, the sky
Symbology: Pattern, Nalan, Jezrien
IN WHICH Kaladin finally admits he’s a Radiant; Kaladin and Szeth begin their battle.
… Shallan seeks the pattern of the Oathgate; she finally sees that it’s a fabrial.
… Dalinar turns his attention to the retreat; Adolin is pleased; Sebarial and Palona are unexpected; the evacuation continues.
… Kaladin chases Szeth, delighting in Syl’s presence; they meet above the storms; Kaladin hasn’t practiced sword-fighting; Syl becomes a Shardspear; Szeth holds desperately to his pseudo-facts.
… Shallan finally admits she’s a Radiant; she infuses the Oathgate lamps until she runs out of Stormlight; Shallan finds Adolin, and inhales Stormlight; he recognizes her action and is pleased.
… Kaladin fights for his life; Syl anticipates Kaladin’s needs, but he still can’t quite win; Szeth turns to pursue his original target: Dalinar.
… Shallan finishes charging the lamps; Adolin’s blade cannot unlock the Oathgate; she finally admits that Pattern is her Blade; she activates the Oathgate.
… Kaladin chases Szeth; Syl cautions him about the clashing storms; both men replenish their Investiture from the highstorm as they go; in a flash of lightning, they see armies and disaster on the target plateau; the next flash reveals Szeth baffled and the army gone.
… Shallan has saved a few, but fears what they will find in the silence outside; through a new doorway in the outer wall they find sunshine, four armies, and Urithiru.
… Kaladin hears screams above the storm; Szeth hurls himself westward toward the Oathgate’s destination; Kaladin follows, with difficulty; the fight continues, falling westward before the stormwall; Syl changes forms as needed; Szeth begins to panic; windspren seem to enwrap Kaladin; Szeth faces Kaladin and submits to truth; Kaladin severs Szeth’s sword hand; assassin and Blade fall, no longer bonded; as Kaladin soars above the storm with the recovered Blade, his collection of windspren zip away; Syl approves his actions and teases him; he smiles.
Quote of the Week
Okay, I’m cheating. Double-dipping. Or, well, triple-dipping. Sorry.
“Kaladin?”
Kaladin turned, glancing at the highprince, who stood tall, despite cradling one arm against his chest. Dalinar met his eyes. “You are what I’ve been looking for.”
“Yes. Finally.”
…
“Damnation,” Adolin said. “That bridgeboy is really one of them? The Knights Radiant?”
“Yes.”
Oddly, Adolin smiled, seeming satisfied. “Ha! I knew there was something wrong with that man.”
…
Shallan breathed in sharply, and Stormlight entered her, bringing her to life. Adolin had a gemstone or two on him, apparently. He pulled back, looking her over.
“You too?” he said.
“Um…” She bit her lip. “Yeah. Sorry.”
“Sorry? Storms, woman! Can you fly like he does?”
“Fly?”
Thunder cracked. Impending doom. Right.
I just get a charge out of that sequence. It’s so much fun. For now, at least, Adolin doesn’t have the slightest problem with Kaladin and Shallan being Radiants. He’s quite pleased, in fact.
In case you’re wondering how Shallan knew about Kaladin, to make sense out of “You too?”… I’ll toss in my best analysis. A few days ago (Ch. 77-78), Shallan told Navani about Jasnah; Navani told Dalinar, who then spoke with Shallan about it. While Shallan made him promise not to tell anyone about her own status, nothing prevented Dalinar from telling Adolin about Jasnah. So while “You, too?” from Adolin’s perspective meant Kaladin—hence the “Can you fly?”—Shallan knows nothing of Kaladin and assumes he meant Jasnah—hence the “Fly?” puzzlement.
Off the Wall
One is almost certainly a traitor to the others.
–From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 27
One might assume the 2nd Desk Drawer is all about the Unmade, given the epigraphs of Chapters 81 and 82. If so, how and why would one Unmade betray the others? Or perhaps the inscription concerns the Heralds; in that case, perhaps Nalan might be the traitor. But… I don’t know. I’m not sure how either of them fits what little context we have. Frankly, “context” is overstating the situation: we have two other quotations from the 2nd Desk Drawer, labeled as paragraphs 14 and 15, but 15 ended with an effort to change the subject completely. Without knowing what’s in paragraphs 16-26, we really don’t have context.
Well. That wasn’t very helpful.
Commentary
Another firestorm of a chapter! I deliberately listed all the POV changes, just so you could have a visual. Avalanche FTW! There’s so much in this chapter, and so many details I want to touch on. I’m afraid the commentary will be a little disjointed; I can only hope it doesn’t sound completely schizophrenic.
For starters, I have to point out the bridgemen—as always, doing their job, being exactly where they’re needed. They’ve become quite a team. Having promptly regrouped, they need only one quick command from Teft to provide Kaladin with a replenishment of Stormlight. Then, as their commander flies away, they move on to the next thing—two follow Dalinar, the rest go with Adolin (some carrying Adolin’s battered Shardplate) to help where they’re needed next. I love these guys.
Sebarial and Palona… oh, help! They are hilarious! Fruit, wine, and a novel in the middle of a hurricane. (I assume she’s only pretending to read, though.) Naturally, for all he’s having fun looking nonchalant, Sebarial has organized not only his own army, but also Roion’s, and has them nearly across to the Oathgate plateau. He also knows the status of Adolin’s and Aladar’s armies, and has heard the news of Roion. The guy is an organizing genius.
He is also, somehow, still dry. Hmmmm. I really do wonder if he’s a Radiant… or if Palona is. Or both—that would be priceless.
Aladar has done his job well, as noted last week. He won his plateau, in an unquestionable victory.
The Vengeance Pact is fulfilled! Gavilar is avenged, and the war is over!”
So proud. Dalinar had difficulty finding the words to deflate him, so he just stared at the other man. Feeling numb.
Can’t afford that, Dalinar thought, sagging in his saddle. Have to lead.
“It doesn’t matter, does it?” Aladar asked more softly. “That we won?”
I do feel badly for Aladar. For the first time in years, he’s stepped up and done something significant, something to truly be proud of… and it almost doesn’t matter. The Vengeance Pact is fulfilled, but the world has moved on, the Desolation is upon them, and vengeance, even for an assassinated king, is all but meaningless at this point.
The rest of the chapter switches back and forth to keep a real-time connection between Shallan’s work in the Oathgate room and Kaladin’s battle with Szeth. So… let’s start with Shallan. Her subconscious mind finally puts together the clues she’s been seeing, and she realizes that the whole thing is an enormous fabrial (see below for further discussion).
So much for keeping her nature as a Surgebinder hidden.
Hah! This cracks me up. Just a few chapters ago, she made Dalinar promise not to tell anyone, but the secret’s out now. I could almost feel sorry for Inadara, who is quietly wigging out about Shallan sucking in Stormlight and moving it from one gem to another. Even funnier is the scholars sketching prayers, and Shallan wondering whether they were praying for protection from the storm or from her.
Then the storms collide. We’re never told just how many people are lost in these final moments, as the stormwalls hit from opposite sides while Shallan desperately tries and finally succeeds in activating the Oathgate. From Kaladin’s observation, apparently there were losses during this time.
But here’s where the flickering perspectives really pay off. Kaladin is seeing a cataclysm, which looks like the army will be totally wiped out in minutes, and then suddenly, in the next flash of lightning, the whole army is just… gone.
The sound of the storm vanishes, and Shallan knows the Oathgate worked, but there are so few people in the building. What about the army? Adolin once again slays a rock—cutting a doorway in the new position—to find that the army has come with them to Urithiru. Boom.
Finally, Kaladin and Szeth. Most of this is cool epic-battle-in-the-sky, very cinematic stuff. The bits with Syl-the-shifting-Shardweapon are discussed below; here, I want to focus on just a few of the more plot-significant issues.
At long last, we see Kaladin’s joy in Syl’s return, and she gets in a series of great jabs at him—which he loves, of course. She also warns him that the Stormfather hates him, and them, and wants to wash it all away. This is not encouraging.
Szeth is, naturally, disconcerted by Kaladin. He repeatedly tries to make Taravangian’s explanations cover the situation, but he’s seeing things that are impossible, and he knows it. His progress through this chapter is agonizing; as the evidence builds up that Kaladin is a true Windrunner, he is forced to acknowledge that everything he’s acted on for the past seven years and more has been false. He was right in the first place, when he claimed that the Voidbringers were returning, and his leaders were wrong when they named him Truthless and laid on him the burden of unquestioning obedience to the holder of his Oathstone.
This, of course, is where we find the major change to the ending of Word of Radiance, which Brandon felt was important enough to implement even after publication. In the original ending, as Szeth confronts the truth, he draws Kaladin to attack and deliberately doesn’t parry: it really is intentional suicide-by-duel. Kaladin follows through on the attack he started, and kills Szeth as Szeth had killed so many others. The Blade goes through the spine, the soul is severed, the eyes burn out, and his bond to the Honorblade is severed.
In the new ending, it all goes the same until Szeth doesn’t parry; now Kaladin diverts the stroke and sends his Blade through Szeth’s wrist, severing only the hand and forcing him to drop his Blade. Because he’s not dead, Syl has to tell Kaladin that Szeth has released the bond, and now the Blade is far more important than the assassin.
It’s nice in that Kaladin doesn’t kill a person who has made himself defenseless, and he can make the happy discovery that he really didn’t want to kill someone merely for revenge. It may also be nice in that Nalan will have less healing to do to make Szeth functional again. Mostly, it’s important for Kaladin to not enjoy killing, I think.
If I were Szeth, though, I think I’d prefer the first ending, if only to avoid this:
Nearby, the assassin dropped past him into the storm and was swallowed up, leaving Kaladin with the haunting image of Szeth’s limp silhouette being driven into a plateau below with all the tempest’s force.
For that matter, if I were Kaladin, I think I’d feel a lot better about the first-ending sword-thrust death than I would about the second-ending get-slammed-into-a-plateau death. Remember Roion’s screams?
Stormwatch
Day zero zero zero…
Sprenspotting
Kaladin was sure he heard terrible screams over the winds, as red spren he’d never seen before— like small meteors, trailing light behind them— zipped around him.
Are these the same red spren—stormspren—that Adolin observed in Chapter 81, wiggling out of the Parshendi when they were killed? There they were described as “small red spren, like tiny lightning, that zipped into the air and vanished.” Tiny lightning and small meteors trailing light don’t sound quite the same, so there are two likely solutions. One is that they looked like lightning when they left the Parshendi bonding, but here they’re free in the storm, so they look a little different. The other, which I suspect, is that they are yet another kind of Voidspren.
::shudder::
And now (drumroll please)… Kaladin’s windspren:
Syl spun into the air in front of him. But he was still carrying the spear. What?
Another one, then another. Ribbons of light, occasionally taking the shapes of young women or men, laughing. Windspren. A dozen or more spun around him, leaving trails of light, their laughter somehow strong over the sounds of the storm.
There! Kaladin thought.
Query: Do they actually help Kaladin find Szeth in the storm? It’s implied.
Windspren formed a halo around Kaladin, zipping in and out, spiraling, spinning around his arms and legs.
This makes it almost impossible not to assume that the windspren will eventually form Shardplate for Windrunners. Somehow. We’ve had this theory for a couple of years now, so it no longer has the stun factor it once did, but the first time I encountered it, my eyes sure popped wide open. O.O
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
One Ryshadium awaits his rider. This makes me sad about Sureblood all over again… but it also makes me happy that Dalinar still has Gallant.
Ars Arcanum
There’s a whole lot of arcaning going on up in here! Kaladin & Szeth spend the bulk of the chapter Windrunning, of course. I still haven’t quite decided how I feel about this kind of thing:
“You’re wrong,” Kaladin said. “About me. I’m not new to this.”
“You only just acquired your abilities.”
“No. The wind is mine. The sky is mine. They have been mine since childhood. You are the trespasser here. Not me.”
They broke apart, Kaladin throwing the assassin backward. He stopped thinking so much about his Lashings, about what he should be doing.
Instead, he let himself be.
On the one hand, it’s such a thrill to read. On the other, I have problems: How have the wind and sky been his since childhood? And after all the work he had to do earlier just to get off the ground, should it now be this instinctive? For the latter, the case can be made that he learned all the basics earlier, and now his intensified bond makes it possible to do all the things without thinking. I still don’t get the childhood thing. Maybe when he returns to Hearthstone, we’ll get some new hints?
But enough of that. Syl the shifting Shardweapon!
Oh. That’s right. You probably want me to be a spear, don’t you?
The weapon fuzzed to mist, then elongated and grew into the shape of a silvery spear, with glowing, swirling glyphs along the sharpened sides of the spearhead.
Did anyone not shriek aloud at this? It was so, so perfect. So suitable, too, that despite his failure to really work at learning sword-fighting, the years he spent perfecting spear-fighting are just as useful. It just keeps getting better, too, as she shifts from spear to shield to halberd to hammer to knife, back and forth , forming the weapon he needs just as he needs it. Sweeeet.
This also needs to be mentioned here:
The area around him lightened. Was that the assassin? Kaladin extended his hand to the side, and Syl formed into the Blade immediately.
“Not ten heartbeats?” he asked.
Not when I’m here with you, ready. The delay is primarily something of the dead. They need to be revived each time.
This will be addressed more fully in the next chapter, I believe, but it’s dropped in here, almost as an aside. There are, of course, Reasons. It explains why Syl can shift forms so quickly, and why she can dissipate to mist and then be instantly back in useful form when he needs her. It also helps make sense out of this one last quotation…
“It’s not working,” Adolin shouted.
Only one answer.
Shallan grabbed the hilt of his sword and whipped it out— ignoring the scream in her mind that came from touching it— then tossed it aside. Adolin’s sword vanished to mist.
A deep truth.
“There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades.” She hesitated for just a second. “All but mine. Pattern!”
He formed in her hands, the Blade she’d used to kill. The hidden soul. Shallan rammed it into the slot, and the weapon vibrated in her hands and glowed. Something deep within the plateau unlocked.
It’s not blatant, but this is the first moment when Shallan acknowledges even to herself that Pattern is her Shardblade. We saw it evidenced in the chasms, when she couldn’t make her illusions move because Kaladin had her Shardblade, but even then, her mind skirted around the reason for it. (Well, and we weren’t supposed to know yet, of course.) This is a deep truth that she’s been hiding from for the last six years. On the rare occasions when she used her Blade, we’ve seen her consciously take the ten heartbeats to summon him, because that’s the way it’s supposed to work. Now, when she accepts the deeper truth, he can form instantly, and now we know why.
Ars Mechanica
Why is it that whenever I start talking about fabrials, I just end up asking questions? Shallan recognizes the Oathgate as a fabrial, but is she correct? Or, to ask the question another way, does the Oathgate fit the definition of “fabrial” as we learned it from Navani? We know that modern Rosharans can reliably design and manufacture fabrials, to the point that it’s basically magic-powered technology; they do it by trapping specific spren in specific gemstones, combining them and directing the resulting surges by means of a machine. Is the Oathgate just a bigger and more sophisticated version of the same thing? Or is it something… more, somehow?
What we know of the Oathgate’s intended function is that it uses the Surge of Transportation to move the user between the point of origin and any of the other ten Oathgates. It requires a living, sapient spren to operate it, though the spren doesn’t appear to be taking any deliberate action; the Knight Radiant merely uses the spren in Blade-form as both key and lever to select the destination. It is powered by Stormlight-infused gems held in metal latticework; one of the gems is a ruby. (My guess is that the ten lamps hold the ten key gemstones, but we aren’t told. Otherwise, I don’t know why a ruby would be here; it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with Transportation.) The “keyhole” is some mysterious substance which appears to be the same as a Shardblade; does that mean the keyhole itself is a spren? (Mighty patient spren, if it’s been waiting here for a few thousand years…)
More questions must be asked: is there more to the working of this place? Is there an underground component of machinery? Is there anything underground? Is there any way the Listeners who rejected stormform could have been hiding within the range of the Oathgate? And no less important: when you have one functioning Oathgate, can you force access to one that (as far as you know) is not functioning? Can they use the Oathgate to get to Kholinar? Presumably we’ll get the answer to that in SA3.
Heraldic Symbolism
I have the usual questions about Nalan’s representation in this chapter. As always, there’s the question of whether this is foreshadowing for later events. Other than that, Szeth is agonizing about whether he was rightly keeping the law of his people, or whether he was wrongly judged and condemned, and all his resulting actions have also been wrong. That’s as good a reason for Nalan’s presence as any, being all concerned with law-keeping.
As for Jezrien, Kaladin is rightly pursuing the one who wants to kill those he is sworn to protect, to keep him from doing so. However, when Szeth simply gives up, Kaladin no longer wishes to take his life. I’m a bit conflicted about just how honorable it is to incapacitate someone and let him fall a few hundred feet to his death, though.
Just Sayin’
What in Kelek’s tongue is going on out here?
Someone recently pointed out that “Kelek’s breath” is a frequently used exclamation, and might perhaps be related to a certain someone from Nalthis, where Breath is magic. Here, it’s “Kelek’s tongue,” but that might actually be just as relevant, since a Command is also required to Awaken. It’s… open for theorizing, until the background of the Heralds is resolved.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when the characters begin to examine the fallout from these events. Also, the Lopen.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and is exceedingly thrilled about the new Arcanum Unbounded which is coming out in November. The artwork is fantastic, Khriss’s introductions to each system are mind-blowing, and Brandon’s notes on each story are, as always, fascinating glimpses behind the scenes. You’re going to want this.
Kal’s sequences makes all the Kaladin-you-idiot moments worth it. I’m pretty sure I screamed when Syl turned into a spear.
Ahhh, infamous chapter 86…I still don’t agree with the changes. Certainly I understand why the changes were made. But I have the original hardcover and I’m suppose to buy the book again? Also, you can’t just go back and change a published work! You just can’t (said in my best Mal voice). I think you should live with what was printed. That’s just me.
Summary: Wow that is so much to summarize! Very hard to keep it short this week. :-D
Q(s)otW: Best little bits.
Another favorite of mine is: Oh. That’s right. You probably want me to be a spear, don’t you?
Which you then cover. :-D I’m defiantly among the shriekers.
Off the Wall:
Part of me sees this a Moash. He betrayed Bridge 4. He and the rest were on their way to be Squires, but then he betrayed them all.
But the death rattles were the ones that saw the little details of Kaladin and Shallan returning from the chasms, so maybe the diagram can’t see those small details.
Sebarial: This is when I stated to think of him as Breeze.
The change: It was supposed to automatically update in the Kindle version, but mine never did. I keep meaning to print out the changes to keep a copy in my hardback, but haven’t looked them back up. Anyone have the link handy? Wish it was easier to find on Brandon’s website. It’s not under the WoR links.
Another great post Alice! I don’t have time for a longer comment right now but will comment later tonight.
Braid Tug @@@@@ 3 – Brandon’s website – http://brandonsanderson.com/ if that is the one you’re looking for. :-)
While the final two Wheel of Time books were published before WoR, I think that if Brandon had not actually written the Kaladin/Szeth fight in this chapter, he at least had outlined the basics. IIRC, Brandon said he took the existing mechanics of the World of Dreams and expanded upon those mechanics. That expansion lead to the battles that Perrin and Slayer had in the World of Dreams in the last two books. The mechanics of the World of Dreams (as Brandon expanded upon said mechanics) is very similar to the what (i) a Windrunner and honorspren; or (ii) a holder of Jezrien’s honorblade can do. In any event, I can definitely see the influence that the World of Dreams had on Brandon’s own in world rules for what a Windrunner can and cannot do.
Alice, the one problem for your explanation as to Shallan’s reaction to Adolin’s question of whether she can fly, is Adolin’s use of the word he. Adolin asks “Can you fly like he does?” I do not believe that Shallan thinks this question came because Jasnah/Dalinar told Adolin that Jasnah was a Knights Radiant. Rather, at this point, Shallan cannot fly. Her “talents” go another direction. Thus, the confusion.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Speaking of changes to this chapter…does anyone know if/when the corrections and changes to WOR are being incorporated into the hardcover version? Or do I have to wait ten years for the amazing leather-bound edition, like Elantris? :) I can’t do paperback, especially not for a book as beefy as WOR, and I don’t do e-books. There are worse things than having my copy of WOR be outdated, I suppose.
The 17th Shard has a list of the changes here:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23702-brandon-tweaking-words-of-radiance/#comment-235882
You might have to click on the “hidden contents” bit.
(ETA: Sorry, I meant to include that in the original post, but I forgot. :( My bad.)
AndrewHB @6 – In other discussions, some people were bothered by the fact that Shallan didn’t even do a, “Wait, what?” when Adolin said, “You, too?” She just knew right away that he recognized her action as that of a Radiant – so obviously he knew of another Radiant. Since she has no way of knowing about Kaladin being a Radiant – his dramatic arrival occurred while she was inside the Oathgate control room – why was she not more surprised by his recognition? With time for reflection, she would surely wonder who else he knew about, and how he knew about the breathing-in-Stormlight thing, but right now there’s only time for a reaction… and she reacts by knowing exactly what he’s talking about, without wondering at all how he even knew the Radiants were back. With Jasnah being the only other Radiant she knows, this provides a logical explanation as to how she could be unsurprised by Adolin knowing about Radiants.
Or she could simply be assuming that since the Radiants appearing to be returning, there are probably a whole bunch of them out there now, and lots of people know… but I doubt it.
Anyway, I read the “Fly?” question as her not thinking about Radiants in terms of flying, because the only ones she knows are Jasnah and herself, and neither of them has flying skills.
nageler @7 – I can’t remember 100%, but I believe the changes will be incorporated in all subsequent printings. If you’re willing to buy another doorstopper, you should be able to get a corrected version before the 10th anniversary. I think.
I have never heard of the new ending. the original sounds better.
A compiled list of changes from Words of Radiance including the Szeth scenes with Kaladin and Nalan.
http://snarkspren.tumblr.com/post/131976126565/wordsofradiancechanges
@5: Oh trust me, I spend much time on that website. I was talking about a direct link to the changes. It’s buried in almost 2 years worth of announcements and Tweets. Peter has said it should go to the deleted scenes, but has not gotten the time to do so yet.
So searches for all the related words on the site, generates long results pages of “not what I’m looking for.”
Edit: Mark shared while I was writing the posts. :-D Thanks Mark!
A friend has now shared a link with me, but I can’t post anything from Tumblr at work.
Shipping Wars:
Since Alice didn’t have the space, and there are much more important things to talk about – :-D
This is one of reasons I ship them. She’s in a desperate need of Stormlight, but the world stopped for her when she saw Adolin hurt.
When Kaladin shows up, her response is … much less.
But changes like these are another good reason to NOT rush the editing process of SA 3.
Personally, I’m ambivalent about the changes. I know Brandon felt strongly about it, and as the author he has a right to change things if he wants. Pretty sure he’ll do his best not to need to ever do it again!
– It was important for Kaladin’s character arc that he not kill a non-combatant.
– Repeatedly, Kaladin was unable to do more than wound Szeth, so it would take sort of a hokey twist of fate for him to finally get in a killing blow while Szeth was still fighting.
– Szeth’s character arc needed him to have his realization, and decide that he just wouldn’t defend himself any more.
So with all that, I can see him making the change… but I’m not entirely convinced that is was so necessary for Kaladin’s arc that it’s worth a post-publication change. It was easy enough for me to assume that Kaladin just didn’t react fast enough to modify his swing.
::shrug:: I’m not the one whose vote counts, though; Brandon has sole voting rights on this. :)
Do we actually know that? My reading has been that there’s a one-to-one correlation between the ten Oathgates scattered through the world and the ten at Urithiru. For one thing, there are ten at Urithiru (and not just one). For another, there’s a comment in Way of Kings (the chapter 46 epigraph) which refers to “the tariffs through Urithiru” – I take this to mean that any trip between two arbitrary Oathgates must pass through Urithiru.
Disjointed thoughts:
I’ve always read Shallan’s reaction to “You too?” and “Can you fly like he does?” as simply “I have no idea what you’re talking about and don’t have time to deal with it right now.”
I’ve always had the impression that there was a good deal of thematic and stylistic crossover between SA and Brandon’s WoT books, though I’m too lazy to document many concrete examples. One key one is SPOILER during the Dark One’s worldbuilding fight with Rand where he creates a world in which he let the Light think they won the Last Battle. Straight out of Odium’s playbook. I don’t really think this blending is a bad thing, and I doubt it’s possible to hold two such massive works in one’s mind without them bleeding into each other a bit.
I have mixed feelings on the Shardspear etc. ability. It was thrilling in the moment, but it comes with other implied forms such as Shardfoldingsteelchair and Shardboard with a Shardnail in it.
The ebook version at least auto-updates with the new duel ending. We may have to get used to post-publication tweaks if ebooks take over the world. I don’t think Kaladin’s revised actions are superior, but his examination of why he tried to spare Szeth does add to his character growth, imho.
Nazrax @13 – You’re right, we don’t know that. It does, however, seem eminently logical: why else are there depictions for all of the Oathgates, if you can’t go there? I can see why Urithiru would have a gate dedicated to each location, due to the probable amount of travel. Not sure about the tariff thing, though, other than a decision by the greasy gub’mint to refuse to allow the Oathgates to be used as originally intended, and requiring that all commerce via Oathgates go through Urithiru…
I suspect we will learn more eventually. I sure hope so, anyway!
I have both the hardcover and the ebook. I read the book via my nook, and mainly referred to the hardcover when I wanted to look at the sketches & artwork in more detail, so until now, I had no idea about the two different endings. Now I can’t wait to get home to see the original in print!
If our ebook version isn’t autoupdating, how do we force it?
I totally missed the hint that windspren would be the Shardplate for a Windrunner. I always assumed that once Kaladin and Syl were reunited, regular Shardplate would be auto-upgraded for him due to the bonding with Syl.
In the original version, Kaladin didn’t intentionally kill Szeth, he expected him to parry.
How does Kaladin know the term Lashing?
@18 In WoR, chapter 33, after Szeth and Kaladin both fall, when Szeth is trying to figure out how Kaladin survives, he muses “Did I Lash you? … I must have Lashed you upward.”
@13: Re: Tariffs,
Remember that the crossing between the two cities costs Stormlight to transport people and stuff.
With KR all around they could transfer light between everything, but it still uses up Stormlight.
Thus there is a costs. And costs have to be paid. We have yet to hear how the KR were able to pay for all their food, housing, squires, etc.
So yes, we will have to wait for book 3 (or longer) to find out how their system worked.
To push an update on Amazon, hover over “Your Account” and scroll down to “Manage Your Content and Devices” and click on it. Find the item(s) you want to update (there’s also a Search function if you have a lot of content, like me).
You’ll see a button that says “Update Available” next to the Kindle titles that have an update available. It may give you a warning, click Ok and it should push the update.
The following link should also work:
https://www.amazon.com/mn/dcw/myx.html
Two amusing thoughts:
1. Did anyone else think “Duck, duck, goose!” when reading the Point of View listing? No? Just me?
2. Reading the corrections to WoR linked by Mark Scrudder @10, I was struck by this one:
That puts an entirely different spin on the shipping wars…
@2. Austin – I absolutely agree with you about the change. “You can’t just go back and change a published work! You just can’t!” I have never heard of something this significant changing after publication. I have heard of little details, such as the ending of “Ender’s Game” when he leaves earth, or some verbiage in “Lord of the Rings”/”Hobbit”. But I have never heard of a key element of the climax of a book changing. I was very upset when I heard about the change. I really did not understand his reasoning. Brandon tries to make it sound important and unimportant at the same time. The reason he gives rings hollow, because I didn’t feel Kaladin could have known that Szeth was surrendering. In fact, I don’t think Szeth was surrendering, he was allowing himself to be killed, which is different. It also had major implications with our understanding of who can be brought back from the dead. That a severed soul by a Shardblade can be brought back or not.
It felt to me that Brandon betrayed some sort of sacred trust between authors and readers. I will never trust again! (maybe over-dramatic)
OK, getting off my soapbox.
13. Nazrax – I assumed that you could go to any of the ten cities, since Shallan had to turn section depicting Urithiru. How do we know there are 10 oathgates at Urithiru? I missed that.
@22 I’ve been shipping Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan since the start.
I actually planned to get three versions of the Stormlight books, Kindle, Hardback US cover, Paperback UK cover. Kindle version arrives at midnight on release day/morning so I get to start reading the instant it is available and is a handy size for carrying around whenever I want it. I was happy to just have a paperback version for other purposes and looking at the illustrations properly but then I found out that the US hardback is just so much better, I could still have the UK paperback for non wrist breaking reading.
I’ve not been a fan of most of the US covers for Brandon’s books but the artwork for WoR is a huge improvement over most, including WoK (at least the final version is, the preview version we saw where Kaladin is fondling a glowing jellyfish while getting ready to assault precinct 13 was just laughable). When I discovered that Brandon was changing the ending of WoR slightly I figured ‘OK my paperback version will be the new version’. I guess I waited too long to get it, I wanted to be sure that I was getting the new version but once I looked around I could only find the ‘chopped into two separate books’ version and I really hated that, I hate them on principle but they will hardly look right on the shelf next to the single copy version of WoK either. So now I have the original US hardback and the original kindle version (perhaps it was meant to auto update but it doesn’t) and no paperback at all.
As for the difference between killed by Shardblade and death by splat, they are both just as fast really. Roion only screamed because he really did not want to die, Szeth did. He has no terror of the fall itself.
The key plate need not be made of manifest spren, I assume it is simply heavily Invested somehow. It is very difficult to affect something that is already Invested, I assume that applies to Shardblade damage too.
@14 I assume that there is a cognitive aspect as to what shape a Shardblade can take. They can only become specific weapons of war rather than any random object. Just as Kaladin’s scars do not heal because he sees them as part of himself a Shardblade cannot be anything that is not viewed as something a warrior would bear.
@23 Never heard of a key element of a book being changed before? Well let me blow your mind.
http://tolkien.cro.net/tolkien/changes.html
Gollum used to be such a friendly character.
My question is this: if the ten heartbeats thing is “primarily something of the dead,” then why does Szeth need ten heartbeats to summon his Honorblade (read the prologue in The Way of Kings)?
I agree that the ending shouldn’t have been changed. Maybe if it had been that way from the start I could have agreed, but honestly Szeth dying from releasing a bond doesnt have the same style. Compared to the original ending the new one just feels hollow. The way I had always read the original Szeth was forcing Kaladin to either kill him or else Kaladin would be killed. It says that Szeth stayed in offense which to me meant he was still attacking so Kaladin was forced to kill him. There was nothing any more dishonorable with that than when he was slaughtering parshendi in the Way of Kings. The new ending just overall feels contrived so that Kaladin doesn’t have to do something he doesnt want to even when it’s for the best, and though that may fit the plot it just doesn’t fit the moment’s feel. This was supposed to be a final battle. (As at this point we didn’t know Szeth was coming back) It almost seems disrespectful to have Szeth die the way he does in the new ending. I at least had some emotional investment in his character and the new ending was pathetic and didn’t really fit Szeth’s character. Hopefully there’s no more post publication editing, because I don’t think it should happen again. Especially with major plot points
@12
calling Szeth a noncombatant is the stretchiest stretch of all stretches. Just because he dropped his sword at the last second does not make him a noncombatant. He killed Roion, seriously injured Dalinar and Adolin, nearly killed Dalinar, in this same sequence. Just because he decided at the last second to let Kaladin actually hit him doesn’t make the whole sequence suddenly stop.
And Kaladin doesn’t suddenly get a hokey kill shot. It explicitly says he was expecting a parry in the paragraph right before (my kindle still hasn’t updated either) and Szeth lets him hit.
I don’t really care a lot about which version is “canon”, since the end result doesn’t change. But like a couple others mentioned, I’m just pretty eyerolly about the whole thing.
I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this before. But I was much more OMG about Nalan bringing Szeth back from the dead after the Shardblade-severed spine – it was a much bigger twist after seeing Szeth actually die.
As for the death itself: it fit the build-up of the past two books so much more to have the climatic battle between Kaladin and Szeth result in a decisive death strike rather than to just disarm him basically.
These few chapters were equally brilliant and exhausting. So much to take in!
So, we finally get to where the changes start. I can understand why it throws a lot of people off, and it’s unfortunate we have two versions of something so close together – Sanderson stated himself that he was super reluctant to make the change because of this reason. I trust his judgment on this matter: there’s value in both scenes, but he’s the person who will be writing the next 8 books so it’s most important he himself is alright with the version he has fixed in his story. And while I wish I could say there’s always the original for those people who prefer it, this isn’t a change years/decades after the fact, this is one recently made after publication that affects the canon of its work directly.
(shrug)
Life is hard and we all make mistakes, I think I prefer Sanderson deciding to make the changes now though and not try and write the future SA sequels with this weight on his mind.
As for the chapter itself, I’ll start with Shallan’s weird reaction to Adolin saying “You too?” in regard to her being a KR. I agree with @14 Zodda, I’ve always read that scene as Shallan’s train of thought having a rocky time on its tracks, so she has a hard time picking out the right thing to question (notably, she does still respond to Adolin in a way appropriate to the structure of the conversation, with not as much regard to its full content, and that’s before she remembers it’s world-ending-o-clock outside). Although that said, I can also see it being her simply rolling with the knowledge that there would be other KRs, so Adolin recognizing what she just did is not really that spectacular, especially given the crazy circumstances surrounding them right that moment.
And if we want to get a bit ridiculous, it’s possible she subconsciously made the connection of Kaladin being a possible KR but because of how busy she’s been (and how she’s tried very specifically *not* to think of Kaladin too much) she just never consciously realized it, especially since it would have been in spite of Kaladin not just straight up healing from wounds Stormlight would work on (but of course, Shallan herself has hidden Stormlight use by this point). So when Adolin offhandedly brings it up she’s aware of it, but she of course would have no idea about the flying specifically.
@11 Braid_Tug: I completely didn’t realize Alice didn’t have room for Shipping Wars until your comment. That’s actually the one late-book Adolin and Shallan scene I found overall endearing and I could see as being good for shipping (most other late-book scenes of Adolin and Shallan I can find going both ways or don’t seem super significant, mileage may vary and all). Although I wouldn’t compare it to when Kaladin shows up later, there’s two very different backgrounds to each scene…and personally, regardless of shipping, I think Shallan would be a bit sore with Kaladin in the last few sections of WoR, just because she didn’t draw the connection of him being a KR as obviously as he did with her. :D
And to make this super long comment a little longer, Kaladin saying he’s owned his skills since childhood…part of this, I think, is just Kaladin realizing this is what he’s been missing since basically his childhood. Just, being a Windrunner feels right to him. But more importantly, we saw back when he was training with basic Lashing, that his major problem was making it feel natural – like something you learn as a child. So, Kaladin just…accepts that he must know how these movements work deep down, and he does.
Somewhat.
Admittedly, I don’t think he’s great with them yet – but making this realization pushes him up enough that he can overcome a Szeth who, while still very skilled, is incredibly worn down mentally.
@3 Sebarial as Breeze? Perhaps, but Sebarial doesn’t seem to be missing a hand (this, we know, can be corrected). There’s definitely something to the man, and he also seems to be the model Highprince of Commerce. I can hardly wait to see more of him. Still, I don’t think he’s a Radiant either, more likely a Worldhopper.
@14 You don’t want a Shardfoldingsteelchair, a Shardboard, or a Shardnail, unless you also want your Spren sidekick to tease you to no end about it ;)
Did anyone else find it odd that Dalinar and Navani arrive at the Oathgate at the same time, even though Dalinar sent Navani to go to Shallan before fighting with Szeth, then finding Roion’s army and talking to Sebarial, then finding and talking to Aladar?
This has probably been posted and talked about many times over, but are we going to find out that the Heralds are all from different worlds and were gathered together by someone (Someone-higher power?) to fight Odium? So maybe a certain someone is Kelek, and maybe Raoden is a Herald-which one could he possibly be? That could be why Galloden is trying to find Hoid, maybe Hoid was the Herald recruiter for Adonalsium.
It’s a pity that I have gotten super busy just as this re-read is going through some of the most action filled chapters of this book. Ah well, such is life. I am enjoying reading everyone’s thoughts though. :)
@27
I always assumed that Szeth, like Shallan, thought that the blade had to take ten heartbeats and therefore it took ten heartbeats to call the blade. Szeth’s own belief in the time that it took to call the blade being the reason for the delay.
Shallan refused to acknowledge that there was something different about her blade and therefore took more time to call Pattern as blade than she needed. While I don’t know for sure that the Honorblade has a spren form, I don’t think it’s ever told Szeth that it doesn’t need ten heartbeats and if the Honorblade does have it’s own personality (which if you think about it; Nightblood does, Pattern does, Sly does, why shouldn’t the Honorblades have their own personalities) I get the feeling that it hasn’t had any conversations with Szeth and probably wouldn’t want to be used as Szeth has been using it. Therefore less likely to want to help Szeth be faster at killing people. This is blade in particular is for the ideal of Windrunners (protect and lead) and is being used by someone who is essentially a Skybreaker (justice above all and follow the law). If the blade got a say it wouldn’t be happy with Szeth.
This is all of course assuming that the honor blades aren’t dead. I could be over thinking it. The Heralds did break their oaths after all, and the broken oath is what killed the spren and trapped them in the blade form in the physical realm. The Honorblade could be dead and subject to the same 10 heartbeats rule as the rest of the dead shardblades
I think Honorblades are magical yet not alive. Shardblades are alive because they are Cognitive consciousnesses given form in the Physical realm. They came to the party alive, they modeled their physical capabilities off of the Heralds, and they were allowed to keep thinking
I’m with EvilMonkey on this one. I think the Honorblades are simply magical creations which give their holder certain abilities, but are not and never were alive, much less self-aware. Living Shardblades, like Syl, Pattern, and Ivory, are sapient spren (as we all know), and the other “standard” Shardblades are the sorta-still-sapient spren who were “killed” and locked in sword form by the broken bonds. The thing is, for hundreds of years, the whole world* has known nothing but the dead blades, which require the ten-heartbeat synchronization process. All assumptions are based on that.
*So, okay, the Stone Shamans know about the Honorblades, and have kept them secret from the rest of the world. However, we don’t know much about the intervening millennia, or what traditions surround them. When did the Shin acquire them? How much do they really know about them? Do they know what each one does? How much do they get used? Who uses them? Do they actually require some time for anyone who is not the original Herald-owner to summon? How does someone other than the Herald bond one in the first place?
@36 and 37
Fair points. The Honorblades could just be magical with out awareness there is no evidence for Honorblades being aware within the text. Though I don’t think there was any hard evidence that Shardblades where aware before this book either. Just saying, it depends on how deep Sanderson plans on falling down the sentient magical blade rabbit hole and we’re only on book two of ten. Strictly magically no sapience is possible, but so is possibility that the Honorblade is aware at some level.
Either way, whether or not the Honorblades are sapient in their own right the point is still the same for Szeth. He think the blade should take 10 heartbeats to be called to him, so the blade takes 10 heartbeats.
@12 Wetlandernw. I, too, have mixed feelings about the change Sanderson made to the conclusion of the epic battle between Kaladin and Szeth. I can easily see Kaladin following through with his sword attack aimed at severing Szeth’s soul. After all, merely ‘killing’ his sword hand doesn’t really remove his danger. Perhaps he can heal from a shard-blade (or spren blade) wound as well as Kaladin did before he became a full-fledged Radiant. He didn’t know when he struck the blow that Szeth would release the bond with the Honorblade. Alternatively, Szeth could learn to use his other hand with similar effectiveness (not the body lashing part, however). The issue that I see with the original scenario, however, was Szeth’s resurrection by Nalan using a Fabrial. If the soul is severed by the blade, how is it restored by this device? As far as we know (the Lift chapter), Regrowth operates only on the newly dead before decay sets in. Yet Szeth’s broken, eyeless, and soulless body is restored in the original version. However, the new version appears to me to be more like patchwork. Perhaps Kaladin’s new sense of honor will become more evident in SA3 and justify the change in the ending.
I take the epigram of this chapter as also referring to Hoid who can be considered by his ‘Dragon’ correspondent to be a traitor to the World-hopper group pledged to non-intervention.
@38 – If the Honorblades were sapient, we would have seen that in Szeth’s POVs.
I have trouble saying more about this chapter than, “Wow” (although I say it a LOT). So, just throwing out some random thoughts:
Am I the only one who thinks Kaladin’s theme song is “I’m On Top of the World” by Imagine Dragons?
Also, has anyone else mentioned howthe Ohm from Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind would fit in well in this world? Although the fungus and pollen work better for Liar of Partinel.
@38
Kei_rin, what do you mean by “[s]trictly magically no sapience is possible”?
I recall that large amounts of Investiture can gain sentience with time (e.g., splintered Shards).
@42
Huh, I think I missed some important words in that sentence. I’ll try to go and edit to be clearer later, but first:
The sentence is in regards to whether or not the Honorblades can have sapience/sentience. I’m trying to say that is possible in later books we’ll find out that the Honorblades (the blades that the Shardblades are patterned off of) are just a magical tool as Wetlandernw and EvilMonkey believe or it’s possible that the blades are aware. If you want to know more about that theory that the Honorblades are just magical tools ask either Wetlandernw or EvilMonkey for their thoughts.
For myself I think that Honorblades have a level of sentience but are broken due to the Heralds broken oaths. Just like Shardblades are broken due to the knights broken oaths. I’m assuming a one for one parallelity between Honorblades and Shardblades that, as far I know, is not either disproved or proved by the text thus far.
@40: I don’t believe that we would have seen it in Szeth’s POV because Szeth wouldn’t have been looking for it. The entire book one we thought that Shardblades weren’t sapient and generally the characters didn’t think about it because they thought they knew what Shardblades were. So far, unless a person was on the path to becoming a KR and bonded to a spren they couldn’t hear the screams dead blades (which was essentially is our only clue that the blades were/are living). Szeth wasn’t bonded to a spren at any point; therefore there is no reason to think he would be able to a hear blade when it screams.
Oh man, this has just caused lighting to strike in my brain. What if the screaming that Szeth hears isn’t just his madness? What if it’s the Honorblade screaming about its use and being harmed by this wrong use of the blade and the more powerful Honorblade is loud enough to make itself heard whether or not Szeth is bonded to spren or not. Szeth has no level of experience to explain this for what it is and explains it to himself as the screams of the dead victims and a decent into madness because he can’t just drop the blade. I need to think on this more.
On a side note: My assumption also assumes that the Honorblade that we see Szeth use is actually the low powered version or the blade. My personal theory is, that the Honorblades are a magnitude of power higher than Shardblades and it would follow that the broken Honorblades are a magnitude of power higher than broken Shardblades. Which is why Honorblades allow the wielder to use Investiture when they are broken but Shardblades don’t allow wielder to use Investiture when they are broken.
@41
I think of “Radioactive” by Imagine Dragons as Kaladin’s theme song myself. J
@43 – The screams are Szeth’s own delusions. Kaladin would have heard the same thing when he picked up the sword.
I could get behind the idea that Honorblades are stronger than Shardblades. They are after all copies of the original. The hierarchy could go something like this:
Dead Shardblades: Physically weaker, sluggish to summon (always 10 heartbeats), cannot change form. Still has high amounts of Investiture.
Living Shardblades: Stronger than the Dead ones. Malleability limited only to weilder’s imagination. No summoning lag time if spren forming blade is present in the Physical Realm. Higher amount of Investiture. Streamlined in use of Stormlight. Requires personal connection with blade.
Honorblades: The original template from which all Shardblades decend. More powerful but more Stormlight intensive. Does not require a personal connection to work. Speculation is that a personal connection would boost both power and efficiency but not yet known. Not malleable or sentient (as far as we know). Hidden abilities not yet verified by text.
After more reflection, I just realized the full ramifications of the changes. The climax of WoK, Dalinar sacrificing Shardblade for bridgemen, has been reversed, with Kaladin sacrificing Szeth to save the Honorblade. Kaladin has now become Amaram with Syl’s encouragement.
I think I will be sick now.
I think the biggest reason for the changes is because Sanderson did not want someone to recover from a complete soul severing with regrowth.
I don’t see how wounding Szeth and letting him fall to his death is morally different from severing his spine and letting his corpse fall. I don’t believe it makes Kaladin a more honorable person.
In fact, in the new version Kaladin has more of an opportunity to prevent Szeth’s death and chooses to get the blade instead. In the old version Kaladin had less than half a second to avert his strike once he realized Szeth wasn’t trying to block.
Is Kaladin aware that the source of Szeth’s ability is the honor blade? Does he really realize that severing the hand holding the sword would remove Szeth’s power and lead to his death?
I don’t remember for sure.
@@@@@48. Kaboom – No, Kaladin was not aware. Syl is the one who told him after the fact, and then insisted that Kal go after the Honorblade instead of saving Szeth. Syl manipulated the whole encounter. It is all starting to make sense now. Syl is now under the influence of Odium since Kaladin “killed” her and she is turning Kal to the dark side. Like I said, the whole change makes me sick. I am no longer looking forward to the next book.
Toward the end of their first fight Syl tells Kal that Szeth has no Spren and that the sword gives him his powers.
In the new version Kaladin cuts the wrist on instinct he can’t explain so it’s not even a conscious choice by Kaladin.
Sanderson talks about it like it’s this active character choice of tremendous integrity. But, Kaladin wasn’t consciously thinking about sparing Szeth in the text he just instinctively cut the wrist and chose to get the sword instead of Szeth when both were plummeting to the earth.
I don’t mind the change overall, but the author’s explanation that this makes Kaladin more honorable is baffling.
Is Kaladin Batman now?
Gak. I know I’ve missed some things I wanted to comment on… but I’ll catch what I can quickly here.
I like the idea (and I think it’s crossed my mind before, but not sure in what context) that the screams are from the sword. It’s actually possible that Kaladin wouldn’t hear them because a) he didn’t do the killing, which would take a much more self-aware sword than I’ve been assuming, but that’s okay – it’s an assumption – and b) he’s a Windrunner himself, so Jezrien’s intelligent Blade might be okay with him. It’s not implausible.
adjbaker @46 – Eww. That’s a horrible way to look at it… though it definitely has a certain parallel. There is one slight difference: the Honorblade could give any finder the full Windrunner skillset, which has very bad potential. Not necessarily worse than what Taravangian did via Szeth, probably, but still. At least Oathbringer and Helaran’s Blade are merely dead Shardblades…
FWIW, I don’t buy the “Syl is influenced by Odium” shtick, though. :D She’s just influenced by her own nature.
@many – I suspect Karsomir is correct – at least part of the impetus for change is the question of using a fabrial to restore a severed soul. Healing all manner of bodily harm, yes… but it doesn’t seem like a completely severed soul should be restorable. The matter of Kaladin’s willingness to kill… Well, I think I’d need to sit down and have a chat with Brandon in order to fully (?) understand exactly what the concern is, and what the correction accomplishes.
Oh well. We’ll have to wait and see what he does along these lines in book 3.
Posting from a phone in the middle of Yellowstone. So I’ll keep this short.
Chapter: awesome.
Changes: whatever. It’s Sanderson’s story to tell.
Shallan: too busy to bother figuring out what Adolin is blabbing about.
Kaladin’s ownage: he has always had a Connection (see secret history) with the winds. He’s speaking truth. The winds have been with him since childhood, which is what led Syl to him.
Let the force flow THROUGH you, Kal!
@49, 49 adjbaker: I am honestly unsure if you’re being serious in your assertions and are distressed…or deliberately hyperbolic to demonstrate a point. Assuming the former, however, I can’t really agree – the context of Kaladin’s choice is incredibly different from either Amaram’s or Dalinar’s. And as for Syl being a servant of Odium, that’s got to be one heck of an endgame for him to let Syl return to Kaladin and save Dalinar. I wonder what plans Odium has for Dalinar the incipient Bondsmith then?
@50, 51: I wonder if part of Kaladin’s next arc (or maybe all of it) in SA3 will be about how killing (and being willing to kill) interacts with his oath of protection. It’s one of those murky gray areas he’s struggled over a couple times but could largely ignore in Words of Radiance since he didn’t have to kill for most/all of it. So maybe the changed ending helps Sanderson to structure Kaladin’s story in book 3? Either way I suspect it’s also why Alice and a couple of other people have stated: so Sanderson could backtrack on healing someone from the soul being severed.
@46 and following:
Amaram? No, there’s no hypocrisy for personal gain, no such intent at all. No will to do the worst thing imaginable to achieve lofty goals in Kaladin, either.
Kaladin may not have wanted to kill Szeth, Syl certainly did. Not because of Odium: she had already declared what Szeth did with the Honourblade an abomination. And abominations simply have to be killed.
Also, the Honourblade had to be recovered, perhaps not at all cost, but if it fell into wrong hands it would most likely produce another abomination, someone able to use the abilities to kill indiscriminately, without checks. Which, I think, may be sufficient reason to recover the blade first, before trying to save a defeated abomination (foe).
You think Syl takes it more personally because it’s Jezrien’s Blade? The powers she can bestow on Kaladin are based on that blade so it seems to me that she’s especially prickly about anyone not bound by oaths being able to use the full powerset of a Windrunner. If it were a Lightweaver or Edgedancer Blade, or just one from any other order I’m not sure she would have been as adamant about it’s recovery.
51. Wetlandernw/54. quintus79 – My fiirst comment was straight up serious. Kaladin has become Amaram. Amaram claimed to do his deed because it was necessary for the greater good that the shardblade was in the right hands, not for personal gain. — and Kaladin believed him: Amaram thought he was doing right. Kaladin/Syl sacrificed Szeth for the same reason — to make sure the Honorblade was in the right hands for the greater good. There really is not that big of a difference – Kaladin’s father would say that choosing not to save someone when you have the power is the same as killing someone.
My second comment was pure hyperbole, I do not REALLY believe Syl is under the influence of Odium … AND YET it gives new meaning to:
1. Stormfather saying a daughter disobeys.
2. The oath that says “I will protect those I HATE.”
3. Syl saying Szeth is now in the hands of her “father” (now Odium).
4. Even Syl wanting to save the king, since he possibly had dark spren influencing him before Kaladin showed up.
Just saying, it has a perverse logic to it.
Finally posting again!!
I certainly liked this chapter, but…I’ve seen many people rank Kaladin and Szeth’s fight up there as one of their favorite scenes in a book of all time, and while I thought it was pretty cool, it’s hardly my favorite part of WoR or any other book. I’m just not an action scene person, I guess. The climax for me was Kaladin’s stand against Moash and Graves, and the return of Syl. At that point there was genuine tension as to how things would turn out and how Kaladin would respond. But that being said, Syl the shifting Shardblade is really awesome. I love the sense of working together, Syl knowing Kaladin well enough to move and change with him. I never wanted a Shardblade until this scene!
One thing that occurred to me as I was reading Alice’s post…I’ll bet that the bridgemen have such a big role here, and get to do so many awesome things, partly to highlight their beginning to be affected by Kaladin and use Stormlight. The first time through you just think they’re that badass (I love the “storming raise” line!), but the second time through I wondered how much of it was actually magical.
About the changes: I’m surprised nobody has linked yet to Brandon Sanderson’s original explanation. I will agree that the new ending feels slightly anticlimactic, a little weaker to me compared to the old one – but that’s compared to the old one. When I push Stormlight on my friends in the future, or when my children read it, their first exposure will likely be to the new ending and I think it will come off just fine. It only feels weak in comparison, IMO.
@31 FenrirMoridin: If we’re going to compare Shallan’s reaction to Adolin here with a reaction to Kaladin, perhaps a more similar scene with Kaladin would be the one in chapter 87 when he shows up in Urithiru after fighting Szeth.
She goes on to the notice the remaining slave brands, glowing eyes, etc. However, you can easily read her relief as just being that the assassin is dead, no concern about Kaladin in it. I personally don’t find it a particularly worthwhile comparison.
@43 kei_rin: About the screams Szeth hears – That’s very interesting, it hadn’t occurred to me that they might be from the Honorblade. Though there is this WoB:
Which doesn’t make it impossible that the Honorblade is causing the screams…but it does imply that’s not the case.
@47 Karsomir: In the post I linked, Sanderson specifically says that he’s sorry about not having the full Shardblade healing in the new ending. (If I’m reading that somewhat confusing sentence right…) But I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some other secret reason that he needed to change it.
Also, about Kaladin sparing Szeth only by instinct – perhaps the point is that Kaladin has become an honorable enough person that he’d do the honorable thing by instinct. Is it really morally neutral if somebody does the right thing just “by instinct”? That would seem to indicate to me that they’ve consciously made decisions that made them moral people, such that they can act morally without thinking. (BTW, I’m not making any judgments about whether it was actually “more honorable” for Kaladin not to kill Szeth – just saying that I don’t think it can’t be honorable simply because it was instinctual.)
@56 adjbaker (and previous comments): I don’t think Kaladin went after Szeth for the Honorblade. He was trying to stop an assassin, and then happened to be able to retrieve his Blade in the process. Amaram’s main goal was getting the Shardblade, and to do it he was slaughtering innocents, not a mass murderer. What’s making you think that Kaladin’s primary goal was to get the Honorblade?
I’m also somewhat confused by your saying Syl made Kaladin pursue the Honorblade rather than “saving Szeth”. When was Kaladin ever going to save Szeth? He wanted to kill him right from the start.
As for Syl and Odium – that is a great crazy theory.
I really don’t like the new ending at all. Because in the first ending Kaladin completely expected Szeth to parry and did’nt mean to kill him. Also Nalan’s part is much more impressive of Szeth was healed from having his soul severed from his body, instead of simply splatting into the plateau.
Great post as usual, Alice !!!
57. sheesania – great post. Thanks for including the info on the screams Szeth hears.
I agree with you on the points you made about why Sanderson made the changes. I think it really was just because he thought it would be better if Kaladin “hesitated” about killing Szeth, and better if Szeth voluntarily released the Honorblade bond. All other consequences of the changes were unintended.
As far as Kaladin not saving Szeth, here is the new version:
The glow fled the assassin’s form. All his Stormlight vanished in a puff, all Lashings banished.
Szeth started to fall.
Get that sword! Syl sent to Kaladin, a mental shout. Grab it.
“The assassin!”
He has released the bond. He’s nothing without that sword! It must not be lost! Kaladin dove after the Blade, passing Szeth, who tumbled through the air like a rag doll, buffeted by winds toward the stormwall.
Clearly, after choosing not to kill Szeth, but only cut off his hand, Kaladin/Syl now choose to let Szeth die in the storm in order to save the sword. I mean they pass Szeth on the way down tumbling like a rag doll. It is just so incredibly wrong and out of character. It leaves me dumbfounded,or at least willing to go to crazy theories trying to justify it.
It also bothered me that Sanderson invokes the Hobbit when trying to justify the change. This change is NOTHING like the changes made to Gollum and Bilbo’s interactions. Those were made 13 years after publication to bring the book inline with the LOTR. And what is really cool, is the old version was still “canon”, because it became a version of the story that Bilbo lied about and initially published. That is how and why to make a significant change to a published work. Not just make a change because he thought it was little more in character, or liked it more, or whatever.
A little conflicted on the Change, yeah. Does it make my hardcover more valuable? (No, it does not. If it has any of what Wit might call the value of timeliness, it’s in the fact that it was signed and numbered.)
I suppose it’s a bit premature to think of Sanderson going down the Whitman path, endlessly revising Leaves of Grass. I hope so.
The more I think about it, the more I think the Change is less about Kaladin and more about Szeth.
Kaladin knew it was a fight to the death. In the original, Szeth had closed his eyes at the last second, but he still had his Blade in hand. You can’t really call that killing a noncombatant or whatever.
But Szeth — originally, Szeth was giving up in the middle of a fight — but now he’s overtly committing suicide. This is a thing he has wanted to do for a long time, but it violates the religious commitment symbolized by his Oathstone. That’s kinda huge. One could argue whether this is a real distinction, but I say it is. Submitting to the will of Kaladin to kill him is not at all the same thing as submitting to physics. He must know that even if Kaladin stays his hand, there’s no possible way to survive falling hundreds of feet onto rocky terrain in a highstorm, with no Stormlight to fortify his constitution. (Not unless Kaladin pulls a Spider-Man, or Szeth happens to land in a handy passing manure wagon, or some nearby greatshell decides to send a spren to cushion his fall….)
I guess the other possibility is that he didn’t quite think it all the way through — forgetting that by giving up his Blade he would also give up his ability to fly. But that flies in the face of modern fantasy tropes. If someone makes that kind of miscalculation in a tense situation, the author always explicitly draws attention to it. That it wasn’t pointed out basically proves that he did it on purpose.
My first read, I thought the timing was a bit convenient — Szeth decides to unbind pretty much the exact moment his sword hand is cut off. But now I see that giving up the Blade was part of the same act of suicide that gave Kaladin the opening in the first place.
Should a Windrunner feel the obligation to prevent a suicide attempt, or should he respect their will to die? (Continue to) discuss.
@57 sheesania: I actually have a couple theories about that – the one that I think is most important I’ll leave until we get to the last bit in the reread, as it deals with all our new KRs interactions. But yeah, I always thought those two scenes weren’t a great comparison either, Shallan is in a much calmer environment where she can put up her usual walls.
@59 adjbaker: So, this idea that Kaladin is acting out of character by ignoring Szeth falling…I have to disagree. Now, if Kaladin picked the Honorblade over saving Szeth’s life in a calm room, with a couple hours to think it over? That could be out of character. But let’s look at what happens:
Kaladin fights against Szeth who becomes increasingly more bonkers as the fight goes.
Kaladin makes a strike at Szeth that he expects him to block, but he doesn’t.
Kaladin, on instinct, changes his attack so it’s different, cutting through Szeth’s hand.
Szeth suddenly stops glowing/being obviously magical, and plummets separately from the Terrible Weapon Kaladin has seen him use.
Right after this moment, Kaladin is told by his magical soul-partner who grants him abilities that he needs to retrieve said Terrible Weapon.
Kaladin asks about the assassin.
Said magical soul-partner who Kaladin just got back after he thought she was dead, murdered by his actions, tells him it’s much more important to retrieve the Terrible Weapon. Now, to put Syl’s position in mind, let’s remember that she is still only at 3/5 oaths from Kaladin, so her memory of things isn’t at its best still most likely. Furthermore, spren seem subject to at least several rather arcane and obtuse restrictions we don’t know about (at least not yet) – after all, Ishar apparently forced a system on them which led to the KR orders as we know them. It’s possible Syl was compelled to save the Honorblade by an ancient accord with Tanavast. (shrugs) But to put it in perspective, after retrieving the blade Syl says Szeth was *likely* claimed by the Stormfather. So yeah, she still doesn’t even know that a fall from that height would be a guaranteed death for a regular human.
So both Kaladin and Syl are under pretty extreme circumstances to be making any kind of judgment, but they can’t exactly refuse to make a decision, as they’re working within seconds. So they err on the side of getting the horrible weapon that was just used over the past couple of months to plunge the world into chaos, murder close friends (because even if we the reader don’t care about all the bit Bridge 4 members, Kaladin definitely does), and possibly imperil the only chance they have to save the world from a Desolation. Instead of trying to save an assassin who effectively attempted suicide, one who seemed mentally broken by the end.
61. FenrirMoridin – You talk a pretty good case, you should be a lawyer. I think you might get Syl and Kaladin off, because it is not beyond a reasonable doubt, that they absolutely had to know Szeth would get killed. Who knows, the Stormfather might save him, or the other windsprens, or the wind just happen to slow his fall so that he survives.
However, if you just take the evidence at face value and try not to make excuses, both Syl and Kaladin know that Szeth is going to die and choose the sword over Szeth. Kaladin even tells everyone else that Szeth is dead. He did not say, “Well I lost him in the storm without his powers, so he could have survived.”
@@@@@60. Wortmauer – “Should a Windrunner feel the obligation to prevent a suicide attempt, or should he respect their will to die?”
Absolutely, a Windrunner should try to prevent a suicide. Journey before destination and all that. Once they tried to save the person, and the person still insisted, that might be a different question.
Syl/Kaladin did not even try to save Szeth, the only thought was the sword. Kaladin definitely knew Szeth had given up trying to fight or hold his power, but I see that as totally different than knowing that Szeth was insisting on dying. Even from Szeth’s point of view, I think his main thought was to stop trying to kill, to reject the power he used to kill.
Edit: IMO suicide is always about ending the pain, whether it is memories, emotional pain, or physical pain. The person just wants it to stop and the only “hope” they see is death. In order to help someone who wants to commit suicide, you have to easy the pain or give them another “hope” or goal, something else to live for.
And another thing: I do like The Change in that it greatly lessens the whiplash/annoyance of Yet Another Character Resurrection. We never see a dead body, and after all, Kal, Shal, and Rysn (and probably Eshonai) somehow survived unsurvivable falls. Even if canonically Szeth does in fact die, it’s easy to tell ourselves that, as it happens, our friend here is only mostly dead. Whereas with the original text — Shardblade through the spine, smoke pouring out around the eyelids — he was clearly D-E-D dead.
@62 adjbaker: You seem like you’d make a good prosecutor yourself, hammering home the same story of events regardless of what the defense says. Let’s keep lawyering off then. ;P
As for Kaladin telling everyone else that Szeth is dead, that is in fact not the case: to the members of Bridge 4 he mentions he’s close enough to having been killed when questioned about the assassin, and when Dalinar asks in public he applies affirmatively.
So, why is this important?
Well for one thing, regardless of Szeth the person being alive, the Assassin in White is dead – the Honorblade has been retrieved after all, and even ignoring that, it was clear Szeth was done with being an assassin (now, someone seeking bloody vengeance justice…well we’ll see).
Second, Kaladin claiming Szeth is dead could be him callously admitting that he let the assassin drop to his death to retrieve the weapon…or, perhaps, it’s Kaladin knowing they’re safe from the assassin so even if he survived they don’t need to worry about that.
I don’t even think of it this way, but one could even read this as Kaladin giving Szeth a second chance: if Szeth did survive, somehow, this way he’s free to try to find some peace as being not Truthless.
Do I think that’s likely?
Nah, it’s much more likely Kaladin just doesn’t want to give them all the details so they might worry when the threat of the assassin is taken care of.
Which I dunno, seems more like taking what Kaladin and Syl did at face value than ascribing their actions to horrendously out of character betrayals of Honor. YMMV.
@60, 64 Wortmauer: I suppose it matters on whether or not saving them from themselves in this case is considered as protecting – after all, Oath 2 involved protecting those who cannot protect themselves. Which someone committing suicide could be argued is failing to protect themselves from…their selves. But I do agree with adjbaker above (which is surprising in this chapter’s comments, we seem very opposed in general otherwise lol) that it would probably change on their awareness of them committing suicide/seeing them insist on it. But that’s purely from a protection standpoint – as was pointed out splendidly last chapter’s comments, Windrunners also have the ideal of leadership, which might also muddy the waters further (it is after all often the role of a leader to be a source of inspiration which could involve helping someone overcome suicidal thoughts).
Oh and agreed about that last part where not seeing the dead body makes Szeth’s survival more palatable. Not that I minded him surviving in either edition, but it probably makes the book overall stronger that Szeth’s survival is a little bit less miraculous before the major ending reveal of a certain Elsecaller surviving.
With the changes this section feels a little two minded.
At the end of the last chapter we have Kal claiming Shin’s life. And then in this chapter we have this:
“The Knights Radiant,” Szeth screamed, “cannot have returned.”
“They have,” Kaladin said, yanking his spear back. “And they’re going to kill you.”
But after the fight he says:
“I didn’t kill him,” Kaladin said.
“Did you want to?”
“No,” Kaladin said, surprised that it was the truth. “But I should have anyway.”
Also, I’m of the opinion that you can’t claim that you didn’t kill someone when you allowed them to fall to their doom.
@@@@@66. Bellaberry – definitely agree that the changes feel two-minded. I think it goes: I claim your life, kill him, kill him, don’t kill him, let him die, I didn’t kill him, Good you didn’t kill him, I should have killed him, he is dead.
@@@@@65. FenrirMoridin – When I first read the changes, I REALLY didn’t like them or the reasons Sanderson gave for making them. But I sort of ignored them, because on my own re-reads I had the old version. I thought maybe with this re-read and getting other people’s opinion, that I would come to accept them more, or at least understand better the reasons.
Unfortunately, that has not been the case, and with further analysis, I now detest the changes even more. Still, I feel better for having ranted. Thanks for listening and responding with well thought out excuses. I will try to hold on to one of the excuses, so that my blood pressure doesn’t rise every time I think about the changes.
@67 adjbaker- lol, that’s a great summary.
@67 adjbaker: Heh, I understand. I don’t have a problem with the changes here but I’ve experienced that ranting level of rage before over similar changes in other series. I’m glad I was able to help.
As an aside, thinking over Kaladin and Syl’s dialogue, sometimes when she discusses the Stormfather it reminds me of how a girl would discuss a stern father to a boyfriend. XD
After all she has to disobey the Stormfather to be Kaladin, who is a bad boy breaking oaths that will put her in danger.
(shrugs) It amuses me to think of their relationship that way for some sequences is all.
Also it gives me the mental image of the Stormfather with a giant floating cloud shotgun, angrily contemplating Kaladin.
@@@@@ 69
LOL. That is so hilarious. But kidding aside, those thoughts are disturbing in some level. Because if Syl is Kaladin’s girlfriend, then Pattern is Shallan’s boyfriend. But wait, Pattern is asexual. LOL Goodness gracious, So, what kind of relationship do they have? And with Adolin, then we have another love triangle. LOL
Maybe Syl can turn into a regular sized Julia Roberts so she can give Kaladin a kiss…
@@@@@ 69
Your aside rocks–ROFL.
Re: The Change
Like adjbaker, I was hoping to better understand and accept the change after reading some discussion here (post-initial WTF reaction on my part). There’s no doubt that I have a better grasp of the nuances of the situation–both versions–now, but I can’t say I accept the change any more than I did previously. While the change may have been necessary for Realmatic Theory to be structured the way BWS desires later in this series and perhaps in other Cosmere novels, it can be interpreted as leaving just as many holes in a Windrunner’s moral event horizon decision process as the original version. Brandon clearly struggled with this scene, as per his comments, but it seems as if my favorite speculative fiction author only dug the original black hole a little deeper with the change. I am left unsatisfied. YMMV, of course. And…time will tell.
Trigger warning: the following post contains philosophical speculation and is a wall-o-text. Anyone uncomfortable with such, can repair to the Storm Cellar for s’mores to be made over the fire I started in the middle of the floor.
TL:DR – Blah, Blah, Blah, Creative or productive tensions in the “divine attributes” of the Knights Radiant.
To chime in a bit late – I wasn’t too bothered by the fact that Brandon made changes (however, I have also not done a re-read with the full changes in place, and as such have not contemplated too deeply what those changes where and meant). Much thanks to everyone, particular Adjbaker, for bringing up good points and helping me see things from different perspectives.
Wanted to share some thoughts that I’ve had over the weekend that might be pertinent.
While I agree with those above that see a major factor in the revisions being the whole bring-Szeth-back-from-the-dead is easier/less complicated and problematic if he has not been killed via Shardblade, I also have the thought that this is also very pertinent to where Brandon will be taking Kaladin (and potentially other KRs) in the next few books. Meaning, it seems clear that 1) his character growth is not going to be at an end, and 2) his further character growth will need to be accomplished from where he stands now (i.e. if Brandon has him lose his powers and go all mopey again because of it, most of his readership will cry foul and riot).
So, looking at his neglecting to save/protect a falling human in favor of a magical sword may pre-figure the development that he will have to undergo. Specifically, in my mind this comes out as Kaladin being faced with very difficult decisions, for which there is no easy answer. For this chapter, of course, he has his handy Moral Guide (Syl) telling him what the right decision is, but in the future, as Syl becomes much more complex and capable of higher thought, the answers might not be so cut and dry. Indeed, I could easily see the direction of Kaladin’s growth in growing beyond what Syl will do for him directly, to the point that maybe she points the way with a general principle and Kaladin must figure out how to apply it in his situation.
Particularly I have thought about this in terms of the philosophical underpinnings and characteristics of being a Windrunner. The coppermind wiki notes (sorry, I don’t have the time to look this up in book, if someone does remember where the conversation occurs and can pull something pertinent, either for or against my points here, please do!) that Syl says to Kaladin that “Laws don’t matter. What’s right matters.” This points me to think that the Windrunner philosophy of protection is a lot less rigid than we might have assumed to this point (logically so, because the 2nd and 3rd ideals we have seen Kaladin oathing are so heavily weighted toward it). Thus, Kaladin choosing what is right (going after the sword) and not what is protecting (grabbing Szeth) may be indicative that more is going on (or will be) with the under-girding moral philosophy of the Order of Windrunners.
This combined with the notion/speculation that someone put forward last week (?) of the theory that the next 2 oaths Kaladin swears may be more applicable to Leadership than protection (which I think is a sound speculation based in Brandon’s penchant for rational and well-constructed magic systems), as the second “divine attribute” causes me to think that the character development of Kaladin will likely continue to involve the tension that is inherent between these two poles – where leadership will require him to recognize that sometimes decisions will need to be made that will result in him not being able to protect individuals at the expense of protecting larger bodies/entities. Thus, it will also most likely revolve around him seeing his experience with Tien in another light (not that he will condone what Tien’s leader did by placing him in the front lines as bait), recognizing that as a leader he is going to need to send people into situations where he cannot protect them, and he may lose those he feels honor bound to protect. (This, of course, is common within leadership roles in militaristic organizations facing armed conflict, and it would be completely ludicrous to not see Kaladin have to deal with this – luckily, he does have Dalinar and Adolin to help him deal with this).
There is certainly a tension between these two that leads me to think that Brandon will be taking Kaladin to places where protection, while important, will be tempered by leadership and leadership will be tempered by the ideals of protection. One without the other will not do (Lin Davar was certainly “protecting” Shallan, but we can all agree that it wasn’t good and he wasn’t being a good leader, right?), all within the greater framework of the first ideal.
This type of tension between the 2 “divine attributes” of the order (with the necessary caveat that these are in-world notions bounded by Vorinist ideas and teachings) can be seen or hypothesized for many of the other orders as well, at least on a theoretical level based on the terms given. Each of them, at first blush, may seem to be naturally complementary, but it doesn’t take too much thinking to come to see a point where there could be tensions arising from their combination. This would indicate that the philosophical outlooks of the characters that fall into those orders should not be viewed as simplistic or overly determined by one characteristic – i.e. Syl’s coaching Kaladin to ignore Szeth but get the sword may not in some way be a betrayal of his character and KR Order ideals, insofar as it may simply be a step toward where the next 2 ideals will take him – a more robust, nuanced, and complex morality and compass that better informs and is more applicable in the messiness that is a Desolation. Now, of course, this all butts up very quickly against “greater good” utilitarian philosophical outlooks, which Brandon is also very clearly playing with (contrasting with Sons of Honor, etc). But again, the overall imposed framework of the first ideal seems to be a check against any organic development in that direction among the KRs. (If Peter or anyone from Brandon Co. is reading, it would be cool to see Kaladin and Syl talk over why letting Szeth fall and getting the sword was the “right” thing, to show that Kaladin is growing or at least trying to understand…)
Now, we certainly have also seen this type of contradictory or complementary tension in “Divine Attributes” with regard to Shallan – with the contrast of her needing to be honest with herself, while also creatively crafting lies to bring out the best in others (which also may be a form of honesty?). Her next steps may end up involving reversals, with her need to be more honest with others, while further internalizing the creative lies (i.e. her other personas) to the point that they can also honestly be seen as a part of her, and not just a mask (something we may already have seen hints of). The divine attributes designated for the other orders can be viewed as potentially filled with a productive tension (or paradox?) as well – Chach: Brave/Obedient; Palah: Learned/Giving, Ishar: Pious/Guiding, etc. (These last two may be of particular interest to speculate on with regard to Renarin and Dalinar respectively – we can already see the tension in practice between being pious and guiding others with Dalinar’s adoption of the Alethi War Codes, and forcing Elhokar and the others to react to them; or the tension for Renarin in being given esoteric knowledge (learning) and how to gift that to others in appropriate ways.) I’m sure there are more surprises waiting in this regard as new developments force these tensions to the fore in the development of our characters.
Based in these thoughts – it would be great to see a conversation between Syl and Kaladin about what it means to “do the right” and how that is determined, especially based in the potential tension between leading and protecting.
@73 Wow, great reasoning. Your idea is intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
73. sillyslovene – Really great comments on the conflict between Protecting and Leadership. I definitely agree that Kaladin has a lot more to learn and that it will be a focus. Dalinar is a great example of the tough decisions/attitude. He does not let the death of his soldier’s or even an incredibly bad mistake such as trusting Sadeas keep him from continuing to leading and trying his best. Another great example is allowing Kaladin to try to save his family, instead of using him to notify/help whole kingdoms. He understands that you can only use what people are willing to give, even if it would be best for the greater good.
However, I disagree with this comment: “Syl’s coaching Kaladin to ignore Szeth but get the sword may not in some way be a betrayal of his character and KR Order ideals, insofar as it may simply be a step toward where the next 2 ideals will take him”
This is not an example of a conflict between Leadership and Protection. It is about doing what is right over some perceived gain and about valuing life as priceless. It is similar to deciding whether or not to assassinate the king for the good of the kingdom. Or Kaladin’s father’s decision to steal spheres in order to provide Kaladin with an education. Or Kaladin’s father’s decision to save Roshone instead of letting him die or cutting an artery. Or Amaram deciding to kill Kaladin’s men for the Shardblade. Or Dalinar deciding to give his shardblade up for the bridgemen. Or Shallan deciding to risk her life to help save the other caravan. Or Taravangian killing people to get death rattles.
It does not matter if the Honorblade is one of the 10 seals that keeps Odium imprisoned and from wreaking havoc on the whole universe, the right decision in that moment is to value Szeth’s life over some theoretical gain. It is about being humble enough to know that we do not know or control the future. We can only do what is right in the moment and trust that the creator/fate is responsible for making it all come out right in the end.
adjbaker @75. Based on your comments above, for you, the “right decision” is for Kaladin to try to save Szeth rather than reach for the sword. For others, however (including myself) it would not be the right decision. I believe that some people are beyond saving. They are either so evil or what they have done is so far beyond redemption that they do not deserve saving. IMO, Szeth has reached that point.
We do not know if Kaladin reached that conclusion about Szeth. (Although his statement that he would kill Szeth seems to imply that he has.) Further, there is the possibility that Szeth did not want to be saved. When Nan resurrected Szeth, Szeth was initially disappointed as all he wanted was to die. If somebody does not want to be saved or helped, is it “right” for another person to save or help that first person? IMO, in order to be saved or helped, the one who needs saving or help must want it. Otherwise, any efforts to save or help that person will be for naught.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
76. AndrewHB – I understand that there are those who believe that Szeth deserved to die and was beyond saving. Heck, I believe that Szeth deserved to die. That does not mean that it is consistent with the Windrunner Ideals.
But maybe I am totally wrong about Windrunner ideals. Maybe Syl would have been fine with assassinating the king, if Kaladin believed it was right and Kaladin had not promised to protect the king. Maybe she would be fine with killing Amaram, if Kaladin was not doing it out of revenge/rage, but instead a sense of justice and protection. Maybe Kaladin will become an assassin who goes around killing the enemy leaders, but avoiding collateral damage, because he believes that it is right/necessary and will protect those who cannot protect themselves. Maybe if they had been on the ground, after disarming a helpless Szeth, Kaladin would have announced that Szeth deserved death and THEN cut through his spine and killed him. Maybe it is fine to kill those you HATE, as long as it is right.
I guess we will have to RAFO.
@77
I honestly believe that in another situation Syl would have been okay with killing Elhokar. From the start of the whole plot the kill the king Kaladin was never able to convince himself that it was the right thing to do and IMO Syl is just an external foil for what Kaladin already knows about what is right and what isn’t. Even if Kaladin himself can articulate or even rationalize why something is right or wrong. I think Syl’s value of right and wrong comes from how Kaladin feels about the situation not from a outside source.
I feel like this most true in the case of when Kaladin is debating with Syl over whether it’s okay to kill Parshendi in battle. On a deeper level knows that in battle it’s right to kill your enemy in order to protect yourself, those fighting with you and those who you need to protect by fighting. But that same logic is true for the enemy that you are fighting. Kaladin has a hard time articulating why this the case and it bothers him. It doesn’t go against the Windrunner ideals but he can’t explain why it doesn’t.
In the case of fighting Szeth and letting him die: Szeth is a mad dog by this point in the story and he needed to die. The fact that Szeth knew he needed to die at the end accepted it and severed his bond with the Honorblade willingly in the middle of a Storm (which assures his death) doesn’t change that for me. (That probably makes me sound heartless but there you have it.) Killing him outright would have been a better death than letting the Storm take him but dead is dead. As for choosing the sword over Szeth, Szeth never was someone Kaladin had to protect, in fact he was Kaladin’s enemy. With in the short time that Kaladin has make a choice he no bases to assume that isn’t true anymore, it makes sense to me to secure the deadly weapon first and then figure out what do next.
My issue with Szeth’s death is more about the fact that he returned from the dead later, it did seem like like there was too much of people coming back from dead at the end of this book and it made me worry but I’m going to trust Sanderson on his story and go with it. Also Szeth now has Nightblood and Nightblood is one of my favorite swords/characters.
Hm,
Seems like there will be much internal conflict concerning the KR. I tend to focus on the conflicts between orders and how each order would act in a given situation i.e. how Kaladin would deal with an assassination attempt with respect to his Oaths vs how Shallan would deal with one with respect to her Truths. But thinking about how certain actions can cause conflict within the same person, one with a spirit guide that may or may not agree with them, a spirit guide who is also the arbiter of their power? You know how much more impossible that makes Dalinar’s job as the lone Bondsmith?
Some of the recent comments about Kaladin’s having to learn that he can’t protect everyone reminded me of the following:
One addition to the the “How to update your Kindle copy of WoR”:
I had the old version but wasn’t showing an update was available in my account. I got in touch with Amazon Customer Service and they were able to tweak my account so that the update happened. So if you have the old version and don’t see the update, it is available and Customer Service can help. (As a side effect, I discovered that ~20 other of my books had non-displayed updates as well. I had been wondering if they ever did anything about the (literally) hundreds of errors I reported in the Wheel of Time books. I guess I’ll just have to re-read WoT to find out!)
@73 sillyslovene: Superb comment, I often write walls of text myself but never with that clarity nor craftsmanship. Indeed you touched on a part of Kaladin’s conflict in the changes that I wanted to mention but couldn’t properly formulate a cohesive comment on. Bravo!
Leadership being the crux of Kaladin’s conflict for the next couple of books makes a lot of sense, and I think enough has been stated on it that anything I add would be superfluous – I’ll just note that @80 Nazrax made a good point of Teft’s statement to Kaladin on accepting he can’t protect everyone, which is an echo of his father telling Kaladin he needs to learn how to let go. Considering Kaladin’s character I wouldn’t be surprised if this forms the backbone of his conflict for the fourth or even the fifth oath – it’s his oldest internal character conflict after all, and one he will need to at least address.
P.S. Cosmere related, I won’t be getting it for a bit but yay for the first graphic novel of White Sand being released. I kind of forgot it was coming out at the tail-end of June until Sanderson tweeted about it earlier! >.<
Adjbaker@75
I didn’t want to call you out specifically on some of your thought process before, but this is where something comes up that may be causing some of the major issues with the change: you seem to have conflated some very specific moral issues (in RL at the least) and mapped them onto the moral philosophy of the Windrunners and assumed that they are the same; in essence, reading them onto the text.
As far as I can tell, based on the first Ideal, and the subsequent Ideals that Kaladin has oathed, there is no mention of “valuing life as priceless.”* A claim could be made that this is implicit in the idea of protection, but I think the case can be made that it is not the prime moral imperative driving the idea of protection. This seems to be a pillar of your moral philosophy (one which, incidentally, I am very prone to agree with in RL with perhaps certain limits and contextual caveats appended) which does not match with the moral pillars under-girding Kaladin’s worldview and Radianthood. Now, we may declare that he picks some of this up from his father, but remember – Kaladin very specifically rejects a major portion of this, consciously in his declaration that killing to protect another is okay, and by voluntarily joining the army. As far as developing his knighthood – the moral ambiguities that Kaladin faces are nearly always about protection (to this point, my point earlier is that this might not be the case totally going forward, as additional aspects will be added to his moral decision making process), they are never about whether or not it is wrong to kill/take a life or whether the results of his decision will involve death (he is perfectly willing to kill or take life, as long as he can be sure that in so doing he is not crossing his moral line based around concepts of defense/offense).
Likewise, I am postulating (or at least putting out for discussion) the possibility that what made the action about not saving Szeth “right” (based in Syl’s calculations of what is right) is the very fact that, while, yes, Kaladin and other may view in the abstract saving him as laudable, etc, the moral imperatives upholding their viewpoint and notion of honor are protection and elements of leadership – thus, their moral calculus leads to the conclusion that protection of others via controlling the sword is more important than the death of one man.**
Now, you are correct that this may in some ways (or at least can be seen to) butt up against the first ideal, and may skirt dangerously close to “greater good” ideologies/philosophies, illustrating how “strait and narrow” the moral footpath is that Kaladin (and perhaps others – think Jasnah? There’s probably a huge debate there…) are being forced to tread. And thus, may come very close to being out of character or at least rubbing the wrong way and hinting at a decision that may not jive with the development that has occurred.
This is, of course, you again seemingly reading onto the text with your own moral reasoning, (which, I might note, is completely fine as an interpretive strategy. I have no problem with it, as long as it is made clear that such is being done and it is acknowledged as such). On which, if we were discussing RL and elements of faith, relationship to deity, etc, I would be/am very sympathetic to such reasoning. But it does not seem to jive within the moral universe of the characters and how they are making their decisions, and comes off a bit as an interesting form of presentism (projecting your own moral context, not back into the past, but onto a fictional universe).
However, it should be pointed out that we are discussing a fictional world in which 1) the creator (or at least one of them, Honor) is dead (leaving aside aspects of Roshar predating Honor/Cultivation), and subsequently cannot make everything come out right in the end, and 2) Syl, a piece of that divinity or as close as one could get to the creator (sans speaking to Cultivation herself), has explicitly commanded Kaladin to do such an action as right. So, is there an argument that Syl, as a piece of the creator/divinity, is trying to make it “come out right in the end” by commanding Kaladin after the sword rather than Szeth? (only slightly tongue in cheek here…)
As we can all see, there are many ways to view this moral dilemma. I am just trying to figure out how Syl and Kaladin are accomplishing their moral calculus and making their decisions. I hope it doesn’t feel like I’m coming down hard (If anything does seem that way, I apologize, and will try to be better in the future). Incidentally, while AndrewHB@76 comes up with another perspective of how the decision Kaladin made can be “right” which coincides with the Kaladin/Syl action, I think it would be stronger to say that the deciding factor for them would need to be protection of the community – i.e. Szeth needs to be put down, not because he is past saving, but because he is too dangerous to others (or himself?) to let live.
If anyone can come up with some additional data points on the pricelessness of life and hierarchies of morality related to gain in KR (particularly Windrunner) thought, I am more than willing to entertain them. Again, it has been a while since my last re-read, and I am certain that I am forgetting/misremembering some things…
*the closest we get to that notion, as far as I can recall, would be Dalinar trading a “priceless” sword for “priceless” lives – but remember that is astounding to Kaladin – it does not enter into his moral calculus more generally. An argument can also be made from the “Life before Death” segment of the first ideal – but the question is whether that is a chronological imperative (live your life/take seriously/give it your all where you are now rather than worry about where things will end up) or a moral imperative (all life is sacrosanct and the choice should be to preserve life rather than kill). Given the other portions of the ideal (Journey before Destination, and Strength before Weakness), I am inclined to see the former as the stronger interpretation.
** Incidentally, the idea that it is morally acceptable for one man to perish rather than a nation/people to be collectively adversely influenced to a significant point (what that point is being, of course, contextually driven) is a RL philosophical outlook that has had huge ramifications in the past (and in Star Trek!).
@82 – Thanks FenrirMoridin!
No more walls of text for this week…I promise. (Thought that of course won’t hold in the future…) – last note – holy crap I use parentheses a lot…(!)
I just want to say, it’s hard to believe everyone here is real! I’m a newbie, just read WoK in November and WoR in December. Since then I’ve been reading all of the reread content, but I only just noticed that the dates were catching up to me.
Thanks so much for all the insights and quality discussion!
And recently, I’ve been speed-reading through WoK again looking for interesting bits that I didn’t know what to do with before, like Dalinar getting whispers of the First Ideal during plateau runs. Fascinating to see it with new eyes!
Pat.
Re: the changes.
Han shot first. That will be all.
patthemaniac @84 – Welcome! With a name like that, you fit right in here! :)
@83. sillyslovene – Thanks for your wall of text I appreciate your feedback and have definitely enjoyed your comments. My response will be a wall of text also as I respond to some of your comments.
“I hope it doesn’t feel like I’m coming down hard” – Definitely not, I have a thick skin and love debate. I know that I often come across as too blunt, but I hope I do not come across too roughly or rudely.
“RL” – of course I bring real life thoughts/morals/experiences to the discussion, but I maintain that all my “claims” can be supported (NOT proven) by the text. I do understand that others can/will interpret differently.
“the moral ambiguities that Kaladin faces … are never about whether or not it is wrong to kill/take a life” – Are we reading the same books? Just a few of many examples: Is it possible to “Kill in order to protect”? Why is it painful for Syl when others are killed, even though she has helped Kaladin do it? Why does Kaladin no longer want to kill the Parshmen?
“valuing life as priceless” – It is the concept that counts, not the exact semantics. Of course I assume that the 2nd and 3rd Ideals of the Windrunners are referring to protecting people/life. I am not sure you articulated another meaning clearly that is supported by the text. You try to make a case that there may be some sort of theoretical conflict between Protecting and Leadership, but then use the argument that choosing the sword over Szeth is because “..protection of others via controlling the sword is more important than the death of one man.” First, this argument is proving my point that it is about “valuing life”. Second, this is not a Leadership conflict, but a Protecting one versus Protecting many argument. I find this particularly weak, because it is potentially saving many in the future versus actually saving one now. I find it repugnant because it is the argument Amaram uses to kill Kaladin’s men, and the justification of many others such as Taravangian. It is also the type of argument used to excuse MANY types of actions. I must lie/cheat/steal/kill because I know something bad will happen in the future if I don’t. I do not believe the text supports the idea that Syl knows the future.
“We can only do what is right in the moment and trust that the creator/fate is responsible for making it all come out right in the end.” – I believe that the idea of an overall “creator/fate” is supported implicitly in all the Cosmere novels. The whole idea of 16 splinters of an original one, the idea of prophesy, the idea of seeing the future support this idea. This is particularly evident in the Mistborn series. “We can only do what is right in the moment” is self evident, though it is sometimes hard to accept. Kaladin has some trouble with this. How many times has he said, “I SHOULD have been able to save…”? “Trust … it will come out right in the end.” – again, I believe an overall theme in the Cosmere novels. Evidenced particularly in Dalinar, as he trusts his visions, trusts in doing what is right even if “God” is dead. He leads armies to the center of the shattered plains based on that belief.
Again, thank you for your comments/thoughts. I do use them to modify/sharpen my own ideas.
If I have the choice between letting Gary Ridgway fall to his death and confiscating a weapon of incredible/terrible potency, I know what choice I’m going to be making. Keep in mind that Syl may have an inkling of what is coming, and that she may believe (or at least perceive subconsciously) that the correct use of the Honorblades will be vital in the struggle against Odium.
There is a very clear and distinct difference between saving an honorblade from being lost at the cost of allowing an evil person (who will probably be executed shortly after saving him) to fall to his death, and murdering your own loyal soldiers in order to steal a Shardblade that rightfully belongs to someone else in order to maintain your reputation for honesty. Drawing a strong correlation between those two actions is a logical leap of epic proportions.
I just think many of us are overthinking these changes. I was very surprised/confused on my second read, having read the original the first time through and recognizing the differences on my 2nd read, having never heard about the changes prior to that. In the end, I trust that Brandon knows where he’s taking the story, and that the changes are something he needs to be able to tell the story he wants to tell. He is, after all, rather good at telling stories.
@87 –
Good responses.
On moral ambiguities – good rebuttal and evidences. I will admit I overstated the case – but I will push back and say that, particularly in the last two, Kaladin and Syl are not refusing to ever kill – the pain and the issue seems to be whether or not the killing is occurring within the confines of their morality of protection. They are refusing to kill in an offensive manner that conflicts with their stated prime moral imperative – it is not necessarily the death itself that is the issue. Like you say, the killing does cause pain (I am not disputing that), their moral quandary though is about when killing/taking life is appropriate or not. Remember, I am responding to your initial claim and issue that Kaladin and Syl allowing Szeth to fall to his death somehow stands as against his oaths to protect and turns Kaladin into Amaram. The protection imperative seems to be driven more by protecting those who cannot protect themselves, rather than a blanket statement of the need to preserve all life. If it was the latter, then we would expect that Syl would never be capable of becoming a weapon that would take life, and Kaladin would have mastered non-lethal fighting techniques rather that a pointy stick meant to stab people to death.
On protection vs leadership – Leadership is, in some ways, about making decisions (certainly it is about more than that also) – this is a point when he must make a decision that is a significant grey area: is it more right to protect the one or the many? How do you decide? What qualifies as weighty in the context of specific situations? How does the context of those situations matter? Kaladin and Syl make the decision here that is mostly individual, but the leadership angle is how will the decision be made when there are others at stake? My postulated notion is that this is a foreshadowing of the decisions and growth that Kaladin will be faced with in the future, not that this decision here is a conflict between leadership and protection – rather that it foreshadows such conflicts.
You, of course, have your opinions, but I agree more with Brovery@88 that your conflating Kaladin/Syl passively letting Szeth fall to his death and Amaram’s active murder of Kaladin’s men is problematic – they are vastly different in scope as well as in active/passive characteristics. Yes,a similar argument may be at play. An argument or decision strategy that, as I have stated before, comes awful close to ends justify the means and greater good ideologies, and thus, one that must be very carefully scrutinized, especially from a KR First Ideal perspective. However, that does not mean that this is evidence that Syl is fallen or that Kaladin is soiled and as bad as Amaram.
One aspect of the morality of Kaladin’s decision to grab the falling Honorblade rather than the wounded Szeth in the new version has not been addressed, I believe. Szeth was not only worthy of death given his slaughter of many innocents, he actively desired it. That’s why he didn’t defend himself at the end. Here was a man who could no longer live with his guilt having realized that he was never bound to an oath made in error. Saving him would only prolong his suffering. Kaladin had also learned to trust Syl’s judgments on such complex moral matters. When she insisted that he retrieve the falling blade and not risk having it fall into the wrong hands, he heard that as the voice of honor and morality and acted accordingly.
I still prefer the original version which removes the moral dilemma, but makes Szeth’s resurrection more problematic. We should wait, however, to see how Sanderson develops the Kaladin and Szeth character arcs in order to evaluate the revision more objectively.
Why does my Audible narration not match the written text depiction of Kaladin’s defeat of the Assassin in White? Anyone else notice a discrepancy?
wow WOW! I always wonder what song would fit, and I found it. go to this web cite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkD4mp4VnMo it will take you to The Lion King Broadway Soundtrack – 19. Simba Confronts Scar – YouTube. I know a lot of you will say noway because it will just show two lions fighting, and they cannot or will not “se it. So get the idea turn your sscreen off, and hear the music. oh by the way I’m blind. I also wonder will brandon see this too.