Good morning, Tor.com!
I say, with especial maddening cheer to my WOT peeps nursing post-JordanCon hangovers, heh. Because with the news last week that Sony Pictures has named a showrunner, one Rafe Judkins, for the long-awaited TV adaptation of The Wheel of Time series, WOT fans have had a lot to celebrate. (Not that any of you scurvy ne’er-do-wells needed an excuse, I’m sure.)
Concurrently, TPTB at Tor.com have asked if I, as one of the resident Wheel of Time opinion-havers round these parts, wouldn’t mind sharing my thoughts and/or girlish hopes and dreams re: a WOT TV series actually coming to fruition. And as I am generally perfectly happy to share my thoughts on things whether I’ve been asked to or not, I said Why I Would Love To, and here we are.
First, you should know that I have already done a Wheel of Time casting post, so if you would like to fight some more about that topic, please take a gander so that you may be properly outraged. Whee!
As to my thoughts on the overall enterprise of adapting The Wheel of Time into a TV series, I think that, like most WOT fans, I am both thrilled and apprehensive at the prospect. There are a million ways it could be awesome, and equally as many ways in which it could be awful, and we just don’t know which one we’re going to get.
I will say that the length of time it has taken for WOT to get to the screen has proved a definite advantage in a lot of ways, though.
For one, this is a great time to be an epic fantasy series on television. This is due, not entirely but in very great part, to one particular series on HBO which may or may not rhyme with Shame of Cones. Fantasy in visual media started gaining mainstream cachet in the aughts with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but it’s really only been in the last few years that it’s come into its own, especially on television—which, by the way, is itself experiencing something of a renaissance lately, with the last vestiges of the old attitude that TV is inherently inferior to movies finally fading away in the wake of truly quality series popping up left and right.
This is especially great for WOT, because unlike the LOTR books, which were juuuust barely containable in film trilogy form, the Wheel of Time is utterly unsuited for that format, and pretty much has to be a television series. And now that television is awesome, WOT thus can now (if done right) enjoy the prestige of cinema right along with the leg room of a TV series. It’s the best of both worlds, if you ask me.
Not to mention, one of the bigger concerns formerly plaguing the idea of a WOT TV adaptation—namely, the highly probable cheesitude of the special effects—is largely allayed. By now CGI has progressed to the point where even relatively low-budget productions can produce quality special effects if they feel like it. So as long as the show doesn’t do anything stupid like insist on inexplicable wind tunnels to indicate that people are channeling, there’s an excellent chance that the magical/supernatural goings-on of WOT could be near cheese-free.
(Seriously, Mr. Judkins, please please please don’t do wind tunnels. Or violin strings, or constipation faces, or voguing, or any other lame visual or audio cues to indicate channeling is happening because you think we can’t infer things. We’re not stupid; please don’t treat us like we are.)
That said, it is definitely a very big problem that channeling flows are supposed to be invisible to the characters, even those who are channelers. (As far as I can tell, channelers can sense flows, but not visually.) This is not that big a deal if, say, an Aes Sedai wants to lift a teapot with Air and the only thing we see is the teapot floating up in front of her, because as I said, we are capable of inferring things. But a lot of the channeling in WOT (especially the duels and battles, of which there are of course a ton) is really rather dependent on the interaction of different flows, sometimes in situations where they wouldn’t have any readily visible (or audible) effect.
[ETA: Okay, so about two million people have pointed out that in fact there are multiple instances of channelers specifically saying that they can see flows in the series, so I was just flat wrong here, and I am sorry. My brain farts, they are room-clearing sometimes. That said, I don’t think that that noticeably lessens the problems of visually depicting channeling in any kind of coherent way, so I will leave the rest of my commentary as is. Mea culpa.]
The scene I’m thinking about specifically here (though this is far from the only example) is Moghedien and Nynaeve’s duel in the Panarch’s Palace in The Shadow Rising:
Before thought [Nynaeve] struck out, weaving a hammer-hard flow of Air to smash that face. In an instant the glow of saidar surrounded the other women, her features changed—somehow more regal now, prouder, Moghedien’s face remembered; and startled as well, surprised that she had not approached unsuspected—and Nynaeve’s flow was sliced razor clean. She staggered under the whiplash recoil, like a physical blow, and the Forsaken struck with a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and Air. Nynaeve had no idea what it was meant to do; frantically she tried to cut it as she had seen the other woman do, with a keen-edged weave of Spirit. For a heartbeat she felt love, devotion, worship for the magnificent woman who would deign to allow her to…
The intricate weave parted, and Moghedien missed a step. A tinge remained in Nynaeve’s mind, like a fresh memory of wanting to obey, to grovel and please, what had happened at their first meeting all over again; it heated her rage. The knife-sharp shield that Egwene had used to still Amico Nagoyin sprang into being, more weapon than shield, lashed at Moghedien—and was blocked, woven Spirit straining against woven Spirit, just short of severing Moghedien from the Source forever. Again the Forsaken’s counterblow came, slashing like an axe, intended to cut Nynaeve off in the same way. Forever. Desperately Nynaeve blocked it.
You see what I’m saying, I hope. I really really want to see this scene on screen, but I have no idea how they’re going to accomplish it.
What that probably indicates more than anything, though, is that adapting the Wheel of Time to a visual medium simply cannot be a one-to-one function. I suspect the show will likely make the decision that flows are visible to channeling characters (possibly to all the characters, though I hope they don’t do that), and thus to the audience as well. I also suspect that some of the more esoteric channeling events in the series will undergo at least some simplification and streamlining. I don’t really like either of these ideas, but again, I suspect that they are unavoidable.
But hey, maybe I’m wrong, and Judkins and Co. will come up with some brilliant way to convey these things without resorting to a lot of CGI swooshes. Or maybe they’ll do a lot of CGI swooshes, but find a way to make them awesome instead of silly-looking. I can but hope.
The show’s crew has more than the conundrum of visually depicting channeling to contend with, as well. The sprawling scope and plotlines and cast that is the hallmark of WOT will be a logistical nightmare to compress, but compress it the show almost certainly must. And the choices they make in that compression are going to be what makes or breaks the show, I think. The news announcement says that our own Harriet McDougal will be retained as a consulting producer on the show, and I devoutly hope that they actually, you know, consult with her on what can and cannot be cut/condensed/altered.
So, there are a lot of possible problems, that’s for sure. The potential for disaster is definitely there. But at the end of the day, even acknowledging all that, I am excited.
I am excited to see things finally made flesh, so to speak, that I have only seen in my head or in static art for over two decades. There’s so many things I want to see, just in the first book, The Eye of the World. I want to see that first Myrddraal on the empty road to Emond’s Field, and see how the wind blows but its cloak doesn’t move. I want to see Shadar Logoth and Mashadar and the infamous dagger. I want to see Perrin’s eyes turn gold and see him talk to wolves. I want to meet Loial. I want to see Rand fall inside the palace wall in Caemlyn and come face to face with his destiny. And that’s just for starters.
I don’t expect all of it to be perfect, or even good. I cringe at the dread that none of it will be good. But I have hope that enough of it will be good that I can enjoy it. But no matter what happens, I look forward to sharing the experience with all of my WOT peeps. Because you know we all, every last one of us, will be there with bells on.
Leigh Butler is a writer, blogger and critic, who feels humor and weirding of language is the best way to examine the impact of sociocultural issues on popular SF works (and vice versa). She has been a regular columnist for Tor.com since 2009, where she has conducted or is conducting three series: the now-retired Wheel of Time Reread, the on-hiatus A Read of Ice and Fire, and the very much active Movie Rewatch of Great Nostalgia. She lives in New Orleans, and therefore advises you to let your good times roll, y’all.
Wow! First poster. That’s never happened before, just like a WOT series on TV. I too have great hopes and fears for what the TV jungle can do to a well loved print series. Actually my greatest fear is that I won’t live to see it completed ;) just like Sanderson’s Way of Kings series.
I think how ever channelers perceive the flows, it’s very close to sight in terms of immediacy and information content. So why not show it visually for TV? Though it would have to be invisible to non-channelers. Another tricky problem is men being able to detect when other men are holding the Power. A glow is a piece of cake for TV, but a sense of threat? Though they’d have a few seasons to figure it out.
I think Moggy’s story arc would have been more interesting if she’d been stilled here like Nynaeve was trying to do.
Yeah… But who killed Asmodean??? Will RAFO turn into WAFO??
(psst… It was Bela)
Well said, Leigh. You captured it all!
The biggest reason for my hope: Red Eagle is reportedly only receiving money and credit in this deal, not actual decision authority.
I’m worried, but I have to say, I have WAY more faith in Harriet than I ever did in Terry Brooks, or even GRRM for that matter, so I’m cautiously optimistic.
Excitement and dread definitely sums it up. Actually, I still barely believe it’s REALLY happening!
I hope they don’t try too hard to take from GoTs lead and go overboard with depictions of violence/nudity. WoT certainly has those, but generally in a different context, style, etc. For example, I don’t want to see the Aes Sedai raising turn into some kind of eroticized spectacle.
I also really want to see that Mydraal. Also wondering how they’ll pull of Narg ;)
I do hope they do a better job of that weird wagon scene that happens twice because it took me a few reads to figure out what was happening there – I get that it’s supposed to be somewhat confusing/disorienting but I was totally lost.
Most of all though – I hope they get the prologue right, as that’s what really hooked me into the series from the start.
Speaking of channeling and the weaving of flows, I thought the intricate patterns shown in the latest Marvel movie Dr. Strange did a great job of interpreting what magic looks like on screen. Also TV shows like Syfy’s The Magicians and TNT’s The Librarians have shown magic as concept by displaying it via graphics on screen. I think the technology is there to really make it look awesome and battles such as the one between Nynaeve and Moghedien would actually look really cool!
Isn’t Shame of Cones a penalty for failure in the Cones of Dunshire?
@3 Graendal killed Asmodean. The Forsaken were afraid to show up in each other’s territory without an explicit invitation because they were all prepared to kill each other at the drop of a pin. Unless, of course, they had an existing alliance. When Asmodean was killed, he was in Rahvin’s territory. Very few people were aware that Rahvin was dead, and only Graendal had an alliance with him. Later, Graendal insists that Asmodean is dead, then backpedals when asked how she can be sure. Also, it says so in the appendix to one of the latter books. The Gathering Storm, I think.
Anyway, I think translucent CGI weaves work just fine for when there is channeling going on, with a different (hopefully subtle) color for each type of power (Spirit, Air, etc.). At times–floating teapots, for example, or when most of the characters shouldn’t be able to see what is happening–they can forego that altogether. There are ways to give visual cues that we are showing what one character can see, then what another can see, so you could show nothing at all for a non-channeler, then one set of weaves for a woman, then another set for a man. It could work. If the weaves are portrayed as intricate tapestries of power, it will look really cool and not super cheesy.
I’ll probably give an episode or two a try, but I suspect I won’t end up watching. I was excited for Game of Thrones, until I watched it, and nothing on the screen matched up to the way it had been in my head for over 10 years. Normally that sort of thing doesn’t bother me, but in the case of Game of Thrones I couldn’t get past it. I can only assume it was the result of the long gap between my reading it and seeing it on TV, that certain visualizations had set in and stuck firm.
Given that the Wheel of Time is a series I started reading in 1990, and that I have greater affection for Jordan’s characters than I do Martin’s, the odds are high that I’ll experience the same dissociation with a Wheel of Time TV series. I’ll give it a shot, because I like to be pleasantly surprised, but I don’t have a lot of hope.
@8, 9 A lot of channeling has gestures associated with the weaves, like throwing motions for a fireball. In other cases, like healing and delving, just showing the glow should be clue enough to what’s going on. It’s the high-powered staring matches that need special consideration.
am I missing something? The book constantly speaks to the fact that Aes Sedai can “see the glow of saidar” around someone channeling. The above excerpt says “the glow of saidar surrounded the women”
I’m not sweating the flows thing. It NEEDS to be visible to be communicated. But it can easily be something like “You can sense the flows, and eventually, you can sense them strongly enough to visualize them.” There’s a perspective issue, but again, to communicate some of this stuff, we’ll need visuals.
All women who channel can see the flows of all other women who can channel. All men who can channel can see the flows of all other men who can channel. Women can not see or sense men channeling. Men can not see but can sense women channeling. The best example I can think of at the moment is when the Bowl of the Winds is used. Nynaeve (I think it was her POV) could see the massive weave coming from the bowl, but only the Saidar part. There were gaps that she assumed (rightly) were Saidin. But she couldn’t see it. There are countless examples of channelers commenting on the deft weaving or multiple flows another same sex channeler was doing. They were seeing it, not sensing it. Also the training required to duel against someone of the opposite gender is mentioned several times because you couldn’t see what you were fighting.
Hi Leigh!
I’ve been lurking on your re-read posts for a while now, but I figure it’s time to let myself be known. Dun-dun-dun!
Any way, tbh, I’m way more worried about casting for this thing than the CGI stuff. I think the CGI will work itself out (hopefully in a non-cheesy way), but if the cast is wrong, then none of it matters. Just look at the disaster that’s Shannara! The sets/visuals are stunning and well done (relatively speaking), but the cast just absolutely blows, especially Austin Butler who just absolutely misses the mark in every. single. friggin. scene. THAT’S my biggest worry. I’m praying that they take advantage of the extensive character descriptions Jordan has provided and cast talented unknowns who can “grow” into their characters the way the … er … characters themselves grow. I don’t even know if that makes any sense, but there you have it.
PS You gonna pick up the re-read of the re-read soonish? ;-)
@12:
What you’re missing is that the OP was talking about the “flow”, or the “weaves” being visible, not the glow around the channeler.
Leigh, loved going through your re-reads when I had time. Wanted to touch on the visibility of channeling. Most channelers of the same gender can see weaves of their sisters. It wasn’t until the Forsaken came along with their ability to invert their weaves did they become invisible. Take for example the ward around Callandor; it’s described as having a variety of threads that seemed to weave around something unseen, ie. the other half. All the same, it seems like a channeler of the same gender still ought to be able to sense the type of weaves that affect them or perhaps their own weaves.
#9, I think you’re spot on with the subtly colored translucent weaves. That’s exactly what I would hope for.
#11, good points about the gesturing, though these examples are generally a crutch fostered by the Aes Sedai of the current Age. Tricks they teach to help newbs weave easier. Other cultures teach their channelers how to weave without said gestures. It would, if nothing else, serve as a good distinction between run of the mill and a more highly skilled channeler. I share Leigh’s misgivings about awful use of channeling cues though, a glow is more than enough.
I’m pretty positive there are numerous instances of same-half-of-the-power (I almost typed same-sex, but Halima!) being able to see each other’s weaves.
When Nynaeve heals Logain’s gentling, and then has to perform the same trick on Siuan/Leanne, they make sure there are half a dozen others in the room so they can see how it is done. (And the Yellows immediately start talking about how they can see better ways to do it than she did. Feckin’ Yellows.)
There’s another scene with Nynaeve healing someone and she does it so fast and so intricately that the person with her (Elayne?) marvels at it.
When Rand is entering Beast Mode just outside Maradon, one of the Asha’man is able to see all of his weaves and says something about it being a Storm of Light. Some awesome Tor.com re-reader mentions this somewhere:
So. I think the show can definitely use cgi-ish things to portray weaves on screen, but probably only as seen by wielders of the same half of the Power.
Very well put. My main fear is that they try to go pop on the story. Like how are they going to deal with poligamy? Are they going to try to make sweet angels of Aes Sedai? What im trying to say is that they might want to make lines of good and evil and destroy some good characters in the process (Egwen and Casuane come to mind). Or they might focus more on the love story (which is important) than on the real struggle of all the different kinds of people encompased on the story. cgi shouldnt be an issue on this era but i do share your worry if to a lesser extent.
Hi Leigh!
::wags tail::
I don’t know if this has been done before but maybe Aes Sedai could use magic wands with glowy tips when they channel?
Expelliarmus!
Woof™.
In regard to scenes where intense channeling is happening, I imagine an effect similar to that used of when the One Ring was being used by Frodo in LOTR. Perhaps with colors to indicate the flows; and of course the image would be different depending on if the PoV is a male or female channeler (the flows of saidar being smooth and curvy while saidar has a frequency-like erratic pulse).
I hope they don’t get Sanderson to consult. I’m glad he finished the books but really didn’t like how he did it/changed the feel.
The special effects I worry about relate to the sniffing, braid-tugging, and skirt-straightening.
Maybe they can get commercial sponsorship from Benadryl, Clairol, and Tide…
I’m not too worried about visualizing of weaves. I think when in a POV of a character that can’t channel, not showing the weaves would be a good idea. Like when escaping the Two Rivers, show the effects of Moiraine’s channeling, because the focus is on Rand and company. But as they get further along, perhaps Egwene will start to see the weaves and so we see them too. I would use visual effects in different colours to represent the weaves. Red for fire, blue for water, white for air, brown for earth, and maybe silver for spirit? And as they weave the flows together, they meld and become whatever they’re trying to accomplish.
Sounds to me like they’ll have the budget to accomplish this. Sony isn’t known for penny pinching.
I think there will be plenty of violence, but not exaggerated or over the top. Sex will likely be at least slightly more exaggerated for the show, but not nearly as graphic as GoT. I’m totally fine with that. It has its place, but not in WoT, imho. And I think with Harriet being a consulting producer, that will be minimized. Hopefully.
Unless a weave is inverted to avoid detection, as happens later in the series, channeling is immediately observable by others who can wield the same power once they are past the beginning stages of learning to channel. The only exception to this rule is possibly the Mirror of Mists, which would be ruined if other channelers could easily see the weaves that lead to a fifty foot tall Moiraine standing outside a village gate… I say possibly because I vaguely recall someone being able to see even those weaves later and the Moiraine example was well before we knew other female channelers…
I think I would prefer to be able to see weaves occasionally, because the thought of watching Nynaeve and Moghedien’s standoff without seeing weaves is depressing. But, as the op stated, it would steal a little heart from the plot to be able to see it all the time. Like who pinched who’s bottom? lol
I may be in the minority, but I hope this is not a live action film. I would prefer something animated. I would like something with the animation look of Titan A.E. I could also live with the super imposition chroma key style of 300. I think the different settings and the number of material make it too expensive to shoot live action. If it were live action, I am afraid that too many of the secondary or tertiary plots would be cut or combined.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Once they have enough experience at channeling they can see the flows.
@25 Other channelers can see the weaves for the Mirror of Mists. That’s why the Aes Sedai later kind of scoff about it later on. It doesn’t fool other (female) channelers for a second, unless they invert the weaves, of course–which no one knew how to do until later in the series. No one who saw Moiraine do it that first time had any channeling experience (well, Nynaeve and Egwene did a little, but they were way too n00bish to see the weaves).
On a completely different note than worrying about how to visually display weaves, I’m going to refer more to the first part of the post. I also agree that this is a great time for this venture. In addition to the points already raised in regards to technology and television as a medium reaching a better parity with film, love it or hate it, Shame of Cones was a huge success. This demonstrated something to those who both make programming decisions and approve budgets. I think this is a great opportunity to throw a bunch of money at the bigger, better evolution of a high fantasy epic television production. WoT has a far larger reader base, and therefore, has the potential to garner an even larger viewing audience. Let’s see Sony do what is necessary to capitalize on it.
@26 They pretty much have to cut the tertiary plots and most of the secondary plots. The superboys and supergirls are enough for a full cast. Once they all split up, there’s too many primary plots.
I’m pretty sure channelers actually *can* see the flows. For example, when Aviendha unraveled the gateway out of Ebou Dar, just on the off chance that a Seanchan might have the talent to follow them, one of the Aes Sedai knew immediately what she was doing even though it’s made clear that the White Tower forbids it, and Elayne specifically watched her and studied how to do it so she could attempt it later on.
Furthermore, Nyneave and Elayne extort Moghedien for a weave that specifically hides not only the ability to channel, but also hides the weaves themselves from other channelers.
@31 et al. I believe the controversy here is over whether they actually see the weaves or if it’s another sense that is similar to sight but is not quite. That is, they “see” the weaves but not with their eyes, and any visual representation will not be strictly accurate. I’m pretty sure that is in fact what is supposed to be going on, not actual seeing-it-with-your-rods-and-cones vision.
That said, what is described is close enough to being visual that I can’t see why it wouldn’t be done that way.
Later the AS try to force captured sul’dam to admit that they can see the weaves.
To add to the chorus on seeing the flows, I recall that in the discussion between Tarna Feir and Nynaeve in Lord of Chaos, about breaking blocks, Tarna said that her block was that she could channel only with her eyes shut, which prevented her from weaving because she couldn’t see the flows.
Very well said in the article, and I also agree with most of the comments.
And so the anticipation starts!
Time for another re-read if people can’t remember that channelers can see weaves. Oh wait…
The things that I am looking forward to the most is the world of dreams or the wolf dream and mat (he is my fav) and it better be done right too! I would like to see how (instead of just imagining) he gets on with the daughter of the nine moons (yeah yeah i am a big hopeless romantic)
On the visual front, it’s a while since I’ve done a re-read but isn’t there a former wilder who helps Nynaeve at the White Tower, and whose block was that she could only embrace the power with her eyes shut, which made it impossible for her to actually weave anything as she couldn’t see anything? That would suggest to me a strongly visual element, not just sight-like.
It’s entirely possible I just imagined that, though, or that I’m thinking of an entirely different magic system from an entirely different series.
Edit:
@34 – That’s what I was thinking of! I didn’t imagine it!
So, what’s this about channelers not being able to “see” what other channelers do? This is from Nyneave’s point of view, how does she know it is a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and Air? She “sees” the weave of course. How does she respond, with a weave of Spirit to cut Morggy’s weave as she had “seen” the other woman do. It seems that channelers of the same gender can indeed “see” each other’s weaves, else the whole point of “inverting” the flows is, well, pointless. Otherwise things like Sorelia showing Cadsuane the weave for Traveling, or anyone showing or teaching anyone else doesn’t really make sense. Even in the quoted example, how in the world are they slicing and blocking each other’s weaves if they can’t see them? One of the big problems Rand has when he meets Lanfear is that he can’t see her weaves to block/cut them, while she smugly comments to him that she doesn’t need to see the weave to cut it. Rand, coming back from the Far Snows Dance with Av., sees the weave of Saidin that Asmodian made to make the Gateway invisible from the other side. There are numerous examples of a channeler “seeing” something someone else does with the power and duplicating it. If all this isn’t “seeing” in the ocular sense, it is certainly close enough to not bat an eye at in an adaptation.
A lot of people have already noted that inverting weaves was the only way to make it invisible to channelers of the same sex. I think a good way to break it down would be to basically establish a “narrator” for the episode. So if, for instance, Nynaeve was narrating and in combat, we could see the intricacies in the patterns woven. The glow of a channeler is just a small part of the visuals that we should expect.
Big thing is the only cue we should get is a channeler with the hue, and then we need the threads of power and that look of concentration/serenity that comes from channeling. To do that though, we need top notch actors that can emote without going too extreme into looking ridiculous.
Okay. So both men and women can see the flows/weaves, unless they are inverted. Women who have been trained in the fundamentals can see a glow surrounding another woman who is holding the power, unless the woman holding it knows how to hide it and does… whatever is needed to cover it up.
Men can sense the power being held, but have no visual clues until actual channeling takes place. See the private discussion between Rand and Taim at the end of Chapter 3 in The Lord of Chaos. However, this seems much like the force in the original three Star Wars movies. Whenever Vader was using the force, there was an underlying sound that played to let the audience know what was going on. It wasn’t a very effective clue, but some sort of visual blip could make it clear. Something reminiscent of the flame and the void would be perfect.
Whether the audience could see anything would depend on the perspective of the chapter. Mat didn’t see anything when he snapped at the girls after rescuing them from a nightmare when they were all out of patience. But he knew his butt was about 3 feet higher than it should be. That’s all the audience should see in that scene.
Personally, my biggest concern is going through all of the rumors and theories and questions that we’re already finished with. Can you imagine the calm required to ignore a facebook post that wants to start a discussion about who killed Asmodean, or if Olver is Gaidal Cain? Sure, we can use the first few times to post a link to Never gonna give you up. But eventually we’re going to be telling people that the answers are in the books, and start posting links to spoilers… and Never gonna give you up.
Re: Mirror of Mists….there’s a scene where Nynaeve is fooled by an illusion until she looks so closely, she realizes it’s actually woven from the Power. I think it’s in Tanchico, in the Panarch’s Palace?
Of course, it’s possible she’s fooled because she wasn’t angry enough to see the weaves.
Well, as for channeling, we never seen the force in Star Wars and still everyone gas pretty good idea what it does. Take a hint from the graphic novels. Looks pretty cool.
They’re going to cast a clutch of 30-somethings to play the young leads, I just know it. Damnitall.
@44, not necessarily. Look at Game of Thrones. They cast age-appropriate leads (at least appropriate for TV, I don’t think they could have cast a 13 year old girl for Dany, per the books). I think they’ll go for the leads late teens, early 20s. Hopefully they won’t age too quickly. Even still, we book readers know that the books are only about 2 years in total. But it could easily take place over 5-6 years without too much of an issue. That way the ages of the leads won’t be too noticeable.
@40, yes, that was my thought too, re: narrator for the episode or POV in the chapter. If it’s a Mat episode, they could show his medallion getting cold, but he couldn’t see the weaves (and so the audience couldn’t see them). It might get too complicated though, and they may just have visual representations of the weaves regardless of the POV, and have the non-Powered characters only react to the actual outcome of the weaves. I guess it might also be a matter of budget, i.e. only show the weaves when a channeller is present, etc.
::Hits “like” button::
Twice.
@42
Yep, it was the seal that was disguised, iirc.
I would feel safe with the Luhhans being cast as colored characters to avoid whitewashing. While it may be seen as stereotyping and there’s the whole thing with the Whitecloaks believing they’re Darkfriends, they do play a rather significant role in the beginning of TEOTW as part of the village’s decision making committees. And as one of Perrin’s father figure and role model, Haral Luhhan and his wife make a larger appearance later in the series.
Okay, I think the fact that channeling can be seen by channelers of the same power has been clarified over and over, so nothing new to add here. I will say that I am curious as to how they will display channeling on the screen. I like some of the suggestions above: I think each type of weave should have a different color or shade; and I think weaves of Saidar should look different than weaves of Saidin. I have faith that the CGI can be of decent enough quality so that they don’t look cheap; and that the CGI can be balanced with “real” special effects, where practical (real wind effects (sorry Leigh) when channeling Air, real flame effects when channeling Fire, etc).
I am cautiously optimistic that this series can be high quality TV. Don’t let us down, Sony!
I mean, I hated the last book so much that I’ve stopped looking at the reread and packed the books away in a box for whoever cleans up my shit when I die. Will I check out the TV Show? Maybe if it is a train wreck I will just to laugh a bit.
@47 wow. There’s a whole lot of wrong here. First, please don’t use ‘colored’ to describe non white people. That’s very old fashioned/offensive. Also, many of the Two Rivers people are described as dark of skin.
Second, that smacks of tokenism. To avoid whitewashing. While Rand has to be white, with his red hair, many of the Two Rivers people could be olive skinned or black. Nothing says they have to be white, just because you imagine them that way. I’d be fine with any colour as long as they’re good actors and it serves the story well.
Great write up.
Considering all the moments you mentioned above (Over the Wall, Loial, Shadar Logoth…) are all Keystone plot points in EoTW— I have no doubt you WILL see those on screen. They are just too powerful not to have them in the story line. ;)
Hi all,
So, never let it be said I cannot take a hint – or really accurate and voluminous error-correcting. The post has been edited accordingly.
@51 If they skip Shadar Logoth, they’d have to figure out a new way to remove the taint. I shudder to think of what they’d come up with.
Does that mean we will have a GoT moment when Moiraine “Dies”???!!!
Leigh, this really made me lol!
As far as the channeling is concerned little things like a tea pot or a cup floating don’t really matter, but big scenes where there is fighting involved should be seen. Just my thoughts. I’ve been waiting for this for 30 plus years now. Please don’t dissapoint.
Bells a ringing. Is there really anything else to say?
5+8=13
Honestly, I think it would be easier if no one could see the flows (except those Big Scenes, of course). How do you show that the channelers can see the flows, but ordinary people can’t? There are ways, of course – it’s just another one of the many challenges the production faces.
@50, I don’t necessarily disagree with you about @47’s comment though I come at it from a different angle (Master Luhan, being a blacksmith, might be more tanned than other Two Rivers’ folk from working in the forge, but he wouldn’t be of a different race), but I don’t think the Two Rivers’ folk could be other than western(?) European-like in looks if Rand is white. I say this just because Rand doesn’t look that different from the Two Rivers’ folk, at least not enough that people have noticed, and certainly not enough that Rand himself has noticed–otherwise he might have questioned why as a child, giving hint that Tam isn’t his biological father. And for another thing, Moiraine had asked around which of the three Ta’veren was born outside the Two Rivers in order to find out who might be the Dragon Reborn. If she could tell at a glance that Rand looks different, he would have been her prime suspect regardless of Nynaeve’s efforts to withhold that info from her.
Hi Leigh!
::wags tail::
Have you ever thought about Beano or Gas-x for er… your high pressure situations?
So I don’t know if this has been done before, but what if the Aes Sedai carried special swords? Magic sabers that were like blades of light from Aes Sedai power. Maybe even color coded. The Browns would have a not-so-fabulous looking sword but the Red Ajah, red and the Black Ajah, black.
It could catch on. Think about the merchandising.
Woof™.
@60 It’s been an age since I read EotW but wasn’t any questions about Rand’s appearance explained by his mother being from away?
Please, for the love of Aginor, get the Shadowspawn right!
Um. That’s probably not a widely motivational plea.
I like the idea of visually representing channeling.
As for certain people being able to see the flows while others cannot.
I would imagine something along the lines of most of te time the channeling is invisible. And then the camera switches to almost an over the shoulder viewpoint of one of the channellers when suddenly we see the individual flows eminating from the channeler.
And there can be a visual distinction between saidar and saidin.
Saidar is liquid light. Different flows of different colours.
Saidin is liquid fire also with colours
And while the taint is still there instead of the clean light of saidar.
The saidin flows give of noxious smoke and Have a dark decaying edge to all of the different colours.
My personal head cannon has always been very involved with the the “weaving” aspect of channeling.
The channelers generate the different coloured strings of light /fire and weave these into different shapes to generate the different effects.
A simple fireball is just fire woven or almost scrunched into a ball. And the channeler “pulls” the string tight to generate the necessary fire ball
More complex weaves require more intricate weaving and multiple couloured flows. Then pull the strings tight and suddenly there appears a gateway.
This could also be used to indicate skill
A novice takes a few seconds to get the flows woven correctly and generate the required effect.
Someone with skill or a specific talent like Nynaeves healing snaps together complex weaves in an eyeblink.
As the supergirls skill progresses they go from tediously having to weave all the flows just right to get the desired effect
To simply snapping together complex weaves on the fly.
That would make it very intersting to watch.
And give the audience an insight to how the skills increase as they progress.
Very much looking forward to this show
I admit I haven´t read all the comments thoroughly (yet) but it seems to me that most of you are concerned about channeling issues. I have another question: Perrin. And the wolves. You know, telepathy, feelings and smells. I mean, saidar glow and flows – that´s easy compared to that.
As far as channeling is concerned, the biggest issue I see is how will they portray it when some people can see the weaves and some can’t. Potentially, it could be rather confusing- even for fans of the books.
What I haven’t seen mentioned so far is the concept of Aes Sedai agelessness. Would it be removed altogether for the TV series? If not, how would it be portrayed? Perhaps cosmetics?
Also, I agree that Perrin’s wolf senses can be tricky- especially early on when they are more subtle.
But these shouldn’t be beyond the wit of quality professionals in the TV industry. What could really sink the show are the actors and script.
I really and truly hope that this series is translated onto the screen very well. I am a huge fan of another book series by Terry Goodkind called The Sword of Truth. I watched that horrible transition from book to screen play out and was surprised it made it all the way through the first season. When there are high expectations for a TV series of this magnitude, even the little changes can be a big deal. I will keep my fingers crossed but won’t hold my breath that it will be as good as we the fans hope it will be.
Just thinking about how much material will have to be cut/compressed makes my head hurt. That being said, there are a lot of areas where I think you could trim the source material, ESPECIALLY later on. For example, I could see the entire Shaido plot being cut with almost no issue.
As far as tEotW goes, I think there are some smart narrative choices you can make. Less time with Rand on the farm, perhaps a little more exposure for Nyn and Egwene than we actually get in the books. It would be cool to have the first couple episodes be a two parter, one of “Emond’s Field daily life” and the other the actual events that propel everyone out of the Two Rivers, and to have the whole thing be drenched in a Psycho horror vibe. Birds acting strange, disappearing guys on black horses with no shadows… I feel like a good showrunner could have a ball with the visual clues, especially if they treat us as adults viewers and don’t throw it in our face with ham-handed exposition.
@47 Ahem, the term isn’t “colored”, but “people of color”. And it would be perfectly reasonable to cast a PoC in the role of Rand because we all know the first vikings were black #staywoke
As far as Nynaeve and Moghedien’s battle, um, I think we all know how it will look:
@@@@@ 50 – I mean, unfortunately, there is a decent reason that most people in Emond’s Field should be white. The whole point of the Two Rivers is that it is geographically and culturally isolated from the rest of Randland. Tam al’Thor brings back an outside wife and a baby and it’s considered remarkable. With the changes that occur post-tSR, it’s quite obvious that the influx of new social mores and different looking people are jarring to the more established inhabitants.
This isn’t to say PoC shouldn’t be cast in roles in and around Emond’s Field, but you undercut the entire concept of what the Two Rivers represents to all the characters if you make it a multi-“ethnic” melting pot right off the bat. All of the characters save Perrin recall the Two Rivers as a simpler place from a different time in their lives, and a lot of the growth they all go through has to do with their exposure to new places and people.
I don’t think it’s absurd at all to have the Two Rivers be entirely white, assuming you have these characters leaving relatively quickly (not spending a whole season making it to Taren Ferry, e.g.). As long as your casting outside the TR becomes more inclusive, I think it works with the theme of leaving childhood and easy answers behind. You get to industrial towns like Baerlon, or large capitals like Caemlyn, which can have plenty of PoC characters, and ditto the Borderlands.
I wonder if they will do the Whitecloak plotline at all, as it smacks too much of the KKK in real life.
@71: Really good question. I can’t imagine how they could pull it off.
Hello people! I’m a big fan of WOT and was recently introduced to it a year and a half back. I ignored it for a while because of its massive size,but when I read it,I thought it was awesome! I read 12 out of 15 books 3 times over and it still got better. But the problem I had with the books was how overly descriptive of every little thing that existed in that world. How are they going to do that with a live action TV show? And I agree with that the casting will be a problem and the massive set pieces and locations that the show would be filmed in would be a massive undertaking. Plus,all of the side plots and secondary subplots would have to be taken to account. And the whole channeling thing. I just dont see that happening in a live action adaptation. If it’s created Sony should try focusing on making WOT animated. They should use animation that Titan A.E. used. Or maybe if it’s possible,they could go to a Japanese animation studio. Or a Korean one,it doesn’t matter. They could make WOT as an epic Japanese anime series but with a English voice acting. Or it should be 3D CGI like something akin to Resident Evil Damnation. These are just my opinions. What do you guys think?
@72 It’s a pretty basic religious fanatic trope. The real trick will be keeping the Whitecloaks from being reduced to nothing more than anti-Christian or anti-Catholic caricatures. Even though their whole arc is a criticism of self-righteous religious authority.
@73, there’s no way this will be animated. Sony wouldn’t throw down serious money for an animated show. They want GoT numbers. I can understand why you’d want it that way, but it’s not going to happen.
It is quite descriptive, I know. But that is shown on screen rather than spoken about. Easily (well, maybe not easily) done with the right budget and the right production designers.
@70. I totally get it. I was exaggerating to make a point, tbh. I was more offended by the attiude of the poster than truly believing what I was saying.
I’m really not sure, given the many different cultures of various skin tones we meet over the series, why anyone would be in a rush to make the starting village more diverse. We’ll get to that, hold your horses.
Personally I think it would undercut the impact of the development we see later, as the Two Rivers region receives a massive immigration boom and becomes a political force in its own right, if it’s cosmopolitan right from the start.
@71. I think the Whitecloak/KKK thing was intentional. This is just my opinion though. I don’t see why they can’t do the whole Whitecloak plot. Maybe not the Morgase parts. They’re integral to the story as a whole. The realization of Galad that they were competely wrong in many of their ways was essential to Perrin’s story.
Two big things:
1- I worry a lot about it being turned into a series for teens (twilight style). I have a long discussion with a friend of mine (also a fan) and agreed that sony may not have been the best way to go, other than for numbers of views. This next opinion will seem strange and gross, but please read to the bottom before discarding the opinion.
The show needs nudity. I’m not a fan of nudity in TV shows, I think if you want nudity, you have plenty of options. But… It does direct the show to a certain group of people, namely adults. Script and scenes will be adjusted to the crowd and if the viewers are adults, we have a chance of seeing something well done. Again, i don’t even like the nudity in game of thrones and find it to be excessive and not needed. But the show is set towards adults! Unfortunately, this won’t happen with Sony, it will be more for teens, I think.
2- the magic should not be visible at the beginning, as the series/episodes go on, we could gradually see more details as the characters would! I saw above some suggestions to colour depending on the type… Love it
Whitecloaks and KKK? Never crossed my mind. Like pretty much everything, RJ doesn’t have a single influence when setting up country, culture, etc in WOT. I think the WC have most in common with the Teutonic Order, but are not an exact parallel at all. Throw in a pinch of the Spanish Inquisition. I can’t see any close parallels with the KKK whatsoever.
The WC still could be cut out altogether, but it would be for the same reason the Shaido might. Some pretty major (i.e. long) plot lines, or organisations, will have to be removed, it’s inevitable, I think. The Shaido and WC are prime candidates for this, IMO.
Like other posters, I hope it doesn’t turn out like the Shannara Chronicles show.
@79
I have one thing to say to you all… Shannara. Please, please, please don’t screw this up.
@@@@@ 80
I wasn’t sarcastic about anything in my post. What’s the issue?
OK, everyone can stop worrying, because the worst possible Wheel of Time TV adaptation seems to have played itself in a hilariously bad dream last night. It was basically a Rand/Elayne jukebox musical. And it went downhill from there. Seriously?? My subconscious is clearly not allowed to be showrunner.
@74, the best solution to your very real problem may be in the books. There’s a moment within a Niall POV that makes it clear that, at the very least, he is a deist rather than a theist. It’s never clear whether this is orthodoxy or heresy. But pulling it further to the front and creating a mob of deist fanatics who are violent precisely because they (incorrectly) believe that God has abandoned the world for humans to run could make things interesting, with a bit of an alternate-history French Revolution vibe.
Though that brings up another minor issue–the number of obvious WoT references that have been allowed on Once Upon a Time during its run. Not just the army whose uniforms are clearly Whitecloak, but completely transparent allusions to T’A’R videoconferencing and channelling training, and even a creepy alternate Perrin in Season 1. Will viewers who have seen both shows realize that those were allusions, not plagiarism on either side?
@79 Their founder is named after the same guy who founded the Jesuits. They’re definitely too Catholic for the KKK :p
I don’t think the weaves would be very difficult to make. All you would really need to do would be a translucent weave, with a subtle color, and maybe a slightly different shade or identifying feature depending on whether it’s saidar or saidin. As the having men sense each other, there could be a sound, but not wind tunnely. I would kind of picture a forceful but dampened sound of pressure. My biggest worry is the casting. Looking at the last post on dream casting, I agreed with a lot (chiefly Elayne, Moiraine, Lan, and Thom), but I feel like that could be a big make or break for a lot of people.
I think the flows can be very nicely visualized. Each type of flow (Air, water, spirit, fire, etc) can have it’s own distinctive look. And power and/or finesse in it’s use can be displayed by thickness and purity in the image.
Haven’t read all the comments so this has probably been said already, but I’d point out that we just saw a really good way to visually represent this kind of magic use in Marvel’s “Dr. Strange” adaptation. When they started using the sling rings and creating weapons out of magical energy in that film, my immediate reaction was “This is what channeling looks like.” It’s a fast-paced form of magic use that has a great visual component, and for folks who’ve read the WOT comic adaptations, I’m fairly certain that this is how channeling was visualized in that particular medium, as well.
I’d say it’d be pretty simple to convey and let people figure out without beating them over the head with it – you’d see Moiraine using a few weaves here and there, but you could really play out the mechanics of channeling and weaving the Power as Egwene and Nyaeve begin to learn how to use their own talents.
@87. Yes, absolutely. I don’t think we should be too worried about how they’ll convey channeling. I’m sure they’ll do a good job.
I loved how Dr. Strange used those travelling portals. Really reminded me of Androl.
Like pretty much everyone I’m both thrilled, curious and anxious by this news. Many of the issues I have concerns over have already been pointed out, so I’ll focus on those I haven’t read (though as a note I gave up reading comments about about 40 so it may have been mentioned already).
For one, while we know Sony is making it they’ve yet to say specifically which network it’ll air on, and that will tell us so much more about the show. Will they up-play the violence or down-play it? Focus on the love stories or the political battles? Will they aim for 5 seasons or 14? Heck Sony Pictures Television has produced shows that aired on ABC, FOX, The CW, CBS, the list is quite long and anyone watching tv knows how different those networks can be with their shows. I’d just like to know which actual network is doing this before I get my hopes up (or down) on anything.
Though one other issue I’ll point out, that is related to casting but has more to do with the acting ability of the cast, I just hope they’re able to cast people (and that they direct them) in a way where we get that true emotionless face so many channelers end up having. It may not seem big, but there aren’t many people that can truly appear emotionless, something shows whether it be anger, disdain, coldness. And with our Aes Sedai and Asha’man (and others), while a few did show disdain, coldness or anger, the majority were quite simply emotionless when dealing with others and I hope we don’t loose that due to an inability to portray it.
Im excited and worried. They ruined Terry Brooks Shannara and they ruined Terry Goodkinds Seeker. Maybe someone can get it right, like they did with LOTR and the Hobbit, but I dont hold out much hope. For some reason people who have never read the books, take our beloved series, and then make the worst possible decisions to add or subtract characters and places and it just does not work out so well.I will watch the first episode or 2 with an open mind and fingers crossed.
I would love to see the Nyneave vs Moghedian duel on screen! I imagine it as a very visually spectacular duel of many strands of light and whatnot all vying for advantage and that ultimate deadly strike; full of fury, light and sound. Then cut away to someone on the cleaning staff just wandering through who looks over and sees two women staring intently at each other. He shrugs and goes about his business. Then it’s back into to cacophony that is the battle from the ladies’ point of view.
Think along the lines of the Stan Lee cameo in amazing Spiderman sort of thing.
@@@@@ 82 – I agree, I don’t get the KKK vibe either, except from the “white cloaks” aspect. Here’s the problem with that comparison – the KKK are vile, evil people dedicated to vile, evil principles, and they know it, which is why they hide their faces for the most park with white hoods.
For better or worse, we KNOW there is a Creator in Randland, and more importantly, we KNOW there is a Cosmic Evil actively working to destroy the inhabitants of the world. In light of that kind of Manichean dichotomy, you can excuse religious organizations that are overly zealous in tracking down evil people, because in this universe people can literally sell their souls to the Devil. So it’s difficult to condemn the Whitecloaks for their core beliefs; obviously, they are total idiots in general (as most fanatics are) and hard to root for in their arrogance, but as individuals they aren’t necessarily bad people. As someone said, the knightly monastic orders are far better parallels. Extremely wealthy and powerful military groups dedicated to a particular religious cause. Spread throughout the continent and able to set up shop just about everywhere they want, with a home base as a client state they either outright own or effectively govern from behind the scenes.
Responding to @92: In addition to your perceptive comments (I’m hardly a Whitecloak apologist, so let’s not go down that road before this thread devolves into another Seanchan apologist flamewar, which is pretty off topic), it’s also worth noting that, despite the Whitecloaks’ appalling track record at correctly identifying Darkfriends, they may not be far off the mark in terms of their estimates of how common Darkfriends are.
Logically, if 20% of the White Tower population were Darkfriends, that couldn’t have been achieved without there being a substantial network of Darkfriend cells, given how low the percentage of channelers in the population is. And likewise, given the Manichean nature of the universe, and the extremely vague promises of rewards for walking in the Light, it’s not surprising that a substantial alternative religious community dedicated to the worship of the Dark One would become a social factor.
I wish we didn’t have this thing where so many people are more concerned that the race of an actor be non-white than that it reflect the content of the books. Yes, of course very many characters in the books are non-white, and yes of course it will be awesome to have that reflected in a wide array of non-white actors. Meanwhile, in the beginning of the story, most of the characters are various shades of Western European by their description and that of their setting. We should not be wringing our hands over this. This is the story we claim to love. Portray it accurately. I mean, I don’t even have any problem with changing characters races; if Djimon Hounsou auditions for Mat, and does a great job, fine, go ahead and cast him. But don’t be like, hum, not enough non-white people here, let’s shoehorn some in. I’m disheartened that approximately half of the discussion on this is handwringing about whitewashing. Whitewashing is a specific thing – replacing an existing non-white character with a white one, or portraying them with a white actor in ethnic make-up, at the expense of actors of the character’s race. If they cast Scar-Jo as a Sea Folk Windfinder, then we’ll have some whitewashing.
@@@@@ 93
Also, before the events of the main books, being a DF usually appears to be quite beneficial without much cost to the individual. Some DF we’ve seen are quite decent individuals. I’m specifically thinking about Delana.
I enjoyed your article Leigh and also the many comments. I also have many of the same concerns and want to see many of the same visuals. I am confident that low-budget special effects can be acceptable in small encounters involving small groups of people, but I wonder if they will be able to portray the epic battles very well without looking lame. I also have concerns about excessive use of graphic nudity, sex and modern-day bad language. Those elements make a show less interesting (even offensive) and I will not watch the series if it goes in that direction.
Yessssss to all the things!
Wasting money on a WoT series is honestly morally indefensible. The first six books were objectively good; some slow sections, but genuinely rewarding and epic moments to balance it in favor of the series. But after that…
I can’t see why someone would read Sanderson’s finish and find it worthy or riskfree enough for such a high-end enterprise. Have they even read it? I just really, really don’t want to see a Benioff & Weiss edition of WoT.
@98. Have you read the Sanderson WoT books? It doesn’t seem like you did. On the whole, people have praised his books. Not the same as RJ would have done it, but they complete the story that we all have been reading for years.
I think, if done right, a TV series can be great! It won’t be exactly the same as the books, but that’s understandable. They are completely different mediums. I have faith in Harriet McDougall, RJ’s widow and editor. She is listed as consulting producer.
Part of why I love WOT is the thoroughly unique, detailed, and truly “different” magic system. I’ll accept that much of the perception of that system is in the heads of people who channel and that’s going to be really tough to portray on screen without massive simplifications being made in how the systems work. If I had to boil it down to the essential elements without which it would just not be the same story…
1.) the fact that men and women have access to different halves of the power (kinda don’t have the entire premise without that)
2.)that Saidin is now tainted
3.) that some people channel and some don’t, that those who do, do so at different strengths
4.) and that many of our main characters have various inborn abilities at in in ways that surpass existing channellers BUT they have to learn a crapton to get there first and much of the story is their journeys to do so.
(Oh, and the difference between sparkers vs learners is vital to the entire Seanchan social system–assuming the don’t cut the Seanchan from the whole thing.) I suppose all of those items will probably have to be covered with exposition, but it would be badass if we could see the difference between Saidar and Saidin, between Morgase-level strength and Lanfear-level strength, the oiliness of the taint on Saidin creeping in from the Void… Even if those things are just hinted at visually for those of us who know and not necessarily clear to the viewers who haven’t read.
And of course making sure that the channeling battles are properly amazing. I want the Dumai’s Wells scene to make me *weep*, man, repeatedly.
The weaving thing and five powers thing IS a cool visual and does add vitality to the written story, but if I were forced to cut some specific detail for the sake of making it work on screen without getting over-complicated, I’d label those as less thematically important. Especially because to them off might be cool…or it might be kinda corny and over-complicated. The same with the subtle differences between how women perceive other women with the Power and how men do the same (“glow” vs “threat”), the fact that women can’t sense men but men can kinda sense women (probably easier just to say they can’t sense each other) and the random linking # rules–cool, fun to read about, but hard to show and not ultimately as critical of a detail.
I’m of the opinion that there is no need to cut cast out of the series. The plots and sub plots should stay intact as well as all of the characters. Much of the series is descriptive. Whole chapters almost literally devoted to describing the scenery. I think this cuts through much of the density of the books and gives production a vast wealth of tools to work with. In fact, I believe that complaints will be made about how fast the series is moving because of that very thing. You’ll need the sub plots and differing characters to fill out the series. Tanchico will be a wisp of a story ark. So will Tear and the Aiel Wastes. Camelyn will fly by as if Rand and company only spent a day there.
No my concern is with how points of view will be handled. Especially in combination with the OP being used. Someone mentioned Rands butt being pinched. Well if the scene in the book is through Rands POV then we shouldn’t see the girls weaves only Rand’s. If it’s the Women’s point of view we shouldn’t see any male weavings, even if they are standing right there. I think there should be scenes where all weaves should be scene like when the Choden Kal are being used and it’s resulting battle when the Forsaken and Channeling Darkfriends show up. But it can switch between a narrative (NV) view and a POV as well, for instances where actions are intense but there is a need to show individual tribulations.
If they think this through well enough it can be done well. POV is going to be key though and how well they handle that, even for just mundane circumstances, will determine how well the story flows in the minds of WoT fan base. If they alienate the fanbase the series dies before it starts. But they also have to make things reasonably palatable for non readers as well.
It will be interesting to say the least though and I for one can’t wait for it to start.
Z
If the first episode contains a voice-over, laden with forced gravitas, talking about the wind not being the beginning, or the Wheel of Time turning and ages doing what ages do, I’m turning it off right then and there.
@Andy I feel the Shaido plots could be condensed for sure, but not entirely removed. For instance how does the Dumai Wells thing work? The Shaido plots could end there possibly, but not cut out entirely. Then there’s Perrin and Faile arc’s that could be ruined. Though I admit that that Arc could be shortened significantly.
I feel that many are too quick to want to cut out Arcs and characters for the good of a timely flow. Shortened yes, cut No.
@103 – Easy. Faile never gets captured. Thus, Perrin doesn’t become the biggest whiny character of all time.
I do wonder, assuming any of it gets in, how things like Faile’s relationship opinions, or Tylin would be handled. That said, in some ways I hope they don’t cut it just because it is not palatable to our sensibilities (they may cut it for other reasons, ha). There are some characters in WoT that hold ideas I definitely do not agree with, especially when it comes to relationships, but that is part of what makes it a believable world.
While I’d like this enterprise to mimic the books closely (mostly), they will have to reduce the books to the most interesting and connected storylines… And despite the purists here, they will have to add more nudity and possibly violence to some of the books… It will have to go TV-MA. There is almost no sex in the early books of EotW… Some people only watch GoT for the violence and the Sex/Nudity. I believe the titillation factor is too low. They will have to sex the series up… The characters are quite prudish in the first book… In the second book they are all sneaking around trying to avoid the opposite sexes in the communal baths in the Borderlands… So I wouldn’t be surprised that there will be some “unnecessary” nudity added into the first book… I guess at Baerlon at the inn while bathing? Maybe. Maybe in Caemlyn, Rand doesn’t fall into the garden by being startled by Elayne speaking to him from the tree. He sees her dressing through a window and loses his balance? Or maybe Egwene is bathing in the winespring waters at the very beginning of the first episode and Matt finds her clothes pile and runs off with them… If they leave the first book as it is written, those people who are expecting GoT will abandon it. We all know that passed book two, there are instances of nudity or near nudity with the Seanchan, Sea Folk, white tower initiations and the forsaken. If they wait that long they lose audience. Supposedly, the most amount of nudity in GoT is the first season… go figure…draw them in with sexuality until they get hooked on the story… then keep the nudity level at a slightly lesser value…. EotW doesn’t really need nudity unless they want to make money…. I don’t need nudity in the TV version, but the larger audience will want or expect it….
And the violence…. there are a great many instances of violence and gratuitous violence in the books (not a ton in the first book though)… like the Borderlanders hung up in the trees with their skin removed…And the battle at the Wells… um can you imagine that scene at pg-13… Come on… Giant magical food processors hewing people into soup… that scene is supposed to be shocking…it is fundamental to Rand and Perrin and their relationship…
I also don’t want the TV version to reduce the amazing, convoluted work of Jordan… But some of the characterization comes at the expense of long storylines. At times you wonder at the Faile abduction by the Shaido… it really seems unnecessary. But it demonstrates Perrins stoicism, tenacity and focus…. things the reader needs to believe for ending of the series… maybe they will write in a shorter way to get that into the story…
I’m going to shut up now…. it is my favorite series… I’d love for Sony to succeed… and I’m more than a bit curious about how they will pursue the success…
I guess I will start the series again… I haven’t looked at it since I read the last book a couple months after it was released.
The PLOD isn’t really that long, it just seems that way because it is spread over too many books.
Another problem for the movies is how to show the difference between the thoughts and actions of characters like Mat and Nynaeve that makes them funny.
Adding extra sex and nudity to attract GoT viewers would ruin the series. GRRM deliberately added things like the Red Wedding to shock people, but WoT isn’t that kind of series. There are enough Aiel sweat tents and the like in later books that are less kid friendly on TV than in writing. I haven’t seen the GoT series, but from the reviews it seems that the later seasons were ruined because the movie makers concentrated on shocking the audience instead of telling a story that makes sense.
They may “lose” some viewers if it’s not GoT enough, but they’ll lose others – a lot of WoT fans – if they ruin the story by trying to be too like GoT. Personally, I think if they do a good job with the storytelling, they’ll have plenty of viewers without adding superfluous sex and violence. Possibly more, even.
@107 and 108:
I hope that they do not go the GoT route in terms of violence and nudity. I will definitely not watch if it has excessive amounts of either.
And I hope that they don’t try and imitate GoT just because it has been successful. A WoT TV show can and should stand on its own, without copying something else.
“GoT style/levels of violence and nudity” fit that particular show. WoT will be a different show. It doesn’t need to artificially add sex and gore in order to subjectively achieve greater popularity. As others have pointed out, there’s plenty in it already.
On the whole, the way RJ went about it means that the show runners have a choice on how explicit they want to be. When and how they choose to cut scenes- how much they want to show. I would prefer they go the middle of the road. Being European I don’t get shocked by a fleeting glimpse of an ankle ;), but I can do without Myrdraal’s favourite pastimes…
I agree that it would be a good thing for the show to grab the viewers straight away. It would help if the show is of middling quality… The beginning lends itself very nicely to psychological triller/horror. Adding to this they can play with Padan Fain’s activities right before he enters Emond’s Field- if they decide to forgo the “surprise” reveal of his allegiance. Throw in it Moiraine and Lan advenure, connected with Fain but in such a way that they remain unaware of him.
@@@@@ 103 – Dumai’s Well’s is easy. Who cares if the Shaido are there or not? All you have to do is slightly alter the timing of events. Rand has already escaped and is already busy taking out channellers. Have it be Perrin sneaking in with a small force to liberate Rand, trusting that he’ll be powerful enough to get them out (as he plans in OTL). Maybe there is a White Tower force coming to meet Galina halfway to Tar Valon, so instead of it being Elaida’s sisters defending against the Shaido, it’s the Wise Ones and assorted Aes Sedai defending against a White Tower army, when Taim shows up. Boom, you’ve got a plausible way to do that scene without losing any of the crucial moments/characterizations, and cut the Shaido.
@@@@@ 101 – the problem is not the length of the books, but the cast of characters. For the moment, consider GoT as a template. There are like what? 3 or 4 important locations that get focused on (Kings Landing, the Wall, wherever Dany is, and maybe a random moving target in any given season). Those locations have, AT MOST, a couple dozen characters to remember, in total. That way, we have maybe 3 dozen “important” characters to remember across several seasons, and maybe, MAYBE half that again in minor characters. Now think about how that translates to Wheel of Time.
Take the White Tower/BA Hunter subplot. You’ve got at least 20 named characters that we need to remember, in what could generously be called a tertiary plot. The BA hunters themselves. The ferrets. The BA members that are caught. Elaida, Alviarhin, Mesaana. You’ve got various unimportant named characters like the head of the White Tower Guard (whose name I can’t remember now). Think about all the named Kinswomen, and Sea Folk, and Wise Ones. There are dozens of Aes Sedai with speaking roles running around Randland. The nobility of Andor, Cairhien, and Tear probably get you to 30 or so characters. And we have barely touched on a single main character yet.
It’s too much. You can’t expect a casual show watched to remember all this. Some consolidation is necessary. And sure, a lot of that can be done by combining characters (reduce the nobility to a couple of important speaking roles per country, the Aes Sedai the same way, etc), but at some point, logistically for the showrunner, it becomes too difficult to have a dozen plotlines running in 6 distinct locations. Finding plots like the Shaido, which has relevance only in a couple discrete instances which can be easily assigned to other factions, makes everyone’s lives easier. Hell, most of Mat’s latter storyline with Luca’s carnival can go. Most of the the later pre-Sanderson books can be cut – this is why everyone complained about the plot bloat in the first place.
I favor looking back from the end of the series to see what should be dropped. The most obvious candidate is Morgase’s arc, which was an interesting experiment, but didn’t affect the plot much. Fain should probably die off sooner. Gawyn arc should be condensed. Perrin needs to spend way less time in narrative limbo, maybe by moving the Trolloc invasion of the Two Rivers back so he doesn’t turn into Lord Perrin until later. The Shaido could be condensed and moved off-screen after Dumai’s Wells.
A lot of the bloat and meandering plot seemed to be the result of early narrative choices having major unintended consequences. I think the show should take the opportunity to avoid repeating the books’ mistakes.
@112. Absolutely agree, when breaking the story beats they should move backwards from the end. This way they can cull out the extraneous plots as you suggest, Morgase’s plot being a good example. Even much of Elayne’s quest for the crown can be cut. Not all of it of course. And Faile’s captivity, which is important to Perrin, but little else.
I suggested earlier that the Shaido should be cut after their defeat at Cairhien. Maybe only after Dumai’s Wells, which needs to happen in all its glory.
As much as I love the Black Ajah hunters, that will likely be cut. Maybe melded into Egwene’s captivity in the White Tower somehow. This would also cut Pevara and Androl, who are awesome, but unnecessary to the major plot.
Basically, they will make drastic cuts to the books in order to make it understandable to the common viewer. The non-fan cannot be expected to remember all of these people that we’ve come to know and love over the course of the books. It would become confusing, and end up being cancelled too soon. We will always have the books to read and re-read over and over again. But I really want to see this story played out on-screen. As much of it as possible!
i really hope it’s not aimed at teenagers! It needs to be like GOT in that respect. The fights, battles need the equivalent level of violence and grit. I always found jordans writing a bit prudish. I’d like it to be a little less pg.
please please spend the money on decent cgi and extras. The trollacs need to be excellent!
No American accents either (sorry my friends across the pond) unknown actors in the lead roles. Again I think this needs to be cast along the GOT lines.
I will be crushed if they cheese this up!!!!!!!
Hi Leigh!
::waves::
First off, the hunny- nobody waited for me. Etiquette. Manners. Honestly.
Second, PG rating- two words:bath scenes. No way those literary masterpieces are getting glanced over… Er, I mean folks will have to glance, even look, so they can’t take those out.
Spankings, well that’s three words but spankings have to be included, they were integral to the story.
For folks worrying about WoT going sideways and committing the blasphemy of comparing it to the yeard, goodkind, don’t worry Harriet is there. She Is wise.
Get the Ogier, baddies and wolves right and the rest is duck soup.
Woof™.
Please, please come up with “something” to make the trollocs distinct from the the Orcs in LOTR and the Hobbit.
I know RJ was intentionally alluding to them, but…good grief!…it seems like every horde ever since has walked/run (as Peter Jackson himself pointed out) as though they each have a load in their diapers.
We really need some design elements that make “the look” of WOT different from LOTR, GOT, or any other fantasy.
So, one easy way to accomplish the visual cues needed in some situations (but not in others) is the use of black & white scenes with CGI-produced, colored weaves of saidar/saidin. That way, we can leave the weaves of the power invisible for scenes like the teapot by not going to black and white, but when we need to depict a channeler’s duel or Aes Sedai instructional courses in the White Tower, we can fade to black and white and show the one power as appropriate.
I think that some weaves we should see and some we should not regardless of the POV of any specific channelers/non-channelers. I agree that same-sex channelers (yeah I said it lol) should see what’s going on (along with us) if their POV is relevant at the time. However, I hope that we get to see, like in Rand’s scene outside Maradon, the weave, we should still see what those create. Deathgates, etc…Without necessarily having to see the powers being knitted together. Just my opinion. I am gonna stay positive about this, as hard as it is, but I’m not gonna stress over it. The odds are against this series. Glass half full people. Love the re-reads Leigh and I love these forums.. Have bloody fantastic day you sons of goat kissers!! (jus playin lol)
I’m enjoying the debate herein and, more or less, Leigh’s casting list. However, the one that I have big problems with is the choice for Faile. We all know Jordan’s love of repetition of characteristics and descriptions, so the choice has to have an “aquiline” nose, right? I’ve always imagined a woman of a more Persian-looking background with a beautifully hooked nose.
My chief concern with the Wheel of Time as a series is the heavy reliance on gender roles. In today’s society, with trans activism rising and the idea of “gender as a spectrum” being pushed hard, the Wheel of Time TV series is going to receive a LOT of push-back if they stick to the books’ strict male/female dichotomy.
I’m worried that they are going to water-down the male/female dichotomy to please the trans movement.
I can imagine that they can do this in a satisfying way.
I kind of imagine flows as different translucent colors and the shield as a special shape extending via a long thin line from the one weaving the flow.
So we see Nynaeve shoot out the shield (probably has to be in some sort of slowed time in order to keep up) and Moghedien raises a thin plate of the same color to block it… (in order to show that the block is strained and barely holding, it could be bending slightly). After Moghedien tries to shield Nynaeve, who then blocks it as well, the camera could shift to show them both but without the power invisible… we see their strained expressions, the focus in their eyes, the sweat appear on their foreheads, all while everything is completely still.
The first part, I imagine is following Nynaeve… it is from her 3’rd person view we see things, but the second part is detached; like an outside observer. I think that while it wouldn’t fit to hear their thoughts , like we do in the books, they would still need to follow a person most of the time. It is absolutely essential for the story that the power is visible… at least sometimes. Don’t tell how talented or powerful a person is, but show it in the form of all the threads combining… at least when it is a complex weave. Basic fireballs that are visible don’t need to be shown in this way and many others only needs to be shown once.
Delving is funny one… Basic delving and healing we only need to see once (I imagine it to be some sort of first person view, but not of a physical body where wounds glow, but more a mental image). Special Delvings will sometimes require a view again though.
For the most part, I can imagine weaving done right on the screen (Please don’t do anything like this though:
/revision/latest?cb=20100321032120 … it looks to “constructed”. I imagine the power as something primal and sometimes wild and while there can be certain patterns, it shouldn’t contain extra “fluff”… make traveling gates a perfect boring square ).
The thing I am most worried about is how much will be lost in translation when translating thoughts to actions or words. We spend so much time inside the minds of characters in the book, that it could show a character in a completely different light in the tv series if we don’t know the motivations, doubts and reasons for the actions they do. One of the best things about the books, in my opinion, is how torn you can be about many characters in the book. Somehow it was just delightfully frustrating to see the faults of a character, but to be able to empathize somewhat when you got to know their motivations.
Then again, some great moments also came from an outsiders perspective (Verin comes to mind) so perhaps it can be done.
I just hope that it will be good so we get the whole story.
And of course I meant:
…the camera could shift to show them both but without the power invisible visible…
C’mon now. Alex Proyas did this ~20 years ago with Dark City, and, while that film has a host of flaws, the “magic/psychic dueling” isn’t one of them. The bit where John Murdoch breaks out of his metal-cage contraption, strands melting and wiggling away like earthworms in sunlight, then engages the lead Stranger (“Mr. Book”) in telekinetic combat seems sorta Aes-Sedai/Ashaman to me.
In the middle of a re-read right now.
As stated by many others – characters can SEE flows. It’s also specifically noted that you have to be holding the power when it happens (until Nyn’s drowning, she had to be made angry enough to channel in order to see anything Elayne was doing).
Rebels would only make gateways inside tents for a good amount of time to prevent possible tower spies from learning gateways. This technique was later adapted to prevent damane from seeing them.
Sorilea is too weak to form a gateway, but apparently is strong enough to weave the flows together in a smaller scale, she does this to show Cadsuane the gateway weave.
Rand learns a number of weaves from forsaken, although there’s some implication (maybe one of the ways Saidin is different) that it’s not as easy to see (or maybe he’s just not used to learning that way since there’s not “teachers” for saidin while he’s learning).
All the female channelers using the bowl get freaked out when they see the flows wrapping around “something” and realize its saidin that they can’t see.
Conversely, channelers within a certain distance (relative to their ability to channel AND the strength of the weave, discounting ter’angreal and active efforts to alter the distance) can feel use of the power – In a number of forsaken battles including the destruction of the towers in carhien, Rand deliberately doesn’t channel to prevent the renegade ashaman from feeling them. The cleansing of saidin is felt seemingly everywhere by almost everyone (but no one knows what’s going on). Using the bowl caused “weirdness” in the power around ebou dar for quite a while, and the event itself was mistaken by a number of damane/sul’dam to be related to the gateway explosion.
Channelers can also sense other channelers nearby, although this is amplified when they hold the power, muted somewhat when they don’t, and you can get a general feel for someone’s power level even when they’re not holding the power – it’s amplified considerably when they are. This is noted on a number of occasions and is used to determine precedence in the Tower – but as shown early in the Black Tower, it only works once the channeler has started channeling. You have to do a resonance check to find a male channeler prior to them starting to channel, and although it’s never explicitly stated as far as I can recall, it seems like moiraine did something similar to ferret out both egwene and nynaeve. Presumably the wise ones and windfinders do something similar because both groups claim to find 100% of possibles. Damane can’t see channelers who haven’t started yet – and even the a’dam is unable to “detect” channlers that won’t *definitely* channel as such (which is how they slip through the cracks to become sul’dam)
At one point during the tanchico battle, someone notes that while the flows are visible to Nyn and Mog, an outsider looking in would simply see two women staring intensely at each other.
Unraveling a weave requires the channeler to LOOK at it, and find the brightest one to tug it out. It’s visual, not a “feeling”.
The series is 14 books long, but a lot of the story is eloquent and explicit descriptions of just about everything, objects, clothing, locations, mannerisms of characters, subtleties of movement and reaction, fighting scenes and so on. A good director with good actors, and a good crew can lift tons of information about the look and feel of the story, leaving enough material I would say for 6 solid seasons.
Some readers as I remember it complained about the “fluff” and the “filling”, but without the deliciously detailed descriptions it would not be the same story. The “fluff” should be a director’s and a costumer’s and a set designer’s closest companion when attempting to do the story justice. It has the potential to set a whole new benchmark after The Game, but more than that it has the possibility to stay very close and faithful to the author’s grand vision, unlike said game.
I’m not getting my hopes too high. People are comparing WoT with Game of Thrones (ASoIaF) and I mean, come on, they’re completely different worlds, characters, and in their complexity, different types of fantasy. They both have WIDE audiences, but they’re each shifted towards one age or another. Game of Thrones towards a more mature audience, Wheel of Time less so. I see comments of people saying they hated the GoT adaption, but lets face it, you’re one of the few. That series is HBO’s most successful TV show.
Now, I don’t believe in the least that Wheel of Time would be a good fit for HBO or probably any other premium channel. Not because I’m being biased or hate the series (I don’t), but because it’s not deserving of that platform. It doesn’t have explicit sexual scenes or very adult-like, mature descriptions (things like gory and bloody battles, cursing, etc). I don’t think I would say it would fit on a broadcast or local channel because they wouldn’t have the proper funding to run an extensive fantasy show like Wot. So, maybe it will get picked up by cable TV, doubtfully FX, but maybe another. Or, it could get a good Netflix or Hulu spot. Guess we’ll see.
You know the Wheel of Time would be a really great Animated Series. They should make a serious, adult rated, high quality Animated Series.
In terms of channeling and seeing flows, the author kind of misses the point on what will be hard to do. That is that men who channel can’t see if someone has seized the source, they feel it. Also, men and women can’t see each others flows, so how are you going to visually represent this divide in the fantasy world to the audience, who must be able to see both at some points. When you have a man and female in the same room both channeling and the characters are wondering if the other is holding the power, its easy when your reading as you are reading from one perspective but on film it will be more difficult.
I don’t have high hopes for the tv series, first of all, the first 3 books were decent, but the series really picked up after Rand goes to the Aiel Waste and the whole dynamic and feeling of series really changes. Even then you can tell Robert Jordan is still figuring out how he wants the one power to feel and function for the characters. The reason I think this is important to note is that the TV series says they will perform the Eye of the World, which is a classic adventure story, but perhaps one of the harder books to actually adapt to film with a large scale demographic in mind. We shall see.
I would love to see a WOT TV series but with 2 basic requests. First it needs to be at least a pg13 rating, out of the whole series there are minimal instances that would require an R rating (mainly regarding the Aiel and their views on nudity) unlike GoT where it would be impossible to do the series justice without an R rating. Secondly, follow the books and stay true the story line and the characters, it’s why people want to watch the series. You already have huge audience, you don’t need to take “artistic liscense”, there are millions of readers who want to see the world they read about brought to life. An example of buying the rights to a series and screwing it up like that was Legend of the Seeker (the sword of truth series). Great series, horrible writing for TV. The story has been written, it just needs to be ADAPTED, NOT CHANGED, for TV
I have a lot of hopes and fears about this project and have thought a lot about how so much “action” that takes place in the thoughts of the characters can be portrayed.
Begin at end, many years after then end and have Rand telling the story to Loial for his book. Have the other main characters telling their parts of the story and most definitely hire Michael Kramer and Kate Reading for narration.
I’m sure multiple people have pointed this out, but people who can channel can see a glow around other people who can also channel the same part of the True Source as them when the other person is channeling. So females can see the light of Saidar around other females when the other females channel and males the light of Saidin around other males when the other male is channeling.
I’m gonna nerd out here because for supposed “fans” of the series there seem to be a lot of people here that have no idea how channeling works in the books. Women who can channel see a glow around the heads of other women who are embracing the source, and that glow is stronger the more power the woman is channeling. They can also see the flows that other women channel. Men who can channel cannot see a glow around men or women embracing the source, but can feel a tingle in their skin if men or women near them are embracing the source, but they CAN SEE the FLOWS of male channeling. Flows of the opposite gender are always invisible.
@132 – Men’s skin tingling only happens when women are embracing the source, not men. Men can sense a feeling of threat coming from men channeling. There is no glow, as you said, but their skin doesn’t tingle. You’re correct men can see the flows woven by saidin (if the flows are not inverted anyway). How the show will visually depict men sensing other men embracing the source I have no idea. How do you visualize ‘threat’? Perhaps a sound effect instead rather than visual.
I am concerned. Can Rafe Judkins pull it off? Sorry to any I offend but Agents of Shield is not the type of quality show that gives me confidence for doing Jordan’s masterpiece right. I was not a fantasy fan before picking up Eye of the World at a library sale, almost quit at the prologue. But once I started the main story with Rand and Tam on the road, then the cloaked rider behind them, I read until 5:00 the next morning. Most fantasy is not as well written as Jordan. There are a few I’ve read since, that pass but Jordan is still the best I’ve read.
The key I believe is making sure that the well written novel maintains it’s quality transitioning into a real life series. Quality screenwriters for adaptation, quality actors and yes quality director and producer. A good actor can only do so much with a bad plot or script, but that part is pretty much taken care of. Jordan’s writing is top notch. The screenwriter and director just has to make sure that they don’t cut the wrong scenes from the story, and make sure the actors are catching the right feel. The director/producer has to find a way to match the locations to Jordan’s description, which he painted so well that they felt almost like characters themselves.
It’s a tough order to fill, but if it is done well, there is a story here that will be capture many non-readers. I hope that they can pull it off.
Hi Leigh!
:: wags tail::
Well. I’m setting up on a hill in the Borderlands and am firmly convinced the Blight is spreading. Lots of sticky sweet rot. Sketchy bugs. Sketchy monsters. Door to door salesmen.
End of days.
Timing is everything with the series. Hopefully things work out and the writers keep the faith and the casting doesn’t go completely emo.
Most importantly, I hope folks do not make comparisons to GoT…. Unless it is about the nudity in the spanking, bath, sweat tent, hoop ceremonies, and prancing around in the buff.
Have to draw the line somewheres.
Woof™.
Be afraid, be very afraid.
I expect we will unfortunately see a number of necessary changes happen with the TV series. The WOT book cast is just too large for even a TV series otherwise. This is also a budgeting issue. Each character brought into the TV show is another actor that must be paid. The WOT book series also has entirely too many plotlines for a TV series to do well on a seasonal basis.
If the TV producers and writers don’t make the right calls, this series will crash like the Shannara Chronicles and Sword of Truth series did.
A suggestion for a way to show when a female is channeling and she has the glow in the presence of another female, the flows could be as air flowing like threads and weaving a pattern. Air is invisible, but to another female she would be able to see the threads of air, where all others could not. Almost the same effect as you see when heat waves rise from hot pavement or mirages created on the desert sand.
@84 The founder of the Jesuits is Ignatius of Loyola. The founder of the Whitecloaks, according to this wiki (it’s been too long since I’ve read the books) is Lothair Mantelar, who the wiki speculates is named similarly to Martin Luther (don’t know about that). You’re mistaken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Loyola
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Lothair_Mantelar
Hey guys I’m black and a wot fan as well, i see those who know the story knows the whitecloaks play a very important role in this series and it shouldn’t be excluded because of our current social turmoil we hav witness plenty of movies with racial plots and we’re grown enough to know it’s apart of the movie telling the story…my hopes for this series to become successful is high…for I have told countless people who are Lord of the rings fans that even though I enjoyed it very much it still can’t touch the wheel of Time.
At first I thought that translucent weaves would be good but some of the high level weaves would get lost in the blur and those are meant to be incredibly beautiful. It would make sense to have Sadin a light/plale version and Sadir a tinted/dark version, but the way a channeler reaches for both shows that even if they look similar, they behave differently. Sadin must be submitted to; Sadir must be controlled. They would not be able to copy Star Wars or Dr. Strange because both of them are mostly about waving your arms around to make things happen. Star Wars uses telekinesis to push/pull things and telepathy to read/control minds but their are no subtleties in the movies. Dr. Strange was amazing when showing the effects of magic especially in portals and reversing time but you don’t see the complex workings so the only way to tell who is stronger is by seeing who can hit the hardest and bludgeon their enemy to submission.
Figuring out how to show perspective is easy. The books already start each chapter with a title card symbol so you know whos’ story you will be following. In the show they can just start each episode in a similar way. There are different ways to do it but keeping it simple is always good.
It wouldn’t be hard to show the effects of Perrins’ senses heightening or being able to follow sent trails. The hard part about that would be the mental communication between wolves and later being able to organize attacks. But with hope that is a problem several years and seasons in the future.
A lot of people are worried about the White Cloaks looking like the KKK but a much more likely situation is having them look like nazis. The KKK has tried to take a back seat to power through history but they more often sit behind the politicians; their goal is not for people to convert to their way of thinking, it is based off of your appearace. Nazis tried to use eugenics to cleanse the population and expand the German empire. With that said, when I was reading the books, I saw them as Inquisitors from the Spanish inquisition but now I see them more like the what a medieval Taliban might look like. The Whitecloaks will take anyone and everyone who is willing to follow their way of thinking; you can even have family members who are Aes Sedai as long as you cut all ties with them. The Whitecloaks are extremist but not really racist. (really hoping my computer doesn’t get put on some watch list for all the stuff in the this paragraph)
My biggest worry is that they will try to make it too much like game of thrones. A huge part of the story is how the characters are forced to learn to become more callused and the awkwardness of love in all its ways. I’ll be willing to accept that most things won’t look or sound the way I imagined them but the important thing is that they take their time and get the spirit of the series right.
I think the guy who played Dickon Tarly in GOT would be a great Rand Al’Thor, dude is apparently 6 foot 5.
if they handle weaving saidar and saidin like the effects in Doctor Strange, it could be done very well. DS already sounds very similar to WOT in terms of references to strength, rivers, riverbanks, “ter’angreal” type relics, etc. I wonder if RJ was a reader of DS back in the day.
I’ve had an idea for how the channeling could be done for a while now. Maybe just have it invisible for the majority of the time (like when you’re looking from the point of view of non-channeling characters), but when you do want to show it, give the entire picture a slightly-coloured (blue for women, red for men?) and dream-like filter (like when Frodo wears the Ring) and then show the strands and flows of woven energy in the air doing their thing. I think it could work.
148, I’d go less for the “color” and more for the “nature” of the weaving you show(as that is the kind of description used in the books themselves), and mixing in the “taint” would probably be important as well.
I’ve just got to the point in the post about channelling, and the example that was quoted. Rather than using wind tunnels as the author is begging not to be used, all the cinematographer has to do is indicate a glow around the character(s), and the WOT readers, at least, will understand what that is referring to, and any others will no doubt grasp the significance quickly. It definitely will take a good team to bring this to life in a way that is true (enough) for the fans while being a starting point for new fans.
One thing you made a mistake on is the ‘vogueing’ to indicate channelling. This would be critical as it describes it in the books. It even says most aes sedai trained in the white tower couldn’t weave spells unless they used the hand gestues. Also it clearly states that aes sedai could see weave if they concentrated
I’ve got a better excuse for never wanting to see WoT on any screen. The Sword of Truth novels were COMPLETELY mangled on the small screen
Almost from episode one the SoT story, characters and general feel of the novels were COMPLETELY thrown out. If they can keep from doing that it would be great, but these doltish directors and writers can’t keep from taking too many liberties with the stories.
Here is my biggest fear with WOT turning into a television series. The books themselves take place over a roughly 2 1/2 year period. If they decide they are going to do fourteen seasons of WOT to milk it out, they’ll lose the youth and the fast approaching aspect of Tarmon Gaidon (I hope I spelled that correctly, I haven’t reread the books lately). The way this series screams to be done is like a Spanish Novella. Storyboard the entire thing, get the right cast, and then film it. Have it all in the can. I can’t imagine an American studio taking this kind of risk, for as has been stated, they can get this think horribly wrong and lose the built in fans that are drooling for this thing (I being one of those), but that’s how it should be done. I think they can get with Harriet and smooth some of the plot lines at the end they way Mr. Jordan wanted them to end (I really think Eqwene should have solidified her deal with the other channelers, both Sea Folk and Aiel before the end), but that’s just me. There is an opportunity here, and even if they film it as fourteen distinct “seasons”, they should film it all over a roughly 5 year period to stay true to the books. They can just release it over fourteen seasons if they wish.
In any case, here’s hoping they think this thing through properly.
Here’s something a LOT of people don’t seem to understand with adaptations
When hearing that their favorite series/book will be adapted for a movie/tv series, many people want a faithful page for page recreation of the book/books. What people seem to no understand is that this is literally impossible 99.999% of the time. Some things written in books just DO NOT translate to a visual medium the way they are. What is important to be kept is the characters, the tone, the plot, and the heart of the series. Concessions HAVE to be made in some area, and I think more people need to learn to accept this.
154, oh, a lot understand it, but either hate it, because of the changes they will make being bad, namely losing the tone, plot, and the heart of the series, or because they’re happy with what they have, and don’t need to have it spoiled by reality.
Of course, the Game of Thrones situation is a bit unique, but people hate that too.
The real question is: what special effects will they use to make any of the female characters likable? Especially Nynaeve. I know they are supposed to be complex, but they really just come off as fascist snobs that hate everyone.
The parts I enjoy most in WoT are actually the ones written in italic. Thus, my biggest concern is how they will convey the characters thoughts in a way that doesn’t disturb the flow of the action. Most of the humor takes place silently within the characters head, so if the screenwriters decide to leave it out, we will be deprived of much of our connection with the characters and the humor. On the other hand, it might be disturbing if every thought is represented by the voice of the POV wrapped in exaggerated echo or some other audio-effect to differentiate it from normal dialogue. The issue with the channeling is piece of cake compared to this, imo. I do hope they find a decent way of dealing with this.
I do not agree with those who say there is no sex/violence in WoT. There is, and it is sometimes very harsh and brutal,even (especially the violence). It is just that it is not glorified as in Martin’s work.
I’d like to address an issue that I’ve not seen discussed in the comments: how are the famous lines “The wheel of time turns, and ages come and pass…” and the prophecies and their like (especially those put at the beginning of books, which often set up the themes for them) going to be rendered? I think those are too evocative to be cut out or to be only spoken of by characters.
I hope they employ a narrator who voices them, possibly the same through all the seasons. It could be a woman, who turns out to be Nakomi in the last seasons.
Ok, maybe I am letting my fantasy run a bit here, but I’d like to see (rather, hear) something along those lines.
@158 paultaylors I would love it if they got Ron Perlman to do voiceover for the intro paragraph – in the same timbre as his “War. War never changes.” voiceover for the Fallout video game series.
I guess my biggest fear is my own mind. True it very well has a ton of potential to be very bad (or very good). However, with any book that has been adapted to film, I know I will find myself saying “that’s not how the book portrayed it”. I have found many instances where I thought the film version awful, while many others (who had never read the book/s) said it was amazing. I guess when you see it in your own head for so long and then you see it portrayed another way, it can be a major disappointment if only for that 1 reason. Now your talking about a series that so many fans love and adore! It will be impossible for this series to come out looking good for a vast majority who have read the books (if you are anything like me). All that said, I truly hope they can prove me wrong and that Harriet will have a lot of input in this and it will be at least good, if not great.
First off at least hopefully the showrunner, writers, and producers use Harriet’s input as much as possible and I think we will be ok. Second I really hope that the WoT TV series is not on one of the 4 major networks this would be horrible for the fans of the books. I’m hopeful that Sony give Netflix or Hulu or any freethinking network a chance to distribute this series. Also I really hope they keep it American and by that I just don’t want every character to have a British accent like another big fantasy series out there currently. Although the BBC would probably do an amazing job cause for some reason British TV is just better. I think the casting is going to be the most important thing to worry about. The nice thing about Jordan’s very descriptive writing is that the set and costume designers have basically just have to read the books and then they should know every color of a characters clothes to knowing what kind of wood to use on any set piece. I’m really excited that this is going to happen but like everyone else have watched what happened with “seeker” and other fantasy series turned into TV shows and to me The Wheel of Time is my favorite series of all time.
@161, Jeremy, my sweet summer child, you seriously believe designers are going to pay the slightest attention to the source material? Much less the writers!
To make clear. Your confusion over flows being visible or not comes likely from forgetting that men and women in wot have inherently different magic. Women can see the magic weaves they make. They weave the power guiding it to the desired outcome. Men don’t and can’t see the power but rather feel it and are described as bending the power to their bidding. Fortunately for any attempted adaptation most of the great works done in cannon by male casters have large visible outcomes as they mostly appeared late in the series in battles. The duels focused on subtle out of regular sight magic was all or half cast with the female half and so can be rendered canonical on screen. I foresee use of classic color coded threads for the weaves hopefully done by someone much more imaginative and artistic than me. The great joint works towards the end of the series need only show the holes left by the saidin in the saidar weaves
I think it would be a disaster for WoT to be a live action series. An animated feature would be far wiser; even that would require some 15-20 years of seasons to do it genuine justice. One of the reasons I got hooked on WoT at all was because of the degree of detail involved in the story, combined with the number of subplots, many of which interweave throughout. There’s simply so much STUFF that happens in each novel. Doing a live action show would require cutting out dramatic portions and cheapen the story. In all honesty, it’d be about like having converted Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings from book to movie. Once one reads the Potter books, the movies lose some of their flavor; Lord of the Rings could be annoying at times, even with only three books. I think a live action series would run a very high risk of a flop for the stuff they’d be compelled to cut.
Incidentally, trying to make Two Rivers people anything besides white would be a very bad idea. Realistically, one simply never finds a vigorous degree of racial mixing that way in real life, especially rural areas. As I have never seen or heard these people depicted as anything besides white, trying to make them “diverse” would be a shameful portrayal of the vision Jordan created. Besides which, the overall set of stories depict so many different racial groups in various different places that someone who’s determined to find “diversity” under every rock need only keep reading.
@164 John Flaherty.
First, books and film/tv are completely different mediums. You are conflating 1 book per season, at the very least, when that would be an impossible undertaking for many reasons. TV/film is a visual medium. What takes pages and pages to describe cities/cultures/people can take seconds in a film or tv show.
Second, there’s no way a casual viewer will be able to keep track of all of the characters if every single plot line is explored as deeply as they are in the books. People would get confused very easily. And, honestly, I don’t think they should have every single plot thread in the show. It’s not cheapening the story by cutting out huge swaths of the books. It’s streamlining it to make it more palatable to the casual viewer. I envision many people/subplots/even cultures completely taken out of the show. This would include many of the nobles and Aes Sedai that have almost no bearing on the main plot. This would also include removing a number of the nations, such as Kandor and Arafel, as an example. Neither of these nations have any real role on the main plot/main characters, and are not necessary for the story.
What the producers/writers of the show need to focus on is the 5 Emond’s Fielders, and the characters that directly interact with them. This will cut down dramatically a number of subplots that are unnecessary. I see the show lasting for 7-8 seasons, with 10-12 episodes per season.
Third, animation, while enjoyable to a many people worldwide, and may in fact do a better job of re-creating WoT in a visual medium, will not garner the kind of attention and indeed money that a live action series will get. Sony and Amazon want something on the level of Game of Thrones, not Akira or other animated show.
I can’t wait, almost done re-reading the series again, my visuals have changed a lot over the years with what movies have shown, I could see something like the Harry Potter movies, where sometimes you just see a flash from a block, or a wave of energy moving, then other times it’s full on visuals.
I’m really confused. Is there going to be a tv series?
They should have given it to the Japanese to produce and animate.
Power battles would have been frantically kinetic, cut to two men wondering why there were two women just gritting their teeth and sweating at each other…